Now I wonder if this is what he did to Ellie. At least it would be quick for her.
Now I wonder if this is what he did to Ellie. At least it would be quick for her.
I bet not. Alice, though apparently not as powerful as Church, is still potentially dangerous to him and could, at a minimum, escape if he lets go of her. With that in mind, he appears to be dispatching and/or disabling her with only a minimum of cruelty.
Ellie, on the other hand, never presented the slightest threat to him... so he could have taken his time. Every nail. Every bone. Every internal organ, moving from least to most essential with the sort of delicacy and attention to detail possessed by only the best surgeons and most persistent torturers. I'm sure the face-ripping/brain-crushing was saved for last, otherwise she wouldn't be able to see and hear and feel what he was doing to her, and that would not have been any... fun.
Poor Ellie.
The picture in which Church burrows his fingers into Alice's face looks to me like it was inspired by Eren grabbing Annie's face in Attack on Titan (Shingeki no Kyoujin).
Am I the only one seeing this?
The picture in which Church burrows his fingers into Alice's face looks to me like it was inspired by Eren grabbing Annie's face in Attack on Titan (Shingeki no Kyoujin).
Am I the only one seeing this?
Others have theorized that he was standing down so if she did that to him then I imagine he also feels a sense of betrayal.
Then too there may be the factor that, while powerful enough in herself at this point Alice is, she may mot be as powerful as she once was prior to The Blink.
For instance, what happened to her Warhammer did The Blink 'Depower' Alice and other Supersoldiers of her class?
And yet Church appears to be more powerful.
Or alternatively Alice, to defeat him, would have to unleash forces which would cause such a level of collateral damage that it would have unacceptable effects on those around that she is trying to protect.
It's possible that since the Blink she no longer has access to technological assistance. Like the warhammer and rock-liquefying orbital strikes. So far we've only really seen evidence of incredible strength and toughness and the ability to summon armor around her. She did threaten Sedna with entombment, but she it may have been a bluff to calm her down. Without the immortal's external assistance, it could be that Church is the physically stronger. He's certainly much faster.
Unless he wasn't affected because he was locked in magma at the time.Then too there may be the factor that, while powerful enough in herself at this point Alice is, she may mot be as powerful as she once was prior to The Blink.
For instance, what happened to her Warhammer did The Blink 'Depower' Alice and other Supersoldiers of her class?
Perhaps, but if the Blink diminished her powers then why not Church? Alice knew as soon as she saw him again that she and Sedna were no match for him, but if the Blink reduced their abilities then Church would be similarly affected.
Unless he wasn't affected because he was locked in magma at the time.Then too there may be the factor that, while powerful enough in herself at this point Alice is, she may mot be as powerful as she once was prior to The Blink.
For instance, what happened to her Warhammer did The Blink 'Depower' Alice and other Supersoldiers of her class?
Perhaps, but if the Blink diminished her powers then why not Church? Alice knew as soon as she saw him again that she and Sedna were no match for him, but if the Blink reduced their abilities then Church would be similarly affected.
Pate did say that Ellie's suffering was brief, so I doubt he took his time about that. Not to mention, he killed her in the time it took the others to get there. While I have no doubt he's capable of extended torture, there wasn't the time for it. Given that the immortals can punch hard enough to shatter large areas of concrete, a backhand or two was probably more than sufficient to crush Ellie.
My impression is that the blade through Pate's heart will change phase as a kind of kill switch - if anything happens to Gavia, the blade kills Pate automatically. In which case it won't matter how fast Church is.
Glowy eyes pissed off upgraded Gavia
Not to be trifled with I think
In the last panel there appears to be a forcefield around Church and Alice, possibly from Gavia. May indicate her intervention.
I'm thinking Alice's killer instinct is kicking in. We already know she enjoys fighting. Her control that's kept that instinct in check might be gone.
I'm thinking Alice's killer instinct is kicking in. We already know she enjoys fighting. Her control that's kept that instinct in check might be gone.
I don't see why Alice would have lost control; she's badly injured, and in pain, but despite that she's taking the opportunity to laugh in Church's face.
I don't see why Alice would have lost control; she's badly injured, and in pain, but despite that she's taking the opportunity to laugh in Church's face.
The thing is, look at how Alice is laughing, how Jeph has portrayed it. The jagged look of it, the halted nature of it. That's not a "Har har, you're Pate's bitch" kind of a laugh. That's a straight up evil laugh (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WofqmWpXJZ8) or even sanity slippage (https://youtu.be/lb8fWUUXeKM?t=1m50s).
