THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)
Comic Discussion => QUESTIONABLE CONTENT => Topic started by: jwhouk on 05 Sep 2010, 19:00
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The Question of the Week is the first Poll Topic of the week.
Oh, and UBMEOD = Useless Broom Made Entirely of Dicks.
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Face it, "UBMEOD" is the correct answer to any question in which it's presented as an option. It's like with the nerd-favourite question "Who would win in a fight?" If one of the options is "Batman," it doesn't matter who the other options are: Superman, Squirrel Girl, God...the correct answer is always Batman.
"But what if Batman's opponent had a UBMEOD?"
"...Shut up."
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Batman would simply take the UBMEOD away from his opponent, game over.
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batman keeps a UBMEOD in his utility belt, so they cancel each other out
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Actually, he keeps it just below his utility belt...
:laugh:
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Second Faye-pants-Marten in a row and no Hello Kitty belt?
Jeph, I am disappoint.
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Can Sven possibly be a more gigantic horse's ass?
Second Faye-pants-Marten in a row and no Hello Kitty belt?
Jeph, I am disappoint.
Maybe Marten found a more suitable pair of pants before he left and is not actually wearing the Hello Kitty belt.
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"Cliff Notes" on Faye are more like an appendium to The Art Of War.
I think that this is leading up to a big 'The Talk' between Marten and Dora.
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Sven reveals some new info on Dora. :mrgreen:
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Well, this was unexpected (by me, anyway, 'cause I just know I'm going to need the qualifier)—Sven was actually paying attention. But is that all he knows? Marten, time to rack him (we know your mom has one of those things somewhere).
Also, any sane person knows not to discuss the Batman and anything involving penises at the same time. Big can of worms there. Large, somewhat rigid …like I said, don't do it. It's one of two important lessons I learned from reading Superdickery (which seems to be down right now).
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Wow. Not only is Sven actually being understanding and actually indicating he gives a damn about Dora beyond her capacity to physically harm him, he's giving Marten a good eye-open while actually getting a good comeback in the witty banter. Looks like the Asshole-Therapy he's been giving himself is actually taking effect. Good to see he does have a nice side, as suspected.
Also: Don't talk about Batman's penis. The man is a ninja, and a genius, and the goddamn Batman. He could be behind you, right now, with his dong out. He could be making violent love to you and YOU WOULD NOT EVEN NOTICE. Not unless he wanted you to, in which case you would never recover from the feeling. Why? Because he is the goddamn Batman. And if you talk about the Bat-Schlong-Diddly-Ong, you only tempt fate.
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Nice to see Jeph sliding some limelight in Sven's direction.
So now we've got some backstory on Dora's relationships (and who better to ask then her brother, smart foresight Jeph) and along with it some justification. After dating a myriad of cheating assholes it is only natural Dora would become suspicious of even the most meager slight. It also explains why Faye's "If you haven't fucked it up already" line had such a seemingly large impact on Dora: This is the first good relationship she's ever had, so messing it up would be devastating. As for Marten he's got a choice to make: Realize and understand Dora's tough past and try to work with her for the sake of the relationship, or jump ship at the sight of such a major storm on the horizon.
Also since the above paragraph was very sympathetic towards Dora, I'll play devil's advocate against myself and point out that no matter how troubled her romantic past, Dora had no right to fly off the handle at both Marten and Faye in such a vicious way. While Marten does have a big choice to make, Dora also has the burden or responsibility on her shoulders as well.
I think I can speak for everybody when I say things are starting to get interesting.
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I would like to point out that Marten was with Dora far before Sven and Faye were hooking up, more importantly Sven initially seemed more interested in the banging than the talking, hence cliffs notes wouldn't have been practical.
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Face it, "UBMEOD" is the correct answer to any question in which it's presented as an option. It's like with the nerd-favourite question "Who would win in a fight?" If one of the options is "Batman," it doesn't matter who the other options are: Superman, Squirrel Girl, God...the correct answer is always Batman.
"But what if Batman's opponent had a UBMEOD?"
"...Shut up."
The correct answer is "Batman PS I'm a douche", because everyone who likes Batman is a douche.
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Also: Don't talk about Batman's penis. The man is a ninja, and a genius, and the goddamn Batman. He could be behind you, right now, with his dong out. He could be making violent love to you and YOU WOULD NOT EVEN NOTICE. Not unless he wanted you to, in which case you would never recover from the feeling. Why? Because he is the goddamn Batman. And if you talk about the Bat-Schlong-Diddly-Ong, you only tempt fate.
Were we talking about Batman's penis? I thought we were talking about the Useless Broom Made Entirely Of Dicks.
Also Batman, being the Batman, would be able to put the UBMEOD to all manner of useful purposes. Even the Ocean trembles at the thought of the dick-broom wielding Batman.
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It can't be entirely an act. When she isn't scared, Dora's understanding and compassion are real.
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I find it really odd that, given her relationship history, Dora was so cool with playing along in comics 739 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=739), 740 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=740), and 741 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=741) . Then again, Dora's never been terribly consistent. People in real life aren't either. It's still kind of weird, though, as she's probably had to say those exact words to someone who had really hurt her.
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It can't be entirely an act. When she isn't scared, Dora's understanding and compassion are real.
It's not that her being "a kind and good person capable of compasion and understanding" is an act, it's that her being a "chill and understanding"--ie, a relaxed, in-control person is an act.
Also, goddamn. Every time Sven and Faye come up on this forum, everyone always remembers a bizarre retconned version of their relationship where Sven was the cruel manipulative asshole and Faye was the pitiable victim, when that's pretty much THE OPPOSITE of how it happened. Yeah, it sucked that Sven had sex with Gina, and yeah, he knew it was a bad idea when he did it, but Faye had pretty much set him up to fail. She pulled all the strings in that relationship, and in the end I'd say her hurt was entirely through her own machinations. Sven had in fact been a selfish inconsiderate asshole in the past, but that was done with before he got together with Faye (and in large part because he was already getting emotionally invested in Faye).
To recap:
1. SHE kept coming over to his house to hang out, often not exactly invited, and butting into his life.
2. SHE was the one who made the first move on him when they had both been drinking.
3. She then rebuffed the SEVERAL moves he made to make it into something closer to an official relationship--she told him she expected it to be a one-time thing and basically scoffed at the idea of it being anything more when he inquired about their future plans, she turned him down for dinner and a movie, etc.
4. She continued to see him, all the while ignoring signs and suggestions that he was falling for her, and insisting that not only did he mean nothing to her except a roll in the hay, but that she didn't even want to hang out with him in public/with her other friends, treating him as a dirty little secret.
5. All the same she demanded that though it was not gonna be a relationship, he should not sleep with anyone else.
Quite reasonably, he refused to promise never to do so, although obviously Faye was free to leave when that happened. So he slipped and did, and Faye left as promised, and though it was dumb of him to do so, I'd say Faye mostly brought it on herself through her utter denial of both her own feelings, and Sven's feelings, and refusing to actually admit that he might be more invested in her than she wanted to think. (Any inimations of that on his part would be cut off bfore he even prperly started with "don't be silly, we all know you're just a womanizing jerk, so shut up and let me use you like a good uncomplicated sex toy".) I'd say she shot herslef in the foot there, although it's more like she handed a loaded gun with the safety off and a hair trigger to a man trying to regain the use of his hands after a lengthy paralysis, told him to aim at the target to her right and nowhere else, and then complained that he shot her in the foot instead.
If the genders were reversed, I don't think anyone would be treating her like the victim.
So please let's get over the shock that Sven may be acting like a decent guy who posesses feelings.
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I agree with JackFaerie. Faye did use Sven to fill certain needs, for the exact reason that the emotional stakes were low (at least that's what she convinced herself)
In the strip where Dora suggest she get a sex toy, she (jokingly?) suggested that a non-sentient Sven would serve that purpose well. When it turned out that Sven was a real boy with real feelings, or at least free will, the stakes got a lot higher.
Sven's still a gigantic horse's ass, though. It just happens that he's not (entirely) responsible for the way the arrangement (which was in no way shape or form a relationship, escept that it was) with Faye turned out.
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Sven's still a gigantic horse's ass, though.
It seems entirely in character that Sven wanted the CliffsNotes, instead of reading the book. Just call him short-cut boy!
Character development, Dora's back-story, Marten's pants... Tune in tomorrow folks, same bat-time, same bat-channel.
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No, Sven's a Villain! Pure VILLAIN I tell you! ;)
Seriously, though, my take on the Sven-Faye fling is that Faye found out the hard way that she can't do casual/FB sex, no matter how much she may want to. It has to be within the context of a full romantic relationship, which at that point she was not able to handle either. She would have been better off with with a dildo. Or a RealDoll.
As for the latest revelation about Dora, well, now I'm REALLY worried for Marten having learned that. I've known women like Dora who run through a string of assholes, and if/when they start dating a decent guy, one out of two things tend to happen;
- they run the guy off with their baggage
- they get bored with the relatively drama-free relationship with the decent guy and cheat on HIM-usually with yet another asshole
It's rare that they actually manage to handle their own past-relationship baggage well enough to appreciate the guy and keep him around.
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No, Sven's a Villain! Pure VILLAIN I tell you! ;)
Seriously, though, my take on the Sven-Faye fling is that Faye found out the hard way that she can't do casual/FB sex, no matter how much she may want to.
Yeah, but she also used another person to find this out, and one who was far less ok with being in a casual FB relationship than she projected onto him. (Especially when the "no sleeping wth other people" totally took it beyond the bounds of FB/casual relationships without offering any of the benefits of real romantic committment.) Admittedly, like Faye herself, Sven didn't understand the full extend of his feelings until things were over, but the entire arrangement was her idea, and Sven was pretty much just going along with it because he was into her and this was the only option she provided. In which case I have far more sympathy for him than for her. It always felt like he was joking it all off, but basically was caught up in her and couldn't stand his ground to say "no, I don't want this if it's not a real relationship" because he didn't want to lose what he had. (And because due to his past exploits, it was hard for him to admit that just-fun sex with a cute girl wasn't "enough" all in itself--he was a guy after all, and that's what guys want!--and Faye certainly reinforced the idea that he should think that.)
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As for the latest revelation about Dora, well, now I'm REALLY worried for Marten having learned that. I've known women like Dora who run through a string of assholes, and if/when they start dating a decent guy, one out of two things tend to happen;
- they run the guy off with their baggage
- they get bored with the relatively drama-free relationship with the decent guy and cheat on HIM-usually with yet another asshole
It's rare that they actually manage to handle their own past-relationship baggage well enough to appreciate the guy and keep him around.
Fortunately, Dora has Faye around to give her a swift kick in the ass if she starts to self-sabotage, or projects her baggage onto Marten, which she expressed he willingness and ability to do in Thursday's strip.
And if Faye doesn't get the job done, there's always Hanner-hulk!
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[snip]
4. She continued to see him, all the while ignoring signs and suggestions that he was falling for her, and insisting that not only did he mean nothing to her except a roll in the hay, but that she didn't even want to hang out with him in public/with her other friends, treating him as a dirty little secret.
5. All the same she demanded that though it was not gonna be a relationship, he should not sleep with anyone else.
[moar]
When Faye and Sven started their thing, I thought it was going to be good for both of them. And yes, Faye did everything you said, but, you seem to have forgotten this (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1264), when Faye tries to move things in a different direction, and then this (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1274) lovely philosophy, followed by this (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1307). (yes, he's being funny, but it worked out that way, too, didn't it? And Sven didn't take the opportunity to try to make Faye redefine things if she wanted fidelity.) , this (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1318), and this (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1319). Even I would know* she's asking for some sign he gives a damn—his answer indicates otherwise.
I still think Faye chose Sven because she didn't think it could go anywhere, and she probably was unhappy that it did. But how can anyone save for some super-confident ball-buster who's damned and determined she and Sven will be an item, come hell or high water, face up to all that and not be a tad defensive? I wouldn't treat a dog like that, and I detest dogs. (Sorry, Shelby.)
Oh, yeah, what about this (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1313) ? Actually, it's got nothing to do with my argument—I just noticed again how hot Hanners looks in the grip of a deathly illness. Again. Share and enjoy, I say.
*Way back when.
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Sven, the only thing you did really wrong with Faye was sleeping with that GIna Riversmith chick, and YOU KNEW IT WAS WRONG AT THE TIME! (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1334)
How would "Cliff Notes" have helped that?
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Oh, yeah, what about this (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1313) ? Actually, it's got nothing to do with my argument—I just noticed again how hot Hanners looks in the grip of a deathly illness. Again. Share and enjoy, I say.
Oh hey, a covert Pratchett reference! Completely did not notice that the first time round.
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The idea of Cliffs Notes on girls to help boys "manage" them, or just manage to bang them, is just the tiniest bit offensive to my feminist side.
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The idea of Cliffs Notes on girls to help boys "manage" them, or just manage to bang them, is just the tiniest bit offensive to my feminist side.
Yeah, but fair's fair... Sven is a walking "Hey I want to fuck girls because I'm so awesome and guys are like that" stereotype. He's more than a little offensive to guys, in and of himself.
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They're all broken.
Some (i.e., Dora) are just better at hiding it than others.
And remember, he used a cheat code, but you can only get the Bad Ending if you do that. (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1571)
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The idea of Cliffs Notes on girls to help boys "manage" them, or just manage to bang them, is just the tiniest bit offensive to my feminist side.
Yeah, but fair's fair... Sven is a walking "Hey I want to fuck girls because I'm so awesome and guys are like that" stereotype. He's more than a little offensive to guys, in and of himself.
Fortunately, he's balanced by guys like Marten in the comic, so we know he's meant to be an exception and an individual, not just "how all guys are" or something silly like that. (Compare and contrast with the protagonist of, say, Least I Could Do.)
As far as Cliff Notes for potential dates, it seems less like a request for help in "managing" Faye, and more like a cry of "I had no idea what I was getting myself into in terms of emotional entanglements". But even so, there was really no reason for Marten to tell Sven anything about Faye's past - he was her friend, not his, and she shared the info about her father in a private talk with him, and it was pretty clearly a big deal for her to divulge. For Marten to tell Sven something that private, or even just to say, "Faye has some real trouble with relationships sometimes but I can't really tell you any more, so good luck with that", would probably have been a violation of the trust Faye placed in him.
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Marten couldn't provide Sven with Cliff's Notes on Faye, aside from the reasons already mentioned. He was still going through the Big Book of Faye himself!
So this is what makes Jeph's writing so damn good - even when a character is introduced as a stereotype, we find out there's so much more to them - just like real peeplz!
Sven was introduced as a womanizer. He acknowledged as much. Makes an arrangement with Faye ("Fine with me!" shows up somewhere in Raoullefere's linked pages), but when it all blows to hell (as he knew it would), we get the one word frame... "awesome (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1341)". There was a lot of shock and sorrow in that one word, with the most forlorn look Sven ever had. There's even more insight in the Kim Jong Il sledding incident. He knows he fucked up, he developed feelings, and can't cope.
[\rehash]
Sven doesn't need to blame Marten, he's dealing with it. Angus really did get a Cliff's Notes version of the BBoF, and it seemed to help some. That and, as Angus developed from "argument guy", he turned out to be a decent person, unlike the way Sven was developing.
I read this as a turnabout joke. That's all. Sven shouldn't have had to warn Marten about anything, Dora should've talked to him herself at some point. Like, a while ago. But she's a little too self-sabatoging to do so, and now it's blowing up. Sven's not close enough to them to notice it until now, or maybe he would have warned Marten, the way Marten warned Angus - vague, but helpful.
Anyway, time for more growth!
And JackFaerie, good to hear from you again. We need more insightful reminders, the past slips away too easily!
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The idea of Cliffs Notes on girls to help boys "manage" them, or just manage to bang them, is just the tiniest bit offensive to my feminist side.
I don't think management is the idea so much as not failing the test. That's what Cliff's notes are for, yes*? It's also what Sven did, and I'm fairly sure he knows it. Carl is right; that was quite a forlorn look.
*Unless you're a mindless prat who doesn't think your teacher has also read the Cliff's notes and anticipated that you may have failed to read the original text while he's wiring his exam. I'm fine with them as a guide, but not as a substitute, or would be, if I had anything to do with teaching lit, which I don't.
At least not after I made that person eat his, er, anymore.
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The idea of Cliffs Notes on girls to help boys "manage" them, or just manage to bang them, is just the tiniest bit offensive to my feminist side.
You'd rather guys just blunder along absolutely clueless, as many guys do, and end up alone? I'm not even talking about getting girls in bed, I'm talking about guys who can't even carry a conversation with a girl, especially one they're attracted to. Or they say the wrong things and run the girl off. "Being yourself" doesn't work if yourself gets ignored by the opposite sex or is found repulsive by them. Such guys need some kind of help, right?
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That's not really what the comic's talking about at all though. This is a 'cheat sheet' to a specific individual.
Guys who can't carry a conversation with a girl could certainly use some guidance, preferably the sort that begins with, "First, join a social group with both guys and girls in it..."
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Where the *** did Sven get any of this information ?!?!?!?!?!?!? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???
IMHO he's totally out of character.
P.s.: Ok, he's totally out of my idea of his character. Uh.
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Oh, yeah, what about this (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1313) ? Actually, it's got nothing to do with my argument—I just noticed again how hot Hanners looks in the grip of a deathly illness. Again. Share and enjoy, I say.
You know, I went to the next comic after that link (1314 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1314), if you are lazy) and found it rather fascinating that, even in jest, Dora knew she would be able to tell if Marten had actually cheated on her. I call BS on this whole "Dora's past boyfriends were jackasses" stuff. There is no reason it needed to take 3+ huge arguments for her to realize what kind of relationship she had with Marten. There were plenty of opportunities for these revelations to come out before now, so I am slightly disappointed in Dora. Even when she saw that he still had the hots for Faye, Dora could easily see that Marten was not the same kind of jackass that she previously dated.
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Yeah, it would be nice to have notes on everybody that we have a relationship with. But, then again, those books are being constantly being rewritten, so most of the information would be useless. 8-)
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Where the *** did Sven get any of this information ?!?!?!?!?!?!? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???
My theory is they were both living at home (or at least in relatively close proximity as they are now) during Dora's abusive-goth dating years, so he's a firsthand witness.
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Where the *** did Sven get any of this information ?!?!?!?!?!?!? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???
My theory is they were both living at home (or at least in relatively close proximity as they are now) during Dora's abusive-goth dating years, so he's a firsthand witness.
Dammit, I must still be asleep. Somehow I thought they where talking about Faye.
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You know, I went to the next comic after that link (1314 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1314), if you are lazy) and found it rather fascinating that, even in jest, Dora knew she would be able to tell if Marten had actually cheated on her. I call BS on this whole "Dora's past boyfriends were jackasses" stuff. There is no reason it needed to take 3+ huge arguments for her to realize what kind of relationship she had with Marten. There were plenty of opportunities for these revelations to come out before now, so I am slightly disappointed in Dora. Even when she saw that he still had the hots for Faye, Dora could easily see that Marten was not the same kind of jackass that she previously dated.
We realize thngs at different levels. It's one thing to have your BF spit out that he saw another girl's boob, accidentally. She acknowledges that he could never cheat on her, his head would 'splode. She knows this at a rational level, making a joke (one of the weirdest, most elaborate thought process we humans posess).
It's quite another to wake up with him in someone else's arms. She responds at an emotional (dare I say "irrational") level. And not just emotional, but fed up with cheating. People were using the term "lizard brained", it's at that basic a level. There's no connnection between the two!
I hate to say this, but it really does make the other insecure rants she's had more understandable. Not any more forgivable - any one of them should have led to a talk by now - but she's clearly repressing a lot.
I'm interested in finding out why she's held all this back, or in, or wherever. It's been four days, and what, an hour's passed?
Gonna be a LOOOOOOOOOONG night...
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...the nerd-favourite question "Who would win in a fight?" If one of the options is Even if one of the options isn't "Batman," it doesn't matter who the other options are: Superman, Squirrel Girl, God...the correct answer is always Batman.
This seems more appropriate.
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Guys who can't carry a conversation with a girl could certainly use some guidance, preferably the sort that begins with, "First, join a social group with both guys and girls in it..."
And then there are guys who have no more problem carrying a conversation with girls than with other guys, it's just that they don't have a mode for "conversation with someone I'm attracted to and I'd like to explore the possibilities with".
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"We've been dating for..." is a nice touch in panel 3. Keep the speculation alive, I say.
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And then there are guys who have no more problem carrying a conversation with girls than with other guys, it's just that they don't have a mode for "conversation with someone I'm attracted to and I'd like to explore the possibilities with".
I think that's really what's meant when they say a guy "can't talk to girls." Really, if you got tongue-tied every time you were around a woman, whether or not you were trying/hoping to sleep with her, you couldn't function in society. You'd be a mess.
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"Cliff Notes" on Faye are more like an appendium to The Art Of War.
I think that this is leading up to a big 'The Talk' between Marten and Dora.
Sun Tzu's or Machiavelli's version?
Both wrote books with that title, but Sun's has stood the test of time as a general insight into the operational arts better than Mach's.
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You know, I went to the next comic after that link (1314 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1314), if you are lazy) and found it rather fascinating that, even in jest, Dora knew she would be able to tell if Marten had actually cheated on her. I call BS on this whole "Dora's past boyfriends were jackasses" stuff. There is no reason it needed to take 3+ huge arguments for her to realize what kind of relationship she had with Marten. There were plenty of opportunities for these revelations to come out before now, so I am slightly disappointed in Dora. Even when she saw that he still had the hots for Faye, Dora could easily see that Marten was not the same kind of jackass that she previously dated.
I suspect the point is, at this juncture, that Dora's insecurity has nothing at all to do with who she's seeing, but with her own feeling of self-worth, or lack thereof. In other words, Marten may not be the same, but Dora is; she feels herself unworthy of fidelity, and thus is constantly waiting for things to go the way they must, even if she's not consciously aware of it. It is very possible Dora dates people she's 'sure' are going to demonstrate this to her, but made a mistake with Marten—on some level, Dora was certain Marten preferred Faye to her, setting herself up for the inevitable dumping when he or Faye or both came to their senses—after all, who would choose Dora over someone else? Only it didn't happen. Now Dora is stuck waiting for the shoe to drop, and at the same time in horribly unfamiliar territory. Hence the flare-ups escalating from "you got a haircut' to where we are.
It's strange, but true—people often prefer the familiar, even if the alternative is actually more pleasant. The phrase 'better the devil you know' is more far-reaching than many suspect.
Just my theory about Dora, but we shall see.
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http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=762 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=762)
Jeph's comments on 762 are kind of humorous in hindsight
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The correct answer is "Batman PS I'm a douche", because everyone who likes Batman is a douche.
See? See? Even Batman-haters agree that Batman always wins.
Wait, does that make fifthfiend a douche?
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I would not have thought of Raoullaferre's theory but it's fascinating and makes sense.
First mention of Dora having hidden anxieties was strip 293.
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Face it, "UBMEOD" is the correct answer to any question in which it's presented as an option. It's like with the nerd-favourite question "Who would win in a fight?" If one of the options is "Batman," it doesn't matter who the other options are: Superman, Squirrel Girl, God...the correct answer is always Batman.
"But what if Batman's opponent had a UBMEOD?"
"...Shut up."
The correct answer is "Batman PS I'm a douche", because everyone who likes Batman is a douche.
DO NOT DISPARAGE THE BATAWANG.
D
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Really, if you got tongue-tied every time you were around a woman, whether or not you were trying/hoping to sleep with her, you couldn't function in society. You'd be a mess.
Ah ha, my partner has a couple of employees who actually, yeah, get tongue-tied around any and all women. This includes on the phone. One of them is in his 60s, goes bright red and stammers when one of the women from another office calls - and accordingly, she calls him, because she gets what she wants. :roll:
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5. All the same she demanded that though it was not gonna be a relationship, he should not sleep with anyone else.
And yes, Faye did everything you said, but, you seem to have forgotten this (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1264), when Faye tries to move things in a different direction
She wasn't trying to move things in a different direction, she just wanted another bang, as shown when after her little spat, she called right back and said "ok."
"...and then this lovely philosophy," .... he's spelling it out accurately, what's your problem with that?
followed by this .... again, he's acknowledging the contradictory situation SHE created... why bash HIM for that?
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No, she settled for a bang- she wanted to hang out and be comforted after a hard day.
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No, she settled for a bang- she wanted to hang out and be comforted after a hard day.
And i daresay she got her comforting...
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I wouldn't treat a dog like that, and I detest dogs. (Sorry, Shelby.)
Well, I do declare! And you call yourself a Southerner, suh? (Typing that brought an image to mind of me in a Southern Belle outfit. I'd look very odd.)
I think that's really what's meant when they say a guy "can't talk to girls." Really, if you got tongue-tied every time you were around a woman, whether or not you were trying/hoping to sleep with her, you couldn't function in society. You'd be a mess.
From a female perspective, I'd say men who "can't talk to girls" simply can't communicate effectively with us, rather than just getting tongue-tied. The glib douche, with his patter of "zingers" and pick-up lines, is no more capable than the stammering dork. The (nowadays rare, but not yet extinct) fast-talking technical salesman who is too busy laying on the charm to listen to (never mind answer) my questions, is another example of a man who can't talk to women (or at least to me).
