THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)
Fun Stuff => ENJOY => Topic started by: onewheelwizzard on 19 Oct 2007, 20:14
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Maybe this belongs in the books forum, but to be honest I thought it more an I-Like-Fish flavor myself.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/50787
"In front of a full house of hardcore Potter fans at Carnegie Hall in New York, Rowling, sitting on the stage on a red velvet and carved wood throne, read from her seventh and final book, "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows," then took questions. One fan asked whether Albus Dumbledore, the head of the famed Hogwarts School of Wizardry and Witchcraft, had ever loved anyone. Rowling smiled. "Dumbledore is gay, actually," replied Rowling as the audience errupted in surprise. She added that, in her mind, Dumbledore had an unrequited love affair with Gellert Grindelwald, Voldemort's predecessor who appears in the seventh book. After several minutes of prolonged shouting and clapping from astonshed fans, Rowling added. "I would have told you earlier if I knew it would make you so happy.""
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unleash the internet
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I wonder how those hardcore Christian groups who couldn't handle wizards, let alone homosexual wizards, are going to react to this?
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Probably by accidentally making it more popular.
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Oh my goodness.
Oh my goodness.
Oh my goodness slash writers are going to go absolutely crazy.
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Is she saying gay people can't love?? I know she mentions the affair, but that's what it sounds like.
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who the hell is Hannah Abott?
why does it sound like she just made that name up right on the spot?
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Hannah Abott was at least mentioned in the first book. She was the first to get sorted and ended up in Hufflepuff, I believe.
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She was mentioned a couple times...
I just made a myspace bulletin out of this. I feel so...geeky...all of my friends are hardcore Harry Potter fans. Or they are gay. Either one. Thought it really came as no surprise, someone at Hogwarts had to be gay. It was just a given.
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I wonder how those hardcore Christian groups who couldn't handle wizards, let alone homosexual wizards, are going to react to this?
Religious fundamentalists of all stripes (you have to remember the Harry Potter books are popular around the world) have already condemned the books and called for them to be banned so I'm not sure what else they can do. Falwell's claims that the Teletubies promoted homosexuality actually resulted in the series getting picked up by more networks because of all the hype he caused.
I guess it's true what they say in Hollywood; any publicity is good publicity. The more the religious groups protest the more publicity they give to the series.
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Oh my goodness slash writers are going to go absolutely crazy.
[Rowling] also said after revelation: "I had to give you something to talk about for the next 10 years...Just imagine the fan fiction now."
She knows.
"If you could marry anyone from the Harry Potter series, who would it be?" asked by Kristian Cuzco, 18, from Concord High School on Staten Island.
"I married a really good person. Harry is a really good person. And he's a gutsy person," Rowling said.
Wait, what?
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Oh my goodness slash writers are going to go absolutely crazy.
My very first though, infact I momentarily froze up as my brain processed the full scale of the internet based implications. Actually, you know what? I don't think I'll be on the internet for a few days. I'm going to ride out this storm in the safety of some video games, old man slash can't reach me there.
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Actually, guys, this is pretty cool. You don't get many gay characters in books written for children/young adults at all, let alone admirable ones. Then again, she could have let slip actually in the books...Phillip Pullman had gay angels bouncing around everywhere and no one complained that much.
Actually, I know it's a tangent, but did the His Dark Materials books not get big in the US? If something as harmless as Harry Potter could make them froth up, I imagine that HDM would make their heads explode a la Todd.
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Seriously, if the gay angels weren't a slap in the face of every right-wing conservative christian Republican I don't know what is. And now they are making a movie that stars people like Nicole Kidman and the guy who plays the new Bond.
Though it being a "family movie" I bet you 50 bucks they write the gayness out of the second one. And the polar bear eating the cowboy. Man, I need to go read those books again.
And as for Dumbledore being gay I think she's either doing it for publicity or she just wasn't ballsy enough to write it in the books, which I think is a shame either way. Love takes all forms people, even fictional characters like the occasional butt sex.
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I bet if you go back and read the books it'll make sense. She's thought out most of the additional, unwritten information about her characters, it looks like. Also, why would she need the publicity? She doesn't. She's filthy rich. They have her reading from a throne.
She just let the character live and felt we didn't need to have it set in stone. That's her call as an author to make.
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I'm not sure Harry Potter could get anymore publicity and/or hype than it has already.
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Beyond all that, outright stating his sexuality in the book would've come off as entirely forced and out of place. I can see exactly where she's coming from after reading book seven. The implications are there for anyone willing to connect the dots.
