THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)
Fun Stuff => CHATTER => Topic started by: Patrick on 17 Feb 2008, 14:29
-
The shit? Generations-long ethnic tensions between Kosovar Albanians and Serbs. The fan? Kosovo just declared independence from Serbia. The splatter? Serbia, backed by a few select other countries, refuses to recognize Kosovo's sovereignty (http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL17718644?rpc=92).
I'll be taking bets on who fires the first shot. Collections will occur after it happens and I've gotten the FUCK out of Albania.
-
Might open the floodgates of ethnic minorities staking out enclaves. Apparently some ethnic Hungarian ministers in Romania have started making noise. Who knows, the Kurds could even get in on the self-determination action. It's a problematic precedent.
But a number of big players (notably Russia) are against the independence. We'll have to see how it plays out. But if there is bloodshed, and there undoubtedly will be in some capacity, it probably won't be official civil war ala Milosevic so much as local score-settling and blood feuding. That shit spreads in refugee situations like an ear infection in a daycare center.
-
Goddamnit, Balkans.
-
Because we're human.
-
Someone tell me why Serbia wants Kosovo so badly. Because, reading the Wikipedia article, I can't fathom why. It'd be like if Texas left the union. Just let them go, man.
-
Religion and nationalism.
-
Those are pretty much the two worst reasons to do anything ever.
-
No argument there.
But yeah, it really is the same shit as always. Kosovo historically has been one of Serbia's richest cultural centers but is currently filled with ethnic Albanians and Muslims while Belgrade is some ridiculous percentage (90%?) Orthodox Christian. I won't pretend to understand why that's a good enough reason to go to war, but there it is.
-
Someone tell me why Serbia wants Kosovo so badly. Because, reading the Wikipedia article, I can't fathom why. It'd be like if Texas left the union. Just let them go, man.
Ok, that's a very hard question, because, you see - I'm from Croatia (ex Yugoslavia...) and even I don't understand why the Serbs didn't want to let us, or Slovenia, or FYRO Macedonia to form our own independent republics '91.
It's probably because Serbia always wanted to be ''magna serbia'' or The BIG Serbia.
I just hope that everything will go without war, cause the people here are still stressed by the war in Croatia & Bosna and Hercegovina, even though it has been 12 years since the war officially ended.
-
Yeah, I don't know what the big deal is with the whole nationalism thing, but historically promises of greatness and stability has almost always trumped tolerance and equal representation.
-
I just hope that everything will go without war
Considering the history barely 10 years ago, and considering the fact that protesters in Belgrade have grenaded UN and EU buildings (fortunately it's midnight here in the Balkans as I type this, but that won't stop some people tomorrow morning), I am none too optimistic about that.
And a friend of mine and I came to the conclusion that nationalism has never gotten anybody anything but a broken heart.
-
This is only going to end in tears.
And as to the person who mentioned kurds before, I think they should get their own country, because I met a kurdish guy once and he was the nicest guy ever. He taught me some folk songs, I think they were from iraq...
Where abouts are you now kingjongsick? Still in balkans?
-
...I am none too optimistic about that.
Well, neither am I... I'm just saying that we really don't need yet another war caused by appetite for territory, and Serbia is well-known for having that tendencies. Kosovo's separation seems to be yet another defeat for Serbia. After the separation of Croatia,Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Montenegro from Yugoslavia in two bloody wars, Serbia has lost its links with yet another Serb-populated area. if you're in the Balkans you've probably heard that famous quote ''Srbija do Tokija'' - translation :''Serbia to Tokyo'' .
-
Albania, I believe.
This is indeed correct.
-
And we have a burning desire to fuck each other over?
I don't, at least.
Some of us do, yes. But I'm on your side, to be totally honest. I wish everyone could get along. However, I have very little faith in humanity. We're good at killing one another, and at coming up with new ways to kill one another while inadvertently killing our planet.
Or should that be simultaneously? I don't know.
We're also very good at killing our planet.
-
Albania, I believe.
I misread his first post to say 'I have gotten the FUCK out of albania', seperately. Sorry for that.
-
Patrick, Run damnit, RUN!
SOmebody "explained" the whole situation in Serbia to me once, and I still don't truly understand it. As far as I can tell, the whole area has been somewhat of a mess for the last few centuries.
-
I've decided to actually video shit hitting a fan. That should show you what serbia is like, nowadays.
-
Winslow has us pegged:
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=706 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=706)
-
The fulfilling genetic imperatives line has always been one of my faves.
-
I'm glad Kosovo is independent.
That said, I'm concerned that Russia is going to follow through on what it's promised to do in retaliation: support the separatist regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia in Georgia, which is one of the few (relative) success stories of the former USSR, and could be now torn apart if that Russian support translates to arms shipments and diplomatic recognition of their independence.
Of course, that reeks of a double standard for the Russians: why are the Ossetian and Abhkaz claims for independence from Georgia tenable, but those of Chechnya and Ingushetia--Russia's own separatist enclaves--not?
And as to the person who mentioned kurds before, I think they should get their own country, because I met a kurdish guy once and he was the nicest guy ever. He taught me some folk songs, I think they were from iraq...
...Yeah, because that's a great reason to randomly make another country. They already have a de-facto state in northern Iraq. That's all they need. I'm sympathetic towards the Turks on this issue: Turkey's territorial integrity should not be questioned. They've had 30,000 of their soldiers and civlians killed in the last 30 years by Kurdish Separatist Groups.
We can't just have an independent country for every ethnic group. It's unrealistic. Kosovo deserves independence because Serbia has proven that it cannot be trusted to rule the land after its pogrom and ethnic cleansing in 1999. But while Turkey has in the past sought to stifle the Kurds' sense of self, they've never engaged in slaughter or physical repression of them, while the Kurds have been massacring Turks for decades. Sorry, but I don't think the Kurds have a case in this one.
-
Yeah, I don't know what the big deal is with the whole nationalism thing, but historically promises of greatness and stability has almost always trumped tolerance and equal representation.
