Jeph Jacques's comics discussion forums

Fun Stuff => CHATTER => Topic started by: Gemmwah on 14 Feb 2008, 15:35

Title: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Gemmwah on 14 Feb 2008, 15:35
This afternoon at the North Illinois University campus in DeKalb, a male took a shotgun and a pistol into a Geology class in a large lecture hall containing approximately 150 students. So far 17 have been confirmed injured at hospital with three critical, and the gunman is confirmed to be dead.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/14/university.shooting/index.html

This has kinda hit me a little hard because I know a girl who goes to this University. Luckily, she nor any of her friends were injured but two of her friends were at the scene. It's just a bit intense.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: est on 14 Feb 2008, 15:36
I was about to post about this with the topic "Are you guys ok?"

I can never remember where everyone lives/studies.   Is everyone ok?
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Chrasstor on 14 Feb 2008, 15:39
Fucking trend hoppers.

It wasn't cool the first time, guy!
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Dissy on 14 Feb 2008, 15:40
i just saw this.  The report was that 15 are confirmed injured with three or more head wounds.


Why does someone do shit like this?  I doesn;t make sense to me.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Gemmwah on 14 Feb 2008, 15:44
It's now gone up to eighteen, i believe. Four in critical condition, eight in stable and six in fair-good. The gunman did kill himself.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Chrasstor on 14 Feb 2008, 15:47
This kind of thing really bothers me just because of the sheer animosity towards others these people must have.

Why would you do that? I mean, there's some people that I'd be glad to never see again, but this kind of thing is tragic. Imagine how the parents feel? Brothers, sisters? These are just fucking kids after all... Shoot-outs have really been putting young people's lives in danger lately, somebody needs to teach kids that it's not cool to go out like this. What happened to the old fashioned 'hang-yourself' method?

What were you doing when this shit went down? It's weird to think that I was contemplating skipping gym class with a friend when some bastard waltzed into a Geology Class and began firing shots at people not very different than myself. Gives you some perspective on how wild this world really is at any given moment.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: dennis on 14 Feb 2008, 15:51
Man. What the hell.

The simple explanation is that people who go shoot up classrooms are crazy.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Chrasstor on 14 Feb 2008, 16:00
Yeah, but, what the fuck is with all the shoot-outs lately? Have I just recently come in check with news, or has there really been a tremendous amount of shoot-outs lately? It's getting ridiculous.

There's always been crazies, why now have they all decided that the best way to express themselves is to take a couple of fire-arms into a school and take some lives?
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: dennis on 14 Feb 2008, 16:05
Well, there's this one, and the one that happened last year at VT. I can't really think of any others. Two doesn't make a pattern. Violent, aberrant people have existed as long as humanity has. Guns are just weapons, and classrooms are just settings.

I mean, people get shot every day.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Scandanavian War Machine on 14 Feb 2008, 16:10
actually, i think it does.

i bet if you look at the last 20 years or so there have been an increasing number of school shootings, whereas there was probably that same number of shootings spread throughout the hundred years before that.*

you know what i mean? one per year is an alarming rate. i wouldn't be surprised if 50 years ago they had maybe one every couple of years, maybe even less.



*not actual statistics. i'm just guessing.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Chrasstor on 14 Feb 2008, 16:12
Quote
Columbine High School massacre    Littleton, Colorado, United States    April 20, 1999
Heritage High School shooting    Conyers, Georgia, United States    May 20, 1999
Buell Elementary School shooting    Mount Morris Township, Michigan, United States    February 29, 2000
Santana High School shooting    Santee, California, United States    March 5, 2001
Granite Hills High School shooting    El Cajon, California    March 22, 2001
Appalachian School of Law shooting    Grundy, Virginia, United States    January 16, 2002
John McDonogh High School Shooting    New Orleans, LA, United States    April 14, 2003
Red Lion Area Junior High School shootings    Red Lion, Pennsylvania, United States    April 24, 2003
Rocori High School shootings    Cold Spring, Minnesota, United States    September 24, 2003
Red Lake High School massacre    Red Lake, Minnesota, United States    March 21, 2005
Campbell County High School shooting    Jacksboro, Tennessee    November 8, 2005
Pine Middle School shooting    Reno, Nevada, United States    March 14, 2006
Platte Canyon High School shooting    Bailey, Colorado, United States    September 27, 2006
Weston High School shooting    Cazenovia, Wisconsin    September 29, 2006
Amish school shooting    Nickel Mines, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, United States    October 2, 2006
Virginia Tech massacre    Blacksburg, Virginia, United States    April 16, 2007
Delaware State University shooting    Dover, Delaware, United States    September 21, 2007
SuccessTech Academy shooting    Cleveland, Ohio, United States    October 10, 2007
Notre Dame Elementary shooting    Portsmouth, Ohio, United States    February 7, 2008
Louisiana Technical College shooting    Baton Rouge, LA, United States    February 8, 2008
Mitchell High School shooting    Memphis, TN, United States    February 11, 2008
E.O. Green Junior High School shooting    Oxnard, CA, United States    February 12, 2008
McNair High School shooting    Atlanta, GA, United States    February 12, 2008    
Northern Illinois University shooting    DeKalb, Illinois, United States    February 14, 2008