It's strange, but true—people often prefer the familiar, even if the alternative is actually more pleasant. The phrase 'better the devil you know' is more far-reaching than many suspect. Just my theory about Dora, but we shall see.
Raoullefere might dislike dogs, but he's no fool... ;)
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:|
Nothing against a nice boink, but when you need a hug and a friend to talk to and cheering up? It's not remotely enough. It's sad that it was all he was able to offer her, and sadder that she thought it was all she deserved to have.
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And then there are guys who have no more problem carrying a conversation with girls than with other guys, it's just that they don't have a mode for "conversation with someone I'm attracted to and I'd like to explore the possibilities with".
That's it! I can function in all sorts of social situations, UNTIL I'm face to face with a woman I LIKE... part of my brain freezes up.
And I think that's why I'm defending Sven here - FAYE was the one who limited their relationship, trying to control it, and he went along, as I did with one woman, where the roles were reversed. She kept it FwB, I realized I wanted more. It was an emotional roller-coaster.
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And then there are guys who have no more problem carrying a conversation with girls than with other guys, it's just that they don't have a mode for "conversation with someone I'm attracted to and I'd like to explore the possibilities with".
That's it! I can function in all sorts of social situations, UNTIL I'm face to face with a woman I find desirable... part of my brain freezes up.
Oh, I see. Well, in a way, that's what happens to me too, but most of the time it's the part of my brain that finds her desirable that freezes up, so I fall back to continuing the conversation in a perfectly ordinary way. Hell, I'm not even sure my attitude noticeably changes. It's kinda like I forbid myself to act on my attraction for fear of being obnoxious and annoy her, and waste an otherwise pleasant conversation.
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Sven, the only thing you did really wrong with Faye was sleeping with that GIna Riversmith chick, and YOU KNEW IT WAS WRONG AT THE TIME! (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1334)
How would "Cliff Notes" have helped that?
Actually, I think what he did wrong was putting up with Faye's intense bullshit in the first place. I think as soon as she told him she wasn't going to consider a relationship with him, but expected exclusivity, he shoulda cut it off right there, because to me it is an INCREDIBLY out-of-line demand.
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I think it's pretty much what we'd expect of Sven at this point, though. Whatever else can be said about his character, he's always been shown to care about his little sister - behind the jokes about how she'd kick his arse if she saw a need, it's pretty obvious that he does genuinely care about what she thinks. Which follows, naturally, that he genuinely cares about her. So if anything's going to cut through his suave-womanizer-bullshit, it's the thought of Dora hurting. There's just that instinctive Big Brother reflex that I don't think even Sven is immune to. His feelings toward Faye, whatever they may be, won't trump that. Which is why I think he's being completely honest to Marten, who he respects as a decent guy for his sister. Hell, he basically said as much in panel 2.
But for the same reason I can't see him giving Marten a big history on arseholes from Dora's life. I think he'll basically give Marten the advice that's needed: that Dora, herself, needs to be able to tell Marten about what she's been through, and why that means she has so much trouble trusting him. Part of it is her self-image, part of it is instinctive reaction to a guy she has feelings for, but all of it is coming from her, and that can't be solved by a third party filling in the blanks. She has to be the one to talk Marten through this, if only so that they can come to the conclusion that he's just not That Guy.
As for Sven? I wholeheartedly endorse him giving Marten a nudge in the right direction. It's such a Big-Brotherly thing to do in order to help Dora. But at the same time I don't see him wanting to get any more involved than that, or telling Marten too much. I definitely don't see him wanting Dora to know that he's helping. Like he said himself, "Gotta keep up the act."
I think this is one of Sven's most important appearances since he and Faye had their falling out. It makes him a real person again, it's so believable for what siblings who care about each other would do, and yet it's perfectly in character for what we've seen - he DOES care about Dora, he just doesn't want to admit it to anyone. I'm really enjoying where it's gone for him.
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From a female perspective, I'd say men who "can't talk to girls" simply can't communicate effectively with us, rather than just getting tongue-tied. The glib douche, with his patter of "zingers" and pick-up lines, is no more capable than the stammering dork. The (nowadays rare, but not yet extinct) fast-talking technical salesman who is too busy laying on the charm to listen to (never mind answer) my questions, is another example of a man who can't talk to women (or at least to me).
Did it occur to you at all that the face a man presents to you while he's trying to pick you up might only be a facet of his personality? Or do you see him as an uncomplicated Martian, existing only to try and fail to fuck you and then go off and get himself killed in some manly contest of strength?
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I think it's pretty clear that, if that's he facet of his personality that a man tries to present to a woman he's interested in, then the rest can't be much better.
The exception is the stammering dork, for whom nothing is being presented. Whatever else there is, it has to be better!
Well, at least one would hope so.
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Did it occur to you at all that the face a man presents to you while he's trying to pick you up might only be a facet of his personality? Or do you see him as an uncomplicated Martian, existing only to try and fail to fuck you and then go off and get himself killed in some manly contest of strength?
I see what he chooses to present to me. I see what he chooses to present on the basis of what he believes will impress me. Let us imagine that the pick-up artist is a complex, multi-faceted individual who sings madrigals in his spare time, befriends stray cats, and is kind to his Mum, but chooses to hide that complexity behind his douchebag front. That he does so suggests that he believes the douchebag will appeal to me more than his real self, revealing both a lack of confidence in himself, and a profound contempt for me. Neither is attractive. At all.
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I hope Jeph doesn't go too far with this "It's all an act" thing. It risks cheapening the integrity of his characters. I'm hoping the truth is something a little less dire than "So hey... it turns out she's actually been acting the whole time and her entire existence has been a lie."
I think it's as someone mentioned before, and it's not really all an act, just the parts where she pretends not to be a jealous mess specifically as it pertains to being in a relationship. Which would actually only amount to about two or three times where she's been acting, since she doesn't usually pretend she's not paranoid.
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Marten must understand that Dora's problem is not something you just fix. My first wife dated an arsehole (the knock her up, pretend interest, leave the country kind), and this was still affecting our relationship 15 years and more later.
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Then there was this comic...
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1307
So, it's not like Sven's not a douchebag.
But yes, yes, I agree, takes two to tango, blah blah blah.
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Did it occur to you at all that the face a man presents to you while he's trying to pick you up might only be a facet of his personality? Or do you see him as an uncomplicated Martian, existing only to try and fail to fuck you and then go off and get himself killed in some manly contest of strength?
I see what he chooses to present to me. I see what he chooses to present on the basis of what he believes will impress me. Let us imagine that the pick-up artist is a complex, multi-faceted individual who sings madrigals in his spare time, befriends stray cats, and is kind to his Mum, but chooses to hide that complexity behind his douchebag front. That he does so suggests that he believes the douchebag will appeal to me more than his real self, revealing both a lack of confidence in himself, and a profound contempt for me. Neither is attractive. At all.
that seems rather simplistic and uncharitable. first of all, 'douchebag' is a subjective assessment, and our straw-man would probably disagree that it describes his approach, as might some hypothetical straw-women. second of all you're speculating on someone else's internal internal motivations. this is all well and good with a hypothetical straw-man, but not with an actual human being. the fact is that unless you actually know them, you have no way of knowing why they are using the 'douchebag' approach. though if i might join you in speculation: presumably the fact that he is doing so implies that he thinks it will work, which would suggest that it either has in the past, or that he is operating from bad information. neither of which indicates 'contempt' for you, or a lack of confidence.
third: the fact is that we all adapt and moderate our behavior based on what we believe will be most appropriate/effective in a given context. you don't behave the same way on a date as you do at a job interview, nor do you usually speak to your coworkers the same way as your friends. this is how humans function as social animals. how a man approaches a woman is no diffrent.
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I wouldn't treat a dog like that, and I detest dogs. (Sorry, Shelby.)
Well, I do declare! And you call yourself a Southerner, suh? (Typing that brought an image to mind of me in a Southern Belle outfit. I'd look very odd.)
To be honest, my body hates dogs with an intensity that's beyond holy, and makes me suffer if I allow them near me. Add to that the idiocy of several relatives (a few decades seems to me enough time to figure a few things out), together with the vapidity with which many people treat their dogs and the resulting disasters, and I wind up not caring much for them at all.
I'm sure you'd look wonderful in a hoop skirt. Not that I'm implying anything about your appearance one way or the other, but, odd as it may seem, very few ladies don't. I think the dress takes over. As much trouble as it looks like, it ought to.
:|
Nothing against a nice boink, but when you need a hug and a friend to talk to and cheering up? It's not remotely enough. It's sad that it was all he was able to offer her, and sadder that she thought it was all she deserved to have.
Exactly. Although I wonder if it was able, or willing? I honestly don't know. Maybe we'll find out.
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*glances around, glances at last thread* Wow, I missed a lot. 'scuse me if I don't chew through it all.
Sven sure is doing well. He seems to have evened out quite nicely psychologically.
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second of all you're speculating on someone else's internal internal motivations. this is all well and good with a hypothetical straw-man, but not with an actual human being.
Er... Speculate is all one can ever do about other people's internal motivations, no matter how well one thinks one knows them. Only their behaviour is observable.
the fact is that we all adapt and moderate our behavior based on what we believe will be most appropriate/effective in a given context. you don't behave the same way on a date as you do at a job interview, nor do you usually speak to your coworkers the same way as your friends. this is how humans function as social animals. how a man approaches a woman is no diffrent.
Granted, but the key words are "most appropriate/effective". If a man approaches me in a manner I find repellent, how is his approach effective? In choosing it, how has he demonstrated the ability to communicate with me?
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"Angst-solstice" has potential as a band name.
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Comic comment: Angst Solstice would be a great emo band name.
Edit: GAH beaten to it by a few seconds, damn
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"Angst-solstice" has potential as a band name.
Comic comment: Angst Solstice would be a great emo band name.
Edit: GAH beaten to it by a few seconds, damn
Nah, too hard to pronounce; too many 's'-'st'-'sts' combos.
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"Faye broke Sven." I don't know why, but now I'm thinking of The World According to Garp (the book), when Garp bit the dog. In any case, maybe reassembled Sven will be an improvement.
But he probably can't run 60 miles per hour now, or get cool sound effects to play when he jumps, runs, or hits things.
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At the Festival of the Angst Solstice, moody villiagers stand around a black maypole, cross their arms, and nod sullenly to music played on Pan-Pipes. They hang garlands of leaves that died last year because nobody cared for the trees in the orchard. They drink mulled wine, but it must be from a chipped coffee mug, and while muttering about how bitter it is. At the end, they burn an effigy of man and woman, but it doesn't look like anyone because nobody gets the work of the artist who made the effigies. At the end of the night you go home with the nearest member of the opposite sex and fornicate without making eye contact.
It is pretty much the worst festival ever.
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Granted, but the key words are "most appropriate/effective". If a man approaches me in a manner I find repellent, how is his approach effective? In choosing it, how has he demonstrated the ability to communicate with me?
Well he's communicated that he's a douchebag.
Many douchey people seem to successfully get together with each other, this seems like it'd be an important part of doing that.
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It seems almost inevitable that Marten will run into someone else tomorrow, particularly after his "angst solstice" line.
But who will it be? Steve? Marigold? Cosette? Hanners?
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Angst Solstice?
Once in a blue Moon? :-D
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second of all you're speculating on someone else's internal internal motivations. this is all well and good with a hypothetical straw-man, but not with an actual human being.
Er... Speculate is all one can ever do about other people's internal motivations, no matter how well one thinks one knows them. Only their behaviour is observable.
true, but what i was trying to point out there is that you appear to be holding your own speculation (based off of very little information) against them. this seems unfair to me.
the fact is that we all adapt and moderate our behavior based on what we believe will be most appropriate/effective in a given context. you don't behave the same way on a date as you do at a job interview, nor do you usually speak to your coworkers the same way as your friends. this is how humans function as social animals. how a man approaches a woman is no diffrent.
Granted, but the key words are "most appropriate/effective". If a man approaches me in a manner I find repellent, how is his approach effective? In choosing it, how has he demonstrated the ability to communicate with me?
actually, the key word there is believe. if you find his approach repellent, then it was not appropriate or effective, nor does it demonstrate an ability to communicate. therefor, he has failed in his objective because he miscalculated his strategy. essentially, he made a mistake, this does not make him a bad person.
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I bet Dora followed Marten and heard him say he loves Faye and will freak out about it.
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second of all you're speculating on someone else's internal internal motivations. this is all well and good with a hypothetical straw-man, but not with an actual human being.
Er... Speculate is all one can ever do about other people's internal motivations, no matter how well one thinks one knows them. Only their behaviour is observable.
true, but what i was trying to point out there is that you appear to be holding your own speculation (based off of very little information) against them. this seems unfair to me.
But that's essentially what a guy who presents a 'douchebag' front to you when trying to pick you up would like you to do; he's chosen that front to present because he believes it will be attractive to either you specifically or women in general. If you presume that it does represent the real him, and he really is a douche, then judging him on that seems entirely fair, because even if that's only one facet of him, you'd probably rather date someone who isn't even a little douchey. If it's an act designed to impress you, and he's not 14, he may be acting based on faulty information about how 'girls like this', but in that case, it seems fair to judge him based on the fact that he has incredibly poor judgment and could genuinely bring himself to believe that girls would enjoy hanging out with arseholes.
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I bet Dora followed Marten and heard him say he loves Faye and will freak out about it.
She won't need to have done that in order to freak out.
It's already happening, after the "readjustment" Faye gave her.
(emotional chiropracty, anyone?)
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But that's essentially what a guy who presents a 'douchebag' front to you when trying to pick you up would like you to do; he's chosen that front to present because he believes it will be attractive to either you specifically or women in general. If you presume that it does represent the real him, and he really is a douche, then judging him on that seems entirely fair, because even if that's only one facet of him, you'd probably rather date someone who isn't even a little douchey. If it's an act designed to impress you, and he's not 14, he may be acting based on faulty information about how 'girls like this', but in that case, it seems fair to judge him based on the fact that he has incredibly poor judgment and could genuinely bring himself to believe that girls would enjoy hanging out with arseholes.
If it walks like a douche...
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I'd just like to point out that anyone who thinks that acting like a douchebag will get you girls is saying that this man is correct.
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.tvsquad.com/media/2007/09/pickup.jpg)
His name is Mystery. He believes that he can attract ladies by acting like a peacock. He does not believe that "negative attention" is a thing which is real. And anyone who supports acting like a douchebag is saying, in direct terms, that they feel this man is intelligent and his advice is worth taking.
Yeah.
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Give us some credit, we're allowed to partially agree with a statement. That guy may be a colossal prick, but he is at least partly right. You can attract some ladies that way. Not all, because different women are going to have different reactions, ranging between "OMG WANT" and "That man is a flaming assbag and I want nothing to do with him." but he's at least right about the peacock thing being good for picking up those ladies who are attracted to jerks who act like peacocks.
Just like acting all pathetic, pale and nerdy is good for picking up ladies who like that. Or being an arrogant rap-star wanker with his pants slung so low that the ass is scraping the street. Or being a drug-fuelled rock star, a successful executive, or a manly farmhand type. Different people are attracted to different things, and I'm sure his jerk act DOES get him some action. So, he's not wrong as such. he's just not right all of the time either.
He is, however, completely wrong about there being no such thing as negative attention.
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But Switchblade. His name is Mystery.
He chose that name for himself.
HE VOLUNTARILY CALLS HIMSELF MYSTERY. AND HE MAKES HIS FRIENDS CALL HIM THAT.
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Oh god, how did we get to pick-up artists?
I have seen/participated in too many internet debates with/about pickup artists. It is kind of my specialty.
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Ok, i've done a little forum-chewing, but forgive me if I'm about to repeat something already said.
Really interesting points have been made about Sven's development as a character, Dora's history, and even situational communication practices. But what I want to say is: Why did Marten have to wear clothing that covers up the belt? Why?
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Because no matter what the circumstances, no matter how cool, no matter what, there's no way in hell a dude can live down being seen in public wearing a Hello Kitty belt buckle.
And there are absolutely no circumstances where Marten Reed will be seen in public sans hoodie!
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It seems entirely in character that Sven wanted the CliffsNotes, instead of reading the book. Just call him short-cut boy!
Well, "reading the book" in this analogy is "learning things the hard way, causing both himself and Faye to get hurt in the process" [and not incidentally, what _did_ happen], so it's debatable that this is a bad thing to want.
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But that's essentially what a guy who presents a 'douchebag' front to you when trying to pick you up would like you to do; he's chosen that front to present because he believes it will be attractive to either you specifically or women in general. If you presume that it does represent the real him, and he really is a douche, then judging him on that seems entirely fair, because even if that's only one facet of him, you'd probably rather date someone who isn't even a little douchey. If it's an act designed to impress you, and he's not 14, he may be acting based on faulty information about how 'girls like this', but in that case, it seems fair to judge him based on the fact that he has incredibly poor judgment and could genuinely bring himself to believe that girls would enjoy hanging out with arseholes.
If it walks like a douche...
Also, if one's reaction when they meet someone who appears to be a two-dimensional douche is to think "this might actually be a very complex and interesting person" and attempt to dig for that complex person, they're going to spend a lot of time talking to two-dimensional douches for every genuinely interesting person they meet.
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I'd just like to point out that anyone who thinks that acting like a douchebag will get you girls is saying that this man is correct.
His name is Mystery. He believes that he can attract ladies by acting like a peacock. He does not believe that "negative attention" is a thing which is real. And anyone who supports acting like a douchebag is saying, in direct terms, that they feel this man is intelligent and his advice is worth taking.
Yeah.
...but it does work, he is intelligent, and if that's what you want to do, his advice is probably worth taking.
I mean I'd never use it (partially out of a lack of the self-confidence necessary to put on the front, but more out of respect for any woman I'd have to use it on), but it's difficult to critique its effectiveness when it's a pretty proven system. I mean the most generally romantically successful men and women utilize those techniques on their own during social outings. He may be an asshole, but it's hard to argue with the reality of it all. Men and women both tend to appreciate assertive, confident and entertaining qualities in their partners. Pick-up artists just attempt to exhibit all of these attractive qualities to an extreme.
Of course no one needs to use the system to find romance and there are plenty of outliers (men and women who exhibit none of these characteristics but for whatever reason have no trouble finding partners), but they are far from the norm.
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He is, however, completely wrong about there being no such thing as negative attention.
He's also very wrong about that hat.
OK, I'm assuming it's a hat.
OK, I'm really hoping it's a hat, and not his hair.
Some people, usually at an immature stage of adult development, will adopt a "persona", one they believe will be attractive. They may have hit on this persona themselves, but usually they observe it from others. That persona soon begins to color their personality; wear the mask for long, and you fill out the mask... this leads to that lament of "I don't know where X begins and Y leaves off". The lines can get blurred, but it's a choice to continue. The persona can be dumped (and usually is, if it doesn't work), or the person may outgrow it.
Then again, they may never outgrow it. Especially if it works the way they hope!
So in a lot of respects, douchey is as douchey does. If there's anything else under there, it's being hidden by choice!
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true, but what i was trying to point out there is that you appear to be holding your own speculation (based off of very little information) against them. this seems unfair to me.
I don't think it is unfair to judge people by their actions, or to make deductions about their likely motives based on their actions. Indeed, rather than unfair, I would call it unavoidable. Life is live drama, with no retakes for flubbed lines.
if you find his approach repellent, then it was not appropriate or effective, nor does it demonstrate an ability to communicate. therefor, he has failed in his objective because he miscalculated his strategy. essentially, he made a mistake, this does not make him a bad person.
I don't believe it is possible to separate the action from the actor. A person who behaves in an unpleasant manner is unpleasant. Calling an action a "mistake" does not change it, or mitigate its consequences one iota. We are what we do.*
*Interestingly Sven might be coming to this very conclusion, judging from todays strip. Unless it's the Law Of Conservation Of Angst. Faye transferred her angst to Dora; now Marten has transferred his angst to Sven. Angst Solstice is an anagram of "lactose stings"; a coded reference to Angus (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1123)?
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Yes that is all well and good but you are not getting it.
This man. The man in that picture, the man we are talking about.
One day he woke up, and thought, "I want everyone to start calling me 'Mystery'. That sounds cool!"
And then he told everyone to call him that.
He actually makes his friends call him Mystery.
There is nothing he can say, in any context, that makes up for that.
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Ah, that's a fair point. I think it's probably worse that people tend to like the name, however. They say it makes him intriguing... >_>
And yeah, that's his signature black feather top hat.
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He's getting talked about - I imagine he sees that as a win. What we actually think is way down the list of considerations.
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He's chosen the 'douchebag' front to present because he believes it will be attractive to either you specifically or women in general. If you presume that it does represent a part of the real him, and he really is a douche, then judging him on that seems entirely fair, because even if that's only one facet of him, you'd probably rather date someone who isn't even a little douchey.
Yeah. But then you'd have to become a lesbian.
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He's chosen the 'douchebag' front to present because he believes it will be attractive to either you specifically or women in general. If you presume that it does represent a part of the real him, and he really is a douche, then judging him on that seems entirely fair, because even if that's only one facet of him, you'd probably rather date someone who isn't even a little douchey.
Yeah. But then you'd have to become a lesbian.
This implies that there is no such thing as a Lady Douchebag. And I can say without the slightest hesitation, in all fairness to both genders, that these do exist.
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Or at least it implies that there are no male non-douchebags. To this I say, boo and false!
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Will Sven actually HELP Marten deal with Dora?
Yes. - 41 (47.7%)
No. - 5 (5.8%)
Porridge. - 3 (3.5%)
Pancakes. - 11 (12.8%)
Asps. - 9 (10.5%)
UBMEOD. - 17 (19.8%)
Total Voters: 86
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Angst Solstice?
Once in a blue Moon? :-D
PHWEET!
"KUGAI! Two Minutes, Bad Punning!"
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Hopefully, this won't lead to a Twilight of the team.
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Or at least it implies that there are no male non-douchebags.
Explaining a joke is like dissecting a frog. You understand it better but the frog dies in the process. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitle0t9r68ih)
(Get it? The frog is a joke in this metaphor, and by explaining it you're killing it!) (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging)
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You know, Sven kind of reminds me of Scott Pilgrim. He's a self-absorbed jackass who goes through life facing no personal challenges and experiencing no emotional growth, until one relationship finally makes him see that those "uncomplicated" relationships he had before weren't as uncomplicated as he thought and he was actually hurting people. Also he kind of physically resembles Scott Pilgrim, too.
I wonder if he's entering Finest Hour mode or if he's about to relapse into Precious Little Life.
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I must still be tired, as I thought the last two panels of today's comic was one big one and there were two Martens standing around Sven. I wondered for a whole minute who that Marten clone was and why the other Marten and Sven were not talking about him.
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Is it bad that I'm disappointed that 1. we don't get to see the Hello Kitty belt and 2. Faye's jeans don't look baggy on Marten? I mean, get that that would be a pain in the ass (ha!) to draw, but I was kind of looking forward to that sartorial silliness. Ah well.
As to the Angst Solstice, I think there was more inherent angst in Sven's caginess in panel 3 than there was in his departing line in panel 6. I can understand why he wouldn't want to "share" about his self-imposed celibacy with Marten, though.
I refuse to say the "name" of that creature on page 2 of this thread, but I will say that he has split the difference between hat and hair by wearing a hat apparently made of his own pubes.
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I must still be tired, as I thought the last two panels of today's comic was one big one and there were two Martens standing around Sven. I wondered for a whole minute who that Marten clone was and why the other Marten and Sven were not talking about him.
I think it's probably because the tree has disappeared in the last panel.
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I refuse to say the "name" of that creature on page 2 of this thread, but I will say that he has split the difference between hat and hair by wearing a hat apparently made of his own pubes.
Ya know, some of us actually try to sleep at night...
Thanks for that lovely image. I need to retch now.
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But Switchblade. His name is Mystery.
He chose that name for himself.
HE VOLUNTARILY CALLS HIMSELF MYSTERY. AND HE MAKES HIS FRIENDS CALL HIM THAT.
Yep, he's a pretentious ass. No argument there.
still, it's better than "A Pimp Called Slickback"
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That's "A Pimp NAMED Slickback".
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I refuse to say the "name" of that creature on page 2 of this thread, but I will say that he has split the difference between hat and hair by wearing a hat apparently made of his own pubes.
Ya know, some of us actually try to sleep at night...
Thanks for that lovely image. I need to retch now.
Carl, this is why God or otherwise inspired unnamed hero invented beer.
Just go for the Barley wines to make sure its strong enough to wipe the bad image away with the least amount of fluid.
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He's also very wrong about that hat.
So in a lot of respects, douchey is as douchey does. If there's anything else under there, it's being hidden by choice!
I agree with you 100% about that hat. But then I realize some women will be 'Intrigued' by a guy ballsy enough to look like that.
The human peacock promises self-confidence, entertainment, or something...
And I remembered being out and about at an unGodly early hour on a recent Sunday, and witnessing several women festooned with similar, but even more bizarre extravagances perched atop their crania... evidently their church was having a competition for most wacko chapeau, or they thought their God wanted to see them done up to the nines, or some shit...
