THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)
Fun Stuff => BAND => Topic started by: alongwaltz on 23 Apr 2007, 16:33
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New EP out tomorrow. I pre-ordered mine. It better be in my mailbox by the time I'm home from work.
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I thought it was already out. I saw the vinyl in my local record store over the weekend. Either way I'm looking forward to it. Ys was really excellent (one of the few great albums of '06) and The Milk-Eyed Mender was really great as well. Newsom's unique voice and super literate lyrics are very appealing. Oh! and before I heard her, I never knew the harp could be so damn cool.
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"Joanna Newsom and the Ys Street Band"
Wins instant points for a good title.
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Agreed. I can't wait to see what her next album is like.
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I just remembered I heard the new song that's on this EP when Ms Newsom played here a few months back. It was probably my favourite song of the night, so that's a good sign.
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I have heard this already. I couldn't help myself and downloaded the leak.
'Clam, Crab, Cockle, Cowrie' is my favorite song of hers but this new version isn't much different, other than male backing vocals.
'Colleen' is really different and really good.
'Cosmia' is pretty different but really good too.
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I just got Ys last week, and it's easily one of the best albums I've herd in a while, I'll probably pick the E.P. up sometime
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Guys, help me understand why 'Ys' is so great.
I tried to listen to it quite a few times now, but I just can not get behind that. I think I must be doing it wrong or something.
I mean, everybody is saying it's great. Everybody. I don't think I've ever heard anything bad about the album.
So why do I feel completely indifferent to it?
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Because it's just not your thing...??
There's a dude I work with, and we talk about music all the time. We're both vaguely into indie rock, but we also pay attention to electronica and post-rock. Anyway, we have wildly varying opinions on music despite liking the same genre(s). He can't stand Joanna Newsom, so you're not alone.
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If you're really looking to get into it...I found that it took really listening to the lyrics for the album to click with me. You have to really 'go along for the ride' on each of the songs, and stay with it. You may not completely decipher the words, but they evoke strong emotions, nonetheless.
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Newsom leads with her words, for sure.
I think I posted a thread about me feeling the same about The Field, and it took that thread for me to realize that none of the reviews I'd read had actually told me what was so A+ about it. Jeph had to call it a "breath of fresh air" for dance music.
In the same way, Newsom is kind of a breath of fresh air for indie-pop, in that she completely and utterly tosses out convention in favour of laybrinthe structures and gently arcane orchestration. She chooses to write actual poetry rather than merely settling for lyrics. She gives ambitious ideas room to breathe, something that seems rare outside of basically metal. Moreover, her pieces flow not with hooks but with elegance and florid melody. What she eschews and how she replaces those elements are what makes Ys such an interesting and acclaimed record.
If you're indifferent to it, that's fine. Maybe you don't see it the same way. Maybe you've already been exposed to music which you feel has done something similar and as a result Newsom's record seems old hat.
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OK, granting that "Colleen" is pretty much the most fabulous song of the year, what the heck is it about??? The lyrics are so strange.
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Guys, help me understand why 'Ys' is so great.
I tried to listen to it quite a few times now, but I just can not get behind that. I think I must be doing it wrong or something.
I mean, everybody is saying it's great. Everybody. I don't think I've ever heard anything bad about the album.
This really surprises me, because among my friends (at least the ones who are really into music) she's absolutely villified, and I've read quite a lot of vitriol online about her as well. One of my best friends loves her, but he basically doesn't mention her music at all anymore cos he's so sick of being bummed out by all the hating.
I find her voice like nails down a blackboard, so it's very hard for me to be indifferent about her music, but I think the praise thrown her way is fair enough... basically cos of what Johnny C wrote - it's at least ambitious, which most acclaimed stuff isn't.
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I don't see why you feel you should like her. She is very different to anyone at there, so not everyone will go wild about her. I like her because she's just so refreshingly unique. Even those who she considers to be within her "freak folk genre", like Devendra Banhart and Vetiver, sound nothing like her. She is such a master of the harp that she has managed to take it well beyond the confines of Classical, and into her own delightful and complete world. I'm just glad she has got her much deserved recognition.
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"The Sprout and the Bean" got me through some rough times. The more I listened to it the more I liked it, but I have yet to pick up her other stuff, so its unfortunately the only song of hers I have any familiarity with.
