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Fun Stuff => CHATTER => Topic started by: ThePQ4 on 22 Apr 2008, 10:50
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I attended "The Great Porn Debate" last night, featuring Ron Jeremy and Craig Gross. Here's an exert from my Campus Daily Life Newsletter about it:
"The Great Porn Debate" -a moderated debate about pornography and its effects on society such as: is it healthy, addictive, destructive, or a window to fantasy? Featuring Ron Jeremy, the Guinness Book of World Records holder for "most appearances in Adult Film", starring in over 1,900 films and directing over 250 more, and Craig Gross, pastor from Southern California and founder of XXXChurch.com, the largest anti-porn website on the internet. The XXXChurch.com has been featured on Time, The Today Show, Good Morning America, CBS Evening New, and the New York Times.
It was a very interesting, spirited debate. As far as debates go, Gross obviously had very good points and was a very good speaker. Jeremy tended to go off on tangents, but it was very lively, and I left feeling a little more educated about the porn biz --both the good and the bad.
So, first: has one seen this debate? It was done at Yale and featured on an episode of Nightline on ABC, but they are also doing a tour (I think they are at Minnesota State tonight, for any forumites there). If you have, what were your thoughts.
For those who haven't, what are your thoughts on the "The Porn Debate", pros and cons.
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There was actually something similar going on here at W&M last night primarily related to the Sex Workers' Art Show, but I had a couple important assignments and so it slipped my mind.
The debate you're talking about I certainly have not seen and I don't know that it would even go this south.
In terms of having such a debate I'm glad to have it though I would wonder about how well Ron Jeremy could represent the industry. Certainly he's not notable for his charming and bubbly personality from things I've read in this subforum about him.
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Well, my roommate and I were first in line to meet him. He seemed rather bored, and not over-all pleased. The line to meet him was HUGE (we happened to have seats near his table, so it wasn't hard to get to the front). I got a couple of pics, and he was cordial, but it wasn't like he overly chatty.
Craig Gross on the other hand, had a much shorter line to meet him of course, but he was very nice, very chatty. He obviously likes what he does, and is proud of the work he's done. XXXChurch.com is actually very interesting and has a very interesting layout/format, I guess is how to say it.
My overall opinion of porn is that: if you want to watch it, watch it. If you don't, then that's fine too. I personally feed into more gay porn (my friend Lauryn and I had some VERY impure thoughts about how well the good Pastor would be in a gay film...) and the like, but I don't like anything overly hardcore, but I'm also not obsessive about it either. I don't need to watch it, I find it more amusing then erotic most of the time. So, while I think Pastor Gross had good ideas, I'm not going to stop watching porn.
I'll see if I can find a youtube link or something to a peice from the Nightline Debate... I'm sure it exists. It just aired as recently as last week, I think.
Edit:
Nightline Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac-7k-D_3tE)
Nightline Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei3BtxBwWUs)
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Yo this is totally an interesting thing deserving of its own thread.
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I'm not sure this event really merits the descriptor "great." I mean, a longtime porn star and an evangelical preacher disagree with each other's morals, STOP THE PRESSES
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Well, it's pretty great that they seem to have stayed civil through-out the whole thing.
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so are we supposed to debate porn, or talk about people who have debated porn?
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I'm not sure actually debating porn around here would be particularly effective. Unless you meant debating which porn sites are the best ones.
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I'm going to film some Debate Porn. The dialogue writes itself.
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Without googling it first or anything, I'd be willing to put money down that such porn already exists.
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i mean, i had some pretty cool stuff to say about porn but if the debate already happened i guess i'm... i guess that's cool.
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I could link to a bevy of top notch free porn sites, myself. You see, I watch a lot of porn.
Also of note, I feel now would be a good time to cover a related debate:
Streaming versus downloads? Which do you prefer?
Me, I prefer streaming. If I want some porn, I want it right now. I don't want to wait half an hour to download a good porn torrent. Given, once in a great while, I'll download one that sounds good while I stream something else for the time being.
Given, the downside is that it's often difficult to find quality streams that are anything more than two or three minutes long, but a determined individual can find some excellent streams.
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i mean, i had some pretty cool stuff to say about porn but if the debate already happened i guess i'm... i guess that's cool.
I will debate you. I wish to hear your opinions on porn. Don't worry, no matter what you say I am prepared to take the contrary position.
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I will debate you. I wish to hear your opinions on porn. Don't worry, no matter what you say I am prepared to take the missionary position.
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Man, Craig Gross is so dreamy. I wish he wasn't so into Jesus. Although I'm probably 60-40 on his side of the debate.
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(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/tommydski/JC_cry.png)
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I will debate you. I wish to hear your opinions on porn. Don't worry, no matter what you say I am prepared to take the missionary position.
Well played.
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This thread has gone this long without a "master debater" joke? Seriously?
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Without googling it first or anything, I'd be willing to put money down that such porn already exists.
Rule 34 states that if it didnt, it does now.