Among other things, it's why Europe isn't currently being ruled by churches. Nationalism allowed secular power to subvert church power, and in doing so made it possible for, say, a catholic and a protestant to be considered equal under the law and both considered citizens, and created the pluralism we enjoy today. Before the nation state, people identified themselves by language and religion (things people still hate each other over, but arguably not as much as they used to). Nowadays region is an important part as well. It hasn't worked in places where it's been imposed (Africa, India / Pakistan, etc.) but it's worked out fine for the West, all things considered. It's still far from perfect, as these conflicts have shown, and equality is always being threatened.
Not to be too off-topic, but
But while Turkey has in the past sought to stifle the Kurds' sense of self, they've never engaged in slaughter or physical repression of them, while the Kurds have been massacring Turks for decades. Sorry, but I don't think the Kurds have a case in this one.
So you would support an Armenian state, then? Or a Kurdish state within Iraq? Do you support Israel? Your support of Turkey's "territorial integrity" wouldn't make much sense otherwise.
-
Because the Turks have shown the Kurds nothing but sweetness and light, oh the ungrateful swines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_of_Kurdish_people_in_Turkey).
The Balkans is one of those awkward places, like Ireland, Palestine and portions of Africa, where otherwise forgotten wars, and shitty decisions by long-dead cigar smoking assholes have created an almost unsolvable political clusterfuck. There are ethnic groups who really shouldn't be there, and borders where there shouldn't be. Unfortunately by now this post-imperial fallout has been allowed to fester to the point where just re-drawing the borders or re-locating certain groups is both impossible and unethical. Really the best solution would probably be a federal Yugoslavia in which each state had a degree of devolved n regional autonomy, with ethnic power-sharing built into the constitution. However, by this point, everyone pretty much hates everyone else way too much for that to be feasible, plus those ethnic power-sharing dealies never really work out (it was tried in either yugoslavia or serbia before I think. The Lebanon also has a similiar set-up, and look at the problems they have). Of course, what would really probably be the best thing for the region is if the EU and Russia could both just leave them the fuck alone, though that's hardly likely to happen.
I think the real clincher here will be what happens to the Serbian minority within Kosovo. The moment tensions flare and they start getting picked on or victimised in any way then bad, bad things will probably happen. Unfortunately, the trigger for this will probably be a minority of Serbian assholes resorting to political violence.
Le sigh.
-
Among other things, it's why Europe isn't currently being ruled by churches. Nationalism allowed secular power to subvert church power, and in doing so made it possible for, say, a catholic and a protestant to be considered equal under the law and both considered citizens, and created the pluralism we enjoy today. Before the nation state, people identified themselves by language and religion (things people still hate each other over, but arguably not as much as they used to). Nowadays region is an important part as well. It hasn't worked in places where it's been imposed (Africa, India / Pakistan, etc.) but it's worked out fine for the West, all things considered. It's still far from perfect, as these conflicts have shown, and equality is always being threatened.
Well, I meant the excesses of nationalism, really; the stuff that is borderline fascist (which is definitely something the Serbs could be accused of, with their expansionist leanings and Radical party). For example, how Napolean managed to convince his military and the French peasantry that making him emperor would be a great idea even if they had ostensibly been fighting for a republic because Napolean promised that he'd take France farther than it'd ever been. That kind of thing. I'm still just not really a big fan of nationalism; it's replaces one restrictive category that excludes people with another, slightly more inclusive category that excludes people. Conflict comes up regardless though, so I suppose all things considered it's been a net benefit, but sometimes it's hard to see that in the midst of some of the silly bullshit people end up killing eachother over.
-
Interesting how every nation with a concern over their own separatist issues does not support an independent Kosovo. China and Russia are both against it. That does not bode well for Kosovo.
-
Because the Turks have shown the Kurds nothing but sweetness and light, oh the ungrateful swines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_of_Kurdish_people_in_Turkey).
Because we all know Wikipedia is the place to go for unbiased documentation of human-rights abuses.
Not to be too off-topic, but
But while Turkey has in the past sought to stifle the Kurds' sense of self, they've never engaged in slaughter or physical repression of them, while the Kurds have been massacring Turks for decades. Sorry, but I don't think the Kurds have a case in this one.
So you would support an Armenian state, then? Or a Kurdish state within Iraq? Do you support Israel? Your support of Turkey's "territorial integrity" wouldn't make much sense otherwise.
..wait, what? I'm unsure as to what you're asking.
Anyway, back on topic--what other countries are backing Serbia on this besides China and Russia? And do we really think Russia is doing so out of 'Slavic Unity,' as its foreign minister put it a few months back, or just to spite the West?
-
Russia is backing Serbia because they have their own issues with every little cultural subset taking off and becoming their own state Chechnya, anyone?. Spain has concerns over the ETA and Basque lands. Also does not support an independent Kosovo. Taiwan does, China doesn't. See a pattern here?
The situation in Kosovo is being watched closely by people elsewhere around the world who have been seeking their own states, including the Kurds in northern Iraq and the Basques in Spain. A number of such conflicts directly involve Russia, including in Chechnya, Transdniestr, South Ossetia and Abkhazia. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10259794 (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10259794)
-
Hey Patrick, are you dead yet?
-
Boy, won't you feel awful if he actually is dead.
-
how would we find out?
-
Well, he's changed his AIM status since last night, so he was at least alive not long ago.
-
Nope, it's currently "Sup."
If he doesn't log in within the next couple days I will get worried.
-
KimJongSick has joined
KimJongSick is now dead
dead:...
-
guiz stop teh ded jokes :-(
kkthxbai
-
Alright, I'll walk through this one.
But while Turkey has in the past sought to stifle the Kurds' sense of self, they've never engaged in slaughter or physical repression of them, while the Kurds have been massacring Turks for decades. Sorry, but I don't think the Kurds have a case in this one.
So you would support an Armenian state, then?
Turkey has slaughtered and repressed the Armenians in the past. You're saying that the reason Kosovo has a right to independence is because they've been oppressed by the Serbians, and the reason the Kurds don't is because they haven't been oppressed by the Turks. Thus, that huge swath of land called "Armenia" must have a legitimate claim to break away from Turkey.
Or a Kurdish state within Iraq?
The Kurds as a minority have been oppressed by Saddam for decades in Iraq. Indeed, the best chance the Kurds have for a state is in the northern regions of Iraq (the tri-partition plan had this in mind) the problem with this is that Turkey will get all up in its shit if it goes forward, because either all their ethnic Kurds will migrate next door, or more than likely, they won't move, but will begin a push to have the Eastern regions of Turkey assimilated into the new Kurdistan.
