There is one option that I just thought of and nobody has mentioned it - as far as I can recall but that is a very small subset.
What if Ardent is the root cause?
There are no other players in the game outside of those that were always there.
What factor that may have been overlooked but has been an ongoing theme in a lot of scifi anime and manga is humanities next quantum shift in evolution once they become spacers. aka Newtypes
I still think Pate's going to be turned into Pate by the end of this story.Don't you mean Paste?
Don't you mean Paste?
Don't you mean Paste?
Nope, Cesium133 got it right.
Although I imagine you might find the idea of fois gras horrifying and hard to swallow.
:claireface:
I'll see myself out.
I just noticed that last strip Pate is confident that Church versus a giant space tree might "almost be a fair fight" (I assume in favour of Church). But compare that to the most recent one and SpookySap considers all three supersoldiers combined and gives them a hard meh.
I don't need to "swallow" the idea of foie gras. It's a sad reality I internalized long ago and must liver with everyday :psyduck:Fun fact: Ducks are cannibals.
I need sleep
Fun fact: Ducks are cannibals.
:psyduck:Fun fact: Ducks are cannibals.
Cannibals with explosive corkscrew penises. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0EbkDNKN-E
O... kay, so what we're seeing here is:(click to show/hide)
So, yeah; definitely a third party involved here!
BenRG supposes that we're talking about a matrix-style situation, with a computer-simulated reality operating inside a non-computer reality. But that's not what Laridia is describing. She specifically says that the reality of our characters is exactly the same as those hosted by the praeses. Also, she seemed to actively consider the idea of bringing the whole party into the hosted reality. Thes isn't really possible if the hosted reality is a matrix and the outer reality isn't. At best you could clone the external characters and run their copies in the matrix-reality. I guess you could imagine knocking out the "real" characters and connecting them to an avatar in the simulated reality, but I don't see any of the stuff you'd need for that, and in any case it contradicts Laridia's claim that both realities are of the same type.
Why don't we just use the summary video? (NSFW, obviously.)(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/IBTL4lvaXA4/hqdefault.jpg)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1v_EcjeIkg
Considering the "Blink", I'm assuming the "outside world" in itself is already a simulation in the same way the praeses apparently are, that's probably what Laridia meant.After the last two strips, I'm getting a similar impression.
And it all runs inside Pintsize's head
"Mr. Church, I do believe you're off your leash." And what, pray, does Pate think Church should do? There is a new party present, of unknown capacities and motives; what on Earth (yeah, yeah) makes Pate think Church's brand of elemental violence is even useful at this moment? More than a bit, mm, rash, I'd say.
So if Church is off the leash, and the only target he is interested in is Alice...
But if he tries that within the Praeses, I imagine we will see some overwhelming force prevent him ... or an alteration of the simulated reality which has an equivalent effect.
So I've been confused on something for months now. Remember back when Gavia got her powers back and incinerated/popped the ship an they're all trying to grab onto each other and not fly off into space? What was the deal with Church seeming to suddenly turn on Pate and get ready to flatten him before Alice came in and knocked him away, leading to their fistfight? Why did he momentarily turn on him, and now why is he back to being loyal to Pate?He didn't turn on him, he was trying to get ahold of him to guard him.
So I've been confused on something for months now. Remember back when Gavia got her powers back and incinerated/popped the ship an they're all trying to grab onto each other and not fly off into space? What was the deal with Church seeming to suddenly turn on Pate and get ready to flatten him before Alice came in and knocked him away, leading to their fistfight? Why did he momentarily turn on him, and now why is he back to being loyal to Pate?
Never expected to get a new strip in the same week or just one day after the previous one. Thanks Jeph!
Unless her implication is that this is also a simulation.
New comic... You know, Alice Grove turned into Uber so gradually I didn't even notice.
So this is all very metal and all, but if Sedna was considerably slower and weaker than Alice and Church was a blur to Alice, I don't think she'd even be able to reach Pate before Church was on her. Maybe that'll give Gavia an opening though?
New comic... You know, Alice Grove turned into Uber so gradually I didn't even notice.
So this is all very metal and all, but if Sedna was considerably slower and weaker than Alice and Church was a blur to Alice, I don't think she'd even be able to reach Pate before Church was on her. Maybe that'll give Gavia an opening though?
Or will Sedna attack Church directly? Driving her bone knife into the base of his skull (I reckon she knows how to remove his helmet) will disrupt his functioning even if it doesn't kill him, and it'll buy Alice, Gavia, and even Ardent some time. I wonder what would happen if Ardent picked up Sedna's arm? (Sick pun intended.) And then there's Laridia. Will she put a stop to it, or stand by then take out the survivor?
Jeph: "This is the most metal thing I have ever drawn"This is the most metal thing I have ever seen:
Me: O.O "This is probably the most metal thing I have ever seen"
So, am I the only one who thinks that Sedna has Wolverine-levels of bio-regeneration?
Well. Now this comic is going places.
I have realized what it is about Pate that annoys me - he is so, so stupid.
...
Pate proved that he knows next to nothing about the Praeses - ("magic space fairy"??) - yet he expects (without any real thought) to just unleash his thug and walk all over anyone in his way.
She mentioned earlier about cutting off Church's head as if there was a way. Maybe their bones are equally strong and she can use her forearm to cut through his neck.
Turns out Sedna WAS fast enough to stop Church, although apparently at the cost of her own life.I think that may be because he was so focussed on something else, most likely Alice, that Sedna was able to get to him. She did take him down from behind.
Although she did heal from heavy wounds before, so I wouldn't be surprised if they were BOTH still alive, only incapacitated.Me neither, but I sincerely prefer both dead to the alternative. And the fact that Jeph is trying to end this story, I don't think Mr. Church will survive this encounter.
Next I think someone will deal with our Paté friend.Oh yes, I hope so.
No one has any need to kill Pate - he's lost his weapon and is now powerless.
No one has any need to kill Pate - he's lost his weapon and is now powerless.Mmm, remember Pate was the only one Laridia didn't list as being potentially dangerous...
Really, just such an insightful comment Sitnspin, thank you for that.
As can be inferred from Sitnspin's comment, at this stage its not so much need as more like a cathartic release for him being such a colossal douche with all the charm, likeability and personality of a diseased slug and that popping his head like an overripe pimple would be doing the universe a favour.
It's like you just described Renee. :-P
He'll be more hurt by being ignored. Boo-hoo.
Where is Laridia in all this?
He'll be more hurt by being ignored. Boo-hoo.
At first I thought "now wait just a goldurn minute here" (yes I do actually think like that). Church is so invulnerable that Alice originally had to bury him in lava to stop him, so Sedna just stabs him a couple times and he falls over? Then it hit me: just as only a diamond can cut a diamond, perhaps only a jagged bit of super-soldier can cut another super-soldier. That is some SERIOUS material they're constructed out of. If Alice had been willing to use a chunk of herself as a weapon, maybe she could have taken down Church earlier.
I too hope Sedna survives, but that's not the way to bet. Perhaps her sacrifice will impress the Praeses.
Pretty sure Church is toast after that brain strike through the eye, unless they keep their brains elsewhere.
No, I mean, I wonder why he's ending it at all.Wow. I...missed a lot in this past week or so. Just caught up on this thread. I wonder why Jeph is so ready for this to end.
I think it's a pacing thing. Take the simulation bombshell, or Sedna killing Church. If these were drawn out as weekly comics, we as readers would suffer due to our habit of overanalysing things and forming expectations or interpretations. Daily comics let us experience the comics as they come, which is closer to how they would be read in print. Waiting for the pay-off of Sedna ripping her own arm out wouldn't be nearly as exciting if we had to wait until next week to see her do Church a murder. That's important in webcomic writing, where sections which would be fine in print can drag when you're waiting for updates.
No, I mean, I wonder why he's ending it at all.
He'll be more hurt by being ignored. Boo-hoo.
Everyone there was a witness to Ellie's death, if memory serves. Gavia was threatened with torture. Alice was enslaved.
Ignoring Pate is not on their agenda.
Sparing his life would require an out-of-character surge of spiritual enlightenment.
He's an imminent corpse unless someone saves him.
there's no reason to continue it.There are so many reasons! But alas, 'tis his story.
there's no reason to continue it.There are so many reasons!
Where is Laridia in all this?
While Jesper may not be the most obnoxious autocrat around, it's a cinch that he has plenty of enemies back home, and his life isn't worth a plugged nickle if he returns without Church. If Elmer is dead or too damaged to be useful Pate will be begging Laridia for asylum, even if it means being discorporated and reduced to JESPER.EXE.
Sparing his life would require an out-of-character surge of spiritual enlightenment.Enter Ardent. He's the most dynamic character of the bunch and Jeph has him moving from foolish youth to wise young man. If anyone advocates for clemency for either Pate or Church, it'll be him.
That's why I fear the worst for Sedna. If this was a possibility then why not do it sooner?
Laridia is the embodiment of an AI that is running multiple universe simulations. "A few seconds" is an eternity with that processing power.Where is Laridia in all this?
The eight frames since Pate told Church he was "off his leash" represent only a few seconds in real time. Laridia hasn't had time to respond.
While Jesper may not be the most obnoxious autocrat around, it's a cinch that he has plenty of enemies back home, and his life isn't worth a plugged nickle if he returns without Church. If Elmer is dead or too damaged to be useful Pate will be begging Laridia for asylum, even if it means being discorporated and reduced to JESPER.EXE.
At first I thought "now wait just a goldurn minute here" (yes I do actually think like that). Church is so invulnerable that Alice originally had to bury him in lava to stop him, so Sedna just stabs him a couple times and he falls over? Then it hit me: just as only a diamond can cut a diamond, perhaps only a jagged bit of super-soldier can cut another super-soldier. That is some SERIOUS material they're constructed out of. If Alice had been willing to use a chunk of herself as a weapon, maybe she could have taken down Church earlier.
I too hope Sedna survives, but that's not the way to bet. Perhaps her sacrifice will impress the Praeses.
Pretty sure Church is toast after that brain strike through the eye, unless they keep their brains elsewhere.
That's why I fear the worst for Sedna. If this was a possibility then why not do it sooner? Sure the immortals have survived some seriously lethal damage, but perhaps losing a limb or piercing the brain is the Achilles Heel or silver bullet. That could be why Alice didn't do this during the last fight because if she failed she'd die and no one could hope to stop Church.
No, I mean, I wonder why he's ending it at all.Wow. I...missed a lot in this past week or so. Just caught up on this thread. I wonder why Jeph is so ready for this to end.
I think it's a pacing thing. Take the simulation bombshell, or Sedna killing Church. If these were drawn out as weekly comics, we as readers would suffer due to our habit of overanalysing things and forming expectations or interpretations. Daily comics let us experience the comics as they come, which is closer to how they would be read in print. Waiting for the pay-off of Sedna ripping her own arm out wouldn't be nearly as exciting if we had to wait until next week to see her do Church a murder. That's important in webcomic writing, where sections which would be fine in print can drag when you're waiting for updates.
Sparing his life would require an out-of-character surge of spiritual enlightenment.Enter Ardent. He's the most dynamic character of the bunch and Jeph has him moving from foolish youth to wise young man. If anyone advocates for clemency for either Pate or Church, it'll be him.That's why I fear the worst for Sedna. If this was a possibility then why not do it sooner?
This is the first time Church has dropped his guard. Sedna's been watching and waiting (http://www.alicegrove.com/post/154586478449/sedna-maintains-a-positive-attitude) since he killed Ellie. He let himself get distracted by his desire for revenge and Sedna struck.
My problem is that I'm getting a real "rocks fall, everyone dies" feel for this ending.We still haven't seen an inkling of what the laserblast to the moon was or what it did.
This is the first time Church has dropped his guard. Sedna's been watching and waiting (http://www.alicegrove.com/post/154586478449/sedna-maintains-a-positive-attitude) since he killed Ellie. He let himself get distracted by his desire for revenge and Sedna struck.Also "Put on a spike" from that particular strip. Evidently Sedna meant that a little more literally than it seemed.
Hmmm. :/
I'm kind of disappointed by this resolution, mostly because every part of it is so implausible that instead of feeling like "Oh, that's such a cool thing to do with the scenario presented!", I'm just thinking, "... What?"
