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Fun Stuff => ENJOY => Topic started by: morca007 on 26 Mar 2008, 19:03

Title: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: morca007 on 26 Mar 2008, 19:03
http://users.livejournal.com/_allecto_/34718.html?view=260510

Quote from: From the essay
This is a really long rant about Joss Whedon's Firefly. Why? Because I'm angry and I think it is really important that feminists don't leave popular culture out of the equation. Especially considering that popular culture is increasingly being influenced by pornography.

***

I have become increasingly interested in examining Joss Whedon’s work from a feminist perspective since I had a conversation with another lesbian feminist sister at the International Feminist Summit about whether Joss was a feminist. I am really quite shocked by how readily Joss is accepted as a feminist, and that his works are widely considered to be feminist. I decided to start re-watching Buffy: The Vampire Slayer and also to watch Firefly and the movie Serenity.

I have to say that now that I have subjected myself to the horror that is Firefly, I really am beyond worried about how much men hate us, given that this was written by a man who calls himself a feminist.

I find much of Joss Whedon’s work to be heavily influenced by pornography, and pornographic humour. While I would argue that there are some aspects of Buffy: The Vampire Slayer that are feminist and progressive, there is much that isn’t and I find it highly problematic that there are many very woman-hating messages contained within a show that purports itself as feminism. But Firefly takes misogyny to a new level of terrifying. I am really, really worried that women can call the man who made this show a feminist.

It's so hard to believe this isn't a joke, and once you get to that point, it's hard not to hate people.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Surgoshan on 26 Mar 2008, 19:19
There are some women who believe that women taking control of their sexuality is empowering and feminist.

There are others who believe that a woman being portrayed as sexual, regardless of whether she's powerful or in charge of her sexuality or just an object, is pornographic and degrading and anti-feminist.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Butch on 26 Mar 2008, 19:27
So, according to that person who scribed this, a woman wanting to have any sexual interest is demeaning and pornographic? That is quite the odd take on feminism, having an extremely narrow view of women's freedom of expression.

Edit: Okay, upon combing through the comments on that journal and reading how anyone who thinks she's gone to extremes on her views of sex in Firefly is "pro-prostituion" and their "comments will be deleted," I just want to die inside.  How can there be so much hate in one person that anyone having a different opinion is automatically without merit?

Also, how is all sex rape to this user?  I'm thinking personal issues have heavily biased her ideas of the world in very damaging ways.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Emaline on 26 Mar 2008, 19:35
So women should not be sexual at all? Or I guess they should only be sexual when their partners want them to be, right? What about lesbians?


I'm a feminist, and what that person said offended me. As a feminist, I should be allowed to be sexual, when I want.


Also, I saw one or two episodes of Firefly, and it wasn't bad. Plus, if I recall correctly, there was a strong female lead in that show, who fought just as hard as the men in the show.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Ikrik on 26 Mar 2008, 20:01
Wow.  Reading her argument is possibly one of the saddest things I've ever seen in my entire life.  But what's better is if you read the comments on the bottom and her replies to them.  Remember one thing, this woman is a self described "radical feminist."  This is a woman who could and WILL find ANYTHING she finds offensive as sexist.  Her arguments are founded not in her ignorance, but in her blind anger.  Her analysis of the characters is ridicilous.  What she wants is a cast that respects and works with each other.  What creates a great show is a cast that CLASHES, not a cast that overcomes everything together.  Honestly, I was so confused by this woman that I read some more of her livejournal....god.  This woman is so angrily feminist it's disgusting, seriously, read some of this shit.  This is a woman who will hate any man for the simple reason that "he's a man."  I wonder if she understood that Firefly is a "Space WESTERN."  god....
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: muteKi on 26 Mar 2008, 20:22
Well, somebody's paranoid.

EDIT: I didn't find it funny until I read this comment of hers, stuff I found funny in bold and red:

Quote
Hmm... Considering I watched the whole series twice, read through every single script, read through Serenity about five times, counted the lines that men spoke and women spoke, then worked for about three weeks trying to write this I think it is interesting that you call me lazy. But anyways, courtesan is just another name for a woman in prostitution. I don't distinguish between women who are bought by men as sex and other 'feminine' resources. If you do, and you think that there is a nice way for men to buy women as sex, that there is an empowered way that women can sell themselves as sex then my journal is the wrong place for you. If you are pro-prostitution then you are not a feminist and pro-prostitution/women-hating opionions are not welcome on my journal. All prostitution is rape. The men who buy Inara ARE selling her into sexual slavery. For the time that they buy her she is 'theirs'.

I will be talking more about all of the characters. I was particularly concentrating on Serenity in this post. And Mal and Jayne's relationship definitely begs for a feminist examination.

Oh, and any more pro-prostituion comments will be deleted.

Paranoid

EDIT 2: Also, this

Quote
I believe in the radical feminist definition of rape. That is that men who pressure women into sex are rapists. That women who are pressured are not freely consenting and are therefore being raped. There have been a few discussions recently in the rad fem blogosphere debating whether all male initiated sex is rape, given that women are politically, socially and economically subordinate to men. So, in my understanding of Joss Whedon as a rapist is hinges on my definition of rape. I would argue that most 'sex' between men and women, in the contemporary 'sex-positive', pornographic, male-supremacist culture, is rape.

Paranoid... and delusional? I don't feel that either the sweeping generalization and especially not the idea that springs forth from it are necessarily valid. Honestly, women have to have some responsibility for their own decisions, otherwise they're digging their own grave!
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Ikrik on 26 Mar 2008, 20:27
Well, somebody's paranoid.

EDIT: I didn't find it funny until I read this comment of hers, stuff I found funny in bold and red:

Quote
Hmm... Considering I watched the whole series twice, read through every single script, read through Serenity about five times, counted the lines that men spoke and women spoke, then worked for about three weeks trying to write this I think it is interesting that you call me lazy. But anyways, courtesan is just another name for a woman in prostitution. I don't distinguish between women who are bought by men as sex and other 'feminine' resources. If you do, and you think that there is a nice way for men to buy women as sex, that there is an empowered way that women can sell themselves as sex then my journal is the wrong place for you. If you are pro-prostitution then you are not a feminist and pro-prostitution/women-hating opionions are not welcome on my journal. All prostitution is rape. The men who buy Inara ARE selling her into sexual slavery. For the time that they buy her she is 'theirs'.

I will be talking more about all of the characters. I was particularly concentrating on Serenity in this post. And Mal and Jayne's relationship definitely begs for a feminist examination.

Oh, and any more pro-prostituion comments will be deleted.

Paranoid

Paranoid?  Or lying completely through her teeth to make it seem like she knows what she's talking about?  If she hated the show this much she wouldn't have watched it so many times.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: muteKi on 26 Mar 2008, 20:37
THIS GETS BETTER AND BETTER!

Quote
Yeah, And I think another problem is what type of strength, where the strength comes from and what the strength is being used for. For example, Zoe's 'strength' is physical and violent. Now that is a male view of strength according to me. I love seeing women with physical strength. Women in the trades, handy lesbian women who can use drills, women who have strength from the work of child-rearing. But I have serious problems with the male view that physical strength is measured by the capacity for violence. So that is a major problem I have with Zoe's character. Every black woman I have ever met has abhorred violence. The black feminist books I read are very anti-violence. How can showing a black woman being violent be feminism? Zoe's strength, her capacity for physical violence is not being used for any kind of good. First she is fighting a war (and I believe that no war is good), then she is stealing things and committing crime under the orders of Mal and usually against her will. Her strength is not being used in self-defense, for protection or anything really justifiable, her strength is being used for gain, not even her own gain, but gain for Mal. I can't see this as being feminism either.

  !!!
  /
:-D


LOL ALL MEN ARE BAD AND WANT TO KILL YOU IN YOUR SLEEP AND THEN HAVE SEX WITH YOU LOL!!
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Jackie Blue on 26 Mar 2008, 20:45
When Firefly is a shining example of oppressive male culture and female subservience, it is perhaps time to step back and re-evaluate your priorities.

