THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)
Fun Stuff => ENJOY => Topic started by: LiterSize on 05 Apr 2006, 14:43
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What are some fave deaths from the cinema? heroic and whatnot.
Leon from The Professional?
Obi-wan kenobi?
Boromir?
Data?
Bruce Willis in Armageddon? (STOP THROWING STUFF AT ME!)
Vasquez in "Aliens"?
Discuss![/i]
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Donnie Darko- Donnie Darko
Mr. Orange (Freddie Newandyke)- Reservoir Dogs
The Snakes- Snake on a Plane
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Boromir
that was gonna be my suggestion
erm, lets see... ah ! the iron giant !
(but he got better in the end)
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Chupones' top 5 heroic movie deaths (of films he's seen, excluding LiterSize's excellent suggestions...)
5. Cold Mountain
4. Amen
3. Life is Beautiful
2. Braveheart
1. Gladiator
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Vasquez is a good one. Neo in Matrix Revolutions?
Uhm... Leonardo DiCaprio in Titanic (please don't throw things at me - it was a shitty film, but he did die heroically)
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dillon in alien3 was pretty heroic in that classic self sacrifice kind of way
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I'd say about 75% heroic and 150% badass would be Sgt. Elias Grodin (Willem Dafoe) in Platoon.
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Jack Vincennes in L.A. Confidential. So jarring! And his last words are pure redemption.
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Mr. Crowe in Gladiator.
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John Wayne in The Cowboys
David Carradine in Kill Bill v.2
The entire American Idol cast and crew in this years season finale
I can dream can't I?
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Leonardo DiCaprio in Titanic (please don't throw things at me - it was a shitty film, but he did die heroically)
It would've been more heroic if he'd died sooner.
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Me and my friends call this a "Blaze of Glory". Most notably of these include:
Leon - The Professional (I know this was mentioned before, but still)
John W. Creasy - Man on Fire
Nameless - Hero
Li Mu Bai - Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
Spike - Cowboy Bebop (I'm not a big anime fan, but this one is pretty good)
Ah Jong - The Killer
And a bunch of others that no one has ever heard of, Rocco in Boondock Siants for example.
The one and only "Blaze of Glory" belongs to your hero and mine......
Optiums Prime - Transformers: the Movie
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And a bunch of others that no one has ever heard of, Rocco in Boondock Siants for example.
??? It's rediculously popular. Everyone knows the Boondock Saints.
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Optiums Prime - Transformers: the Movie
how could i forget that !?
another classic - the end of terminator 2, with the thumb *sob*
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to some, Hassan's death in The War Within would be heroic (not me, but it would certainly be considered heroic to him)
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Leon for sure, with Stansfield's "Shit!" making his one of the funniest.
Spartacus, anyone?
Also: Le Samurai- spectacular French filick about a hitman who lives according to the smaurai code. Track it down if you can.
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Donnie Darko didn't have a choice about dying. The tangent universe was going to collapse anyway.
Donnie however did have the choice to save the lives of his girlfriend, mother, and arguably sister.
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As far as I'm concerned, Alien 3 didn't happen. That's just how it is to me. I was kinda pissed at how they killed Newt and Hicks, especially after he had been such a badass in the last film (before the whole acid spray and what have you.)
Hmm... butch cassidy and the sundance kid?
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Donnie Darko didn't have a choice about dying. The tangent universe was going to collapse anyway.
Yeah, but he died after the Tangent Universe collapsed. If Donnie hadn't thought it was all a crazy dream brought on by his meds or the not taking thereof, he could have got out of the room before the engine hit.
(We also know that the Living Receiver doesn't automatically get splattered after their purpose has been served, because for Roberta Sparrow to write her book she must either have been a Living Receiver herself or talked to someone who had been one - my money being on the former.)
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Litersize, now you can pretend Alien 3 DID happen. (http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/film/alien3script.html)
don't have time to read it now ... but can i assume that hicks is suitably awesome in it ?
he really is one of, if not the, best character in the franchise
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Ripley spends her time during the screen play in a coma
Hicks and Bishop become the lead characters.
i'm sold :)
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Litersize, now you can pretend Alien 3 DID happen. (http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/film/alien3script.html)
don't have time to read it now ... but can i assume that hicks is suitably awesome in it ?
