THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)
Fun Stuff => CHATTER => Topic started by: Trollstormur on 17 Jul 2008, 09:14
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FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cristina-page/hhs-moves-to-define-contr_b_112887.html)
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You know it shouldn't be surprising, but it's still surprising. And infuriating.
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Personally, I think becoming fat and ugly should be considered contraception, and thus by extension abortion.
What I'm getting at is that pro-lifers should start picketing McDonald's.
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Well, this is just sickening.
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This Just In!: The American Public Knows More About Baby-Makin' Than the Experts!
More at eleven.
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Jesus Fucking Christ.
And abortion as terminating a pregnancy. If you are using contraceptives you don't get pregnant. How the hell can that be considered an abortion?
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Masturbation is killing potential babies.
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Well, just for dudes I would imagine. So I guess ladies are safe on that one.
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As much as I disagree with this HHS initiative and the ideology behind it, the Huffington Post blog has once again willfully exaggerated a bad idea to make it seem much worse. This LA Times article (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/presidentbush/2008/07/abortion-reprod.html) gives a much more nuanced and accurate analysis of what appears to be a draft regulation on the part of the HHS.
(1) This is a draft regulation that was probably intentionally leaked to gauge public outrage should the regulation actually be passed. So public outrage across the US, especially in states where Republican incumbents are facing strong Democratic challengers would be a very good thing.
(2) The regulation would forbid federal funds to organizations that did not promise not to fire workers who refused to provide certain contraceptives which are thought to end pregnancy after fertilization of the egg but before implantation of the embryo. Got that? No? Me neither. But this is not about a bunch of fundies saying "No more condoms". It's a little more subtle than that.
I find the HHS initiative abhorrent, I don't think that blogs like this one do justice to those who would defend reproductive choice. Just look at the posts in this thread that completely miss the fucking point. If all this outrage were guided by an intelligent understanding of the issues...
P.S. *Misconception*, heh heh
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Read the book; sing the song. Altogether now:
"Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood."
But the proposal is actually closer to the recent UK case in which someone was explicitly allowed by a court not to do their job when they felt it conflicted with their religious views (in this case, holding a civil partnership ceremony - not a religious marriage, note - to recognise a same-sex relationship).
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You are killing babies when you are having a good time.
This is all ridiculous. Seriously. Comic relief, anyone? Onan's death by sex was supposed to be a tension-breaker inbetween all the death in the Bible. People who died because they had sex was like the funniest thing ever back in the day.
What was it Bill Hicks said? "I have wiped civilizations off my chest with an old gym sock!"
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P.S. *Misconception*, heh heh
This joke has been made a number of times.
I no longer find it funny.
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Just look at the posts in this thread that completely miss the fucking point.
huh? what point
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I don't think anyone's missed the point at all. The point is that, if a hospital receives federal grants it can't fire someone for denying requested and necessary treatment to a woman. Limiting access to the pill is a big deal. Condoms won't cut it in all situations. A condom requires the active knowledge and proper participation of the man involved. The birth control pill has been the single most important development in the ability of women to control their own sex lives. It remains the best option for a woman to choose not to have a child without needing the permission or cooperation of anyone else beside their doctor. The pill represents, in many ways, the end of the idea that a woman's body is the property of the man she's with. It represents resistance to patriarchy.
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Yes, that is the point. You said it much better than I could have. Am I imagining a distinction between what you just said and what is in the Huffington Post blog? If I am, I apologize.
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Looking at some of the other articles linked on the right side, I at first assumed something groan-inducing when I saw this title:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andy-borowitz/obama-releases-list-of-ap_b_112837.html
However, I quickly realized the article is a joke, and in fact the jokes within it are hilarious:
"A horse walks into a bar. The bartender says, "Why the long face?" Barack Obama replies, "His jockey just lost his health insurance, which should be the right of all Americans.""
lololol
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I really enjoyed this NYT article (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/15/us/politics/15humor.html?_r=1&sq=obama%20jon%20stewart&st=cse&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&scp=1&adxnnlx=1216317725-ucSnPLo+mn5ErNdVjjBCVg) about how (white) late night hosts who are not Colbert are finding it difficult to draw laughs about Obama. There's a great Colbert quote in there about the recent controversial New Yorker cover. His persona makes his out of character comments seem super insightful.
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They did a follow-up (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/16/opinion/16dowd.html?em&ex=1216440000&en=4cc4b28f35c01242&ei=5087%0A) that's also pretty entertaining.
