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Fun Stuff => BAND => Topic started by: Will on 26 Dec 2006, 07:12
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I was driving home tonight, and I had one of those out-of-nowhere thoughts that I have sometimes, so I figured I'd post it here and see what comes of it:
There are a lot of people - especially on this forum - who pride themselves in having a very broad musical palate. I consider myself one of them; I'll go from listening to Converge one day to Miles Davis the next and not think anything unusual about that. I know that I didn't always have this approach - for a lot of my early high school years I wouldn't listen to anything but hardcore and metal, and I missed out on a lot of great music by being that close-minded, but I always would explain that away by saying 'oh, I just don't like that.' Since then, my tastes have broadened, and I no longer refuse to listen to something just because it isn't 'heavy,' but it leaves me with this question:
Because at that point in my life I wouldn't have listened to, say, Godspeed, or Mogwai, or even Fugazi (not to mention a lot of the even quieter music I am now fond of ), I would have been called close-minded and not open to other styles of music, and it would have been said as a negative trait. But if I only listened to something like indie rock, or singer/songwriter stuff, just to name a couple examples, and refused to listen to anything heavy, no one would consider that a bad thing. So what is it about metal/hardcore/punk that makes it so acceptable in most people's eyes to ignore? If you're a metalhead who refuses to listen to jazz because you just don't care for it, people call you out on that as though it's a character flaw, but if you listen to jazz and ignore all metal for the same reason, you're somehow cultured and have "sophisticated taste?" I kind of don't get it?
Please note that I'm not meaning to accuse ANYONE of this - this forum is one of the coolest places I know of to talk music with internet strangers - I just see this as kind of a societal norm, and it makes me curious what some of you think...sorry in advance if this turns into another stupid post, I'm really just genuinely curious...
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It's all about your understanding of music. Aging and maturity should, in the discerning music listener, cultivate a genuine appreciation - at least an appreciation - for varied and diverse genres. This does not necessarily mean that the listener will like everything that comes to his or her ears, but it does mean that the music will be listened to and evaluated fairly regardless of its genre. At the same time, the older you get, the more forgiving you should be of others' tastes. One of the huge steps that people need to take when music is a significant part of their life is to acknowledge that other people may not necessarily like what you like, share your passions or even have the level of tact that you do regarding subjectivity.
However this shouldn't apply exclusively to people who like primarily rock or primarily metal or primarily techno or primarily jazz. If you take music seriously then it should - it must - apply to you. Otherwise you're going to be stuck in some form or another of a perpetual adolescence as far as your tastes are concerned. In the months since I turned 18 I have been increasingly tilting towards this perspective and it definitely helps in situations where people ask you to listen to something. It helps in conversations about movies, books, music, art, everything. It's also made me feel a lot more confident regarding my ability to evaluate music and about the way I treat other people. I don't have fantastic tact but it's improving, with a small part of that being thanks to my attitudes about tastes.
There's a difference between being cultured and being an elitist, and a significant part of that is maturity.
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Basically, read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. You'll only have to go through the first ten chapters to probably get an idea of why I suggested that. To elucidate for people who don't get it, and who haven't read it, One of the many ideas put forward in Zen... is that people can appear to be superficially similiar in their tastes or outlooks and yet have deep differences of outlook so absolutely fundamental that you may not even notice them. Its a matter of aesthetic worldviews. The dominant worldview at its most basic favours art which comments directly and unequivocally upon real life: at the end of the day, there's not such a huge aesthetic gap between, say, Big Brother and Broken Social Scene. This worldview values the subtlety of every day emotions and feelings, realistic stories and vignettes, internal references to a shared popular culture, and so on and so forth. This, at the end of the day, is in my opinion, a lot more important in peoples musical tastes than audial style. Audially, there isn't a million miles between Nick Cave and Current 93. Hell, they've made albums together. But, people have much more liking for Nick Cave because his songs, his most popular ones especially, tend to embody more realistic or recognisable stories, whilst Dave Tibet, whilst he does tell very personal stories, likes to the tell them in a manner that makes detailed references to the works of Aleister Crowley and the fates of his pet cats. This might be a bad example, but hey. Metal, of course, does not really embody this aesthetic. In fact, it embodies a completely opposite aesthetic. Metal is fantastic. Literally. It is about larger than life characters in unreal situations, dressed like Satans take on the village people. When metal comments on the world, it comments on issues outside most peoples experience, mostly historical and military. It is exaggerated, stark, brash, and comes off to supporters of the first aesthetic as adolescent and crude, whilst to its fans it can offer literally transcendent emotion. You will also find goth rock, industrial/post-industrial, fantasy music etc. in this aesthetic camp. If you look at what artists and songs in the metal genre are liked by indie fans, you can see how this comes off: a lot of people who are generally indie fans like metal ironically, ie, they view the whole thing as, basically, a post-modernist reference to itself. That's why when more hipster type people start a metal band it will do well in the indie community but completely tank in the metalhead arena: very few metalheads listen to Goblin Cock. They can smell the insincerity a mile off. Jazz, generally, belongs to the first aesthetic category, as do a lot of the people on these forums and indeed a general majority of the populace. To put it shortly: metal isn't cool.
Also, in considering the issue of jazz vs metal, it might be worth noting that, in America in particular, some elements have trickled down to the modern indie milieu of the rampant anti-racist sentiments of the cooler sections of the 60's counterculture. That is, there is an unconscious racial judgement made that sees metal as something inherently white, and thus crass, and jazz as something inherently black, and thus cool. Although, I say that its unconscious, but if hipsters want to mock metal, then the phrases 'white trash' and 'white supremacy', even if used purely as a joke, are not far behind. It is often subconsciously, or consciously, assumed that every metalhead who hates rap is probably just a little bit racist. Actually, due to his aesthetic worldview, most rap is pretty much the diametric opposite of what it is he wants to hear. He can't understand it on the most basic level. A lot of metalheads do probably have some subconscious racism, because a lot of them are white and middle class, but, in general, I don't think race really has anything to do with a bands musical output whatsoever, and, in some way, a lot of people do. I don't understand the hip-hop cultures seeming monomaniac obsession with race any more than I understand heterosexual men not wanting it up the poopchute. I mean, to illustrate an example: outside the NSBM and NSBM friendly twats, I don't think any metalhead would actually judge a band on, whether they were, say, black (like most of the admittedly ironically named Znowhite) or asian (countless amazing Japanese and other bands), they would judge them on the music, whilst, seemingly, a white rapper already has quite a hurdle to overcome anyway, and basically has to key in to black culture to have any success (whilst, a band, like, say, Sigh, might be entirely rooted in Japanese culture). I'm rambling off on this without being PC, by the way, so no offence to anyone. It's just, like I say, I don't ever actually consider race as an issue in music (or any walk of life, really), so I don't talk or think about this sort of thing much.
That's what I think anyway. I have sort of been considering writing an article on my blog on this sparked off by going off and browsing that Electrical Audio forum and basically not being able to comprehend the value judgements of pretty much everyone there.
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I haven't read that entire thing (will get to it in a minute) but Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Repair is a great book.
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@Kharbevnor- Yeah, basically.
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I might have to go to the bookstore tomorrow and see if they have that, Khar, thanks...
I'm of the camp that all forms of music have some worth if you dig deep enough; hell, even rap and country, the two genres almost universally dismissed as worthless by hipsters and their ilk, have some songs and even some artists that I find worth paying attention to. I just find it incredibly frustrating to constantly run into the mindset that metal (i'll use that to describe all kinds of heavy music, just for the sake of clarity) is for neanderthals and anyone with a "sophisticated" music taste will ignore it, while anyone who ignores the "classics" is *obviously* a mindless cretin.
I had a friend who was taking string classes last year, who's teacher informed him that A Silver Mt. Zion was not 'real' music, and that he would do well to not waste his time by listening to it. I can understand not liking them - your taste in music is your own, and you shouldn't have to answer to anyone but yourself for it - but it offends me that someone would make a comment like that. By what authority does a person dictate to others what is and is not considered music, or even art?
As it happens, posting this has sort of forced me to reconcile the above opinions with my own tendency to be a bit of a prick when it comes to music...so as to avoid being a hypocrite, I think it might be time for me to become less of an arse with my friends who really like what I think is utter shit...
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The problem your friend ran into seems to be a fairly common academic standpoint, which emphasizes this ivory-tower examination of music. In a four-hundred-page music textbook titled Music: An Appreciation, rock music gets six pages, with a paragraph dedicated to rap and a couple sentences dedicated to heavy metal. At one point it discusses how Ice T's Bodycount "combined speed metal guitar riffs with rapped lyrics" and proceeds to draw lines between that band and Limp Bizkit, which apparently "showed that rap was no longer solely a field for African American artists." Hector Berlioz, meanwhile, has six pages dedicated exclusively to himself and his music.
And there really shouldn't be any "jazz vs. metal" argument. There's no versus there. Each is a valid genre with its highs and its lows.
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Khar's point is exactly what I've been trying to say, more or less. I listen to a fairly large amount of metal, and pretty much no rap music, but it's not like I'm some closet racist; I just like music that's focused around instrumentation.
And as somebody who likes jazz and metal I think this argument is pretty dumb. In fact, there are plenty of metal bands who use jazz structure and style all the time. Atheist is pretty much just jazz with most of the usual instrumentation being replaced by shitloads of guitar tracks.
I will admit pretty easily that I have a relatively narrow musical taste. I listen to a fairly specific section of the metal subgenre, 60s and 70s style rock, prog rock, some avant-garde, jazz, and blues, and that's pretty much it. I would hope that doesn't reflect badly upon myself as a person, but the fact is that I naturally gravitate towards music that I haven't heard within the styles that I like rather than entire new genres of music.
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To comment on the 'metalheads as neanderthals' thing, this comes pretty much from a vastly innacurate picture of metalheads. We're going to consider a stock character: hipster in the street. The vast majority of his cultural information on heavy metal concerns a certain type of American metal fan of the eighties: Heavy Metal Parking Lot, Beavis and Butthead, Otto from the Simpsons, whatever. His day to day experience of metalheads is mini-moshers at the local mall. He spices this up with Ruthless Reviews top 10 worst black metal pics and a few articles from Vice Magazine and he has developed an opinion of metal vastly different from the facts: for a start, he thinks of metal as having a much narrower demographic appeal than it actually has, and of being much less intelligent than it is. Furthermore, he doesn't actually understand it. He rarely if ever meets a real metalhead over the age of 18. He never really bothers to try and understand what metalheads think, or why they like the things they do. Remember, the hipster in the street ascribes to that first, 'reality-centric' aesthetic. He thrives on post-modernism, and popular culture, and thus the representations he sees of metalheads to him embody metalheads. Any metalheads he may meet who differ from his ideas are exceptions to the rule.
In fact, metal has changed a lot in those past 16 years, and European metal, which now has far more dominance, both in terms of its bands' fanbases and its general musical influence, has always been a different kettle of fish from what was going on in America anyway. I've encountered some hipsters who actually think they have the jump on 'real' metalheads because they're listening to things like Opeth and Agalloch, which have both been going for ten years or so now. Peoples expectations are, simply, wrong. I'm not sure they've ever been right, except for at a certain place (America) at a certain time. Metal was invented as much by fantasy geeks with degrees as by blue collar stoners like Black Sabbath, and even then you have to remember that Black Sabbath were the blue collar stoners hooked on occult literature and the music of Django Reinhardt.
EDIT: An example. A friend of mine at school once commented that he thought it very strange that the top three scoring history students doing A-Levels at my school (one of whom, I will modestly state was me) were all huge metalheads. Comments were also passed about why such a huge number of the people doing A-Level art at my school were into metal (whereas all the textile students were a bit chavvy. As we shared a studio it led to some amusing visual contrast and lots of fights over the stereo). I went to a relatively small private school, so you can't really pull out any social judgements, but I'm just commenting on the perception of how my friend clearly viewed at as something of an aberration that a high percentage of the schools metalhead population were high-achieving (in the context of the school, though I have to say I met some of the stupidest people I've ever known at that place) humanities students.
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I don't really know why I like jazz and not metal. I just do?? I could give reasons but ultimately it would lead to arguments, increasingly petty, that go nowhere. Short of somehow getting amnesia and being reprogrammed by a group of metalheads, jazz will always be better than metal because I like it much more. I do think there may be something to the reverse racism argument, but since the majority of modern jazz fans are white.....well, I don't know where I'm going with this.
Basically, there's no accounting for taste, yadda yadda.
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but since the majority of modern jazz fans are white.....
...the reverse racism argument makes perfect sense.
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pardon
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KharBevNor...
Thanks, man. That's all I really feel inclined to say regarding your statements here. I was getting all excited and ready to type most of that out when I realized that you already said it.
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I could give reasons
Do then. I didn't type all that shit out not to discuss it or build on it.
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Yeah, I gotta give it to Khar, fantastic post. There's this poster on the gamespot forums, LSJ(bunch of numbers) who's a huge Cure fan. There was some thread someone started about Death Metal (on the GS forums, however, people think this means Children of Bodom and other gothenburg/gothenburg-influenced stuff), and some people came and attacked it, LSJ being one of them. He wasn't being particularly harsh, he generally stayed on the reasonable doubt side of an argument. They were all arguing over the wrong things, and then LSJ up and says "oh, you'll grow out of it eventually. you'll realize how cheesy metal is and start listening to real music." And I was floored by the overt pompousness. He was one of the most mature posters over there (that's not really saying a whole lot, mind you), and I thought the whole thread, but especially that post, was extremely prickish. It brought to my attention how narrow-minded people as a whole really are.
Edit: Your post brought it to the front of my brain (or wherever your thinking is done), and it makes me feel that I'm a better person for being honestly open-minded and not for the sake of being a hipster. That being said, I think I ought to go read that book.
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Yeah, there have been a lot of people who I've otherwise regarded as highly intelligent and of a respectable intelligence quotient that have said similar things to me. "There is life after metal, dude." That one stuck in my head. Why after metal? Maybe seperate from, or parallel with, I could see.
