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Comic Discussion => QUESTIONABLE CONTENT => Topic started by: jwhouk on 08 Jun 2014, 06:38

Title: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: jwhouk on 08 Jun 2014, 06:38
Another week lays out before us like a rug that is in serious need of shampooing.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: KOK on 08 Jun 2014, 08:16
A virgin week, pregnant with posibility.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Loki on 08 Jun 2014, 08:47
Like Lady Mary.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: FunkyTuba on 08 Jun 2014, 11:08
or Lovely Rita?
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Kugai on 08 Jun 2014, 12:17
There are a Trillian things that could happen
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: cesariojpn on 08 Jun 2014, 13:06
Like Lady Mary.

Til her husband dies, leaving her a widow.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Mlle Germain on 08 Jun 2014, 13:58
Is that a Downton Abbey reference? If not, never mind.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Detachable Felix on 08 Jun 2014, 14:21
There are a Trillian things that could happen
It's a land of Infinite Improbability.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: jwhouk on 08 Jun 2014, 14:43
There are a Trillian things that could happen
It's a land of Infinite Improbability.

I only put up eight options, not 42.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Rghfrgl on 08 Jun 2014, 15:09
@jeph
Quote
Huh. Things took an unexpectedly dramatic turn in Monday's comic.

Hanners, stop killing everyone.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Mlle Germain on 08 Jun 2014, 15:13
 :-o Ohohoh... Sounds bad. Dramatic is usually bad.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: jwhouk on 08 Jun 2014, 17:48
My money's on Marigold.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: ankhtahr on 08 Jun 2014, 18:15
Plot twist: they didn't release May, she broke out!
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Method of Madness on 08 Jun 2014, 18:23
Hanners, stop killing everyone.
Hey, they're the ones who woke her up :roll:
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: jwhouk on 08 Jun 2014, 19:11
Comi...


Oh wow.


Uhm, ladies, gentlemen and others: I think we just saw the first case of bigotry in the run of QC.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Near Lurker on 08 Jun 2014, 19:35
She changes fast.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: mustang6172 on 08 Jun 2014, 19:47
Yet another example of why civil rights for robots is a bad idea.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: SuctionCup Caper Two on 08 Jun 2014, 19:51
KABOOM
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Neko_Ali on 08 Jun 2014, 20:45
I do believe that's the first time I've ever seen a Drama F-Bomb.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: GarandMarine on 08 Jun 2014, 20:45
Tell'em May!

She looked cute as hell in the tank and jeans combo though.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 08 Jun 2014, 21:26
Momo had a lot of trouble finding a job, but Jeph said at the time that it had more to do with the economy and that anti-robot bigotry was not widespread.

On the other hand, Marten was prejudiced about AnthroPCs being able to make coffee.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Northern Light on 08 Jun 2014, 21:45
First time poster here, sup?

Now, addressing the comic: there are many incredibly valid points to not hiring AI employees, the first and foremost of which is the most obvious - they aren't human. When there are fully qualified people applying for the same position, the decision to instead "hire" an AI is, frankly, immoral. The employer is making a conscious decision to contribute to poverty and human suffering, even if his intentions lie elsewhere (the road to Hell and all that); most likely with his profit margins. It is comparable to self-service machines taking the place of people, or assembly lines being staffed with robots.

Frankly, I agree with the boss in today's strip. On top of being literally inhuman, May exhibits other qualities which would be red flags for any intelligent employer - she has a short fuse, she curses, she is confrontational, she has a sarcastic streak a mile wide, etc. Moreover, the idea of any kind of Robot Civil Rights is outright ludicrous. Machines are our tools, not our equals. We make them in order to accomplish things we cannot on our own, and if we gave them the ability to both think for themselves and Freedom of Action, we would be stepping into our graves. These are not genetically engineered humans, which is a whole 'nother kettle o' fish, these are constructs of metals and composites loaded with data made to enhance our lives, nothing more.

Empathy is reserved for living beings. Machines are not alive. A mimicry of a human mind contained in a robot is not alive, it is merely a simulacrum of life - a testament to its engineers' ability, to be sure, but that is all.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: ankhtahr on 08 Jun 2014, 22:01
It's been made well clear, that in the QCverse AIs are considered to be alive, and have been granted civil rights at our side. AIs are as alive as any human being, and are in all aspects considered like humans.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 08 Jun 2014, 22:26
Anyone who can knowingly ask for civil rights, and agree to the responsibilities that come with them, is a person whether she's implemented with transistors or with goo.

Jeph said there's not as much competition as you'd expect between AIs and humans for jobs. A lot of AIs displace less intelligent machines, like the toaster. A lot of the rest don't want to work.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: hedgie on 08 Jun 2014, 22:35
It's been made well clear, that in the QCverse AIs are considered to be alive, and have been granted civil rights at our side. AIs are as alive as any human being, and are in all aspects considered like humans.

Not to mention that they have bills to pay, and can also experience the same level of suffering as any human.   Denying an AI employment on that basis alone is certainly lawsuit worthy in the QC 'verse.  Now, denying *May* a job might make sense, at least in any service job that isn't CoD-like.  She might work as a bartender at some dive where surly service is expected.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Loki on 08 Jun 2014, 22:54
On top of being literally inhuman, May exhibits other qualities which would be red flags for any intelligent employer - she has a short fuse, she curses, she is confrontational, she has a sarcastic streak a mile wide, etc.

Those may well be valid reasons for not hiring May, but the boss doesn't hire AIs on a general basis.

Which means that if, say, Momo came along (who is the most hospitable AI person we know) she also wouldn't get a chance.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: techkid on 08 Jun 2014, 22:58
May exhibits other qualities which would be red flags for any intelligent employer - she has a short fuse, she curses, she is confrontational, she has a sarcastic streak a mile wide, etc.
Your argument on AI rights aside (which is actually kind of central to QC (see here (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php?topic=27713.msg1070200#msg1070200),  here (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,27240.0.html), here (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2085) and here (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2201)), May is no more surly nor belligerent than people can be. Hell, look at any forum or social media page, and you will see instances of rudeness that border on sociopathy. Do they also not deserve the same rights to employment? They do, but they need to pull their heads out of their asses if they are going to be dealing with people on a daily basis (although, once they're promoted to manager or something...).

On comic: it's the same sort of inflection when people say "I'm not racist/sexist/homophobic etc., but <insert derogatory comment about aforementioned group here>".
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Mad Cat on 08 Jun 2014, 23:38
I love how Utopian the QC-verse is. With the real world America seeing fewer than 2 in 3 available workers seeking work, http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-number-of-jobs-grows-but-not-labor-force-participation/2014/06/06/aa0ee18a-ed9e-11e3-b84b-3393a45b80f1_story.html the QC-verse can worry about job opportunities for sentient machines. That is why I would rather live in the QC-verse than any other fictional universe barnone.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Mad Cat on 08 Jun 2014, 23:46
"I'm not racist/sexist/homophobic etc., but <insert derogatory comment about aforementioned group here>".
The proper way to punctuate any such sentence is immediately after the word "but", by placing your fist in the speaker's face.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Kugai on 09 Jun 2014, 00:32
So, it exists.

I've often wondered if it did.

Stands to reason considering Humans will be Humans

And on occasion douchbags.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: hedgie on 09 Jun 2014, 01:03
Anti-AI prejudice in the QC 'verse is in fact canon.  Has been for quite some time.  This is just the first time that the bigotry is so overt.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Ben on 09 Jun 2014, 01:06
Classic Liberal Left attitude. I wouldn't hire May, but I wouldn't hire a human with her attitude either unless they demonstrated some skill I wanted pretty badly.

But; we know May and Momo don't sleep or eat, and could stand in a broom cupboard indefinitely, or even - probably - just out in the yard, and come to no lasting harm. Any damaged or malfunctioning component or sub-assembly can be replaced, assuming someone is willing to pay for it. They have no elderly parents, no dependants and don't age as far as we know, although presumably their joints wear out eventually. They can simply transfer into a new body, and do so as the situation requires.

I'd say they have rights and abilities so far beyond anything the human characters have that the humans should be suing THEM
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: ZoeB on 09 Jun 2014, 01:08
First time poster here, sup?

I'm glad that this is the kind of place where views like yours can be aired without rancour. I think you'll find them unpopular, but I hope no-one will descend into rudeness should they try rebutting you. Fingers X'd.

The primary reason that your views are likely to be unpopular is that in the QC verse, AI's are people. Both de facto and apparently de jure.

You'll also find a number of readers and forum contributors who have been treated poorly, for very similar reasons to the ones you gave for robots generally, rather than May in particular. They have been in exactly that situation. Consequently, they are unlikely to be sympathetic to your argument.

For an example, you may wish to look through this thread. It's long, but you may find it informative.
http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php?topic=28457.0
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Ben on 09 Jun 2014, 01:18
Anti-AI prejudice in the QC 'verse is in fact canon.  Has been for quite some time.  This is just the first time that the bigotry is so overt.

But, but, but... the Idoru outlet appears to be entirely staffed by robots and AIs and no-one seems to regard this as exceptional. I don't doubt that if asked, Idoru would produce a business case in short order, that their business is robot-centred and demonstrating that AIs can do the job is a business-driven decision. By the same token, I'd guess the number of humanoid AIs walking in the clothing shop are pretty small and human staff were good for business.

It's a basic characteristic of political correctness that it functions by excluding people who have no reason to support it.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: techkid on 09 Jun 2014, 01:36
Okay. Say being a Caucasian somehow magically became a "minority group" (calling this a stretch of the imagination is an understatement, I know). "Whities" as they are known are... tolerated, most people may actually befriend them, but there is stigma hanging around them still. Say then, as a Caucasian seeking employment, you go into a neighbourhood that looks pretty friendly and accepting, and the person at the reception says "Sorry, but I wouldn't try. The boss doesn't hate Caucasians, but, well...". How would that feel to you, personally?

Even if there was some sort of context to it, would you still accept it as a sentient being, when you are the one being prejudiced against?
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Ben on 09 Jun 2014, 01:54
I don't know about "somehow, magically", because there are plenty of places in the UK where that's exactly what has happened, and it isn't popular.

Political correctness is great, for as long as you can sit there feeling smug about about it on your parents' money, or the tax-payers' expense. It ISN'T so great when you are thinking, oh wow, THAT'S a days' wages? Or tbe government is telling you they are closing hospitals to pay for benefits to people in another land, or you read about "Operation Bullfinch", Rotherham and "Trojan Horse" (non-UK readers can do their own research, GIYF ).

AIs are the ultimate aliens; manufactured by unspecified, unaccountable third parties to displace humans, and allowed to run around free for no reason so far stated.

OF COURSE there are people who don't like them. Closing your eyes and ears and crying "racist, bigot, yada yada, four legs good, two legs bad" is no answer
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: cesariojpn on 09 Jun 2014, 02:29
Second to last panel.....the clerks words don't seem to flow properly. What exactly was she trying to say and invoke?
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Loki on 09 Jun 2014, 02:41

AIs are the ultimate aliens; manufactured by unspecified, unaccountable third parties to displace humans, and allowed to run around free for no reason so far stated.

(emphasis mine)
There is no canon evidence whatsoever that their purpose is to displace humans. How AIs came into being in general was, I believe, linked to numerous times in this thread; how or why, indeed, specific AIs come into being we do not know.

Your sentence is a bit difficult to understand to me; at first I thought you had said that aliens (as in, foreigners) have the purpose to displace the current population and should not be allowed to run around freely.
I should not need mention that such views, were they indeed expressed, would not be tolerated on this forum.

Quote
OF COURSE there are people who don't like them. Closing your eyes and ears and crying "racist, bigot, yada yada, four legs good, two legs bad" is no answer
I do not believe anyone here was saying that in the manner you described.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Schmee on 09 Jun 2014, 02:52
AIs are the ultimate aliens; manufactured by unspecified, unaccountable third parties to displace humans, and allowed to run around free for no reason so far stated.

"No reason so far stated"? How about the fact that AIs in general seem to be sentient, functioning members of society? Pintsize and May are exceptions to the rule; they get more coverage in QC because they're good for laughs.

If your problem with AIs stems (as it seems to) from the fact that they aren't human, then in the world of QC you would be considered a bigot. In this fictional world, AIs haven't stolen people's jobs, they aren't replacing people, and as far as we can see there isn't any downside to their existence at all. Opposing them simply on the basis that they aren't like you is not justifiable.

Closing your eyes and ears and crying "racist, bigot, yada yada, four legs good, two legs bad" is no answer

People keep on ignoring what you have to say and calling you a racist and a bigot? I wonder why.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Ben on 09 Jun 2014, 03:33
So..... the sentient control unit for a self-driving forklift ISN'T displacing the human who would otherwise be driving it? The robot sales staff in the Idoru outlet AREN'T doing jobs that would otherwise be done by humans? AIs don't breed, they are manufactured. They clearly aren't cheap, and someone must be financing their construction for a clearly defined purpose.

Station is clearly doing a job which no human could do, and Pintsize is clearly meant to be understood as a gadget along the lines of an iPad, but Momo and May?

I know its much easier to chant "racist, bigot" than discuss the implications rationally, but to simply wave the question away saying "no downside at all" is naive in tne extreme. The later Discworld books have quite a nuanced image of, for example, golems. Golems clearly have a history of being resented, but they clearly DO displace human workers under certain circumstances - at the foundry, for example. In some cases they do jobs no human could physically do - pumping water in a shaft is a common example. Their agenda of purchasing each other by cooperative effort is clearly something few humans care about, because either the golem remains at its task for wages, or another one replaces it. There is a specific example in one of the later books, in which tbe Patrician rules that they cannot be employed within the City because they would collapse the economy, essentially by removing much if the currency from circulation

Dwarves are different; much if their activity consists of selling things not otherwise available, working for quite high wages or pursuing enterprises such as the "mine" in Thud! Which no human would wish to pursue. Trolls are different again; they appear to have few marketable skills and serve as unskilled labour, although whether they work for lower wages  than humans, isn't specified.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: jwhouk on 09 Jun 2014, 04:10
Second to last panel.....the clerks words don't seem to flow properly. What exactly was she trying to say and invoke?

She's explaining why she puts up with the bigotry: money.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: jwhouk on 09 Jun 2014, 04:16
AIs don't breed, they are manufactured. They clearly aren't cheap, and someone must be financing their construction for a clearly defined purpose.

You seen the price of what it costs to raise a child to age 18 these days?
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: ankhtahr on 09 Jun 2014, 04:26
Also I'm not quite sure where it was, but if I remember correctly, then AIs aren't manufactured. Their bodies are.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Soylent Green on 09 Jun 2014, 04:52
Honestly I have to agree with Northern Light.  Moreover, most of the posters in this thread seem to be completely ignoring the issue for the sake of appearing politically correct in regards to an issue that shouldn't exist in the first place.  Really, the idea that equal rights would be given to AI is quite a horrifying idea.

You seen the price of what it costs to raise a child to age 18 these days?

For the most part children are concieved either on accident or to pass on ones genes to another generation.  Why exactly and by whom are the AI being produced?

She's explaining why she puts up with the bigotry: money.

I would be more accurate to say that she is putting up with it because life has placed her in such a position.  Though I wouldn't call it bigotry since the AI isn't even alive in a truly meaningful way.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: jwhouk on 09 Jun 2014, 04:54
Dangit, my record of threads created without a lock is going to end this week, isn't it?
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Mad Cat on 09 Jun 2014, 04:56
Okay. Say being a Caucasian somehow magically became a "minority group" (calling this a stretch of the imagination is an understatement, I know).
It's actually projected that in the 2043, "Non-Hispanic Whites" will drop to less than 50% of the U.S. Census population, at which point there would be no true majority, and America will become a "majority minority nation". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_racial_and_ethnic_demographics_of_the_United_States#Projections_for_2020_through_2060 Of course, when you add Mono-Racial Whites to Hispanic Whites to Multi-Racial but identify as Whites, those white people will remain in the majority until well into the 22nd century. But the fact remains that the majority minority America is coming.

