THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)
Fun Stuff => CHATTER => Topic started by: sleepingfingers on 12 Feb 2008, 18:11
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A mere two days before the pinnacle of reproductive excellence and we should not neglect the birth of the birth of evolution. Good luck today in...well, evolving.
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Yes, well, if Daniel Quinn had anything to say about it, we'll need a bit more than luck.
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Yes, well, if Daniel Quinn had anything to say about it, we'll need a bit more than luck.
Daniel Quinn falls victim to Godwin's law in only his second book.
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When is that?
Oh, and you fail at knowing the details of the law. It specifies an online debate, and the corollary states that there is an exception for when the comparison is justified (for instance, calling nazis nazis, or hitler a nazi).
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When is that?
Oh, and you fail at knowing the details of the law. It specifies an online debate, and the corollary states that there is an exception for when the comparison is justified (for instance, calling nazis nazis, or hitler a nazi).
Yes I took a liberty in the online/paper regard. In Ishmael he uses Nazi Germany as an extreme to justify a mainstream point. It is akin to saying that any government that utilizes the death penalty will devolve into a fascist government that practices genocide against its own population. In that regard he meets the requirements of the law.
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Is it that much of a stretch, though, to warrant Godwin's Law?
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Is it that much of a stretch, though, to warrant Godwin's Law?
No. I was just in a bad mood. I don't make a habit of citing or defending Godwin and this is apparently what happens after I kill a Mountain Don't or two. I don't always agree with Quinn but think he is a great writer. Man, I wish I could delete this whole post.
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Sorry, I guess...
I do agree though that some of things Quinn says are quite implausible. The whole "not giving food to starving nations thing" really isn't my cup of tea
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happy darwin day, charles darwin. you wrote 'the origin of species' almost 150 years ago and did years and years of research and pretty much proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that evolution exists yet american public schools still insist it is just a theory.
it's unfortunate you're no longer alive, but i guess you probably wouldn't want to be anyway. maybe it's for the better.
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Some American public schools. That sort of thing is decided on a state-by-state basis. There wasn't any fucking intelligent design shit in my biology class.
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Fuckin' Kansas
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Yay science.
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Unfortunately, Tom, due to the advent of domestication the likelihood of the cat evolving is getting slimmer. Opposable thumbs, you see, would confer little selective advantage for a house cat that doesn't need to provide food or shelter for itself. I would wager that most cats now die of old age, as a result of the pampering. I would wager that the future evolution of cats would be along the attracting a mate line...pretty patterns or smellier scents.
I am neither a phylogenist or a catologist though.
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I am going to celebrate by being a slightly more awesome version of my forebears.
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I am going to celebrate by being a slightly more awesome version of my forebears.
I like that.
I'm no scientist either, but have heard that civilisation means humans aren't evolving at any more. Unsuccesful traits that would have been weeded out by unforgiving Nature before reproducing can now be supported. Even if, say, your immune system is busted, medical science can help you live a life. I would think the same would apply to our pets, unless we think it would be good to breed them for thumbs.
happy darwin day, charles darwin. you wrote 'the origin of species' almost 150 years ago and did years and years of research and pretty much proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that evolution exists yet american public schools still insist it is just a theory.
it's unfortunate you're no longer alive, but i guess you probably wouldn't want to be anyway. maybe it's for the better.
It's pretty disingenuous, that. A theory in science is different from saying "Well, that's my theory." That's a hypothesis.
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I am going to celebrate by continuing to be the absolute pinnacle of human evolution.
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yeah, my comment about evolution being taught as a theory in the united states was kind of overgeneralizing. i apologize for that. the last few days i feel like i've read hundreds of articles about "bringing the bible back into school!" and though that applies only to some states it's still had me sort of riled up and preoccupied.
i disagree about how humans aren't evolving anymore though. there's been a lot of progress made in being able to test for whether or not individuals carry genes that determine certain genetic diseases (cystic fibrosis and huntington's disease are two major ones) and this has a huge impact on whether or not those individuals choose to biologically have children. women also have the option of aborting their pregnancies if their children are shown to have severe metal impairments.
one argument against this is that this sort of genetic testing could potentially be a bad thing because we are killing future generations before they are even born but i don't really understand. any reason to not have kids is pretty valid, and not the same thing as murder at all. by that logic you are killing millions for every second you spend not fucking and trying to get someone pregnant.
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I'm no scientist either, but have heard that civilisation means humans aren't evolving at any more. Unsuccesful traits that would have been weeded out by unforgiving Nature before reproducing can now be supported.