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I watch porn, but wouldnt watch it so much if I was
getting laid taking a sabbatical from women.
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oh come on, everyone knows missionary is the most boring sex position.
i'll probably write a longer post later if people actually care enough to debate about porn (i won't be offended if no one does), but a very short summary would be that i don't watch porn because i find about 90% of it really terrifyingly degrading to women. when it comes to porn in general, it's a huge turn on to see people in pornographic film who are really comfortable with their sexuality and with what they're doing. i don't think there's even a point in anybody denying that sex exists, ever, so the whole "it's just perverse!" argument is one i'm not even going to bother with. sex happens, some people like to be watched and some people like to watch other people. that's cool with me.
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My biggest problem with porn is that I feel like 99% of it is just some girl who needed to make some quick cash, and then ends up deeper in than she expected. I don't know how often that happens, but I saw some TV special about one girl that that happened to, and it kind of ruined things for me (which I am okay with). Basically, it's so surface and shallow, that it really isn't a turn on to me anymore like it was when I was 15.
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I agree with what Tania says about porn that's mass-produced and the easiest to access. I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with its existence if it weren't for the fact that for a lot of younger people, their first formative encounter with sex is through this shit, and then they have to go through the trouble of unlearning a lot of things.
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My biggest problem with porn is that I feel like 99% of it is just some girl who needed to make some quick cash, and then ends up deeper in than she expected. I don't know how often that happens, but I saw some TV special about one girl that that happened to, and it kind of ruined things for me (which I am okay with). Basically, it's so surface and shallow, that it really isn't a turn on to me anymore like it was when I was 15.
Yeah, there are quite a few sad stories out there about this. Quite a few suicides and overdoses, plenty of addicts, etc., there's not a whole lot of positive stories out there. Asia Carrera is in MENSA. That's about it. Everything else is pretty much an 'I needed money/am a nympho/fetishist'. One of the more popular stars is leaving the business to work in real estate (Eve Lawrence). I imagine most of them don't stick around for very long due to lack of any kind of pension.
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I don't have a problem with the idea of porn. It's natural. Erotic art and presentation has been around since art itself was first created (though modern porn certainly isn't an art form). The way it's carried out nowadays really bugs me though. It's almost sickeningly exploitative, and violent, extreme porn has been gaining traction, particularly on the internet. I suppose it's better for people who have a rape fetish to get their fill of it by staged porn rather than indulging in their desires, but at the same time, it degrades sex, which should be the most wonderful thing in life.
The notion that sex should wait until you've found your "soul-mate" and gotten married is both unrealistic, unhealthy, and against out biological and mental instincts and basic drives. Sexual promiscuity has gotten a bit out of hand in some ways, though, and it's been reflected in the degree to which porn has become outright violent towards women.
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the reason i can't stand the whole "porn is gross because sex is gross, etc" argument is because in my experience (and i realize anecdotal evidence isn't the best evidence but it's all i have unfortunately), i know far more people who have been damaged by the fact that their parents excessively sheltered them and tried to bring them up in a world where sex didn't exist than from being exposed to sex. it just isn't a healthy attitude! i don't understand how parents can think this is a good idea.
i like to think i'm a pretty stable, grounded person. i also love talking about sex. i get really weirded out when people shun me or make me feel like a pervert when i discuss my sex life. while i can agree that there's a time and a place for everything, i've never understood how often people can take the attitude where they just absolutely never think sex is an appropriate topic for discussion at any time. sex is the most natural thing in the world! people shouldn't be ashamed by it, they should be as comfortable with their sexuality as possible. people should be able to explore what feels good for them without feeling judged or embarassed. again, some people really enjoy being filmed and other people really enjoy watching pornography to learn more about themselves sexually. i completely approve of this.
however, like mentioned previously, i don't watch porn and my main reason for not watching porn is that it seems 90% of it is kind of terrifyingly degrading to women. also, i'm not arguing that porn is degrading to women simply for the sake of arguing that it's degrading to women - there's a lot of evidence that suggests that a lot of guys are really influenced by what they watch and this is what bothers me more. while correlation does not imply causation, there is still a very strong correlation in males between being sexually violent towards women and watching pornography. this doesn't mean that if you're a rapist you watch porn or vice versa. it could also be the case that maybe if there is a causal relationship it goes the other way, and people who are already kind of degrading and violent and stuff are drawn to porn because they can relate to it. these are just trends, not solid cause-and-effect relationships. obviously millions of people watch porn and are not criminals so i'm not going to tell anyone what to do, but i'm also not going to watch porn because i don't like it.
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The notion that sex should wait until you've found your "soul-mate" and gotten married is both unrealistic, unhealthy, and against out biological and mental instincts and basic drives. Sexual promiscuity has gotten a bit out of hand in some ways, though, and it's been reflected in the degree to which porn has become outright violent towards women.