 Warning - while you were typing Earth was invaded by aliens from space and the Moon exploded. You may wish to bugout to the hills.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Thrillho on 09 Jun 2014, 04:57
Shopgirl did not deserve that attitude. At all.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: TheBiscuit on 09 Jun 2014, 05:12
Shopgirl did not deserve that attitude. At all.
I'm not sure if I can agree. She could have just given May an application, without opening the discussion about AI employment. A discussion which the law has already closed, making the store owner wrong.

I don't know about "somehow, magically", because there are plenty of places in the UK where that's exactly what has happened, and it isn't popular.
I dare say it isn't popular with racists and the type of people who vote UKIP - but I repeat myself of course. Anyone else has no reason to care.

White is still the overwhelming majority of people in the UK. Over 87% according to the last census.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: epmin on 09 Jun 2014, 05:31
Shopgirl did not deserve that attitude. At all.
This quote made me want to chime in with my tuppence worth.  Having worked in clothing store for a number of years, I feel i should point out that, whilst shopgirl could have worded herself better, May is positively polite and pleasant compared to the usual attitude from 'humans' when they hear something they don't like during a clothes shopping trip.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Loki on 09 Jun 2014, 05:36
Dangit, my record of threads created without a lock is going to end this week, isn't it?

Moderator Comment I very much wish to avoid that. As such, I request that the discussion about projected demographics of whatever country stops here, as it is hardly relevant to the topic of AI rights and opens up a whole new can of worms. (This is not a statement about whether other discussion here does or does not, mind.)


So..... the sentient control unit for a self-driving forklift ISN'T displacing the human who would otherwise be driving it? The robot sales staff in the Idoru outlet AREN'T doing jobs that would otherwise be done by humans? AIs don't breed, they are manufactured. They clearly aren't cheap, and someone must be financing their construction for a clearly defined purpose.

I was making no statement about whether the forklift is indeed displacing a human - I was postulating there is no evidence someone is creating AIs for the express purpose of replacing humans. Are you saying there is evidence someone is doing so? To what means would they be doing that?
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Soylent Green on 09 Jun 2014, 05:43
Quote
To what means would they be doing that?

To marginalize humans.  To undermine the structure of whatever country the story takes place in.  To bring about the end of humanity.  Because they can.  Any of these reasons could work as an explanation.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Loki on 09 Jun 2014, 05:54
Again: Why, why and why? (The fourth one does not beg the question, but Occam's razor speaks against it.)
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: ZoeB on 09 Jun 2014, 06:11
Really, the idea that equal rights would be given to AI is quite a horrifying idea.
Fair enough. I now proclaim you to be an AI. I got access to your medical records - apparently you're a "test tube baby" so by my beliefs, and even in one or two jurisdictions, are not a natural person.

Actually the above is a load of codswallop. Even if I had l33t hxor skils (OK, I do, I taught cyberwarfare at the Australian Defence Force Academy) it would take considerable effort even to identify you. It would break a number of laws. It would also be really, really unethical from a professional viewpoint (and I taught ethics in databases at the Australian National University), as well as being rude and insulting to our hosts here at QC. So rest assured, it's something I'd never even attempt. Nor would I use contacts in Five Eyes.

The "not a natural person" bit is true though. Even Intersex people aren't regarded as such in some jurisdictions. See 63 Fair Empl.Prac.Cas. (BNA) 677, 44 Empl. Prac. Dec. P 37,314 Wilma WOOD v.C.G. STUDIOS, INC. Civ. A. No. 86-2563.nUnited States District Court,E.D. Pennsylvania.

I'm sorry you find the idea "horrifying". You're not alone in your views either. Are there any other kinds of people, different from yourself,  that you would be uncomfortable granting human rights to? And if so, please justify why you should have the power so to do, and even why others should grant you human rights in turn?

I will stipulate that you should have them - because you are a person. Natural or not.

Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: ZoeB on 09 Jun 2014, 06:19
Though I wouldn't call it bigotry since the AI isn't even alive in a truly meaningful way.
Interesting assertion. Would you care to elucidate here? As you might guess, my view differs, but then, you'll find a presentation of mine (http://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/titles/alife/0262290758chap70.pdf) in the Proceedings of the 12th International Conference on the Synthesis and Simulation of Living Systems, so my objectivity is questionable.

I'm genuinely interested in what you have to say, and your reasons. I have no time for "argument by authority" especially when it's my own.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: GarandMarine on 09 Jun 2014, 06:20
Occam's Razor speaks against a lot of similar theories. Interestingly this all speaks to a real thing we're going to have to deal with with machines. Human beings aren't going to be required for shitty manual labor soon. Hell for shit like station, we already have large teams of humans and computers doing similar tasks, but one station can replace all of those systems.

The nature of work in a post singularity world is going to change and restructure itself completely. Look at Star Trek for an example. It's a utopian society with a very egalitarian lifestyle. Why? We don't see a lot of the "work" of the world of Star Trek in the practical sense, but what glimpses we get of Terra at various points leads one to believe there really isn't that much "work" left in the traditional sense. Machines, computers and motherfucking replicators handle much of the labor, and the latter drastically improves supply. There relationship to work has changed drastically. So will ours in the next century or so as machines grow more intelligent and capable of more complex tasks. Already machines are replacing face to face basic service industry jobs. (What do you think a self checkout is?) It would not be surprising to see a fully automated restaurant in the next few years.

Those of course are all relatively dumb machines. What about an intelligent one? Like Momo or May? Even Pintsize, who isn't purchased but rather matched, more like an adoption or dating service then buying a new "gadget". If a machine is intelligent enough to communicate it's desire for self determination, and understand the deeper implications of that request, what exactly is the justification for telling it no? Remember this is post singularity. Momo, May, Station, Pintsize, even that toaster are NOT AIs in the constructed sense. Their programs had origins in such, but the singularity is specifically the point of critical mass where such programs gain sentience on their own. Sapience isn't, as far as we know, something we can program or construct, but with enough computing power and learning programs, it's not so shocking a thought that it could one day happen.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Thrillho on 09 Jun 2014, 06:26
Shopgirl did not deserve that attitude. At all.
This quote made me want to chime in with my tuppence worth.  Having worked in clothing store for a number of years, I feel i should point out that, whilst shopgirl could have worded herself better, May is positively polite and pleasant compared to the usual attitude from 'humans' when they hear something they don't like during a clothes shopping trip.

I know. I also work in customer service. I've worked in goddamn telesales. I know what an absolute prick Average Joe Customer can be with much less justification than what May has. However it being the norm does not mean the girl deserved it. As she says even within the comic we all need to work to you know, not die of starvation. And the world is in recession.

And yeah the girl could've handled it better, but if she is trying to save someone some hassle by observing what a prejudiced piece of shit her boss is, she does not deserve someone screaming in her face about what a prejudiced piece of shit her boss is.

I do not like May.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Soylent Green on 09 Jun 2014, 06:32
Let's start from the top then.

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Fair enough. I now proclaim you to be an AI. I got access to your medical records - apparently you're a "test tube baby" so by my beliefs, and even in one or two jurisdictions, are not a natural person.

One is a living creature, a biological entity.  The other is a machine and does not qualify as being human. 

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The "not a natural person" bit is true though. Even Intersex people aren't regarded as such in some jurisdictions.

That is accurate, as they are not natural people, in the strictest sense.  They are posthuman.

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I'm sorry you find the idea "horrifying".

Not a particularly important question, but why did that require quotes?

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Are there any other kinds of people, different from yourself,  that you would be uncomfortable granting human rights to?

Things that are not human. I do not believe that inhuman entities necessarily deserve human rights.

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And if so, please justify why you should have the power so to do

I never claimed to have that right.  Moreover, I do not have that right.  All I have are opinions, like everyone else here.

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and even why others should grant you human rights in turn?

Because I am human.

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I will stipulate that you should have them - because you are a person. Natural or not.

That is... a dangerous thought, for humanity at any rate.  Also, not to be too rude, but you don't have the power to make such stipulations.  All we have are opinions.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: GarandMarine on 09 Jun 2014, 06:41
Do non-terrestrial sapient beings deserve to be afforded the same rights as our much talked about breed of hairless monkey that thinks rather highly of itself?
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Soylent Green on 09 Jun 2014, 06:43
Though I wouldn't call it bigotry since the AI isn't even alive in a truly meaningful way.
Interesting assertion. Would you care to elucidate here? As you might guess, my view differs, but then, you'll find a presentation of mine (http://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/titles/alife/0262290758chap70.pdf) in the Proceedings of the 12th International Conference on the Synthesis and Simulation of Living Systems, so my objectivity is questionable.

I'm genuinely interested in what you have to say, and your reasons. I have no time for "argument by authority" especially when it's my own.

Honestly, I am finding it fairly intimidating trying to explain my thoughts.  I am not a particularly intelligent individual, so I doubt I could properly voice the reasoning behind my opinions.  If that means that my views are worthless then I am sorry that I posted them.  I don't really want to be a bother, I just wanted to voice my feelings on the topic presented.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Loki on 09 Jun 2014, 06:44
Please explain the terms "human" and "posthuman".
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Akima on 09 Jun 2014, 06:47
On top of being literally inhuman, May exhibits other qualities which would be red flags for any intelligent employer
Except, of course, the employer had no opportunity to observe any of her negative traits, since they simply apply a blanket "no robots" rule, so her personal characteristics were not relevant to her rejection. It would be as if I enquired about a job, and regardless of my virtues or flaws, was rejected simply because I am East Asian. If that's OK with you, we are not going to be friends.

Shopgirl did not deserve that attitude. At all.
She's knowingly complicit in discrimination that is apparently illegal in the QC-verse. That is not an "innocent" position, and the "I was only obeying orders" defence is very flimsy. May aimed her abusive remarks at the employer, not the assistant, and pointing out calmly that she was working for a bigot was accurate and fair; everyone is responsible for their choices. And if a shop assistant told me to my face that the shop had a policy of not hiring Asians, I'd walk out too. Not a cent of my money would they ever see again, and I would do my best to discourage my family, friends, and anyone else I could influence from shopping there.

Political correctness is great, for as long as you can sit there feeling smug about about it on your parents' money, or the tax-payers' expense.
I don't live on my parent's money. I work full-time, pay my taxes, help support my family, and the only tax-payers' money I receive is for doing contract IT work in a large public teaching hospital. I mean, it is OK for me to work, isn't it? Or am I stealing a job from a real person? Oh, and I don't read the Guardian, or have twinkly eyes either (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php?topic=29437.msg1247531#msg1247531). I think that covers all of your sneers about political correctness that I can remember.

What you call "political correctness", I find generally amounts to my being accorded the same legal rights as my fellow Australian citizens, and a bare minimum of respect as a human being. Beyond that, the idea that I have the same status as a member of the majority population is laughable. And yet that is apparently too much. Yes, you see, I am one of the immigrants you apparently dislike. I live in something of a Chinatown where about 40% of the population is East or South-East Asian. We're mainly of Chinese descent, many like me first-generation, but with significant Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese populations too. And yes that is "not popular" - with racist bigots. You can make all the excuses you like, but if you reject people, or value them less,  because of their race, you are a racist bigot. You can tap-dance all you like, but in the end it simply comes down to trying to find ways to justify and approve of racism. And if you are going to do that, you will always find me on the other side, without even the smallest twinkle in my eyes.

We all have opinions, and we are wholly, solely, and inescapably, personally responsible for them. No opinion is "just" an opinion. The opinions we choose to hold say a great deal about what we are.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: pwhodges on 09 Jun 2014, 06:47
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The "not a natural person" bit is true though. Even Intersex people aren't regarded as such in some jurisdictions.

That is accurate, as they are not natural people, in the strictest sense.  They are posthuman.

Global Moderator Comment We do not prevent people in this forum having mistaken views; however, attempts to defend views which we consider indefensible are another matter. There are a number of threads in the Discuss! forum which could help you understand a bit more about human sexuality and gender issues; but until you have studied them, or some equivalent resource, and gained a greater understanding yourself, I advise you to steer well clear of statements of this sort. You may not be aware that your statement that intersex people are not natural pertains directly to someone with whom you are discussing...
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Neko_Ali on 09 Jun 2014, 06:49
Claiming minorities as inhuman is standard procedure when it comes to discriminating against them. I think that you will find most of your arguments have been used, practically verbatim, against women, LGBT people and especial people who are in the racial minority, doubly so if they are immigrants. "They're coming to take our jobs!" has been a rallying cry against immigration for as long as I know.

AIs are not human. But they are intelligent, self aware, thinking and feeling beings. They might as well be human except in regards to their origins and bodies. And at such time that we can significantly or completely replace a human body with a synthetic android one, their differences will become near pointless.

And finally in regards to the 'they have replaced a human in that job'. No. They haven't. They are the most qualified person for the job. Every time a job position is filled it means that a bunch of people were rejected. Unless there was only one applicant, something that rarely happens. So did that person steal that job from everyone else? What if that person is a minority? I've heard that rallying cry from bigots a lot. "They only got that job because they are a woman/black/disabled." Is basically saying "A normal person should have got that job."
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: GarandMarine on 09 Jun 2014, 06:51
For the record. "Just following orders" is not a flimsy defense. Per all precedents in military and civilian law it is NOT a valid defense of any kind.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Soylent Green on 09 Jun 2014, 06:52
Do non-terrestrial sapient beings deserve to be afforded the same rights as our much talked about breed of hairless monkey that thinks rather highly of itself?

Do they deserve to be afforded the same rights as a hairless monkey in a society that belongs to the hairless monkeys and is created for the benefit of the hairless monkeys?  Not necessarily.

Please explain the terms "human" and "posthuman".

Human: a human being, especially a person as distinguished from an animal or (in science fiction) an alien.
synonyms: person, human being, personage, mortal, member of the human race; man, woman; individual, soul, living soul, being; Homo sapiens; earthling

Posthuman: "According to transhumanist thinkers, a posthuman is a hypothetical future being "whose basic capacities so radically exceed those of present humans as to be no longer unambiguously human by our current standards."

Intersexed individuals are a fairly soft posthuman concept, I will admit, but they do fit some of the criteria.  As a transhumanist, I find the phenomenon to be endlessly intriguing.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: pwhodges on 09 Jun 2014, 06:54
"They're coming to take our jobs!" has been a rallying cry against immigration for as long as I know.

Quote from: Wikipedia
The Luddites were 19th-century English textile artisans who protested against newly developed labour-saving machinery from 1811 to 1817. The stocking frames, spinning frames and power looms introduced during the Industrial Revolution threatened to replace the artisans with less-skilled, low-wage labourers, leaving them without work.

Of course, if you then demand your jobs back, you're taking the jobs from the people who now have them.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Soylent Green on 09 Jun 2014, 06:55
We do not prevent people in this forum having mistaken views; however, attempts to defend views which we consider indefensible are another matter.  There are a number of threads in the Discuss! forum which could help you understand a bit more about human sexuality and gender issues; but until you have studied them, or some equivalent resource, and gained a greater understanding yourself, I advise you to steer well clear of statements of this sort.  You may not be aware that your statement that intersex people are not natural pertains directly to someone with whom you are discussing...