It is true that the normal things that would be weeded out are able to survive thanks to technological crutches. Hell, I am damn sure glad that glasses and contacts are available.
There is an upside to greater genetic diversity. It makes our species less vulnerable to a mass disease that could wipe us out. For instance, the bubonic plague loves iron. Back in the medieval times, people with lots of iron in their blood were thriving. Then boom, the plague ruined their shit.
Over specialization does have risks as well.
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I know the odds are against both species surviving to see this evolutionary breakthrough but it would be pretty amazing to see how the human-domesticated cat relationship would change if they developed opposable thumbs, as has been suggested by some felinologists.
Some Polydactyl cats seem to hint at such a future -
[pic]paw![/pic]
Polydactylism in humans is a dominant characteristic. Anyone who wasn't born with more than ten fingers is very very recessive.
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Humanity has not stopped evolving. Humanity simply now has some degree of control over its evolution.
Evolution /= constant 'improvement'. That's a false paradigm. There is no such thing as 'devolution' either. All that is implied is change.
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I would wager that the future evolution of cats would be along the attracting a mate line...pretty patterns or smellier scents.
What about being smart enough not to get your balls chopped off by a vet?
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i've read arguments about how humans will probably evolve in the far future to have more than 10 fingers because of the fact that polydactylism is a dominant gene but in all honestly i find this extremely unlikely simply because of how incredibly completely rare it is. there's lots of comparisons - blonde hair and blue or green eyes are recessive traits while brown eyes and brown hair are dominant, yet people with blonde hair and blue or green eyes are still everywhere because it's just an extremely common gene regardless. but maybe time will tell on this, so who knows?
i don't remember if it's dawkins' 'the selfish gene' that discusses this but i recall reading this really interesting piece of writing about how most animal and bird species that are completely dependent on their parents when young inevitably evolve different mechanisms that allow the parent and child to sort of communicate with each other. like, how when a baby bird chirps the parent has to somehow understand that this means the baby bird is hungry and vice versa. in humans, what very likely has happened is that people have somehow evolved to think little kids are cute. they aren't really, it's completely subjective. people just think they're cute. as a result people who think babies are cute are more likely to want to have kids and pay attention to kids and then they'll have kids who like kids and the whole thing is just a big circle. this makes me extremely happy because it is such an elegant and perfect solution for me to the people who claim women who don't have children are selfish. i don't want or like kids, therefore i'm the exact type of person who shouldn't have kids. hooray!
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Cam and Khar are dead on. Genetic diversity is one of humanity's greatest form of evolution. Given any conditions, there's probably a group of humans out there that can survive it. There are people who are immune to AIDS. There are people immune to different forms of cancer. There's a dude in Vietnam who hasn't slept in three decades and is perfectly healthy.
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Eph: actually, I think polydactylism will be "bred out", so to speak, because people get grossed or weirded out by it to the point that I could see it being a deal-breaker for relationships.
Then again, it might not, because everyone I know who is polydactyl had the extra digits removed at birth and I would not have know had they not told me.
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People get grossed out easy if that's the case. One of my exes only had one joint on one thumb. I didn't even notice for a couple of weeks.
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Which joint? The ball joint at the hand or the was she unable to bend her thumb? Playing around with my hand, I really can't decide which would be more of a pain in the ass.
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I'd imagine any type of thumb would be a real pain in the ass if you stuck it right up there.
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Don't be silly, Tommy. Obviously you aren't using enough lube.
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Which joint? The ball joint at the hand or the was she unable to bend her thumb? Playing around with my hand, I really can't decide which would be more of a pain in the ass.
Essentially her thumb ended at the knuckle. This was a birth defect, not the result of an accident, so she still had a fingernail.
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by that logic you are killing millions for every second you spend not fucking
Who said you could use my chat-up line?
"By not having sex with me right now, you're killing our children, and their children, and all our descendants for centuries to come! Won't somebody think of the children?"
yeah, my comment about evolution being taught as a theory in the united states was kind of overgeneralizing. i apologize for that.
I apologise if it seemed I was attacking you. I've heard of those want to "bring the bible back into school" saying "evolution is only a theory" and that was what I disagreed with. Evolution is a Theory in the same way the Theory of Gravity is a theory. It's been hypothosised, tested on what we know, and even seen in action (take antibiotic-resistant bacteria and the peppered moth.)
Eph: actually, I think polydactylism will be "bred out", so to speak, because people get grossed or weirded out by it to the point that I could see it being a deal-breaker for relationships.
Then again, it might not, because everyone I know who is polydactyl had the extra digits removed at birth and I would not have know had they not told me.