I can't really picture a scenario in the book where it really would've been at all relevant to the story to have him come out without it coming off as creepy. Honestly, outside of a handful of characters, sexuality wasn't really even touched on. Given, some relationships were there, but nobody felt the need to say "Hey, I'm straight."
This is the difficulty of portraying homosexuality in media. You either play a constant guessing game and constantly imply shit or you just make it gratuitous and out of place in anything other than a long serialized plotline. As an example, the first outted comic book superhero was Northstar of Alpha Flight/X-Men. They hinted at and inferred his sexuality often for the better part of a decade or so before having him finally come out of the closet. This worked because it was a natural progression and it'd been built to and didn't read like pure shock for the sake of it. He was a superhero, but he also happened to be gay. Conversely, the garbage that was Will and Grace handled it about as poorly as possible. The gay characters were just there BECAUSE they were gay. Their only big defining characteristics were being gay stereotypes.
Basically, it's very rare in the real world that one's sexuality is what defines them as a person, yet in the media, it's typically a characters definition.
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Conversation in my kitchen at lunch today:
ME: Hey, you read Harry Potter right?
HOUSEMATE #1: Yeah?
ME: Did you hear the news?
HOUSEMATE: What, about Dumbledore being gay?
ME: Yeah!
(HOUSEMATE #2 WALKS IN)
HOUSEMATE #2: Hey! Hey! Guess what guys?
ME: Dumbledores gay?
HOUSEMATE #2: Oh :(
His Dark Materials spoilers below, in case anyone minds that sort of thing...
They could possibly skirt around gay angels, but I can't see any way you could have anything approaching a similiar plot in the third book without the main characters GOING TO WAR AGAINST GOD AND KILLING HIM.
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Were there actually two genders of angels? I got more of a "it's your thoughts and actions that define you as a person rather than your genitalia" feel from it rather than any of the angels being male nor homosexual.
Wait, I think maybe one of them was referred to as 'she' at some point so there goes my take on things. Whatever.
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Moving this to the book forum because it really is about books. Guys, if you think something is interesting, it doesn't necessarily need to go into I Like Fish. Pleassse let's give the other subforums some love?
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I've recently started going through all the books again, to pick up clues about the ending, but now I think I'm going to start looking for little Dumbledore-is-gay signs... I'm kind of excited.
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Wingardium leviosa indeed.
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I'm not sure Harry Potter could get anymore publicity and/or hype than it has already.
THIS
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I was always a much bigger HDM fan than Harry Potter, though I am liking this latest bit of news- Dumbledore just raised in cool factor (or gay factor, I suppose) to Captain Shakespeare in Stardust ("We always knew you were a whoopsie!")
And honestly, I don't know what Rowling would've done to appease fans if the reaction wasn't pleasant. She couldn't have pulled the, "At least I didn't kill the character" card. (Oops... :o).
HAHA, I laughed at Khar's apt description of "gay angels bouncing around." I happen to like Balthamos and Baruch! Even though angels don't have definable genitalia, they DO have names!
And as for his spoiler:
Weitz better keep his damn promises :D.
PS: Tehz. HAHA, I see what you've done.
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Also, Khar, HDM-wise, I always thought that the series was popular over here, but in a different way. Everyone and their mother read the Harry Potter books, but the kids who read His Dark Materials were the ones who had a deeper interest in reading. There actually was some type of flurry about the books. I remember that a few months after I had read The Golden Compass, I read a newspaper article about how it had seriously angered some religious groups or something. But I was in 4th or 5th grade and I don't think I fully comprehended what I was reading. Anyways, HDM never completely "seduced" the world as did Harry Potter.
Maybe Lise knows what I'm sayin'.
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Ally, I just wish I had the chance to read the books at a younger age. Fan jealousy does exist! I can't remember exactly how old I was picking up the first, but I do remember being slightly confused when told that The Amber Spyglass was in the adult section (taboo, I tell ya!). Finishing the series, then going back and reading Pullman's other works was almost disappointing- I wanted a sequel :P (off-topic, but anyone know when Book of the Dust will be released?).
One can argue about whether or not Harry Potter was better suited than HDM in reaching a "wider audience" of children and adults, but I'm giving Ally props for throwing out that HDM fans "were the ones with a deeper interest in reading" (o/, Ally!). Or maybe I've just been reading Harry Potter too informally :P.
Hehe, you can judge the value of each series by how many religious groups riled up.
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I remember waiting years for the arrival of the Amber Spyglass. OK, only two years, but it seemed like about forty-six.
Best wait ever.
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My brother is a huge fan of HDM and to the best of my knowledge hasn't read a novel in at least a year. That aside they certainly appeal to a niche compared with harry potter.
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unleash the internet
I need this on a shirt.