What's wrong with being a posthuman?  It's an amazing transformation that humanity is undergoing!
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: pwhodges on 09 Jun 2014, 06:56
Can you truly say that without a trace of irony?
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Neko_Ali on 09 Jun 2014, 06:57
Even by that description, intersex people do not at all qualify as even 'soft posthuman', which is just a way to try and stretch the term. Intersex people have been a part of the human species as long as medical history stretches back, and probably since we existed as human. You are just trying to find some way to divide and isolate them from what you consider 'normal humans', ie: unambiguously male and female. This is not a true statement. Intersex people are just as normal and natural as anyone else. Society has placed a strong emphasis on conformity though, which demands that they be 'fixed' or hidden. This is a horrible thing, and a way to force people into pre conceived roles and positions, rather than let those pre conceptions be challenged by real life and facts.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: TheBiscuit on 09 Jun 2014, 06:58
I know. I also work in customer service. I've worked in goddamn telesales. I know what an absolute prick Average Joe Customer can be with much less justification than what May has. However it being the norm does not mean the girl deserved it. As she says even within the comic we all need to work to you know, not die of starvation. And the world is in recession.
People you call while doing telesales are not your customers.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: GarandMarine on 09 Jun 2014, 06:58
Do non-terrestrial sapient beings deserve to be afforded the same rights as our much talked about breed of hairless monkey that thinks rather highly of itself?

Do they deserve to be afforded the same rights as a hairless monkey in a society that belongs to the hairless monkeys and is created for the benefit of the hairless monkeys?  Not necessarily.


So in short, you find it acceptable to discriminate against sapient individuals who are different then you are. Why should a sapient xenobiological not be afforded the same rights as a human being? Or a sapient AI for that matter? If a being can think and feel, whether it's circuits are biological as ours are, or electronic is it acceptable to hold it in chains and force it to labor for you?

"They're coming to take our jobs!" has been a rallying cry against immigration for as long as I know.

Quote from: Wikipedia
The Luddites were 19th-century English textile artisans who protested against newly developed labour-saving machinery from 1811 to 1817. The stocking frames, spinning frames and power looms introduced during the Industrial Revolution threatened to replace the artisans with less-skilled, low-wage labourers, leaving them without work.

Of course, if you then demand your jobs back, you're taking the jobs from the people who now have them.

Didn't the Luddites form a religion out of the concept of being too stubborn to advance with the rest of the species?

We do not prevent people in this forum having mistaken views; however, attempts to defend views which we consider indefensible are another matter.  There are a number of threads in the Discuss! forum which could help you understand a bit more about human sexuality and gender issues; but until you have studied them, or some equivalent resource, and gained a greater understanding yourself, I advise you to steer well clear of statements of this sort.  You may not be aware that your statement that intersex people are not natural pertains directly to someone with whom you are discussing...

What's wrong with being a posthuman?  It's an amazing transformation that humanity is undergoing!

Further thought, while I find the concept of transhumanism interesting, intersex people have been around for a long time. Like since recorded history long. So I don't think they really count as being post-human or transhuman for transhumanist thinking for one, and for two the implication that such individuals are not natural human beings can be incredibly offensive to those individuals, especially when that status has been regularly used against them in a legal sense.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Soylent Green on 09 Jun 2014, 07:03
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You are just trying to find some way to divide and isolate them from what you consider 'normal humans', ie: unambiguously male and female.

What's wrong with not being normal?  I am considered different because of my autism but that doesn't make me any less of a human being.  I'm still a biological entity derived from the human race.

Can you truly say that without a trace of irony?

That I like the idea of posthumans?  The fact that I ascribe to the Transhumanist intellectual movement implies it. So, yes, I am capable of saying it without irony.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Neko_Ali on 09 Jun 2014, 07:09
Because when most people say 'not normal' they mean 'less than' or 'not as good as'. Even if you are saying 'better than' that is still a division, and treating people differently because of some arbitrary factor is still a form of bigotry. Saying someone is inherently better than other people because of some aspect of their biology is the same excuse bigots use. The fact that you are using it to apply to a traditional minority group doesn't make it any better.

edit: I would like to clarify here, that I am not trying to engage in personal attacks on anyone. And I do apologize if I am offending anyone. What I am trying to do is challenge these ideas that one group of people is inherently better than another group because of reasons. Every living, thinking, feeling being regardless of origins or configuration should have equal rights, equal opportunities and equal treatment. It's how each person acts as an individual that we should be judged upon.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Soylent Green on 09 Jun 2014, 07:13
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Further thought, while I find the concept of transhumanism interesting, intersex people have been around for a long time. Like since recorded history long.

I actually didn't know that!  When and who was the first recorded case of a true intersex individual?  I'm really interested in reading about it!

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especially when that status has been regularly used against them in a legal sense.

Bah! Small minded people will always try to stifle human advancement. 

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Because when most people say 'not normal' they mean 'less than' or 'not as good as'. Even if you are saying 'better than' that is still a division

That... isn't what I was trying to say.

Still, reading what I said, I can see how it would be rather inflammatory to people.  I still think intersexed individuals present an amazing transformation of what traditional society considers as a normal representation of humanity.   But I digress, I am sorry.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Mr. Doctor on 09 Jun 2014, 07:36
Shopgirl did not deserve that attitude. At all.
She's knowingly complicit in discrimination that is apparently illegal in the QC-verse. That is not an "innocent" position, and the "I was only obeying orders" defence is very flimsy. May aimed her abusive remarks at the employer, not the assistant, and pointing out calmly that she was working for a bigot was accurate and fair; everyone is responsible for their choices. And if a shop assistant told me to my face that the shop had a policy of not hiring Asians, I'd walk out too. Not a cent of my money would they ever see again, and I would do my best to discourage my family, friends, and anyone else I could influence from shopping there.
Even if I agree with you. None of this makes it ok for the girl to receive that attitude.
This is probably me though, but if I'm going to call people on their B.S. or in this case... The B.S. they are related to: I'll gladly do it calmly.
To me, curses and attitude will always stain all the right things you are actually saying.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Jazzmaster on 09 Jun 2014, 07:44
May is no more surly nor belligerent than people can be. Hell, look at any forum or social media page, and you will see instances of rudeness that border on sociopathy.

You mean like a certain "Georgia Peach" in the comic that we all "love"? 

And come to think of it, I work with somebody who is very abrasive, and even threatened me with physical violence ("I'll beat your little skinny ass").  She's still employed here.  I wouldn't want her to be fired, but I've worked with some folks who have a real attitude and it doesn't seem to affect their employment status very much.  They'll get a "talking to" and then we go back to things as normal...them having an attitude with everyone else, including the manager. 

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Do they also not deserve the same rights to employment? They do, but they need to pull their heads out of their asses if they are going to be dealing with people on a daily basis (although, once they're promoted to manager or something...).

Once they're promoted to manager or something...? (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2524)

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On comic: it's the same sort of inflection when people say "I'm not racist/sexist/homophobic etc., but <insert derogatory comment about aforementioned group here>".

On point.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Ben on 09 Jun 2014, 08:36
Some of this is becoming completely incomprehensible. That's what happens in self-defined debates with no fixed points if reference. Facebook managed to generate 56 descriptions of sexual orientation by the same process.

If AIs, immigrants or any other external category are introduced into a situation in which employment and thereby, resources are in finite supply, and demand generally exceeds that supply, then those newcomers will be impacting adversely on SOME group within the original population. That's basic arithmetic.

If those immigrants, AIs or whatever go on to exist within significantly self-defined groupings, be it mosque, Chinatown or anythung else, then integration is not taking place. That's basic demographics.

It doesn't matter that supporters of multi-cultural political correctness insist that this is untrue, because ideology so dictates; the situation remains. The late Robert Heinlein described this as "collective solipsism" which seems to me to be an expressive, if strictly contradictory term.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: GarandMarine on 09 Jun 2014, 08:40
Thread relevant maybe? http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/135126-Can-Machines-Think-Eugene-Passes-Turing-Test
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Northern Light on 09 Jun 2014, 08:50
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The "not a natural person" bit is true though. Even Intersex people aren't regarded as such in some jurisdictions.

That is accurate, as they are not natural people, in the strictest sense.  They are posthuman.

We do not prevent people in this forum having mistaken views; however, attempts to defend views which we consider indefensible are another matter.  There are a number of threads in the Discuss! forum which could help you understand a bit more about human sexuality and gender issues; but until you have studied them, or some equivalent resource, and gained a greater understanding yourself, I advise you to steer well clear of statements of this sort.  You may not be aware that your statement that intersex people are not natural pertains directly to someone with whom you are discussing...

Oh, I see, this is a special clubhouse and dissenting opinions are not allowed. How intelligent of you. I'll show myself out.

On that parting note: ARTIFICIAL Intelligences are NOT people, they do NOT deserve to be treated the same as people, just as there are varying degrees and calibers of human who deserve to be treated differently. The idea of treating every single person equally is, frankly, unnatural, and as little as 50 years ago voicing that opinion would have you labelled a radical. I knew this forum was going to be liberal, but some of you are just plain deluded.  :psyduck: There appear to be a few lit bulbs in here, though. Keep it up.

I'll now take my leave.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Barmymoo on 09 Jun 2014, 08:53
Let me provide some fixed points of reference then.

Transgender people, intersex people, people of any and all skin colours, people with only one leg, people who require a life support machine to remain alive, people with such severe disabilities that they cannot function without 24 hour care, people who like to dress up as rabbits and eat raw carrots, people who believe in one god or no gods or multiple gods, anyone at all deserves to be granted the same rights, respect and dignity as every other person. If you are in doubt about whether someone is human or not, you grant them those rights, respect and dignity anyway just to be safe.

This isn't political correctness. This is the forum rules, and anyone who isn't prepared to abide by them is very welcome to leave before they are banned.

Northern Light, our posts crossed and this was not intended to be a direct response to your post, but by happy coincidence it doesn't need amending as a result of reading what you wrote.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Ben on 09 Jun 2014, 08:53
I don't believe anyone is suggesting that May, or any other AI us not "thinking" within the terms if the Turing Test. However Turing never claimed that a thinking machine was "human" in any sense, and an assertion of that nature would be incomprehensible in tne lexicon of the time.

It's a common problem with modern "relativist" thought, that two plainly incompatible properties or identities are flatly asserted to be equal, and the whole discussion follows  the course of that well-known avian wonder, the Oozlem bird. This is because having begun from a false premise and proceeded in a false direction, denying that things which appear different do so because they ARE different, and that things may be large or small but not both simultaneously, there is no way to progress and a futile, self-driving process of infinite sub-division is inevitable

There is a classic example of this, immediately above. The writer appears to be equating physically disabled persons with persons who enjoy dressing up as rabbits and eating carrots. This is clearly invalid, because one is a physical disability while the other is a deliberate affectation. I see no contradiction in holding that a person physically disabled and requiring specific assistance should be assisted with as much dignity as can be accorded, while someone who dresses as a rabbit for reasons only they can explain, can hardly be surprised if small boys make fun of them in the streets and I see no reason why anyone else should concern themselves. They do, after all, have the option to refrain from doing so, while the amputee or paralytic has no such choice.

Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: St.Clair on 09 Jun 2014, 08:59
The idea of treating every single person equally is, frankly, unnatural, and as little as 50 years ago voicing that opinion would have you labelled a radical.

The fact that this is no longer the case is, to me, an indicator of progress.

Ben:  So, to be clear, would it be your argument that entities which are provably (with the tools available to us) "sapient", but not necessarily "human", should not be accorded the same rights as humans?  That humans are a special category of sapient(s)?
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Ben on 09 Jun 2014, 09:04
Up to a point, Lord Copper. The daily press contains regular and distressing evidence that a major religious and cultural grouping holds no such views.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: St.Clair on 09 Jun 2014, 09:06
(If that was addressed to me - my apologies, but your form of response was unclear)

Up to what point?  And on what basis do you make the distinction, that one sort of sapient is accorded certain rights, privileges and protections, but another sort is not?
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 09 Jun 2014, 09:11
Global Moderator Comment A. We are on private property. Said property belongs to someone committed to equal rights and who should not be put in the position of providing a soapbox for the opposite.B. Real-world politics should only be in Discuss. It is bad for the comics thread.C. Do not mistake a long fuse for approval by moderators. Said long fuse has burned way, way down.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: jwhouk on 09 Jun 2014, 09:15
D. The OP wants to keep his "no thread locked" streak going.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 09 Jun 2014, 09:22
(regular user)
Remember classic science fiction where we were all supposed to be freed from toil by machines? Suppose robots take all the jobs. Tax them and use the money to support humans making music or writing or helping others.

Being carbon-based or silicon-based is not the difference between being alive and being dead.

Charlotte says she's alive. Her life is artificially produced. It's equally real, just as a lab-grown diamond is as real as a mined diamond.

Rights and responsibilities are inseparable. Long ago, Pintsize and Winslow rejected the idea of equal rights for robots because it would have meant taking on responsibility. Momo, in contrast, has stepped up to meet the duties of citizenship. From a conservative point of view, if they're willing to pull their own weight, they should be treated equally.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Thrillho on 09 Jun 2014, 09:31
The idea of going toe to toe with Akima on anything is shitting me up, but fuck it, let's do this thing.

She's knowingly complicit in discrimination that is apparently illegal in the QC-verse. That is not an "innocent" position, and the "I was only obeying orders" defence is very flimsy.

What option does she have? Go out and get another job, when there may not be one available? Report her employer, which will likely lead to him being put in jail and as such her losing her job? We don't know this character's situation. She could be a single mother, she could be supporting an unemployed husband or boyfriend. I'm not saying it's okay to just be following orders, I'm saying we do not know enough about this character's situation (or indeed the economy situation in the QCverse) to judge her in such a way.

I know we'd all like to be able to find out our employers were prejudiced in some way and walk out with our heads held high, but the fact is it just isn't that simple for everybody. I have a co-worker who is horrifyingly racist and homophobic, but somewhat ingeniously manages to bury that under remarks that are usually said only to one person at a time and just near the knuckle enough as to be debatable so that you know he couldn't lose his job over it. Life is not as simple as 'they're a racist, so fuck 'em.' I wish it was.


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May aimed her abusive remarks at the employer, not the assistant

She aimed them at the employer through the assistant. I don't know how many customer service jobs you've had (genuinely don't know, not wanting to seem patronising) but especially if you're new at the job, the customer may well be mad at your employer for any number of things, but they're still pretty much screaming at you, and so the fact that they're not mad at you really isn't very much comfort; at least no in the early days. It is simultaneously a positive and a negative for me that I can shield customer rage behind my professionalism and awareness of who the anger is really aimed at, but when you start out in a job like this it really doesn't help to think 'oh she's just mad at my boss.'

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and pointing out calmly that she was working for a bigot was accurate and fair;

This is a webcomic so we can't actually read tone of voice, but the swear words alone to me do not read as calm.

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everyone is responsible for their choices.

And if the choice is working for a racist until you find another job while still being able to pay rent (particularly in a recession), I'd stick with that choice. Especially if you didn't know it until you already worked there.

Quote
And if a shop assistant told me to my face that the shop had a policy of not hiring Asians, I'd walk out too. Not a cent of my money would they ever see again, and I would do my best to discourage my family, friends, and anyone else I could influence from shopping there.

That is absolutely fair and I would do the same when I'm not even Asian. I'm not arguing with May taking her business elsewhere. I still wouldn't throw swear words at the shopgirl on the way out though.

People you call while doing telesales are not your customers.

Actually they frequently are. One of my telesales jobs was selling large amounts of debt to pre-existing customers, a decision so terrible that a good 50% of my successful sales were cancelled because the customer failed the credit check having already bought such debt before and failed to pay it. NICE.

Quite apart from which, telesales is not the only customer service job I have done, and I work in customer service now which isn't in telesales.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Ben on 09 Jun 2014, 09:35
If the assistant had the least modicum of sense, she would give May an application form and forget the whole issue. May might, or might not be invited to interview, probably abuse or offend the boss and be turned down for cause
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Thrillho on 09 Jun 2014, 09:36
Except if her boss is, as already established, prejudiced against AIs, she might well get yelled at and/or fired for such a thing, ignoring the fact that May already walked out and seemed pretty enthusiastic about not forgetting the issue, and like so many other things, being dumb does not equal 'deserves verbal abuse.'
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: St.Clair on 09 Jun 2014, 09:47
"Anything you do in retail can get you in trouble, including nothing."
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: GarandMarine on 09 Jun 2014, 10:01
I don't believe anyone is suggesting that May, or any other AI us not "thinking" within the terms if the Turing Test. However Turing never claimed that a thinking machine was "human" in any sense, and an assertion of that nature would be incomprehensible in tne lexicon of the time.

