THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)
Comic Discussion => QUESTIONABLE CONTENT => Topic started by: Carl-E on 04 Dec 2010, 13:53
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For all the other characters we've been analyzing, no one's breached our skinny near-slacker boy directly.
OK, I really didn't mean for that to sound suggestive, but there you have it.
People have called him a cipher, attacking him as being spineless, unassertive, or worse, just boring. People have supported him showing that he really tried with Dora, as best he know how, given the limited information he had. Some posts have tried delving into his background and personality (OK, I wrote one, in the locked thread), but I think he deserves a bit more. He is, after all, the epicenter of the comic.
And so this thread.
What spawned the idea was Friday's comic. On an umpteenth reading (I get to the forums from the comic page, so I'm always re-reading), I had a good look at him on the phone with his mother. It's very telling...
"No, you don't have to come visit, I'm fine, I've got work, and ..." (translation: I'm an adult, I'm handling it. Thanks for being concerned, I'll be OK)
"What do you MEAN you already bought the tickets?! I don't -" (...think that's a very good idea, apparently. Translation: I have enough to handle already!)
But it's the next panel. Eyes shut, shoulders slumped so far they're practically on his hips. Total resignation. Mother always gets her way.
And I think that's at the heart of the issue. You never get completely out from under the thumb of your parents, psychologically speaking. But Marten's mom is a dominatrix, for chrissake! My mother is a tiny, mild mannered jewish lady who can manipulate her four boys like a chessmaster. I can't imagine what Marten's mom is like when she gets going...
But Marten can. I'm sure, having custody, she dominated his life thoroughly and completely, though probably unintentionallly. The cross country move after college may well have been a break for freedom as much as it was a miguided romantic move. That sigh of his says a lot, if it doesn't say it all. Translation? Here we go again...
And for an added punch, the emotional blackmail of the I-love-you-expecting-a-response that we know is at the other end of the phone, since we hear his "Yeah, love you too mom." Don't get me wrong, he loves his mother - who doesn't, at some level? But it's rarely that simple.
And of course, he's attracted to strong females. Freud may ave been a quack, but there's the germ of truth in a lot of what he spewed - it always comes back to the mother.
So, have at it. We'll see what comes Monday, but until then, it's time to dig into this poor boy's wretched soul and see what's lying beneath his little indy heart!
Note: If you're just gonna tell us who you think he's gonna fuck next, at least support your opinion. Don't be Marigold "because it'd be sexy sex!" Farmer. Or the bearhat guy.
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My awesome scenario that I will not state because it is so awesome aligns well with the dominating mother theory.
That's all I will say at this juncture.
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You make a good case!
Marten strikes me as a people pleaser. Maybe he's reacting to the bullying he got in school by assuming that if he's nice enough people won't beat him up. He took physical abuse from Old Faye in stride, as if it were what he was used to.
Getting weirder, we know he's Veronica's only son, but nothing has ever said he's an only child. It's canonically possible, though realistically unlikely, that he has one or more sisters. If so, dollars to doughnuts she/they are older than Marten.
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He does have the more passive attitude of a youngest sibling than the "it's all up to me" attitude of an only child, doesn't he?
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If Veronica was a truly dominating mother, there would have been a deep, deep schism cut between them when he moved to Northampton, and Marten probably wouldn't have been looking reasonably pleased to see her when she first arrived to visit. Also, she would have been way more antagonistic towards Faye. Look at their interaction together here (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=459). Veronica is relaxed and reasonable. She even says "My son is a grown man and can make his own decisions." Not something a control freak would say. The threat against Faye comes after she speaks as a rational human being; only after that does she let the protective mother take over.
Throughout the visit, Veronica is relaxed and rational. When they have some alone (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=448) time (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=449), Marten seems quite calm and comfortable around her. I don't think Veronica was a domineering mother. Something tells me she reserved her domineering side for her job only.
I'm surprised you didn't say anything about Marten's father, Henry. I think Marten takes after his father a lot more than his mother. Marty's parents got divorced when Henry couldn't hide his sexuality anymore. Though we don't know all the gory details, I think it's reasonable to assume that Henry was hiding from himself his whole life. Assuming he's in his 50's now (which I think is reasonable), he grew up when it still wasn't particularly awesome to be gay. Think about it what Veronica says here (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=434). "We both wanted a family" most likely means "I wanted a family, and he wanted to be straight." My point is, Henry went through a lot to try and pacify others rather than think about what he really wanted, and there's a lot of that in Marten. Veronica obviously isn't like that; she couldn't do her job if she was.
He does have the more passive attitude of a youngest sibling than the "it's all up to me" attitude of an only child, doesn't he?
Neither of Marten's parents seem like the type to put undue pressure on him, which would eliminating the "up to me" attitude. I'm an only child and thanks to my parent's hilariously low expectations, I don't have that drive. I think the attitude towards life a child has is more up to the way the parents treat the child than in what order they were born or if they're the only one.
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What we've seen of Marten's upbringing was nurturing. Someone on a power trip would never have knitted the Worry Hat.
His mother is a successful entrepreneur, and seems highly confident. Dora said in 428 "Well, you seem to be most comfortable around confident, assertive ladies". I bet his mom was assertive without being domineering.
Though, notice how intimidated Faye was around her, even before the Bosch remark. Apparently Martenmom is one of those people who has a Presence, even when she's not at work.
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Possibly, but I think in that case, Faye was being her own worst enemy. She was worried about what Ms. Reed would think of her from the get-go, and just worked herself up into full blown intimidation.
Of course, in a case like that, a little presence goes a long way!
And Iduguphergrave, I have to agree with you, Marten probably got a lot of his personality from his dad. I was really focusing too much on the mother. It's the dynamic between the two that matters most!
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We know he inherited his dad's sense of timing.
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Very good & insightful once again, CarlE and others; Marten's the core and most likeable character, yes, even more than Hanners. (Sorry! I love Hannelore! But which would you rather have as a close friend, able to go places & do things with?)
Now I'm eager to see his mother dish out some fear and pain to Dora. I liked Dora for a long time, she was more mature, but gradually became controlling and in denial of her issues. As Faye put it, "You destroyed something good for the stupidest possible reason!" Perhaps a kick from someone she hurt (by proxy) along with therapy, could help her in the long run.
Just to defend Sigmund Freud, though; he may have gotten some of it wrong*, but his core insights (and even tentative brain map, see a recent Scientific American article) were shockingly accurate for their time. (Many people are still shocked by honest analysis of our deep/sexual natures.)
* medical science was still crude back then; give him a break
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I said this somewhere else, but here goes for here, too. Being a Dominatrix is/was a job for Veronica. Assuming that whatever she draws on to play that role—and that's what it is—is at the forefront of her personality is neither fair nor very likely to be accurate. Someone who is actually a controlling bitch would, I suspect, have a problem, sooner or later, with playing the role because they'd get to into it and go too far. It's kind of like the 'Full Special" Kirk Lazarus talks about in Tropic Thunder "Never go full retard. You don't buy that? Ask Sean Penn, 2001, "I Am Sam." Remember? Went full retard, went home empty handed." (Although in the Family Friendly dub I saw, he says "Full Special", which is actually funnier). In other words, if Veronica got that heavcily intop the character she played, she'd probably not be as successful as she seems to be, nor, perhaps, be able to take it as lightly as she does.
If you're going with the Freud Dude (pronounced Frood Dude), then I suppose to know Marten we must know Veronica. What do we know?
She's assertive, but not overly aggressive.
She at least claims Marten is an adult. In any case, giving him the lotion indicates she has no qualms with Marten being a sexual being, which I in turn infer to mean she doesn't think of him strictly as 'her baby.'
Can be fairly oblivious. Otherwise, one would think a sex worker would've spotted the signs Henry was gay. By that, I mean that at least Veronica should have been exposed to enough closeted and otherwise persons to have a clue.
Goes for what she wants, much more than her son does.
Is nurturing, as Is it cold points out. Contrast her to Hanner's mother, or Dora's.
She's a realist, or at least seems to take things in stride.