No. It's Gibson's legendary script for Alien 3: This Time It's Completely Fucking Abysmal.
Just to give you some idea of how utterly terrible it is: remember when the Queen impales Bishop on her tail then rips him in half? Well, apparently she laid an egg inside him when she did that, and Ripley didn't even notice when she put him in the sleep tube! Man, those eggs that are the size of a human torso are hard to miss, aren't they?
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To be honest, I want to see a heroic character die a rather unheroic death for a change. In the novel I plan to write sometime before I leave this world, one of the characters, and probably the best fighter among them, is hit with an arrow through the neck in a volley of arrows when they storm a castle. I mean, the majority of the fighters that raid somewhere are killed by archers, but heroes, who are always on the front line, never seem to be hit even though they'd probably be the first ones aimed at. It's gonna be very inglorious, and very jarring (although not to anyone that reads this.. of course, you don't know my real name! :O)
But, as for Heroic deaaths:
I second Mr. Orange and Spartacus, and raise you Katsumoto in The Last Samurai, and...
JESUS. In any movie ever made about him.
@ Spinless: Jean Grey isn't dead, foo. It's just alluded that she passed on. She is "reborn" as the Phoenix. Wait for X3.
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Well obviously Jean isn't dead. You see her in the trailers. It would be strange for someone to think that she is alive, but I digress.
I like the idea about the hero dying in the first few minutes of the fight. Sort of like 'The Alamo' when the commander dies early. I generally like when something goes against the grain. It would be very interesting to see this done right. Just remember that when the main bad dude dies, he must go out in a similar manner. Example: beginning of 'Gladiator' when the leader of the Germanic tribe gets killed. I would enjoy it very much.
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To be honest, I want to see a heroic character die a rather unheroic death for a change.
In the Buffy finale, Anya is stabbed in the back during a meaningless skirmish. It's over in just a few seconds - no big thing, no drawn out death scene, and none of the series' main characters even sees her fall.
In the same vein, in Moorcock's Hawkmoon novels Oladahn is simply hacked to death, alone and unseen, and in George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire novels quite a number of characters die undignified deaths - off-camera, sometimes.
Would any of those satisfy you?
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i'd like to see something where some absolute nobody has an utterly immense and heroic death ... unfortunately theres no real way someone could manage it with it being stupid funny and a bit shit
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All this talk of Buffy makes me think of Wash... ;_;
To be fair though, death can be quick, meaningless, sudden and for that I give Joss Whedon props.
A sudden non-heroic dumbass death belongs to Steven Seagal, "Executive Decision"
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Random Buffy deaths? Tara.
Happy happy happy, BOOM HEADSHOT!, unhappy.
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okay, there is only one for this.
13th warrior. Bulvai.
LO THERE DO I SEE MY FATHER AND MY MOTHER
LO THERE DO I SEE MY SISTER AND MY BROTYHER
THEY BID ME TAKE MY PLACE AMONG THEM
IN THE HALLS OF VALHALLA
WHERE THE DEAD SHALL LIVE FOREVER!!!
Face iut, Vikings are cooler than you.
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in George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire novels quite a number of characters die undignified deaths - off-camera, sometimes.
Getting shot with a crossbow bolt in the crotch while you're takin' a shit is one fuckin' undignified way to die, that's for certain.
(although that character wasn't technically a hero in the terms of this thread.)
edit: added the location of the bolt
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Selma - Dancer in the Dark (that might actually be most tragic, rather than heroic).
Agreed on Spike. Other heroic anime deaths WARNING - SEVERE SPOILERS:
The Third Hokage - Naruto
Hoenheim of Light - Fullmetal Alchemist: The Movie
Every member of the Shinsengumi who dies in Peacemaker Kurogane
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Jango Fett pisses me off, because George Lucas screwed with the accepted history, and made it far worse. Boba Fett's backstory had been established by Daniel Keys Moran in the Bounty Hunter Tales, and it was incredibly bad ass. Now he's just some cliched kid who saw his father die? Weak!
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Badass Deaths and Star Wars?
Jabba! Death by Stripper!!!
