THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)
Fun Stuff => BAND => Topic started by: My Aim Is True on 09 Jul 2005, 06:28
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Ok, I'm not quite up to the task of making an emo FAQ (maybe I'll give ti a shot later though), but I always get sort of bummed when seems like people (whether they love it OR hate it) think emo means Something Corporate and Dashboard Confessional, or Taking Back Sunday, or whatever other craptastic band can't find anything to sing about besides a broken heart.
Declarations of SPIN and Alternative Press aside, none of that shit is emo. (Also, From Autumn To Ashes and Thursday are not screamo)
On a board like this, I'd almost take it for granted that people are at least passingly familiar with the old Dischord school of emo, but does anyone have a clue about any emo bands between 1986 and whenever these sad sack bands got popular? Does anyone realize that real emo bands are usually more like hardcore bands, and that hardcore is not all that angsty metal screaming break stuff shit?
GOOD EMO-
Rites Of Spring
Embrace
Turning Point
Hot Water Music
Paint it Black
Trial By Fire
Four Walls Falling
Strike Anywhere
Cap'n Jazz
Waxwing
early Piebald
Dag Nasty
Nation Of Ulysses
Drive Like Jehu
Texas is The Reason
Planes Mistaken For Stars
Unbroken
Twelve Hour Turn
Small Brown Bike
Sparkmarker
Endpoint
Jawbreaker
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I do believe From Autumn To Ashes is Emocore. Of course, I could be wrong. I am still not clear on the whole emo mess.
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FATA is metalcore.
if a band wears girl pants and eyeliner, and there are no girls in the band, then there is a 99.99% chance they are not an emo band, hardcore band, or very good.
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oh yeah, I should note that I'm not trying to say I'm more old school or smarter about emo, or anything like that, just that I have learned more. Back in 1999 when almost all I listened to was ska, punk, and new wave, I HATED what I thought emo was. I couldn't stand bands like The Get Up Kids and Saves The Day (who both have their roots in emo, but have moved away from it). And it only got worse as all the pop-punk bands turned sad and started calling themselves emo.
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Embrace are emo? I think this is stretching genre definitions to the point of meaninglessness, embrace have absolutely nothing in common with any of the bands that actaully identify themselves as "emo" or some variation of it.
If you try and expand the definition of emo to "music with emotions in it" then everything qualifies as emo.
Then again, i have always always catergorised dashboard confessional et all as "wuss-rock".
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are you thinking of the band from the UK today? I was referring to the band from DC, in the 80's, with Ian MacKaye. Them and Rites Of Spring pretty much were the first emo bands ever.
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Oh right, i was talking about the UK one, i didnt know there was another band by the same name.
Still, i think if you want to reclaim the term "emo" from the snivelling children that think self pity is cool, you need to find a new, insulting term for the crap they listen to. I think wuss rock is pretty apropriate. Start using the term, see if you can make them cry! :)
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You're leaving out the entire second half of emo's progression, MyAimIsTrue. I mean, I understand you want to keep it separate from today's "emo" and also injecting your own personal opinion into the matter, but like it or not, if you're trying toi make a semi-objective emo FAQ you can't cut your list off just before Jawbreaker's "Dear You" and pretend that Sunny Day Real Estate isn't emo. I really think people should talk about first wave emo (which is what you're talking about), second-wave emo (which starts with Jawbreaker's "Dear You" and continues through Sunny Day Real Estate (and "Diary" even came out before "Dear You"), Braid, the Promise Ring, Saves the Day, and maybe even early Get Up Kids. And what we have today should probably be called post-emo. Or emo-metal (or is that what people use emocore to mean?)
Or if you have better terminology than the wave thing I just proposed, go to it. But like it or not, emo means these later bands just as much as the old hardcore ones.
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Jawbreaker
This is album-specific. Dear You was pretty obviously emo. Earlier Jawbreaker, not so much.
Dear You was also their worst album by far.
On another note, I am pretty sure emocore is stuff along the lines of Trail of Dead. I've heard people extend that to At the Drive In, but really, no, no, no, they're not.
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Jawbreaker
This is album-specific. Dear You was pretty obviously emo. Earlier Jawbreaker, not so much.
I think that's his point though. 24 Hour Revenge Therapy could arguably be considered under his "GOOD EMO" heading. "Dear You" is more Sunny Day Real Estate (and more what we think of when we say emo today).
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Questionable. It could be argued that 24 Hour Revenge Therapy was just plain old 90s Wave Punk. 90s punk, for a large part, strayed out of the political arena and into the personal arena anyways, and most of the acts that didn't were all pretty much tools that were cynically going through the motions of punk. While 24HRT was definitely a personal album, and talked a lot about how sucktastic life was, I don't think Jawbreaker really strayed into the dangerous realm of emo until Dear You.
I suppose you could call most 90s personal punk "1st Wave Emo" and just be done with it, but that would tag an emo label on a lot of bands that probably don't deserve that moniker.
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I suppose you could call most 90s personal punk "1st Wave Emo" and just be done with it, but that would tag an emo label on a lot of bands that probably don't deserve that moniker.
That's kind of the trouble with the moniker "emo." That sort of trouble comes up later on too: one of the most influential albums of late-90s emo was most decidedly NOT in the genre (Weezer's "Pinkerton" of course).