Actually, this is what I'm doing, for a variety of reasons. A lot of it, probably, is because I've been taught growing up that it's the "right" thing to do. I don't blame my parents or anyone else for this view because I don't feel like I've really missed out on anything. I have nothing against sex at all, and I find it to be an extremely interesting topic when discussed with the right person, but it's not something I'm all that interested in until I've found someone I trust. I tend to get really attached to people really quick, so most of the reason I've held off has been for my own mental health. I don't want to have sex with someone, get attached to them, then get left behind. The easiest way to solve this is to wait until I'm married. I just genuinely feel it's in my best interest to wait.
Though there are a lot of people out there who do have an unhealthy idea that sex is bad, especially before they're married. A lot of it is because of religion, I guess, but a lot of it is also fear of what their parents might think if they found out or the consequences for unsafe sex, etc. Sex is a really important part of life, and there are a lot of people (kids especially) that are uneducated about it, so they have irrational fears/unrealistic expectations.
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Sexual promiscuity has gotten a bit out of hand in some ways, though, and it's been reflected in the degree to which porn has become outright violent towards women.
I don't really understand this, I can't see what sleeping with a number of different people has to do with violence against women.
I agree with what people have said about the depressingly degrading nature of the majority of the porn out there. There's nothing wrong with fetishising domination and submission or just having a little fun with power relations. After all, Foucault loved a bit of BDSM and nobody knew more about the dangers of certain kinds of power relations in a society. But so much of the material out there just leaves a bad taste in the mouth, you can tell there's an unpleasant level of misogyny present and it really can't foster good attitudes towards sex and sexuality.
The other thing I find really depressing though is a lot of the comments you see on anti-porn websites like that xxxchurch place. So many of the men on there seem to be watching porn that allows them to experience aspects of the sexuality they otherwise wouldn't be able to since they've been conditioned to think of them as perverse, sinful and wrong. What they're battling against isn't porn addiction, it's the fact that they'd really like to sleep with men, or transvestites, or somebody who's into bondage, all of which is perfectly normal and fine. Sadly, instead of someone telling them to get off the porn sites and onto a gay dating website, or ebay to buy a dress and some handcuffs they get told they're sinful and they need to become clean.
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I haven't heard anything about the specific debate in question and I'm at work at the moment so I can't check into it more. My take on the general porn debate though is that if I am of a legal age to physically engage in sexual acts then what is wrong with me being able to looking at pictures of said acts?
That said, I also agree with Tania somewhat. A lot of porn on the intertubes seems horrible. I think I go on about this every time we start talking about porn. Sites like Bangbus, Chicktrainer et al are pretty awful and make me wonder what kind of effect they are having on young teenage dudes circumventing age restriction checks by getting passes from someplace. The fact that Girls Gone Wild is pretty much a household name makes me shake my head and kind of maybe want to burn things to the ground a little.
I am not even sure if what makes me so outraged about these sites is the same as what Tania's talking about, or if it's something entirely different. I'll try to explain my viewpoint and just kind of assume that you guys know enough about the sites in question that this'll make sense, because I've started typing up descriptions a couple of times now & can't really get them out without sounding like some overzealous twat. One of the main objections is that they generally treat the girls like shit. The girls are never an equal partner in the sexual process. They are simply pretty things that the male actor puts his cock into and which are then discarded wholesale in some derogatory fashion at the end of the act. On occasion I have tried to watch one of the movies when there's a particularly attractive girl involved or whatever, but the way they are treated always turns me off.
Another major problem I have with these sites is that they are patently misleading. I know that any moron should be able to realise that the girls are actresses and being paid for the scenes, etc. But then again I have known people to send me obvious celebrity fakes and argue with me until they are blue in the face that they person in question was "definitely a slut" and that the fake in question was in keeping with their image. (The celebrity was Gillian Anderson, by the way. It was an obvious fake, pixels and everything, and the guy was definitely too stupid to be trolling me). Parts of voyeur and party sites Girls Gone Wild offer up an entirely different yet completely awful scenario. They pay porn actresses to go to parties and pretend to be normal girls who get naked and such. This further blurs the lines for the viewer, and in some cases you'll get other girls going along with the actresses either too stupid or too drunk to know what's up.
So yes, when quizzed on this kind of thing most people would say "oh yeah, I know it's totally fake" but that probably doesn't stop Bob Q. Shitpants from silently inferring that all girls are sluts waiting for the right amount of money to be dangled in front of their noses and that dirtytalk consists entirely of calling the girl a whore and asking her if she wants your come on her face.
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kind of terrifyingly degrading to women
As a counterpoint, I present this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6tAQUuhloM&feature=related
(don't worry, it's sfw, just amusing)
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The girls are never an equal partner in the sexual process.
not all girls want to be "equal" in the sexual process.
some want to be in control, others actually enjoy getting smacked around and having their hair pulled and whatnot.
gosh.
