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Comic Discussion => QUESTIONABLE CONTENT => Topic started by: Jeva on 25 Apr 2013, 04:08

Title: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Jeva on 25 Apr 2013, 04:08
Or rather, making it more politically correct. So I was doing another archive trawl, as many of us do from time to time, and noticed that comic 10 http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=10 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=10) had been changed, replacing the word rape with hump. I can see why this might be done, rape is after all a very risky topic to make jokes about, but changing it years after it was posted? I mean, the original went up in 2003 and (from looking at the snapshots on the waybackmachine) the change only happened at the end of 2012/beginning of 2013.
Not really sure where I was going with this, just wondering why bother changing it after all this time, and whether or not anyone else had noticed?
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Asterus on 25 Apr 2013, 04:09
I think this was discussed at some point, maybe in an unrelated topic. Can't be bothered to find it now, I have an exam in 50 mins.

Never mind, found it. (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,28780.msg1139774.html#msg1139774)
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Jeva on 25 Apr 2013, 04:11
I did a quick search on here to see if it had been previously discussed and came up with nothing, but if this is old news then so be it. Nevermind.
EDIT: Thanks, I wouldn't have thought to check the WCDTs.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: pwhodges on 25 Apr 2013, 04:25
Compared with some forums, this one deliberately lets its threads in some areas get quite unstructured; this way it's more like friendly conversations, but it does mean that often stuff is not where you'd expect.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Asterus on 25 Apr 2013, 04:50
Well, I only remember it because we went from talking about whether Steve had his junk out to whether old Faye really would have been offended at a casual rape joke.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: bhtooefr on 25 Apr 2013, 06:29
Might not be a bad idea to split that discussion out into its own thread, and then merge this one into that thread, just so that it's a convenient thread for those that find that comic, and want to search for a thread about it...
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Valdís on 25 Apr 2013, 06:36
Censorship is only when inflicted upon you, which this wasn't. This was just Jeph exercising good judgment for something inappropriate he'd thrown in there a decade ago. If he's not comfortable with something being in his comic then that's entirely his decision.

Also my feelings are unchanged:

The old version (http://web.archive.org/web/20041210100431im_/http://www.questionablecontent.net/comics/10.png) is really uncomfortable. There's a vast difference between a statement that shy, submissive people want to be raped and that they'd fantasize about being with a dominant partner. Those two are not close experiences at all.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: tassaron on 25 Apr 2013, 07:04
I think both versions are about equally offensive, really. I'd rather he just delete that comic entirely.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Sidhekin on 25 Apr 2013, 07:09
The concept of self-censorship will not be censored, *censored*!
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: bhtooefr on 25 Apr 2013, 07:24
I think both versions are about equally offensive, really. I'd rather he just delete that comic entirely.
Ehhhhh no.

See, rape means that there was no consent. So, the original version implied that every shy, submissive boy on the planet wants to have NON-CONSENSUAL intercourse. Which is horrendously offensive, as well as kinda a logic failure.

Humping allows for consent. The edited version implies that every shy, submissive boy on the planet wants to have an aggressive partner who takes the initiative and goes right to sex. Wrong, but at least it isn't excluding consent. Granted, if he isn't given the opportunity to consent, it's still rape, but rape is no longer a mandatory part of this.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 25 Apr 2013, 10:27
The timing is even harder to explain given that Jeph has said he doesn't do archive trawls.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: marsman57 on 25 Apr 2013, 12:27
The timing is even harder to explain given that Jeph has said he doesn't do archive trawls.

Maybe that implies that someone DID complain to him.

Anyway, I think those who are offended have forgotten 2003 and are not seeing the comments in the cultural language of the day. My girlfriend back then, and all her friends, always talked about "raping" their crushes from movie stars to anime characters. The word was just at the time used by a subculture of females to casually to describe such things.

The idea behind the comic was never to suggest that Sara legitimately wanted to force Marten into a situation he did not want, but instead indicated her desire to eschew normal romantic courtship and instead make a bold move to indicate her crush.

At least imho.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: bhtooefr on 25 Apr 2013, 12:32
The timing is roughly right when The Oatmeal made a joke about "raping the F5 key" in a comic, and half of Twitter was flaming him to death.