Maybe these women are his intended audience/dating pool. :laugh:
Oh, and say it out loud: "Mr. E." it loses a lot of the complete douchery that way... (Or am I giving him unwarranted credit?)
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That's "A Pimp NAMED Slickback".
so it is. my bad.
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Oh, and say it out loud: "Mr. E." it loses a lot of the complete douchery that way... (Or am I giving him unwarranted credit?)
I was thinking "Miss Tree" myself. If I saw that hat, I suspect I'd just point and giggle. My tastes run in other directions (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,3715.msg946835.html#msg946835).
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Wait - I've never heard of this guy. So, is it Mystery, or Mr. E? I'd give him props for the pun if it were the latter.
But we're no relation...
I guess I'm Dr. E?
Just doesn't have the same ring to it...
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So, is it Mystery, or Mr. E?
No one knows it's a *puts on sunglasses* mystery...
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No one knows it's a *puts on sunglasses* mystery...
YEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
(http://movies.popcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/david-caruso-horatio-cain.jpg)
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Oh look, Marten is still a pansy. No surprise there.
Welp. Nothing ever changes. Good to know.
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He's not attacking a frightened person. I distinguish that from being a pansy.
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Aaaaand they make up without actually resolving or bringing up the issues. Again. :| We already knew she had severe relationship stuff, but bullshit is still bullshit. Faye doesn't get a pass because her dad shot himself in front of her and she had a mental breakdown; why does Dora get one because her friends used her to fuck her brother and previous boyfriends fucked her over? Is it because that was other people, not internal, and that somehow makes it just fucking fine for her to be paranoid about the nicest, most faithful guy on the planet? Yes, the use of vulgarity means I'm annoyed that she gets a pass again. :x
By the way, finally read some of the previous conversation. I'd add that as one of those guys who can't get past "talking to friend" mode to "talking to romantic interest" mode also have a hard time seeing why anyone would cheat on someone nice enough to be understanding of that and go out with them.
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I'm glad things didn't go all horribly with yelling and screaming and crying. But all this "oh no, I'm not mad, we'll work this out, blah, blah, blah" won't work. The only reason Dora is feeling all remorseful is because Faye called her out on her shit. Marten doesn't have to go storming in and yelling at her, but if he isn't willing to at least admit when something makes him mad or upsets him, it doesn't matter how much work Dora is willing to put into getting better, it just won't work.
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He did say, "It's something we've gotta fix", though. That implies that they're going to work on the issue in the future, but for this very instant he just wants to reassure her that he's not about to walk away from the relationship.
I find it pretty puzzling that Marten *isn't* mad, but hey, that's how he functions - he was mad, he thought about it, now he's calmly made a decision about it. It might help the situation if Dora had actually been allowed to see firsthand that Marten was mad, but she seems to be finally understanding, thanks to Faye's smackdown, that anger is reasonable in this situation and she was in the wrong, so I think that's what'll make the real difference here.
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Yup, I'll join in on the crowd that's disappointed with this resolution that isn't really one at all. I'm mean, sure, tomorrow's comic might actually have them discuss stuff, but this... sigh.
Dora is just talking all about herself again.
And even when Marten's all "we have something to fix and you needed to listen" she's just all "not mad at me right?"/sad puppy face.
And Marten just lets her get away with it, while "confessing" his "transgressions" or whatever. Le sigh, le sigh.
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I have to say, the art in the most recent strip is very good.
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I'm not sure you guys were reading the dialog in the comic. Me, I'm sure I read Marten say her tendency to blow up is "something we've gotta fix". He nicely, and gently (as is his way) let her know that behavior could NOT continue, while also letting her know he held no grudge. As I believe it was Carl-E who said, a woman with jealously issues should be handled with patience and understanding, NOT by going off on her or summarily dumping her. And Carl's been married over 20 years to a woman not too different from Dora, so I think his advice on this matter should be heeded.
After all, none of us are perfect, we ALL have our issues that could, and probably do, drive our SOs crazy. Should we ALL be dumped because of them? I don't think so.
Don't get me wrong, we all have our deal-breakers, behavior by an SO that would have us hitting the road, especially after the 3rd or 4th time. Obviously Dora's "crazy bitch moments" aren't a deal-breaker for Marten (yet) and hopefully she'll take this latest blowup as incentive to fix the issues that bring out the crazy BEFORE Marten decides he's finally had enough. We shall see.
Remember, Marten is NOT a wimp. It took me awhile to see it, but he's simply more easygoing and patient than most of the QC cast. It takes a LOT more to push him to the edge. Dora hasn't pushed him there yet, and let's hope she's smart enough to NEVER do so.
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I'm surprised her pants fit him that well. Yes, a chubby waistline on a woman can look thin on a man, but not to that degree.
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He's not attacking a frightened person. I distinguish that from being a pansy.
Yeah, a frightened and remorseful person. But then you probably don't regard wallowing in anger and grudge-bearing as necessary for being a real man.
I don't quite understand this torrent of "nothing is resolved" and "Marten should show he's angry". What? He didn't make her grovel enough? Make her feel bad enough? Make it clear enough what a horrible person she is, and how hard she'll have to work to be worthy once more of his affection? If Marten had expressed anger at the original confrontation, that would have been fair enough (though anger is generally bad), but to go away, calm down, and then come back and cold-bloodedly put the boot in would be pretty nasty. Just how much resolution do people expect in one evening? I don't think there's a dog-house in the apartment, so... Marten could make Dora sleep on the couch for a few days or something I suppose?
On a lighter note... I'm sorry Jeph, but there's no way those pants, which look tight-fitting even on Marten's bony bottom, could possibly be Faye's. Even stretch denim can only go so far. On looking at the strip again, I withdraw this.
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Jeph's made the trousers clearly a bit baggy today (even if still not enough), and there were hints before.
And, children, we know you all like a bit of drama in a comic; but actually Marten's doing this right (even down to the humour of the apparently mistimed disclosure). Continued conflict is not the right atmosphere for real resolution.
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so it's a TL/DR kinda night in the forum (for me anyway)
anyways:
good lord Marten is just as weird and paranoid as Dora is. I guess they deserve each other.
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Are you reading the same comic as me?
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I wonder if this is where Dora gets Faye to introduce her to Dr. Corinne?
Nice to know Martens timeing is impeccable as ever. :-D
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I believe Martens timing is only fair. Dora wants full disclosure and probably would have been more irked had he waited or she find out later.
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Ive had panels 1-3 happen a number of times (almost verbatim) with my current girl.
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He did say, "It's something we've gotta fix", though. That implies that they're going to work on the issue in the future, but for this very instant he just wants to reassure her that he's not about to walk away from the relationship.
But when is the future? Is it later that day? Next week? The next time she spazzes out because OMG HE HUGGED HANNELORE (hypothetical scenario, do not analyze)? That future strip may be satisfying, but this one is very much not.
I have to say, the art in the most recent strip is very good.
Lol, true.
After all, none of us are perfect, we ALL have our issues that could, and probably do, drive our SOs crazy. Should we ALL be dumped because of them? I don't think so.
Who said that they should break up? It's just that her behavior is bad, and she should be called on it, not coddled (and NO that does not mean yelling).
He's not attacking a frightened person. I distinguish that from being a pansy.
Yeah, a frightened and remorseful person. But then you probably don't regard wallowing in anger and grudge-bearing as necessary for being a real man.
I don't quite understand this torrent of "nothing is resolved" and "Marten should show he's angry". What? He didn't make her grovel enough? Make her feel bad enough? Make it clear enough what a horrible person she is, and how hard she'll have to work to be worthy once more of his affection?
Who asked him to attack her or make her grovel or- wait, are we talking about the comic still? We who are disappointed would have just preferred something along the lines of "I guess I screwed up,""you certainly did, now lets sleep" (do not analyze, I'm a reader, not a writer, Jim!)
If they actually do start discussing, some time in the next few strips/ within a day of comic time, then it'll be fine. But if it is what it looks like right now, a punt to a later incident at a later date, then I'm disappointed.
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I don't quite understand this torrent of "nothing is resolved" and "Marten should show he's angry". What? He didn't make her grovel enough? Make her feel bad enough? Make it clear enough what a horrible person she is, and how hard she'll have to work to be worthy once more of his affection? If Marten had expressed anger at the original confrontation, that would have been fair enough (though anger is generally bad), but to go away, calm down, and then come back and cold-bloodedly put the boot in would be pretty nasty. Just how much resolution do people expect in one evening? I don't think there's a dog-house in the apartment, so... Marten could make Dora sleep on the couch for a few days or something I suppose?
No, I just wish he would have acknowledged that he was mad. My imaginary ideal conversation would have gone more like following
Dora: So, you're not mad at me?
Marten: I was, but walked around, thought about it, and am not anymore.
Just an acknowledgement that even if things are back on an even keel now, she did upset him. Her crazy bitch mode doesn't just affect her, it has consequences on Marten too, and I think both of them acknowledging that will help Dora in trying to fix it.
As it is, I interpreted it more as Marten being all like, you did something wrong, but it didn't really affect me that much, and now let me list all the things I did wrong (even if they really weren't wrong at all).
I'm glad he is patient and understanding. Dora, Faye and Hannelore all need that in their own ways and even benefit from it. And, he isn't a pansy, he's stood up to Steve (and I think others, but I'm not sure of specific events to cite). He just seems to stand up for others and not himself.
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I still can't get used to people calling trousers pants. It took me a few seconds to realise that disclosure wasn't as bizarre as it sounded. (Probably mainly because over here we'd also refer to jeans as jeans and so forth, so you'd rarely use trousers that much.)
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That discussion may have to take place off-screen. Jeph doesn't seem to be fond of that kind of dialog, doing it realistically would be a long wall of text, and it would run the risk of being boring.
Though there are some concrete loose ends to tie up, like whether Faye is allowed to come back to work in the morning.
Marten sure does cool down fast ...
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I still can't get used to people calling trousers pants.
My grandson lives in Germany with an English and an American parent. He speaks different forms of English to each of them, like when he went to ask his dad if he had a torch, and then asked his mum for a flashlight. But yesterday he told them he wanted them only to speak German to him! (he's 4)
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There are a lot of holes here, and I don't mean in Marten's boxers. They may not need to be filled, but I find this evening's conversation troubling without them.
1) Marten doesn't know Faye blew up on Dora. Without that, would Dora have any remorse? I think she might still have been (wrongfully) righteously indignant when he returned.
2) Dora doesn't know Marten saw Sven, nor that Sven told him she's had nothing but crap in relationships in the past. This is something she's clearly tried to hide, and she may not be cool with the revelation, nor with its source. But it's the entire reason Marten's treating her with kid gloves!
3) Dora may not be aware that Marten was mad. On second thought, the fact that he left for a walk and that Faye told her she may have fucked everything up was probably a clue. So scratch that one. But she doesn't know why he's not mad anymore.
4) Those fucking doe eyes in panel 2. Just pitiful. Sorry, that one slipped out.
Marten's taken the right first step. People in this condition may well blow up again, or worse, meltdown entirely if not handled carefully. The ridiculosity helped.
The night is young. Nobody's getting any sleep for a while, yet...
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1) Marten doesn't know Faye blew up on Dora. Without that, would Dora have any remorse? I think she might still have been (wrongfully) righteously indignant when he returned.
Does it really matter? Dora's posture and expression in panels 1 and 2 clearly show that she's moved from anger to remorse, and Marten would be able to tell - will it matter to him where that remorse came from?
I agree with the second point, though.
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Or at least it implies that there are no male non-douchebags.
Explaining a joke is like dissecting a frog. You understand it better but the frog dies in the process. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitle0t9r68ih)
(Get it? The frog is a joke in this metaphor, and by explaining it you're killing it!) (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging)
It was a bad, dumb frog.
Joke.
It was a bad, dumb joke.
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The comic I read:
Marten knows Dora is remorseful because he can see her sitting on the couch, curled up into almost a fetal position and looking doleful when he walks in, as opposed to how she looked when Fay burst in on her (I say this for you to contrast—Marten doesn't need to see the other, having experienced the times when Dora was sure she wasn't wrong). Also, he might have a clue by her asking "Are you gonna break up with me?" That's an admission of guilt and more—it puts Marten in the driver's seat, because he gets to decide what happens. That's submission, folks.
Then Dora apologizes, and Marten accepts—more submission. I think Akima's right, some of you just won't be satisfied without a good grovel. But it's very clear to me who has 'won' (I'll also remind you anyone who has to utterly win an argument with his or her SO better really enjoy winning, because that will, sooner or later, be all they have). Marten accepts—that's what 'it's okay' means—and immediately attaches a condition for continuing the relationship. Then Dora further acknowledges she was wrong by asking if Marten is 'mad' at her. This is an admission that Dora thinks Marten has a right to be angry, and perhaps that why he's not mad is nowhere near as important as the fact that he's not. That's enough for now.
Then the joke, because, again, Marten loves Dora and wants to keep her more than he wants to win. But I don't think the words "full disclosure" are chosen by accident.
Ladies and gentleman, entities and beings, Marten has clearly 'won' and is in control. At the same time, he's showing Dora how unlike those other assholes he truly is. An Alpha-Goth Grade-A asshole, I'm guessing, would need a grovel, and I don't want to think about what else because I'll start foaming at the mouth, and I already replaced one keyboard this month. And if you need to know how to win an argument with the person you love, this is it. You don't crow, you don't require utter submission, and you make sure it's understood where you want things to go from here without being a tool about it. I don't know if it's well known, but a person in a position of strength shows it by being magnanimous. It's the precarious weakling who requires the genuflect.
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1) Marten doesn't know Faye blew up on Dora. Without that, would Dora have any remorse? I think she might still have been (wrongfully) righteously indignant when he returned.
Does it matter why Dora is remorseful?
2) Dora doesn't know Marten saw Sven, nor that Sven told him she's had nothing but crap in relationships in the past. This is something she's clearly tried to hide, and she may not be cool with the revelation, nor with its source. But it's the entire reason Marten's treating her with kid gloves!
I hope Marten isn't so oblivious that he would ignore finding Dora sitting up, obviously frightened, penitent, and apologetic in the middle of the night waiting for him.
3) Dora may not be aware that Marten was mad. On second thought, the fact that he left for a walk and that Faye told her she may have fucked everything up was probably a clue.
Yes. All this clamouring for Marten to say something like: "I need you to know that you hurt me and made me angry" sounds like something off Dr. Phil.
Edit: Ninja'd! And Raoullefere put it so much better.
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I think we're all making a helluva big assumption here - that this was how Marten was going to deal with things no matter what Dora's reaction was. Maybe if he was a robot, or a character in a George Lucas film, he'd only have one emotional response, but we know that's not the case. He can be angry when the situation calls for it. If he returned home and Dora was still in bitch-mode, I have absolutely no doubt he'd have faced her down because he knew the situation called for it. He understands damn well that they have to deal with things. But he walked in the door, saw his girlfriend curled up in a scared sad little ball on the couch, and reacted the way pretty much any sane person would - by comforting her.
Why, exactly, Dora is feeling sad right now isn't important at this moment in time. Neither is why Marten's not angry. It does not matter in the slightest. What matters is that they are talking, they know that they have a problem to take care of, and that they're not screaming at each other. How on earth could it have helped matters if they were? And if it wouldn't have helped, why is it important that it's NOT a problem?
Obviously this issue isn't finished between them. He outright said as much. But I cannot possibly see how things would be improved right now if Marten told Dora that he was mad at her because she was a bitch. He's responded perfectly in-character by dealing with this in a nice way. And now that we know how much it really does affect him, he'll definitely make sure things are resolved. There's going to be a lot of talking in the future between them, possibly therapy, possibly drive-by water-balloonings of Dora's ex-boyfriends (great stress reliever). But we absolutely could not have expected any more to have happened in this comic without it being ridiculously over-the-top.
And, as I end my rant and put down the Useless Broom Made Entirely Out Of Dicks, one final note:
I did chuckle to see how baggy the ass of Faye/Marten's pants were in panel 1. A nice, subtle touch. :D
Edit:
And I've been top-trumped by Akima and Raoullefere. Darn your speedy-typing fingers! :P But I think between the three of us we got our point across.
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Yep, Raoullefere did put it best-Marten won, and he didn't feel the need to rub Dora's face in it. It's enough that she realizes she was dead wrong, admits as much, and that things have to change for their relationship to continue. I think Marten handled it right.
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I disagree that Marten "won" - because there wasn't a competition. Using the term "win" at all is a major problem in this discussion.
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i'd just like to say that it amuses me that dora's panties match her hair. can we all at least agree on that?
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Are you reading the same comic as me as I am?
Yes.
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Grammar vs idiom - no winners there, either!
Language is what is used; grammar is a post hoc attempt to rationalise it, which can be useful while learning.
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...(I'll also remind you anyone who has to utterly win an argument with his or her SO better really enjoy winning, because that will, sooner or later, be all they have).... And if you need to know how to win an argument with the person you love, this is it. You don't crow, you don't require utter submission, and you make sure it's understood where you want things to go from here without being a tool about it. I don't know if it's well known, but a person in a position of strength shows it by being magnanimous. It's the precarious weakling who requires the genuflect.
How can anyone that wise not like dogs?
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...drive-by water-balloonings of Dora's ex-boyfriends...
Can QC just be that from now on?
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That could be fun for the next few pages. Not to mention therapeutic for Dora.
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I disagree that Marten "won" - because there wasn't a competition. Using the term "win" at all is a major problem in this discussion.
Hence all my little quote marks. But you're wrong; there is a competition, a struggle between Dora and her insecurity for her future. Marten (with the aid of an opening sortie by Faye's Furies) just won a battle for the former; now Dora has to take the field, because the war's just starting. I really doubt insecurity's going down easy, either.
All this clamouring for Marten to say something like: "I need you to know that you hurt me and made me angry" sounds like something off Dr. Phil.
Well said. Of course, Dr. Phil definitely makes me foam at the mouth. Oprah's got much to answer for…someday. If certain portions of her anatomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Million_Little_Fibers) don't get her first.
Meanwhile, may I say possibly Jeph's best damn 'drama' strip ever? Both the scripting and the art? Managing both to do a little tearjerking (from Akima and Tergon, of course—never me) and still deliver a punchline? Whoops, too late, I did.
Now I'm off to take my grumping pills. I've clearly become much too cheerful…
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Meanwhile, may I say possibly Jeph's best damn 'drama' strip ever? Both the scripting and the art? Managing both to do a little tearjerking (from Akima and Tergon, of course—never me) and still deliver a punchline? Whoops, too late, I did.
No, I just had... something in my eye.
It's nothing.
Don't look at me.
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Now I'm off to take my grumping pills. I've clearly become much too cheerful…
Heeee. Love it. I seem to have a never-ending supply of those...
Yeah, as someone who is insecure in a very different way to Dora (no going off over stupid things, just waking my partner up in the middle of the night to make him re-iterate that he does want to be with me, even though I'm mental), I can tell you someone looking like Dora does in the first panel is in quite a lot of pain, and there is no need to be a wanker on top of it.
Sure, I would have liked him to actually say "you have got to get a handle on yourself, walk away until you think clearly, something" but his reaction was still fine and a damn sight better than staying angry - the kind of angry that would probably be the cold eyes + leaving her on the couch to go to bed without talking, is what I imagine of Marten. Could be wrong.
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It's funny, if you listened to the right people on these forums, you could learn everything you need to about how to have a healthy relationship. There's some solid Gold advice and observations being shared here.
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It's funny, if you listened to the right people on these forums, you could learn everything you need to about how to have a healthy relationship. There's some solid Gold advice and observations being shared here.
Unfortunately, it's often lost amongst the sea of people who obviously have no experience.
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Grammar vs idiom - no winners there, either!
Language is what is used; grammar is a post hoc attempt to rationalise it
I disagree, but respect your opinion :)
I feel that "me" vs. "I" is a question of grammar, and not an idiom. If you said "scared to death" and I corrected it to "frightened to an unsettling degree," then we could argue that it was idiom vs. semantics.
While I admit that I was in kind of a douche-y mood when I posted that wholly unnecessary correction... I still think it's correct ;-)
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Unfortunately, it's often lost amongst the sea of people who obviously have no experience.
Just listen to us folks clinging desperately to our Useless Brooms Made Entirely Of Dicks.
We know what we're talking about.
Or we're completely full of shit, I forget...
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It's funny, if you listened to the right people on these forums, you could learn everything you need to about how to have a healthy relationship. There's some solid Gold advice and observations being shared here.
Unfortunately, it's often lost amongst the sea of people who obviously have no experience.
yeah, that's the part I was leaving out.
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I believe Martens timing is only fair. Dora wants full disclosure and probably would have been more irked had he waited or she find out later.
I can't even think of any possible way his timing could be better, unless Dora is judging by very different criteria [annoyed at the _inability_ to turn it into more drama, either before or by finding out later]
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Unfortunately, it's often lost amongst the sea of people who obviously have no experience.
Just listen to us folks clinging desperately to our Useless Brooms Made Entirely Of Dicks.
We know what we're talking about.
Or we're completely full of shit, I forget...
I would say that the noble members of the Order of the Dickbroom are the ones dispensing the most sage wisdom, to mine eyes.
There are dudes I know who tried the "I'm not a pansy" response and called their SOs out and made them grovel. Also girls. Inevitably, those relationships ended pretty quick after that.
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He did say, "It's something we've gotta fix", though. That implies that they're going to work on the issue in the future, but for this very instant he just wants to reassure her that he's not about to walk away from the relationship.
I find it pretty puzzling that Marten *isn't* mad, but hey, that's how he functions - he was mad, he thought about it, now he's calmly made a decision about it. It might help the situation if Dora had actually been allowed to see firsthand that Marten was mad, but she seems to be finally understanding, thanks to Faye's smackdown, that anger is reasonable in this situation and she was in the wrong, so I think that's what'll make the real difference here.
Y'all ever been in love? Ever been REALLY mad at the woman/man/thing you love deeply, for whatever reason? So mad that you storm off in the middle of the night? Then, when you come back, you're halfway ready to ream her/him/it out? And there she/he/it sits, looking sad and forlorn because they've made you so mad, and you suddenly remember all the reasons why you love her/him/it in the first place, and you can't possibly STAY mad at her/him/it.
THAT is what his happening here.
But when is the future? Is it later that day? Next week? The next time she spazzes out because OMG HE HUGGED HANNELORE (hypothetical scenario, do not analyze)? That future strip may be satisfying, but this one is very much not.
"The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step."
EDIT: Oh, and Raoullefere: (CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP) Good job.
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I gotta stop posting before I get enough sleep.
OK, I actually had a point in the first of those two points in my last post. I agree with Raoullefere, Akima, Tergon et al that it doesn't really matter that Faye helped Dora get to the point where Marten found her, the important thing was that she was at that point. I agree.
My point was simply that Faye got Dora to that point, being one of the best friends there could be, one who isn't afraid to call a friend on their bullshit. Without her, Dora may have reached that point on her own, lying awake after Marten had left, realizing what she'd done, and would still have been there waiting pitifully for him to get back and dump her / dump on her.
Then again, maybe not. She could easily have drifted off upset. Had Marten woken her upon his arrival, she may well have still been in "rawr" mode. With a good night's sleep, she may have realized what she'd done and become contrite, but that's pretty doubtful - she probably wouldn't have had a good night's sleep if she went to bed upset, and would've been in a foul mood upon waking. Things would not have gone nearly as well...
Marten owes Faye a lot for bringing Dora quickly and efficiently to this point, and he doesn't even know it. Not yet, at least. But hey, what are friends for?
There's one other thing that's been bothering me since yesterday's comic. In the second panel, Marten says "OK, I think I know how to handle this Dora thing now." It's taken a day (nearly two), but I pinpointed it. It's the word "handle" that's bothering me. It just doesn't sound like Marten - it sounds manipulative, like "OK, I'll go and pour on the patended Marten Reed "Aw shucks" charm, and all will be well".
OK, I think I understand where she's coming from.
OK, I think we can work through this.
OK, so she's not really psychotic.
OK, I won't have to dump her ass. Sorry, that's another thread...
But "handlie this Dora thing" just bothers me for some reason. You handle stress, or grief, or other emotions, they're internal. When it involves another person, it's not handling.
It's helping.
[/wall o' text]
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I almost agree... but I think the key issue here is that Marten really does have to "Handle" Dora right now. In much the same way you would, if you'll excuse the metaphor, handle a small injured animal. You need to help it, you need to take care of it, but to achieve this you first need to make sure it won't panic and lash out, hurting you or itself. As much as I do feel sympathy for Dora, particularly now that the predicted crash has arrived is here, the simple fact is that this is how she's behaving. Not rationally, not logically, but running off pain and emotion, and that's how Marten has to treat her if he wants to help.
I suppose in a very broad sense of the term, he is manipulating her. He's guiding her and helping her to move toward a resolution it seems unlikely she'd manage on her own. And in doing so he's treating her with kid gloves... not because he may want to, but because if he doesn't, it could so easily blow up in his face. I saw it as a particularly good turn of phrase for this reason - Marten has recognized the problem, and has chosen the manner in which he plans to face the problem. Now, the problem is Dora's trust issues, yes, but as long as she's running on emotion, she's letting herself be ruled by those issues. And if she's being ruled by the issues, then she's personifying the issues. In a very direct way, Dora is the problem, at least until Marten manages to get through to her. And, as such, he has to handle her carefully until he's dealing not with the bundle of pain and emotions, but with the lady he loves.
