THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)
Fun Stuff => CHATTER => Topic started by: Lines on 15 Feb 2008, 20:11
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If you don't know what Bodies is, look here first (http://www.bodiestheexhibition.com/) and then look here (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07172/795948-115.stm).
Now before I found out where the bodies were coming from, I didn't want to see it because dead things gross me out. I mean, taxidermy is freaky enough, but plasticized bodies without skin, etc. is CREEPY. And then I found out where the bodies came from and the possible causes of death of the people who are now on exhibit and frankly, I'm very disturbed. It's unethical. There is a tour that is German based that is competing with this particular exhibit where the bodies were donated with permission of the deceased which I have no problem with, but taking unclaimed bodies that were most likely executed political prisoners is just wrong.
Has anyone seen either exhibit? There is currently one up in the Natural History Museum here and I know people who have both seen it and who protest it like I do.
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Seen it, and had a blast that day. Didn't know there was some controversy about it.
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Is it bad that I am not bothered by how they procured their bodies? Frankly I don't care, so long as they didn't kill anyone for it, and I just want to see an exhibit of them, as I did a paper on plastination for one of my classes this semester. And it turns out that the "Our Bodies" exhibit will be in San Antonio while I am there over spring break, so I hope I can find someone that will go with me.
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Well that's the thing, it's entirely possible that these people were killed, maybe not for the express purpose of using their bodies in this exhibition, but China has a record of executing people, particularly those who are members of Falun Gong and other spiritual or political groups the Chinese government doesn't like, and harvesting their organs for transplants. So it's not out of the question that the cadavers in this exhibit have been murdered.
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hmmmm
Wow. I wasn't aware of exhibits like this. I think I'd be interested in seeing one.
as for the consent issue. One one hand.... I agree willingly donated bodies would be preferable.... on the other... if history and consent were always the primary concern, we'd never have access to examples of mummification and the sort.
Obviously if there's a concern these bodies are from victums of murder it shouldn't be dismissed lightly, but...
well I sit on the fence on this one.
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Yeah, I wouldn't go to that one then. I've seen the German based exhibit, which was OK, I guess. I'm neither fascinated by such things or easily creeped out, but heading up to the Twin Cities with friends for an exhibit beat the hell out of sitting on the couch, even if it was for something I wasn't particularly interested in. I'm completely fine with people getting to choose what they want to be done with their bodies, but that doesn't really have any bearing on people possibly being murdered and having their bodies put on display.
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They had something similar here in Florida. I didn't go.
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We've had an exhibit like that here for awhile. Someone promised me they'd take me but haven't yet. It leaves on March 2nd, so I am hoping to go soon.
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The original "Body World" exhibit was controversial enough, (we had a rather long debate about it back in college) but all these new "Bodies" exhibits are taking the concept much farther, which is just unnecessary. I agree with the point made in the second article that it is a 'cheapening' of human life. A single body, donated with consent by the original owner, is curious enough, but having dozens of bodies on display of questionable origins is something that should be fazing us just a little more than it seems to be.
People like Arnie Geller are, I believe, contributing to the desensitisation of society, and whatever the reasons for doing so, that is a very dangerous direction for us to be heading in.
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All I know is that Gunter von Hagen is a creepy motherfucker.
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something that should be fazing us
i am sorry for the pedantry, i do this only because you are such a good poster. so very good! i just want you to be the best!
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(http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38582000/jpg/_38582717_hagens.jpg)
What are you talking about, khar?
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pedantry, compliment
Thank you Ruyi! It was appreciated.
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I agree with the point made in the second article that it is a 'cheapening' of human life.
I don't agree with this. I think by seeing all the inside bits, and learning how the body works is great, and makes people actually appreciate their bodies more.
However.....
A single body, donated with consent by the original owner, is curious enough, but having dozens of bodies on display of questionable origins is something that should be fazing us just a little more than it seems to be.
I do agree with this. As far as I know, the bodies on display in St. Louis were donated by the owners. Doing this to bodies that were unclaimed/taken without consent/etc is just wrong.
