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[Narr]

Mentioned in another thread by someone after I had said FFVII was crap:

Also, FFVII trash? Sorry, but I can't see where you get that. FFVI was trash. Sorry, but at least FFVII's plot didn't fall apart half-way through and have a villian that had no development or motivation. Also, FFVII is revolutionary to the industry. It's a classic.

Name one good thing about FFVII.  I will attack it from every angle I possibly can.

If you like the battle system, we've been there, done that.  Those of us that started on the SNES Final Fantasies had already played a good 60+ hours of the FF battle system with the two SNES ones.  I'm not saying the battle system in and of itself is flawed; I simply mean to point out it's not revolutionary.

The Materia System, you say?  That was something you liked?  I personally hated it with a passion. It sucked all individuality out of each character.  They were no longer different people in battle- they were just the Materia they had equipped.  (FF8's Guardian Forces also suffered the problem but to the umpth degree.  FF10 sort of did, but only after vast extended play.  At least characters had different uses BEFORE you uberized everyone.)  And, then you've got Limit Breaks.  First off, FF6 had limit breaks, but they were very random and uncontrolabe.  Secondly, they took 5 million years to build up, just for one, silly super attack.  It didn't alter gameplay.

The story was also nothing new.  It's almost a carbon copy of the previous Final Fantasy title.  You start out with the evil "Empire", Shinra, basically trying to take over the world, that creates Super Soliders, one of whom takes over the role as main enemy in the title.  Every character in the entire game was a boring cliché, and might I add, poorly designed conceptually.  "Hey, let's make a guy with super saiyan hair use a sword 5 times bigger than anything reasonable!  That should be cool.  And then let's steal Alucard from Castlevania, and give him a katana that's 5 times bigger than anything that could possibly be used in real life.  Winner!"  The only character that interested me was Cid.  Barret was just Mr. T with a gun arm, Tifa was the ditsy, busty chick, Aeris was the mysterious, quiet girl with uper mysterious holy powers.  Cait Sith was also kind of interesting, but he was just comic relief, and not really anything substantial therefore.  Cloud, THE MAIN CHARACTER, was a whiny pussy.  I don't know about you, but if I'm going to control a guy for 70 hours, I don't want him to be a whiny pussy.  The main villian HAD NO MOTIVATION, if you ask me.  "Oh, I want to purge the world of evil!"  Well, seeing as he displays literally no emotion the entire game, it's silly.  Hojo was a true villain, but he wasn't explored in-depth enough.  Seriously, Sephiroth is lame and I never did understand the fandom that's surrounded him.

The graphics, for it's time, WERE STILL BAD.  The FMV sequences were pretty elite for it's time, but the rest of the game was appalling.  I remember the first time I played it and saw Cloud's huge Popeye arms, I said "Wait, that's his arms?  You gotta be joking me."  Nowadays, the game causes you to want to gouge out your eyes.  Therefore, it's not timeless.  I can still play my sprite-based FF games.

Music?  Well, okay.  I have no problem admitting the music was phenominal, as are most FF games.  It's one of it's few redeeming qualities.

Was the game revolutionary?  Yes.  Reason being it was for a system that tons of people here in the United States and was many people's first exposure to RPGs.  There were TONS of better RPGs that cameout before FF7, but a lot of people don't even know about them.  "Eww, sprites.  The graphics are 'bad.'  I don't want to play that!"

I honestly believe the VAST majority of people that really like FF7 do so because they suffer from first RPG syndrome.  I admit, I recognize a lot of flaws in my first RPG that I completed (Dragon Quest 4, for the record), and I love the game to bits and pieces.

[Kai]

on the story: Let's face it: EVERY Japanese RPG has a piss poor story. Scientific fact.

[Bastardous Bassist]

And my friend wonders why I don't play Japanese RPGs.  More on topic, I never really got into any of the Final Fantasies.

[Kirbo]

You sir, are on.

I'm going to go in order of how wrong you are.

1. Graphics:
Admittedly, the characters were blocky, ugly things with no mouths, but, and this is a huge but, look at every backround and environment in the game (save the overworld map), all highly detailed, realistic places. Lakes sparkle, caves are dark and dingy, every dungeon is just sublime in its appearence. For those days it looked fantastic.