This is since Columbine. Twenty-four shoot-outs in less than a decade, and that's just in the ole US of A. Before that we had

Quote
University of Texas at Austin massacre    Austin, Texas, United States    August 1, 1966
Orangeburg Massacre    Orangeburg, South Carolina, United States    February 8, 1968
Kent State shootings    Kent, Ohio, United States    May 4, 1970
Jackson State killings    Jackson, Mississippi, United States    May 14-15, 1970
California State University, Fullerton Library Massacre    Fullerton, California, United States    July 12, 1976
Cleveland Elementary School shooting    San Diego, California, United States    January 29, 1979
Parkway South Junior High School shooting    Saint Louis, Missouri, United States    January 20, 1983
Stockton massacre    Stockton, California, United States    January 17, 1989
University of Iowa shooting    Iowa City, Iowa, United States    November 1, 1991
Simon's Rock College of Bard shooting    Great Barrington, Massachusetts, United States    December 14, 1992
Lindhurst High School shooting    Marysville, California, United States    May 1, 1992
East Carter High School shooting    Grayson, Kentucky, United States    January 18, 1993
Richland High School shooting    Lynnville, Tennessee, United States    November 15, 1995
Frontier Junior High shooting    Moses Lake, Washington, United States    February 2, 1996
Bethel High School shooting    Bethel, Alaska, United States    February 19, 1997
Pearl High School shooting    Pearl, Mississippi, United States    October 1, 1997
Heath High School shooting    West Paducah, Kentucky United States    December 1, 1997
Jonesboro massacre    Jonesboro, Arkansas, United States    March 24, 1998
Parker Middle School Shooting    Edinboro, Pennsylvania    April 24, 1998
Thurston High School shooting    Springfield, Oregon, United States    May 21, 1998

There's been 20 since 1966 until columbine in '99 ffs. It seems like since the 90s shoot-outs have been happening like crazy. This is of course, if Wikipedia isn't full of shit

SUMMARY EDIT: In the last 9 years there's been 4 more shoot-outs than in an entire 33 before that.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Scandanavian War Machine on 14 Feb 2008, 16:13
it's worse than i thought.

damn.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: 0bsessions on 14 Feb 2008, 16:14
The thing you guys aren't taking into account: It's a lot easier to get a hold of a gun nowadays than it was way back when.

The nutcase factor hasn't gone up, just the population and the gun total.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Scandanavian War Machine on 14 Feb 2008, 16:23
i kind of thought that went without saying. i mean, it's pretty obvious that we're all just as crazy as ever, we just happen to have more access to destruction-causing machinery.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Gemmwah on 14 Feb 2008, 16:23
Five people pronounced dead.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Chrasstor on 14 Feb 2008, 16:25
Quote
Notre Dame Elementary shooting    Portsmouth, Ohio, United States    February 7, 2008
Louisiana Technical College shooting    Baton Rouge, LA, United States    February 8, 2008
Mitchell High School shooting    Memphis, TN, United States    February 11, 2008
E.O. Green Junior High School shooting    Oxnard, CA, United States    February 12, 2008
McNair High School shooting    Atlanta, GA, United States    February 12, 2008   
Northern Illinois University shooting    DeKalb, Illinois, United States    February 14, 2008

Looking over that shit I posted... Notice anything a bit strange? That's almost a shoot-out every other day this month. I'm wondering if this is really true.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: tommydski on 14 Feb 2008, 16:37
My thoughts go out to everyone affected by this and their families.

A tragedy, whichever way you slice it.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Trollstormur on 14 Feb 2008, 16:39
Sad, sad state of things.

It's a lot easier to get a hold of a gun nowadays than it was way back when.

I'm sorry, but i'm going to have to call bullshit on that. Guns are more restricted right now than they ever were in america. You've never seen the old catalogs where you could buy a german submachinegun for seventeen dollars delivered straight to your home.



Also i'm not turning this into a gun control debate. I'll be deleting and/or editing any posts to this effect.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: pen on 14 Feb 2008, 16:50
Jesus christ.  My thoughts go to all those affected.   :-(
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: tommydski on 14 Feb 2008, 17:29
Also i'm not turning this into a gun control debate. I'll be deleting and/or editing any posts to this effect.

Including your own? On what grounds?

Are you saying that you will willingly censor posts on this subject, despite the undeniable relevancy?

