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Fun Stuff => BAND => Topic started by: Jackie Blue on 28 Dec 2007, 15:55

Title: Do you buy music?
Post by: Jackie Blue on 28 Dec 2007, 15:55
Be honest, now.

The only large, independant record store in town is closing one of its two stores to consolidate, because of lagging sales.  This is the only store in town with an "Independant" section, the only place to buy new albums on vinyl.

One of the main given reasons is, literally and verbatim, "College kids don't shop at our store anymore."

So, are you part of the problem?  Do you download amazing albums from the Mediafire thread and then NOT actually buy the album?  Are you a music leech or do you vote with your wallets to keep good musicians out of the poorhouse and making more good music for you to listen to?  If you have a local used/new store, do you shop there, even though you can go on Amazon and feed the corporate whoremachine because a used disc on there might be a couple dollars cheaper?

Do you buy new albums from Amazon instead of directly from the label, which is almost always cheaper anyway?
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Katherine on 28 Dec 2007, 16:06
I buy music directly from iTunes whenever possible.  I am impatient and want my music delivered electronically, immediately.  Plus, its better for the environment and stuff...
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Jackie Blue on 28 Dec 2007, 16:30
So you find absolutely no joy in browsing a used/new record store and stumbling across new or weird things?  Legitimate question, because it has been brought to my attention that there are people under the age of 23 or so who have literally never set foot in a record store.

I'm old.   :-(
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: thermodynamics on 28 Dec 2007, 16:30
i haven't bought music in a long, long time. other than old vinyl, that is. i buy at least 5 records a week. but new music, cds, etc, i haven't paid for in over a year. i have torrents for that jazz.

i play music and my band has cds. no one wants to pay for music anymore. we sell maybe 1 or 2 cds per show. tops. i hate iTunes GUI so i don't have that to get music with, and - honestly - most music isn't worth buying to me, but i am sort of pretentious like that. all perpetuating the problem and what not.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Thrillho on 28 Dec 2007, 16:43
I buy music on at least a weekly basis. My ambition is to legally own everything I have illegally already, and I've stopped downloading.

Frankly I think the people who think they have a moral high ground because they download instead of buying records are dickheads. Yeah sure, record labels are dicks and they take too much money out of the CDs instead of giving it to the artists. But I'm willing to bet - and I know there are plenty of exceptions to this rule, bands who freely encourage downloading instead - that for most struggling artists, an extra 5p in their pocket from each CD you buy is better than, oh I don't know, nothing?

But hey, at least you have some semblance of a 'belief' about it. I'd rather some misguided notion or morality than the people who just download because they can't be bothered to buy CDs or 'only buy things they like' (THEN DELETE WHAT YOU DON'T LIKE) or are just pricks or one or more or all of the above.

So yes, I buy records, and yes I love to just go into a record store and browse.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: ScrambledGregs on 28 Dec 2007, 16:55
If I could afford to, I would buy everything legit.


I'm not that old (23) and I regularly buy new records from my local independent store. They're an awesome store. If I could buy everything on vinyl, I would.

I probably buy half the amount of albums I download, which is still a lot.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Ishotdanieljohnston on 28 Dec 2007, 17:02
Record stores are amongst my favourite places, and my almost maniacal addiction to buying from them partly stems from not wanting them to close down. My favourite, Greville St. records bitch everytime I come in about "the old days" when they'd have people queing up outside and how the internet has destroyed there business.

They had to let go all there employees and now it's just the owner and his best freind. Recently I've been buying four or five albums from there a week. They gave me a gift of a 30 dollar album the other week for spending over 4000 in there over the past 3 months. I'm not regretting it, but I'm going to be poor this summer because all my money has gone on albums and shows.

However, I do download, and feel like shit for doing it. I've been trying to cut back, but it's so tempting when you see an album you've been desperately seeking for an age just a click away on the mediafire thread. Though the labels CAN BE blood sucking dicks, they are the only thing keeping the industry alive along with many struggling artists.

I'm also amongst those gradually trying to replace the great albums I've downloaded, but there are so damn many of them it will take a long, lon time.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Edible on 28 Dec 2007, 17:06
The only, independant record store in my town that i know of basically only sells jazz, country etc. so they dont really have the music I look for, if there was an independant store that had what I wanted, I would llikely buy from it but for the moment the net is the only place I can find the stuff.

Periodically if they have one I will paypal a band I like 10 or 20 $ because I figure its more than they get anyway, and cuts out the middleman.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Kai on 28 Dec 2007, 17:13
I have a problem.

See, I love record stores. Adore them. I love having physical copies of albums. I love sending money to artists that I think are doing something great (and something that I hope to do myself someday as well).

My problem stems from the idea that whenever I am in a record store, I spend too much. if I have money, any amount, and I go in, all of it will be gone when I walk out. It's an issue. So much of the money I get ends up going into these shops even though I should probably buy something else or even *gasp* save it.

The records that I do purchase do not counteract the records that I download. At all. I download many more records than I purchase. But this isn't because I don't like to buy records. This is because I don't have a steady income at the moment.

You can probably assume I am not very good with money.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Misereatur on 28 Dec 2007, 17:20
I know your problam, Griffin. I live on a soldier's pay, which is about US$88 a month. The first thing I do when I get my paycheck? Spend it all on music. Enough to buy at least three records, five if I'm in a used records store. Ever since the tenth grade, while all of my friends worked to pay for their driver's license or for spending on booze, I worked so I could buy records and go to concerts.

Recently I've decided to give up on saving for the new amp and a new bridge for my Jazz Bass I desperately need and instead save for a decent record player because mine is broke. This means that I'll have to start buying only one record a month. I don't know how I'm going to deal with that. I'm lucky that my medical profile is really really low and I got a job that let me go home every day. If I was a combat soldier, while it's better then sitting in an office all day, I don't know how I'd survive without listening to records daily.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Jackie Blue on 28 Dec 2007, 17:31
I'm basically where you are, Kai.  I buy as much music as I can afford.  If I download an album, it's almost always either an album I have owned in the past and sold, or an album that has already sold so many copies that I'm not hurting anyone (like a Pink Floyd or Who album, for example).

I did download the new Radiohead for exactly zero monies, which ended up being cool because that's honestly about how much I think it's worth.  I deleted it after two or three listens.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Phaedra on 28 Dec 2007, 17:36
I download a lot of music from the Mediafire thread. This enables me to buy music on vinyl, as I like to own records but don't like to lug my turntable around on the bus or in my car.
The internet is a good thing sometimes!
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Tehz on 28 Dec 2007, 18:50
I buy probably 3/4's of my music. The other quarter is either borrowed from friends or downloaded from QC's own Mediafire thread.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: IronOxide on 28 Dec 2007, 19:26
I don't. I wish I could and always intend to when I have money, but it always ends up going to other things. I guess I have poor self-control.

I should probably get a job one of these days so I can pay for this stuff.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Hat on 28 Dec 2007, 19:44
I typically don't buy records from my local independent record store, because they are jerks. Thats neither here nor there though, but I am just bitter because the only independent record store in the city I can bear to shop in closed down last week. Anyway,  I still buy  quite a bit of music. Not a ridiculous amount I'll admit, I too lack any ability to be sensible with money and I typically set myself a budget of two albums a week.

And thats my story!
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: casull on 28 Dec 2007, 20:09
I was thinking about buying Wold's Screech Owl and Baroness's Red purely because I couldn't find 'em, but then somebody gave me a waffles invite at a party the day before Christmas Free Leech hit, and now I have every hard-to-get album I have wanted in the last few months.  :lol:

Basically, I steal the music then buy a shirt or go to a show if I really like it. If the band/artist is small-time enough that a fan letter might mean something, I usually write them a letter telling them why I enjoy their music and how cool they are.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: KharBevNor on 28 Dec 2007, 20:20
I barely ever buy music. I don't know of any record stores I can get to easily except HMV. If I did, I probably would. Maybe. There's the little problem of finding anything I actually like of course. Most record stores in the south of the UK are normally clean out of Nachtfalke records.

Or maybe not. CD's cost too much fucking money, they're bulky, they're inconvenient and I often as not end up breaking them.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: mfpole on 28 Dec 2007, 20:25
I think the music I've downloaded has eclipsed the music I've bought recently. Being in high school, I don't have time for a steady job around my work and sports, so I download alot of stuff.

Physical copies of records and CD's are better than just those .rar files but I don't think I could ever reach the point where I'll legally own everything I have so far. Record stores are awesome but usually I won't pick up something I've already downloaded unless its some classic record that I want the vinyl for or some album I've been playing the shit out of so I have a real copy. Records stores for me are another way to find music in addition to downloading. That sounds backwards, but that's how it works for me. I'm still somewhat reliant on CD's though because I avoid Ipod's (too afraid I'll lose it).

I'm in a pretty good spot though, to put it one way, my dad's favorite band is Gang of Four. So he'll take me to a record store for my birthday (going to Newbury Comics in Boston is becoming a tradition) and I'll go crazy there.

On a related note, I got paid 20$ for my band's gig on Sunday and I immediately spent it on a Les Savy Fav 7" and a Chavez compilation, so yeah go me!
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Hat on 28 Dec 2007, 20:36
CD's cost too much fucking money, they're bulky, they're inconvenient and I often as not end up breaking them.

I will never figure out what you people are doing to your CDs to render them such a flimsy and unusable format.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: monkandmovies13 on 28 Dec 2007, 21:03
I buy Cds. Not on iTunes, but I go to stores and buy hard copies. All my friends make fun of me for it and don't understand it, but the way I see it, the few extra bucks you pay for an actual CD as opposed to one on iTunes aren't just for the music, but you're also paying for the artwork, liner notes, etc. I also just recently got a turntable, so I'm buying a lot of vinyl now as well. I love small record stores...I love sorting through the stacks of vinyl and seeing what everyone else is buying and hearing what they're talking about music-wise. Just before I got my turntable and I was convincing my mom to buy me one, I spent literally an hour and a half in there, looking at and sorting through the stacks of records. I'm pretty sure the people there think I'm insane, but it's so much fun. I'll be very sad when all my favorite record stores close down. They're such happy, wonderful places.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Gridgm on 28 Dec 2007, 21:04
CD's cost too much fucking money, they're bulky, they're inconvenient and I often as not end up breaking them.

I will never figure out what you people are doing to your CDs to render them such a flimsy and unusable format.

i can't work out how they can say that and then turn around and promote vinyl
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: jimbunny on 28 Dec 2007, 21:10
I have a subscription to emusic.com

...

and the mediafire thread.

CDs aren't a terrible format, but if I had a convenient, purely digital way of pulling tunes through my speakers I don't know if I'd ever buy another CD again (unless I couldn't find it any other way - and then I'd just rip it and forget about it). All those cases and liner notes, they pretty much sit in my room and look pretty. I don't really ever consult them, unless it's to update my mp3 tags.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: casull on 28 Dec 2007, 21:11
For me, forums like this + torrents are a perfectly good replacement for a record store, but then I was never terribly romantic about 'em anyway.

As far as CDs go, it seems like every time I would actually use one rather than just rip it and put it on my shelf, I would break it. Maybe some people don't share computers, have little brothers, insert hardship here,  blah blah blah, but I always end up with broken CD if I keep it around and use it.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Hat on 28 Dec 2007, 21:13
A whole bunch of stuff on the aesthetic pleasures of buying music

I find the actual experience of buying the music is a massive part of it for me. I have a lot of friends who only buy CDs from sites on the internet, and I just could never imagine doing that. Even if theres an album I specifically want to buy, its nice to poke around, look at the 9.99 and less racks, and chat to the clerk at the counter. Plus quite a few albums I've bought on hearing them after kicking around the store for half an hour trying to find albums I want.

