THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)
Fun Stuff => BAND => Topic started by: Amiku0ot on 02 Apr 2006, 22:26
-
Hey guys Ive been doing some thinking about indie hipster elitism for a paper I'm working on, from my own experience and some of the reading I've done it seems like a largely male phenomenon. Has this been your experience? Any ideas why this is?
-
because we all have this crazy dumb competitive streak and constantly fell the need to impress anyone and everyone around us in anyway we can ?
also the more underground the bands you like are the bigger your schlong is. ;)
-
you know, i wrote a paper on indie hipster elitism before anyone even knew what it was. geez, get with it.
umm, i think it is a bit of a boy's club but i've yet to meet anyone who has been a real ass about it. the occasional *gasp* you've never heard of {insert name of band that sounds like dying animal here} comments but once you point out that you have a social life, and the hipster does not it usually ends.
-
Men will always try to compete with eachother. They don't call it "Whippin out yr indie rock cock" for nothing when two guys are trying to out name drop eachother to establish a hierachy. On the other end of things I'd say that in my experience Iowa City's hipster population seems to be split about 50/50 between the sexes. The whole idea of trying to write a paper about hipster elitism seems rather ironic to me.
-
I agree with it being a male thing, if I'm talking with a girl who is inot indie and she mentions a band I don't know she'll try to describe it and maybe burn me a cd, trying to share. With boys it's more of an attempt to impress.
-
On the contrary I find it much more of a retard phenomenon. Atleast they're not trying to sound intelligible by having political conversations.
-
I don't talk about my personal life with anyone but my mother.
-
My experience is by no means extensive but I haven't really seen it all that much. As a general rule the kids I've met who are into indie music (including myself) want to introduce you to music- show any interest and they will play some or burn a cd as soon as possible. I'll voice my opinion about bad music but not any more agressively than a most people would if their friend started listening to 'Nsync or something. I've seen kids who tried to fake it be mocked mercilessly, but thats about it.
I'm sure it does exist but my guess is it has a reputation for being more extensive than it actually is.
-
the thing is, i know a lot of people that will do it jokingly so often that it just becomes what they do, and it's really obnoxious.
-
I think with girl hipsters it's not as much of a music elitism as an image eltism. At my university, there's a lot of girls with a pretentious "indier than thou" complex.
-
My experience is by no means extensive but I haven't really seen it all that much. As a general rule the kids I've met who are into indie music (including myself) want to introduce you to music- show any interest and they will play some or burn a cd as soon as possible. I'll voice my opinion about bad music but not any more agressively than a most people would if their friend started listening to 'Nsync or something. I've seen kids who tried to fake it be mocked mercilessly, but thats about it.
I'm sure it does exist but my guess is it has a reputation for being more extensive than it actually is.
i agree with this post.
-
Girls want bigger Indie Tits than you.
Let me say I fully endorse this.
-
Elitism in any musical genre is a total joke and I just ignore it. I like what I like, so they can fuck off.
-
So, to summarise:
Guys want bigger Indie Dongs than you.
Girls want bigger Indie Tits than you.
So let's see if I've got this right...Indie kids are looking down their noses at you because they're better endowed?
Except that girls seem to be a lot more secure with their indie endowment (indowment?) than dudes. That being said, I'm indie hung like an indie horse.
-
music is good. the people that make, listen to, and produce it....aren't.
*gasp*
if this makes sense to you then you are an elitist.
if it doesnt...then you are good people.
</simplification>
-
I was talking to Carrie Brownstein and blah blah blah blah blah
Is this a joke? I hope it's a joke.
-
music is good. the people that make, listen to, and produce it....aren't.
*gasp*
if this makes sense to you then you are an elitist.
if it doesnt...then you are good people.
</simplification>
You're pointing the finger at yourself by that logic.
(I was really hoping I could only read this topic).
-
It's an ego thing, like all those guys who can play guitar who think it makes them cool.
Then they try to show off and people laugh at them because they're crap.