That definitely needs some further explanation.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Lines on 14 Feb 2008, 17:40
Jesus christ.  My thoughts go to all those affected.   :-(

Ditto. I don't really get why these things happen, but if anyone knows anyone who was in that situation, I hope they are all okay.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Sox on 14 Feb 2008, 18:05
I'm sorry, but i'm going to have to call bullshit on that. Guns are more restricted right now than they ever were in america. You've never seen the old catalogs where you could buy a german submachinegun for seventeen dollars delivered straight to your home.
Also i'm not turning this into a gun control debate. I'll be deleting and/or editing any posts to this effect.

You already turned this into a gun control debate. It's highly relevant, and I'm sure that most people here are mature enough to handle it.
There are a LOT more guns available now than there were back then. This is alone means it is easier to obtain a gun, even if it's unregistered or stolen. The fact is that it is still far too easy to obtain a gun in the US. If I wanted to buy a gun where I lived, it would be impossible unless I wanted to own it illegally. Even then, the likelihood of me being able to obtain a gun is close to zero. Just about anybody with a clean record in the US can obtain a gun rather easily, and the supposed background checks aren't always carried out. The background checks  mean that you can't get a gun if you have a serious criminal offense on record, is this correct? None of these kids are going to have any serious offenses, and I have my doubts that a reliable mental background check is carried out when one wishes to purchase a gun in the United States. The fact is that lax gun control laws in the US are allowing these crimes to take place.
You live in a country where far too many people are completely paranoid and sleep with guns under their pillows. Obtaining a gun in the US is easy. You just have to want a gun.

My sympathies to anybody who was affected by this tragedy. My heart goes out to the victims.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: calenlass on 14 Feb 2008, 18:36
I believe he meant he didn't want to turn this into a debate over whether or not it should be this easy to obtain a gun in the US. This is the general debate that gets everyone in the states so fired up about it, not whether it is easy or is not. Some argue that it is their right as stated in the Second Amendment, and some argue that they are dangerous and pretty much only designed for killing and shouldn't be available to just any old Joe Citizen.

If you want to argue that it is easy, that is fine. If it gets into shoulds, that is where it crosses political debate lines and Jeph gets angry.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: RedLion on 14 Feb 2008, 18:41
NIU is only about 45 minutes from where I live, and I have a close friend who used to go there..they transferred to a different college last year, thankfully. Nonetheless, this hits pretty close to home for me.

Also--why would you even bring up the issue of a gun debate if you didn't want one to develop? If you didn't want it to happen, why did you make an issue of it?
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Nodaisho on 14 Feb 2008, 18:45
You see all those done during 1994-2004? All those were done during the strictest gun control times I know of, under the Assault Weapon Ban.

It really pisses me off that people do this, and it makes me feel a hell of a lot less safe at school than I would otherwise, they have a paper up on the billboard saying how they expect the students not to have weapons on campus, I can't help but think that all the people at most of those schools expected that as well. Not counting the Appalachian school of law shooting, that one I know for sure the gunman was held at gunpoint by two students until the police got there.

Some people are just fucked up in the head I suppose. I am very glad that at least in this one, nobody died but the shooter, knock on wood. I suppose it sounds cold of me, like I don't care about the shooter, but lets face it, this was a big way to commit suicide, a lot of people that go on shooting sprees end up suiciding, much more than escape or get killed by someone else, that I know of, at least. The one time I can think of in the past few years that the gunman got away was the two church shootings in Colorado last year, he suicided on the scene of the second one, after he had been shot by a woman with a concealed carry license who had asked the pastor to be allowed to carry a gun there.

Now, I know there will be people that disagree with me completely on this, but knowing that the college I plan on going to allows people to carry concealed weapons on campus makes me feel a lot better.

Interestingly, overall crime has gone down since the mid-eighties (I believe, somewhere around there), in the US at least, but we have had a lot more shootings since then.

I am trying to keep this within Troll's requirements, but it is a very thin line to trod.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: IronOxide on 14 Feb 2008, 19:24
While you are right that overall violent crime has decreased since I believe 1991, but there's conflicting reports on school violence.

The problem with the gun control legislation is that without teeth, the law does hardly anything. Unless there is some kind of program to get the guns that are already on the streets off the streets, but more importantly, it is a Catch 22 in the order of media coverage.

One of the problems is that people think that these actions will give them their fifteen minutes, and it does. Where it becomes an issue, is how do we pay reverence to those injured in these atrocities without making people think that they will become famous for carrying out the acts. Like how TV networks generally agree not to publicize suicide on air (there are exceptions, of course, but it's generally avoided), the fact of the matter is that as long as people hurt others, their actions will be publicized. The way to stop this is to make it not appear as even the faintest option to a desperate person, but we can't allow ourselves to be uninformed. Honestly, there is probably not an answer to this issue that pushes our society in a desirable direction.