Also, I am just glad that someone else agrees with me there Gridgm, I thought maybe I was going mad or I had been placed in a world populated entirely by mad-people without my knowledge, but it is good to know I am not completely insane.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Jackie Blue on 28 Dec 2007, 21:54
I don't think I could ever reach the point where I'll legally own everything I have so far

This is such an alien concept.  Consider that less than a decade ago, it was pretty difficult to own any music that you DIDN'T pay for, aside from people making you tapes.

I think that one appreciates music more if one doesn't have 9,000 mp3s, but rather a collection of albums, all of which were purchased, listened to and considered rather than just downloaded on a whim.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Hat on 28 Dec 2007, 21:57
I agree with this, more or less. Even sound quality issues and equipment issues aside, I find its a much more clearly defined leisure activity when I listen to a CD. I listen to MP3s on my computer or on an MP3 player, typically used when I am doing work/killing time on the internet or just travelling from A to B. I mostly download albums by bands I haven't heard, listen to enough of their stuff to make a fair assessment if it would be worthwhile to add them to my "list of  bands to look for albums for" when album shopping, and thats that. Honestly, there are huge swathes of my MP3 collection from Oink that I haven't even given more than one listen to yet, or sometimes I Get a few tracks in and decide I'm not in the mood for it, whereas with a CD I'm more likely to give it a shot all the way through for some reason. I guess I am just lazy?
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: mfpole on 28 Dec 2007, 22:05
Thinking about that, it's a pretty legit point. I rememeber when I was in 7th grade and the 10 or so CD's I personally owned would sit alphabetized in a rack, with the CD sitting in the perfect alignment. But I guess now with downloading, tastes just become so much more eclectic and iTunes libraries just get so much bigger, without the physical copy some of the non music related emotions/feelings/sensations get lost.

Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Kyros on 28 Dec 2007, 22:20
If there actually WAS a Record store that sold music that I wanted at a fair price I'd shop there.  There isn't though, so when I do buy an album it's either on Itunes or the new awesome Amazon mp3 store.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Johnny C on 29 Dec 2007, 01:01
Part of the thing is that buying records costs quite a bit of money, and it's money that I don't generally have.

Today I had a gift certificate, plus it was a Boxing Week sale at the local independent record store, so I bought four new records. Next paycheck or so I want to put in a mail-order to Dischord in order to get the Fugazi records I don't have.

The fact is, though, that I don't buy a whole lot of music because I get a paycheck and I kind of want to go out and do things with friends and buy other stuff and I have to pay for gas and I have to get lunch at university and since I'm working a shitty job that apparently doesn't even pay as much as it used to (I found this out tonight and I was not pleased) I manage to buy maybe two albums a month.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Ocarina654 on 29 Dec 2007, 01:04
Like many people here I don't have a lot of money to spend on music.

The fact that there isn't an independent record store anywhere near here.  There used to be one less than a mile from my house, and I bought both CDs and Vinyls (even before I had a turntable) from there when it was around.  But since I hardly had any money it was somewhere around one CD every few months.  Now its gone and the closest record stores are quite far away and hardly worth the time to go for one or two records.
Also, while that store was open I was mostly into Metal of the Power and Progressive genres, and they didn't carry any Blind Guardian, Symphony X, or whatever else, so most of my music was purchased online.
Since its been around I've bought my Therion music from their online store, though, so I directly support the band.

I quite dislike buying albums in digital formats, like from iTunes.  You miss out on so much when you buy digital music, like art, liner notes, sound quality, and the freedom to put that music on whatever MP3 player you want with little hassle.
Why buy digital when that's always included with a CD (as far as you have a computer with a CD drive, something no one buying digitally lacks).

So yeah, I buy when I can, but mostly I download.  I wish I didn't download as much, but at the same time I  like the music I keep (and I do delete what I don't like/listen to) enough to keep getting more without paying.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Joseph on 29 Dec 2007, 01:07
I buy music very frequently.  I absolutely love going and browsing record stores, and can lose hours in them.  When I have money to spend, and no plans to go out in the immediate future, it almost always ends up being turned into albums.  Usually half of what I buy is stuff I've already downloaded, because I like to own it.  I have a collection of some 300 or so CDs, and that number is slowly rising, though recently I have begun buying vinyl.  This past week, because there have been some great sales, especially one at my favourite record store (Scratch, which also runs a record label which has put out albums by Swan Lake, Destroyer, and Frog Eyes), I have bought ten records and a couple of CDs.  I like to think I am playing my part as best I can.  Obviously, that is not how much music I typically buy in a week though.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Hat on 29 Dec 2007, 01:20
The fact is, though, that I don't buy a whole lot of music because I get a paycheck and I kind of want to go out and do things with friends and buy other stuff and I have to pay for gas and I have to get lunch at university and since I'm working a shitty job that apparently doesn't even pay as much as it used to (I found this out tonight and I was not pleased) I manage to buy maybe two albums a month.

I just find this kind of thing quite interesting, because Johnny, you are definately one of the more obsessive (knowledgeable? I am trying to come up with a word that doesn't make me sound like I am just being a dick here) people on the music forum, and I hear this same thing a lot from people who are very similar a lot and I find it a little bit frightening, really. I mean, I took out a second job so I could afford to buy more than one album a week, and I am nowhere near the biggest music nerd on this forum by a long shot. I think its just a shame (and I'm not saying you're doing this johnny, its just I've noticed it goes hand in hand with the 'I can't afford to buy many records but I totally would if I had more money' mentality) that people really don't seem to collect music they way they used to.

Nowadays I can't shake the feeling that its very commonplace nowadays to treat buying a record as less of an experience of acquiring something you love, and more of a political statement. I keep hearing people say "I only buy records from independent record stores" or "I only buy records on independent labels" or "I just go to the shows and buy straight from the band" and theres good arguments for all those things, but people just seem so proud of it. It's much easier to acquire an album from a major label on the internet, and it'll teach the big record companies a lesson!

I guess I am saying maybe things have just gotten kind of complicated and I guess I'm slightly bothered that a group of people who profess to and do really seem to love music as much as a lot of people here do, would consider buying new music anything but a very high priority.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: voidSkipper on 29 Dec 2007, 02:35
I'm started to get more and more fucked off when I buy albums, and they can't be ripped to MP3 because of some stupid content protection. If I fork out for someone's CD, the last thing I want to do is waste my extremely limited bandwidth on downloading an illegal copy of what I /just/ bought.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Der Turm, der Leute frass on 29 Dec 2007, 02:50
I never download music, i oly buy it.
there's no good record store around here, so I buy it over the internet. but whenever I have the possibility to go to a good record store I spend many hours and lots of money there.
I've spent more than 4700 $ on CDs this year, I guess that's pretty much.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: valley_parade on 29 Dec 2007, 07:02
I buy used vinyl. Occasionally I'll buy a CD (I think the last CD I bought was something from AtDI).


Speaking of buying music, I have an EP for sale....

Just sayin'.

Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Johnny C on 29 Dec 2007, 09:45
I guess I am saying maybe things have just gotten kind of complicated and I guess I'm slightly bothered that a group of people who profess to and do really seem to love music as much as a lot of people here do, would consider buying new music anything but a very high priority.

I do consider it a fairly high priority. The other night was a CD release party for a local band and I spent the last ten bucks in my wallet on their EP instead of getting anything else. Once again, though, I have a lot of stuff I have to pay for and sometimes it really comes down to "be a recluse for a week" or "don't buy music." About a third of the time I wind up actually going with the first option.

Music isn't a particularly inexpensive pastime and unfortunately I have quite a few pastimes. The difference between this and saying "I'd buy more albums if I had more money" is simply that I don't buy as many albums.

It blows, though. I wish I had enough money to buy albums. It's almost too much as it is to be working a part-time job and going to university full-time though so I can't really earn a whole lot more. Things will probably change in this regard once I'm paid for working forty hours a week with a degree.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: valley_parade on 29 Dec 2007, 09:48
"I'd buy more albums if I had more money" is simply that I don't buy as many albums.

That's why I go with the used vinyl. I can pick up two at the local antique stores for what a new CD would cost.

Instead of buying albums though, I should really save up and get a functioning turntable.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: KharBevNor on 29 Dec 2007, 10:10
I will never figure out what you people are doing to your CDs to render them such a flimsy and unusable format.

This is a Sony CD Walkman:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/Sony_CD_Walkman_D-E330.jpg/800px-Sony_CD_Walkman_D-E330.jpg)

It is bulky, not only large but an awkward shape. It holds one CD at once, extra CDs must be carried seperately, in cases to prevent scratching. If the CDs do become scratched they will probably not work. Such a player jogs even with anti-shock. It has no additional functions apart from being a CD player.

This is a Creative MuVo:

(http://i.pricerunner.com/prod/4_6_2_12_502645s/Creative_MuVo_TX_FM_512MB_Black.jpeg)

It is less than a quarter the size of the walkman, is nigh on indestructible, functions as a memory stick, and can carry around 10 albums worth of songs at good quality. It also has a voice recorder.

This is an Archos 605:

(http://www.thebeefjerkyblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/archos605.jpg)

Though only slightly smaller than the CD walkman, it has a far more practical shape and comes with a protective case. It has an 80 gigabyte hard drive, which can store thousands of albums, not to mention it can play back video files and e-books, not to mention record off of a television as a sort of pocket TiVo, or play music and video files from the internet on the GODDAMN TV.

What I am trying to say is, why would I ever want to touch a CD again? I won't get better sound out of one, and I won't get artwork at a size worth having, both factors that, I think, justify the existence of vinyl. The CD is digital technologies retarded child. It's bulky, expensive and flimsy.

However, I refuse to buy mp3s. Ever. I r hypocrite!   
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Chrasstor on 29 Dec 2007, 11:30
There's no record stores that sell the albums that I listen to where I currently live.

So no.

I download.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Tom on 29 Dec 2007, 11:56
Same here.

There was a thread about downloading music awhile back and several people agreed with the idea that bands should be more focussed on making money from touring and merch than there CD's. I'd get you a quote but I just got up and feeling pretty tired.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Jackie Blue on 29 Dec 2007, 12:11
There are many srtists who make music which is not ever going to make anything more than gas money from touring (and not because it's bad or unpopular).

Anything in the realm of ambient-indie: Windy & Carl, Labradford, Christmas Decorations, etc. etc.  I'm pretty sure almost none of those bands even bother touring.

Anything that is difficult to reproduce live without just using a bunch of pre-recorded tracks - M83, for example.

And merch?  Really?  Pretty much everyone I know stopped buying band t-shirts once they hit 22 or so, unless it's a very special band or very special occasion (or very special shirt).

I know many musicians who make a good amount of scratch from selling CDs, either through small indie labels or their own Myspace/website.

As far as the whole "If I could buy more music, I would, but I'm poor so I steal it" argument: That's generally valid, because I'm sometimes guilty of it myself, but again I'll refer you to before the days of high-speed Internet, Napster and everyone having a CD-burner: I was poor back then.  Exceedingly poor.  This forced me to make choices about the albums I bought, which in turn made those albums exponentially more special to me, and I'd argue that it made me appreciate the music more because, with a limited influx of music into your life, you listen to, analyze and think about what you have, instead of having thousands of songs and hundreds of albums you listened to once and didn't ever re-visit.