My guess is, someone did see it and e-mail or tweet at Jeph.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Near Lurker on 25 Apr 2013, 13:00
I think it's nice he changed it - the joke raised my eyebrow a bit back when I first read it (those 90-some strips seemed so many then...), and I wasn't nearly as sensitive about such things then... but what's with the artifacts?
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: pwhodges on 25 Apr 2013, 13:20
I imagine he just did it in a hurry to meet the need, and wasn't worried about quality in such an old strip.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: ChaoSera on 25 Apr 2013, 13:24
Also, as someone who didn't know the old version, I can say that the editing is only noticeable if you actually looking for it. If you're just reading the comic you won't see it, at least I didn't.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Bluesummers on 25 Apr 2013, 20:09
I imagine he just did it in a hurry to meet the need, and wasn't worried about quality in such an old strip.
I agree.

Plus, as much as well all want to take a bit of ownership in QC, it is Jeph's brainchild, and he can do as he sees fit.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 25 Apr 2013, 21:41
Hence my hope that he made the change because he saw fit to do so, and not because he was afraid of criticism.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: pwhodges on 25 Apr 2013, 23:42
Being afraid of criticism, and pre-empting criticism when circumstances change, are rather different things though.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 26 Apr 2013, 00:02
I'm only one data point, but more than one man in my close family is a rape survivor, and I was still fine with the original strip, taking it as clearly hyperbole.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Welu on 26 Apr 2013, 05:22
I wondered if he might have found the joke again when putting together the books?
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: bhtooefr on 26 Apr 2013, 05:29
Although pwhodges said that the joke made it into the books...
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Valdís on 26 Apr 2013, 05:45
I'm only one data point, but more than one man in my close family is a rape survivor, and I was still fine with the original strip, taking it as clearly hyperbole.

..I don't even know what this post is, IICIH, nor why you'd expect someone else's experience to make your own an indicator. Did they react just fine to it?

Not that their reaction would be universal either way. I find the dismissive attitude associated with the way it used to read highly problematic.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 26 Apr 2013, 06:41
Saying I'm "only one data point" means that I don't expect my opinion of the comic to be shared by others.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Valdís on 26 Apr 2013, 06:54
Then why even bring them up in that manner if not to lend gravitas to your own feelings? Am I missing something? It just seems like "That wasn't disturbing. I should know, I know an X"? :meh:
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: pwhodges on 26 Apr 2013, 06:58
Because in the absence of a formal survey and real statistics, anecdotal evidence is all we have - so an anecdote he provided.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 26 Apr 2013, 07:15
make your own an indicator.

Why would you accuse me of saying my attitude was an "indicator" when I had said the exact opposite in the post immediately before yours?
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Valdís on 26 Apr 2013, 07:23
Sorry, misunderstood I guess.

I think the way I read it was as an indicator for them or something. I really don't like when family think they can just speak on behalf of a person.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 26 Apr 2013, 09:15
Ahh. Understood.

The relevance is that I have to see the results (continuing anxiety attacks for one of them, alcoholism for the other) and am sad and angry myself at injury to my family.

If anything, that makes me more motivated to distinguish between Faye and Sara's chatter about imaginary zero-inhibitions sex on the one hand and actual sexual violence on the other hand. Sara was lustful, not cruel.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: mewmew34 on 26 Apr 2013, 14:29
I personally don't understand why it was changed or why people let jokes like that get to them.  Rape is a horrible thing, no doubt.  But so is murder and people make jokes about murder and death all the time.  They may be tasteless, but they're still just jokes and do not condone the action they make fun of.  If somebody decides to go out and rape somebody because a girl in an internet comic strip made a casual mention of it, there is something seriously wrong with the person, not the creator of the comic strip, for thinking a joke makes the action OK.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 26 Apr 2013, 14:52
I'd been thinking about the analogy with murder jokes, of which QC has had many. The emotional impact is different because murder isn't being trivialized or endorsed by large sections of society. You can report a murder without having your entire town turn against you. Murders routinely get prosecuted. Guess how much good my relatives got out of the legal system.

There are jokes that trivialize sexual violence, they poison the well of society, and I don't think this strip was one of them.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Near Lurker on 26 Apr 2013, 15:11
It's estimated one in fifteen American men 18-24 has committed rape, so at any given time, there's far, far more likely to be a rapist in your audience than a murderer.