I'm of a mind to go pick up Ys right now! And this new "EP" if its in stores?
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Her voice is one of the worst sounds I have ever heard put to tape. I can't appreciate any of her other qualities because augh that voice aaaaaaugh.
But it's cool if other people like her!
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I'm not sure if Jeph is referring to her voice in Milky Eyed Mender, or in Ys, or in the recent EP. She sings very differently in each instance, and different still in concert. If you listen to Colleen, aside from the punctuating squeaks, she sounds a considerable amount like Bjork in some of the Verspertine tracks.
But yeah, you know, each to their own. People who don't recognize Ys (like Rolling Stone for instance) will have plenty of time over the next decade to change their opinion as it becomes enshrined as one of the albums of our generation.
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People who don't recognize Ys (like you for instance, you elderly obsolete fool) will have plenty of time over the next decade to change their opinion as it becomes enshrined as one of the albums of our generation.
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It's unfortunate that some people can't get past Newsom's idiosyncratic vocals. If you ask me, her voice is a tremendous asset, one which she uses to great effect. Then again, I also think Dagmar Krause, Lydia Lunch, and Yoko Ono are brilliant vocalists.
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I think it's fair that people can't get past the shrill cries of a woman whose voice is a surreal blend of "8-year-old kid choral star" and "eldritch hag."
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See, I don't think her voice sounds childlike at all. Also, she is probably the greatest lyricist I have ever heard. Her words are so good.
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I submit that you have never met a child.
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A friend of mine was going to see her tonight, by the show was resecheduled due to throat issues. Aww.
I couldn't go tonight anyway, I have a wedding party to attend.
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I've just been reading her lyrics. Nothing special, some of them read kinda annoying. Must be worse when she sings them. She is by no means a great lyricist. And I really do think that she'll be all but completely forgotten/ignored sometime in the next couple of years.
There's no part of Joanna Newsom that I enjoy, even photographs of her.
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Yeah, lyrics like:
"We sailed away on a winter's day
With fate as malleable as clay,
But ships are fallible, I say,
And the nautical, like all things, fades."
don't rank up there with current songs like:
"This shit is bananas"
"My lovely lady lumps"
"Alright, already, we'll all float on"
"I turn my camera on"
or classics like:
"Hey hey mama, said the way you move, gonna make you sweat, gonna make you groove"
"We all live in a yellow submarine"
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Okay, that argument was weak.
I could just as easily argue that Joanna Newsom is mind blowingly attractive by posting an image of Paris Hilton.
Just because you can find a worse lyricist doesn't mean that hers are great.
And for the record, half of those artist have probably written lyrics that make what Joanna Newsom writes look like highschool poetry.
The fact that she manages to say absolutely nothing of interest in four lines doesn't make her a good lyricist either. It just means that she's incredibly boring to listen to.
It seems to me that she takes an idea and tries to convey it with as many words as possible. She'll write a song and not say anything worthwhile until you've already started to fall asleep. It's like reading a book that has a great plot but takes a full page to describe one action.
Joanna Newsom's songwriting to me feels like a highschooler's essay. There's a 1000 word requirement but you can't think of more than 400. You fill the essay with bullshit and drag out all your sentences to make that 1000 words.
There are some subtle moments of genius in what she writes, yes. But it's not enough to hold my interest. She could be doing so much better if she would only decide to hand in a 400 word brilliant essay instead of a bigger essay that is 60% bullshit.
Maybe I'll like her when her albums have less bullshit to get through.
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I have never considered plot development a big intricacy to songwriting.
I've always considered good song lyrics to be more in the poetry camp than novels or short stories.
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It takes a little more than being poetic to hold my interest.
All my favourite lyricist are pretty straight to the point with fast and hard hitting sentences.
Didn't you read my full post? Or did you only choose to respond to the part you couldn't make an argument against? See, I never said that lyrics should be like novels or short stories. I used the idea of a story that's difficult to read despite a good plot as a metaphor for how difficult I find Newsom's lyrics.
Like I said before, there's too much bullshit in the way of her genius to hold my interest.
Here's how Joanna Newsom's lyrics look to me.
