THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)
Fun Stuff => BAND => Topic started by: fish across face on 13 Apr 2007, 06:34
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Flaming Ostrich linking to the Stranglers' Golden Brown in the Youtube vids thread got me thinking about how non-standard time signatures really needn't be stressful at all. There's a bunch of singles that were bona fide hits (albeit 25-35 years ago) that weren't in either 4/4 or waltz time.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=pNtGSjkwzQ4
Golden Brown's mostly a waltz (well, 6 8 I suppose) but they chuck in bars of 7 8 in the instrumental parts. Not sure it got to number 1, but must've been close.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ArB5g3NeaNw
Peter Gabriel definitely had his debut single, Solsbury Hill, go to number one and it's in 7 4.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hkjkTe5kZE
Pink Floyd's Money was pretty huge, again it's 7 4.
Other than those I can only really think of songs that drop beats, e.g. The Bee Gees' Jive Talking off Saturday Night Fever and Blondie's Heart of Glass, both of which are largely in 4 but have bars of 3 here and there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7g8qO-pqzo
Least appropriate vid ever... The keyboard bit is where it shifts about.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TZXdlouMEzA
My God, the guy on keys is most insane. The dropped beats come in around the 2 minutes mark...
Anyone know of any more?
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"Take Five" by the Dave Brubeck Quartet, circa 1959, is still (I think) the highest-selling jazz single of all time. It's in 5/4.
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"Take Five" by the Dave Brubeck Quartet, circa 1959, is still (I think) the highest-selling jazz single of all time. It's in 5/4.
Ya bastard.
What about 'March of the Pigs' by NIN? It's not a hit on the same scale as these, but I think it's in like, 3 bars of 7/4 and then one of 13/8 or something crazy. It's nuts, whatever its timing is.
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That one song in the Kingdom Hearts II trailers by Utada is in 7/4.
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Well, I'm not sure how much of a hit Broken Social Scene's song "7/4 Shoreline" is, but it's got a video, and as the title would imply, it's in 7/4.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0hJMBV_G9g
Also, Radiohead's "Paranoid Android" has instrumental parts in 7/4.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzSXTMUe0Do&mode=related&search=
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"Living in the Past" by Jethro Tull is in 5/4.
"Turn it on Again" by Genesis is in 13/4, with chorus and refrain in 4/4.
"Limelight" by Rush is in 13/4, with chorus and refrain in 3/4.
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6/8 is way more common in popular music than 3/4 is, I think.
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Damn it! I was going to say "7/4 Shoreline"! My friend showed me a band called Meshugga who has a weird ass time signature for their song "New Millienium Cyanide Christ." The drummer's playing a standard 4/4 time on the snare and the symbols, while playing 16/23 or something rediculous like that with the double bass pedals, and the guitars are matching the double bass time. It's fucked up. Also, the video for it, is one of my favorite music videos ever, because it's just silly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFlhLupQzrQ
Yes, that's the official music video.
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I dunno man, pretty much everything I heard from that song was in 4/4.
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Meshuggah ain't all that big, but they're known for fucking with your head when it comes to time signatures. Most of their songs are centered around the drummer's crazy antics.
As for big hits, I'm surprised Tool hasn't been mentioned yet. Schism was in mostly 10, 11, and 12/8. In fact, few of their songs are ever 4/4 or 3/4. On the one hand, I hate people who use that kind of thing as a reason for listening to them, but on the other hand, you gotta figure these guys are damn good for getting something as musically weird as Schism on MTV.
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I dunno man, pretty much everything I heard from that song was in 4/4.
The guitars definitely aren't in 4/4. The snare is in 4/4 though, so it sounds like it is... But basically everything else is in crazy times.
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Spoonman by Soundgarden is in 7/4.
If I remember correctly, Possum Kingdom by The Toadies is in alternating measures of 4/4 and 7/8 in the verses.
Barracuda by Heart has some measures of 7/8 in one of the bridge sections, I believe.
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I was going to mention Take Five but I had no idea if it was even a single.
While none of these three were exactly big hit singles, chart-wise, I do think Tool's Schism, Radiohead's Paranoid Android and to some extent NIN's March Of The Pigs are good calls. They certainly reached the ears of a fairly big number of people.
There are heaps and heaps and heaps of people not making hits who are still pretty popular doing things in non-standard time signatures, from Stereolab to Lamb to Aceyalone to all this metal stuff which I have to claim ignorance about...