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Okay folks get ready for some controversy:
Why should it really matter where the bodies are from and if the previous owner consented to be plasticized as long as the person weren't specifically killed for that purpose? What I'm trying to say is that the only reason I can think of that you wouldn't want that done to your body would be some religious notion of it having some connection to the afterlife. Either that or that you have some problem dealing with your own inescapable death and want to leave as much of yourself behind as possible.
I mean there isn't any particurlarly big risk of someone going up to a body at these exhibits and going "OMIGOSH! That's my Georgie's lung!" and as far as I can tell there's no identifying the bodies so there really isn't any damage being done to the survivors other than the lack of body to mourn over.
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It's pretty rude, especially if the person was religious, if family members wanted to carry out rituals or just have a plain funeral, if you didn't want your insides to be seen by millions of people, etc. I think, within reason, the requests of the deceased or their family should be honoured.
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I agree with öde. I think what you do with bodies is more or less ethically neutral, and I don't particularly care what happens to the corpse when someone dies, but not everyone feels that way, and my consideration for those people's feelings is enough to make respectful measures a worthy endeavor. Now, if someone managed to cook up some hypothetical scenario in which exhuming corpses and other rather ghoulish actions would result in saving lives, I'm afraid I'd favor the needs of the living over the rights of the dead, but a plasticizing exhibit doesn't qualify for that; a better argument could perhaps be made for those physicians and thinkers who once broke the law in the past in order to learn about anatomy in the name of science and medicine, but even then, I am much, much happier with our current system in which people can choose to donate their bodies to science rather than just declaring open season on the deceased (especially since yes, people have been murdered just to be used as a subject, and surely nobody's okay with that). I should probably look into setting it up so my body's donated to science when the inevitable occurs sometime. If nothing else I'm kind of curious how those considerations jibe with being designated as an organ donor (which I already am).
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I think you're missing my point, the bodies were unclaimed or unidentified. The company that arranged the show said that they took great measure to locate any relatives. Basically no living person is directly affected by this.
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pedantry, compliment
Thank you Ruyi! It was appreciated.
(It is spelled "phasing".)
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(no really, fazing! faze (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faze) vs. phase (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/phase))
anyways, body worlds does not use any bodies that are not from willing donors. however, the success of body worlds has caused a number of competing shows to spring up, and some of them may be using the bodies of chinese prisoners. another interesting issue: gunther von hagens is suing some of these competitors, but can this sort of thing really be copyrighted? it's art in some sense, i suppose, but the major part of the artistry comes from displaying the natural beauty of the human anatomy.
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SET FAZERZ ON STUNNED
(http://ken_ashford.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/kirk_phaser_2.jpg)
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It's pretty rude, especially if the person was religious, if family members wanted to carry out rituals or just have a plain funeral, if you didn't want your insides to be seen by millions of people, etc. I think, within reason, the requests of the deceased or their family should be honoured.
This is how I feel. The bodies they were taking from China were "unclaimed", which can mean several things (no one knew them, no one knew they were dead, no one wanted to be associated them for fear of death, etc etc) and we don't know what the person's wishes were concerning their death. The ones that donate their bodies to science, however, I am fine with. (I wouldn't see them, though, because looking at organs makes me nauseous. I found this out when I was looking at a medical book to get an anatomically correct heart for a painting. :-P)
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(no really, fazing! faze (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faze) vs. phase (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/phase))
Now I am torn between being pissed off because I totally did not know that this was an allowable homonym and being relieved that at least one of the thousand definitions of "phase" has been properly re-appropriated elsewhere.
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I saw the original Körperwelten a few years ago. It was pretty good.
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SET FAZERZ ON STUNNED
DON'T FAZE ME BRO
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(http://www.bountee.com/members/115338/115339/118165/cachedimages/scale250375svgdesign_118165.png)
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I'm not really sure if I like these sorts of exhibits, mainly because it seems to me to be the ultimate form of voyeurism. Aside from the fact I think it's seriously ghoulish the whole "unclaimed bodies" from a country that just happens to do nasty things to political prisoners and selling their organs. If there was evidence that the people whose corpses were used were quite willing for that to happen, I'd have no problem.