"blah blah blah blah
Blah blah blah
something thoughtful
Blah blah blah"
The 'something thoughtful' I like. What I don't like is how she expands the something thoughtful into four times as many sentences as she needs to and then uses awkward english so that they rhyme.
Here's something you won't be able to argue with.
Joanna Newsom is not a songwriter, but she can play and write music.
Joanna Newsom is not a lyricist.
Joanna Newsom is a poet that can play the harp.
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It's the rhythm of the words that I like. They remind me in some respects of the Shinss songs: the way the words make the melodies tumble out and take odd twists and continue just when you're expecting them to resolve. Good poetry rarely makes a good song lyric: lyrics usually benefit from simplification, whereas poetry works best if it works in the opposite direction - by which I mean not complication, but richness of language and imagery. For this reason, I think, the songs of a "poetic" lyricist such as Newsom are usually closely tied to the person who wrote the song: it takes a singular kind of delivery and musical vision to make such lyrics work. I can't imagine anybody successfully covering one of Newsom's songs, just as I think if she ever started regularly covering other people's songs she'd have to be very careful about the songs she chose. Music such as hers is a very careful balancing act.
In other news, I just bought the E.P. today and I'm listening to it for the first time right now. I am absolutely loving the version of "Cosmia" here.
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Also, comparing Joanna Newsom to Led Zeppelin is inherently flawed because they're trying to accomplish entirely different things with their music.
Like, how Led Zeppelin's music is interesting. That makes them different!
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I can see how you could value "direct and to the point"-ness in lyrics, but that's only one quality to consider when appraising anyone's use of words. I would find your requirement that everything an artist says furthers some point, or argument, very restrictive. You've got to have room to experiment - dare I say play - with the language. And wordplay is absolutely rampant in Newsom's lyrics (more so in Milk-Eyed Mender). She uses rhythm, rhyme, and alliteration masterfully, with quite an expansive vocabulary. This approach to songwriting may mean lengthier passages and songs, but to write off lyrics that take time to say something or perhaps just serve to create an image seems to me hasty and judgmental. This is why I keep going back to Newsom's material - it's not immediately transparent. It takes some work, perhaps some creative interpretation.
To reference an earlier post, it would be quite the high school student that could produce lines like hers, and no, though a few of the artists in that list have produced intelligent, insightful, and creative lyrics, none of them could be said to far outshine Newsom in the poetic arena. To say so is evidence of a one-dimensional evaluation.
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Newsom leads with her words, for sure.
Darryl, I submit that you read this more closely and try to understand what I'm saying with it. Inlander hit the nail squarely on the head: the reason that she uses so many words is so that the rhythm, the pacing and the overall aural sensation of the phrases are just right. Her phrases are intricately interwoven with the melodies of her songs. She is a poet that can play the harp, but as far as your "she's not a songwriter" bit goes I call bullshit. Give The Milk-Eyed Mender another examination and you will find your assessment to be wildly incorrect. On Ys, I'll say that she moves from songwriting into genuine, full-on composition.
As a final aside, every written interview with Newsom I've come across portrays her as a thoughtful, eloquent but overall wordy individual. I would consider it absurd to expect her to alter her personality while writing songs simply to please people who think she uses too many syllables.
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Here's something you won't be able to argue with.
Joanna Newsom is not a songwriter, but she can play and write music.
Joanna Newsom is not a lyricist.
Joanna Newsom is a poet that can play the harp.
No offense, but I think it would be productive for you to spend a little more time thinking about both song lyrics and Newsom's lyrics. First, what you wrote makes no sense. There is no distinction between a lyrics and poetry set to music. Setting your poetry to music is the very definition of lyrics.
2 : writing that formulates a concentrated imaginative awareness of experience in language chosen and arranged to create a specific emotional response through meaning, sound, and rhythm
1 : a lyric composition; specifically : a lyric poem
2 : the words of a song -- often used in plural
But to step away from semantics, Johnny and Inlander are right about the qualities of Newsom's lyrics. She's not repetitive at all. She may use allusions more subtle than your average Iron Maiden song, but almost every line carries its weight, be it concrete or metaphorical.
Compare, for instance Only Skin, in which Joanna talks about herself, her gender identity, and her music, against Monkey & Bear, a tale about (wait for it!) a monkey and a bear.