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So, when you guys elect Obama all this shit is going to stop, right guys? Right?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andy-borowitz/obama-releases-list-of-ap_b_112837.html
Gold.
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It's shit like this that makes me want to move to France. Or Britain. Basically a semi-post-religious country where insane evangelicals don't form policy on health care issues.
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Uchhh. I am so fucking sick of the pseudo-politics that the assholes who blindly embrace a religion that they don't even understand adore so much.
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Or Britain.
You don't know how much we discuss leaving this country....
We have a control-freak government which doesn't bother pretending it's about religion. We are watched by more cameras per head of population than any other country in the world.
But the situation reminds me of Winston Churchill's remark that democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others. Ah well.
Paul
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I for one enjoyed the McCain Ape Rape article (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/15/sources-recall-mccains-jo_n_112955.html)
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Talking on my other forum (it's a chemistry forum but it's ridiculously anti-what's been going on) I've learnt that the anti-privacy and anti-freedom movement is a global pandemic, and America's not even the worst offender--yet, at least.
But Americans seem to be the ones who put the most false credence in other nations.
Man, I am unnervingly close to becoming a misanthropic jerk.
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I don't understand people who say "oh god, I'm moving out of this country" instead of "oh god, me and my non-idiotic friends are gonna try to do something about these morons shitting up our country"
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fighting the system is hard. it's easier to just move somewhere else with a different system to complain about.
*whine whine whine*
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We were talking about stuff one night at the bar, so I decided to raise a toast to space travel and being on the first boat out of here. My toast was refused on reasonable grounds.
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I would love to go to space. That would be the coolest thing ever, just hangin' out in the space station and lookin' at earth.
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a couple of days ago I was reading an article about the possibilities of sex in space (yahoo, if you were wondering). I couldn't find the exact one, but this is basically the same thing: http://www.slate.com/id/2159265/
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Hooray for flying wildly off-topic!
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well we WERE talking about space :lol:
And it is happier than talking about loss of human rights :x
Observe the smilies for comparison
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Those really were a series of amazing conversational jumps. Each post was just related enough to the previous to seem sensible, and yet still as large a leap as possible away from the topic of the thread. It's like a perfectly choreographed dance.
Seriously, the more I reflect on it the more beautiful it becomes.
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v12/sademie/Thread-Offtopic-Derailed.jpg)
i swear to god i'll lock and fag up this thread.
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I don't understand people who say "oh god, I'm moving out of this country" instead of "oh god, me and my non-idiotic friends are gonna try to do something about these morons shitting up our country"
Ha. Your voting system is so unbelievably fucked up I don't blame people... plus the idea of living in a place with a health system like the US kind of makes me want to run screaming from the room. Hell, I'm loathe to even visit the US the politics are so scary - I can hardly blame people for wanting to leave someone they didn't choose to be born.
In NZ the morning after pill is OTC. When my partner's ex visited him in the US and needed it she had to go to the doctor and get a fucking internal exam to get it. Fuck that. Fuck that fuck that fuck that
Through a story about a man that sexed up his brother's wife, but pulled out, and thus angered Invisible Man, written in a several thousand year old book, insane people can deduct that every single fuck should lead to a baby. It's like they watched Monty Python and thought "I like the looks of that! A bright future for our prospering nation!"
I mean I do not usually have a problem with religious people at all but Holy Dickshitting Christ on a Crutch.
Loving that post lol
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chill out guys. the us has a lot of problems but all countries have problems. it's a lot easier to not see them when you are not living there. all you can do is maybe move to a place where you can bitch about different problems than your old country had.
so... birth control! it is pretty awesome ans useful! i hope they don't try and take it away because then that would just mean a lot more abortions and that would just be silly.
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No, it would mean a revolution.
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I don't understand people who say "oh god, I'm moving out of this country" instead of "oh god, me and my non-idiotic friends are gonna try to do something about these morons shitting up our country"
Ha. Your voting system is so unbelievably fucked up I don't blame people...
Um, yeah Australia has such a simple system when to compared to the US'
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Ha. Your voting system is so unbelievably fucked up I don't blame people... plus the idea of living in a place with a health system like the US kind of makes me want to run screaming from the room. Hell, I'm loathe to even visit the US the politics are so scary - I can hardly blame people for wanting to leave someone they didn't choose to be born.