That's kind of what I was getting at. The genes would continue. The effects are fixed later.
I agree that diversity is necessary. For instance, sickle cell anemia (looked it up) can cause organ damage and strokes and shortens your life expectantcy but carries immunity to malaria.
Cam and Khar are dead on. Genetic diversity is one of humanity's greatest form of evolution. Given any conditions, there's probably a group of humans out there that can survive it. There are people who are immune to AIDS. There are people immune to different forms of cancer. There's a dude in Vietnam who hasn't slept in three decades and is perfectly healthy.
Wow, I read some of Lawrence Block's Evan Tanner novels, but always thought it couldn't really happen. I remember there was a radio DJ in America who didn't sleep for two weeks for charity and suffered personality-altering mental damage from it. Do you have a link for that story?
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Humanity has not stopped evolving. Humanity simply now has some degree of control over its evolution.
I doubt this what Khar was pointing at, but Transhumanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism) people.
This counts as evolution. Evolution is only gonna speed up and become fucking awesome.
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people have somehow evolved to think little kids are cute. they aren't really, it's completely subjective.
Every Tania post is another glimpse into her childhood.
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That's certainly a point for the future. But at present, the most important factor is the amount of control humans have over their environment. "Survival of the fittest" is another one of those misunderstood little phrases. It doesn't refer to being buff or brainy or anything, but rather your suitedness to survive in a given environment. Being highly myopic doesn't make me unfit for survival at all, because I live in an environment which includes opticians, spectacles, contact lenses and laser surgery.
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Transhumanism is the most horrific thing I could ever imagine.
The people who will adopt first and dominate it? They will be /b/.
(I want to write a novel about this.)
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The politics of transhumanism are worrying. I can't escape the conclusion that transhumanism could easily lead to the re-introduction of aristocracy, in its proper meaning of 'rule by the best'. Simply, when transhumanist technologies first start being introduced, they are likely to be very, very expensive. Thus they will probably be adopted mainly by rich people, and their offspring. Being transhuman, naturally, makes you pretty much more suited to skilled, high paying jobs. Transhumans would dominate fields like medicine, business, politics, professional sport, etc. It would also concievably lead to a surge in the growth of military forces, as the military is about the only blue collar occupation where transhuman technology would be necessary and economically viable. Soldiers would literally have to be transhuman. Maybe law enforcement officials as well, which is perhaps even more scary. The only way I can definitely imagine this not happening is if serious breakthroughs are made in nanotechnology, as self-replicating nanotechnology would essentially be free. Of course, self-replicating nanotech is scary as fuck for a whole host of other reasons, but hey...
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The Venn diagram of my reservations about both transhumanism and genetic engineering/screening basically looks like a circle. Also they are basically everything Khar described.
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There's a dude in Vietnam who hasn't slept in three decades and is perfectly healthy.
:-o
:?
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We are reading Darwin in class at this moment. Anyone interested in the history of science who doesn't mind Victorian prose should do likewise. I think I like him for the same reason I liked Adam Smith and David Hume--he seems so genial and fair-minded. He even made me expand my category of 'genial scottish thinkers' to 'genial Brittish thinkers.'
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The people who will adopt first and dominate it? They will be /b/.
I am honestly more scared of this than I am of a rise of a new aristocracy.
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My cat really likes 52-Card Pick Up. Does that count?
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you could always just breed cats via artificial selection instead of waiting for them to evolve on their own. in fact, i'm pretty sure that's how most domesticated animals came to exist in the first place.
obviously the reason no one has attempted the cat poker thing yet is because cats with opposable thumbs are kind of freaky.
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Dogs can play poker, and yet they don't have opposable thumbs. Food for thought.
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Foolish hew-mon! Picture is not reality!
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obviously the reason no one has attempted the cat poker thing yet is because cats with opposable thumbs are kind of freaky.
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t269/kdbradle/raygarfield.jpg)
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/branston_pickle/Photo6.jpg)
"I have called this principle, by which each slight variation, if useful, is preserved, by the term Natural Selection."
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The people who will adopt first and dominate it? They will be /b/.
I am honestly more scared of this than I am of a rise of a new aristocracy.
Just kill them before they can get the avoiding death thing down. Use more than enough gun, I recommend something in the 66mm range (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M72_LAW), if they have gotten the robotic enhancement things. Might want to look into handheld EMPs, as well as that shotgun taser in the other thread.
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I think he's suggesting less of a Frankenstein scenario and more of a Gattaca, where it gradually becomes the societal norm.