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This could even bridge over into the other thread about Grand Theft Auto games being considered a form of art. As new forms of media gain recognition and prestige, the argument comes up whether they can get that coveted seal of approval as an art form. Before Beethoven, it was unthinkable to change the number of movements in a concerto or symphony or use a scherzo as the third movement... before Debussy, it was unthinkable to have music without exposition or a discernable tempo. Before jazz in the '20s, a LOT of things were unthinkable. Before rock n' roll, it was unthinkable to have raucous youth sporting long and unkempt hair styles, or shaking their hips in a lascivious manner. Before metal, it was unthinkable to drench your audiences in strange fluids a la Gwar or to consider blood-curdling screams as a form of valid musical expression.
Yet now, all of these things are commonplace and many are (arguably to some) considered art -- although it was with struggle for many, if not all, of them. Every form of musical expression which is now a mainstay was once most likely considered "just noise" or something, but after it's around for enough time, the next thing comes along and shakes things up. Then people who hold the previous form of expression near and dear just decry the new form. Anyone who is a "jazz snob" just needs to be reminded how it was once considered "slave music" or some other load of crap, and that many people just looked down their nose at it like people look down their noses at metal (or its bizarro-world cousin, hip-hop) now. And as far as jazz being race-exclusive, I'm just not sure. Unless we're talking about Kenny G. jazz or something, I think jazz is one of the few musical forms that takes all kinds.
To paraphrase what others have said here, just because something isn't your cup o' tea doesn't mean it isn't valid artistic and emotional expression.
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"oh, you'll grow out of it eventually. you'll realize how cheesy metal is and start listening to real music."
Wait wait. This guy is a huge fan of the Cure? I like that band, but anybody with enough brains to examine Robert Smith's lyrics would think twice before calling metal cheesy and melodramatic.
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Some like ultra spicy food, others think it's too hot and ruins the flavor. What can you say?
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Whether someone likes or doesn't like a certain song or group or even type of music makes no nevermind to me. It's their opinion plain and simple and everyone's entitled to that. What does bother me however, is when people discount an entire genre of music, be it metal, rap, jazz, or what have you without ever hearing it, or based on one or two songs. I am personally of the opinion that every genre has good and bad aspects to it and is worth listening to. And as to people gaining a greater appreciation for a wider variety of types of music as they get older, I don't know that I'd say that's true. Most of the older people I know, such as my parents, grandparents, etc, are very close minded about the music they listen to. "Was it made after 1970? Why then it's clearly not even worth hearing" That's the type of attitude I simply cannot stand. And personally, while I know it is more socially expected to discount certain genres based on cultural biases...rap, country, and metal specifically....I think that there is never a reason to discount an entire genre of music, whatever it is, since within each genre there's such a wide variation.
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And you're absolutely right.
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I really dont get why most metalheads dont like Jazz. I mean, listen to John Zorn's "Spy Vs. Spy - The Music of Ornette Coleman". I think Brutal Truth can learn a few things from that album.
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Metal was the sort of music I liked when I was younger because it was loud, fast, heavy, intense, etc. It was music I used to make myself feel stronger and more confident than I actually was. People didn't exactly fear me because I liked metal, but during one of my Freshmen year computer classes that some Seniors were in, they stopped giving me shit when I lied and told them I had gone to a Korn concert.
I suppose it's true that I don't like metal anymore because I don't bother trying to get beyond the obvious big names of metal, but I guess it's moreso that I just don't care for metal in any of its forms anymore in the same way that other people don't like rap or techno. Khar, you could probably personally come to my house and force me to listen to a bunch of metal albums that you feel would change my mind. I would sit there, nod, listen, and think they were good, but I wouldn't ever buy them or listen to them on my own. I'm sure there is a fuckton of great metal IF you like metal.
Basically, we're coming from two different perspectives here. I can't ever see myself liking metal again. It's not a matter of growing up or growing out of a phase so much as it is my tastes and perspectives have changed. Right now I'm listening to a Deerhoof cover of a My Bloody Valentine song and it's fucking magnificent. You would hate it. Different folks, different strokes.
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During one of my Freshmen year computer classes that some Seniors were in, they stopped giving me shit when I lied and told them I had gone to a Korn concert.
I find this insanely funny.
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This is a really good thread. Give me a bit of time to contribute.
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I really dont get why most metalheads dont like Jazz. I mean, listen to John Zorn's "Spy Vs. Spy - The Music of Ornette Coleman". I think Brutal Truth can learn a few things from that album.
I listen to a decent amount of coltrane, but I prefer faster-paced jazz as a whole over the slower stuff.. A lot of slow music bores me, but then again, I still like Sunn O)))). And like the one guy up there said, many metal bands take hints from jazz....I don't get it either.
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I don't dislike Jazz. That Coltrane track someone posted was alright, I like some Miles Davis, and I listen to even more jazz-influenced things. Thing is, a lot of Jazz just doesn't do it for me. I'm pretty sure it's something to do with the drumming, the rhythm. I can't stand any shit like Dillinger Escape Plan or whatnot because of that stuff. I just can't get in to it. It's that I can't do unstructured music per se, it's just that there's a certain form of lack of structure. I don't know, it's here that my system breaks down, though I'd also suggest that there's a large amount of aesthetic judgement in it. I like Diamanda Galas, who (I think) does quite a few Jazz songs, and things like Sol Invictus' December Song. I love Ephel Duath, even enough to brave DEP to go and see them. I like Naked City. It's nothing to do with Jazz's musical qualities, it's the feeling, the aesthetic.
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During one of my Freshmen year computer classes that some Seniors were in, they stopped giving me shit when I lied and told them I had gone to a Korn concert.
I too, find this insanely funny.
Also, to build on what Alarra was saying in regards to people judging entire genres on one or two songs, the songs that people usually hear are the worst example for the genre anyway, whether that genre is metal, jazz, rap, whatever. Judging a genre based on the examples that you'd hear on the radio is possibly the worst way of going about learning about a genre ever. Should we be judging rap based on Lil Jon and Akon and other commercial "hip-hop" that's commonly played? Should we judge jazz by soft radio jazz? Should we judge metal by Black Album era Metallica, Nu-Metal and 80's Pop Metal?
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With the Korn thing, you have to understand that this was at a time when nu metal wasn't a joke yet and people who didn't like Korn and bands like them were sort of 'scared' of it.
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'Cuz it was all kinds of twisted and scary?
Things with teeth that don't bite never work out well.
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Ok, this thread is about to get a little less magnanimous but hopefully no less respectful and intelligent.
Khar, I love the first part of your first post. I wish you had left it there :wink:
If you look at what artists and songs in the metal genre are liked by indie fans, you can see how this comes off: a lot of people who are generally indie fans like metal ironically, ie, they view the whole thing as, basically, a post-modernist reference to itself. That's why when more hipster type people start a metal band it will do well in the indie community but completely tank in the metalhead arena: very few metalheads listen to Goblin Cock. They can smell the insincerity a mile off.
This probably requires a whole other thread but I think this whole idea of "liking something ironically" is a really weird claim. Maybe you could articulate better what exactly you mean by this. If I like something ironically does that mean I don't REALLY like it? Do I not enjoy listening to it? Is it part of some kind of social posturing? I know a lot of fans of indie music myself included (I don't know if you'd include me in your "hipster" catagory) who sincerely like some hip hop which is saturated by self-reference. How does a post-modern self-reference differs from a regular self reference.
Also, in considering the issue of jazz vs metal, it might be worth noting that, in America in particular, some elements have trickled down to the modern indie milieu of the rampant anti-racist sentiments of the cooler sections of the 60's counterculture. That is, there is an unconscious racial judgement made that sees metal as something inherently white, and thus crass, and jazz as something inherently black, and thus cool. Although, I say that its unconscious, but if hipsters want to mock metal, then the phrases 'white trash' and 'white supremacy', even if used purely as a joke, are not far behind. It is often subconsciously, or consciously, assumed that every metalhead who hates rap is probably just a little bit racist.
This is sort of curious. First, doesn't the "The Hipster" also ironically like gangsta rap? Given that and the fact that the Hipster is white do you think its more likely that theres a class issue here? Indie music is definitely a upper-middle class college campus thing here (though most of the music probably comes from middle class-upper working class kids).
I don't think race really has anything to do with a bands musical output whatsoever, and, in some way, a lot of people do. I don't understand the hip-hop cultures seeming monomaniac obsession with race any more than I understand heterosexual men not wanting it up the poopchute. I mean, to illustrate an example: outside the NSBM and NSBM friendly twats, I don't think any metalhead would actually judge a band on, whether they were, say, black (like most of the admittedly ironically named Znowhite) or asian (countless amazing Japanese and other bands), they would judge them on the music, whilst, seemingly, a white rapper already has quite a hurdle to overcome anyway, and basically has to key in to black culture to have any success (whilst, a band, like, say, Sigh, might be entirely rooted in Japanese culture). I'm rambling off on this without being PC, by the way, so no offence to anyone. It's just, like I say, I don't ever actually consider race as an issue in music (or any walk of life, really), so I don't talk or think about this sort of thing much.
This is a huge difference between smart progressive people on opposite sides of the pond. Over here the color-blindness thing has become a way hide racism behind the conscious mind and structural barriers. Theres all sorts of cultural reasons for why hip-hop acts need to connect to black culture (and I don't really think its a bad thing). In anycase the distinction you make between the real life and the fantasy aesthetic does a pretty good job explaining this- if your art is going to address the real world and you're going to use a form invented by urban blacks then you can't not address race if you live in the US.
Remember, the hipster in the street ascribes to that first, 'reality-centric' aesthetic. He thrives on post-modernism, and popular culture, and thus the representations he sees of metalheads to him embody metalheads. Any metalheads he may meet who differ from his ideas are exceptions to the rule.
Do you think that your "hipster in the street" might be as much of a strawman stereotype as that hipster's conceptiong of a metalhead? And can you at least give us a working definition of post-modernism? I feel like you're just throwing it around.
I think your main thesis is really sound though.
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Once I brought a Children Of Bodom cd to my "Great Music Listening" course and played for my teacher and the class, the last 90 seconds of "Kissing The Shadows" - what I feel is a particularly inspired shredfest.
Prof. likened the music to that of Niccolo Paganini. I could definitely see that. The class seemed afraid to react to it, though we had just completed a course that explained to everyone in attendance how to fully dissect complicated music and pick out any ostinatos, leitmotifs, or straight up riffs among myriad weeegley-woos and meedley-mrroowwws. The class seemed to all send me a telepathic signal, "don't you realize that metal is dorky, dork?"
I realize that doesn't really address what we're talking about. But I just remembered about this story.
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This thread reminded me of why I don't like to talk about my music tastes. Because, as we've been discussing, people judge you by what you listen to. I've seen people on this forum try and discredit someone else's opinion based on something they like. Should it fucking matter whether or not one likes Avril Lavinge? (I think I spelled that wrong) If you like her, does that mean you cannot judge music fairly? That you can't also like jazz?
Also! It's funny how Khar is condemning the hipster dismissal of metalheads, yet is stereotyping hipsters. Er, that came out bitcher than I meant it.
What I'm pretty always trying to say all the fucking time is people really need to lighten up...
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Or light one up. Now am I right or am I right?
(http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/blogs/static/dowbrigade/spliff.jpg)
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This probably requires a whole other thread but I think this whole idea of "liking something ironically" is a really weird claim. Maybe you could articulate better what exactly you mean by this. If I like something ironically does that mean I don't REALLY like it? Do I not enjoy listening to it? Is it part of some kind of social posturing? I know a lot of fans of indie music myself included (I don't know if you'd include me in your "hipster" catagory) who sincerely like some hip hop which is saturated by self-reference. How does a post-modern self-reference differs from a regular self reference.
Hipsters (and yes, I know that is a generalised term as hipsters do not self-define, and it covers a good range of people, but it is a category I will have to employ to say anything useful, to be honest) seem to enjoy the cultural trappings of the thing, rather than the thing itself. The hipster finds it impossible to seperate metal from the context in which he understands it: Maiden shirts with the sleeves torn off, denim and leather, pabst blue ribbon, bad hair, etc. etc. and in the musical sense the cheesyness, bad lyrics, etc. There always seems to be a certain level of 'I LOVE THE 80's' to the stereotypical Hispter's (lets call him SH from now on) appreciation of metal. There isn't any sort of emotional connection with the music, which is why our SH will probably hate guitar heroics, because he can't ever see past them as 'masturbation'.
This is sort of curious. First, doesn't the "The Hipster" also ironically like gangsta rap? Given that and the fact that the Hipster is white do you think its more likely that theres a class issue here? Indie music is definitely a upper-middle class college campus thing here (though most of the music probably comes from middle class-upper working class kids).
I refer you to the phenomenon of top 50 album lists containing 48 all-white rock and electronic artists and exactly one Public Enemy and one Miles Davis album.
Do you think that your "hipster in the street" might be as much of a strawman stereotype as that hipster's conceptiong of a metalhead? And can you at least give us a working definition of post-modernism? I feel like you're just throwing it around.
Post-modernism is a hard thing to define indeed, but I think I'd probably sum it up as a cultural attitude built on immersion in a fragmented popular culture. Post-modernism is about intertextual reference, appropriation and the idea that it is hard to stratify the worth of cultural artifacts. In practice it expresses itself as an obsession with cultural ephemera. That's not such a good description, but to be fair most people would have trouble with it, it's a nebulous concept. The important thing to note, however, is that it sets up another set of oppositions between the two world-views we're talking about. The modern world is, in fact, really the post-modern world, in the way general culture, art, music etc. operate. Metal, on the other hand, is firmly stuck back in the cultural past, in a romantic tradition that still clings to the mythical archetypes and meta-narratives that post-modernism has dissected. You could also argue that metal derives from folk culture and appropriated high culture, whilst our nebulous definition of indie or whatnot is pop culture.
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Also! It's funny how Khar is condemning the hipster dismissal of metalheads, yet is stereotyping hipsters. Er, that came out bitcher than I meant it.