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The real question I want to ask is: who cares? Of the many things I don't listen to music for, the time signature is definitely one of them. It's not something I even think about. You don't read music reviews saying "Oh god! You must listen to this, it's in 7/4 time!!!!". At most it's an ephemeral concern.
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The real question I want to ask is: who cares?
The real question? What other questions have you asked so far? :-D
How do you settle on the time signatures you use in your own music?
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Actually, I must confess that one of my recent compositions was deliberately written to be weird timing. In the chorus each four-bar phrase is three bars of 5/4 and one bar of 7/4, post-chorus is 6/8, verse is 5/4, middle eight is 6/8. However, I was aiming for it to be an anti-Dream Theater so that the time signature is just part of it being a bitchin' song rather than it being all you notice. I may well have failed but...well, it's fun for me to play even if it was masturbatory, and I still think it's pretty bitchin'.
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"Who cares?" Not that it gives a song any special significance by itself, and it certainly can be used poorly, but bands/artists that are willing to experiment with the musical sophistication necessary to use different time signatures (eg Tool) generally put out interesting material, at least in my experience. Few people will actually use time signatures (or odd key signatures either, for that matter) as a determining factor in their taste, but something so foundational to musical expression is certainly worth noting, especially when it signifies a departure from the norm.
As far as bands in this category go, they don't have any "hits" as of yet, but Anathallo's "Floating World" disc is just peppered with all sorts of rhythmic variation.
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I'm on the 'who cares' boat, but at the same time, when there's a 'best guitarist' thread over on the Gamespot OT boards (which happens far too often and I'm getting sick of it), I"ll nominate someone whom no one knows that plays in odd time often, but still writes good music.
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Don Caballero have at least 20 different time signatures per song.
And they make it sound good.
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As far as bands in this category go, they don't have any "hits" as of yet, but Anathallo's "Floating World" disc is just peppered with all sorts of rhythmic variation.
Love that album.
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How do you settle on the time signatures you use in your own music?
When I'm writing music on the guitar, I don't even think about it. I write from vocal melodies down, so I just play whatever matches the way I've come up with to sing, mashed together with any cool little progressions or riffs or whatnot I've found dicking around on the guitar. If I add percussion or other instruments, I play to that.
When I'm writing on the computer, I just make the decision pretty much arbitrarily. Like I'll be 'man, just wrote two sings in 4/4, I wonder what 6/8 is at' or whatever. Sometimes I try and stick occult symbolism or whatever in the time signatures, dickish at is. I once tried writing a 666 bpm industrial track in 66/6 time. Needless to say it did not work.
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people seriously decide on time signatures? both bands i'm in just go "okay, we play this part X number of times, then this part Y number of times, then we do half of X and a 1/3 of Y blahblahblah"
Not all of us play in bands is the thing. The vast majority of music-making software assumes you want to write in 4 4 every time. To be honest, that's a really good assumption to make :wink: but it does mean a conscious effort has to be made to deviate from that. It also means it's very unlikely that you'll hear sequenced music that changes bar lengths much at all... cos you have to make that conscious decision every time...
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Quite a few pieces of music making software it's basically impossible to change time singature mid song, without making the song up as seperate tracks.
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Quite a few pieces of music making software it's basically impossible to change time singature mid song, without making the song up as seperate tracks.
unless of course, you're using midi-software, ala guitarpro or powertab. But I'm not sure how many different time signatures they actually support either, so the 66/6 thing might not have worked there either.
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Oh no, you misunderstand. 66/6 time was indeed supported by my software, it was just a ridiculously unwieldy time signature to do anything in.
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Oh no, you misunderstand. 66/6 time was indeed supported by my software, it was just a ridiculously unwieldy time signature to do anything in.
i want your software.
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What's a sixth note?
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I dunno man, pretty much everything I heard from that song was in 4/4.
The guitars definitely aren't in 4/4. The snare is in 4/4 though, so it sounds like it is... But basically everything else is in crazy times.
Well, granted, I didin't listen to that much of the song. ;-)
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The real question I want to ask is: who cares? Of the many things I don't listen to music for, the time signature is definitely one of them. It's not something I even think about. You don't read music reviews saying "Oh god! You must listen to this, it's in 7/4 time!!!!". At most it's an ephemeral concern.