I have washed a thousand spiders down the drain
Spiders ghosts hang soaked and dangelin'
Silently from all the blooming cherry trees
In tiny nooses, safe from everyone
- nothing but a nusiance; gone now, dead and done
Be a woman, be woman!
From a poetical (and therefore a lyrical) point of view, this verse is very expressive and (especially compared to a lot of modern poetry) very accessible. We can understand the spiders as past decisions and past memories, that haunt in the present, distract, but ultimately are n the past and shouldn't be overly belabored lest they incapacitate. But the images Newsom uses are haunting, quite literally, and hew back to a series of poetical references thousands of years old, back to ancient Greek mythology in fact (the fates at their loom, Ariadne being turned into a spider for hubris, etc.)
Then on the other hand we have:
So
My bride
Here is my hand, where is your paw?
Try and understand my plan, Ursala
My heart is a furnace
Full of love that's just, and earnest
Now; you know that we must unlearn this
Allegiance to a life of service
And no longer answer to that heartless
Hay-monger, nor be his accomplice
(that charlatan, with artless hustling!)
But; Ursala, we've got to eat something
And earn our keep, while still within
The borders of the land that man has girded
(all double-bolted and tight-fisted!)
Until we reach the open country
A-steeped in milk and honey
Seems pretty straightforward to me. The monkey's trying to convince the bear to leave. Now the monkey and bear may serve as metaphors, symbols, or allegory, but the actual happenings in the song are easy enough to follow.
The idea of saying that Newsom, an artist that regularly omits a chorus or refrain from her music, uses unnecessary verbiage seems absurd to me. On the contrary, it's almost every other artist who has perhaps 5-10 original lines of lyrics per song repeated ad nauseum who loads down her songs with fluff. I would love to see a hundred more Newsom's crafting gemlike prismatic lyrical verse -- but I doubt it would ever happen because taking that path is so much harder.
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I'm not even sure what the stance against is anymore. Being overly literate is a bad thing? I really don't understand what they're trying to say.
If you want to say you don't like her, feel free. I can't argue with that. But don't try and claim that she's a poor songwriter or mediocre because that's just ridiculous.
I hate to use the majority rule but the fact that nearly every publication (print or online) gave it a great review and artists like the Concretes, Decemberists, Mates Of State, and My Morning Jacket all listed Ys in their top five of the year should say something.
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I hate to use the majority rule but the fact that nearly every publication (print or online) gave it a great review and artists like the Concretes, Decemberists, Mates Of State, and My Morning Jacket all listed Ys in their top five of the year should say something.
No it shouldn't. That's a logical fallacy.
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Only if you put a lot of faith in the music press, and really, why should you? I think music is the most idiotic thing to be reviewed by anyone.
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I love this thread so much.
For those of you who don't know what Joanna Newsom sounds like or whether or not you should listen to her, go and read what Johnny C, Inlander and Jimbunny had to say as they gave the single most honest, yet non-biased opinions in the thread.
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I would suggest listening to Newsom first and then coming back. You might wind up agreeing with Darryl and that's alright, because it's okay.
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I only listened to Ys
I really don't like it
But the cover art I had was a really low quality image
So it sort of looked like she was cracking the horns in her right hand
motherfuckin' Dio
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Kai, that's poetry. You don't play the harp at all, do you?
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You two are still the best things on the forum. Thanks for reminding me.
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Okay, that argument was weak.
I could just as easily argue that Joanna Newsom is mind blowingly attractive by posting an image of Paris Hilton.
Just because you can find a worse lyricist doesn't mean that hers are great.
And for the record, half of those artist have probably written lyrics that make what Joanna Newsom writes look like highschool poetry.
The fact that she manages to say absolutely nothing of interest in four lines doesn't make her a good lyricist either. It just means that she's incredibly boring to listen to.
It seems to me that she takes an idea and tries to convey it with as many words as possible. She'll write a song and not say anything worthwhile until you've already started to fall asleep. It's like reading a book that has a great plot but takes a full page to describe one action.
Joanna Newsom's songwriting to me feels like a highschooler's essay. There's a 1000 word requirement but you can't think of more than 400. You fill the essay with bullshit and drag out all your sentences to make that 1000 words.