I don't think it's possible to bring every possible hipster into the equation, and let's face it most people already have preconcieved opinions of others based on their musical tastes regardless of what genre they themselves belong.
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I am currently attempting to locate this gentlemans phone number.
(http://www.eveprime.com/images/portfolio/hipster.2.jpg)
Although Tommy, to be quite frank, in the sense I'm talking, you can just talk to yourself.
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From Google:
A hipster is a person who derives his identity largely through his association with a subculture which has been deemed "hip," a word taken from African American Vernacular English (AAVE). Hip means "fashionably current," and likely came from the Wolof word hipi, meaning "to open one's eyes," or "to be aware."
What a silly term to use as a stereotype. There are far too many subcultures which have greater hipness than the mainstream. Even some metalheads qualify as hipsters by this token.
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Maybe Khar has a point. I don't know one person who's into y?-y? that isn't a hipster bastard.
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Hipsters try to win arguments with wikipedia and smugness.
I'm not scapegoating anyone, I'm trying to discuss a cultural archetype which, like it or not, definitely exists, and is definitely represented by a good 80% of the people on this board. You can wiffle about the language all you want, and try and come up with proofs and examples, but you know exactly what I mean by the word, just as everyone really knows exactly what someone else means when they say indie.
And let me give you a clue, it isn't Whitehouse of the Mull Historical Society.
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I am merely suggesting that at most we make a valid attempt to return the term "hipster" to its original definition. You'll note that it doesn't anywhere say "they enjoy things ironically." They just identify themselves as being part of a subculture that has some level of cultural appeal to it. They are "hip."
I know very few people who enjoy things ironically. Everything I listen to and like I legitimately enjoy. I would be willing to say that the same volume of people that you characterize as living this archetype of "hipsterism" are the same way.
Oh, and -
It is about larger than life characters in unreal situations, dressed like Satans take on the village people. When metal comments on the world, it comments on issues outside most peoples experience, mostly historical and military. It is exaggerated, stark, brash, and comes off to supporters of the first aesthetic as adolescent and crude, whilst to its fans it can offer literally transcendent emotion.
Rap is about larger than life characters in unreal situations, dressed like basketball players take on the Godfather. When hip-hop comments on the world, it comments on issues outside most peoples experience, mostly in the ghetto. It is exaggerated, stark, brash, and comes off to supporters of the first aesthetic as adolescent and crude, whilst to its fans it can offer literally transcendent emotion.
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I'm not saying that everything Hipsters enjoy is ironic. Neither am I claiming that what I call 'ironic' appreciation is false. I'm just saying that different aspects of a thing, perhaps in the case of metal more superficial aspects, are appreciated. There are plenty of metalheads who just like the superficial things: these are the people who will 'grow out' of metal.
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That's not what I want to do at all. Also, I'd like to point out to you that by reading what I have written on the internet, even if you have read all of it, you still do not actually have an accurate picture of my personality. Yes, I probably come off as an angry person. There is a lot to make anyone angry in the world. It is through creative expression that I ground this anger. My blog is as much catharsis as anything else, as is a lot of my music and art. I don't think you'll find much existential anger in my proper articles or reviews. As far as being angry here, well, people just piss me off. Being patronised, for example, I can't stand it. It makes me want to hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
Still, I don't walk around in a constant spitting fury, and neither are all my posts angry, by far. As for Misanthropy, I am really actually quite an optimist about the human condition. I just don't happen to like the configuration it's got itself in to. I don't loathe people, I loathe popular culture.
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Thus far there has been no response to my assertion that Khar's argument about metal's "other" appeal has remarkable parallels with hip-hop. I think we can all agree this thread would be better if people responded to things I said.
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How do you mean, metals other appeal?
I do remember reading an editorial (getting back to that damn race thing) that was posted on Metal Crypt, basically about how people shouldn't expect to see that many black people involved in metal, because it was completely born out of white culture in the 70's and 80's, in the same way hip-hop was born out of black culture, in a sense making them each others bastard racial twins, or something. It's not a bad argument really. Also, it includes this paragraph, which is one of the truest things I've ever read:
I had this dream once: it was Beowulf coming out of the lake in front of Grendel?s cave. Only instead of holding a broken sword over his head, he had a big-ass guitar on which he proceeded to play this fucking cool guitar solo while all the thanes on shore headbanged. It was incredibly stupid, but it was also really cool. The way you can tell if you are metal is if you think that sounds cool too, no matter how stupid it is.
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I think you guys should get a room and intellectually copulate so that the nine headed demon baby that is spawned from said union can lead us all to true musical glory.
I had this dream once: it was Beowulf coming out of the lake in front of Grendel?s cave. Only instead of holding a broken sword over his head, he had a big-ass guitar on which he proceeded to play this fucking cool guitar solo while all the thanes on shore headbanged. It was incredibly stupid, but it was also really cool. The way you can tell if you are metal is if you think that sounds cool too, no matter how stupid it is.
Oh... and I think that's fucking awesome!
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Being patronised, for example, I can't stand it.
I don't understand how you could feel patronised by anything I say or do. I am so obviously an idiot. There are vats of fermenting yeast out there more intellectually capable than I. I honestly count on my fingers and toes. Once you bear stuff like this in mind, surely you can see how this would be pretty much the furthest thing from my mind. Wouldn't the ability to patronise rely on having some self esteem? Nope, don't have any of that.
This is not what I'm saying. I am saying you are being condescending towards me by dint of the fact that you are taking your age as an indication that you have reached a superior state of mental maturity to me and guiding me towards such a state. To me, that comes off as patronising. You do it, probably, without realising it.
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So... metal is like a chick with a dick?
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Well duh. Chicks with dicks are hot.
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You recently claimed that this forum is being mired by the 'cult of personality' that surrounds me and yet you seem to miss the irony of making this forum another one in which all the denizens do is talk about what an asshole I am. Let's not do that, it's duller than dishwater.
Dudes, Tommy is such an asshole. Actually, an arsehole. I think he's British or something shit like that.
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(http://991.com/newgallery/Gun-Word-Up---Part-1-53770.jpg)
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How do you mean, metals other appeal?
By "other" I mean the fantastical qualities you described. I'm talking about your thesis that a significant chunk of metal's appeal comes from the fact that it outlines such dramatically different circumstances than the average person's experience, and that through that detailing of a contrasting experience to the ordinary it offers transcendence.
That Beowulf dream is fucking awesome.
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Every single word Sargon the Terrible has written makes me want to torture kittens, but Fuck Me, that is a very appealing dream.
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I know, I generally think of him as a few degrees above 'bigoted fuckwit', but that editorial makes a reasonably good point, and that dream is just so cool.
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Thus far there has been no response to my assertion that Khar's argument about metal's "other" appeal has remarkable parallels with hip-hop. I think we can all agree this thread would be better if people responded to things I said.
I'm being terribly elitist by posting as such I suppose, but Hip-Hop in its most mainstream form is based around the degredation of women and the constant need for violence for the sake of showing off. In addition, it further stereotypes the difference between white people and black people.
Metal, on the other hand, is a commentary on religion, mythology and history that fails to comment on the differences between genetically differing groups of human beings. Both genres prefer to have an agressive presentation, but there the similarities end.
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Tommy, I think it's a bit hypocritical of you to call Khar's use of the term 'hipster' a stereotype for the soft-minded when you routinely dismiss metal, which in itself is as varied as indie, as being for fifteen-year-olds and people who live with their parents. In jest or not, it's condescending and going directly against what you're arguing here.
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I know, I generally think of him as a few degrees above 'bigoted fuckwit', but that editorial makes a reasonably good point, and that dream is just so cool.
Is there any chance you could link to that whole article?
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I'm being terribly elitist by posting as such I suppose, but Hip-Hop in its most mainstream form is based around the degredation of women and the constant need for violence for the sake of showing off. In addition, it further stereotypes the difference between white people and black people.
Metal, on the other hand, is a commentary on religion, mythology and history that fails to comment on the differences between genetically differing groups of human beings. Both genres prefer to have an agressive presentation, but there the similarities end.
No, you're not being elitist, you're participating in a civil discussion, which is appreciated! However I do have to disagree with some of your points.
I would say that by comparing hip-hop in its most mainstream form to all of metal you're starting off a bit shakily. The mainstream is the tip of the cultural iceberg, really. The second thing is the assertion that degredation of women is constant and violence exists for the sake of showing off. If you look at a lot of hip-hop records an awful lot are actually celebrations of women, and at the very least are no more degrading than the average objectifying MOR rock song. Meanwhile the violence is a result of circumstance, something that a lot of metal can't claim. The rappers who talk about violence grew up in violence. Who is a better candidate to discuss it, someone from urban Compton or someone from rural Finland?
Hip-hop isn't always about genetic differences either, though because of its roots in black America it often has to at least take those differences into account. You want to talk about the mainstream? How big of a hit was Kanye West's "Jesus Walks"?
(Oh, and as an interesting aside, hip-hop and metal both owe something to previous black music in America. While the MC tradition came partially from Jamaican tradition, the music of early hip-hop could be traced from funk to soul to rock'n'roll to jazz to blues to field hollers. Metal starts at rock and has to work its way back too, it just also has to switch threads so it can go back to romantic, baroque and other classical music.)
Hip-hop should create no more stereotypes to the culturally literate individual than metal does.
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I would say that by comparing hip-hop in its most mainstream form to all of metal you're starting off a bit shakily. The mainstream is the tip of the cultural iceberg, really. The second thing is the assertion that degredation of women is constant and violence exists for the sake of showing off. If you look at a lot of hip-hop records an awful lot are actually celebrations of women, and at the very least are no more degrading than the average objectifying MOR rock song. Meanwhile the violence is a result of circumstance, something that a lot of metal can't claim. The rappers who talk about violence grew up in violence. Who is a better candidate to discuss it, someone from urban Compton or someone from rural Finland?
Comparing it to all of mainstream metal is a bit low, to be sure, but even comparing it to the political commentaries of Metallica, the historical tellings of Iron Maiden and the religious questionings of Slayer the mainstream suggests that metal isn't quite as dumbheaded as people would like to think. I know there's different messages contained within less mainstream rap and I celebrate that by listening to it when it's presented to me, but the sad fact of the matter is that unless you dig for it, rap is fairly bankrupt of real meaning - arguably like most music.
(Oh, and as an interesting aside, hip-hop and metal both owe something to previous black music in America. While the MC tradition came partially from Jamaican tradition, the music of early hip-hop could be traced from funk to soul to rock'n'roll to jazz to blues to field hollers. Metal starts at rock and has to work its way back too, it just also has to switch threads so it can go back to romantic, baroque and other classical music.)
"Blues is the roots, the rest is just fruits" - some guy at my school.
I suppose both are guilty of celebrating race (i.e Viking Metal) and neither of them are guilty for real discrimination on that point.
The folly with this argument as a whole is that when you dig to the bottom of the pit, you'll find the same amount of emotional and intellectual depth in both genres. As far as what is being popularly broadcast, however, I maintain that rap is going to be more damaged in the long run due to the attitudes of today's mainstream artists narrowing the opening for good music within the genre - but to be fair, the nu-metal explosion seems to be doing the same thing for metal.
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Nu-metal is pretty much done at this point, now the scene is just flooded with cookie-cutter metalcore bands. It's a bit better, but not much.
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As far as I'm concerned, Nu-Metal isn't done until my friends stop pelting me with it or until those same friends are dead. : |
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Don't blame the rest of the world for your dumbass friends.
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Who is a better candidate to discuss it, someone from urban Compton or someone from rural Finland?
I know it's not a real point, but it would only really be a valid one if metal and hip-hop addressed the same kinds of violence. As for the differences in how they talk about violence, it upholds what I said originally. Hip-hop talks about real, gritty violence, whilst Metal talks about historical conflicts of fantasised, epic combats. To some who'd experienced real violence, metal may seem cartoonish, naieve, whatever, whilst to others it might not. Back to the aesthetics then. Remember also that at least 90% of metal at least, despite the level of detail, is in fact anti-war. It's normally more about horrors than glory, and even when it is, such as, say Ancient Rite's 'Victory or Valhalla' or 'North Sea', it often prominently notes the cost of victory and doesn't seem glad about the deaths. Right now, the only pro-war metal songs I can think of that come off as actually serious are all by NSBM or borderline fascists.
I suppose both are guilty of celebrating race (i.e Viking Metal) and neither of them are guilty for real discrimination on that point.
Viking metal is more of a celebration of culture and religion than race, although that element is present. It's not quite so bare-faced though, and there always seems to be not any real exclusivity: I mean, I'm sure plenty, maybe even the majority, of Forefather fans live outside the UK, and they get thrills from their music despite the very specific lyrics of songs like 'When Our England Died' and 'Proud to be Proud'. Australian Bathory fans can hardly be called sons of the north. I suppose its the same with a lot of hip-hop however, with things like Lady Sovereign getting big in the states: there's no way her lyrics can really address her audiences concerns head-on, so there must be something else there. Vis a vis the whole issue of racial or cultural pride in music, I stand divided. On one hand, I'm opposed to the essentially false categorisation and divisions that the world creates, of which nations and, to a lesser extent, races, are examples. On the other hand, if music or any other art form genuinely manages to uplift someone and make them feel good to be themselves, without denigrating anyone else, then I'm not sure I really see the problem with it, except that is probably far too easily integrated in to the cultural landscape of people who genuinely are racist. I'm a huge fan of folk music, I can see the point, and appeal, in celebrating your heritage and roots. People argue that it doesn't make sense to be proud of something you have no control over, but then again, it is a part of you, it's your culture and upbringing, and at the end of the day I think if everyone was more sure about who they were, cultural exchange would be much easier, coming from a more mutual footing. In a way, like my limited support for the ideas of localism, it's a strike against globalisation and the ghastly prospect of a monoculture. In an ideal world, people should be able to co-operate and work together without being the same, and maybe cultural pride is a part of that? I certainly note, and yes, this sounds like one of those two-faced conservative things to say, but the only people you see being denigrated for being proud for who they are in the western world is white people. Yes, there is a political climate in which 'white pride' is inextricably linked to the most utterly mindless form of racism going, but if so, shouldn't there be an alternative way for people to express their roots, without needing to hate and fear others? I think its the lack of something like that that fuels white supremacy in a way. I mean, look how comparatively fewer true black supremacists (a group anyone should find equally contemptible) there are compared to white supremacists, despite the fact that black supremacism has in fact crept far more in to the musical mainstream than white supremacism (Kill whitey!). Or has it? To be fair, I'm not really qualified to talk about race issues, I'm a white middle class boy from one of the last racially diverse areas of the UK (as a half-filipino friend once said, "I'll never get why my mum travelled three thousand miles to come here"). I get most of my understanding of it in the US from occasionally browsing through the Anti-Defamation League, the Southern Poverty Law Center and other such organisations websites. I still prefer to think of it as to do with culture rather than skin colour by the way, because I'm convinced thats what it is.