"Yeah! I can totally pay the trooper! You know, Maiden? ROCK!"
*Downs an alcopop, nearly throws it all back up*
"EUGH! I mean...YEAH! Gimme nuther."
"Hey, why don't you play 'the trooper for us?"
"Uhhh...sure..."
*Butchers one or two notes that happen to be somewhere in the main riff for 'the trooper'*
"That was crap."
"Yeah...I can play it perfectly when there's nobody else around. You can sorta hear it, it's because of the amp. Yeah, the amp..."
Now, this may or may not be based on a guy I knew who thought he was a great guitarist but in actual fact, was crap.
Oh man, do I have stories about people like this.
And yeah, as Beat mouse said, they could be sitting in a coffeehouse discussing the parallels between Hitler's Germany and America today and be all like, "OH MAN WE'RE BEING OPPRESSED".
-
music is good. the people that make, listen to, and produce it....aren't.
*gasp*
if this makes sense to you then you are an elitist.
if it doesnt...then you are good people.
</simplification>
This intrigues me mathematically.
People who make, listen and produce music = just about everybody
By definition [People who this makes sense to] is a subset of [everybody]
So if [People who this makes sense to] = [good people]
then
[good people] = [people who realize they are not good]
Disprovedz0r3d!
-
On the contrary I find it much more of a retard phenomenon. Atleast they're not trying to sound intelligible by having political conversations.
Frequently, though, people tend to dabble in both, being equally stupid.
-
HA YES PEOPLE ARE STUPID AMIRITE LOL
-
Except that girls seem to be a lot more secure with their indie endowment (indowment?) than dudes. That being said, I'm indie hung like an indie horse.
It's endowment.
And on topic:
I am reminded of the QC comic where Faye and Marten are talking about how the greatest Indie rock band of all time can never be known because the less people that know about the band, the bigger the Indie cred, and also the one where Marten and Sven are comparing the size of their Indie penises.
-
Hey guys Ive been doing some thinking about indie hipster elitism for a paper I'm working on, from my own experience and some of the reading I've done it seems like a largely male phenomenon. Has this been your experience? Any ideas why this is?
You posted the same thing on the Pure Volume Alt. Rock forum.
http://www.purevolume.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=85707&start=0
-
you can find that in punk too. they're pretty heavy in the "that sucks cus they sold out" thing. i guess the competition is just another way of feeling involved and enjoying the scene. though, it does take away from the music.
-
It's endowment.
He was making a joke, indie+endowment=Indowment.
I have travelled the 17 corners of cyberspace in search of one who would, if not appreciate my jokes, at least recognize them, and lo! I have found such a one.
-
It's an ego thing, like all those guys who can play guitar who think it makes them cool.
Then they try to show off and people laugh at them because they're crap.
"Yeah! I can totally pay the trooper! You know, Maiden? ROCK!"
*Downs an alcopop, nearly throws it all back up*
"EUGH! I mean...YEAH! Gimme nuther."
"Hey, why don't you play 'the trooper for us?"
"Uhhh...sure..."
*Butchers one or two notes that happen to be somewhere in the main riff for 'the trooper'*
"That was crap."
"Yeah...I can play it perfectly when there's nobody else around. You can sorta hear it, it's because of the amp. Yeah, the amp..."
Now, this may or may not be based on a guy I knew who thought he was a great guitarist but in actual fact, was crap.
Oh man, do I have stories about people like this.
And yeah, as Beat mouse said, they could be sitting in a coffeehouse discussing the parallels between Hitler's Germany and America today and be all like, "OH MAN WE'RE BEING OPPRESSED".
See, there are plenty of people who talk about how crap Britain is, and actually have no idea how lucky we fucking are.
Go live in Serbia, mate. Then cry to me about the NHS. At least it fucking exists. Go to the US and pay for your healthcare.
-
you can find that in punk too. they're pretty heavy in the "that sucks cus they sold out" thing. i guess the competition is just another way of feeling involved and enjoying the scene. though, it does take away from the music.