Put it all together and—Christ I don't know. But there it is.
I do have a suspicion now, though, about why Marten doesn't want Veronica to visit. She's a realist, and also seems to be a person who believes in dealing with things and moving on. I suspect (the Free Lunch Episode is a clue to this) that is exactly what Marten doesn't want to do. I've being thinking about various people carrying on about his lack of achievement and drive, and one thought occurred to me. Marten doesn't know what he wants to do, where he wants to go, or who he wants to be. The one thing he had, however, the thing everyone—or Tai, Steve, Faye, Hanners, at least—admired and wished they had was his relationship with Dora. It may very well have been his rock, the one thing Marten thought was actually working out in his life. Only he couldn't hold on to that, either, just like he couldn't have the relationship he wanted (or, to be fair, he at least thought he wanted) with Faye, and just like he lost the girl he followed out East.
God, that'd be enough to make me want to break down, and I don't think I could handle someone showing up in the middle of the smoking ruins and telling me "You have to deal with it and move on." That's exactly what I wouldn't want to do, because once I did, it would be completely, totally, over. More than that, now Steve has Cossette, Faye has Angus, and Hanners has that stupid damned pretend date. And I, the one they'd been envying, I'd have nothing.
Okay, I'm depressing myself now, and I'm just thinking about it. It's Marten's life. Is it any wonder he wants to crawl into a hole and pretend it isn't happening?
Now, time to take a break and remember this fellow only exists in Jeph's noggin. Because…
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Oh man - I didn't think about it that way, but that makes a lot of sense. I bet that's pretty damn close to what Marten's feeling right now. Poor guy :-(
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Yes, good insight (as always) rf; if i was in Marten's shoes i would need quite a lot more time than this to process these changes. No way i'd be ready yet for supermom to sweep in and take over, in whatever sense she does with him.
I mean, he hasn't even gotten drunk with Steve or Jimbo yet!
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Now, of course, I'm thinking about my running pet theory that Pintsize does the things Marten wishes he could do, but dares not. If that's true, the guy must really hate himself, since I honestly can't think of a better expression of self-loathing than to even contemplate Marten would want to engage with that…set up in order to keep up the pretense nothing has changed.
Given the expression on Marten's face in the last panel, I think I really may be onto something.
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Sort of a moral Picture of Dorian Gray?
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I just figured he was starting to drink himself into a coma to forget what he'd just seen Pintsize do, but if it was to...steel himself for...no, I refuse to finish that thought.
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Thank you.
Sort of a moral Picture of Dorian Gray?
Except the picture never changes, either...
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Yes, stasis. So is the first, crucial step for Marten's personal growth turning Pintsize off and taking ownership of his perverted desires?
Damn, another idea just sprang forth. Marten needs Pintsize to express his perversions, because he can't, since that would make Marten into one of the people Veronica made a living from—or at least the same as them. People he (secretly?) loathes and does not wish to be. But by putting this part of himself 'away,' Marten has also locked away his drive—his passion. Hence his aimlessness and inability to do anything about it.
Gee, Carl, aintcha glad you made this thread so I can run amok in it?
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That makes a fascinating amount of sense.
Guy's pretty repressed, though, if even his private porn collection is vanilla.
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What, it's not possible that he simply prefers vanilla porn? That few if any of the typical fetishes appeal to him (ESPECIALLY if they remind him of his mother's business?)
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Gee, Carl, aintcha glad you made this thread so I can run amok in it?
That was the point! Not you specifically, but running amok in general...
As for vanilla Marten, how do you rebel against the wild? Go conservative...
after all, how many children of hippies vote Republican? or join the 700 club...
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How well does such a self-limiting form of conservatism (whatever the cause) fit in with being an 'indie' rock musician?
The only 'Republican' rock musician I can think of offhand is that psycho Nugent, who, so far as I can tell, isn't so much a conservative as a raving nutter whose insanity expresses itself in a manner that seems conservative, or at least what passes for such these days* . In other words, it doesn't limit him.
Naturally, there have been and are persons who find a well of creativity in the tension created between their imposed (and especially self-imposed) conservatism and whatever parts of themselves doesn't really fit those ideals. But if Marten, instead of suppressing his impulses, has managed to transfer them to Pintsize, that's not going to happen for him. The tension has been (at least up until now) diffused.
Incidentally, one little inconsistency has bothered me for a while now—that Marten pawned his guitar to move East, but either kept Pintsize or acquired him instead of buying an instrument. If Marten needs Pintsize for this diffusion, though, that could explain that course of action—the axe could go, but not the placebo (I'm not sure if that's the proper word, but it will do for now). Of course, in the process, I may be making Marten into "Corky" Withers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_%281978_film%29)** —in other words, a raving nutcase far beyond the likes of Faye or Dora or even Hanners. That's probably a little too extreme a reading of his character. But that's da breaks.
*I suspect Al Haig, for example, would've probably said go fuck yourself, you god-damned dirty hippie
**Anyone else remember the trailer for that film? It scared the bejesus out of me. And, thanks to the magic of Wikipedia, I discover I wasn't the only one. Of course, now I don't get it at all. What am I missing?
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Of course he had to keep Pintsize - Pintsize is family.
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Where I come from, that has a whole different meaning (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=a%20member%20of%20the%20family&defid=1059516)!
Raoullefere, ask Tergon about the ventriloquist dummy sometime.
You won't get a coherent answer...
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The only 'Republican' rock musician I can think of offhand is that psycho Nugent, who, so far as I can tell, isn't so much a conservative as a raving nutter whose insanity expresses itself in a manner that seems conservative, or at least what passes for such these days* . In other words, it doesn't limit him.
Alice Cooper... Meatloaf... Ice-T... Johnny Ramone... no one really "indie" comes to mind, though, and the first two are kind of vehemently anti-political, and the third is... not exactly a blue dog.
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Like you said, the first two are anti-political. I might add Frank Zappa to them. Ice-T, I don't know about. I forgot about dear old Johnny.
Raoullefere, ask Tergon about the ventriloquist dummy sometime.
You won't get a coherent answer...
I'm not sure I see the point of asking, then. I mean, if I could see him spew his drink, that'd be different.
pwhodges, are you trying to tell me there aren't those out there who'd sell their siblings to follow twu wuv's sparkly path? If Bella Swan had a sister, that kid'd be on the market before the poor girl could turn around three times.
Actually, looking at them from a critical standpoint, the Anthro-PCs are one of the most ambiguous parts of QC for me. Of course, on one level it's easy to accept them as pee-pul and close the book. But they're also a great deal of fun to consider as character auxiliaries (or perhaps symbiotic characters is a better term)—alternate manifestations of their owners, if you will. Momo is a particular favorite of mine to look at that way.
I think the way Jeph has incorporated them into the reality of the strip may very well be unique, too. I can think of numerous comics where animals, stuffed animals, toy robots and various other what-nots (like that potted cactus thing—I forget where that appears) fill this alt-character role, usually for adolescents, and of course strips with fully characterized robots abound—Star Wars and Lost in Space (and their sources) derivatives, for the most part, with the occasional fully Asmimovian sort thrown in. Jeph's AnthroPCs seem to walk a line between those two roles that fascinates me.
Did I just de-rail the thread?
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No, I think you just decided to create a thread entitled, "Pintsize's fundamental character".
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Which may or may not be fundamental to Marten's character.
...and we're back!
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What, it's not possible that he simply prefers vanilla porn? That few if any of the typical fetishes appeal to him (ESPECIALLY if they remind him of his mother's business?)
There I was commenting on the theory that Marten is a raging bag of perversions like Pintsize. If he is, then his vanilla porn is harder to explain. On the other hand if we go by his secrets, not just his behavior, then the evidence is saying he's vanilla.
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Or it may be that vanilla porn is the only thing he can safely keep on his computer.
Pintsize can access his laptop + Pintsize being creepily malevolent + friends who could be squicked out = Not keeping anything on your laptop you couldn't live with someone finding out.