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That, ladies and germs, is a good post.
(although "kill whitey" is almost definitely a black panthers thing rather than a hip-hop thing)
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I've never sat through a whole album of hip-hop, so my information can only really come from what I read, which, I freely admit, may be a load of horseshit, because, hey, a lot of the things written on the internet are. However, this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_supremacy#Black_supremacism_in_music) and the sources it reference seem enough for me to judge that black artists have got away with saying things that, if said by a white person, would have relegated their musical career straight to the Resistance Records back catalogue and a nasty article by the ADL. I'm doing some further research now to see what real substance there is of this: I'm not going to accuse these artists of racism, just say they seem to have been involved with black supremacist organisations. No way I can really call that as inherently bad, given the histories of some of my favourite artists, but it does seem these people are more mainstream. May just be misinterpretation or someone picking up some backhanded republican rhetoric though. Can anyone suggest some tracks they might be referring to or something?
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The sources are fairly bogus. They're some guy's Netscape account that is accusing Rage Against The Machine, who appear to have at least one white guy in their ranks, of promoting anti-white violence. It also has this Ice-T quote and analysis:
He finishes his speech by relieving blacks of some or all fundamental responsibility and passing it off onto whites. He issues his ultimatums as follows: "or possibly am I intelligent enough to only hold the conditions of the ghetto itself to blame; not; who creates the conditions; who stops affirmative action and welfare; who loves the three-strikes law; didn't see them at the Million Man March. . . . Armageddon is near; I am the fourth rider of the apocalypse. . . . I hate you; you hate me. . . . we're gonna have nothing if we don't make a change soon. . . . racism is the number one enemy of earth; there's only one race, the human race; and if we don't get it together soon, this song is true: we are living in the last days." In the long quote above, Ice-T doubts the sincerity of whites because not many whites showed up at the Million Man March, and he tops off the sincerity test, which is steeped in his violent racism, by not denouncing Louis Farrakhan anywhere on his album.
If this guy was in my AP English class I would have laughed him out of the room. What about the bit where he says "racism is the number one enemy of earth / there's only one race, the human race / and if we don't get it together soon, this song is true / we are living in the last days"? Dude doesn't even address it. Really you can't just pick and choose lines and base wild accusations of violence-inciting racism off of them. The entire song is important.
The other article sourced includes this gem:
A ?rapper? is typically a talentless black who wants people to subsidize him, so that he doesn?t have to get a j-o-b. Rap aka Hip-Hop (r/h) has refuted the racist stereotype, according to which blacks have ?natural rhythm,? and revealed that the average black cannot sing, dance, compose music or write lyrics any better than the average white. Rappers? rants often consist of nothing but narcissistic self-promotion, where the performer brags about himself in the third person. When r/h recordings do include something recognizable as music, it is invariably through plagiarizing someone else?s earlier recording, which is known in r/h by the euphemism ?sampling.?
Why anyone would pay for r/h? When Frank Sinatra and Ella Fitzgerald were the world?s greatest singers, there was no question why fans would buy their records, rather than those cut by any random drunk warbling from a barstool. But with r/h, the hierarchy of talent, from tone-deaf amateur to virtuoso, collapsed. But worse even than in an aesthetic democracy, in r/h, the tone-deaf pretend-artist is king, the virtuoso an outcast.
The great singers of the Big Band Era and the Great American Songbook loved America, and in spite (or because) of having had to work like dogs before becoming rich, tended to have an attitude of gratitude for the blessings that had been bestowed upon them. Rappers, by contrast, are strangers to hard work and talent, and tend to revel in racism, violence, misogyny and anti-Americanism.
So much of r/h sounds like a parody of illiterate street blacks. But this, er, stuff is scribbled by people who haven?t an ironic bone in their bodies.
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Hmn, fair enough. I didn't read that page very closely, just the quotes one, which, I must say, seemed fairly transparent.
"Deal with the devil with my motherfucking steel [handgun]. . . . white man is something I tried to study, but I got my hands bloody, yeah. . . . I met Farrakhan and had dinner";
"When Will They Shoot"; Ice Cube, The Predator, 1992, Priority Records, Thorn EMI; now called The EMI Group, United Kingdom.
"I love black women and I hate fucking crackers. . . . I destroyed a whole city like Sodom and Gomorrah or Babylon. . . . devils choke from the gunsmoke. . . . I'm swelling devils' melons. . . . send your asses to Kings County; solo pro-morgue supplier";
"Graveyard Chamber"; Gravediggaz, 6 Feet Deep, 1997 reissue of a 1994 album, Gee Street Records, BMG Distribution, BMG Entertainment, Bertelsmann AG, Germany.
And so forth. Fair enough, this guy is cherry picking, he's got an agenda, and he's actually only quoting from five or six artists, but some of these are pretty popular and high charting. 6 Feet Deep, the Gravediggaz album that quotes from, got to number 36 in the overall billboard charts. And I mean, you really can't interprate around 'I hate fucking crackers'. I'm not even sure if this is a point I want to make, or where I'm going from it. I'm just sayin'. I know you can tear apart metal as all sorts of prejudiced, but this is pretty blatant.
EDIT: I found this (http://northstar.as.uky.edu/volume3/cheney.html), seems quite interesting and scholarly, not entirely related to what we're discussing, but its giving me some sort of insight.
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The link isn't loading for me, Khar.
I'm not sure about that "fucking crackers" line. In the context it appears it could be either "I hate whites" or "I hate having sex with white women." And you don't exactly hear about Gravediggaz very often. Besides, keep in mind that these lyrics were written during gangsta rap's heyday - ever since backpackers have started gaining credence there's been a significant shift towards attitudes of "let's change these conditions" rather than "let's place blame for them." Certainly there has been less support for the Nation of Islam and a general reduction in anti-white sentiment over the last few years, if only because whites make up a significant chunk of rap's audience. Why attack your listeners when you can appeal to them?
Really I think you ought to give at least one rap or hip-hop record a full listen. Pick something like Kanye West, Rhymefest, K-Os, Jurassic 5 or Common and go from there. Or pick something like Run DMC, The Beastie Boys, Public Enemy or Grandmaster Flash. Hip-hop is a really diverse and fascinating genre.
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I've heard all but two of those artists. I really have given rap a listen. I just don't like it, and I've outlined reasons why I probably don't earlier. It doesn't push any musical buttons for me, I find it hard to respect its artistry at least half the time, it rarely talks about things I care about, it doesn't even fit in very well with how I like to dance. I just don't like rap. I might like one song here and there for one reason or another (I think Goldie Lookin' Chain are funny every now and then). But, in general, it just isn't for me.
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Tommy, I think it's a bit hypocritical of you to call Khar's use of the term 'hipster' a stereotype for the soft-minded when you routinely dismiss metal, which in itself is as varied as indie, as being for fifteen-year-olds and people who live with their parents. In jest or not, it's condescending and going directly against what you're arguing here.
Are you sure? Can you find me examples of this? There might be but I don't think so. Look through my posts and read the comments in the context they were made.
I think you are wrong about this. I really do.
There are avenues of communication in this community beyond actual posting. The remarks in question were made in Gabbly, and numerous times, I might add.
Not that I would do anything stupid like hold a grudge because of that.
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Hipsters (and yes, I know that is a generalised term as hipsters do not self-define, and it covers a good range of people, but it is a category I will have to employ to say anything useful, to be honest) seem to enjoy the cultural trappings of the thing, rather than the thing itself. The hipster finds it impossible to seperate metal from the context in which he understands it: Maiden shirts with the sleeves torn off, denim and leather, pabst blue ribbon, bad hair, etc. etc. and in the musical sense the cheesyness, bad lyrics, etc. There always seems to be a certain level of 'I LOVE THE 80's' to the stereotypical Hispter's (lets call him SH from now on) appreciation of metal. There isn't any sort of emotional connection with the music, which is why our SH will probably hate guitar heroics, because he can't ever see past them as 'masturbation'.
I'm still pretty skeptical of you contention that "the Hipster" is at all useful as a representation of real people. I sort of would like you to name some people on this forum who you consider hipsters- and I'm not saying that to call you out or something I just think it might help to clarify what you mean. Naming people could obviously lead to some flames and silly posts so I understand if you don't. Still 80% of this forum is hipsters? I don't think 80% of this forum is out of high school- that certainly contradicts my conception of hipsters.
But I'll accept the term for a moment to further the discussion on your other points-So the Hipster either refuses to enjoy metal qua metal and only enjoys it only as an ironic spectacle OR the Hipster does enjoys a metal act sincerely (say Agalloch) in which case they're actually divorcing the music from their conception of metal? If o the caricature you've created can't appreciate metal BY DEFINITION which makes any further discussion using your archetype impossible. I think its more likely that 1. bands like Agalloch and Opeth allow those who aren't metal fans reconceptualize metal and appreciate it outside of any "ironic context" in which they previously understood metal and 2. that the so-called "ironic appreciation" is a little more nuanced than you make it out to be. That is I sort of see where your coming from. However, I think what really happens is that people genuinely enjoy some metal but can't help viewing it with some kind of cultural-historical context. The result isn't a mocking disposition torward metal but rather a "wow this music is a little outside my reality and these people seem to take it rather seriously". The response isn't so much laughter as it is a blush. And I'm not sure this doesn't exist to an extent among metal fans. Do you really not chortle at "to that place where cunning lingers"? Even that Sargon the Terrible guy pointed out that the Beowulf dream was pretty stupid (despite also being really awesome).
I refer you to the phenomenon of top 50 album lists containing 48 all-white rock and electronic artists and exactly one Public Enemy and one Miles Davis album.
Thats sort of my point. The Hipster doesn't really seem to think hip-hop is all that cool either (unless I'm misinterpreting your strawman).
Post-modernism is a hard thing to define indeed, but I think I'd probably sum it up as a cultural attitude built on immersion in a fragmented popular culture. Post-modernism is about intertextual reference, appropriation and the idea that it is hard to stratify the worth of cultural artifacts. In practice it expresses itself as an obsession with cultural ephemera. That's not such a good description, but to be fair most people would have trouble with it, it's a nebulous concept. The important thing to note, however, is that it sets up another set of oppositions between the two world-views we're talking about. The modern world is, in fact, really the post-modern world, in the way general culture, art, music etc. operate. Metal, on the other hand, is firmly stuck back in the cultural past, in a romantic tradition that still clings to the mythical archetypes and meta-narratives that post-modernism has dissected. You could also argue that metal derives from folk culture and appropriated high culture, whilst our nebulous definition of indie or whatnot is pop culture.
Right, I mean I'm a likely phil major and was a high school debater- I just wasn't sure how you were using it. I'm just not convinced this "Hipster" is the personification of post-modernism you make her out to be- but then were come back to the point that this archetype is yours and you can make it mean whatever you want it to. To begin with cultural stobbiness isn't usually associated with an objection to a cultural hierarchy. I'm also not convinced that post-modernism precludes us from taking up a romantic, modernist perspective at least temporarily. Post-modernism constitutes a rejection of the cannon as an idea not neccesarily a rejection of works that are part of the cannon. Even if we're a little too self-aware I think someone can sincerely enjoy metal and still have a post-modern understand of music.
I also think its super intriguing that you've positioned yourself on the losing side of an intellectual battle.
"And I mean, you really can't interprate around 'I hate fucking crackers'. I'm not even sure if this is a point I want to make, or where I'm going from it. I'm just sayin'. I know you can tear apart metal as all sorts of prejudiced, but this is pretty blatant.
I'm not so sure. There is a lot of posturing in hip-hop. This strikes me as something said to offend and build the rappers on-mic personality- not a sincere political statement.
That said wasn't Wu Tang all part of some religion that believed ever black person was a demi-god... or something. I'm sure I'm butchering it but I seem to recall something vaguely black-supremicist about that.
I have trouble being all that offended by black-supremicists since they're isn't a systematic oppression of white people. Since I'm not oppressed or particularly threatened by racism its hard to get upset. Plus every historically oppressed people have developed some sort of supremacy belief system (think "Gods chosen people"). Its actually remarkable black supremacy talk isn't more common.
Edit: God there are some smart people on this site.
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I think it's super intriguing that you think khar's on the losing side...
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Well, I think he's wrong in assuming that hipsters hate the cultural trappings of metal. Hipsters pride themselves in liking things others are repulsed by, such as dressing like a cowboy (I hate this, and people who do it) and wearing those stupid ear-stretching earrings. I don't think that hipsters hate metal by default, I just think that there is a rift on this forum between those who predominately listen to indie and those who predominately listen to metal. And something you must remember is that, while some hipster styles have creeped into the indie mainstream (man ain't that a heavy word pairing), you're probably not a hipster unless you live in New York.
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That said wasn't Wu Tang all part of some religion that believed ever black person was a demi-god...
Well, man, Wu-Tang Gods ain't nothin' to fuck with.
Flaming Ostrich, I found that post kind of disappointing, just because of this line:
I just think that there is a rift on this forum between those who predominately listen to indie and those who predominately listen to metal.