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I feel weird, because you seem like you're being sarcastic, except what you're saying is partially true, and it still isn't a valid rebuttal of what he was saying, and hlugfhkjgh ambiguity on the internet
I am going to bring up a point your post brought up. On the topic of girls who like being dominated sexually - when they're being submissive, aren't they still in control?
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i am not being sarcastic for once, just trying to bring up a point that is often forgotten in these kinds of debates, but too tired to write a proper rebuttal.
no interweb ambiguity here.
don't get me started on submission.
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I think the point was more that the girls in the videos (or girls in mainstream porn in general, I guess) from those places are NEVER in control. I mean, it'd be pretty ridiculous to assume that there are no ladies who are into S/D, S/M, whatever, right?
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Yeah, most porn isn't a submissive thing. It's a "I'm being paid to let a guy dick me so thousands of other guys can watch" thing. There's a considerable difference.
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I think the point was more that the girls in the videos (or girls in mainstream porn in general, I guess) from those places are NEVER in control.
well, in a sense they ARE, seeing as how they made the choice to star in porn (yes, it's a choice, there are always other career options available), and i don't think they're too sheltered and clueless to know what they're getting into.
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Sexual promiscuity has gotten a bit out of hand in some ways, though, and it's been reflected in the degree to which porn has become outright violent towards women.
How do you link sexual promiscuity and violence towards women?
Genuinely intrigued.
Obviously I can't answer for them but it's a connection lots of people make. Personally, I think it's the other way around - the more taboo sex is in general, the more the lines between acceptable and not are blurred. I think the "sex is dirty" idea is closely linked to stereotypical gender roles which tend to reinforce the idea that women don't like sex except as a way to express love, so men are always wanting more, and hence to the idea that men have to "trick" sex out of women which in turn blurs the whole concept of consent.
I find the idea that women-like-x and men-like-x totally laughable. I think mainstream ideas about sex are so penile-centric that sex becomes something entirely defined by penetration (obviously in the biological sense this follows) and hence really not that great for a lot of women. But I've met men and women of hugely varying libidos and sexual tastes, and frankly my partner and I are polar opposites to the gender stereotypes - he's naturally very monogamous, primarily enjoys sex as a loving act, I pretty much cannot have sex as an act of love and while I don't think that's healthy I don't think my difficulty with monogamy is unusual. I just can't see that monogamy is natural for either sex.
As to porn, I like the idea, but frankly I just can't watch it any more. I can't watch it without seeing how bored both people are, how rote their actions are, how completely the women is an object in a product aimed at men. Even worse, you can't look for straight porn without being barraged with descriptions of "bitches" being "tricked into sex" (sorry sweatheart but if that's true it's called rape; hate to burst your bubble). I like hardcore, and I like S&M. I do not like sexual passiveness in women and borderline abusiveness being sold as the norm to people learning about their sexuality.
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Good post!
I only look at indie porn.
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I just can't see that monogamy is natural for either sex.
I would put forward that this is because you are a sensible, thoughtful human being.
That's just me though.
Or perhaps a cynical, overly analytical person? Yours sounds better :lol:
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man it is finally good to see a newbie with decent shit to say.
as for the porn debate, i haven't really been reading so this is just me batting my thoughts out, but it seems there is a slowly growing number of female directors who are managing to make tasteful pornography where the woman isn't some slut from the street and the whole thing isnt just 'I'M GOING TO BANG THIS HOT CHICK NAO HAGAHAGH'
and i have to say, its a lot closer to realism. i know i prefer that over most of the other crap this short-sighted industry pumps out nowadays.
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Thank you? Fortunately, sex is something I can pretty much argue about all day.
I can't exactly say I have extensive experience with modern, er I dunno, classy porn? But anyway I was getting some iPod update thingies that was meant to be more realistic sex but they kept cutting back and forth between talking and feeling each other and f*ing and looking all orgasmic and it just wasn't doing it for me. Too touchy-feely, too... something.
I guess it's personal taste too. I like me some good bondage, some realistic lesbian softcore (maybe that's because I've never seen realistic hardcore... can you even have hardcore lesbian porn? I suppose so), but more often I like stories. They can take you so many places and so much more completely than a couple of people who look nothing like you or your personal taste and with no time to build up sexual tension.
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Fenriswolf, you made a really good post but i am going to have to be totally anal here (HURRRRRRR) and point out that something can be penis-centric or penile but it doesn't really any sense for it to be penile-centric.
I'm sorry! I just dig on morphology so bad that was jamming into my skull like a fork.
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Fenriswolf, you made a really good post but i am going to have to be totally anal here (HURRRRRRR) and point out that something can be penis-centric or penile but it doesn't really any sense for it to be penile-centric.
I'm sorry! I just dig on morphology so bad that was jamming into my skull like a fork.
lol It's truuuue! I'm finding that my sentence structure has been really f*ed up recently so you'll have to forgive me. It drives me nuts, because usually what I love about the internet is the ability to say exactly what I think. When I'm garbling my thoughts the way I did above it kind of ruins my joy in posting. Hmph
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Hat forgot a word in that first sentence, try and find it.