I don't think anyone is suggesting a true AI is human. Merely that a sapient being be they from somewhere else or having arisen from the works of man can and should be treated as our equals. Which is an altogether entirely different position.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 09 Jun 2014, 10:11
One of fiction's more thoughtful inquiries into AI rights was the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "The Measure of a Man". It showed both sides, each presented to the limit of the advocate's ability. Recommended.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Mlle Germain on 09 Jun 2014, 10:47
Wow, this thing blew up!
I just came here to say that while I agree with Gareth in that I do not like May's personality and find her mostly annoying as a person (there is no question to me that May is a person), I sincerely congratulate May on her decision to go shop somewhere else - upholding principles like this immediately makes her more likable to me and apart from the swearing, this was precisely the right thing to do!

I don't see how getting a little annoyed at the sales girl as the public representative of the store is wrong either - this was not against her personally, but against her in her position as public representative of the store. May stayed comparatively polite (compared to how we've seen her before, that is), but told the sales person in clear terms why she doesn't want to continue to shop there. And that is what you have to do. If you don't agree with the store's policies, noone is going to take any heed of your criticism if you play nice. The only reason why this sales girl might take the incident to her manager is because of May's clear rejection of the store policy and this is the only way he will reconsider it. (Okay, "scumfucker" was maybe not necessary, but I don't see any problem with the rest.)
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Thrillho on 09 Jun 2014, 10:54
Wow, this thing blew up!
I just came here to say that while I agree with Gareth in that I do not like May's personality and find her mostly annoying as a person (there is no question to me that May is a person), I sincerely congratulate May on her decision to go shop somewhere else - upholding principles like this immediately makes her more likable to me and apart from the swearing, this was precisely the right thing to do!

I don't argue this.

Quote
I don't see how getting a little annoyed at the sales girl as the public representative of the store is wrong either - this was not against her personally, but against her in her position as public representative of the store.

I do argue this, and refer you to:
'She aimed them at the employer through the assistant. I don't know how many customer service jobs you've had (genuinely don't know, not wanting to seem patronising) but especially if you're new at the job, the customer may well be mad at your employer for any number of things, but they're still pretty much screaming at you, and so the fact that they're not mad at you really isn't very much comfort; at least no in the early days. It is simultaneously a positive and a negative for me that I can shield customer rage behind my professionalism and awareness of who the anger is really aimed at, but when you start out in a job like this it really doesn't help to think 'oh she's just mad at my boss.''

Quote
May stayed comparatively polite (compared to how we've seen her before, that is), but told the sales person in clear terms why she doesn't want to continue to shop there. And that is what you have to do. If you don't agree with the store's policies, noone is going to take any heed of your criticism if you play nice. The only reason why this sales girl might take the incident to her manager is because of May's clear rejection of the store policy and this is the only way he will reconsider it. (Okay, "scumfucker" was maybe not necessary, but I don't see any problem with the rest.)

There's a difference between sternness about the store and harshness that the employee will feel is directed at them.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Mlle Germain on 09 Jun 2014, 11:06
Sorry, didn't mean to imply that you disagreed with me about the first part, just thought we should celebrate our kinship representing the minority of people that do not like May as a person on this forum - reading the comid thread, it sometimes looks like such people don't exist.  :-P

I guess we just disagree about how impolite we think May was. I think it was (apart from the two or three swearwords) an appropriate reaction and she stayed surprisingly calm - she didn't actually scream and throw a fit and insisted on discussing it or anything. She had a brief upset, realised it wasn't really the employees fault, collected herself and went away. Overall, handled well.
I feel this is something that the employee is able to handle without being personally hurt so that she can report the serious displeasure of the customer to the manager. May didn't even push the fact that, yes, the employee is actually helping to uphold a shitty policy (although she probably isn't to be blamed for that, because for her it's an economic necessity).
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 09 Jun 2014, 11:20
Notice that May saved all the name-calling for the discriminatory boss and didn't direct it at the clerk.

Do AnthroPCs record things? May has evidence for a lawsuit if so.

I still don't like May as a person but am slowly warming up to her and she was far more right than wrong in this encounter.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Thrillho on 09 Jun 2014, 11:28
Notice that May saved all the name-calling for the discriminatory boss and didn't direct it at the clerk.

*headdesk*
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: celticgeek on 09 Jun 2014, 11:33
"I know that you are not supposed to shoot the messenger, but sometimes the messenger is the only one you can get a good clean shot at."
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 09 Jun 2014, 11:53
May actually said "Yeah, I understand" to the clerk and saved "scumfucker" for the boss.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: mikmaxs on 09 Jun 2014, 12:03
Off the subject of who is and isn't a person, there's a much better reason that someone wouldn't want to hire AIs in this universe:
Have you freakin' seen them? A giant percentage of the robots, AIs, and anthro-PCs we've seen would make terrible employees.
Just off the top of my head, here's all the AI beings I can think of, some of whom I can't recall the names of:
Pintsize
Momo
Winslow (It's been a while since we've seen Winslow, huh?)
May
That Neck-beard, hipster guy
Pintsize's Posse of PCs. (We've seen about a dozen re-skinned versions of him, all in all.)
Sattelite AI (From Hannelore's Dad's ship)
That terrifying spider thing from when Marten bought Pintsize
The Vespa Combat robot with lasers who worked with the Vespavenger
Deathbot 9000, whom Pintsize taunted on message boards
The two robots who worked at the chassis store


Now let's examine their character traits as far as redeeming and negative personality traits go:
Pintsize: Good: Friendly, supportive of Martin. Bad: Misogynistic, creepy, arsonist, sexual offender, vandal, pervert, insensitive, drug addict (Or at least, ROM addict), generally gross, repeatedly damages his own hard drive and chassis by trying to eat food.
Momo: Good: Really nice, helpful, socially adept and gives good advice. Bad: Not much here.
Winslow: Good: Friendly? I haven't read a comic with him in a while, but he always seemed a little bland to me... He definitely did nothing to stop Pintsize most of the time, even on some of his really bad ideas.
May: Good: Assertive, has at least some knowledge of social cues, tries to help. Bad: Convicted felon who tried to steal a fighter jet, aggressive, verbally abusive, vulgar
Neck-Beard Hipster Guy: Good: Um... Bad: Rude, inconsiderate, almost got Pintsize killed as part of a joke...
Pintsize's Friends: (These guys are a little less intense, but all seemed pretty similar to Pintsize. Misogynistic, rude, addicts, vandals.)
Satellite AI: Good: Friendly, very supportive, a really nice guy. Bad: Despite the fact that he should be one of the most competent AIs in the world, he accidentally burned out a ton of his circuits while trying to calculate an impossible math equation. After getting drunk.
Terrifying Spider Thing: (We didn't see much of him, but he didn't seem to pick up on any social cues, or realize that he was freaking the heck out of Martin.)
Vespa Robot and the Deathbot 9000: Yes, they were both designed for battle, but they had practically no value of human life and were almost definitely both murderers. (Or at least attempted murderers.)
The Chassis Store Robots: Once again, friendly, but we didn't see much of them so I can't give much of an opinion.
Toaster Bot: Makes toast FUN!


From this cross section, assuming that it stays consistent throughout most AIs, it seems like a giant chunk of the Anthro-PCs in the world are incompetent, inconsiderate, or generally creepy. I won't take off too many points for Pintsize's friends being creeps because his friends would presumably be similar to him, but even if they aren't taken into account a big chunk of the AI beings in this world would make terrible employees. They might make good friends, (At least some of them,) but they'd make terrible workers.



This is completely unrelated, but has anyone else noticed that Momo seems to be acting like a lot less of a Chibi-Anime girl since she got her new chassis? Her personality should be the same, but she hasn't really done anything remotely anime-ish since she got an upgrade.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Thrillho on 09 Jun 2014, 12:17
That's a well thought-out and written post.

But there are also large amounts of humans who are giant douchenozzle fucktwats as well. That's what a job interview is for.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Aahz on 09 Jun 2014, 12:23
Do non-terrestrial sapient beings deserve to be afforded the same rights as our much talked about breed of hairless monkey that thinks rather highly of itself?

Do they deserve to be afforded the same rights as a hairless monkey in a society that belongs to the hairless monkeys and is created for the benefit of the hairless monkeys?  Not necessarily.

Please explain the terms "human" and "posthuman".


Intersexed individuals are a fairly soft posthuman concept, I will admit, but they do fit some of the criteria.  As a transhumanist, I find the phenomenon to be endlessly intriguing.

Mr Green, I think you should lurk more here and do some reading regarding of views in transhumanist thought. The positions you've been stating seem very anathema to me; and I've been studying the concept for many years.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Rghfrgl on 09 Jun 2014, 12:51
Racist boss. Robots yelling at you. Should have never given up that CoD job Sara.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Aziraphale on 09 Jun 2014, 12:53
That's a well thought-out and written post.

But there are also large amounts of humans who are giant douchenozzle fucktwats as well. That's what a job interview is for.

Not that it necessarily matters. I worked entirely too long in retail and customer service, part of that in management. I've seen plenty of people who impressed everyone in the interview and went on to be awful employees; I've also had a few who, off the clock or in the break room, were total assholes but who were professional where and when it counted.

May strikes me as someone who'd need some very clear and strong boundaries set, but who doesn't seem to have any of her own.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: cesium133 on 09 Jun 2014, 13:03
Racist boss. Robots yelling at you. Should have never given up that CoD job Sara.
She works at the Gap on the corner of Allosaurus' Stomach Ave. and Allosaurus' Esophagus Street.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Barmymoo on 09 Jun 2014, 13:12
Haha that's such a good point, that could easily be Sarah!
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: mikmaxs on 09 Jun 2014, 13:25
That's a well thought-out and written post.

But there are also large amounts of humans who are giant douchenozzle fucktwats as well. That's what a job interview is for.
Fair enough, but if you do a cross-section of the humans in QC, you have nowhere near the percentage of violent, criminal, perverted incompetents. Faye is probably the only 'Mean' person on the main cast, and not only is she nowhere near the terrible person that Pintsize is, but she saw her father kill himself. Kind of a totally valid reason to be screwed up. Unless there was a storyline I missed, none of the AnthroPCs have any reason in their history for being so creepy and awful.

The human characters have problems and issues, but unlike the AnthroPCs they all generally seem competent, non-violent, and they don't tend to sexually harass each other on a daily basis or steal fighter jets.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Method of Madness on 09 Jun 2014, 13:39
Sarah!
Sara :roll:

(I'm engaged to a Sarah, the h or lack thereof matters :mrgreen:)
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Pilchard123 on 09 Jun 2014, 14:28
She does also have blue eyes. Could be. Probably isn't. Kinda hope it is.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Method of Madness on 09 Jun 2014, 14:29
Hey, we don't know for sure either way :roll:
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 09 Jun 2014, 15:59
It is an easy habit of thought to generalize based on ethnicity, but it's a habit that leads to errors and injustices. After interviewing and rejecting Pintsize, it would be a fallacy not to hire Momo, or to hire Faye in her place because you think "humans are politer".

No generalization should influence the hiring process.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: CaptainFish on 09 Jun 2014, 16:46
In terms of the exchange, I'm honestly happy with how both parties dealt with this situation. The clerk didn't lie and give May a false hope of getting a job after establishing some rapport with an employee and May showed the clerk that her employer's behaviour is both illegal and hurtful. I would hope that the clerk ditches her defense of her employer's partial discrimination, because it bleeds of onto her to the degree that it would be possible to think she's bigoted as well.

As for unneeded employee abuse maybe it wasn't deserved, but if I had presented the same questions and heard the response "we tend not to hire blacks" I'd have a pretty intense reaction for the person of the "we" I'm addressing as well. That's not an okay sentence to say. If she's not complicit with the discriminatory hiring practices she needs to use precise language to distance herself from it (just say "My boss tends..."). It's pretty obvious she doesn't think it's a big deal if she'd use the word we for a sentence like that anyway. Also the idea that you can discriminate but it's okay because it doesn't stem from hate is just perplexing.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Kugai on 09 Jun 2014, 16:59


Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Method of Madness on 09 Jun 2014, 17:06
I really, really should watch TNG. Holy crap, that was amazing. (I know it can't all be that good, but wow)
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 09 Jun 2014, 17:08
If AIs, immigrants or any other external category are introduced into a situation in which employment and thereby, resources are in finite supply, and demand generally exceeds that supply, then those newcomers will be impacting adversely on SOME group within the original population. That's basic arithmetic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Method of Madness on 09 Jun 2014, 17:14
If AIs, immigrants or any other external category are introduced into a situation in which employment and thereby, resources are in finite supply, and demand generally exceeds that supply, then those newcomers will be impacting adversely on SOME group within the original population. That's basic arithmetic.
Even if that wasn't a fallacy as Cold pointed out...so? Who is to say that the people who were there first deserve that job any more than the people who come later?
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: cesariojpn on 09 Jun 2014, 17:31
Quote
That lady ended up looking more like Raven than I intended. Whoops!

Actually, I thought Tai recolored her hair and got contacts and May was trying to see if she could get a job at the SMIF Library when it was loading up.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 09 Jun 2014, 17:51
<snip>
The idea of treating every single person equally is, frankly, unnatural, and as little as 50 years ago voicing that opinion would have you labelled a radical.
<snip>
I'll now take my leave.

Global Moderator Comment Equal rights is a core value here. Northern Light said that would be their last post. It is.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: SuctionCup Caper Two on 09 Jun 2014, 18:02
I really, really should watch TNG. Holy crap, that was amazing. (I know it can't all be that good, but wow)

No but gems like this redeem some of the less-good moments.    It's worth sitting down and watching a few episodes here and there.
 
Star Trek was not meant to be a sci-fi ACTION shoot-em-up series.  It was intended to tell stories and provide commentary on social issues.    However... Well...  That's another thread entirely.   
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Aziraphale on 09 Jun 2014, 18:06
She does also have blue eyes. Could be. Probably isn't. Kinda hope it is.

I thought it was pretty much canon that Sara was eaten by an allosaurus? It could, on the other hand, be Pizza Girl. Like Dale, she may work multiple jobs.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Method of Madness on 09 Jun 2014, 18:07
It was never said within the comic, so nope, not canon. We also don't know who Pizza Girl is. We also don't know if Penelope was telling the truth, so the jury's still out on it being her.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: jwhouk on 09 Jun 2014, 18:40
Wow. So much Story. So wow. What next?

Mom's New Apartment.    5 (12.2%)
May's Employment Attempts.    20 (48.8%)
Relationship Issues (take your pick as to whom)    1 (2.4%)
Hanners and her HAAAAAAATTT!!!!    5 (12.2%)
The Band!    1 (2.4%)  <== P.S.: Jeph's put out the stretch goal comic book!
Harriet officially joins the cast (with her pet bird YB)    3 (7.3%)
Insert Meme Here (space ham, space tea, waffles, etc.)    3 (7.3%)
Something completely different.    3 (7.3%)

Total Members Voted: 41
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: mustang6172 on 09 Jun 2014, 18:51
Damn it!  How did someone post those Star Trek videos before me?

Someone should really get around to starting a Star Trek thread.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 09 Jun 2014, 19:42
I'm sorry that Blondie was interrupted. Her boss might have valid reasons for not wanting to hire robots. There is a reason they keep Charlotte back by the toasters. (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1998)

Obviously some entities will be more deserving of civil rights than others. But soon you start hearing things like "useless mouths" and "life unworthy of life". So it's best that having those rights is the default condition. Lest someone decide YOU are among the undeserving.