This is important because of what each tells themself: in one case, "it wasn't really rape," in the other, "s/he needed killing."  Being corruptions of the two most common legitimate (affirmative) defenses - consent and justification, respectively - these are essentially the same defense.  Both of them are reinforced by trivializing the matter in the form of jokes - nonconsenting victims who aren't really violated because they're only figures of fun, and unjustified homicides that aren't murder because of a patently absurd justification.  In both cases, most of the audience recognize the absurdity of seeking to so minimize a real crime, but the way the human mind works, those who are already so inclined might seek to minimize the guilt of their inclination (or even the actual fact), and there the symmetry breaks down.  Because while the uncaught murderer who might be reading your strip is too rare to be worth worrying about, and knows he has no friends, the sizable minority that is the rapists in your audience might see a hand reaching out, to assuage their fears, to steel them to offend again, or worse, for the first time.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Valdís on 26 Apr 2013, 15:16
I personally don't understand why it was changed

Because Jeph presumably didn't want to have his writing include that. What with being a great guy and all.

or why people let jokes like that get to them.

Right. Because it's their fault it'd be a sensitive issue. After all, it works just like depression: "Have you tried not letting things be triggering?".

Rape is a horrible thing, no doubt.  But so is murder and people make jokes about murder and death all the time.  They may be tasteless, but they're still just jokes and do not condone the action they make fun of.

How is it making fun of the action at all? There's not a word in there saying that. It literally just trivialized the trauma of shy, submissive people. That was the "joke".

If somebody decides to go out and rape somebody because a girl in an internet comic strip made a casual mention of it, there is something seriously wrong with the person, not the creator of the comic strip, for thinking a joke makes the action OK.

No one was saying anything about a direct causation like that, so why are you? (Edit: Well, at the time of your post. Near kind of just did in response to it.)

Not that it isn't troubling as an attitude anyway. Especially given how dismissive people can be to the victims already. Even more so if the perpetrator was female and the victim male.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Welu on 26 Apr 2013, 15:17
In sort of the same tone as Near Lurker's post, you're much more likely to encounter a rape or sexual assault victim than a person who has been murdered.

I'm not sure I entirely gel with that statement
(click to show/hide)
but it is true.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 26 Apr 2013, 15:29
If Sara had been a sexual predator planning to hurt Marten, The Pugnacious Peach would have taken her apart to the quark level, stabbed the quarks, and pooped in their wounds.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Neko_Ali on 26 Apr 2013, 15:30
I would argue the point that the fact that a rape survivor does survive is a part of the difference. It's always true that people who know those who have been raped or murdered and it affects them. But if a person is a victim of murder, then they don't have to worry about it anymore. On the other hand, a person who survived rape, sometimes multiple rapes or ongoing molestation that can last for years.. it is a much more personal and affecting issue for them. The worst part of it though is the fact that people play the victim blaming game. So this person who has already suffered through one of the most horrible things someone can go though has to keep hearing how it was somehow their fault, that they are bad people, that 'some girls just rape so easily' and all that sort of thing.

The problem is how society in general views rape. It's not just that people suffer it, it's is that there is this whole idea that 'it's not that bad', or people deserve it, or people seek it out.. The whole rape culture is the problem, and the joke in that comic was part of the problem. The sort of attitudes at play in it are a bigger problem than offending someone who has suffered rape or knows someone who had.

A joke like that may be just one tiny drip in the ocean.... but one drip after another after another after another wears down a mountain over time...
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: mustang6172 on 26 Apr 2013, 19:54
(http://www.iwatchstuff.com/2011/09/15/et-walkie-talkies.jpg)

As long as we're making this acceptable to the modern public, how about adding a guitar solo to Beethoven's 9th Symphony?  Right between the 3rd and 4th movements!
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Valdís on 26 Apr 2013, 20:09
Yes, clearly that is a terrible tragedy. We should keep perspective as to what really matters in life: make-believe guns.

Why, next they'll be telling us not to trivialize rape if we let this go on. Truly this is the face of oppression.


(Also no, that isn't unacceptable either, that's just your nostalgia talking. Just watch the older version if you don't like it. I also wasn't aware you're not allowed to remix music. Man, a lot of people are in trouble then! (http://youtu.be/u_k-6FLfDkM))
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: mustang6172 on 26 Apr 2013, 20:15
I didn't realize a mention of hypothetical rape in a cartoon (literally make-believe within make-believe) was more important than guns within a single level of make-believe.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: DSL on 27 Apr 2013, 05:28
Jeph became uncomfortable with that particular joke being in there, he had the power to change it, and so he did. Works for me.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 28 Apr 2013, 00:10
Does 1524 offend people?
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Valdís on 28 Apr 2013, 02:56
I didn't realize a mention of hypothetical rape in a cartoon (literally make-believe within make-believe) was more important than guns within a single level of make-believe.