Shit, the women in Firefly were usually more bad-ass than the men!
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Nodaisho on 27 Mar 2008, 02:27
I can't say I ever saw Zoe do a quick-draw eyeshot after having just ridden at a gallop without breaking stride, but I never saw her being stupid played for comedy either, so it balances out. And of course, River shot three guys with her eyes shut.

As to her definition of rape... Someone needs to beat this woman with a dictionary. Seriously.

People this stupid piss me off because they give me conflicting conclusions with my morals. One one side, people should be free to say what they want, on the other, people shouldn't be free to be so goddamn stupid. Times were they wouldn't be that stupid, because if they were, they were wolf chow. Now we put safety messages on big wheels saying not to ride them on the freeway.

When does Zoe object to doing crime?

Is anyone going to troll this stupid bastard? I would say bitch, but that would be sexist... Not that I at all advocate the haranguing of someone simply for being stupid, wrong-headed, and offensive. For the record.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: idiolect on 27 Mar 2008, 03:00
I am happy to call myself a feminist.  I'm not sure I'd call myself a "radical feminist" but there have been other people who would.  I would even be willing to entertain a discussion on whether or not sex within a system of institutional oppression could be considered rape, insofar as when we say "consenting adults" there's an implicit requirement that "adults" be of equal status in terms of agency etc etc (although I worry that such use of the word "rape" dilutes the term as used by those who have, er, experienced what is meant by the more mainstream use of the word).  I'm really not sure that I'd call Joss Whedon's work feminist, and I especially never got the Buffy-as-feminist thing.  But this?  Jesus christ is that some shitty, superficial criticism she's deploying.  I mean, you could probably do a much more defensible reading of the show as exploring some of these issues.  The characters do seem pretty gendered to me, but only insofar as they each explore some particular disconnect within a certain archetype traditionally associated with their gender (and this, I think, very much applies to the male characters as well).


Also, that handy-lesbians-with-drills thing?  Hey there, why is it that only lesbians get drills -- or why is it that lesbians only get drills?  Way to perpetuate an oppressively restricting stereotype while purporting to rail against them.  That statement about women of color with white men wasn't terribly great either.


Maybe I just can't possibly understand her, because if I had lived in the Firefly universe I totally would have considered aiming for Inara's job.   
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Spluff on 27 Mar 2008, 03:25
Sounds like somebody needs a good cock!


Okay, jokes aside. This is really kind of scary - I have no idea how people can grow up into an adult that actually believes this kind of nonsense. Her parents must have done something very, very, wrong.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: morca007 on 27 Mar 2008, 03:39
Okay, jokes aside. This is really kind of scary - I have no idea how people can grow up into an adult that actually believes this kind of nonsense. Her parents must have done something very, very, wrong.
I have met these people, they hate me for having a penis.

Is anyone going to troll this stupid bastard? I would say bitch, but that would be sexist... Not that I at all advocate the haranguing of someone simply for being stupid, wrong-headed, and offensive. For the record.
Heavy comment moderation.  :cry:
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Nodaisho on 27 Mar 2008, 03:46
So? That doesn't stop people from trolling moderated forums. I think that the idea is just to flood someone until they give up and curl up into a ball in their computer chair. I am not sure she would be able to, due to the huge stick up her ass.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: idiolect on 27 Mar 2008, 04:14
"Moderated" in this case means that it won't even show up, though -- she has to "approve" each and every one of those comments before it appears.  So, I mean, you could send her a bunch of stuff, but no one would ever see it except her, and I'm sure she's already getting all sorts of crap anyway.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Jimmy the Squid on 27 Mar 2008, 04:26
That was one) narrowminded, humourless and made huge, sweeping generalisations in as casual a manner as I order a pizza when I can't be bothered to cook (often). It was also 2) incredibly racist and naiive. Obviously, and by her own admission, the author of this travesty against well-thought out arguments has experienced or at the very least witnessed the cruelty of certain men against certain women. It is incredibly stupid, though very very easy to assume that this same type of cruelty is enacted by all men. And yeah, as a straight, white, middle class male I am fucking offended.

Quote
The first scene opens in a war with Mal and Zoe. Zoe runs around calling Mal ‘sir’ and taking orders off him. I roll my eyes. Not a good start.

The first scene is  in a military context. If Mal is Zoe's superior officer than of course she is going to be calling him "sir" and following his orders.

Quote
Jayne asks Mal to get Kaylee to stop being so cheerful. Mal replies, “Sometimes you just wanna duct tape her mouth and dump her in the hold for a month.”

What the fuck is this feminist man trying to say about women here? A black woman calling a white man ‘sir’. A white male captain who abuses and silences his female crew, with no consequences. The women are HAPPY to be abused. They enjoy it.

I do not believe that this is any kind of malicious statement though, if only the script is read I suppose it could be taken as such. It is obvious from the way the actors portray their characters that there is a pretty high level of camaraderie between the crew members of Serenity. These kinds of jibes are/would be commonplace in this kind of environment. I agree that this is often a little one-sided but again, there is never anything malicious behind the jokes.

I could go on deconstructing her "well-researched" (it isn't) and "bias-free" (it definitely is not that!) little rant (yes, I am being deliberately condescending) but honestly it makes me too angry to be reminded that there are people who are this ridiculously narrow-minded and downright bigotted in the world. Her assumptions about Whedon's private life are petty, cruel and painfully simple-minded, not to mention unfounded, her anecdotal evidence about interracial couples are almost heartbreaking and overtly racist and her obvious revilement of men in general as well as her flippant use of the word rape which is, as several commentators have pointed out, loaded with connotations that do not even come close to describing what she is trying to, is insensitive and offensive to anyone who has been a victim of what is a physically, emotionally and psychologically damaging attack.

Firefly is not a particularly pro-feminist show (I wouldn't have described any of Whedon's work as particularly feminist but whatever) however it is not the cro-magnon abuse-and-rape-fest that she makes it out to be either. Some of her points, mainly about prostitution being bad in so much as it is not what I would call "good", I can get behind but the abrasive tone and one sidedness of her post literally enrages me. I am half inclined to disregard her entire opinion on anything simply based on how much of a jerk she has made herself out to be.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Jackie Blue on 27 Mar 2008, 04:53
Not to mention River killed LIKE TWO FUCKING DOZEN REAVERS SINGLE-HANDEDLY.

Oh, but women who use violence are not being "strong", right.  Even when they're protecting those they love.

And I just noticed this on the second read-through: What the fuck does THIS mean?

"Mal and Jayne's relationship definitely begs for a feminist examination."

What?  Is she saying Jayne is gay?  Or Mal is gay?  Or is she so blinded by anger she got Jayne and Kaylee's names mixed up even though she's "watched the series twice and read the script blah blah blah"?

Head hurts.  Woman make no sense to stupid man like me.  Extensive rant about show which aired 6 years ago for 14 episodes bigtime waste of breath.

I never watched Buffy, but I saw absolutely nothing against women in Angel, either.

This has got to be a hoax.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: idiolect on 27 Mar 2008, 06:37
The first scene is  in a military context. If Mal is Zoe's superior officer than of course she is going to be calling him "sir" and following his orders.

A bunch of people have made this comment, and I've sort of flinched every time, because I know exactly how she's going to react: with indignation that you would be so comfortable with women in a subordinate role that you wouldn't bother to question it.  That, of course, isn't really the problem -- what's really the problem is that she did a terrible job of making her original complaint, and just ripped a single line from the script and says SEE SHE CALLS HIM SIR BLAAARGHHH instead of explaining anything.  But when you're analyzing something like this, in general, don't just go "well of course, that's how the show is," because the whole thing at issue is why the show is set up that way (e.g. why is Zoe a military subordinate in the first place, etc etc)


NOTE: I do NOT agree with 99.9% of what this self-appointed exemplar of feminism (argh) says, I just think saying what amounts to "well that's how the story is" as if it's some kind of analysis is kind of silly.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Jimmy the Squid on 27 Mar 2008, 07:00
My criticism is based on how she did not address the fact that it was in a military context. I do see your point and yes my argument does suffer in that respect but my analysis was not of the scene in question but rather her criticism of it. I can appreciate how placing a black female character as subordinate to a white male (and southern, no less!) could be seen as dubious, though in the context of the show I do not see it that way, however my complaint was that the author of the article, for lack of a better word, did not seem to register the context of the characters actions.