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If we're taking extended universe as Canon, Boba Fett doesn't die there. He crawls out somehow. Possibly after beating the Sarlaac to death from the inside with his bare fists.
Although I didn't like the rest of the film much (I thought both Matrix Sequels were crap), that one captain in the exoskeleton in either reloaded or revolutions who just dies screaming in defiance and shooting endless screams of bullets into the oncoming hordes, that's pretty cool.
13th warrior still takes the cake though.
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Random Buffy deaths? Tara.
What about ANYA? Bitch gets cut in half and hardly anyone blinks an eye.
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That was revolutions. That was badass.
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Second'd on the sergeant. WHO NEVER FINISHED TRAINING.
Khar: that last prayer was indeed awesome in the 13th warrior, and since Antonio Banderas wasn't the one taking on the Big Bad at the end.
Damn, we mentioned optimus prime, right? IRONHIDE.
Let's expand! Anime is riddled with awesome deaths, the 3rd being yes, one of them.
TV shows: Space Above and Beyond: The asian guy in the crippled ship letting loose a flurry of gunfire as the Chigs close in on him.
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Okay, this isn't heroic at all, but the two most awesome deaths in film existence are, sans doubt:
1: Dr. Strangelove - Riding the bomb
2: Dark Star - Surfing into the atmospjere on a piece of wreckage.
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hmmm.......
Did we mention the Third Hokage from Naruto?
SPOCK! Star Trek is riddled with Heroic Deaths!
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Except for Kirk's son David, who went out like a little bitch.
I wish they would've done more with the "Section 31" concept they began in DS 9.
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It would've been more heroic if he'd died sooner.
I love you.
How can you guys forget The Outsiders with the deaths of Johnny and Dally.
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Most humiliating death: The two bureaucrats in Brazil.
you know what I'm talking about...
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okay, there is only one for this.
13th warrior. Bulvai.
LO THERE DO I SEE MY FATHER AND MY MOTHER
LO THERE DO I SEE MY SISTER AND MY BROTYHER
THEY BID ME TAKE MY PLACE AMONG THEM
IN THE HALLS OF VALHALLA
WHERE THE DEAD SHALL LIVE FOREVER!!!
Face iut, Vikings are cooler than you.
Can we agree on this being the utmost example of Krieg-ness?
Other than that there is every samurai/cowboy killed in Seven Samurai/Magnificent Seven. Especially sword master/knife throwing dude.
Shouild we do a thread on badass deaths?
Edit: HOW THE MOTHErFUCKING HELL DID I FORGET MUFASA???????
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Other than that there is every samurai/cowboy killed in Seven Samurai/Magnificent Seven. Especially sword master/knife throwing dude.
Shouild we do a thread on badass deaths?
heroism is badass. in most of these cases. Kikuchiyo's last charge takes the prize in Seven Samurai
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How can you guys forget The Outsiders with the death of Dally.
you are my kinda lady.
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Sweet, cue makeout scene.
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Now if someone can come up with a scene that involved an awesome/heroic death AND makeouts, they win.
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Easy, Trinity in Matrix 3. Although I'm not sure it's that heroic.
heroism is badass. in most of these cases. Kikuchiyo's last charge takes the prize in Seven Samurai
Yea, but some badass death are not heroic, like Tony Montana's death in Scarface.
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Darth Vader would have been cooler if he'd topped that nancy boy Luke and never repented.
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Ugh. I am so tired of star wars.
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hmmm.......
Did we mention the Third Hokage from Naruto?
Not to mention the Fourth Hokage, though that one does precede the events of the story...
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Darth Vader would have been cooler if he'd topped that nancy boy Luke and never repented.
Correction, it would have been cooler if he'd just offed Mark Hamill. David Prowse would be forever my hero had he done that.
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Love him or hate him, Mark Hamill = Best Joker ever.
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Mark Hamill = Wing Commander, anyone?
oh shit, wrong thread!
Wait a minute, did someone say Star Wars? Arvel Krynyd, the guy who crashed through the bridge of the Executor! Seriously!
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Yeah, but they may have gotten someone, you know, good for Wing Commander. Though, Ginger Lynn Allen in there was pretty hilarious, and I'm totally in love with the woman who played Panther in IV.