Alice has lost it, precisely because she's been badly injured. She's a weapon and she's been broken and that's manifesting in that scary looking laughter.
I don't see why Alice would have lost control; she's badly injured, and in pain, but despite that she's taking the opportunity to laugh in Church's face.
The thing is, look at how Alice is laughing, how Jeph has portrayed it. The jagged look of it, the halted nature of it. That's not a "Har har, you're Pate's bitch" kind of a laugh. That's a straight up evil laugh (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WofqmWpXJZ8) or even sanity slippage (https://youtu.be/lb8fWUUXeKM?t=1m50s).
Alice has lost it, precisely because she's been badly injured. She's a weapon and she's been broken and that's manifesting in that scary looking laughter.
Or she's been badly messed up by Church's attack, and given her half-destroyed face/mouth, this is what her laugh sounds like.
if saving the life of an immortal gives that person control over them Alice may still hate the situation no matter who it is. While I doubt Gavia holds a grudge and probably feels indebted for her saving her from the Nightwalker...
Then how would you explain Pate's control over Church? If Church was just following him until he could satisfy his revenge then he wouldn't back down once he got it.
Honor? Gratitude? There are countless reasons why Church might follow and protect Pate. His desire for revenge doesn't have to have anything to do with it.
He could've abandoned Pate, killed Alice, then Gavia, Sedna, and Ardent leaving no witnesses to say otherwise except himself.Maybe. But then what? Maybe Pate doesn't control him, but he has some sense of purpose while Pate's alive, and that might be more than he's had in thousands of years, and more than he sees having post-Pate.
It may be that the supersoldiers were the reason for The Blink, because when one became damaged, they went out of control. So the Powers That Be shut everything down.
A lot of backstory that could be told by Jeph here - and if memory serves, Jeph's only scratched the surface of this story...
I know it's a convention of most sci-fi that everywhere has 1g gravity and a breathable atmosphere, but in point of fact all our heroes and villains are in orbit well above the Earth. So apparently the inside of wherever they are has gravity and life support (this despite the rather large hole Church made in it), or else Gavia has extended her bubble around all the proceedings, and her bubble has artificial gravity along with instantly generated atmosphere.
So far these vaunted praeses have yet to actually do anything in the story other than allowing the twins to make a trip to Earth. I hope they (the praeses) get off their wooden butts and do something soon, as the main characters seem to have arrived at an impasse. (Given Church's apparent lack of need for sleep, I bet on him winning any temporary standoff.)
So far these vaunted praeses have yet to actually do anything in the story other than allowing the twins to make a trip to Earth.Twins? I was under the impression that Gavia is the elder by a few years (or cycles, or whatever Orbitals use to mark time).
Was that supposed to be the same link thrice?No, it wasn't. Damn.
She never called herself a witch . . ..Really?
So far these vaunted praeses have yet to actually do anything in the story other than allowing the twins to make a trip to Earth.Twins? I was under the impression that Gavia is the elder by a few years (or cycles, or whatever Orbitals use to mark time).
Church's expression when Ellie tried to cold-cock him was the first time we'd seen him drop his flat affect, like he was thinking, "You've crossed the line - now I can act. (http://www.alicegrove.com/post/152175316869/bravery)" The appearance of his eyes seems to signal which mode he's in. Even a threat to Pate (http://www.alicegrove.com/post/153991037889/alice-is-fast-but-mr-church-is-faster) doesn't appear to release the control, whatever it is, but a threat to his own person (http://www.alicegrove.com/post/159157247154/church-is-going-to-miss-his-hat) does.
If he's programmed, Alice may be chuckling because she knows that Church's perception of the threat to himself will diminish, he'll drop back to 'droid mode, and the knife in Pate will attenuate into part of the background. At that point all Gavia has to do is prevent Pate from issuing instructions to Church and she can snooze (if she even needs to now - we don't know what effect the nanobots have on that part of her physiology).
We also know from early in the story that Ardent elected to not use nanotech. He may still be able to adopt it, especially if they can retrieve another nanopod from the wreckage of the Valkyrie.
Old broken machines in the ground, strange lights in the sky, the bones of ancient mega-structures across the land. What knowledge might be gained, what mysteries solved, what power attained?
I'm keeping my mind open, but to be honest, the 'rescuing a being enslaves them to you' theory doesn't ring true to me.
Btw, are we still on chapter six?Yes. We haven't gotten any indication of a chapter break yet.