In NZ the morning after pill is OTC. When my partner's ex visited him in the US and needed it she had to go to the doctor and get a fucking internal exam to get it. Fuck that. Fuck that fuck that fuck that
Yeah, the Electoral College is a little screwy *cough*. The health care system really isn't that bad, though. In certain situations it's horrible, but if you, say, had your arm chopped off in some freak accident you could be worked on overnight without any reference to your health care. It's pretty weird, because at the same time somebody could be dying slowly of something and be expected to come up with thirty grand to save their lives. I guess Americans just like urgency. However in America there is barely a wait time for any medical treatment, as opposed to Canada where "Studies by the Commonwealth Fund found that 57% of Canadians reported waiting 4 weeks or more to see a specialist; 24% of Canadians waited 4 hours or more in the emergency room.".
I think that health care should be improved, of course, but I don't think the solution is to make the same mistakes that other people are making.
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It's mostly a load of crap people who say Canada is unusual in how long you have to wait for medical attention. I don't know when the last time you were at a doctor was, but the earliest appointments you can make are always like a month away, and wait times in the ER are pretty routine.
As you point out, it's all about triage; if you are in the middle of cardiac arrest then they'll take care of you stat (gotta use the lingo,) but someone with a broken wrist might have to wait hours.
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man these avatars keep confusing me. It's awesome.
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If I had a quarter for every time I thought Jens was Liz...
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If I didn't like my Tommy avatar so much I would totally switch it to a picture of Jens to up the confusion factor.
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fun commentary on the topic: http://www.druckerbrothers.com/2008/07/you-conceived-him-at-hello.html
from the article :
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3205/2679614367_ee17b7104e.jpg)
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"Life Begins At Lust" is an awesome slogan. They should make shirts.
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This one is so much better.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3249/2680434300_2b59b88071_o.gif)
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fighting the system is hard. it's easier to just move somewhere else with a different system to complain about.
*whine whine whine*
Fighting the system is a losing proposition if you fight to win.
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This comic (http://www.picturesforsadchildren.com/comics/00000061.gif) is at least mildly relevant to the topic at hand.
Also it made me chuckle.
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If I didn't like my Tommy avatar so much I would totally switch it to a picture of Jens to up the confusion factor.
but it's easy to see who isn't tommy -- he's the only one without a sigquote from tommydski.
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It's mostly a load of crap people who say Canada is unusual in how long you have to wait for medical attention. I don't know when the last time you were at a doctor was, but the earliest appointments you can make are always like a month away, and wait times in the ER are pretty routine.
Wut? I get appointments only a couple weeks ahead, and I don't think that my brother had to wait to get into the ER when he got a big cut on his eyebrow as a toddler. I can't recall whether I had to wait when I split open my chin, I was four and in a great deal of pain, I have managed to repress those memories. We didn't have to wait at all at the urgent care place when I scooped some flesh out of my hand, and I wasn't bleeding all that bad. I think your problem is living in the big city.
Hmm... contraception is abortion, masturbation is abortion? Wet dreams are abortion? Menstruation is abortion? But if you do have a kid, all those other sperm die. No matter what you do, you are killing thousands.
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okaynegativenellyhere technically both sperm and eggs have only half the chromosomes needed to become a baby, so not even under this ridiculousness would it count as abortion. I would hope the conservatives wouldn't slide THAT far down the slippery slope.
And some forms of birth control (see: morning after pill, IUDs I think?) could be seen as aborticajfeiajfel, but it would depend on if your definition of when life starts is at conception, implantation, or somewhere else. So for someone who sees life starting at conception (I personally don't), I guess anything preventing implantation would be an abortion under their mindset.
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Actually back in seventh or eighth grade my teacher apparently told her son (my best friend at the time) that masturbation was wrong because all those sperm died. I made the same point you did, but the bastard child of religion and politics isn't about to think rationally, how dare you suggest it change to meet YOUR expectations! :-P
And yeah, I went to a Catholic school, if you were wondering about the teacher :|
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okaynegativenellyhere technically both sperm and eggs have only half the chromosomes needed to become a baby, so not even under this ridiculousness would it count as abortion. I would hope the conservatives wouldn't slide THAT far down the slippery slope.
And some forms of birth control (see: morning after pill, IUDs I think?) could be seen as aborticajfeiajfel, but it would depend on if your definition of when life starts is at conception, implantation, or somewhere else. So for someone who sees life starting at conception (I personally don't), I guess anything preventing implantation would be an abortion under their mindset.