Which is why most "punks" abandoned Green Day. In their defence, Warning WAS crap.
-
Nothing like a little Nazi Allegory to spice up a political argument. Never been done before, right? Right?
Look, indignant liberals, understand this: While no society is perfect, the USA (and other proper republics) are great because their ingrown ability to self-refine. Understand that your protest is towards polishing a rough edge in the system, not overthrowing it because it's a Fascist Police State. Also recognize that, while it is true that you have a right to assembly, the Police must walk a fine line between civil liberties and public order (the latter being their bloody job, for Christ's sake). If it really were as bad as you say, your livelihood, self-expression, and eventually your physical well-being would be stripped away systematically. If poverty hasn't done it already. But I digress.
Back on topic...
Elitism is okay as long as it is done for enrichment, and as long as it is at least somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Nee Ishkur. (http://www.di.fm/edmguide/edmguide.html)
-
Yeah, I love it when the silly kiddies exaggerate how their civli liberties are being taken away. It's like, shut the fuck up and go out and actually look at the world and realize how goddamn better off you are than a good portion of the planet.
-
you can find that in punk too. they're pretty heavy in the "that sucks cus they sold out" thing. i guess the competition is just another way of feeling involved and enjoying the scene. though, it does take away from the music.
Which is why most "punks" abandoned Green Day. In their defence, Warning WAS crap.
Punk is a joke. Selling records = evil according to punk these days, which is total bollocks.
What role models do you have from punk? Pistols? They were put together like a cheap boy band. Clash? How punk was London Calling, really? Ramones? Er, Phil Spector?
-
I thought the entire point of punk was to be a big, gigangtic joke.
A gigantic joke that can't play it's instruments.
-
Wait, so Punk is just like modern art.
-
Wait, so Punk is just like modern art.
Because modern art can't play instruments either?
-
I think with girl hipsters it's not as much of a music elitism as an image eltism. At my university, there's a lot of girls with a pretentious "indier than thou" complex.
it's the boys too round here. you go to gigs or clubs, or even just out in the street and everyone looks like walking clones, each more identical than the last in a bid to look cooler and "indier" than everyone else.
-
You know what would make them indier than everyone else? If they wore a top hat.
This would work for about a week.
-
music is good. the people that make, listen to, and produce it....aren't.
*gasp*
if this makes sense to you then you are an elitist.
if it doesnt...then you are good people.
</simplification>
This intrigues me mathematically.
People who make, listen and produce music = just about everybody
By definition [People who this makes sense to] is a subset of [everybody]
So if [People who this makes sense to] = [good people]
then
[good people] = [people who realize they are not good]
Disprovedz0r3d!
you got it backwards. if that phrase makes sense, then you are "holier than thou" and not a good person. if that phrase seems stupid to you, then you are a chill person.
hope that makes more sense
-
my post wasn't a joke as such. it was supposed to be amusing but the concept itself is fairly serious.
…maybe you disagree with specific points sir. if so, write them down and we could have a discussion about it. or you can pm me if you don't want to write it down here.
The argument itself is legitimate enough, I suppose. I just found it reasonably ironic that a post about elitism began with such blatant namedropping.
-
Except that girls seem to be a lot more secure with their indie endowment (indowment?) than dudes. That being said, I'm indie hung like an indie horse.
Amateur. I do the indie pole vault with what God gave me, and buy my indie socks in threes.
(Yes, I am aware that arguing about how elite one's elitism is is ironic. That's kind of the point.)
-
I have a collection of punk rock and techno on 78. My old-timey music doesn't even exist anymore so I keep it in the collective unconscious. My loft is at the top of the tower of babel and my front door is so pretenscious that it says "Knock" in a sarcastic tone two seconds before you rap on it. I once found some genuine old time Americana but in order to escape gentrification the guy lived in the middle of a river. Soon as he saw me he croaked and floated away never to be seen again though they did find some wax-cylinders when they dredged the bay that year.
-
Wait, so Punk is just like modern art.