Rhythm is such a fundamental aspect of music that skillful wielding of it can really help to give character to a piece of music. Time signature obsession can get out of hand with some people, but I really do love to hear some well played music in interesting time signatures. I often find that certain things in 4/4 would have sounded better in other time signatures based on the melody or amount of repeats used.
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Exactly.
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I wrote a song in 13/8 this morning.
I like 4/4.
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Maybe you also like cookies, soda, and the missionary position, you middling rodent.
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"Mars" - composed by Gustav H?lst (5/4)
"The Ocean" - Led Zeppelin (I've got no dicking idea what signature it's in but I love it lots)
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Speaking of Led Zeppelin, "Kashmir" has the guitar in 3/4 layered over the drums in 4/4.
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I do like all of those things. What the fuck are you saying about cookies and soda, man.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_works_in_unusual_time_signatures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_works_in_unusual_time_signatures)
Fun times.
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Thanks for the link, Yakob.
Since we're not necessarily talking about hits anymore, I would like to point out that "Breadcrumb Trail" by Slint is in 7/4 and 3/4, and "Nosferatu Man" is in 5/4 and 2/4.
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Sorry to sound like a complete musical noob, but what does time signature actually determine? I've always thought that it pretty much just determined how the piece was written down in sheet music?
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Sorry to sound like a complete musical noob, but what does time signature actually determine? I've always thought that it pretty much just determined how the piece was written down in sheet music?
X:Y
Y = length of a beat (think "what you tap your foot to"), usually a quarter note or 8th note.
X = number of beats per measure (usually you can tell by the length of a short, repeating melody, or a percussion sequence)
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Mostly where the pulse is, really. If it's in 3/4, you can count in threes (1-2-3, 1-2-3,...) and put the emphasis on the 1. If it's in 4/4, you count in fours (though in jazz 4/4, the emphasis usually goes on 2 and 4 as opposed to 1 and 3). That's the basics for non-music readers.
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Noting of course that in the subject line, "waltz time" means 3/4, and standard time is 4/4. The reason other time signatures sound more "interesting", so to speak, is that they aren't as regular. For example, in 5/4, the stressed beats are usually 1 and 3 or 1 and 4, so you get "ONE two THREE four five ONE two THREE four five", or "ONE two three FOUR five ONE two three FOUR five", so it kind of lurches along asymmetrically like a guy with a dead leg.
Similarly, 7/8 becomes ONE two three FOUR five SIX seven (usually counted under your breath as ONE two three ONE two ONE two), so it's like a three-legged zombie. On speed? I dunno, similes can be hard.
3/4 doesn't get subdivided into more than one stress per bar because 3 is an easy number of beats to keep track of, and 4/4 easily gets divided into 2 and 2. 6/8 gets easily divided into groups of 3 so it's kind of like a double-speed waltz, so you get something like a jig/gigue. That's why it seems "natural" to invent a melody that fits into those time signatures, and more "difficult" to come up with one that sounds like it "should" be in 5/4 or 7/4 or 11/4 or whatever (note they are all primes! 9/4 or 9/8 is easy - it's like a cross between 6/8 and 3/4, and obviously 12/8 is super cool).
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When I was in Finland I noticed a trend for radio stations to play big pop hits that had been re-recorded by Finnish musicians and re-written in Finnish. I heard a version of the Beatles' "All You Need Is Love" (I'm pretty sure that was the song, it was a few years ago) re-written in 5/4 to accommodate the Finnish lyrics. That was pretty special.
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9/4 or 9/8 is easy - it's like a cross between 6/8 and 3/4
Actually, I had to play this one song in twelfth grade band, "Vesuvius" by Elliot Del Borgo. Mostly in 9/8, with a few 3/2s, and a measure or two in 6,7,8,10,11,12/8. The thing is, where as 9/8 would seem simple enough to do (stress every third), he only did that for maybe two measures of a 300 or so measure song. The rest of the time, it went ONE two THREE four five SIX seven EIGHT nine, then randomly go ONE two THREE four FIVE six seven EIGHT nine, and some other fucked up patterns in between sections. He took a simple concept warped it to the point of a few trumpet players flipping out when they got the sheet music. It was a catchy piece, however, and the baritones had a habit of playing two f's louder than written. I was in the percussion section, I had to play bells for this monstrosity. The bass drummer got to play ffff. I did envy him so.