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What's the trouble, that no one really knows what the fuck they're talking about when they use it? I guess it's like pornography, everyone thinks they knw it when they see it, but no one can really agree on the same things actually BEING emo.
By some definitions, hell, even Soundgarden and Nirvana have at least a foot in the emo scene.
I think this is one of those times where we all need to stop arguing and beat the shit out of the guy with the retro jacket and the Buddy Holly glasses.
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I understadn the emo progressing thing, and I'll concede Sunny Day Real Estate, Saves The Day and Get Up Kids and stuff like that, but the wattered down crap like Brand New and Hawthorne Heights or whatever the hell it is this week... I just can't call that emo the same way I can't call Mest, Busted and Good Charlotte punk bands.
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stickying this for now so that it doesn't get lost while i'm in the land of nod.
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Embrace are emo? I think this is stretching genre definitions to the point of meaninglessness, embrace have absolutely nothing in common with any of the bands that actaully identify themselves as "emo" or some variation of it.
If you try and expand the definition of emo to "music with emotions in it" then everything qualifies as emo.
Then again, i have always always catergorised dashboard confessional et all as "wuss-rock".
Embrace was the very first TRUE emo band.
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Okay, if we're going to get tetchy about emo, can we not sling the word 'metal' around whenever we hear overdrive and screaming?
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Its funny that most of that list went on to form Shitty Emo.
Because as we all know Emo people have ovaries, that make it impossible for them to make a good third album. They either break up, or just continue on sucking.
And who ever made fun of At-The Drive In is wrong. They were very very good.
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You should read more closely. I just said that there's no way in hell ATDI are emocore. That's all.
I love ATDI to pieces. They are awesome. And they are definitely not emocore or screamo or any of those crappy buzzwords.
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At the Drive-In is one of my favorite bands, but all that guy was saying was that they weren't "emocore." He said Trail of Dead is emocore, which I may or may not agree with. If emocore is emotional hardcore...I guess you can consider them emocore, but I prefer Indie Rock...emoindie. :P
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I've heard people call Trail of Dead "emocore." I dunno if I buy the label, but whatever.
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I thought I nit-picked about labeling genres, but not this bad. I never really paid attention to the whole emo scene since I don't like much of it. However, I haven't listened to any of the earlier emo bands you mention so I think I'll have to get the roots straight.
For what its worth, I like Sparta much better than ATDI.
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For what its worth, I like Sparta much better than ATDI.
Sparta is an uninspired attempt to keep the ATDI flames burning after all the talent left the band.
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Harsh, but an opinon nonetheless.
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The problem with Sparta is they are totally uninspired. They don't really have an original sound because the rest of the band really didn't have much actual talent. Sparta half the time tries to rip off ATDI and half the time tries to rip off various emo acts.
But let's be fair, the drums, bass, and rhythm guitar were never particularly inspired in ATDI either, so it's really no surprise that they're equally shit in Sparta.
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I don't know what Trail of Dead they are talking about, but the one I am listening to doesn't sound a thing like emocore.
I thought you were saying At-The Drive In wasn't emo either. I don't think they are screamo or emocore, or some other sub-genre.
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Ok, I'm not quite up to the task of making an emo FAQ (maybe I'll give ti a shot later though), but I always get sort of bummed when seems like people (whether they love it OR hate it) think emo means Something Corporate and Dashboard Confessional, or Taking Back Sunday, or whatever other craptastic band can't find anything to sing about besides a broken heart.
Declarations of SPIN and Alternative Press aside, none of that shit is emo. (Also, From Autumn To Ashes and Thursday are not screamo)
On a board like this, I'd almost take it for granted that people are at least passingly familiar with the old Dischord school of emo, but does anyone have a clue about any emo bands between 1986 and whenever these sad sack bands got popular? Does anyone realize that real emo bands are usually more like hardcore bands, and that hardcore is not all that angsty metal screaming break stuff shit?
GOOD EMO-
Rites Of Spring
Embrace
Turning Point
Hot Water Music
Paint it Black
Trial By Fire
Four Walls Falling
Strike Anywhere
Cap'n Jazz
Waxwing
early Piebald
Dag Nasty
Nation Of Ulysses
Drive Like Jehu
Texas is The Reason
Planes Mistaken For Stars
Unbroken
Twelve Hour Turn
Small Brown Bike
Sparkmarker
Endpoint
Jawbreaker
Planes may have been on Deep Elm, but that was two albums ago.
Strike Anywhere is quite far from emo. I don't hear them going on about girls they've lost.
Ditto for Paint it Black.
Are you just picking names at random from the Jade Tree website? Because if Trial By Fire is an emo band, so is Nausea.
I don't think its possible to categorize Hot Water Music as anything but a KICK ASS band.
Aside from those, I'd say its an inspired list.
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Cap'n Jazz ARE NOT AN EMO BAND
GO DIE IN A HOLE
you have just attempted to mutilate and awesome band :(
The only 'emo' band I like are Favez, because they're easy listening and you can sing along...
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Cap'n Jazz spawned both The Promise Ring and Joan Of Arc.
get over it.
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See people still insist on mixing New Age-Faux Emo that is similar to Pop Punk (good charlotte, simple plan.) that spit in the face of their father genres.
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saturnine1979, what's your avatar from?
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Tilly And The Wall
it's from the song "Night Of The Living Dead"
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Strike Anywhere ...I don't hear them going on about girls they've lost.
Ditto for Paint it Black.