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I sent this to my friend apple, who LOVES harry potter.
I read this on gaygamer and I was like "AHAHAHAW!"
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So now I have a whole new idea about how Dumbledore got that scar on his knee.
I just wonder why she chose to reveal that? It doesn't really have bearing on the books whatsoever. It almost seems like she wanted to create a frenzy.
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One of my friends asked me if I thought maybe this is why Dumbledore was so interested in Harry. I'm now more scared of my friends.
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Well, it *is* Daniel Radcliffe playing Harry.
Idunno though, maybe it might've been something to do with that whole "HE'S THE ONE TO SAVE EVERY LAST ONE OF US" prophecy thing.
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Dumbledore Shot First.
I think that her motivations for disclosing it are pretty clear. From the yahoo article:
Rowling told the audience that while working on the planned sixth Potter film, "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince," she spotted a reference in the script to a girl who once was of interest to Dumbledore. A note was duly passed to director David Yates, revealing the truth about her character.
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I need this on a shirt.
Paging Jeph Jacques to this thread. Jeph Jacques, this thread.
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I'm personally glad that Rowling outed ole Dumbles in the way that she did. I think that if she directly referenced homosexuality in her books, some parents wouldn't want their children to read them anymore. I think that by telling telling the world that her beloved character was gay after everyone read the books, she was more effective at winning a victory for tolerance.
This whole thing was better suited as an afterthought. And what an afterthought it is...
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When I first heard the news about Dumbledore, my immediate response was, "Huh?" Then, two sentences later, when I heard who his true love was, my second reaction was, "Ohhhhhhhhh......"
It's entirely possible he remained celebate after that. This was not just a forbidden love, but one that contributed to the death of his sister. After that, he may have felt he could no longer trust himself with ANYONE.
P.S. It seems Larry Craig was looking for love in all the wrong places.
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It's entirely possible he remained celebate after that. This was not just a forbidden love, but one that contributed to the death of his sister. After that, he may have felt he could no longer trust himself with ANYONE.
But that's the thing though, what good does a beloved character being gay do for tolerance if he's celibate and harmless? It's about as progressive as Will and Grace was. Or that lesbian prosecutor being outed on Law & Order was. Being gay is totally acceptable to the average person if being gay means not having any interest in sex whatsoever.
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So, only straight characters are allowed to be celibate? Gay characters have to be open and constantly in relationships so they can make a statement and progress some cause?
I've actually assumed he was gay ever since I read book seven. She didn't explicitly say it, but it's there. If Grindelwald had been a woman, everyone would've immediately assumed they had a deeper relationship without it being stated too. She wrote Dumbledore like any other character. How terrible and unprogressive of her!
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Most people aren't uncomfortable with the idea of straight character with sexuality, if not an active sex life. Oftentimes they expect one. But a lot of people are made uncomfortable by the idea of a sexual gay character, and it's safe to assume that most gay people aren't celibate, and are sexual in some way. Using a celibate character doesn't address anyone's issues with gay sex or even the idea of a homosexual relationship in any way, it avoids all that, and thus you have characters who just happen to be gay, the way you might happen to have, say, run track in high school. It's a fact about you, but it has no real bearing on who you are as a person. That seems to be the case with Dumbledore. He's a noble, good character who happens to be gay. Great, that's fine. What he isn't is a noble, good character who has sex, wants to have sex with other men, or finds other men attractive. And thus even though Dumbledore's a gay character, nobody's forced to confront any prejudices they might have towards gay people in general by empathizing with him, although his fatherly relationship with Harry might help to prevent the common misconception that gay men are somehow sexually interested in male children and teens as a matter of course, which is certainly something worth pursuing.
I don't really have any problem with the character per se, but I find it a little dubious to think that any of this seriously addresses the problem of intolerance. I hope that makes sense.
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One of my friends asked me if I thought maybe this is why Dumbledore was so interested in Harry. I'm now more scared of my friends.
This was actually suggested in DH, when Rita Skeeta was giving subtle hints at her book.
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Woah wait a minute I thought this gay bomb technology was still decades away.
Sign me up as an enemy combatant.
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As much as I agree that homosexuals aren't all "HAY WUTS UP LETS HAS A SEX," I bet it would be *brilliant* to shag a wizard. Magical, if you will.
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(http://www.bsu.edu/news/media/41818/ozziesmith.jpg)
?
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To me, HDM surpasses HP in pretty much every way. I think I read most of HDM (if not all) before I read HP and I guess I never really compared the two for some reason. Looking at them side by side now, however, I think it's pretty astounding how much better the writing of HDM is compared to that of HP. The plot is a hell of a lot more mature and interesting (not to mention original), the characters are more engaging ect. I think it's unfortunate that HDM didn't take off like HP did because it really is an excellent series.
