THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)
Fun Stuff => CHATTER => Topic started by: Tarvok on 17 Feb 2008, 21:57
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Original thread can be found here (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,19041.msg607723.html#msg607723). The topic is diverging significantly from the comic topic, so I figured I'd start a new thread.
Too late, you got yourself in trouble. Not that I want to turn this forum into a lesson in women's studies, but as a Smith student, it seems to be my lot in life.
Women have practically no power, in the bedroom or elsewhere. A woman saying no often doesn't even slow a man down.
Got any reliable statistics for that?
I am not implying that all men are rapists,
Just most of them, enough, that men "often" do not slow down for a "no."
but there are many situations in America today where women have no control over their bodies.
What sorts of situations?
Plus, a man can so no, too, they just often want sex plenty.
In economics, with respect to men wanting sex from women, this is what's called a "sellers' market." For women who want sex from men, it's a "buyers' market." If this were economics, the analogy would be backwards with regard to the power dynamic you describe.
subverted role we have in society yestoday.
Fixed. Given that politics is generally at least a generation behind the social trend, and that it is very likely we will have a woman for a president by 2009, I'd say that problem has been pretty well dealt with by now.
Then again, I am a Californian, and it's entirely possible my experience is atypical for the remainder of the United States.
Oh, and I agree that the image of men in the media is really degrading as well, don't get me wrong.
At first, it was funny. Now, it's annoying to the point where I change the station when I hear one of those stupid commercials. It's just really getting old.
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Looking at this person's posts, absolutely none of them are in this forum. I have my doubts he/she/it will see this.
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Plus, the whole conversation hits me as being akin to tapdancing in a minefield. Not that I mind.
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And I thought we were getting bad down here...
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tl;dr
Someone summon the summarizer plx
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As far as I can tell, for the tl;dr folks, thinly veiled misandry. Perhaps there was something else, that I missed due to it being taken out of context, and if so, I apologize. Or, perhaps the poster's words came out the wrong way, it is very easy to be misunderstood when limited to text.
I have no problems with feminism, at least until it is taken to positive discrimination, at which point I get somewhat miffed. Honestly, I get tired really easily of people putting so much identification into gender, I believe the appropriate term is "Granfalloon". I can see this discussion getting very hostile very easily, so I want to frontload that to avoid some possible misunderstandings.
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You know, i used to always have to make the first move (i'm a guy) in a relationship. I never knew when to, so i always just asked... pretty simple.
But recently i've been sleeping with a girl that has made the first move every single time. it's really new to me and it's FANTASTIC. i guess there is just a lot of different people out there... some girls are comfortable making the first move, and some aren't. The same goes for guys.
I too am fed up with the whole "hurr, i'm a stupid guy that can't tie his shoelaces correctly, hurr."
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I officially hate this thread. Hate it to hell.
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I'm right there with you.
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Sometimes I wonder why these and the top boards are so segregated.
And then this happens.
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Who is SmithDevil and can we have a throwdown because I am the most misogynistic female you might ever meet.
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I heard Katie once suckerpunched Todd Bertuzzi.
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He cried like a little bitch.
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Really? I thought she just got her avatar to dickslap him in the face.
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plx
Is this an accidental mashup of "pix" and "plz"?
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It's true. I once heard Katie say to a woman "Get in the kitchen and make me some god damn dinner!"
Then she slapped her on the ass.
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Who is SmithDevil and can we have a throwdown because I am the most misogynistic female you might ever meet.
http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php?action=profile;u=13714 There you go. Can I sell tickets for said throwdown?
(stop posting so I can post this!)
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It's true. I once heard Katie say to a woman "Get in the kitchen and make me some god damn dinner!"
Then she slapped her on the ass.
Bitch can't seem to make me a fucking sandwich without any damn mayonaise.
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This thread now has the potential to be the best thread ever.
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CRISIS ON INFINITE FORUM
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Tarvok, are you a male person?
I bet you are.
How old are you?
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You know I think that part of the irony is that if his post were in better context of a greater discussion I think I could get along quite well with him. Stick around, start lurking this forum and learn the rules/culture better.
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Gender is important in certain areas, I reckon, but it's only important because of societal prejudice. When all is said and done I'm comfortable with the idea that women are generally the preferred candidates for, say, kindergarten teachers and suchlike.
