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Author Topic: Shredi Knights unite!  (Read 12110 times)

bucky_2300

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« on: 30 Jan 2006, 10:51 »

Does Yngwie Malmsteen like doughnuts? What did he unleash upon an unsuspecting airline passenger? Do you own a Vai album other than Passion and Warfare? At least one G3 DVD? Does Jason Becker make you hot in the pants?

If you answered yes/correctly to at least three of the above questions, you may be qualified to be a Shredi Knight. Our weapon of choice has six strings, a fast neck, and most likely a locking trem. We melt picks on a regular basis, and can unleash sound waves so quickly that they can remove flesh from the face of anyone unfortunate enough to be passing by,



So join us, the Shredi Knights! Because nothing is sexier than someone that sits alone in their room playing as fast as humanly possible for hours on end.

-------------------

I think that Vai's latest album was a bit of a letdown,overall. Building the Church and Freak Show Excess were great, but the sound was a bit cold overall.It sounds better live.
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Thrillho

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« Reply #1 on: 30 Jan 2006, 14:16 »

Fuck shred.
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« Reply #2 on: 30 Jan 2006, 14:47 »

ah, shred is cool, but i'm nowhere near good enough to do it.
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« Reply #3 on: 30 Jan 2006, 16:26 »

Quote from: DynamiteKid
Fuck shred.


Yeah, because appreciating talented musicianship is totally dumb. [/sarcasm]

Seriously though, while I can appreciate the occasional shredding, I much prefer if the guitar wizardry stays within the boundaries of taste. Hence why I prefer more restrained virtuosos such as John Petrucci, Joe Satriani, and Eric Johnson to nonstop shred maniacs like Becker or Malmsteen.

And on the newest Vai album, I have to agree, it just didn't impress me until I saw him perform Building the Church on the G3 '05 DVD, which blew my MIND.
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La Creme

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« Reply #4 on: 30 Jan 2006, 16:48 »

The correct thing to say is "fuck bad shred". Just like it is generally lame to totally put down anything in music, not all thrash is bad. Show-offy thrash like Vai, Malmsteen, and Satriani, is good stuff if taken with a grain of salt for its cheesiness factor. Thrash elements are incorperated into most competant rock guitarists' skills. Sometimes you have to play fast, and nothing helps better there than a knowledge of thrash.

No, the correct thing to say is "Fuck you, you close-minded twat."

= )
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bucky_2300

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« Reply #5 on: 30 Jan 2006, 17:55 »

Quote from: Storm Rider
Yeah, because appreciating talented musicianship is totally dumb. [/sarcasm]

Seriously though, while I can appreciate the occasional shredding, I much prefer if the guitar wizardry stays within the boundaries of taste. Hence why I prefer more restrained virtuosos such as John Petrucci, Joe Satriani, and Eric Johnson to nonstop shred maniacs like Becker or Malmsteen.

And on the newest Vai album, I have to agree, it just didn't impress me until I saw him perform Building the Church on the G3 '05 DVD, which blew my MIND.


G3 '05 is just a great DVD in general. Petrucci's performance was amazing, and the jam still entrances me no matter how many times I watch it.

I can't take too much Malmsteen at a time either - it does get wearing, but air guitaring to Far Beyond the Sun and Evil Eye is as fun as hell.

^ (LaCreme) Have you seen the faces Vai makes while he plays guitar? Those add a good 5% to the cheese-factor. There is something kind of endearing about them though...
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« Reply #6 on: 30 Jan 2006, 18:40 »

It's funny, because even though I enjoy Petrucci's playing more than Vai's or even Satriani's, I found his performance to be the least interesting on the DVD. I still absolutely love his music, but I wish he'd be a little more theatric. Or at least do a little improvisation.

Vai's performance was absolutely amazing. That interplay he did with Sheehan during The Audience is Listening? I skipped back and watched that FOUR TIMES before even moving on to the next song, which, as mentioned before totally floored me. And then Satriani busted out War, which is one of my all-time favorite Satch songs.