If you will read this thread again and look through other, similar threads you will discover that folk like Kai, Jeph, and myself are trying to bridge that rift as well as they can. It is when people are closed-minded about either genre that the rift develops. Rest assured though that the effort to reduce any discord between these two is quite sincere.
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Well, I'm overweight.
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Fatass...
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See the idea is that hipsters are normally skinny.
This thread is no longer about my body shape.
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Thats sort of my point. The Hipster doesn't really seem to think hip-hop is all that cool either (unless I'm misinterpreting your strawman).
The Hipster, who I'm using by the way to define people who listen to indie and are involved in the culture surrounding such music, ie, 80% or so of the people on this site, because I thought it would be less perjorative than 'indie kid' (There goes my attempt to try and not be offensive), isn't the only person adopting our reality centric post-modern worldview: as I said in my first post, this is the aesthetic of the mainstream. Indie is just a more obscure, more refined, more elitist branch of it. It's also the aesthetic embraced by hip-hop, and most mainstream...electronica? Christ on a trike, I don't know the words for these genres. The 'indie person', let us call him, is a definite category of person, linked by their overlapping cultural tastes, attitudes, aesthetics, value judgements etc. People who watch the same films, but music by the same bands from the same record labels, discuss things on the same internet forums, read the sames websites and zines, go to the same shows, and so on and so forth. There is, like it or not, a definite subculture. Obviously, the group could not possibly be defined by one single archetype, my 'straw man' as you term it (I wouldn't consider it a straw man, because up until now I had not been aware that we had a two-sided argument going, nor was I aware that this archetypal figure was central to my arguments, nor was I aware that I was using this archetype to misrepresent the position of my opponents in this argument. I thought this was a discussion. I agree its a nice strong word to throw around to decredit what I'm saying, but please.) However, the archetype, this 'hipster' represents what I, as an external observer, percieve to be perhaps the middle of the road of this group. Maybe it is the lowest common denominator, and if so I apologise. However, at the end of the day, the figure was just an examplar to explain how my main thesis of differing aesthetic world views, which you have said you agree with, or at least respect, applies to the real world, and how it can affect peoples appreciation of things. Please remember that I am writing all this on the fly on an internet forum. I don't have notes. Still, I believe I am making my best attempt to present my ideas cohesively and discuss them with others who may hold differing opinions.
The response isn't so much laughter as it is a blush. And I'm not sure this doesn't exist to an extent among metal fans. Do you really not chortle at "to that place where cunning lingers"? Even that Sargon the Terrible guy pointed out that the Beowulf dream was pretty stupid (despite also being really awesome).
Again, I only can go on my observations. My observations are not of blushes, but rather people, who I believe to belong to a grouping associated with indie music, observing that my musical tastes are immature, that the artists I listen to are worthless, that there is no artistry in the metal scene, that it is for white trash/white supremacists, and that 'one day I'll grow up and listen to real music'. I could find some examples just from this forum, but I can't be bothered because I don't want to engage in muck-raking.
Actually, I don't chortle at 'That place where cunning lingers' I woop, if anything. It's a great line that perfectly concludes the song, which is fusing sexual imagery with pagan imagery to represent Martins view of paganism as a liberating force that can easily overcame the staid 'virtues' of christianity, whilst having fun at the same time ('Cunning' (originally from a Middle english word meaning 'to know', 'connen', which is why subs have conning towers) or 'The Craft of the Wise' are euphemisms for pagan lore). It's a fucking good song. As for finding metal silly...I can't say that I really do. Maybe it's a form of doublethink. I suppose on one level I know that, say, 'Supersatan', by Cryptic Wintermoon, is pretty silly, but on a much more conscious level I'm also aware that's it's fucking awesome. To be honest, what we think is 'silly' may define this aesthetic quite well. Sargon thinks his dream is silly, but that's, I suspect, at least partly in his own defence, and he pretty much says that, if that's silly, and geeky, then he wants to be a silly geek. I, on the other hand, consider, for example, The Postal Service to be pretty fucking silly. I mean, come on, that vid, with the kitchen appliances, and eating gop out of jars? That's ridiculous. The Decemberists? The Fiery Furnaces? Deerhoof? To me it all seems very silly, and rather pointless. But then I'll go out and see some insane Coil video which basically just consists of disjointed beats and fragments of Wagner and someone whispering about the death of love and naked men with laurel leave headgear oiling themselves in a thunderstorm or something and think it's the best thing ever. Different aesthetics. Different tastes.
To begin with cultural stobbiness isn't usually associated with an objection to a cultural hierarchy. I'm also not convinced that post-modernism precludes us from taking up a romantic, modernist perspective at least temporarily. Post-modernism constitutes a rejection of the cannon as an idea not neccesarily a rejection of works that are part of the cannon.
Stobbiness? You mean snobbiness, right? For the first point, I don't think I ever said that. I was defining post-modernism in an academic sense, meaning to refer to the current ideas in art and music or whatever where people are quite ready to appreciate, and pay lots of money for, art by people like David Shrigley and Tracy Emmin, people who produce works of art that show no greatly developed skill, and do not directly address great questions or issues, and deliberately cast against any standards of finesse or 'high culture', can still be highly valued because they possess some quality of cultural insight, they have the zeitgeist, as it were. However, this doesn't necessary reject an artistic heirarchy, just an established one, and it doesn't even really do that. David Shrigley would be working in an office cubicle if he hadn't gone to Glasgow School of Fine Art.
Even if we're a little too self-aware I think someone can sincerely enjoy metal and still have a post-modern understand of music.
No doubt. I wouldn't claim to not engage with post-modernist thought. It would be rather hard having been born and educated in the post-modern age.
I also think its super intriguing that you've positioned yourself on the losing side of an intellectual battle.
Pardonnez-mois?
I'm not so sure. There is a lot of posturing in hip-hop. This strikes me as something said to offend and build the rappers on-mic personality- not a sincere political statement.
Oh, what, so, if I were to start a black metal band, it would be totally cool for me to write a song about how much I would have enjoyed stoking the fires at Buchenwald, just to make myself appear more extreme, maybe court the Polish skinhead demographic? It's racism any way you cut it.
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Well, here's something to think about, maybe.
No musical genre is inheritantly bad. Even if a genre was started by a racist, sexist twit... As it continued, people who weren't would probably get involved and make the same music. And there are so many differrent people making music of all kinds, just because there's hip-hop that promotes racism doesn't mean there isn't hip-hop that promotes peace. Though I wouldn't know if it's in the minority or in the majority, but that still wouldnt prove a genre was bad.
I mean, what if horror movies or comedies were first done by a sexist? Would that mean comedies for all eternities were bad? No, there are comedies with racist and sexist jokes, and there are ones without them. I mean, there are bands of every genre that are racist and sexist, whether prevelent or not, they're there. Because it's music. All sorts of people like it. All sorts of people will make it. Things will shift, sometimes the crap comes out on top. Sometimes the good does. Sometimes it's even. But nothing is inherently bad, so we shouldnt really be trying to discredit a genre, should we?
Oh, and one more thing, I've also encountered a lot of people who claim metal is immature and I should try out real music. Now, I'd normally dismiss this as the usual "other people with differrent tastes that want to change mine" thing, where they argue what I like is crap because of this and this... But it's oddly diferrent. There seems to be some sort of deep prejudice against metal, a need to discredit it because it's "wrong". It's sort of amusing.
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I'm not. I don't relish this argument, it's just Johnny said that the 'Kill Whitey' New Black Panthers attitude wasn't really present in hip-hop, which did not jive with what I knew, so I corrected him, and voi-la. I'm in no way trying to suggest that all of hip-hop is racist, sexist or homophobic, but I am maybe saying that it does manage to evade criticism on its political correctness a lot more than some other music.
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Yeah, I didn't think you were, really. And I completely agree, it's rather strange. This may sound racist it's self, but I think black people get away with racism a lot more in general. But that's a discussion on how society has shaped it's self and mistakes of the past and how they affect us with guilt and such, not really the point.
And then there's the fact that metal in general seems to be treated as bad, you'd think that attitude would have died out by now.
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It's dying out, but we still need to plunge the fiery sword of zeus into its heart. The attitude's heart, I mean.
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It's dying out, but we still need to plunge the fiery sword of zeus into its heart. The attitude's heart, I mean.
I want you to know that that's, like, being saved by me. That's one of the coolest quotes ever.
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I also think its super intriguing that you've positioned yourself on the losing side of an intellectual battle.
It's very interesting that you place it this way. Surely, being able to understand the metaphors associated with today's life in mythology and whatnot shows some degree of intelligence?
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LOL and I'm willing to sell it to you man. All yours, only 49.95.
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It's very interesting that you place it this way. Surely, being able to understand the metaphors associated with today's life in mythology and whatnot shows some degree of intelligence?
To be honest I think I naturally show some degree of intelligence but I'm keeping out of this for a bit because I'm DRUNK
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Onoes, but all of your most witty and incisive commentary comes when you're fucked off your nuts!
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I assumed Khar's "Hipster" was the same sort of deal as "Jock" or "Goth" or any other completely arbitrary label people put on others. It was just to prove a point, which I think he successfully did.
I guess a lot of people would consider me a hipster, by the music I listen to, the books I read and the movies I watch. I've never seen metal as silly though... mostly the first thing that comes to mind when I think of it is musicianship. Good metal bands (from what I've seen) really can play their instruments well. It's necessary. In indie pop/rock/whatevz it is not always that necessary.
(I think I took down the intellectual quality of this thread four points. Sorry guys!)
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It should be interesting to point out that technically, metal bears a huge resemblence to classical music in composition and skill requirement. This, at least, showcases the mental capabilities of those who play and practise such a style.
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you're probably not a hipster unless you live in New York.
@Tommy- That's probably the only important phrase in my post.
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I'm not. I don't relish this argument, it's just Johnny said that the 'Kill Whitey' New Black Panthers attitude wasn't really present in hip-hop, which did not jive with what I knew, so I corrected him, and voi-la.
Actually all I said was that the attitude didn't originate with hip-hop. Like any genre of music, hip-hop has its ugly side; however, I hesitate to characterize any genre by what it's like at its worst.
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I've never seen metal as silly though... mostly the first thing that comes to mind when I think of it is musicianship. Good metal bands (from what I've seen) really can play their instruments well. It's necessary. In indie pop/rock/whatevz it is not always that necessary.
(I think I took down the intellectual quality of this thread four points. Sorry guys!)
On the contrary, I think you've elevated the civility of the discussion very handily.
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Me:
I also think its super intriguing that you've positioned yourself on the losing side of an intellectual battle.
Let me just clarify what I meant by this since like 4 people have commented on it. I was really unclear. I don't mean that you specifically are losing any kind of argument. But the way you've framed things metal sort of gets labeled outdated and culturally irrelevant. Its fashionable in a lot of circles to explain how your beliefs are consistent with or adapt to post-modernism. The unabashed placing of metal in modern/romantic tradition is interesting in that post-modernism seems to be winning all the intellectual battles of the past few decades. I'll maybe get to the rest of your response tomorrow Khar. Or not, you all respond way to fast to these things for me to keep up.
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That's what I was commenting on - those romantic ideas might be culturally irrelevant without context, but few metalheads and fewer artists will listen to/write a song about slaying dragons for the sake of it. The messages contained within metal are rarely clear, cryptic at best. Within the mind of someone who is prepared to analyse their meaning, however, the romantic content quickly becomes far more relevant as the lister explains and reconciles it with the social elements around them.
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And I don't mean to beat a dead horse or anything, but metal is a big genre. As an example, I am going to quote Nevermore's song Godmoney:
Hey, just what have you become
With a cash vindication
Do you think that buys salvation's end?
Do you see through me?
I'm the plastic face on your screen
Mind control
They say that we're in the final days
Religion is power
Because most of us feel like rats in a maze
Do you worship me?
I'm a bastard saint, I'm a sycophant
A parasite that lives for just one goal
Mind control
Send your money to Jesus Christ
Mail order your eternal life
Bend your mind, make you turn around
Don't believe it when they tell you
That even God needs money
God needs money from you
Shame can't even make them learn
They feed off the weak
And if there's a hell they're gonna burn
On your screen they worship me
I'm a bastard saint, I'm a sycophant
A parasite that lives for just one goal
Mind control
Hey, just what have you become
With a cash vindication
Do you think thy buys salvation's end?
Do you see, worship me
I'm a bastard saint of the color green
Is there anything about slaying dragons in there? Because if so, I don't see any. And the message of this song doesn't seem particularly outdated or culturally irrelevant, either.
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Well, if you wanted to do the intelligent thing and look at metal as a whole genre, then the discussion is quickly useless and irrelevent. I suppose here we're looking at the more typically stereotyped Power Metal and Black Metal subgenres than metal as a whole.
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What was his point then? As far as I can tell the point is "my taste in music is better than everyone else's". Over and over ad nauseam. I guess I'm missing the point. Maybe someone can bullet-point it for me. Can I assume the mantle of a muderous paedophile to "prove a point"? Can I label 80% of this forum as fuckwits to "prove a point"? Would this point be worth hearing? Is this a Fatster conspiracy?!
Give it a break. Khar didn't say that 80% of the forum was lesser or stupid - he said that 80% of the forums had hugely different tastes and a different take on music than he did. That's all.
Now, what you are doing, Tommy, is looking down upon one of the most intelligent posters on the forum and discrediting his opinion off-handedly at once. As someone who shares his opinions I can't help but be taken aback by your abruptness and lack of willingness to look from a different perspective.
To top it off, your labelling of Khar as a "murderous paedophile" does nothing but to tell of your lack of understanding for not only his argument, but generally of the Heavy Metal genre, its fans and practitioners as a whole.
Quite frankly I thought you'd argue a point less based on the debasing of others.
Bryan, those are some shitty lyrics man. I know there are good lyrics out there you could have used but those are not they. If someone brought those lyrics to band practice I would reconsider being in that band. I'm worried that you might post some more and the credibilty of the other, stronger arguments is going to be lost. Just a thought.