Basically. I think that's actually a pretty good comparison. (But who am I to talk, seeing as I actually enjoy some punk.)
-
It's endowment.
He was making a joke, indie+endowment=Indowment.
That totally went over my head. I usually see people posting something like that, you know, with parenthesis and another spelling of the word, followed by a question mark, as a "I don't know how to spell this, do you know? type of thing.
Now that you've explained it, I think it's pretty funny, but it makes me feel dumb for not getting it when first presented. :\
-
Hey Spinless I did get your PM thank you and sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I think I agree with what you said, it’s a tricky topic but your observations certainly seem to make sense.
Thanks everyone for the posts they’ve been really helpful in my research for this paper.
If anyone is interested one of the best books I’ve found on the subject is “Sexing the Groove” edited by Sheila Whiteley specifically the article “Sizing Up Record Collections: Gender and Connoisseurship in rock music culture” by Will Straw.
-
Indie Elitism kicks ass, that's why I do it!
-
I got accused of indie elitism for saying Pavement was better than Death Cab For Cutie (don't ask me how that comparison came up; it was pretty ridiculous), because the person said I obviously just liked them because they're obscure. Man, what the hell?
And yeah, Indie elitism is pretty uncool. I'll often make fun of music jokingly, including music I listen to myself, citing actual reasons for making fun of it, but it's just in fun. People like what they like.
-
Which is obscure? Pavement or Death Cab? Both are shit, neither are obscure. BAM. THERE'S YOUR EMERIL-ISM
-
Y'all got it wrong. siobhan won the thread before it even began.
you know, i wrote a paper on indie hipster elitism before anyone even knew what it was. geez, get with it.
-
Okay, how the fuck did I completely miss that? I guess I just stopped reading at ""I wrote a paper..."
-
Which is obscure? Pavement or Death Cab? Both are shit, neither are obscure. BAM. THERE'S YOUR EMERIL-ISM
By the context of the sentence and the magic of reading, you should have been able to figure that out. The buffoon was trying to say Pavement was obscure. I obviously thought that was ridiculous, hence "what the hell?" and entire my reason for telling the story.
IN CONCLUSION SO OBVIUSLY U R DUM N THATS Y U DUNT LIEK PAVEMENT
-
Maybe the buffoon was right though. I mean, in our little circle of kewlness Pavement and Death Cab are equally well known, but out in the real world? I dunno...
-
Have either of you been to a high school lately? I'm pretty sure I could walk down the halls and find a pretty large portion of people who know about both. and this is high school. You know, there place where everybody listens to shit because they're stupid high school kids?
-
Maybe the buffoon was right though. I mean, in our little circle of kewlness Pavement and Death Cab are equally well known, but out in the real world? I dunno...
Yeah, but that's a downside, because you can't talk about music with someone who hasn't heard of any of the stuff you like. I should know. I like music that practically nobody my age listens to, so I try to go off talking about it, and end up with blank stares and not getting laid. Liking obscure music is frustrating, not something to be proud of.
-
Have either of you been to a high school lately? I'm pretty sure I could walk down the halls and find a pretty large portion of people who know about both. and this is high school. You know, there place where everybody listens to shit because they're stupid high school kids?
All I can say is that you go to a much cooler high school than I've ever heard of. Most of my fellow college students that listen to Death Cab give me blank stares when I talk about any band that hasn't been featured on the OC
-
Most of my fellow college students that listen to Death Cab give me blank stares when I talk about any band that hasn't been featured on the OC
Now you know how I feel when I mention Furniture or Destroy All Monsters to my friends who attend college. Growing old is no good thing.
-
Oh pshaw. I like contemporary concert music and jazz. I can't even talk about the biggest, most famous composers/artists, because people are completely unfamiliar with both genres. And I don't even look cool knowing obscure bands, I just look like a complete, stuffy dork.
-
yes, but you're a jazz dork, which puts you a good head or so above the avant garde nerd kids*
*like me. (I love jazz, can't say I'm too super knowing on the obscure stuff).