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Haha! See what a wonderful person I am, I have attuned myself to block out other people's inconsistancies! OK, that is a lie. The missing word is make
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Points to you.
Why Fenriswolf, Fenris was a wolf or have you just translated the latter half of Fenrisulfr. It all seems rather tautological.
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Well well, I just can't think of a clever reply to that. My how I wish I were clever with words - but rather I get on extremely well with people who are and they make the mistake of thinking I am. The horror
My alternative name when Fenriswolf is taken is Hrovitnir, a word I can't even pronounce and is actually spelt Hróðvitnir
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I think the point was more that the girls in the videos (or girls in mainstream porn in general, I guess) from those places are NEVER in control.
hm, but what of all the porn companies run by women? Do you think those are okay then?
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the unfortunate thing about pornography is that it's also an area where it's really hard to draw the line between what's degrading and what isn't. an amateur video featuring a girl being gang banged and clearly not enjoying it isn't hard to identify, but what about girls who really legitimately enjoy being in videos and being submissive and make a very decent living off of it? mostly i am trying to play the devil's advocate here but really what a lot of people seem to miss is that telling a women she can't be in pornography because it's degrading is really just as sexist as telling her she's nothing but an object for guys to put their dicks in, because both scenarios still ignore the fact that women are actually smart enough to make their own decisions. kind of like what brittany said i guess, is something really degrading if you understand what's going on and are comfortable and in control of the situation? probably not.
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I wasn't arguing that sexual promiscuity in itself breeds violence towards women. In fact, I'm all in favor of being open, realistic and not uptight about sexuality. Oftentimes, it's the people who are raised in households and go to schools that refuse to tell kids the truth who grow up to be the most "deviant" in terms of sexual habits. I firmly believe that to stifle the sexual desires of a person and label them as bad, wrong or evil is one of the most mentally damaging things that a parent can do. It often wounds the very core of a person for the entirety of their life, unless they get therapy for it.
It's more the idea that "anything goes" in terms of sexual practices. I mean, if a person has a kink or a fetish, they should indulge it in, safely and with people who share it or at least are willing to tolerate it in their parter. But to a significant number of younger people, "normal" sex in porn isn't enough anymore, they view it as bordering on boring. There's this constant push towards the outer fringes of sexual habits, towards the ever-more-extreme, and I think that's why we're seeing such a massive growth in gagging/choking/torture/rape porn.
So, generally speaking, there needs to be some kind of moderation. To try to shun or condemn sexuality isn't just futile, it's not ethical. But to go on the completely opposite end and say that, sexually, anyone can do anything they want without consequence--and that a significant number of women would enjoy being forced to gag until they puke--isn't, either.
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the areas where prostitution is worst, though (by "worst" i mean involving the aforementioned cases where women somehow end up in that career as a last resort) are areas where it's illegal, because these women have no protection by the law and are at risk of abuse from clients and pimps. they also have to turn over virtually everything they make to pimps and thus are essentially slaves. there aren't a lot of complaints in areas where prostitution is legal from women who work for and support themselves and really enjoy their line of work. i don't know anything at all about the legality of pornographic media but maybe it's similar in ways.
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I'm not so sure that's true. I think that regulated and limited prostitution should be legalized, but there's no evidence that it makes the prostitutes themselves safer. Look at the Netherlands. In Amsterdam, prostitution is actually incredibely dangerous, and the pimps are incredibely violent. Because it's legalized, human traffickers bring in women from Romania, Bulgaria and other Eastern European countries, as well as impoverished Asian nations like Nepal and Cambodia and basically use them as slaves, paying them little or nothing and so increasing their own profits. It's becoming an increasingly common phenomenon in Amsterdam and other cities and countries where prostitution is either legalized or winked at.
Further, even though it's legalized in Amsterdam, it's not regular and watched over, so it still continues to operate in the dark, even though the process itself is standing in open daylight for all to see.
Violence against prostitutes has become so endemic in Amsterdam that the city has begun to shut down a large number of brothels and independent sex-selling pimps in the city. It's basically attempting to abolish the red-light district because the crime and violence in and around it have become such a blight on the city in recent years.
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ah, i didn't know any of that stuff about amsterdam. i read an article really recently about illegal prostitution in new york and the anthropologist was basically arguing how all these terrible problems would be solved if prostitution was legalized. i guess one article is not enough to base an argument on.
i would probably argue that male directors dod function a lot like pimps, but there's still a lot of grey area. are all male directors misogynists simply because they're men? what about female directors who also cast women in submissive roles, are they exempt because they're women profiting from other women? similarly, doesn't porn also place guys in a position where they are getting paid to have sex on video? i actually don't have arguments for any of these questions because i still find most porn creepy as hell but it would be interesting to hear what other people think.