Also, in my defense, I would like to think that I wouldn't question the situation if Mal was the subordinate in that relationship. I am trying not to mistake "ought" for "is". The fact of the matter is that that is quite literally how the show is; this is not analysis, it is just the content of the series. I am neither attacking nor defending the show other than the point that in a military relationship, superior officers are referred to as "sir" or "ma'am" (that might need clarification, I am neither in the military nor in the habit of talking to people who are) and their orders are generally followed.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Surgoshan on 27 Mar 2008, 08:29
How can there be so much hate in one person that anyone having a different opinion is automatically without merit?
Go to church some time.  Or a political rally.

Quote
Also, how is all sex rape to this user?  I'm thinking personal issues have heavily biased her ideas of the world in very damaging ways.
Would calling her "damaged goods" be too dismissive and condescending without explaining enough?  She must've been seriously messed up by something.


That or this whole thing is a big, unfunny troll 'joke' of a blag.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Ozymandias on 27 Mar 2008, 10:15
A bunch of people have made this comment, and I've sort of flinched every time, because I know exactly how she's going to react: with indignation that you would be so comfortable with women in a subordinate role that you wouldn't bother to question it.  That, of course, isn't really the problem -- what's really the problem is that she did a terrible job of making her original complaint, and just ripped a single line from the script and says SEE SHE CALLS HIM SIR BLAAARGHHH instead of explaining anything.  But when you're analyzing something like this, in general, don't just go "well of course, that's how the show is," because the whole thing at issue is why the show is set up that way (e.g. why is Zoe a military subordinate in the first place, etc etc)


NOTE: I do NOT agree with 99.9% of what this self-appointed exemplar of feminism (argh) says, I just think saying what amounts to "well that's how the story is" as if it's some kind of analysis is kind of silly.

When you start thinking about "why is the story how it is" it does start to lead to an analysis that questions just how much Joss's shows are "feminist". Both Buffy and Firefly feature very strong female leads, but in both instances they answer to a male authority and the only logic as to way they have to answer to him is because, basically, "he's the authority because he's the authority." Ostensibly, Giles and Mal are "smarter" than Buffy or Zoe. They make the plans. Eventually, Buffy rejects Giles's authority, but the result is not much change at all, as she continuously comes to him for the ideas and the plans through the fifth season. In the sixth season, Giles leaves and Buffy's life goes to hell, only to be fixed upon his return. Admittedly, the sixth season was bullshit in its entirety, but it still bears thought. I don't think Joss is intentionally subverting his feminist message, but I do think it's something that bears more thought when calling either show feminist or even holding feminist ideals, because I think this is a recurring dichotomy in a lot of science fiction. There's no problem with having a strong female character as long as she's kept in check by a "smarter" male authority. The Terminator comes to mind, I just read Snow Crash and Y.T. is definitely directed if not controlled by the men of the novel, in Dune, even, the Bene Gesserit use their consider power to aid men rather than themselves and their ultimate goal is a perfect man. The only thing I can think off of the top of my head where the strong female character successfully bucks authority and takes control for the better is Aliens.

Addendum: This woman is crazy.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: RobbieOC on 27 Mar 2008, 10:28
This is the argument that Laura Mulvey always made (makes?) in her articles. I have specifically read an article (scholarly, no less) about Wonder Woman and Buffy and how they deal with authority figures, as opposed to heroes like Batman and Superman, who basically put on a cape and started fighting crime. There's a big double standard in all of fiction about this kind of thing. Buffy is about as close as it comes to true feminism in the mainstream, but it still leaves a lot to be desired.

Plus, Zoe: hot. Buffy: hot. Fred/Illyria: hot. Joss can say he has strong women all he wants (and I do believe that for the most part he's at least trying to create good female characters), but as long as these women are as hot as they are, it all seems kind of shallow. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they are hot, but it seems strange to say "No, these are strong women, not just objects to be looked at" and then hire Sarah Michelle Gellar to play the role.

Oh, the Powder Puff Girls were in that article, also.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: muteKi on 27 Mar 2008, 11:07
I suppose it says a lot about me that after reading the rest of the comments on the article I high-tailed it to DOMAI?

CLEARLY I AM AN EVIL RAPIST DEMON MAN WATCH OUT LADIES

Here's what some random person commented with:
Quote
How you pointed out that the way in which Wash treats Zoe isn't loving but LUDE! He even pats her butt in one episode! And when he is talking to the Alliance guy about her legs and watching her bathe - I mean c'mon! I don't even let my husband watch me bathe because I know he is leering and leering is NOT permitted! Not with me! Men - that is NOT love it is just lust when you 'admire' your wife's body like that!

Yes, admiring natural beauty is wrong everyone! When you're out appreciating forests or sunsets or beaches you're committing leering, and that's just plain lude.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Border Reiver on 27 Mar 2008, 11:34
Based on the writings, this person is a radical, and like most radicals will interpret what she reads/sees based on her extreme beliefs. 

Generally, the way to deal with people like this is to ignore them, and by not carrying on about them and giving credence to their viewpoint by caring enough to be ticked off by it they can be difused. 

And on a different note, I wonder what she thinks of Battlestar Galactica and they way the Marines and Chief Tyrol oppress Capt Starbuck by calling her "Sir".
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Jackie Blue on 27 Mar 2008, 12:02
Actually I would say that Zoe is often demonstrably "smarter" than Mal and her answering to him because "he's the captain" is not really an issue because, as she explains at least once or twice in the series, she tends to go with his plans because she agrees with them.  I believe her and Wash had that exact conversation in that one episode where Wash gets all jealous.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Narr on 27 Mar 2008, 13:51
I think one of the funniest parts about this is how she's picking apart... Firefly.

How many episodes were there again?  She's completely flipping a lid and losing her mind over a show that did not complete an entire single season run.

Don't get me wrong; Firefly is pretty awesome.  But damn, woman.  It's a cult classic which is to say fans love it and most other people on earth don't even know it exists.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Aminal on 27 Mar 2008, 14:07

Every time I bang my boyfriend I'm letting down the feminist movement.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Butch on 27 Mar 2008, 14:19
Every time I bang my boyfriend I'm letting down the feminist movement.
That memo went out fifteen years ago.  Didn't you get a copy?

Oh, and you're quoted for that.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Jackie Blue on 27 Mar 2008, 17:13
I don't think Zoe is hot.

Kaylee and River... yeah, okay.

Inara... well, being "hot" was kind of integral to her character so I don't see the problem there.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Nodaisho on 27 Mar 2008, 18:42
Every time I bang my boyfriend I'm letting down the feminist movement.
That memo went out fifteen years ago.  Didn't you get a copy?

Oh, and you're quoted for that.
This whole thing reminded me of an essay I read for English Comp, written by a woman in the 70s who was a stay at home mother, all of her female friends derided her for her decision to not have a job, and to take care of her kids. A father staying at home would have been applauded, a mother taking care of her late sister's children would be applauded, but for some reason a woman can't take care of her own kids? The movement to "empower" women wasn't about empowerment, it was about fulfilling the leader's agenda by telling the women that to be empowered, you had to do exactly what you were told, but by the women this time rather than the men. Doing what you want to do apparently isn't empowered.

Of course, thirty years later, her husband divorced her for a 20-something, but that is the husband being a slimebag, not all men are, no matter how much hypocritical misandrists want them to be.