Also, I don't think he really intended to die. Let's also not forget Biggs Darklighter.
Mark Hamill has done a ton of really great voice acting, it's where he belongs. His overacting in cartoons is actually a good thing. His voice acting redeems anything else he may have done.
I did think about his voice acting shortly after I posted, which I do agree has been excellent.
Also, I'd have to say Band of Brothers has some damned heroic deaths.
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Mark Hamill has done a ton of really great voice acting, it's where he belongs. His overacting in cartoons is actually a good thing. His voice acting redeems anything else he may have done.
Hamill-bashing is really starting to piss me off now. Here's a few cluebats round the head:
1) Hamill is generally considered to have been excellent in The Big Red One, and of course he has a very good reputation for his extensive voice work.
2) George Lucas is known far and wide as a poor director of actors.
Why, then, is Hamill the only person who ever takes the blame for weaknesses in his performance? Even Carrie Fisher doesn't, and everyone knows she was coked to the eyeballs for the whole Star Wars shoot.
OK, so he's not Olivier. But he's a decent actor who makes a good living in the toughest, most fickle trade on earth, so lay the fuck off him, already.
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I wasn't bashing Hamil.
Just Luke.
Fisher gives her best coked up performance in The Blues Brothers, where it gives her a touch of extra psychotic mystery. She cleaned up after nearly getting fired from that one, I believe.
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Ash from the Pokemon movie!!!!
HE DIES?!
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But is revived shortly after.
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I wasn't bashing Hamil.
Just Luke.
Fisher gives her best coked up performance in The Blues Brothers, where it gives her a touch of extra psychotic mystery. She cleaned up after nearly getting fired from that one, I believe.
Temporarily. She went into rehab for addiction to prescription drugs in 1998; she's been clean since then.
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Yeah, I like Hamil, he has done the best Joker voice for the Batman cartoon I've ever heard. He just fits it perfectly.
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1) Hamill is generally considered to have been excellent in The Big Red One, and of course he has a very good reputation for his extensive voice work.
Haven't seen that, but I also haven't seen him in anything where he has been good (note the use of the word "seen").
2) George Lucas is known far and wide as a poor director of actors.
George Lucas didn't direct any but the first Star Wars, and the worst performances were in the second two.
Also, I readily admit that his voice acting is damned good.
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EDIT: Liter needs to learn how to read.
Corvette Summer, anyone?
... Anyone? *Crickets*
Dammit.
Anyway, well shit. Buffy. Buffy the Vampire Slayer, what did she do? JUMPED INTO A GIGANTIC ELECTRICAL GATE THAT SHOCKED HER TO DEATH. That was pretty cool. Dammit, I know kung-fu films have tons but I can't recall any right now. Little help, anyone?
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Also, I don't think he really intended to die. Let's also not forget Biggs Darklighter.
It's a pity no one really remembers the valor, heroism, and sacrifice of Porkins.
Dunno if it's heroic, but Roy Batty had the finest death in cinematic history.
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I thought about Porkins, but he could have just ejected like Biggs told him to.
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If we're taking extended universe as Canon, Boba Fett doesn't die there. He crawls out somehow. Possibly after beating the Sarlaac to death from the inside with his bare fists.
He's rescued by one of the other bounty hunters that was sent to kill/capture Hans Solo, a dude named Dengar. It's in a book that has all the tales of the Bounty Hunters (and I should mention that they are all killed/captured themselves except for Boba Fett and Dengar.)
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Wait, I don't rememer Zuckuss getting captured or killed (same with his partner, 4-LOM). IG-88, though he died, is still the most badass. Maybe I should read that book again.
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Anyway, well shit. Buffy. Buffy the Vampire Slayer, what did she do? JUMPED INTO A GIGANTIC ELECTRICAL GATE THAT SHOCKED HER TO DEATH. That was pretty cool.
I don't know about "most heroic" or "most badass", but clearly the hands-down greatest movie death-scene ever is Paul Reubens (a.k.a. Pee-Wee Herman) in the original Buffy the Vampire Slayer movie. "Ooh! Aah! Ooh! Aah!" (kick kick kick)
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hahahahahahahahah
Even AFTER the credits were done! Oh man, priceless.