Do you support Israel? Your support of Turkey's "territorial integrity" wouldn't make much sense otherwise.
In your earlier post you stated that Turkey doesn't deserve to be broken apart because they've been beset by separatists. Israel is in the same position.
The point is that if you really believe what you're saying you'll either stay consistent or present clear differences between these examples that allow you to come to different conclusions.
-
Armenia can't "break away" from Turkey--Armenia is already an independent nation. It's a moot point.
Israel is in no way comparable to Turkey. It's not like the Turks moved somewhere else for 2,000 years, then came back and told the Kurds "Ok, we're taking all this land back now. You no longer exist as an entity." The Palestinians were on that land for thousands of years, with little to no Jewish presence. The Turks have been living in Anatolia for centuries. They're not "occupying" Kurdish land.
Let's try to get back on topic now, shall we?
-
I'm You didn't address the Kurd situation. And like the Kurd situation, that there's an Armenian state doesn't mean that Armenians in Turkey automatically wouldn't have a legitimate claim to the annexation of land.
As for Israel, the point was (besides the fact that Turkey only existed for, what, half a century prior to the enstatement of Israel?) that Israel has been here, it's here now, and it's obviously not going to just up and leave for the Palestinians. If Turkey doesn't deserve to be partitioned because of some nebulous claim to "territorial integrity" despite oppressed minorities, Israel doesn't either.
-
(besides the fact that Turkey only existed for, what, half a century prior to the enstatement of Israel?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire)
-
Hey Patrick, are you dead yet?
You know what, Katie? Fuck you. I'm sure this may come as a surprise to you, but red-hot steel slamming into your body faster than the speed of sound is a surprisingly uncomfortable experience. I would know, I'm fucking dead.
-
OH MAN WHERE DID THAT COME FROM
-
Technically if Patrick retained complete self-awareness and rationality in his undead state he would be a revenant, not a zombie.
-
You know what Khar fuck you. You are my first victim. *INFECT*
-
FUCK NOW IT'S GOING TO SPREAD TO THE ENTIRE MUSIC FORUM
-
I am already one of the undead, fool.
-
OH SHI-
Okay zombie Pat, you want the forums, uh... six boards up.
Yeah. I hear they have some absolutely great brains up there.
-
...hm, this is the General Discussion board, are you -quite sure- I'm in the right pla-- HEY FUCK YOU DON'T DRIVE AWAY
-
I hear they have some absolutely great brains up there.
He may be a zombie, but he's not that stupid.
-
(besides the fact that Turkey only existed for, what, half a century prior to the enstatement of Israel?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire)
Shit, somebody better tell the Balkans that the Ottoman Empire was never dismantled but instead changed their name.
-
a multi-ethnic and multi-religious Turkish-ruled state. The state was known as the Turkish Empire or Turkey by its contemporaries; see the other names of the Ottoman State.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Ottoman_Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Ottoman_Empire)
# Medieval Latin: Turcia
# Medieval Latin: Imperium Turcicum
# English: Turkey (derived from Medieval Latin). Current use of Turkey refers to Republic of Turkey which succeeded the Ottoman Empire in 1923.
# English: Turkish Empire
You're argument is equivalent to saying there were no Germans a hundred years ago, or something.
-
You're argument
YOUR MOM IS ARGUMENT
-
You're a typo nazi.
-
I have pretty much decided that since there were so many during the recent "war" and the fact that I don't really care about said "war" that I will post constructive things only after I have pretended to be high or corrected people's grammar or spelling.
"You're" versus "your" is not a typo, it's a grammatical error. A typo would imply that you accidentally hit the wrong key, and would possibly be "yuor" or "youe" or even "yourt".
-
I see your mouth moving, but all I hear is "BLAH BLAH BLAH, I'M A DIRTY TRAMP."
Oh, I was telling Katie earlier that the Serbs have recalled their Ambassador in Washington DC. This doesn't look good, considering that they're being backed by Russia and China, two longstanding opponents to U.S. policy. God knows what kind of cold war (or what else) this could start.
-
Patrick I am thinking you should just leave the Balkans right now. Don't wait until summer.
-
I highly doubt a Cold War would start over the Serbians declaring independence. The current global economic marketplace makes that sort of thing extremely unlikely. The US, Russia, and China are all extremely interdependent, and cutting ties with each other would cripple all three.
-
Which is why it would make perfect sense for two of them to piss on the one. It'd cripple the U.S. while the other two would still have markets with each other.
-
Are you planning on leaving soon? I really hope this doesn't turn lamer.
-
Which is why it would make perfect sense for two of them to piss on the one. It'd cripple the U.S. while the other two would still have markets with each other.
If you think Russia is a big enough market to support China on its own in the absence of American consumption you're out of your mind. Neither China nor Russia could 'piss on' the US even if they wanted to. Russia's economy is almost wholly (some ridiculous amount like 70% at this point) dependent on oil exports, which America is responsible for the majority of, and the Russian populace isn't financially solvent enough to provide a consumer base for Chinese products like the US can. It won't happen in the current market, and do you really think China gives that much of a shit about the Balkans anyway?
-
Patrick, come to Sydney, we can hang out. For serious.
-
the Serbs have recalled their Ambassador in Washington DC. This doesn't look good, considering that they're being backed by Russia and China, two longstanding opponents to U.S. policy. God knows what kind of cold war (or what else) this could start.
I wouldn't worry too much about it at this point. It can signal big problems, but it can also just be an act of protest to show how serious the country is about the issue. The Turks recalled Ambassador Sensoy after the whole "we're going to proclaim the mass ethnic cleansing of Armenians during World War I to be a genocide at the worst possible time" bill was almost brought before Congress.
-
Dude Bryan, no one cares about the Balkans, but China would care about the opportunity to screw over the US.
Also I think I recall reading somewhere that Moscow is the world's most expensive place to live.
-
There's money in Moscow, but Russia's economy is tremendously top heavy and one dimensional. They have wealth from oil but it isn't trickling down very well and the buying power over there is still pretty low once you hit what passes for the middle class, which is problematic because it makes developing the kind of service industries that employ so many people here in the States and Western Europe difficult.