That's exactly my point.
But half of PIB's new album is a metaphor for Dan Yemin's divorce.
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Strike Anywhere ...I don't hear them going on about girls they've lost.
Ditto for Paint it Black.
That's exactly my point.
But half of PIB's new album is a metaphor for Dan Yemin's divorce.
I've never heard that idea about Paradise before, but I'd like to hear where you did.
If the definition we're using of emo is music with emotion then that pretty much makes most groups out there emo.
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EMUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU.
psht. emo.
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Okay, if we're going to get tetchy about emo, can we not sling the word 'metal' around whenever we hear overdrive and screaming?
My fault. Point taken.
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Hello, i'm gonna drap the red rag around myself here and say some of the music I listen to would be the 'crap emo' you guys are referring to; specifically Dashboard Confessional. But I would like to take this time to say that I don't sit around crying into my pillow as I listen. I enjoy the music and it makes me happy, not sad, the same as all other bands I listen to. Don't just tar everyone with the same brush. Sure, Dahsboard Confessional do have a disproportionately higher amount of sad boys and gals supporting them, but that does mean well adjusted people can listen to them to.
Get down off your goddamn pedastals, take the poles out of your asses and actually give some things a chance. Otherwise you're just as bad as the mainstream supporters you secretly feel superior to.
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problem with Dashboard, etc, if i understand it correctly, is that it's not emo. sure, it might be "emotional music" or whatever, but "emo" as a genre doesn't encompass everything that is "emotional-sounding".
man, fuck it. i think that links to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emo and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indie_(music) will do.
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Yeah, i'm personally don't agree that it comes under the definition of emo. It just bugs me the way people sneer at the band because of who their fans are, and have achieved more mainstream success than obscureindieband.
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My general reaction to lines like that is that you probably dont understand why people are sneering the. But *shrug* maybe you do.
As much as real Emo is better than a lot of crap out there...and Emotional Hardcore is pretty decent...it's just lead me back to loving Hardcore Punk/Crossover and Crust stuff more.
Though it's really interesting to sit and watch the whole stereotyping and mislabelling of a genre and the mainstream perversion of it's music from the outside.. (well, the effects rather than the events) than being part of it.
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I found this website to be pretty accurate.
www.fourfa.com
Nobody will agree 100% on things, so there are a few tiny nitpicky things he gets into that I'd roll my eyes at, probably vice versa, but this site gets it pretty close. Just take a bit of it with a grain of salt, and try to recognize the satire aspects here and there.
Oh, and to KharBevNor- I think metal is a much broader term than emo, but many of the bands mentioned here do need qualifers, like metalcore or nu-metal or what have you.
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I dunno about broader term....broader in terms of genres yes. Thought what is and isn't Metal is still pretty tight. But yes, some things are part of Metal, or Metal influenced.
Just have to break way from what isn't Metal, just median labeled. The New Urbarn Alt Rock (Nu Metal) and influenced stuff like Metalcore...which has gone from being a crossbreed to Core with Metal touches. And boy do people rip on it these days.
Oh, and fourfa.com rocks...I've gotten some nice info from there...what I used to check out some of the good stuff.
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Strike Anywhere ...I don't hear them going on about girls they've lost.
Ditto for Paint it Black.
That's exactly my point.
But half of PIB's new album is a metaphor for Dan Yemin's divorce.
I've never heard that idea about Paradise before, but I'd like to hear where you did.
If the definition we're using of emo is music with emotion then that pretty much makes most groups out there emo.
You are still missing the point. Emo does NOT mean "music with emotion" but it also if all a band does is whine about girls and feeling lonely, then that is NOT emo either. The original emo movement grew out of 80's hardcore bands that got sick of meatheaded aspects of the scene, and branched into a blending of the personal and the political (which whether or not they realized it, is a core tenet of a large school of thought in modern sociology, especially academic feminism).
Do you like Minor Threat? Then go here and buy this http://www.dischord.com/store?action=showRel&relNumber=24 And then you will have a start on where emo came from.
And as for Paint It Black, I can't remember where I first heard it, but read this-
PAINT IT BLACK'S follow up to their urgent and trouncing CVA is epic in comparison. Not simply in terms of song length, but more importantly in terms of subject matter. Paradise contains all the mile-a-minute passion of the last release coupled with a more thematic tone, exploring the personal pains of divorce, the more global concerns of war and how the two are hopelessly intertwined. The end result is a heroic look inward and ultimately a catharsis guised in uncompromising intensity and spirit.
And by the way, about half the songs on PIB's first album were about Dan Yemin's stroke. CVA stands for "Cardio Vascular Accident," the medical term for a stroke. Can't get much more personal than that. PIB is an emo band. Because emo is a type of hardcore.
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PS- dear mods, please don't lock this thread.
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Threads like this around the board make me thing that Emo is now one of the most misunderstand, mislabelled and least really known about genres along with Metal.
Hmmm, should probably go check out some more of it at some point.
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Threads like this around the board make me thing that Emo is now one of the most misunderstand, mislabelled and least really known about genres along with Metal.
Hmmm, should probably go check out some more of it at some point.
The only reason why emo is the way it is today is because it feels misunderstood.
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Nice pot shot at the stereotypical and incorrect massmedia idea of Emo.
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I actually thought that joke was pretty funny.
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Classy, too.
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about half the bands you mentioned are post-hardcore.