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I hate to say it, but it probably will once the movie comes out. That always happens. Kind of annoying really.
I always thought of Dumbledore as somewhat asexual, so him having an unrequited love of another guy doesn't bother me. The books kind of described him as flamboyant (the suit he wore when he first met Voldie, etc), even for a wizard, so hey, it works. And Grindelwald really makes sense, seeing as they'd been so close and almost intellectually equal.
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I seriously hope that there will be some good (GOOD! not trashy) Young!Dumbledore/Young!Grindewald fanfiction to come out of this... I had an idea in my head, but I think I might just let it go... I have to much other crap to do.
As for the whole "thing", I'm glad that she had this idea of Dumbledore's past in her head, and that he was gay as a part of it. I am wondering if it something that was known in the wizarding world, or if he rose to greatness in "hiding". There are just a bunch more unanswered questions now. Damn you, Rowling.
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(http://www.danzfamily.com/archives/blogphotos/06/393-tibbets-enola-gay.jpg)
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I seriously hope that there will be some good (GOOD! not trashy) Young!Dumbledore/Young!Grindewald fanfiction to come out of this
unleash the internet
Not gonna happen.
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I don't really have any problem with the character per se, but I find it a little dubious to think that any of this seriously addresses the problem of intolerance. I hope that makes sense.
she wrote a novel, not a gay-rights tract. just because a character is gay doesn't mean the author needs to make a statement about all homosexuals.
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I seriously hope that there will be some good (GOOD! not trashy) Young!Dumbledore/Young!Grindewald fanfiction to come out of this
unleash the internet
Not gonna happen.
I honestly wish people would stop making fanfic for just about everything, but yeah, it's just not going to happen. And what does come about probably will be trashy. As usual.
Edit: to cover both slash and everything else.
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When slash isn't your thing, there are plenty of het fics to go through too. I'm sure there's a few Dumbledore/McGonagalls out there.
And not all slash is trash. You just have to give the effort to look for the good stuff.
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...hold on, I just shuddered
OK. Wow, this shit be interesting. There really do need to be more depictions of old gay men in the media. Go Rowling.
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I don't know why but that post was the first thing to put a bad picture into my mind.
Nooooooooooooooooooooo............
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Nooooooooooooooooooooo............
There are plenty of /34/s of ole Dumbles out there that made me say the same thing. ]:
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I haven't gotten any bad mental images from this discussion until now.
Thanks a lot jimbunny. I hope you're happy.
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I always thought there was something off about Dumbledore. Now i know what it was.
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Maybe it's all the 4ch0nz I've been taking in, but the thought of Dumbledore /34/ isn't all that nauseating. I mean, come on, there's worse things out there.
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When slash isn't your thing, there are plenty of het fics to go through too. I'm sure there's a few Dumbledore/McGonagalls out there.
And not all slash is trash. You just have to give the effort to look for the good stuff.
How should I put this...
It is is a cop out used by no-talent writers with hackneyed ideas who are too lazy to create their own worlds or characters.
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I have basically no appreciation or respect for fan fiction in general. Basically what Dan said. (And most of it is crap and/or trashy. Sorry if you disagree, but that's just how it is to me.) If you like writing, make up your own fictional world to write about, not something that was written by somebody else.
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I remember being SOOOOO pissed off when my favourite fanfic author came to that realisation (sometime before Goblet of Fire.) Thing is, though, it's true. If you can come up with a good story other people should read, you can probably come up with a coupla characters too.
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I think that a fan fiction is a good place for writers to get started, though. I mean, I rarely write it anymore (with the acception of 1 story, which I only continue to write simply because I want to finish it), but it peaked my interest in writing and got me to create my own ideas for original works. Plus, when I become a published author, I totally can't wait to read how someone else will warp my story to fit their ideas. I mean, yeah it might be crap, but it will still at least be amusing.
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Well, at least a celibate character is contrary to the whole "all gays are promiscuous deviants" thing.
Or maybe they just didn't talk about his sex life, just like they didn't talk about McGonagall's, or many other adult figures. It's just how Rowling imagined her character. I kind of like the idea that in the books he could just be gay, without it needing to become an issue.
Apparently, she chose to bring it up now because a draft of the next movie script had Dumbledore talking about a lady from his past. She could have just quietly corrected the screenwriters, but it would certainly have gotten out eventually. Appropriately , she let Dumbledore come out of the closet right after National Coming Out Week. I don't know if that was intentional, but it's certainly interesting.
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Or maybe they just didn't talk about his sex life, just like they didn't talk about McGonagall's, or many other adult figures.
