THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)
Comic Discussion => QUESTIONABLE CONTENT => Topic started by: flamingo on 18 Nov 2010, 14:11
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In the weekly thread, I saw some great finds of foreshadowing that this would happen... Any more?
http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1739 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1739)
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I've been too lazy to look up links lately, but there's a strip where Dora says she was sure the relationship would have already gone down in flames.
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http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1640
I just know it.
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Hopefully the breakup storyline will be over soon enough and we can get back to our normally scheduled strips on the subjects of sexual frustration and robotic dick jokes.
I predict that Martin goes into a downward spiral of emo and boring. Eventually Angus and Faye split (because Angus has always had that creepy stalker thing going) and then, after a year or two of emo strips and arguments about who better represents their shattered souls: Jimmy Eat World or Deathcab for Cutie, we return to the old style of Martin saying something, Faye twisting it against him, Faye punching him, and Pintsize coming back with a disturbing joke.
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The earliest definite one I remember was here (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1328).
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You know what? I think I can go earlier than that.
I think Dora thought any relationship with Marten was doomed to fail like, way back in strip 229. (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=229)
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Now THAT's some serious mining!
Good find, JW.
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What's sad is, that was about when Dora stopped being "just another cast member" and moved up to "primary cast member" status.
The whole "Hurr Dora Hurr" storyline was when she graduated to "main character" status.
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You know what? I think I can go earlier than that.
I think Dora thought any relationship with Marten was doomed to fail like, way back in strip 229. (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=229)
If nothing else, it shows that the relationship was going to need some work if it was to become permanent, and that work was just never put in.
Man, Dora's self-confidence was almost as bad as Marten's at times, if not worse.
...I'm going to read all goddamn 1800 strips again, aren't I?
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...I'm going to read all goddamn 1800 strips again, aren't I?
Just did that.
Should we start a club?
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Depends - who you gonna club?
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I'm really surprised by how many people were surprised by the breakup.
As far as I remember, the timeline goes thusly: Dora and Marten hook up amid angst and doubt, but that angst and doubt is soon somewhat dispelled by NRE and first-stage infatuation.
1. They have their small ridiculous fight that shows Dora's incipient controlling tendencies when she freaks out that Marten got a haircut without her express permission, and also her double-standard for her own behavior:
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=857
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=858
Note that she also refuses to critically consider either the rationality of her position or the existence of said double standard until strongly prompted by an outsider observer (Faye). Note that she then has a brief moment of realization where she worries about sabotaging her relationship with Marten, but this moment soon slips away and things go back to the status quo. But it's only the first offense and not a super major one at that, thus so far, so good, until...
2. They have another fight when Dora flips out on him for not seeing Faye's and Sven's hookup as some kind of plot to hurt the two of them, once again demonstrating irrationality and her extreme insecurities regarding Faye and how she places Marten's relationship to Faye at the center of her own relationship with him.
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1097
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1098
She then flips out on him some more for "taking Faye's side." In the aftermath, she is shown as unwilling to actually discuss the root issues of the fight or, once again, critically assess her motivations:
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1106
Overall, it's a fairly short and momentary blow-up, and quickly enough resolved, but it's beginning to be a pattern of absolutely unprovoked over-reactions from Dora...
3. Annnnnddd, it begins. They have yet another fight due to Dora's inability to control her irrational insecurity, where she sets up a ridiculous test that Marten is bound to fail:
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1325
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1326
They make up, but Marten's left feeling uneasy and possibly reevaluating Dora's suitabilty for him:
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1328
4. Dora gets her own hair cut and colored without informing Marten: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1671 Doesn't have much to do with other things, but he is obviously not a huge fan of it, and it certainly calls back to their first fight, and again, the double standards.
5. Comparing his relationship to Faye's blossoming new one with Angus, Marten doesn't seem very happy. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1739
(The fact that he felt the need to ask Dora in the first place shows he was looking for some kind of reassurance and did not get it.)
6. The underpants fight happens.
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1742
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1743
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1744
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1745
And then the current one does. I'm also pretty sure there was at least one more instance of Marten-lying-awake-in-bed-at-night that I missed.
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Good job, Jack.
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Yes, thank you! I was having trouble remembering the haircut incident, despite its being bandied about so much. Thanks for all the links - it really does put things into an interesiting perspective!
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Let the word go forth from this place and this time that JackFaerie is a Mistress of the Archives, and entitled to wear the special Imaginary Hat.
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Thankee, thankee. I'd be a true Mistress of the Archives if I could find the other instance of Marten lying awake in bed at night and sighing. I could swear there were three in total.
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Yes, good job, JackFaerie. When you put it that way...
Much respect for Jeph, to have either laid the guidelines out early on (a la JKRowling) or masterfully composed it as he went along, or some combination thereof.
The current apparently misguided Marten-Faye shipping is left over from the first 500 or so strips, where that sexual tension almost defined the main characters & thus the comic. That's not so easily disposed of, for those of us who've loved QC from the beginning. I suspect (ok, hope) that QC's closing arc, hopefully far down the road, might include the original "couple" getting together.
I don't expect any shark-jumping; I see QC as getting stronger as it goes, with Jeph's storytelling skillz, character depths, dramatic repertoire all improving as we've seen the art improve.
Someday we'll look back on these drama-threads and laugh. :lol:
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Problem is, most of these drama threads will die when the next OMG!!!! moment wanders around.
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You could also throw in these:
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1066
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1067
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JackFaerie's list is quite complete as fas as I can remember. I confess to having hoped that Dora and Marten would not break up all the way till Thursday's strip. Let's list a few factors that may have contributed to the expectation that Dora and Marten were for keeps. Mostly my personal reasons. You're more than welcome to comment/add or shoot them down. Perhaps not the most interesting exercise, but here comes anyway:
- Wishful thinking - a very powerful driver. I just hoped so hard that they could make it work :-(
- The frequency of their arguments/quarrels/fights did not seem that high. Overall it looked like they were doing just fine. However, to an extent the comic time dilation trapped me here. In RL it is close to 5 years since strip 564, but in QCtime the concensus seems to be that it's something like one year. Don't know if 6 incidents per year is too much, because...
- It is natural to expect a higher than usual 'drama to steady going ratio' in a work of fiction. So a bumpy ride is even more likely than in RL.
Also a lot of the Faye/Marten shipping that took place really got on my nerves. I tried to dismiss it, because it sounded like a bunch of NiceGuysTM yelling: Marten was so nice to Faye for a longest time. He has 'earned' a relationship (or failing that at least some passionate sex) with her. I should have known better and just stayed away from the forum until the smoke cleared, but flesh was weak and consequently I defaulted to denial mode. Not to mention that when I started reading QC from the beginning I was myself hoping that Faye and Marten would end up together :oops: So this is more like a cauldron calling kettle black.