There are some subtle moments of genius in what she writes, yes. But it's not enough to hold my interest. She could be doing so much better if she would only decide to hand in a 400 word brilliant essay instead of a bigger essay that is 60% bullshit.
Maybe I'll like her when her albums have less bullshit to get through.
Let me guess... your favorite band is Dragonforce and you think emo is awesome because it's "way hardcore."
Not being retarded doesn't automatically make something bullshit. If you listen to her, you might find (might!) that the combination of her wicked words, complex rhyming pattern, and West African polyrhythms are actually pretty cool.
Four minute pop structures and 7 minute solo metal shifests ftl.
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Let me guess... your favorite band is Dragonforce and you think emo is awesome because it's "way hardcore."
Weak concluding.
Strong boarding, everyone. I don't really know what Joanna Newsom sounds like but I am checking her out soon on this mix someone made for me.
I feel like I've dirtied this thread now.
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augh that voice aaaaaaugh.
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I really dig Joanna Newsom. 'Ys' was probably my favourite album of last year. I totally get where people come from when they say they can't stand her voice. It took me a few listens of 'The Milk-Eyed Mender' to get into it. But with 'Ys' it was sort of instantaneous, the music totally floats right through you, it's the kind of album i feel like i can wrap around me as if it were a warm blanket.
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I have loved every Joanna Newsom song as soon as I've heard it. I like her voice. It is very childlike, but still interesting. I think she is a great songwriter. Her songs are interesting, and tell good stories.
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Only if you put a lot of faith in the music press, and really, why should you? I think music is the most idiotic thing to be reviewed by anyone.
RateMyPoop.com??
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Some people just don't get into Joanna Newsom. She is pretty eccentric, and she tries for intricate word play instead of any kind of pop hooks. I can see how, especially Ys, isn't accessible to a lot of people.
I hate the people who call it 'pretentious' though. People who attack music for being pretentious are basically just saying 'Anybody who says music is great that I don't like is just trying to sound cool and self important'.
I don't get the appeal of bands like The Field and Stars of the Lid though. Nowhere in a review for those sorts of album have I ever seen a critic actually claim to get pleasure listening to them. Places like Pitchfork see minimalist electronica as some new form of art-rock. The Pitchfork review even made the preposterous claim that anybody who doesn't like them just is too brainwashed by consumerist music they refuse to do any kind of deep listening. (In other words, they're comparing themselves to classical music conniseurs because they like listening to a bunch of amelodic tones drifting in and out for 75 minutes.)
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A lot of people in this thread are attacking the album because the lyrics don't always totally make sense.
My input on that: So?
If you judge a song based on how much sense the lyrics make, 75% of the good music in history is total crap. The rambling stream of consciousness style of the delivery is a large part of what sets the album apart. For me it's not the content of the lyrics that make them work so much as the phonetic sound of them, and the way they build up in flourishes and play against the harp.
All the people who hate the album based on the lyrics must also really hate Destroyer.
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I just downloaded some of her songs. Listening to them now:
It's true, the voice might take some getting used to, but once that you notice how it melds with the melody, you really start to appreciate it. Take "Swansea" (my favorite song of hers right now) for example. There are several instances in which i like to think the lyrics of this song are senseless rambling instead of actual words, and surprisingly, it enhances the experience. This will sound really weird but in some ways, specially when pushing her voice to annoying pitches, she reminds somewhat of scat singing. That part of Lagunitas, Ho Calico and all those names almost made me dismiss the song as unlistenable. Now it is my favorite part, and i have found myself rewinding the song just to hear that biit as much as possible (not good i know).
I think discussing whether she has lyrical prowess or not (which she does) is rather trivial when you notice how her voice is also another instrument in the composition.
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"Eccentric". "Idiosyncratic". "Takes some getting used to". "Refreshingly unique". "Not accessible to a lot of people". That's the thesaurus entry for "Emperor's New Clothes", isn't it? All we're missing is "an acquired taste" to have a royal flush in Pseuds.
If you want to listen to her, knock yourself out - it's a free country, at least for now. But dance around it as you will, we are talking here about a woman whose voice causes physical pain to the trained ear and whose lyrics are bad fifth form poetry (tenth grade to you USanians). She's not good. She's not even mediocre. She's actively bad.