Seriously, I don't see why Marten doesn't fit Pintsize with a restraining bolt, or at least secure his laptop better so Pintsize doesn't have the ability to spill his wiring about what Marten looks at.
Also, is it ever mentioned why Pintsize collects all this disturbing porn? Marten doesn't seem like he'd encourage that, at all.
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Seriously, I don't see why Marten doesn't fit Pintsize with a restraining bolt, or at least secure his laptop better so Pintsize doesn't have the ability to spill his wiring about what Marten looks at.
Because he's an AnthroPC, not an astromech droid.
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Seriously, I don't see why Marten doesn't fit Pintsize with a restraining bolt, or at least secure his laptop better so Pintsize doesn't have the ability to spill his wiring about what Marten looks at.
Because he's an AnthroPC, not an astromech droid.
I meant literally putting a bolt through him for restraining purposes. Maybe attached to a cinderblock.
What?
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That's what duck tape is for! :lol: :-o :evil:
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Personally, my theory is that Veronica got the AnthroPC for Marten as a graduation present. This would mean he owned him all the way through the chase-Vicky-across-the-country thing.
Of course, that would mean that he's way obsolete as a computing machine, but that's another story.
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Why Pintsize collects the porn is a good question.
Idea 1: he looks up to humans and collects porn as an homage to their creativity in producing it, as suggested in 1435.
Idea 2: he looks down on humans and collects the worst spewings of humans so he can look at them and gloat about how superior he is.
Idea 3: he thinks porn is important because the Internet links to it so often.
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Idea 4: He's a horny little pervert!
AnthroPC's, in addition to self-awareness and the illusion of free will, also have a sex drive.
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As documented in the newspost to strip 1658.
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I wonder what sort of bus a sex drive uses?
But yes, akronnick, I suppose the debate I've having is whether or not Marten and Pintsize are one person who feels good to be alive*. And, of course, which one is Dr. Heckyll and which one is Mr. Jive. Anyway, I haven't drifted Carl's thread.
Yet.
*Although obviously not in #1812.
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The real question is what kind of sex the bus driver has...
:mrgreen:
Wait, what?
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you mean you've never wondered whether the sex bus was right-hand or left-hand drive?
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For all the other characters we've been analyzing, no one's breached our skinny near-slacker boy directly.
Marten started off as an indie/hipster variant of the Nice Guy™ and has gradually grown toward being a more normal, respectable person (though he could definitely use a bit more spine, but I suspect he'll be developing one shortly unless Jeph decides to override that in favor of old-hat humor). This was addressed in fair depth in an older thread (where I was arguing that Marten shared a lot with the animal of the same name).
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raoulle, if you derail the thread, i'd still follow it. Kudos for insightful posts dissecting Marten, and the Anthro-PCs!
the potted cactus (which talks when its owner is drunk) is in Girls With Slingshots, one of Jeph's favorite webcomix.
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Pretty sure the cactus talks all the time; she only hears him hen she's drunk.
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Such is the mystery of McPedro!
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I suppose I can throw something I put in the weekly over here—is Marten too single-minded when he decides he vaguely fancies* a girl? Is that really what gets him into trouble? For example, by the time he noticed Sara, it seems to me he was really already 'stuck' on Faye. Might've saved himself some frustration—not to mention injuries—had he pursued both girls.
*I have no ethnic(?) right to use this verb. However, it saves me from using the American 'like' and feeling as though I were back in Junior High. Don't too cocky, you lot—you still manage to make kissing sound as though you're blowing your noses. Scorn!
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Shy person disease, maybe? So much difficulty working up the nerve to talk to girls that he expects too much when he actually makes contact?
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I don't think that's quite it. I get the feeling it's more of "the one" syndrome. I don't think Marten is exactly conscious of it, but I do get the idea that somewhere in his brain that's what's going on. Whosname in California was "The One," so he followed her East. Then Faye was "The One," and so Marten endured seemingly endless putoffs, not to mention the punches, waiting on her. WHen Dora entered the picture, the idea "hey, why not date Dora some while I'm seeing where things go with Faye" never came up. I realize that dating co-workers, or, worse, boss and underling, not a good idea, but my point is I don't think Marten ever really considered it. What he did consider was whether or not to go with Dora or Faye—in other words, which was "The One."
Then in the relationship with Dora, I don't think the idea of things ending ever entered Marten's head, even though Dora mentioned it quite a few times. As far as Marten was concerned, Dora was "The One." I'm not accusing him of having marriagitus; I simply don't think he saw things ending.
That's why I feel Dora's fears are silly, so far as reality goes*, and why I became quite cross when some naive twit (okay, that's not fair) someone complained that Marten wasn't committed to the relationship. He didn't push it, because pushing is apparently not Marten—it's entirely possible, I suppose, that if Dora had wanted, they'd never have gotten beyond dating—but I think he was committed, so long as committing means "I'm in this, I am, and I ain't studyin' gettin' out, me bucko."** Various and sundry may have wanted Marten to do more, to push things along, to take it to the next level and all that sort of jive, but as far as being committed to what existed between himself and Dora, Marten was there to stay.
If you doubt this, note how surprised Marten is every time Dora thinks he is trying to break up with her, or change her, or what-have-you. And, Jesus, he met the parents. That guy was set, and if Dora hadn't a cog loose about suchlike, she'd'a had him as long as she wanted.
*Which is, of course, kind of the point.
**Don't question the sea-dog slang. It's not worth it.
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I think I follow you but I'm not sure.
"The One syndrome" is different from monogamy in that it can happen even when there's no relationship? Or it's premature overcommitment?
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Bondage, Black Hoodies and
Bad Bands: The Psyche of Marten Reed by Kazukagii
Marten Reed, the protagonist of one Questionable Content webcomic, has been with us since the beginning. Skinny, pale, and meek in appearance. Adrift in a world where he can find no goal or aspiration, and constantly second guessing his own decisions. A fan of all the bands you've never heard of, and author of a blog nobody but his mother reads. We know this, but to truly understand what it is that drives "Marten", we must go back, back to those formative years. These will be our building blocks, with which we will try to create a picture of Marten.
A word of warning: some speculation has been made on the part of the author, due to various gaps within the backstory of Marten Reed. While you may be mesmerized by the vocabulary of your humble author, do note that all information should be taken, as always, with some fine salt crystals.
Chapter One: Development, Divorce, and More Alliteration
Little is known about Marten's early years, though one can assume that being raised as an only child Marten received ample attention from his parents. Also due to his mother's occupation as a fetish model, and his father's (at the time hidden) homosexuality, It is not too far a leap to assume that Marten was aware of many sexual topics early on in his life (though we do not know how early) and was taught to be open to many different beliefs and lifestyles. These assumptions have their basis in the series canon, as Marten has not been shown to have any prejudices against homosexual relationships or fetishes, and even offered to teach Tai how to properly use bondage gear. It can be assumed, then, that Marten had much more knowledge of sexual matters than most his age.
At age 10, Marten's parents were divorced, as a result of his father being unable to hide his homosexuality any longer. It goes without saying that all children this age are devastated by parents' separation, however even more tragic is that it happened under such circumstances. It has been indicated that Marten's parents separated on poor terms, however they eventually reconciled, which will be addressed later. This incident no doubt left a profound impact on Marten's life, but in what way? To this, we can put forth several assumptions. First: it may have shown Marten how devastating the effects of lying about oneself can have. Marten has never, to this author's knowledge, lied about his beliefs in a serious manner, nor has he attempted to hide thing that he felt were crucial to a relationship (regardless of whether the other party saw it as crucial). Marten saw how bad a lie in a relationship could be, and tried to avoid this as much as possible. Second: Marten learned that no relationship is perfect. While we will later discuss how Marten has sadly come to learn this fact over time, this incident may very well have planted the first seeds that any relationship, no matter how solid, can fail in an instant. This divorce may very well have become a point of comparison for Marten in future breakups. Though there are surely many other effects of this divorce that have given rise to the Marten we know today, we shall leave the topic where it is for now.