Yeah, that's the point, really -- it's the implantation of an already fertilized egg in the uterus. From what I read in my more informative than misinformative health class, most contraceptives that aren't barriers do that.
From what it sounds like though, condoms are still on the list. I personally would like to see more groups in favor of rhythm-method styled family planning to also accept condoms as a safe and healthy form of family planning, but I suspect they fear that it would be equated with an OK on adultery.
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To me there's a difference between the death of a sentient and non-sentient being. That's why I largely have no problem with abortions during the first trimester, let alone with contraceptives. During that stage it's really not developed to the point where it can be scientifically described as a sentient being.
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But it has fingernails!!!
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To me there's a difference between the death of a sentient and non-sentient being. That's why I largely have no problem with abortions during the first trimester, let alone with contraceptives. During that stage it's really not developed to the point where it can be scientifically described as a sentient being.
Where do you draw the line for the mentally handicapped?
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Hey lets not drag grey areas into this, we are talking about abortion here people
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Legally (at least as far as the UK is concerned), it isn´t murder until it has emerged from the uterus. Getting rid of a fetus after (I think) 24 weeks is called child destruction, and that´s a whole different ball park of prison. We had the same sentient-being argument in Law and a pair of twins who take philosophy informed us that a prominent 20th century philosophy whose name they had forgotten said that only those beings who can think and act for themselves can be classed as people, and it can only be murder when it´s a person who was killed.
We suggested that maybe the philosopher in question was Hitler. I don´t think that´s a good definition at all.
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If someone takes my birth control pills away from me, there will be hell to pay.
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Hey!
Recently this dude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Morgentaler) got the Order of Canada, and a bunch of former recipients are giving theirs back, and a bunch of people are protesting, all because he performed abortions and helped make them legal!
I am personally not a big abortion fan but that seems pretty childish to me!
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Hey!
Recently this dude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Morgentaler) got the Order of Canada, and a bunch of former recipients are giving theirs back, and a bunch of people are protesting, all because he performed abortions and helped make them legal!
I am personally not a big abortion fan but that seems pretty childish to me!
I am a pretty big abortion fan.
"Upon graduation Morgentaler refused to go to Israel because he strongly opposed Zionism."
That guy rules so much.
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okaynegativenellyhere technically both sperm and eggs have only half the chromosomes needed to become a baby, so not even under this ridiculousness would it count as abortion. I would hope the conservatives wouldn't slide THAT far down the slippery slope.
The argument could be made for it being abortion for a couple capable of having children to not do so, though, they have both the sources of chromosones at the ready, they are having sex, but not having babies. However, I am pretty sure that nobody is going to be that stupid. Well, I am sure some people are stupid enough, but they would be shouted down by their associates.
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To me there's a difference between the death of a sentient and non-sentient being. That's why I largely have no problem with abortions during the first trimester, let alone with contraceptives. During that stage it's really not developed to the point where it can be scientifically described as a sentient being.
Where do you draw the line for the mentally handicapped?
you may be confusing sentience with sapience
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To me there's a difference between the death of a sentient and non-sentient being. That's why I largely have no problem with abortions during the first trimester, let alone with contraceptives. During that stage it's really not developed to the point where it can be scientifically described as a sentient being.
Where do you draw the line for the mentally handicapped?
you may be confusing sentience with sapience
You're right, I was. In that case, RedLion's stance sounds like a vegetarian's.
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Hey man. I like eating other animals. And I have no moral qualms with it, so long as I don't have to do the killing. I can justify it by saying that it's natural to eat other species. If, however, I had to kill the cow, or the pig, or even the chicken, I wouldn't be able to.
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Does that mean you are okay with abortions in the second and third trimesters then? I mean, you are not the one having them.
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I think eating the flesh of a creature that is no longer using it is a little bit different to giving birth to a living being capable of complex thought that shares DNA with you.
That said, I am totally for abortion up to any point, so long as the mother/carrier/surrogate/whatever term you want to use is not going to be harmed. My own beliefs on morality place the life of the already alive over that of the pre-born.
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I don't really see the connection between eating meat and abortions. I'm sure if I had to kill a chicken to eat it, I probably could, but I would not, however, be able to have an abortion. I am pro-choice as I believe that people should be able to have a choice, but personally, no, I don't think I could do it. Especially not after the first trimester. (Note, I do not consider the morning after pill abortion and that is something I would take in case of an emergency.) Partial-birth abortions are the only ones I really have problems with people doing.