Bingo!
It's obvious to me that she wrote him gay. It's also obvious how him being gay is about as relevant as McGonagall being straight(assuming she is...actually, I don't want to think too hard about that, thanks). It doesn't matter and the point of him being gay has nothing to do with tolerance or making people accept gay people. Harry Potter just exists in a world were people are actually human(/wizards) and that includes gay people. What. Ever.
Can our culture move on now?
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Not until we know if Dumbledore was a fisting bottom with a preference for uncut dominicans
GOD.
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1) I think Dumbledore being gay is so awesome! I've heard some gay people say, "Oh, but he didn't act gay enough or wasn't prominent enough to do anything for gay rights", etc, but I think they are missing the point entirely! This just goes to show anyone you know and respect could be gay, and it really shouldn't affect your opinion of that person. I believe, in movies, having a flamboyant gay character as the norm is actually starting to hurt gay rights. It's beginning to caricaturize gay people as a whole. Just like other types of people, there are many different types of gay people. I have three middle aged/old professors who are openly gay and it would be ridiculous to suggest that because they don't dress trendy, have the latest style hair or "talk gay", that they are failing to advance gay rights or something. Besides, someone's sexuality has NOTHING to do with the general storyline of the books and shouldn't be brought up anyway.
2) I hated how people started saying afterwards that Dumbledore was probably actually some creepy old pedophile who was gunning for Tom Riddle and Harry Potter. Gay old men are, as a majority, not pedophiles. It's such a narrow minded view and it scares me to think how people immediately turned their opinions against him. I wonder what will happen when this happens in real life? For example, if a decorated hero, using perhaps Lt. Michael Murphy, who was recently awarded the Medal of Honor for being killed by enemy fire while attempting to save his team, was discovered to be gay, would this affect people's view of him? Probably. Should it? No.
3) Dumbledore being gay, while not really having anything to do with the story of the Harry Potter books, turns Dumbledore into more of a Tragic Hero than Harry. One could almost(?) argue now that Dumbledore was JKR's principal character, not Harry. While Harry has been criticized as being a static character, Dumbledore is a character who started off as a kind, famous, powerful and all knowing wizard and ended as a person who people realized was very human, with very human mistakes, and the very human ability to experience love and loss. Grindelwald is Dumbledore's hamartia, and while one could argue Dumbledore did not experience peripeteia in a pure sense of the term, definitely Dumbledore having to battle his best friend and lover brought about his anagnorisis (aka, him realizing that the ideas he had formulated with Grindelwald was defintely evil and that he had to stand against ideas and people who supported them. Dumbledore is most definitely the Tragic Hero of this story. And I love him.
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I just wonder why she chose to reveal that?
someone asked her. duh.
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I hated how people started saying afterwards that Dumbledore was probably actually some creepy old pedophile who was gunning for Tom Riddle and Harry Potter.
I agree. If Dumbledore were straight, his sexuality would be of no consequence whatsoever to the plot. It hasn't been up until now, has it? I hate how for a lot of people, being gay = sexual deviant.
Can our culture move on now?
SECONDED.
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It's obvious to me that she wrote him gay. It's also obvious how him being gay is about as relevant as McGonagall being CLEARLY A FAG HAG
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I was gonna post something... but cmon miracle posted it for me.
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I started reading HP right around when they came out, so...10 years ago? I don't really know if I fully understood what being 'gay' was. Like, the idea of one male liking another was reasonably foreign.
I don't know if she was doing it for publicity or to make a statement, but I'm glad she did. It doesn't seem like people will be putting down her books any time soon because of this.
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I have mixed feelings about the release of that kind of information. I mean, for one, I don't think anybody should even care. So what, he was into dudes!
*POTENTIAL SPOILERS*
It does make a bit of sense though, I agree. I mean, his correspondence with Grindelwald is definitely something to think about. The two discussed a "Greater Good" philosophy, which honestly seems rather Hitler-esque. But keep in mind that people, no matter what their sexual orientation, will go absolutely insane because of love. I've done it before and it was a mindfuck when I got out of it, and I learned a lot from it. Dumbledore becoming the excellent authority figure he was was probably a result of that whole relationship ending in the death of the one he loved.
*END POTENTIAL SPOILERS*
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I lolled at how she worded her answer. She was originally asked 'Did DD ever fall in love?' and her very first response was 'well, he's gay.' After which she then brought up Grindewald. But when I first read it, I thought she was saying gay people couldn't fall in love.
Later, I heard from huge fanfic fan friends I have how dissappointed they were that it was DD that was gay and not Sirius/Lupin. I'm so happy it wasn't them.