I'd be pretty disappointed if I was reading a science-fiction story and in the last chapter it turned out to be a fantasy.I'm keeping my mind open, but to be honest, the 'rescuing a being enslaves them to you' theory doesn't ring true to me.
It's how genies and some other mythical figures work and seeing as how Church is old and powerful enough to be one I wouldn't rule it out.
I'd be pretty disappointed if I was reading a science-fiction story and in the last chapter it turned out to be a fantasy.I'm keeping my mind open, but to be honest, the 'rescuing a being enslaves them to you' theory doesn't ring true to me.
It's how genies and some other mythical figures work and seeing as how Church is old and powerful enough to be one I wouldn't rule it out.
Yes ... and no. Charles Stross's The Merchant Princes series starts out looking like a fantasy and turns SF over the first couple of books. That's taking what looks like magic and carefully defining its parameters until you realize it's science. That's actually pretty cool.I'd be pretty disappointed if I was reading a science-fiction story and in the last chapter it turned out to be a fantasy.I'm keeping my mind open, but to be honest, the 'rescuing a being enslaves them to you' theory doesn't ring true to me.
It's how genies and some other mythical figures work and seeing as how Church is old and powerful enough to be one I wouldn't rule it out.
One of my favorite books is Sylvia Engdahl's Enchantress from the Stars (https://www.amazon.com/Enchantress-Stars-Sylvia-Engdahl/dp/0142500372), which starts off sounding like a fairy tale and turns out to be a science fiction story. Turnarounds can be awesome if done well.
I'd be pretty disappointed if I was reading a science-fiction story and in the last chapter it turned out to be a fantasy.I'm keeping my mind open, but to be honest, the 'rescuing a being enslaves them to you' theory doesn't ring true to me.
It's how genies and some other mythical figures work and seeing as how Church is old and powerful enough to be one I wouldn't rule it out.
One of my favorite books is Sylvia Engdahl's Enchantress from the Stars (https://www.amazon.com/Enchantress-Stars-Sylvia-Engdahl/dp/0142500372), which starts off sounding like a fairy tale and turns out to be a science fiction story. Turnarounds can be awesome if done well.
I'm keeping my mind open, but to be honest, the 'rescuing a being enslaves them to you' theory doesn't ring true to me.I agree, that seems a stretch to me, too.
Perhaps the Warhammer is that mechanism.
I wonder if the original creators of the super-soldiers had some kind of explicit control over them? If I'd built Church, I'd have made damned sure I could make him do what I wanted, and, more importantly, make him unable to turn on me. If Pate got ahold of that mechanism before he unearthed Church, then Church would be completely under his control, like it or not.
A. Last chapter? What? Why?I'd be pretty disappointed if I was reading a science-fiction story and in the last chapter it turned out to be a fantasy.I'm keeping my mind open, but to be honest, the 'rescuing a being enslaves them to you' theory doesn't ring true to me.
It's how genies and some other mythical figures work and seeing as how Church is old and powerful enough to be one I wouldn't rule it out.
True, but she also called Gavia a demon in the same speech, which was addressed to children. I think we can take both statements with a large dollop of salt.
Alice also refers to herself as a witch here too, speaking to Gavia and not her townspeople. I think she puts more stake in the "witch" thing than just irony.I interpreted that as her trying to deflect.
She's cracking wise here too. Positively dropping with irony. I can't see how you can read this any other way. Honestly."Witch," from the Old English "wicce" meaning a wise woman. A wicce was also understood to be an elder (probably because age and wisdom usually go hand in hand). Alice is calling herself a witch in this sense, not the fairy tale Halloween hag version of the Christian Church's Whore of Babylon wanna-be you seem to be assuming.
I think it's more that humans tend to refer to any woman with abilities they don't understand as a witch. She never called herself a witch, she just accepts that that's what the villagers call her.
Anyway, if you can't see anything beyond "She's deflecting/lol ironic sarcasm", not even to "She's deflecting/and MAYBE there's some character reason she prefers witch based on her repetition of it", I'm not sure what to tell you.
What is fairly certain (from what we've seen) is that Alice has never directly claimed to be an actual witch in the sense of having magic in the sense of being able to cast spells, and as far as anyone here knows, has never cast any. Spells in the sense of non-technical "powers" and paranormal methods of manipulating otherwise natural forces and without requiring the use of tools to do so. Just like it's fairly certain she has referred to herself as one, as have others. Is that her saying she's a witch, perhaps.Note Clarke's Third Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws).