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I guess my problem with the breakup was that I always bought Marten's rationalizations in all the above referenced strips. He was always a voice of reason in their relationship, but you can't really reason with fear and insecurity. You can reassure, and he did a lo- great deal of that as well, but since the issue of Faye never went away there was really no amount of reassurance that would work. It never seemed that way to me, but the apartment was clearly laced with tension. Even with the recent development of Fangus, Faye's still there in the middle of their lives, and it had to be tough on Dora's lizard-brain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triune_brain#The_reptilian_complex) (link added in case you thought it was an insult).
I'm really curious as to where this will be taking us. The Talk was a major change in the comic in that it opened up a window into the lives of the characters, but it was between two people, and things could then progress from there.
This is not such a shift. It shakes things up much more, more people are invilved, tectonic plates are realigning. It'll be interesting to see where Jeph takes us.
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You could also throw in these:
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1066
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1067
Yeah, I thought about that but didn't include it because it felt like pretty understandable insecurity (they hadn't been dating very long then, and Faye really WAS a factor) with just a smidge of the irrational thrown in. And it was resolved very sanely on Dora's part--no ugly scenes. I was thinking of including, in my first post, a disclaimer along the lines of "and this is not even counting all the times Dora had expressed insecurity over the relationship and concern over Faye in a calmer, more reasonable manner."
I still think there was one more solid moment of doubt from Marten, but also, yeah... this is something you really can't fight with reason. You also can't just "make" a person change, and even if they want to change on their own, it doesn't happen quickly or easily. Both Marten and Dora realized that this is a recurring issue in the relationship and really is just part of who Dora is, and also part of the situation right now. Again, even with therapy we can't be sure Dora would give up her misgivings because... well... they're not entirely misgivings. Plenty of people on the forum also think he just went for Dora cause Faye wasn't available and it was the path of least resistance, and that he would not have picked her had she not come onto him at an emotionally vulnerable time. Or that although he likes Dora fine, he just fell into a relationship with her rather than make any sort of active choice about wanting her specifically. But either way, Marten can't make Dora have therapy. And I'm not sure it would be good for Dora to do it for Marten and the relationship--she'd have to do it for herself in order for it to actually help.
And although I feel Dora acted rightly in recognizing a recurring problem and seeing the untenability of the situation for what it was, we also see in these older strips that she's always had problems in self-evaluating or applying any sort of critical thinking to her own issues, and goes on the defensive whenever she's asked to. She also isn't comfortable talking about the roots of her issues, even when she may realize she has a problem. So that's definitely something she needs to work on, regardless of Marten and the Faye situation.
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I'm surprised no-one has mentioned this one,
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=543
More than a little bit of a coincidence that Dora mentions a fire breathing hellbitch, considering thats how many readers view her now, her fans included.
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As I mentioned in the WCDT, http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=756 is in retrospect an obvious foreshadowing comic. Marten describes the breakup exactly (except for the bit with the Harley, which may still happen). He just doesn't realise he's talking about Dora...
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I don't think it's just the issue with Faye that's been contributing to the downfall of Marten and Dora, though that certainly was a huge issue. She's a jealous person dating a guy where his core group of friends are all female (with the exception of a few male friends on the edge of his inner circle), and in different ways, that's contributed to this too. Pinning it specifically to the Faye issue has covered most of their breakup, but not really all the issues that were going on there. I feel, in essence, Dora is using Faye as a blanket excuse. The comic (can't remember the specific one, sorry) where Marten and Hannelore are talking about music, she was jealous of that too, because his "musicianship" was a part of him she could never reach, she could never have that kind of conversation with him, she had "girlfriend conversations" with him. Though that would arguably be a more intimate type of discussion, and a very intimate part of him to claim as her own (the "girlfriend conversations") she still doesn't think it's good enough because she doesn't have all of him. That's why I think the biggest foreshadowing was the musician conversation, it showed her real... lack of contentment in what she had with Marten. No matter how much of him she had, unless she had all of him, she'd be wanting more and feeling unsatisfied.
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http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1395
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Yes! That one! I just thought it was kind of crappy the way Dora felt like she had a right to monopolize him. Seems kind of like a recipe for disaster. Thanks for finding the link! :-D
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What Sven said to Marten pretty much spelled things out.
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As I mentioned in the WCDT, http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=756 is in retrospect an obvious foreshadowing comic. Marten describes the breakup exactly (except for the bit with the Harley, which may still happen). He just doesn't realise he's talking about Dora...
Oh come, let's not get carried away now. Dora's not emotionally unavailable--that would be Faye for you. It's not like she had issues with commitment or felt uncomfortable allowing herself to love Marten or anything else that "emotionally unavailable" means. She was quite emotionally available to Marten--her issue was that she feared he wasn't quite as exclusively emotionally available to her as she'd have liked. And she certainly wasn't passive aggressive--again, that would be more Marten. All her aggression was quite on the surface--she flipped out in irrational anger binges, remember? So no, I don't think this is foreshadowing at all.
I don't think it's just the issue with Faye that's been contributing to the downfall of Marten and Dora, though that certainly was a huge issue. She's a jealous person dating a guy where his core group of friends are all female (with the exception of a few male friends on the edge of his inner circle), and in different ways, that's contributed to this too. Pinning it specifically to the Faye issue has covered most of their breakup, but not really all the issues that were going on there. I feel, in essence, Dora is using Faye as a blanket excuse. The comic (can't remember the specific one, sorry) where Marten and Hannelore are talking about music, she was jealous of that too, because his "musicianship" was a part of him she could never reach, she could never have that kind of conversation with him, she had "girlfriend conversations" with him. Though that would arguably be a more intimate type of discussion, and a very intimate part of him to claim as her own (the "girlfriend conversations") she still doesn't think it's good enough because she doesn't have all of him. That's why I think the biggest foreshadowing was the musician conversation, it showed her real... lack of contentment in what she had with Marten. No matter how much of him she had, unless she had all of him, she'd be wanting more and feeling unsatisfied.
But this could well have been because she didn't feel she really had him, because of the Faye thing. Ie, with a guy she felt more sure of, she could have been more relaxed in all aspects. Plus yeah, there's her history of cheating exes.
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What Sven said to Marten pretty much spelled things out.
Okay, let's look at that:
The "chill and understanding" thing is an act. She's a mess underneath it all. You know you're the first dude she's ever dated who wasn't a complete douchebag?
(Marten: "She's said...")
Oh, they were all HUGE a$$holes. Real alpha-goth types. Treated her like $#!+, cheated on her, the works. She's never been in a healthy relationship. Not that I know of, anyway.
(How come she never told me...?)
Doesn't like talking about it. Gotta keep up the act, remember?
Tie this in with Dora's "Too nice for my own good" comment way way WAY back in 229, and her comment in 562: "I'm just as angsty as I used to be. I just try to hide it more now."
Duh. Shoulda guessed she'd shoot this relationship in the foot.