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Your fanfic friends sound pretty far in denial considering Lupin married Tonks and the hints at a relationship developing between the two had been laid since at least Half Blood Prince (Possibly Order of the Phoenix, though it slips my mind). Considering he was already a pariah due to being a werewolf, I sincerely doubt coming out of the closet would be particularly difficult for him.
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I'd rather it be Dumbledore than Sirius/Lupin or Harry/Draco. The latter four seemed to have no interest in members of the same sex, while Dumbledore was already pretty flamboyant (among other things!). Also, three of the latter four had relationships with females. Sirius was basically too busy running/hiding, so I can understand why he didn't have any romantic interest. (Basically any reason to negate the silliness of the slash some people come up with is fine by me, but we already discussed that.)
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I agree. If Dumbledore were straight, his sexuality would be of no consequence whatsoever to the plot.
Sorry, but this is just not right. For one thing, it would have added new dimensions to his insistence on keeping Trelawney in the castle . . . .
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I'd rather it be Dumbledore than Sirius/Lupin
if it had been sirius/lupin i would have gone to rowling's house and taken a shit on it
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Just one shit? Why not a bunch? Go for the gold!
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you seriously underestimate the size of the shit that news would force me to take
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Just make sure you get a lot of fiber beforehand, we wouldn't want you rupturing something on this crusade.
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And then some laxatives. To make sure it's a massive shit. MASSIVE.
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I don't care how flamboyant Dumbledore was, that has nothing to do with his sexual orientation. First off, he honestly seemed pretty chilled out to me, and second, flamboyance doesn't make people gay. Homosexuality makes people gay. Flamboyance is just a trait that popular culture picks on. I mean, which is funnier, the gay guy who doesn't really make a big deal out of it, or the gay guy who's like "HAAAAY GUYS I BOUGHT A PURSE THE OTHER DAAAAAY"? The latter is funnier because it's more outrageous.
Also Johnny I would totally help you with shitting on her house. I am a champion toilet-clogger.
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Is that really something to be proud of?
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Yeah, I've got the medal and everything. It's a BITCH to train for.
In other news, a thread was jacked on QC today, making it the third most easily threadjacked online community in the world, behind the tied 4chan and SomethingAwful.
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Ever been to Sonic related webfora?
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Yeah, I've got the medal and everything. It's a BITCH to train for.
I don't even want to know.
Also, how about that whole 'Dumbledore is gay' thing, eh?
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doesnt really matter?, I mean Dumbledore being gay, I just see it as fuel for fire for the fundies out there.
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Yeah, I've got the medal and everything. It's a BITCH to train for.
I don't even want to know.
Also, how about that whole 'Dumbledore is gay' thing, eh?
Clearly we have moved on to the topic of pooping! God, some people, with their 'guys, come on guys, let's keep to the point, guys...'
BAH I SAY!
Also - She probably avoided outing Sirius or Lupin for the (obviously legitimate) fear of poop on her lawn.
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I think she made dumbledore gay because everyone else makes her characters gay...
Its like
"Oh, My audience LOVES gay people... I'll make the best character gay! They'll love that!"
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1675622,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1675622,00.html)
heres an interesting article on the topic
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That article is kind of fucking ridiculous. Especially the bit about Dumbledore's homosexuality being the character's emotional identity. Because it obviously wasn't. Dumbledore's identity as a homosexual wizard was completely beside the point as any revelation of his sexual identity would not have furthered the storyline anymore. As it was Dumbledore was a kindly and obviously loving character that was surrounded by mystery. You didn't even find out any explicit information about him until the final books of the series. The thing that pisses me off the most though is that Cloud (the author) seems to be one of the many people out there with the view that all homosexual people have to be loud, "out there" and obnoxious about their orientation in order to justify it. Cloud talks about how it was "pathetic and tragically stereotypical" that Dumbledore should not talk nor acknowledge his sexuality. He also says that we can only conclude that Dumbledore found it shameful. I do not suppose it is possible that Dumbledore just found it none of anyone's damn business. Perhaps it would have been more empowering if he acted like Jack from Will & Grace? I find it impossible that people can be angry that a character as beloved as Dumbledore, a character who is seen as a role model now not just for the straight kids who want to practice magic but for the gay ones as well, a character who in all interactions conducts himself with grace and dignity was not portrayed as a stereotyped, campy and, let's face it, laughable caricature of an old gay man.
I've had a couple of conversations about personal identity with people I know and I have never understood why who you are attracted to is somehow the be all and end all of your existance. I'm told that because I'm a straight, white, middle class male all my opinions on any subject that does not concern people like me are completely bunk. That may or may not be true but I cannot fathom for one instant why a fictional portrayal of a gay man has to include loud, camp, and obnoxious behaviour. It is beyond me.