The first time I listened to In the Aeroplane Over the Sea, I absolutely despised it.  If I had downloaded it for free I'd have deleted it and likely would have been deprived of eventually appreciating one of the ten best albums of the entire 1990s.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Johnny C on 29 Dec 2007, 12:32
Pretty much everyone I know stopped buying band t-shirts once they hit 22 or so, unless it's a very special band or very special occasion (or very special shirt).

Is there a motivating factor behind this or is it more a Logan's Run-type scenario?

The last point you make is actually a really great one and it makes me glad that I do still buy albums. Once I've sunk the money into a record I can't really bring myself to sell it. I own it so why not keep it? The result is that I've wound up not only appreciating albums that take a while to get into or albums that were underrated and largely missed (see: Twice by The Tyde), but I've also heard some remarkably bad records that were released by bands I used to like and it's helped me to understand what makes that particular record so bad.

Being stuck with an album really isn't that terrible and it's an integral part of the experience.

People without nearby record stores, do you try doing mail-order from the label? Most albums can be bought directly from the label via the internet. Dischord (http://www.dischord.com/store/) in particular is famous for having uniformly low prices on its products but everyone from Sub Pop (http://subpop.com/catalog/formats/full_lengths) to Secretly Canadian (http://www.scdistribution.com/) to Matador Records (http://matadorrecords.com/store/index.php) do mail-order and for the most part they're affordable. The latter label has been pricing a number of its albums in the $8-$10 range as of late. My next paycheque is going in part to Dischord probably, and after that I have to place a big order from Jagjaguwar.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Tom on 29 Dec 2007, 12:41
Matador doesn't ship to Australia, so I had to go and search for a store that would. On top of that, postage is a bitch and PayPal didn't work the first time I tried to pay at least the executive edition of Challengers was worth it.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: KharBevNor on 29 Dec 2007, 12:41
You are happy because your obsessive hoarding tendencies mean you must own bad music?

Hipsters, lol.

In my case, I'm rather sure that, without the internet, I pretty much wouldn't listen to music. So, pretty much every CD, vinyl and bit of merch I've ever bought, every gig or festival I've gone to is pretty much pure profit from the record industries point of view.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Johnny C on 29 Dec 2007, 13:01
I'm happy because as a musician I've learned how to avoid some of the traps that make records into absolute crap. The last Alexisonfire record, for example, showed me that making a "return-to-roots" record isn't always a great idea because it sometimes means putting aside clear growth that you've demonstrated in favour of selling more records.

I mean, I was initially pissed because I'd spent money on it, but at least I got something out of it.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Jackie Blue on 29 Dec 2007, 13:38
Is there a motivating factor behind this or is it more a Logan's Run-type scenario?

Unless the t-shirt is exceptional in some way, wearing band t-shirts reeks of letting your artistic taste define you.  It's just kind of tacky.

That said, I'm wearing a Smiths t-shirt right now.  In my defense, I didn't pay for it.  Girls give me enough shirts that I think I've literally only bought one or two shirts in the past, I don't know, decade.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Tom on 29 Dec 2007, 13:55
I'm happy because as a musician I've learned how to avoid some of the traps that make records into absolute crap. The last Alexisonfire record, for example, showed me that making a "return-to-roots" record isn't always a great idea because it sometimes means putting aside clear growth that you've demonstrated in favour of selling more records.

I mean, I was initially pissed because I'd spent money on it, but at least I got something out of it.

Now I'm kind of worried about what The Dears are working on.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: yossarian07 on 29 Dec 2007, 15:29
I'd say I but 1/4 of my cd's. One of my favorite stores is Vintage Vynil, which is a great Independant Record store in St Louis. I'll buy an album or two whenever I'm in the area, but its a bit of a drive. They block torrents where I go to college, so when I'm at school I buy cd's more often.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Thrillho on 29 Dec 2007, 15:34
Is there a motivating factor behind this or is it more a Logan's Run-type scenario?

Unless the t-shirt is exceptional in some way, wearing band t-shirts reeks of letting your artistic taste define you.  It's just kind of tacky.

I'm sorry, endorsing a band you like is now tacky? What the fuck? Where has this come from?
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Jackie Blue on 29 Dec 2007, 15:49
I see it as tacky because it's branding.  I highly doubt that wearing a band's t-shirt has any effect other than alllowing other people to recognise you as part of a certain subgroup.  Just wearing a shirt that says BAND is not "endorsing" them.  It's not like people are going to pass by you on the street, see your shirt and think "Wow, I should buy that album!"

If the band t-shirt is artistically pleasing, that's cool.  But, at least everywhere I've been, there is a certain very prevalent kind of person who meticulously chooses which BAND t-shirt to wear for maximum Style Points, especially when going to a show.  Speaking for myself and most people I know, it's better to dissociate oneself from that demographic.

And that is not even getting into "ironic" t-shirt wearing.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: KvP on 29 Dec 2007, 16:03
Personally, wearing a band's t-shirt is the result of my having paid for the shirt, as getting merch at a show is the most direct way I know of supporting the artists I like. I wear them because I have them. It has nothing to do with being defined as a member of a subgroup. I want nothing to do with some of the fanbases that you say are associated with my shirts.

Hell, I'm wearing a Ray Davies shirt right now. I couldn't care less about his solo work (though I do like the Kinks) but my dad brought me along to his show a few years ago and got me this apparel. I'm not the sort of person to meticulously choose anything I wear. I suppose that's worse than the opposite.

As far as the original question posed goes, when I started going to school full-time and left my job was probably the last time I bought music with my own money, and that was... a year and a half ago. So I'm part of the problem. But I'm getting a new job and itunes has lifted its bitrate and DRM restrictions, so I'll probably start buying again soon.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Tom on 29 Dec 2007, 16:26
I see it as tacky because it's branding.  I highly doubt that wearing a band's t-shirt has any effect other than alllowing other people to recognise you as part of a certain subgroup.  Just wearing a shirt that says BAND is not "endorsing" them.  It's not like people are going to pass by you on the street, see your shirt and think "Wow, I should buy that album!"

If the band t-shirt is artistically pleasing, that's cool.  But, at least everywhere I've been, there is a certain very prevalent kind of person who meticulously chooses which BAND t-shirt to wear for maximum Style Points, especially when going to a show.  Speaking for myself and most people I know, it's better to dissociate oneself from that demographic.

And that is not even getting into "ironic" t-shirt wearing.


What about patches and armbands?
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Jackie Blue on 29 Dec 2007, 16:32
The only people around here who wear patches are 14-18 year old "punk" kids who cover their jean jackets and pants in Crass and Dead Kennedys patches.

They're funny.

(NB: Some of them are my friends, admittedly.)
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: GenericName on 29 Dec 2007, 16:42
itunes has lifted its bitrate and DRM restrictions

Why have I not heard about this? It seems like a happy thing that I should have been alerted to the moment it happened.

EDIT: Apparently I checked and it's just for some EMI stuff? Darn.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Jackie Blue on 29 Dec 2007, 16:47
Wait, hang on. Since when was the desire to meet people who likes the same music as yourself become tacky? And what's bad about identifying yourself with a particular demography? Meeting people with common interests is a bad thing?

I've never "met" anyone just because of a t-shirt.  I've never had someone walk up to me and say "You like that band?  I like that band!  Let's be pals!"  Nor have I ever done that to another person.

In my experience, liking the same music as someone else is hideously low on the priority list wrt judging how well I'll get along with them.  Most of my best friends have atrocious or mediocre taste in music, and many people I know with awesome taste in music are not very cool at all.

I mean, there are only so many conversations you can have that go "This band is awesome."  "Totally."  "I like this song."  "Yeah, this song is good."

Maybe I'm weird, but I prefer talking about more substantial things.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Tom on 29 Dec 2007, 17:09
The only people around here who wear patches are 14-18 year old "punk" kids who cover their jean jackets and pants in Crass and Dead Kennedys patches.

They're funny.

(NB: Some of them are my friends, admittedly.)


I have one of these
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1227/731986316_43d6a2b884_m.jpg)
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: squawk on 29 Dec 2007, 17:12
In the UK, it's very hard to meet anyone who likes the same kind of music I like. In fact, apart from at shows I never actually have.

So yeah, I would like to be spotted wearing a band t-shirt, just for the kinship of someone who likes a band that I like.

Hasn't happened yet admittedly.

Didn't you get your Wii with the help of a Sonic Youth t-shirt?
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Spinless on 29 Dec 2007, 17:15
I'd wear band shirts, but the band shirts I'd wear don't exist. Like...
The Ghost drinking Vodka on the cover for Precious Blood? I'd wear that on a tee. It doesn't exist! I am seriously going to make a stencil for that.

Now, I'm pretty poor. But I must have spent £800 on CDs in 2 years. I regret it! Sure, I helped to keep my favourite stores in business, but I spent £800 on bits of plastic!!!!
Each time I see a band live, I end up spending all the money I have on me on merch. Unless I end up hating the band. But still, I do it because I'd like their support if/when I eventually do the same thing.

Support your artist, support your distributor. I hear people talking about buying merch at shows, but even though that might feed the band for a few days, record labels and music stores are still getting shut down because people just don't buy things anymore.


STOP FUCKING POSTING YOU ASSHOLES! Why is there a new reply EVERY TIME I click submit? CUT THAT SHIT OUT!
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: RedLion on 29 Dec 2007, 17:16
For a time, I refused to even buy an iPod or download songs at all, from linewire or Kazaa or anything. But eventually I just couldn't hold out any longer..I had to give in to the "dark side," as it were. I feel guilty about it, though, and it's no substitute for having that feeling of having purchased something, of it being truly yours, of it physically being in your hands. It's a sort of cheapening of music...but then again, it's also opening up the music scene to bands that never would have gotten any exposure before. So..I don't know where I stand on this question. I still buy albums from time to time, but I often use bittorrent, or things like the mediafire thread here. I need money for other things. But I feel bad, as I'm a semi-aspiring musician myself.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: KvP on 29 Dec 2007, 17:24
EDIT: Apparently I checked and it's just for some EMI stuff? Darn.
It seems I was mistaken, then. Drat.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Jackie Blue on 29 Dec 2007, 17:24
I do have friends I talk about music with, it's just that generally it takes up a pretty small percentage of our conversation-time.

Anyways, I'm not totally down on talking to someone because of how they're dressed - I fully admit that I try and "dress cool" - I'm just saying that unless a band t-shirt looks really awesome, I don't see much point in wearing it just to show off that I'm a fan.  There is precedent for this kind of thinking, I'm not just a lone nutjob: Pavement made their t-shirts intentionally hideous looking so that no one except hipsters would be dumb enough to buy them.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Tom on 29 Dec 2007, 17:35
One last thing to the downloaders, what happens when your computer fucks up and you lose everything?

I always have a backup of my hard drive.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: KharBevNor on 29 Dec 2007, 18:31
I make my own band t-shirts, and own two patch covered jackets of differing design.

I guess I can't play with the cool kids now.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: RedLion on 29 Dec 2007, 18:37
Ah But its so much easier to judge people by the Band shirts they wear than to actually acquaint oneself to them.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: sk8brder40 on 29 Dec 2007, 19:06
So you find absolutely no joy in browsing a used/new record store and stumbling across new or weird things?  Legitimate question, because it has been brought to my attention that there are people under the age of 23 or so who have literally never set foot in a record store.