That's how I took "handle this Dora thing" to mean. Not that he's going to control and manipulate her, but that he's going to take this slowly and gently. More of a Handle With Care, if you will. And the fact that Marten not only recognizes that he should deal with this problem carefully, but actually does plan to deal with it, is something I see as a tremendous leap forward for them.
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He did say, "It's something we've gotta fix", though. That implies that they're going to work on the issue in the future, but for this very instant he just wants to reassure her that he's not about to walk away from the relationship.
I find it pretty puzzling that Marten *isn't* mad, but hey, that's how he functions - he was mad, he thought about it, now he's calmly made a decision about it. It might help the situation if Dora had actually been allowed to see firsthand that Marten was mad, but she seems to be finally understanding, thanks to Faye's smackdown, that anger is reasonable in this situation and she was in the wrong, so I think that's what'll make the real difference here.
Y'all ever been in love? Ever been REALLY mad at the woman/man/thing you love deeply, for whatever reason? So mad that you storm off in the middle of the night? Then, when you come back, you're halfway ready to ream her/him/it out? And there she/he/it sits, looking sad and forlorn because they've made you so mad, and you suddenly remember all the reasons why you love her/him/it in the first place, and you can't possibly STAY mad at her/him/it.
THAT is what his happening here.
Yeah, you're right - upon further reflection, that is exactly the most plausible emotional response in the situation from a well-balanced character like Marten.
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I'm on the side that feels that this wasn't handled well but I recognize that it could be because Jeph just might not want to write a lengthy and wordy comic for this resolution.
The only reason I disagree with how it was handled (and a few of the posters here) was solely out of personal experience. Every woman I've ever been with who did awful things or had insecurity issues went right back to behaving that way when treated with the kid gloves. It wasn't until the issue was completely explored, sometimes right at the height of an episode, that they began bettering themselves.
But again, that was personal experience. I recognize that there are unique people out there and, more than anything else, I recognize that this is a comic. If Jeph wants to write that Dora becomes a better person after just this, that's fine. Perhaps Faye got to her. That alone could plausibly suffice as a wake up call since I don't think anyone spoke to her like that before.
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I almost agree... but I think the key issue here is that Marten really does have to "Handle" Dora right now.
<regretful *snip*, 'cause it's so good>
Thank you Tergon. That helps a lot. He does have to "handle" her until she's stable, and able to deal with what's happening to her. Whether she was contrite or psychotic (or asleep) when he got back, he'd have to adjust his approach until he could reach the real Dora, and not the bundle of pain and hurt.
Now please, stop pointing that broom at me. You never know if it's loaded...
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May I add that 'to handle' is often an idiom synonymous with 'to deal with' or 'to approach'? As in "I can handle that" or even "I've got a handle on it." (Swats casually at the idiom-folk with his duplicate UBMEOD to quiet them for a moment). I read that line as Marten saying "Okay, I think I know how I'm going to deal with these meltdowns Dora's been having," said meltdowns being the 'Dora thing,' which is why that's not a good word to bandy about too often.
I'll agree with Tergon that Marten does need to 'handle' Dora in the other sense; as he said, to help her. But I don't really think that's what he meant when Marten said that to Sven. Of course, he may be attempting to become more laconic, and thus make every word that can do double-duty.
(On that note, assuming Marten knows, as do I, that thing was originally used to mean 'meeting,' 'Dora thing' takes on an entirely new nuance, and Marten's laconic abilities quickly shoot up to EPIC.)
Edit: Y'all ever been in love? Ever been REALLY mad at the woman/man/thing you love deeply, for whatever reason? So mad that you storm off in the middle of the night? Then, when you come back, you're halfway ready to ream her/him/it out? And there she/he/it sits, looking sad and forlorn because they've made you so mad, and you suddenly remember all the reasons why you love her/him/it in the first place, and you can't possibly STAY mad at her/him/it.
THAT is what his happening here.
Yes. That's what I meant about this being some of Jeph's best dramatic work, and why Tergon's crying, and I would be, if I weren't such a hard-ass. Been there, done that, from both positions.
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Yeah, as someone who is insecure in a very different way to Dora (no going off over stupid things, just waking my partner up in the middle of the night to make him re-iterate that he does want to be with me, even though I'm mental), I can tell you someone looking like Dora does in the first panel is in quite a lot of pain, and there is no need to be a wanker on top of it.
Gotta agree with you there. My wife has similar insecurity issues. Every time we have a fight, she becomes terrified that I'm going to become fed up and leave her. The cool-down of every fight, therefore, must include me reassuring her that I love her and being calm and gentle with her, or else she'll spend the whole night awake and freaked out. It's actually been good for my growth as a person, as I'm normally very aggressive and brusque and my wife's insecurities mean I'm having to learn to be more sensitive.
But yeah, coming in still mad at someone with insecurity issues after you've cooled down from the initial fight? Not a great idea. Not if you want the relationship to last or the person to heal.
Shalom.
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The comic I read:
Marten knows Dora is remorseful because he can see her sitting on the couch, curled up into almost a fetal position and looking doleful when he walks in....Also, he might have a clue by her asking "Are you gonna break up with me?" That's an admission of guilt and more—it puts Marten in the driver's seat, because he gets to decide what happens. That's submission, folks....Then Dora apologizes, and Marten accepts—more submission....Marten accepts—that's what 'it's okay' means—and immediately attaches a condition for continuing the relationship. Then Dora further acknowledges she was wrong by asking if Marten is 'mad' at her. This is an admission that Dora thinks Marten has a right to be angry, and perhaps that why he's not mad is nowhere near as important as the fact that he's not. That's enough for now.....At the same time, he's showing Dora how unlike those other assholes he truly is. An Alpha-Goth Grade-A asshole, I'm guessing, would need a grovel...
Raoullefere, you posted a theory in last week's thread that I really agreed with - namely, Dora is a master of the self-fulfilling prophesy. Relationship-wise, she sets herself up to fail, deals with a crappy relationship (while further lowering her self-esteem), and then watches as the relationship fails (presumably this involves being dumped by the guy). You pointed out that she started this relationship with Marten with the same idea in mind (because Marten was obviously attracted to Faye)...but then Marten was different. And now she doesn't know what to do, so she chooses to lash out in a preemptive "hurt them before they hurt me" fashion.
I really like that theory. I also think it really fits in neatly with what Sven told us about Dora's dating history. And if that ends up being right, that's why I'm bothered by her in today's comic.
The whole thing reeked of her expectations. I have no doubt that Faye's comment sparked something in Dora (like the realization that now the relationship might be ending, and Dora really doesn't want it to end) and so she's sitting there, waiting for Marten to come home so that the other shoe can drop and he'll break up with her and she just move on with her life, just like she was expecting.
I read her dialog completely different. It wasn't submission to me, it was resignation. She started off the conversation by flat-out asking if Marten was gonna break up with her - she expected it. When he told her no, she immediately apologized. To me, this was her trying to salvage the relationship, but she still can't believe Marten's not gonna get mad at her, or do something to her, or whatever - she has to verify again that he's not mad at her. His behavior is not what she expected.
Unfortunately, I also don't think Dora was really hearing what he was saying ("we need to fix this"/"you should have listened"). I don't think she really heard that because she was too wrapped up in her own unhappiness/expectations/whatever. Marten's honesty is something she finally heard - and I really hope she appreciates that in him, timing or no - but I think she focused in a bit more there because she was expecting to hear something...more there, maybe.
I think she keeps looking for signs that Marten is like those other guys, and she keeps not getting them, and so she has to imagine them because she can't fathom that there are guys out there who would treat her much better than past boyfriends. I think that the way tonight's conversation went, it was about Dora's expecting that sort of behavior from Marten and not getting it, and not really listening to what he was saying - at first.
I can see Marten thinking there's some resolution from this conversation, but I'm not convinced there is on Dora's side. Yet.
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There is a time in the disagreement with the SO where you simply have to say the words so that things are on the table. Then you get the opportunity to reflect on what you've said and done.
After that you've got to reaffirm that the words are there, what it means and then look at how you're actually gonna do it.
That isn't going to happen when you're mad, nor is it reasonable to expect a very abrupt personality shift. Working through problems is most definitely not a case of going "Dammit, that was the problem, now I've got it solved and it will never happen again!" Magical thinking isn't helpful, and the work needed to work through a signifigant psychological issue is certainly not going to happen in the space of the couple of hours that the last few strips have covered, or by one person's unilateral action.
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I read her dialog completely different. It wasn't submission to me, it was resignation. She started off the conversation by flat-out asking if Marten was gonna break up with her - she expected it. When he told her no, she immediately apologized. To me, this was her trying to salvage the relationship, but she still can't believe Marten's not gonna get mad at her, or do something to her, or whatever - she has to verify again that he's not mad at her. His behavior is not what she expected.
That's one way to look at it, but on the other hand, examine all of the people on this forum saying he should break up with her. Even though I think that sentiment is somewhat unrealistic and only a little bit cruel, it is a sentiment that is held by rational people. Dora thinking that Marten's going to break up with her isn't necessarily because of her past boyfriends, it could just as easily (I'd argue more easily) be because she realizes that she actually did do something horrible and that if Marten was himself in a particularly irrational mood (as he might've been had he not run into Sven) he might actually break up with her over this. Plus, Faye did directly imply that Dora might have already fucked up the relationship. I think Dora's expectations in this case are self-reflective. I used to date a girl who in situations like this would usually say something along the lines of "I'd break up with me." I think that's what Dora's doing.
Unfortunately, I also don't think Dora was really hearing what he was saying ("we need to fix this"/"you should have listened"). I don't think she really heard that because she was too wrapped up in her own unhappiness/expectations/whatever. Marten's honesty is something she finally heard - and I really hope she appreciates that in him, timing or no - but I think she focused in a bit more there because she was expecting to hear something...more there, maybe.
Her last line included the phrase "If I'm going to work on being a crazy bitch". I think that after Faye yelling at her, she's probably already become completely aware that she's going to have to work on her jealousy issues, and that's why she's not reacting to that part in particular. The only parts of the entire conversation that she hasn't had in her own head a million times already are the part where Marten's not mad and the part where he's wearing Faye's pants. Admittedly, it would probably be wise of her to say something along the lines of "I know I have to work on my issues and I'm going to before it tears us apart", but I think that she was so surprised at Marten's lack of anger that it dominated her immediate mind at the moment. It's not that she's not thinking it, it's just that it's not the first thing that comes out of her mouth.
I think she keeps looking for signs that Marten is like those other guys, and she keeps not getting them, and so she has to imagine them because she can't fathom that there are guys out there who would treat her much better than past boyfriends. I think that the way tonight's conversation went, it was about Dora's expecting that sort of behavior from Marten and not getting it, and not really listening to what he was saying - at first.
I think the only time she does that is reflexively, like when she saw Marten and Faye in their underwear. Her mind immediately went to "I've seen this before." She has a habit of jumping to conclusions but in order for the relationship to have lasted this long, the logical part of her brain must actually believe that Marten is different. She's speaking from that part of her brain now, and a guy breaking up with her over something she did which was horrible but probably not horrible enough to break up with her over is kind of way down the list of bad things guys have done with her when you compare it to being cheated on or being treated like shit. Consider that if her exes were as bad as Sven says, more than a few of them probably would have hit her in a situation like this. She's not flinching, she's not wincing. She's not expecting Marten to break up with her because she thinks he's like the others, she's expecting him to break up with her because she thinks it would be justified.
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I think Dora's expectations in this case are self-reflective. I used to date a girl who in situations like this would usually say something along the lines of "I'd break up with me." I think that's what Dora's doing....
...She's not expecting Marten to break up with her because she thinks he's like the others, she's expecting him to break up with her because she thinks it would be justified.
Snipping a bit to just focus on these two parts. I very strongly feel that Dora's still within the scope of her self-fulfilling prophesy.
If in the past she's had manipulative guys cheat on her and then convince her it's her fault they just had to do it, I'm quite certain that would stick with a person. So, if Dora's been half-expecting Marten to break up with her (probably because of Faye), then it stands to follow that she'd see him reacting the way her exes have reacted in the past - she's half trying to guide him down that path because, as far as she knows, it's the only path there is.
That's not to say that Marten won't be a help to her, because I think he will be, it's just that Dora isn't entirely able to hear what he's saying to her because she herself isn't there yet. She is still expecting the worst of the situation because that's all she's been conditioned for.
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I refuse to say the "name" of that creature on page 2 of this thread, but I will say that he has split the difference between hat and hair by wearing a hat apparently made of his own pubes.
Ya know, some of us actually try to sleep at night...
Thanks for that lovely image. I need to retch now.
Hee. Sorry? I am occasionally descriptive to an unpleasant degree. Let's just say I'm fun to have at the dinner table.
i'd just like to say that it amuses me that dora's panties match her hair. can we all at least agree on that?
I do agree with that! :-D
As an aside, I think that Marten went "full disclosure" on Dora at that point while she was contrite and calm to 1. get it out of the way and 2. avoid her blowing up again. He may need to work on his timing, but his apparent ill-timing here works in his favor.
I read that line as Marten saying "Okay, I think I know how I'm going to deal with these meltdowns Dora's been having," said meltdowns being the 'Dora thing,' which is why that's not a good word to bandy about too often.
That's how I read it as well -- that Marten is going to try and handle the problem Dora's having, not Dora herself (although, taken literally, I'm sure she'd be happy to be handled once she's in a better mood).
Looking forward to hearing (or hearing about) the rest of . . . the conversation.
Page two . . .
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<wall o'text removed>
Ahhhhh. I think I got it now. You're thinking the next move for Dora is that she's going to find some way (unconsciously, subconsciously or whatever) to sabotage the relationship. In essence, "ramp it up".
Which means DoraTai might still be in the cards... <eeeewwwwwwww>
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Who will Marten run into next?
Angus. - 1 (1.9%)
Hannelore. - 7 (13%)
Steve. - 4 (7.4%)
Faye. - 2 (3.7%)
Dora. - 9 (16.7%) <--- Winner Winner Chicken Dinner
JEPH! (Talk about META) - 15 (27.8%)
Pintsize - 5 (9.3%)
Someone wielding the UBMEOD. - 11 (20.4%)
Total Voters: 54
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his apparent ill-timing here works in his favor.
It wasn't ill timing at all. Disclosure was sensible, even if trivial; and it gave Dora the opportunity to criticise Marten a little, which meant that their talk wasn't so one-sided, and so started to rebuild Dora's confidence.
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I think Dora's expectations in this case are self-reflective. I used to date a girl who in situations like this would usually say something along the lines of "I'd break up with me." I think that's what Dora's doing....
...She's not expecting Marten to break up with her because she thinks he's like the others, she's expecting him to break up with her because she thinks it would be justified.
Snipping a bit to just focus on these two parts. I very strongly feel that Dora's still within the scope of her self-fulfilling prophesy.
If in the past she's had manipulative guys cheat on her and then convince her it's her fault they just had to do it, I'm quite certain that would stick with a person. So, if Dora's been half-expecting Marten to break up with her (probably because of Faye), then it stands to follow that she'd see him reacting the way her exes have reacted in the past - she's half trying to guide him down that path because, as far as she knows, it's the only path there is.
That's not to say that Marten won't be a help to her, because I think he will be, it's just that Dora isn't entirely able to hear what he's saying to her because she herself isn't there yet. She is still expecting the worst of the situation because that's all she's been conditioned for.
I think I see where you're coming from, and I think it's a possibility, but I don't think it's a likely one.
Sven's said that all of Dora's previous boyfriends were douchebags, but he actually specified the particular type of douchebag. He said that they were all alpha-goth types. To me, this means one of two things: Either they were trying to be the alpha-goth (in other words, the most goth they could be), or they were alpha types who were also goth. The first one is kind of cartoonish and silly and so I'm going to assume it's the second one. I'd have to imagine most of Dora's exes have been misanthropes, possibly sadists, who thrive on domination and demand to be viewed as the superior one in any relationship. In other words, when they cheat on a girl and tell her it's her fault, they don't say it's because she's a crazy bitch who drove him into the arms of another woman, they cheated on her because she's inadequate. She's not good enough in bed, she doesn't suck his dick enough, the other girl doesn't cry when he sticks it up her ass, he's still going to fuck her because he can juggle both and dammit she should be glad he still gives her the time of day for a quick fuck whenever he says so. (Sorry if that was offensive to anyone Sorry that was so horribly offensive period, that's not how I actually feel, I'm just writing the mindset). When they get caught, they don't try to hide it, and if she can't "deal with it" then the relationship is over. On their terms.
From there, it has to be apparent to Dora that she's dealing with a different situation. Marten doesn't demean her in public or in private, he makes jokes at his own expense and he's okay when she's the one suggesting sex (or suggesting not having sex, as the case was when they first started seeing each other).
I think that her paranoia is a lot more generalized than a self-fulfilling prophecy. Since it's apparent that Marten's not the same as the other guys she's dated, she probably doesn't think that the relationship is going to happen exactly the same way. She's just been left with extreme levels of paranoia from her previous relationships that are causing her to write a new self-fulfilling prophecy with details that are actually pertinent to the current situation. She believes that Marten's going to leave her for Faye, and the jealousy she's exhibits is causing friction which could, at high enough levels, succeed in driving Marten away, and presumably into the arms of Faye if she was willing.
Lastly, I still feel that today's strip features Dora while not in the throes of her issues. The reason she feels that Marten is going to leave her is because a lot of guys would. They might regret it later, but that soon after someone does something that horrible to you (and to your best friend), there's a tendency to overreact, or to panic. He went out for a walk to calm down and try to put it all in perspective, but in the end it was only an outside perspective that actually helped him figure anything out. In an alternate universe, say one where he ran into Tai and she was baked enough to try to talk Marten into leaving Dora (more Dora for her), he might've actually ended up breaking up with her. Her issues caused her to snap, but the reason she thinks Marten's going to leave her is because it's actually a possibility.
If Dora was acting the way she would've in previous relationships (or worse actually trying to guide the relationship down the same path) she probably would've reacted with deflated sadness to the scene of Marten and Faye in their underwear rather than anger, and when Marten walked back in, she probably would've been bracing herself for a lot worse.
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his apparent ill-timing here works in his favor.
It wasn't ill timing at all. Disclosure was sensible, even if trivial; and it gave Dora the opportunity to criticise Marten a little, which meant that their talk wasn't so one-sided, and so started to rebuild Dora's confidence.
Indeed, hence my use of the word "apparent."
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Who will Marten run into next?
Angus. - 1 (1.9%)
Hannelore. - 7 (13%)
Steve. - 4 (7.4%)
Faye. - 2 (3.7%)
Dora. - 9 (16.7%) <--- Winner Winner Chicken Dinner[/u]
JEPH! (Talk about META) - 15 (27.8%)
Pintsize - 5 (9.3%)
Someone wielding the UBMEOD. - 11 (20.4%)
Total Voters: 54
You want Fries with that?
:-D
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You want Fries with that?
:-D
And a coke.
Tai could help her out; I'm sure she'd be happy to give Dora a good tongue-lashing. :angel:
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Pintsize was creepy, of course, but not damagingly so.
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<wall o'text removed>
Ahhhhh. I think I got it now. You're thinking the next move for Dora is that she's going to find some way (unconsciously, subconsciously or whatever) to sabotage the relationship. In essence, "ramp it up".
Which means DoraTai might still be in the cards... <eeeewwwwwwww>
If Tai lets her do that, she will be the Biggest Douchebag in the history of QC. She will out-douche even Sven's early days. Nothing will compare.
I mean, talk about people that Marten honestly does need to have a word with. Tai needs to get Fucking Told.
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I may have expressed some dislike for how this situation is being handled. But, then I got to panel 5 (the I love you panel) and all dislike went out the door. It's well drawn and adorable and I want a big, giant copy of it.
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Now Pintsize... Pintsize deserves the angry-face. Note that Marten is not afraid to initiate the "I love you. I love you too." exchange. I also can't resist saying that Dora looks adorable in the last two panels. Brrrr... The sugar-rush comes... Great drawing too.
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There. This is what I was waiting to see before commenting on the last few strips: Marten and Dora finally talking over the trust issue, and what seems to have caused it, like mature adults.
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SAVE ME FROM THE WEE PILLOWS!
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SAVE ME FROM THE WEE PILLOWS!
Now is not the time to bring up Dora's modest endowment.
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Weak. Way to be a total wuss, Marten.
Jeph threw away the perfect opportunity to break those two up -- something that's been overdue for years.
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*Reads Econoclast's post*
Let's see...flame-resistant clothing? Check. Helmet? Check. Extra-large popcorn? Check.
This...is gonna be good.
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Oh, I'm not trying to start a flame war. I just think that it's stuff like this that makes people stop caring about Marten/Dora and want to focus on ancillary characters instead. Personally, I haven't seen Marten as an interesting character since he and Dora got together -- and I've always found Dora to be a poor substitute for Faye anyway. Despite all of her character development, in the end she's just a bland goth chick with stupid girlish insecurities. All of her problems seem pithy and shallow in comparison to legitimate issues like Faye's PTSD, or Hannelore's OCD, or Marigold's social anxiety. Her androgynous looks don't hold a candle to the other female characters, and all of her wit invariably falls back on sexual innuendo or extremely tedious lesbian undertones. Humor-wise, she brings about as much to the table as Pintsize -- just a series of running gags that have lost most of their luster over the years. If there had to be a culling of QC characters, I'd vote her as the first to go (well, second -- Pintsize would be the first).
In short, she sucks.
... 'kay, that last bit was flame-bait. Sorry.
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Hm, going by the last panel, Dora's apparently back to her old self.
And if Econoclast's post is any indication, seems he only wants bland, predictable characters. Also seems he wanted Marten and Faye to get together.
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Actually it seems to me like he considers Dora to be bland and predictable. I think you're right about him shipping Faye and Marten though.
Too bad Marten's wrong for Faye-he can't keep up the witty banter like Angus can. And Marten would NEVER in a MILLION years have been this bold (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1724). It's not in his nature.
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All of her problems seem pithy and shallow in comparison to legitimate issues like Faye's PTSD, or Hannelore's OCD, or Marigold's social anxiety.
Yes. They certainly seem less... intense. They are also no less crippling. And, rather than preventing a relationship, they snuck up and sabatoged an otherwise good relationship.
This is what makes it a slice-of-life comic. It's actually normal to have baggage.
Her androgynous looks don't hold a candle to the other female characters
To each his own.
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Hm, going by the last panel, Dora's apparently back to her old self.
And if Econoclast's post is any indication, seems he only wants bland, predictable characters. Also seems he wanted Marten and Faye to get together.
Actually, reading his post it seems his issue with Dora is that she's too normal and acts well-adjusted most of the time. Apparently a string of psuedo-abusive relationships is not an actual problem, it's just superficial. Uh-huh. Yep.
As for his apparent latent Faye/Marten shipping, that just makes me laugh and tell him to cry some more, because that possibility is having nails driven into its coffin every day, and I thank God for it. QC is one of the really good dramatic comics because, unlike many dramas, it doesn't rely on unresolved sexual tension. When tension comes up in this universe, people have to do what they do in real life: work it out and move past it.
And hey, guess what? If you let it sit around the way Marty and Faye did before the Talk? You will not get to be with that person! And they will move the fuck on! Like Faye is finally doing and Marty did a while ago!
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I agree with Econoclast to some degree... not a big Dora fan like most people are. But I mean, not everyone has to have big intense problems, like Faye with her dad killing himself in front of her or Hanners bad OCD. While Dora's issues are considerably less severe than Faye's, they are still legitimate I suppose. I don't like the way Marten handled Dora when he got home. Someone said it's a natural reaction for him to get home, see her in an almost fetal position looking sad, and want to comfort her. But if I did something like what Dora did, it doesn't matter how puppy eyed I made myself look. My boyfriend would be giving me the silent treatment for a looong time. Marten hasn't done anything to make Dora distrustful like her old boyfriends did. I don't think it's fair to bring old baggage into new relationships, especially since before they even started dating, Dora knew Marten pretty well and knew that he wasn't the cheating type.
Also, I don't really think Econoclast is trying to ship Faye and Marten... it's not like Marten has to either be with Faye or Dora ONLY. Personally I don't think either of them are right for him. I was kind of hoping this would break those 2 up too, but it's not my choice!
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*shrugs*
We all have our favourite characters, so it follows we all have our own least favourite. Some people are just slightly more... vehement... in their dislike. As far as making Dora an interesting character, I actually think that making her more "normal" than the others is what makes her more interesting. Certainly she's got her share of issues, and her family is anything but ordinary, but she handles things like a normal person would. But like everyone, she has her little problems, and we're finding out more what they are. If in the past you found Dora to be boring, maybe as we explore her history you'll find her more interesting. As for me, I genuinely like her as a character, so I have no trouble with exploring her a bit more.