Firstly, if Supersoldier Bones that were randomly broken into shards made a strong enough knife to punch through Supersoldier Armor, why wasn't Alice just armed with a bone knife when she fought him before the Blink? Don't bury him, stab him to death. (Or bury him, uncover the top of his head, THEN stab him to death.)
Second, we've seen that Church is MUCH faster than Alice (being able to cross several paces before Alice can move her arm two feet(, who in turn is - if not faster - at least stronger than Sedna. So either 1, why wasn't Church running at anywhere near top speed, or 2, how dod Sedna suddenly run faster than him?
Third, Laridia is clearly not scared of Church, even remotely: She views him as a minor potential nuisance. Based on this, it seems unlikely that a fight could break out at all.
This is the first time Church has dropped his guard. Sedna's been watching and waiting (http://www.alicegrove.com/post/154586478449/sedna-maintains-a-positive-attitude) since he killed Ellie. He let himself get distracted by his desire for revenge and Sedna struck.Also "Put on a spike" from that particular strip. Evidently Sedna meant that a little more literally than it seemed.
But poor Alice. What is her reaction to Sedna's death going to be?
Second, we've seen that Church is MUCH faster than Alice (being able to cross several paces before Alice can move her arm two feet(, who in turn is - if not faster - at least stronger than Sedna. So either 1, why wasn't Church running at anywhere near top speed, or 2, how dod Sedna suddenly run faster than him?
Take a closer look at that comic. It's hard to tell exactly the real distances, but based off of the character's scale relative to one another, Alice is a couple of paces - five or six feet- at most behind Pate, and Church is WELL behind either of them, at least ten feet behind Alice.Second, we've seen that Church is MUCH faster than Alice (being able to cross several paces before Alice can move her arm two feet(, who in turn is - if not faster - at least stronger than Sedna. So either 1, why wasn't Church running at anywhere near top speed, or 2, how dod Sedna suddenly run faster than him?
Both Pate and Church were anticipating an attack when Alice moved to kill Pate (http://www.alicegrove.com/post/153991037889/alice-is-fast-but-mr-church-is-faster) and were ready for her. If Church's attention had been on Sedna, she probably would not have gotten to him in one piece - make that two pieces. But, he was focused on (presumably) Alice and probably thinking up a 5,000 year torment to inflict upon her and didn't remember/bother to check his six. (Note the contrast between Church's normal flat affect poker face versus his shark smile whenever he's attacking Alice.) For Sedna it was now-or-never - she saw her chance to kill the bastard and went for it.
I would say that if we were to crudely equate the super soldiers to something similar, then Church is a dreadnought, Alice is a cruiser and Sedna is a destroyer. Church is the powerhouse that needs to build up speed, Alice is the jack-of-all-trades, while Sedna is brings firepower beyond her comparative size. Essentially, The destroyer rammed the dreadnought and took it down.That doesn't really solve much, though. My point about Laridia was easily the weakest, so I could buy that she just didn't react quickly enough before the melee went down, but we've clearly seen that these characters are effectively indestructible, with Church being completely unphased by literally everything else up to this point. Alice uses a weapon that we can presume is specifically designed for her to use against other super-soldiers, and then hits him with an orbital space cannon exterminatus beam laser, and all it does is trap him Rita Repulsa style. A splintery bone should not be better at cutting through armor than an actual weapon.
As for Laridia? Easy. She's a modern day aircraft carrier compared to their WWI prowess. As in she's got the reach and damage potential the others can only dream of.
Hmmm. :/
I'm kind of disappointed by this resolution, mostly because every part of it is so implausible that instead of feeling like "Oh, that's such a cool thing to do with the scenario presented!", I'm just thinking, "... What?"
Firstly, if Supersoldier Bones that were randomly broken into shards made a strong enough knife to punch through Supersoldier Armor, why wasn't Alice just armed with a bone knife when she fought him before the Blink? Don't bury him, stab him to death. (Or bury him, uncover the top of his head, THEN stab him to death.)
Second, we've seen that Church is MUCH faster than Alice (being able to cross several paces before Alice can move her arm two feet(, who in turn is - if not faster - at least stronger than Sedna. So either 1, why wasn't Church running at anywhere near top speed, or 2, how dod Sedna suddenly run faster than him?
Third, Laridia is clearly not scared of Church, even remotely: She views him as a minor potential nuisance. Based on this, it seems unlikely that a fight could break out at all.
HE GOT HIT WITH A SPACE LASER. That's not 'Let's leave him alive but incapacitated', that's 'We are hitting him with literally the most powerful weapon we have in our arsenal.'Hmmm. :/
I'm kind of disappointed by this resolution, mostly because every part of it is so implausible that instead of feeling like "Oh, that's such a cool thing to do with the scenario presented!", I'm just thinking, "... What?"
Firstly, if Supersoldier Bones that were randomly broken into shards made a strong enough knife to punch through Supersoldier Armor, why wasn't Alice just armed with a bone knife when she fought him before the Blink? Don't bury him, stab him to death. (Or bury him, uncover the top of his head, THEN stab him to death.)
Second, we've seen that Church is MUCH faster than Alice (being able to cross several paces before Alice can move her arm two feet(, who in turn is - if not faster - at least stronger than Sedna. So either 1, why wasn't Church running at anywhere near top speed, or 2, how dod Sedna suddenly run faster than him?
Third, Laridia is clearly not scared of Church, even remotely: She views him as a minor potential nuisance. Based on this, it seems unlikely that a fight could break out at all.
When Alice fought Church 5000 years ago it was probably before the Blink and her superiors might've ordered her to leave him buried in magma so they could reuse him later. After the Blink there was no one that knew he was there except Alice who I doubt wanted to go to the trouble to kill him. As for why he didn't move at top speed I believe Gavia was the target and there was no need to move so quickly. She was the only one who could put Pate in check in such a way that Church could do nothing. The rest could be killed at his leisure.
Two things:1: Well sure, but Church has been seen to pass fifteen to twenty feet of space in an eyeblink without effort.
1) I think that the Sedna arm rip comic showed something which in all likelihood took less than a second of actual time.
2) Nobody seems to have brought this up, but I think Sedna probably went full throttle after Church, and that exertion may have burnt her out. Otherwise, I think losing an arm would be nothing more than a flesh wound. She's not trying to conserve herself at this point, and I think that Church's general lack of restraint is a big part of the difference between him and Alice.
HE GOT HIT WITH A SPACE LASER. That's not 'Let's leave him alive but incapacitated', that's 'We are hitting him with literally the most powerful weapon we have in our arsenal.'Hmmm. :/
I'm kind of disappointed by this resolution, mostly because every part of it is so implausible that instead of feeling like "Oh, that's such a cool thing to do with the scenario presented!", I'm just thinking, "... What?"
Firstly, if Supersoldier Bones that were randomly broken into shards made a strong enough knife to punch through Supersoldier Armor, why wasn't Alice just armed with a bone knife when she fought him before the Blink? Don't bury him, stab him to death. (Or bury him, uncover the top of his head, THEN stab him to death.)
Second, we've seen that Church is MUCH faster than Alice (being able to cross several paces before Alice can move her arm two feet(, who in turn is - if not faster - at least stronger than Sedna. So either 1, why wasn't Church running at anywhere near top speed, or 2, how dod Sedna suddenly run faster than him?
Third, Laridia is clearly not scared of Church, even remotely: She views him as a minor potential nuisance. Based on this, it seems unlikely that a fight could break out at all.
When Alice fought Church 5000 years ago it was probably before the Blink and her superiors might've ordered her to leave him buried in magma so they could reuse him later. After the Blink there was no one that knew he was there except Alice who I doubt wanted to go to the trouble to kill him. As for why he didn't move at top speed I believe Gavia was the target and there was no need to move so quickly. She was the only one who could put Pate in check in such a way that Church could do nothing. The rest could be killed at his leisure.
Also: There's no frames of reference to be certain of this, but every single panel that shoes Church moving implies that he's rocketing forward at top speed, not taking his leisurely time. Keep in mind that he has to kill Gavia before she can get her nanobots inside Pate again - He'd be wanting to get that done immediately, before anything could slow him down. (It apparently takes no time to use the Nanobots, so he had until gavia saw him moving. That's a tiny window of time, and he seemed eager to kill.)
Sedna was a handy and humerus option to do the cutting.Please tell me that was a brilliant pun on 'humorous". Please tell me that...
Or Sedna is fast but weak. Could be due to the support role she was designed for that they would prioritize allowing her to escape from bigger threats. Dump all stat points in speed, possibly making her faster than Church.
And what is it going to do to Gavia to know that taking the knife out of Pate's heart caused this to happen...
Remembering back to Alice and Sedna's fight Ardent remarked that she was fast, but Gavia countered that Alice was faster. And seeing as how Church stopped her from ramming her hand through the back of Pate's head it would seem that he is as fast as he is strong.
Sedna was a handy and humerus option to do the cutting.Please tell me that was a brilliant pun on 'humorous". Please tell me that...
What are they, Pate? I suspect that Alice has revealed the secret of their powers: The ability to totally control their fundamental particles with conscious thought. Invulnerable, unstoppable and moving at near-infinite velocity? It's all about observing yourself to have a certain quantum value.Given the beads of sweat on Jesper's face, he's thinking, "She's a lizard and I'm a BUG!!"
Are all Earthlings that violent?It's probably why the aliens haven't invaded yet. Even if they vastly out-tech us, they know that taking our planet is going to be a massive slog and resource drain.
Well, considering we've had quite a lot of practice for many thousands of years and keep inventing news ways to enact that tendency...yes, yes we are.
As to our ancient human-likes. They're not human with these changes and additions they have are they, almost a new life form based upon humans, but obviously not entirely natural or purely organic. Not with these powers to do decidedly non-human things, like moving in warp or ripping off and tearing apart your own arm or not sleeping, whatever each has or is able to get. Overall they are adjusted by DNA manipulation, breeding, cloning; genetic bespoking, whatever. During each individual's "construction" also apparently cybernetic augmentation, nanobot cells, bionics. Super-strong, nigh-invincible, extremely long-lived/effectively immortal, self-regenerating, not requiring oxygen or suitable temperatures. Something that lives 250,000 years (or what have you), is genetically tailor-made to destroy, self-repairing supersteelish instead of bones, and with artificial fiber muscles, can survive at least near-orbit space..... Humaniform somethings.
Alice, sweetie, you've got uh... something in your uh... eye, there. You might wanna get that looked at. Or something?
It's probably why the aliens haven't invaded yet. Even if they vastly out-tech us, they know that taking our planet is going to be a massive slog and resource drain.Invasions in general are a huge slog and rarely worth the effort. If aliens want access to our rapidly depleting resources, there are much easier and efficient ways to get them than invasion.
Alice, sweetie, you've got uh... something in your uh... eye, there. You might wanna get that looked at. Or something?
"What are you?"
Force multiplication, in military science and warfare, refers to an attribute or a combination of attributes that dramatically increases (hence "multiplies") the effectiveness of an item or groupSedna's inherent strength combined with the inherent structural integrity of her bones was more powerful than either factors we're separately. Alice is impressed Sedna thought about that before she did.
But... That's still incredibly obvious. If that really is all that 'Force multiplier' means in this context, then Sedna's idea amounted to 'Use a weapon', which should not have been a surprise to Alice, because we have seen Alice use a weapon on Church pre-Blink.QuoteForce multiplication, in military science and warfare, refers to an attribute or a combination of attributes that dramatically increases (hence "multiplies") the effectiveness of an item or groupSedna's inherent strength combined with the inherent structural integrity of her bones was more powerful than either factors we're separately. Alice is impressed Sedna thought about that before she did.
But... That's still incredibly obvious. If that really is all that 'Force multiplier' means in this context, then Sedna's idea amounted to 'Use a weapon', which should not have been a surprise to Alice, because we have seen Alice use a weapon on Church pre-Blink.QuoteForce multiplication, in military science and warfare, refers to an attribute or a combination of attributes that dramatically increases (hence "multiplies") the effectiveness of an item or groupSedna's inherent strength combined with the inherent structural integrity of her bones was more powerful than either factors we're separately. Alice is impressed Sedna thought about that before she did.