In summary, we can see that Marten grew up in a very different climate than most of his peers. Both his mother's job, and her openness about it, may have to Marten's own openness and acceptance of different views. His father, whom eventually ended his marriage due to his inability to pretend to be heterosexual any longer, may have taught Marten that it is never good to lie to oneself. Finally the crippling divorce of his parents may have shown Marten both how powerful a lie can be in the demise of a relationship, and how volatile even the most seemingly rock solid relationships can be.
Next Time: Chapter Two: Farewell California, Greetings Heartbreak
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*slow clap*
8-)
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Well, I was going to reply to Raoullefere's interesting "There can be only One" theory, but then Kazukagii's term paper showed up.
This, by the way, may well be Wiki-worthy (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,24872.0.html). Can't wait to see the rest, snce I've put forth a theory or two of my own based on his upbringing and his parent's divorce.
Anyway, back to Marten's "There can be only One" problem, which Kazukagii's subsequent chapters may still address. There's a comic that I was looking for but couldn't find where he talks about this; I think he's talking with Tai, but that may be why I couldn't find it. He lists all the other available women, and why he couldn't possibly even think about pursuing them (N\not even Faye!), now that he's involved with Dora. It's pretty much a rationalization of his actions/inactions. Any help?
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I think I follow you but I'm not sure.
"The One syndrome" is different from monogamy in that it can happen even when there's no relationship? Or it's premature overcommitment?
It's more akin to tunnel-vision, but I suppose premature overcommitment comes close. The reason I don't like the term overcommitment is that to me it implies a level of fixation that's not there. Marten doesn't live, eat sleep and breathe each woman so much as he simply doesn't seriously consider others as possibilities. It's as though he won't allow himself to really 'see' them—to fully explore the idea of he and this girl as an item, if you will. He's involved with (on whatever level) who he's involved with, and that's that.
Note that Marten may well have been 'prematurely over-committed' to the girl (I can never recall her name) he followed East. That might explain why she dodn't want to continue the relationship in the first place. But he wasn't so with Faye—for example, Marten toyed with the idea of dating Sara early on, but never seriously considered it.
Yes, Carl, need to find that strip. I may look later, but my kettle's whistling.
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Raoullefere, your posts astound me for the sheer volume of footnotes. :laugh:
Marten has actually said in earlier strips when questioned about his relationship with Faye that he can't focus on more than one love interest at a time. That was how the whole Dora thing "blindsided" him at the time of her kiss on the rooftop.
EDIT: You're thinking of Vicky. She of the milk-stained sweater.
And AWESOME summary, Kaz.
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jwhouk, it's how I think. Two other thoughts are always crowding me while I wrestle with one. My brain runs both very quickly and horribly slowly at the same time, and often in too many directions. This plays merry hell with my own writing.
Can't find the comic Carl was talking about, but I did find this (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=755). I'm almost certain, just because of the length of that thread that someone brought this up in that massive Weekly when Dora dumped Marten, but I didn't see it*. Anyway, I guess Marten's batting a thousand.
I said a year or so back (maybe more) that Jeph is a helluva foreshadower. And got ridiculed for my pains. Suck it, my critics! (I think he knows what he's going to do before he does, if that makes any sense).
I also found this (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=765), where Marten expounds on his personal relationship theory. Oppose that to Sven, who never makes it out of the shrubbery, at least until recently.
*I got deathly ill—flu and a sinus infection—and stopped following it. By the time I got well enough to care about QC, much less the forums, reading it would've been like eating homemade pancakes that've been in the fridge for four days—slightly gelatinous and not worth the calories.
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Carl-E, are you thinking of the strip where Marten says he doesn't fantasize about any of the female cast members, until Dora asks about Raven?
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That's probably it... for some reason I thought he was talking to Tai in the Library, probably why I couldn't find it.
Still can't, writing another exam...
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Marten has actually said in earlier strips when questioned about his relationship with Faye that he can't focus on more than one love interest at a time.
I can sure relate to that. But "the One syndrome" reminds me of the (admittedly simplistic) generalization from a few generations ago:
Hoggamous higgamous, men are polygamous
Higgamous hoggamous, women monogamous
Possibly (sticking my neck out here) part of Marten's relationship dynamics include not only acceding to womens' power, but even their monogamy...? Not that there's anything wrong with that :angel: but it sure distinguishes him from the old Sven, and many other guys.
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Chapter Two: Farewell California, Hello Heartbreak
While details on Marten's early years are sparse, much more information is readily available on his high school and college years and we can infer much based on this information.
After his divorce, it is likely that Henry moved out of the household, however he seems to have not left for Florida until after Marten's move to Massachusetts. Despite this Marten most likely saw very little of his father during his teenage years, considering his mother's custody. For a young man going through puberty, lack of a father can become frustrating. Though we can be assured that Veronica had no qualms with explaining to Marten anything he wanted to know, asking such personal questions of an opposite sex parent becomes increasingly embarrassing as time goes on. Thus while Marten may have initially been open to sexually natured questions with his mother, he most likely pulled away from this later in life. It can even be considered that, since Veronica was so open about such matters, that Marten took steps to specifically cloak these details from her. This hypothesis will later be used to explain why Marten tried to hide his porn interests, and became so enraged when his partner Dora, whom he had before been very open with, went against his wishes.
Pulling back to his teenage years, puberty or not Marten would have become much closer with his mother, while not having much time to spend with his father. While he has been seen to be on good terms with both his parents, Veronica no doubt played a much greater role in shaping the Marten we know today. After all a dominatrix mother, even in character only, is a force to be reckoned with. While perhaps not to the point of smothering, Marten was no doubt openly controlled by his mother. Growing up in such an environment most likely taught Marten to recognize “when he's lost”, which might give rise to his acceptance of many unfavorable events over the course of the comic. When mother says no, it means no, and so Marten learned to understand when he has lost his say. It would have been very easy then for Marten to settle into a life of doing what his mother told him to do. With minimal need to think beyond passing his classes, Marten's teenage years involved little critical decision making, the first of the two part theory we will construct on why the Marten we know today is so indecisive in nature. In fact even the smallest disruption in Marten's life, such as being bullied at school, gave rise to his need for a "worry hat" to protect himself. Shielded by his mother, Marten not only became indecisive, but perhaps even fragile. Without making decisions, and with little to do outside of listen to his music, Marten was most likely your typical slacker child. Though at some point he did learn to play the guitar (no doubt a gift from his mother, or even perhaps from his father, in an attempt of bonding) this still played on what seemed to be the only thing even remotely important to Marten: music. Years passed and Marten eventually went to college, where again his major reflected his only apparent interest: music. Majoring in Music History and Critical Theory, Marten could very well have been the poster boy for the hipster, slacker generation he professed to belonging to.
Then in the last semester of college, Marten was introduced to Vicky What seems to have been Marten's first love, it was also the first time his mentality regarding relationships was tested, after the divorce of his parents. When Vicky wanted to move, and began to mope around Marten, he was stated to have “chalked it up to happy relationship paranoia.” We can translate this as: “Not all relationships are like my parents.” A combination of optimism and naivete on Marten's part, that so long as he did not repeat his father's mistakes, his relationships would not fail like his. However no matter how perfect the boyfriend he was, the girlfriend has just as much power to drop the bomb that ends the relationship, as Marten sadly learned. When Vicky, the woman Marten loved, said that she would be moving all the way across the country, Marten had come face to face with something: a life choice. For the first time, Marten was up to the challenge of picking his destination at a crossroads of his life. With the help of a little scotch, Marten finally made his first great choice: to move along with Vicky to Massachusetts Veronica and Henry “freaked” in Marten's own words. As any world-weary parent would realize, this was a choice doomed to fail. Not to mention that Marten was no usurping the control, however light, Veronica held over him. Marten was dictating the terms of his own life, for better of for worse. Unfortunately, it would turn out for the worse. Vicky abandoned him soon after his move, and Marten was left heartbroken, thousands of miles from the comfort of home. The results of this move are the framework for the second – and most critical – part of our theory on Marten's indecisiveness. The first was that he grew up in an environment where he had to make little, if any major decisions. The second came from the fact that the first time he made a choice, it ended in disaster. From Marten's point of view not only was he terrible at making choices, but things seemed to go better for him when he let others – like his mother – make them.