Hmmm...... king Kong anyone in the realm of futility?
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I don't know about "most heroic" or "most badass", but clearly the hands-down greatest movie death-scene ever is Paul Reubens (a.k.a. Pee-Wee Herman) in the original Buffy the Vampire Slayer movie. "Ooh! Aah! Ooh! Aah!" (kick kick kick)
That wasn't in the movie, that was when he was in the cinema later.
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Wait, I don't rememer Zuckuss getting captured or killed (same with his partner, 4-LOM). IG-88, though he died, is still the most badass. Maybe I should read that book again.
*thinks* I don't even remember who Zuckuss was, although I think I know who 4-LOM was because I might have had a toy... anyway.
I remember that the reptile dude (totally forgot his name) was captured by some other bounty hunter that was after reptilian species for some reason. IG-88 was killed, all of 6 times, and was possibly the most memorable boss fight in Shadows of the Empire (one of the best Star Wars of games of all time). Dengar found some empathic type of blue creature that was able to give him a semblance of what it was like to feel emotion again, and rescued Boba Fett fromt he Sarlaac. Then the story about Fett himself was based way in the future where he and Hans were old fogeys.
I think I'm missing like 2 bounty hunters... Maybe I should read the book again myself, haha.
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Zuckuss was the gand (the guy who had to breathe methane) and his partner was 4-LOM. They boarded a transport that was escaping Hoth looking for bounties, but ended up helping the rebels escape (Toryn Farr was among those on the transport).
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And the reptile dude was Bossk, I believe.
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Nah, you've accounted for all of them, I believe.
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I'm really disappointed in all of you and myself for knowing all the names of those bounty hunters.
most of all in me, because I've never read any of that awful fanfics made official.
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The best heroic death movie is Sam Peckinpah's "The Wild Bunch."
I'm serious.
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Which, the four dudes or the seven hundred Mexicans?
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Since the original topic was cool movie deaths, and not necessarily heroic deaths, I'm going to throw out a few oddball choices.
Toshiro Mifune in Throne of Blood. If you've seen it (Kurosawa doing Shakespeare's Macbeth), you'd know exactly what I'm talking about. It takes 15 minutes for him to die!
Tira (is that her name? I forget) in the anime version of Metropolis.
And the most obscure of all: Turtles Can Fly. This film was made in Iraq after Saddam Hussein fell. It takes place in a Kurdish village, and all the Kurds in the movie hate Saddam and eagerly await the arrival of the U.S. forces. But that isn't to say the Americans are shown as heroes, either. You'll have to see for yourself.
If you ever get a chance to see it, you'll understand why I feel so strongly about this film. It shows what war does to children, and the characters really stick with you. Especially the ones that don't make it.
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It wasn't heroic but by far the most awesome death was that of R.P.Mcmurphy in One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest. Also Andy Kaufman in Man On The Moon.
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Tom Hanks' character in "Saving Private Ryan"
Asuka, End of Evangelion (although I'm a little confused about that one. Did she actually die or not?)
Ken Watanabe in "the Last Samurai"
Boromir
Knockout Ned (City of God)
Anonymous Rebel Pilot #16 (Kamikaze'd his fighter into the Super star destroyer in return of the jedi)
Anonymous Jedi Kid #1 (Episode 3, goes down fighting)
Qui-Gonn Jin.
This one's not from a movie, but a book: Kage (Last Chancers novels, "Annihilation Squad")
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Asuka, End of Evangelion (although I'm a little confused about that one. Did she actually die or not?)
You have every right to be confused; Evangelion is not meant to be understood by normal human beings. She was inside her Eva robot when the other robots began to devour it. But she does show up at the very end, after the world is destroyed. Shinji, as the last man alive, apparently re-creates the world through the sheer force of his will, but what he comes up with is chaos and the two of them lying on the shore. He starts to strangle her, rather than allowing humanity to continue, and she doesn't even fight back. But he can't go through with it, leaving her to utter the Japanese equivalent of "Geez, you're a wimp."
Fade to black, roll credits, and watch Gainax rake in the dough 10 years later.