No doubt Ys will be "enshrined as one of the albums of our generation", though - right alongside Backstreet's Back and The Slim Shady EP.
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So . . . basically you're telling me and those like me that our opinion is wrong?
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stuffed he typed before his brain knew what he was doing
I'm sorry sir
I'm rather late in my response, but I guess that's okay as I've had a week of downtime.
Now, that is out of the way, I have listened to Joanna Newsom, she is not for me.
I don't think she's for you either. Apparently Joanna Newsom is for people who take the time to appreciate things, thoughtful and considerate people. What I've seen of you suggest that you have none of these traits.
Even if Dragonforce and Emo is shit (I wouldn't know because I don't listen to either) I would not dismiss everybody who listens to them as being "retarded". It's pretty clear that not everybody who listens to Joanna Newsom is very intelligent or pleasant either.
Pretty much everybody except you (and me) has made an effort to be pleasant in this thread and chosen not to insult people. I'd love to hear your thoughts on music, I'd love to debate and argue with your, unfortunately, as soon as you say that half of the people on this board are "retarded" you're going to lose credibility pretty quick and your opinion won't be worth a damn. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't call everybody that doesn't listen to the same music as you retarded.
Perhaps you meant to direct the insult at me? If you had, I probably wouldn't have bothered to respond to you with more than a sentence, but you seem to have lost the point of your own post and I feel quite sorry for you. I feel like I have to respond like this so you don't make a mistake like that again.
The people of this forum are NICE people. You don't seem like a nice person. I'm worried that if you don't make an effort to be then you won't fit in and a lot of people will dislike you.
I'm sure not all of the music you listen to is like Joanna Newsom. I'm sure that you like 4 minute pop songs with guitar solos too.
I don't find Joanna Newsom all that special. And I explained why. I did so without insulting a single person. I remained (for the most part) polite to all these people that don't share my opinion. Maybe for once, somebody could learn something from me? That would be a very welcome change.
Now, Jedit. You're smarter than that and you know it. Think a little harder next time. If you are indeed trying to say that Inlander and those like him are wrong, then you haven't thought hard enough about what you want to say.
I think what you meant to say was 'I don't like Joanna Newsom because I think a kid could write her lyrics and her voice is irritating, I doubt her album is going to be remembered as one of the best of our generation'.
PS: Ekmesnz, my music collection would put yours to shame, and not because it's particularly big.
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How about everybody stfu, and agree to disagree?
I like her, you don't. Whoopdedo. I think she's great, you think she is terrible. Ok, whatever, it doesn't matter. We have different opinions, and that ok.
It's like the never ending "this is art, this isn't" debate.
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^as much as I have had my previous notion that art or works of art can contain inherent, objective quality questioned to within an inch of its life, I still doggedly maintain the assertion that criticism can be good or bad. I will hold forth (civilly) on this matter as I see fit.
a woman whose voice causes physical pain to the trained ear and whose lyrics are bad fifth form poetry
I'm interested in your use of the phrase "trained ear." Trained in what, may I ask? If you're referring to one trained in vocal performance, at least in the widely accepted choral/operatic/classical mode, I can kind of see your point. I've heard a few trained vocalists cringe at a Broadway tune, because the vocal stylings are based on a very different set of criteria. Similarly, if by "trained" you mean well-versed in the musical conventions of our day, let me offer this analogy: in May of 1913, Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring was premiered in Paris. A riot ensued. Think, too, how Beethoven was received as he began to introduce Romanticism to the Classical crowd.
These are the first examples that come to my head - I'm sure there are comparable examples (though perhaps fewer riots) in the history of popular and rock music.
Also, you may just be using the word "trained" to sound like a smartass. The tone of the rest of your post does not discredit this interpretation.
My point is that, at the end of the day, the voice - anyone's and everyone's - is just an instrument (as has been noted above). That someone's vocalizing differs from the commonly accepted model is insufficient grounds for good criticism of their art. Time has shown us this. In fact, many artists whose work was felt to be uncomfortably different by their contemporaries are in fact considered to be pillars of their musical generation.
As for the repeated assertion to the stunning quality of today's fifth form, 10th grade poetry, I just can't see it. Believe me, I was there, involved with my school literary magazine, just a few years ago.