(Also: It's worth pointing out that Sedna was strong enough to snap one of her bones in half while holding it with one hand and her teeth. That does not imply the kind of structural integrity that would make for a particularly imposing weapon against someone as indestructible as Church.)
It occurs to me that Alice Grove will be the right length to be made into a movie without being horribly butchered. Maybe that's the idea?I'm sure Jeph will at least collect it in book form
Force multiplication is a general term, the idea being that a force can take advantage of their environment/resources/abilities and use that advantage to do much, much more than they would without it. It doesn't have to be physical, but rather a mental advantage. In this case, you have Sedna ripping off her crippled arm and fashioning a bone shiv from it in a matter of seconds. Its not stabbing Church in the neck, its the actually act of ripping off her arm, tearing a chunk of meat off the bone and snapping a shard off. Its the sheer insanity of the act, because really, what kind of rational person with maim themselves like that to take down an enemy?! Who would think that someone would do that to themselves?! The element of surprise can be a powerful and devastating means of force multiplication.Okay, but this isn't a case of 'A far superior opponent with more strength, training, and experience was taken by surprise by a desperate act'.
Lets put it this way, if you have ever read Sun Tzu's The Art of War, he writes that the worst thing a commander can do is to drive an enemy force into a corner and giving them no way out. Why? Because the enemy has nothing to lose and will fight with even more ferocity under the belief that they are dead already.
I'm saying that the physics of the thing don't make logical sense.No, it doesn't. Fictional stories are like that. You can't be stingy with the suspension of disbelief when you follow them.
YeaNo.I'm saying that the physics of the thing don't make logical sense.No, it doesn't. Fictional stories are like that. You can't be stingy with the suspension of disbelief when you follow them.
Okay, but this isn't a case of 'A far superior opponent with more strength, training, and experience was taken by surprise by a desperate act'.
It's a case of 'An enemy who was shown to be impervious to literally everything else was killed by a weapon that has no demonstrable reason to have been sturdier than previous weapons.'
Church was strong enough to shatter Sedna's bones by squeezing his hand slightly, with neither buildup nor any leverage. This does not imply that her bones will make particularly strong weapons.
Later, we see that it takes him Consecutive Normal Punches to get through the faceplate of Alice's armor, and that his bonecrushing strength is so dampened by her body armor that she survives a massive pummeling and is able to stand a couple minutes later, implying that the armor is INCREDIBLY strong relative to unshielded Sedna bones. Chruch's armor is at least as strong as Alice's, and can take hits from orbital laser cannons and warhammers built to kill supersoldiers, but... Does absolutely nothing against a shrapnelly bone?
I'm saying that the physics of the thing don't make logical sense.
That may be your, well, belief, but need it be true for everyone? Its funny, as I get older I spot more and more plot holes in stories I enjoy but I don't let it spoil my emjoyment of the whole. As its probably next to impossible to create an absolutely consistent tale I think its probably just as well. Otherwise I risk ending up as the sort of sad git who writes scholarly papers about Shakespeare's errors but has forgotten about enjoying the plays...
That's not how suspension of disbelief works.
Suspension of disbelief is "I'll buy that this world has magic in it, and that characters have superhuman abilities that don't really exist". Or it can be "I'll buy that this world is populated entirely be attractive people with razor wit and acute self-awareness".
Suspension of disbelief is NOT "I will ignore major inconsistencies within a story's internal logic."
Well... No, that's not my belief, that's what the term means. (And yes, I'm aware that at its most basic it is simply 'A willingness to believe the unbelievable', but in storytelling terminology the phrase carries more meaning than that.)That may be your, well belief, but need it be true for everyone? Its funny, ss I get older I spot more and more plot holes in stories I enjoy bit I dont letvot spoil my emjoyment of the whole. As its probanly next to impossible to create an absolutely consisyent tale I think its probably just ss well. Otherwise I risk ending up as the sort of sad git who writes scholarly papers.about Shakespeares errors but has forgotten about emjoying the plays...
That's not how suspension of disbelief works.
Suspension of disbelief is "I'll buy that this world has magic in it, and that characters have superhuman abilities that don't really exist". Or it can be "I'll buy that this world is populated entirely be attractive people with razor wit and acute self-awareness".
Suspension of disbelief is NOT "I will ignore major inconsistencies within a story's internal logic."
I'm pretty sure Pate knows what Alice is. ISTR that he noticed that she was like Church, just not as strong or fast. Which raises the question of who he's addressing his question to.I submit that Pate thought he knew what Alice is, but is surprised and dismayed that he isn't as well informed as he believed. Or at least that's how I'm reading the facial expression Jeph gave him.
I wasn't going to list it all because I've posted many, many reasons in my various posts, just not in a list.I'm not going to bother listing the multitudes of reasons why this was either implausible, implied to be impossible, contradictory, or just poorly telgraphed, but there are lots of them. As a reader, you'd need to make assumptions verging on fanfiction to explain them all away.
If you're not, could you maybe shut up about it? Just a thought.
Your posts are so far the only ones that have made me not want to continue reading the discussion thread. Your posts basically just read like "it's shit because it's shit because Jeph is a shit storyteller".
Every single superhero movie or show I've ever seen is entirely physically implausible. I don't whine about it on internet forums though, because these shows by their very premise do not work on the same rules that the real world does. Since your posts read like a bad TV Tropes rant, here's a Tropes article for you:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool
You have paid literally nothing for this content, but you are acting like an entitled child and insisting that the author should have written a story that you would find personally satisfying.
Grow up.
I'm pretty sure Pate knows what Alice is. ISTR that he noticed that she was like Church, just not as strong or fast. Which raises the question of who he's addressing his question to.I submit that Pate thought he knew what Alice is, but is surprised and dismayed that he isn't as well informed as he believed. Or at least that's how I'm reading the facial expression Jeph gave him.
He's not a big guy and hasn't shown much in the way of any form of physical prowess, yet he's at the top of the food chain in the city state he rules. That means he's pretty damn good at collecting, analyzing, and using information. Realizing that his information is nowhere near as complete as he thought it was is terrifying, especially since it looks like his principle enforcer is down for the count* if not dead. He's thinking, "Shitohdear Jesper, they might kill you!"
*Again, note that in panel 2 (http://www.alicegrove.com/post/162674462699/all-earthlings-are-basically-that-violent-yes) Alice speaks of the neck-pierced, brain-punctured, down-on-the-floor-in-a-pool-of-his-own-blood Church in the present tense. He'll self-repair, but it's going to take him long enough that Alice feels no urgency with regard to dealing with him.
Well... No, that's not my belief, that's what the term means.You appear to be on the borders of telling me what I should be thinking. Humpty Dumpty applies.
If there had been a moment where Alice said something like, "Our bones are the hardest objects on the planet, only another supersoldier can break them, etc," it wouldn't adhere to any set of physical laws that I'm aware of, but that wouldn't matter - The rules of the story would have been established in a self-consistent way.Can't help thinking that the bunker demolition in http://www.alicegrove.com/post/154299453294/bam would not have gone well with steel or carbon fibre bones.
Alright, list! (This isn't to make any point I haven't already made, I'm just compiling everything, so I'm gonna slide this in a spoiler. It's an infodump. The point is not that any one of these issues breaks the suspension of disbelief, it's that all of them combined create too much of a burden of implausibility.)
Well said
Mister Anderson.
Whose to say that this isn't a simulation?
Inception-mode engaged!
I don't get it. Why rush through to the end if you're not going to bother with an ending? Am I missing something?
I don't get it. Why rush through to the end if you're not going to bother with an ending? Am I missing something?
I'm getting the vibe that Jeph really wants to have Alice Grove done ASAP (He has basically said so) and is now rushing his narrative a bit.This. He's killed the narrative arc all at once, almost as if he's lost interest in the comic and just wants to shut it down.
This. He's killed the narrative arc all at once, almost as if he's lost interest in the comic and just wants to shut it down.
I'm kind of disappointed -- this leaves a lot of plot threads hanging, and I've have liked to see them play out. (For instance, what's the history between Alice and Sedna? Why is the world a simulation? How did the decision to make that happen take place? What was the nightwalker, and why did it want Gavia's nanotechnology? I can go on...)
I suspect that Gavia and Ardent were MI (notice that I used 'Machine Intelligence', not 'Artificial Intelligence' - that matters) algorithms, created by meshing the algorithms of their 'father' and 'mother' and creating something new in a way that mimics how a child's genetics are created from their parents' genetics. Whilst they are code on an electronic media, they are still naturally-developed rather than the product of a deliberate and directed manufacturing process like Bubbles or Pintsize. This level of randomisation is what leads to personalities that the Praeses cannot predict or control beyond very limited levels.
I'm wondering if the Praeses were originally meant to be arks - designed to carry the intelligence of billions of humans to some new home upon which time they would have been re-embodied on the target world. When you think about it, digitising the crew and colonists makes a lot of sense. You still have a full active crew but you only need power to maintain the electronic environment and you can have as many unsuitable target systems as you like as the crew presumably would not age. However, the Praeses decided that they didn't want to go anywhere and just hung out in GEO instead. Maybe they thought that the throw-backs on Earth would die out eventually and they could reclaim the planet.
Then, maybe someone decided to kick them out of their holding pattern, one way or another.
Ahhhhh, I misinterpreted that as those being the most recent twelve, I thought it was over. Complaint withdrawn.I don't get it. Why rush through to the end if you're not going to bother with an ending? Am I missing something?
jeph's tweet I posted had 12 tabs on the top... I take that to mean there are 12 more comics to go, and then "that's it"
Armour that is resistant to projectiles and blunt impacts could potentially be vulnerable to bladed and piercing weapons (knives).Little late to reply, but Kevlar is useless against arrows and a knife will go through it with a good stab.
Or an icepick. Or a very pointy shard of bone.QuoteArmour that is resistant to projectiles and blunt impacts could potentially be vulnerable to bladed and piercing weapons (knives).Little late to reply, but Kevlar is useless against arrows and a knife will go through it with a good stab.
I'm reading the wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell%27s_demon) and... Maybe I'm not versed enough but it's not helping. This was a well-arted comic though.
Maxwell's Demons...... O.......K........?
Huh, that explains why Alice said Church is "attuned to the same physics" as she and Sedna.
Also, Alice is currently reminding me a lot of another certain super powerful being created by Jeph (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3412)
My brain hurts.
Huh, that explains why Alice said Church is "attuned to the same physics" as she and Sedna.
Also, Alice is currently reminding me a lot of another certain super powerful being created by Jeph (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3412)
Maybe this is Spookybot after 5000 years of evolution or an offspring.
Seems that the villagers calling Alice the witch is a perfectly valid statement. They've probably seen her do things that did seem magical, rather than merely just being immortal to them and far more physically powerful and knowledgeable.
If I'm getting what Jeph is going for here, they are not unlike entropic mages. They can twist and bend the laws of physics but there is a price to be paid. Assuming what she said in the last panel is the unvarnished truth, they are pushing the paradox backlash onto their external power source(s), black holes. They are not so much able to do anything, as they can warp physical laws around them. But that power will eventually come with a reckoning. So they tend to live as simply as possible.
Regrowing her hair quickly was probably not something she felt was worth spending energy on. It does explain the wide range of powers the immortals seem to have and why they don't make logical sense. They can change the rules as they see fit. Jumping or falling incredible distances, smashing nano barriers, being nearly immune to most damage short of another immortal. All through applied manipulation of entropic and physical forces. Same with their increased recovery rate. There is a clear hierarchy of strength though. Whether it's because they have different inherent strength with the power or differentiating access to the source Alice is more powerful than Sedna, and Church is more powerful than both. But not so much that they can't be overcome.
Seems that the villagers calling Alice the witch is a perfectly valid statement. They've probably seen her do things that did seem magical, rather than merely just being immortal to them and far more physically powerful and knowledgeable.
That was painful. Just like Church's neck.
It's not shipping if Jeph has explicitly shown us Sedna boning Church.