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At this point in the debate I'm getting a little confused about what people are discussing. Like, I kinda want to respond to points here and there, but I'm not sure what exactly you're getting at. For instance, tommy are you arguing for some specific change in the status of pornography in society, or are you just explaining your personal distaste? Some people seem to be arguing that porn should or should not be made illegal, while others seem to just be explaining why they do or do not watch porn, and it isn't clear to me who is saying what.
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For me, the whole topic of porn is a giant grey area. I think I've watched one porn ever in my life, and it was lesbian. That's what you get when you tell your guy friends you've never seen any.
I do think porn has the potential to be extremely empowering for any sex, with a sort of "this is my body, and it is amazing." mentality. I just question how much of it actually is a positive thing for the people involved. A lot of porn stars will say that they love their job, that they love what they do, but couldn't that be just a cognitive dissonance thing? And does that make it less valid? As for what Joe asked (the first time!), of course women directors and producers can also be exploitive of the women in the films. It might make sense to argue more in terms of power dynamics as opposed to gender, especially once Tommy brought that up in relation to gay porn.
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I grew up Internet style from a very young age. As such, I've been exposed to all sorts of porn, the most degrading and disgusting stuff possible, throughout my life, especially the more formidable years of sexual development.
However, I don't think I have any really weird sexual hangups or desire to dominate or subjugate or degrade women despite that. Hell, my current taste in porn is pretty much, in general, only things that the women themselves have the control over or just genuine amateur stuff. It grates on me to hear or see male directors giving orders or controlling the flow of the porn.
That's just my personal experience in porn, though, hardly scientifically rigorous.
That said, the porn industry is not a healthy place for anyone. It is, of course, the choice of any woman who goes into it to do it and people choose to do terrible, unhealthy things to themselves all the time, but it's still miserable and made doubly so because so many people literally get off on this unhealthy choice. The advent of the internet has only made it worse because now any jackass with a camera can just do it without even the moderate regulation of the old establishment of the porn industry. I remember being on 4chan and there was a thread with a bunch of porn (on 4chan?! NO!) of one girl in particular, when her Wikipedia article was posted talking about how she was raped repeatedly by family members and strangers growing up and then was murdered a year or so back. This being 4chan, the immediate response was HURR THAT MAKES IT HOTTER which basically made me approach violent anger, but it demonstrated the kind of people who probably often go into porn and the kind of people who probably often enjoy it.
I don't know. I think it can be made as a celebration of sexuality and beautiful men and women, but the status quo is HURR VAGINA WITH LEGS FUCK FUCK and I'm not sure that can ever be changed in our lifetime. I'm pretty much against "vice laws" in general and prefer regulation of vice industries over criminalization and porn isn't really an exception, but I still wish it could be changed somehow.
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I'm literally explaining why I don't like pornography.
I don't think we should ban it.
ah cool thanks for the clarification. I kinda feel like all debates should start with participants clearly delineating their viewpoint.
HURR VAGINA WITH LEGS FUCK FUCK
That reminds me, last night I was watching an episode of The Wire from season 3, and detective McNulty described himself as a breathing machine for his dick. That was pretty funny.
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<rant about amsterdam beeing the DEVILSCRIB
Uhm, no.
A). Prostitution is legal in the entirety of the Netherlands. We dont give a crap about your opinion.
AII). Also, guess who earns money on tourists coming for the pot n hookers?
B). The big clubs in amsterdam are beeing shot down due to moneylaundering
C). With prostitution beeing legalized, it is possible to you know, figure out weither or not someone is treating their employees fairly. If you dont, you lose your permit, which yes, would force you into the shades. In the shades noone will look after the way the employees are treated.
D). If legal, we get to tax things! Yay, filling the states coffers!
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I've been filmed having sex. I have even filmed myself having sex. Apparently it's something I do when I'm drunk. Whoever put an easy video function on mobile phones is indirectly responsible for so much.
It astounds me that we, as a society, have gotten to the point where we're filming amatuer porn on telephones.
I think I've realized the premise for the third movie in the Sam Knight trilogy (Following Parental Consent and Sam Knight, P.I.): Sam plays Sherman alongside a digitally rendered Mr. Peabody (Voiced by Rodrick). The two hop in their wayback machine and go back in time, informing Antonio Meucci that, in about 250 years' time, his great invention would essentially be reduced to a device used to archive the fornication of one Tommydski. What follows is an epic tale of time travel and intrique as Sherman and Peabody attempt to rectify their mistake, which has resulted in a modern world without telephones.
Edit: Shit, I forgot I already had a third movie featuring Jimmy as a horrible alien overlord named Jalkor who tries to take over Sam's galaxy when his parents forget to take him on vacation with them.
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I forgot there was a pagebreak :(
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I really don't have much of an issue with the porn industry in general, but I would be very uncomfortable with a sex partner watching porn regularly. It's too hard not to feel like you're being compared to professionals and found lacking.
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That pastor isn't that hot.
The only surmisable thing I can come up with in relation to porn is the people forced into it. You cannot tell me that the girls in two girls, one cup weren't sex-slaves or doing it for drugs.