I'm old.   :-(

Would you be angry if I asked what's a record store?
Hahaha, I really don't think there are any record stores where I am..
I always buy from itunes, occasionally from stores, and sometimes illegally dl'ing :X
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: est on 29 Dec 2007, 19:13
I think that one appreciates music more if one doesn't have 9,000 mp3s, but rather a collection of albums, all of which were purchased, listened to and considered rather than just downloaded on a whim.

I can agree with this.  I upgraded my hardware a while back and with that I reformatted, reinstalled, etc.  I only pulled across the mp3s I was liking at the time and as a result I found I actually listened to more music.  I am guessing it was because less choice translated to less sifting through crap to get to what I felt like listening to.  As a result instead of about 80gb of music and growing I now try to keep it under 10.

The way I am doing this relates back to the original question.  I am someone who has pirated basically everything in the past.  I am slowly coming to realise though that I am in the position where this is totally inexcusable and am working toward stopping that.  However, I am not the kind of person who likes poking about in music stores, buying things on a whim and seeing if I like it.  Instead I am taking the following approach: Download things that you might be interested in.  Give it a month to sink in, then if you like it buy it from your favourite music store to encourage them to stock more of that kind of music.  If not, delete it.  I am currently attempting to catch up with purchasing cds and such for things I already have and know I like.

That said, though.  I have about 50 cds on my desk and about 250 more in a container in my spare room, so I guess I have been buying cds in the past, just not everything I've been downloading.  If I had the money right now I could probably go out and buy another 25-30 cds and still not be totally in the clear, so I have a bit of work ahead of me.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: E. Spaceman on 29 Dec 2007, 20:10
There are not very many decent record shops near here, sadly. As a result i don't really buy that much music. When i do find one though, i often spend too much money on it! I have lately been more discriminating about downloading stuff and as a result i enjoy things more.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Shadows Collide on 29 Dec 2007, 23:48
In answer to the question... as much as an unemployed, somewhat privileged 18 year-old who doesn't have a large sum of money inherited to him can (cough- ishotdanieljohnston - cough)
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Statik on 30 Dec 2007, 00:18
Id like to buy everything I have acquired illegally, and I slowly work on it.  For important (to me) new releases, such as Clutch - Beale Street, I go to a local store (non big electronics store, although, I have to say, after working for best buy, they do get some surprisingly hard to find metal releases..) anyway, big new release, I will very RARELY go in to purchase, say, the new Clutch album and not come out with 2-4 more CDs of stuff I have downloaded.

I buy them as I have spare money to spend on them.

HOWEVER, there is a problem, the vast majority of what I listen to (outside of some underground hip hop and rap) doesnt come from this country.  And while I will purchase albums by bands who release here, for some bands, Im not spending $25-$30 on a SINGLE CD just because it wasn't officially released here.  A lot of the metal I listen to just does not exist in this country outside of insanely overpriced imports.  Additionally, I wouldnt know of many of the bands if it werent for things like slsk.  So its kind of a double edged sword, I get exposure to all these great bands, but I cannot really afford to "support" them in the sense of buying their albums.  For the price of ONE imported CD from Russia, or Germany, or wherever, I can buy three CDs of bands who do tour here.

I could have a whole discussion about the moral issues with MP3s, but I would assume that the subject has been just as beaten here as everywhere else on the net.  Everyone by this point probably has their opinion on it, and no one is going to change peoples minds anymore.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Johnny C on 30 Dec 2007, 01:10
I think that one appreciates music more if one doesn't have 9,000 mp3s, but rather a collection of albums, all of which were purchased, listened to and considered rather than just downloaded on a whim.

I can agree with this.

I definitely agree with the sentiment behind it, which is that having a hard drive full of music doesn't mean that you are actually any more knowledgeable or passionate about music.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Beastmouth on 30 Dec 2007, 01:27
I bought a Korg Polysix tonight.  ^__^





On topic:  I buy records at shows and cool ones when I'm at the record store.  Of course, I only go to the record store when my wallet's too heavy...
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Thrillho on 30 Dec 2007, 01:54
I've never "met" anyone just because of a t-shirt.  I've never had someone walk up to me and say "You like that band?  I like that band!  Let's be pals!"  Nor have I ever done that to another person.

In my experience, liking the same music as someone else is hideously low on the priority list wrt judging how well I'll get along with them.  Most of my best friends have atrocious or mediocre taste in music, and many people I know with awesome taste in music are not very cool at all.

I think that these are the two most relevant things you've said so far.

I wear a band t-shirt becuase I like that band, and yes I have made friends with people who like those bands. And it's not like I buy shirts that look like shit, of course I find them 'artistically pleasing' otherwise I wouldn't wear them. I'm not some fucking Calvin Kleine clothes horse or something, I wear the clothes I want to wear, not the clothes the adverts say I should wear.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Johnny C on 30 Dec 2007, 08:55
Not wearing band t-shirts doesn't mean you're subscribing to anyone else's idea of what you should wear.

I don't think it's tacky because I don't mind my artistic taste being a defining part of my person. It is a defining part of my person, whether I like it or not. I can see where you're coming from though, because a lot of bands have really ugly-as-sin shirts. Metric springs to mind almost instantly - the shirt I bought was pretty nice but the rest were ugly as shit. Someone buying them just to show off that they're a Metric fan is something I can see and something I wouldn't condone. I bought a shirt because I'm a fan but also because it doesn't look like someone drew it with the wrong hand, and in fact it fits nicely in the rest of my wardrobe.

Though I guess theoretically an incredibly ugly shirt could fit in someone's wardrobe too.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: snowball on 30 Dec 2007, 10:16
I use downloading as a way to find new music.

I do buy music, I order everything i can on vinyl. (from insound, music direct or e-bay mostly) I use my local independent stores if they have what i want.
I've been buying one album every other day for a while now. Im an audiophile so downloads don't cut it for me.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Scarychips on 30 Dec 2007, 10:22
Yes I do buy music, I'm the only one of my age (around 14-15 years old) that I know who keeps buying music, even after downloading it, I'll go buy the record. And I plan on buying more since I recently discovered my father have a turntable. It's easier for me to buy records too, since my mom works at the Archambault Headquarters in downtown Montreal, I can have the records at a low price since they have an employee-rebate (I think it a 50% rebate on records).  
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: a pack of wolves on 30 Dec 2007, 11:03
I almost never buy something I've downloaded, it would have to be something that had become one of my very favourites for me to do that. I do much prefer records but there's so much stuff I'd like to get hold of I always go for something I can't find online, which is almost always DIY stuff of one kind or another, rather than something I already have mp3s of. Because of this record shops aren't much use, distros (online or at gigs) or direct from bands is cheaper and vastly more likely to have what I want. Of late I haven't had enough money to buy any records at all (aside from the odd incredibly cheap second hand purchase), preferring things which I can't get a very good approximation of for free.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: sandman263 on 30 Dec 2007, 11:42
Hmmm, I see a big discrepancy with this one....  :wink:

"So, are you part of the problem?  Do you download amazing albums from the Mediafire thread and then NOT actually buy the album?  Are you a music leech or do you vote with your wallets to keep good musicians out of the poorhouse and making more good music for you to listen to?  If you have a local used/new store, do you shop there, even though you can go on Amazon and feed the corporate whoremachine because a used disc on there might be a couple dollars cheaper? Do you buy new albums from Amazon instead of directly from the label, which is almost always cheaper anyway?"

Buying an album through the label (and even through Amazon) equates to the usual revenue split for musicians -  about 10% of the CD's value (check out http://www.wired.com/entertainment/music/magazine/16-01/ff_byrne for one of the most interesting and relevant articles on music trends in the last year - buying on iTunes means even less for the artist). So while it's cheaper, it's not helping the artist in any way whatsoever - so you're not keeping them out of the poorhouse, you're keeping them in it. Artists revenues come through merchandise and touring, and not through CD sales in the traditional sense. So even when you buy through your local independant shops, you're probably not helping, unless you know what % of the sale goes to the artist.

As for me, I download & buy, and when I buy, I buy off some of the large independant online CD suppliers catering to artists, where up to 90% of the money goes to the artist directly ( CDBaby.com is a great example of this). When I download, I do it to discover new music. The sheer amount of music I've purchased since I started downloading is huge - downloading helps me discover, and keeps my options (and mind) open to new artists and genres. When I find someone I really love, I buy everything I can by them.

I'd love to say I browse my local CD store - but my local CD store is 30 minutes away by car, and the average cost of a CD is around $40 (when converted from Euro). Throw in the fact that the people working in the stores are hired in bulk, and with about enough muscial knowledge to tell me about the new Britney Spears album, and you have the main reasons I'm an advocate of getting your music online, or buying your CD's online, where it benefits the artist - and this means not in local or national stores....
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Jackie Blue on 30 Dec 2007, 11:57
Buying an album through the label (and even through Amazon) equates to the usual revenue split for musicians -  about 10% of the CD's value (check out http://www.wired.com/entertainment/music/magazine/16-01/ff_byrne for one of the most interesting and relevant articles on music trends in the last year - buying on iTunes means even less for the artist). So while it's cheaper, it's not helping the artist in any way whatsoever

But you are helping independant labels and stores.

Also, as has been pointed out, an artist receiving a little money from a sale is better than nothing.

Quote
Artists revenues come through merchandise and touring

Did you read the whole thread before posting?  I already addressed this.  There are many artists, and many I know personally, for whom touring is at best a "break-even" endeavor, due usually to the nature of reproducing their music in a live setting.

Quote
and not through CD sales in the traditional sense. So even when you buy through your local independant shops, you're probably not helping, unless you know what % of the sale goes to the artist.

The point was not just to help "the artist", but to help "the industry" - mostly independant labels - by actually paying them for what they are providing you.  This is a pretty simple point.

Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Johnny C on 30 Dec 2007, 12:02
A lot of artists whose releases are actually on labels have to first purchase quantities of their records for sale. A lot of folks don't seem to realise that. The costs of those quantities cover pressing, designing and associated costs that the label has likely covered or helped to cover. In the end buying from CDBaby and the like benefit unsigned artists the most, but for the rest of it you make only a bit more of a difference. Besides, in a case like Dischord, Touch & Go or Mint I'd much rather show the label that I appreciate what they're doing.

I buy from the local record store, the artists at gigs and the labels and artists via the internet. That way, I cover my respective bases: I financially support someone who runs a business I appreciate, I financially support arists when they are in town and I financially support artists that I may never actually see live.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Thrillho on 30 Dec 2007, 12:03
Hmmm, I see a big discrepancy with this one....  :wink:

"So, are you part of the problem?  Do you download amazing albums from the Mediafire thread and then NOT actually buy the album?  Are you a music leech or do you vote with your wallets to keep good musicians out of the poorhouse and making more good music for you to listen to?  If you have a local used/new store, do you shop there, even though you can go on Amazon and feed the corporate whoremachine because a used disc on there might be a couple dollars cheaper? Do you buy new albums from Amazon instead of directly from the label, which is almost always cheaper anyway?"

Buying an album through the label (and even through Amazon) equates to the usual revenue split for musicians -  about 10% of the CD's value (check out http://www.wired.com/entertainment/music/magazine/16-01/ff_byrne for one of the most interesting and relevant articles on music trends in the last year - buying on iTunes means even less for the artist). So while it's cheaper, it's not helping the artist in any way whatsoever - so you're not keeping them out of the poorhouse, you're keeping them in it. Artists revenues come through merchandise and touring, and not through CD sales in the traditional sense. So even when you buy through your local independant shops, you're probably not helping, unless you know what % of the sale goes to the artist.