I am constantly astonished by the evil that some people seem capable of carrying out, but that's not what we should make this about; we should should use this as a moment for us to reflect on how we can be better to people around us. Don't let this tragedy turn into a negative force.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: ALoveSupreme on 14 Feb 2008, 20:42
The whole thing is pretty insane.  More intimidating than anything else is all these damned newscaster helicopters overhead.  It makes it feel like a goddamn warzone, even though I know nothing is wrong.

It didn't even feel all that scary at the time to me, but I was working in a daycare on campus and we weren't told a thing.  We were bringing the kids outside and warned to get them back in.  Ridiculous.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: SonofZ3 on 14 Feb 2008, 20:53
I'm sorry, but i'm going to have to call bullshit on that. Guns are more restricted right now than they ever were in america. You've never seen the old catalogs where you could buy a german submachinegun for seventeen dollars delivered straight to your home.
Also i'm not turning this into a gun control debate. I'll be deleting and/or editing any posts to this effect.

You already turned this into a gun control debate. It's highly relevant, and I'm sure that most people here are mature enough to handle it.
There are a LOT more guns available now than there were back then. This is alone means it is easier to obtain a gun, even if it's unregistered or stolen. The fact is that it is still far too easy to obtain a gun in the US. If I wanted to buy a gun where I lived, it would be impossible unless I wanted to own it illegally. Even then, the likelihood of me being able to obtain a gun is close to zero. Just about anybody with a clean record in the US can obtain a gun rather easily, and the supposed background checks aren't always carried out. The background checks  mean that you can't get a gun if you have a serious criminal offense on record, is this correct? None of these kids are going to have any serious offenses, and I have my doubts that a reliable mental background check is carried out when one wishes to purchase a gun in the United States. The fact is that lax gun control laws in the US are allowing these crimes to take place.
You live in a country where far too many people are completely paranoid and sleep with guns under their pillows. Obtaining a gun in the US is easy. You just have to want a gun.

My sympathies to anybody who was affected by this tragedy. My heart goes out to the victims.

Kids don't buy guns legally. Our background checks and weapon laws work just fine. Kids take guns from their parents, or buy them off the street. Making it harder for law abiding citizens to get firearms doesn't change the ability for criminals to obtain illegal firearms.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: jhocking on 14 Feb 2008, 21:06
The thing you guys aren't taking into account: It's a lot easier to get a hold of a gun nowadays than it was way back when.

The nutcase factor hasn't gone up, just the population and the gun total.
Nobody said anything about the cause, just whether or not there was an alarming trend. That said, good point as far as causes, it just wasn't necessary for you to present it in an accusatory fashion.


[tangent]Does anyone else feel like this forum has gotten a lot more argumentative in the last week or so?[/tangent]
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Nodaisho on 14 Feb 2008, 21:09
Yes, I agree, it has gotten very argumentative.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: E. Spaceman on 14 Feb 2008, 21:10
[
Our background checks and weapon laws work just fine.

Having this on this thread is awesome.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Alex C on 14 Feb 2008, 21:18
There's been some really contentious issues floating around, yeah.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: scopedin on 14 Feb 2008, 21:18
hello all. i'm a huge fan of OC. now that that is out of the way, to my story.

i was in the room where is happened. i'm ok, but there are a lot of people who got hurt as you all know. please keep everyone in your prayers and thoughts, even if you arent religious.

i'm not going to read through the entire thread right now, but thanks to everyone who offers their prayers and everything. it means a lot to the people at NIU.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: est on 14 Feb 2008, 21:26
I feel it's at least partially about fame/infamy.  The people that do this nowdays aren't just trying to kill a bunch of people, they are trying to get a message out.  What that message is depends on the person.  Some feel wronged and feel that they are making a statement against a society that hurt them.  Others just want to get famous/infamous.

In my opinion we'll only see more and more people doing stupid shit like this and other, less-violent "self-marketing" methods as time goes on.  Media coverage is global and it's getting harder and harder for people to "make a difference" or make their mark on the world.  The public attention-span is getting shorter and shorter and there will always be attention-whores doing more and more outlandish things to get their 15 mins of fame.

Edit: Hi Scopedin.  I'm glad to hear that you are ok.  Hope everyone who's been hurt can recover.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Gemmwah on 14 Feb 2008, 23:22
Quote
Notre Dame Elementary shooting    Portsmouth, Ohio, United States    February 7, 2008
Louisiana Technical College shooting    Baton Rouge, LA, United States    February 8, 2008
Mitchell High School shooting    Memphis, TN, United States    February 11, 2008
E.O. Green Junior High School shooting    Oxnard, CA, United States    February 12, 2008
McNair High School shooting    Atlanta, GA, United States    February 12, 2008   
Northern Illinois University shooting    DeKalb, Illinois, United States    February 14, 2008

Looking over that shit I posted... Notice anything a bit strange? That's almost a shoot-out every other day this month. I'm wondering if this is really true.