-
China would care about the opportunity to screw over the US.
Not until they have a viable economic substitute, which they don't. There is no state with the population, the buying power, and the appetite for non-essential goods like the United States, and there's nobody even really close.
-
Never forget one thing about the ol' U.S. of A: We're the fuckers who made Ron Popeil a rich man. You bet your ass we'll buy your shit.
-
the Serbs have recalled their Ambassador in Washington DC
I wouldn't worry too much about it at this point. It can signal big problems, but it can also just be an act of protest to show how serious the country is about the issue.
You are aware, mate, that this is still the part of the world where the Greeks hate Macedonia because they call their country "Macedonia", right?
-
I'm just pissed because we're going to have to deal with the 2nd gen refugees getting all up in arms about it. You know, the ones who have never been to Serbia or Kosovo and who couldn't point to it on a map having gang wars over it. Good thing I don't live in the suburbs anymore.
-
A mob of 300 Serbs wielding clubs and tools gathered on a road near this small village of ethnic Albanians in northern Kosovo, prompting NATO to send armored vehicles and tanks to head them off.
Earlier, ethnic Albanian police officers, part of Kosovo's multiethnic police force, were forced out of the neighboring Serb village, where they were patrolling with fellow Serbs. It was the latest sign that Serbs in Kosovo, incensed by the declaration of independence, are trying to assert control over the northern part of Kosovo, the majority of whose residents are ethnic Serbs.
It's getting worse. (http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/21/europe/21kosovo.php)
As soon as one Albanian or one Serb is killed, there's NOTHING that's going to stop them from killing each other off. And 16,000 NATO peacekeeping troops is nothing compared to 7 million Albanians (spread throughout the Balkans) fighting another 8 million Serbs. Sheer numbers isn't everything, either, because they're CLEARLY going to all be pissed off.
-
300 Serbs
SERBS! WHAT IS YOUR PROFESSION?
-
"KILL ALBANIANS"?
-
I highly doubt a Cold War would start over the Serbians declaring independence. The current global economic marketplace makes that sort of thing extremely unlikely.
Well, there are much larger tensions brewing. This incident could theoretically spark those tensions but it would be little more than a catalyst. Besides, it's probably not presumptuous to say that if a new Cold War started it would be fought in the stock markets.
-
...Woops. Spoke too soon. This could go downhill terribly fast.
-- Serb rioters broke into the U.S. Embassy Thursday and set fire to it after a massive protest against Kosovo's independence.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Serbia-Kosovo-Independence.html?hp
-
Wow, this is pretty quickly getting quite bad. You OK KimJongSick?
-
Every part of me is unharmed except for my anus, which is pretty severely torn from SHITTING BRICKS.
Man I get so many indie points for calling "THIS WILL ERUPT INTO A SHITSTORM" a week before it happened.
-
You live in Albania right? So your not quite in the middle of the crossfire?
-
can we sum up the middle east in a single sentence? yes?
"We are a discontent sector of the world that feels we should always be at war" or something like that, my money is on the Albanians jumping the gun
-
Since when were the balkans in the middle east?
-
Man I get so many indie points for calling "THIS WILL ERUPT INTO A SHITSTORM" a week before it happened.
Dude, I totally called this shit, like, ten years ago.
-
...exactly ten years ago? By then the war had been going for a full five days!
-
You don't get points for calling something once it's hit the BBC News front page, you get points for calling all the major points of the aftermath of a war a decade in advance.
We're officially at the point where my predictions run out, though, so I've no clue where it'll go from here. I've been spending most of my time make predictions about New Zealand recently, and you won't fucking believe what is in store for the sheep over there!
-
Smartassery aside, you were definitely right in calling it back then. The war in '98 was a geographically smaller version of WWI and WWII, in some very specific ways. Both wars started when ultra-nationalists decided they should get their way, no compromises. Both wars ended with the losing party feeling humiliated. That humiliation bred a "LET'S SHOW THEM!" mentality of nationalism (starting to see a pattern?) which eventually festered and turned into downright arrogance and cockiness toward everybody else. That is exactly what is happening here and anybody who's been watching would be drunk not to see it too. The Serbs have long felt like the losing party (they lost their little empire Yugoslavia) and this is just the final straw after losing Montenegro.
The nationalistic fury has clearly been pushed over the edge into a rampaging state of chaos, and bonus fail is that we're seeing alliances start to form again, just like WWI and WWII. Tensions among the major members of the opposing alliances aren't much helped by the fact that the NATO countries, most especially the U.S., are already at odds with Serbia-backing Russia over missile defense systems being put in place in NATO member states (most notably in Ukraine, where, according to the BBC, Russia even went so far as to threaten nuclear strike).
I'm not trying to fear-monger here (although I am seriously scared out of my goddamn wits), but if people don't stop being FUCKING STUPID here in the Balkans, epic shit's gonna go down and it's not really going to be all too fun for anybody.
-
Being stupid over the Balkans has been how you get your great power status since, oh, the 1870s or something.
-
There's a major hottie in one of my classes that's from Albania. I should read into this in hopes I can use information about a foreign country to get her in bed.
(In all seriousness, I wouldn't do something so callous. I think this is a pretty traumatic thing. I hope it can get cleared up without a civil war happening.)
-
In my experience, Albanian girls are holy fuck did you just see that girl
Also, it appears one of the people who stormed the Embassy in Belgrade last night ended up getting burned to death. Ask me if I feel bad for the diplomacy-jeopardizing son of a bitch.
-
Do you feel bad for the diplomacy-jeopardizing son of a bitch?
-
Do you feel bad for the human being who undoubtedly died in an incredible amount of pain for no particularly good reason?
You're losing your touch, Johnny
-
Do you feel bad for the human being who undoubtedly died in an incredible amount of pain because he was retarded enough to set a fucking building on fire for no good reason?
You're losing your touch, Johnny
-
You know who I hate?
Vojislav Kostunica.
Even though Tadic won the Presidential election a mere, what, 2 weeks ago, this douche of a P.M. is acting like the ultranationalist Serbian factions have been handed some mandate to fuck everyone in the Balkans in the ass.