Anyone want to venture a guess as to why Alice seems to be suddenly giving off smoke, or maybe steam?She's not. The drops of blood on her hair and clothes are evaporating very fast, because she wants them to. And because she can violate entropy to do it.
Maybe this is Spookybot after 5000 years of evolution or an offspring.Jeph was pretty clear on saying that AG and QC do not share an universe, but these two are certainly drawing from similar sources of inspiration.
Even more directly, Sedna directly mentions putting Church's head "on a spike" at one point. From Alice's explanation, I'm guessing Sedna "broke the rules" harder than Church did. He probably didn't consider he needed that much speed to reach (I guess) Gavia on time, or simply didn't consider Sedna a threat.
By using her own bones, which seem to be already naturally strong, and applying all the force into a singular point, she was able to pierce Church's skin.
It seems their powers require a level of intent to be functional. If they're caught off guard, they aren't nearly as durable.
Which makes one wonder if the orbital laser is still up there and still functional...We've assumed it was an orbital laser, but........??
To quote Faye: What the ASS?This. So much this. This comic is like the 'Sedna bone knife' thing, only instead of weakening a dramatic moment, it is really kind of killing the whole ending. There are... What, 11 comics left? 12? 10? About a dozen. This should be the strongest part of the story, (Well, this and the introduction,) and yet it's just throwing bad twists and curveballs in the audience that I really, really doubt can be satisfiable tied up by the end, and that for the most part make the rest of the story irrelevant. If she can ignore the laws of physics, why doesn't she just... I dunno, jump into space to talk to the Praeses herself? Would that really be so difficult? She can apparently move around in a vacuum just fine, and would survive re-entry, so...
This last cartoon is seriously risking losing the plot for me. Not because of the outlandish physics, or the difficult exposition.
No, because it's all wrong. This is the ENDING. In the ending, you resolve the questions and plot complications based on the physics and rules you ALREADY set up. You don't start setting up NEW physics and rules.
Not only is it wrong from the writer/reader contract point of view, it's wrong from the 'let's just explain what we just saw' point of view. We just saw Sedna rip her own arm off and bleed out while shivving Church. And we just heard was that at least one of the participants' realities was actually a simulation, and maybe the current one too. The explanation we needed was "How did Sedna just go faster than Church and become stronger than his armor?". An explanation based on the last two things would make sense. What we got was just the opposite of that. Plus Alice using a vague "we" about the ability to violate entropy at will is just...bleah.
FIrst, nothing any of the supersoldiers has done required entropy violation (up to, perhaps, Alice's self-cleaning blood removal). So saying they can do that doesn't really answer much. But it does open up a wildcard that Alice (and whoever else is a "Maxwell's Demon") has weakly godlike abilities and always has. Meaning anything can happen and can have happened if they did it. A plot hole big enough to drive a Praeses through.
Second, it's all totally irrelevant. It doesn't really answer the relationship between Church and Sedna and Alice, or the sudden ability for Sedna to be faster, or the reason the Praeses isn't really nervous about the supersoldiers, or how Ardent and Gavia escaped from a simulation, or the Blink, or the Nightwalker, or anything. It just makes things more complicated and handwavey.
Man I could rant all night about this. However things tie up now, the whole story is suspect!
So is Alice slowly losing it (judging by facial expressions), or is she just amused that she can reveal her and the others' true nature now?
This. So much this. This comic is like the 'Sedna bone knife' thing, only instead of weakening a dramatic moment, it is really kind of killing the whole ending. There are... What, 11 comics left? 12? 10? About a dozen. This should be the strongest part of the story, (Well, this and the introduction,) and yet it's just throwing bad twists and curveballs in the audience that I really, really doubt can be satisfiable tied up by the end, and that for the most part make the rest of the story irrelevant. If she can ignore the laws of physics, why doesn't she just... I dunno, jump into space to talk to the Praeses herself? Would that really be so difficult? She can apparently move around in a vacuum just fine, and would survive re-entry, so...
I expect we will be told or shown the price shortly.
I expect we will be told or shown the price shortly.
It might be the secret to Church's power. He's willing to incur a higher entropic debt for less justification. Still doesn't explain why he didn't just magic himself out of the lava encasement.
I think it's time to start asking the hard questions.
Like...
Why was there a wind turbine at the beginning? I don't think I've seen a single electrical implement this entire comic.
To quote Faye: What the ASS?
This last cartoon is seriously risking losing the plot for me. Not because of the outlandish physics, or the difficult exposition.
No, because it's all wrong. This is the ENDING. In the ending, you resolve the questions and plot complications based on the physics and rules you ALREADY set up. You don't start setting up NEW physics and rules.
Not only is it wrong from the writer/reader contract point of view, it's wrong from the 'let's just explain what we just saw' point of view. We just saw Sedna rip her own arm off and bleed out while shivving Church. And we just heard was that at least one of the participants' realities was actually a simulation, and maybe the current one too. The explanation we needed was "How did Sedna just go faster than Church and become stronger than his armor?". An explanation based on the last two things would make sense. What we got was just the opposite of that. Plus Alice using a vague "we" about the ability to violate entropy at will is just...bleah.
FIrst, nothing any of the supersoldiers has done required entropy violation (up to, perhaps, Alice's self-cleaning blood removal). So saying they can do that doesn't really answer much. But it does open up a wildcard that Alice (and whoever else is a "Maxwell's Demon") has weakly godlike abilities and always has. Meaning anything can happen and can have happened if they did it. A plot hole big enough to drive a Praeses through.
Second, it's all totally irrelevant. It doesn't really answer the relationship between Church and Sedna and Alice, or the sudden ability for Sedna to be faster, or the reason the Praeses isn't really nervous about the supersoldiers, or how Ardent and Gavia escaped from a simulation, or the Blink, or the Nightwalker, or anything. It just makes things more complicated and handwavey.
Man I could rant all night about this. However things tie up now, the whole story is suspect!
I think it's time to start asking the hard questions.
Like...
Why was there a wind turbine at the beginning? I don't think I've seen a single electrical implement this entire comic.
Probably grinding grain. Technology that lead to the Blink might not be in use anymore, but the fundamentals would still be there, a windmill grinding grain would probably still be a necessity.
The water pump was powered before Ardent upgraded it. That was clearly an electric power windmills.'xactly so. A more interesting question is where the wind turbine came from, since its clearly of a size and scale requiring much higher strength materials than wood or steel. but I was assuming Alice (and Sedna for weapons repair) have some access to industrial capabilities way beyond that available to the baseline humans.
Tyranny? Maybe; but Alice and her peers had seen such horrors as to defy the imagination. Can she truly be condemned for wanting to ensure that this would never be inflicted on her mother race ever again?
However, now someone is trying to break the balance. It isn't the Praeses, so the question is: Who is it and what is their objective?
Is there an engineer or architect in the house?The water pump was powered before Ardent upgraded it. That was clearly an electric power windmills.'xactly so. A more interesting question is where the wind turbine came from, since its clearly of a size and scale requiring much higher strength materials than wood or steel. but I was assuming Alice (and Sedna for weapons repair) have some access to industrial capabilities way beyond that available to the baseline humans.
... then they combined their powers to rewrite the world into something that was 'better'. 'Better' defined as 'unlikely to ever start off down the path to self-annihilating conflict ever again'. Those who wanted to live in harmony with nature were put on a post-industrial Earth and those who would not give up ultra-high technology were entrusted to the Praeses to live their hyper-civilisation fantasies as data entities within virtual realities.
"How many of the deaths were your responsibility?"
"Most of them."
Well, I don't suppose we've ever thought that Alice was not a part of whatever happened way back when, but - right, we get it.
According to Laridia, the realities both within and without are not facsimiles, approximations or falsehoods. They're all equally as "real" and whatever real is, they are identical in the nature of being, however metaphysical it may be.This is sounding like Vishnu's dreams.
There are two kinds of officers, sir: killin' officers and murderin' officers. Killin' officers are poor old buggers that get you killed by mistake. Murderin' officers are mad, bad, old buggers that get you killed on purpose - for a country, for a religion, maybe even for a flag. You see that Major Hogan, sir? That's what I call a murderin' officer.
I give the late Pate credit for courage. He was sweating but never backed down knowing fully what he was up against.
Tyranny? Maybe; but Alice and her peers had seen such horrors as to defy the imagination. Can she truly be condemned for wanting to ensure that this would never be inflicted on her mother race ever again?
That cage might be for the greater good, but it's still morally wrong to force people to stay there if they want something better.Arguably every legal system is a cage in which people are forced to stay for the greater good.
(Also, it appears that she just murdered a defenseless opponent, so there's that...)Possibly executed?
That cage might be for the greater good, but it's still morally wrong to force people to stay there if they want something better.Arguably every legal system is a cage in which people are forced to stay for the greater good.
(Also, it appears that she just murdered a defenseless opponent, so there's that...)
Possibly executed?
If Path knew (or should have known) what would happen to people like Ellie, then, yes, he's a murderer. Given that Pate knew what would happen when he let Church off his leash just a few comics ago, I guess that's probably true.(Also, it appears that she just murdered a defenseless opponent, so there's that...)
Possibly executed?
"For Ellie. Because Church would have used 'restrain or immobilise' if you'd told him to but you thought him murdering someone would make sure we were paying attention to you. Mr Pate? You have my attention."
It's basically the same thing as with the Reapers from Mass Effect:(click to show/hide)
I'm not sure that I'll let Alice off the hook that easily, though -- she can't be judge, jury, and executioner in my mind.
Also, someone on reddit posted THIS (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3183) in regards to Alice's powers.So Emily created the supersoldiers to defeat entropy. Everything after flowed from that.
Also, someone on reddit posted THIS (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3183) in regards to Alice's powers.So Emily created the supersoldiers to defeat entropy. Everything after flowed from that.
Yeah, can't really mourn for Pate. Alice's actions (assuming she actually has killed him here) are more revenge than justice, but honestly, dude knew what Church could do, didn't bother to tell him to rein it in, and in fact seemed almost pleased when Ellie was killed. He could easily have said "Church, no violence. Let me lay out my case and we'll see if they're willing to cooperate." Instead, he made it a game, waited and let Church respond with maximum violence, likely as an example to force compliance. Dude's a monster.It's a time honored (using the word loosely here) method by more sly autocrats, dictators, mob bosses, warlords, and such - make one spectacular example of one or two people and keep everyone else in line. No doubt Pate employed his goons to do the same thing before he ever acquired Church. It is (or was) one of Jesper's favorite tactics.
Also, someone on reddit posted THIS (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3183) in regards to Alice's powers.So Emily created the supersoldiers to defeat entropy. Everything after flowed from that.
What was Pate before he assumed his role as mayor/king/regent/boss? I'm guessing a school teacher a la Benito Mussolini.It would explain his interest and knowledge of history.
I think it's time to start asking the hard questions.
Like...
Why was there a wind turbine at the beginning? I don't think I've seen a single electrical implement this entire comic.
Probably grinding grain. Technology that lead to the Blink might not be in use anymore, but the fundamentals would still be there, a windmill grinding grain would probably still be a necessity.
The water pump was powered before Ardent upgraded it. That was clearly an electric power windmills. A mechanical windmill is different. It's possible that they still use some sort of powered grinding wheel, but that's nothing like a Dutch windmill.
I wonder - would Alice have let Pate live if he had just admitted that he had done things wrong?
Alice was a weapon, one designed to destroy any enemies in her path. Pate was just another in a very long line of enemies.
Consider that before we judge Alice.
Yeah, me neither. I don't see Alice as being terribly obsessed with the notion of "redemption", her own or anybody else's.I wonder - would Alice have let Pate live if he had just admitted that he had done things wrong?
Personally, I doubt it.
Not that it's his fault or justifies his death, but Mr. Pate might have stopped to think that it reduced his chances of living to remind her of how many times she'd killed before.
And now we see Alice is fundamentally the same. Fortunately, she is compelled to serve humanity,
QuoteAlice was a weapon, one designed to destroy any enemies in her path. Pate was just another in a very long line of enemies.
Consider that before we judge Alice.
She was able to spare Ardent's life even though he was an ongoing danger. She has free will to the extent any of us does. She could have refrained from murdering someone who had been consummately nerfed. She has probably asked herself why she didn't pull back during the war, before she became a thousand Hitlers.