Marten would eventually emerge from the wreckage of the disaster, but not unscathed. Marten's love was gone, but he was not going back to California. After all the only thing worse than our failures, is having them rubbed in our faces. Deciding to start a new life, Marten struck out on his own. We can assume that it would be around this point that Marten would have purchased Pintsize (perhaps with some financial help from his certainly worried parents) in the search for companionship. Over time Marten would find both employment and an apartment, as well as develop a small circle of friends (Steve and Jimbo). Leaving Vicky, and all his trauma behind him, Marten looked to be close to a fresh start. However he still carried the past with him, and it was guaranteed to affect him down the road.
Next time: From Office Bitch to Dora's Bitch: The Marten We Knew Then
Believe it or not this is actually quite a bit of fun for me.
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did someone order this comic?
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=962
edit: didn't marten say his mom bought pintsize for him as a graduation gift
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That's half of it. I'm pretty sure I was conflating this one with the one that Isitcoldinhere was mentioning. The two together pretty well support Raoullefere's hypothesis, though.
I gotta tell you, I had the same problem when I was out in the dating pool. When I was with someone, I wouldn't have recognized a come-on if it bit me in the ass.
Mind you, they never did. Well, if they did I didn't notice... which is the whole point.
And Kazukagii, is this a senior thesis or something? If not, you really have wayyy too much free time...
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Considering I have two days of no work or class and my dorm is pretty much abandoned at the moment, "wayyy too much free time" is a pretty good description.
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Don't feel bad about not noticing female come-ons, Carl. I didn't notice them either; in fact my wife had to be as aggressive as Dora to get my attention, that's how oblivious I was to her interest (didn't help that other women around me flirted just to flirt and denied everything when I tried to follow up-ah, college). Besides, female flirting is designed to be deniable. If you don't notice, no serious harm done. If they change their mind, then they were never flirting with you in the first place far as they're concerned ("Hey I was just being friendly").
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edit: didn't marten say his mom bought pintsize for him as a graduation gift
To the best of my knowledge, no.
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newbie with a comment on today's comic (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1818). This thread seemed like a relevant place to say it. I am immensely glad to see Marten show some sign of being fallible and human. Thus far he's really been painted as sort of a saintlike protagonist. He was long overdue for some form of fuckup, and I think this one was very appropriate. Bravo.
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newbie with a comment on today's comic (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1818). This thread seemed like a relevant place to say it. I am immensely glad to see Marten show some sign of being fallible and human. Thus far he's really been painted as sort of a saintlike protagonist. He was long overdue for some form of fuckup, and I think this one was very appropriate. Bravo.
Marten's messed up plenty, but usually it's as a result of his "nice guy" nature (or façade?) not contrary to it. So in that sense you're right and adds to him as a character. For better or worse is yet to be determined.
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The first part of your bio seemed pretty solid, Kazukagii, but this part is
shaking in the breeze getting a tad speculative. We've still got no solid evidence Veronica controlled Marten. She could just as well have tried to overcompensate for things not working out with Henry and tried to be so supportive while she considered Marten a child (I suspect this changed once Marten reached his majority) that Marten never really had to try to do anything. A ton of single mothers do this, and when the kid leaves the nest, he has simply no idea how to fend for himself. Marten's not that bad, but I think a case could be made for him showing some of the signs. For one, he never seems to be that worried about lacking—or at least hasn't up until now (not to be confused with thinking something's missing—more on that in a sec). And I think a dominated child would respond either more submisively or in an absolute rage to Faye—one of the two.
Yeah, I know 's-mothering' is another form of controlling, but it doesn't produce this 'lost his say' thingy Kazukagii's cobbled up. To me, that's a backdoor into 'spineless Marten, and I haven't and don't buy that. Marten has a spine and has gotten it up several times. He hasn't, however, been extreme* about it—perhaps because he never had to be, since everything would eventually work out.
Only it hasn't with his relationships. I wonder if Marten doesn't resent that as much as he resents Dora dumping him on 'false charges.' Hence the rage, and hence tonight's lil' episode.
*Another footnote. I may be twitching my patella here, but every time I see someone try to label Marten as 'spineless' what I really see are people conditioned by pop culture—in quite a few of those shit-eating sit-coms Carl was referencing in the Weekly, not to mention quite a few films—to perceive any character who doesn't make an extreme gesture when their 'rights' are trodden on as 'spineless.' By the same token, when Marten more or less flipped his shit on Dora (admittedly, she was egging him to do so—how else was she going to bring things to an end? Welcome to Self-destruction 101, folks), here came all the glad cries of "Woot! He got a spine! Don't lose it, dude."
Oy.
I think Marten seems to be a mostly well-adjusted guy with, like all of us, some problems in his approach to life. Some of the things he's doing aren't working, and he's finally gotten upset about this, because, as I've said, people hate changing—and boy-oh-boy, I mean pretty nearly everyone when I say that (even down to the 'perpetual motion' freaks who get upset if things aren't constantly changing).
Marten is going to have to wake up, pick himself up, take stock, and make some alterations—or he's probably going to keep on having the same thing (moar crazee girlfriends, Marty?) keep happening. Everybody, from the bum on the corner to the wall street sneak-thief worth two gazillion on paper, goes through this and makes the choice, either doing something about it or going on as they have been. John Mellencamp wrote a song about some people deciding making change is the way to go—"The Real Life." Sooner or later, I suspect, everybody wants one, and you'd be amazed at how their definitions vary.
Welcome to Humanity 101.
Marty's been coming at this, I suspect, from several angles (in fact because that seems to be the one commonality all Jeph's characters have. That's why he likes Hanners—she's come up against it, made the choice, and is trying like hell ever day to see it through). It's already hit the 'where I am going' nerve. Now it's banging him in the relationship plexus. The more I think about it, the more I think that's what's going on with Marten.
If you want to hear Mellencamp's tune, this is the best I could find—a concert vid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_igpr-Cpnc4
Edit: trying like hell EVERY day. And the damned strike-through. I think I get over-heated, like a teapot. Only in my head.
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newbie with a comment on today's comic (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1818). This thread seemed like a relevant place to say it. I am immensely glad to see Marten show some sign of being fallible and human. Thus far he's really been painted as sort of a saintlike protagonist. He was long overdue for some form of fuckup, and I think this one was very appropriate. Bravo.
Eh, I don't think anyone has seriously espoused the whole 'hipster jesus' idea for quite some time. If anything, he's gotten a lot of flack for not being stronger willed and more in control of his life.
But I do think today's comic does offer a little window into Marten's thoughts.
He's bitter. We knew that. But apparently Dora isn't the only person he's bitter about. Faye, Sven, and Angus all got some pretty harsh condemnation, and I can sort of see why. Marten definitely wouldn't talk about it, or even really think about it sober, but he's aware that Sven and Angus got to be with Faye when he didn't, and while he does seem to genuinely like Angus at least, there's a reason for it.
I think there might even be a little bit of Nice Guy Syndrome floating around in his head from the complicatedness of their social circle, but if there is he's probably felt guilty over it, since even if he didn't get 'the' girl, he got a pretty, nice girl, who was very into him.
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Eh, I don't think anyone has seriously espoused the whole 'hipster jesus' idea for quite some time. If anything, he's gotten a lot of flack for not being stronger willed and more in control of his life.
That makes sense, now that I think about it. You could say he's flawed in that he lacks assertiveness, motivation. He could display more confidence. Until now, though, he's just seemed so laid back, so utterly without any real problems in his life. Even the whole thing with faye and The Talk was handled very gracefully. It's nice to know that although he doesn't feel inclined to bitch about it, he does have feelings of resentment and all that. Makes him more real in my opinion.
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Remember also his chat with Tai when he complained about his life being aimless.
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The strip where he mentions his One-itis is right here: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=447
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By jove, THAT'S IT! :laugh:
Seriously, thanks!
Edit: stupid scroll interfered with my browsing pleasure. Or something like that.