2. Battle System:
The same thing as previous FF's, yes, but it works, why fuck with a formula. The basic battle system masks surprising depth, the only way to mess with it is level boosting too much. Also, Limit Breaks don't come too often, once you hit the level 4 limit breaks (or stay with level 3 depending on the character) they take quite a lot of damage to go up much.

3. Materia:
Don't want characters to be the same? Then use different materia. Trust me, you can, I've beaten the game many times. If you think three identical characters can beat Emerald without the Underwater materia, you're either wrong, or fucking lucky. Ruby also requires some real strategy.

4. Characters

Cloud, THE MAIN CHARACTER, was a whiny pussy. I don't know about you, but if I'm going to control a guy for 70 hours, I don't want him to be a whiny pussy.

Question...do you mean Tidus, and you've confused FFVII with FFX? Tidus cried when his dad didn't hug him, Cloud SAVED THE FUCKING WORLD FROM A GIANT METEOR. Honestly, Cloud is a bad ass, sure he cares about things, but that makes him feel real. He's got plenty of motivation, the burning of his villiage, the killing of his friend, the promise he made to Tifa, and so on (not throwing in a major spoiler too). Barret is Mr. T with a gunarm? Oh...right, I forgot the Episode of The A-Team where B.A takes on the largest corporation in the world in order to avenge his wife, protect his daughter, and save the lifestream from being used up. That was a good one. Tifa is the ditzy busty chick......Uh...where was she ditzy? Where? Oh, nowhere. Right. Tifa has the same reason to fight as Cloud, and all the while she has to deny her feeling for him. Aeirth was, more or less what you said, only with some real personality. In only one disc you get a great sense of how wonderful and caring a person she is. The rest I'll leave, but yes...Cid rules. Sephiroth wants what is rightfully his in his mind. He should inherate the earth, he has the means to do so, so best get the fuck out the way. He's not deep, he's just fucked up, insane and completly badass. A 7 ft Katana? Fuck yes.

5. Story
ALL RPG'S ARE CLICHED!
This one is no exception, however it helps that the game is dark, well-written and as I showed above, the characters are great. That's what drives the story. Not much else to say.

Narr, this is your opinion, you have your right to it, but I'm just throwing this out, it's horrible.

FFVII is fantastic, now, then, and forever.

[Kai]

Kefka is still way crazier than Sephiroth.

[SuperRad]

FFVII was retarded. I never liked it, even when it was in the hands of every snotnosed kid with a PSX.

A great game that came out right before it was Wild ARMS, the first good rpg for PlayStation. Too bad it was overshadowed by a series that was already known. It has sprite game play, but the battles were in 3D, all the movies were exquisitely drawn anime, and the story line was PHENOMENAL! The antagonists mutinied against their master because they didn't want to destroy the planet, they wanted to save it.

Check out that series if you want a good rpg series.


PS - The remake was mediocre at best, so see if you can snag an original disk. Or download it, I don't care.

[Kai]

I think my friend has a Wild Arms game. I'm sorry, but we were just laughing out of cheesiness.

[Kirbo]

My favorite PS1 rpg is the port of Lunar: Eternal Blue. Cost me a freaking arm and a leg.

[edcho7000]

it sounds to me like the person who started this post does indeed like the game, but finds ff7 overated in the sense that it is often elevated in rpg lore as the greatest game ever.  in reality it's a great game among other great games in the series.  my personal favorite is 9, even though the battle system was super simple, i just enjoyed the characters so much.

[Kirbo]

Augh, 9 was soooo good.

I love it when games don't take themselve super seriously, and 9, while serious, was still light-hearted. It's my favorite FF (nuding out 3). Again, the battle system masks some real depth, particularly for harder fights (Necron can be devestating if you don't have the right abilities, and Ozma is the hardest RPG battle I've ever fought).

Isn't Vivi the best?

[Something Witty]

You know why people say it's revoloutionary? Because the FF Games weren't big then the SNES was out. So the first taste a lot of people got of FF was FFVII.

It doesn't suck, you tool. You don't like it, say "I don't like it." Don't say it's "trash."

I don't know about you, but if my first taste of Final Fantasy was FFVII, I'd splooge all over it too.

[mberan42]

I don't know about you, but if my first taste of Final Fantasy was FFVII, I'd splooge all over it too.

My first taste of Final Fantasy was FFI for the NES, and I still "splooge all over [VII]".