[edit: demmit, couldn't find any documentation that Cage wrote pieces which called for the destruction/damaging of the instruments involved...could just be something I heard, hard not to believe it though ;) ]
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Emaline, it's okay for us to disagree, that's what creates discussion. A thread where everybody was saying how great JN is would be boring.
The only time it is not okay to disagree on the forums is when you act hostile to the people you disagree with.
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i am ninety percent sure that is the first time "stfu" was ever typed on this forum
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I don't know if I should be sad or glad about the "stfu" thing. I tend to only say it in a joking manner.
And Spinless, I know. I like the whole agree-disagree thing, but when it gets to the point where people are arguing, it gets annoying. Or when someone is trying to force someone to change their opinion, after several failed attempts.
ETA: I hope no one has taken any offense to anything I've said.
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I keep getting distracted by Johnny C's avatar because it is funny.
GUYS IT IS MY SUBJECTIVE OPINION THAT JOHNNY C'S AVATAR IS BETTER THAN JOANNA NEWSOM *AND* DRAGONFORCE
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joanne newsom is hott
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JOHNNY C'S AVATAR IS BETTER THAN DRAGONFORCE
jeph
let's not say anything we can't take back jeph
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she's got booooootay!
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I'm interested in your use of the phrase "trained ear." Trained in what, may I ask?
I'm quoting my mother, who took honours in Music specialising in vocal performance and mediaeval instruments and used to sing semi-professionally herself in the 70s. I've also run Newsom's "singing" past several other pro and semi-pro musos of my acquaintance, and while the reaction was not always as extreme the hatred was universal.
Your arguments regarding the riots following the debut of The Rite of Spring and the initial reception of Romanticism are both facile and spurious. Stravinsky and Beethoven - and, for that matter, the likes of Jerry Lee Lewis and Elvis - evoked extreme reactions from the public because what they were doing was radically different to what came before. Nobody properly understood it, and some of it they found outrageous. Newsom is not doing anything new or different; she's just Bjork with pretensions.
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The point is that you're assuming that for Newsom to be a good singer, she has to measure up to a standard of professionalism mandated by an institution of which she isn't necessarily a part. There are many of us for whom that doesn't correlate with being an interesting musician. That's why the musical professionals whom you're citing aren't such convincing authorities in this matter. They've been trained to value certain qualities above others, whereas those of us who don't necessarily care about the technical aspects of music are more inclined to value the kind of passion and personal expression that we hear in artists like Newsom. And I don't mean to suggest that there isn't a place for vocal performances that are grounded in theory, but I for one will choose the Shaggs or Damo Suzuki every single time. ;)
And speaking of facile comparisons, citing Bjork in relation to Joanna Newsom is incredibly lazy. The two are extremely different.
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she's just Bjork with pretensions.
What an incredibly easy thing to say. Then again, I'm biased, being a fan of both. I'd ask you to substantiate this claim.
As to my examples...isn't the reaction we're seeing to Newsom's music (of which this thread is a nice microcosm) much like the reaction to The Rite of Spring? The riot wasn't of the entire audience storming the streets of Paris because they all thought the ballet was terrible; they disagreed among themselves (hotly) about its quality. Some of them probably would have claimed that the rough and intensely rhythmic nature of the piece was physically painful and not at all proper to a ballet (or even proper to music). The only reason fistfights aren't breaking here out is because it's over the Internet! (bit of an exaggeration, but still)
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First, I'm wondering how Bjork isn't pretentious if Newsom is. I'd say Bjork is more pretentious. For example, she wore a fucking swan around her neck to some awards ceremony a few years back. A swan. And just watch 'Dancer in the Dark' or 'Drawing Restrain 9.' Believe me, she's pretentious.
Also, some of Newsom's lyrics, like the lyrics of many many artists, might not make complete sense to everyone. Music is often very personal and just like poetry the artist may be conveying an idea that isn't accesible or understandable to most people, or anyone besides the artist in some cases. This is not a bad thing. That's what makes art so wonderful. It can be very accesible but it doesn't have to be in order to be unique and excellent. Some of Newsom's lyrics do "make sense " and many are much more ambiguous and possibly meaningless to you or someone else. But surely to Newsom they hold meaning. Just as one wouldn't criticize a modern art piece for not resembling something tangible in the real world, one shouldn't criticize a writer, either or prose, poetry, or lyrics, simply because one cannot easily ascertain what it is that writer is trying to say. That's my two cents anyway.