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Daniel Day-Lewis as Bill the Butcher in Gangs of New York,and also as John Proctor in The Crucible.
Mickey Rourke as Marv,Sin City.
Bruce Willis as Brannigan,Sin City.
Wilson Jermaine Heredia as Angel Dummont Schunard,Rent.
Jude Law as Inman,Cold Mountain.
The Devil's Rejects,The Devil's Rejects.
Tyler Durden,Fight Club.
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You guys say Boromir was a heroic death, but nobody's mentioned Gandalf? He got the others to run and faced down a Balrog on his own! How is that not heroic?
And before anyone even says it, he DID die. Then he came back in his second and more powerful Boss Form - Gandalf the White. If he'd died again he woulda come back as Uber MechaGandalf.
Um... who else?
Jason Todd (Robin II) died heroically. It was hella nasty, but heroic.
Zach from Dark Angel shot himself to save Max.
Doc Ock from Spider-Man 2. He repented and *then* died heroically.
Harry Stamper (Willis) from Armegeddon killed himself with a freaking nuke to save the world. BADASS TO THE POWER OF INFINITY.
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agree with pretty much everything so far, but will throw in
Miles Dyson, in Terminator 2, blowing up himself along with the lab
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Tyler Durden,Fight Club.
I have to ask about this one. Tyler dying a hero?
Insofar as Fight Club had a villain, it was Tyler. He started a terrorist organisation, blew up the narrator's apartment and tried to take over his life, and was probably directly or indirectly responsible for a lot of deaths.
In the end, the narrator killed Tyler to regain control over his own life, and then consciously took over Tyler's role as leader of Project Mayhem.
Heroic?
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In the end, the narrator killed Tyler to regain control over his own life, and then consciously took over Tyler's role as leader of Project Mayhem.
Heroic?
You're forgetting that the narrator was Tyler Durden. People keep telling me that at the end of the movie he's killed when the building he was in explodes - thus the crumble-cut at the end - but I don't recall the bomb ever being reconnected.
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The Brave Little Toaster when he jumped into the gears to save his master.
Querky I know, but still.
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You're forgetting that the narrator was Tyler Durden. People keep telling me that at the end of the movie he's killed when the building he was in explodes - thus the crumble-cut at the end - but I don't recall the bomb ever being reconnected.
No, they weren't really the same person. They shared a body, but they had distinct seperate identities, which was what caused all the trouble. Being the dominant personality, Tyler was able to take control when he wanted to, but he and the narrator had different minds and personalities within the same brain.
Tyler's "death" was more of a symbolic death when the narrator destroyed the Tyler's persona. But for all intents and purposes, the narrator-personality killed the Tyler-personality.
Anyway, that's beside the point. As far as a heroic death goes, Tyler still fails. Either you're right and Tyler never died, or I'm right and he didn't die heroically. The result's the same, so far as this thread's concerned.
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Being the dominant personality, Tyler was able to take control when he wanted to,
Pitt-Tyler wasn't the dominant personality, or even a second personality at all. He was a dissociative hallucination.
Remember when Bob tells Norton-Tyler that people say Tyler Durden only sleeps one hour a night? It's absolutely true - because Tyler never stopped being an insomniac. What happened was that Tyler's stress-related insomnia drove him nuts and he became violent (if you think this sounds stupid, think again; I've been there myself). He then created an imaginary friend - Pitt-Tyler - to disassociate himself from the violent acts, and false memories of himself sleeping or observing Pitt-Tyler to explain to himself what he was doing at those times.
However, the conflict between what he was doing and his social programming only served to increase his stress and feed his insomnia. It became an endless and escalating cycle: he'd try expiating his stress through violence, become more stressed because of the consequences of the violence, and have to do something more extreme to try and get rid of the increased stress level. Eventually he reached the point of planning to blow up the buildings, and went into complete denial. That's when Pitt-Tyler disappeared.
This is all a lot more clear in the movie than it is in the book. In the book, "Pitt-Tyler" says they're not two separate men but also treats "Norton-Tyler" as a separate individual. In the movie he spells it out on two occasions:
"People do it everyday, they talk to themselves... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."