Not that it's his fault or justifies his death, but Mr. Pate might have stopped to think that it reduced his chances of living to remind her of how many times she'd killed before.
Holding humanity in stagnation is fucked up.Who says? The balanced, sustainable non-destructive lifestyle of the post blink earth seems to resemble the ideals of the green movement, and if you take the Benthamitte idea of greatest good o the greatest number then an earth where no-one is in want, everyone has safe lives etc etc looks awfully good to what a lot of the world's population experiences now. One person's stagnation may be another person's blissful contentment.
Oh god I just had a horrible thought.
Church's different colored eyes.
Spoiler for gore:(click to show/hide)
It's basically the same thing as with the Reapers from Mass Effect:(click to show/hide)(click to show/hide)
Also, someone on reddit posted THIS (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3183) in regards to Alice's powers.
Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.
Killing someone for their past deeds without legal process is the road to tyranny.Just for the sake of argument: What court will claim jurisdiction? They're in orbit and the Praeses haven't shown much interest in anything beyond generating a border quarantine officer to deal with these newcomers. If some constituted legal authority does elect to prosecute, Alice can (probably successfully) plea exigent circumstances. It's looking like Pate's weapon, Church, will at some point revive which will again make Pate an active threat, and he has repeatedly demonstrated his hostile intent against her and her party.
After all, who really wants to live forever?...me? Lots of people? I genuinely don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t want to.
Comic's up! (http://www.alicegrove.com/post/162906060764/theyre-all-like-oh-she-killed-pate-whatever)
Looks like Gavia is applying Nanobot Healing Mojo to Sedna's right shoulder, so I'm assuming she lives. She does look pretty out of it, though. If Church isn't dead, he's going to need some help recovering, too.
And Alice still has lizard eyes, but they're back to blue.
I never understood that whole argument either. Immortality sounds like so much fun!After all, who really wants to live forever?...me? Lots of people? I genuinely don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t want to.
After all, who really wants to live forever?...me? Lots of people? I genuinely don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t want to.
It's looking like Pate's weapon, Church, will at some point revive which will again make Pate an active threat
Alice More: Arrest him!
More: Why, what has he done?
Margaret More: He's bad!
More: There is no law against that.
Will Roper: There is! God's law!
More: Then God can arrest him.
Alice: While you talk, he's gone!
More: And go he should, if he was the Devil himself, until he broke the law!
Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!
More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast– man's laws, not God's– and if you cut them down—and you're just the man to do it—do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law for my own safety's sake.
You will when you get older. Swift's Struldbrugs are a very real curse. Multiple lifetimes worth of joys also means multiple lifetimes worth of regrets.After all, who really wants to live forever?...me? Lots of people? I genuinely don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t want to.
So it appears the praeses are actually alien. In fact, they act a lot like benevolent ME Reapers.
He's also an attempt at social integration with the planet-bound humans (much less successful).
If that's the case then why did she suspect the Praeses were attempting to conquer Earth?You don't think you'd find a bunch of mysterious space aliens turning up, settling themselves in orbit and abducting a sizable percentage of earth's population mildly suspicious?
If that's the case then why did she suspect the Praeses were attempting to conquer Earth?You don't think you'd find a bunch of mysterious space aliens turning up, settling themselves in orbit and abducting a sizable perecntage of earth's population mildly suspicious?
That little blue horndog will be hitting on Laridia as soon as he's not scared fecesless.He's also an attempt at social integration with the planet-bound humans (much less successful).
Struck me that he was doing just fine with that (perhaps a little bit too fine) until he got reined in.
Although Sedna and her know each other they clearly had no ability to communicate, even in an emergency. Even if every settlement has a super-soldier care-taker, they obviously have no ability to coordinate on a planetary scale.It's not the ability they lacked, it's the inclination. I don't doubt Sedna could whip together something a damn site more sophisticated than a spark gap transmitter and a crystal receiver, but the do have better wireless stuff than that (http://www.alicegrove.com/post/132184652739/100-pages-wow-alice-will-be-on-break-for-the). (I wonder if that red button is going to re-enter the story?)
Although Sedna and her know each other they clearly had no ability to communicate, even in an emergency. Even if every settlement has a super-soldier care-taker, they obviously have no ability to coordinate on a planetary scale.
It's not the ability they lacked, it's the inclination. I don't doubt Sedna could whip together something a damn site more sophisticated than a spark gap transmitter and a crystal receiver, but the do have better wireless stuff than that (http://www.alicegrove.com/post/132184652739/100-pages-wow-alice-will-be-on-break-for-the). (I wonder if that red button is going to re-enter the story?)
If that's the case then why did she suspect the Praeses were attempting to conquer Earth?You don't think you'd find a bunch of mysterious space aliens turning up, settling themselves in orbit and abducting a sizable perecntage of earth's population mildly suspicious?
Well, in that case I would say they have "Conquered", not so much are wanting to.
I am still a little perplexed by the core concept of Alice assuming that the Prases have an agenda (going way back in the comic.)
If they sent Ardent, why (at all) would they have sent him to her town. She has no capability of knowing what is going on even a few day's travel away. Although Sedna and her know each other they clearly had no ability to communicate, even in an emergency. Even if every settlement has a super-soldier care-taker, they obviously have no ability to coordinate on a planetary scale.
Unless there are lots of Ardent's on the planet (off camera) and Laridia (or the Prases she represents) is lying I don't see how they are anything except for being used here.
You will when you get older. Swift's Struldbrugs are a very real curse. Multiple lifetimes worth of joys also means multiple lifetimes worth of regrets.After all, who really wants to live forever?...me? Lots of people? I genuinely don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t want to.
I don't think I would call that abduction JimC since there's a lot we don't know about what happened during the Blink. Considering that the Praeses took half of the survivors off a resource scarce planet meant there was more for the people that remained behind. That probably helped a lot with the postwar stability and they were actually doing a favor for Alice.
And that right there RSDeuce is why this whole scheme is so suspicious. Out of all the places on Earth Ardent was sent to was the village protected by Alice. Whoever did it could've sent him to Pate's city or the other side of the world. By the time she figured out what was up it would be too late to stop it especially with Church guarding the operation. I still think this whole scheme was to lure her away from Earth, but I don't know if the Praeses are behind it. Laridia acknowledged the scarcity problem with Earth so it seems doubtful they would want to colonize it. Life as the space dwellers know it is too good to venture out unless you're like Ardent. Most people are probably like Gavia and want nothing to do with the planet they orbit so the Praeses would be hard pressed to find willing colonists. Perhaps Alice's paranoia has convinced her that Earth is more desirable than it really is.
I don't *know* that Jeph and Randall know each other, but they have linked to each other for pretty much forever, and if I were Jeph and had the option to run some sci-fi shit by XCKD I sure would.
Two comics in a row that seem particularly relevant. I really do think Randall is at a minimum watching with us, and possibly colored the world's physics back when Jeph was working on the concept.
https://xkcd.com/1862/
Maybe Alice's village is like the Doomsday Seed Vault for Homo sapiens.In which case, sending a horny blue teenager to poison the well with his genes makes sense...
I am beginning to think that the arrival of the Praeses or specifically Cupressaceae to Earth was the Blink. They arrived with an endless war over resources and territory going on, the population far outstripping the capability of the planet to provide. They absorbed the majority of life on the planet, forming internal worlds within themselves with the consciousness of the people, letting them think they live, grow old, reproduce and die...
I am beginning to think that the arrival of the Praeses or specifically Cupressaceae to Earth was the Blink. They arrived with an endless war over resources and territory going on, the population far outstripping the capability of the planet to provide. They absorbed the majority of life on the planet, forming internal worlds within themselves with the consciousness of the people, letting them think they live, grow old, reproduce and die...
I can buy simulation worlds, but I have a much harder time buying living people being "absorbed" into a simulation. To do that, without the original person continuing to live on Earth, you kinda have to record and kill them.
I do hope Gavia is able to heal Sedna properly, I have a feeling we're going to need her.
So why not tell Mr. Pate "This way to the transwarp starships" and drop him into a simulation where he and his townspeople colonize the galaxy, without telling him it's a simulation?
I am now 100% convinced that Alice Grove is just the beginning of Jeph's sci-fi universe.QC is also a sci-fi universe. Stated not to be the same one, but more famous science fiction writers have succumbed to the temptation to weld entirely different universes into a single whole at a later date with varying degrees of consistency.
QC is also a sci-fi universe. Stated not to be the same one, but more famous science fiction writers have succumbed to the temptation to weld entirely different universes into a single whole at a later date with varying degrees of consistency.Considering there's more than 5,000 years at minimum between QC (assuming it's just a '20 minutes into the future' of our world) and AG, the two could be joined with little to no issue.
Hey mikmaxs, I think that the word you are searching for in that post is denouement.Well, okay, but... Does the word matter?
denouement
deɪˈnuːmɒ̃/
noun
noun: denouement; plural noun: denouements; noun: dénouement; plural noun: dénouements
the final part of a play, film, or narrative in which the strands of the plot are drawn together and matters are explained or resolved.
New comic's up!
The question now becomes - is this about reparations for the War? Or a subtle way to destroy humanity once and for all, after all, look at the demands laid upon Ardent when his ability became apparent?
The question now becomes - is this about reparations for the War? Or a subtle way to destroy humanity once and for all, after all, look at the demands laid upon Ardent when his ability became apparent?
In the end, the Great War was all about the direction that the evolution of human society and technology took. That struggle is not over, even if The Blink forced an armistice of sorts. Pate proves that humans still have the determination to seek power, wealth and further horizons; it's an instinctive need that can't be easily quelled. I suspect that Ardent is a part of an attempt to get things moving forwards in a constructive way. For example, I wouldn't be surprised if Ardent's powers don't work on weapons.
The same moon that the Night Walker lasered?
That looks like more than just a signal... (http://www.alicegrove.com/post/143231640939/i-guess-it-hated-the-moon-that-does-it-for)
Reparations seems like an interesting choice of words. From what I concluded a few strips ago Alice was responsible for most of the deaths so why would the AIs want to do humanity any favors.
For example, I wouldn't be surprised if Ardent's powers don't work on weapons.
I guess at this point it's a 'Wait and see how Jeph resolves everything', but... Eh. It seems like he wrote himself into a corner and just wants the story to be over now.
Frankly, I am also getting more and more the impression that Jeph discovered that he inserted too many logical inconsistencies and unresolved issues in the story to properly resolve narratively (at least not within the timeframe that he is willing to still invest in AG), and therefore decided to get it over with rapidly by having each comic basically offering tons of exposition.
That looks like more than just a signal... (http://www.alicegrove.com/post/143231640939/i-guess-it-hated-the-moon-that-does-it-for)
That looks like more than just a signal... (http://www.alicegrove.com/post/143231640939/i-guess-it-hated-the-moon-that-does-it-for)
It's about the minimum size to be definitely SEEN if whoever's receiving the signal isn't actually ON the moon.
I don't *know* that Jeph and Randall know each other, but they have linked to each other for pretty much forever, and if I were Jeph and had the option to run some sci-fi shit by XCKD I sure would.
Two comics in a row that seem particularly relevant. I really do think Randall is at a minimum watching with us, and possibly colored the world's physics back when Jeph was working on the concept.
https://xkcd.com/1862/
Well, if you're bringing that up, I should mention that Jeph definitely knows Charlie Stross. (Here he is talking to Marten http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2394 ) and the Blink definitely bears some Stross influence (see Iron Sunrise). There is also some simulated world in space stuff going on in Stross (Accelerando). So there's an influence for sure.
I don't *know* that Jeph and Randall know each other, but they have linked to each other for pretty much forever, and if I were Jeph and had the option to run some sci-fi shit by XCKD I sure would.
Two comics in a row that seem particularly relevant. I really do think Randall is at a minimum watching with us, and possibly colored the world's physics back when Jeph was working on the concept.
https://xkcd.com/1862/
Well, if you're bringing that up, I should mention that Jeph definitely knows Charlie Stross. (Here he is talking to Marten http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2394 ) and the Blink definitely bears some Stross influence (see Iron Sunrise). There is also some simulated world in space stuff going on in Stross (Accelerando). So there's an influence for sure.