-
When your citizens are setting foreign embassies on fire left and right and half the world hates you, the CLEAR solution is to blame the Americans (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/02/23/serbia.kosovo/index.html?fark).
Seriously Serbia, you're doing it wrong, you're supposed to aim a bit further north. Have you never seen South Park?
-
Perhaps Serbia has good taste in television.
-
I doubt it if this is what they think 'making their own entertainment' means.
-
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5VWZoKWBYXE
I lol'd. Real hard. The guy filming is totally trolling these two girls while they're looting, and they're getting pissy at him, and he's like, "But you're the heroines of the protest for me! Did you find your size yet?" and it is for lol.
-
i don't get it.
-
Guys, I am calling this on track for a third Red Scare.
If I turn out to be right, y'all owe me twenty bucks, or I'll out y'all as communists.
-
Remember, there is a difference between socialists and communists.
-
Shut your commie mouth, pinko.
-
When I was in Turkey my sister witnessed the PKK staging a protest in Izmir. It never made the news when we were there. Now Kurds are "allowed" to speak their language in Turkey, but it was in the news this morning that Turkish forces are crossing into Iraq and killing off the Kurds there.
an interesting article from January (http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=93363)
the npr article (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=19289515)
at least some countries are recognizing what they are doing abroad. We seem to be in denial about our activities.
-
I bet my nice new computer screen that the serbs will start the shooting and that it will lead to WW3 and act as a catalyst for WW4. Notice how history is repeating itself? Check how the first WW started and you might see the resemblances. Plus with today's weaponry and dumbass politicians, it's not a question of shit hitting the fan: It's a question of nuke hitting where.
-
Wasn't that (nuke hitting the fan) what we worried about all through the cold war? And yet, despite multiple shooting wars, no nukes were used. As long as the whole mutually-assured-destruction thing is still around, I won't be too worried.
-
Russia showed a stunning display of restraint, cool, and calm when they straight up were just like "We are going to nuke Ukraine if you build missile defense bases there, fuck you NATO."
-
The band Franz Ferdinand started WWI. Or something. Funny how a 90 years later they are still fighting about the same things. I'm starting to miss Tito all over. /kidding
-
Oh, lol, at her meeting yesterday, my mum and everybody else at the embassy were told that we should think hard about what we would take if we had to evacuate and could only bring one suitcase.
tl;dr FUCK
EDIT: Bonus points? This comes three days after her telling me "Oh you'll never have to worry about anything, we're not in Kosovo, we're in ALBANIA" and I was like "lol, have fun convincing me of that."
-
As long as the whole mutually-assured-destruction thing is still around, I won't be too worried.
What a fascinating viewpoint. The possibility of the entire world being destroyed in minutes actually reassures you.
-
uh, May I repeat the fact that most modern politicians while under pressure are dumber than teletubies on a mix of LSD, Extasy, and Goatse?
-
I just had a hideous feeling of deja vu. It felt for a second like I'd seen the exact post above me, word for word, something like 5 or 6 years ago, somewhere in a deep corner of the internet inhabited by 8th-graders who think they just found the guy who invented the sprite-based webcomic.
It was a weird feeling and it lingered a little bit. I think it was just the combination of Teletubbies and goatse in the same noun phrase, it touched off bits of my internet memory that haven't been used since 2002.
-
As long as the whole mutually-assured-destruction thing is still around, I won't be too worried.
What a fascinating viewpoint. The possibility of the entire world being destroyed in minutes actually reassures you.
I would prefer it if nobody had said power, but if only one nation had it, they would be all-powerful. Think of it like a mexican standoff, either side shoots first, they die too. Politicians may be absolutely fine with sending other people's kids off to die, but they are less likely to go for it when they know that they will die too.
Like I said, it would be better if nobody had nukes, but while I am wishing for that, I wish for nobody to ever try to hurt someone, and for a magical pink pony that farts rainbows.
-
When I was in Turkey my sister witnessed the PKK staging a protest in Izmir. It never made the news when we were there. Now Kurds are "allowed" to speak their language in Turkey, but it was in the news this morning that Turkish forces are crossing into Iraq and killing off the Kurds there.
an interesting article from January (http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=93363)
the npr article (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=19289515)
at least some countries are recognizing what they are doing abroad. We seem to be in denial about our activities.
1. Not what we're talking about
2. Wrong. They're not "killing off the Kurds." The PKK is a Kurdish terrorist group--labelled as terrorists by Turkey, America and the European Union. In the past few decades of attacks on Turkish civilians and military institutions everywhere from Diyarbakir to Ankara to Istanbul, they've killed more than 30,000 Turks. Turkey has launched a limited campaign, of a limited duration with a relatively small number of soldiers, to weaken the PKK, which has its main bases in the rugged mountains of Northern Iraq, or Iraqi Kurdistan, as the Kurds there like to call it.
3. You have no idea what you're talking about on this matter.
-
Emm, I don't want to be mean here, but it has been pointed out to you that you might be slightly erroneous on this point already. And just because someone is called a terrorist does not mean they are. See, for example, Republican Sinn Fein, who are a US State Department terrorist organisation despite being a legitimate political party in both Ireland and the UK (countries which have actually been affected by the Continuity IRA.)
Seeing as you seem to be rather passionate about the whole issue of the Turkish being entirely blameless in this matter, I think avoiding the whole issue would be for the best.
-
I would prefer it if nobody had said power, but if only one nation had it, they would be all-powerful. Think of it like a mexican standoff, either side shoots first, they die too. Politicians may be absolutely fine with sending other people's kids off to die, but they are less likely to go for it when they know that they will die too.
Like I said, it would be better if nobody had nukes, but while I am wishing for that, I wish for nobody to ever try to hurt someone, and for a magical pink pony that farts rainbows.
Yeah, sort of détente. But now we live in a world where some of the people with powerful weapons are not really worried about all their chit going ka-bl00ie. Whether they are Xtian evangelicals or islamic fundies, they think it's ok. It will all work out for them in the afterlife. Where's my magic pony?
-
"Whether a long range weapon, or suicide bomb, a wicked mind is a weapon of mass destruction."
-
Emm, I don't want to be mean here, but it has been pointed out to you that you might be slightly erroneous on this point already. And just because someone is called a terrorist does not mean they are. See, for example, Republican Sinn Fein, who are a US State Department terrorist organisation despite being a legitimate political party in both Ireland and the UK (countries which have actually been affected by the Continuity IRA.)