-
Wait, so Punk is just like modern art.
Basically. I think that's actually a pretty good comparison. (But who am I to talk, seeing as I actually enjoy some punk.)
And I like certain select bits of modern art. So it's all good.
I've found that with most genres, eventually everyone's metaphorical cock is going to be shorter. I know some you don't, you know some I don't, that dude seems to live a monastic existence finding every practictioner of the style and categorizing them with razor-sharp genre distinctions.
So just learn to use the piece you have and, if you find something that expands it a bit, more power to you. I feel silly if I try to namedrop with serious listeners of IDM, hip-hop, Jungle, Trance, or whatever. This is why we just need to both load up a playlist, hit shuffle, and go on a long road trip so we have to listen to it.
-
Punks not really like modern art at all. The reasons for producing punk are often entirely different, and the audience enjoy it for entirely different reasons. Punk is egalitarian, modern art is elitist. Punk is outsider, Modern art is insider. The only thing they really share is the fact that they are normally either about making a political/social point, being staggeringly offensive, or both.
Oh yes, and punk is also good. If you don't enjoy any punk, you need to go and have a medical test to ensure you've still got enough adrenalin. If you're an indie kid, listening to a slew of horribly lo-fi rock and alt-folk bands, and praising their three chord pop sensibilities, and you don't like any punk, you may possibly die of a hideous combination of hypocrisy, bad taste and me beating you to death with a shoe.
-
I don't find this thread going anywhere. Many contributors to this thread are elitists themselves (which is fine), but in their criticisms are ignorant of the complex interplay between independent music spirit and the elitism that springs up around it. "Indie music" and "indie culture" are indeed two separate and easily-confused concepts, each ill-defined at that (let me get it out of the way, I can probably be accused of appreciation of elements of both, but I don't like association with either). I'm getting pretty sick of the term "indie music" as it evolves as convenient identifier for whichever set of styles mainstream media thinks it can package and sell as "indie". It's not even a fucking genre-- what many call indie music these days often falls into the genres of Lo-Fi, Psychedelic Pop, Baroque Pop, Postmodern Rock, Emo, Twee Pop, Post-Punk Revival, New Wave Revival, Garage Rock Revival (3rd wave) New Folk, No Depression (also called Alt-Country) and some Electropop... and IT ALL SOUNDS DIFFERENT, PEOPLE.
What we call "Indie" isn't supposed to be elitist, but audiences associated with the music often make it so. You're not supposed to like Pavement if you don't enjoy it (I hate it), and Pavement doesn't give a shit how cool they are. I mean, where culture is concerned, I find it funny that people choose criticism of the elitism of "indie culture" and its trappings, yet talk with such reverence and obvious feelings of superiority about groups for whom they have obviously subjective affection for. Were you picked on by Guided by Voices fans as a child, or something? I wouldn't be surprised-- that Bob Pollard birthed a generation of shitty indie fratboys.
Long story short: it doesn't matter. They're all the same, we're all the same. The truth is "you" don't like whatever you think "indie" is, and I think "your" music is terrible. Friends.
PS: Metal blows.
-
^^ there's your indie elitism right there.
-
So, to summarise:
Guys want bigger Indie Dongs than you.
Girls want bigger Indie Tits than you.
So let's see if I've got this right...Indie kids are looking down their noses at you because they're better endowed?
Except that girls seem to be a lot more secure with their indie endowment (indowment?) than dudes. That being said, I'm indie hung like an indie horse.
I'll go ahead and admit I have a small cock.
Er.... INDIE cock.
-
I got confused for a sec and thought the Makeout Hobo was admitting to a small dick. I was all like WHAAAAA
-
I got confused for a sec and thought the Makeout Hobo was admitting to a small dick. I was all like WHAAAAA
Nah man, I was a hobo before hoboing was cool.
-
I'm getting pretty sick of the term "indie music" as it evolves as convenient identifier for whichever set of styles mainstream media thinks it can package and sell as "indie".