Well, you'd be wrong. It has fuck-all to do with some "Inception" nonsense (and you know that). It's about trivializing rape versus you being upset about walkie-talkies.

Does 1524 offend people?

I don't see why it would. It isn't talking about an actual act of it and even with that Dora outright says it's disturbing and Marten facepalms. It was the attitude of real things that was so bothersome in 10, not the mere mention of the word in any context.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Sidhekin on 28 Apr 2013, 03:26
So, the acts Pintsize draws on paper are not "actual" enough, while the act that Sara hypothesizes in conversion somehow is?

See, that kind of attitude upsets and offends me far more than either Sara or Pintsize's transgressions.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Valdís on 28 Apr 2013, 03:37
Because porn and roleplay are significantly damn different from talking about the situations of actual rape-survivors. I don't see what's complicated about that.

I don't like the first two things either, but they aren't necessarily the same. Someone saying "this group of people want to be raped / actually enjoys being raped" is a lot worse than saying "I drew crass pictures of schoolgirls molesting tentacle-monsters". Especially considering people are against it right there. Number 10 would read a lot differently if Sara had said more or less both of the things and Faye was disturbed or what-have-you. It'd just be a (terrible) reflection of Sara, not the comic.

Also last I checked Pintsize is neither a schoolgirl nor a tentacle-monster.  thank goodness
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Bluesummers on 28 Apr 2013, 11:52
Because porn and roleplay are significantly damn different from talking about the situations of actual rape-survivors.

Indeed. "Tentacle-rape" is an often-fantasized act, but the key word is fantazised (meaning it doesn't happen in real life
(thanks to a Geneva Convention ban on genetically engineered tentacle monsters)).

As Valdís points out, Actual rape is different, and can be a touchy subject.

That being said, I know there are a BUTTLOAD of touchy subjects in this world, many of them covered by this comic. I don't intend to extrapolate upon Jeph's decisions, but merely to end on the point that it was an executive decision he made, and what's done is done.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: mustang6172 on 28 Apr 2013, 14:14
Didn't Momo's old chassis have a tentacle deployment system?  Or was that eels?

So Valdís, how long did it take you to delete all the n-words from Huck Finn?
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Masterpiece on 28 Apr 2013, 14:29
eels.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Welu on 28 Apr 2013, 14:31
That was an alternate strip on Jeph's Tumblr. http://jephjacques.com/post/455925283/alternate-version-of-qc-1624-i-think-this-one-is

Edit: Just remembered Momo did say she could during one of her first appearances, actually.

Edit 2: She says it in her first appearance. (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1298)
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Valdís on 28 Apr 2013, 14:35
So Valdís, how long did it take you to delete all the n-words from Huck Finn?

It's kind of ironic that you would bleep the word in that statement, but.. See:

It was the attitude of real things that was so bothersome in 10, not the mere mention of the word in any context.

It isn't the word that's the problem, it's the attitude. Which is literally the case in Huck Finn, where it's plenty anti-Racist despite just the words. Are you just trolling me or something, Mustang? Because if so that's absurdly inappropriate.

As for the comic's language.. It and maybe a few other non-derogatory words do make me uncomfortable, but that's an issue for me to deal with. Any word that gained mainstream use would end up the same emotionally. That doesn't make the attitude itself okay at all.

Also if it was Mark Twain releasing a new edition where he'd re-written it then that's entirely his prerogative.

Edit 2: She says it in her first appearance. (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1298)

"She just moved in down the block"

Huh, so Marigold is on the same street? Actually didn't know that or I forgot it.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Loki on 28 Apr 2013, 14:46
I find myself confused about the topic of this thread. Is it about

* whether Jeph really changed the strip (he did)
* what triggered the change (we will probably never know)
* whether he had the moral obligation to change it or
* whether he had the moral obligation to leave it like it was?

 :?
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Masterpiece on 28 Apr 2013, 15:33
e. All of the above?
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 28 Apr 2013, 16:35
Momo also listed "eel handling" on her resume.