[Chesire Cat]

FFVII was amazing for its cinematic feel an bigger than life storyline.  It was the first one to really give you that epic feel.  Im sure there has been 'better' FF's since then, but none that were as big of a step up as FFVII was to FFVI or any other RPGs at the time.  

Also, with a huge storyline and varied chars, shown in crisp 3D(at the time) with great Cinematics, it was very easy to empathise with the characters you were playing or encountering.  Something very hard to do with sprites that vaguely look like anything.

FFVII might not be the most fun or intuitive or ave the best story of any RPG ever, but it has huge character recognition, and is cemented in video game lore in part to the marketing blitz surrounding its release.  Not just to gamers, but to popculture in its entirety at the time.  It was on the tips of everyones tongue, people wanted to know this game, and to play this game.  And the fact that it lived up to the hype!  Oh man, how many times have you been disappointed with something hyped.  A game(or movie for that matter) actually living up to the hype is not as common as you may think think.  

That is why it's the best, for its significance in the series, the genre, and video gaming as a whole.  The immense amount of nostalgic power this game is infused with and the fact that is was the last great step up in RPGing are what make it so great.

Kefka is still way crazier than Sephiroth.

And you! Put your hand up if you want to talk

[edcho7000]

yeah, i think the graphics of ff7 really helped its popularity.  I remember playing ff6(3) after 7 came out and my friend got all excited but when he saw the screenshots thought the graphics sucked(which are really good for SNES) and had no interest in playing it, even though he liked ff7.  that's just how some people are

and yes, vivi is definately the best character in ff9, and the main character was so refreshing after squal and cloud.

[Narr]

You sir, are on.

I'm going to go in order of how wrong you are.

1. Graphics:
Admittedly, the characters were blocky, ugly things with no mouths, but, and this is a huge but, look at every backround and environment in the game (save the overworld map), all highly detailed, realistic places. Lakes sparkle, caves are dark and dingy, every dungeon is just sublime in its appearence. For those days it looked fantastic.

Prerendered backgrounds make baby Jesus cry.  I love running into something and not understanding why my character is stuck.  It makes me feel good inside.

2. Battle System:
The same thing as previous FF's, yes, but it works, why fuck with a formula. The basic battle system masks surprising depth, the only way to mess with it is level boosting too much. Also, Limit Breaks don't come too often, once you hit the level 4 limit breaks (or stay with level 3 depending on the character) they take quite a lot of damage to go up much.

That was my POINT.  When people say it was new and innovative, they were very wrong, and Limit Breaks came so rarely, that it didn't alter the way you played the game.  I'm not saying it was BAD.  I'm just saying it cannot be hailed and new and innovative, and for someone like me who'd spent 25 hours beating FF4 and another 40 or so beating FF6, the formula didn't bring enough new to the table to keep me overly interesting in the fights.

3. Materia:
Don't want characters to be the same? Then use different materia. Trust me, you can, I've beaten the game many times. If you think three identical characters can beat Emerald without the Underwater materia, you're either wrong, or fucking lucky. Ruby also requires some real strategy.

What I mean, is that all I had to do was swap the Materia I had on one character with the Materia I had on another character and then they were exactly the same as the other person just was.  I like it when my characters have different purposes other than what I've created for them, something UNIQUE about them that only they can do.   All the previous FF games did that well.

4. Characters

Cloud, THE MAIN CHARACTER, was a whiny pussy. I don't know about you, but if I'm going to control a guy for 70 hours, I don't want him to be a whiny pussy.

Question...do you mean Tidus, and you've confused FFVII with FFX? Tidus cried when his dad didn't hug him, Cloud SAVED THE FUCKING WORLD FROM A GIANT METEOR. Honestly, Cloud is a bad ass, sure he cares about things, but that makes him feel real. He's got plenty of motivation, the burning of his villiage, the killing of his friend, the promise he made to Tifa, and so on (not throwing in a major spoiler too). Barret is Mr. T with a gunarm? Oh...right, I forgot the Episode of The A-Team where B.A takes on the largest corporation in the world in order to avenge his wife, protect his daughter, and save the lifestream from being used up. That was a good one. Tifa is the ditzy busty chick......Uh...where was she ditzy? Where? Oh, nowhere. Right. Tifa has the same reason to fight as Cloud, and all the while she has to deny her feeling for him. Aeirth was, more or less what you said, only with some real personality. In only one disc you get a great sense of how wonderful and caring a person she is. The rest I'll leave, but yes...Cid rules. Sephiroth wants what is rightfully his in his mind. He should inherate the earth, he has the means to do so, so best get the fuck out the way. He's not deep, he's just fucked up, insane and completly badass. A 7 ft Katana? Fuck yes.