In short, the only regret I have about that show was that Petrucci didn't play Jaws of Life, which is my favorite song off Suspended Animation. I just really hope he records a second solo album before too long. Perhaps while Dream Theater is negotiating a new contract...
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« Reply #7 on: 30 Jan 2006, 19:28 »

Wait, what? Petrucci is part of G3? My friend saw them with Yngwie...
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« Reply #8 on: 30 Jan 2006, 19:29 »

The third guitarist rotates every year depending on who's recording/touring at the time. Petrucci's been there 3 times (including '05), Fripp and Eric Johnson twice each, Malmsteen once, and some others I've forgotten.
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« Reply #9 on: 30 Jan 2006, 19:32 »

Holy shit, I didn't know they ever did it with frip. Jesus fucking christs. Which CD/DVD is recorded with him?
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« Reply #10 on: 30 Jan 2006, 19:33 »

He was in their early years, I think before they started recording the concerts. I believe he was in '99 and '02. I'll do a quick search on amazon.
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bucky_2300

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« Reply #11 on: 31 Jan 2006, 08:20 »

There are actually several G3 performances that you can't get on DVD/VHS, I believe, and I think that the Robert Fripp is one of them. The ones I know of that are available are the one with Eric Johnstone, G3 '03, G3'05, and '04, I think.

As for Petrucci's lack of theatrics...I'll just copy/paste my rant from another forum, ;)



To me, he just comes across as a shyer person than Satriani or Vai (I'm not even going to bother mentioning Malmsteen....) In the commentary on the soundcheck on the G3 Live in Tokyo DVD, there were often long pauses on his commentary track, and he seemed to be a quieter person than the other two, who just wouldn't shut up. Another thing that seemed to show that he was a quieter person was that when Steve hauled out the rubber chicken at the end of the soundcheck (it's worth buying the DVD just for that scene) John laughed and made comments, but they seemed to be much more reserved than what he was actually thinking.
I think that he is more of an introverted person, and that that comes through in his stage antics, or lack thereof.

EDIT: But hey, I'm an actor, and analysing people is part of my job. I might just be blowing things up a bit.

-----------------------------------


In my experience, people that are quieter in social situations are almost always less exuberant and big onstage. In fact, after two acting tours, three acting workshops, and the first four months of a high school Performing and Visual Arts course in drama, I can think of one person who was socially quiet and big onstage.

And since Mike Portnoy is his drummer, I would think (or at least hope) that he was comfortable enough with him to talk into a microphone. But on the spot, all alone, he seemed to be much quieter. And that makes sense, because if you think about it, there's no one to support or to fill dead spots in the commentary.

This is, however, not to say that he doesn't enjoy being onstage. On the G3 DVD, especially on the jam, he was smiling a lot and obviously having a great time. However, I think that this proves what I said above about him being more relaxed when he was someone else to be with. During most of his solo performance, when he looked at the audience, he looked at what would have been a spot above the heads of the people all the way up in the mezzanine. I think that he was trying his utmost to not let the audience intimidate him. And by all means, he did an absolutely incredible job. Glasgow Kiss and Damage Control were flawless.

During the jam, he was much more "outgoing," and appeared to be much more relaxed, which was in my opinion because Steve and Joe were up there as well.

...and that concludes bucky's second installment of the "Let's Overanalyse a Performer" series.
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Thrillho

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« Reply #12 on: 31 Jan 2006, 08:23 »

Quote from: Storm Rider
Quote from: DynamiteKid
Fuck shred.


Yeah, because appreciating talented musicianship is totally dumb. [/sarcasm]

Seriously though, while I can appreciate the occasional shredding, I much prefer if the guitar wizardry stays within the boundaries of taste. Hence why I prefer more restrained virtuosos such as John Petrucci, Joe Satriani, and Eric Johnson to nonstop shred maniacs like Becker or Malmsteen.


I don't see why the sarcasm was necessary when you essentially just said my opinion.

I think that 'shred' defines only sped-up scale exercises. Basically, wanking. Not playing, wanking. However, when someone like Satch shreds they put an actual melody into it, and that's when it becomes soloing and therefore - in my eyes - not shred.

Though I choose not to listen to it anyway. It annoys me. David Gilmour puts more passion into one note than the average shredder puts into a 2 hour set. I shall go into this more when I return, as I don't have much time here (which is why I merely wrote 'fuck shred' earlier; I had even less time.)
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bucky_2300

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« Reply #13 on: 31 Jan 2006, 11:14 »

^ If I just shoot up and down a scale pattern, it really does not sound like shred. Shred is not just lots and lots of notes played very quickly - it's virtuosity. And virtuosity means not just playing scale patterns. Anyone with enough practice on speed on the guitar can play scales very quickly. Even Malmsteen, who I would defy anyone to deny that he is in love with playing lots and lots of notes very quickly, does not just wank scales.