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One of the really early foreshadowings that she might never be able to get rid of the fear http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=592
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My last comment before we go on to our abbreviated week:
Notice how a lot of the arguments between M&D got heated after Raven got "put on a bus" to college?
EDIT: Looked it up - the Cosette thing happened before Raven left, but Raven was pretty much out of the picture by that time (1511 is her "departure" strip).
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Excellent forshadowing in spotting 592. Very well done!
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not exactly foreshadowing of the break up, but just to counter
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1466 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1466)
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It's not so much that the breakup was unexpected, but that Marten would roll over again. Recently, he's demonstrated that he's willing to confront her directly. And then when things came to a head, he just (presumably, since we didn't see anything) silently accepted it and walked out.
I would have said Marten would have rolled over a few months ago when faced with a breakup from Dora without a problem...but after these recent developments? That's what's surprising.
Guess Marten hasn't grown at all throughout these years. Ah well.
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not exactly foreshadowing of the break up, but just to counter
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1466 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1466)
So is Marten still going out with the clockwork simulcra?
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not exactly foreshadowing of the break up, but just to counter
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1466 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1466)
So is Marten still going out with the clockwork simulcra?
No, that one is running CoD while the real Dora undergoes an emotional meltdown. Unsurpisingly, no one can tell the difference until the simulcra Dora stops... turns out that someone forgot to give the little hamster inside his bottle of water. I'm not saying who, just someone.
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It's not so much that the breakup was unexpected, but that Marten would roll over again. Recently, he's demonstrated that he's willing to confront her directly. And then when things came to a head, he just (presumably, since we didn't see anything) silently accepted it and walked out.
I would have said Marten would have rolled over a few months ago when faced with a breakup from Dora without a problem...but after these recent developments? That's what's surprising.
Guess Marten hasn't grown at all throughout these years. Ah well.
I'm not so sure he did just walk out after 1799. We don't see any more of that scene, but there's a lot in their lives we don't see. They may well have spoken some more, but really, after what Dora had just said to him, there wasn't any reassurance he'd be able to give, no rational arguments, no words of love that would have dissuaded her.
Don't know if he'd realize it so easily, though. It may have taken a repeat or two of her explanation, along with some very insistent "it's over, dammit"s to get her point across.
But this has nothing to do with foreshadowing! My daughter, who's followed the strip since I introduced her to it, said it was pretty obvious for a long time that they weren't going to be able to make it work. I guess I'm just a stereotypically oblivious male. Until you guys drug up these old scenes, I really thought they'd be able to work this out. Seeing them now, Dora's problems clearly run too deep.
Oh yeah, and I'm a hopeless romantic, too. That doesn't really help anything.
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Second Law of Sexual Dynamics at work, hey?
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Possibly.
I first felt that GOM is my kind of group. But when Jeph blessed the rains (probably even before that) I realized that my grumpiness is only skin deep. If GOM has a subdivision for romantic old fools, then may be.
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...and thus, GOM-ROF was formed from the void.
Backwards, it's formog, which when said wit ha soft g sounds a bit cheesey.
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I wouldn't say any of it, except maybe the Toto bit, was foreshadowing. Marten and Dora had a turbulent relationship all along; if they hadn't, Dora walking out wouldn't have been the shock it was.
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GOM-ROF. Grumpy skin and eber heart long before you were born, sonny?
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I wouldn't say any of it, except maybe the Toto bit, was foreshadowing. Marten and Dora had a turbulent relationship all along; if they hadn't, Dora walking out wouldn't have been the shock it was.
I'm like Carl-E, I was oblivious for the longest time to what in hindsight was a fairly obvious inevitable, but I do remember reading that Toto comic for the first time and thinking "Oh, that does not bode well." Not so much that they don't share a love of Toto - differing music tastes happen all the time - but that she flat-out says "Toto sucks." Foreshadowing future pain, certainly.
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Does this count?
http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1778
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Unfortunately, yes.
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I wouldn't say any of it, except maybe the Toto bit, was foreshadowing. Marten and Dora had a turbulent relationship all along; if they hadn't, Dora walking out wouldn't have been the shock it was.
Anyone that was actually shocked by the breakup is/was a complete moron.
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I wouldn't say any of it, except maybe the Toto bit, was foreshadowing. Marten and Dora had a turbulent relationship all along; if they hadn't, Dora walking out wouldn't have been the shock it was.
Anyone that was actually shocked by the breakup is/was a complete moron.
Despite all of this foreshadowing we're now identifying, I think we should remember that hindsight is 20/20.
Not seeing this breakup coming isn't moronic; it just involves not seeing subtle signs. Or being wilfully blind to them. At least, I know that's what I was doing.
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It's not so much that the breakup was unexpected, but that Marten would roll over again. Recently, he's demonstrated that he's willing to confront her directly. And then when things came to a head, he just (presumably, since we didn't see anything) silently accepted it and walked out.
I would have said Marten would have rolled over a few months ago when faced with a breakup from Dora without a problem...but after these recent developments? That's what's surprising.
Guess Marten hasn't grown at all throughout these years. Ah well.
How does that even make sense? Why would him trying to "stand up for himself" by refusing to break up be a good thing? Their relationship was far worse for him than it was for her. He should have broken up with her earlier in fact--but it seems he was totally unable to do it even when faced with absolute deal-breakers for any other person. It's not "rolling over" to accept that it's over when it wasn't good for you anyway. Complaining that Marten's "weak-willed" in that he just silently accepted the breakup is a bit like complaining that an abuse victim "just accepted it" when her abuser said "oh crap I realized I've been abusing you all this time and I don't want to be that person but I can't help myself, so I'm leaving you now." How would it have shown strength of character (or in fact, anything other than spinelessness and stupidity) for Marten to have been all "No Dora, I love youuu let's stay in this totally unworkable relationship that hasn't been satisfying me for months on the off chance that with enough therapy and over lots and lots of time, your problems will disappear and we'll be able to ignore our other incompatibilities"?
One of the really early foreshadowings that she might never be able to get rid of the fear http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=592
I don't think that was really foreshadowing. It was directly stated in a number of the early-relationship strips that Dora was insecure about this. The difference was, "at the start of the relationship," this is something you just hope to work on, and hope will eventually go away. If it persists even as the relationship continues, however...
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On the hindsight is 20/20 thing... 118 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=118)
I have started going through the archives again and, now that we have a strong sense of just how bad Dora's reservations about Marten/Faye, the beginning comics take on a whole new light. Dora is introduced in Comic 75 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=75) and less than 50 strips later, I am already sick of Faye telling Dora that she and Marten are not a thing. Granted, this was (in my mind) two years earlier and an entirely different QC atmosphere, but Dora has been pining for Marten since the day she met him and the possibility that he and Faye would hookup has been at the back of her mind...since the day she met Marten.
With Comic 1800 in mind as I peruse the earlier strips, I wonder why I was even remotely surprised by The Breakup or why I amwas still hoping that the pair may come to their senses.