Did I spell misandrist right? Firefox says I didn't, but their dictionary is incomplete.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: muteKi on 27 Mar 2008, 19:29
Actually I would say that Zoe is often demonstrably "smarter" than Mal and her answering to him because "he's the captain" is not really an issue because, as she explains at least once or twice in the series, she tends to go with his plans because she agrees with them.  I believe her and Wash had that exact conversation in that one episode where Wash gets all jealous.


I'll respond to a few extra posts here with this, starting with the above.

Yeah, there was a whole episode apparently based on the idea, it was the one with the return of Niska, among other things ("This is his fight." "NO IT'S NOT!").

Also, Inara = HOT.

And that one episode of Family Guy, I am reminded of it right now. Said the exact same thing as Nodaisho mentioned from the essay.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Jimmy the Squid on 27 Mar 2008, 20:01
Ok so I was thinking about this this morning on the train and I've come to several conclusions.

Some of her ideas are totally valid. The thing about Zoe's empowerment only being derived from her use of violence (a supposedly male attribute) I can see and appreciate. The idea that all prostitution is rape I actually take issue with, especially since if she is using the whole Companion thing as an example then she needs to understand the context of that example within the world it takes place in, also I think her use of the word rape is too frivilous and that she should be a little more tactful.

Basically I just wanted to say that some of her ideas I can appreciate and respect but her execution was appalling and the tone of her article made me cringe with every sentence.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: idiolect on 27 Mar 2008, 20:20
When you start thinking about "why is the story how it is" it does start to lead to an analysis that questions just how much Joss's shows are "feminist"... There's no problem with having a strong female character as long as she's kept in check by a "smarter" male authority.

Yes, exactly.  I think Firefly in particular was pretty complex, though, in terms of the gender dynamics and archetypes and challenges to those same archetypes etc etc.  That's a huge part of what kept me interested in the show and watching instead of reacting in that "roll my eyes" sort of way.  It seemed like there was more playing and experimentation with these images than strict enforcement of them.  For example, Zoe is obviously supposed to be the fierce and somewhat exoticised woman of color, a little overphysicalized, kept in check by the authoritative hand of some man, and yet she's the only member of the crew who is married, and the way their love is portrayed seems pretty counter to the first image we have of her.

In any case, yeah, I'm not sure why people are so keen on Whedon's work being "feminist" (to me it always seemed like maybe one step above calling the Spice Girls feminist because of all that "girl power" bs).  But I do think there's some interesting stuff going on in Firefly that might warrant a closer look, for those who are interested in this kind of thing.

Quote
in Dune, even, the Bene Gesserit use their consider power to aid men rather than themselves and their ultimate goal is a perfect man.

I know :(  I haven't read Dune in a few years, but I do remember being a little weirded out by the dual structure of the advisor types, that is, the bene gesserit and all that is associated with them vs. the mentats and their related notions and images.  Also, now I'm trying to think of all the various places throughout western (and eastern?) intellectual history where it is said that a woman's highest aspiration is to give birth to a great man.

Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Ozymandias on 27 Mar 2008, 21:17
I don't think it's ever demonstrated that Zoe is smarter than Mal. Maybe more cool-headed, but not necessarily smarter. At best I would put them as equals in intelligence and ability and, yet, Zoe remains subordinate. Take Our Mrs. Reynolds. Zoe very obviously disagrees with Mal and Wash and, yet, she goes along with Mal because, after all, he's the captain. It's that position that is important, Zoe is not on equal footing with Mal regardless of her skills and intelligence.

I'm trying hard to find female authority figures in sci-fi, particularly. Captain Janeway, quality of Voyager aside, was the ultimate authority of her ship. Chakotay was a captain of a ship himself and still subordinate to her. Admiral Cain of the Pegasus in BSG was definitely a strong authority figure, but also fucking awful so she doesn't really count. President Roslin, OTOH, I think is a pretty good figure. She's not the only authority figure, but she is extremely intelligent and doesn't always go along with Adama.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Jackie Blue on 27 Mar 2008, 21:32
I don't think it's ever demonstrated that Zoe is smarter than Mal.

I could have sworn there were several times where Zoe said "This is a bad idea" and later Mal said "I guess you were right" or she said "I told you so".
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Nodaisho on 27 Mar 2008, 22:30
And of course, it seems like she survived the war more through skill (sneaking up behind an alliance soldier and cutting his throat, on rubble, in boots), where as mal just got very lucky (running, yelling, and shooting not even bothering to take cover).

I think that the writer of the blog thinks that a woman shows empowerment by hating men. That is all that she seems to do, hate everything that men do. I kind of feel sorry for her, she can't be a happy person with that much hate going on.

Ozy, how about Honor Harrington? She is kind of a mary-sue, but she is an authority figure. Not the leader of the whole navy or anything, but only subordinate to a few people. Granted, some of those are males (at least one of them is a woman), but she is usually given free reign within her assignment to do as she sees fit.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: muteKi on 27 Mar 2008, 23:59
I'm trying hard to find female authority figures in sci-fi, particularly.

Depending on how strict your definition is, maybe Princess Sally from the old Sonic the Hedgehog Saturday morning cartoon?
She was capable, smart, cool-headed and could definitely take care of herself, and really did have a legitimate leadership position while Sonic did most of the grunt "hero" work, though that said she certainly also put herself in the front lines quite regularly.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: LordNagash on 28 Mar 2008, 03:20
Samus Aran, from the sci-fi games series collectively called Metroid. As mentioned before, Ripley from Aliens. Dr Crusher from Star Trek next generation. While not the captain herself, she had athority over Picard if she needed to. Major Motoko Kusanagi from Ghost in the Shell (more Stand Alone Complex than the first 2 movies.) I am sure there are more.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Jackie Blue on 28 Mar 2008, 03:34
Sally Shears/Molly Millions from Gibson's early work.  That girl did not take shit from anybody and she would (quite literally) cut you if you tried anything wise on her.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Scruffy on 28 Mar 2008, 06:29
I was going to write an individual retort for each of the four main female characters, but I decided that replying to a feminist saying Firefly was sexist is like removing wallpaper with handfulls of sand.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: idiolect on 28 Mar 2008, 07:19
like removing wallpaper with handfulls of sand.

Wow, what a great image, and what a wide range of things there are in the world that could be aptly described that way.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: idiolect on 28 Mar 2008, 07:38
Also, guys, just for the record, I really hope you don't take this person to represent feminists in general.  As far as I'm concerned, she only represents her own wacky self.   :|
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Butch on 28 Mar 2008, 07:44
I know she's a ridiculous extremist.  If all feminists thought that this blinding "anything woman does with suggestion or presence of man is rape" credo were the law, they'd be a hate organization and not a justified perspective.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Aminal on 28 Mar 2008, 08:56
The movement to "empower" women wasn't about empowerment, it was about fulfilling the leader's agenda by telling the women that to be empowered, you had to do exactly what you were told, but by the women this time rather than the men. Doing what you want to do apparently isn't empowered.

See, I used to buy into that.  I told my roomate her mom was LAZY for being a stay-at-home mom when she's trained as a nurse.  Then one day I saw this Barbie movie, The Princess and the Pauper, and at the end the Pauper goes off to pursue her dream of...something.  BUT THEN she comes back, and says "Sometimes the freedom to choose means choosing to stay instead of to go."  And I finally saw the light. 
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Ozymandias on 28 Mar 2008, 10:27
Samus Aran, from the sci-fi games series collectively called Metroid. As mentioned before, Ripley from Aliens. Dr Crusher from Star Trek next generation. While not the captain herself, she had athority over Picard if she needed to. Major Motoko Kusanagi from Ghost in the Shell (more Stand Alone Complex than the first 2 movies.) I am sure there are more.