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What about eggs? They'd grow up into chickens at some point.
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Just the fertilized ones, Johnny. If you have a chicken coop full of only hens, they will still lay eggs but those eggs won't be fertilized and won't become little chickens someday.
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My opinion regarding abortion is that it is really none of my business except in the event that I accidentally impregnate a lady. In that situation I think I would be okay with an abortion at any point, but I'd probably go with what the lady wanted. Honestly I don't think that anything has a right to life (in the sense of being an independent and sentient being, not in the sense of existence because saying something has the right to exist is positively absurd) that exceeds the right of what someone does to their own body.
I expect a fair few people will disagree with me on this one though but that's okay, I have some odd views on morality.
Oh and for the record I eat meat because I'm a dirty great hypocrit and I'm more or less okay with that.
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if you have a chicken coop full of only hens, they will still lay eggs but those eggs won't be fertilized and won't become little chickens someday.
chicken menstruation.
man eggs are delicious though.
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Just the fertilized ones, Johnny. If you have a chicken coop full of only hens, they will still lay eggs but those eggs won't be fertilized and won't become little chickens someday.
The point still stands that it is a baby chicken that ain't had the chance to be a baby chicken ever because humans intervened.
I'm going to kind of ping-pong to a bunch of different thoughts here, occasionally at the same time, so bear with me, I've been thinking about this most of today.
Honestly I don't think that anything has a right to life (in the sense of being an independent and sentient being, not in the sense of existence because saying something has the right to exist is positively absurd) that exceeds the right of what someone does to their own body.
I'm a little in need of clarification. Why is suggesting that a fetus has a right to exist - or that anything that has a right to exist - absurd? Especially since it already does exist in the case of said fetus.
As for the latter part, I've finally figured out what my main issues are in terms of making abortion about the right to choose. Calling it an issue of choice regarding your body is putting it on the same level as deciding whether you want a McGriddle or some fresh fruit for breakfast.* There is also the fact that while choice might be a firm legal ground it is a tremendous grey area from a philosophical and a logical standpoint - try defending the idea of abortion being a "choice" without making an appeal to emotion. You can do it about as easily as defending the notion of free will with the same condition. Finally, suggesting that choice overrides the right to exist severely trivializes the decision to get an abortion and does no real service to anyone considering it. You will be ending a human life. That is a huge decision to make. Sometimes it is the right decision, but it is even then an incredibly tough decision, and should be one because otherwise we have a bit of a problem.
That kind of brings me around to the original post on this topic. What I realized today makes me uncomfortable about equating birth control with abortion is that it, at least at some level, equates abortion with birth control. No way. Two totally separate things. It is one thing to decide "I want to have sex and not have consequences," which is even something you can do without physical contraception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_family_planning), and another thing to say "I do not want this baby which is currently inside of me to emerge living from my vagina."**
Even if you have unprotected sex there is still a chance that a fetus won't get born. Once there is the fetus inside of you it's a totally different scenario - even with Chuck Klosterman odds*** it's either gonna be a baby or you're gonna miscarry. Birth control and abortion are two very different decisions with two very different sets of conditions and consequences (and they don't even necessarily share the same results as birth control generally has a failure rate - yes, even vasectomies have a tiny failure rate). Trivializing the latter by equating it with the former is, I feel, very dangerous thinking, especially considering that the Western world doesn't have a very good track record with sexual education at the moment.
Reading this post, I come across as kind of anti-abortion, I think. To clarify, while I do think an abortion is something that by and large should be reserved for when it's necessary, I don't think it should be made illegal or considered immoral. And actually in terms of birth control, I'm okay with that, too.
*Rereading this, I appear to be fixated on breakfast foods.
**EDIT: Honestly, the more I think about it the more I think that the reason I'm so stunned this is even an issue is because never in my wildest dreams would I imagine someone to connect the two and go "Hey, these are the same thing!" It's so stupid that it beggars belief.
***50/50: "Either something will happen, or it won't."
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I'm a little in need of clarification. Why is suggesting that a fetus has a right to exist - or that anything that has a right to exist - absurd? Especially since it already does exist in the case of said fetus.
Firstly I'd like to say that I think this point is mostly a difference in definition and largely peripheral to the discussion at hand, but then it is interesting I suppose.
It is hard to word exactly why I think this so I'll try to put it in the form of a step by step argument.