I didn't say I liked Tidus, first off.

As for Cloud, he was the definition of emo.  "Oh, boo hoo, I don't know what I am, I am going to go slit my wrists."  That wouldn't have surprised me.  He has NO personality.  It was entirely fabricated.  And the "bad-ass" part of him, doesn't fit.  All his responses where he shows bravado are incredibly childish, and out of character.  A lot of that has to do with translation problems, but I digress.  Cloud is just kind of there, and his biggest motivation is that he wants to show his penis is larger than Sephiroth's.

And Sephiroth... I don't think he was ANY of those things.  He was a genetically engineered super soldier that had no desire of his own that wasn't programmed, and never displays a sense of emotion throughout the story.  He wasn't "cold-hearted," he was just a robot.

5. Story
ALL RPG'S ARE CLICHED!
This one is no exception, however it helps that the game is dark, well-written and as I showed above, the characters are great. That's what drives the story. Not much else to say.

Well-written?  O_o  It was translated by a team that barely spoke proper English.  Giving the black guy a slang accent does not make for good writing.  Also, making one of the most important character in revealing the plot a SECRET CHARACTER (that being Vincent) is also not a good writing manuever.

Narr, this is your opinion, you have your right to it, but I'm just throwing this out, it's horrible.

FFVII is fantastic, now, then, and forever.

Funny, that's pretty much exactly how I feel about FFVII's vaunted "Best RPG ever" status it's seemed to have garnered.

   
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:16 am    Post subject:
FFVII was amazing for its cinematic feel an bigger than life storyline. It was the first one to really give you that epic feel. Im sure there has been 'better' FF's since then, but none that were as big of a step up as FFVII was to FFVI or any other RPGs at the time.

If by "step up," you mean "went to 3d," then you're correct.  However, there is not a single part of FF7 that wasn't better in FF6.  The translation was better for the Super Nintendo game.  The fact your characters were unique in battle is something that FF7 needed desperately.  Characters were dull compared to 6, if you ask me.  (Setzer and Strago > you.)  The vast amount of sidequests were better integrated in FF6 than in 7 (that is an opinion, I'll admit.  FF7 had some interesting side games.)

Also, with a huge storyline and varied chars, shown in crisp 3D(at the time) with great Cinematics, it was very easy to empathise with the characters you were playing or encountering. Something very hard to do with sprites that vaguely look like anything.

Maybe I had a bit more imagination than most, but that was never really a problem with me.  Also, there has been other RPGs done in sprites where you empathize with the characters a great deal.  (Chrono Trigger being my prime example.)

FFVII might not be the most fun or intuitive or ave the best story of any RPG ever, but it has huge character recognition, and is cemented in video game lore in part to the marketing blitz surrounding its release. Not just to gamers, but to popculture in its entirety at the time. It was on the tips of everyones tongue, people wanted to know this game, and to play this game. And the fact that it lived up to the hype! Oh man, how many times have you been disappointed with something hyped. A game(or movie for that matter) actually living up to the hype is not as common as you may think think.

That is why it's the best, for its significance in the series, the genre, and video gaming as a whole. The immense amount of nostalgic power this game is infused with and the fact that is was the last great step up in RPGing are what make it so great.

It lived up to the hype?  =\  Most the hype was generated after it's release by rabid fanboys that hadn't played a RPG before.  To be honest, I don't even remember there being excessive amounts of hype before it came out.  I mean, I knew some people that were pretty excited, but I was just a little kid and was probably hooked on some SNES game at the time.

You know why people say it's revoloutionary? Because the FF Games weren't big then the SNES was out. So the first taste a lot of people got of FF was FFVII.

It doesn't suck, you tool. You don't like it, say "I don't like it." Don't say it's "trash."

I don't know about you, but if my first taste of Final Fantasy was FFVII, I'd splooge all over it too.

UrbanDictionary's definition of tool.

Pot calling the kettle black?

I think I'm going to stick with "trash" because that's what I think the game is.  I don't find very many redeeming things about it, and worst of all, the things that the majority of people like about the game, I think are horrible.  (Mostly, the characters.  Character concept is a huge thing with me, and the things liked about Cloud and Sephiroth are childish and trite, in my exceedingly unhumble opinion.)