As for the "shred is passionless and emotionless" argument, it's bullshit. I'll say that right up front. Telling anyone, be they Steve Vai, Jason Becker, John Petrucci, Shawn Lane, or any number of other shred artists that the way they choose to express their musical passion and emotion is neither - you'll be laughed at. Music is essentially, at its core, an outlet for emotion. And telling people that their chosen way of expressing the sounds they hear in their heads is emotionless is close-minded and arrogant.

David Gilmour and Steve Vai (my personal favourite) are linked extremely closely. They are both amazing guitar players, with incredible skills and musical talent. They can both take ordinary notes and make them something extraordinary. They just do different things with the skills that they have. David Gilmour is famous for his bending skills, and his ability to hold a note for two bars, and keep people entranced the whole time. Steve Vai is famous for his talent for writing extremely unusual compositions that while they are completely out of the ordinary, they sound decidedly musical and refreshing to the ear. When I first heard "Building the Church," I thought the instrument in the intro was a synth. Nope. It's Steve and his guitar, with an effect pedal lending a slightly different tone to the instrument.

No matter what, music is music, and it's an outlet for emotion, and the notes that people hear in their heads. If someone happens to hear more notes closer together than another, it's still music, and music = emotion.
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Thrillho

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« Reply #14 on: 31 Jan 2006, 11:39 »

Quote from: bucky_2300
^ If I just shoot up and down a scale pattern, it really does not sound like shred. Shred is not just lots and lots of notes played very quickly - it's virtuosity. And virtuosity means not just playing scale patterns. Anyone with enough practice on speed on the guitar can play scales very quickly. Even Malmsteen, who I would defy anyone to deny that he is in love with playing lots and lots of notes very quickly, does not just wank scales.

As for the "shred is passionless and emotionless" argument, it's bullshit. I'll say that right up front. Telling anyone, be they Steve Vai, Jason Becker, John Petrucci, Shawn Lane, or any number of other shred artists that the way they choose to express their musical passion and emotion is neither - you'll be laughed at. Music is essentially, at its core, an outlet for emotion. And telling people that their chosen way of expressing the sounds they hear in their heads is emotionless is close-minded and arrogant.


Look, I had to go quickly so I couldn't put this across. I wasn't trying to imply that shred is passionless. I think that, if done right, shred can be pure passionate music, like Satriani. I just find that - and I hate to say this, Petrucci comes to mind - a lot of shredders seem to mind any melody in their solos an optional extra and it just doesn't SOUND like passion. Most Dream Theater I hear - note MOST - seems to be Petrucci just shredding because he can.
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Storm Rider

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« Reply #15 on: 31 Jan 2006, 15:39 »

Petrucci does plenty of melody. When he does decide to shred though, he is damn good at it.

And although I know you did not say this, and I am not accusing you of doing so, anybody who says Satch can't express emotion is dead wrong. Satriani has some of the most emotionally charged music I've ever heard.
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Kai

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« Reply #16 on: 31 Jan 2006, 15:49 »

This entire thread without mentioning Buckethead? for shame.



Actually, Satch is my personal favorite of the more well known shredding peoples. He doesn't go too far out and show offy (VAI), and what he does sounds more like music than playing up the fretboard 23 times in a minute (YNGVIeWIE MALMSTEEM. I hate his name). Eric Johnson is great. I haven't seen Fripp play but what he does is good stuff. Petrucci is simply mindblowing.


Bucky; that little rant (that you swiped from yourself from another forum too) is a pretty good look into it. I'm really into the whole drama thing (although I'm generally a techie first) and that generally is how it goes, with a few exceptions.
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bucky_2300

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« Reply #17 on: 31 Jan 2006, 16:06 »

Quote from: DynamiteKid
Look, I had to go quickly so I couldn't put this across. I wasn't trying to imply that shred is passionless. I think that, if done right, shred can be pure passionate music, like Satriani. I just find that - and I hate to say this, Petrucci comes to mind - a lot of shredders seem to mind any melody in their solos an optional extra and it just doesn't SOUND like passion. Most Dream Theater I hear - note MOST - seems to be Petrucci just shredding because he can.