I realise that my little rant makes me come off as a bit of a crazy jerk who goes nuts on internet forums *nods to certain other forumites, you know who you are* and if someone wants to put forth a convincing argument as to why I am wrong then please go ahead because I would love to understand the opposing viewpoint.
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I'm guessing the thinking behind it is that, because there was nothing about Dumbledore which identified him as being gay, it's not as good a portrayal as if he was screamingly camp.
That's just a guess though. Personally I think that it's a bollocks argument. People are not identified by their sexual identity, y'know.
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In my opinion I think she just wanted to stir up some more good talk about herself. People are gonna take a look at the books again now and think "hmmm why didn't I pick up on him being gay before"..BAH J.K RAWLINGS lol...
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I think it's pretty simple. She came up with characters. She constructed identities for them. She happened to construct Dumbledore as having homosexuality as a trait. Then she wrote stories using her characters, and Dumbledore's homosexuality wasn't really relevant to the story, so it didn't really come up except implicitly at a few points.
Why si everyone convinced that it's a publicity stunt, or that she's somehow making this up after the fact? I don't think it takes much imagination to understand that she really just made her characters the way she wanted and not everything about them was obvious.
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It's not like Harry fucking Potter needed any more publicity at this point.
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I think it's pretty simple. She came up with characters. She constructed identities for them. She happened to construct Dumbledore as having homosexuality as a trait. Then she wrote stories using her characters, and Dumbledore's homosexuality wasn't really relevant to the story, so it didn't really come up except implicitly at a few points.
Why si everyone convinced that it's a publicity stunt, or that she's somehow making this up after the fact? I don't think it takes much imagination to understand that she really just made her characters the way she wanted and not everything about them was obvious.
YES. Why do some people think that being gay must define who someone is as a person/character at all times?
The only extra publicity this will bring is that the religious crazies will burn the books extra hard.
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With extra hot flames. Yeah.
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you dont seem like a crazy jerk. Totally, your debunking stereotypes. That is totally opposite of jerk in my opinion.
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I'll bet Sir Ian McKellen wishes he had gone for the role of Dumbledore now.
Ian's always said that there aren't nearly enough gay characters in the media, and that there are a lot of gay actors still in the closet. He was actually rumored to be a contender for the part after Richard Harris died, but he turned it down, saying that he was already connected to one major icon, Gandalf. (I'd say two, since he was also Magneto.)
I wonder which of the other characters in HP are gay? This should lead to a heavy amount of speculation on HP forums. Place your bets!
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Also, why would she need the publicity? She doesn't. She's filthy rich. They have her reading from a throne.
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I cannot fathom for one instant why a fictional portrayal of a gay man has to include loud, camp, and obnoxious behaviour.
THIS.
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Squiddy, I don't get the whole identity thing either. To be honest, gay or bisexual people who are all 'in your face' annoy the fuck out of me, for precisely the same reasons that heterosexuals who have nothing better to talk about than their sex life annoy me. Seriously. My opinion of the whole thing in general is that queerness being noticeable and abnormal is as bad as it being closeted. My kind of world is a world where being queer is BORING. Essentially, a world where normality does not really exist in the way it does nowadays (ie. normality equals majority at best, lowest common denominator at worst).
Based on this, I consider Dumbledore a completely normal and even exemplary gay character. There are obvious, OBVIOUS reasons why Dumbledore would not talk about his sexuality: because his relationship to all of the main characters is teacher to pupil. Would it have been natural to expect Snape to mention, in passing, his prediliction for making love to women? No. Neither would it have been natural for Dumbledore to ever say he was gay. Ever. It would have been fucking creepy, in fact.
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Or, to put it another way:
I have been in your confidence for a long time, and as such I have an important announcement to make, lest you feel that I have betrayed your trust by keeping it a secret:
I'm straight.
Yes, I admit, it's something that in today's society it's not always easy to talk about, but I am going to come out right now and admit that I'm straight.
What can I say? I just love breasts and curvy hips and the vagina. Ooh, yes, the vagina, the greatest element ever on God's green Earth. I swear, if I could get away with it, I would spend all of my time just sticking my hard dick into as many of them as I possibly could. It's the greatest fun that anyone could ever have.
Yes, placing my throbbing man-flesh into a soft, tiny woman-hole is the greatest feeling after a sensual massage, which is of course always best done by a topless lady, perhaps even progressing to the very act of copulation itself. BECAUSE I AM A MAN!!
Anyway, you said you had something important to discuss??
No, even I don't think I could imagine my superiors saying that.