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How does that even make sense? Why would him trying to "stand up for himself" by refusing to break up be a good thing? Their relationship was far worse for him than it was for her. He should have broken up with her earlier in fact--but it seems he was totally unable to do it even when faced with absolute deal-breakers for any other person. It's not "rolling over" to accept that it's over when it wasn't good for you anyway. Complaining that Marten's "weak-willed" in that he just silently accepted the breakup is a bit like complaining that an abuse victim "just accepted it" when her abuser said "oh crap I realized I've been abusing you all this time and I don't want to be that person but I can't help myself, so I'm leaving you now." How would it have shown strength of character (or in fact, anything other than spinelessness and stupidity) for Marten to have been all "No Dora, I love youuu let's stay in this totally unworkable relationship that hasn't been satisfying me for months on the off chance that with enough therapy and over lots and lots of time, your problems will disappear and we'll be able to ignore our other incompatibilities"?
You're blind if you can't see that Marten didn't want the relationship to end. Look at his face these last two comics. He's COMPLETELY unhappy right now. Why? Because he did love her. And he wanted to make it work. Dora decided she knew better than the two of them and made the decision for him. One he clearly did not approve of. He wanted to help her through it and she said no.
Your abuser example is the one that makes no sense. Marten isn't remotely relieved that she broke up with him. An abuse victim would be.
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So how's that supposed to look?
"It's over"
"No, it's not over until I say it's over."
Yeah, that's a healthy pattern.
Your abuser example is the one that makes no sense. Marten isn't remotely relieved that she broke up with him. An abuse victim would be.
Clearly you haven't had much experience with the victims of domestic abuse. They are often heartbroken by the failure of the relationship and have a lot of trouble getting to the point where they accept that being out is better for them.
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So how's that supposed to look?
"It's over"
"No, it's not over until I say it's over."
Yeah, that's a healthy pattern.
Bingo.
Noone has the right to force someone to remain in a relationship. Period. Full Stop.
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There's a difference between trying to help her through it (since Dora acknowledged that she didn't want the relationship to end either, but that she feels she would ruin it) and saying "No, I'm not letting you."
Huge difference. Nice job ignoring that.
Also
Clearly you haven't had much experience with the victims of domestic abuse. They are often heartbroken by the failure of the relationship and have a lot of trouble getting to the point where they accept that being out is better for them.
I actually have a lot of experience working directly with abuse victims during college. The reason they don't leave is because they fear they can't, not because they're happy with it. You're confusing it with the comparatively rare occurrence where the abuse victim identifies the abuse with love or happiness. That's not the norm, but it does happen.
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Oh, so not so much stalking her as becoming completely codependent.
"If I just stay a little longer, I know I can fix her. That's what someone needs in a partner, someone to fix them, right?"
I got ya.
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A relationship requires 2 people. Dora doesn't want to remain aboard the Dora-Marten ship, so THE SHIP WILL SINK BLARGH
For anyone to make any sort of prediction about the two of them getting back together, then Dora would have to have a change of heart, something that I doubt Marten would (or should) have any influence, at least not for a while.
I think Jeph generally has a LONG timeline for his story ideas, so if there's another relationship-y development, I think it'd be a while. I think there might be a slight bit more emo-y-ness for a little bit, but eventually everyone will return to equilibrium.
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Oh, so not so much stalking her as becoming completely codependent.
"If I just stay a little longer, I know I can fix her. That's what someone needs in a partner, someone to fix them, right?"
I got ya.
I'm assuming you're trolling since this post makes no sense. How about just...talking it over? Going to a therapist? It worked for Faye.
I'm not sure why you're focusing on extremes.
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I wouldn't say any of it, except maybe the Toto bit, was foreshadowing. Marten and Dora had a turbulent relationship all along; if they hadn't, Dora walking out wouldn't have been the shock it was.
Anyone that was actually shocked by the breakup is/was a complete moron.
Despite all of this foreshadowing we're now identifying, I think we should remember that hindsight is 20/20.
Not seeing this breakup coming isn't moronic; it just involves not seeing subtle signs. Or being wilfully blind to them. At least, I know that's what I was doing.
This comic is about as subtle as a monster truck running over 100 cars full of fireworks.
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Apropos of nothing, Odin, where did you get your av of the Predator fucking with the Alien? That is pretty rad.
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Commercial for a PS2 and Xbox Aliens vs Predator game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4t7S64c9Wk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBpKCQQ3YrA&feature=related
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I'm assuming you're trolling since this post makes no sense. How about just...talking it over? Going to a therapist? It worked for Faye.
I'm not sure why you're focusing on extremes.
Nah. I actually find something vaguely disturbing in the idea that the strong, manly thing to do would be to refuse to let the relationship end. There's such a thing as commitment, sure, but then there's also such a thing as realizing that you aren't growing in a relationship and that maybe you need to give it a rest.
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I wouldn't say any of it, except maybe the Toto bit, was foreshadowing. Marten and Dora had a turbulent relationship all along; if they hadn't, Dora walking out wouldn't have been the shock it was.
Anyone that was actually shocked by the breakup is/was a complete moron.
By the fact that them breaking up in general? Sure. Over this? Come on.
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Nah. I actually find something vaguely desterbing in the idea that the strong, manly thing to do would be to refuse to let the relationship end. There's such a thing as comitment, sure, but then there's also such a thing as realizing that you aren't growing in a relationship and that maybe you need to give it a rest.
It's less a matter of it being the 'strong or manly' thing to do than just acknowledging that there is real love and potential there and not abandoning it. If the roles were completely reversed, I would have been surprised that Dora didn't try to make it work a little harder. It's curious because the earlier conflicts they experienced were much more serious. Adding to that, Marten was more willing to help Faye work through it, yet this hurt him incalculably worse...and he didn't try harder to help Dora through it.
Mind you, I'm not saying they had to stay in the relationship, but I'm surprised that Marten finally learned about all these issues she has and instead of helping her with them, he just leaves her to suffer. That's what surprised me.
EDIT: Adding to that last line, I'd have no issue with this if Marten felt better about his decision to let it go...but it's pretty clear he has misgivings about it. He wants to help. So is it so bad that I'd expect him to try?
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I've been saying this in other threads, and I think he may well have, after the deer in the headlights of 1799. We don't know what was said by either after that, but we do know that in the end, Dora
convinced got him to go along with her and break it off.
It takes two to make a relationship. It only tales one to end it.
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Nah. I actually find something vaguely desterbing in the idea that the strong, manly thing to do would be to refuse to let the relationship end. There's such a thing as comitment, sure, but then there's also such a thing as realizing that you aren't growing in a relationship and that maybe you need to give it a rest.
Adding to that, Marten was more willing to help Faye work through it, yet this hurt him incalculably worse...and he didn't try harder to help Dora through it.
Mind you, I'm not saying they had to stay in the relationship, but I'm surprised that Marten finally learned about all these issues she has and instead of helping her with them, he just leaves her to suffer. That's what surprised me.