Well duh. I was talking about Petrucci's solo efforts. Saying that listening to Dream Theatre is boring is like saying that apartheid in South Africa was slightly demeaning to blacks. ;)

Quote from: Kai

Bucky; that little rant (that you swiped from yourself from another forum too) is a pretty good look into it. I'm really into the whole drama thing (although I'm generally a techie first) and that generally is how it goes, with a few exceptions.


Why, thank you. Wait...you're primarily a techie? Well, I guess this means I shouldn't start telling my "theatre tech" jokes. ;)

...

What do you say when you're doing lighting and a tech tells you that he could use a wash?

"You certainly could."

Ba-dum TSHH.
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« Reply #18 on: 31 Jan 2006, 16:17 »

No, go ahead, because whether or not you think actors or techies are better, we can both agree on one thing: we're both better than musical corus members/dancers. Seriously, fuck them.


"An actor without techies is a person standing naked in the dark. A techie without actors is a person with marketable skills."


And I've totally gone onto a different subject. Whatever happened to our little theatre thread that disappeared?



Anyways, shredding. Some of Buckethead's solo stuff is simply mindblowing. I mean, You cannot tell me that Electric Tears isn't a beautiful album.
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but the music sucks because the keyboards don't have the cold/mechanical sound they had but a wannabe techno sound that it's pathetic for Rammstein standars.

La Creme

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« Reply #19 on: 31 Jan 2006, 17:19 »

The moral is, Dream Theater should become Liquid Tension Experiment again full time.
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« Reply #20 on: 31 Jan 2006, 19:40 »

Actually, you know whom I've been noticing a lot of shredding from the more I listen to?  Wintersun.
Good shredding, too.  Melodic, or at least meaningful in the context of the songs.
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« Reply #21 on: 31 Jan 2006, 19:55 »

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« Reply #22 on: 31 Jan 2006, 22:00 »

Goddammit, I LIKE Dream Theater. I just wish LaBrie would keep to the lower octaves.

Not that more LTE-esque songs wouldn't be awesome of course, I'm just getting kinda tired of the hatin'.
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Thrillho

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« Reply #23 on: 01 Feb 2006, 08:28 »

Quote from: Kai
No, go ahead, because whether or not you think actors or techies are better, we can both agree on one thing: we're both better than musical corus members/dancers. Seriously, fuck them.


"An actor without techies is a person standing naked in the dark. A techie without actors is a person with marketable skills."


And I've totally gone onto a different subject. Whatever happened to our little theatre thread that disappeared?


*cough* Erm...I'm a techie...
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Kai

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« Reply #24 on: 02 Feb 2006, 04:54 »

snazzy. Also, Angelo Batio bugs the shit out of me.
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but the music sucks because the keyboards don't have the cold/mechanical sound they had but a wannabe techno sound that it's pathetic for Rammstein standars.

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« Reply #25 on: 08 Feb 2006, 12:20 »

I got my start in music playing classical (clarinet).  Just playing fast is absolutely meaningless to me, by which I mean it doesn't impress me in the least, because I've heard, and been expected to play, some rediculous stuff.  In classical music, technique is not something that's cool to have, it's absolutely required.  Virtuosity is not measured in bpm, it's measured in control and interpretation, at those speeds.  So, that's where I'm coming from when I start on my take on playing guitar really fast.

I think a solo (of any sort) should be just like all music, which is the same way any performing art (e.g. dance and theatre as well) should be.  They should all be like sex, pretty much.  I'm going to try to keep my simile pretty vague, but if you are offended by any sort of description of intercourse, then skip to my next line break (if you want to read any part of my post).  Also, bear in mind that I'm no expert on either performing arts or sex, but here goes.  You have to start off slowly.  In fact, barely even start out at all.  The first bit is pretty much getting in the mood, i.e. forplay.  Then, when you actually get going, you don't just start going all out.  You have to slowly build up.  There are small points of interest along the way, as well as some release of tension, i.e. changing position (you can't just keep doing the same thing!  It's boring).  Anyways, it all leads up to one big, well, climax.  This has to be the point of the most tension.  It's the point up to which everything has been leading.  It's the point all the tension is released, and everything is good.  Of course, it's not the end.  There's a bit of release after the climax (think afterglow).  Bartok followed the golden mean with the climaxes for his pieces, but I tend to think that for solos, they should end a little sooner than they would were the performer using the golden mean as their guideline (especially if it's a long solo).