On a more cheerful note, I'm happy to see more about the place of AIs in the QC universe. Gary bless!
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Neko_Ali on 09 Jun 2014, 19:50
Obviously some entities will be more deserving of civil rights than others.

Highlighting and pointing this out to say NO. This is not in any way a good statement. You did go on to condemn, at least in part, what you said. But this is nothing worthy in that statement. It is the basis and core of all discrimination and bigotry. The feeling or thought that some people are better, more deserving than others of basic rights. That simple thought is the basis of so much hate, so much pain, even so much death in this world that it needs to be expunged. Everyone lives. Everyone feels. Everyone deserves the same civil rights as anyone else.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Spitfire on 09 Jun 2014, 19:50
This comic is starting to remind me of O Human Star in the sense of social acceptance of robots/androids being comparable to transgender people. I'm not sure if the comparison is intentional here, but I like it. :D
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: mustang6172 on 09 Jun 2014, 20:00
Transgender people were not created in a laboratory.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Neko_Ali on 09 Jun 2014, 20:01
A transgender robot was though. In part at least... In body. The mind belonged to someone else.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: jwhouk on 09 Jun 2014, 20:05
I'm thinking PR was making an oblique Animal Farm reference.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: hedgie on 09 Jun 2014, 20:19


Equal rights is a core value here. Northern Light said that would be their last post. It is.

Good.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 09 Jun 2014, 20:48
Her boss might have valid reasons for not wanting to hire robots.

Her boss might have had bad experiences with robots.

That's not a valid reason to refuse to take applications from them. Otherwise nobody would ever hire humans, since damn near everyone has had bad experiences with them.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: GarandMarine on 09 Jun 2014, 20:59
The Measure of a Man is one of the top TNG episodes. Once you let Patrick Stewart get his monologue going on you get the fuck out of the way.

"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied – chains us all, irrevocably."
                                     - Captain Jean Luc Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie, "The Drumhead" TNG S4E21
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Mad Cat on 09 Jun 2014, 21:40
I've come to a conclusion about May.

It has nothing to do with her poor impulse control. It has nothing to do with her criminal tendencies. It has nothing to do with her desire to become a jet fighter.

May's an asshole.

May's a bitch. May's a curmudgeon; a grump; a sour puss. May's the supreme pessimist. When bad things happen to her, she gets bitter. When good things happen to her, she gets bitter. The later, I think is because she expected bad things to happen, and when they didn't, it violated her sense of expectation. There's literally nothing in the entire universe that can make May happy. Even if everyone in society conveyed unto May the title of Bitch Queen of the Known Universe and catered to her every… impulse… she would still find things in her new power base to complain about and be dissatisfied with.

May's the type of people I assiduously avoid in the real world, so I do not think I will ever find it within myself to like her in QC, much like I will always hate Ruth Lessik in David Willis's Dumbing of Age. She's miserable, and actually enjoys wallowing in her own misery and actively seeks out more things with which to make herself miserable.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Aziraphale on 09 Jun 2014, 21:44
The Measure of a Man is one of the top TNG episodes. Once you let Patrick Stewart get his monologue going on you get the fuck out of the way.

"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied – chains us all, irrevocably."
                                     - Captain Jean Luc Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie, "The Drumhead" TNG S4E21

He doesn't even need a monologue.

"There... are... FOUR... lights!"
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: hedgie on 09 Jun 2014, 22:00
The Measure of a Man is one of the top TNG episodes. Once you let Patrick Stewart get his monologue going on you get the fuck out of the way.
His episodes are really the best.  The rest of the (regular) actors on that show couldn't hold a candle to him.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: foolsguinea on 09 Jun 2014, 22:59
Who else noticed that the counter girl in Tuesday's strip looked like Raven, before Jeph mentioned it?

It's Raven's sister! OK, not reallly.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: ankhtahr on 09 Jun 2014, 23:00
Yes, the Picard episodes are the best, there is no episode greater or more tragic than "The Inner Light" in my opinion, but I still love the heck out of the whole series. I had watched many episodes before I sat down to watch them in order (both my parents are trekkies, my mother more than my father) and when I started watching a few concurrent episodes I at first thought it was a selection of best episodes. No, the series is just that good. Once you get past the first season though. Before it felt too much like they were trying to keep the spirit of TOS, afterwards they found their own style.


To return back to this topic here, I think most things were already said. What I still feel the need to mention is that, no matter how much we value free speech and the freedom of opinion, I don't think one should have to tolerate speech or opinions which discriminate others, and thus are going directly against their freedoms. I don't see why one should have to tolerate this, and not create a safe space. A safe space for people who are discriminated against elsewhere. I don't see why a place shouldn't be better than others.

I see this forum as such a safe space. I'd like it to stay one.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Aahz on 09 Jun 2014, 23:07
Obviously some entities will be more deserving of civil rights than others.

Highlighting and pointing this out to say NO. This is not in any way a good statement. You did go on to condemn, at least in part, what you said. But this is nothing worthy in that statement. It is the basis and core of all discrimination and bigotry. The feeling or thought that some people are better, more deserving than others of basic rights. That simple thought is the basis of so much hate, so much pain, even so much death in this world that it needs to be expunged. Everyone lives. Everyone feels. Everyone deserves the same civil rights as anyone else.

I agree. If your statment semantically boils down to "But your suffering brings my life *meaning*" then you can rest assured it's pretty darn evil.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: hedgie on 09 Jun 2014, 23:34
To return back to this topic here, I think most things were already said. What I still feel the need to mention is that, no matter how much we value free speech and the freedom of opinion, I don't think one should have to tolerate speech or opinions which discriminate others, and thus are going directly against their freedoms. I don't see why one should have to tolerate this, and not create a safe space. A safe space for people who are discriminated against elsewhere. I don't see why a place shouldn't be better than others.

I see this forum as such a safe space. I'd like it to stay one.
More than that, it is OT for the comic sub-forum.  Maybe Discuss would be the place for whether or not AIs or ETs (as brought-up by GM) should be treated as people.  This is a different place, and focused on QC canon.  In canon, AIs are legal persons, and have all the rights and responsibilities associated with that (which is probably why Pintsize hasn't done anything horribly illegal for some time).  Just jumping into the discussion and saying that "AIs have no rights" here is *extremely* OT…  Well, that, and those posts look like something that Nick Griffin would have posted.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 09 Jun 2014, 23:47
It's interesting though to notice how hard QC society, and even the AnthroPCs themselves, had to work to accept the idea of equal rights. http://questionablecontent.wikia.com/wiki/AnthroPC#Civil_Rights_of_AnthroPCs .

It is still a work in progress (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2201).
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: sitnspin on 10 Jun 2014, 00:04
May might be an asshole but she is also a member of a marginalized social class, something I can identify with across multiple spectra. Her anger and hostility in this circumstance is entirely understandable and to dismiss the frustration of marginalized people as simply being miserable for the sake of being miserable is taking part in that marginalization. She and other marginalized people have legitimate cause for misery and frustration.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Rghfrgl on 10 Jun 2014, 00:27
So if Monday's Sara and Tuesday is Raven, maybe Wednesday's clerk will be Gabby.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: KOK on 10 Jun 2014, 00:37
For the record. "Just following orders" is not a flimsy defense. Per all precedents in military and civilian law it is NOT a valid defense of any kind.

If the clerk was following orders, her boss is an idiot. From the boss' point of view, the right thing for the clerk to do is to accept the application, which the boss will then reject. By informing May what is really going on, the clerk has given her the opportunity to do something about it. She has already refused to buy anything, and will most likely urge her friends to avoid this place.

I do not see that the clerk has done anything wrong. She has done May a favor.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: ZoeB on 10 Jun 2014, 00:51
Quote
The "not a natural person" bit is true though. Even Intersex people aren't regarded as such in some jurisdictions.

That is accurate, as they are not natural people, in the strictest sense.  They are posthuman.

You may not be aware that your statement that intersex people are not natural pertains directly to someone with whom you are discussing...

I hope you don't mind me bursting out laughing... I know this is a serious conversation, but sometimes situations are so inherently hilarious....
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: ZoeB on 10 Jun 2014, 00:56
Honestly, I am finding it fairly intimidating trying to explain my thoughts.
Sorry, I'll try not to intimidate you.

Quote
I am not a particularly intelligent individual, so I doubt I could properly voice the reasoning behind my opinions.
Horse puckey. Even a superficial analysis of your vocabulary and grammatical structure shows you have to be above average in both intellect and communication.

Give it a go.

It's why I'm interested in your views, and how you came to those conclusions. I'm trying to understand.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Tova on 10 Jun 2014, 01:49
When bad things happen to her, she gets bitter. When good things happen to her, she gets bitter.

I think you're jumping to conclusions, there.

http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2515

It has nothing to do with her poor impulse control. It has nothing to do with her criminal tendencies. It has nothing to do with her desire to become a jet fighter.

May's an asshole.

"Poor impulse control" and "criminal tendencies" may or may not be accurate, but at least they are attempts at character descriptions/analysis, whereas "asshole" is nothing more than a value judgement.

The phrase that pops into my mind is "anger management issues."
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: ZoeB on 10 Jun 2014, 01:56
Quote
Further thought, while I find the concept of transhumanism interesting, intersex people have been around for a long time. Like since recorded history long.

I actually didn't know that!  When and who was the first recorded case of a true intersex individual?  I'm really interested in reading about it!

This deserves its own thread in the DISCUSS section if it's to go much further... but the basics are simple. Intersex is a possibility in any sexed species. You find it in all mammals, for example. Birds too. Reptiles. Fish.

Quote
While chapter 6 focuses on the crimes and punishments of parricides, tyrants, renegade slaves, and corrupt emperors, Celia Schultz, “On the burial of unchaste Vestal Virgins,” pp.122-135, investigates the methods of handling ritual impurity within the priesthood of Vesta for the Vestal Virgins themselves. While ritual murder, broadly defined, was not unfamiliar to the Romans (it occurred twenty times between 230 and 80 B.C.E., p. 135) with many similarities between the methods for hermaphrodites, convicted Vestals, and for pairs of Gauls and Greeks, the three types of ritual murder did not serve a single purpose. In the case of hermaphroditic children and Vestals, their removal needed to be bloodless and permanent, so as not to taint the Roman state as a whole.
Review of Mark Bradley (ed.), Rome, Pollution, and Propriety: Dirt, Disease, and Hygiene in the Eternal City from Antiquity to Modernity. British School at Rome studies.   Cambridge; New York:  Cambridge University Press, 2012.  Pp. xx, 320.  ISBN 9781107014435.

Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: ZoeB on 10 Jun 2014, 02:04
May is Momo's Evil Twin. Well, not so much Evil as Assertive and Impulsive. Not as obnoxious as she was.. one can hope that continues.
Momo could learn a little from her. May could learn a thousand times more from Momo.

Heaven help anyone who really got Momo riled. She has the same feelings, but is a nicer person. She keeps those feelings safely bottled up, for transmutation into kindness over time. May just lets them go before they're ripe.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Mad Cat on 10 Jun 2014, 04:18
I think you're jumping to conclusions, there.

http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2515
DoA's Ruthless can have episodes intended to show her softer, emotionally vulnerable side as well. Doesn't endear her to me in any way. Her core personality traits remain unchanged. In the immediately past two strips, we have May reacting in the exact same profane and angry way to diametricly opposite news. Her core personality traits remain unchanged.
"Poor impulse control" and "criminal tendencies" may or may not be accurate, but at least they are attempts at character descriptions/analysis, whereas "asshole" is nothing more than a value judgement.

The phrase that pops into my mind is "anger management issues."
They're not my character descriptors/analysis. They're the author's objectively true facts. http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2502 The asshole part was just my personal executive summary of her character to date.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: 94ssd on 10 Jun 2014, 04:26
I was so excited for the return of Raven until I read the caption.

DAMN YOU WILLIS JACQUES
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Method of Madness on 10 Jun 2014, 04:36
Quote from: Jeph
That lady ended up looking more like Raven than I intended. Whoops!
Bwahaha, she looks less like Raven than yesterday's clerk looked like Sara, and he didn't say whoops then. MAYBE THAT MEANS SOMETHING.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Barmymoo on 10 Jun 2014, 05:04
People who are condemning May, try to keep in mind that she is someone who ended up in jail. Now that was a result of her poor impulse control, sure, but it's not a nice place. It is hardly surprising that she has come out feeling bitter and angry.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: GarandMarine on 10 Jun 2014, 05:12
I swear about as much as May does, so I suppose I don't view her behavior as negatively as some of you seem to....
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Thrillho on 10 Jun 2014, 05:31
I also swear a lot in casual conversation, but again, we couldn't hear her tone of voice, and I would also temper that depending on who I speak to.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Mad Cat on 10 Jun 2014, 06:40
People who are condemning May, try to keep in mind that she is someone who ended up in jail. Now that was a result of her poor impulse control, sure, but it's not a nice place. It is hardly surprising that she has come out feeling bitter and angry.
I've been in jail. I'm still fighting the BS charges. I'm bitter and angry. Difference between me and May (aside from fictional/real, carbon-based/silicon-based) is I don't take it out on anonymous individuals around me who have nothing to do with my short stint in the pokey.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: jwhouk on 10 Jun 2014, 07:05
I've been in jail for the last 21 years.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: GarandMarine on 10 Jun 2014, 07:10
He "works" there
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Barmymoo on 10 Jun 2014, 07:30
Mad Cat, I'm not trying to say that May's behaviour is acceptable - simply that it's not very surprising that she's angry and bitter. Even apart from the prison, though, she has just been told to her face that she will not be able to get a particular job because of who she is. Frankly I think the shop assistant is complicit in the discrimination by not recognising it as stemming from hate, although I do see her point about losing her job. It is shitty that in the US, people can be fired for disagreeing with their boss's biogtry.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: hedgie on 10 Jun 2014, 08:19
In the US, people can be fired for no reason at all.  If not hiring or firing stems from any sort of bigotry, you're fucked, unless you can afford to take them to court and win.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: GarandMarine on 10 Jun 2014, 08:31
At will labor laws.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Barmymoo on 10 Jun 2014, 08:39
Yup, that's the phrase I was looking for.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Thrillho on 10 Jun 2014, 08:48
How the fuck is that the way your laws work? You can just fire anyone for no reason? That's insanity.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Barmymoo on 10 Jun 2014, 09:02
FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM!
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 10 Jun 2014, 09:27
Heaven help anyone who really got Momo riled.

She acts quickly when treated like an artifact who doesn't have personal space. Clinton ended up on the pavement seconds after meeting her.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: St.Clair on 10 Jun 2014, 10:01
FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM!

That, and a labor oversupply which is only going to intensify as more jobs are eliminated through automation and outsourcing.
And yet, people are still expected to (find) work.  On whatever terms the employer sees fit to impose.  (Limited, in theory, by law; but as seen here, given the choice between losing one's job and/or bringing an expensive lawsuit for compensation, or (for example) working a few extra hours of "unpaid overtime", guess what many people will pick?)
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: GarandMarine on 10 Jun 2014, 10:17
I prefer it personally as an employer. Being able to terminate dirt bags quickly and efficiently is a boon for me and saves me a drawn out termination process. Albeit I'm a fair boss in the scheme of it.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: pwhodges on 10 Jun 2014, 11:34
a labor oversupply which is only going to intensify as more jobs are eliminated through automation and outsourcing.

Outsourcing is moving jobs from one person to another rather than simply eliminating them.  But otherwise, what's new?  The industrial revolution did for loads of jobs, both craft (spinning) and labour (agriculture), while creating some that were almost inhuman (mining).  The invention of the typewriter did for the whole class of clerks.  Etc, etc.  We could go back to subsistence, I suppose, and be fully occupied staying alive (and having no Internet or central heating).  But anyway, there will always be adjustments going on, and a healthy economy is the best way to ensure enough jobs.  However, in a world where growth is limited, we may have to change the conventional definition of a healthy economy...
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: DSL on 10 Jun 2014, 12:10
How the fuck is that the way your laws work? You can just fire anyone for no reason? That's insanity.