I really agree with this. I remember looking at the MTV website a few months back (I have no idea why but there goes my indie cred) and was really confused to find an entire section dedicated to "indie".
Even though it was never a real genre the term used to say something about your music taste: that you cared about music enough to discover and pursue stuff that wasn't played on the radio or tv. That you might have some unique taste that wasn't the same as everyone elses. The word "indie" described the process of making, selling and listening to music- not the actual music itself. Now days, if someone says "I like indie music" the response is usually "oh, like the Postal Service?"
Most genre names tend to survive commodification. Khar can still say "I listen to Metal" and mean something by it even though he probably doesn't mean Linkin Park. Since the word "metal" actually describes a particular aesthetic and form it's still useful even if its been commodified. The word indie, once its been commodified ceases to signify ANYTHING.
So heres the question: will the term "indie" still be used by anyone five years from now? If not, will some term replace it as a way to describe music that isn't played on the radio and television or sold by major labels (like the word indie replaced the word "alternative")? What would that term be? Or have we reached a point where we've moved past ridiculous genre names and can just appreciate music without labeling it?
-
I agree. The term indie has gotten to bug me. At times it can help lend to the description of music, but more often than not it's just useless. In its good and most understandable context, I guess indie is basically supposed to mean that the music has more depth and is more artistic and, somehow, somewhat more original than most "mainstream" music. This is the definition I tend to think of when I hear "indie". In its bad context, it seems to mean it's barely listenable elitist garbage that you have to be cool to like. But now any band that's virtually unknown (which, last I checked, was how just about every band has started) can be classified as Indie purely for that reason.
-
I think indie is this generation's "alternative". Before the big alternative rock scene in the early and mid 90's, the word was used in proper context. That is; an alternative to the accepted norms, something "other-than". The word was used as a sort of generalization as opposed to being a specification. Once a certain style of music ("alternative rock") became popularized, a specification was needed for purely marketing purposes. You can’t sell a product without a description for said product. "Alternative Rock" was born out of a desire to regain the credibility of mainstream music within the youth culture because an honest to god alternative did exist. This subculture was a huge mass of people not giving money to big name music distributors providing - in essence - the very same service. Of course this was frustrating to those people who were making music for music's sake. The result was a group of like minded people doing their thing independently of the marketers who commodified their previous attempts. The same cycle repeats itself with a new moniker. I honestly believe this elitism is born of a fear of this process of commodification.
-
it's funny how often time makes you completely disagree with yourself after a while.
It's like how I used to think McDonalds tasted good!?
-
I got confused for a sec and thought the Makeout Hobo was admitting to a small dick.
He's the Littlest Hobo. <evil>
-
with me it was pot noodles.
i used to eat pot noodles.
I don’t know what pot noodles are, but if they're anything like pot stickers...or just pot for that matter, sign me up.
-
Indie Elitism is still better than Metal Elitism because it doesn't go hand in hand with vehement racism.
... or does it?
DUN DUN DUUUUNNN
-
You mean worse than metal elitism because of vehement racism.
Dun duh DUNNNNNNNNN!!!!!
-
Hey! Amiku0ot! I know something you don't know! I know something you don't know! I know something you don't know!
That's all you really need to do for a paper on indie elitism. All in all, it would make a much better underground play involving 3 socially inept 4 year olds, talking about tigers or something. Then, one of them can say, "I know something you don't know," and then they can all squirm until he finishes. "Cory and the Wades just broke up so that Cory could go to College and become a Stock Broker."
(If any of you know Cory and the Wades, you are a rotten liar or you know me personally. If you are a rotten liar and say you know "Cory and the Wades", you are an awesome indie elitist.)
-
A paper on indie elitism?
Alot of seems all about style. And that's lame. I dunno..I feel alot of people are posers and just follow the style. I feel like I know people who don't look as scene all the time, but who are just way chiller and into the music than the fashionistas. To me these people are the true indie kids. What ever that means lol.