I don't think this is bullshit, i was watching CNN and the newscasters repeatedly said about there being several shootings this week alone.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: BobJoeJim on 15 Feb 2008, 00:36
hello all. i'm a huge fan of OC. now that that is out of the way, to my story.

i was in the room where is happened. i'm ok, but there are a lot of people who got hurt as you all know. please keep everyone in your prayers and thoughts, even if you arent religious.

i'm not going to read through the entire thread right now, but thanks to everyone who offers their prayers and everything. it means a lot to the people at NIU.

Wow... for the first time in my life I actually have no desire at all to be a sarcastic jackass.  I genuinely do wish you and everyone else who had the misfortune to be involved in this tragedy the absolute best.  I'm glad you're okay, please know my thoughts are with you.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: David_Dovey on 15 Feb 2008, 01:14
[tangent]Does anyone else feel like this forum has gotten a lot more argumentative in the last week or so?[/tangent]

How dare we have civil, on-topic discussions about relevant and important subjects! Why, anybody would think this was a discussion forum, the way we act.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Sox on 15 Feb 2008, 04:32
Kids don't buy guns legally. Our background checks and weapon laws work just fine. Kids take guns from their parents, or buy them off the street. Making it harder for law abiding citizens to get firearms doesn't change the ability for criminals to obtain illegal firearms.

I don't know how old you have to be to own a gun over there, but this was a university shooting. Perhaps we have different opinions of what it means to be a 'kid'? I use the 'cowboy' definition of the word, where everybody who isn't as old as John Wayne is referred to as 'kid'. Therefore, I am a kid. You are a kid. However, I am legally old enough to own a gun. Are you?

I'm going to make a point of saying this again. Where I live, gun control laws are so strict, and such action is taken to ensure those laws are being followed, that it would be almost impossible for me to acquire a gun, legally or illegally. As a result of this, I have never seen a real gun outside of a museum unless I have left the country. I have certainly known enough people over the years who are unstable enough that had they owned a gun, they'd almost certainly have used them. I'd rather not get into specifics, but to sum things up, I've known people whose attitude towards another person/persons has been something to the effect of 'I would shoot the crap out of you, if only owning a gun in this country wasn't so insanely difficult!'. Unfortunately, these people are still walking the street and abusing people, but on a positive note, while they have stabbed people, they haven't been able to shoot anybody. I do, however, know somebody who used a crossbow in an assault.

Saying that strict gun control laws don't work is ridiculous. A dangerous person is going to find it just as difficult, if not more difficult, to acquire a gun as you or I. The country I live is evidence enough of this. If you're so afraid of being shot when gun control is strict, why not own an illegal gun? Surely, if mentally unstable or dangerous people are capable of obtaining one, you are just as capable? Are you worried about breaking the law?

The USA's gun control laws are not effective at preventing gun related crime. The figures show this. The UK's gun control laws seem rather effective to me, I've seen a lot of people not get shot.
I'll be honest, I am biased. Any country that so many laws in place that make it legal to kill a man, any man, in my opinion, is barbaric.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: valley_parade on 15 Feb 2008, 05:10
Quote
Simon's Rock College of Bard shooting    Great Barrington, Massachusetts, United States    December 14, 1992

One would think I'd have some memory of this, being so local. Huh.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: 0bsessions on 15 Feb 2008, 06:17
On the other hand, Shane, you were like four or five.

That said, good point as far as causes, it just wasn't necessary for you to present it in an accusatory fashion.

(http://www.gameaxis.com/img/blog/1913/Image/phoenix_wright_news.jpg)
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: jhocking on 15 Feb 2008, 06:27
Also i'm not turning this into a gun control debate. I'll be deleting and/or editing any posts to this effect.
Including your own? On what grounds?

Are you saying that you will willingly censor posts on this subject, despite the undeniable relevancy?

That definitely needs some further explanation.
Although I agree that trollstormur was being hypocritical and setting a bad example, the overall point is that this thread really should be about expressing grief and sympathy, not taking advantage of the tragedy in order to grandstand about pet issues.