I thought of Samus too, but then remembered Fusion retconning the series so that she always took orders from Adam. Thank you, shitty game for continuing to ruin the series in some small way.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Ikrik on 28 Mar 2008, 11:57
Also, guys, just for the record, I really hope you don't take this person to represent feminists in general.  As far as I'm concerned, she only represents her own wacky self.   :|

Really? For me she represents a few feminists I know.  I wish there was another word for femanazi....but that perfectly describes them.  They hate men for the simple fact that they're men.  They won't treat any male with respect because of the thousands of years of female repression.  It's weird because ANY argument you get into with them turns immediately to the fact that they're women...which means they're right, and since I'm a dude I'm obviously just trying to repress them.  She reminds me of a bunch of girls in my school everyone tries desperately to avoid talking to.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Narr on 28 Mar 2008, 12:33
There are feminists that aren't radical.  They usually don't really bother to label themselves as feminists, however.

There ARE a lot of disturbing trends among the sexes.  I don't think any educated person can deny it.  The fact a man and a woman in the same job will have severe pay discrepancy, for example.

I don't deny the media's role in shaping people, either.  For example, most girls I know that grew up and LOVE Disney cartoons and still have a strong love for Disney?  They're all just... I don't know how to describe them other than "frivolous."
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Surgoshan on 28 Mar 2008, 12:41
I've a good friend in med school, getting married in a month, a single mother before that, with a tattoo of Tinkerbell.  Why?  Because she grew up loving Peter Pan.  The book because her grandmother read it to her, but also the Disney movie.  I know her full name, but she was introduced to me as Tink and always will be.  Frivolous she's not, though.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: RobbieOC on 28 Mar 2008, 13:05
Thats not just a female thing though... hollywood always casts attractive people; men as well as women. Why do you think they cast Nathan Fillion as Mal? *Girly licking of lips* Also, have you SEEN the guns on Alan Tudyk? The entire casting of Buffy is the same thing... Spike and Angel are both gorgeous. The whole casting "hot" females is a matter of opinion as well, who is to say who's hot?

I wasn't trying to exclude males, it just wasn't part of my point. But you're right. Men can be objectified also.

And, I suppose hot is a matter of opinion, but I have a hard time believing there are a lot of people out there who wouldn't say these women aren't at least nice to look at. It's not a Joss thing, either. It's a Hollywood thing. Even when a character is supposed to be unattractive in movies, they often get attractive actors to play the part and just give them makeup or an unseemly mole or something.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Alex C on 28 Mar 2008, 14:23
It's self-reinforcing too. Part of the reason I never tried getting into acting or anything is because I suspect that as a 5'8" racial mutt I've got vaguely ethnic sidekick or small time character actor written all over me-- and that's if things go well. You need a lot of determination and a fair bit of luck and good looks to get steady work in that field and everyone knows it. It takes a special kind of determination to really stick with that profession if you're merely typical. ;)
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Surgoshan on 28 Mar 2008, 14:34
Even when a character is supposed to be unattractive in movies, they often get attractive actors to play the part and just give them makeup or an unseemly mole or something.


If I ever make a movie, I'm going to get nothing but gorgeous women for all the roles and make them wear signs like "short, bald guy" or "really ugly, stop lusting".
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: RobbieOC on 28 Mar 2008, 15:16
And I would pay money to watch it, because I wouldn't know any better.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: KharBevNor on 28 Mar 2008, 17:09
There are far worse, and more well known, things to analyse in sci-fi from a feminist perspective than Firefly. Try Asimov sometime...
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: LordNagash on 28 Mar 2008, 17:50
I thought of Samus too, but then remembered Fusion retconning the series so that she always took orders from Adam. Thank you, shitty game for continuing to ruin the series in some small way.

Well, someone did not get the memo then, because the games that came out after fusion still have no mention of Adam. Still, barring fusion Samus is a strong independant character that the government basically begs to save their asses all the time.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Jimmy the Squid on 28 Mar 2008, 19:17
But according to this particular feminist, Samus would be just as bad a role model as Zoe because the only way she is empowered is by engaging in violence which is apparently a male dominion if I'm reading Alecto's post correctly. I always understood the feminist movement to be about equality, which to my mind at least says that women should be able to be strong and violent just like men and be respected for it, just like men.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: thatryanguy on 28 Mar 2008, 20:08
What irks me about people like this is that they take offense to males, no matter what capacity they're shown in. Mal was a higher rank in the military, and owned the ship that Zoe decided to serve him on. It's not by any consideration as to Why Mal was a higher rank, or why Zoe chose to serve him on his ship, but the fact Alone that Mal was a higher rank, and owned a ship that a Zoe served him on.

Feminists like her are the biggest hypocrites. They cry for equality, by vehemently protesting any situation whatsoever, fact or fiction, where the female isn't the one in absolute power.

Fortunately, noone but other feminists who hate men with the same venomous passion will ever take people like her seriously. I do think it would be interesting however to write a comic or movie based on the idea where people like her got control of the world, and the results that could potentially have on society.

I mean, first and foremost, everyone would die in a generation, as every male on the planet would have been castrated immediately =P
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Surgoshan on 28 Mar 2008, 20:08
...can i play short bald guy?

Only if you don't mind a very tasteful nude scene with "vapid gum-chewer".
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: jimbunny on 28 Mar 2008, 20:24
But according to this particular feminist, Samus would be just as bad a role model as Zoe because the only way she is empowered is by engaging in violence which is apparently a male dominion if I'm reading Alecto's post correctly. I always understood the feminist movement to be about equality, which to my mind at least says that women should be able to be strong and violent just like men and be respected for it, just like men.

But think about the culture of respect that gives rise to these kinds of heroes. If we were to adopt rationality over physical force (which, even mediated by technology as we are, will - on average biologically and therefore almost always psychologically - favor men) as the basis for respect ... well but then our entertainment would not be so entertaining. Because we will instinctively always find security - which leads to looking up to people who can provide security - in physicality. We're animals, in that way. It's not very fair of us males, then, to claim that 'equality' means allowing females 'up' into our realm of physicality. It doesn't work that way naturally, so to actually be equal in that respect requires either: a) exceptional effort (above average female physicality to average male physicality), which seems unfair; or b) mediation, usually through technology, which seems illegitimate, as well as unstable.

Of course physicality isn't the only area of dispute in the discussion of gender (in)equality. But it is a very influential one, one that gives rise to many if not most of the other issues. I think it's often underestimated by males, too, because the discussion, as it is often framed, doesn't oblige us to do anything, other than to hypothetically extend our offer of acceptance to females, who want (we think) to join us. As opposed to anything that might happen the other way around.

Just goes to show what a significant challenge there is for feminist cultural criticism.

Also, thatryanguy, 1) the fact of the matter is that they are noting the instance of male authority that points to the generality of male authority (or the general lack of female authority), and 2) I have a difficult time not reading your name as "that aryan guy." Just lettin' you know.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Ozymandias on 28 Mar 2008, 20:29
Actually, I agree with the idea that there should be more fiction and fact with women in ultimate power because we DO live in a patriarchal society and the recurrence of the male leader in fiction reflects this. If there were such a thing as genuine equality in our society, radical feminists would be relegated to a more extremist section of our society, looked upon in much the same way as white supremacists because their viewpoints would be more clearly outside of what society needs. As it is, they represent a force towards the shift that society needs and, while their end goal is much too extreme, their direction is still ideal, so they aren't as maligned as they should be.

Also, I take umbrage with Khar's implication of Asimov. The dude can barely write humans, it's unfair to take him to task for his writing of women.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Jimmy the Squid on 28 Mar 2008, 20:33
Jimbunny, if you could stop making the rest of us look bad by being really insightful and such a generally good poster that would just be swell.

Yeah ok my point was not great and badly made but could anyone see where I was going with it? I see the feminist movement as seeking equality (which does not yet exist and that fact is lamentable) rather than putting one gender over another. Misandry is not the constructive answer to misogyny. Just sayin'.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: jimbunny on 28 Mar 2008, 20:44
That's cool; it's just that comments lightly made towards gender issues tend, I feel, to expose ingrained ways of thinking in society that are actually much more fundamental - and MUCH harder to root out, because they're not based on any individual's stated beliefs.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Jimmy the Squid on 28 Mar 2008, 20:48
No I totally get that. The problem is I usually don't come into the movies forum with my "critical thinking about sociology" hat on. I usually just have my "Hey, I liked Mortal Kombat/AVP1&2/Hulk" hat on. This is usually the kind of thing I have to sit and think about for a few minutes before I can formulate a rational response and that's hard for me to do if I'm sitting here in my Mr Grumpy underpants.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: idiolect on 28 Mar 2008, 21:22
MUCH harder to root out, because they're not based on any individual's stated beliefs.