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Guys didn't you get the memo
this thread is now about Dragonforce and Johnny C's avatar
not Bjork and Warblegrammoth
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what a fucking awesome avatar
let's all meet up with this johnny c character, i bet he's a tiger in the sack
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Why the fuck are we arguing about Joanna Newsom?? You like her, you don't, that's fine. But don't tell each other that the other's opinion is wrong. How many times do we have to go over this?? Opinions are subjective, are like assholes, and we're all born with them because we're subjective assholes.
For what it's worth, I love Joanna Newsom, but as the Silver Jews line goes "all my favorite singers couldn't sing." Didn't it occur to anyone that people might enjoy a girl who sounds like a tone deaf elf?? I mean shit, people like other terrible singers, why is this so different??
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It doesn't take a genius to see that opinions are subjective, but that kind of freshman relativism shouldn't dissuade us from arguing about art as we like.
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I could have been a famous singer,
If I'd had someone else's voice.
But failure's always sounded better,
Let's fuck it up boys. Make some noise!
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Comparing Bjork and Joanna Newsom is like comparing a weird, artsy apple to a weird, artsy orange.
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fruit is too pedestrian for those two
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Even if it's silly fruits like figs and pomegranites?
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(http://www.melissas.com/images/products/484a.jpg)
(http://www.passion4fruit.com/uploads/pics/dragon-fruit.jpg)
What the hell kind of fruit is that?
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That's no fruit, it's a pokemon.
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Just in case anyone actually wants to know, the second one's dragon fruit. It's surprisingly un-exciting to eat. I've eaten the other one too, but forget what it's called. Jack fruit? Is that something else? *shrug*
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Star fruit would you believe. They're actually not bad, but not so good that you see them as more than a bit of a decoration very often. The dragonfruit is possibly the blandest fruit in the world. You eat it and the only reason you know you're eating it is because you're chewing a little. Not too much though, the pulp is pretty much a paste iirc.
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You kids wanna get into Lychees. They look cool and they taste all right.
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Yeah, but will it evolve into Rosalia, Cradilly or Cherubi?
edit: My research says that it will turn into Carnivine. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivine)
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You kids wanna get into Lychees. They look cool and they taste all right.
Indeed.
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for those of you who hate joanna newsom you can pretend she is represented by this fruit:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Durio_kutej_F_070203_ime.jpg)
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Is that that really smelly fruit?
I love star fruit, by the way. It's awesome, and kinda sour, if I remember correctly.
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Yeah, the insides of that fruit smell like shit, puke and dead things. Plus that outside is as dangerous as you'd think.
Seriously it's like God is telling you "DON'T EAT THIS FRUIT."
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I bet good things would happen if we did. Remember the first time we tested him?
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When I was on holiday in Cambodia ("It's tough kid, but it's life") once ther was a funny notice in my hotel room that said "do not eat or even bring durian into your room". Durian being that smelly fruit.
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I thought is tasted like amazing though, and that's why it's way expensive.
I could never eat it though. I couldn't get past the smell.
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Given that the vast majority of flavour is actually derived from your sense of smell, I'm gonna give it a miss.
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sorry to be all ignoring the fruit here, but...
I saw Angus & Julia Stone in Brisbane when I was there, and i was surprised, cos so much of the show was Julia singing her own stuff in this ANNOYING joanna newsom type voice, which i'm pretty sure was a complete affectation...
if that's how her voice just sounds whens she opens her mouth then i'm fine with it. but if she's DELIBERATELY singing that way, then i'm not following her logic.
that said, this tourist ad that's on tv at the moment to try to make everyone visit melbourne has a joanna newsome song throughout it which really fits very well.
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I'd marry Joanna Newson and devote my entire life to her. Or Tori Amos. Both ideally.
But I digress. I like Oranges - man are THOSE weird fruit!
.me.
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/dd/Singapore_MRT_Fines.jpg/471px-Singapore_MRT_Fines.jpg)
"... its odor is best described as pig-shit, turpentine and onions, garnished with a gym sock." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durian)