That said, my condolences to the people affected.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Sox on 15 Feb 2008, 06:41
I believe the point in a discussion forum is to discuss these issues when they arise. It's up to the mods whether or not we should split this into two separate threads, one for sympathies and the other for discussion of gun control laws, but what would that accomplish, besides making the discussion harder to follow?
I have my doubts that anybody is 'taking advantage' of this thread in order to "grandstand about pet issues". This is a deeply affecting topic and people are going to have very strong opinions on the matter, especially those of us who have been affected personally. While grief and sympathy were the reason this thread was started, the topic of gun control was always inevitably going to be called into question, and given the circumstances, I don't think anybody has the right to put a censor on that discussion. If a person lost somebody in this horrible incident, and posts an angry rant about guns in this thread, would you honestly tell them to put a lid on it? Why should anybody else be treated any differently?
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: KharBevNor on 15 Feb 2008, 07:36
The USA's gun control laws are not effective at preventing gun related crime. The figures show this. The UK's gun control laws seem rather effective to me, I've seen a lot of people not get shot.
I'll be honest, I am biased. Any country that so many laws in place that make it legal to kill a man, any man, in my opinion, is barbaric.

It's not THAT hard to get hold of a gun in this country, it's just expensive, dangerous and involves a lot more crimes.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: 0bsessions on 15 Feb 2008, 08:03
In other words, much harder than here. Legal sale of guns allots for more production and importing of guns which allows for them to go missing and be sold illegally much easier. I'm mostly working on assumption here, but from experience I know it's not all that hard. I know some pretty batshit loco guys that own guns. Hell, the guy who let me try out his .357 comes from a pretty frightening family.

Edit:

Some new info on the shooting. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23171567?GT1=10856)

Quote
"At least some of the weapons were purchased legally less than a week ago, on Feb. 9, authorities said."
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Alex C on 15 Feb 2008, 08:52
Yeah, I'm sorry my fellow gun owners, but I'll never buy the idea that our gun control laws here in the US are very effective. The only argument you can really make at all is that owning a gun doesn't make you a violent person in and of itself, and that's pretty irrelevant because the primary concern is that guns increase the severity of violent incidents, not the frequency. I generally think gun control in the USA is a losing battle, but not because of flaws with gun control in general, but simply as a result of our culture and the sheer prevalence of guns. I've known plenty of gun control opponents who continually point out that the short term benefits of stronger gun control laws are minimal at best, but they also conveniently overlook the fact that there are so many guns in the USA that even most gun control advocates accept that the benefit will be in the long term, not the short term. Quite simply, even if we enacted laws similar to the UK this very day it'd take a long time to see a real pay off simply due to how many firearms are already in circulation in unofficial channels. People want a quick fix and it simply isn't going to happen, and our political culture has a notoriously short attention span.  :|
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: 0bsessions on 15 Feb 2008, 09:07
The thing I'm more worried about is the slippery slope that could result. In order to get any kind of serious gun control in this country, we'd have to practically outright repeal a part of the bill of rights. I don't like the idea of the nation's lax gun control, but I like the idea of fucking with the rest of the Bill of Rights even less.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Lines on 15 Feb 2008, 09:40
I think the major thing about the 2nd amendment is that it was written when people were being forced to give up arms because they were in the middle of a war. They wanted the right to defend their homes and the necessary weapons to do so. This was also made during a time when there was virtually NO home security. Now it isn't like this BUT some people feel safer with the option of having a gun. I saw on the news a while back, some lady with pretty good security have her home almost invaded by 3 guys, but luckily they couldn't kick down the door and were scared off. But as shown by the interview, they were very lucky they didn't get in, because the lady had an automatic rifle under her bed, which she had grabbed as soon as she heard them outside. She also had a few handguns around the place as well and would have easily defended herself if they had actually gotten in.

Back to the getting a gun bit - I imagine it'd be pretty easy. Like someone said before, kids will borrow them from their parents, buy them off the street, buy them off the internet, etc. It is very easy to get a gun, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the legal way, which is to get a permit and then buy one in a shop when your permit and background check clear.

That said and trying to stay within Troll's rules, I don't like guns, but if people want them for whatever reason that is LEGAL, then so be it. (This includes going to the range, hunting, home defense, etc, all of which are reasons some people I know own guns.) What needs to happen is getting guns off the street that don't belong there, but we've been dealing with this for how long now and I don't really see this happening any time soon. But even then, it doesn't stop events like this happening, because some people are messed up and they have an easy way to get things they shouldn't have.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Gemmwah on 15 Feb 2008, 10:19
Hey Guys, guess which Church group are planning on picketing the funerals!

I don't think I even need to give any hints.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: 0bsessions on 15 Feb 2008, 10:24
On what grounds?! Going to fucking college?! That doesn't make sense with their M.O. of picketing soldiers and homosexuals. As hard and moronic as it is to find grounds to protest those, I can't come up with a feasible rationale for protesting someone for being shot while attending a class.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Gemmwah on 15 Feb 2008, 10:33
I don't know what they finally decided that their stupid reason would be, because I can't access the PDF flyer, but I'm shocked and appauled about it. Honestly, I didn't used to hate anyone, but these people create such an anger within me that the bile rises in the back of my throat. What they do is so wrong, immoral and completely un-Christian that I don't understand how they can even claim themselves as such.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Sox on 15 Feb 2008, 10:33
The WBC has always done more harm to their 'cause' than good, and decisions like this will only serve to harm them further. The more and more ridiculous their pickets become, the more they damage themselves, and eventually legal intervention will put them in their rightful place. They'll never give up their 'cause', but they can certainly lose a lot of money through lawsuits, and that will surely make them think twice about their picketing techniques.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: 0bsessions on 15 Feb 2008, 10:37
A coworker looked it up. It's because God hates Illinois.