As for me, I download & buy, and when I buy, I buy off some of the large independant online CD suppliers catering to artists, where up to 90% of the money goes to the artist directly ( CDBaby.com is a great example of this). When I download, I do it to discover new music. The sheer amount of music I've purchased since I started downloading is huge - downloading helps me discover, and keeps my options (and mind) open to new artists and genres. When I find someone I really love, I buy everything I can by them.

I'd love to say I browse my local CD store - but my local CD store is 30 minutes away by car, and the average cost of a CD is around $40 (when converted from Euro). Throw in the fact that the people working in the stores are hired in bulk, and with about enough muscial knowledge to tell me about the new Britney Spears album, and you have the main reasons I'm an advocate of getting your music online, or buying your CD's online, where it benefits the artist - and this means not in local or national stores....

All you shitty newbies, make note - THIS is the way you start on this forum.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: a pack of wolves on 30 Dec 2007, 12:18
Is helping the industry necessarily a good thing? Even if it is the independent side of it. I'm not sure if I have a good answer to that myself.

For example, there's a great little record shop here in Leeds called Out Of Step which specialises in punk music of one kind or another. When it opened I was about 15 and it was a revelation, all of a sudden there was somewhere I could go to buy all these punk records that I'd heard about in zines and pick up gig flyers at the same time. Now, it seems to be dying like many other shops of its type. Part of me is very sad about this, I used to love that place. On the other hand I can't remember the last time I went to it for something other than a gig ticket. Part of the reason for that is that I just don't listen to punk and hardcore as much as I used to and if I do feel the need I've already got a pretty hefty collection of the stuff to dip into. The other part is that when I do want something like that these days it's much more convenient and cheaper for me to order from a distro like SuperFi (http://www.superfirecords.co.uk/). Sure, it's not as pleasurable a shopping experience as flicking through a pile of records in a shop where Black Flag is on the stereo in the background, but is that really a good enough reason for me to pay the extra? It seems not, since I don't. I guess what I'm getting at with all that is that although the independent record shop is a nice place and I will be sorry to see it go, does it really have that much a function anymore?

Independent labels and distros on the other hand are a whole different kettle of fish, I think they'll always be around since the purposes they serve (distribution, promotion, fronting recording costs, helping out with tour money, organising split releases etc) will probably always exist in one way or another.

I agree with zerodrone about touring though. I have met very few DIY artists who make money touring, most of us would be ecstatic to even break even. Breaking even on a record is much more common though.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: sandman263 on 30 Dec 2007, 12:23
But you are helping independant labels and stores.

Also, as has been pointed out, an artist receiving a little money from a sale is better than nothing.

And what is the point in having hundreds of independant stores, if there are no artists providing the music? Supporting the independant labels is different - I heartily agree with supporting these.

As for artists receiving a little money from a sale - I recommend Steve Albini's article (found at http://www.negativland.com/albini.html ). A typical band member earns about 1/3 as much as they would working as a store clerk off any new release.

Did you read the whole thread before posting?  I already addressed this.  There are many artists, and many I know personally, for whom touring is at best a "break-even" endeavor, due usually to the nature of reproducing their music in a live setting.

Indeed I did. Most of my friends still pump money into the merchandise stand of most of the bands we go and see, and these are people into their 30's. You didn't address this - you gave your perception. And I gave mine - most the artists I know personally, and have talked to after gigs, say that merch is where they make their money. I'm sure that everyone has a different view on this, based on the artists they know and have talked to.

The point was not just to help "the artist", but to help "the industry" - mostly independant labels - by actually paying them for what they are providing you.  This is a pretty simple point.

The industry is based on the output of the artists - they are the lifeblood of the industry. Therefore, I base my buying habits on what supports the artists. Ask yourself which will allow the industry to thrive - every artist getting $8 on each album sale, or your local independant record store getting that $8, and throwing an extra $1 the artists direction? Which would you prefer an artist? Which would encourage you to keep creating music?

Independant labels are a great thing, when I know that the artist is getting a fair deal. In short, I buy where the artists gets the best deal - wherever that may be.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Jackie Blue on 30 Dec 2007, 12:48
As for artists receiving a little money from a sale - I recommend Steve Albini's article (found at http://www.negativland.com/albini.html ).

I, and people much more inside the industry than I, have gone into great detail about why that article is ridiculous and inaccurate and only applies to a relatively small percentage of bands.  I'm not getting into it again.

Quote
Independant labels are a great thing, when I know that the artist is getting a fair deal. In short, I buy where the artists gets the best deal - wherever that may be.

I don't know why you're derailing so massively.  My original question was do you buy music.  You say you do; fine, you're not part of the problem.

The initial sentiment stands, however, that a lot of the younger generation does not buy music in any form, or buys a very small percentage of the music they own and enjoy.

"Musicians should make enough money from their day jobs!  Music shouldn't be a job!"  OK, fair enough, but you know what?  It takes a pretty damn good day job to even afford to be a musician.  Do you have any idea how much money I spend on amps, pedals, guitars, mixers, PA systems, microphones, strings, etc.?  Just having a day job isn't necessarily enough to afford to be the best musician you can; you need to get some supplemental income from the music itself.

The one album I've ever released commercially made the band about $10,000 in the first two years after it was released.  That was pre-Napster and high-speed Internet.  That money helped a lot.

Today, if even only 25% of the people downloaded it, that's a loss of $2500.  That's not pocket change, that's enough to finance a small tour!
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: sandman263 on 30 Dec 2007, 12:57
"Musicians should make enough money from their day jobs!  Music shouldn't be a job!"  OK, fair enough, but you know what?  It takes a pretty damn good day job to even afford to be a musician.  Do you have any idea how much money I spend on amps, pedals, guitars, mixers, PA systems, microphones, strings, etc.?  Just having a day job isn't necessarily enough to afford to be the best musician you can; you need to get some supplemental income from the music itself.

I'm not sure where in my earlier points I gave the impression this was my opinion? My point is that musicians shouldn't need to make enough money from their day jobs, in my perfect world (the real world, alas, dictates otherwise).

My point is that I buy music from whatever source offers the best revenue cut to the artist themselves - and in many cases, independant labels and independant stores are not the answer.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Jackie Blue on 30 Dec 2007, 13:07
But a polite audience owes me the courtesy of not stealing from me.

It's like inviting people to your house for a party.  At least some of them should bring their own beer and weed, and not eat all your leftover pizza in the fridge without asking.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: a pack of wolves on 30 Dec 2007, 13:13
No, not all musicians need a good day job as well as supplemental income from music. I have neither and probably never will but over the years I've accumulated most of the bits and bobs I need. I'm not saying this is the case for anyone else of course, by the sound of it what you do zerodrone is far more equipment-intensive so you do need that money, just that not everyone needs that to make the best music they can. I doubt I will ever release something where the cost is not purely that of the materials and labour of making the record and possibly studio time. Sure, a little extra to help offset the cost of touring, playing gigs and equipment would be nice but I can't see it ever happening and this is fine with me.

As for those downloaders representing a loss of income this may not be the case. Downloaders aren't necessarily people who would have bought the physical record at all. There are those like me who will buy a different record because they downloaded something but still the total amount of money going to bands remains the same. Then there are those who simply wouldn't have bought that many records at all. Sure, they'd have bought a few but possibly not that many. Also, a lot of people mention spending the money in their budget earmarked for music on going to gigs instead of records. They're still loss-making ventures for most people, yes, but as much as they would be without internet downloads? I'm not so sure, there have been plenty of bands I've seen that I wouldn't have bothered about if it weren't for the fact that I'd downloaded their music. Also, I always end up thinking about 'MTV Get Off The Air' when the fall in total sales comes up:
'But sales are slumping
And no one will say why
Could it be they put out one too many lousy records?'

The best part about downloads is that more people are listening to what you made. I like that. Just think, maybe something you or I did will get reviewed somewhere and some kid in Malaysia will then grab it from soulseek. Amazing! Who cares if they never bought a record? Maybe they used the cash to buy a drum kit and make something cool of their own. I call that a fair trade.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: KharBevNor on 30 Dec 2007, 14:19
Is helping the industry necessarily a good thing?

Almost certainly not! The music industry is horrible.

Hell, those two words together, 'music' and 'industry'...just no.

Unless we mean:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/3f/IndustrialRecords.png/150px-IndustrialRecords.png)

Also, is anyone else kind of pissed off when people who mainly buy go on about how only they love music? I fucking live for music. Thats why I download so much. I cannot see any other feasible way I could have discovered most of my favourite artists. I've never seen even a specialist store that sells Blood Axis.

Also, the back catalogues of a lot of my favourite artists are partly, or largely, out of print. So downloading is the only way to hear them apart from second hand records, which are surely worse than downloading, because someone is making money off of it and not a penny goes to the band.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: a pack of wolves on 30 Dec 2007, 14:33
Yeah, that's another good point. I've got quite a thing for old emo bands like The Hated and Guyver-One and the only way to get their physical records is to pay crazy money on ebay. Fuck that, I'm not paying £70 for an LP no matter how good, and I can't see how the downloading resources to get those records would realistically exist if they weren't also used by people for piracy of available records.

As a tool for DIY distribution file sharing is superior to record shops any day of the week. If it's a choice between the two then it's DIY for me every time, and if that means no more record sales then that's that (although I really can't see that happening in my lifetime).
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: the-artful-dodger-rodger on 30 Dec 2007, 15:28
I buy my music, sometimes you cant beat cool album cover art and I like owning something real as a cd.

I usually buy my music at amazon/barnes noble or cd baby

besides dont worry the music industry is dying, a slow painful death.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Ryder on 30 Dec 2007, 17:15
I was curious about how people stand on this, too.

I buy records if I find a good store, but usually it's just a bunch of Norah Jones and Arcade Fire displays, and gaggles of hipster kids. A lot of my library is borrowed cds, but if I really follow a band, I buy their cd no matter what. Mostly as a donation to them, but it's also pretty nice to have something to hold in your hands. To claim as your own! iTunes Music Store is nice convenience sometimes. The selection is better than a record store, but sometimes they just don't have what your looking for. Paypalling ten bucks to buy the cd from the band is usually what I'd do if they're too underground for iTunes, which they usually are.

I just don't think music should be as hoarded as it is, I'm really pro music sharing. Not with copywrited junk, but I always try to explain to musician friends and stuff how important it is to start sharing themselves instead of having torrent sites do it for them behind their backs. I mean, I don't know if anyone's heard of CASH Music, or the last 50 Foot Wave EP Free Music, but it's a really great idea to share your music yourself. It's really worth it to have music available to everyone.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: jeph on 30 Dec 2007, 19:09
I only buy albums occasionally anymore.

For one thing, probably 90% of what I am listening to is European electronic music that is impossible to find in stores near me. I'd use Beatport, but their downloader app refuses to work on any of my computers. So I'm left with Amazon (iffy, kind of a pain in the ass, I don't like having to wait for mail) or BitTorrent (has almost everything, instantly).

Also, if I like a band I yell about them on my website, which has a pretty large audience. So they get free promotion to a couple hundred thousand people in exchange for me downloading their music. Obviously the doesn't benefit bands whose stuff I download and don't enjoy, or don't get excited enough about to mention on my site, but considering that I've made a business out of this very system I don't feel particularly guilty.

Don't most bands make more money off touring and merchandise sales anyway? I seem to remember reading that somewhere.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Jackie Blue on 30 Dec 2007, 19:32
Don't most bands make more money off touring and merchandise sales anyway? I seem to remember reading that somewhere.