In the more enlightened and sophisticated workplaces, the preferred procedure is to make the employee in question so miserable he or she quits.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: GarandMarine on 10 Jun 2014, 13:16
a labor oversupply which is only going to intensify as more jobs are eliminated through automation and outsourcing.

Outsourcing is moving jobs from one person to another rather than simply eliminating them.  But otherwise, what's new?  The industrial revolution did for loads of jobs, both craft (spinning) and labour (agriculture), while creating some that were almost inhuman (mining).  The invention of the typewriter did for the whole class of clerks.  Etc, etc.  We could go back to subsistence, I suppose, and be fully occupied staying alive (and having no Internet or central heating).  But anyway, there will always be adjustments going on, and a healthy economy is the best way to ensure enough jobs.  However, in a world where growth is limited, we may have to change the conventional definition of a healthy economy...

Rather we'll have to change the definition of productive labor.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: pwhodges on 10 Jun 2014, 13:29
That may well be one aspect of it, certainly.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: cesariojpn on 10 Jun 2014, 14:31
So if Monday's Sara and Tuesday is Raven, maybe Wednesday's clerk will be Gabby.

Natasha or some male character we haven't seen in a bit.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: FunkyTuba on 10 Jun 2014, 14:43
Honestly, I am finding it fairly intimidating trying to explain my thoughts.  I am not a particularly intelligent individual, so I doubt I could properly voice the reasoning behind my opinions.  If that means that my views are worthless then I am sorry that I posted them.  I don't really want to be a bother, I just wanted to voice my feelings on the topic presented.

At first it seemed like you were basically just trolling. I think this caused you to receive a stronger negative reaction than you expected.

Now that we've determined that you're (probably, in my opinion) not just trolling but instead are trying to articulating a sincerely held set of opinions, it's an opportunity for fuller understanding on all sides.

As far as intimidation goes, there indeed are a lot of smart people on this forum. They hold strong principles forged in the heat of life-changing and sometimes drastic personal experience. Allow me to suggest to you that testing out your reasoning against such a gauntlet might be a way to hone your beliefs and drop that which might not be worth keeping.

The suggestion to lurk a bit is probably also a good one, if only to get a feel for the ebb and flow of conversation here and how to engage in it. Please keep posting.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: FunkyTuba on 10 Jun 2014, 14:45
In the more enlightened and sophisticated workplaces, the preferred procedure is to make the employee in question so miserable he or she quits.
You forgot the "targeted RIF" (Reduction In Force):
"sorry, we've eliminated 10% of the positions in the company and yours was one of the 10%"
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Kugai on 10 Jun 2014, 15:56
They call it Redundancy here.

And I've been through it once, quit once (health reasons - the job was soul destroying and I got out before I found myself in a rubber room), been sacked once (but i was young, dumb and stupid back then) and, more recently, lost the job I had due to the boss fucking up the business and it going under.

May is a Mugwump.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: celticgeek on 10 Jun 2014, 16:03
Ah, yes, The Lay Off (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=626).
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Zebediah on 10 Jun 2014, 16:40
In the more enlightened and sophisticated workplaces, the preferred procedure is to make the employee in question so miserable he or she quits.

Had that done to me a couple of times. Wound up with better jobs and better pay both times.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: hedgie on 10 Jun 2014, 17:37

In the more enlightened and sophisticated workplaces, the preferred procedure is to make the employee in question so miserable he or she quits.

Of course.  That way you don't have to pay unemployment benefits.  I "love" the trick some employers pull where they reduce your hours to zero, or at least close to it, but don't officially fire you in order to get around their legal obligations.  Fuck, I think that half the regulations and laws we have (and in some places, I think that *more* are needed, especially WRT employee termination) are simply because of sociopaths trying to skirt both the law and morality.  I know that out of my past jobs, only two employers didn't fight me on overtime pay, or otherwise commit violations of state labour laws.  I just never had the kinda money needed to sue any of those fuckers for everything they had.  I think it's high time for it to stop being a civil matter and start being a criminal one with *huge* penalties that are awarded to the wronged employee.

Edit:  More to the topic, AIs in the QC 'verse probably face even worse even when they *do* get hired.  They don't need to eat, or rest after all, and probably get exploited all the time on OT hours, since they won't fall victim to fatigue and make potentially dangerous mistakes.  Momo seems to have landed a pretty good gig at the library, since Tai is respectful of not only her, but her other minions as people, and she gets to go out like any other person would.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: celticgeek on 10 Jun 2014, 18:39
Darn!  I wanted it to be a snake. 

On the other hand, Marten now has a pet (or another pet depending on your view of Pintsize).
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: hedgie on 10 Jun 2014, 19:43
Froglord approves.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Rimwolf on 10 Jun 2014, 19:46
What a sweet kid!
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Neko_Ali on 10 Jun 2014, 19:55
Cute Sam is being cute. :)
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Spiritz on 10 Jun 2014, 19:56
Awww... I want a friendship frog...
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Aziraphale on 10 Jun 2014, 20:06
For some reason, I picture her voice as a cross between Marcie and Peppermint Patty.

Of course, speculation on characters' voices could probably take up a thread all on its own...
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Zwammy on 10 Jun 2014, 20:23
Of course, speculation on characters' voices could probably take up a thread all on its own...


There is one for Momo (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php?topic=27499.0) at this point.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: judemorrigan on 10 Jun 2014, 20:23
Sam's a sweet kid.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: cesium133 on 10 Jun 2014, 20:29
Of course, speculation on characters' voices could probably take up a thread all on its own...
For some reason I picture Marten's dad as having Patrick Stewart's voice. I have no clue why.  :psyduck:
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Method of Madness on 10 Jun 2014, 20:45
They have no voice at all to me, and I'm really not sure why.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Aziraphale on 10 Jun 2014, 21:18
They have no voice at all to me, and I'm really not sure why.

I'm that way with some of them. There are also a few whose appearance and demeanor reminds me of people I know, but those wouldn't make sense to anyone else who didn't know those people, or at least how they sounded.

Come to think of it, one of the things I dislike is when I see a movie of a book I've read and nobody sounds like they did to my mind's ear.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Method of Madness on 10 Jun 2014, 21:20
It's weird...I don't think I have a mind's ear. I started reading the A Song of Ice and Fire books after I watched the show, so I guess when I was reading those I heard those voices. If I ever read the Harry Potter books again though, I'll probably hear them all as Stephen Fry as opposed to any of the movie characters since I spent so much time at work recently listening to most of the Harry Potter audiobooks.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Aziraphale on 10 Jun 2014, 21:21
Of course, speculation on characters' voices could probably take up a thread all on its own...
For some reason I picture Marten's dad as having Patrick Stewart's voice. I have no clue why.  :psyduck:

I'd have pictured something closer to Anderson Cooper, but that could also be partly because of his appearance.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Aziraphale on 10 Jun 2014, 21:23
It's weird...I don't think I have a mind's ear. I started reading the A Song of Ice and Fire books after I watched the show, so I guess when I was reading those I heard those voices. If I ever read the Harry Potter books again though, I'll probably hear them all as Stephen Fry as opposed to any of the movie characters since I spent so much time at work recently listening to most of the Harry Potter audiobooks.

It doesn't happen with everything for me, but there are times that I have a very definite idea of what someone sounds like. Not sure why that is... and for some reason, I find it more jarring than when a character doesn't look how I expected.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 10 Jun 2014, 21:26
I seem to have stepped on some tails with my remark that some are more deserving of rights than others. Who is 'deserving' may be obvious to you, but not someone else. Which is why the subject is a touchy one.

So what is a "right" anyway? When someone says, "I have the right to xyz", he is saying "This is the way I want the world to work, and I expect all right thinking people to agree".

Rights are not bestowed automatically. They must be safeguarded and fought for.

So who should have what rights? Society decides. For instance, we seem to agree that felons should not be able to vote or carry guns. Does this work out for the best? Not always. We can only do our best to cope with an imperfect world.

Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Method of Madness on 10 Jun 2014, 21:27
Rights are not bestowed automatically.
Yes, they are. THAT IS WHAT MAKES THEM RIGHTS. It's also why everyone has them, even if they are too often not recognized or acknowledged.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Aziraphale on 10 Jun 2014, 21:43
I seem to have stepped on some tails with my remark that some are more deserving of rights than others. Who is 'deserving' may be obvious to you, but not someone else. Which is why the subject is a touchy one.

So what is a "right" anyway? When someone says, "I have the right to xyz", he is saying "This is the way I want the world to work, and I expect all right thinking people to agree".

Rights are not bestowed automatically. They must be safeguarded and fought for.

So who should have what rights? Society decides. For instance, we seem to agree that felons should not be able to vote or carry guns. Does this work out for the best? Not always. We can only do our best to cope with an imperfect world.

On what basis, pray tell, do you propose to decide who among us -- whether sentient beings in a different container (as in the case of AIs in the QC-verse), or sentient beings whose race, gender expression, sexuality, et cetera, you may find disagreeable here in the real world -- deserve their rights?

And while we're at it, let's take up your other assertion: "So what is a "right" anyway? When someone says, 'I have the right to xyz', he is saying "This is the way I want the world to work, and I expect all right thinking people to agree'"

We expect -- rightly so, I think -- that rights should be "enforced" more or less equally. What you seem to be suggesting, in contrast, seems very close to asserting that certain groups asking for the same rights that several of us already enjoy are asking for "special rights." If I ask for the right to catapult flaming turkeys at my neighbor's house because Jesus, THAT is a special right. If I say that a transsexual ought to be able to enjoy the same right I have as a cis male to walk down the street without having the shit beaten out of them, that is not and ought not to be a special right; nor is the assertion that my wife should make the same money I do for the same job, or that my LGBT friends shouldn't have to worry about being fired for their sexual orientation. Again, equality isn't somehow a special case or status; it's what we owe each other just on the basis of our shared humanity.

Just my $.02 worth, mind you.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Tova on 10 Jun 2014, 21:47
They're not my character descriptors/analysis. They're the author's objectively true facts. http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2502 The asshole part was just my personal executive summary of her character to date.

I never said they were yours. Anyway, it was your personal executive summary I was questioning, not the author's "objectively true facts" (which they aren't - that's the character speaking, not the author).

Rights are not bestowed automatically.
Yes, they are. THAT IS WHAT MAKES THEM RIGHTS. It's also why everyone has them, even if they are too often not recognized or acknowledged.

You missed an important part that alters the meaning of what you quoted.

Rights are not bestowed automatically. They must be safeguarded and fought for.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Rghfrgl on 10 Jun 2014, 22:01
Take it Marten.

Take it and pass it on to Hannelore.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: GarandMarine on 10 Jun 2014, 22:45

Edit:  More to the topic, AIs in the QC 'verse probably face even worse even when they *do* get hired.  They don't need to eat, or rest after all, and probably get exploited all the time on OT hours, since they won't fall victim to fatigue and make potentially dangerous mistakes.  Momo seems to have landed a pretty good gig at the library, since Tai is respectful of not only her, but her other minions as people, and she gets to go out like any other person would.

I would preferentially hire AIs just for that honestly. Get some retired military AIs in civilian chassis, make sure they've downloaded the works of Col Cooper and the latest copy of Jane's and the NRA's latest instructor and range officer courses and turn them loose on the sales floor/range. They'd be doing a job related to their original gigs with way less risk and pressure, for a fair wage. I get dedicated, skilled, professional staffers who sure as shit aren't going to let shoplifting happen or screw up the till.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: madhat on 10 Jun 2014, 22:47
Am I the only one that feels uneasy about the title "bread and salt"?
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Indicible on 10 Jun 2014, 22:50
It's a title to take with a grain of salt....
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Kugai on 10 Jun 2014, 23:07
Nothing says 'Family' more than the gift of a Bullfrog.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Barmymoo on 10 Jun 2014, 23:31
If people would like to debate the nature of rights and whether or not AIs should have them, please take the discussion to the DISCUSS subforum. It's getting too political for this thread.

I think Sam is adorable, but I have a suspicion that Marten might want to release that frog back into its natural habitat...
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Loki on 10 Jun 2014, 23:58
We even already have a thread on the nature of rights (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php?topic=29823.0) specifically.

Am I the only one that feels uneasy about the title "bread and salt"?

Why? It's a tradition (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_salt).
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: NilsO on 10 Jun 2014, 23:58
OK, cute gesture by Sam, but what should Marten do next? I guess he is not very interested in keeping Froglord as a pet. On the other hand, he is definitely not interested in hurting Sam's feelings.

When Sam and Momo went frog-hunting, Sam put Froglord back in the pond (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2027) afterwards, but that was just to avoid being yelled at by her father. She may plan to establish an amphibian research facility at Marten and Faye's apartment. The friendship offering might have a hidden agenda.

EDIT: Finally found it. Marten has handled frogs before (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=785).
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: anahata on 11 Jun 2014, 00:03
Am I the only one that feels uneasy about the title "bread and salt"?

Probably. Do explain...
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Platypodes on 11 Jun 2014, 00:49
OK, cute gesture by Sam, but what should Marten do next? I guess he is not very interested in keeping Froglord as a pet. On the other hand, he is definitely not interested in hurting Sam's feelings.

When Sam and Momo went frog-hunting, Sam put Froglord back in the pond (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2027) afterwards, but that was just to avoid being yelled at by her father.
Marten could tell Sam that his mom told him to put the frog back in the pond...
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: madhat on 11 Jun 2014, 01:00
Am I the only one that feels uneasy about the title "bread and salt"?

Probably. Do explain...
It's A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones reference. Probably.

Without spoiling it too much for the five people who haven't seen/read it yet but for some reason care about spoilers, it has to do with a certain wedding that goes poorly.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: NilsO on 11 Jun 2014, 01:30
Also, Marten should reply with a friendship offering to Sam. This is mandatory according to the social protocol database (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1573). Maybe his old guitar?

Sam and Marten probably have few common interests. Marten is into music; Sam is into biology, technology, and swordfighting. Sam was in awe of Hanners after learning of her life on the space station (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2469), and might be very jealous on Marten when she finds out he has been there on a visit (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2105).
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Akima on 11 Jun 2014, 02:37
I seem to have stepped on some tails with my remark that some are more deserving of rights than others.
Which is hardly surprising given that the discussion related to what rights people deserved, not on the basis of what they might have done, as would be the case of a "felon", but for what they inherently are. May was not told that she shouldn't bother to apply for a job because she was a felon with a criminal record, but simply because she's a robot.

I believe there is a very big difference between restricting the civil rights of a criminal, and deciding that a law-abiding person is inherently less deserving of rights because they are, for example, female and/or a member of an ethnic minority. I can, with reservations about the means or extent, support the former, but never, ever the latter.

That frog is disturbingly reminiscent of the Hypno-Toad.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: anahata on 11 Jun 2014, 03:37
It's A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones reference. Probably.

Maybe I'm being naive and innocent, but surely "a welcome greeting ceremony in many European cultures" (as Wikipedia puts it).
That meaning is also referenced in almost everything on the first page of a Google search for that phrase

Still it wouldn't be the first time Jeph gave us an obscure cultural reference, so you might yet be right...
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: NilsO on 11 Jun 2014, 04:09
It is a (mainly Slavic) greeting ceremony, and by no means an obscure cultural reference.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: lot_jockey on 11 Jun 2014, 04:31
Also, Marten should reply with a friendship offering to Sam. This is mandatory according to the social protocol database (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1573). Maybe his old guitar?


He traded in his Telecaster (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2417) to get his new guitar.