Is it discrimination? Yes. Is it reasonable discrimination? Probably not. I'd be prepared to bet that the majority of male applicants for that job are lovely, nice people who want to hang out with little kids all day because they are genuinely nice blokes so it's a little bit of an unfair prejudice on society's part. The reason I'm comfortable with it is that it safeguards a lot of well-meaning men from ever getting themselves into legal trouble they don't deserve because of some hyper-protective mother who screams the heavens down whenever a Man so much as tries to comfort their daughter after a playground fall (true story).
It pisses me off that companies have quotas to meet in this regard though. We're now entering an era where, say, three people can attend a job interview, one is better-qualified and more apt for the job than the other two, but will be passed over because he happens to be a male WASP, as opposed to a female or an "ethnic minority".
I dislike that term too. Ethnic freaking Minority. Given that us white folk represent the smallest major genetic demographic in the world, it's hardly right that we are the ones calling everyone else a minority, is it? The Muthlu Tribe of the Amazon rain forest, a twelve-person group who are all related to each other, and whose last contact with the outside world was twelve years ago, in the form of a missionary who wound up dead because he stepped on the wrong sort of frog? They're a Minority.
...
Also, why is it that I am slightly aroused by the idea of women being blatantly misogynistic?
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I dislike that term too. Ethnic freaking Minority. Given that us white folk represent the smallest major genetic demographic in the world,
Yet we also happen to be the richest and most powerful demographic in the world, and to be the demographic majority in most of the worlds richest countries.
Many other problems with your post, but I got stuff to do! bbiab!
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For example, women and men should be paid the same because there is no compelling reason otherwise. However, few people would deny that women should be entitled to maternity leave for longer than men.
This depends. Are you talking about the woman being out because she can't physically do her job due to the pregnancy or the time after birth spent with the child? I took off the same amount of time my wife did when my son was born.
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You can talk Tommy, you with a topless lady in your avatar!
You patriarch.
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Gender is important in other respects. Biologically, men and women are different. Consult the Wikipedia for more information.
har har hurrr
Alright fine, your average builder's a bloke because men have more lean muscle, more muscle mass as a percentage of their bodyweight and tend to be larger, meaning men are stronger and better suited to manual labour like lifting and carrying. Like I implied, there are exceptions. There's nothing stopping women from operating the crane, installing the electricity or being the foreman other than societal prejudice, however - they just aren't seen as "girly" jobs.
I think it's actually more to do with wealth than race.
In which case it riles up my inner stickler. Minority = less numerically represented group, not less wealthy group.
My point is that I dislike the term. I don't have to be rational about it, surely? :angel:
Also, why is it that I am slightly aroused by the idea of women being blatantly misogynistic?
You probably already know but just in case it was a genuine question I'll field this one.
It wasn't. ^^
I just like the mental image of women slapping other women on the ass.
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I dislike that term too. Ethnic freaking Minority. Given that us white folk represent the smallest major genetic demographic in the world,
Yet we also happen to be the richest and most powerful demographic in the world, and to be the demographic majority in most of the worlds richest countries.
Many other problems with your post, but I got stuff to do! bbiab!
That may be, but if there is some sort of white people group in which the rich people give out money to the poor white people, I haven't found it. Working class people have to try to eke out a decent living no matter race or gender. Over here, though, women and "minorities" are given preferential treatment when it comes to getting a job a lot of the time, you have it lucky in the U.K., positive discrimination is outlawed there.
Tommy, I like to think that I would treat someone exactly the same regardless of gender, a pregnancy would be treated like any other... not finding the right word here, "disability"? Let's just use that, you understand what I mean. It would be treated like any other disability that temporarily rendered the person unable of working.
Oh, switchblade, what does WASP stand for? White-ASsed-Person?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestant
I once heard a Korean guy describe himself as a WASP. I think he meant preppy and just didn't know what the word means.
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Or maybe he played in a WASP cover band? But probably not, if he dressed preppy. Interesting term though.
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Maybe he was an Animorph.
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Or a villain for the Big Bad Beetleborgs
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I used to watch that show when I was six. And I read those books through most of elementary. Thanks for reminding me of those, guys.
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Also, why is it that I am slightly aroused by the idea of women being blatantly misogynistic?
self-hating women
I guess I am not actually misogynistic, then, because I don't actually hate women, and I certainly don't hate myself. I am quite fond of myself, really. And I like women, I just think most of them are ridiculous and shallow and melodramatic and flaky and irrational and hormonal and bitchy.
I do hate effing mayonnaise, though.
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mysomayonistic?
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Smacking mayo on the ass is a really difficult feat, honestly.