"All the ways you wish you could be, that's me. I look like you wanna look; I fuck like you wanna fuck. I am smart, capable, and most importantly, I am free in all the ways that you are not."
Emphasis mine on that second quote. In other words, Pitt-Tyler not only looks like Norton-Tyler wants to look and fucks like he wants to fuck - he says what Tyler wants to say and does what Tyler wants to do. Ultimately, though, they are one person and Tyler is only battling against the demons of his own worse nature.
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That's a good argument, but there's one important flaw in it.
Norton-Tyler saw himself as a seperate entity from Pitt-Tyler.
Norton-Tyler did create Pitt-Tyler as a defense mechanism, it's true. The existence of Pitt-Tyler was solely to justify Norton-Tyler's breakdown by "making it someone else's fault," as it were.
However, Norton-Tyler didn't consciously create Pitt-Tyler with that intention. So far as his conscious mind went, this was all new and confusing stuff. Furthermore, when called by the name "Tyler Durten" he became massively confused - suggesting that this was not, in fact, Norton-Tyler's real name.
What this gets into is the real nitty-gritty of existential crisis: "If I don't think I exist, do I really exist?" Norton-Tyler believes that he exists as a seperate entity to Pitt-Tyler. Furthermore, he was the original persona - Pitt-Tyler didn't create *him*. So, since he's the original and he believes that he is a seperate entity... well, for all intents and purposes within their shared head, he IS a seperate entity. That's the very basis of Multiple Personality Disorder - two or more completely seperate consciousnesses co-existing within the one mind.
Leading up to Project Mayhem's great plot, Norton-Tyler began to realise the truth about his relationship with Pitt-Tyler, and react to it. It quickly became obvious that he couldn't simply reject Pitt-Tyler any more; that persona had become far too powerful to be killed.
This is what I meant by Pitt-Tyler being the dominant persona. He was aware of their split-personality nature, and being aware of it allowed him to access Norton-Tyler's mind and forcibly take control of their body.
However, Norton-Tyler began to figure out how to do that for himself, as shown when he deactivated the bomb in the back of the van. By the time of the climax, Norton-Tyler accepted what had happened in his life and began to regain his role as the dominant persona. At this instant, he accepted who he was - and consquently, Pitt-Tyler was no longer needed. The defence mechanism wasn't necessary any more, which was what allowed Norton-Tyler to "kill" Pitt-Tyler and re-merge their minds.
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That's a good argument, but there's one important flaw in it.
Norton-Tyler saw himself as a seperate entity from Pitt-Tyler.
I need to ask at this point if you are or have been an Honours candidate in Psychology. That you think of Norton-Tyler not believing his imaginary friend to be himself as a flaw in my argument suggests to me that you are/have not - in which case, please accept that I know more about this than you do. (If you are an Honours candidate then you're simply mistaken, but there's nothing wrong with that, I'm sure. :))
I do agree with you that "Norton-Tyler" probably isn't called Tyler Durden, though. I used it only as a convenient label to identify that they are the same person, but in different aspects.
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I need to ask at this point if you are or have been an Honours candidate in Psychology. That you think of Norton-Tyler not believing his imaginary friend to be himself as a flaw in my argument suggests to me that you are/have not - in which case, please accept that I know more about this than you do. (If you are an Honours candidate then you're simply mistaken, but there's nothing wrong with that, I'm sure. :))
I do agree with you that "Norton-Tyler" probably isn't called Tyler Durden, though. I used it only as a convenient label to identify that they are the same person, but in different aspects.
No, no, you're quite right. I was putting forth the situation as I saw it, but I have no professional knowledge of multiple personality disorder. I've studied a thing or two about it, but not in detail and only enough to use as a plot device in works of fiction. If you know what you're talking about then I bow to your superior knowledge.
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No, no, you're quite right. I was putting forth the situation as I saw it, but I have no professional knowledge of multiple personality disorder. I've studied a thing or two about it, but not in detail and only enough to use as a plot device in works of fiction. If you know what you're talking about then I bow to your superior knowledge.
My knowledge probably isn't that superior, but it does range wider. I have more choices available for best fit. Anyway, I think we were mainly arguing over the colour of the elephant's shirt. Let the thread get back on topic.