Seeing as you seem to be rather passionate about the whole issue of the Turkish being entirely blameless in this matter, I think avoiding the whole issue would be for the best.
It's not as if I have some kind of vested interest in the issue--I don't have a drop of Turkish blood in my body.
-
This entire thread I assumed you were Turkish.
Instead you're just aggressively arguing something that has no personal value to you on the internet.
-
God forbid that I should try to correct someone on something that they're factually inaccurate about.
There's not many things that I claim to be an "expert" on. The issue of Turkey's relations to the Kurds, Armenians and Americans is one of those few things that I do make that claim to. I've spent the last two years researching these subjects for an extended course that I'm taking at a nearby college, extensively, almost on a daily basis. Beyond reading through mounds of historical accounts and analyses and books that take all points of view and myriad unbiased sources, I've also been able to get ahold of facsimiles of official documents of the Turkish, Armenian, American and Azeri governments discussing most of the relevent topics, except where such information is top-level security (the specifics of the intel-sharing between the American and Turkish armies, for instance) as well as copies of the PKK's official propoganda, which calls for "...death to any who oppose the glory of the Kurdish people."
Further, I've gone on a class-sponsored trip to Washington D.C. and met personally with numerous officials who have spent their lives dealing with these topics, including top Defense and State officials, and SIGs that represent both the Kurdish and Turkish stances, as well as the Turkish ambassador to America, and the American ambassadors to Turkey and Armenia.
The general consensus is the same: the PKK has slaughtered tens of thousands of Turks throughout the years, and while in the past the Turkish army has heavily supressed the Kurdish people in south-eastern Anatolia, they have never engaged in whole-sale murder or ethnic cleansing, which is what the PKK blatantly advocates and has been carrying out, on a limited basis, for over thirty years.
The point can often be made that "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." Not in this case. The Peshmerga are 'freedom fighters' that have fought to defend the Kurds for many years--the PKK, on the other hand, murders civilians on a regular basis. Once an organization ceases to launch resistance against military targets and begins massacring innocents, they lose any claim to legitimacy or the right to be called anything other than base defilers of humanity.
If I sound forceful on this issue, it's because I am. It's ridiculously frustrating to have people who have just glanced at a handful of news articles going about blathering like they have any idea of the history of the situation, which is too complex to unless you've devoted a significant amount of time to learning the histories of the Ottoman Empire and Turkish Republic.
On most things, I'm fine with just stepping back and letting most things fall into the realm of opinion, but on this--no. There's not much room for moral wiggling on this--just like there's not much room for moral wiggling on the Ottoman's capaign of ethnic cleansing against the Armenians during the 1st World War.
-
tl;dr no u
-
"Whether a long range weapon, or suicide bomb, a wicked mind is a weapon of mass destruction."
Who said that?
And depending where you are, various odd weapons are considered WMDs, due to the language used in laws not being updated when nukes became WMDs.
-
Faithless. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=c-MfC7pw1AM)
-
you're just aggressively arguing something that has no personal value to you on the internet.
What? How is this a bad thing? I don't think he insulted anyone anywhere, at which point I would argue that he left the grounds of civil debate, but shit, I do this all the damn time. I actually invest quite a lot of time and effort into playing devil's advocate in debates. It's why I am so damn good at writing school papers. I utterly fail to see why this could possibly be bad.
-
I'm not sure I made a qualifier there as to my actual opinion on him doing as such. I just find passionate arguments stemming from cultural interests more interesting, if generally uninformed, than scholarly ones.
-
How abouyt we get back on track before WW3? Why not start a site to bet money on who will shoot first in WW3? 5 C$ on the Serbs! Again!
-
Because betting on people killing each other is always fun!
-
Exactly! 10 CAD$ on who Dick Cheney will shoot next: He will probably invite Hillary Clinton on a hunting trip...
-
I didn't bring up Turkey first, I noticed it being mentioned, and added my anecdote and some articles that tied it to some more current events.
While you may have little opinion of my year in Izmir, my point was that Turkey has been particularly open about what their intentions in Iraq are.
If you cool your jets and re read my post you'll notice I was keeping it brief while weighing in. The protest (read guns firing) my sister witnessed horrified her, and it was an Orwellian nightmare when it was not mentioned in the news.
-
Except, it was in the news. The protest took place in Diyarbakir, in Southeastern Turkey. The protesters threw molotov cocktails at the security and the army--prompting what was extremely harsh and unwarranted measures against the protesters on the part of the latter. Both sides are at fault.
Anyway. This debate has hijacked this topic enough. I'm done.
-
Frullic, I think the difference now is that back then, although there were bombings which destroyed cities and, in the case of France, countries and made a whole lot of mess, there was little chance of destroying the entire planet and rendering it inhabitable for the majority of the population for hundreds of years (I'm being sarcastic; there was no chance).
Although I agree that in wars, the people in power can make some bad decisions, I have to say I'm not convinced anyone who is smart enough to put on their own shoes would not realise how stupid it would be to cause a nuclear war.
That said, if you follow that argument through to the logical conclusion the weapons would never have been created in the first place, so what do I know?
My knowledge of history and geography is severly limited to what they deemed suitable to teach me at school (basically: Hitler, the Holocaust, the crop rotation system in Medieval Britain, the capitals of all the major European cities and the fact that earthquakes are comparable to sex [I failed Geography quite spectacularly]) but nevertheless I think I've got my facts fairly straight.
-
'cept the one I am talking about was in the spring of 1993. I don't know where you where then.
-
I was meaning the second world war, I think I may have skipped a few conversation strands.
Edit for sudden, how-stupid-am-I type realisation: Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I realise, were both part of WWII and both clearly disprove my statement that there were no nuclear weapons then, but in fact I think they did help people to realise that nuclear warfare is not, and never will be, the way forwards.
I think I might sound slightly flippant; I'm not. I don't want to get all sentimental but I love this planet, and I can't think of anything worse than being alive when certain members of my species decide to destroy it.
-
How does this thread not tread on the no-no of discussing religion and/or politics?
-
Don't derail just 'cause you feel like being a whistleblower. It's not like anybody is forcing it on you. A non-political discussion may be found in the hair thread if you feel like this one is too *srs bizniss* for you.