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Slapping mayo on someone else's ass though... that's a fetish to rake in some cash on.
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Ooh la LA!
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No, they did that in Clerks 2 and it got in Rosario Dawson's hooha.
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Wait, whats wrong with mayo?
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It's gross?
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I like mayo.
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wow! i don't even know where to begin with this one but let's see what i can do. just a few quick points:
- there are still major differences in the amount of pay men and women receive for performing their jobs but it's a little more complicated than that. while a lot of efforts have been made to pay men and women equally for performing the same jobs, a lot of the differences exist in the fact that many fields are still dominated primarily by either men or women, and male-dominated careers just tend to earn more than female-dominated ones. for example, truck drivers are primarily male while secretaries are primarily female. truck drivers, on average, make more money than secretaries. similarily, science majors (often male) earn more on average than humanities majors (often female). and so on.
- responding to tarvok, men do hold a lot of power over women sexually, whether that's something you choose to acknowledge or not. a big example i can think of is that of men using force against women. this is a theme that is basically everywhere in films and television (and, obviously, pornography), but nobody recognizes it as rape because it's portrayed in a context in which the female plays hard to get and the male persists and then the girl after a brief struggle decides she likes it after all. not only do few young people seem to recognize this as rape but there is evidence that these same patterns exist in real life as well. surveys conducted among young women in university and college show a significantly larger amount reporting having had force unwillingly used against them during sex than having been raped, even though they're pretty much the same thing. maybe some women do like this, i don't know, but it still proves a valuable point - that in many cases a woman saying "no" really doesn't have a significant impact anymore.
- this might just be one of those particularly grim views you acquire when you read as many crime statistics on a daily basis as i do, but a lot of the power dynamics between men and women stem simply from the fact that women get pregnant and men don't. it's nice to believe that women are really amazing and powerful because they have the ability to generate new life and so on but unfortunately that doesn't really reflect on reality. like, at all. not to bash the male forumites who are married or have children or any of that committed relationship stuff, i'm sure you are all wonderful people but unfortunately the fact remains that when women become pregnant they place themselves automatically in a position where they are completely vulnerable and dependent on another person, usually her husband. she can't leave because she is incapable of earning her own money. this has the potential to end extremely badly, as illustrated in cases where women experience abuse at the hands of their husbands or the husband up and leaves entirely. it is also not unusual for women to experience difficulty returning to work after taking time off while pregnant. not to mention that single mothers are far more likely to experience negative stigma from other parents than single fathers, who often receive praise instead. oh, and factor in the amount of women who are raped on an annual basis and the enormous stigma placed on birth control and abortion in certain states. food for thought.
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Man, how would you answer one of those surveys if you are in a S&M and/or dom-sub relationship? Are you honest about it, or does it not count because it is entirely consensual?
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if it's consensual it isn't unwilling force.
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Okay, hands up if you find the whole dom/sub thing to be fucking ridiculous. I can't ever look at that sort of thing without thinking "Those people are fucked up".
To me, S&M has always been more funny than erotic.
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That's because you've never watched it with mayonnaise involved...
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does chocolate syrup count? because I've seen that one a hundred times.
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fun fact: while sharing stories with a friend last year i told her i enjoyed being tied up occasionally during sex. she completely misinterpreted this and told my current housemate jasmine that i was completely into bondage and sub-dom relationships and safe words and whips and all that kind of stuff. luckily jasmine ended up being completely okay with this and i found out only because she approached the subject really casually one day, something like
jasmine: hey tania, i wanted to say, i've never met anyone who's into the whole sub-dom, safeword thing before. you're really cool though.
tania: thanks, i - HOLD ON WHAT
as it turns out she's way kinkier than i am anyway.
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jesus christ why do i always start new pages in the worst possible fucking way
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Murphy's Law.
Now see, I can get my head around the whole "tied up a little bit" thing. I can see that working for me, too. it's the whole "Slave/master" thing that I don't get. If I were ever in that situation I'd just be thinking "this is so weird..."
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Tania it's ok, we understand.
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man, you think you know your creepy internet friends and suddenly it's like you can't even convince them you're not some kind of kinky sex fiend.
i see how this is.
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jesus christ why do i always start new pages in the most awesome fucking way possible
fixed
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Tania, I would tie you up for sex any day.
But then I'd just kinda leave you there and go watch TV.
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(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6239/futuramaey7.png)
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More or less...
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well, if it was futurama i probably wouldn't hold it against you.