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Is Marten over-controlled?
He's been walking around with these resentments inside all along. Would it have been healthier if he'd had an "it hurts but I want you to be happy" talk with Faye, as Faye did with him when the Dora relationship began?
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I don't know if he's been walking around with these resentments, or has noticed that, by golly, this is one way of looking at it, and it jolly well should be resented. 'Cause that's what I see—a whole heapin' case of the shoulds. Dora should have stayed with Marten, but she didn't; she should have believed he was over Faye (and I really think he is, sot-talk notwithstanding), but she didn't; Faye should have given him a chance so he could have had evidence he and Faye had tried and failed, but she didn't; and so on. Because, if you notice, Marten is really making this about him losing Dora. At the worst, the narrative I see is: "I did everything as right as I could, and now you have someone and I'm alone. It's not fair, and it shouldn't be that way—make it up to me." Not "You never gave me a chance. I love you" or any variation thereof.
They don't call 'em the 'terrible shoulds' for nothing. They hurt, man, if you let them, which Marten is.
In other words, it's Dora who Marten resents, or the situation she left him in, not Faye. Faye's simply handy. Also, Marten wants to use her (apparently in the traditional sense) to feel better, which is a helluva thing to do to a friend. Like I said in the weekly, he actually deserves that punch.
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A lot of this is the bourbon talking, too. It's simplified his outlook and view of the situation, 'cause face it, you can't analyse anything complex when inebriated. Drunken epiphanies are garbage in the sober light of day.
I can actually hear his slurring of "Commere an' gimme a..." (Why do "stinkin" drunks seem to always wanna kiss someone?)
In some ways it's unfortunate that he probably won't remember this. Because Faye will.
Always.
Sorry, this isn't shedding much light on Marten's fundamental character, but it's more along the lines that what we're seeing in 1818 isn't really his fundamental character - it's a proto-Marten, like a laptop running in "Safe" mode - severely impaired at best.
That's a helluva lot of bourbon for a skinny kid, even counting Hanner's glass (which he probably finished off after she left).
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Faye will remember it, but she seems like the type who is violent in the moment, is satisfied by that, and doesn't hold a grudge.
This was all prefigured, too:
PANEL 2 / Pintsize: Fay is nice. Is she going to be your girlfriend now? / Marten: Heh. No, she said she wasn't interested.
PANEL 3 / Pintsize: I'm sorry. You look disappointed. / Marten: Yeah, I guess I am. Which is fucked up, because I should be happy to at least have made a new friend.
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I don't know if he's been walking around with these resentments, or has noticed that, by golly, this is one way of looking at it, and it jolly well should be resented. 'Cause that's what I see—a whole heapin' case of the shoulds. Dora should have stayed with Marten, but she didn't; she should have believed he was over Faye (and I really think he is, sot-talk notwithstanding), but she didn't; Faye should have given him a chance so he could have had evidence he and Faye had tried and failed, but she didn't; and so on. Because, if you notice, Marten is really making this about him losing Dora. At the worst, the narrative I see is: "I did everything as right as I could, and now you have someone and I'm alone. It's not fair, and it shouldn't be that way—make it up to me." Not "You never gave me a chance. I love you" or any variation thereof.
They don't call 'em the 'terrible shoulds' for nothing. They hurt, man, if you let them, which Marten is.
In other words, it's Dora who Marten resents, or the situation she left him in, not Faye. Faye's simply handy. Also, Marten wants to use her (apparently in the traditional sense) to feel better, which is a helluva thing to do to a friend. Like I said in the weekly, he actually deserves that punch.
Knowing the way jeph writes, I'm quite sure you're right. I think innate feelings for Faye would make for a large interesting amount of drama, and I'm a sucker for a good love triangle, but I have a feeling jeph would consider that sort of thing to be contrived, derivative, all that. If it's crossed his mind, he'd immediately go "nah, too obvious".
Time will tell, I guess.
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i can relate to the way Marten deals with stuff, make others happy=you happy(either morally or actually). he does have a little bit of a right to go off, seeing as it WAS him who befriended her when she was new, dealt with her attitude problems, helped her get over her emotional problems, and what did he get? rejected. not saying he did it right, the bourbon saw to that, but he helped her/liked her and she went with others. and Dora? same thing. he dealt with her
crazy over the top emotion problems. he did all he could to prove that he was over Faye, and yet she still broke it off and he finally snapped. you can only use that type of problem-dealing system for so long before you just snap.
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*Another footnote. I may be twitching my patella here, but every time I see someone try to label Marten as 'spineless' what I really see are people conditioned by pop culture—in quite a few of those shit-eating sit-coms Carl was referencing in the Weekly, not to mention quite a few films—to perceive any character who doesn't make an extreme gesture when their 'rights' are trodden on as 'spineless.' By the same token, when Marten more or less flipped his shit on Dora (admittedly, she was egging him to do so—how else was she going to bring things to an end? Welcome to Self-destruction 101, folks), here came all the glad cries of "Woot! He got a spine! Don't lose it, dude."
Twitching your knee? Just don't bang it into anything! As a digression, I don't know that I'd say it's conditioning by pop culture, to me it seems more like what I tend to call the American idea of the "cult of individuality", perhaps best espoused by the mantra of "be loud, be proud, be yourself", with the implication being that if you're not "loud and proud", you're a repressed do-nothing. Thus, the sudden attraction to Marten speaking out; he was "loud and proud" and expressed his individuality all over... by trampling on someone else. After all, what greater expression of individuality is there, than by expressing his own desires and wants over someone (everyone) else's? Consider it a further extension of the "Me generation" paradigm.
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Twitching your knee? Just don't bang it into anything! As a digression, I don't know that I'd say it's conditioning by pop culture, to me it seems more like what I tend to call the American idea of the "cult of individuality", perhaps best espoused by the mantra of "be loud, be proud, be yourself", with the implication being that if you're not "loud and proud", you're a repressed do-nothing. Thus, the sudden attraction to Marten speaking out; he was "loud and proud" and expressed his individuality all over... by trampling on someone else. After all, what greater expression of individuality is there, than by expressing his own desires and wants over someone (everyone) else's? Consider it a further extension of the "Me generation" paradigm.
To quote the comic, 'Bitter much?'
Marten is clearly suffering for his lack of assertiveness. His work life, music career, romance with Dora, etc. have all become depressing parodies of themselves, in ways that stem from his apparent inability to do anything other than simply 'go with the flow', whatever that flow may be. In the sea of life, everyone's affected by the weather, but unless you set a course and tack into the wind when you have to, any destination you have in mind will never appear on the horizon.
People were rejoicing because it initially seemed that Marten had decided to take responsibility for what happened in his own life rather than let it be dictated by the whims of others. Maybe it was a step in that direction, it's hard to know.
But the path Marten was on is only going to lead to his own happiness through the kindness of others, he can't take any credit for the good things in his life if he didn't put the effort into achieving them. And I think that he deserves better.
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Oh, goodie, more nautical metaphors!
Seriously, you both make good points. While there's a lot to be said for individualism, and taking control of your own life, pop culture has made it a goal beyond reason. One life is not more worthy than another because that person struck out on their own and forged their llife from nothing rather than taking a more sedate, corporate path, "shilling for the man". As for the Me generation, take it from someone who lived through it, it wreaked a lot of havoc, and left an indelible stain on the generations that followed, especially the entertainment industry.
Just remember, individualism can manifest in different aspects of the same life - I give you the example of a good friend of mine, a corporate accountant (because he can, and the money's good), but also one helluva musician - the director of two choirs, a bell choir, and an organist and music director for two churches and a synagogue. At work, he's just another grey suit, near the bottom of the totem pole. But to those of us in one of his groups, he's the supportive leader who brings out our best.
Yes, Marten's been coasting, sailing with neither map nor compass, if you will. But that doesn't mean he's not the center of his little social circle, the anchor, supporting his friends, doing good by being that nice guy that he's so good at being.
Not every ship is meant to cross the ocean, discover new lands, or win a regatta.