I don't want to jump ahead of any further replies now, but I know Jeph knows Charlie, and Charlie has since then changed his views.
EDIT: on the singularity, I mean; he wrote a book with Cory called "The Rapture of the Nerds".
...or that the whole Alice Earth was already a simulation.
EDIT: on the singularity, I mean; he wrote a book with Cory called "The Rapture of the Nerds".
For example, I wouldn't be surprised if Ardent's powers don't work on weapons.
It worked on the Valkerie - whether weapon systems remained intact (or were improved) never got a chance for exposition, though.
Technology and knowledge that is given before it is earned is always dangerous. Always.
It seems then that however many Praeses are around Earth, however many seedlings took hold whenever, whatever is embodying those in the inner reality and sending them down is doing so on a large coordinated scale. Them returning back doesn't seem to have been part of whoever's plan it is though, does it. Perhaps this is the only set that has returned because they met up with one of or the main enhanced quantal, who reacted with some thought, determination and a particular goal of asking those she thought responsible. Also had an idea of how to get into orbit, was pushed along by the intrusion of malevolent others forcing the trip, and assisted by a turn of events giving more of an ooomph than could otherwise reasonably be expected. If none of the other pairs (or singles) even met something like Alice (assuming there's even more around than Alice and Sedna (and Church) in the first place) or something killed them or who didn't know about orbiters potentially around or didn't care enough to want to find out what's going on. Then perhaps this is going to be the only return anyway.
Perhaps on pre-blink Earth spacefaring technology was unevenly distributed (scattered even) on the (habitable) surface of the planet, and Ardent & Gavia just happen to be the only pair within a few struthoweeks distance from an old rocket center?Its not unreasonable to assume that the general idea was that the mission was supposed to involve Ardent staying on Earth a lot longer, maybe even indefinitely, and that his return to orbit wasn't part of the plan.
Does "a similar phenomenon (http://www.alicegrove.com/post/162979982854/i-hope-the-others-are-having-more-fun-than-these)" mean activity on the surface or personalities who had gone missing reappearing in corporeal form? Since it doesn't appear that Cupressaceae was aware of what had become of Ardent until he arrived with Alice and company, I'm going with the latter.
Lariadia says, "Your are merely the first to return home." If there weren't more arriving, I'd expect her to say "only." That or Cupressaceae tipped its...leaves?...and knows more about the operation that it's letting on.Does "a similar phenomenon (http://www.alicegrove.com/post/162979982854/i-hope-the-others-are-having-more-fun-than-these)" mean activity on the surface or personalities who had gone missing reappearing in corporeal form? Since it doesn't appear that Cupressaceae was aware of what had become of Ardent until he arrived with Alice and company, I'm going with the latter.
I got the impression that Cupress was aware that Ardent and Gavia had, uh, left the building (so to speak) but simply wasn't able to question them about it until they got back. And since they're the first ones back, and they only just got back, that implies that none of the others have returned yet, but the trees know they're gone.
Just what sort of figures are we talking about here?
Should we judge them for doing what we made them do?
QuoteShould we judge them for doing what we made them do?
If Alice pulls out the "just obeying orders" defense I will be disappointed in her.
You can take "every other Praeses in orbit (http://www.alicegrove.com/post/162979982854/i-hope-the-others-are-having-more-fun-than-these)" at least three ways:Quote from: BenRGJust what sort of figures are we talking about here?
How many Praeses are there? Gavia had a set of names she called for a ride back so we know of at least that many.
QuoteShould we judge them for doing what we made them do?
If Alice pulls out the "just obeying orders" defense I will be disappointed in her.
If Alice pulls out the "just obeying orders" defense I will be disappointed in her.
Now I'm concerned that if Sedna is okay, Church might be too.
Now I'm concerned that if Sedna is okay, Church might be too.He's dead or so severely damaged that healing/repair will take a significant period of time. Either way, Alice feels no urgency in dealing with what's left of him.
You can take "every other Praeses in orbit (http://www.alicegrove.com/post/162979982854/i-hope-the-others-are-having-more-fun-than-these)" at least three ways:It makes me wonder if Laridia is being deliberately ambiguous.
- Each and every one of the other Praeses in orbit,
- "Every other" meaning one has reported, the next has not, the one after that has, and so on, or
- There are other Praeses that are not in orbit.
...the story thus far suggests he'll be compelled to align with a strong leader, presumably Alice or Sedna (although Gavia is developing, too).The compulsions were intended to control the superwarriors, so having them able to server each other would be spectacularly unwise. They ought to have a compulsion only to serve humans. Of course that begs the question, what is a man "...that thou art mindful of him".
Now I'm concerned that if Sedna is okay, Church might be too.
Sedna didn't have a quantum-hardened spear punched through her brain. I suspect that the brain is the super-soldiers' only weak-spot. The only way to kill them is to cause fatal neurological injury.
QuoteShould we judge them for doing what we made them do?
If Alice pulls out the "just obeying orders" defense I will be disappointed in her.
"Just obeying orders" has a completely different aspect to it if you have been genetically hardwired to need to have a commander and obey their orders (as Sedna pointed out the combat-optimised units had). For Alice and the other super-soliders, it wasn't a choice or even a cultural tradition, it was a physical and psychological necessity without which they could not function or would possibly even die.
Hold onto you breeches, we're looking at the last week of Alice Grove.I hope Jeph proves me wrong, but if he does that he'll leave more story lines with slap-dash endings than Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. (I've always wanted to know about Neville Longbottom's transformation from hopeless dweeb to guerilla general.)
If all goes according to plan.
So Ardent was presumably engineered to be so randy! He was an update dispersal mechanism*.
* I most often use that term in the sentence: "My dog is a couch-grass seed dispersal mechanism".
If the end of Alice Grove is just a tonne of exposition that wraps everything up I'll be very disappointed.
I just want to know what was up with the Nightwalker.
So Ardent was presumably engineered to be so randy! He was an update dispersal mechanism*.
* I most often use that term in the sentence: "My dog is a couch-grass seed dispersal mechanism".
Hmm, in http://www.alicegrove.com/page/143 Alice implied that part of humanity was in orbit right after the blink. That implies that the praeses were already there during the war between the 2 factions.
In addition, Alice and Sedna clearly knew a lot about the praeses, what they were doing and Alice thought initially that Ardent was sent down by the Praeses so that they could reclaim the earth.
So Ardent was presumably engineered to be so randy! He was an update dispersal mechanism*.
* I most often use that term in the sentence: "My dog is a couch-grass seed dispersal mechanism".
although sea level rise did a number on Madagascar.
Nice to see plate tectonics has basically stopped, although sea level rise did a number on Madagascar.
We also don't know if some of the major stresses in the crust were mitigated before the war broke out or if the rezoning by the war took care of all that.Nice to see plate tectonics has basically stopped, although sea level rise did a number on Madagascar.I don't think 5,000 years is quite enough time to see much of a difference in terms of continental drift.
Sorry, what is couch-grass? :?
Alice killed Pate and almost killed Ardent to prevent them from bootstrapping humanity.
And it's happening anyway.
Nice to see plate tectonics has basically stopped, although sea level rise did a number on Madagascar.
I don't think 5,000 years is quite enough time to see much of a difference in terms of continental drift.
The sleeper must awaken
You know what you and I have in common, Batty? We've both read the punchline and we've both realised that it isn't funny.
Hmm, she did use the word "reclaim" (http://www.alicegrove.com/page/131). Intriguing. Maybe the Praeses were around before the war ended... perhaps created by the ultra-biology side, except for their claim to be aliens who just happened upon earth.
On the other hand, Alice says that after the blink "What was left of humanity looked up to see thousands of new stars in the night sky. Or looked down from their new homes in orbit..." [emphasis added]
The new stars and new homes in orbit have to be the Praeses habitats, and the fact that they are new to the inhabitants of Earth means that they were not present before the Blink.
So far we've gotten a lot of answers and the only questions I have is what was the purpose of the Nightwalker and did the Praeses arrive at the end of the great war and everyone was too busy killing each other to notice?
My theory about the Nightwalker is it might have been left behind as a guardian to prevent this kind of discontinuity infection, but after enough pairs of habitat dwellers were attacked and stripped of their nanotech the Nightwalkers burned out completely.
Poor Alice. She's essentially about to watch history repeat itself.Or, not. She probably THINKS that's the case. But there's no hope in Alice's ideology, no room for growth. The AIs apparently disagree.
A being with Alice's powers having a psychological breakdown.
What could possibly go wrong?
There's still so much we don't know about the war and at the rate things are going any speculation could be quickly proven wrong, but here goes.
The war was between a faction of humanity that believed in the advancement of artificial intelligence and another that believed in genetic engineering. I think it's safe to say Alice was a part of the latter. Now the AI faction would have been a mix of AIs and their human supporters which is why this AI that Alice suspects is behind all of this did this as a form of reparations. They didn't want to forsake the humans that supported them, but probably realized that humanity was on the brink of extinction whereas they could just download their consciousness to one chassis after another. Sure a few might be destroyed here and there, but by and large they'd live to fight another day. Now perhaps at some point when it seemed like the genetically engineered faction was on the verge of victory because the AI faction was just feigning imminent defeat as a holding action as Alice speculates is when infighting began. Why else would Alice be facing down Church 5,000 years ago? Perhaps the genetically engineered faction splintered and started fighting among themselves. Meanwhile the AI faction secretly made contact with the praeses who were just passing through our solar system and likely to keep on going when they saw what Earth had become. The AIs wanted to leave, but they didn't want to abandon their human allies and probably realized that editing Earth would starve millions so they made a deal with the Praeses. They edited Earth and deposited the consciousness of their human allies with the Praeses. They probably knew how to do that since they are largely a conscious entity and figured out how to replicate the process. Meanwhile the genetically engineered faction was left behind on a rejuvenated Earth, but had to start all over without any advanced technology. Fortunately, the number of humans left on Earth was a manageable number so there wasn't massive starvation. The AIs also might've considered it fitting since this was the faction that tried to exterminate them. However, after 5 millennia they wanted to pay back the descendants of their allies and perhaps let bygones be bygones with the Earth dwellers by starting the restoration of humanity.
Now it remains to be seen what the plan is or if any of what I wrote will come true, but perhaps Pate and Church were the real target all along. There may be more people like Pate on Earth, but I would hope Church is one of a kind and if he can be permanently incapacitated then any other Pates who subvert the seedlings can be easily dealt with by Alice. Although she's having a breakdown over the terrible possibilities of all this she is in a position she never had before. She can serve humanity by leading it. It's something she doesn't want to do, but will feel obligated to atone for all those she killed and prevent the mistakes of the past from repeating.
Exactly. I can almost hear Sedna muttering something like: "Ah, she gets like this every now and then; you'll get used to it!"
Possible weird explanation: Because she won't play ball, Alice has just been edited out of reality or has been absorbed into one of the simulations to keep her out of the way.
An interesting aspect of the internal reality is that it appears Gavia and Ardent cannot be transferred their without their pico/nano machines coming along, which suggests to me that the internal reality is something somehow physical, not a mere emulation in software.I assumed this from the beginning. When Laridia said the other realities, she specifically said they were not simulations. I think they actually create alternate realities.
So it's confirmed that some things like limbs can't grow back.Or she just really wants a plant arm. Seems unlikely given everything else they can do that they can't regrow limbs. They can literally alter reality around them at will.
So it's confirmed that some things like limbs can't grow back.
They are powered by black holes.
So it's confirmed that some things like limbs can't grow back.
These aren't gods, but merely empowered individuals.Sufficiently advanced individuals are indistinguishable from gods, are they not?
These aren't gods, but merely empowered individuals.Sufficiently advanced individuals are indistinguishable from gods, are they not?
Only if you believe in gods.What does belief have to do with it? I don't believe in gods, but if I saw a sufficiently powerful being, that's probably what I'd call it.
Meanwhile Sedna is banned from the future version of this forum because she can't pronounce the Praeses' name properly.
And it's the least the Praeses could do considering she sacrificed her arm to remove a serious threat and take down Church.