Wow, yes, that. 
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Nodaisho on 29 Mar 2008, 03:28
Sally Shears/Molly Millions from Gibson's early work.  That girl did not take shit from anybody and she would (quite literally) cut you if you tried anything wise on her.

The livejournaling lunatic would disagree, since Molly was a prostitute for the money for her surgeries. I would ask her if she would be willing to tell a real life Molly that she was a horrible person for betraying womankind, but I doubt she would approve that comment.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Inlander on 29 Mar 2008, 04:15
Reading the criticism of the "duct tape her mouth and throw her in the hold" scene in that blog post, it strikes me that the scene could only be deemed as woman-hating if you're of the opinion that a person's gender is the single most important defining characteristic of that person. (Of course, it seems likely that the writer of the blog probably does feel that way, at least when it comes to women). It's very easy to view that scene as an example of suggested violence against a woman, and to be appalled by it because of that - but such a response necessitates a specific reading of the scene which I think is flawed. The writer of the blog has read the scene as "Don't you want to duct tape that woman's mouth and throw that woman in the hold", whereas I think the correct reading is "Don't you want to duct tape that individual's mouth and throw that individual in the hold." By which I mean, Mals' comment wasn't directed against Kaylee's womanhood, but rather against her personality. As I've said on this forum before, I find the notion that you can reduce 6 billion + people into two clearly distinct types, "man" and "woman", highly dubious. Any direct interaction with any specific person must surely rely first and foremost on his or her personality rather than his or her gender (indeed, to generalise about somebody because of his or her gender, whether you're trying to be positive about it or not, is in a way to reduce them, because it implies that they are merely the product of a single biological circumstance and essentially indistinguishable from billions of others, rather than a complex and unique individual). Of course with this interpretation it's still possible to take offence to the scene under discussion on the grounds that it suggests rather extreme violence against a fellow human, but as was pointed out earlier, I don't think Mal's comment is meant to be taken literally but rather as good-natured joshing between crew-mates.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: ForteBass on 29 Mar 2008, 10:00
Go to church some time.  Or a political rally.

Way to make sweeping generalizations. Very nice.

Yes, admiring natural beauty is wrong everyone! When you're out appreciating forests or sunsets or beaches you're committing leering, and that's just plain lude.

The word is "lewd."

Also, why spend so much time on one nut job?
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: bryanthelion on 29 Mar 2008, 10:53
She keeps on thinking that Mal is supposed to be the bearer of Whedon's ideals.

I keep thinking, "Maybe Whedon WANTED Mal to be a douche-bag."
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Uber Ritter on 29 Mar 2008, 12:02
It is true that Mal doesn't seem to form a romantic attachment to a woman that does not have sex for money.  I'm just saying.  Not that Mal is necessarily Whedon's masculine ideal (perhaps one archetype among several). 

Seriously my radical feminist friend spends enough time ranting about how much she hates a lot of 'feminist' blogging on the internet to convince me that this is not a joke.  In this regard feminism is, I think, as vulnerable to projecting its a priori ideals on a complicated world as much as any other ideology (I could cite other examples, but this would bring us into politics proper).  Just last night my friend was ranting about how patronizing it is to say "all X is a manifestation of rape," since it effectively deprives the women in question (prostitutes, for instance) of any agency of their own as well as any judgment, since it says that their thought that they have a choice in the matter (if they do think so, of course) is some sort of delusion.  Not that one can't argue against prostitution on feminist grounds from a different angle, rather that this particular line of reasoning doesn't respect the humanity (agency, rationality) of people that are convinced they are being rational and free.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: KharBevNor on 29 Mar 2008, 13:24
Also, I take umbrage with Khar's implication of Asimov. The dude can barely write humans, it's unfair to take him to task for his writing of women.

I wouldn't mind so much if he had, you know,

actually written any women.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Ozymandias on 29 Mar 2008, 13:47
Dr. Calvin?
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: a pack of wolves on 29 Mar 2008, 17:21
Seriously my radical feminist friend spends enough time ranting about how much she hates a lot of 'feminist' blogging on the internet to convince me that this is not a joke.  In this regard feminism is, I think, as vulnerable to projecting its a priori ideals on a complicated world as much as any other ideology (I could cite other examples, but this would bring us into politics proper).  Just last night my friend was ranting about how patronizing it is to say "all X is a manifestation of rape," since it effectively deprives the women in question (prostitutes, for instance) of any agency of their own as well as any judgment, since it says that their thought that they have a choice in the matter (if they do think so, of course) is some sort of delusion.  Not that one can't argue against prostitution on feminist grounds from a different angle, rather that this particular line of reasoning doesn't respect the humanity (agency, rationality) of people that are convinced they are being rational and free.

I've had enough contact with the lunatic fringe of radical feminism to know this isn't a joke as well, unfortunately. Your friend is also completely right about the lack of agency this strand of feminism gives to women. This also has the unfortunate effect of putting a vast amount of women off feminism, since they encounter this kind of feminism and think that that's what feminism is. The only people this essay and the theories surrounding it really admit to completely be people are men, women become reduced to nothing but perpetual victims which I find to be an incredibly anti-feminist line of thinking. It's depressing since it's such a tiny minority of feminist thinking but because it's the most shocking and so many people now want to disassociate themselves with the term due to it, it becomes very easy for it to be seen as much more important and representative than it actually is.

Also, somebody badly needs to get this woman a copy of The Death Of The Author.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: KharBevNor on 29 Mar 2008, 18:37
Okay, I am being facetious. Asimovs works did improve significantly in that regard over his lifetime. In 'Foundation' the 50,000 year into the future galactic empire is entirely ruled by middle-aged, pipe-smoking white men. 
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Nodaisho on 29 Mar 2008, 20:26
She keeps on thinking that Mal is supposed to be the bearer of Whedon's ideals.

I keep thinking, "Maybe Whedon WANTED Mal to be a douche-bag."
I do remember hearing that he said that most of what came out of mal's mouth, he disagreed with.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Uber Ritter on 29 Mar 2008, 21:55
A pack of wolves--what can I say?  'Word?'
Feminism is one of those things I should aim to get more than casually acquainted with after I'm done reading dead white men.

Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Surgoshan on 29 Mar 2008, 22:19
Tasteful means the camera will only show from the waist up, and your sign should cover your nibblies.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: muteKi on 30 Mar 2008, 00:33
Yes, admiring natural beauty is wrong everyone! When you're out appreciating forests or sunsets or beaches you're committing leering, and that's just plain lude.

The word is "lewd."

Also, why spend so much time on one nut job?


1. I know that, but that was how it was spelled in the comment that I had quoted.

2. Technically, that comment I quoted in said post was from someone else entirely, but to answer your question: because it can be pretty funny.


I myself identify as masculinist, for what it's worth.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: a pack of wolves on 30 Mar 2008, 06:18
I have to ask, what does masculinist mean for you? Is that to do with the idea that society has somehow become matriarchal, or wanting a promotion of better understanding of masculinity and the male identity, or a position of wanting equality between genders but not wanting to use the term feminist since it might be seen as an appropriation of something that should only be claimed by women?

A pack of wolves--what can I say?  'Word?'
Feminism is one of those things I should aim to get more than casually acquainted with after I'm done reading dead white men.