As far as comparing Dora's issues with those of Faye, Hannelore or Marigold goes, my initial response is to comment that QC is not a competition for Which Is the Craziest Chick Of All? though at times it may seem like it. Yeah, okay, they might have better reasons to act a little crazy sometimes, but that definitely doesn't mean that Dora has no good reason. If anything, the fact that she's seemed so normal up to now, when we find out she's been sitting atop a mountain of crazy, is something alarming all on its own.
I'm reminded of an old novel I once read: The Fog, by James Herbert (none of the shitty movies you're thinking of were based on it). Basically a chemical weapon gets loose, blows into London as a cloud of fog, and if you inhale it, it destroys parts of your brain and makes you go completely insane. In one scene of the story, the (immune) protagonist is exploring London, seeing people doing all kinds of crazy shit, killing themselves and each other, gibbering madly, crashing cars and lighting fires... and the most chilling part is seeing people who are dressed in suits and ties, lining up at bus stops, chatting to one another, going to work, and ignoring all the chaos around them. Which is what makes them insane, because despite the horrific scenes around them, they simply act normal as if it's not going on.
My point is, look at Dora's life. Her parents are obscenely-rich European pot-smokers. Her brother is a womanizing pseudo-celebrity who writes Country music that he despises. One of her friends suffers from severe depression and what looks like post-traumatic stress disorder from a paternal suicide, another has severe OCD and is from space, and the world is populated by tiny, highly destructive robots that people choose to buy for some reason. She's had a string of potentially-abusive relationships with arseholes before hooking up with a guy who was in love with her friend who she not only employs but lives with.
In the midst of this, she has a healthy relationship and is a successful small business owner.
...exactly what part of this is boring?
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A nice, honest, real relationship in QC - who woulda thought!
At least Dora recognises she has issues and needs to sort them. I love the angle on this too.
Those pillows definitely look too small. More like cushions than pillows.
Aaaannnnnnd
Pintsize to bring it back to basics.
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aren't temper-pedic pillows that small though?
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So is Faye coming to work tomorrow or what?
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Raoullefere, you posted a theory in last week's thread that I really agreed with - namely, Dora is a master of the self-fulfilling prophesy. Relationship-wise, she sets herself up to fail, deals with a crappy relationship (while further lowering her self-esteem), and then watches as the relationship fails (presumably this involves being dumped by the guy). You pointed out that she started this relationship with Marten with the same idea in mind (because Marten was obviously attracted to Faye)...but then Marten was different. And now she doesn't know what to do, so she chooses to lash out in a preemptive "hurt them before they hurt me" fashion.
I really like that theory. I also think it really fits in neatly with what Sven told us about Dora's dating history. And if that ends up being right, that's why I'm bothered by her in today's comic.
[snip for brevity, not for lack of thoughtful reasoning]
I can see Marten thinking there's some resolution from this conversation, but I'm not convinced there is on Dora's side. Yet.
If I am right, (and Jeph only knows that) then it's going to be very difficult for Dora to 'catch' herself doing that. That's why I think she needs counseling, so an uninvolved party can help Dora learn to perceive clues in her thought process that indicate she's 'doing it again.' Your brain needs training to do what you want it to, just like a balky horse. You have to be able to know when he's going to cut to the right to leave the arena before he does it. Correct him enough, and, in theory, he stops doing that. (In practice, the sneaky bastard waits until you're not paying attention for a while, then does it again. And so does your brain. But I'm told eventually they give up.)
But, to me, Dora's at least trying to do that tonight. She's listening to herself and stopping when she catches herself in the discrepancy between what she says in panel 2 (justification) and panel 3 (accessing reality). That's a start, yes? But very few people, I suspect, can do this sort of thing on their own, or at least it will take much longer.
No, Dora's issue is not as serious as Faye's problem (no black outs or possible attempted suicides, for one thing), and then again, it's exactly the same, because both of them expect a bad part of their history to repeat itself in new ways, but with the same devastating effect on them. It's why each woman fears the possibility of repetition and how she reacts that differ. But both problems have at least one other thing in common: the absolute ability to make their possessors miserable beings who are well able to 'starve to death' in the 'land of milk and honey.' (Or Marten and Angus. Call them what you will :-D) The difference there is that while Faye's issues have kept her from eating at all, Dora's allows her a few nice meals before starving her again. Which is worse?
Oh, and points to Marten for more full disclosure. So long as he holds to that, he keeps the moral authority (or whatever you want to call it) to hold Dora to it, too (which she did). I guess that's some of the handling Carl-E's concerned about, but doesn't she need it at this point?
Edit: got to stop building walls. 'Pintsize Lol' would've covered it, I think.
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I don't know what is motivating the Dora hate, but I suspect that those who are dissapointed that Marten didn't dump her expect perfect relationships at all times, and if one partner fails the other, the only recourse is to DTMFA.
And yes, earlier in this arc, I did say that if Dora didn't see that she was wrong here, Marten should DTMFA, but I emphasized the if.
Now that Dora has shown remorse, and in the latest strip has begun to analyse her insecurity, Marten would be an absolute heel if he dumped her.
D'ingTMFA when you really care about someone is the relationship equivalent of declaring war: to be avoided at all costs, but sometimes there is no alternative. It shouldn't be the standard response anytime your SO fails to live up to a standard of some kind, especially if they are willing to try to alter their behaviour, as Dora is doing now.
And as much as I can't beleive I'm actually saying it, Pintsize is right, they do need to get to the make-up sex, if only to metabolize the angry hormones and replace them with the feel-good cocktail of brain chemicals that the beast with two backs is so good at producing.
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Weak. Way to be a total wuss, Marten.
Jeph threw away the perfect opportunity to break those two up -- something that's been overdue for years.
funny how two people can read the same comic, and one of them can come away with such a totally fucking ass-backwards interpretation.
A good relationship - the kind that involves two people telling each other "I love you", "I love you too" AND MEANING IT - does not spring fully formed out of some kind of faery-tale cereal box. They require hard work and commitment. They require one or both sides to be tolerant of the other's foibles.
Marten just spent several strips showing that he has an emotional core of tempered steel and the calm resolve to make his relationship work despite the rocky patches, and you think he's a wuss? Brother, you wouldn't recognise real strength if it fucked your eyeballs out with the UBMEOD. For him to dump her without an honest attempt at resolution would have been the most weaksauce, spineless, reprehensible thing he could have done.
The guy may be a physical wimp but heck, I aspire to have that kind of emotional fortitude. And if you think otherwise, then I suggest you resign yourself to never finding a lifelong partner.
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Just for context, I don't think the gravity of Dora's previous relationships should really be blown out of proportion. There's a difference between being treated poorly and being abused. IMHO, Dora falls clearly in the former category for two reasons. The first of those is Dora herself. Even when we see her irrational insecurity and jealousy outbursts, she stands up to Marten (albeit against fantastical perceived transgressions). She's a pretty assertive person on a regular basis. Not really abuse victim behavior or temperament. When Sven said "treated her like shit, cheated on her, the works," he said it as her older brother. There's some hyperbole there.
The second reason is her family. Sven was obviously familiar enough with her past paramours to form an opinion. When Dora introduced Marten to her parents, her mom mentioned something about how he was the first boyfriend Dora brought home that she found attractive. It stands to reason they met some of the others. Sven may have his own drama and her parents may be off in la la land half the time, but none of them are that disconnected. It seems unlikely they'd just stand aside and let her be abused time and time again.
These old boyfriends were probably just goth versions of pre-Faye Sven who viewed her as a notch in their bedposts rather than an actual partner. Sad, but not abuse.
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She's a pretty assertive person on a regular basis. Not really abuse victim behavior or temperament.
Ah, but every abuse victim is different and reacts differently. Dora might have developed a particularly strong, assertive tone as a useful defense mechanism, and could have been less assertive prior to being "hardened" by her experiences in these relationships.
The second reason is her family. Sven was obviously familiar enough with her past paramours to form an opinion. When Dora introduced Marten to her parents, her mom mentioned something about how he was the first boyfriend Dora brought home that she found attractive. It stands to reason they met some of the others. Sven may have his own drama and her parents may be off in la la land half the time, but none of them are that disconnected. It seems unlikely they'd just stand aside and let her be abused time and time again.
These old boyfriends were probably just goth versions of pre-Faye Sven who viewed her as a notch in their bedposts rather than an actual partner. Sad, but not abuse.
You can't really tell that someone's an abuser, though, by meeting them in a casual context. Lots of 'em are really good at hiding their abusive tendencies from the outside world - they might just come off as douchey, enough for Sven to notice, or they might come off as entirely charming and confident when in front of parents. Maybe Sven's better at recognising them than their parents, as well, because he's exhibited assholish behaviour before, or maybe he saw them in less formal contexts than "meet the parents" dinners, or maybe Dora came crying to him about them in rare moments of sibling solidarity, but rarely told her parents.
It's a leap to say her old boyfriends were abusive rather than just assholish, but it's not completely implausible, especially if you're talking verbal self-esteem-attacking abuse.
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So is Faye coming to work tomorrow or what?
This would actually be the perfect opportunity to write Faye out of the comic.
Faye says "Fuck you, Dora!" and gets another (better, real, as in not at a fucking coffee shop and actually working somewhere not-dead-end) job, or moves back to her home state and gets a better job, or whatever. Either way, she moves out of the apartment because fuck living in the same place with toxic people when you have your own issues. Don't even bother answering the question of where things go with Angus, because it is irrelevant until Faye completes her therapy and learns to genuinely love herself rather than only standing up for herself to spite people that make her angry.
Yes, Martin and Dora are toxic people. Pretty much everyone in QC is (which is where most of the humor comes in), though, so that really shouldn't surprise anyone.
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She's a pretty assertive person on a regular basis. Not really abuse victim behavior or temperament.
Ah, but every abuse victim is different and reacts differently. Dora might have developed a particularly strong, assertive tone as a useful defense mechanism, and could have been less assertive prior to being "hardened" by her experiences in these relationships.
The second reason is her family. Sven was obviously familiar enough with her past paramours to form an opinion. When Dora introduced Marten to her parents, her mom mentioned something about how he was the first boyfriend Dora brought home that she found attractive. It stands to reason they met some of the others. Sven may have his own drama and her parents may be off in la la land half the time, but none of them are that disconnected. It seems unlikely they'd just stand aside and let her be abused time and time again.
These old boyfriends were probably just goth versions of pre-Faye Sven who viewed her as a notch in their bedposts rather than an actual partner. Sad, but not abuse.
You can't really tell that someone's an abuser, though, by meeting them in a casual context. Lots of 'em are really good at hiding their abusive tendencies from the outside world - they might just come off as douchey, enough for Sven to notice, or they might come off as entirely charming and confident when in front of parents. Maybe Sven's better at recognising them than their parents, as well, because he's exhibited assholish behaviour before, or maybe he saw them in less formal contexts than "meet the parents" dinners, or maybe Dora came crying to him about them in rare moments of sibling solidarity, but rarely told her parents.
It's a leap to say her old boyfriends were abusive rather than just assholish, but it's not completely implausible, especially if you're talking verbal self-esteem-attacking abuse.
On the first point, the differences are really less than one might expect. Also, the "assertive tone as a defense mechanism" idea is kind of absurd; aggressive perhaps, but not to the abuser or perceived abuser (in this case Marten).
On the second point, fair enough that the abuser can hide it. I won't deny that this is often the case. But if this was a pattern that repeated itself as Sven said, Dora wouldn't be able to hide the effect on her from her parents, even if she never explicitly told them any details of those relationships.
Unless Dora's had some serious counseling (which she has seemed to indicate that she has not) I will say that I don't think it's plausible that these past boyfriends were really abusive.
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Oh for Christ's sake. Marten, of all the characters, a "toxic" person. Dora needing to be dumped by "wussy" Marten. What's next, calling Hanners a crybaby attention-getter who should toss out her pills and stop seeing a "head-shrinker?"
I suspect some of the people on this forum--not most, most of you folks are great--have never meaningfully interacted with other human beings in person, except when required to for work, school or family occasions. Have never had a real friendship or relationship--again, in person.
Because such people don't seem to have a rolling fucking doughnut of an idea as to what makes real human beings--not D&D characters or MMPORG "hordes" or superheroes or whatever--tick.
To them I say: turn off your PC, go outside and meet people. Take a class. Volunteer for a non-profit cause. Hang around bookstores or jazz cafes. Get to know human beings in all their wonderful, frustrating, colourful, exhilirating, exhausting diversity. And then see if you're so damn sure about who is or isn't "toxic" or "wussy" or whatever neat little boxes you so cavalierly put people in.
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Martin and Dora are toxic people
You could try spelling Marten's name right, for a start - though that wouldn't make your suggestions any more convincing.
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On the first point, the differences are really less than one might expect. Also, the "assertive tone as a defense mechanism" idea is kind of absurd; aggressive perhaps, but not to the abuser or perceived abuser (in this case Marten).
Granted, it's a rarer response, but I've internet-known a few people who've developed that defense post-abuse. I do agree with you that we don't have much reason to presume abuse over mere awfulness, though.
Not even going to acknowledge the ridiculousness of calling Marten toxic. Unless, Odin, you're suggesting that Faye's friends are "holding her back" by keeping her within the world of Coffee of Doom, and hence in a job that doesn't match her skills and talents. In which case, we've already seen Dora try to encourage Faye to explore the lucrative possibilities of her sculpture and design gifts, and Marten's a generally supportive and caring friend. If/when Faye's ready to move on to a different job, she can still retain the friendship of the whole group, and I'd bet they'd be happy for her. Being a comfortable social group which just happens to be populated by individuals with their own issues and not incredibly prestigious jobs does not a toxic environment make, I'm afraid.
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I honestly feel kind of sorry for some of the folks here who see this and say, "Gah! A negative response! And we saw a few others before this! Clearly they should break up now because they are all horrible bastards!"
I'm assuming - maybe foolishly - that they're serious and not just trolling. In which case they honestly believe that if you love someone, you never ever ever fight. And if you do fight, then it's not worth carrying on a relationship. Maybe it's a learned response, from an ex-boyfriend or -girlfriend? Or they learned it from their own parents who split up over a couple of trivial arguments? If so, I really do feel sorry for them, because they are never going to have a healthy relationship.
People, good kind loving people who care about each other, fight. They do it all the time, for the stupidest reasons. And these are two fictional characters who are also fighting, and the reason they are doing it is NOT stupid.
I have no idea who first said that the hardest thing in the world is loving someone. Christ knows it's been said by a thousand people since then. But it is very true. If you love someone you love them even when they piss you off, and then when you make up, you love them more. That's how relationships that matter really work. And if you give the slightest shit about the person you're with, if you love them, then you fucking well try to make it work by loving them even when you fight. What you don't do, not ever, is cut and run at the first sign of a fight.
Maybe the people who think that a breakup in QC is the right choice are just trolling and they don't believe it. I hope so, for their sakes. Because if not... that's just truly sad.
EDIT:
Also, reading that a few people have latched onto the "abusive" aspect of Dora's past relationships... I don't know if you're taking that from what I said above (probably not and I'm just self-obsessed, but anyway), but I don't think abusive has to mean that Dora's ex-boyfriends beat her or called her names or verbally roasted her every chance they got. In extreme forms, for damn sure that's what it means. But if someone throws their heart at you and you just ignore it by cheating on them, treating them like shit and otherwise not deserving the love they give you, and if that experience damages them later in life, then I'd call that abusive.
Maybe it's too strong a word, but in that case I'd call it inaccurate, not wrong. Abuse is abuse, no matter what flavour.
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Oh for Christ's sake. Marten, of all the characters, a "toxic" person. Dora needing to be dumped by "wussy" Marten. What's next, calling Hanners a crybaby attention-getter who should toss out her pills and stop seeing a "head-shrinker?"
If someone behaved in the real world the way Marten has behaved through the entirety of his arc in the QC comic, yes, he'd be a toxic person to be in a relationship with (because he is incapable of adult behavior, as he has repeatedly shown everyone reading the comic for pretty much ever). He is the quintessential "clingy boyfriend/doormat" and the only thing that has kept him from being shown as the abusive boyfriend type Dora has apparently dated until now is that he hasn't had the opportunity (because he's been white-knighting Faye for so many years before hooking up with Dora).
To them I say: turn off your PC, go outside and meet people. Take a class. Volunteer for a non-profit cause. Hang around bookstores or jazz cafes. Get to know human beings in all their wonderful, frustrating, colourful, exhilirating, exhausting diversity. And then see if you're so damn sure about who is or isn't "toxic" or "wussy" or whatever neat little boxes you so cavalierly put people in.
Take your own advice, you sure are getting wound up about someone criticizing the personalities of characters you've become way too attached to for someone that suggests other people do those things.
Martin and Dora are toxic people
You could try spelling Marten's name right, for a start - though that wouldn't make your suggestions any more convincing.
Blow me, I mentally spell the name correctly in spite of Jeph naming the character after a relative of the weasel. Actually, thanks for that, I doubt Jeph choosing that spelling of the name is a coincidence.
Not even going to acknowledge the ridiculousness of calling Marten toxic. Unless, Odin, you're suggesting that Faye's friends are "holding her back" by keeping her within the world of Coffee of Doom, and hence in a job that doesn't match her skills and talents. In which case, we've already seen Dora try to encourage Faye to explore the lucrative possibilities of her sculpture and design gifts, and Marten's a generally supportive and caring friend. If/when Faye's ready to move on to a different job, she can still retain the friendship of the whole group, and I'd bet they'd be happy for her. Being a comfortable social group which just happens to be populated by individuals with their own issues and not incredibly prestigious jobs does not a toxic environment make, I'm afraid.
Omitting Faye from my earlier listing of characters that I think are toxic people doesn't mean I think she isn't also a toxic person.
Hell, if I were to go through and list the shit going on with the characters in the QC-verse, I might as well truncate it to: They all need serious therapy.
"Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post." Edit:
I honestly feel kind of sorry for some of the folks here who see this and say, "Gah! A negative response! And we saw a few others before this! Clearly they should break up now because they are all horrible bastards!"
It actually has more to do with them having a history of negativity pretty much throughout the history of this comic, from the very beginning. Mentally healthy adults do not take pleasure in abusing their friends like the cast of QC does on a regular basis (with very few interludes of rationality and apologizing later when even by QC standards someone crosses the line).
I'm assuming - maybe foolishly - that they're serious and not just trolling. In which case they honestly believe that if you love someone, you never ever ever fight. And if you do fight, then it's not worth carrying on a relationship. Maybe it's a learned response, from an ex-boyfriend or -girlfriend? Or they learned it from their own parents who split up over a couple of trivial arguments? If so, I really do feel sorry for them, because they are never going to have a healthy relationship.
Life is too short to spend the majority of it fighting to save a failing relationship given the absolute truth that the person you are with is not a unique snowflake and you can always find someone better (if you yourself are worth better).
People, good kind loving people who care about each other, fight. They do it all the time, for the stupidest reasons. And these are two fictional characters who are also fighting, and the reason they are doing it is NOT stupid.
The reasoning isn't stupid, but the method of expression damn sure is.
I have no idea who first said that the hardest thing in the world is loving someone. Christ knows it's been said by a thousand people since then. But it is very true. If you love someone you love them even when they piss you off, and then when you make up, you love them more. That's how relationships that matter really work. And if you give the slightest shit about the person you're with, if you love them, then you fucking well try to make it work by loving them even when you fight. What you don't do, not ever, is cut and run at the first sign of a fight.
Meanwhile, if you're inclination is to leave the relationship, that should be a pretty good indication that you don't love them, right? Why stay with someone you don't love?
If you have to convince yourself that you love someone, you don't love them, you should break up and move on.
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She's a pretty assertive person on a regular basis. Not really abuse victim behavior or temperament.
These old boyfriends were probably just goth versions of pre-Faye Sven who viewed her as a notch in their bedposts rather than an actual partner. Sad, but not abuse.
Unless Dora's had some serious counseling (which she has seemed to indicate that she has not) I will say that I don't think it's plausible that these past boyfriends were really abusive.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say you don't understand that there are types of abuse that doesn't involve physically hitting a person.
It actually scares me a little, cause that's sorta the way that abusers talk "Oh, it's not abuse, because I didn't hit her, I just call her a stupid bitch because she is one." "Oh it isn't abuse because I didn't hit her hard enough for her to get a bruise" "Oh it isn't abuse because she stays with me and if I was abusing her she'd leave" or whatever other excuse people come up with as to why their particular brand of abuse isn't actually abuse. Hell, if you watch TV and the News enough, you'll see men who beat a woman TO DEATH, and they are going to jail for the rest of their lives, and they still insist that their beating their wife to death wasn't "really abuse, because..."
Now I'm not saying necessarily that Dora's ex-boyfriends beat her, or verbally abused her. But treating someone as a vagina with a body attached to it is still abuse. You're devaluing them as a person as much as the standard abuser who calls someone a "worthless cunt" all the time.
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So how do you solve a problem like Dora?
Call Dora's League of Evil Ex-Boyfriends and challenge them to individual combat, of course.
And hot make-up sexxors.
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Dora's League of Evil Ex-Boyfriends
Pssht - League of Evil Exes, the more so considering Dora's occasional bi tendencies.
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You know, sometimes I really wish this forum had a "Hide User" function.
God knows I'd be using it in the last few days.
*assumes en guarde position clutching UBMEOD*
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...okay, I definitely don't want this to turn into a flamewar, so I'll just bite back the comments that are on the tip of my tongue about the difference between intelligent responses and "Fuck you I'm right".
Instead I'll just say that we're all entitled to our opinions, regardless of how many folks agree with us. I'm not going to repeat myself other than to emphasise my main point - if you love someone you have to try. And if your instant response to relationship stress is to claim that life's too short and who gives a shit, then I'm genuinely sorry for you. That's damaged. And I doubt someone with that outlook on life is going to find happiness any time soon.
But, hey, it's the internet. People can express themselves and damned if I'm going to start Internet Drama over a difference of opinion regarding the relationship between two fictional people.
*collects his UBMEOD and stands beside akronnick, facing the ocean*
We stand as one!
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I will say that while the previous comic had me a bit meh, I rather like this one. Todays is very nice both in terms of communication between chars and emoting. As for what had me meh on yesterdays...I will avoid pouring gasoline on the embers.
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At some point, I'm going to have to do a TL;DR on this thread, but until then, Odin needs to hear a few things...
OK, maybe it's me who needs to say a few things.
...Mentally healthy adults do not take pleasure in abusing their friends like the cast of QC does on a regular basis (with very few interludes of rationality and apologizing later when even by QC standards someone crosses the line).
My wife of mumble mumble years and I regularly verbally snark at each other. It's a challenge of wits, it's fun, and we don't go for the jugular (a la Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolfe). To the outside world, it seems a little bizarre, but I'm pretty sure we're mentally healthy. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's helped us stay that way.
Well, stable, at least.
We play scrabble, too, but I think that's more abusive...
Life is too short to spend the majority of it fighting to save a failing relationship given the absolute truth that the person you are with is not a unique snowflake and you can always find someone better (if you yourself are worth better).
Wow. just... wow. You can always find someone better? You've just written yourself into a long trail of failed relationships, right there. Right up until you find someone who you feel you're not worthy of. But with an ego that large, it may never happen.
Try finding someone you love for who they are, not for what they're worth to you. Then hope they love you for who you are. If they don't, then maybe it's not worth it.
Meanwhile, if you're inclination is to leave the relationship, that should be a pretty good indication that you don't love them, right? Why stay with someone you don't love?
If you have to convince yourself that you love someone, you don't love them, you should break up and move on.
So far, that's the most reasonable thing you've said. Bear in mind, though, that you can believe a lot of false things, and may need to be convinced of the truth!
Here I stand, broom in hand, against the rushing tide...
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I may have expressed some dislike for how this situation is being handled. But, then I got to panel 5 (the I love you panel) and all dislike went out the door. It's well drawn and adorable and I want a big, giant copy of it.
Seconded. That panel was TEH cute. (And I did that intentionally!)
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blah
trolls gonna troll
release the dickbrooms
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aren't temper-pedic pillows that small though?
Some of them do appear to be that small, but really - those look like they're about 15" x 20". Standard pillows are about 20" x 30".
So is Faye coming to work tomorrow or what?
Uh... I really hope that's what tomorrow's comic is all about.
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Since it's already been said, and a lot more eloquently than I can manage, I'm going to get ready to lock shields and draw my broom.
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80% of this thread = TL; DR.
Oh, and the "get away from the computer" commenter? :P
(Gets up, adjusts his wedding ring, goes into other room, smiles at photos of his lovely wife, then crawls into bed for the day - ON NORMAL SIZED PILLOWS, JEPH! :roll: )
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All of you guys manipulating your UBMEOD: Are you sure you all want to keep ...ah, stimulating them like that?
You might end up needing the UMMEOV....
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...okay, I definitely don't want this to turn into a flamewar, so I'll just bite back the comments that are on the tip of my tongue about the difference between intelligent responses and "Fuck you I'm right".
Instead I'll just say that we're all entitled to our opinions, regardless of how many folks agree with us. I'm not going to repeat myself other than to emphasise my main point - if you love someone you have to try. And if your instant response to relationship stress is to claim that life's too short and who gives a shit, then I'm genuinely sorry for you. That's damaged. And I doubt someone with that outlook on life is going to find happiness any time soon.