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zek if you were a wiser man, you'd of had an epiphany.
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ouch.
finally on the receiving end.
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Albeit a poorly spelt recieving end.
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For what its worth, I like Sparta much better than ATDI.
Sparta is an uninspired attempt to keep the ATDI flames burning after all the talent left the band.
Agreed. Let's face it; Cedric and Omar were the ONLY things that made that band great. Without their creative drive and emotion, there is nothing left. Of course, what kept ATDI from going off the deep-end (Mars Volta) was the other bandmembers. It was a two-way restraining device. XP
Oh, and I'd like to add Mock Orange's first album to that good emo list. They had a nice twin guitar attack and never whined about...well, anything. It was just emotion. Mabe they can be considered emocore.
I'm just wondering. Why are The Dismemberment Plan considered "emo"? They sound nothing like anything in that emo umbrella, good emo or not.
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I would NEVER call the Dismemberment Plan an emo band, and I don't think I have ever heard anyone else do so.
And to Zekterellium- yes, emo was an early form of post-hardcore. Now the straight up post-hardcore bands like Fugazi and Quicksand, I would not call emo.
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planes mistaken are definitely post-hardcore, even back when. what i meant was, we were talking about genre classifications and how much it annoys you when people got it wrong, and you sorta maybe got it wrong. not being whiney or anything, i just wanted you to know. but yeah, we cleared it up, now i can go back to the sandbox where it's safe.
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Albeit a poorly spelt recieving end.
One effin' letter off.
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I would NEVER call the Dismemberment Plan an emo band, and I don't think I have ever heard anyone else do so.
And to Zekterellium- yes, emo was an early form of post-hardcore. Now the straight up post-hardcore bands like Fugazi and Quicksand, I would not call emo.
Rhapsody lists them as emo, and it says "emo quartet" in the Allmusic biography (though the later albums are called Indie Rock in the reviews). The bio only goes up until they released their first or second album, so it's more understandable, I guess.
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GOOD EMO
Oh man, that's a good one!
But seriously. The reason I have a strong dislike for the general emo scene - yes, even the "true good emo" bands - is that at least 95% of them came from rich white families from the suburbs, and got guitar lessons paid for by their parents, and yet at the same time they're complaining about life.
Yes, everyone has some aspect of life that's shit, but I feel like maybe they should step back, and look at other people's lives. Like say, Kuwait, with that whole genocide thing? Or maybe even those famous starving children in Africa (Stereotypical as it is, it still is a problem, and very few people seem intereseted in doing anything about it). And they're complaining about their life?
Aside from that, genres do very little except limit. I think truly great musicians can't fit under the mold of a single classification, and the term emo has such a grossly negative connotation that I don't even bother defending it anymore, misunderstood or not.
But hey, if you like emo music, then awesome. It's not my thing, but I thought I'd give a perspective that isn't "But emo is just misunderstood!" or "ZOMG EMO IS TEH SUX"
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What's the trouble, that no one really knows what the fuck they're talking about when they use it? I guess it's like pornography, everyone thinks they knw it when they see it, but no one can really agree on the same things actually BEING emo.
By some definitions, hell, even Soundgarden and Nirvana have at least a foot in the emo scene.
I think this is one of those times where we all need to stop arguing and beat the shit out of the guy with the retro jacket and the Buddy Holly glasses.
its not just the definitions, its the aesthetic of the band also. if youre not a real fan of this type of music you wont get it. its the same as when fucking techno fans try to seperate genres, anyone who doesnt listen to that shit all the time wont get it. so if you dont listen to emo or are a fan of the real bands involved dont bother cos its pointless.
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planes mistaken are definitely post-hardcore, even back when. what i meant was, we were talking about genre classifications and how much it annoys you when people got it wrong, and you sorta maybe got it wrong. not being whiney or anything, i just wanted you to know. but yeah, we cleared it up, now i can go back to the sandbox where it's safe.
there are some lines that are fuzzy (like the line between emo and post-hardcore), I generally don't quibble about those classifications, my main complaint was that someone asked what emo was, and everyone said "pop punk bands that whine about girls."
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But seriously. The reason I have a strong dislike for the general emo scene - yes, even the "true good emo" bands - is that at least 95% of them came from rich white families from the suburbs, and got guitar lessons paid for by their parents, and yet at the same time they're complaining about life.
Yes, everyone has some aspect of life that's shit, but I feel like maybe they should step back, and look at other people's lives. Like say, Kuwait, with that whole genocide thing? Or maybe even those famous starving children in Africa (Stereotypical as it is, it still is a problem, and very few people seem intereseted in doing anything about it). And they're complaining about their life?
maybe you didn't notice, but a lot of the bands I listed are very political, and while some of them do speak of pain, they're not exactly "complaining." A lot of it is very hopeful and positive about the basic goodness of life.
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Strike Anywhere ...I don't hear them going on about girls they've lost.
Ditto for Paint it Black.
That's exactly my point.
But half of PIB's new album is a metaphor for Dan Yemin's divorce.
I've never heard that idea about Paradise before, but I'd like to hear where you did.
If the definition we're using of emo is music with emotion then that pretty much makes most groups out there emo.
You are still missing the point. Emo does NOT mean "music with emotion" but it also if all a band does is whine about girls and feeling lonely, then that is NOT emo either. The original emo movement grew out of 80's hardcore bands that got sick of meatheaded aspects of the scene, and branched into a blending of the personal and the political (which whether or not they realized it, is a core tenet of a large school of thought in modern sociology, especially academic feminism).