Seriously, God, apparently, hates Illionois. That's it.

I am pretty sure that, out of every person in America, Fred Phelps is the one person where we could get everyone else in the nation together and about 98% of us would agree to drop a rock on his head and be done with it and then just never speak of it again.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: ruyi on 15 Feb 2008, 10:49
actually it's once again about hating fags and condemning america as a whole. doesn't seem to have anything to do with the school or the shooting itself. (which makes it even more disgusting, i think.) if you're interested, the source is here (http://www.godhatesfags.com/written/fliers/20080214_northern-illinois-university-shooter.pdf).
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: KharBevNor on 15 Feb 2008, 10:59
Phelps is actually seriously mentally ill. It's all quite sad really.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: jhocking on 15 Feb 2008, 11:01
A coworker looked it up. It's because God hates Illinois.

Seriously, God, apparently, hates Illionois. That's it.
It's because I live here.

Seriously though, link plz, I wanna see this!

ADDITION: Oh wait, does it have something to do with Obama being from here?
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: KharBevNor on 15 Feb 2008, 11:03
Can't have no faggot loving niggers running the godless USA, Jhocking.

But he hates you more.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Sox on 15 Feb 2008, 11:07
Phelps is actually seriously mentally ill. It's all quite sad really.

This could be said about a lot of people. The tragic part is that he has spent his life convincing more or less his entire family that his delusions are real, and as a result they too are pretty messed up.
We have a censor on the word *nig*ger*?
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: KharBevNor on 15 Feb 2008, 11:15
Yeah, forgot about that. The workaround on the filters doesn't really work anymore, because I can't work out what colour this text is. nigger is the closest I can get.

EDIT: OMG THAT ONE WORKED! WOO!
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: 0bsessions on 15 Feb 2008, 11:16
Man, my sister is seriously mentally ill and she doesn't spout of the kind of bullshit rhetoric Phelps does.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: soapbox-paiga on 15 Feb 2008, 11:20
Whatever. Phelps is one of those few people where I hate him so much I've come through the other side. Now, I just pity him. It's just pathetic.

This'll make the second time he's protested something I've been indirectly/directly involved with. First was when our high school did the Laramie Project... Seriously, we were a small town Central Illinoisan university h.s. Does he just type the words "gay" and/or "homosexual" + "event" into google and make a bulleted list of the results? Does he twiddle his thumbs in the meantime? If I bought him some crossword puzzles, would he leave the world the fuck alone?
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: 0bsessions on 15 Feb 2008, 11:23
God hates crosswords. Send him some Sudoku.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: soapbox-paiga on 15 Feb 2008, 11:28
But there's no way to make a homophobic sudoku.

Unless...
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Lines on 15 Feb 2008, 12:28
I seriously want to chop open Phelp's chest to see if he has a heart and then open his skull and see if he has a brain, because obviously he has neither and I want his shit to stop.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Dissy on 15 Feb 2008, 13:57
So, The Associated press story says "seven dead including the gunman[...]"  You know what?  Fuck the gunman.  Seriously.  They did the same shit with the V.Tech shootings.  The gunmen shouldn;t be grouped in with their victims.  The AP should read "Six victims are now dead.  The assfuck, who killed them, committed suicide/was killed by the police (depending on the situation)."

This has really shaken me up.  Right after the V.Tech shooting, some assfuck kid sent an email out from my sister's high school saying he was going to emulate the shootings.  The assfuck has also made several threats to my sister saying that he will kill her and her family, he has also attacked my little brother as well.  And Guess What:  The school kicked the kid out and now has let him back in this semester.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Lines on 15 Feb 2008, 14:13
WTF. I sincerely hope nothing happens to your family.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Sox on 15 Feb 2008, 14:36
Dissy, I understand you're upset, but in that first paragraph, you're getting riled up over nothing. It's not like they said "seven victims, including the attacker". They merely stated "seven dead, including the gunman".
The thing about threats against your family is something that should be protested. They can't ignore you if death threats have been made. Write them until they fix this.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Dissy on 15 Feb 2008, 15:09
Well, to me
"seven victims, including the attacker"
is the same as
Quote
"seven dead, including the gunman"


I feel that is an insult to the murdered.  I mean we don't count, to my knowledge at least, suicide bombers in the list of causulties, why should we count the loons and nuts who go on a killing rampage.