Note Clarke's Third Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws).Yes but there is a difference between innately and inherently being able to harness natural forces via paranormal manipulation, and using tech to accomplish something like it or that works the same. Others may not be able to tell tech from magic or the opposite, and perhaps even the user wouldn't know. If somebody knew or could find out the mechanism, they'd know though. Short of absolute indistinguishable where the difference couldn't be told, or where the method was some blend or mix, it's one or the other. (Blend/mix, imagine perhaps something like being able to collect and create power and effects from high frequency sound waves by a normal natural ability they'd evolved into, or somebody building a tool that draws upon nodes of tri-folded inter-dimensional magitrons to power it.)
What I keep seeing, to my surprise, is the idea that sentient creatures (whether the sentience is artificial, natural, or magical) can be somehow "programmed", the way the genie of the lamp was in the Arabian Nights stories. And it totally rings false to me, regardless of the source of the intelligence. Unless it's a genie-type fantasy, which has not been a thing for a few centuries really.
What I keep seeing, to my surprise, is the idea that sentient creatures (whether the sentience is artificial, natural, or magical) can be somehow "programmed", the way the genie of the lamp was in the Arabian Nights stories. And it totally rings false to me, regardless of the source of the intelligence. Unless it's a genie-type fantasy, which has not been a thing for a few centuries really.
Have you not read 1984?
Or just watch the news - what else is the radicalisation that leads to terrorism, and notably suicide bombers?
That formulation makes no sense to me at all.
And that AI who realized the futility of endless war was named... Joshua.
And now you know the rest of the story.
It was also interesting that Sedna's spiel put Alice and Church in the same bracket. So why did Church appear to have the upper hand? Just the slightly varied capabilities of different models?
As I read it: (Conjecture, really)...
"Things like Alice and Church" ...
Sedna calls her own former lover a "thing".
Uh, Ardent, did you actually fail to see that Alice was serving the village?
"Things like Alice and Church" ...
Sedna calls her own former lover a "thing".
Uh, Ardent, did you actually fail to see that Alice was serving the village?
She also called herself a "thing."
"We were designed to be strong. ... You don't create something like that without giving it a failsafe."
It's quite possible that Ardent was indeed aware that Alice was serving the village, but at that particular moment incorrectly narrowed his interpretation of "serving" to serving an individual, as was the case with Church.
"Things like Alice and Church" ...
Sedna calls her own former lover a "thing".
Uh, Ardent, did you actually fail to see that Alice was serving the village?
Uh, Ardent, did you actually fail to see that Alice was serving the village?
This thing about serving the village reminds me of one of the strings left over from the early plot: the villagers don't actually need Alice. They seemed to be doing fine without her. Especially considering she specifically gave them a device to notify her if they needed help. That device hasn't been mentioned at all since.
We were designedWelp, it's official. I was wrong.
It's been heavily implied that she purposely keeps them at a low technology level to keep their civilisation sustainable. She stated as much when Ardent upgraded the water pump.
Another matter that's not entirely clear is why she and Church fought all those millennia ago. There were 2 factions the AI and augmented humans. According to Alice the AIs disappeared so unless she was providing misdirection she and Church either fought for the augmented faction or the AIs also produced immortal soldiers too with similar designs and compulsions.
Alice understands the perils of too much technological progress all at once on account of how depleted the Earth was after the catastrophic wars, but to keep her town at the level it's at in perpetuity would require among other things population control. Eventually that town would grow to a size which would require improvements to its infrastructure and smaller satellite towns and villages surrounding it, but from what we can tell Alice's town is the only settlement for miles around. How she does it if she even does remains unclear. As I previously stated she may repeatedly try to help a community until things go wrong beyond her ability to fix and she wanders over to the next settlement to begin the process again or she resorts to measures of keeping her town just the way it is which leaves her feeling constantly guilty.There's a lot of things we don't know about the world of Alice Grove, specifically the level of technology among the Humans on Earth. All we know for sure is that there are electric wind generators, hand operated water pumps and horse and carriage set-ups. Which means we can't infer whether medical technology exists or has that knowledge regressed to "leeches for what ails ya, which is everything". But that likely means we're looking at an M. Night Shyamalan film and I don't think we really want that.
As far as the differences between Alice and Church . Alice seems more refined and thoughtful, with more latitude in choices of what to do and how to do it. Less of a compulsion going along with less power and more intelligence. Is that because she's a more advanced model, or a less advanced one? Seems like more, could be less.I like this theory. If Alice were a very high-level commander, she'd have a far broader service mandate -- a general doesn't serve any one entity, but the polity as a whole. That couls also explain why Alice was burying Church back in the past: she was enforcing discipline and he served her at the time.