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Honestly, the exhibits look completely amazing and educational. I can't quite care too terribly much about the origins, though I have to admit I never wondered where the bodies came from. Where can I sign up to have my body part of one of these if I die?
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That exhibit was around here about three years ago.
I really really really wanted to go then.
I'm going to have to beg to go when it hits San Diego for my birthday.
...is it sad that I want to see preserved human remains for my twenty-first birthday?
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I didn't read the thread nor the articles, but the first thing that came to mind was a photothread battle between Lunchy, Manda, and Katie.
Any objections?
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The exhibit is really welll done. It came through Vancouver last year, and the depth of detail that you are able to see the organs and body systems in is fascinating. It was really educational, and very well displayed. I'm rather certain all the bodies in the Body Worlds exhibit were agreed to be donated before death, so that didn't phase me much, but I'm unsure about immitators. It did start to feel a tad creepy, looking at some of the plastinates in more artistic forms, especially one that involved a woman holding her own heart.
But, aside from a few slight shudders, I really enjoyed it. Highly recommend going, if you're at all interested in the science of the human body. I went with my family, and didn't get to look around and read as much of the information as I would have liked, so be warned that if you want all the details, it takes a fair while.
EDIT: Apparently the BODIES exhibit that Linds started the topic about is one of the copies of the original Body Worlds. I'm not sure how the dobies for this exhibit were taken, and it may have been more shady.
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Yeah, the show called Bodies is a copy of Body World. I heard about Body World a few years ago when some people I knew were in Chicago and saw it. This one sounds more artistic, as I heard about there being one of a horse and a rider. This show sounds pretty awesome and there's no suspicion as to where the bodies were obtained from. (I still wouldn't be able to see it though, as I get the jibblies just from seeing photos of the exhibit.)
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The horse and rider is a Body Worlds plastinate, unless they copied the configuration of the bodies as well as the idea for the Bodies exhibit.
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I was refering to Body Worlds and I doubt Bodies made a copy, as most of their exhibit doesn't involve positions like that.
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So I discovered at least one other person on my spring break trip that would be interested in going to see the exhibit at the Witte Museum. I am quite excited.
Though she also would like to go see The Phantom of the Opera, so I have to decide between the two.
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If that's a live musical you're talking about, the choice should be obvious! MUUUUUUSIIIICAAAAAAAAAALLLLL.
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I think we should be able to do both, but I don't know if we'll be able to do the musical because I think there will be a required meeting that night.
We shall see.
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There are now at least five imitations of the original "Body Worlds" exhibitions. That's five exhibitions, that are not "Bodies" that obtained their bodies from more reputable sources.
Surely, if the other five exhibitions were able to obtain bodies from volunteers and/or donations, the bodies used in "Bodies" could just as easily have come from similar, reputable locations? I have to draw the conclusion that they were simply the cheapest bodies available. I am usually in favour of spending as little money as possible, but these bodies belonged to real people. If you buy dead bodies from questionable sources for the sake of saving money, people are going to question your morality and your motive.
Given the number of copy cats and the availability of bodies from reputable sources, I have to draw the conclusion that people like Arnie Geller are in this entirely for monetary gain.
I'm rather uncomfortable with the idea of dead bodies on display like this in such a manner. However, I appreciate that Gunther Von Hagens is a genuine eccentric and do not doubt his sincerity when he says that the Body Worlds are for educational purposes. Arnie Geller, however, I believe is not such a person, due the to publicity he strives for and the business surrounding the origin of the bodies used. I have to assume that the sole motivation for "Bodies" is profit. I have no interest in supporting people that operate like that.
Outside of a few interviews where the man tries to defend the exhibition, I haven't been able to find anything to suggest otherwise. While I feel uncomfortable with the idea of bodies on display, I would probably pay to see Body Worlds due to my morbid curiousity. I would not, however, support Bodies, where the bodies on display are potentially murder victims.
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embryos and fetuses from 9 to 32 weeks gestation, all plasticized.
I APPROVE OF THIS THREAD.