They won't do anything about the threats.  We already tried it.  Especially since the kid is smart enough to say it to my sister when no one else is around.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: KharBevNor on 15 Feb 2008, 16:14
No, "Seven dead, including the shooter" is simply correct. There aren't any degrees of dead. The dead are dead and, as Voltaire says, to the dead we owe only the truth.

Besides which, I personally could argue about the shooters not being victims, but you obviously have no capacity for rational detachment, for whatever reason, so I won't.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: RedLion on 15 Feb 2008, 16:27
I mean we don't count, to my knowledge at least, suicide bombers in the list of causulties,

No, they oftentimes do, though not always. If a bunch of people die in a suicide attack, the bomber is usually included as one of the dead. If one or two are killed, the bomber is usually left out.

Regarding the issue of the 2nd Amendment--the thing is, it's prefaced by the phrase a well-regulated militia, it's not just "EVERYONE GETS GUNS, YEE-HAW!!" Let's also remember that at the time, "arms" meant muskets that had a rate of fire of--at best--3 shots per minute. I sincerely doubt that the writers of that amendment would condone the notion of people being able to walk into a store and buy an AK-47.

Also, it really bugs me when conservative groups, seeking to look anywhere else to put the blame than on the readiness of guns, point at videogames and movies. Those things don't change a person to the degree where they one day wake up and decide they want to go shoot some of their peers. It probably is a bit desensitizing, but not to a dehumanizing degree. Even the most hardened FPS player or Horror fan can still be disgusted by high levels of gore and violence in some things, showing that aversion towards brutality can't just be winnowed out of a personality unless there's something more serious deep down inside that person.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: calenlass on 15 Feb 2008, 21:11
RedLion, whether your interpretation of the second amendment and the term "militia" is right or not, it is the interpretation of it that tends to divide the USA on the issue of gun control. So while you may be right about it, please don't declare it as fact because it is still an interpretation, and as such someone might take offense to it and start a flame war. (That is the politics Jeph wants us to avoid.)
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: RedLion on 15 Feb 2008, 21:29
Oh I wasn't trying to state it as fact--that's why I said "I sincerely doubt," not "I totally and incontrovertibly know."
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: calenlass on 16 Feb 2008, 12:01
it's prefaced by the phrase a well-regulated militia, it's not just "EVERYONE GETS GUNS, YEE-HAW!!" Let's also remember that at the time, "arms" meant muskets that had a rate of fire of--at best--3 shots per minute.

(This is what I meant. Interpreting contemporary context for the Constitution is never easy and highly disputed and everyone has their own skewed opinion.)
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: ALoveSupreme on 16 Feb 2008, 13:25
WBC is coming because NIU has an LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender) Organization on our campus that is acknowledged by the school.

And I don't really see where your anger is stemming from with the shooter, aside from your unfortunate personal story that in the end just results in a bias.  This was a good kid that a few of my friends knew from his time here at NIU in 2004.  He was just a fucked up dude who for whatever reason stopped taking his meds.  I dunno, I understand people being upset, but you don't have to be a dick.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Jposh on 16 Feb 2008, 16:39
Fucking trend hoppers.

It wasn't cool the first time, guy!

I thought the same thing!

This guy is just a dumb trend hopper.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Blue Kitty on 16 Feb 2008, 19:56
it wasn't funny the first time

oh, and Jack Thompson (http://kotaku.com/357294/jt-on-the-niu-shooting-+-the-video)
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: RedLion on 17 Feb 2008, 01:33
That man can go and die. Any time. Really.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: KharBevNor on 17 Feb 2008, 01:53
So sociology grad students can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality?

What else is new.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: jhocking on 17 Feb 2008, 07:22
The kotaku commentary was right on about the two most telling bits in the JT interview: the very beginning where Thompson blatantly ignored the interviewer's question in order to start up on his anti-videogame rant, and the very end where the interviewer pretty much dismissed his opinions.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Patrick on 17 Feb 2008, 09:27
Let the record show, I have played every Grand Theft Auto game that has ever been produced (with the only exception being "Stories From Vice City"). I have been through periods of extreme mental instability (such as eating disorders in elementary school and suicidal thoughts my freshman year). I have gone through abuse, both physical and psychological, and at one point I was so horribly mistreated at school that I considered dropping out.

All that has happened and I have never once shot up a fucking school. Jack Thompson can shut his filthy goddamn mouth and let me play CounterStrike whenever I bloody want.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: Cire27 on 17 Feb 2008, 17:53
Just make sure you don't play CounterStrikeHalfLife.
Title: Re: North Illinois University Shooting
Post by: ruyi on 18 Feb 2008, 21:44
interview with the shooter's girlfriend (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/17/shooter.girlfriend/?iref=mpstoryview).

interesting.