EDIT: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=87
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So far that was the most unnecessary post I have read on these forums and that includes everytime someone posts "postcount +1".
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I am deeply disturbed by the direction this thread is going.
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So far that was the most unnecessary post I have read on these forums and that includes everytime someone posts "postcount I have nothing of value to add.".
To be honest, though, that was part of my point, I guess. You just don't do stuff at all like that in normal conversation, so it's pretty clear as to why the whole "OMG Dumbledore is teh gayzorz!!!11!!" not being in the book is fine with me, since it really has little to do with his role in most of the books.
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Yeah.
But your creepy-ass comment still grossed me out.
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I still think that Rowling telling everybody was just worldwide flame bait. You can just imagine what kind of crazy lulz she's getting out of this whole thing. And the hate letters from the people who can't stand it? Shit, I'd PAY to see those.
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Thats going to be her next book I hear.
The douche-bags that wrote to me.
A Memoir
By: J.K Rowling
\\...As I flipped through my e-mails, I stumbled upon a surprising, and hilarious, e-mail that said "J.K Rowling is a dumb bitchzorz" As I contemplated what a "bitchzorz" was, I padded my coffee soiled lips with a dollar bill.
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\\
...As I flipped through my e-mails, I stumbled upon a surprising, and hilarious, e-mail that said "J.K Rowling is a dumb bitchzorz" As I contemplated what a "bitchzorz" was, I padded my coffee soiled lips with a solid gold dildo signed by the Queen in diamonds.
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I would totally read that book.
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Wait...
(http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/dumbledore-is-gay-lolcat.jpg)
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1) I think Dumbledore being gay is so awesome! I've heard some gay people say, "Oh, but he didn't act gay enough or wasn't prominent enough to do anything for gay rights", etc, but I think they are missing the point entirely! This just goes to show anyone you know and respect could be gay, and it really shouldn't affect your opinion of that person. I believe, in movies, having a flamboyant gay character as the norm is actually starting to hurt gay rights. It's beginning to caricaturize gay people as a whole. Just like other types of people, there are many different types of gay people. I have three middle aged/old professors who are openly gay and it would be ridiculous to suggest that because they don't dress trendy, have the latest style hair or "talk gay", that they are failing to advance gay rights or something. Besides, someone's sexuality has NOTHING to do with the general storyline of the books and shouldn't be brought up anyway.
2) I hated how people started saying afterwards that Dumbledore was probably actually some creepy old pedophile who was gunning for Tom Riddle and Harry Potter. Gay old men are, as a majority, not pedophiles. It's such a narrow minded view and it scares me to think how people immediately turned their opinions against him. I wonder what will happen when this happens in real life? For example, if a decorated hero, using perhaps Lt. Michael Murphy, who was recently awarded the Medal of Honor for being killed by enemy fire while attempting to save his team, was discovered to be gay, would this affect people's view of him? Probably. Should it? No.
3) Dumbledore being gay, while not really having anything to do with the story of the Harry Potter books, turns Dumbledore into more of a Tragic Hero than Harry. One could almost(?) argue now that Dumbledore was JKR's principal character, not Harry. While Harry has been criticized as being a static character, Dumbledore is a character who started off as a kind, famous, powerful and all knowing wizard and ended as a person who people realized was very human, with very human mistakes, and the very human ability to experience love and loss. Grindelwald is Dumbledore's hamartia, and while one could argue Dumbledore did not experience peripeteia in a pure sense of the term, definitely Dumbledore having to battle his best friend and lover brought about his anagnorisis (aka, him realizing that the ideas he had formulated with Grindelwald was defintely evil and that he had to stand against ideas and people who supported them. Dumbledore is most definitely the Tragic Hero of this story. And I love him.
I only read this post. Jen, My esteem for you has increased exponentially. Specially that last paragraph.
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Really? I understood everything in her post until the third paragraph. Probably because she started using words that, to me, looked like she made them up. While drunk. I'm getting a dictionary.
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The concept of anagnorisis originates with Greek theatre.
Forget the dictionary, just go watch Woody Allen's film, Mighty Aphrodite.
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Here is a small glossary, for those (like me) who were mad confused.
Hamartia: Injury committed by accident, error of judgement. Probably used here in the sense of "tragic flaw", i.e. Grindelwald is Dumbledore's tragic flaw.
Peripeteia: A reversal. Not sure what this means exactly. I think it's referring to Dumbledore breaking with Grindelwald.
Anagnorisis: Recognition, revelation, a change from ignorance to knowledge. Realising his ideas were bad, of course.
Someone must have been reading Greek tragedy recently. Also, that is an amazing third paragraph, like E said.