Do you like Minor Threat? Then go here and buy this http://www.dischord.com/store?action=showRel&relNumber=24 And then you will have a start on where emo came from.
And as for Paint It Black, I can't remember where I first heard it, but read this-
PAINT IT BLACK'S follow up to their urgent and trouncing CVA is epic in comparison. Not simply in terms of song length, but more importantly in terms of subject matter. Paradise contains all the mile-a-minute passion of the last release coupled with a more thematic tone, exploring the personal pains of divorce, the more global concerns of war and how the two are hopelessly intertwined. The end result is a heroic look inward and ultimately a catharsis guised in uncompromising intensity and spirit.
And by the way, about half the songs on PIB's first album were about Dan Yemin's stroke. CVA stands for "Cardio Vascular Accident," the medical term for a stroke. Can't get much more personal than that. PIB is an emo band. Because emo is a type of hardcore.
I define emo as "somewhat slow vaugely indie or punk rock music relating, and exclusively so to heartbreak". And yes, I'm well aware of emo's origins, however seeing as the recent stuff is more pervasive i consider that emo, and the "original" stuff early emo.
Addtionally, seeing as less and less emo bands talk about anything truly worth crying over, i'd argue that when something truly worth crying over happens to someone (ala Hot Water Music's near loss of a guitarrist or Yemin's stroke) it stops being emo.
Paint it Black IS a hardcore band. No if ands or buts about it. I asked Yemin myself. Certaintly there's personal stuff there but when your CD ends with a song like Memorial Day and begins with Election Day, that's political.
In short, its all in the defintion. Since you seem to be kicking around the term emo properly, I'll agree with you, we just use different terminology.
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That seems a really crappy way of looking at it. Just take all the hard work people did creating a sound, its name and scene, something new. And just ripping it away and handing it over to nice comfortable mass media stereotypes. Be alright if the two where actually realated and it was just a change in the music rather than the work of media. But it's clear why I'd think this and it's a personal annoyance.
Ok, I clearly need tea, that was far to bitter for this time of day.
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I define emo as "somewhat slow vaugely indie or punk rock music relating, and exclusively so to heartbreak".
i'd argue that when something truly worth crying over happens to someone (ala Hot Water Music's near loss of a guitarrist or Yemin's stroke) it stops being emo.
well, then you're just plain wrong. I say that with a smile on my face, a warm heart towards your contributions to this discussion, and an appreciation of the rest of your last post, but I'm still serious.
I know it will never happen, but I'd just like for whenever anyone who doesn't know about emo asks, that instead fo just being told about the mainstream definition of emo, someone would very quickly say "Well, there's what emo really is, but you're probably thikning of all this other stuff that really isn't emo at all." Because, seriously, emo is one badly abused term.
Like what if the mainstream press continually referred to bands like Matchbox 20 and Three Doors Down as "indie rock." Eventually, the Average Joe On The Street would think of those bands as being textbook cases of indie rock. Does that make it so?
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That seems a really crappy way of looking at it. Just take all the hard work people did creating a sound, its name and scene, something new. And just ripping it away and handing it over to nice comfortable mass media stereotypes. Be alright if the two where actually realated and it was just a change in the music rather than the workd of media. But it's clear why I'd think this and it's a personal annoyance.
Ok, I clearly need tea, that was far to bitter for this time of day.
::applause::
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As a Metalhead I can not stand for media defacing of good music like that. The media tells people stuff about music and most of it as a lie. People here would throw a damn fit if that happend to Indie so they should show some respect. I'm not even that big a fan of Emo but still, I've learnt about what real Emo is, listend to stuff and the connecting stuff I actually enjoy. I know find well the problems the music and the fans face...and the fact of generally being spit on and robbed by the media and the public.
Yeah it's a personal rant. But I'm sure people here hate when The Liberteens and The Killers get called Indie and if someone suggested that because that's the current media face of Indie music, that's what it should be.
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But I'm sure people here hate when The Liberteens and The Killers get called Indie.
I almost listed a bunch of bands from the billboard top 20 modern rock singles, adn asked if they were indie just because the mainstream media said so, but I was almost afraid that people here would say, "Yes, Incubus, Foo Fighters, Weezer, The Bravery, My Chemical Romance, and The Killers are all indie bands."
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I dont give a toss if the killers are indie or not, i like them all the same. If you like something, listen to it. If you dont, then dont.
Labelling music is increasingly more and more pointless. This is a circular argument thats not going to get anywhere.
Stupid people listen to stupid music. Emo has its crap pop bands, punk has its crap pop bands, and so does every other genre, because idiocy knows no limits.
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Actually, if you listen to any band signed to a major, we don't speak to you round here.
Go away now, corporate whore.
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Nice pot shot at the stereotypical and incorrect massmedia idea of Emo.
Nah man, I'm just sick of the emo discussion you know? It's been going on for about 2-3 years now, it's just tired. Whatever though, I guess the smart thing to do would be to just stay out of this discussion. Too bad I was never one to be intelligent about things.
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I just think its kinda sad people have to bicker over it rather than accept that people classify things differently. What I label as "indie", for example, someone else may call something completely different. Okay, fine.