One last thing for Kirbo---  Lunar: EB was pretty cool (especially the original Sega CD version... some of the changes made to the game don't make a lot of sense to me) and FF9 was the last good FF game.  I hope FF12 proves me wrong, because the guy in charge of it is the most talented guy Square has in their employ.

[Unosuke]

FFVIII annoys me for the sole fact that the final boss had no motivation for wanting to destroy all of existence

[Chesire Cat]

If by "step up," you mean "went to 3d," then you're correct.  

Thats exactly what I mean.  And with it came the switch from video games being 'kids stuff' to video games being a real form of entertainment.  And it was FFVII in its 3D that ushered in that change for the RPG genre.

Maybe I had a bit more imagination than most, but that was never really a problem with me.

Im playing a video game, I am not playing a game to imagine a world, I am playing a game to realise one.  If I wanted to imagine what I am doing, I'll read a book.

And a point to note, I dont think FFVII is the 'best' RPG, that goes to any game in the Elder Scrolls series, but it does get the 'greatest' RPG tag for what it stands for.

[jhocking]

As fun as it was at the time, I don't really remember much about FFVII.  I remember who the characters are, and that's about it.  That says a lot to me.

[Kirbo]

One last thing for Kirbo---  Lunar: EB was pretty cool (especially the original Sega CD version... some of the changes made to the game don't make a lot of sense to me) and FF9 was the last good FF game.  I hope FF12 proves me wrong, because the guy in charge of it is the most talented guy Square has in their employ.

Yeah, I'm rooting for 12, I really am, and I hear the battle system is decent, so as long as the story is good, I'm pretty happy. I never owned a Sega CD, sadly, so I kind of had to get the PS1 version of Lunar.

Also, FFXI is quite good, except there's not enough people playing anymore. WoW took them all. But FFX and X-2.....blah, Tidus and Yuna bore the hell out of me.

As for the arguements, well...lets agree to disagree, because I'm not going to sway you, you're not going to sway me.

[Switchblade]

HAs it ever occured to you that:

A) you might be wrong

B) people might disagree with you

C) IF somebody disagrees with you, you are unlikely to change their mind simply by being opinionated.

[Kirbo]

Me or Narr?

[mberan42]

questions

Blanket statement?

I hate blanket statements.

[Switchblade]

Me or Narr?

Works for damned near everyone, ever, myself included.

A friend and I were "discussing" Starcraft earlier. I dislike it because I don't like a game mechanic that allows you to "rush" - storm an enemy base within the first two or three minutes. I prefer to have at least five minutes of base-and-force-building going on before the first assault happens. For my tastes, too many Starcraft games are won almost instantly because you're facing some dude who's got a hotkey combination memorised that he starts into the instant the game starts I prefer a game where tactics counts more than just having memorised the most optimal build queue in your head.

My friend loves Starcraft, and when I aired my grievances, just began to reel off the counters to zergling rushes and the like... all of which involve having memorised an optimal hotkey combination.

He loves Starcraft, I don't. It quickly became obvious that, on this point at least, neither side was going to agree with, or pursuade, the other. In the end, I literally had to make cutting motions in the air with my hands and say "Yeah, okay, obviously neither of us is going to agree, so let's just stop this before one of us gets angry or upset, yeah?"

sometimes, you just have to agree to disagree, and accept that other people don't think like you do.

[That guy]

First, video games, like movies, music and cooking styles, are all relative.  If you dislike something that other people enjoy, you generally dislike it even more.  I love the movie The 13th Warrior, but I don't get crazy when someone says the movie sucks. (They are probably right)

Second, people forget the business aspect of the game.  I hate to be the guy all about money, but this game warrants it.  This was the first well marketed video game, ever.  And it is ALWAYS advantagous to be first rather than be better.  And they were first from an advertising stand point.  They caught everyone by surprise.  People had never seen a good ad for an RPG let alone a good ad for a video game.  The ads that they used were highly stylized and very effective.  The game was able to penetrate peoples ideas of what a video game was and what a system could do.  

After that all the game had to do was deliver, which it did.  The characters were deep enough to make you care about them.  They had enough back story to keep the game moving, and their side stories were entertaining enough to make you explore them.  The combat system was simple, yes.  But that doesn't mean that it wasn't fun.  Are we forgetting fun?  I sure haven't.  In the immortal words of Dr. Seuss,

"Did you ever milk
this kind of cow?
Well, we can do it.
We know how.