EDIT: Adding to that last line, I'd have no issue with this if Marten felt better about his decision to let it go...but it's pretty clear he has misgivings about it. He wants to help. So is it so bad that I'd expect him to try?
But Marten's way of helping Faye was by letting her off the hook in terms of her guilt that she couldn't return Marten's feelings. He told her, "You've got stuff to work through, I'm going to stop pursuing you and give you space while you do that." (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=509) Now he's accepted that he has to give Dora her space while she works through *her* stuff.
I don't think Marten is "leaving her to suffer", either. He accepted the breakup, yes. But he doesn't seem angry or spiteful about it - he even told Faye not to go start a fight with Dora over it. There's no reason to assume at this point that he's decided to completely abandon her.
Breakups are always sad, even when you know they are the right choice to make. Especially coming from a long-term relationship where you've gotten used to the person's presence and function in your life. Marten's level of sadness is about what I'd expect for the end of a year-long relationship, even if he knows it's the right choice in the long run.
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But Marten's way of helping Faye was by letting her off the hook in terms of her guilt that she couldn't return Marten's feelings. He told her, "You've got stuff to work through, I'm going to stop pursuing you and give you space while you do that." (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=509) Now he's accepted that he has to give Dora her space while she works through *her* stuff.
In that very comic you linked, he also said, "If you take steps to get yourself fixed up-I mean more than therapy, medication, whatever it takes, I'll do my best to treat you as a friend and not a girlfriend-in-waiting." That's not as much of a hands off approach as he's taking with Dora now. He's proposing to actively check up on Faye and agreed to respect her wishes on the condition that she work to get better.
Here he just said, "Okay, I'm out but I'm totally not okay with this. *sadface*". That's different.
Unless the next few comics elaborate on how Marten feels about it, so far, it seems to strongly suggest that he has no intention of helping her like he did Faye. And I wouldn't have expected that.
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I don't think Marten is "leaving her to suffer", either. He accepted the breakup, yes. But he doesn't seem angry or spiteful about it - he even told Faye not to go start a fight with Dora over it. There's no reason to assume at this point that he's decided to completely abandon her.
I dunno. "We're both sick of her crap" sounded pretty, ah, spiteful about the way everything went. He stopped Faye from killing Dora for the mutual benefit of himself and Faye - that is, literally, stopping Faye from running off and getting herself fired, which would make their housing situation even more difficult.
From how things have gone I don't think there is any chance of Marten / Dora rekindling. It's not just giving her time, it's facing rejection after putting up with pretty serious issues for something like a year.
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http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1572
Additional foreshadowing strip, and a really adorable relationship moment. Made me laugh and feel very sad at the same time, but no one can put up with their SO acting "stupid and insecure" forever.
Also, Marten is understandably hurt, bitter, and probably more than a little angry at the moment. I don't think this is any reason to believe he plans on abandoning Dora or their friendship entirely. It's also been only a day or two since the big underwear fight when Dora promised to get help. Maybe, as Carl has been saying, Marten and Dora continued talking after sad-face Marten. Maybe Marten reinforced his desire that she get real help. Maybe after he's had time to recover he'll ask that she get help and make the same promise that he made to Faye, that if she gets real help he'll be there for her but try not to treat her as if he's waiting to get back together with her. The possibilities are endless, but I doubt that Dora will in any way become a pariah (at least not for very long) or that Marten will abandon their friendship or make their other friends choose. They wouldn't be the first couple to remain friends after a break up.
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Marten is not a freaking saint. He got dumped by the chick he really did love and people just expect him to hang around and help out with her issues? Maybe Marten needs some time to work through his stuff too. Did people ever think of that? Maybe he needs to sit down and wonder why he keeps attracting chicks that have "issues". (I do love both Faye and Dora so don't think I am bashing them)
You can't just expect him to go "OK you dumped me, now let's work on those issues!"
I know people will bring up "But he did that for Faye!!!" and yes I realise he did that for Faye but maybe now Marten is just thinking "Ya know what screw this, I am going to work on myself and worry about myself for once" and I think that is extremely OK and long over due for him to do this, I think Marten needs to be a little bit selfish, everyone needs to be selfish at some point in their lives and work on themselves, and I think this is the time for Marten to do this.
Dora has Sven, and hopefully the others won't take sides, I have a feeling after yesterday's comic Faye will be in Marty's corner, but I am hoping the others will help both of them and comfort both of them.
They both have issues, and them helping each other out after they have just broken up just seems like a bad road to go down IMHO.
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snip
Except it's pretty clear he hates the situation he's in. Like I said, I wouldn't have a problem with this if he took it a little better, but he clearly wanted to do more about it. He tried to argue his position, but he got cut off. Selfish would have been fighting harder for what he believed was something they could have worked on. You think he'd look as bad as he does now if even some aspect of him wanted this break up?
Your entire argument rests on an unlikely presumption.
Like I said, until we find out more, the only thing we've been presented with is his extreme sadness at this turn about and his reluctant acceptance of Dora's request.
But...different interpretations and all that... >_>
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snip
Except it's pretty clear he hates the situation he's in. Like I said, I wouldn't have a problem with this if he took it a little better, but he clearly wanted to do more about it. He tried to argue his position, but he got cut off. Selfish would have been fighting harder for what he believed was something they could have worked on. You think he'd look as bad as he does now if even some aspect of him wanted this break up?
Your entire argument rests on an unlikely presumption and is unrealistic.
Like I said, until we find out more, the only thing we've been presented with his extreme sadness at this turn about and his reluctant acceptance of Dora's request.
But...different interpretations and all that... >_>
Where in my post did I say he was happy about the break up? Of course he is upset, I acknowledge he was and still is in love with her. I wanted them stay together and work through it. I am just saying that you can't expect the guy to be OK with it and just magically help her out with her issues. He got dumped, of course he is bitter and upset (most people usually are a little upset when they are dumped) and no-one knows what was said off screen, he could have fought for the relationship, we don't know this.
You can't expect someone who has just been dumped to just hang around and help out with their issues. If Dora didn't want to be in the relationship then she didn't want to be in the relationship, I don't think anything he said (or did say) could change this. If someone wants out, they want out.
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but maybe now Marten is just thinking "Ya know what screw this, I am going to work on myself and worry about myself for once"
...suggests that he can satisfactorily take advantage of the situation.
And to be frank, Marten was crazy about Faye at first and he took that rejection remarkably well. You say he's not a saint, but he's been portrayed as such throughout most if not all of this comic. He is 'The Good Guy'.
Also:
You can't expect someone who has just been dumped to just hang around and help out with their issues. If Dora didn't want to be in the relationship then she didn't want to be in the relationship, I don't think anything he said (or did say) could change this. If someone wants out, they want out.
She's afraid her issues will consume her and that they'll never get better so she stopped trying. There's a difference. If it were up to her, she would stay in the relationship, but she feels her issues are insurmountable. So were Faye's, in her own eyes, but she took Marten's advice and worked through them.