Cupressaceae wanted toAnd it's the least the Praeses could do considering she sacrificed her arm to remove a serious threat and take down Church.
Except Laridia already dismissed all three super soldiers as barely a threat. Ardent and Gavia were only a threat to the inner realities, and that threat was neutralized by virtue of just not letting them back in. Honestly I get the feeling Laridia was embodied just because Cupressaceae was tired of them trashing it's outer form and decided to set things straight. All in all it's being pretty reasonable and accommodating. But it still would probably like these disruptions to go away now.
An interesting aspect of the internal reality is that it appears Gavia and Ardent cannot be transferred their without their pico/nano machines coming along, which suggests to me that the internal reality is something somehow physical, not a mere emulation in software.
Sufficiently advanced individuals are indistinguishable from gods, are they not?I would say not. Sufficiently advanced individuals must still exist in space time, but the judeo-christian concept of an omnipotent creator at the very least implies existence outside space-time.
Only if you believe in gods.What does belief have to do with it? I don't believe in gods, but if I saw a sufficiently powerful being, that's probably what I'd call it.
Only if you believe in gods.What does belief have to do with it? I don't believe in gods, but if I saw a sufficiently powerful being, that's probably what I'd call it.
And you'd be making the same mistake as the Peruvians made when the Spanish Conquistador Pizarro arrived with better technology. They called the Spanish "Children of the Sun" and were so dazzled that they failed to object when their king Atahualpa was kidnapped, and despite the outrageous ransom being paid, was arbitrarily killed anyway.
You want to go mistaking good technology for godhood, please don't be my leader.
Well, suicide-by-black hole is probably the only guaranteed way for one of Alice's kind to kill themselves.Unless Alice does dive into the black hole, the door is open for a sequel should Jeph ever decide he wants to go there. Hell, it might even start with Alice and her Veggicraft popping out in a universe on the other side.
That said... Alice...? This wish says wonderful things about your conscience but... in the end, don't you think that you're running away from your crimes? It sounds to me that you're avoiding confronting a world where you are just another super-immortal rather that 'The Witch' and thus without the immunity your reputation has given you so far..
Well, suicide-by-black hole is probably the only guaranteed way for one of Alice's kind to kill themselves.
That said... Alice...? This wish says wonderful things about your conscience but... in the end, don't you think that you're running away from your crimes? It sounds to me that you're avoiding confronting a world where you are just another super-immortal rather that 'The Witch' and thus without the immunity your reputation has given you so far..
Thank you. History is full of people mistaking technology for godhood and paying for it later.And you'd be making the same mistake as the Peruvians made when the Spanish Conquistador Pizarro arrived with better technology. They called the Spanish "Children of the Sun" and were so dazzled that they failed to object when their king Atahualpa was kidnapped, and despite the outrageous ransom being paid, was arbitrarily killed anyway.Only if you believe in gods.What does belief have to do with it? I don't believe in gods, but if I saw a sufficiently powerful being, that's probably what I'd call it.
You want to go mistaking good technology for godhood, please don't be my leader.
That was... somewhat unsatisfying.
So we're not going to find out what happened when the nano bird fired the laser at the moon, are we. :/
There's often/usually some sort of large conceptual chasm between The God and a god, although perhaps that only depends on whose pantheon is being looked at by whom, and when in what circumstances.
Well, suicide-by-black hole is probably the only guaranteed way for one of Alice's kind to kill themselves.
That said... Alice...? This wish says wonderful things about your conscience but... in the end, don't you think that you're running away from your crimes? It sounds to me that you're avoiding confronting a world where you are just another super-immortal rather that 'The Witch' and thus without the immunity your reputation has given you so far..
I think I prefer stories that don't answer all of their own questions. They make for more interesting discussion.
I don't want to be anyone's leader! Also, sufficiently advanced goes a bit beyond good tech. Also, just because I think someone's a god doesn't mean I'm going to worship them.Only if you believe in gods.What does belief have to do with it? I don't believe in gods, but if I saw a sufficiently powerful being, that's probably what I'd call it.
And you'd be making the same mistake as the Peruvians made when the Spanish Conquistador Pizarro arrived with better technology. They called the Spanish "Children of the Sun" and were so dazzled that they failed to object when their king Atahualpa was kidnapped, and despite the outrageous ransom being paid, was arbitrarily killed anyway.
You want to go mistaking good technology for godhood, please don't be my leader.
Well, it's possible that they have some low level of regeneration. We know it exists, Ardent regrew his delightful tail after losing it. Alice seems almost fine after having her head partly crushed by Church. Also, for being more than 5000 years the super soldiers all are pretty youthful looking. That speaks to me that they have some level of cellular regeneration to stop the aging process. So I'm guessing that it's not outside the realm of possibility that Sedna could regrow her arm, it just might take a while to happen or require a lot of entropy that she doesn't want to burn. Not when there are alternatives. Besides, cool freaky plant arm.
seat of their intelligenceIn their butts :parrot:
My focus on the nano bird is that the strip spent time building up to it, both with the foreshadowing of Alice saying it stares at the moon and a rather detailed visual of it capturing Gavia, absorbing her nanomachines, and then firing a laser (whether it was a signal or attack) at the moon. Other stuff in the comic, such as the laser that made the magma Church was buried in, Alice and Sedna arguing about grudges, weird animal forms, Alice's flashbacks to the carnage and destruction, and the Blink itself (I feel it was sufficiently explained for the story's purposes; even Alice couldn't make heads or tails of it) were incidental enough to build the world up but not affect the story in a way that they needed resolution. Even Sedna shivving Church to death with her own arm was satisfactorily explained. The nano bird though...I feel too much was left unexplained here, and as a result it seemed to serve no purpose in driving the story, especially since Gavia got her nanomachines back anyway (in IMO a borderline deus ex), making their loss meaningless.So we're not going to find out what happened when the nano bird fired the laser at the moon, are we. :/
Far as I'm concerned, we never found out who did most of the stuff: the AIs are suggested by process of elimination, not by any actual evidence. And we don't know if it was one clever weakly godlike AI or a faction of them or the whole lot together, and whether their intentions are good or ill. And we don't know if they are responsible for the Nightwalker. Or why it was easier to reawaken Earth using Sims from all the Praeses rather than Earthlings. Or how they hacked the Sims's minds as well as bodies (Ardent still thinks he prevailed upon a friend.)
We also don't know if Alice's reality is more real than the simulations in the Praeses. Or who originally had the technology to link her and the other soldiers to a black hole. Or, if her reality isn't a simulation, how the Blink worked.
Laridia also seems to be claiming that all the Sims on the Praeses are generated, not uploaded from Earth people. And the Praeses don't seem to have any connection to the Blink guys. Am I misinterpreting that? If so, what happened to all the Earthlings at Blink time?
We don't really know how Alice zapped Church originally either. Or why. Or how many other soldier types are still around. Or what she really did to feel responsible for the deaths of billions. Or even if Church is going to regenerate, though that could easily be clear from a last panel.
I think we will be wondering and discussing most of these after tomorrow.
My problem is that he never really bothered to properly identify a primary plot. Was it why Gavia and Ardent came to Earth? Was it who and what Alice really was? Both of those things were addressed but only as a quick exposition burst.
Now, why is Laridia in panel 1?
It's been an interesting, fun ride as an aside to Jephs main work and I've really enjoyed it.
Who knows,, maybe he'll pick this up again sometime in the future - but whatever happens, I liked reading Alice Grove.
But suggesting, as some seem to be doing, that leaving so many questions unanswered is bad writing on Jeph's part... that seems pretty rude to me.
. In QC, it is always allowable (even necessary) to leave issues unaddressed because you want something you can write further strips about. However, in a distinct, self-contained story with a defined start and end, you can't do that. You have to be much clearer about developing plot, identifying stories and, if not wrapping everything up at least giving a clear pointer towards where things have goneThis strikes me as a particularly narrow and restrictive view of storytelling.
. In QC, it is always allowable (even necessary) to leave issues unaddressed because you want something you can write further strips about. However, in a distinct, self-contained story with a defined start and end, you can't do that. You have to be much clearer about developing plot, identifying stories and, if not wrapping everything up at least giving a clear pointer towards where things have gone
This strikes me as a particularly narrow and restrictive view of storytelling.
This strikes me as a particularly narrow and restrictive view of storytelling.
Such a strong contrast to the slow pace of things earlier in the comic is really jarring.
Maybe Jeph always did intend to leave things unsaid (after all, what reason do I have to doubt him on this?) but to have major plot devices like the Nightwalker unexplained is just inexcusable. It just makes me think that he decided to do it because it 'looked cool' but didn't think about how to integrate it into the story. Maybe others (professional writers who write novels for a living or who work for TV and movies) have done that too.
- I find the whole Patreon system and the kick-starters to fund books, the constant advertising etc quite unpleasant.
I get the strong feeling AG was killed because it was not worth it in financial terms, and that everything is for profit with this guy.
It's a change from just buying or not buying something, I suppose - but for the artist it's a modern way to revive the old system of patronage (hence the name) that artists at all levels relied on for centuries as a means to put food in their mouths.
Of course it is - it's his job that he does to be able to live. Do you not try to ensure that your job makes you enough money? ETC ETC
It's the "can't" and the "have to" in BenRG's post I object to. There's a difference between saying "I prefer stories that follow a traditional narrative structure" and saying "you can't deviate from traditional storytelling techniques, it's the only way stories can work."This strikes me as a particularly narrow and restrictive view of storytelling.
Possibly, but I think that's overstating it; he and I are probably not alone in feeling that the main themes of a story should be brought to some point by the time of the ending, even if that ending leaves further explanation and development open-ended.
You're expressing a typical modern very highly consumer-centric view, in which the supplier is paid not for their efforts or the quality of their work, but for whether it happens to tickle the consumer's fancy. Yes, that's part of the transaction between supplier and consumer - but it's only one part.
It's the "can't" and the "have to" in BenRG's post I object to. There's a difference between saying "I prefer stories that follow a traditional narrative structure" and saying "you can't deviate from traditional storytelling techniques, it's the only way stories can work."This strikes me as a particularly narrow and restrictive view of storytelling.
Possibly, but I think that's overstating it; he and I are probably not alone in feeling that the main themes of a story should be brought to some point by the time of the ending, even if that ending leaves further explanation and development open-ended.
To suggest that he was obligated to, that he shouldn't have dropped the project when he felt like it, would be pure entitlement.
This Patreon funded the creation of my stand-alone sci-fi comic Alice Grove, and will fund more projects in the future. Contributors will get special access to all sorts of neat features like early comic updates, bonus comics not available anywhere else, Q&As, and other fun stuff.
QuoteTo suggest that he was obligated to, that he shouldn't have dropped the project when he felt like it, would be pure entitlement.
From Mr Jacque's Patreon, today:QuoteThis Patreon funded the creation of my stand-alone sci-fi comic Alice Grove, and will fund more projects in the future. Contributors will get special access to all sorts of neat features like early comic updates, bonus comics not available anywhere else, Q&As, and other fun stuff.
People were most definitely paying for this comic. No, maybe he isn't "obligated" to provide them with a "proper" ending or to "resolve the plot threads" but if you are paying somebody to create, I don't think its unreasonable to expect things not to be abandoned mid-way. Its certainly not unreasonable to withdraw future patronage based on being told quite literally: Alice Grove is finished, and is as intended or I will drop projects whenever I feel like them.
That makes me feel that anything else produced by JJ will be to the same unfathomable yardstick. I am sure there is a list of people a mile long ready to continue paying the man and trying to support him but I am not one.
Know what Patreon usually covers? Flight costs, printing costs, accommodation, shipping fees. Which would probably be considerably higher since Jeph moved to Canada a couple of years ago.
Still, left wanting more. Whether that's a good thing or bad thing is more a matter of personal preference. For me, it's a good thing.
QuoteTo suggest that he was obligated to, that he shouldn't have dropped the project when he felt like it, would be pure entitlement.
From Mr Jacque's Patreon, today:QuoteThis Patreon funded the creation of my stand-alone sci-fi comic Alice Grove, and will fund more projects in the future. Contributors will get special access to all sorts of neat features like early comic updates, bonus comics not available anywhere else, Q&As, and other fun stuff.