That snarky comment aside, arguing whether bombing Hiroshima or Nagasaki was right or wrong is kindof lame. Nothing you can DO about it, but there's a lot to be learned from it.
The reason Russia has the balls to threaten nuclear attack and all-out war (and why I suspect they might actually do it) is that nobody wants an all-out nuclear war. And even if Russia -does- attack anybody with nuclear weapons, who is seriously going to retaliate and cause an epic shitstorm?
The mutually-assured destruction argument may not be entirely relevant anymore, because when you KNOW retaliation makes the complete annihilation of the planet a serious consideration, you're not going to want to do something like that, now are you? It's just a matter of who makes the first and only strike, and President Bush has got enough of a shit reputation as it is. He doesn't need a pre-emptive nuclear strike on Russia or her allies under his belt.
-
A non-political discussion may be found in the hair thread if you feel like this one is too *srs bizniss* for you.
And this here is a good example of why we have this rule. Patronizing flames are for no.
People who say "if you don't like this thread then go somewhere else" are just not getting it. The problem isn't that some people are too scared for serious political talk, it's that such threads turn into nasty arguments and the participants start acting more angry in general.
Moreover the logic of the suggestion is quite backwards. It's not that people who dislike political debate should leave the thread, it's that people who seek political debate should find a different forum where that isn't against the rules.
EDIT: Is that word a little clearer?
-
If someone launches a nuclear missile, then you can be damn sure that sometime soon someone will retaliate. And anyways, nuclear war is more of a terrifying proposition to me than to america or russia...You could easily cover britain in bombs.
I just realized I am going on about nothing. Anyways, am I the only person who sees nuclear annihilation as an inevability? As long as they exist, they are eventually going to fall into the wrong hands.
-
The problem isn't that some people are too sensitive for serious political talk, it's that such threads turn into nasty arguments and the participants start acting more angry in general.
S.S. Contradiction, ahoy! It's BECAUSE serious political talk is a sensitive topic that things get nasty easily.
That's beside my point though. My point is that it's not against the rules, it's just said that you should tread upon things REALLY FREAKING LIGHTLY unless you want it to get locked and possibly have a temp-b& or permab& set on you.
-
Huh, I always thought religious and political discussions were against the rules.
-
I understand the reasoning behind the rule, but it's too bad, because most of the people here seem to be fairly rational, intelligent and level-headed.
-
for once that something intelligent is happening on internet...
-
Don't derail just 'cause you feel like being a whistleblower. It's not like anybody is forcing it on you. A non-political discussion may be found in the hair thread if you feel like this one is too *srs bizniss* for you.
Actually I was just curious being a noob here. I have no interest in deciding what is said or limiting discourse. I am actually very interested in Politics, History etc...
-
Let's get back to it then. Sorry for being out of line.
If someone launches a nuclear missile, then you can be damn sure that sometime soon someone will retaliate. And anyways, nuclear war is more of a terrifying proposition to me than to america or russia...You could easily cover britain in bombs.
While I agree with the fact that bombs could more easily annihilate Britain than the U.S. or Russia, Russia couldn't really give two shits about Britain. The tensions between Russia and the U.S. are exponentially greater than those between Russia and Britain.
With the current administration I wouldn't put retaliation past them, but maybe with the next administration, cooler heads will prevail and it'll be a conventional war instead of a global extinction of everything but the roaches.
-
But what about the whole Litvinenko-Lugovoi-Berezovsky debacle? Russia and Britain have been engaging in petty tit-for-tat since Alexandre Litvinenko was murdered late in 2006, allegedly by Adrei Lugovoi. Britain asked Russia to extradite Lugovoi to Britian, but the Russians were having none of it, as Berezovsky, a former oligarch turned critic of Putin and the Kremlin, has sought asylum in Britain against corruption and embezzlement charges he faces in Russia, and of course the Britons refuse to extradite him to Russia. So they've been expelling the other's diplomatic staff every once in awhile for the last year or so..I actually think things are worse between between Russia and Britain than they are between America and the former.
-
You could probably kill everyone in the UK with 20 20 megaton bombs, I reckon. Russia has around 6000 strategic nukes.
-
Thing is, though, in a nuclear war there is basically no-one who wouldn't get hit. For example, Ireland is not a member of NATO, has a military consisting of about seven guys with sticks and a paper aeroplane, and is nominally neutral. Still, we get a couple of nukes where it hurts, because Shannon airport is a convenient location for US flights and also has runways you can fly a B-52 off. Britain has US nukes there (and probably bombers too).
Of course, no-one is going to push the button over something like this. Even if the Cold War had gone hot, it wouldn't have gone nuclear immediately - the Soviets didn't need nukes to roll over Germany, to be honest, and NATO wasn't going to start lobbing them around until it got bad (especially seeing as the first nukes would have been going off on German soil). Nowadays, there's no real ground theatre where the Russian, Chinese, or Americans can end up in combat (at least at the moment), and I don't think anyone is crazy enough to push the button just like that.
The whole Litvinenko thing is just one of those diplomatic spats that happen every so often - America is much more of a geopolitical threat to Russia and vice versa. 20 20-megaton bombs is probably a bit too few, although there wouldn't be much left to be honest.
-
With Russia flat-out saying "We will probably nuke you" to Ukraine (moar liek NUKE RAIN amirite) not even 2 months ago, my spirits have been lowered considerably.
-
Fun fact: Even roaches won't survive. There are some bugs that will, but roaches die from radiation exposure. Forget what would survive, besides the spider that bit spider-man.
-
They didn't really say "we'll nuke Ukraine." Putin was at a public forum and said "Unfortunately, we're may to have to aim missiles at the Ukraine as a precautionary measure. Can you imagine?"
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_Clock
-
Fun fact: Even roaches won't survive. There are some bugs that will, but roaches die from radiation exposure. Forget what would survive, besides the spider that bit spider-man.
some kinds of bacteria/fungus will survive
-
Fun fact: Even roaches won't survive. There are some bugs that will, but roaches die from radiation exposure. Forget what would survive, besides the spider that bit spider-man.
Actually I'm pretty sure the spider that bit Peter Parker died shortly afterwards.