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http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1572
Also known as aural sex.
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but maybe now Marten is just thinking "Ya know what screw this, I am going to work on myself and worry about myself for once"
...suggests that he can satisfactorily take advantage of the situation.
And to be frank, Marten was crazy about Faye at first and he took that rejection remarkably well. You say he's not a saint, but he's been portrayed as such throughout most if not all of this comic. He is 'The Good Guy'.
By that I mean so he can take some sort of positive from this situation, some sort of silver lining. I don't see what's wrong with wanting a silver lining in a shitastic time like this. I guess I just worded it wrong. Besides a lot of people after breaking up work on themselves, why is it so wrong for me to hope that Marten will work on his issues? We have seen Faye and Hanners work on theirs, so yes I would love to see Marten take advantage of this and work on himself.
So because he has been "The good guy" all along this means he has to continue being "The good guy". Yes he took the rejection from Faye remarkably well, but maybe this time he is just sick of it, like it has been said in other threads this may have been the straw that broke the camel's back and he doesn't want to be the "The good guy" anymore.
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Hm...we definitely have different interpretations of his reaction here. I feel that he is continuing to be "The Good Guy" by not helping her. Why? Because he's allowing her to do what she pleases at the expense of his happiness. Remember, he's unhappy and he thinks her arguments for ending it are ridiculous. But he didn't voice those concerns. He accepted it.
If he were finally able to drop that characteristic and fight for his own interest, selfishly, he would have stayed and and tried to help. Why? Because he wants to stay with her. Helping her through those issues would have granted him that.
Again, this is just from what we've seen. It would definitely help if he spoke more about it in the next few strips.
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but maybe now Marten is just thinking "Ya know what screw this, I am going to work on myself and worry about myself for once"
...suggests that he can satisfactorily take advantage of the situation.
And to be frank, Marten was crazy about Faye at first and he took that rejection remarkably well. You say he's not a saint, but he's been portrayed as such throughout most if not all of this comic. He is 'The Good Guy'.
Also:
You can't expect someone who has just been dumped to just hang around and help out with their issues. If Dora didn't want to be in the relationship then she didn't want to be in the relationship, I don't think anything he said (or did say) could change this. If someone wants out, they want out.
She's afraid her issues will consume her and that they'll never get better so she stopped trying. There's a difference. If it were up to her, she would stay in the relationship, but she feels her issues are insurmountable. So were Faye's, in her own eyes, but she took Marten's advice and worked through them.
I don't see how saying "screw this" translates to being alright with the break up. If I can't finish my homework and have to say "screw this", I'm not happy that I am going to get a zero. But I will, as you put it, reluctantly accept the zero and try to move on.
Also, Dora was in a relationship with Marten, Faye wasn't. It's like staying on a sinking ship and trying to bail it out. Sure, if you bail out enough you might patch the hole, but this ship was taking on a lot of water.
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It's the end of the statement, not the beginning. The 'for once' suggests that this opportunity is something he was looking forward to.
Also not sure about the Dora/Faye comparison at the end of your post there. They both thought similarly of their issues. Faye to the point where she wanted no men in her life and refused a relationship with Marten and Dora where she feels she cannot be in a relationship and refused a continued relationship with Marten. The difference however is that Marten had more of a vested interest in assisting Dora since he had experienced a relationship with her and wanted to continue it (as evidenced by his bitterness, sadness and frustration at Dora's rationale for the break up).
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but maybe now Marten is just thinking "Ya know what screw this, I am going to work on myself and worry about myself for once"
...suggests that he can satisfactorily take advantage of the situation.
And to be frank, Marten was crazy about Faye at first and he took that rejection remarkably well. You say he's not a saint, but he's been portrayed as such throughout most if not all of this comic. He is 'The Good Guy'.
And you know what? Even good guys have their limits. Additionally, the situations with Faye and Dora are very different.
1.) Faye moving in to The Talk was three, maybe five months at most. Dora and Marten have been going out for at least a year.
2.) Faye was a friend/roommate/hopeful girlfriend that transitioned into a friend/roommate. Dora was a long-term girlfriend who looks to transition into an at-best friend/awkward-to-be-around ex.
3.) Faye's rejection came in a calm collected manner with a valid explanation of deeper issues after months of mixed signals. Dora's rejection comes in the sound and fury of a fight with no explanation of deeper issues after a year of what seemed to be a mostly good relationship.
4,) Faye said, "I want to fix my issues". Dora, from what we've seen pending further recounting of any post-1799 conversation, said, "I can't fix my issues. I give up."
These are markedly different scenarios here.
True, Marten may not be acting exactly in character here. But getting dumped hard is the kind of stressing situation that makes people act not in character. That said, he's having a very human reaction. Anger's been building up for months even though he told himself he could fix it. That's just the noble creature that he is. But he's finally burst. He's bitter. He resents having to put up with Dora's crazy when she doesn't seem to be doing a thing to fix it. Maybe for once he's being actually selfish and saying that he doesn't need her insecurities if she's not going to work through them with him.
Good guys like to fight the good fight. But sometimes even they realize that something isn't worth fighting for. They won't like it. They'll still want to fight for happiness and good. But some battles are just un-winnable.
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It's the end of the statement, not the beginning. The 'for once' suggests that this opportunity is something he was looking forward to.
I was not saying that this was an opportunity he was looking forward to, I didn't mean he was just sitting there thinking "Oh god when is this relationship going to end so I can focus on myself" or that he held resentment towards Faye and Dora and their issues. I just mean he could see this freaking shitty situation as an opportunity for him to worry about himself, because he is hurting too. I understand Dora is hurting but she just hurt Marten and he needs to work through that hurt before he can worry about anyone else.
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I'm aware. You clarified your point earlier. I was responding to the person directly above my post...
And Torlek, I would argue that your first 3 points provide more of a reason for Marten to try harder. As for your last paragraph, I explained that I actually see his current action in character. I was hoping that this situation would bring about an out-of-character reaction. I actually don't think he's being selfish at all here (again, opting to allow Dora her wishes despite disagreeing with them)...but I was hoping for a selfish response. I thought this situation would have been enough to bring one about.
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I think I mentioned this on another thread (it's getting hard to keep track), and if it was this one, please forgive an old man.
Marten's not going to be able to help Dora through this. Faye probably isn't goin to be able to, either. They are the issue. No amount of reassurance (as we've seen in here) will make that go away. Dora needs to sort this out on her own (well, with help, but it can't be from Marten or Faye), and she may never be able to work it out enough that she'll be able to go back to him.
I started off being blindsided, actually panicking as i realized wha was happening. Then I thought it could be saved. I'm pretty sure now that it's dead, Jim. The more I think about it, the more I realize that the fundamental problem is in the very foundation of the relationship. You can't plaster over that and expect it to stand.