"Most" bands barely make enough money from a show to make it to the next show.

A band like Radiohead probably makes more money off touring than albums, yes.  But "most" bands - 99% at minimum - don't do large tours in expensive venues that sell to capacity.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Ryder on 30 Dec 2007, 20:32
Tours are for publicity when you're not a superstar. If you're the leader of the band, you want followers when you do it, since making money is almost impossible.

Maybe ten years ago it was better, but now it's all BitTorrent and iTunes. You don't buy cds at the shows, or even hear about them there. It's all word of mouth.

Plus, you've seriously got to consider how loyal fans can really support music.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: a pack of wolves on 30 Dec 2007, 20:42
What on earth are you talking about? Tours are to play in new places, meet new people and generally have a great time, they are an end in and of themselves. Leader of the band? Followers when you do what? And I can't remember the last time I saw a band who weren't local that didn't have some kind of record for sale at their gigs.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Jackie Blue on 30 Dec 2007, 20:52
But the fact remains that "most" bands - and in fact, the overwhelming majority - don't make much more than enough from a tour to "break even", especially when you consider that you have to take time off from your "day job" in order to tour in the first place.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: a pack of wolves on 30 Dec 2007, 21:01
Or get fired from it because they wouldn't give you the holiday time and you just disappeared on them instead.

However, to get this back to the whole buying music thing I feel the fact that touring is expensive doesn't translate into the fact that people ought to give musicians money for bits of plastic and paper they're happy to do without. Maybe if more bands put out records with really worthwhile packaging then not so many people would be willing to forego them. But here we are, and all in all I don't think it's a bad thing that there are people out there growing up with the idea that music should be free lodged firmly in their minds.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Ryder on 30 Dec 2007, 21:41
What on earth are you talking about? Tours are to play in new places, meet new people and generally have a great time, they are an end in and of themselves. Leader of the band? Followers when you do what? And I can't remember the last time I saw a band who weren't local that didn't have some kind of record for sale at their gigs.
That's pretty much what I'm saying. Band mates get wages, the leader loses money on a lot of tours.

Tours are for publicity, getting fans, getting your music out into the world.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: a pack of wolves on 31 Dec 2007, 05:02
None of what I said is remotely similar to what you're saying. You seem to be describing the life of some woeful bunch of second-rate musical hacks, doomed to get one brief mention in the NME or on local television, believe it will be their route to fame and fortune and then end up being the assistant manager at a Travelodge near Swindon, shaking their head and wondering where it all went wrong as they shed a tear and stare mournfully at a copy of the one CD single they put out on their manager's label.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Johnny C on 31 Dec 2007, 08:53
But the fact remains that "most" bands - and in fact, the overwhelming majority - don't make much more than enough from a tour to "break even", especially when you consider that you have to take time off from your "day job" in order to tour in the first place.

I'm going to use this as a springboard to briefly talk about the New West Concert Series.

New West is something we have here in Regina down at The Club, which is this smaller, more intimate venue located beside a larger venue. The Club isn't big enough to have monitors or anything, it's basically just a tiny bar with carpeting and a spot for bands to play. Now, New West gives emerging bands an opportunity to play without paying to rent the space, and it pays a flat rate of $150 to the headlining act. The Club takes twenty percent of the door and the opening acts get the remainder. Even better, $150 is only about $50 and two beer short of playing a really popular local pub, which doesn't have a cover charge, so after playing there the first time you can probably play a New West show the second time and through merch sales and attendance make enough money off the night that it wasn't a total bust.

They afford do it through grant money, and so far as I can tell it's been successful enough that it's entering its third year.

What I'm saying here is, I wish more cities had a scheme like this so that artists with lower profiles could tour comfortably without completely going bust.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Ryder on 31 Dec 2007, 10:26
None of what I said is remotely similar to what you're saying. You seem to be describing the life of some woeful bunch of second-rate musical hacks, doomed to get one brief mention in the NME or on local television, believe it will be their route to fame and fortune and then end up being the assistant manager at a Travelodge near Swindon, shaking their head and wondering where it all went wrong as they shed a tear and stare mournfully at a copy of the one CD single they put out on their manager's label.
Oh come on. Real good music rarely appeals to the mainstream MTV ear that's used to being fed mind rotting candy. Artists struggle. They either give up and "sell out" and start doing mindless hooks and poppy garbage because it's what makes money, or they can believe in what they're trying to do, and keep going. It's a hard life if you don't have some kind of steady income.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Jackie Blue on 31 Dec 2007, 11:37
It's a hard life if you don't have some kind of steady income.

I wish I had rich parents.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Statik on 31 Dec 2007, 13:01
Don't most bands make more money off touring and merchandise sales anyway? I seem to remember reading that somewhere.

"Most" bands barely make enough money from a show to make it to the next show.

A band like Radiohead probably makes more money off touring than albums, yes.  But "most" bands - 99% at minimum - don't do large tours in expensive venues that sell to capacity.


Um, isn't this in kind of a recursive loop?

If you agree that musicians (excluding superstars) dont make much money from album sales... and only break even (if they are lucky) off of touring... then how do they make money?  How do the members of shitty pop-punk bands and 80s hair metal bands and shit have nice houses with tons of stuff in it? 

Bands make money touring (some of the smaller supporting acts may not make very much, but its to get exposure to sell more records, to eventually be a headliner)  if making music was a completely losing proposition nowadays, we would see a lot less shitty bands coming out every day.  The venues don't make money off of ticket sales, that goes towards paying the bands (in a way).  Basically, if I understand what a friend of mine explained to me, the venue promoters agree to pay band A, B and C on tour Q, X Dollars to show up and play a show at a given club / venue.  Its now up to the club / venue to make that money back through ticket sales and everything else.  The band can then make additional money through merch sales at the show.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Jackie Blue on 31 Dec 2007, 13:09
If you agree that musicians (excluding superstars) dont make much money from album sales...

I didn't say that.  Other people did.

Earlier I said one of my ex-bands made $10,000 off an album, without it even selling many copies, and it was pure profit as we recorded it ourselves.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Statik on 31 Dec 2007, 14:09
If you agree that musicians (excluding superstars) dont make much money from album sales...

I didn't say that.  Other people did.

Earlier I said one of my ex-bands made $10,000 off an album, without it even selling many copies, and it was pure profit as we recorded it ourselves.


I know, but you said that was over 2 years, and dont get me wrong, thats not pocket change, but its not a huge amount of money (4 member band = 1250each per year). 

I found this by accident, seems quite topical for this thread:
http://www.punknews.org/article/25898 (http://www.punknews.org/article/25898)

If you dont want to go / read, Ill give you the main point:

"The philosophy I’ve adopted is that if you’re supporting disc sales, you’re keeping the old model around longer…the one that forces dudes like me to tour 9 mos/year if they want to make ends meet with a career in music. If you wanna really support a band, "steal" their album….help bury the label….and buy a tshirt when you show up at their show and sing every word."

So there you go.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Phaedra on 31 Dec 2007, 20:29
Re: the band shirt debate, I tend to think that culture has become so incestuous and repetitive that you can't really get away with wearing anything, or listening to anything, without someone out there thinking you're a 'tard for it. If you're going to be so self-conscious as to not wear band shirts because of what they 'say' about your tastes, wouldn't that follow for any other article of clothing you'd don? Particularly if it's at all fashionable. Heck, even thrift-store shoppers get branded as being hipsters now.

I say people should wear whatever they want to, and particularly a whole ton of band shirts because they're comfortable and practical and the bands get something back out of you spending money on them, instead of the cash only fuelling some massive fashion corporation. Or so I like to think anyways.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: GenericName on 31 Dec 2007, 23:26
Statik, I've been linked to that article about 5 times and I always forget, every single time.

I've begun to regard it like a rickroll.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Jackie Blue on 01 Jan 2008, 13:44
I know, but you said that was over 2 years, and dont get me wrong, thats not pocket change, but its not a huge amount of money (4 member band = 1250each per year).

I think you're missing the point is that it was on an insanely tiny label, we didn't tour farther than 200 miles from our hometown, we had only been together a year, and we broke up right after the album came out so we didn't tour "in support" of it.

My point is that we made a decent chunk of change off something that was barely more than a glorified homemade local CD.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: bobdaman27 on 01 Jan 2008, 15:38
I'm new here, but i think this is a good topic to start on, i personally buy most of my music from underground/secondhand record stores.
but thats just me, im cool with whatever
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Statik on 02 Jan 2008, 06:16
I know, but you said that was over 2 years, and dont get me wrong, thats not pocket change, but its not a huge amount of money (4 member band = 1250each per year).

I think you're missing the point is that it was on an insanely tiny label, we didn't tour farther than 200 miles from our hometown, we had only been together a year, and we broke up right after the album came out so we didn't tour "in support" of it.

My point is that we made a decent chunk of change off something that was barely more than a glorified homemade local CD.


Which I never discredited in any way... If the larger point is that you wouldn't be able to do that today (ie: because of filesharing and such) then I would probably agree with you.

But I am rather confused, the major point of yours I was countering was the "99% of bands dont make much, if any, money from touring."  If we are going to include every single local band ever, then I could see the number going that high, but if you consider say, only bands that have released nationally (in any way)  I would say that most of them are making their living touring.  And the younger the band is, the more work they do for less pay and the less time they get off.  Which is why you have new bands that tour for 10-12 months out of the year, and then you can look at a band like "moe." (I'm using them as an example because of the night I was working their show, we were talking with the manager about something which led to)  They tour for like 2 or 3 weeks straight, with like 1 day off.  Then they take the rest of the year off.  They have obviously made it to the point where they make enough from CD sales and limited touring where they are comfortable. 

To kind of consolidate:
Younger bands don't sell as many CDs, so they go on tour with someone who has (sold a lot of CDs) to get their name out, and make some money (but not much).  As they sell more CDs, they move from opener, to second opener, to headliner (all while making more money).
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: a pack of wolves on 02 Jan 2008, 07:09
No, most bands still don't make money touring. You're basically only describing the experiences of bands on large independent or major record labels who are gunning for the big time and have management, PR, label etc backing on this, but this is not the case for most bands. Also, the bands who are on that route frequently don't make money from gigs since pay to play has become more and more prevalent, so getting that 'second opener' slot often means the band shelled out a ton of cash rather than made any.

And what's a 'local band' anyway? How do you define such a thing, and why is it always used as a term for a band that is generally positioned as being of less worth than a 'national' band (another meaningless term)?
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Hat on 02 Jan 2008, 07:19
To kind of consolidate:
Younger bands don't sell as many CDs, so they go on tour with someone who has (sold a lot of CDs) to get their name out, and make some money (but not much).  As they sell more CDs, they move from opener, to second opener, to headliner (all while making more money).

I like how this kind of makes it sound like one of the games in the Transport Tycoon series instead of a hard uncertain slog with no guarantee of reward.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Hat on 02 Jan 2008, 07:24
Oh Westinghouse, when will you invent a joy to food converter for the modern post-punk band?
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: a pack of wolves on 02 Jan 2008, 07:28
Except the joy of music!

Which sadly doesn't put food on the table.

It does if you use it to distract stall-holders while your street urchin accomplices pilfer their goods.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Statik on 02 Jan 2008, 07:39
No, most bands still don't make money touring. You're basically only describing the experiences of bands on large independent or major record labels who are gunning for the big time and have management, PR, label etc backing on this, but this is not the case for most bands. Also, the bands who are on that route frequently don't make money from gigs since pay to play has become more and more prevalent, so getting that 'second opener' slot often means the band shelled out a ton of cash rather than made any.