But besides that little quip, I would SO do porn.
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In all seriousness, this has become a surprisingly stimulating thread.
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HURR
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I really don't have much of an issue with the porn industry in general, but I would be very uncomfortable with a sex partner watching porn regularly. It's too hard not to feel like you're being compared to professionals and found lacking.
Hmn, I don't claim any expertise or anything of that nature, but we men, well, most of us like porn. And we generally like whacking it, even when we're in a committed relationship. It's going to happen. I mean, sure, if you're spending too much time watching porn, that's bad. But so is too much WoW or too much drinking. That doesn't mean we ought not play dumb MMOs or drink. What if your significant other isn't in the mood? You can try and convince them otherwise, or you can shove off and take care of yourself. Porn is useful in this context for everyone. Hell, I even know couples who like watching porn together. Don't necessarily understand it, but it's out there.
I'm not saying you ought to be absolutely comfortable with a partner watching porn, I'm just saying that as these things go, it's pretty natural and it's not necessarily indicative of disapproval of you or your relationship. And I'd bet that most guys would probably not have much fun participating in porn-style sex. Nobody's having fun in those videos! It looks pretty mechanical.
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I would be very uncomfortable with a sex partner watching porn regularly
translation: I date liars.
note for the slow: I kid a lot.
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<rant about amsterdam beeing the DEVILSCRIB
Uhm, no.
A). Prostitution is legal in the entirety of the Netherlands. We dont give a crap about your opinion.
AII). Also, guess who earns money on tourists coming for the pot n hookers?
B). The big clubs in amsterdam are beeing shot down due to moneylaundering
C). With prostitution beeing legalized, it is possible to you know, figure out weither or not someone is treating their employees fairly. If you dont, you lose your permit, which yes, would force you into the shades. In the shades noone will look after the way the employees are treated.
D). If legal, we get to tax things! Yay, filling the states coffers!
I believe you, since you live there. But that's not what The New York Times, Newsweek and The Economist say.
It wasn't my "opinion." It's what's been reported. Numerous times. By numerous sources.
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You know, I think I can truly thank the internet for the fact I am neither shocked or disgusted by videos like '2 Girls 1 Cup'.
Thankyou, internet.
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It's too hard not to feel like you're being compared to professionals and found lacking.
Watching relatively attractive people having a lot of fun playing football/poker/piano wouldn't stop me from wanting to do those things in person. I really only ever found my partner lacking in comparison to a porn actress about ten years ago in my first relationship when I was too young to know any better, but a decent talk between us sorted it out in fairly short order. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, I guess I'm just trying to say that if it does then there's got to be a dialogue between the two of you to clear things up.
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there's a small bit in fargo rock city where chuck klosterman talks about why so many teenage boys are obsessed with strippers and porn actresses, and the book as a whole has absolutely nothing to do with this (it's actually about his love of 80's hair metal), but he still makes a pretty neat point regardless. basically he said that guys obsess over these women because of the fact that they are fantasy women - but that's actually all they are. so his girlfriend complained because she felt that she was supposed to be his fantasy women, and he kept trying to explain that while he loved her and thought she was really super fantastic she could never be his fantasy woman because he already knew lots of stuff about her and thus had to acknowledge her as a real human being no matter what. and it didn't mean he would rather be with a stripper or porn actress than her, only that strippers/porn actresses/models/etc are intriguing to hormonal teenage boys because they give off that fantasy woman, i'm-not-actually-a-real-person quality that actual real life girls don't have. it makes sense i guess, i could understand why a guy would enjoy porn but at the same time still not hold his girlfriend to those expectations. or vice versa with a girl and her boyfriend i guess.
i think i would still be uncomfortable with the idea of a significant other watching porn, though, but mostly for hey-most-porn-is-really-fucking-terrifying reasons.
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It's basically like wrestling.
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I think the point was more that the girls in the videos (or girls in mainstream porn in general, I guess) from those places are NEVER in control.
hm, but what of all the porn companies run by women? Do you think those are okay then?
INSERT POST FEMINISM JOKE!
Anyways, there is so much to discuss when it comes to pornography. I personally don't really watch porn but it's something I've been an issue I've thought about. First off, I'd like to ask Tania, you mentioned that they've found correlations between men who watch pornography and violence, I've read that there are very few and/or low correlations between these two, so I don't really know who's right here. However, I do agree with you that porn is really degrading to women. I really, really detest the idea and literal action of cum shots; I need not explain why, I'm sure you are all smart enough to figure it out.
I've got more stuff I'd like to mention and ask people stuff, but I'm way too tired to form well structured sentences.
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My question: what's the deal with the close-up shot of a penis going in and out of a vagina? I mean, who really wants to watch that?
Excuse the pun, but most porn is just so fucking boring.
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It's just part of my theory that most men are more gay than they believe. I mean, there is a lot of cock in porn, and a lot of looking at the dudes. I mean, porn is full of ugly men and cock close ups. Really, I would like more of the ladies and less of this dude who looks like a dick talking dirty.