^T_T^
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Then again, today's strip is pretty promising. At least with regard to her acknowledging the problem.
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Now that I think about it... the purple hair.
It was the perfect foreshadowing. The most blatant one. But we all missed it. Think about it.
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Now that I think about it... the purple hair.
It was the perfect foreshadowing. The most blatant one. But we all missed it. Think about it.
Yes, because purple is evil.... Its all so obvious now!
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You're blind if you can't see that Marten didn't want the relationship to end. Look at his face these last two comics. He's COMPLETELY unhappy right now. Why? Because he did love her. And he wanted to make it work. Dora decided she knew better than the two of them and made the decision for him. One he clearly did not approve of. He wanted to help her through it and she said no.
Your abuser example is the one that makes no sense. Marten isn't remotely relieved that she broke up with him. An abuse victim would be.
I agree with everything except the last bit. I was very close friends my ex years after we were together, and she was in a severely emotionally abusive relationship. When it ended, he initiated the break-up and she was devastated. She didn't recover for a year and a half, and from what I understand her reaction's not all that uncommon among victims of emotional abuse.
That being said, I'm with you in that I hardly see Marten as being a victim of abuse. Was Dora sometimes careless about his feelings? Yes. Could she turn into a raving bitch when that happened? God, yes. But the vast majority of the relationship? Whatever insecurities she held, she still made it pretty clear she loved him in a fairly affectionate way, generally meeting him as an equal. Dora's character is flawed, but so are people. That doesn't make her occasional trips down Bitch Lane the equivalent of an abusive relationship At. All.
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Huh.
That would make sense; there's emotional abuse (as in "I HATE YOU") and there's emotional abuse (as in "I don't care about you").
Two parents who were emotionally absent, whether due to drugs or location, or whatever.
Ooh, this could get deep.
EDIT: Oops, I was talking about Dora, not Marten.
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Now that I think about it... the purple hair.
It was the perfect foreshadowing. The most blatant one. But we all missed it. Think about it.
Yes, because purple is evil.... Its all so obvious now!
It ruins everything forever.
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Anyone that was actually shocked by the breakup is/was a complete moron.
Getting in on this a bit late, but this is a bit like saying that anyone who didn't see North Korea's attack coming Tuesday morning (Nov 23, 2010) is/was a complete moron. Don't forget that timing is also a big part of being shocked and surprised. While we've known for almost the entire relationship that Dora has had "issues", I think what really shocked and surprised most of us was the timing. Don't forget that this whole thing started out with shared jokes about female anatomy and masturbation (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1794). And then during the course of maybe half a day (and 2-3 strips) we go to a (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1796) fight (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1797) and breakup (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1799). I honestly think most of the shock is simply how quickly it turned. If there'd been some kind of build-up, some sort of underlying hostility or something between them that led up to this, I think there would have been much less shock. And probably a lot fewer posts in the WCDT.
So, to sum up, was there long-term foreshadowing of the breakup? Certainly, this thread is proof of that. Was there any hint that things were going to bust open and fall apart in (essentially) the blink of an eye? Not at all. I wonder how much of that Marten is suffering, actually. I wonder if part of the reason he's so bitter is that he was so totally blind-sided by this.
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Anyone that was actually shocked by the breakup is/was a complete moron.
Getting in on this a bit late, but this is a bit like saying that anyone who didn't see North Korea's attack coming Tuesday morning (Nov 23, 2010) is/was a complete moron.
Making that sort of apples and oranges comparison also makes you a complete moron. We're talking about a work of fiction that is as subtle as a monster truck rally when it comes to relationship dynamics, not acts of war between countries that have been hostile to each other for over four decades (though now that I put it that way, yes, you would still be a moron if you were surprised by the attack yesterday morning).
The operative word there is "over", you cannot salvage your stupidity by being pedantic, people.
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...six decades?
It's been four decades since they made the movie about that war that inspired the TV show that is all most people know about that war.
Yes, it has been that long
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The TV show lasted about five times longer than the actual
war police action.
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The sword of time will pierce our skins/ It doesn't hurt when it begins/ But as it works its way on in/ The pain grows stronger...watch it grin
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ISWYDT :-D
Of course, "Suicide Is Painless" was going to be the motto of my Fantasy Football team this year, as half my starting lineup got hurt in the second week...
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ISWYDT :-D
Of course, "Suicide Is Painless" was going to be the motto of my Fantasy Football team this year, as half my starting lineup got hurt in the second week...
Aaaaaand now I'm singing that all day today. This should prove interesting, since I know at least one person is feeling the holiday blues. :mrgreen:
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ISWYDT :-D
Of course, "Suicide Is Painless" was going to be the motto of my Fantasy Football team this year, as half my starting lineup got hurt in the second week...
Aaaaaand now I'm singing that all day today. This should prove interesting, since I know at least one person is feeling the holiday blues. :mrgreen:
Well, it does bring so many changes.
But, you know, I can take or leave it if I please.
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And you can do the same thing if you please.
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Anyone that was actually shocked by the breakup is/was a complete moron.
Getting in on this a bit late, but this is a bit like saying that anyone who didn't see North Korea's attack coming Tuesday morning (Nov 23, 2010) is/was a complete moron. Don't forget that timing is also a big part of being shocked and surprised.
Making that sort of apples and oranges comparison also makes you a complete moron. We're talking about a work of fiction that is as subtle as a monster truck rally when it comes to relationship dynamics, not acts of war between countries that have been hostile to each other for over four decades (though now that I put it that way, yes, you would still be a moron if you were surprised by the attack yesterday morning).
The operative word there is "over", you cannot salvage your stupidity by being pedantic, people.
And my operative phrase, which you conveniently cut, was timing (re-added and bolded above). And was I surprised by the attack? Yes, I was. I was surprised that the North would do something so obviously stupid as firing into the middle of a war game that would guarantee immediate and heavy reprisal. Again, it's not the fact of the act, it's what's surrounding it. Context is important.
And, if you'd like something more apples to apples, then, who would have guessed that Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman were going to divorce when they did?
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Odin knew.
Because we're all morons.
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Because we're complete morons.
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Because we're complete morons.
Not all of us, some of us are only partially complete.
It's like Edward Scissorhands, except with dickrbooms instead of scissors.
Or something.
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What an image!
Of course, it's been done - google "Edward Penishands" for a few laughs...
NSFW, in case you couldn't tell.
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OK, back on topic; benenator (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php?action=profile;u=64468) found this one (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=293), going back to before the beginning. It was posted in the WCDT (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,25431.msg983699.html#msg983699), but I think it belongs here, as well.
With all the telegraphing Jeph did (hell, he was practically standing on a hill with semaphore flags spelling it all out), I'm starting to feel amazed that so many of us were thinking it could work out. Of course, hindsight is what it is, and this is a pre-elationship strip, which is mainly about anxieties over starting something, not over the relationship itself. but all the other times when they were together (including the ones not seen) make one thing painfully clear;
No matter how happy they made each other, no matter how much they (or any of their friends, or any of us) wanted it to work, there was a serious problem with the foundation of their relationship, and it was in Dora's head.