But, hey, it's the internet. People can express themselves and damned if I'm going to start Internet Drama over a difference of opinion regarding the relationship between two fictional people.
*collects his UBMEOD and stands beside akronnick, facing the ocean*
We stand as one!
If you didn't catch that I was talking about people spending their entire married life fighting to "make a relationship work" (as in, multiple decades "for the children" and making themselves and the kids miserable), you are beyond stupid. The rest falls into place in that context and you need to actually read what I post.
At some point, I'm going to have to do a TL;DR on this thread, but until then, Odin needs to hear a few things...
OK, maybe it's me who needs to say a few things.
...Mentally healthy adults do not take pleasure in abusing their friends like the cast of QC does on a regular basis (with very few interludes of rationality and apologizing later when even by QC standards someone crosses the line).
My wife of mumble mumble years and I regularly verbally snark at each other. It's a challenge of wits, it's fun, and we don't go for the jugular (a la Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolfe). To the outside world, it seems a little bizarre, but I'm pretty sure we're mentally healthy. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's helped us stay that way.
Meanwhile, QC characters regularly go for the jugular. Jeph has characters like Faye act like they play off father suicide jokes so far, but I'd wager if he's going to handle it even remotely realistically Faye talks about that shit with her therapist at some point.
Well, stable, at least.
We play scrabble, too, but I think that's more abusive...
Why? Because you lose?
Life is too short to spend the majority of it fighting to save a failing relationship given the absolute truth that the person you are with is not a unique snowflake and you can always find someone better (if you yourself are worth better).
Wow. just... wow. You can always find someone better? You've just written yourself into a long trail of failed relationships, right there. Right up until you find someone who you feel you're not worthy of. But with an ego that large, it may never happen.
Try finding someone you love for who they are, not for what they're worth to you. Then hope they love you for who you are. If they don't, then maybe it's not worth it.
There is a difference between "a long trail of failed relationships" and "thinking it is absolutely retarded for Marten to settle for a long term relationship with the very first woman that actually wants to have sex with him". We're discussing a derail over my saying how hilariously unrealistic (how toxic they'd be if they were real) the characters are compared to you and others thinking they are perfectly realistic, remember?
What you said only really applies if the dating pool around me is full of abysmally clingy, neurotic people (thankfully, it isn't). Where do you live, rural Alabama or something?
Meanwhile, if you're inclination is to leave the relationship, that should be a pretty good indication that you don't love them, right? Why stay with someone you don't love?
If you have to convince yourself that you love someone, you don't love them, you should break up and move on.
So far, that's the most reasonable thing you've said. Bear in mind, though, that you can believe a lot of false things, and may need to be convinced of the truth!
Here I stand, broom in hand, against the rushing tide...
And it makes sense if you read it in the correct context of what I actually wrote instead of fucking up in your reading comprehension like everyone disagreeing with me so far.
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If you didn't catch that I was talking about people spending their entire married life fighting to "make a relationship work" (as in, multiple decades "for the children" and making themselves and the kids miserable), you are beyond stupid. The rest falls into place in that context and you need to actually read what I post.
Apparantly, no one caught that point. Maybe because it wasn't articulated. You really should read what you post also. The context may have been clear to you when you wrote it, but obviously not when a lot of people read it. You need to say what you mean!
Well, stable, at least.
We play scrabble, too, but I think that's more abusive...
Why? Because you lose?
No, because we spend he whole time trying to beat each other ... XD
And it makes sense if you read it in the correct context of what I actually wrote instead of fucking up in your reading comprehension like everyone disagreeing with me so far.
Again, we all read what you wrote. See my first point, and if you want to be heard, try backing up your statements before pontificating. (wait, is that a contradiction?)
Oh, and try some polite discourse. It tastes better.
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Ah, today's comic is better! Much more what I was hoping for - some actual thought/conversation about Dora's actions. Maybe a tiny bit will stick this time, and Dora can start on the path of getting better!
Although, really Dora, don't encourage Pintsize.
If I am right, (and Jeph only knows that) then it's going to be very difficult for Dora to 'catch' herself doing that. That's why I think she needs counseling, so an uninvolved party can help Dora learn to perceive clues in her thought process that indicate she's 'doing it again.' Your brain needs training to do what you want it to, just like a balky horse. You have to be able to know when he's going to cut to the right to leave the arena before he does it. Correct him enough, and, in theory, he stops doing that. (In practice, the sneaky bastard waits until you're not paying attention for a while, then does it again. And so does your brain. But I'm told eventually they give up.)
Definitely with you on this one! But I think you're right - there is a bit of a start tonight. Like I said: hopefully that will stick!
Oh, and points to Marten for more full disclosure. So long as he holds to that, he keeps the moral authority (or whatever you want to call it) to hold Dora to it, too (which she did). I guess that's some of the handling Carl-E's concerned about, but doesn't she need it at this point?
Funny, I didn't have an issue with the word "handling", as I agree that Dora does need it. What I didn't like today was Marten's line of "You're not a mess" (because she is, albeit not as much of one as some others), and his line "We can fix this". I'm trying to decide what it is about that particular line that I don't like. I think it's partly the "we", because while Marten can help, I do think Dora needs outside help more...Marten's done all he can I believe.
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Now I'm wondering what Dora's evil exes would look like.
The Yoga Instructor (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=372)!
David Bowie!
The Urolagniac (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=603)!
The Diva's DJ (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=404)!
The Bad Threeway (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=600)!
And finally... Raven!
...I'm going to assume the "crazy racist" was just preemptive. Or possibly David Bowie.
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Odin, you might try actually explaining things that you're saying some time. Like Carl-E pointed out, yeah, you might have known what you wanted to say but... you didn't actually say it at any point. Makes it a wee bit hard on the rest of us.
Anyway. Now, rest assured, we're all very impressed with how clever you are - we all love forceful, agressive people here, God knows - and we're quite sure that you could probably beat us up in fights in real life in between you totally making out with, like, twelve hot chicks at once. But if you're quite done being the Internet Tough Guy, you might want to wind down the insults just slightly because the adults are talking here, sweetie. Staggering though it may be for you to understand, sometimes when people disagree with you it's not because they fail reading comprehension. It's because they actually thought about what you said and didn't agree.
Also, what's the bet you take something from that out of context and declare me to be a supreme arsehole, because we've never seen a troll use that lame self-defence tactic before...
The thing that I'm not getting about your hate on the Marten / Dora relationship is that you seem to think they're at each other's throats all the time. From all signs they're considered pretty much a nauseatingly cute couple by all of their friends. They get along, they have similar tastes (aside from Toto), and obviously they're physically compatible. Yes, they fight sometimes, but it was outright said only a few comics ago that the only thing they've had big fights about were Dora's trust issues. Basically they get along wonderfully and all their friends acknowledge this - Steve even describes them once as a "Perfect Couple" - aside from a single recurring issue. This issue has just now been revealed to have a perfectly understandable reason for existing, and Marten and Dora are being up-front about the fact that they plan to resolve the issue.
That's... just not what I'd call break-up material.
Obviously you shouldn't have a relationship with someone you can't stop fighting with. That's such a blindingly apparent fact that I think that's why none of us realised that's what you were getting at - it didn't need saying, because we all agree with it. It's like observing that standing in a fire is a bad idea because of all the heat. And yes, obviously, if you don't get along with the person you're dating, breaking up with them is what you should do. It's what any sane, rational person would do.
What everyone else in the conversation before you arrived was talking about, and what QC is currently working on, is a relationship in which you get along fine 99% of the time but occasionally fight. Otherwise known as a normal relationship. Which is hard, and it's why you have to try to make it work. Because it's actually worth it instead of being a coward and backing out rather than take a chance.
In short, I agree with one point you've made, despite thinking that it didn't really need to be made because it's both incredibly obvious and not really relevant to what we were talking about.
As to how everyone else is apparently wrong, I might cheerfully point out that if every single person who talks to you thinks you're wrong, maybe it's just barely possible that theyr'e not all idiots and you need to consider what exactly you're saying.
And as to the pointless, random insults: Fuck you and have a nice day.
*hefts the Useless Broom Made Entirely Out Of Dicks above his head*
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"thinking it is absolutely retarded for Marten to settle for a long term relationship with the very first woman that actually wants to have sex with him".
The mighty wielders of the UBMEOD have already vocalised my thoughts better than I could, but I'd also like to point out that this is not Marten's first relationship - he has had girlfriends before. So he's not really leaping at the first person who wanted to be with him.
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If you didn't catch that I was talking about people spending their entire married life fighting to "make a relationship work" (as in, multiple decades "for the children" and making themselves and the kids miserable), you are beyond stupid. The rest falls into place in that context and you need to actually read what I post.
Apparantly, no one caught that point. Maybe because it wasn't articulated. You really should read what you post also. The context may have been clear to you when you wrote it, but obviously not when a lot of people read it. You need to say what you mean!
Sorry, I figured since people were referencing divorce rates that we were on the same page.
Well, stable, at least.
We play scrabble, too, but I think that's more abusive...
Why? Because you lose?
No, because we spend he whole time trying to beat each other ... XD
That was terrible.
And it makes sense if you read it in the correct context of what I actually wrote instead of fucking up in your reading comprehension like everyone disagreeing with me so far.
Again, we all read what you wrote. See my first point, and if you want to be heard, try backing up your statements before pontificating. (wait, is that a contradiction?)
Oh, and try some polite discourse. It tastes better.
90% of my other internet posting is on the SomethingAwful forums, so the crossover of abrasiveness isn't intentional, it's just the general tone I'm used to having to constantly take with people.
Odin, you might try actually explaining things that you're saying some time. Like Carl-E pointed out, yeah, you might have known what you wanted to say but... you didn't actually say it at any point. Makes it a wee bit hard on the rest of us.
I addressed this above.
Anyway. Now, rest assured, we're all very impressed with how clever you are - we all love forceful, agressive people here, God knows - and we're quite sure that you could probably beat us up in fights in real life in between you totally making out with, like, twelve hot chicks at once. But if you're quite done being the Internet Tough Guy, you might want to wind down the insults just slightly because the adults are talking here, sweetie. Staggering though it may be for you to understand, sometimes when people disagree with you it's not because they fail reading comprehension. It's because they actually thought about what you said and didn't agree.
Also, what's the bet you take something from that out of context and declare me to be a supreme arsehole, because we've never seen a troll use that lame self-defence tactic before...
Actually, most of the time when people disagree with me it's because they don't bother to take the time to understand my point before arguing against it (because they don't like "rude" language on the internet and apparently can't parse intelligent discourse if it isn't couched in flowery Shakespearan poetry). Also: because they're morons.
The thing that I'm not getting about your hate on the Marten / Dora relationship is that you seem to think they're at each other's throats all the time. From all signs they're considered pretty much a nauseatingly cute couple by all of their friends. They get along, they have similar tastes (aside from Toto), and obviously they're physically compatible. Yes, they fight sometimes, but it was outright said only a few comics ago that the only thing they've had big fights about were Dora's trust issues. Basically they get along wonderfully and all their friends acknowledge this - Steve even describes them once as a "Perfect Couple" - aside from a single recurring issue. This issue has just now been revealed to have a perfectly understandable reason for existing, and Marten and Dora are being up-front about the fact that they plan to resolve the issue.
That's... just not what I'd call break-up material.
All of their friends are pretty fucked up in their own right. Wasn't Steve the one that was all "OMG BITCH YOU FLIRTED WITH SOMEONE ELSE, ARE YOU CHEATING ON ME?!"?
Hardly a group to use as a point of reference for whether or not a couple is "perfect", though I can see how you'd think that if your entire point hinges on relativism compared to every other relationship Jeph has had in the comic so far.
Obviously you shouldn't have a relationship with someone you can't stop fighting with. That's such a blindingly apparent fact that I think that's why none of us realised that's what you were getting at - it didn't need saying, because we all agree with it. It's like observing that standing in a fire is a bad idea because of all the heat. And yes, obviously, if you don't get along with the person you're dating, breaking up with them is what you should do. It's what any sane, rational person would do.
What everyone else in the conversation before you arrived was talking about, and what QC is currently working on, is a relationship in which you get along fine 99% of the time but occasionally fight. Otherwise known as a normal relationship. Which is hard, and it's why you have to try to make it work. Because it's actually worth it instead of being a coward and backing out rather than take a chance.
In short, I agree with one point you've made, despite thinking that it didn't really need to be made because it's both incredibly obvious and not really relevant to what we were talking about.
As to how everyone else is apparently wrong, I might cheerfully point out that if every single person who talks to you thinks you're wrong, maybe it's just barely possible that theyr'e not all idiots and you need to consider what exactly you're saying.
And as to the pointless, random insults: Fuck you and have a nice day.
*hefts the Useless Broom Made Entirely Out Of Dicks above his head*
Wouldn't you have to pull that out of your mouth first?
"thinking it is absolutely retarded for Marten to settle for a long term relationship with the very first woman that actually wants to have sex with him".
The mighty wielders of the UBMEOD have already vocalised my thoughts better than I could, but I'd also like to point out that this is not Marten's first relationship - he has had girlfriends before. So he's not really leaping at the first person who wanted to be with him.
Marten claims he had girlfriends before, there is no actual proof of this (and given how he pined over Faye forever, I find it easier to believe he actually was the stereotypical "Nice Guy" and just now--as in, the most recent comic--starting to finally grow up).
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Based on the above - "Gentlemen, Ladies - there would appear to be a troll in Asgard at present."
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We play scrabble, too, but I think that's more abusive...
Why? Because you lose?
No, because we spend he whole time trying to beat each other ... XD
That was terrible.
I thought the pun was above average.
I can never figure out of I'm trying to win or trying to lose when I'm playing Scrabble.
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Pintsize is the new yelling bird?
I would expect a line from the bird.
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Marten claims he had girlfriends before, there is no actual proof of this
Do you simply not believe him? After the arc in which his previous girlfriend came into Coffee of Doom?
If you allow that much rewriting of the strip, why should you, for instance, believe Faye's story about her dad?
Pintsize is the new yelling bird?
If you followed his Twitter, you'd know...
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Odin, I think you may need a useless dickbroom of your own, as you are never going to convince the majority of this board that you are correct.
I really liked today's comic. The art was excellent, and I think Jeph is going about this story telling business all right.
Looking forward to the next storyline. What is this UTTERLY RIDICULOUS idea you have, Jeph? Does it involve a bunch of random strangers throwing brooms made entirely out of dicks at each other?
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Marten claims he had girlfriends before, there is no actual proof of this
Do you simply not believe him? After the arc in which his previous girlfriend came into Coffee of Doom?
When did that happen?
If you allow that much rewriting of the strip, why should you, for instance, believe Faye's story about her dad?
I prefer the McNinja variations on that whole thing, myself (for (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=670) reference (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=939)).
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Marten claims he had girlfriends before, there is no actual proof of this
Do you simply not believe him? After the arc in which his previous girlfriend came into Coffee of Doom?
If you allow that much rewriting of the strip, why should you, for instance, believe Faye's story about her dad?
That's Jeph's big finally. Everyone lied about everything. Faye's really heiress to a wealthy and kindly millionaire, but didn't want her friends to judge. Hanners is really the head of a mob syndicate and is playing crazy so she can plead insanity if she ever gets caught. Pint size is really a small child in a cheap plastic costume. Marten doesn't believe that a single peace of the worthwhile music has been released since Steven Still's 1970 solo album.
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Marten's ex comes in here (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=252); then he tells the story over a number of strips following, until Faye throws a jug of milk over her.
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Marten's ex comes in here (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=252); then he tells the story over a number of strips following, until Faye throws a jug of milk over her.
Ah, I didn't start reading until the mid-500s.
You may want to read that story again, Marten is definitely glossing over some assholish behavior himself by refusing to take a hint when his ex had broken up with him (but didn't have the spine to flat out tell him to move back to California at the time).
Actually, that whole arc demonstrates my point. Mentally healthy people don't assault complete strangers on the say-so of one of their friends.
Take a look at #257, where Marten starts talking about the hints he was getting and Faye's horrifically insane over-reaction in #257 or so.
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I'm going to go out on a limb and say you don't understand that there are types of abuse that doesn't involve physically hitting a person.
It actually scares me a little, cause that's sorta the way that abusers talk "Oh, it's not abuse, because I didn't hit her, I just call her a stupid bitch because she is one." "Oh it isn't abuse because I didn't hit her hard enough for her to get a bruise" "Oh it isn't abuse because she stays with me and if I was abusing her she'd leave" or whatever other excuse people come up with as to why their particular brand of abuse isn't actually abuse. Hell, if you watch TV and the News enough, you'll see men who beat a woman TO DEATH, and they are going to jail for the rest of their lives, and they still insist that their beating their wife to death wasn't "really abuse, because..."
Now I'm not saying necessarily that Dora's ex-boyfriends beat her, or verbally abused her. But treating someone as a vagina with a body attached to it is still abuse. You're devaluing them as a person as much as the standard abuser who calls someone a "worthless cunt" all the time.
It is good that you acknowledge you're going out on a limb, because you are wrong. The most I'm willing to personally divulge is that I've worked with abused (both physically and emotionally) women and children in the past and still volunteer when I have time. I fully concede that emotional abuse can be just as damaging as physical abuse. No argument there. But given my experience, I get annoyed when people throw that word around so loosely.
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Marten has had at least one girlfriend before, but that was some pretty damn "Nice Guy" behavior with Faye in the first 500 strips. I'm going to have to agree that he's made some personal growth in that regard since Dora.
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He mentions "three or four before..." in 1031 (http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=1031). Also that four girls dumped him in high school (1066 (http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=1066)).
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1066.
Psychological abuse is real. I knew someone who would propose something reasonable and ask in a worried tone "Are you all right with that?", trying to get the other party to think they were being a prima donna. He'd flatly assert counterfactual things, like the character in the Dilbert about how the craziest people define reality. The entire executive team working for him wound up in counseling before they sued him. Treating Dora "like shit" could very plausibly have involved mindfucking her.
Odin: if you're trying to prove that Faye is toxic, why not cite strip 69, where she assaults a generous friend for no reason at all? She isn't doing that any more. I'd argue that the worst thing the characters are doing to each other on a regular basis is enabling each other's underachievement, and even there we can see a prominent exception in Dora's repeated prods to Faye to pursue art or some other alternative to a dead-end retail job.
Look at it this way: what character is worse off for having fallen in with the QC crowd? If they were toxic, they'd be damaging everyone around them.
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Arguably, Tai is. After all, if Marten and his horny girlfriend hadn't been hanging around, she could have got that 30% raise.... :P
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So how do you solve a problem like Dora?
Call Dr. Corrine. - 12 (28.6%)
Call Hannelore. - 1 (2.4%)
Call Tai. - 5 (11.9%)
Call Jimbo. - 1 (2.4%)
Call the Ghostbusters. - 4 (9.5%)
Pancakes. Or Waffles. - 2 (4.8%)
Asps. - 5 (11.9%)
UBMEOD to the head. - 12 (28.6%)
Total Voters: 42
What saddens me is that no one got the reference in the title. :(
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Sorry, I figured since people were referencing divorce rates that we were on the same page.
Wait, wasn't that the "Dump her ass" thread?
Where's I leave my map?
We play scrabble, too, but I think that's more abusive...
Why? Because you lose?
No, because we spend he whole time trying to beat each other ... XD
That was terrible.
Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week. Be sure to tip your servers, or they'll make you sweep up! And you realy don't want to use their broom...
90% of my other internet posting is on the SomethingAwful forums, so the crossover of abrasiveness isn't intentional, it's just the general tone I'm used to having to constantly take with people.
Oh good lord, he's blaming his behaviour on his upbringing...
And oddly enough, it explains so much!
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Of course, there's no way of knowing (currently) that Marten isn't lying about his past girlfriends, but considering his personality and the specificity of his claims, I sincerely doubt it.
90% of my other internet posting is on the SomethingAwful forums, so the crossover of abrasiveness isn't intentional, it's just the general tone I'm used to having to constantly take with people.
Talk about being around toxic people...
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Faye moves to Minneapolis…
Who can scare the world just with her sneer?
Who can take a nothing day, and suddenly make it all filled with fear?
Well it's you girl, and you should know it
With each little shake of your fist, girl, you show it
Snark is all around, because you make it
Piling on abuse, and we just take it
You're gonna make life living hell
With every latte that you sell
Dedala-dundun<Close-up of Faye winding up for a punch> POW!
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8MWdNG3wsw&feature=related for those who don't get this)
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Wow. That was genuinely creative, raoullefere.
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Faye moves to Minneapolis…
Who can scare the world just with her sneer?
Who can take a nothing day, and suddenly make it all filled with fear?
Well it's you girl, and you should know it
With each little shake of your fist, girl, you show it
Snark is all around, because you make it
Piling on abuse, and we just take it
You're gonna make life living hell
With every latte that you sell
Dedala-dundun<Close-up of Faye winding up for a punch> POW!
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8MWdNG3wsw&feature=related for those who don't get this)
Well done sir, well done. *slow clap*
I like that Marten and Dora talked it out a bit more. They have further to go, but it's a start. I tihnk I'm ready to see what the morning brings for the QC folks, unless there's more harvesting to be done on the Angst Solstice.
As to the trolls (yes, plural), I will continue to Mab them.
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Although, really Dora, don't encourage Pintsize.
Pintsize does not need any encouragement. He's planning on recording the hot make-up sex and post it to the internet. :laugh:
I just wanted to add that I enjoyed today's comic.
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I don't think it's fair to call someone a troll just because they are expressing their opinions in such a way that most people here are not familiar with. I actually agreed with what most of Odin had to say... while he may be abrasive at times, it doesn't mean he's trying to troll...
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Faye moves to Minneapolis…
Who can scare the world just with her sneer?
Who can take a nothing day, and suddenly make it all filled with fear?
Well it's you girl, and you should know it
With each little shake of your fist, girl, you show it
Snark is all around, because you make it
Piling on abuse, and we just take it
You're gonna make life living hell
With every latte that you sell
Dedala-dundun<Close-up of Faye winding up for a punch> POW!
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8MWdNG3wsw&feature=related for those who don't get this)
Thank you, you've made my day with that. :D
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Psychological abuse is real. I knew someone who would propose something reasonable and ask in a worried tone "Are you all right with that?", trying to get the other party to think they were being a prima donna.
This is abuse?
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Rather than do a quotestorm, I'll keep it simple...
The problem I have in buying that the cast of QC are "toxic" is that in order to prove it, there's three or four examples being bandied about. That would be okay... except that there are more than 1700 comics to choose from. And yes, while each character has one or two examples in which they're an arsehole, I could just as easily claim every single other comic as an example of them not being one. At most, they're being inconsistent, which Jeph has been saying all along is the case. He's taken fairly realistic characters, dumped them in a ridiculously improbable universe of space travel and tiny robots, and then - this is the really, really important bit - stirred in a healthy dose of comic relief.
This could be a comic about people who are so perfect they could be nominated for Sainthood, who come from nuclear families, who have suffered no stress worse than a sore finger. Except... that would be boring. The point of QC is the wacky shenanigans that ensue as a direct result of the characters interacting. And if they were all straight-laced vanilla folk who'd never dealt with stress before, their interactions wouldn't be interesting, let alone funny.
At the very most I could accept that the cast of QC are a group of damaged characters who came together and formed friendships. Even that, I feel, is seriously pushing the bounds of realism about as badly as if I explained Lord Of The Rings as "The story of a group of friends trying to return unwanted jewelery to its place of origin." The characters of QC are much more than that - they're entertaining because they're funny, quirky, and yes, have issues to deal with. Just like regular people. Maybe QC's issues tend more to the dramatic, but it's a story. They're allowed to. And I mostly think it's handled well.
And given all that... well, what are we saying? Because these people have issues, they're not allowed to fall in love? Not allowed to have a relationship? They're somehow damaging to folks around them? I just can't see it.
As for whether Odin's a troll... well, sir, you arrived being rude as hell, and I responded about the same back. I am sorry about that. It was late, I wass tired, yadda yadda yadda. Either way, it may be that in other lands on these here Internets, you have to be abrasive to get the point across, but folks here tend to be smart and enjoy a good debate. Which is why your point tends to carry better if you talk across to people rather than down. I have no trouble with your viewpoint, even if I don't see it myself - but I love a good debate. Just as long as you keep the insults and holier-than-thou clamped down a bit, you may yet convince us all you're human. :P
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Psychological abuse is real. I knew someone who would propose something reasonable and ask in a worried tone "Are you all right with that?", trying to get the other party to think they were being a prima donna.
This is abuse?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
A roundabout way of hurting someone, but effective if your goal is to break them down and convince them they have gone crazy and need you to survive.
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Well, stable, at least.
We play scrabble, too, but I think that's more abusive...
Why? Because you lose?
No, because we spend he whole time trying to beat each other ... XD
That was terrible.
It beat the hell out of your cheap shot at his Scrabble skills, of all things.
*hefts the Useless Broom Made Entirely Out Of Dicks above his head*
Wouldn't you have to pull that out of your mouth first?
Yeah, you definitely seem like a guy who knows a lot about "intelligent discourse".
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To summarize:
A toxic person is someone whose influence is overall harmful to the people around them.
Odin posits that most of the Questionable Content characters are toxic people due to their personalities.