I mostly label things for my own convenience and how I remember it and make it easier to find things on my computer. It seems a lot of people stick labels to bands just to sound like more of a music elitist by adding hyphens. Okay, fine. But to me, your post-hardcore-thrash-viking-metal is just metal.
Anyone that wants to argue over post-hardcore-thrash-viking-metal is just an ass and proving my point.
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Threads like this around the board make me thing that Emo is now one of the most misunderstand, mislabelled and least really known about genres...
Ding Ding, we have a winner.
Emo (an abbreviation of "emotionally-driven Hardcore punk" or just "emotional-hardcore") is a term now broadly used to describe almost any form of guitar-driven alternative rock that expresses emotions beyond traditional punk's limited emotional palette of alienation and rage. It is also used to describe fans of this genre, most commonly teenagers (emo kids). The actual term "emo" originated in the mid-1980s D.C. scene, with the band Rites of Spring, as well as bands such as Fugazi, Moss Icon, and Antioch Arrow. The term addressed both the way the band connected with its audience, as well as its tendency to deal more with topics of personal and relationship politics than with the standard themes of rock music.
For what wikipedia is worth I think that is a fairly accurate definition, I'd add that it's power chord driven alternative rock. The word emo has become so misused since the rise of Jimmy Eat World and the music of the late-90's and early naughties that today it means anyone with a guitar who can whine.
The lesson we can learn. Genre definitions are useless, don't bother with them, they vary from person to person and band to band. Scenes are even more useless as they become the basis for pretention.
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Since I think Mnementh was writing that post while I was writing mine, I'll agree with everything said.
I'd also like add that genres usually have a specific sound. A lot of artists today vary their sound even on a single album that pigeon-holing someone into a single genre seems next to impossible.
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post-hardcore-thrash-viking-metal
Would that be post-hardcore with thrashy viking metal, post hardcore/thrash with viking metal influences, or something that comes after hardcore-thrash-viking?
Also, although this is an over the top example, people oftem hold music close to their heart, so, every-time you call alt-whine rock 'emo' imagine you just called everyone in Ireland a member of the IRA.
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The lesson we can learn. Genre definitions are useless, don't bother with them, they vary from person to person and band to band. Scenes are even more useless as they become the basis for pretention.
Maybe to some people, but not to all. Nice of you to come down and say no one can use them when some people and scenes work rather well with them thank you very much. I dont see how stuff based on musical styles and ideas can change that much from band to band...especially when some bands carve out a sound that clear yes/no lines for their music.
Screw it, I like to live in my little stamp collecting world you know? Means I can't just passively sit there like some brainless meatbag and let some bland and tepid music wash over me and live in happy bunny and media land where everything in safe and calm and I dont have to think about my music or analyise or be challegend or have a brain. I like to be able to compear it it, think about, see how it matches up with it peers, how it works and more stuff along those lines.
And what's so bad about a band setting out to play that one style or a maybe two or three styles, of music and playing it? Seems to work find for lots and lots of bands.
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Also, although this is an over the top example, people oftem hold music close to their heart, so, every-time you call alt-whine rock 'emo' imagine you just called everyone in Ireland a member of the IRA.
Nice one.
On the subject of genres, I think they're good to a certain extent.
Greenday is pop-punk, Iron Maiden is Heavy Metal. Simple. I just get a little bit annoyed when people start saying things like " post-hardcore-thrash-viking-metal"
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Right, I've got no problem with that sort of view. That's the view of someone that likes music, knows a little bit about it..can tell things apart and that's all it needs to do. It's there to let you know what the music sounds like. So you only ever need to go so far. Something like say "Folk infleuenced Ambient Electronica" something with a little more detail when you get more varied bands or groups doing things a little differently. And even I will say there can be overkill in genre descriptions..even for the most hardcore users. Comes a point when you should just give up and just call in "Experimental" whatever or something along those lines.
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Just clearing something up, I don't like Green Day and Iron Madien (much...)
Also, I do understand music, very well infact. I could compose a classical guitar piece off the top of my head easy. You have to really know an instrument to do that.
I'm a bit annoyed at how you seem to think I don't know much about the thing that I want to spend the rest of my life doing just becasue I can't describe a band's genre in more then four words...
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I'm a bit annoyed at how you seem to think I don't know much about the thing that I want to spend the rest of my life doing just becasue I can't describe a band's genre in more then four words...
I second that.
I have no problems in someone describing the sound of a band with long chains of adjectives, but it in no way should then be a genre.
I dont see how stuff based on musical styles and ideas can change that much from band to band...
There's a lot of music out there you should listen to sometime.
Screw it, I like to live in my little stamp collecting world you know? Means I can't just passively sit there like some brainless meatbag and let some bland and tepid music wash over me and live in happy bunny and media land where everything in safe and calm and I dont have to think about my music or analyise or be challegend or have a brain. I like to be able to compear it it, think about, see how it matches up with it peers, how it works and more stuff along those lines.
I don't even know where to start with this paragraph...
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As someone pointed out, you can't really pigeon hole people into genres, very few bands are that shallow.
Also, I had a funny thought at work today as I was humming "I Want You To Want Me" in my head (Live at Budoken of course). By todays definition, Cheap Trick is definitely emo. That just amused me.
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But music genres are so much fun! Plus, if you went 'pop-punk is pop-punk' then Screeching Weasel=Avril Lavigne, and if 'heavy metal is heavy metal' then Motley Crue=Cryptic Wintermoon.