Some are just out for a nice sail.
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Oh, goodie, more nautical metaphors!
And now that I'm not actually sailing around, I won't get decked (sorry) for using them.
Not every ship is meant to cross the ocean, discover new lands, or win a regatta.
Some are just out for a nice sail.
"...A three hour tour.
A three hour tour!"
Please don't tell me I have to explain that reference.
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I'm about twice your age, so I grew up with that show.
So no, please don't feel obliged to explain ancient cultural references. Remember, some of us really are grumpy old men.
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And some of us are even older and grumpier!
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And some of us didn't have cable in the '80s and had to get by on re-runs on the local independent UHF station. (remember those?)
I lived near Atlanta where you could get TBS over the air. Good ol' channel 17.
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Dear old TBS. It and WGN were the first hint of what was to come in the 'cable explosion'—namely that for every decent show you had to sit through several hours of reruns of The Andy Griffeth Show, Good Times, and, god help us all when they syndicated this shit cake, Mamma's Family.
Not every ship is meant to cross the ocean, discover new lands, or win a regatta.
Some are just out for a nice sail.
Yes, although Marten, at least, has shown a few signs he wants to install an engine—or maybe at least strap on an Evinrude. Still, I don't think he really wants to change in the cut of his jib, (you know, his, ah, FUNDAMENTAL CHARACTER). Just the speed at which he's making his travels, and maybe a slight adjustment to the rigging.
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Twitching your knee? Just don't bang it into anything! As a digression, I don't know that I'd say it's conditioning by pop culture, to me it seems more like what I tend to call the American idea of the "cult of individuality", perhaps best espoused by the mantra of "be loud, be proud, be yourself", with the implication being that if you're not "loud and proud", you're a repressed do-nothing. Thus, the sudden attraction to Marten speaking out; he was "loud and proud" and expressed his individuality all over... by trampling on someone else. After all, what greater expression of individuality is there, than by expressing his own desires and wants over someone (everyone) else's? Consider it a further extension of the "Me generation" paradigm.
To quote the comic, 'Bitter much?'
If that was directed at me, then no, I'm not really bitter about it. I'm foreign born (Asian), immigrated to the states while fairly young (5 years old), but was rather introverted, and thus most of my upbringing was more in the classic Asian sense than the American. I generally have no problems with those that are assertive and know exactly where they're going, although I do have issues with the fact that that often seems to have led to the current "entitlement" generation and the "screw you if you don't agree with me" attitude that so many people slightly younger than me (and even slightly older sometimes) seems to have (I'm... *counts* 31 right now, which means I fall slightly between the popular generations). Anyway, enough about me!
Marten is clearly suffering for his lack of assertiveness. His work life, music career, romance with Dora, etc. have all become depressing parodies of themselves, in ways that stem from his apparent inability to do anything other than simply 'go with the flow', whatever that flow may be. In the sea of life, everyone's affected by the weather, but unless you set a course and tack into the wind when you have to, any destination you have in mind will never appear on the horizon.
I don't know that he was really suffering, though. He admittedly would get twinges that this wasn't enough (I can't find it right now, I think it was a conversation with Tai?), but I don't know if he was "suffering", per se. Some people can actually be content with living like that, although I don't know if we ever learn for sure if Marten might be one of those. It is possible to wonder "if there's something more" without actually being dissatisfied. Admittedly, that way lies stasis, and I think someone else mentioned that Jeph is against stasis in his characters.
People were rejoicing because it initially seemed that Marten had decided to take responsibility for what happened in his own life rather than let it be dictated by the whims of others. Maybe it was a step in that direction, it's hard to know.
Was he actually taking responsibility, though? It just seemed like he was getting angry that a line that he thought he'd put down had been crossed. While that shows "a spine", I disagree that it shows that he's taking responsibility, at least not as it was presented. I really think everyone was rejoicing just because they were thinking "Yay! Marten isn't a pushover! He's actually capable of getting angry and being a selfish bastard!" This to me seems more like people were happy that he wasn't "the perfect doormat", and that he was being brought down to a more, call it understandable level.
But the path Marten was on is only going to lead to his own happiness through the kindness of others, he can't take any credit for the good things in his life if he didn't put the effort into achieving them. And I think that he deserves better.
Well, in a general sense, everyone deserves better. Unfortunately, life "is", and until karma (in this world) is proven, what one deserves and what one gets rarely coincide (apart from fiction or the efforts of others to make it so). I wonder if Marten perhaps has what you might call a "philanthropist" character, basically a person who derives joy in making other people happy. In what might be called an extension of your point of "gaining happiness from the kindness of others", he instead actually "gains happiness in making other people happy". This won't preclude occasional bouts of self-doubt (like his little drunken rampage with Faye), but I wonder if that might not be his fundamental character. This could also, I suppose, feed into that "Nice Guy" image that everyone else complains about, although I think that would depend more on the root of why he has such a character. After all, he may be more of a "Mother Theresa" type that genuinely believes in trying to make other people happy as opposed to doing it out of a lack of a sense of self-worth.
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Since everyone have been hunting for a certain comic page, I finally hunted it down... :police:
1292 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1292)
And it turns out he never actually said "aimless", and that may very well be the reason we couldn't find it. Now that I have wasted a whole lot of time on something like this, I think I have to do something a little more productive. I happen to have goals in my life, although small ones - it's what education does to you.
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If that was directed at me, then no, I'm not really bitter about it. I'm foreign born (Asian), immigrated to the states while fairly young (5 years old), but was rather introverted, and thus most of my upbringing was more in the classic Asian sense than the American. I generally have no problems with those that are assertive and know exactly where they're going, although I do have issues with the fact that that often seems to have led to the current "entitlement" generation and the "screw you if you don't agree with me" attitude that so many people slightly younger than me (and even slightly older sometimes) seems to have (I'm... *counts* 31 right now, which means I fall slightly between the popular generations). Anyway, enough about me!
That does explain much of your position, although I do think it's led you to be isolated from those of us in my generation who aren't suffering from entitlement issues or narcissism. It's not a universal trait by any means.
We're just keeping our heads down and hoping the world doesn't explode or collapse before we get a chance to do something about it.
I don't know that he was really suffering, though. He admittedly would get twinges that this wasn't enough (I can't find it right now, I think it was a conversation with Tai?), but I don't know if he was "suffering", per se. Some people can actually be content with living like that, although I don't know if we ever learn for sure if Marten might be one of those. It is possible to wonder "if there's something more" without actually being dissatisfied. Admittedly, that way lies stasis, and I think someone else mentioned that Jeph is against stasis in his characters.
Well, if the downing of an entire bottle of bourbon isn't a clear indication the guy is in emotional pain, I'm not sure what to tell you. I never meant to imply the suffering was constant, but it's acute right now. And Marten has very little to actually hope for right now, unless he makes a change. His relationship with Dora is over, and that void is going to remain there until he does something about it.
Was he actually taking responsibility, though? It just seemed like he was getting angry that a line that he thought he'd put down had been crossed. While that shows "a spine", I disagree that it shows that he's taking responsibility, at least not as it was presented. I really think everyone was rejoicing just because they were thinking "Yay! Marten isn't a pushover! He's actually capable of getting angry and being a selfish bastard!" This to me seems more like people were happy that he wasn't "the perfect doormat", and that he was being brought down to a more, call it understandable level.
Please keep in mind that I was clearly talking about what I believed other people felt like, attempting to understand their position. Do you really believe you're stating their positions accurately? Because it seems you want to paint them as villains and rail against them rather than learn why they hold a position that doesn't make sense to you.
Well, in a general sense, everyone deserves better. Unfortunately, life "is", and until karma (in this world) is proven, what one deserves and what one gets rarely coincide (apart from fiction or the efforts of others to make it so). I wonder if Marten perhaps has what you might call a "philanthropist" character, basically a person who derives joy in making other people happy. In what might be called an extension of your point of "gaining happiness from the kindness of others", he instead actually "gains happiness in making other people happy". This won't preclude occasional bouts of self-doubt (like his little drunken rampage with Faye), but I wonder if that might not be his fundamental character. This could also, I suppose, feed into that "Nice Guy" image that everyone else complains about, although I think that would depend more on the root of why he has such a character. After all, he may be more of a "Mother Theresa" type that genuinely believes in trying to make other people happy as opposed to doing it out of a lack of a sense of self-worth.