Marigold is at 14 Elm Grove Lane and Marten is at 144 Dwight Street.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: mustang6172 on 28 Apr 2013, 17:18
I didn't write the full word because I have neither the luxury of living within the 19th century's definition of morality, nor do I have Quentin Tarantino's disregard for racial sensitivity.  It's also possible that would violate the civility clause of the  forum rules. (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,4161.0.html)

I find myself confused about the topic of this thread. Is it about

* whether Jeph really changed the strip (he did)
* what triggered the change (we will probably never know)
* whether he had the moral obligation to change it or
* whether he had the moral obligation to leave it like it was?

 :?

I'm arguing that both artists and the public have a moral obligation to leave art as it is.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: henri bemis on 28 Apr 2013, 19:59
Jeph became uncomfortable with that particular joke being in there, he had the power to change it, and so he did. Works for me.

This.  I'm not sure where 'moral obligations' came into anything.  We don't know why he changed it, but I assume there isn't one, singular reason, and really, it doesn't matter to me.  And I know I'm not the only one glad that he did - not because I'd stop reading QC if he hadn't, but because it demonstrates that he gives a shit, to put it not-so-eloquently.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't get why it's such a problem for some that an author edits his work (without trying to hide anything - it's not like Jeph is trying to pretend the original dialogue didn't exist.  As I see it, he's owning an early fuck-up.  Everyone fucks up, but owning it is rare, so, if anything, his editing the comic just increased my respect).
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Storel on 28 Apr 2013, 20:41
Yeah, I don't buy "moral obligations" on the artist's side. Historically, artists have frequently edited their own works. Some even erased them so they could reuse the canvas for something else, and some didn't even bother erasing the old painting before painting a new one on top of it.

As I see it, an artist's work (painting, sculpture, etc.) belongs to them unless and until they sell it to someone else. Before that happens, they can do anything they want to it, even down to editing it years after originally creating it. It's their creative work, and they get to change it if they come up with something that improves it according to their artistic vision.

Once it's been sold to someone else, it belong to the buyer and the artist has no further right to change it. Whether the buyer has any right to edit it is another story. I would tend to say no, unless they get permission from the artist to do so, because the changed work would still have the original artist's signature on it, but would no longer be entirely their work, so it would be misrepresenting that artist's work.

However, how strongly people would feel about changing an artist's work tends to depend somewhat on how valuable the work is perceived to be. Someone painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa would send shockwaves of outrage around the world, but someone completely altering a hack painting they got from a Motel 6 would probably not upset anyone but the original artist...
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: DSL on 29 Apr 2013, 12:12
I'm thinking of an artist who created a public piece of work, who then decided it wasn't quite what he wanted it to be, and so took it upon himself to "edit" it.

Charges of vandalism were considered.

No, it wasn't George Lucas.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Method of Madness on 29 Apr 2013, 13:09
It isn't the word that's the problem, it's the attitude.
That's one of the reason the change bugs me. The attitude does not change. She's still grabbing Marten and doing her thing without asking if it's ok first, because she'd assume he'd be happy with the result.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Valdís on 29 Apr 2013, 13:24
That's one of the reason the change bugs me. The attitude does not change.

Yes, it does. It's still wrong and objectionable, but differently so. It leaves it open for ambiguity and, given that it's Jeph, I am ready to read an ambiguity in this matter in a favourable light. Especially given a deliberate rewriting moving away from the horrible reading of it.

"What do you think would happen if I just grabbed him and humped him" means Marten can go "Leave me alone", where-as in the previous text that isn't possibly part of the question due to the word used. It does change the meaning. It's not acceptable to do either, but it's a change.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Method of Madness on 29 Apr 2013, 13:42
Interesting. Didn't think of it that way.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Storel on 29 Apr 2013, 15:14
I'm thinking of an artist who created a public piece of work, who then decided it wasn't quite what he wanted it to be, and so took it upon himself to "edit" it.

Charges of vandalism were considered.

No, it wasn't George Lucas.