Part of the defintion of a right is that it must be something that can be violated. (E.g The right to life can be violated by a murder.)
To hold rights P must exist.
If P had the right to exist then P's right to exist must be able to be violated.
To violate P's right to exist then P must be made non-existent.
If P is made non-existent then P cannot have any rights.
Therefore P cannot have the right to exist.
This depends entirely on your definition of existence. I view existence as something that starts as soon as anything is created in any form, for example the thought I had when I woke up this morning came into existence as I had it, and as something that is never ending. That's a bit of a trickier one but basically the thought I had this morning still exists despite it not being in my head at the moment, it didn't cease to exist simply because I stopped thinking it as we will not cease to exist when we die. It is hard for me to think of a really good way to put exactly why I think this across and I don't want to litter the thread with inane babbling. I guess if anyone really wants to discuss this with me they can PM or gabble with me or something.
Finally, suggesting that choice overrides the right to exist severely trivializes the decision to get an abortion and does no real service to anyone considering it.
I believe that giving any right a weighting in any situation is wrong as giving rights weighting suggests that it would be okay to remove one in protection of another and I think that the removal of a right is a violation of rights. Incidentally I do not believe that rights begin at implantation.
To clarify I didn't mean to suggest that the right to choose what one does to their own body overrides the right to life, but merely that the right to life doesn't override the right to choose what one does to their own body. I can see how it could be easily be confused because of the wording on my part though.
Also I am really not expecting what I am writing to be useful for anyone making a decision over an abortion. As I've said before it's really none of my business. I am simply saying that it is my belief that any attempt to make abortions illegal creates a confliction with rights.
I have written rights so many times now I think I am going to explode.
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What about eggs? They'd grow up into chickens at some point.
If you catch them at just the right point in gestation, you have a wonderful Filipino delicacy.
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I guess what it boils down to is I value a living, thinking, feeling, sentient, human being more than a blob that will eventually become a human being.
I don't enjoy or support the loss of any life, whatever animal it may be, human or otherwise. But death happens. Animals eat other animals for food, so I'm comfortable with eating other animals. But as an individual, I can't and couldn't bring myself to kill almost any living being, the exceptions being insects and spiders, mostly, and then only if they're wandering about my bathroom/kitchen/bedroom. But that's just me. I cherish life in all its forms including plants and such. I can't contemplate killing something. The only time I could really see myself doing so is if I was about to me mauled to death by a bear, and I happened to have something that would kill it and spare me my life, and that would just be instincts driving that. I think I'm too sensitive in many regards. Now, regarding humans, and fetuses, the question is a bit trickier. The world is already far over-populated. Fetuses shouldn't be punished for that, but if every potential baby came to be born and there weren't some termination, the current energy, resource and food problems that the world has would only be magnified unknowably, and war would intensify and grow as resources became mor eand more scarce. I'm sure that sounds callous, but it's a practical and realistic way of looking at it.
Now, using abortion as a form of birth control (as in "oops, I messed up..now I'm going to wait a few weeks/months agonizing over what to do until I abort it"), is something that I have large moral qualms about, as I do with partial-birth abortions. However, I think people should have the right to have a safe, legal abortion, if only for the fact that if it isn't legal and safe, it will be illegal and unsafe. In numerous cases, the woman simply wouldn't be a competent mother either, and the child wouldn't have much of a life. The ghettos of America and the world do not need more children born to single, poor, un-partnered mothers. To be honest, the life that they would be born into makes me feel that perhaps it would be better for them to not be born into that endless cycle of poverty, crime, suffering and death at all. Of course I'm uncomfortable with, and don't like the idea of, snuffing out a potential life. But I try to look at it through an objective, neutral view: The fact is , many of the women who get abortions just couldn't' handle having a child--financially, emotionally, etc. Yes, there's adoption, but orphanages across the country and globe are already over-crowded and are not a happy, fulfilling place to live, generally speaking. As cold as this will sound, not every fetus can be born, or should be allowed to be born. The world just can't handle it. I know that sounds horrible, but it's how I legitimately see the issue. Some of you may say "why stop there? Why not just kill people who are already alive?" And that's the point--they're already alive, they have lives. A fetus in the early stages of development doesn't; they don't know they're 'alive' in the sense that an amoeba doesn't know it's alive.