Marten isn't a philanthropist, though. He'll help people when the opportunity falls into his lap, but he hasn't sought out chances to help people that he's not already friends with.
The characterization you've made might be accurate, but it really changes nothing, as he's still not making a conscious decision to do the things that would improve his happiness beyond what simply appears at his feet.
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"Selling out" does not equal "aimless", this is true.
More like "surrender."
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That does explain much of your position, although I do think it's led you to be isolated from those of us in my generation who aren't suffering from entitlement issues or narcissism. It's not a universal trait by any means.
Oh, I hadn't meant to imply that it was a universal trait. I think I'm still suffering a bit from all of the people that seemed to espouse that trait that came out in the locked thread of a few weeks back, which is, in the end, a bit of what this entire topic is all about (or at least sparked from).
I don't know that he was really suffering, though. He admittedly would get twinges that this wasn't enough (I can't find it right now, I think it was a conversation with Tai?), but I don't know if he was "suffering", per se. Some people can actually be content with living like that, although I don't know if we ever learn for sure if Marten might be one of those. It is possible to wonder "if there's something more" without actually being dissatisfied. Admittedly, that way lies stasis, and I think someone else mentioned that Jeph is against stasis in his characters.
Well, if the downing of an entire bottle of bourbon isn't a clear indication the guy is in emotional pain, I'm not sure what to tell you. I never meant to imply the suffering was constant, but it's acute right now. And Marten has very little to actually hope for right now, unless he makes a change. His relationship with Dora is over, and that void is going to remain there until he does something about it.
I'd agree that he's suffering right now, but I was referring more to the entire process up to this point, since I'd been thinking about comic #1292 (thanks, 08h7w!), which happened much earlier than the present story arc, and your mention of his work life and music career had me thinking more about his previous life as expressed by that comic than his current circumstances.
Was he actually taking responsibility, though? It just seemed like he was getting angry that a line that he thought he'd put down had been crossed. While that shows "a spine", I disagree that it shows that he's taking responsibility, at least not as it was presented. I really think everyone was rejoicing just because they were thinking "Yay! Marten isn't a pushover! He's actually capable of getting angry and being a selfish bastard!" This to me seems more like people were happy that he wasn't "the perfect doormat", and that he was being brought down to a more, call it understandable level.
Please keep in mind that I was clearly talking about what I believed other people felt like, attempting to understand their position. Do you really believe you're stating their positions accurately? Because it seems you want to paint them as villains and rail against them rather than learn why they hold a position that doesn't make sense to you.
Ah, I'm afraid that wasn't clear to me (that you were talking about what you believed other people felt like). And I do think that for the ones that I do remember from previous locked thread, that is pretty much what they thought, mostly because they'd follow up their statements with something along the lines of "now be a man and dump that bitch!" as well as the comments about "Wow, Marten isn't a saint anymore. Thank god. He was just too perfect at letting people walk all over him." As for painting them as villains, I don't think that was my actual intent (subconscious aside), I think I was more trying to point out the way that they sounded to me, or the tone that they (to me) were putting across.
I wonder if Marten perhaps has what you might call a "philanthropist" character, basically a person who derives joy in making other people happy. In what might be called an extension of your point of "gaining happiness from the kindness of others", he instead actually "gains happiness in making other people happy". This won't preclude occasional bouts of self-doubt (like his little drunken rampage with Faye), but I wonder if that might not be his fundamental character. This could also, I suppose, feed into that "Nice Guy" image that everyone else complains about, although I think that would depend more on the root of why he has such a character. After all, he may be more of a "Mother Theresa" type that genuinely believes in trying to make other people happy as opposed to doing it out of a lack of a sense of self-worth.
Marten isn't a philanthropist, though. He'll help people when the opportunity falls into his lap, but he hasn't sought out chances to help people that he's not already friends with.
The characterization you've made might be accurate, but it really changes nothing, as he's still not making a conscious decision to do the things that would improve his happiness beyond what simply appears at his feet.
Not an active philanthropist, no. Although we have no idea if he might donate, or volunteer somewhere in his off time. My characterization was more to point out that if that is his motivation, then he _is_ improving his happiness by helping out his friends and making them happier, hence the "gains happiness by making other people happy." By that token, him helping people that he isn't already friends with doesn't help him as much; he may not be able to see how much change he's making in their lives. Take Faye for example. Yes, in his drunken state he complained that he got her over her problems just in time to have her go to somebody else, but maybe that's really "the thing he does", helps people that he knows to improve their own lives and thus derive joy from doing so. Hanners is probably a better example of this, apart from the early weirdness of the way she was introduced, see how happy Marten is that she's been coming along with her OCD, and expanding her horizons, trying "normal" things, and just in general "growing up", so to speak.
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Is Marten depressed?
Emotional overcontrol goes with treatment-resistant depression, and a case of depression would fit his lack of initiative.
His social life, however, is way better than you'd expect of a depressive.
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Marten doesn't live, eat sleep and breathe each woman so much as he simply doesn't seriously consider others as possibilities. It's as though he won't allow himself to really 'see' them—to fully explore the idea of he and this girl as an item, if you will. He's involved with (on whatever level) who he's involved with, and that's that.
Yeah, he's monogamous. But now he's free again.
Many are saying (in another thread) that Marten should wait a while before getting serious again. But look, he's got about the perfect job for meeting dateable women; one asked him out already.
Perhaps the new dating drama in QC could be Marten not noticing/ fending off/ running from groups of hungry Smiffens who are smitten with the skinny indie boy, while he's trying to process and learn from the Dora disaster.
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Unfortuneately, Marten will no longer be emitting the 'in a relationship' pheremone, and will therefore not be quite as attractive to the unattached ladies.
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I actually hope Jeph touches on this in a future strip...
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@Olymander
I was one of the ones who was glad that Marten had stood up for himself with the whole thing with Dora. Not because he was, as you put it, 'being a selfish bastard.' I was glad because Marten frequently was the one who had to apologize when he did nothing wrong. He had to put up with a lot from Dora and when he set a reasonable boundary, and said clearly that he didn't want to discuss it, she ignored him and when she looked at it her tone was annoyed that it wasn't anything 'extreme' as if the purpose of the exercise was to find something to humiliate Marten with. He was angry, rightfully, because she ignored a boundary he had, one of very few boundaries, and this was after her constantly thinking he was unfaithful. I call what Marten did showing a spine because there is such a thing as personal boundaries, and when you ignore those that's kind of a big deal. Marten wasn't 'trampling' Dora in doing that, and was justified in being angry.
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@Blackjoker
I agreed that Marten standing up for himself was showing a spine, the disagreement was in that his standing up for himself meant that he was taking responsibility for his life (as Boomslang was suggesting was the reason that other people were happy). My annoyance was in, as you might recall, all the people that immediately took his standing up for himself into "Alright, Marten, now that you've laid down the line, go punish that bitch (meaning Dora)!" Basically all the people that seemed intent on turning Marten into one of those "Alpha Goths" that Dora used to date ( I think... Solusar? is perhaps the better example of what bothered me about the whole thing).
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@Blackjoker
I agreed that Marten standing up for himself was showing a spine, the disagreement was in that his standing up for himself meant that he was taking responsibility for his life (as Boomslang was suggesting was the reason that other people were happy). My annoyance was in, as you might recall, all the people that immediately took his standing up for himself into "Alright, Marten, now that you've laid down the line, go punish that bitch (meaning Dora)!" Basically all the people that seemed intent on turning Marten into one of those "Alpha Goths" that Dora used to date ( I think... Solusar? is perhaps the better example of what bothered me about the whole thing).
Ah, ok, sorry for the misinterpretation then.
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Over on Formspring Jeph has put a stake in the heart of the idea that Marten is a depressive.