If you never did,
you should.
These things are fun
and fun is good."

Words to live by in my opinion. One other thing on the combat system.  The limit breaks are the most important thing when I played the game.  I used the characters based on their effectiveness of their breaks.  This is why Vincent, even though he was the coolest looking character in the game, was never in my party.

Another point of Sepheroth vs. Kefka.  At least Sepheroth had some depth to him.  All Kefka was, was a laugh and a fruity costume.  Not saying that Sepheroth didn't have some aspects of bicuriosity, but he was at least fearable.

The last boss was strange, I'll give you that.  The first one could be killed by one Kinghts of the Round Table.  Then the next one was a little harder, but not much of a challange if you preparred for it.  The weapons were really hard though, so that made up for it.  That brings up the side areas.  They had many things you could do to keep yourself entertained.  And chocobo racing, for nothing more that the song, was worth it.  

I'd like to say that this is at least interesting for people to talk about.  It's better then many other forums I've been on.  That being said, your points and opinions are valid, for you.  If you don't like it you are entitled to dislike it, but claiming that the game is bad for everyone makes you a hipster snob.

Don't be that guy.  No one likes that guy.

[Chesire Cat]

Well said!

[Qui Gon Zel]

Meh, I was going to respond to this until I saw the original poster say:

"Cait Sith was kind of interesting..." then he lost all credibility.

[nickyandthefuture]

This guy are sick.

[DavidGrohl]

Ummmm . . revolutionary good RPG?  Let me think here . . . ummm . .
  Chrono Trigger

And I do agree, I disliked FF 7, 8, X, and X-2 (though I haven't played all the eway through X-2 :\  ).

[Narr]

First, I find it really funny how upset some people are getting.  I admit, I'm going overboard with my bashing, although I think I've got pretty valid opinions on why I don't feel the game deserves the recognition it's recieved.  Calm down, guys.  I'm not out to hurt someone.  Just highlighting my own distaste for the game.

To everyone that's said something to the extent that one man's trash is another man's treasure, I am completely aware of that concept.  Go ahead and like the game!  I have no problem with that.  I will question your tastes, sure, but I bet a lot of people would stare at me funny for some of the games I really love.

@ Qui Gon Zel:  The concept of a giant cat puppet thing controlling a puppet in the government is, well, interesting.  That's what I meant.

[mberan42]

IM NOT UPSET!!1!

UR SO STUPID NARR FFVII IS THE BESTEST GAME EVER DON"T U KNOCK IT U JUST DON"T KNOW WHAT UR TALKING ABOUT HOW CAN U NOT LIKE IT DID U EVER PLAY IT?

hehe

[Kirbo]

Ummmm . . revolutionary good RPG?  Let me think here . . . ummm . .
  Phantasy Star

Sorry, your quote was broken. I fixed it.

[ElRodente]

switchblade is incredibly right

except for matters of extreme morailty, like, someone says it's ok to stab someone in the face and piss on their corpse


imposing your opinions on someone is something you should NEVER do, it just makes them hate you and makes you look like an ass

[Rubby]

First, I find it really funny how upset some people are getting.  I admit, I'm going overboard with my bashing, although I think I've got pretty valid opinions on why I don't feel the game deserves the recognition it's recieved.  Calm down, guys.  I'm not out to hurt someone.  Just highlighting my own distaste for the game.

But...but, you called this an argument thread.

[Valrus]

Don't be that guy.  No one likes that guy.

[Narr]

First, I find it really funny how upset some people are getting.  I admit, I'm going overboard with my bashing, although I think I've got pretty valid opinions on why I don't feel the game deserves the recognition it's recieved.  Calm down, guys.  I'm not out to hurt someone.  Just highlighting my own distaste for the game.

But...but, you called this an argument thread.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=argument

I'm going with definition 1.

[Xymon]

Ummmm . . revolutionary good RPG?  Let me think here . . . ummm . .
  Mother 2 (Earthbound)

.

You were close but not quite there. Checkmate.

[Kirbo]

Haha, oh you are cute, comparing Mother 2 to Phantasy Star. Oh my, that's a good one.

Checkmate? You only have a pawn.

[est]

arguing about something as personal-preference based as video games is pretty stupid