Hmm, did the artist just install the piece in a public place and say "Here you go," or did a city or other public organization actually commission the work and pay for it? If he received payment for it, than it wasn't his anymore to edit; if he didn't, then it was.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Method of Madness on 29 Apr 2013, 15:24
The latter is arguable. He could've said he was paid to give them a complete painting, and that the painting wasn't complete yet, so he finished it.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Valdís on 29 Apr 2013, 15:27
@Storel: Well, actually.. that doesn't matter, does it? Money being exchanged just usually signifies relinquishing his rights to it. The difference between "I am giving/selling you this DVD" and "I am letting you watch my DVD". In the latter case the person being lent the DVD doesn't really have a leg to stand on if you snap your own disc.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 29 Apr 2013, 16:43
According to some European copyright laws an artist has moral rights in a work that remain in place even after it's sold.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: mtmerrick on 29 Apr 2013, 16:50
Earth's IP laws make my head hurt. >_<
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Valdís on 29 Apr 2013, 17:01
According to some European copyright laws an artist has moral rights in a work that remain in place even after it's sold.

Yeah, but then it's a case of selling the rights to a work, but not the right of alteration. Basically a limited sale, but since the artist has ceased owning the work that wouldn't grant them the right to alter it. Their remaining not-sold right being "Well, you can't either!", pretty much?
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: mustang6172 on 29 Apr 2013, 18:58
Once it's been sold to someone else, it belong to the buyer and the artist has no further right to change it. Whether the buyer has any right to edit it is another story. I would tend to say no, unless they get permission from the artist to do so, because the changed work would still have the original artist's signature on it, but would no longer be entirely their work, so it would be misrepresenting that artist's work.

Haven't all the QC archives been bought and paid for?  Between traffic for advertisers and merchandise, we've allowed Jeph to make a career for himself running one of the few self-sustaining web comics on the internet.  Jeph owns the copyrights, but we've been consuming his products for 10 years.  Don't we own the archives as much as he does?
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: jwhouk on 29 Apr 2013, 19:01
Buy Volume 1 and the original is yours to keep.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Method of Madness on 29 Apr 2013, 21:00
Or, you know, go here (http://web.archive.org/web/20120620231522im_/http://questionablecontent.net/comics/10.png).
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Storel on 29 Apr 2013, 22:58
@Storel: Well, actually.. that doesn't matter, does it? Money being exchanged just usually signifies relinquishing his rights to it. The difference between "I am giving/selling you this DVD" and "I am letting you watch my DVD". In the latter case the person being lent the DVD doesn't really have a leg to stand on if you snap your own disc.

Well, if  you give somebody money so you can watch their DVD and you have to return it when you're done, then the DVD has been rented, not sold. Selling entails a permanent transfer of possession, while renting entails a temporary one. You usually have considerably fewer rights with something you're renting than with something you own, as specified by the local laws (city, state, or nation) and/or any rental contract you may have signed.

According to some European copyright laws an artist has moral rights in a work that remain in place even after it's sold.

Yeah, but then it's a case of selling the rights to a work, but not the right of alteration. Basically a limited sale, but since the artist has ceased owning the work that wouldn't grant them the right to alter it. Their remaining not-sold right being "Well, you can't either!", pretty much?

That's an interesting point. With works of art, unlike most other things you can buy, it's generally understood that owning one gives you the right to do pretty much anything with it except alter it (apart from restoration work on an old or damaged work, of course, and that's not so much altering as repairing; you're trying to return it to its original appearance, rather than changing that appearance to something else). As you put it, all the rights to that work except the right of alteration were sold with it. It's also generally understood, though, that the artist doesn't keep the right of alteration for themselves; they don't have the right to come into your house or museum and alter the work. So the right of alteration basically ceases to exist when the art is sold to someone.

Unless... the local laws give the artist specific rights after sale, as IICIH mentioned. OR unless... the sale contract (oral or written) specifies that the new owner, or the artist, gains or keeps the right to alter the piece of art -- there's always an "unless" when it comes to contracts -- and the local laws don't forbid that practice. But I believe that's pretty rare.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Method of Madness on 29 Apr 2013, 23:02
Wait, that's absurd. Like, if I were to somehow buy The Last Supper, who could actually stop me from adding an extra 16 disciples and a mariachi band? If I owned the painting, I can't imagine anyone stopping me from doing that.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Sidhekin on 29 Apr 2013, 23:05
Legally?  Nope; the copyright is long expired.

I'd watch out for fan(atic)s, though.