Right, two things wrong here.
He brought them up to show that metal lyrics had depth beyond sword-slinging.
Secondly, judging lyrics without a song to place them is exactly what we're trying to avoid in this thread.
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You don't really need music to determine that lyrics are shit. You just kind of read them and think, "these are really cliche/cheesy/fucking godawful."
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To top it off, your labelling of Khar as a "murderous paedophile" does nothing but to tell of your lack of understanding for not only his argument, but generally of the Heavy Metal genre, its fans and practitioners as a whole.
Right, two things wrong here.
He brought them up to show that metal lyrics had depth beyond sword-slinging.
Secondly, judging lyrics without a song to place them is exactly what we're trying to avoid in this thread.
For your first point, he didn't say Khar was one, and when reading that post I didn't think it was implied. To the best of my knowledge neither poster frequents 4chan so it is likely to assume that Tommy is not talking about anyone on this forum but rather a fictional character which he was utilizing to prove a point.
As far as the lyrics go, your first point is correct, but your second point is bogus. There are lyrics I have written which are such shit that I have actually destroyed them without writing music for them or setting them to existing music. Some bands lack my restraint.
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For your first point, he didn't say Khar was one, and when reading that post I didn't think it was implied. To the best of my knowledge neither poster frequents 4chan so it is likely to assume that Tommy is not talking about anyone on this forum but rather a fictional character which he was utilizing to prove a point.
The principle is the same - Tommy was using a depiction of what presumably he thought of (satricly, but still insultingly) as a metalhead to make a point that added absolutely nothing and could only be seen as flamebaiting.
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No, he wasn't. If I said, "I could take on the mantle of someone wearing an aluminium pot as a hat and declare that everyone not wearing an aluminium pot on their head has godawful taste," I would not be characterizing metalheads. In fact the context of Tommy's quote is discussing the "hipster" archetype (which, if it actually does exist, must exist in much larger towns than mine) to prove a point. He wasn't discussing metalheads at all.
As an aside regarding the "hipster" idea, even people who like the same things here in Regina don't like all the same things, share an identical sense of humour or anything. There is no more overlap between attendees at indie concerts here than there is between people in any other social setting. It is an okay term to describe a very broad group of people but it is, for reasons I've already outlined, a poor piece of nomenclature to prove a point with.
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I was thinking, momentarily, of posting some Sabbat/Skyclad lyrics, maybe Arcturus, Vintersorg, Borknagar, something along those lines. However, it would be pointless, except as an illustration that metal is in no way limited to songs about dungeons and/or dragons. It would be pointless because people who do not subscribe to the aesthetic of metal would probably thing they were shit. What lyrics they would appreciate I don't know, because I don't understand their aesthetic. That's been my point here: that there are fundamental underlying reasons of taste why some people like metal, and some people don't, and why some people like indie, and some people don't, and so on and so on, and I think it's unrealistic to really expect everyone to be able to embrace every form of music in its totality. I like a few bands which you could probably call indie, for various reasons. I dislike a whole lot more. A good few 'persons of independent extraction' like a bit of metal, and dislike a whole lot more. I'm not saying these categories exist, but, in as far as I have read and studied aesthetics, culture and the history of culture, they seem a reasonable explanation for peoples violently differening taste. If you were able to comprehend these two differing worldviews completely, and I ain't saying it's not possible (though I think it's hard, because I don't think most people even think about the fact they might possess these worldviews), then you're a better man than I, Gunga Din. You probably also could have a pretty damn good career as a music journalist.
Let me just clarify what I meant by this since like 4 people have commented on it. I was really unclear. I don't mean that you specifically are losing any kind of argument. But the way you've framed things metal sort of gets labeled outdated and culturally irrelevant. Its fashionable in a lot of circles to explain how your beliefs are consistent with or adapt to post-modernism. The unabashed placing of metal in modern/romantic tradition is interesting in that post-modernism seems to be winning all the intellectual battles of the past few decades.
That makes two suppositions that I don't believe to be true:
1: That cultural evolution is a constantly improving linear process
2: That any one cultural framework or movement can claim complete dominance
It seems to me that the legacy of the original romantics still lives on quite strongly in the world. And, at the end of the day, I think Romanticism makes a useful counterpoint to a post-modern outlook. I will make no secret of the fact that I am unashamedly a romantic. Most people involved in metal, especially black and folk metal, by two favourite subgenres, who have any thoughts about the subject would agree. Now, there are a lot of criticisms levelled at romanticism, some of which I think have substance, some of which I think don't. Yes, the romantic worldview, at its most basic level, can be far too simplistic, too black and white. Yes, it can easily be used to glorify war and re-write history, and it has before. However, I don't agree at all with the argument that romanticism is anti-intellectual, anti-enlightenment and even pro-feudal. The mistake is to try and take apart romantic and fantastic fictions to far too high a level. The point of a fantasy story in which the hero is destined to defeat the dark lord and rule the kingdom is not to suggest that some people are born better than others and thus uphold aristocracy, the point is that the 'chosen one' could have been anyone. This is what people who try (I have seen it done quite a few ways) to interpet the Lord of the Rings as 'fascist' miss: the true heroes are the ordinary, unassuming hobbits, not the already mighty heroes like Aragorn. Fantastic literature shows characters rising up from nothing to great power, it's not upholding the establishment. But anyway, bit of a digression there, actually.
The point I'm trying to make, and probably not succeeding, is that I think Romanticism still has a definite place in this world, and that place is in the emotional and spiritual realm, which post-modernism cannot, at least for me, inherently satisfy. In fact, to this day movies and so on will incessantly plunder romantic imagery and literary constructs (most notably the pathetic fallacy) in order to give themselves emotional depth. Romanticism is just an outlook on life, an anti-modern one maybe, but then again, I have also never really made any secret of being, at least to some extent, anti-modern.
Hmmn, I probably haven't made this point too well, someone point out where I've cacked up and I'll try again later.
As far as I can tell the point is "my taste in music is better than everyone else's". Over and over ad nauseam.
Please, Tommy, give it a break. That's not what I've said in this thread at all, and you know it. It's maybe what you want me to have said, what you think I've said, or what you want others to think I've said, but I'll assure you, it's not what I've said, overtly or covertly, at any point in this discussion. You need to be a bit more rational. Why don't you try and isolate why you are so angry? :)
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I thought post-modernism had to do with an absorption and recognition of those previously-existing artistic movements like romanticism and an understanding that they have their place. The rejection of those movements was modernism.
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Actually, I'll admit that they aren't particularly good lyrics. But I was actually looking that song up at the time, and it was topically relevant, so whatever!
I don't really feel the need to defend myself on that particular topic. I like Nevermore a lot. Nothing Tommy or anyone else says is going to change that.
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FROM THE HAUNTED LOINS
OF THE FEVER WITCH
THE DEMONS LARVAE SPRANG!!
IN A MIGHTY EARTHEN CROCK
A LORD WAS BOILED WITH HIS BEEF
HIS BLOATED EYES POPPED FROM HIS HEAD
AND WERE STOLEN BY A THIEF
Honestly, I find most lyrics cheesy, its pretty much the least important part of the music for me.
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No, he wasn't.
I stand corrected. Apologies.
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Lyrics mean different things to different people
When night falls
she cloaks the world
in impenetrable darkness.
A chill rises
from the soil
and contaminates the air
suddenly...
life has new meaning.
Poetry or complete and utter garbage, I've heard people argue both ways.
People listen to music for different reasons, which is something a lot of "genre snobs" don't really get.
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I stand corrected. Apologies.
Nah man, it's cool. A large chunk of this thread has been about opposing baseless characterization.
Hat, is the worst thing that can happen to a man who's been boiled the theft of his eyes? Jeez. And you would think the springing would make them tired. Mister, I'm not sure how I feel about that band.
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But if I only listened to something like indie rock, or singer/songwriter stuff, just to name a couple examples, and refused to listen to anything heavy, no one would consider that a bad thing. So what is it about metal/hardcore/punk that makes it so acceptable in most people's eyes to ignore? If you're a metalhead who refuses to listen to jazz because you just don't care for it, people call you out on that as though it's a character flaw, but if you listen to jazz and ignore all metal for the same reason, you're somehow cultured and have "sophisticated taste?" I kind of don't get it?
Let's take another look at this question in particular.
In the earlier answers given it was assumed that neither side (jazz/metal) really tried to appreciate the other. So, this time, assuming both put an equal amount of attempted appreciation into the genres they do not generally like, why, exactly, is listening to predominately heavy music seen as in poorer taste?
This thread is a good showcase of a long-winded version of the answer. It basically shows that the condition of my above question is difficult to complete, even when being debated by generally intelligent people because of their preconceptions of music. I don't mean to lay anyone low or for them to be thought of as lesser, mind you - this isn't a case of superior tastes, but different ones.
Let's take Business Man Joe for example. He listened to heavy music in his adolescent years and since there wasn't an emotional connection to the music he grew out of it. As such, he doesn't seem to regard it as highly as other genres of music that appeal to his tastes more. His preconception is of adolescense - he enjoyed it in his growing years, but not so much anymore, so all signs point to him affiliating it with the foolishness and mistakes of those years.
Thus, Business Man Joe is already biased, whether he believes himself to be or not, against the heavy music of his youth. When he sees a youth listening to said music, all he can reconcile to that is his own experiences of that time and his own potential idiocy and mistakes.
Sounds biased and presumptuous as hell on my part, I know, but I think past experience is talking more than the actual music to those who once listened to it.
But I suppose those who never liked it are a different matter altogether.
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*yawn* Can we just start calling each other names and swearing a lot?? All this semi-intelligent debating is tiring me right out.
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Well, you for one, and quite a few others. It's easier to think of exceptions really. Remember that I'm just talking about people who listen to indie and generally ascribe to its aesthetics, which I think I've explained quite adequately in my posts. Also, you're quite frankly being ridiculous: I'm not saying that I am above the 80% because they're conformist. It's just your egotistic faux-victim complex playing up.
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Since when is it a negative label? Stereotypes aren't necessarily horrible and bad things, they can be quite useful. I would probably approach a pretty blonde girl with lots of makeup and a shirt that says "Hollister" differently than I would approach a dude with a big beard and a Slint shirt. It doesn't mean one is better than the other, just that they probably like different things.
Of course you don't fit exactly into the stereotype - most people don't fit perfectly into one. Just because you aren't consciously subscribing to a certain subculture doesn't mean you aren't part of it.
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Frankly, I don't give a shit if I'm being labelled a hipster or an indie kid. Labels suck, but they only suck if you take offense easily. I don't think hipster or indie are inherently bad labels, just as I don't think goth is an inherently bad label. I used to call one of my ex's goth because I knew it bothered her. It wasn't so much that she wasn't goth, so much as she thought of 'goth' in a negative context and thus took offense.
Do I predominantly listen to the very broad genre we-all-know-but-can't-define of indie?? Yes, I do. But a good chunk of those bands sound nothing alike. And furthermore, I don't just listen to indie. I also like classic rock, and IDM, and jazz, and some jam bands, and some country, etc.
I don't see what good this argument or discussion does any of us. Nobody is going to budge and arguing about this kind of crap on the internet is even more pointless.
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Labelling made parts of my high school experience hell and certainly created an artificial dichotomy between me and people I would have spent time hanging out with. For quite obvious reasons I hate labels as they have left me with surprisingly few long-term friends and a small social circle, meaning I spend an awful lot of nights at home not doing anything with anybody.
Labels aren't positive.
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Shup up fatster.
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When did I say it had anything to do with the ridiculous notion of being cool? It's an aesthetic viewpoint. I'm also not stereotyping, I'm trying to examine if there's a reason some people like one kind of music and some people like another. That is an undertaking that is simply not possible unless you create broad categories under which you can classify people. Literally all I mean by 'hipster' is that someone holds a certain aesthetic viewpoint (the reality centered, post-modern one) and listens to mainly indie music. This, I firmly believe, describes, well, 80% or so of the people on this forum. And why should it not? Questionable Content, despite its science-fiction/fantasy frills, is a comic about realistic relationships, human drama, situational comedy and indie rock music, which would make it only natural that a large proportion of its fanbase would hold these tastes and value judgements. You, Tommy, obviously do, as evinced by pretty much everything you've written on these forums. So do most people here. The idea that I am calling anyone conformist, or labelling anyone with a derogatory stereotype, or saying that the 20% of other random aesthetic types are superior to the 80%, or compromising anyones individuality by describing them in a broad category in an attempt to construct an argument, especially when I've even noted that the category is fluid and only for the purposes of the argument, is frankly absolutely fucking ludicrous, and says far more about peoples own insecurities than anything else. Labels can never describe a person, but we're not trying to describe people, we're trying to account for one small aspect, that is differing musical taste. Please don't think that at any point I have tried to say that hipsters are 'sheep' (in fact, since I've put myself in a similiar grouping quite happily, that would mean that I'd have said that I myself was merely a sheep of a different breed), or that I'm trying to denigrate anyone, despite the attempts of Tommydski's infamously ridiculous arguing tactics (I call it the three M's: Misrepresentation, misdirection, Moral outrage).
Basically, stop being silly, and maybe we could talk about what we were actually discussing here, which I think we were having a very nice little thread here.
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I believe that labels aren't intrinsically negative or positive- I also think this is where I disagree with a lot of people.
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Labels are necessary for categorization. Trouble comes when they divide subcultures, and ignorant, sweeping generalizations are made.
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That said wasn't Wu Tang all part of some religion that believed ever black person was a demi-god...
Well, man, Wu-Tang Gods ain't nothin' to fuck with.
Flaming Ostrich, I found that post kind of disappointing, just because of this line:
I just think that there is a rift on this forum between those who predominately listen to indie and those who predominately listen to metal.
If you will read this thread again and look through other, similar threads you will discover that folk like Kai, Jeph, and myself are trying to bridge that rift as well as they can. It is when people are closed-minded about either genre that the rift develops. Rest assured though that the effort to reduce any discord between these two is quite sincere.