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Possible upsides to transhumanism:
(http://cache.kotaku.com/assets/resources/2007/06/Deusex-top.jpg)
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A cyberpunk world? That isn't exactly the kind of place you want to be stuck in, just where you want to visit.
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Possible downsides:
(http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/9012/deusex2fb0.jpg)
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A cyberpunk world? That isn't exactly the kind of place you want to be stuck in, just where you want to visit.
That largely depends on whether you're some sort of leather-jacketed, cyborg-limbed, brain-wired console jockey cum swordsman, or whether you're not.
Johnny: stop pissing on my dreams.
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Yeah, let me have my turn.
I actually haven't played either of those games, just the invisible war demo. I would have played the original ones demo, but... either it didn't have one, or it didn't run right, I guess too far backwards to be compatible, though I can run Unreal, UT, doom, and quake just fine, albeit doom and quake need something to change them to openGL, I think. I also had trouble with getting the SS2 demo to work.
I'm a duster-jacketed, skinnily-limbed, intact-skulled computer nerd that doesn't make a habit of trying to make a sword out of cum, so I guess not.
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OH LOL YOU MADE A PUNE.
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I thought you were serious about the cum swordsman bit, I never heard that reference. Seems like a really stupid, macho thing to do.
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...what?
Do you not know how to read english that isn't cheap porn fiction?
http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2003/08/10.html (http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2003/08/10.html)
"cum \KUM; KUHM\, preposition:
With; along with; combined with; -- often used in combination."
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Oh, okay. wasn't thinking of it in that sense, only time I have heard that was in reference to graduating college and... some video game review, making fun of how some character was able to do just about everything like someone specialized in that field. We don't use that term over here all that often.
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Where's over here, a place where people cannot read?
And also consume a lot of porn?
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A place where people don't have a "u" fetish. Colour, Armour, both wastes of "u"s, I could think of more, but it is late, at least for me.
I would guess people read and watch a lot of porn, but unless they have a specific fetish, I don't think they would consume it. I don't really ask people about their pornography habits. And hang on... what cyberpunk are you thinking of that has swordfights? I haven't read much, all of it gibson, but I don't recall the use of swords, aside from in Dystopia.
Is Khar's use of cum a common term in the UK? I have not heard anyone use that term that was over there.
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Snow Crash is, I think, the source of the cyberpunk swordsman thing.
And both British people and American people use "cum" in that way, but it's just generally lesser-known and lesser-used nowadays, especially with our email inboxes having long been used to the use of the word in another sense.
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Yeah um... I have used it in everyday conversation before? In its proper context?
Go me?
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Go you!
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There's normally a hyphen involved, isn't there? "_____-cum-______"?
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Yeah, that's the other thing that made it ambiguous.
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no, when there are hyphens involved, it means x-turned into-y, whereas x cum y means x with y.
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Hurrah for people who can read and write.
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Wow, I stand corrected. I didn't even know that there was a rule about it.
(http://blogsap.files.wordpress.com/2006/10/nbc_the_more_you_know.jpg)
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Hurrah for people who can read and write.
I, too, like the Internet as a medium of communication.
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I'm going to get 10,000 posts before you you bastard.
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Survival of the fittest, my friend. Survival of the fittest.
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bastard.
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Wow it was literally just 30 seconds ago that I wondered if a post-count war between you two was going to happen anytime soon. I'm pretty proud of that, in fact. I wish there was a good reason to be.
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I'm actually terrified of my postcount spiking dramatically next week. I won't have anything else to do.
God help you all when the semester ends, that's all I'm saying.
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well you drove him to doing what I usually do, I applaud you sir
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It's fucking ON!
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so at this point you are taking any sort of victory you can get?
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Johnny cheated. I was depressed and didn't post much for a month. He took advantage of that, like the dickfish he is.
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Don't hate the player, hate the game
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Khar, can you do me a favour and make at least half of your posts in the next week when you are intoxicated in some way? Please?
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We don't use that term over here all that often.
There are a great many terms that aren't used often that I know the meaning of. For example, I knew perfectly well what khar meant, even though I've never said that myself. Honestly dude, we would have a lot more respect for your conversational skills if you simply admitted to mistakes rather than get defensive and try to justify mistakes through strained arguments.
For example, your post would have been much better if you simply left off the rationalizing last line:
Oh, okay. wasn't thinking of it in that sense, only time I have heard that was in reference to graduating college and... some video game review, making fun of how some character was able to do just about everything like someone specialized in that field. We don't use that term over here all that often.
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I have no intention of achieving victory in this war. I am rather relieved actually that there are at least two people with a higher postcount than me.
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We don't use that term over here all that often.