You can't just dismiss genres. Especially if you want to find more music in the style of your favourite bands off your own bat.
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ASturge was that aimed at me....because that wasn't the point of what I was trying to say about that comment. I was saying you where right and in that you can say things simply like "Iron Mainden is Heavy Metal" And that's says/shows you understand the music and what it's about. And that there is overkill and you dont really need a huge long genre desc because that's not the point alot of the time.
Is the "knows a little bit about it" point?...Which I ment to men music as a whole. As in, knowing Heavy Metal from Nu Metal, Hardcore from Death Metal, Trance from House, etc, etc. Knowing a lot in detail about your chosen likes and about musical technicallity is another issue.
Mechorg, that's was based off what I listen to you know. Maybe it evloved very different from what you listen to. And maybe the level of change we're on about is different. I listen to genres that span 20, 30 years. You can look at how stuff changes...how bands work on the building blocks, change the way ideas work and stuff. I take it point about being subjective to mean a band looking at a style of music and saying "no, that's not x at all" and throwing it all away to do something different that's apprently still x.
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Plus, if you went 'pop-punk is pop-punk' then Screeching Weasel=Avril Lavigne, and if 'heavy metal is heavy metal' then Motley Crue=Cryptic Wintermoon.
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EXACTLY
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http://fourfa.com
go here for an opinionated, but pretty accurate description of emo and its subgenres, its ok for people who nothing about the movement.
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The only point I was trying to make, Robbo, is that a simple genre such as 'emo' or 'metal' or 'alternative' or the like can be so objective that arguing over a sound of a certain genre is rediculous because many people can view it differently.
I think its just hard to understand what you are saying in your posts sometimes.
I don't mind using words to describe music, like Khar said to find other music you like, but don't name it as a genre. Just be more descriptive and actually talk about the music. Don't just try to simplify thinks and stick a genre to it.
If someone asks what a band sounds like, don't just say "oh, they are emo"... maybe the person that asked wants to know a little more about the sound.
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WHAT ABOUT MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE? DASHBOARD CONFESSIONAL? RYAN CABRARA? NEW FOUND GLORY?
Fuck, get your emo straight.
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I don't mind using words to describe music, like Khar said to find other music you like, but don't name it as a genre. Just be more descriptive and actually talk about the music. Don't just try to simplify thinks and stick a genre to it.
If someone asks what a band sounds like, don't just say "oh, they are emo"... maybe the person that asked wants to know a little more about the sound.
But surely that IS the genre? Isn't this whole THREAD about NOT just saying 'oh, they are emo'?
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i think that genres are useful as a rather broad way of defining a band. but after a while you have to start saying things like "oh, they are emo/pop-punk/heavy metal/whatever genre and the guitars in it sound a little like band1 and the singer reminds me of that dude from band2" etc.
not writing off genres as a good way to quickly narrow down a band's sound, just saying that maybe a lot of people take them too seriously.
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Hey, est....just because you don't know people that can't keep it undercontrol with genres...doesn't mean everyone is like that ok? And not all genres are THAT board. If it's an issue of detail, should just be left to actuall describing the band.
Eg: What does band "XZY sound like?" Short answer: "They're genre PQ" "Ok, they got any fine details or influences?" Long answer "Well, they draw the odd thing from genre PR on this album..and the guitars used to like like band ABC but now they sound more like DCA"
It's a case of what detail you need to talk about a band. I'm gonna try to make an example here. I'm gonna use Metal so live with it. Some genres are big and complex...and you've all heard me and Khar talk about how Metal. But saying a band is just "Metal" is like saying someone lives in New York. So if you want more detail, you start on subgenres...which narrow the field, give a little more detail. Say if a band is Progressive Death Metal or Symphonic Black Metal...would be the same as do they live in Queens ot Manhattan? Maybe you could get another level of detail in after that....But by that point....you'd know the ball park. So if you wanted more info...you'd actually be describing the band. Like what combinations of styles they actually use, how the sound compeared to other bands in that subgenre and where they sit in relation to other genres. Would come to saying what sort of building the person lives in...and where the building is in relation to the surrounding areas.
Yeah...forgive me lack of knowledge of NY...but I hope that makes a better picture.
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so objective that arguing over a sound of a certain genre is rediculous because many people can view it differently.
before I joined this board I NEVER saw so many people get objective and subjective totally backawards.
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Eg: What does band "XZY sound like?" Short answer: "They're genre PQ" "Ok, they got any fine details or influences?" Long answer "Well, they draw the odd thing from genre PR on this album..and the guitars used to like like band ABC but now they sound more like DCA"
Are XYZ any good? I heard ABC's last album and it was pretty good, and I saw DCA when they were touring off their second album back in 2001 and that show was serously tight. Seriously, though, ABC's more RT nowadays than PQ. I think their guitarist did a bit too much acid after their third LP.
Okay, I'm fucking with you.
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XYZ are awesome dude! It has ex members of LMNOP
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Oh. Eh. LMNOP were sort of poppy and uninspired. I never really understood the fascination. They always seemed to me to be a watered down version of FXT.
I feel dirty. Dirty like a hipster.
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XYZ are awesome dude! It has ex members of LMNOP
dangit, now I may have to dig up my LMNOP 7". I was a big fan of that guy's zine around 2000, but I can't remember exactly what his band sounded like.