People were most definitely paying for this comic. No, maybe he isn't "obligated" to provide them with a "proper" ending or to "resolve the plot threads" but if you are paying somebody to create, I don't think its unreasonable to expect things not to be abandoned mid-way. Its certainly not unreasonable to withdraw future patronage based on being told quite literally: Alice Grove is finished, and is as intended or I will drop projects whenever I feel like them.
That makes me feel that anything else produced by JJ will be to the same unfathomable yardstick. I am sure there is a list of people a mile long ready to continue paying the man and trying to support him but I am not one.
Registered just to post my thoughts. I’ve lurked here for a long time as although I am interested to know what others think about AG, I always found the discussion a little too pseudo high-brow, I’ve never felt the point of this comic was to raise discussion about the exact physics of a situation, more the ethics.
I had to post my thoughts however as I am so surprised that a group of people who are accustomed to picking apart the holes in the viability of some of the writers’ conceits in terms of physics, quantum physics, logistics etc aren’t being more critical of this abrupt ending to AG.
QuoteKnow what Patreon usually covers? Flight costs, printing costs, accommodation, shipping fees. Which would probably be considerably higher since Jeph moved to Canada a couple of years ago.Keeping it brief as I have little more to say on the matter: Perhaps this seemingly patronising response is indicative of the fact that you think most people would not realize this.
I think most people would understand exactly this. I especially understand the costs involved for multiple reasons, I have decades of first-hand experience in many of the fields including printing, publishing, music recording and self-employment.
And you're right, I don't want to fund his Patreon anymore as I feel that this abrupt end to AG has not just been slightly odd, its been completely cut-and-run.
(don't know how to quote people).
It was a fun little universe and had giant birds in it.And I don't recall seeing any dogs, cats, pigs, cows, or horses. Some lizards, a nasty-ass bat thing, and some goddamn big birds used as draft animals, but none of the domestic critters we share our world with.
What do you mean, "We?" I've been here a while. I agree with the people who think that the ending was kind of terrible, especially when compared to the mostly-pretty-good earlier story.Registered just to post my thoughts. I’ve lurked here for a long time as although I am interested to know what others think about AG, I always found the discussion a little too pseudo high-brow, I’ve never felt the point of this comic was to raise discussion about the exact physics of a situation, more the ethics.
I had to post my thoughts however as I am so surprised that a group of people who are accustomed to picking apart the holes in the viability of some of the writers’ conceits in terms of physics, quantum physics, logistics etc aren’t being more critical of this abrupt ending to AG.QuoteKnow what Patreon usually covers? Flight costs, printing costs, accommodation, shipping fees. Which would probably be considerably higher since Jeph moved to Canada a couple of years ago.Keeping it brief as I have little more to say on the matter: Perhaps this seemingly patronising response is indicative of the fact that you think most people would not realize this.
I think most people would understand exactly this. I especially understand the costs involved for multiple reasons, I have decades of first-hand experience in many of the fields including printing, publishing, music recording and self-employment.And you're right, I don't want to fund his Patreon anymore as I feel that this abrupt end to AG has not just been slightly odd, its been completely cut-and-run.
Sooooh ... basically you registered to tell us that AG sucks and that our discussion of AG sucks - mostly because we're having some nerdy fun with ze Deus-ex-entanglementz rather than appreciating the frustration you just had to communicate to us. That about the size of it?
Uhmmmmh, so ... you stayin' for lunch?
What do you mean, "We?" I've been here a while. I agree with the people who think that the ending was kind of terrible, especially when compared to the mostly-pretty-good earlier story.Registered just to post my thoughts. I’ve lurked here for a long time as although I am interested to know what others think about AG, I always found the discussion a little too pseudo high-brow, I’ve never felt the point of this comic was to raise discussion about the exact physics of a situation, more the ethics.
I had to post my thoughts however as I am so surprised that a group of people who are accustomed to picking apart the holes in the viability of some of the writers’ conceits in terms of physics, quantum physics, logistics etc aren’t being more critical of this abrupt ending to AG.QuoteKnow what Patreon usually covers? Flight costs, printing costs, accommodation, shipping fees. Which would probably be considerably higher since Jeph moved to Canada a couple of years ago.Keeping it brief as I have little more to say on the matter: Perhaps this seemingly patronising response is indicative of the fact that you think most people would not realize this.
I think most people would understand exactly this. I especially understand the costs involved for multiple reasons, I have decades of first-hand experience in many of the fields including printing, publishing, music recording and self-employment.And you're right, I don't want to fund his Patreon anymore as I feel that this abrupt end to AG has not just been slightly odd, its been completely cut-and-run.
Sooooh ... basically you registered to tell us that AG sucks and that our discussion of AG sucks - mostly because we're having some nerdy fun with ze Deus-ex-entanglementz rather than appreciating the frustration you just had to communicate to us. That about the size of it?
Uhmmmmh, so ... you stayin' for lunch?
Sooooooh - you also have a problem with the "pseudo-highbrow discussions" hereabouts? (cf. the quote right at the top of your post ...)"pseudo-highbrow?" There's noting pseudo about it, and it's High Unibrow, if you please.
Sooooooh - you also have a problem with the "pseudo-highbrow discussions" hereabouts? (cf. the quote right at the top of your post ...)"pseudo-highbrow?" There's noting pseudo about it, and it's High Unibrow, if you please.
Your response to Jeemy painted with a pretty broad brush. If you were solely responding to his comment about high-brow discussion, I'd have stayed out of it, but you didn't. You included many quotes covering a wide variety of topics, most of which were not a comment about the discussion here being a high-brow physics debate.What do you mean, "We?" I've been here a while. I agree with the people who think that the ending was kind of terrible, especially when compared to the mostly-pretty-good earlier story.Registered just to post my thoughts. I’ve lurked here for a long time as although I am interested to know what others think about AG, I always found the discussion a little too pseudo high-brow, I’ve never felt the point of this comic was to raise discussion about the exact physics of a situation, more the ethics.
I had to post my thoughts however as I am so surprised that a group of people who are accustomed to picking apart the holes in the viability of some of the writers’ conceits in terms of physics, quantum physics, logistics etc aren’t being more critical of this abrupt ending to AG.QuoteKnow what Patreon usually covers? Flight costs, printing costs, accommodation, shipping fees. Which would probably be considerably higher since Jeph moved to Canada a couple of years ago.Keeping it brief as I have little more to say on the matter: Perhaps this seemingly patronising response is indicative of the fact that you think most people would not realize this.
I think most people would understand exactly this. I especially understand the costs involved for multiple reasons, I have decades of first-hand experience in many of the fields including printing, publishing, music recording and self-employment.And you're right, I don't want to fund his Patreon anymore as I feel that this abrupt end to AG has not just been slightly odd, its been completely cut-and-run.
Sooooh ... basically you registered to tell us that AG sucks and that our discussion of AG sucks - mostly because we're having some nerdy fun with ze Deus-ex-entanglementz rather than appreciating the frustration you just had to communicate to us. That about the size of it?
Uhmmmmh, so ... you stayin' for lunch?
Sooooooh - you also have a problem with the "pseudo-highbrow discussions" hereabouts? (cf. the quote right at the top of your post ...)
Genuinely confused here: It looks a bit like your saying you're feeling excluded on account of being implicitly (but apparently erroneously) included?
To be honest, most, if not all of Jeemy's posts have come off as dismissive of the other points of view, or outright rude.Maybe it's just me, but I didn't see Jeemy's posts as 'Just wanting to crap over everything'. He was a bit smug at the beginning, yes, but then he posted opinions with reasonable, if rather long-form explanations for why and arguments backing up his opinion. I agree with most of what he had to say. He explained why he thought the ending was rushed, and why he felt like the Patreon system was bad for storytelling since it created an incentive to drop a story that wasn't providing immediate financial gains, at the cost of that story. (Whether or not this is actually why Jeph rushed the ending is a debate we can't answer, but it's an interesting idea that has some weight to it.)
There's no "us versus them" on this forum. You have discussions that can sometimes run a little hotter than normal, but often the tone is considerate because you do want to foster an environment where people can share their viewpoints. So while there might be discussions that get a little heated, the views of others are considered, taken on board and hopefully something is learned by both parties.
That's not going to happen when someone comes in and just wants to crap over everything. There's no chance of discussion, nothing to be learned because they cannot allow themselves to be open to the idea that there are merits to the other side of the discussion. That kind of mentality isn't healthy and is not conducive to healthy debate.
Your response to Jeemy painted with a pretty broad brush. If you were solely responding to his comment about high-brow discussion, I'd have stayed out of it, but you didn't. You included many quotes covering a wide variety of topics, most of which were not a comment about the discussion here being a high-brow physics debate.
Your post turned it into an 'us-vs-them' argument. "We people who have been on the forum for a while are in the right, and you newcomers disagreeing with us are not only wrong, but shouldn't be here because the things you want to discuss don't fit with what we do here."
After reading all this and interpreting what I saw in the way I explained above, I disagreed with :
1, The assertions both that Jeemy was just trying to say that 'our discussion sucks and Alice Grove sucks',
2, The implication that because Jeemy had signed up to join the discourse at this stage that he shouldn't have bothered sharing his opinions, and
3, The further implication that the ideas he was sharing were something that he was bringing into the discussion that hadn't previously existed and that without him the thread was just people having fun with deus-ex plot points, and nobody else shared Jeemy's frustrations.
With all that in mind, I posted in Jeemy's defense. I tried to keep it brief, but apparently my reasoning and point was lost, so now I'm reverting to my style of long-winded overexplanation so that my point can't possibly be lost.
I am a mod and will lock this thread if present trends continue.
Yep, ending was crap. Damn shame.
But Jeph hasn't given any indication he's going to turn any of those dangling threads into stories. A pity.
But suggesting, as some seem to be doing, that leaving so many questions unanswered is bad writing on Jeph's part... that seems pretty rude to me.
Why are we obliged to not say if we don't like something? That is incomprehensible to me.
Maybe Jeph always did intend to leave things unsaid (after all, what reason do I have to doubt him on this?) but to have major plot devices like the Nightwalker unexplained is just inexcusable. It just makes me think that he decided to do it because it 'looked cool' but didn't think about how to integrate it into the story. Maybe others (professional writers who write novels for a living or who work for TV and movies) have done that too. However, I wouldn't give them a pass for it either.
Now, I don't want to start an argument but I would ask others to respect that this is not the sort of story I like; it isn't the sort of writing style I like.
I feel that, if you have a discussion forum for a story, that necessarily includes allowing people to be critical if they can explain it reasonably.
Still a much better ending than Lost, though.
Still a much better ending than Lost, though.
Well, yeah, if THAT's your standard...
...so at least we got a good ending instead of being left hanging or confused because the story went on for too long and the creator never really had an ending in mind.
Unfortunately, that's not good writing.
Another issue with Pate and Church's late appearance in the story is that their presence and actions don't actually influence the unfolding plot in any material way.
The reason it matters that Ardent and Gavia are not unique is that it makes their journey and their purpose matter even less. What difference did everything they do make when nothing they did had any strong impact that wasn't already being done by all the other people sent to Earth weren't already doing?
And in regards to Church, remember there are multiple people of Gavia's strength on the planet that just got sent there from the Praeses, plus super tech about to become the norm. The fact that Church could die from a single bone through the neck when surprised, I don't think he could fight all of that at once.
(Plus there is the whole issue that Church and Pate are basically introduced with 1/4th of the pages left, they never really had room to breathe as villains before being killed).
Nothing in the comic they did really mattered, and nothing they did other than get to space actually gave them any answers. They didn't learn anything other than what they were told and what Alice then inferred from her knowledge (which we never get much of during the comic itself), to give us more exposition. And once they have the answers, there is nothing really ACTIONABLE to do with those answers. They just, oh, ok. Now we know. (And knowledge is half the battle!)
And the reason that it matters that there are no hints is that you want to make the whole ending about their search for knowledge, but the only thing that matters for that search is the last 5 minutes when someone tells them the answers. There is no slow reveal of bits and pieces of information, everything is just dumped on you at once. I can't believe people are defending Deus Exposition as good writing.