Was it disappointing because what I said was true and it depressed you, or because you think I am wrong. But you can't think I am wrong, because you acknowledged that there is in fact a rift that you and others are trying to bridge.
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Fine. There is a rift between you and Khar.
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Was it disappointing because what I said was true and it depressed you, or because you think I am wrong. But you can't think I am wrong, because you acknowledged that there is in fact a rift that you and others are trying to bridge.
That rift is imagined. What was disappointing about your post was that it is among the posts that come along every so often that try to force the rift into existence. Talking about this forum like there is some kind of bizarre, insurmountable gap between people who like metal and people who like indie - whatever the fuck that means, because nobody here can define indie - will only serve to propagate persecution complexes on each side and create the separation that way. Having been here two years I can tell you that's the only way it happens. I hate to pull the senority card but I've done it on you twice, which is starting to set off internal alarms. In another thread I paraphrased a quote which says that wisdom involves learning from the experiences of others and in this instance I'm going to have to ask you to trust my experience.
As you can see Bryan and I are friends, Khar and I have a level of mutual respect and other metal fans on this site have a good forum relationship with me. There is no rift. Stop trying to make one.
EDIT: You've been here longer than me which makes your perception of this rift really disappointing.
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I haven't really been here that long. I joined up early, but only posted around 50 times or so.
You don't want it to be a rift, eh? There are still those on this board who predominately listen to metal and those who predominately listen to indie. They tend to disagree with one another about what's good music. I'm not trying to propagate a rift, and I resent that you think I am. However, I find it infuriating when Khar will visciously criticize a band like Fugazi or Medications as dull and boring and then promote something as bland as Immortal. If that's propagating a rift, sorry.
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They tend to disagree with one another about what's good music.
But I bet they ALL disagree with me when I say Motley Crue are pretty good music.
I feel there is a rift between 80s cock-rockers and the hipster-metalhead alliance here. This place fucking sucks! I'm going home!
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You don't want it to be a rift, eh? There are still those on this board who predominately listen to metal and those who predominately listen to indie. They tend to disagree with one another about what's good music. I'm not trying to propagate a rift, and I resent that you think I am. However, I find it infuriating when Khar will visciously criticize a band like Fugazi or Medications as dull and boring and then promote something as bland as Immortal. If that's propagating a rift, sorry.
Immortal have axes and once wrote a song called 'Cursed Realms of the Winterdemons'. That's two more awesome things than either of those bands have ever done.
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Whether you are metal or indie, there is one thing we can all agree on
Trip hop kicks both of those genres asses!
WOOT PORTISHEAD!! WOOT MASSIVE ATTACK!! :mrgreen: :evil: :mrgreen: :evil:
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You don't want it to be a rift, eh? There are still those on this board who predominately listen to metal and those who predominately listen to indie. They tend to disagree with one another about what's good music. I'm not trying to propagate a rift, and I resent that you think I am. However, I find it infuriating when Khar will visciously criticize a band like Fugazi or Medications as dull and boring and then promote something as bland as Immortal. If that's propagating a rift, sorry.
Immortal have axes and once wrote a song called 'Cursed Realms of the Winterdemons'. That's two more awesome things than either of those bands have ever done.
Incorrect.
@Tommy- You have to admit, you two do argue a lot.
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Can you provide me of a picture of Ian Mackaye holding a giant axe that looks like the bat signal all dressed up like a cross between a troll, an S&M leatherboy and a Satanic hockey player?
No.
Can you point me to a Fugazi video that involves standing on top of a mountain in a flapping trenchcoat noodling on an unplugged guitar whilst CGI lighting bolts blast down in the background?
Of course not, Fugazi didn't make videos because that is somehow anti-commercial.
I've always preferred the approach of, say Coil. Coil made hella awesome videos, but they were basically full of semi-naked men with laurel wreath headgear oiling each other and corpses draped in black veils with diamonds instead of eyes being erotically massaged by faceless things with golden claws instead of fingertips, and Jhonny Balance completely wrecked on acid doing an embarrasing dance in to the river Ganges, and people dying from AIDS and so forth. Basically what I'm saying is half of Fugazi's anti-commercial platform is sheer laziness. Aren't they also the band that banned people from moshing at their gigs, explaining why the live vids I found on youtube closely resembled a couple of hundred architecture students nodding along to some middle-aged librarians embarrasingly failing to rock out? I guess they probably are.
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Don't particularly care for either of these bands, but not making videos is way lamer than having axes and singing about winterdemons.
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I do have a Coil album actually. I enjoy it ironically, obviously.
I'm trying to figure out if Tommy is being satrical or completely serious.
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I am currently attempting to locate this gentlemans phone number.
(http://www.eveprime.com/images/portfolio/hipster.2.jpg)
I must admit, in my self-imposed reclusive little world, I do not come in much contact with (m)any of these hipsters, but I can say this now... from that picture, I will now be able to recognize them on sight as hobos with rosy-colored glasses. Thank you for helping me update my mental records. I always pictured them looking like beatniks with cardigans.
Edit: Spelling.
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That is the scandalous thing about hipsters. All those clothes are reversible. Underneath, they are black. The collar of the shirt does up in to a polo neck. The hat artfully folds in to a beret.
They are chameleons.
I only burned Fugazi because the dude cold insulted Immortal. I don't see the point in them, however. For reasons that I have been seriously trying to explore in this thread.
Enjoying Coil ironically would be a minor thing, as it will never be clear just how much of their music was a joke or just something that they made accidentally by pushing buttons when they were high. I have this mental image now. Jhonny Balance waking up, he has the mother of all headaches. He grabs a glass of water and sits on his sofa. He checks his watch. He notices it is 4PM next wednesday. He turns on his TV but he presses the wrong button and activates his VCR. The video to Windowpane is in it. He watches, his eyes slowly getting wider, then he picks up the phone and dials Marc Almond.
"Marc, did I go to India recently? I don't remember anything after we dropped those tabs together in that Soho nightclub."
"Jhon, Jhon, I have absolutely no idea, but there's twenty thousand pounds missing from my bank account and somebody has filled my freezer with honey."
"What, a solid block of honey ice?"
"Yes."
"I bet you could make some fantastic cocktails from that. I'll be over in an hour."
And so on. It might be a fortnight before they realised they'd left Thighpaulsandra in a hotel room in Bombay, in a bath full of his own urine.
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The fact that Fugazi banned moshing at their concerts makes me like them even more. I fucking hate moshing. If you want to beat the shit out of each other, start a fight club.
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The fact that Fugazi banned moshing at their concerts makes me like them even more. I fucking hate moshing. If you want to beat the shit out of each other, start a fight club.
It's fairly ironic that they banned moshing, being a punk band. Hell, it's in direct conflict with punk as a whole.
But then again I love moshing.
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It's not in direct conflict with punk as a whole. Very little moshing occured prior to British punk, if I'm not mistaken. It's part of hardcore but so is dancing like you're in a bad kung-fu movie.
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It's fairly ironic that they banned moshing, being a punk band. Hell, it's in direct conflict with punk as a whole.
But then again I love moshing.
wait, what?
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wait, what?
In retrospect I'm an idiot, but banning moshing seems like the last thing a punk band would do, to be honest.
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It's cool man, I used to have the same attitude myself.
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but so is dancing like you're in a bad kung-fu movie.
It would be pretty awesome if people gave each other enough room at shows to do this without endangering anyone. Sometimes if I see Orochi and there is enough room I totally do this.
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On an almost completely unrelated note, Tommy's last post made me laugh pretty hard.
Fatster is just a really, really funny word for some reason.
Cooooompletely off-topic though.
As a side note, you know a metal band has it going on when they're doing covers of 60s rock such as Surfin' USA. >_>
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HAHAHAHA!
That's the coolest picture I've seen all week. And it's Tuesday.
They didn't 'ban' anything. Show me where that is written. Also, there was no such thing as 'moshing' when Fugazi started in 1987. MTV hadn't invented it yet.
Fugazi were famous for stopping shows when they saw violence amongst the audience. Some people expected the band to be a continuation of the resolutely hardcore Minor Threat and would basically turn up to kick the crap out of people and act like drunken assholes. If I'm watching a band and some motherfucker starts beating my ass I'm going to want him to stop because I came to see some live music. That's a reasonable thing to expect from your audience. Fugazi defined punk from 1987-2005. After hardcore had been around for nearly a decade the common, by rote violence at punk shows was conformist and uniform. By asking their audience to be respectful of each other they were undercutting people's expectations of punk rock. They were saying 'no' to the ritualistic slam dancing and asking people to express themselves as individuals. I saw Fugazi on three occasions and they were the best gigs I have ever been to. That's in part due to the fact I didn't have to deal with fatster assholes knocking into me every few seconds.
Too fucking true, Tommy boy. I used to mosh when I was younger and didn't play music myself. I think it's retarded as hell now. Though I had to beat back some crazy drunk motherfuckers who were trying to fondle my pseudo girlfriend at the last concert I went to. That's not really moshing, though. At least I hope not.
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Sir, Do not underestimate the Fatster menace.
Actually now that I think about it, me laughing at your post was more likely a subconcious reaction to the realisation that I used a similar argument today to defend myself.
God I love lack of sleep it's the most amusing thing ever.
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Penis!
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The fact that your thoughts turn to your penis when you think of Fatsters is rather disturbing.
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Can they find it?
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To be honest, I see why you'd ban moshing in the states. I hardly mosh in the UK any more because of the retarded American hardcore attitude that's been imported along with all the shit new deathcore music. I can't rely anymore that people are going to pick me up if I go down, or surf me out if it gets too much for me, I can't rely people aren't deliberately going to try and break my nose, I can't rely that no one is going to be wearing aggressive jewellery. I don't want to see the stage where I also can't rely on people not having straight razors sewn blade-side out in to their jackets or a length of chain in one hand. Bring back the headbang, bring back the mosh, as some bands have thankfully started saying. It's got totally ridiculous when I can go to see a band like Kingsize Blues supporting Crowbar at the Wedgewood Rooms and I can be the only person headbanging. Moshing, however, isn't violence. Not how it was being done in the UK when I started, not how its still being done in Europe. It can be brutal, but it should never be dangerous. Some of the best times of my life have been in Mosh Pits, or crowd surfing. Best thing ever at a concert though is when you get a line of like, 8 total strangers or whatever, and you all just link arms over each others shoulders and headbang in unison.
In fact, I just wrote a huge rant about this on my blog.
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The fact that your thoughts turn to your penis when you think of Fatsters is rather disturbing.
Nimrod420 just voiced my exact sentiments.
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As a side note, you know a metal band has it going on when they're doing covers of 60s rock such as Surfin' USA. >_>
Was that a Blind Guardian reference, or is there another band that re-did that I should know about?
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Was that a Blind Guardian reference, or is there another band that re-did that I should know about?
Blind Guardian win the metal game my friend. Thrash/speed/power metal...
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Blind Guardian aren't even the best ridiculous power metal band with Tolkien themed lyrics.
(Wuthering Heights)
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Angel Dust is my pick of the power metal bands. "Bleed" and "Enlighten the Darkness" are both really excellent albums, not a huge fan of "Of Human Bondage" though. Their earlier stuff I would classify as thrash...
I agree with what people are saying about moshing its fucking retarded. Most shows I goto are fine, I have nothing wrong with headbanging, in fact theres nothing more awesome then headbanging along to an excellent band, but when fuckers in the audience try to start fights and grope girls and things then it just ruins it for everyone. I don't want to generalise but it's usually the 15 year old kids in their Slipknot t-shirts that are starting all the shit. Most 18+ gigs I goto are fine it's the all ages gigs where all the shit usually starts. I was at a fucking Nightwish gig and people were trying to mosh, it's ridiculous...
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Blind Guardian aren't even the best ridiculous power metal band with Tolkien themed lyrics.
(Wuthering Heights)
Blind Guardian have Tolkien themed lyrics scattered about, but their music deals with so much more and they tend to fall under an undeserved umbrella of Tolkien-whoring, that while they're happy to belong to doesn't mean they actually occupy such a space.
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I don't care for Blind Guardian, for the most part. I just don't ;P
Actually I really don't care for most power metal at all. Symphony X is probably my favorite, if you count them as power metal.
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Best thing ever at a concert though is when you get a line of like, 8 total strangers or whatever, and you all just link arms over each others shoulders and headbang in unison.
That's how I spent part of my New Year's Eve, and it was fucking awesome. I hadn't head-banged (head-bung?... hehe) like that in yeeeears.
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I don't care for Blind Guardian, for the most part. I just don't ;P
Actually I really don't care for most power metal at all. Symphony X is probably my favorite, if you count them as power metal.
I've heard some places call them Prog Metal, though. Symphony X, that is. Odd.
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Yeah, most people would just call them prog metal. I mean, I would. But the line between prog metal and power metal can be a pretty thin one.
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To be honest, I see why you'd ban moshing in the states. I hardly mosh in the UK any more because of the retarded American hardcore attitude that's been imported along with all the shit new deathcore music. I can't rely anymore that people are going to pick me up if I go down, or surf me out if it gets too much for me, I can't rely people aren't deliberately going to try and break my nose, I can't rely that no one is going to be wearing aggressive jewellery. I don't want to see the stage where I also can't rely on people not having straight razors sewn blade-side out in to their jackets or a length of chain in one hand. Bring back the headbang, bring back the mosh, as some bands have thankfully started saying. It's got totally ridiculous when I can go to see a band like Kingsize Blues supporting Crowbar at the Wedgewood Rooms and I can be the only person headbanging. Moshing, however, isn't violence. Not how it was being done in the UK when I started, not how its still being done in Europe. It can be brutal, but it should never be dangerous. Some of the best times of my life have been in Mosh Pits, or crowd surfing. Best thing ever at a concert though is when you get a line of like, 8 total strangers or whatever, and you all just link arms over each others shoulders and headbang in unison.
In fact, I just wrote a huge rant about this on my blog.