I am actually not joking.
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I dont think this is too far off topic, so il not start another thread...
I have a problem. I have a friend that listens to some pretty awful emo, and hasnt heard anything but the crappy stuff. Ive introduced him to sunny day real estate, since thats the closest thing to proper emo that i like and am familier with.
Bassically, he needs re-educating, and i need some suggestions, since i honestly dont know squat about good emo. Suggest specific albums and songs if you can..
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so objective that arguing over a sound of a certain genre is rediculous because many people can view it differently.
before I joined this board I NEVER saw so many people get objective and subjective totally backawards.
Wow, i can't believe i did that. I guess I got confused in all the philosophical discussions in other threads.
I've been having a bad week, so I have a feeling i've been trying to argue more than was necessary. This thread is about emo, not a whole discussion on whether genres are over-analyzed. I see why people label the music they listen to and I probably do it just as much as everybody else. But I also think some people don't have the same idea when it comes down to sub-genres or just aren't educated enough to seperate things properly.
To use Robbo's analogy (and i, too, lack a specific knowledge of NYC), sure you can narrow it down to Queens or Manhattan... but what if some people say Queens starts at 8th Street and others say it starts at 11th Street. Genres don't have specific lines seperating them and a gang war seems to start when the boundaries are stretched.
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I dont think this is too far off topic, so il not start another thread...
I have a problem. I have a friend that listens to some pretty awful emo, and hasnt heard anything but the crappy stuff. Ive introduced him to sunny day real estate, since thats the closest thing to proper emo that i like and am familier with.
Bassically, he needs re-educating, and i need some suggestions, since i honestly dont know squat about good emo. Suggest specific albums and songs if you can..
Small Brown Bike - Our Own Wars
Jawbreaker - 24 Hour Revenge Therapy
Husker Du - New Day Rising
Casket Lottery - possiblies and maybes
Saetia - A Retrospective
.. and I don't really consider this band to be emo... but close enough and good enough to recomend but tell this person to pick up Waxwing - Nobody Can Take What Everybody Owns
6 of the best emo albums ever.
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Mechorg, you do have a point. But then only so many bands are gonna sit on those edges. But that's where the fun can be, when you have to do some musical dective work to see how it all breaks down. What I generally see happen is it either comes down to "band sits between X and Y..can't really tell the bits apart, all sounds good though." or it's "band sits betweem X and Y, the X bit is great, but they need to cut the Y parts because they suck".
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One reason I get picky about what is and isn't emo is that to me hardcore is/should be a countercultural movement as well as a musical genre. So bands which don't fit with that movement at all being tagged emo (which is a subgenre of hardcore and not something apart from it) is damaging to that, and the same goes for a lot of the bands that get called metalcore.
On the subject of good emo recommendations to wean someone onto it, I'd say go for some classics:
Embrace - Embrace
Rites of Spring - Rites of Spring
Dag Nasty - Can I Say
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Hey, est....just because you don't know people that can't keep it undercontrol with genres...doesn't mean everyone is like that ok? And not all genres are THAT board. If it's an issue of detail, should just be left to actuall describing the band.
to me "describing the band" is best done by comparing them to others. maybe you have a better musical vocabulary than i and are able to describe the sound of guitars, drums and vocals without reference to other bands, i don't know. maybe i didn't express myself properly in my post, i mean i agree with what you just wrote and think to myself that that is pretty much what i was trying to say.
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Hmmm, comparing a band to others only works if the person you're telling knows that sort of music. Now, in most cases that's all fine and well because they might well do. But if I tried to describe say Xasthur to you...I might well start of saying "Well, they're a type of Black Metal" and you'd quickly say "What's Black Metal?"*
I guess, it's like trying to describe an object someone's never seen before, like a tree to an alien creature..if you didn't have a tree to show them, you could get all the big things across if they spoke English couldn't you? Be like saying if the music if fast or slow, what sort of tone it uses, what instruments, how they are in the mix, thick or thin sounds, how they play, do they do tech/solo stuff or not, etc, etc. And if the alien knew what some trees where like but not others...you could fill in the fine details with comparison.
Sorry for all the crappy examples, but I'm trying to keep on safe non-musical ground here.
*Yes I'm making a sweeping judgement by assuming you don't Black Metal, but it's a quick and dirty example.
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To use Robbo's analogy (and i, too, lack a specific knowledge of NYC), sure you can narrow it down to Queens or Manhattan... but what if some people say Queens starts at 8th Street and others say it starts at 11th Street.
Aha, but the thiing here is that most of the time when people say that bands like Rufio and Bayside are emo, it's not that they are somewhere on the border between Brooklyn and Queens (which are right next to each other on Long Island). It's more like real emo is in Manhattan (which is on a totally different island from Queens and Brooklyn) and all those bands that get called emo in SPIN Magazine are in Vermont.
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Somewhat back on topic, I'm finally getting aroudn to giving the Embrace album a listen. Not overly my thing, rather perfere Emotional Hardcore, but it's still miles better than media "emo"
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Threads like this spawn stupid ones like this:
http://forums.questionablecontent.net/viewtopic.php?t=6374
I really hope you all know that.
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incorrect.
about a billion threads like this lead to me putting up something like that so that we don't have every second person stumbling into the forum asking the same question over and over again like we used to.
also: thanks for the PM telling me why you thought it was stupid and how i could make it better.