Also, how does Sam hold on to frogs for so long? I'm impressed. They usually hop right out of my hands!
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: KOK on 11 Jun 2014, 04:35
In 1001 Nights there is a story where a guest claims to suffer from a condition that prevents him from eating bread or salt. This is because if you accept bread and salt from your host, you are his friend, and doing him harm is a great sin. Obviously the host realises that the guest intents to do him harm.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: pwhodges on 11 Jun 2014, 04:39
It is a (mainly Slavic) greeting ceremony, and by no means an obscure cultural reference.

It is not universally known though, I guess, 'cause it's new to me.  I won't go into what passed through my mind in respect of bread, salt and a frog...
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: GarandMarine on 11 Jun 2014, 05:05
It is a (mainly Slavic) greeting ceremony, and by no means an obscure cultural reference.

It is not universally known though, I guess, 'cause it's new to me.  I won't go into what passed through my mind in respect of bread, salt and a frog...

Traditional British cuisine?
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: pwhodges on 11 Jun 2014, 05:06
Not sure how traditional...

But you've got the idea.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: GarandMarine on 11 Jun 2014, 05:09
My brain went straight to Toad In the Hole...
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Mr_Rose on 11 Jun 2014, 05:15
My brain went straight to Toad In the Hole...
Toad in the hole involves no actual toads. Not even when Heston makes it. You're thinking of French cuisine if that's the direction you went.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: GarandMarine on 11 Jun 2014, 05:59
I know it doesn't. Which is blatant false advertising by the by. Or perhaps that's the description for what the dish tastes like? Toad in a hole?
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: hedgie on 11 Jun 2014, 06:01
My brain went straight to Toad In the Hole...
Toad in the hole involves no actual toads. Not even when Heston makes it. You're thinking of French cuisine if that's the direction you went.
There's no saying what is actually *in* those sausages.  I did make Toad in the Hole a few times, and every time, I got the gravy wrong.  Although, I have had frog once, and it tasted fucking disgusting.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: GarandMarine on 11 Jun 2014, 06:05
I was offered frog amongst other Bayou critters whilst wandering in Louisiana (word to the wise, stay the FUCK out of the swamps. Any where. On any continent. Shit gets weird man.) but declined in favor of some gator and mud bugs. (Crawfish or crawdads to you lot)

(http://www.funnymemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/funny-memes-noooo-552x700.jpg)

Gator for the record is pretty darn good eatin! There's always something especially enjoyable about consuming a fellow predator.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: NilsO on 11 Jun 2014, 06:10
He traded in his Telecaster (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2417) to get his new guitar.
Ah, yes, I forgot about that. Marten will then need some other friendship offering.
Marten needs to take his big brother role towards Sam seriously. Sam seems quite self-confident and assertive; still, she prefers adult company instead of friends her own age, which may be of some concern. Also, her interests are quite different from typical 13 year old girls, which is not negative in any way, but probably makes it difficult for her to get friends.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Skewbrow on 11 Jun 2014, 06:15

Am I the only one that feels uneasy about the title "bread and salt"?

Why? It's a tradition (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_salt).

In these parts (apparently also elsewhere) Bread and Salt is a traditional gift (brought by the guests) at a housewarming party. Originally it was expressing the wish "may this house never run out of either". In  parts of Scotland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housewarming_party) apparently a frog served a similar purpose.

May be most of you knew this already and I made a fool of myself. I'll survive.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: KOK on 11 Jun 2014, 06:23
"May this house never run out of frogs."?
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: celticgeek on 11 Jun 2014, 09:11
Bread and salt are traditional gifts for a new household.  Bread so the house will never know hunger, and salt to insure a little spice in the new house.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: madhat on 11 Jun 2014, 10:44

Am I the only one that feels uneasy about the title "bread and salt"?

Why? It's a tradition (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_salt).

In these parts (apparently also elsewhere) Bread and Salt is a traditional gift (brought by the guests) at a housewarming party. Originally it was expressing the wish "may this house never run out of either". In  parts of Scotland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housewarming_party) apparently a frog served a similar purpose.

May be most of you knew this already and I made a fool of myself. I'll survive.

Ah. This is the information I lacked. George R. R. Martin must have borrowed the "bread and salt" idea from real life, like most of what he writes. So, it could be a reference to either one, but probably the custom. Imminent horrific massacres in QC now judged "unlikely".
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: zmeiat_joro on 11 Jun 2014, 13:04
"Bread and salt" around thse parts also means to welcome someone with great hospitality.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Method of Madness on 11 Jun 2014, 13:10
she prefers adult company instead of friends her own age, which may be of some concern. Also, her interests are quite different from typical 13 year old girls, which is not negative in any way, but probably makes it difficult for her to get friends.
She prefers adult company because her interests are quite different from typical 13 year old girls.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Barmymoo on 11 Jun 2014, 13:13
When I was thirteen, many of my friends (and all but one of the ones I'm still in touch with) were aged 20-25 for precisely that reason.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 11 Jun 2014, 13:56
Should Pintsize have all the same legal privileges as Momo? They deserve identical protection from arbitrary execution and being thrown against walls, of course. The same with employment discrimination. Pintsize deserves to get rejected by employers for his behavior and not his ethnicity.

The question is more about other benefits of citizenship, such as driver's licenses and voting. Since we allow irresponsible humans to vote, maybe we have to let Pintsize vote too.

If the QC world classifies Pintsize as a child for legal purposes that would solve a lot of problems.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Barmymoo on 11 Jun 2014, 14:04
We don't classify adults with behaviour problems, learning disabilities or severe mental illnesses (to list a few of the things that might make it hard for someone to function responsibly in society) as being children, though.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Welu on 11 Jun 2014, 14:12
Sam's gesture is adorable! :laugh:
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: hedgie on 11 Jun 2014, 14:57
We don't classify adults with behaviour problems, learning disabilities or severe mental illnesses (to list a few of the things that might make it hard for someone to function responsibly in society) as being children, though.
Of course, there doesn't seem to be the same type of correlation between AI age and maturity like there is for humans.  It's really harder to set an age of majority for robots.  Given that AIs in the QC 'verse have equal rights, there obviously will be an age of majority for them, but I have no idea what it'd be, since an age of majority of 18 seems a little long and a bit discriminatory, given that at this point Momo is all of about 3, looks about 13-14, and is about as mature and responsible as I was at around 15-16.  So what would be the age of majority for a robot?
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: FunkyTuba on 11 Jun 2014, 15:13
Much as I would love to know about the specifics (and imagine the IMPLICATIONS) of how individual AIs are begat from their collective consciousness and what their terms and conditions are, Jeph has pretty clearly said a few times that he's saving a lot of those details to be revealed later in the comic for dramatic or humor purposes... I think we'll just have to wait.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Method of Madness on 11 Jun 2014, 15:23
Right, so all we have now is speculation.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Thrillho on 11 Jun 2014, 16:06
(and imagine the IMPLICATIONS)

Obviously we can't discuss it.

(http://global3.memecdn.com/because-of-the-implication_o_150451.jpg)
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: anahata on 11 Jun 2014, 16:14
It is a (mainly Slavic) greeting ceremony, and by no means an obscure cultural reference.

I know. But madhat was associating it with some song I'd never heard of, and that was what I was calling an obscure cultural reference.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: hedgie on 11 Jun 2014, 16:26
Fuck, I'll speculate.  Jeph has stated that AI is an emergent property, kinda like it was for humans.  It's certainly possible that AIs, or even an AI and a human can copy their programmes and merge said copy to a gestalt of all entities involved (like how the Major in the original GITS film and project 2501 merged, but working only with a copy).  I suspect that since the Singularity, that AIs have their own way to reproduce, and I won't bother thinking of the details.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: madhat on 11 Jun 2014, 17:13
It is a (mainly Slavic) greeting ceremony, and by no means an obscure cultural reference.

I know. But madhat was associating it with some song I'd never heard of, and that was what I was calling an obscure cultural reference.

"A Song of Ice and Fire" is a fantasy book series by George R. R. Martin, that spawned the popular television show Game of Thrones (named after the first book). It's nerdy, but not really that obscure.

Ultimately, I think QC was probably referencing the real life greeting ceremony that I previously didn't know about, and not the books/show. 
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: jwhouk on 11 Jun 2014, 17:53
From how Jeph has said it, it sounds like AI's came first, and AnthroPC's came next - which were followed by the more-human-like models (RoboBoyfriend was a prototype), which was followed by the Idoru models.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Method of Madness on 11 Jun 2014, 18:31
Awwwwwwwww, looks like Marten's got the big brother thing down better than we thought :mrgreen:
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: GarandMarine on 11 Jun 2014, 19:24
Ruh Roh. Dora's gonna be pissed that Frog Lord 2 is on the loose.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Truec on 11 Jun 2014, 19:26
Quote from: Jeph
WHERE DID HE GO

IS HE HIDING UNDER A BOX

Of course not, Sam already told us that he's a frog, not a snake.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Rghfrgl on 11 Jun 2014, 19:28
 Just leave him, I'm sure he'll pop up eventually.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: hedgie on 11 Jun 2014, 19:57
Or hop up.  He is a frog after all.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 11 Jun 2014, 20:05
SPECIALS

Ceremonial Frog Latte


Sam doesn't have a swamp partner any more. Why did Momo stop going exploring with Sam? If your mission in life is to be an ambassador to humans, spending time with younger and more impressionable ones is the best use of time.

Did Momo get permanently offended by the dishwasher remark?
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: hedgie on 11 Jun 2014, 20:13
Momo's working her robotic butt off, and spending her free time doing things that she wants to do.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 11 Jun 2014, 20:26
Reaching out to humans is something she wants to do (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2284).
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: jwhouk on 11 Jun 2014, 20:34
Oh boy, that frog is going to go downstairs and discover the Spider Lair... and PIG the #### OUT.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 11 Jun 2014, 22:01
Rights. Asserting that person X has right Y does not automagically make it so. It is not an observable fact like the melting point of iron.

I will shut up now.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 11 Jun 2014, 22:06
Thread about the nature of rights (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php?topic=29823.0).
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: ysth on 11 Jun 2014, 22:19
I think we all know where ceremonial frog went:
http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=1155 (http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=1155)
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: GarandMarine on 11 Jun 2014, 22:34
Thread about the nature of rights (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php?topic=29823.0).

I have tossed a response in there continuing this if any one actually wants to participate.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: ZoeB on 12 Jun 2014, 00:28
I think Marten would make as good a big brother as Sam does a little sister.
That's pretty darned good.

Batrachian greetings to all.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: NilsO on 12 Jun 2014, 00:35
The ceremonial frog will no doubt reappear, possibly on top of the espresso machine (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2574). Dora will not be happy, and if the health inspector (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=914) is present, there will be problems.

I look forward to a new walk in the woods (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2017). Marten and his friends spend too much time indoors.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 12 Jun 2014, 00:41
Great point. It is not good for them to be indoors all the time.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: ihs on 12 Jun 2014, 06:04
I don't have much to say, except that Sam is just so gosh-darn adorable. :)

And all hail Frog-Lord.  That's got to be some sort of health code violation, having a live frog in a bakery; I pray Hanners isn't working today.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: cesium133 on 12 Jun 2014, 06:33
Is there an Android version of the Orbital Bombardment App?
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Sidhekin on 12 Jun 2014, 06:56
That's got to be some sort of health code violation, having a live frog in a bakery;
I had to check, but colours say this is the coffee shop, not the bakery.
I pray Hanners isn't working today.
... as does Hanners' working there ...
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: FunkyTuba on 12 Jun 2014, 10:56
(and imagine the IMPLICATIONS)
Obviously we can't discuss it.
Speculate and discuss as you like, just try not to talk about anything you may want to happen in the comic lest Jeph decides he can't put it in the comic because someone else came up with it.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: hedgie on 12 Jun 2014, 11:41
I have quite a number of speculations that relate to canon that I'd love to talk about.  Maybe I should write a .sig stating that anything I post to the comics forum is public domain.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: cesariojpn on 12 Jun 2014, 13:54
Speculate and discuss as you like, just try not to talk about anything you may want to happen in the comic lest Jeph decides he can't put it in the comic because someone else came up with it.

All the characters can't use the letter "E" in any form. EVER.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: pwhodges on 12 Jun 2014, 14:21
Well, that's the two main characters' names out of the window, for a start!
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Loki on 12 Jun 2014, 14:28
But where does Marigold have an E in her name? :angel:
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Pilchard123 on 12 Jun 2014, 14:53
Her surname is Farmer.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Schmorgluck on 12 Jun 2014, 15:20
I look forward to a new walk in the woods (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2017). Marten and his friends spend too much time indoors.
And that could be an opportunity to have Eliot back. I miss him.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: SuctionCup Caper Two on 12 Jun 2014, 16:22
I don't have much to say, except that Sam is just so gosh-darn adorable. :)

And all hail Frog-Lord.  That's got to be some sort of health code violation, having a live frog in a bakery; I pray Hanners isn't working today.

...and there goes the spider-zone. 
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Kugai on 12 Jun 2014, 16:36
That's if the Frog finds the Highway to it.


Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Thrillho on 12 Jun 2014, 18:04
(and imagine the IMPLICATIONS)
Obviously we can't discuss it.
Speculate and discuss as you like, just try not to talk about anything you may want to happen in the comic lest Jeph decides he can't put it in the comic because someone else came up with it.

...I just wanted to use that picture of Dennis.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Jazzmaster on 12 Jun 2014, 19:06
I didn't really peg May as the type to get this angry about something and then just, not do anything about it.  And how is reporting illegal activity "stirring up trouble" for her?  It'd only cause trouble for the employer, and their trouble would be deserved.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: St.Clair on 12 Jun 2014, 19:14
And how is reporting illegal activity "stirring up trouble" for her?  It'd only cause trouble for the employer

Oh, you sweet summer child.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Method of Madness on 12 Jun 2014, 19:45
Speculate and discuss as you like, just try not to talk about anything you may want to happen in the comic lest Jeph decides he can't put it in the comic because someone else came up with it.

All the characters can't use the letter "E" in any form. EVER.
Quote from: Lenny
But I didn't say (falls) eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 12 Jun 2014, 20:09
Dale just impressed me.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: SomeCanadianWeirdo on 12 Jun 2014, 20:15
I really hope Jeph isn't planning on May working at Coffee of Doom. 
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Neko_Ali on 12 Jun 2014, 20:22
bing. Looks like some realization just got dropped on May. And really, let's be honest. Most people put up with a lot of shit to keep a job. They are kind of important. And most people aren't willing to stick their necks on the line, especially when it doesn't affect them.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Method of Madness on 12 Jun 2014, 20:33
Dale just impressed me.
Me too. And from her expression in panel four, he impressed May as well. I hope she does the right thing.

(pause)

No, May, murder is not the right thing.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: SomeCanadianWeirdo on 12 Jun 2014, 21:19
Given May`s backstory I suspect the real worry would be her hacking the bank accounts of the anti-AI shop owner and donating all his money to the Butts Disease Foundation.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Method of Madness on 12 Jun 2014, 21:28
Except the owner doesn't know about that, she was dissuaded from applying simply because she was a robot.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: KOK on 12 Jun 2014, 21:44
The comic is taking a much more serious turn.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: jwhouk on 12 Jun 2014, 21:45
I'd switch the poll to "moment of the week", but I think "Then how are you different than the person working at the store?" would be the hands-down winner.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: pwhodges on 12 Jun 2014, 22:24
Meanwhile... Dale's shirt!   :-D
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: KOK on 12 Jun 2014, 23:03
Marigold's influence.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: hedgie on 12 Jun 2014, 23:21

No, May, murder is not the right thing.

Murder is never the answer.  It's the question.  The answer, at least in this case is "yes".
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 12 Jun 2014, 23:28
I really hope Jeph isn't planning on May working at Coffee of Doom.