Now, bear with me for a moment, here. I'm going to extend the metaphor a lot further than it needs to go.
When a house has a serious problem with its foundation, there are only a couple of different options; you can try and fix the foundation in place, but that rarely works, unless the problem is a minor one. You can walk away, tear the place down, and start from scratch. That means a whole different house, you haven't salvaged anything.
The third option, one that does not occur to a lot of people because it's very hard to do, is to raise the house a couple of feet, and completely rebuild the foundation. It's hard, expensive, time-consuming, and the process of jacking up the house can lead to further damage if not done carefully. It's usually only done with historic properties, or homes that, for one reason or another, are considered irreplaceable by the owners.
But you can't live in a house undergoing repairs like this. Before it happens, the residents have to move out, the house will appear abandoned, and the neighbors will wonder what will happen next; will it be torn down, or rebuilt?
Even with the new foundation, when the house is lowered back onto it, there will still be a lot of repairs that need to be done before anyone is able to move back in.
This, of course, is the option I'm pulling for in Marten and Dora's case. I hate to see a beautiful and interesting house torn down. The one I live in is one I saved from the wrecking ball myself.
I just don't know that the current owners are willing to put the time, effort, and other costs into it. Ultimately, that's the deciding factor!
Why yes, both my father and grandfather were contractors. Why do you ask?
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Heavy text. The more I think about it the more I feel like grabbing my emergency reservoir of smoky/peaty flavored consolation.
A big part of the problem is, of course, one of recognition. Is *this* a problem in the foundations, or is it just one of the idiosyncracies of the old (or not so old) house that rather adds to its charm, and makes living in there more interesting?
Damn it. I don't understand relationships worth shit (geekiness bleeding to asperger creepy doesn't help). Nineteen years of married life notwithstanding. Undoubtedly you have all heard it: "19 years (or anything in that ballpark) is kinda awkward. It's too early to start bragging, but it's also sorta too late for having second thoughts."
Where's that scotch?
If you don't have any, have a :psyduck: G'night!
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Nineteen years of married life [...] it's also sorta too late for having second thoughts.
My first marriage broke up at 22 years; I guess that when the kids leave home is not so uncommon.
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I have found the ULTIMATE Foreshadow of the Breakup:
"You'd have to be some kind of idiot..." (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1637)
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More Dora insecurity. (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1225)
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Been reading the strip for 4 years or so. Just reread the entire archives and I have to agree, it's pretty obvious that Dora is never going to be happy in this relationship when you read it from the beginning. I think most things have been pointed out already but this strip stuck out to me in context of Dora freaking out over Marten's haircut.
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1302 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1302)
The fact that she doesn't even recognize her hypocrisy when it's being pointed out to her speaks volumes, and it's something Marten spoke about with her, too ("you can talk about people you are attracted to all you want but you freak out when i look at someone else"). Dora is the only character who hasn't started to overcome her problems, it seems. Every other character has shown growth in overcoming their issues, and Dora seems to be the only one that takes her problems for granted. That's why the relationship couldn't work. Thank God for Faye pushing her into therapy, so her character can move forward. I guess the biggest problem with Dora was that first of all, she always had and issue with jealousy of Marten, secondly, that she never recognized when she was pushing him, and thirdly, that she seemed to skim over the fact that her issue was with jealousy and blamed her problems on sibling rivalry with Sven, which seems totally insane except for when she freaked out about Faye hooking up with him, which is one of MANY freakouts.
Anyway, just wanted to add that strip to the pile.
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Been reading the strip for 4 years or so. Just reread the entire archives and I have to agree, it's pretty obvious that Dora is never going to be happy in this relationship when you read it from the beginning. I think most things have been pointed out already but this strip stuck out to me in context of Dora freaking out over Marten's haircut.
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1302 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1302)
The fact that she doesn't even recognize her hypocrisy when it's being pointed out to her speaks volumes, and it's something Marten spoke about with her, too ("you can talk about people you are attracted to all you want but you freak out when i look at someone else"). Dora is the only character who hasn't started to overcome her problems, it seems. Every other character has shown growth in overcoming their issues, and Dora seems to be the only one that takes her problems for granted. That's why the relationship couldn't work. Thank God for Faye pushing her into therapy, so her character can move forward. I guess the biggest problem with Dora was that first of all, she always had and issue with jealousy of Marten, secondly, that she never recognized when she was pushing him, and thirdly, that she seemed to skim over the fact that her issue was with jealousy and blamed her problems on sibling rivalry with Sven, which seems totally insane except for when she freaked out about Faye hooking up with him, which is one of MANY freakouts.
Anyway, just wanted to add that strip to the pile.
But what about thatstrip where Dora says Marten can lust after other girls as long as he says Dora is the prettiest.
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I mean, that goes back and forth. She also freaked out about the girl asking him out even though he immediately turned her down and told her he had a girlfriend. It's like my two friends who recently decided that they could totally do an open relationship if they were attracted to other people even though the boy is totally jealous of her even hanging out with other guys. Sure she can be ok with it, but there's something in her that just can't handle it (hence the freakouts). Dora jokes about Marten and other girls all the time, but if MARTEN says something about another girl, it's a totally different thing.
Anyway, since privacy was also a big thing for Marten in the breakup fight, I thought this one might be relevant, too.
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1669 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1669)
Looking back, Dora and Marten weren't living for very long, were they? I always get confused about the amount of time that has passed between events, but it's been like 150 strips since she moved in, which in QC time is like a month. Maybe the move also contributed to the issues in the relationship. A lot of the major issues came up since that point.
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But what about that strip where Dora says Marten can lust after other girls as long as he says Dora is the prettiest.
That's Dora trying to bury her issues.
Besides, it's not simple jealousy - she didn't say it, but he could look at other girls so long as they were not Faye. That's where the issue lay.
Dora's interesting because, as parvles mentioned, she has issues that she's unable to get past, but unlike other characters (Marigold, for instance) she's not self-unaware (un-self-aware?), she seems to know she has problems. Only she doesn't recognize them when they kick in. I have to say here that that's the way most of us work who have issues. You may recognize them, but if you could tell when they were kicking in, then you could get past them, and they wouldn't be issues anymore. It often takes another person to point these reactions out to us so we can make progress, and no one seriously called Dora on these until recently.
The fact that in many of these strips her confessions of her issues were used as punchlines didn't help anyone (in the strip or on the forum) take her seriously, until things came to a head. Even then, like a lot of us with issues, just knowing they're there, and even recognizing when we start falling into the old patterns 9as she finally has) won't get us out of them. Strategies are needed. They can come from within, or from others, and that's the main reason therapy works for so many.
Lets hope it helps her.
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http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1400
More fodder for the Tai moves in on Dora people
Also, :psyduck: ... just because