And what's a 'local band' anyway? How do you define such a thing, and why is it always used as a term for a band that is generally positioned as being of less worth than a 'national' band (another meaningless term)?

Yes, I know its not the case for "most" bands, hence why I specified it down to national acts.  If someone felt you are good enough to get a record deal, then you are hopefully at the point where you are making a living making music.

Also, because a "local" band is of LITERAL less worth.  (Any number of local clubs can pay LESS money to get a local unsigned act over a big name national act.  Less inherant worth/value.)  And the term "local band" holds quite a bit of meaning IMO.  The local bands where you live are not the local bands where I live.  They are "local" to a region... get it?  Hardly meaningless terms.  Quite adequate terms actually.  

And a friend who is in a local band makes a decent bit of money playing shows only in the general area.  However, they also do a cover band on the side, and actually make more money doing that than playing their original music.  I'd be curious to know what national tours have had pay to play opener acts.  Because while pay to play for smaller acts makes sense for something like: Milwaukee Metalfest (which the smaller acts do pay to play), it wouldn't make sense in a touring format.

What no one seems to get is that, many of you seem to be describing this world where NO ONE MAKES MONEY OFF OF MUSIC EXCEPT LABELS.  Bands don't make money off of CDs, and unless you are superstar act, they either Pay to Play, barely make enough to make it to the next show, or lose money touring.  I KNOW this isnt true, from TALKING WITH BANDS IVE WORKED WITH.  If there was no money in music, we would see a lot less shitty acts* out there.  There is obviously money to be made, do artists and bands miss out on a lot of it that is made off of their talent?  Sure.  Maybe.  Did they read the contract they signed?  

*Edit: A lot less shitty DERIVATIVE acts...
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Jackie Blue on 02 Jan 2008, 08:09
If someone felt you are good enough to get a record deal, then you are hopefully at the point where you are making a living making music.

This is hilariously untrue, unless you're still only talking about the absolute 1% upper echeclon of bands, or by "making a living" you mean "living in a communal house with 12 other people and subsisting on bread you dumpstered from Panera and handrolled cigarettes".
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: valley_parade on 02 Jan 2008, 09:31
Nothing wrong with stealing from Panera, that's good stuff.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: FUBAR on 02 Jan 2008, 09:42
Last CD I actually purchased from a store was De La Soul's Art Official Intelligence: Mosaic Thump and that was in 2000.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: a pack of wolves on 02 Jan 2008, 11:04
Yes, I know its not the case for "most" bands, hence why I specified it down to national acts.  If someone felt you are good enough to get a record deal, then you are hopefully at the point where you are making a living making music.

Also, because a "local" band is of LITERAL less worth.  (Any number of local clubs can pay LESS money to get a local unsigned act over a big name national act.  Less inherant worth/value.)  And the term "local band" holds quite a bit of meaning IMO.  The local bands where you live are not the local bands where I live.  They are "local" to a region... get it?  Hardly meaningless terms.  Quite adequate terms actually. 

And a friend who is in a local band makes a decent bit of money playing shows only in the general area.  However, they also do a cover band on the side, and actually make more money doing that than playing their original music.  I'd be curious to know what national tours have had pay to play opener acts.  Because while pay to play for smaller acts makes sense for something like: Milwaukee Metalfest (which the smaller acts do pay to play), it wouldn't make sense in a touring format.

What no one seems to get is that, many of you seem to be describing this world where NO ONE MAKES MONEY OFF OF MUSIC EXCEPT LABELS.  Bands don't make money off of CDs, and unless you are superstar act, they either Pay to Play, barely make enough to make it to the next show, or lose money touring.  I KNOW this isnt true, from TALKING WITH BANDS IVE WORKED WITH.  If there was no money in music, we would see a lot less shitty acts* out there.  There is obviously money to be made, do artists and bands miss out on a lot of it that is made off of their talent?  Sure.  Maybe.  Did they read the contract they signed? 

*Edit: A lot less shitty DERIVATIVE acts...


I'm from Leeds. The Kaiser Chiefs and Humanfly are both local to this area. Both have released records and toured internationally. However, the things you talk about are only applicable to the Kaiser Chiefs, not Humanfly. As I said, the terms have no meaning since almost all bands are local to somewhere (with the odd exception such as The Oath). There are bands who almost never play outside this locality who generally get a decent sum when they do a gig and many others who lose money touring. Technically, my band fulfill your criteria for a national act. We've got a release out and we've toured this nation, but we couldn't be much further away from the world of music you're talking about if we tried.

Examples of national tours with pay to play openers... hmm, you've got me there. A few spring to mind but I wouldn't want to say since I'm not 100% sure and pay to play is such an unpleasant practice that I wouldn't want to accuse somebody of it unless I knew for definite.

zerodrone's right about the record deal thing. Most of the musicians I know have had a release out on one label or another but I don't know any that make a living from their bands. If you asked many of them if they wanted to they'd decline, it's not why they do it.

I don't think anyone was suggesting that nobody makes a living out of music except for the labels, but it is a rare thing. The thing I'm disputing about your description of things is that it only works for a certain kind of band following a certain career path. Plenty of bands who I call successful would spit on the idea of even having a career path. There's a lot of diversity out there, and a lot of broke as fuck bands sleeping on people's floors and rattling around the world in battered old vans.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Jackie Blue on 02 Jan 2008, 11:38
Nothing wrong with stealing from Panera, that's good stuff.

Indeed.  I was quite literally speaking from experience.   :-)
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Statik on 02 Jan 2008, 11:46
If someone felt you are good enough to get a record deal, then you are hopefully at the point where you are making a living making music.

This is hilariously untrue, unless you're still only talking about the absolute 1% upper echeclon of bands, or by "making a living" you mean "living in a communal house with 12 other people and subsisting on bread you dumpstered from Panera and handrolled cigarettes".


To make this simple, Im just going to convert everything to 100s, so lets say that out of every 100 bands, one of those bands has a record deal good enough to make more than a subsistence living off of.  Of those 99 other bands, how many of them are actually worthwhile to listen to?  How many are just derivative shitty music based on the current trends afflicting the music industry any given year.  During the nu-metal years, I cannot count how many TERRIBLE local metal bands were around.  Or how about the number of bands that have amazing talent, yet never actually show it during their songs?  There is a reason why only 1 out of a hundred bands ever "make it"  and yeah, out of every 99 left over, there might be 1 or 2 others who SHOULD but for whatever reason dont.  It's honestly no different from any other art form, acting, painting, photography, ANYTHING.  The few who "make it" the few who should, but dont, and the rest who shouldnt, and dont.  (I could make an argument saying there are tons of bands who never should have gotten a deal, but I'll get to that. 

I remember reading an article, probably a month or two after the original Napster got ZOMG HOOGE and the recording industry collectively shit its pants and called everyone pirates and said they were ruining music forever.  The article was a critical look at the music industry and essentially saying that they (the industry) were being a bunch of spoiled brats, and why things like Napster (and other ways to accomplish the same thing) became so popular so quickly.  His theory was that the record industry no longer makes long term investments, so to speak.  For example, the band Nirvana gets picked up.  Becomes huge success essentially overnight.  What is the industries response?  Sign HUNDREDS of bands that sound like Nirvana.  So what that 90% of them suck, the companies wanna make money, and they want to make money NOW.  No one is signing the next Eric Clapton, the next Bruce Springsteen, no one is signing bands with potential, only bands with immediate multi-platinum potential.  Essentially saying that the music industry is shooting itself in the foot, the RIAA and such complain about lost revenues, but dont sign bands with ANY long term potential.  How many bands from the late 90s are still around?  How many bands from the grunge era?  80s bands?  There are always exceptions to this rule (Pearl Jam is a notable one), but for the most part it holds true. 

So there is a million cookie cutter bands out there... and theres a lot of creative, original, and interesting bands that wont get a good deal, if they get a deal at all, because they arent what the fickle american population is attracted to at that particular moment.

What Im getting at is, its art, art doesn't always make a lot of money, some people get lucky and do, some don't.  Some make shit and people act like its gold.  And some make gold and for whatever reason they get ignored.  Its life, it sucks.

I'm from Leeds. The Kaiser Chiefs and Humanfly are both local to this area. Both have released records and toured internationally. However, the things you talk about are only applicable to the Kaiser Chiefs, not Humanfly. As I said, the terms have no meaning since almost all bands are local to somewhere (with the odd exception such as The Oath). There are bands who almost never play outside this locality who generally get a decent sum when they do a gig and many others who lose money touring. Technically, my band fulfill your criteria for a national act. We've got a release out and we've toured this nation, but we couldn't be much further away from the world of music you're talking about if we tried.

Examples of national tours with pay to play openers... hmm, you've got me there. A few spring to mind but I wouldn't want to say since I'm not 100% sure and pay to play is such an unpleasant practice that I wouldn't want to accuse somebody of it unless I knew for definite.

zerodrone's right about the record deal thing. Most of the musicians I know have had a release out on one label or another but I don't know any that make a living from their bands. If you asked many of them if they wanted to they'd decline, it's not why they do it.

I don't think anyone was suggesting that nobody makes a living out of music except for the labels, but it is a rare thing. The thing I'm disputing about your description of things is that it only works for a certain kind of band following a certain career path. Plenty of bands who I call successful would spit on the idea of even having a career path. There's a lot of diversity out there, and a lot of broke as fuck bands sleeping on people's floors and rattling around the world in battered old vans.

I did over simplify my description of the difference between a "local" and "national" act.  And as I dont know the bands you referenced, by my thought as to what a local or national act is, both bands, by virtue of having a national release, and touring nationally (or internationally) would not (by my simplified defintion) be "local."  Yes, you may play far more local shows, hell, even GWAR plays more shows in the Baltimore - DC metro area.  I just saw Clutch do their annual new years show in baltimore.  I think most people would understand the difference if I said I was going out to a local show, compared to going to see band X or whatever.  It may not be a clear cut line in the dirt distinguishing the two, but I would still say the "labels" fit.
But by your definition, should I call Clutch a local act?  What about Dying Fetus?  They are both from the Baltimore / DC Metro area.  Yet theyve both been touring nationally and internationally for well over a decade.  They both have multiple national and international album releases.

I've loaded out plenty of smaller bands into vans, rental trucks, etc.  I know its common, and I know openers dont make a lot, if any money, Ive never said that wasnt the case, ever.

and I lost my train of thought...

A side note: What the hell did Panera bread USED to be called?  Before the name changed to Panera bread?  Does anyone remember?
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Jackie Blue on 02 Jan 2008, 11:56
So there is a million cookie cutter bands out there... and theres a lot of creative, original, and interesting bands that wont get a good deal, if they get a deal at all, because they arent what the fickle american population is attracted to at that particular moment.

OK, I don't know what in the Christ you're talking about now.  Just for clarity, are you aware that there are things called "independant record labels" and that having a "record deal" on an "independant record label" in no way implies that you'll be "making a living" off your music?

Because that's what you said.  You said "If you can get a record deal, you can make a living off music."

The fact that most bands on indie labels still have day jobs disproves that statement.

I'm not even arguing with you, here.  You're just actually wrong.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Statik on 02 Jan 2008, 12:25
So there is a million cookie cutter bands out there... and theres a lot of creative, original, and interesting bands that wont get a good deal, if they get a deal at all, because they arent what the fickle american population is attracted to at that particular moment.