Same here, although it's dead black women for me right now an English degree makes the old white dudes my bread and butter. I'd most particularly like to know more about how feminism deals with the fact that gender isn't the binary that it's normally constructed to be. One of the the many problems I have with essays like this one is that they reduce things to men and women which silences all of those people who are both, neither or some blend of the two. There isn't a clear cut division between the sexes, that's just something we've created.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Narr on 30 Mar 2008, 14:15
Well, I have to disagree to an extent.  There IS an inherent difference between men and women.  It's just not AS GREAT as history would have you think.  It's up to us as educated people to get men and women closer on an intellectual and societal level.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: a pack of wolves on 30 Mar 2008, 14:19
But what is it, and where does that position all the people who are trans or intersex?
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: SonofZ3 on 30 Mar 2008, 15:25
I have to ask, what does masculinist mean for you? Is that to do with the idea that society has somehow become matriarchal, or wanting a promotion of better understanding of masculinity and the male identity, or a position of wanting equality between genders but not wanting to use the term feminist since it might be seen as an appropriation of something that should only be claimed by women?

I identify as a masculinist, and I feel that the concept is one of promoting gender equality. Masculinists seek to dispell the bias in the legal system and social mores that teach the idea that violence between men or done to men is somehow less serious or even humorous, while the same act done to a woman by a man is viewed as many times worse. Masculinists disagree with the "myth of innocence" often associated with women where a woman accusing a man is often automatically believed simply because she is a woman, resulting in a legal system where men are often presumed guilty whenever a female accuser is involved They feel that men are not viewed as a victims of sexual assault, but only perpetrators. Mostly, we just say that there are gender roles within our society that are bad for men, and we want to see those changed and corrected. Unfortunately masulinists are often viewed as "anti-femisists" or even misogonysts, neither of which are the case.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: a pack of wolves on 30 Mar 2008, 15:42
I think the reason masculinist gets that representation is for much the same reason feminism ends up getting a skewed representation. I must admit the only time I've ever come across people using that term to describe themselves previously they've been very misogynist and anti-feminist so it's interesting to see an alternative use of the word. Unfortunately these people are the most attention-grabbing as opposed to someone just arguing for equality.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: SonofZ3 on 30 Mar 2008, 15:53
Its too bad asshats so often give perfectly respectable causes a bad face =/ Guys who are just misogonysts should admit it and not try to hide behind a more PC name. It seems that more and more (at least here in America) any pro-______ stand is immediately skewed into an anti-______ (opposite of first blank) perspective by the media and other individuals. The perfect example I can think of is race, any time a group of the same cultural identiy gets together to celebrate that it gets viewed as someone oppressing other cultures. I don't know why America has a such a preocupation with negativity, fostering this concept of everyone/group either being a victim, or victimism someone/thing. Sorry, rambled a bit there.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Aminal on 30 Mar 2008, 17:04
Because we want to fight another Revolutionary War and the British won't play with us anymore.  We love overthrowing oppressors!
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: idiolect on 30 Mar 2008, 17:44
I actually agree with everything SonofZ said, and would promote similar things, except for that "myth of innocence" bit -- that stuff makes me nervous.  You have to realize that most of the time when people say "female accuser" they mean "alleged rape victim," and that most rapes do not even get as far as being reported let alone actually prosecuted -- so I'd say that if someone actually has a good enough case to get over the institutional bias running against them to the point of getting a trial, we'd probably better listen to them.  I'm not saying that a mere accusation should be enough to lock someone up, just that an accusation of rape SHOULD be taken very seriously and SHOULD be taken to trial to let the accounts of what happened and evidence speak for themselves.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: SonofZ3 on 30 Mar 2008, 18:03
I agree with what you're saying with regards to rape, but the idea of the myth of innocence applies to almost any crime. The idea is that, for example, if two men are standing there, a police officer walks by and one says "hey, that guy just hit me and took my mp3 player!" the officer will look into it, but regard neither party as more truthful, while a woman accusing a guy of that same crime would be immediately believed because of her gender. Or, one that I've seen happen personally: A guy I know, when he goes to the bar, puts his money on the bar in front of him with his car keys and stays there until he leaves for the night. I was sitting on his left, a young woman was on his right. The bar was packed. The young woman ordered a drink, the bartender brought the drink but took one of my friends 10's to pay for it. When he came back with the change and put it in front of the girl my friend told the bartender what happened, who looked at the young woman and said "Wasn't that your ten?" she said "yeah". My friend got angry, and we got kicked out of the bar. The bartender (to my knowledge) had no reason to assume my friend was lying, but believed what she said, in my opinion because she was a young woman and my friend wasn't. Maybe the two knew each other and scammed people like that often, I don't know.

when it comes to sexual assault, masculinists want to see cases of sexual assault reported by men taken equally as seriously as women. If a man reports having gotten drunk and sexually assaulted most people would laugh, or even believe that men cannot be assulted sexually by women. Men being sexually assaulted, especially in prison, is a common joke. We would like the legal system to acknowledge that sexual assault against men is real, and not funny, and should be taken seriously.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: a pack of wolves on 30 Mar 2008, 18:17
The bartender had a very good reason to believe the woman instead of your friend regardless of gender, which is that if he believes her then he didn't make a mistake and kicking the two of you out is probably the simplest option from his point of view. Also, what evidence do you have for police officers automatically believing women over men? Personally I've heard more anecdotal evidence of the opposite.

I agree with you about the seriousness of all sexual assault though, regardless of the genders of those involved.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: camelpimp on 30 Mar 2008, 18:19
I think, in general, sexual assault needs to be taken more seriously. "Hey, here's another comic that exploits sexual assault as a comedic device." (That was... Shortpacked! I believe)
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: idiolect on 30 Mar 2008, 21:12
Again, I agree about sexual assault being taken more seriously etc etc etc, but it would be really awesome if this and other stuff I've seen called "masculinist" made more of an effort to serious positive activism and less of this weird "the girls get treated all special and it's not fair" stuff.

I'd argue that in the situations where the girls do get treated all special, as it were, it's a function of the enforcing of certain gender roles -- e.g. say the bartender knew, and was letting her get away with stuff because he wanted to get laid and now she'd feel a little indebted to him and thus more likely to "do him a favor" or some such -- which is ultimately not actually a benifit to women, even though it might've gotten one of them a few bucks this one time.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: KvP on 30 Mar 2008, 22:12
I think, in general, sexual assault needs to be taken more seriously. "Hey, here's another comic that exploits sexual assault as a comedic device." (That was... Shortpacked! I believe)
Look out for the Bitstrips thread!
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Switchblade on 31 Mar 2008, 06:55
The thing that got to me was the number of people who responded with things like (and this is an actual quote) "Hi. I found your essay insightful and very well researched." and agreed with her.

Seriously, this isn't feminism - this is misandry of the worst kind. I'M a feminist, in the classical sense - I believe that women and men should receive equal treatment in all things. I wouldn't try to hold Whedon up as a shining example of feminism in the mainstream media, but he's certainly better than average when it comes to the equal treatment of both genders - they're both glamourised equally.

Quote
The next scene we meet Kaylee, the ship’s mechanic. <- Lookee, lookee, feminist empowerment. In this scene Mal and Jayne are stowing away the cargo they just stole. Kaylee is chatting to them, happily. Jayne asks Mal to get Kaylee to stop being so cheerful. Mal replies, “Sometimes you just wanna duct tape her mouth and dump her in the hold for a month.” Yes, that is an exact quote, “Sometimes you just wanna DUCT TAPE HER MOUTH and DUMP HER IN THE HOLD FOR A MONTH.” Kaylee responds by grinning and giving Mal a kiss on the cheek and saying, “I love my Captain.”

It's as if this person has never heard of "jokes". A halfway-rational person watching that scene would immediately recognize from Mal's tone of voice and expression that he is in no way serious about that statement and was just poking fun at his friend - as friends do.

the whole "article" from start to finish betrays a massive prejudice on it's writer's part. She really ought to evaluate her own biases before accusing other people of sexism.

In other news, this person is a lunatic who can and should be ignored. She makes those of us who are genuinely interested in the fair and even-handed treatment of both genders look bad.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Lines on 31 Mar 2008, 10:18
BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Quote
This is a joke, right?
Quote
Unfortunately no. Joss Whedon did really write and direct the misogynist, racist trash Firefly. I wish that I had made up all of the info in this post but I'm sorry to say that Joss Whedon's Firefly was actually inflicted upon millions of innocent women.