We, the fans, are fans because we empathize with the characters.
People empathize best with people similar to themselves.
Therefore, the Questionable Content characters are at least somewhat similar in personality to the majority of the people reading it.
Therefore, Odin posits that we are all toxic people.
The implication that one is a toxic person is harmful to one's own self-esteem.
Odin's influence is therefore harmful to the people around him.
This makes Odin what?
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To summarize:
A toxic person is someone whose influence is overall harmful to the people around them.
Odin posits that most of the Questionable Content characters are toxic people due to their personalities.
We, the fans, are fans because we empathize with the characters.
People empathize best with people similar to themselves.
Therefore, the Questionable Content characters are at least somewhat similar in personality to the majority of the people reading it.
Therefore, Odin posits that we are all toxic people.
The implication that one is a toxic person is harmful to one's own self-esteem.
Odin's influence is therefore harmful to the people around him.
This makes Odin what?
This. (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/sy-1313477311/britney_spears_toxic_official_music_video/)
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sorry, what's TL;DR ?
Although, really Dora, don't encourage Pintsize.
:laugh: Pintsize, Relationship Counselor.
Oh, and points to Marten for more full disclosure. So long as he holds to that, he keeps the moral authority (or whatever you want to call it)
I call it the moral high ground. It's a good thing to hold onto. :-D
Funny, I didn't have an issue with the word "handling", as I agree that Dora does need it. What I didn't like today was Marten's line of "You're not a mess" (because she is, albeit not as much of one as some others), and his line "We can fix this". I'm trying to decide what it is about that particular line that I don't like. I think it's partly the "we", because while Marten can help, I do think Dora needs outside help more...Marten's done all he can I believe.
I think he's saying these technically "inaccurate" things to make it clear to her that he's on her side in the coming struggle. She needs his total support here, more than accurate criticism. :oops: (Some of us have had to learn that kind of discretion...)
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TL;DR or TLDNR stands for Too Long; Didn't Read or Too Long Did Not Read.
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Thank you, Duke.
90% of my other internet posting is on the SomethingAwful forums, so the crossover of abrasiveness isn't intentional, it's just the general tone...
Thanks, Randy. :-D
>Edit, after Carl-E's correction below< omg, you're right, Carl; sorry... Sorry, Randy! :oops:
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I think you're confusing Something Awful (http://www.somethingawful.com/) with Something*Positive (http://www.somethingpositive.net/index.html)...
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Psychological abuse is real. I knew someone who would propose something reasonable and ask in a worried tone "Are you all right with that?", trying to get the other party to think they were being a prima donna.
This is abuse?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
A roundabout way of hurting someone, but effective if your goal is to break them down and convince them they have gone crazy and need you to survive.
A little manipulative, but if that is the extent of the "abuser's" behavior, it doesn't amount to gaslighting.
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Psychological abuse is real. I knew someone who would propose something reasonable and ask in a worried tone "Are you all right with that?", trying to get the other party to think they were being a prima donna.
This is abuse?
It is certainly manipulative, and quite enough to earn someone a place on my "watch it, this is a person to regard with caution and mistrust" list, but I'm not sure that I'd rank it as abuse.
So how do you solve a problem like Dora?
<SNIP>What saddens me is that no one got the reference in the title. :(
I don't know how many fans of "The Sound Of Music" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1HwVmY28Pk) there are on this board.
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Well, there are those of who are not, possibly because our parent insisted on watched the benighted thing every time E-annBeeCee (I think) trotted that nag out again, and there was only one TV in the house, so what do you do? (Read a ton, that's what) We are not fans of Gone With the Wind for similar reasons. We do like the book okay, though.
We did get the Dr. Demento ref: Tai Quan Leap.
We're now going to stop writing as though our last name is Windsor.
Edit: Another 'challenge': who got the movie ref in my post? Hint: It's missing a letter.
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Re: abusive relationships:
If I were to do something racially insensitive - for example, dropping an N-Bomb in casual conversation - I'd be called racist, even if I did not mean anything racially hurtful by saying it. And rightly so. It's not the intention behind the behaviour, it's the behaviour itself that defines what I've done. And far more importantly, it's the consequences. No matter how open-minded I was trying to be, if I'm being a racist prick, I deservingly get labelled as such.
So now let's assume I have a relationship with someone. I don't go out of my way to make them miserable. I don't shout at them or physically harm them in any way. But, even if I'm totally ignorant to what I'm doing, I manage to get them to open their heart before I take a big steaming dump in there. I do this over and over until the person I'm with feels like utter trash, at which point I break up with them. At no point have I intentionally or maliciously tried to hurt them. But, because of how I've acted, this will shatter their sense of self-worth and cause them to question every relationship they have later in life, acting like a damaged person.
The intentions may be different to a "real" abusive relationship. The actions may be different to a "real" abusive relationship. But the consequences, unfortunately, are not. Especially if, like in Dora's case, this happens to you time after time after time. It'd absolutely destroy you as a person.
I do get that if someone is in an intentionally, maliciously abusive relationship, it's a million times worse. So if you've had to deal with that, then someone describing a string of ex-boyfriends who were dicks to be "abusive" may seem like they're cheapening it. And I'm sorry. Still, it's applying different standards to the same category of nastiness. Just because Shitty Thing #1 is worse than Shitty Thing #2 does not mean that Shitty Thing #2 isn't shitty.
Speaking as myself I've never had to deal with that sort of thing, and C'thul'hu willing I never will. But hey, a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, and a relationship where one person's left in ruins while the other walks away as a high-and-mighty arsehole is abusive. The end.
EDIT:
Also, yes, I did get The Sound Of Music. Actually I saw that reference as being so easy that I assumed I must have been oblivious and missing what you were really referencing. :D Alas, I don't recognize raoullefere's latest challenge, though.
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Yeah, unless you're describing it very poorly or not getting the whole story (and from the idea of executives getting counselling and suing, I imagine it's one of those), that doesn't sound like psychological abuse. Which isn't to say there's no such thing - someone comparable to the man in Gaslight would certainly be guilty.
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Finally!!!
For some reason I haven't been able to get QC or the Forum to load all day down here where I am in Kiwiland. I kept getting 'Can't Find Server' on my Browser (Safari) and it was even more frustrating when two of my friends, and fellow QC followers (but not Forumites) told me they could get it to load. One's in Alaska and one's in Britain.
Good to be able to finally get back in, but that was totally weird.
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if that is the extent of the "abuser's" behavior, it doesn't amount to gaslighting.
Oh, that wasn't the extent of it.
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Yay comic!
See, Faye, I could have told you already - all it takes is one little incident where you aren't wearing pants, and your social circle can be destroyed forever.
Incidents that can also destroy your social circle may include:
- Large amounts of yoghurt
- One or more live guinea pigs
- A snorkel
- A bouncing castle
- All of the above, plus no pants
...nobody goes to carnivals with me any more.
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And here I thought it was your fascination with Gene Wilder.
Yay! Faye's still gainfully employed!
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If I were to do something racially insensitive - for example, dropping an N-Bomb in casual conversation - I'd be called racist, even if I did not mean anything racially hurtful by saying it. And rightly so. It's not the intention behind the behaviour, it's the behaviour itself that defines what I've done. And far more importantly, it's the consequences. No matter how open-minded I was trying to be, if I'm being a racist prick, I deservingly get labelled as such.
So now let's assume I have a relationship with someone. I don't go out of my way to make them miserable. I don't shout at them or physically harm them in any way. But, even if I'm totally ignorant to what I'm doing, I manage to get them to open their heart before I take a big steaming dump in there. I do this over and over until the person I'm with feels like utter trash, at which point I break up with them. At no point have I intentionally or maliciously tried to hurt them. But, because of how I've acted, this will shatter their sense of self-worth and cause them to question every relationship they have later in life, acting like a damaged person.
I'm not really sure I agree with either of those assertions. If someone said or did something racially insensitive without hurtful intent, I'd give them a chance to explain or apologize before I assumed they are a racist. Perhaps it was a foot-in-mouth moment, perhaps it was racial ignorance (which I do not consider the same as racism, but labeling a racially ignorant person as a racist without further conversation is a good way to turn them into one). So I don't really agree that the racist label would necessarily be justified in that situation.
As for the relationship scenario, in that case some blame would have to be placed on the "victim" as well. Just as you were theoretically blind to their attempts to move the relationship forward emotionally and to the pain you caused them by not obliging, they were blind to the fact that that is not what you wanted and/or you weren't getting their message. Both parties failed to communicate effectively. They are just as responsible for that damage as you are, if not more. You didn't act abusively. Obliviously, but not abusively. This comparison is silly, but it is late. I'm trying to enter a friend's house. Instead of knocking or opening the door, I just walk towards it and expect them to open it for me. They know I'm arriving around that time, but I have not alerted them to my arrival. Thus, the door remains closed and I run into it. I keep doing this and eventually I break my nose. Maybe it's a little their fault, they knew I was coming over and could have looked for me. But for the most part I did it to myself. Regardless, my nose is still broken.
The intentions may be different to a "real" abusive relationship. The actions may be different to a "real" abusive relationship. But the consequences, unfortunately, are not. Especially if, like in Dora's case, this happens to you time after time after time. It'd absolutely destroy you as a person.
My point several posts ago is that Dora was not absolutely destroyed as a person. She's got some issues, but if we're judging the consequences of the past relationships, she does not seem to have suffered anything at the level of emotional abuse.
Edit: The reasons I don't like the word "abuse" being used so loosely are more than personal annoyance and cheapening. Say a girl was in a relationship with a guy who cheated on her. After breaking up, she decides to refer to that relationship as abusive. This affects how people treat her, particularly future boyfriends. Perhaps it's not her intent to manipulate others, but that is what she is doing. She could have received sympathy and attention by just telling the truth. Future boyfriends would understand the importance of openness, loyalty and trust for her, assuming they aren't dolts. But by using the word "abusive," she's exaggerating the gravity and manipulating them. There are also people that are quick to accuse others of abuse when they are unhappy with how someone is treating them. If the accused party's confidence/state of mind/etc. is not the greatest, the accusation may likely change how they interact with the accuser even if the accused party did nothing wrong. Granted, some people do this to manipulate others on purpose. But others many not realize the effect such an accusation could have. For many people, "abuse" is a loaded word and IMHO, serious consideration should be put into using it.
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I'm not really sure I agree with either of those assertions. If someone said or did something racially insensitive without hurtful intent, I'd give them a chance to explain or apologize before I assumed they are a racist. Perhaps it was a foot-in-mouth moment, perhaps it was racial ignorance (which I do not consider the same as racism, but labeling a racially ignorant person as a racist without further conversation is a good way to turn them into one). So I don't really agree that the racist label would necessarily be justified in that situation.
As for the relationship scenario, in that case some blame would have to be placed on the "victim" as well. Just as you were theoretically blind to their attempts to move the relationship forward emotionally and to the pain you caused them by not obliging, they were blind to the fact that that is not what you wanted and/or you weren't getting their message. Both parties failed to communicate effectively. They are just as responsible for that damage as you are, if not more. You didn't act abusively. Obliviously, but not abusively. This comparison is silly, but it is late. I'm trying to enter a friend's house. Instead of knocking or opening the door, I just walk towards it and expect them to open it for me. They know I'm arriving around that time, but I have not alerted them to my arrival. Thus, the door remains closed and I run into it. I keep doing this and eventually I break my nose. Maybe it's a little their fault, they knew I was coming over and could have looked for me. But for the most part I did it to myself. Regardless, my nose is still broken.
Hmm... I guess I do see your point on that score, yes. It's easy for me to say that Dora's the victim here because I like her character and all I have is a bunch of faceless bastards to represent her boyfriends, most of whom were apparently Alpha-Goths and at least one of whom is into Urinophillia. So I'm not really being fair on that score. She's done it to herself without properly considering that she can deal with it better. I could argue about how it's still abuse if the victim doesn't do anything to help themselves, but you're right, she's not being an innocent little flower here.
My point several posts ago is that Dora was not absolutely destroyed as a person. She's got some issues, but if we're judging the consequences of the past relationships, she does not seem to have suffered anything at the level of emotional abuse.
She still functions in a lot of ways, but she's also got some pretty severe problems. She breaks into a screaming session at her two best friends, one of whom she loves, because the two are sitting around talking at night? That's not a healthy person by any standard. She's been damaged to the extent that she can't function properly. Maybe not so much that it destroyed her life - that was a little bit of an overstatement - but I still think my sentiment remains valid. It's crippled one aspect of her ability to interact with others, as a direct result of what happened to her in past relationships.
Again, I'm sure you've seen so much worse... this is a figurative bump on the knee compared to the mental (and physical) beatings some people take from properly abusive relaionships. But it clearly wasn't any standard of a healthy relationship either. So... I dont' know. How do we look at this?
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So... I dont' know. How do we look at this?
I actually think just saying "she dated a bunch of cheating bastards" sums it up pretty well. Or "she was in several bad relationships." That, in combination with being abandoned by her friends for Sven, explains her insecurity issues, I think. I have some opinions on the latest outburst, but they're kind of irrelevant to the current conversation.
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What Sven said is ambiguous and could cover anything from simply being inconsiderate up to being abusive in the strictest sense of the word. We just don't know.
But whatever happened was almost certainly bad enough for Faye to assault Dora's exes with dairy products.
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For want of a pair of pants and a bra, the entire QC Continuum was lost.
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But whatever happened was almost certainly bad enough for Faye to assault Dora's exes with dairy products.
Faye did that to Marten's ex girlfriend, not Dora's.
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I never knew Faye was a fan of The Last Temptation of Christ. (I know, that's a little oblique. But work with me)
Urp. Ah. BurrraWALL 'o TEXT!
When a person reacts to a particular situation in a way completely out of keeping with the way she reacts to other closely related situations, my guess would be there's some sort of damage, some hurt that's been caused by that particular circumstance. With Dora, it seems to me to be Marten making choices she's not aware he's going to make, with an emphasis on these being related to his (in Dora's POV) cheating on her or getting ready to dump her. That's why it's okay for Marten to look at other girls when Dora's around—no threat. On the other hand, getting a haircut without discussing it with her is a threat. Why? There's a chance he's doing it to impress another woman, one that Dora knows nothing of because she was never in on 'the decision-making process.' Marten can dress up rather provocatively and pose with strange women (Magic Love Dude) when Dora knows what he's doing, but he can't sit in his underwear with Faye because she doesn't (or worse, is afraid she does). She tests him about Cosette because it falls into the same parameter—Marten interacting with another woman when Dora knows nothing of it. Notice Dora wasn't at all upset Marten got to see Tai bottomless because she knows what is and isn't happening then—the same for feeling up Hanners. Marten's never shown any attraction to Tai, who's a confirmed lesbian, and Hanners is clearly sexually disabled. Faye, on the other hand, has a romantic history with Marten, and so it trips Dora's trigger.
That's pretty specific, and suggests specific damage to me. The only incident that doesn't really fit that pattern is her blowing up at Faye over the Sven hook-up (not the fight with Marten, which does fit—in Doravision he's defending Faye because he prefers her). That suggests to me it's another sort of betrayal. It's simply my guess those friends using her to get into Sven's room and pants led to Dora thinking of herself as undesirable or unwanted, which made her ripe prey for these 'Alpha-Goths' to dominate. (Becomes Freudian) That ist vy I still blame Sven, and ze parents for letting him get avay mit his 'passive poaching.' (God, that was awful) It sends a definite message about your self-worth when it's demonstrated repeatedly you're simply a stepping stone to get to be with someone else. Having everything come easily to that someone reinforces the message—he's better than you, more deserving. Even the freaking Universe thinks so.
Something just occurred to me: is it possible the attraction of the Alpha-Goths (AGs) were they seemed to be similar to Sven—assertive, always get what they want, etc—and yet seems to actually want Dora? Interesting thought, anyway.
The weird mix in this to me is that Dora is otherwise assertive—in fact, I'd guess she actually 'went after' these AGs, stealing them from other girls (Sven makes a comment about this way back when), or so she thought. She may also have dumped them when they cheated on her, but it was still a betrayal, a repeat of the friends/Sven situation. In other words, Dora may have been angry, but she still set her failure down to her own lack of worth. Or it could simply be one of those inconsistancies we've been batting about.
I still think Dora's perception of her self-worth as a desirable person (not as a businesswoman—she seems, again, to be pretty specific) is at the core of all this, and I'm not sure just being more open is a fix, although it may be a start.
But that doesn't mean Dora's not worth Marten fighting for. Dora is a special snowflake to Marten, which, of course, means I take issue with one of Odin's points, his theory of 'trading up' to someone "better." It reminds me of an ass I know personally who claims that all people outside of immediate family (read brothers, sisters, parents) are 'fungible' (he's an accountant). Working on that theory, he's been married about six times now. I have no idea if he keeps 'moving up' or not (if he is, I can't tell), but I do know he's one of the loneliest people I've ever met.
I don't believe in 'soul-mates,' 'love at first sight,' or any of those staples of Hollowood (even though it could be said my own experience contradicts that) but I do think most of us can find someone who, even if they're not the prettiest, the wealthiest, the most chaste, the most uninhibited, the most intelligent, the cleverest, and so on, person who's ever existed, still clicks with us, if not, perhaps, with others. The 'click' is just the start, though. If you want more than that, you have to work at it, through bad times and good, and you really don't get to stop. Special snowflakes aren't found—they're very carefully crafted. Does the crafting always work? Of course not! You plays the game and you takes your chances, and sometimes, indeed, you counts up your losses, make a decision, and move on. But sometimes it does work…
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But whatever happened was almost certainly bad enough for Faye to assault Dora's exes with dairy products.
Faye did that to Marten's ex girlfriend, not Dora's.
The implication is that she would do the same for Dora's exes if the occasion arose.
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How did Dora know that Faye was sans bra?
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Oh come on...
If you were there, how could you not tell? It's an easy call with large-breasted women.
Besides, they were practically in her face during the Faysplosion.
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Lots of stuff . . .
Something just occurred to me: is it possible the attraction of the Alpha-Goths (AGs) were they seemed to be similar to Sven—assertive, always get what they want, etc—and yet seems to actually want Dora? Interesting thought, anyway.
Lots of stuff . . .
When I postulated the exes were goth versions of pre-Faye Sven, I had a similar feeling. It seemed a little icky. But maybe she felt if she could be with someone like Sven, then she was as desirable/successful/etc. as Sven. More rivalry-related than icky.
I agree with a lot of what you said, but I wanted to add my own thought. Back when Dora was explaining her issues with Sven, she said popularity/girls/grades/professional success all came really easily to him and that she had to try to do a fraction as well as he did. Then look at how Dora and Faye have done romantically since the comic started. Marten, Angus, and Sven all fell pretty hard for Faye without any effort on her part. Dora had to pursue Marten after Faye told him nothing would happen. Yet again Dora finds herself in a situation where someone she is close to succeeds effortlessly when she has to really try to do just partially as well (though this time it was, in part, of her own making). Is it possible that some of the rivalry and jealousy she felt with Sven has been transferred to Faye? If so, then for Marten to leave her for Faye would feel a lot like the times her so-called friends would ditch her to hook up with her brother. Just another reason why she would react so irrationally to finding Marten and Faye in a compromising position.
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How did Dora know that Faye was sans bra?
With Faye it should be fairly bloody obvious to anyone who can see her actually move. We can't unfortunately.
Also if we assume that the characters "see" fully-realised and detailed life-like 3D objects instead of the reduced-complexity 2D models Jeph draws, bra- and panty-lines would be obvious through a t-shirt.
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If we could get a look at Jeph's lovingly-rendered models of Faye's boobs it might help. But they're covered with greasy fingerprints and lip marks.
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But they're covered with greasy fingerprints and lip marks.
Wait, how do you know that?
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Talk about being around toxic people...
No shit, some morons over there are actually arguing that burning the Koran would be a smart thing to do in the thread they have over there discussing it and I'm having a very hard time not crossing even the very far-flung lines there telling them how fucking stupid they are.
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So how do you solve a problem like Dora?
<SNIP>What saddens me is that no one got the reference in the title. :(
I don't know how many fans of "The Sound Of Music" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1HwVmY28Pk) there are on this board.
I would've got it! I more or less know all the songs in The Sound of Music by heart. I just uh, never read the titles :|
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What is it with Bianchis and Faye's tits? I mean, it's one thing to notice. It's quite another thing to make comments! In the case of Sven, very rude comments.
As for, "For want of a bra and a pair of pants, the QC Continuum was lost", raise your hands, everyone who's ever gone to bed in an ensemble including both a bra and a pair of pants.
*raises hand*
Was it remotely comfortable? Hell no.
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Oh come on...
If you were there, how could you not tell? It's an easy call with large-breasted women.
Besides, they were practically in her face during the Faysplosion.
The way she walked into the room, it would have been PAINFULLY obvious.
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What will be Faye's fate?
Back at work again - naturally. - 9 (28.1%)
Dora will completely forget about her (think "Home Alone") - 3 (9.4%)
She goes and elopes with Angus. - 0 (0%)
She moves to Minneapolis to work at a local TV station. - 4 (12.5%)
Two words: Yelling Bird. - 2 (6.3%)
She opens her own Waffle House out by the Interstate. - 3 (9.4%)
Asps. - 1 (3.1%)
UBMEOD against Norse Gods. - 10 (31.3%)
Total Voters: 32
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I have to say, even a crazy person could probably see Faye'd set her dependents free the first time she shifted position. Sven's overly detailed description backs that up—if you've ever seen one of those girls he's talking about walking about wearing only a t-shirt in one of those videos my friends forced me to watch back in the day*, you know what I mean.
Plus, doesn't Dora already know Faye doesn't sleep in a bra? (Does anyone actually do that?) She looked fairly unsupported back when she and Dora were standing around without pants, too.
When I postulated the exes were goth versions of pre-Faye Sven, I had a similar feeling. It seemed a little icky. But maybe she felt if she could be with someone like Sven, then she was as desirable/successful/etc. as Sven. More rivalry-related than icky.
I agree with a lot of what you said, but I wanted to add my own thought. Back when Dora was explaining her issues with Sven, she said popularity/girls/grades/professional success all came really easily to him and that she had to try to do a fraction as well as he did. Then look at how Dora and Faye have done romantically since the comic started. Marten, Angus, and Sven all fell pretty hard for Faye without any effort on her part. Dora had to pursue Marten after Faye told him nothing would happen. Yet again Dora finds herself in a situation where someone she is close to succeeds effortlessly when she has to really try to do just partially as well (though this time it was, in part, of her own making). Is it possible that some of the rivalry and jealousy she felt with Sven has been transferred to Faye? If so, then for Marten to leave her for Faye would feel a lot like the times her so-called friends would ditch her to hook up with her brother. Just another reason why she would react so irrationally to finding Marten and Faye in a compromising position.
I think rivalry, if you want to call it that, is the ticket. Dora doesn't want to boff Sven—she wants to be wanted like he is. I see what you're getting at about Dora and Faye, but at the same time it's a great stretch to see Faye, as defensive as she is, as Sven. Until, of course, Faye starts having sex with Sven. Then, my friend, you've a very definite case, if only because that situation throws Dora back into her old dynamic, something she's being trying to leave behind: hence her dropping the Goth thing, being interested in Marty as opposed to her usual 'type,' and so on.
*Manlaw 35, supplementary: Never, ever admit to viewing Playboy products. For some reason, it's cooler to confess to watching out-and-out, balls-to-the-wall, ass-riding pron than cop to that.
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Plus, doesn't Dora already know Faye doesn't sleep in a bra? (Does anyone actually do that?)
My partner does. She complains that they are uncomfortable and shifty and wears a sports bra.
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Talk about being around toxic people...
No shit, some morons over there are actually arguing that burning the Koran would be a smart thing to do in the thread they have over there discussing it and I'm having a very hard time not crossing even the very far-flung lines there telling them how fucking stupid they are.
Ha. I liked what wheezywaiter said about that: "I also like to protest isolated incidents involving small groups of people in a way that will offend billions."
And re: comic, sleeping in a bra is the most uncomfortable thing. They're made for sitting upright/standing, not lying down and twisting around. I can't see the point of wearing one to bed. :|
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What is it with Bianchis and Faye's tits? I mean, it's one thing to notice. It's quite another thing to make comments! In the case of Sven, very rude comments.
I'm sorry, "very rude"? Did I miss them? As I read his comments on her wonderful boobage, they are admiring, respectful, and impressed, not rude. My favorite former GF had the body and breasts of a goddess, and she wore sports bras, almost exclusively.
One could definitely tell when she did without.
It was distracting to nearby male brains, such as mine, and perhaps I retain that awestruck, hushed, even worshipful state of mind, when Sven mentions these natural wonders. :sigh:
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Plus, doesn't Dora already know Faye doesn't sleep in a bra? (Does anyone actually do that?)
My partner does. She complains that they are uncomfortable and shifty and wears a sports bra.
I could understand that, actually. I have DD's and am unable to sleep on my stomach because of it. Wearing a shirt at the very least is mandatory, due to flopping, or "shifting," when I turn over.
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in fact, I'd guess she actually 'went after' these AGs, stealing them from other girls (Sven makes a comment about this way back when)
I don't remember that comment. Do you have enough context or keywords that I could look it up?