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A little bit of (light) bondage never hurt anyone!
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maybe some women do like this, i don't know, but it still proves a valuable point - that in many cases a woman saying "no" really doesn't have a significant impact anymore.
I'm pretty sure some do, but S&M is all about rules, when you do it properly (that's part of the whole appeal anyway). Of course, all the begging and peril and whatnot is a pretty big part of it, so you have agreed upon 'safe words', bizarre or esoteric words or phrases that you would never normally utter during any sort of sexual encounter. So the person who's tied up can beg and plead and moan and whatnot all they want, but if they say 'coagulate' or 'pomegranate juice' or something, everything stops. This is kind of important because S&M can get very, very dangerous, especially for people who are into suffocation.
oh, and factor in the amount of women who are raped on an annual basis and the enormous stigma placed on birth control and abortion in certain states. food for thought.
Also reflect on the significant crossover between people who complain about contraception and abortion, and rabid misogynists. Hmnn!
The thing I always worry about with sex and gender and whatever is that a lot of people over-simplify it. Sex is complex stuff, and often fucked up! Some men rape women and some men rape men and some women rape women and some women rape men and some people do both. Some people fantasize about being raped. Some people fantasize about being raped and murdered. People are strange.
I view rape much in the same way I view other crimes, as the result of misdirected energy. Our sexual culture is bizarre, dumb and sexist. It screws up people of both genders and twists their attitudes to relationships and such. I think a lot of the full-on rape as well probably comes from men who have been downtrodden by society and have projected their hatred, for whatever reason, on to women, and decided to 'take revenge' as they see it. Its more about power than sex in some cases (I remember reading that this is particularly the case in the rape of minors).
*or a gent!
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man, you think you know your creepy internet friends and suddenly it's like you can't even convince them you're not some kind of kinky sex fiend.
i see how this is.
To be fair, we've always known you were a furry.
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Man, how would you answer one of those surveys if you are in a S&M and/or dom-sub relationship? Are you honest about it, or does it not count because it is entirely consensual?
On the survey I would very likely not answer the question in the most technically accurate way, because I wouldn't want to deal with responses like Switchblade's. Of course, the question as written probably wouldn't allow for the possibility of truly answering it "truthfully" as it's far too complex of an issue to explain in a simple survey question. When you start getting into concepts like "consensual non-consent" it becomes a VERY tricky topic... and of course it varies greatly from one relationship to another, since BDSM is a catch-all term that encompasses a huge range of things.
A little bit of (light) bondage never hurt anyone!
You're doing it wrong, imo.
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On the survey I would very likely not answer the question in the most technically accurate way, because I wouldn't want to deal with responses like Switchblade's.
Uh... did I offend you or something? If so, then I apologize... :oops:
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I think he likes the whips and chains, d'ye ken.
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Well, all power to him.
Or, y'know, not... as the case may be.
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You didn't offend at all, but your response was a good example of prevalent viewpoints and I chose to highlight it as part of my point. Sorry if you misconstrued, I wasn't trying to single you out, nor did anything you said actually bother me.
And Khar, I'm not actually much of a fan of chains ;)
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Dude prefers rope.
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Rope is nicer on the skin. And soft climbing rope doesn't leave marks if you don't want it to.
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Dude prefers being nailed to a crucifix and having lit candles inserted in his anus whilst brazilian transexuals urinate in his eyes.
If you catch my drift.
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Ladies and gentlemen, a classic example of single-entendre.
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jesus christ why do i always start new pages in the worst possible fucking way
You are mistaken. That was the best possible way.
ADDITION: Don't judge me because I'm slow.
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I've done the Dom/Sub thing. Was the Dom. It's way more boring and more work than you realize. And Subs, they be needy people. There's all this stuff they want done to them, it's really kind of tiring. My preference by far is a bit of wine and simple love making. I kind of do still like to use the whip.
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Thank you for that enlightening information.
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God you want me to whip you again?
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Damn this is a confusing/interesting/don't read too late in the day kind of topic.
A way too curious for my own good question though:
Which sex do you associate most with Dom and Sub (I suppose this would also be more interesting if you tell us your own sex too).
Personally I would like to think of women as the more submissive, but deep in my heart I know I am wrong! (I am a guy).
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I mostly associate women with doms, since the whole point of the dom/sub thing is to be kinky and deviant, and submissive is the cultural norm for women.
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a) Only vaguely interesting necropost!
b) Converting to a list thread!
No thanks.
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Why is this alive?
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man, i dunno