There are a great many terms that aren't used often that I know the meaning of. For example, I knew perfectly well what khar meant, even though I've never said that myself. Honestly dude, we would have a lot more respect for your conversational skills if you simply admitted to mistakes rather than get defensive and try to justify mistakes through strained arguments.
For example, your post would have been much better if you simply left off the rationalizing last line:
Oh, okay. wasn't thinking of it in that sense, only time I have heard that was in reference to graduating college and... some video game review, making fun of how some character was able to do just about everything like someone specialized in that field. We don't use that term over here all that often.
I suppose I do have a tendency to get very defensive, usually I have to leave a conversation for a couple days to be willing to admit I was wrong (see: zombie thread). Still, I would say that khar was being an asshole about not having that meaning of the word in my common-use mental dictionary. But, what else is new, right?
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Seriously, I have actually plotted this scenario in my head and it makes for an awesome sci-fi novel that I need to sit my ass down and write.
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There's a dude in Vietnam who hasn't slept in three decades and is perfectly healthy.
:-o
:?
http://www.thanhniennews.com/features/?catid=10&newsid=12673
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Is that even possible? What with sleep being important for the subconscious and all that jazz...
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I can't believe I missed the Darwin Day thread. I can't believe how many people on here do not understand the general science of evolution. I can't believe they still allow places like Kansas (and PA) to run school systems.
The other day when purchasing a general biocultural evolution book with an homo erectus skull on the cover, I was given a dirty look and a semi-hushed tsk-tsk by the cashier. I'm a grad student in anthropology and have been told I'll be dealing with this issue for the rest of my life as fundamentalists grow. You'd think part of our schooling would be to learn how to deal with these people.
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Hooray for anthropology! I am studying it as well though I am still an undergrad, so I've got a long way to go.
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I took a class called Human Evolution and Prehistory last year, and it was an absolutely excellent class. I almost considered switching my major to anthropology with a concentration in Archeology, but I really don't think this is the right school for it, and I really don't want to transfer out into New Mexico or study classical archeology.
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Is that even possible? What with sleep being important for the subconscious and all that jazz...
Sleep's a weird one. A little while ago doctors worked out that my Dad hadn't slept uninterrupted for longer than a minute at any point in about twenty years, which is close to not sleeping at all. This did have some pretty serious side effects, such as giving him a bad memory and a bad mood most of the time, but he was nevertheless still able to hold down a job in academia and personal relationships when just a few days of sleep deprivation gave the famous Mr Tripp hallucinations and crippling paranoia.
Hopefully, this means I can one day evolve beyond sleep and essentially have eight hours of cosy lying in every night, which would be awesome.
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Hooray for anthropology! I am studying it as well though I am still an undergrad, so I've got a long way to go.
Yay for Anth folks! What genre do you want to do? I'm doing sociocultural- environmental anthropology with a focus on Japan, but I absolutely adore archaeology and the fun field schools we get to do. Dirt is my friend.
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I have yet to decide, as I'm interested in all four. I would love to study the ancient Mayans, so that's archaeology. I would also love to study ancient languages, so there's your linguistics. Then there's forensic anthropology if I feel like I want to go into the biological side of it. The cultural portion is probably what interests me the least, but I culd still see myself going in that direction.
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Ancient Mayans would be fascinating to study. The bioanth/forensics would be so interesting in such a complex society as you'd be able to distinguish so many differences between status and areas in which they lived. Just the diseases that showed up with Europeans would be fun to study in the archaeological record!
Anyways, the other day we had a speaker come in to talk about the creationist issue and more or less provided us with all their scary, creepy little secrets and made it very hard to have any respect for them. I have no idea how I'm ever going to respectfully discuss the evolution/creationist debate with anyone now.
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I'm not attempting to stir up debate here, I genuinely don't understand this: How can people not understand the process of evolution, if they take the time to do at least some perfunctory research on it? And how are there people who do claim to understand who refuse to acknowledge it? It'd be like refusing to acknowledge gravity, to me. It doesn't make sense.
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I thought about (but never started) writing a satirical peice which denied the existence of the water cycle. Heresy! Water is a gift from God and that's all there is to it. Similar.
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Religion leads people to believe some crazy things. Besides, creationists (or, their new term to avoid the fact that creationism was officially removed from schools- Intelligent Design) believe that evolution not only takes away from the "truth" that is the bible, but is the cause of everything "wrong" in this society, from rampant consumerism to gay marriage. How they get to this conclusion, I don't think anyone really knows for sure.
The scary thing is that these families are literally breeding large families (or armies) and homeschooling them to believe this stuff.