Now, my problem with shredding is that there is frequently no build.  No tension is built, and it's just pretty stagnant.  Now, the same problem is present in 99% of all solos out there.  Shredders just draw more attention to their solos, which would be lacking musicality either way.  To counteract that fact, though, a much larger percentage of shredders (compared to casual musicians) have a relatively good sense of musicality.  Then, of course, you have the people who are specifically told to be as over-the-top as possible (apparently that's what the record company wanted out of Nitro - louder, faster, better!).  Anyways, that's my opinion of the whole debate.  It basically boils down to one quote.  As the great Duke once said, "If it sounds good, it is good."  So, fast or slow, it had better be musical, damnit, or I'm probably going to hate it.

By the way, nobody's mentioned Paul Gilbert yet, as far as I can see.
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« Reply #26 on: 08 Feb 2006, 16:18 »

Alex Skolnick and Marty Friedman are also notable absences.
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« Reply #27 on: 08 Feb 2006, 17:11 »

So basically, in your analogy to sex, you're advising people.... to play post rock, but post rock that actually does something? WOAH
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« Reply #28 on: 08 Feb 2006, 20:45 »

Quote from: Kai
So basically, in your analogy to sex, you're advising people.... to play post rock, but post rock that actually does something? WOAH


lol.  I'm advising people to play any sort of music, as long as it actually does something.  Though, is it really post rock if it does something?
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« Reply #29 on: 09 Feb 2006, 14:02 »

No. Which is why I added the WOAH at the end. I should have probably thrown in a "PARADOX ZOMG" and "GOVERNMENT CONSPIRACIAICIESYIS" for good measure.
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« Reply #30 on: 09 Feb 2006, 15:21 »

You know what, I need to make a shocking admission here.

I barely listen to any pure shred. I don't have any Vai or Satriani, and like one Rising Force record. Tbh, it kinda bores me. I have lots of insane metal, but it's always in context. I mean, Alexi Laiho or Henrik Flyman or Michael Amott or Tipton/Downing can do things with their guitars which make me spontaneously ejaculate with glee, but all the virtuosity for virtuosities sake stuff I've heard is kinda...dull. Maybe this is the making it musical at speed thing. I dunno. All I know is, fuck, opening solo to King Diamond - Waiting. All of Judas Priest - All Guns Blazing or the third minute of Arch Enemy - Angelclaw, or (fuck the rest of the album) the opening of Children of Bodom - Needled 24/7.

Fuck.
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« Reply #31 on: 09 Feb 2006, 15:59 »

Quote from: Kai
No. Which is why I added the WOAH at the end. I should have probably thrown in a "PARADOX ZOMG" and "GOVERNMENT CONSPIRACIAICIESYIS" for good measure.


I actually kind of figured that, but I'm not familiar with this whole "post [genre]" terminology, so I was kind of adding something that would allow me to figure out what post rock means, without having to directly ask you and fully expose my ignorance, which I'm doing now anyways.  I do this all the time.  I'll not do something because it'll make me look stupid, but then I'll tell about wanting to do it anyways, which will make me look stupid anyways...
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Shredi Knights unite!
« Reply #32 on: 09 Feb 2006, 16:03 »

Quote from: KharBevNor
You know what, I need to make a shocking admission here.

I barely listen to any pure shred. I don't have any Vai or Satriani, and like one Rising Force record. Tbh, it kinda bores me. I have lots of insane metal, but it's always in context. I mean, Alexi Laiho or Henrik Flyman or Michael Amott or Tipton/Downing can do things with their guitars which make me spontaneously ejaculate with glee, but all the virtuosity for virtuosities sake stuff I've heard is kinda...dull. Maybe this is the making it musical at speed thing. I dunno. All I know is, fuck, opening solo to King Diamond - Waiting. All of Judas Priest - All Guns Blazing or the third minute of Arch Enemy - Angelclaw, or (fuck the rest of the album) the opening of Children of Bodom - Needled 24/7.

Fuck.


Well, that's the thing.  Making it musical all requires that the playing fast enhances the music.  So, just playing fast for the sake of playing fast is inherently unmusical!  However, on top of the fact that it needs to enhance the music, it also has to be well-executed with technical facility, a good musical sense, and melody.  No matter how fast something is, it must have melody (which is why I hate it when people describe slow solos as "melodic" solos), unless the point is not to have melody, but very, very little rock has assimilated that concept from concert music.
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