ETA: They actually did paint over The Last Supper, the latest such incident from 1978 to 1999.  Not all were too happy about that: James Beck was "scathing" (http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/1999/may/25/artsfeatures3), and Michael Daley described a sleeve as "a serious misrepresentation of Leonardo's final design" (http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/art/news/have-art-restorers-ruined-leonardos-masterpiece-7565727.html).  What might they make of a mariachi band?
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Method of Madness on 29 Apr 2013, 23:13
How would the copyright stop me from altering a copy I own? It could stop me from displaying the new version, sure, but it can't stop me from actually altering it for my personal use. That's like saying I can't buy a book and cross out the main character's name and write my own. (I have never done this, but reserve the right to do so.)
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Sidhekin on 29 Apr 2013, 23:38
I probably shouldn't call it "copyright".  It's just that "opphavsrett", the rights of the originator, is a bundled lot of rights, and usually translated as "copyright".  Having said that, I think an argument can be made from "copyright" alone:

You can amend the work, but you can never show anyone. Not until copyright has expired.

So, what happens if the work is misplaced or stolen?  How will the artist's copyright be protected?

And then, what happens if you go bankrupt?  If it is a printing of a book, that's no problem: Burn it.  (Ouch.)  No damage to copyright, and no great loss to your creditors.  (It'll probably be worthless, anyway.)

If it is an original painting or sculpture, though?  You're in a fix: If you give it up to your creditors, you have violated copyright; if you do not, you have wronged your creditors.

So, don't do it. :)
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: PHDrillSergeant on 02 May 2013, 05:57
There certainly are a lot of people offended by a years-old hand-drawn webcomic on the internet. Claiming stuff is "horrendously offensive" and such. While I understand that rape is a serious subject, I also think that just because someone makes a joke about it doesn't mean everyone should suddenly go into "censor it" mode. I wholeheartedly oppose censorship of any kind, and I've said before that I lose respect for people who censor their work because someone else is offended. If you don't like it, don't read it.
You can amend the work, but you can never show anyone. Not until copyright has expired.

That's not how copyright works. At all.

You could show people all you wanted to. You could plaster your face with the image and distribute it and all sorts of stuff. It would be a copyright violation, but you could do it.

It only becomes illegal after the copyright owner tells you you cannot do whatever it is you're doing anymore. But you have to actually do it first. But in the case of an altered webcomic, or a book with names changed, the copyright owner isn't going to say anything because he'd be pretty much unable to prove damages.

A lot of people make this mistake, and it leads to scathing criticisms of copyright; the illegality of what you're doing is something which is a right held by the copyright owner. If the copyright owner doesn't stop you, you're good as gold.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Method of Madness on 02 May 2013, 06:53
Is art not covered under the first sale doctrine?
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Valdís on 02 May 2013, 07:19
There certainly are a lot of people offended by a years-old hand-drawn webcomic on the internet. Claiming stuff is "horrendously offensive" and such. While I understand that rape is a serious subject, I also think that just because someone makes a joke about it doesn't mean everyone should suddenly go into "censor it" mode. I wholeheartedly oppose censorship of any kind, and I've said before that I lose respect for people who censor their work because someone else is offended. If you don't like it, don't read it.

That would be Jeph you're referring to, not a third party. Every single time this has been brought up it's been by one of the people getting pissy about him not liking what he wrote a decade ago, unrepresentative of him and the comic.

This was noticed and mentioned after he had already made the change, to my knowledge.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: cam94509 on 02 May 2013, 09:36

I'm arguing that both artists and the public have a moral obligation to leave art as it is.

I'm going to have to disagree. If you were, for instance, to tell a Let's Player that they have the moral obligation not to remove or change their episodes after they were posted, I think they'd probably laugh at you. New editions of books have, for the longest time, fixed errors, and presumably other things that made the author uncomfortable. That weight has never honestly been put on the distribution of new copies by an artist before, and I'm not sure it's a reasonable one to put on them now.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Method of Madness on 02 May 2013, 09:40
New editions don't make the older editions disappear.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: cam94509 on 02 May 2013, 09:44
New editions don't make the older editions disappear.
No, and Jeph's new edition doesn't destroy all the book editions out there, nor any versions you have saved to your computer or printed out already.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Method of Madness on 02 May 2013, 10:08
But new editions acknowledge that they are new.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: cam94509 on 02 May 2013, 10:19
But new editions acknowledge that they are new.
Sure, but I think there is no moral imperative to do so, especially given that they don't ever tell you what has changed where since edition 1.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: pwhodges on 02 May 2013, 10:35
Are the people who argue that Jeph shouldn't have changed it prepared to be fully consistent and argue that he should now put back wording that is clearly understood to be hurtful to some people?  If not, don't you think it's time to let this rather silly discussion go?
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: MillionDollar Belt Sander on 02 May 2013, 10:42
It's Jeph's comic.    Jeph can do as he wishes.