If Faye follows Angus to New York, there will be an opening for someone foul-mouthed and hostile.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Akima on 13 Jun 2014, 00:13
The word May is looking for is "Touché"
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: NilsO on 13 Jun 2014, 00:23
Meanwhile... Dale's shirt!   :-D
Probably a gift from Marigold, but Dale does not really look like MLG...
(http://www.questionablecontent.net/random/magicallovegentleman.png)
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Loki on 13 Jun 2014, 00:37
...he is literally wearing a tie on his naked body.
No wonder Marigold is fawning over him.

Her surname is Farmer.
Even easier: her second name is Louise, if I remember correctly.

Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Mr. Doctor on 13 Jun 2014, 01:45
Dear May: Well Excuuuuuuuuusee me, Princess... But not everybody has the possibility to risk a job so they can tell their boss he/she is an idiot. That doesn't make them cowards. That just shows how much the system sucks because the workers are not protected in any way.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Sidhekin on 13 Jun 2014, 02:00
I look forward to a new walk in the woods (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2017). Marten and his friends spend too much time indoors.
And that could be an opportunity to have Eliot back. I miss him.
That would be lovely.  How about getting Momo along too?

... is there any other outdoorsy character left?

... Wil?

On the latest: Dale was incredibly quick on the uptake and with his one-two punch there.  Thank goodness for willing suspension of disbelief!  8-)
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: ZoeB on 13 Jun 2014, 02:48
...and so May was enlightened.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: hedgie on 13 Jun 2014, 03:05
...and so May was enlightened.
Might be the first time that she was confronted with doing the same thing herself, in this case, moral cowardice.  And yes, I *have* left jobs, not knowing what would happen next just because my boss *was* a douche || criminal of some sort, so sales lady has no fucking excuse.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: cesariojpn on 13 Jun 2014, 03:33
Dear May: Well Excuuuuuuuuusee me, Princess... But not everybody has the possibility to risk a job so they can tell their boss he/she is an idiot. That doesn't make them cowards. That just shows how much the system sucks because the workers are not protected in any way.

*cough*Unions*cough*
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Thrillho on 13 Jun 2014, 04:13
Dear May: Well Excuuuuuuuuusee me, Princess... But not everybody has the possibility to risk a job so they can tell their boss he/she is an idiot. That doesn't make them cowards. That just shows how much the system sucks because the workers are not protected in any way.

Yep.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: GarandMarine on 13 Jun 2014, 04:50
Dear May: Well Excuuuuuuuuusee me, Princess... But not everybody has the possibility to risk a job so they can tell their boss he/she is an idiot. That doesn't make them cowards. That just shows how much the system sucks because the workers are not protected in any way.

*cough*Unions*cough*

Are just as damaging to workers and worker's rights in the modern environment. I am still in trouble for telling a Union rep to lick my boot heel.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Thrillho on 13 Jun 2014, 05:02
Yeah but you guys have a totally different union system to us.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: jwhouk on 13 Jun 2014, 05:25
Are just as damaging to workers and worker's rights in the modern environment. I am still in trouble for telling a Union rep to lick my boot heel.

And yet my life has been thrown upside down because I can no longer be a member of a union recognized by my employer, but that's a subject for another forum.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: pwhodges on 13 Jun 2014, 05:32
Meanwhile... Dale's shirt!   :-D
Probably a gift from Marigold, but Dale does not really look like MLG...
(http://www.questionablecontent.net/random/magicallovegentleman.png)

But compare Marten as MLG (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1528).

(http://cassland.org/images/QC/MartenMLG.png)
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Valdís on 13 Jun 2014, 05:51
I really don't see what the "enlightenment" in this comic is supposed to be, because it's false. And Dale annoys me in it. And he's being an asshole.

Person A suffers from discrimination,
Person B is complicit and part of the oppressor class,
Person C excuses Person B maintaining the oppressive status quo by blaming Person A for their own oppression.

She's different because she's part of the targeted fucking marginalized group, is why. "Keeping your head down" is not an equivalent moral position for the one trying to cope with discrimination and the one perpetuating it.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: CaptainFish on 13 Jun 2014, 06:03
Yeah, I agree. I'd also argue being an ex-con puts her in a rougher position than someone who just quits a job because of illegal workforce discrimination. May may have less to lose, and reporting that employer might not end up being a problem, but her fears come from being imprisoned which is pretty serious. The 'you guys are the same' thing doesn't really ring true for me at all.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Valdís on 13 Jun 2014, 06:08
And by Hel don't shame someone for not reporting illegal things done to them. It's a shitty position to be in and the law is not automatically helpful - especially for marginalized groups.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: DSL on 13 Jun 2014, 07:29
Suppose, just suppose, Dale is trying to get May to think she and the salesperson have something in common -- perception of self-powerlessness to change things --and to empathize, not feel shame. If you can empathize, you can seek common cause. Or at least figure out who is your enemy and who is not, rather than simply assuming everyone is.

EDIT: And also to not expect everyone else (the salesperson, in this case) to fight your battles for you.

I have a little bet with myself ...
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Sidhekin on 13 Jun 2014, 09:05
Yeah, I agree. I'd also argue being an ex-con puts her in a rougher position than someone who just quits a job because of illegal workforce discrimination.
... and how do you know that this someone is not also an ex-con?

Don't judge someone until you've at least seen their shoes ...
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Smallest on 13 Jun 2014, 10:14
They have no voice at all to me, and I'm really not sure why.

I'm that way with some of them. There are also a few whose appearance and demeanor reminds me of people I know, but those wouldn't make sense to anyone else who didn't know those people, or at least how they sounded.

Come to think of it, one of the things I dislike is when I see a movie of a book I've read and nobody sounds like they did to my mind's ear.

Most of them have voices for me, but as soon as I stop reading them I don't remember what that was anymore.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Thrillho on 13 Jun 2014, 10:32
Is that not a tad hypocritical?
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Smallest on 13 Jun 2014, 10:43
I'm assuming the hypocritical comment wasn't toward me, since I was offtopic and forgetting something isn't really hypocritical.

On May: I initially found her quite annoying ('really? we needed yelling bird in comic?'), but I don't see why some people think she's truly, never-associate-with, awful. She swears a lot, but she hasn't really been outrightly mean to anyone- less so than Faye, and while that's not really fair since Faye was awful at points,I wouldn't really consider May outrightly mean ever. She pushes people a bit, and obviously with the tits thing she's rude, but when contested she backs down pretty much immediately. She's doesn't really fight or anything (even verbally), she just tests people- which isn't a great thing, but I think everyone does that, in different ways. And she's pretty much only been testing people she's in close contact with (Dale, Marigold, Momo)- the reaction to the jerk boss was understandable and while rude, she didn't pick a fight with the second shoplady (Raventai).

Also, Marten should reply with a friendship offering to Sam. This is mandatory according to the social protocol database (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1573). Maybe his old guitar?
He traded in his Telecaster (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2417) to get his new guitar.
Also, how does Sam hold on to frogs for so long? I'm impressed. They usually hop right out of my hands!

By holding them under their armpits like that. Also, the big ones are usually a bit more sluggish, or so I've learned from the invasive American Bullfrog here, which I'm assuming is what she has since that is america.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Neko_Ali on 13 Jun 2014, 11:08
I really don't see that Dale was trying to shame May. Rather he was trying to point out to her that the clerk was in just as untenable position. Putting up with something she didn't like because she was afraid if she spoke up she could lose her job. For most people, especially in this economy, losing a job is a major difficulty, with no guarantee that a new one will be coming any time soon.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Thrillho on 13 Jun 2014, 11:09
I was responding to Valdis, didn't realise there was another page.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: FunkyTuba on 13 Jun 2014, 13:32
...I just wanted to use that picture of Dennis.

fair enough  :-D
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Valdís on 13 Jun 2014, 14:27
Is that not a tad hypocritical?

For something to be hypocritical then it would have to be applied differently in the same situation. But it is NOT the same situation.

People who are targeted by oppression are not in the same situation as the ones enabling it. "I was just following orders" is not an excuse, even if it's a shitty position for them to be in as well (though not remotely as shitty).

I'm not saying it's an easy call for her or many other people complicit in any number of oppressions, but that doesn't mean she -isn't- complicit. Nor does it mean that the marginalized group aren't the ones hurt by her calculated inaction while she only benefits. There is no such thing as oppressor classes just "keeping their heads down" in the same way in which the oppressed try to minimize that oppression's impact on them.

Hm. I'll say something not-intended-to-be-analogous-(and isn't), more-so to get the power differential across. Say the two of us are hanging out together while I'm visiting you over in England or something, and one of your friends makes a transmisogynistic 'joke' because I'm there. Would you say it'd be hypocritical to consider you more responsible for dealing with that than me - as failing to do so would be a tacit endorsement of his behaviour (and you're the link between me and the main-asshole)? Or perhaps that my shying away from dealing with said transmisogynist for self-care is not equivalent to your not wanting things to be awkward with that friend?

(The additional power imbalance at play in the situation at hand is, however, also that she's economically marginalized relative to the boss, but people with all kinds of marginalizations uphold all kinds of oppressions all the time. And one does not cancel out the other. 'Understandable' is not the same as 'Not complicit'.)
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Kugai on 13 Jun 2014, 14:48
Lightbulb moment.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Thrillho on 13 Jun 2014, 15:49
I can't argue with the definition of the word 'complicit.' But standing up for my friends in the face of prejudiced arseholes - which, by the way, I have done for my entire life - doesn't risk me failing to pay rent.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Zwammy on 13 Jun 2014, 17:28
So - is Dale a fan of Magical Love Gentleman and wears a shirt proclaiming his love of the show, or did he buy and wear the shirt to win points with Marigold and get her excited, or did Marigold own it and puppy-eye him into wearing it and he is whipped enough to do it?
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Neko_Ali on 13 Jun 2014, 18:04
I think he's a fan of the show. Wasn't there a poster for it behind him during old scenes at his computer when he was WoW-stalking Marigold?
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 13 Jun 2014, 18:52
Looking good, May! (Orange is so not your color.)
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: jmucchiello on 13 Jun 2014, 21:47
Lightbulb moment.
A little more like a sudden abend and cleanup process trying to fix some minor damage to existing thought processes.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: T on 13 Jun 2014, 22:18
Looking good, May! (Orange is so not your color.)
Have Jeff ever joked about a character being naked waist down but nobody notices since it doesn't show in the comic?
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Method of Madness on 13 Jun 2014, 22:19
Looking good, May! (Orange is so not your color.)
Have Jeph ever joked about a character being naked waist down but nobody notices since it doesn't show in the comic?
Station, but they did notice it and it was shown in the comic, if memory serves.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: ankhtahr on 13 Jun 2014, 22:23
It was actually Spaceship.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: KOK on 13 Jun 2014, 23:16
I think he's a fan of the show. Wasn't there a poster for it behind him during old scenes at his computer when he was WoW-stalking Marigold?
He has several manga or anime posters, but none of MLG.
http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2359 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2359)
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: pwhodges on 14 Jun 2014, 02:47
Dale owns the entire MLG manga - see this news post (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2495).
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Redball on 14 Jun 2014, 05:52
Have Jeff ever joked about a character being naked waist down but nobody notices since it doesn't show in the comic?
Notice the Public Spelling Announcement post in this section, third one down. The comic creator/forum owner spells his name Jeph, and so do we.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Method of Madness on 14 Jun 2014, 06:43
It was actually Spaceship.
Ah yes, my mistake.

Hodgy, newsposts are more snarky comments than canonical statements, at least I think so. Either way, he clearly does have at least a shelf full, so it's safe to say he's a fan.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Zwammy on 14 Jun 2014, 07:35
Either way, he clearly does have at least a shelf full, so it's safe to say he's a fan.

Indeed. Dale and Marigold will have to battle it out in MLG Trivia for prizes at the next Nrrdcon (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1525).
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: willpell on 14 Jun 2014, 07:54
So am I the only one who wishes this week had concentrated entirely on May's quest to overcome robocism, and not randomly had Samantics in the middle?
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Method of Madness on 14 Jun 2014, 08:27
We're not all...
(click to show/hide)
:mrgreen:
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Loki on 14 Jun 2014, 10:54
If Sam goes down into the spider-infested basement, does she get Samantic web all over herself?
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: pwhodges on 14 Jun 2014, 11:33
How long did it take you to come up with that?!
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Loki on 14 Jun 2014, 13:04
...all of two minutes, I guess.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Kugai on 14 Jun 2014, 16:10
Well, she's always up to some antics.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: ysth on 15 Jun 2014, 00:31
Looking good, May! (Orange is so not your color.)
Have Jeff ever joked about a character being naked waist down but nobody notices since it doesn't show in the comic?
Close: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=800 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=800)
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Schwungrad on 17 Jun 2014, 15:02
People who are targeted by oppression are not in the same situation as the ones enabling it. "I was just following orders" is not an excuse, even if it's a shitty position for them to be in as well (though not remotely as shitty).
However, if we are to believe May's own words, her reason for not standing up against robot oppression isn't being oppressed as a robot - it's being an ex-con. And I agree with Dale that "I can't stand up against robot oppression because I'm an ex-con" falls into the same category of excuse as "I can't stand up against robot oppression because I'm a low-wage employee with no job security".
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Ben on 18 Jun 2014, 13:28
I might just be missing something, being British and all but is the "Hemp Store" the hippy-clothing one? There are stalls at places like Cambridge Market and Camden Lock, so I could see one fitting right in among some of the background in QC.

Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Method of Madness on 18 Jun 2014, 18:38
Pretty sure it's a medicinal weed dispensary. "Medicinal" used rather loosely.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: SuctionCup Caper Two on 18 Jun 2014, 18:48
Pretty sure it's a medicinal weed dispensary. "Medicinal" used rather loosely.

There are also stores that sell hemp-based product...  however I would be very suspect of one operating out of a van.  Even if it is a nice van.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Ben on 19 Jun 2014, 00:08
Pretty sure it's a medicinal weed dispensary. "Medicinal" used rather loosely.

There are also stores that sell hemp-based product...  however I would be very suspect of one operating out of a van.  Even if it is a nice van.

I did wonder. Over here it us either 100% illegal or in a Holland, sold openly as marijuana under certain controlled circumstances
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Ben on 19 Jun 2014, 00:23
Interesting, if predictable discussion about rights and laws between Dale and May. May appears to be an intolerant, foul-mouthed individual with little grasp on responsibilities - nobody invited her to Dale's place, and she didn't go to Robot Jail for over-exercise of whatever passes for a conscience among AIs.

As someone else has already pointed out, the salesgirl is in an untenable position and standing up for May in that sense, could very well amount to  exercising May's rights at her own expense - because people aren't going to be queuing up to employ her with that on her CV.

That's overlooking the clash between legal compliance and freedom of conscience. Why SHOULD someone with nothing to gain and much to lose, be expected to take a position like that, on behalf of an ingrate like May?

Political correctness is, on many levels, a process by which one group in society imposes the rights of a second group on a third group, without providing any balancing mechanism and in the knowledge that the third group have no reciprocal rights
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 19 Jun 2014, 10:43
>Why SHOULD someone with nothing to gain and much to lose, be expected to take a position like that, on behalf of an ingrate like May?

Because it's the ethical thing to do. It's also the legal thing to do.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Thrillho on 19 Jun 2014, 10:47
Which may not be worth the risk.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 19 Jun 2014, 11:38
Not in that case perhaps, and I don't condemn the sales clerk for lacking extraordinary courage.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: Thrillho on 19 Jun 2014, 13:34
I know that she should report the manager but my issue is that would get an independent store shut down and so even doing the right thing will lose her her job.
Title: Re: WCDT: 2721-2725 (9-13 June 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Post by: DSL on 19 Jun 2014, 19:24
When someone *does* show extraordinary ethics/intestinal fortitude/other good stuff, all you can do is appreciate and admire and hope s/he inspires. Hectoring someone into above-and-beyond -- well, it backfires sometimes. You've got to have demonstrated sufficient moral authority beforehand -- walked the walk -- to make that work.

Damn you, why aren't you awesome?