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Inlander: the original was 7/4 for the verses, 4/4 for the chorus. ^__^
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"The Ocean" - Led Zeppelin (I've got no dicking idea what signature it's in but I love it lots)
Every other measure has the fourth beat cut short, so I'd call it alternating measures of 4/4 and 7/8. That's just the hook line, though. Most of the verses and choruses are straight 4/4.
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I'm surprised 12/8 hasn't gotten more attention than a very brief mention by Dimmukane. Fucking "Bad To The Bone" by George Thorogood and the Destroyers is one of the most famous songs in history and it's in 12/8.
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Inlander: the original was 7/4 for the verses, 4/4 for the chorus. ^__^
I only recognised the chorus (let's face it, the melody of the chorus is pretty forgettable, but the melody of the verses is almost non-existant), and that was in 5/4.
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All the tracks on Dave Brubeck Quintet's album Time out are in odd time meters, including 9/8, 6/4 and 5/4, the famous Take Five.
Oddly, it was a huge success, although it was entirely an experimental album!
"It was never supposed to be a hit. It was supposed to be a Joe Morello drum solo"
-Paul Desmond of Take Five
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6/8 gets easily divided into groups of 3 so it's kind of like a double-speed waltz, so you get something like a jig/gigue.
Well, the thing to note is that technically 6/8 is a duple meter, not a triple meter: there are two beats divided into three subdivisions, so it's actually the dotted quarter note which counts as the beat and not the eighth note, which is the subdivision. If compound time signatures were written out like simple ones, then 6/8 would really be called 2/3. Of course you can stress things differently and play three even quarter notes across the bar, but that's technically a 2:3 polyrhythm to the actual beat and things get even more complicated when you start introducing triplets, which gives you a 9:2 (or 9:4/9:8, etc) feel as opposed to the simple 2:3 that it would represent in a simple-time context.
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I'm surprised 12/8 hasn't gotten more attention than a very brief mention by Dimmukane. Fucking "Bad To The Bone" by George Thorogood and the Destroyers is one of the most famous songs in history and it's in 12/8.
I think for most people 12 8 is just thought of as 4 4 with people playing triplets throughout. That's definitely how I thought about blues (and glam!) stuff for the longest time. I guess that may be utterly offensive for those who read music and learn the traditional way to accent beats and so on.
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I dunno. 12/8 can easily be divided into 6/8, and that's how I'll always count it if I can. I realize that maybe the position of the notes in the measure might make it hard to count 6/8, but unless that is the case (which it rarely is), I'll count 6/8.
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I think for most people 12 8 is just thought of as 4 4 with people playing triplets throughout. That's definitely how I thought about blues (and glam!) stuff for the longest time. I guess that may be utterly offensive for those who read music and learn the traditional way to accent beats and so on.
agreed. it's just different notation, but whatever.
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I don't think any Mars Volta hits were in weird time signatures. Their most recent one was in 4/4, even though it was sometimes hard to tell. "The Widow" is in 6/8, and so is "Roulette Dares."
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I don't think any Mars Volta hits were in weird time signatures. Their most recent one was in 4/4, even though it was sometimes hard to tell. "The Widow" is in 6/8, and so is "Roulette Dares."
If you looked at the Wiki link earlier in the thread, Tetragrammaton and Cassandra Gemmini were both on there towards the bottom (lots of unusual time signatures in a song)
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Any hit by Rush that ever came after the album Fly By Night. Those guys were wankers about that sort of thing.
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I don't think any Mars Volta hits were in weird time signatures. Their most recent one was in 4/4, even though it was sometimes hard to tell. "The Widow" is in 6/8, and so is "Roulette Dares."
If you looked at the Wiki link earlier in the thread, Tetragrammaton and Cassandra Gemmini were both on there towards the bottom (lots of unusual time signatures in a song)
Yeah but those weren't hits, were they?
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Any hit by Rush that ever came after the album Fly By Night. Those guys were wankers about that sort of thing.
Gross overgeneralizations FTL. They did mess around a lot in alternate time signatures, but most of their hits were still in 4/4.
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I don't think any Mars Volta hits were in weird time signatures. Their most recent one was in 4/4, even though it was sometimes hard to tell. "The Widow" is in 6/8, and so is "Roulette Dares."
If you looked at the Wiki link earlier in the thread, Tetragrammaton and Cassandra Gemmini were both on there towards the bottom (lots of unusual time signatures in a song)
Yeah but those weren't hits, were they?
I don't know...for some reason, I though those were a few of their more popular songs. I haven't paid much attention to how much airplay they get.