Also her ideas on rape are utterly ridiculous. I am so glad someone called her out on it and the comment wasn't deleted, which from the subcomments it appears alecto had been doing for some time. I want to comment, but I need to make it sound like more than me just being pissed off that her post is both ridiculous and insulting, considering I consider myself a feminist.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Switchblade on 31 Mar 2008, 10:55
I like this response:

Quote
Every plot of which I can conceive can be construed as hateful to women from the perspective of your blog post:

"Pretty girls fight evil and save the day." -> "Why do female heroes have to be reduced to eye candy?"

"Ugly lesbians fight evil and save the day." -> "Whedon has created his female heroes as carictures of everything men find hateful, and through that correlates the image of strong, heroic women with what men find hateful."

"Neutral-looking women of no apparent sexual orientation fight evil and save the day." -> "The female leads are all stripped of their female characteristics and fade into the scenery, essentially putting them into the kabuki role of female servitude in which they should be neither seen nor heard."

"No women are in the show at all." -> "Buffy presents a world in which women have been wiped out, and the guys run around wisecracking and fighting evil and having a grand old time. They are winking at genocide."

. . . do you see where I'm coming from? As much as I love counter-intuitive thinking, I wonder if your admitted biases have put you in a position where everything is anti-feminist, nothing is pro-feminist, and anti-women subplots can be found lurking behind every bush.

Lurking behind every bush HURR HURR HURR

Quote
Yes, I plan to. I found Objects in Space to be horrifically racist. I can't believe that Joss was allowed to air a show that had such a terrible portrayal of Black men. I also found the portrayal of the Black man in the movie Serenity to be pretty horrifying too.

One of her subsequent comments. Remind me where the racism was in that particular episode? They were being stalked and held hostage by an amoral bounty hunter who just happened to be black. I certainly didn't get any kind of a "he's a horrible person because he's black" vibe off it. There are plenty of characters from all ethnicities in the series, and none of them were presented as being bad people purely because of their genetic origin. Hell, two of the wisest, noblest and most well-adjusted characters in the entire show were Book and Zoe.

Even the Agent from the movie was not an actively bad person - he was just ruthlessly devoted to a cause that he believed to be honourable and Good.

I have to disagree with the title of this thread: this blog entry isn't hilarious - it's scary.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Narr on 31 Mar 2008, 11:09
I'm surprised she hadn't deleted that response because it's more insightful than any of her bollix.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Statik on 31 Mar 2008, 12:30
Honestly, its no more radical than the people who willfully believe that the earth is flat, or that god created the earth some 10k years ago, or evolution isnt real (despite a large majority having house pets who owe their entire looks to forced evolution)

In reference to the psycho ranters thing about Joss, whatever, she is blowing things out of context because she is looking through a flawed lens.  We can sit here and pick apart her arguments one by one, because we are being fairly rational human beings.  She is obviously not rational.

I find this far more disturbing.

Quote from: Crazy Feminist
Let me just say now that I have never personally known of a healthy relationship between a white man and a woman of colour.  (More crap justifying her position why white guys shouldnt be with "coloured" girls)

It seems like she basically says (in an underhanded mean sort of way) that black women shouldnt date white men, because white guys only want them for their "exoticness"  (Side note:  http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=822 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=822)).  I forget which logical fallacy that is, when you havent seen it, therefore it doesnt exist.

This person isnt worth the brain cells neccessary to respond to her distorted logic.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Lines on 31 Mar 2008, 18:02
Damn it, can't put up a comment because I'm not her friend. (Like I'd want to be...  :roll:) But this is what I would have said:

Quote
Someone linked this to me and I have to say I think your entire post and your behavior in your comments is ridiculous. I am a feminist and from what you're saying I think a) you are taking this show WAY to seriously and have no sense of humor and b) you really need to rethink what is rape and how you come off as racist.

Zoe calls Mal "sir" because he was her commander in the war and later he was her captain. She is showing him respect, not placing herself beneath him. She is the strongest out of the four main females and definitely asserts herself when she disagrees with Mal. And seriously, the girl kicks major ass. She is in no way the female stereotype. Also, where you said that a black woman can't have a successful relationship with a white man is incredibly racist and I am very offended by this. One of my cousins married a black woman and they are happily married and have two kids.

Kaylee is very cute and happy in personality, but the girl knows her mechanics. She's very intelligent when it comes to engines and the like, but still retains a very feminine side, which is shown through her admiration of the pink dress. That line about Jayne and Mal getting annoyed with her being chipper was obviously a joke. Have you ever had an older brother or friend who was annoyed with bubbly girls? Obviously not. You obviously have a lame sense of humor, too.

River, even though she is pretty messed up because of what happened to her, is also a strong character, especially so in the movie when she's portrayed as a killing machine.

Inara, you have to realize, picked her profession by CHOICE. Her character went through training for years and belongs to a guild of companions. She is allowed to pick and choose who she wants to be with and who she doesn't. What she does is also more about the ritual and ceremony than it is about the sex. I mean, her specialty is foot massage. Saying that the men she CHOOSES are raping her is silly. Rape is a forced, violent act upon women and though I haven't been raped myself, I know people who have and I can't believe you consider the two to be the same. It's both ignorant and offensive to those who have experienced rape.

And saying shit about Whedon and you think he treats his wife is both stupid and completely uncalled for. You don't know these people. You aren't in their bedroom when they have sex. You know absolutely nothing about their personal lives. Have you ever met a man who beats his wife? No? Because if you want to rewind my life about 20 years and meet my dad I'm sure he'd loooove to give you a demonstration by smashing in your windshield while your baby was in the front seat with you.

If this is a tl;dr, here's the basics: I think your post is ridiculous and misinformed, I think you have WAY too much time on your hands and need to get a life, and I think you should reconsider posting about things you don't know about, i.e. rape, interracial relationships, and Whedon's life. I honestly don't know how or why so many people have agreed with you, because I think this whole thing is stupid and probably written to either purposely piss people off or start stupid internet rumors that don't hold their weight whatsoever.

I wanted so much to post that.  :-(
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Switchblade on 01 Apr 2008, 04:24
I think we already know why there are so many comments agreeing with her - because she refuses to allow any (or many) others to be posted.

The whole comments section is edited to suit her own perverse world-view, and the substantial majority who aren't agreeing with her simply cannot make their voices heard in the context of that blog - she won't allow it.

All of which means that she's far too firmly set in her opinion to be swayed, even if the counter-opinion could even be presented. And if she is willing to ignore a LOT of evidence contrary to her opinion, I'm afraid that your comment, well-written though it is, wouldn't really do the job.

EDIT: I've been considering posting this for a while. The only reason I haven't yet is that it's somewhat NSFW, so you have been warned.

This is the blog of a nude model called Candy, and it's called "Feminism Without Clothes" (http://candyposes.com/blog.html/).

This is an example of REAL feminism - reasoning, sensible thought and opinion backed up by first-hand experience and a healthy dose of common sense. I have a lot of respect for Candy's opinion, which is why I thought I'd share it.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: LordNagash on 01 Apr 2008, 08:18
I was going to make that same point about posting comments trying to reason with the author. She is clearly not going to change her mind, no matter what you write.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Lines on 01 Apr 2008, 11:03
I knew that when she both deleted comments and only responded to those that agreed with her.
Title: Re: The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon
Post by: Nodaisho on 01 Apr 2008, 20:00
@Switchblade: That blog does seem to be much healthier-minded, but I didn't read much, as the front page post was something I completely disagreed with (pro-bondage, anti-gun). I am pro-do-whatever-you-want-as-long-as-you-don't-hurt-anyone, anti-people-stick-their-noses-in-my-goddamn-business. My philosophy is somewhat less concise than hers, I suppose, but I prefer it anyway.