-
Of course it did, it was a spider, spiders have a short lifespan. Or did the radiation kill it?
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_Clock
OH SHIT WE HAVE FIVE MINUTES
STILL ENOUGH TO GET LAID TWICE
-
IF YOU'RE A RABBIT!
-
OHHHHHHHH SHIT I TOTALLY DID NOT SEE THAT ONE COMING
THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID
-
HEYO!
-
In related news, Serbian police have decided, "Okay fuck you Kosovo, we're going home to Serbia."
That seems like a sort of offhand way of saying "Okay we recognize your independence" to me, but who am I to say.
-
Maybe they're just trying to wash their hands of any coming violence?
-
Yeah, but yesterday Russia's Foreign Minister blatantly said "we will ensure the unity of Serbia with brute strength if necessary, that is, we will take military measures if it comes to that."
-
So, they could be moving out of the military's way.
-
So, uh... about how much does it cost to set up a nuke shelter anyway?
-
Yeah, but yesterday Russia's Foreign Minister blatantly said "we will ensure the unity of Serbia with brute strength if necessary, that is, we will take military measures if it comes to that."
Man that's what I'm worried the most about. If it's Russia vs. NATO, considering NATO built the Durrës-Tiranë-Kukës highway expressly as a means of providing a supply line for KFOR, I can assure you that there probably ain't a spot on that road that isn't gonna get bombed.
-
That road will end up looking like Kandahar trails. In other news: Ladies, if you don't want to die virgin, 16 year old canadian guy ready for action!
-
Funnily enough, the BBC are advocating growing your own wheat. They say it's because there's a world shortage, but what if it's because the end of the world is coming and we should start trying to do everything we've never done?
I'm afraid my list of things I've never done and would like to does not include frullic.
-
Cool. Serbs inside of Kosovo now have guns, and they're shooting at U.N. and NATO troops.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/18/world/europe/18kosovo.html?ref=world
-
I won that bet! Any news on Bill Clinton building a ginormously huge "Clinton Monument" made of platinum right next to the washington monument?
-
...what?
-
Cool. Serbs inside of Kosovo now have guns, and they're shooting at U.N. and NATO troops.
Hey cool I'm gonna start asking the Albanians in the old part of my neighborhood and see if I can buy an AK and some ammo for like $50.
-
Oh, they also have grenades. So that's even more magical.
-
Mind getting me one if I send cash? I only have canadian dollars though
-
Canadian dollars are worth more than USD now, you should be fine. You will need to pay for the whole deal of smuggling it in though, for some reason canada doesn't like people importing grenades.
-
I won that bet! Any news on Bill Clinton building a ginormously huge "Clinton Monument" made of platinum right next to the washington monument?
So, did you hear about that special $600 dollar economic incentive being given out around here?
-
SIX hundred? I heard it was three. Fuck I might actually buy that Fender Jag.
-
The mutually-assured destruction argument may not be entirely relevant anymore, because when you KNOW retaliation makes the complete annihilation of the planet a serious consideration, you're not going to want to do something like that, now are you? It's just a matter of who makes the first and only strike, and President Bush has got enough of a shit reputation as it is. He doesn't need a pre-emptive nuclear strike on Russia or her allies under his belt.
You're acting under the assumption that the highest cause that any leader sees is the survival and prosperity of the human race as a whole. What would be more accurate is that world leaders are concerned with the size of their "e-peen" relative to those of other world leaders. The best way to make your leader-peen bigger, is to say, "well I'm prepared to fuck everyone for the sake of proving that I'm right and that my country is teh bestzorzlol." This is how global politics works more often than not sadly.
-
Oh, they also have grenades. So that's even more magical.
Grenades are for pussys. The Finnish beat the might of the Soviet Union with vodka bottles full of petrol, and they're all alcoholics with weird eyes.
Seriously the finnish army were like sitting round one morning after a binge and one of them was still drunk and he was all 'lets fill these empty vodka bottles full of petrol and chuck them at Russian tanks'.
And so they did it, and then the tank crews were all running round on fire and the tanks were exploding and the Finnish were like 'oh shit, looks like we may not have to queue for bread after all'.
-
What I don't understand is this: Serbia is pissed at Kosovo. Kosovo is the only one they might have any reasonable cause for being pissed. And they ransack foreign Embassies, Molotov their own police, agree-without-agreeing that Kosovo is independent by withdrawing all the state-supported institutions and government facilities from the area, and *destroy their own fucking capital city and government*, and then they say "YEAH FUCK YOU AMERICA THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT!"
Seriously nothing they have done has damaged Kosovo in any way, save for the pathetically small violent outbursts by the Serb minority in Mitrovica, and they do this shit and they're like "TAKE THAT KOSOVO!" I swear I will never fucking understand Serbia.
-
So how about that Tibet? (http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10875823)
-
Oh, they also have grenades. So that's even more magical.
Grenades are for pussys.
QFT. Real men use C4. Though four pounds may be a bit... excessive.
-
I swear I will never fucking understand Serbia.
Only a Serb will understand a Serb but even then there is some difficulty in communication. Hence, a common exchange between Serbian males will result in a) drininking, b) violence or c) communal violence. A combination of these outcomes is highly probable.
I also believe that this may be the case with Croatians.
So how about that Tibet? (http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10875823)
China will never relinquish its suzerainty over Tibet due to that large ore body under the Plateau.
-
Someone tell me why Serbia wants Kosovo so badly. Because, reading the Wikipedia article, I can't fathom why. It'd be like if Texas left the union. Just let them go, man.
Texas at least has some economic value while Kosovo seems to only have organized crime and a steady stream of willing prostitutes. Or at least it did when I was there in 2000.
-
So wait, you're saying that organised crime and prozzies aren't economonic assets?
You're fooling yourself, boy.
-
Doesn't Texas extract the most oil out of all of the union? I think that would be useful enough not to encourage them to leave.
Or is that Alaska?
-
So wait, you're saying that organised crime and prozzies aren't economonic assets?
You're fooling yourself, boy.
No kidding, have you guys SEEN Albanian girls?
Doesn't Texas extract the most oil out of all of the union? I think that would be useful enough not to encourage them to leave.
Or is that Alaska?
I think Alaska puts the most oil INTO the Union.