OK, I don't know what in the Christ you're talking about now.  Just for clarity, are you aware that there are things called "independant record labels" and that having a "record deal" on an "independant record label" in no way implies that you'll be "making a living" off your music?

Because that's what you said.  You said "If you can get a record deal, you can make a living off music."

The fact that most bands on indie labels still have day jobs disproves that statement.

I'm not even arguing with you, here.  You're just actually wrong.


Um, actually its NOT what I said (and you actually QUOTED THE LINE BEFORE), and yes I am aware of independant record labels, just as I am aware that a HUGE amount of the metal bands I listen to from Scandinavia and Finland and Iceland and Russia and wherever the fuck else still have day jobs.

You are telling me that, unless you are some superstar musician / band, you arent making money playing music, alternatively, cannot make a LIVING playing music.  I PERSONALLY  know people who are making a living playing music, playing ORIGINAL music, with NO record deal.  I've had friends who HAVE had a record deal and could barely afford food every night because they were busy blowing their money on pot and beer every day. 

I'm simply saying:  Making music is not a GUARANTEED losing proposition (Even today, with people downloading music) and touring is not a GUARANTEED losing proposition, even for "smaller" or "local" acts.

This is seemingly inches away from falling into the same stupid argument I would have with artist (painter / photographer / sculptor ) friends.  Where it got to this point where if you were actually SUCCESSFUL with your art, you were somehow less of an artist.  That if you could actually make a living doing something that you enjoyed doing, such as painting, that your work was somehow devalued by being put in a major gallery, or sold for profit. 

There are musicians with day jobs who dont make a living playing music.  There are ones who do.  And your record contract, national (or international) standing would HOPEFULLY affect that, but it isn't always the case.  Thats it.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Jackie Blue on 02 Jan 2008, 12:53
You are telling me that, unless you are some superstar musician / band, you arent making money playing music, alternatively, cannot make a LIVING playing music.

Um, no, I never said that.  Lurk more.  Learn to keep in mind who has posted what instead of replying to me in response to things that other people have implied (which you've done at least twice now).

I know people who make a living from music, too.  Most of them lose money or break even on touring, though.  That's about the only thing I ever originally said, was a refutation of the often-quoted and very-wrong urban legend that bands "make money from touring".
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Statik on 02 Jan 2008, 13:14
You are telling me that, unless you are some superstar musician / band, you arent making money playing music, alternatively, cannot make a LIVING playing music.

Um, no, I never said that.  Lurk more.  Learn to keep in mind who has posted what instead of replying to me in response to things that other people have implied (which you've done at least twice now).

I know people who make a living from music, too.  Most of them lose money or break even on touring, though.  That's about the only thing I ever originally said, was a refutation of the often-quoted and very-wrong urban legend that bands "make money from touring".


So then how do they make money?  Local shows?  Independant record sales?

I'll try and keep in mind that Im not allowed to have an opinion or personal experience until I have a thousand posts.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Jackie Blue on 02 Jan 2008, 13:43
So then how do they make money?  Local shows?  Independant record sales?

Yes.

Quote
I'll try and keep in mind that Im not allowed to have an opinion or personal experience until I have a thousand posts.

No, just keep in mind that you should not put words in my mouth.  I'm not one of the people in this thread who has said that musicians can't make a living off music.  In two separate posts you argued with me about things I never even said or implied, but that OTHER people did say or imply.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Johnny C on 02 Jan 2008, 13:47
He has a point though.

I'm entitled to nine separate opinions on any given topic.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Jackie Blue on 02 Jan 2008, 13:51
And, yet, all nine of them are always WRONG.

 :-)
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Hat on 02 Jan 2008, 18:02
This is hilariously untrue, unless you're still only talking about the absolute 1% upper echeclon of bands, or by "making a living" you mean "living in a communal house with 12 other people and subsisting on bread you dumpstered from Panera and handrolled cigarettes".

I've been living off music for years! And I don't even play an instrument!

So punk
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Ryder on 02 Jan 2008, 20:34
The sad truth is that unless you're, like, the Decemberists or someone huge, you're money is made from shows. And to make money from shows, you need at least a *little* bit of fame, so you tour, and play crappy gigs for the sole purpose of getting out there into the public eye. If you know a successful band that started off making the same amount of money as they do now, I can promise you it's because it's full of "daddy bought me a Vespa" people buying their way into it. Either that or it's a boy band or something.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Hat on 02 Jan 2008, 20:55
The sad truth is that unless you're, like, the Decemberists or someone huge, you're money is made from shows.

I don't understand how this is such widely accepted truth when so many bands not only fail to make money off a tour, but fail to make any money at all! Good bands, with songs I enjoy!
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Jackie Blue on 02 Jan 2008, 21:02
The sad truth is that unless you're, like, the Decemberists or someone huge, you're money is made from shows.

No.

If you're a big enough band to make money from shows, you are also making money from CD sales.

Like hat said, there are many very good bands, on labels, who break even AT BEST on tours.

Seriously, how many people in here are musicians?  Who have toured?  Do you have any fucking clue how little money you make playing shows and how much money you spend on touring?!

The tour my band just did made approximately $100.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Ryder on 02 Jan 2008, 21:07
Because it takes crap to sell anything to most people.  :-(

It's sorta like you need to find smart people through touring, and build yourself a fanbase. With enough people like you, who enjoy their music, there we have support for the artists so that that can make money. It's hard, yes! But it's just something you have to go through if you're an unrecognised genius.  :-P

Coalition of Artists and Stake Holders, yo.

Edit: Well duh you make money from cd sales then. That money goes somewhere, right?

You tour when you're early in your career to spread the word, you HOPE to break even, when you get bigger, you make more and more money.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Hat on 02 Jan 2008, 21:12
It's sorta like you need to find smart people through touring

For what purpose?
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Ryder on 02 Jan 2008, 21:16
So that you have someone to support the music.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Hat on 02 Jan 2008, 21:24
And you define smart as anyone who appreciates and wants to support the music, right?

Oh ho ho ho I see the clever little scam you have running there.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Ryder on 02 Jan 2008, 21:26
Smart as in someone who isn't the teenage girl living next door to you torrenting the newest Black Eyed Peas album.

Y'know, pretty much anyone who's actually in the music scene.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Hat on 02 Jan 2008, 21:34
I just don't see how you are in any way arguing that artists make money through their shows. I wrote a massive diatribe about how for most bands the entire purpose of touring anywhere is solely promotion, and how a lot of the time they use merch sales as a way of simply breaking even, and that is a satisfactory result because they broke even and got their name out there, except then I realized thats what you were saying anyway, despite your original protest to the contrary.

So maybe you should take a step back, a few deep breaths and figure out just what it is that you're trying to say here.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Ryder on 02 Jan 2008, 21:51
I'm not sure what you mean, actually...

Album sales aren't everything. If you get big enough to make a few grand touring to support yourself, that's the real goal. Not many people sit back and wait for the money to come rolling in from album sales. But really, if you're big enough, not that much of it goes to you. it's not like record companies take everything, but you can't rely on cds.

Y'know, I don't see why we're at ends about this. You make a valid point as well, but it's always different depending on who you are.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: a pack of wolves on 03 Jan 2008, 04:48
for most bands the entire purpose of touring anywhere is solely promotion

Is this really how non-DIY bands see things? That's a genuine question, my experience is largely limited to the DIY side of things, with a certain amount of observation and anecdotal evidence from people I've met who work in the industry in one way or another. I just find this way of looking at things bizarre. I make music in order to make music, I play gigs in order to play gigs, I tour in order to tour and the same goes for everyone else I've ever spoken to about it. There's no ulterior motive of building a fan base or selling t-shirts, and I'd find it a bit depressing to be watching a band for whom that was the case.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Thrillho on 03 Jan 2008, 08:18
Last I checked, you play gigs because you love playing music (as I do), and you tour so that more people can hear you playing music you enjoy so that you can have a wider audience.

It's a twofer, not either.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: costacide on 03 Jan 2008, 08:51
I buy music semi-regularly.  I rarely "steal", and if I do it'll be one or two songs. 

Most of the time I just borrow shit from the library and rip it onto my computer.  You'd be surprised at the haul I've gotten from the library.  Gang Of Four, The Replacements, Le Tigre...good stuff.

And when I say I by music, I mean albums.  CD albums.  Not vinyl.  I have one piece of vinyl exactly, a Papermoons 7-inch I got for free. 
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: valley_parade on 03 Jan 2008, 09:00
The only good stuff I've found at libraries around here is a Django Reinhardt collection.

GET ON IT, WESTERN MASSACHUSETTS.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Thrillho on 03 Jan 2008, 09:02
I rarely "steal", and if I do it'll be one or two songs. (LESS THAN A SECOND PASSES) Most of the time I just borrow shit from the library and rip it onto my computer.

Please tell me you're being ironic.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: kizzie on 03 Jan 2008, 10:52
I buy music from as direct a source as is available, from the artist themselves in the case of a good number of the bands I listen to on a regular basis. 

One fellow I work with has his own thing going here in Charlotte, NC and told me flat out that he isn't going to make me pay for his stuff because I work with him.  I told him, flat out, that I will pay because I believe in supporting the artists you love most.

He still denied my money. :(
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Johnny C on 03 Jan 2008, 11:05
We musicians are stubborn bastards.

My bandmates all have separate projects and constantly offer to put each other on guest-lists, and everyone always refuses it. It's kind of funny.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Hat on 03 Jan 2008, 11:12
Is this really how non-DIY bands see things? That's a genuine question, my experience is largely limited to the DIY side of things, with a certain amount of observation and anecdotal evidence from people I've met who work in the industry in one way or another. I just find this way of looking at things bizarre. I make music in order to make music, I play gigs in order to play gigs, I tour in order to tour and the same goes for everyone else I've ever spoken to about it. There's no ulterior motive of building a fan base or selling t-shirts, and I'd find it a bit depressing to be watching a band for whom that was the case.

I might have worded this poorly. I didn't mean that bands out there are just instrumental promoting robots, more so that when they play a town, they don't play a town to make money off the gig, they play the town so that word will get around about them, and a new audience is nice and refreshing to play to.

Although I've found that within the sphere of punk bands (which is the most common genre association with DIY, even though to a certain extent, most non-prolific bands have to be DIY, but lets just pretend I'm saying DIY here and you know what I'm talking about), the massive hard-on they have for touring is noticeably more erect, but most people I've talked to who have toured generally find the experience of playing to a new, fresh audience very invigorating, they just don't tour as  tirelessly as punk bands seem to do, typically.

Also it might be a lot to do with the fact that I found most "DIY" bands have a far larger emphasis on the scene and community moreso than the music specifically, but thats a whole other argument for a whole other day.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: jeph on 03 Jan 2008, 16:34
GET ON IT, WESTERN MASSACHUSETTS.

!

I didn't know you lived here! Unless you're one of my friends and I just didn't know you also posted on this board.
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: Thrillho on 04 Jan 2008, 13:08
The crux of this post really seems to be that bands make no money from touring or CD sales - so download instead!

Isn't giving a band 0.5p per CD and 0.5p per ticket a wee bit better than giving them fuck all by downloading all the time?
Title: Re: Do you buy music?
Post by: 2HourHiatus on 05 Jan 2008, 16:47
I pretty much download music, listen to it, and if I like it I'll buy it. So I have a lot of catching up to do. I truly like to have the physical album in my hands and look at the art, read the liner notes. Rarely do I buy something I've never heard unless it's from an artist I know well.