But, I don't know why I feel worse, I feel sadder, about animals being abused or treated cruelly or killed than I do about fetuses being aborted. Again, maybe it's because it's already alive, born and here in the world. When I see an animal that's been abused, I almost invariably cry and blubber like a baby. When I see photos of aborted fetuses, I cringe and feel a sense of repugnance, but it doesn't affect me in the way that the prior situation does.
Partial birth abortions are different, in my view. I don't think they should be allowed, unless the mother will die if the procedure isn't carried out. Why? For semantic reasons, mostly. If the abortion was going to take place, there's absolutely no reason for the woman to wait that long to do it.
Sorry, this post was kind of me thinking out loud. However, I'd like to hear your take on what I've said, if anyone has anything to say.
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I don't feel comfortable saying that this child or that child shouldn't have been born at all because then we get a step closer to Gattaca.
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I'm not saying that particular children should or shouldn't be born. I'm saying that, generally speaking, all babies just can't be born. It's not scientifically possible, for one, but it's also in some cases just not responsible. Yeah--I think that in some cases it's more responsible to have an abortion than to bring a child into a horrific situation that won't allow it to have a "life" in any sense of the word other than physically existing.
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The thing is, the decisions people will make in the real world will necessarily be about particular children. In the end, does anyone really have the authority to judge that a person's life is so worthless that it would have been better that they were aborted?
I believe fetuses should not be aborted unless the mother's life is in danger. However, I also don't think I have the authority to force any woman to endure pregnancy and childbirth and all the social/emotional/financial consequences of it.
Of course we don't want women to have abortions as a form of birth control. Of course we don't want women to have to resort to unsafe, illegal abortions. We all want fewer abortions in the world, and making abortion illegal is not the way to do it. Instead, we should strive to facilitate options that prevent abortions - namely, contraception and adoption.
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Welcome to the Republican Express! Next stop, the Stone Age!
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The thought of abortion leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It is a very invasive procedure that some people have taken to using instead of practicing safe sex. However, it has become a valuable tool in emergency family planning. This is largely fault of the medical "establishment" and the pressure from the "pro-life" lobby. In fact, actions like these will and do greatly increase the amount of abortions carried out in this country.
Perhaps the more important question to ask is why would we be allowed a hack system of right wing wingnuts tell us what we can and cannot do with our bodies? Why are our moral decisions being made by groups that are twice as conservative as most of the nation? The answer is that our health care system is broken. We are constantly at the will of a writhing, disgusting mass of lobbyists and "scientists" that can halt the progress of any major development. In fact, the pro-life lobby shares many views (and members) with organizations that have constantly stalled the development of effective HPV and HIV treatments, contributing to the deaths of literally millions of people. All of this under the guise that if sex is safer, people won't be safe during it. It is roughly on the same level of logic of those who say that having seatbelts in cars make people drive unsafely. The FDA does not reject drugs because they are unsafe. They reject drugs with either not enough money backing them or where somebody says the treatment is immoral. The result is that we are denied essential treatment, leaving us to inferior and less safe methods.
And that's what Abortion is, an inferior and unsafe method. We have scheduled birth control that is 99% effective, on top of that, we have emergency contraception that can be very effective, but the main problem is that if we run out of these treatments, we will have to go back to an outdated, dangerous procedure. It is like saying that people should know not to get too close to people with meningitis, so instead of providing antibiotics to the people who have it, they should just drill a hole or two in their head to relieve the pressure. It's your fault, so safety be damned. I am sick of cases of our personal health being ruled by unqualified imbeciles that cannot protect us, so they choose instead to restrict us.
Come on, we're better than this. We just have to be.
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I have absolutely no problems with abortion. At the same time, I don't have a problem with restricting the late term abortions. It seems like six to seven months should be enough time to make up your mind. As far as the abortions infringing on the right of a child to exist, well, I consider that child a possibility. It's like the old saying, "Don't count your eggs until they pop out and you are legally responsible for them for eighteen years."
If you dislike abortions, the best thing you can do is to help provide increased sex education and access to birth control. 11% of sexually active women don't use contraception and from this 11% comes 50% of the nation's abortions. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cristina-page/obama-the-real-pro-life-c_b_106510.html)
So, let's get people using as many birth control pills, condoms, and diaphragms as possible. If we can get that 11% using birth control, then, abortions should drop drastically. Then, every one is happier (though the far right will still condemn people for boinking out side of marriage).
Also, I would like to point out that the whole argument about last trimester abortions is mainly semantics. 98.9% of abortions in 2004 were performed with in 20 weeks on the pregnancy. (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html)