I used to go to a lot of metal shows about two years ago. I dont know what it's like today, but whenever there was a mosh (and there allways was a mosh) people respected a few "unwritten rules":
- No punching.
- No kicking.
- If someone falls down, pick him up.
- If you see a girl in the mosh, take it easy.
- No pushing people into the mosh.
I allways liked that.
Two years ago, there was a concert by a few local metal bands down town. After one show I was talking to a guy I knew when a friend of mine approachs the guy I talking to and says "Dude, I'm sorry I kicked you really hard in that mosh, are you ok?". I dont think that I'll see those kind of thigs next metal concert I'll attend.
Also, in Orphaned Land shows (I almost never miss those) that mosh is actually 300 metalheads jumping together in one big group hug. Hilariously awsome.
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- No punching.
- No kicking.- If someone falls down, pick him up.
- If you see a girl in the mosh, take it easy.
- No pushing people into the mosh.
There... that's the only rule I see being respected around here. Even then, some of the drunkards are too inebriated to care. Headbanging and throwing up the motherfucking horns are the things I like to see. For most people (with a few genuine exceptions), these fucking 'circle pits' are just an excuse to be violent. Nothing more nothing less.
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Yeah, most people would just call them prog metal. I mean, I would. But the line between prog metal and power metal can be a pretty thin one.
I'd say they're definjitely some sort of prog now, they've moved WAY too far away from power metal. I can't emphesize how much they rock. All eras of them.
Also, they haven't had any Tolkein themed lyrics in.... Two albums? Yeah.
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This is going to be one of those old-timer "back in my day" type stories, but oh well...several years ago, I remember taking my sister to see Zao at Cornerstone. It was her first metal show ever, and she wanted to go "moshing." All was well until some douchenozzle almost hit her in the face. As any good older brother would do, I set out to put a beatin' on the chump, but before I could, he was swallowed up by a handful of other dudes who *ahem* politely informed him that his actions were unacceptable, and respectfully requested that he leave the tent. I remember when those unwritten rules were respected by people at shows. Flash forward to the last Converge show I went to, where it seemed like just a bunch of jocks who wanted to hurt as many people as they could. I never much cared for 'getting in the pit' myself, just because I'd rather watch the band that I paid money to see, but I can remember when their used to be some roguish sense of honor and nobility present...no more, no more...
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I saw a girl get her jaw broken at a Zao show in 2003. Karate moshing fucktard wearing combat boots.
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I used to go to a lot of metal shows about two years ago. I dont know what it's like today, but whenever there was a mosh (and there allways was a mosh) people respected a few "unwritten rules":
- Push girls into a mosh pit, keep pushing them until they fall down, then kick and punch them
Fixed it for you.
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You people have retarded metal shows. I've never even seen a real moshpit at a metal show here. At the very most, everyone is headbanging and there is a bit of pressure pushing forwards for the bigger bands. Even the slightest attempt to do anything violent will result in whoever it is thrown over to the side by everyone else.
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Yeah, Australia, insofar as I can tell, tends to keep the hardcore dancing at hardcore shows. The best moshpits I've been in involve two rows of folks at the front headbanging and then a lot of jumping and a bit of pushing and just generally a shit load of movement behind that. I went to a Killswitch Engage show last year and it had both, which was awesome I think. Also, everybody in the circle (which I was in for Unearth, who did support) was very respectful and actually made sure they weren't hitting people. This was cos it was composed of mostly of older hardcore guys who'd been in the scene for years, as opposed to 15 year olds who don't have a fucking clue.
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Flash forward to the last Converge show I went to, where it seemed like just a bunch of jocks who wanted to hurt as many people as they could.
If I remember right this exact thing started happening at Nirvana shows after the release of Nevermind and Kurt was not impressed.
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yeah, now the whole thing's gone down over here. unless you're at a death metal show only, you're gonna find the flippy high school kids doing moves like the penny-picker, the wheelbarrow, look-my-arm-is-a-morning-star, ape-in-man-clothes-with-a-trucker-hat, etc. I was lucky enough to go to a show in which Anthrax finished, so all the flailers who were there for Manntis and Sworn Enemy said "this shit is old and gay" and left, so everyone started doing it the old-fashioned way. even the forty-year olds passing out free beer to the kiddies who stayed for the entire thing were stopping to show the horns.
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To be honest, it's one of the many reasons that, at the end of the day, it's probably actually a good thing that metal isn't that popular, and it'll probably be better when it's less popular again. Moshpits in the eighties could be fucking evil. It's the same thing. That wider demographic appeal obviously nets more idiots.
@Mis: Those are pretty much the rules of the mosh as they were handed down to me by my metal forefathers. I wouldn't be surprised if they were still upheld in Isreal, from what I can tell, based on Isreali bands and what bands seem to have big fanbases down there, the scene in Isreal is massively European. Twattish hardcore shit comes from the states. Its a basic dichotomy in the way being a fan of a band and music and whatnot is viewed. In the European metal scene, traditionally, being a fan of a band is something that unites people. Thus, when there's moshing, it doesn't go beyond that level. I've been in some hefty pits at places like Wacken, and it has been pretty brutal, but never dangerous. I know that, basically, the crowd is all together in this, that I can count on being picked up or hauled out if shit happens. From what I've always seen of the hardcore scene and its offshoots, and this is only a casual observation, is there seems to be much more of an element of competition, as in 'who is the biggest fan', or 'who is the most scene' or whatever which seems to fuel disunity in the crowd, along with all that thing with crews and whatnot of course, which thankfully (most) of Europe doesn't have. In European metal the only place I've really seen that is on the internet: when metalheads actually meet in real life, it's much more about similiarities than differences.
Also, oh man, throwing the horns. I think my little quirk if I was the dictator of the world would be having people who throw weak horns or stick their thumbs out basically just shot in the face.
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/tyne/content/images/2005/10/14/dio_150x266_150x226.jpg)
FINGERS RIGID THUMB ACROSS BOTTOM OF MIDDLE FINGERS. It ain't hard. Half the time I can't tell if people are throwing the horns or suffering from crippling nerve injuries in their hands.
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Dear Khar,
I have trouble throwing the horns sometimes. Occasionally my thumb slips up my middle finger. I sometimes get spasms of pain when trying to keep the index and pinkie fingers out at a sufficient angle. My middle two fingers sometimes are not able to be held together properly.
Do you have a list of exercise for training the hand to be thrown into the horns correctly? How do you correct sloppy technique when the only appropriate times to throw the horns are when I am drunk out of my skull? What is your training reigime for keeping your ability to throw the horns in good shape?
And what genres of music are NOT appropriate to throw the horns for? Is bluesy rock and roll with bitchin guitar solos and bass shred appropriate? Thank you for your help in tihs delicate matter.
Love, Brett.
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I actually frequently hold my thumbs diagonally across the middle fingers. That's just how my fingers naturally hold the position.
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I'm not Khar, obviously, but I am happy to answer your questions regarding the implementation of The Horns.
Dear Khar,
I have trouble throwing the horns sometimes. Occasionally my thumb slips up my middle finger. I sometimes get spasms of pain when trying to keep the index and pinkie fingers out at a sufficient angle. My middle two fingers sometimes are not able to be held together properly.
Do you have a list of exercise for training the hand to be thrown into the horns correctly? How do you correct sloppy technique when the only appropriate times to throw the horns are when I am drunk out of my skull? What is your training reigime for keeping your ability to throw the horns in good shape?
Trying to use your index and pinky fingers more often is a great help, as is using your thumb to grip the other fingers and hold them in place. If nothing else works, try shrowing Spiderman's hand gesture, which is basically the horns upside down, thrown forward. Then just change the position!
And what genres of music are NOT appropriate to throw the horns for? Is bluesy rock and roll with bitchin guitar solos and bass shred appropriate? Thank you for your help in tihs delicate matter.
Love, Brett.
Throw The Horns for anything and everything.
*takes a bow*
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Actually, Spidey webs with his thumb out, in the hippy/pagan sign for love.
I'm sorry, but I can't believe you are an authority on throwing the horns if you do not know this.
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I'm certainly not an authority on Spiderman, you mean.
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hippy/pagan sign for love.
Hippy/pagan nowt, it's international sign language. It's about as new age as Alpha Bravo Charlie Delta Echo Foxtrot.
When did I impugn there might be wrong genres? Obviously anything that rocks. I've thrown the horns to industrial a good few times before. When you're using the horn at a concert though, what it literally is is respect for the band. You are saying to the band that they rock, and the band, when they do it back, are saying that YOU rock. You should throw the horns when the band is especially rocking, so solos, awesome lyrics and vocal thingies, kick-ass set-pieces and whatnot. You should always throw the horns back when someone in the band throws the horns, especially if they do it in your direction (or even AT you: that is the ultimate thing). But it is pretty much acceptable to throw the horns any time something is rocking. Genre ain't got nothing to do with it, as long as there's something rocking happening. I've throw the horns at industrial on more than one occasion.
Also, when you bounce your hand in time to the music keeping the arm rigid and just using the wrist: that is piss-weak nu-metal shit. Don't do that. If you are going to do anything like that then the whole arm at least should be moving, if not your whole body, and you should definitely be headbanging.
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When did I impugn there might be wrong genres?
I was actually referring to this (http://"http://www.theonion.com/content/node/42365") hilarious The Onion article about misuse of the metal sign :P
I don't take the whole thing as seriously as I am pretending to, but I must admit, I get a real tingly feeling when a really awesome guitarist throws the horns on the way on the way to start tapping over the top of the fretboard or something.
Plus I just seize on any opportunity I can get to type out the word "bass shred"
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Pat Robertson obviously throws the horns better than anyone. Look at my avatar!
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hippy/pagan sign for love.
Hippy/pagan nowt, it's international sign language. It's about as new age as Alpha Bravo Charlie Delta Echo Foxtrot.
When did I impugn there might be wrong genres? Obviously anything that rocks. I've thrown the horns to industrial a good few times before. When you're using the horn at a concert though, what it literally is is respect for the band. You are saying to the band that they rock, and the band, when they do it back, are saying that YOU rock. You should throw the horns when the band is especially rocking, so solos, awesome lyrics and vocal thingies, kick-ass set-pieces and whatnot. You should always throw the horns back when someone in the band throws the horns, especially if they do it in your direction (or even AT you: that is the ultimate thing). But it is pretty much acceptable to throw the horns any time something is rocking. Genre ain't got nothing to do with it, as long as there's something rocking happening. I've throw the horns at industrial on more than one occasion.
Also, when you bounce your hand in time to the music keeping the arm rigid and just using the wrist: that is piss-weak nu-metal shit. Don't do that. If you are going to do anything like that then the whole arm at least should be moving, if not your whole body, and you should definitely be headbanging.
Indeed. I don't want to see any of that wrist-driven rocking going on. That is piss-weak, though I would not necessarily associate it specifically with nu-metal. It's just piss weak.
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This hand symbol is also said to be the opposite of Satanism, but rather a trick that God pulled on Satan, that whenever a human makes the hand gesture, a telephone will ring in Satan's bedroom, but there will be no one on the other line. In fact, God makes the corna symbol every morning at 2:30 just to piss Satan off.
Isn't that a Wigu strip?
@Nimrod: It is so nu-metal. It is basically saying that you are rollin' rollin' rollin'.
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Admittedly, I would associate it with Fred Durst, but that's just because he's a limp wristed cum catcher. Nothing to do with the song. *shuddering*
Why would you make me think of it? WHY?!
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(http://www.musicobsession.com/Pictures/l/i/limpbizkit316995.jpg)
ROLLIN' ROLLIN' ROLLIN'
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It's kind of funny, because when we were having the discussion about the worst band in the world a while back I decided to look up the Rollin' video on YouTube to see if it was as terrible as I remembered.
It was worse.
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I think my little quirk if I was the dictator of the world would be having people who throw weak horns or stick their thumbs out basically just shot in the face.
The corna is not to be confused as the sign for "I love you" in American Sign Language, which is made by also extending the thumb
So you propose shooting the deaf, then?
Somewhere on that Wikipedia article is a link to the Los Angeles City Beat website, apparently. I just wound up there. They have an interesting article about metal's use of outlaw mystique (http://www.lacitybeat.com/article.php?id=1225&IssueNum=66). It's a fascinating read.
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I hope you use the words 'fascinating read' sarcastically, because that article is heavily biased and ridiculously under-researched. It also doesn't actually say anything. Another one of the many filler articles about heavy metal written by people off of 30 minutes of research on the internet and some hear-say. Seriously incoherent garbage. Then again, a lot of the stuff written about heavy metal is.
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Some of us find failure fascinating.
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http://www.defenderofrock.com/news/dio.html
'nuff said.
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Did they just call Kiss heavy metal?
Guys, I think they called Kiss heavy metal.
Seriously. What?
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XP True, that's even worse than calling AC/DC heavy metal.
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It's kind of funny, because when we were having the discussion about the worst band in the world a while back I decided to look up the Rollin' video on YouTube to see if it was as terrible as I remembered.
It was worse.
Holy Christ, you're right. Watching that actually makes Vanilla Ice look good. My lord.
I remember a couple-few years ago, Fred Durst had a Xanga, and he kept using it to convince people he wasn't the monumental idiot he so obviously is. He'd put a Sonic Youth album as his "now playing" and talk about Nietzsche. No joke. And it really was him - when people questioned whether it was really Fred, the official Limp Bizkit site confirmed that it was.
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Guys, if you would just stop talking about Fred Durst he would disappear. Acknowledging his existence gives him strength. If everyone agreed to forget about Limp Bizkit and Fred Durst, we could all....OH GOD I JUST STARTED TO SEE THE VIDEO FOR 'NOOKIE' IN MY HEAD MAKE IT STOOOOPPPPPP
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I am with Khar about that LA Beat article. The guy dipped into the top 10 percent of metal culture and spewed that slop right back out.
He makes a good observation about all the genres and subdivisions, in that yes, there are a lot of them, but I fail to see where that's a negative thing, as he makes it out to be. Fuck that guy, right in his eye socket.