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Sven recalls Dora's 'girl-ninjary'. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=335
He also says Dora's selfless beyond what's good for her. It's not clear (to me, anyway) if that's in the context of relationships or just in general. Given what he said to Marten a few strips ago, I'd say in general, though.
Two strips later, we also get the idea Sven has no idea the extent that Dora's really affected by his poaching. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=337
Edit: Dammit, now I can't stop reading the archives.
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that's why I try not to start more than once or twice a year....
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I see what you're getting at about Dora and Faye, but at the same time it's a great stretch to see Faye, as defensive as she is, as Sven. Until, of course, Faye starts having sex with Sven. Then, my friend, you've a very definite case, if only because that situation throws Dora back into her old dynamic, something she's being trying to leave behind: hence her dropping the Goth thing, being interested in Marty as opposed to her usual 'type,' and so on.
I think I relied too much on inference when I explained. Because of the feelings of inadequacy she developed from her relationship with Sven, Dora is quick to compare herself to other people and goes a little crazy if she doesn't measure up in any respect.
For example, http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1618 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1618). Marigold demonstrated that she's more computer literate than Dora and Dora responded very defensively. While it was mean for Dora to say those things, she's right; overall she has a lot more going for her than Marigold does. So why did she care so much that she doesn't measure up in a field she had previously described as a hobby?
So I don't think it matters that Faye was too defensive to ever get involved with any of the guys that fell for her. From what we've seen, Faye attracts suitors more easily than Dora. That probably hasn't been easy for Dora to watch, especially before she started dating Marten.
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Change that to 'Dora is quick to compare herself to other people and goes a little crazy if she doesn't measure up in any respect that she thinks she should,' and you may have something. For example, she's not upset when Marigold repairs Pintsize, even though Dora herself was his last 'doctor.'
Still, she's able to quickly self-correct in this blow-up. Why not at other times?
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how often do people call marten marty?
because whenever I read marty, I just think about the fish-lipped dicksucking furry from the clubstriped comics.
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As for, "For want of a bra and a pair of pants, the QC Continuum was lost", raise your hands, everyone who's ever gone to bed in an ensemble including both a bra and a pair of pants.
*raises hand*
Was it remotely comfortable? Hell no.
Gee, I dunno
May the fact that I was being humourous might have come to mind?!!!
:roll:
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how often do people call marten marty?
Faye does quite often; but when his mother did, he objected (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=446).
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because whenever I read marty, I just think about the fish-lipped dicksucking furry from the clubstriped comics.
You either win or lose an internet. I can't decide.
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how often do people call marten marty?
Faye does quite often; but when his mother did, he objected (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=446).
Faye only started after hearing his mother do it, and his objection is to Faye's usage (that comic being the first use by someone other than his mother).
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I love reading the forums, getting to see everyone's opinions, but I had to make one correction:
Oh for Christ's sake. Marten, of all the characters, a "toxic" person. Dora needing to be dumped by "wussy" Marten. What's next, calling Hanners a crybaby attention-getter who should toss out her pills and stop seeing a "head-shrinker?"
I suspect some of the people on this forum--not most, most of you folks are great--have never meaningfully interacted with other human beings in person, except when required to for work, school or family occasions. Have never had a real friendship or relationship--again, in person.
Because such people don't seem to have a rolling fucking doughnut of an idea as to what makes real human beings--not D&D characters or MMPORG "hordes" or superheroes or whatever--tick.
To them I say: turn off your PC, go outside and meet people. Take a class. Volunteer for a non-profit cause. Hang around bookstores or jazz cafes. Get to know human beings in all their wonderful, frustrating, colourful, exhilirating, exhausting diversity. And then see if you're so damn sure about who is or isn't "toxic" or "wussy" or whatever neat little boxes you so cavalierly put people in.
the above is all great, I think it's fine - but here's my correction. It's called MMORPG.
And on a side note, I have played an MMORPG for over five years (world of warcraft - I only feel compelled to mention it because you mentioned horde.. I play both)
I think I have a great rolling fucking doughnut of an idea as to what makes a real human beings..
Just saying :)
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dC'thul'hu willing I never will.
It's just Cthulhu! Just Cthulhu, no apostrophes, and it's fhtagn, Jeph! You heathen fools are going to suffer when the Dreaming Hierophant rises from his ancient and timeless city, suffer, I tell you!
What is it with Bianchis and Faye's tits? I mean, it's one thing to notice. It's quite another thing to make comments! In the case of Sven, very rude comments.
I'm sorry, "very rude"? Did I miss them? As I read his comments on her wonderful boobage, they are admiring, respectful, and impressed, not rude. My favorite former GF had the body and breasts of a goddess, and she wore sports bras, almost exclusively.
One could definitely tell when she did without.
It was distracting to nearby male brains, such as mine, and perhaps I retain that awestruck, hushed, even worshipful state of mind, when Sven mentions these natural wonders. :sigh:
Amen, sir. Amen. It is not rude to say of a lady's boobs that they are "AUGH AMAZING", that is the Highest Compliment, and doubtless the lady should be aware!
I wonder if the Bianchi family just has a "boob sense". They can detect great boobs when they are...unleashed? Or...something...
because whenever I read marty, I just think about the fish-lipped dicksucking furry from the clubstriped comics.
You either win or lose an internet. I can't decide.
aaaaaaauuuuuggh my mind's eye aaaaaaaaauuuuugh i vote lose
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how often do people call marten marty?
Faye does quite often; but when his mother did, he objected (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=446).
Faye only started after hearing his mother do it, and his objection is to Faye's usage (that comic being the first use by someone other than his mother).
That is a terrific insight (translation: I'd never noticed) which should rightfully get you a nomination to the Guild of Archive Masters.
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dC'thul'hu willing I never will.
It's just Cthulhu! Just Cthulhu, no apostrophes, and it's fhtagn, Jeph! You heathen fools are going to suffer when the Dreaming Hierophant rises from his ancient and timeless city, suffer, I tell you!
Guys, please. Can we keep the denominational bickering off this thread? Thanks.
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Next thing you know, they'll be threatening to burn each other's holy books...
Wait, can you burn a necronomicon? or is it redundant?
Anyway, I'm not sure who I'm more impressed by after reading the referred strips in Raoullefere's post quoted below. It's a tossup between Raoullefere himself for spotting how they exemplify Dora's current character issues over 1400 strips ago, or Jeph for actually writing a character who's so consistant and deep that she stands up to this kind of analysis...
Sven recalls Dora's 'girl-ninjary'. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=335
He also says Dora's selfless beyond what's good for her. It's not clear (to me, anyway) if that's in the context of relationships or just in general. Given what he said to Marten a few strips ago, I'd say in general, though.
Two strips later, we also get the idea Sven has no idea the extent that Dora's really affected by his poaching. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=337
Edit: Dammit, now I can't stop reading the archives.
Aw hell, I'm blown away by both of you.
Internets all around, on the house!
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Actually I did check before using that spelling. I've seen it before, and according to Wikipedia (yeah, I know it's not the best resource, but still...) I can give or take the apostrophes. It's a variation, but not actually incorrect according to what I've seen.
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because whenever I read marty, I just think about the fish-lipped dicksucking furry from the clubstriped comics.
must make it hard to watch Back To The Future.
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Actually I did check before using that spelling. I've seen it before, and according to Wikipedia (yeah, I know it's not the best resource, but still...) I can give or take the apostrophes. It's a variation, but not actually incorrect according to what I've seen.
It is 克苏鲁 (Kčsūlǔ) in Chinese. And when he rises, I doubt he'll concern himself with the spelling of insignificant gnats like us...
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Truly. Spelling "insignificant gnats like us" will be the least of what Ol' Tentacle-gob will be getting up to.
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The question is, what's the stronger monster: Cthulhu or bureaucracy?
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No contest, Cthulu's an old god.
Beureaucracy's just a travesty...
OK, in the interest of spurring further discussion, I'm gonna share the near-horrifying thought I had whilst test driving a car today (no, I still haven't replaced the bear-beater).
What's the strongest sign Marten can give Dora that he's not going to cheat on her, leave her, or trash their relationship in any other way?
I don't think Jeph's going there, not yet. At least, I hope that's not where this is heading before a lot more gets resolved.
So, maybe 2025 or so? Of course, if everyone waited until they were ready, it would never happen...
On another note, I forgot to crow about calling at least two days worth of comics (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,25015.msg959226.html#msg959226)... didn't even remember doing it until I was rereading the thread. I gotta get more sleep...
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The question is, what's the stronger monster: Cthulhu or bureaucracy?
Tough question. Let's consider this on the point of view or Asterix and Obelix. Obviously, Obelix would just eat Cthulhu with a hollandaise; as for Asterix, he's able to turn bureaucracy over its head by requesting for imaginary red tape.
So, who knows?
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What's the strongest sign Marten can give Dora that he's not going to cheat on her, leave her, or trash their relationship in any other way?
Why, getting 'Dora' tattooed across his chest in five-inch-high 'flaming' letters, of course. But I agree that's a big step.
Glad you're going to be able to replace the bear-beaten (since the bear ran off and the car didn't, I think you got confused about that last letter). Can you perhaps get a bear-catcher (http://www.locomotivegeneral.com/generalparts/pages/CowCatcher.htm) installed on this one? Or is that an option with the model you're considering?
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Don't think anyone offers a bear-bumper. I buy used, anyway. maybe I can get one retrofit? retrofitted? retrofought?
A retrofit is a fit that happened before you were born...
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Why, getting 'Dora' tattooed across his chest in five-inch-high 'flaming' letters, of course.
Yeah, Marten could probably fit "Dora" across his puny, indie-rock physique (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1313). Just as well he's not dating Hannelore. Or a Hapsburg (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=410).
Was that bitchy? :-D
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Yes.
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Yeah, I'm not sure about chest tatoos for guys. Eventually, hair grows there...
and a furry Dora (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1526) just wouldn't look right!
On the other hand,
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_TNuWlvekggw/SzYmGpDv94I/AAAAAAAABOc/AHa3Faoz2Bo/s400/claire500.JPG)
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thats actually pretty cute.
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i rather like it as well
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Well, I suppose it beats ass-antlers. Okay, to be fair, some of those work, and some don't, but I always think about what will happen when age causes the fundament below the 'rack' becomes less pert. This, at least, won't have that problem.
Do think about what you're doing when getting yourself inscribed. I recently had to work with a quite intelligent, industrious lady who, for reasons I do not wish to know, had 'White Chocolate' tattooed as a collar of sorts just high enough on her chest that it peered over the neck of every shirt and blouse she wore. Bothersome. On the other hand, I dealt with a former Marine corporal who had several largish inked areas, (wrist and forearm, as I recall) but none where I had to stare at them every time I looked her in the face. In fact, I had to think a moment when a co-worker of mine whispered 'did you see her wrist?' to recall them.
As for the hair, if memory serves, Marten's not overly hirsute beyond the median line of his chest and abdomen. Should be fine.
Why, getting 'Dora' tattooed across his chest in five-inch-high 'flaming' letters, of course.
Yeah, Marten could probably fit "Dora" across his puny, indie-rock physique (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1313). Just as well he's not dating Hannelore. Or a Hapsburg (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=410).
Was that bitchy? :-D
Maybe. It does bring a new terror to consorting with royalty, though, or anyone whose parents felt the need to ingratiate themselves to a small army of people.
I recall wondering when I read that one if Raven's tat actually said "Goofy Big-Uddered Girl." She should've got it done in runes. Those really do have mystical power— I mean, Odin wouldn't lie about that (http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/odins_magic.html). Would he?
Edit: The god, I mean. If the Odin who's posting here has hung himself on a tree or gouged out his eye, I don't wish to know about it.
Also, I hate confusing word substitutions. WHich is odd, since I make so many of them, Fixed one, though.
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Do think about what you're doing when getting yourself inscribed. <snip> I recall wondering when I read that one if Raven's tat actually said "Goofy Big-Uddered Girl."
Anyone even toying with the idea of getting a tattoo in Chinese or Japanese characters should read the blog Hanzi Smatter (http://hanzismatter.blogspot.com/). With any luck it will put them off the idea entirely.
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As for the hair, if memory serves, Marten's not overly hirsute beyond the median line of his chest and abdomen. Should be fine.
Maybe. There's a tendancy for it to spread and intensify as one ages, and you never know where it'll show up.
On a vacation a few years ago my brother saw me without a shirt on the beach (I stay covered up, I burn easily). His comment was that all the hair slid off my head and down my back...
Which is one of the reasons we only see each other a few days each year. He's easier to take in small doses!
But any tatoos I would have gotten on my then-hairless back (all through my 20's) would now be pretty well obscured.
So yeah, think twice.
Then think again.
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I've been put off tattoos by my grandfather. He used to be a sailor, and he has all kinds of mermaids and anchors on his arms - it looks pretty ridiculous now that he's old and wrinkly. :|
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The Moment of the Week in QC:
- Chill And Understanding - 0 (0%)
- Faye Cliff Notes (and loading docks) - 2 (4.9%)
- The Angst Solstice - 4 (9.8%)
- "Are you gonna break up with me?" - 2 (4.9%)
- Something we gotta fix. - 0 (0%)
- Full Disclosure, Crazy Bitch and Sense of Timing - 2 (4.9%)
- "The first genuinely Nice Guy" she's been with - 0 (0%)
- "I love you." "I love you too." - 10 (24.4%)
- "LESS TALKING MORE HOT MAKE-UP SEX" - 13 (31.7%) (Pintsize always steals the show)
- Whole Social Circle imploding over no PANTS! - 8 (19.5%)
Total Voters: 41
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Wonder if Raven's Kanji tattoo means anything embarrassing. Is it even an actual character?
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Do think about what you're doing when getting yourself inscribed. <snip> I recall wondering when I read that one if Raven's tat actually said "Goofy Big-Uddered Girl."
Anyone even toying with the idea of getting a tattoo in Chinese or Japanese characters should read the blog Hanzi Smatter (http://hanzismatter.blogspot.com/). With any luck it will put them off the idea entirely.
I've never understood how people screw things like that up. In the information age, it can't be that hard to find and print out the proper characters for the artist. If it's a full sentence, it's one thing, but most of those aren't.
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Wonder if Raven's Kanji tattoo means anything embarrassing. Is it even an actual character?
It is hard to see from the "fourth wall" viewpoint angle, but it is two characters. It actually looks like the modern Chinese for "princess": 公主 (gōngzhǔ) with bad calligraphy (which might have been Jeph's point, of course). Hanzi Smatter has a page discussing Raven's tattoo (http://www.hanzismatter.com/2005/07/it-says-princess-in-japanese.html).
I've never understood how people screw things like that up. In the information age, it can't be that hard to find and print out the proper characters for the artist. If it's a full sentence, it's one thing, but most of those aren't.
Beware. In Chinese at least, it is not quite that simple. Chinese characters (hŕnzě) are not isolated, unique "bricks" of meaning, but often have multiple meanings clarified by other characters with which they are written. This is no different from words in English; "air" and "plane" used alone have perfectly legitimate meanings (the gas we breathe, expressing an idea; a tool for smoothing wood, a concept in geometry) but put them together as "airplane" and you get a word only loosely associated with the meanings of the individual words. There are "rules" about how hanzi are put together which, if ignored, make the combination look... odd.
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i love that blog. i wonder if there's anyone out there you can send whatever you want tattooed, and they will translate and send you back the correct characters in the correct placement.
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i love that blog. i wonder if there's anyone out there you can send whatever you want tattooed, and they will translate and send you back the correct characters in the correct placement.
Hey, that's a great idea for a modern, internet-age business... 8-)
And thanks, Akima, for that good explanation why it's not that simple. air-plane, indeed.
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To me, it's an extremely silly notion. What's the big deal about having a character imprinted on you that you don't understand, that may or may not be correct, or that (possibly) might be a concept that only a master of those characters could properly express and the same properly understand?
Better far to simply design some symbol that you do understand, that has real meaning for you. If that's a word, then choose one you understand, and assign your own secret meaning to it, if you like. Chinese writing does not make a word magical—all words in all languages have that same 'magic.' I was joking about Odin before, but the old Norse had the right of it. Using symbols to represent something that's not even 'there' is high magic indeed.
On the other hand, if you truly crave to sport an obscure symbol or two on your hide, get something written on you in Linear B. It has some meaning you can look up, it'll be just as obscure to you, and the chances of running across someone who can actually dispute whatever meaning you believe it has with any authority will be dramatically decreased, since all the true 'expert' writers are very safely dead.
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Chinese writing does not make a word magical—all words in all languages have that same 'magic.' I was joking about Odin before, but the old Norse had the right of it. Using symbols to represent something that's not even 'there' is high magic indeed.
i very much agree with this, however, i don't think there's anything wrong with choosing a language/character/font/etc on aesthetic grounds. if it says the same thing (in theory) and you (hopefully) know what it means, then how much does the style really matter beyond that?
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It matters if you screw up or get screwed and instead of, say, "Courage" have "Does Not Move" or "Giant Chicken" or somesuch written on you. Or it least it would to me. There are some, I admit, who possess the ego or natural obliviousness to bull it out if this is revealed to them, of course.
To such individuals, though, I say this: selecting something that has an actual meaning to millions, perhaps even a billion or so people and trying to make it have another for you because you feel it 'looks cool,' to me, says some things about yourself that may not be cool at all. China, for example, has a teeny bit of history of being plundered by people who didn't understand her in the slightest and didn't really give a damn about what they were appropriating (and sometimes destroying), either. Why join those assholes?
The Mycenaeans, however, don't much care anymore.
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It matters if you screw up or get screwed and instead of, say, "Courage" have "Does Not Move" or "Giant Chicken" or somesuch written on you. Or it least it would to me. There are some, I admit, who possess the ego or natural obliviousness to bull it out if this is revealed to them, of course.
To such individuals, though, I say this: selecting something that has an actual meaning to millions, perhaps even a billion or so people and trying to make it have another for you because you feel it 'looks cool,' to me, says some things about yourself that may not be cool at all. China, for example, has a teeny bit of history of being plundered by people who didn't understand her in the slightest and didn't really give a damn about what they were appropriating (and sometimes destroying), either. Why join those assholes?
The Mycenaeans, however, don't much care anymore.
That's the whole joy of plundering though - I get it because I'm better at taking it than you are at keeping it.
On the other hand, suddenly finding out that what you thought was a symbol of badass masculinity actually means that you perform unnatural acts with farm animals might be quite embarrassing, and allows the "plundered" to get a good chuckle at the expense of the stupid.
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This conversation brings to mind one time when I was a teenager and my family went to a fancy Chinese restaurant. There was a framed picture on the wall, with beautiful calligraphy and borderwork around a set of characters. It was simple, striking, and beautiful. It drew our eye so much that my Mum proceeded to ask the waiter what it meant.
He gave her an odd look, then laughed and told her it said "No Smoking."
As far as getting foreign characters tattooed on yourself goes, I can certainly appreciate aesthetic beauty. Writing in other languages can look beautiful. But if you saw someone walking around with the letters SMPELAT tramp-stamped over their arse, you'd wonder what the hell they were thinking. Let alone if they had random words like BANNANA CHAIR FROG BUBBLE there instead. If you're on about aesthetics, I'd have to think that having the body-art equivalent of Tourette's Syndrome permanently affixed to your skin would be kind of a drawback.
I do like simpler variations of this, though. Celtic symbols, for example... they're beautiful and carry simple meaning. As long as you do your research, and make sure it means what you think, there's no issue.
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Celtic symbols, for example... they're beautiful and carry simple meaning. As long as you do your research, and make sure it means what you think, there's no issue.
I do calligraphy, and have seen some Chinese (hand-lettered with those handmade brushes) characters that are beautiful art, AND have meaning; it seems obvious to me that these are worth preserving and displaying...
That said, I will never get tattoos on my body. :-)
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It matters if you screw up or get screwed and instead of, say, "Courage" have "Does Not Move" or "Giant Chicken" or somesuch written on you.
On the other hand, suddenly finding out that what you thought was a symbol of badass masculinity actually means that you perform unnatural acts with farm animals might be quite embarrassing, and allows the "plundered" to get a good chuckle at the expense of the stupid.
But if you saw someone walking around with the letters SMPELAT tramp-stamped over their arse, you'd wonder what the hell they were thinking. Let alone if they had random words like BANNANA CHAIR FROG BUBBLE there instead. If you're on about aesthetics, I'd have to think that having the body-art equivalent of Tourette's Syndrome permanently affixed to your skin would be kind of a drawback.
hence the original idea:
i wonder if there's anyone out there you can send whatever you want tattooed, and they will translate and send you back the correct characters in the correct placement.
to clarify, the idea is that you can hire a native speaker of the chosen language to design you're tattoo for you and avoid these problems.
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That's the whole joy of plundering though - I get it because I'm better at taking it than you are at keeping it.
LOL, yeah... But like any awesome party, the hangover can be a bitch. When your humiliated victim turns into an extremely grumpy, nuclear-armed, emerging superpower. Which you spent a century or more teaching, in the most brutal way imaginable, that you are greedy, untrustworthy, racist, and respectful only of naked military and economic power. :-D And you still have to live with them. In a house made of egg-shells.
I don't, however, put stupid hanzi tattoos on quite the same level of ignorant cultural appropriation as Firefly, never mind the full-on neo-colonialism of Western museums refusing to return antiquities looted during the Opium Wars. :-(
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I'm rather fond of the opposite of hanzi tatoos, those t-shirts Japanese teens are fond of that have nonsensical English phrases on them.
Of course, they're not permanent...
I wonder how many of those teenagers get ill advised "Bad Engrish" tatoos?
I imagine they're not that stupid, but you never know... stupid is everywhere.
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S'alright we westerners often find our own cultural history too troublesome to get right - Mel Gibson's Braveheart and The Patriot are prime examples of taking a couple of stories taht can be a goldmine for inspiration, and make them really difficult to watch if you have any knowledge of the actual story....
For all those out there - the Scottish army of the Anglo-Scottish Wars DIDN'T wear kilts, or paint their faces blue (that died out about 1100 years before), and William Wallace was born into the knightly class.
It's not neo-colonialism, it's straight out theft, gussied up with weight of history and some questionable financial transactions with the locals.
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And all of your points are good enough arguments to me to not get a tattoo in the first place, thanks.
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I'd like to get a tattoo eventually, the problem is finding something I want for life.
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Burn anyone's book? I would never! Sic the Deep Ones on them, steal their rug, trap them in a weird cube full of puzzles, sure, but book burning? Please. I may be a zealot, but some things are just wrong...Not as wrong as heretical apostrophes, but wrong, nonetheless.
(*Disclaimer: I make my Orthodox Cthulhian rants in all good humor and with tongue planted firmly in cheek, just so we all know and I'm not hella offending anyone.)
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OK, in the interest of spurring further discussion, I'm gonna share the near-horrifying thought I had whilst test driving a car today:
What's the strongest sign Marten can give Dora that he's not going to cheat on her, leave her, or trash their relationship in any other way?
I don't think Jeph's going there, not yet. At least, I hope that's not where this is heading before a lot more gets resolved.
So, maybe 2025 or so? Of course, if everyone waited until they were ready, it would never happen...
Um... I think I see what Carl was hinting at, but no one seems to have gone there...
The awful, dangerous, shocking, deeply frightening, outlandishly radical, massively matriarchal (or patriarchal?), male-soul-destroying institution that got a lot of teeth gnashing a few pages ago.... [near-horrifying, indeed!]
(Dare i say it..?) Hint: if everyone waited til they were ready, it would never happen...
Yes, "Marriage."
Imagine, if you will, a universe in which Marten (at some point in the future, I don't think any of us are nearly ready for it) decides to propose to Dora... (No! I don't see it either! It's just a remote possibility that would, probably, reassure Dora, move the uber-plot forward, display massive character development, trigger a massive fanservicey (for the female readers) wedding arc, etc, etc.)
( I'm Not Ready!!! ) :-o
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Jeph said once that none of his characters were remotely ready to get married, but (A) he said that a long time ago, (B) they might not wait until they're ready.
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$20 bucks says that Pintsize is actually married to a network server in Mexico and never told anyone.
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It reminds me of when Kennedy said "one means 'danger,' and the other means 'opportunity'" - well, yes, because it's an opportunity for danger! That's what a crisis is!
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It reminds me of when Kennedy said "one means 'danger,' and the other means 'opportunity'" - well, yes, because it's an opportunity for danger! That's what a crisis is!
I assume you're referring to this JFK quotation: "When written in Chinese, the word "crisis" is composed of two characters. One represents danger and the other represents opportunity." There is only one problem with his remark. It is wrong.
The Chinese word for "crisis" is not, repeat not, repeat NOT made up of characters meaning "danger" and "opportunity". You don't have to take my word for it; Go and read this article (http://pinyin.info/chinese/crisis.html), or this one (http://smallbusiness411.org/wp/bacals-sandbox/myth-busting-chinese-danger-crisis-opportunity/), or this Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_word_for_%22crisis%22).
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It's probably one of those old myths like the one about the Chinese character for trouble.
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If you mean. "May you live in 'interesting times,'" the Kennedys were in on that, too.
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Yeah, but the good old Jam Doughnut wasn't exactly known for getting full marks in other languages, was he?