That said,  I prefer the original but I FULLY understand why the change was made.  And I am not going to complain or argue the fact.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 02 May 2013, 12:17
The first sale doctrine might be modified outside the Anglo-American world by an idea I've seen translated as "moral rights" of the author.

Copyright holders can sue under US law for "statutory damages" without having to establish a given degree of economic harm.

As long as Jeph was acting on his own principles (which he's done before) then I see no grounds for me to criticize, which would be idle anyway.

As far as getting across the joke of the strip, English is as far as I know without a verb for "to engage in what Erica Jong would have called a 'zipless fuck', which is a fantasy because the need for consent doesn't evaporate into thin air any more than the clothes do, and to describe it to a friend in such a way as to cause discomfort, producing nervous laughter in much the same way that poop jokes do, even though feces are not particularly comical, but without causing pain to survivors of violence or reducing the impact of the word for a violent crime".
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Method of Madness on 02 May 2013, 12:27
If not, don't you think it's time to let this rather silly discussion go?
I don't think it's a silly discussion at all! I think it turned into an interesting conversation. As for the comic itself, I basically agree with MDBS's post now. I hadn't really thought about it, but now it makes sense. But it's still interesting to think about whether or not he should have changed it, even if we all agree that he has the right to.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 02 May 2013, 14:24
I too found it interesting but it's near the end of its life cycle.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: cassie on 02 May 2013, 19:53
The discussion has drifted more into copyright laws but it's very possible it was changed to prevent potential triggers. I have no issue with an artist going back and editing his or her work. It's an old comic but it's also very early into the series--I'd hate for someone to start QC from the beginning, come across that, and be turned off from the comic as a whole just from it.

But whatever, I suppose it doesn't really matter at the end of the day.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Valdís on 03 May 2013, 04:50
It's an old comic but it's also very early into the series--I'd hate for someone to start QC from the beginning, come across that, and be turned off from the comic as a whole just from it.

Yeah, good thing I started around the time Hannelore was introduced and went back later. Wouldn't be a great first impression. :-P
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: MillionDollar Belt Sander on 03 May 2013, 09:24
Rape "humor" occupies the same place in my joke-toolbox as Hitler/Holocaust jokes,  abortion wisecracks and dead-baby jokes.    You have to gauge your audience VERY carefully and even then that sort of ultra-dark/gruesome humor makes you kinda... meh... even if you get a chuckle out of people.

While I understand the original joke and how it was intended -- female on male rape does occur and just like male on female rape it's a serious crime.      I get where he was going with the analogy --  I too have wished a certain specific hot-chick would "jump me" and drag me off.  ;)    However...  and he has successfully demonstrated it... the joke DOES work without the darker term.

In this case I liked the original joke.  I "got" where he was going with it, and I do get a chuckle out of it.   However I am NOT the majority of the fan base,  nor have I been attacked/traumatized in that way.   Why take the chance on offending people when a slight edit preserves the spirit of the joke.

In the end... as I said above it's Jeph's comic.  He can edit it how he wants and I will still read it.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: MillionDollar Belt Sander on 03 May 2013, 09:29
Well, I only remember it because we went from talking about whether Steve had his junk out to whether old Faye really would have been offended at a casual rape joke.

Ok in-universe explanation:    We saw in a guest strip Faye had access to a time-machine perhaps she was offended by the joke after all -- and she went back to change it.   In doing so she accidentally caused Sara to cease to exist.    If you don't want to count the guest strip,  maybe she used the same technology that Raven hooked into the Esspressosaur.    In fact,  Sara wasn't eaten by a REAL dino, she was done in by a time-traveling espresso-machine SHAPED like one.

All because of a joke that offended Faye. 

Moral of the story is:  Don't piss off women with rape-humor,  especially if there is ANY possibility of time-travel.
Title: Re: Censoring an old strip?
Post by: Method of Madness on 03 May 2013, 11:03
I think it would have been funnier with "fuck" instead of "hump" but that's a different argument.