:-D
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I think it is rad. Being able to learn from unclaimed bodies is a pretty cool thing. We don't have to know what happened to these people when they were alive, because a body is just a shell. Once you die there is nothing left but an empty shelll, and if it can be used for educational purposes such as this, then so be it.
I don't want to think about what might happen to my body when I die, because I am rather attatched to it right now. But in all reality, once I die I won't have much say in the matter, and I doubt it will have an effect on me during whatever it is that happens when you die :)
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i saw body world when it came through boston, and i thought it was incredible. very beautiful, and educational. as for the ethics: people were protesting the original work, before any controversy with how bodies were procured, so i really think people are gonna be pissed about it no matter what, some people just arent down with displaying dead bodies. personally i think as long as they arent killing people for their bodies then whatever. what else were those dead bodies gonna do?
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Rot.
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That bitchass earthworm can fuck off and move to Florida, there's plenty of people getting buried down there.
LOL, I MADE A JOKE ABOUT OLD PEOPLE.
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LOL I laughed at your joke about old people.
I wanna know how they got the unborn babies, did they camp the abortion clinic all liek,"GEIF BABIEZ PLZ!!" because if so I want that job.
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I'm trying to piece together the humour in that and am failing.
If you actually want your question answered though, I would imagine that they are miscarriages and from mothers who died during pregnancy.
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I thought aborted babies would be more abundant.
As for the joke on old people, it is that old people move to Florida and then they die usually sooner than young people.
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I'd imagine that in some cases, abortion the normal way isn't possible, so they'd have to do it in a way similar to a C section. That'd eliminate the need to cut apart the fetus and take it out vaginally, bit by bit like they normally do.
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Or the mother died causing the baby to die and now you can see the baby all in one piece in a museum.
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Or the stork flew into a window.
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(http://file041a.bebo.com/9/large/2008/02/12/18/2469477863a6862829642l.jpg)
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I thought aborted babies would be more abundant.
As for the joke on old people, it is that old people move to Florida and then they die usually sooner than young people.
I was more reffering to that terrible bit of your post about abortion. "GEIF BABIEZ PLZ"? Sorry, but you come across as a dick.
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That picture ledhendrix posted is kindof amusing to me. They're all standing up and they kindof look like toy skeletons, or model ones, or whatever.
The one right above his thumb looks like an alien.
Edit: I stand corrected, thanks
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(That isn't a picture of him)
...
(Interesting picture though. I've never seen such tiny human skeletons)
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Babies really do have freaking huge heads.
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Yeah its not me its my friend (who now has a massive ginger afro), we were at an exhibit at the Glasgow uni open day. There were loads of things like that, pickled penises, pickled Siamese twins, pickled fetuses pretty much pickled everything. It was a pretty awesome exhibit.
Those are fetus skeletons taken from every month of development.
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Man I've heard of pickled artichoke hearts, pickled cucumbers (lolduh), pickled asparagus (tasty!) pickled tomatoes, and pickled peppers, but PENISES?
I kindof want pics.
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Sorry no pictures of penis. I have torso and dead baby though.
(http://file041a.bebo.com/9/large/2008/02/12/18/2469477863a6862829863l.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3213/2312430039_ea414ee812.jpg?v=1204748875)
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Your friend kinda looks like this guy I used to date. Creepy! :-D
Also, I went to Body Worlds. It was all kinds of awesome
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(no really, fazing! faze (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faze) vs. phase (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/phase))
Now I am torn between being pissed off because I totally did not know that this was an allowable homonym and being relieved that at least one of the thousand definitions of "phase" has been properly re-appropriated elsewhere.
"faze" and "phase" have completely different etymologies.
don't hit me!
OT:
I saw "Body Worlds" in London in '02 or '03. It was amazing. I don't think there's a risk of "desensitization" from viewing anatomy. I mean, the goal of a model is to approach reality, is it not? It's not as if we build in syntheticity (syntheticness?) into models on purpose. Unfortunately, I couldn't eat meat for two weeks afterward.
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Thats him before the fro. The fro has been taken taken to a whole new level of awesomeness now.
(http://file045a.bebo.com/5/large/2008/02/03/19/5166635a6788855440l.jpg)
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"Fro Exhibit" should be the new name for this thread.