Porn is pretty gay.
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Yeah, that's why I try to stay away from male dominated professional porn too. I even like dicks, but my god those dudes are annoying and unattractive. If I want to see dicks, I'll watch gay porn. Boom. Two attractive dudes with good dicks not being annoying because their mouths are too full of dick.
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Slick: I'm pretty sure that was the basis for a Ron White joke...
Ozymandias: I think the reason for the actors being annoying is largely due to script. There've been a slew of new sites focusing on girls being doodled with large and/or clearly fake members recently. The plot is typically this: guy sees hot girl doing something (could be a pajama party, shopping at home depot, etc.) Guy introduces himself somehow (I'm a fan of your porno), says he has a big dick to get her interested. The rest is color commentary.
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That doesn't make them less annoying and it isn't just those sites. It's a large swath of industry porn.
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It's just part of my theory that most men are more gay than they believe. I mean, there is a lot of cock in porn, and a lot of looking at the dudes. I mean, porn is full of ugly men and cock close ups. Really, I would like more of the ladies and less of this dude who looks like a dick talking dirty.
Porn is pretty gay.
This is why I only look for lez porns and such if I do so. If I really want to explore the specifically male body parts I can do so with my own.
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My alternative name when Fenriswolf is taken is Hrovitnir, a word I can't even pronounce and is actually spelt Hróðvitnir
Rather hard to write down the sounds, but something like 'Hurrod-th-veetnear'. The d-like letter is an eth, and is pronounced th as in them.
You cannot tell me that the girls in two girls, one cup weren't sex-slaves or doing it for drugs.
"
I could easily claim that. Just because you're not into coprophagia doesn't mean there aren't people who are. Ooh, look, Wikipedia, everyone's favourite source of data:
"The video originated from a 36-year-old Brazilian man, named Marco Fiorito, who describes himself as a "compulsive fetishist".[7] Fiorito originally produced foot fetish videos but soon moved on to coprophagia. The film was produced by MFX-Video, one of several companies owned by Fiorito.[7] Fiorito contends his films are legal in Brazil, but authorities in the United States have branded some of his films as obscene and filed charges against Danilo Croce, a Brazilian lawyer living in Florida, listed as an officer of a company distributing Fiorito's films in the United States.[7] Croce accepted a plea bargain and was sentenced to 3 years of unsupervised probation and forfeiture of $98,000.[7] Fiorito claimed he did not know his films were illegal in the United States and that his films often contained chocolate instead of feces to appease some of his actors who were willing to appear in scat films but not actually eat fecal matter.[7]"
Yeah this dude is totally a crack dealing white slaver.
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The only porn debate is "what do I watch tonight?"
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This is why I only look for lez porns and such if I do so. If I really want to explore the specifically male body parts I can do so with my own.
I wish there was more "lesbian" porn with women who are genuinely into women and not just putting on a show.
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Interestingly enough, a lot of the lez porn I look at is totally staged (Lightspeed Girls).
I think I prefer my porn to be as nonsexual as possible.
(Of course, I love nudes. I just found a bunch of alt-nude torrents. That said, some such sites have some bad reputations of their own. I was exploring how SuicideGirls tried to destroy the careers of any models that did stuff for competing sites and such the other day as well.)
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So there is this really awesome lesbian scene at the end of that Pirates movie that came out a couple of years ago. Holy fucking shit.
That is my entire opinion on the subject.
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I think a good way to explore the topic would be to remove some elements of porn and see how it changes the perception of it. What if instead of sex, porn consisted of two (or more) people (usually a male and female) eating a dinner together. Most of the time a man would get a bigger share, and it would focus on when he finishes the meal, and likely not show any partner(s) finishing their meal (possibly not eating it much at all.) Some people might like different meals to be eaten, and some extreme ones could involve force feeding or some other violent twists.
Would you feel the same way about it? Obviously it would likely not be very popular, but would perception of the videos change?
I do not mean to promote any particular 'side', I just though this might be an interesting exercise.
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Isn't that like... 17th century puritan porn. How scandalous?! :-o
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My alternative name when Fenriswolf is taken is Hrovitnir, a word I can't even pronounce and is actually spelt Hróðvitnir
Rather hard to write down the sounds, but something like 'Hurrod-th-veetnear'. The d-like letter is an eth, and is pronounced th as in them.
Awesome. My interpretation is probably about as good as it's going to get without imitating a native speaker then. :)
This is why I only look for lez porns and such if I do so. If I really want to explore the specifically male body parts I can do so with my own.
I wish there was more "lesbian" porn with women who are genuinely into women and not just putting on a show.
Yeah, it's pretty annoying looking at your average "lesbian" porn, and for a start they have huge nails (uh huh, that's just great for fingering), but more importantly most of them aren't very good fakers. *sigh* I'd rather watch amateur videos of girls hooking up in clubs. Though that whole thing has become somewhat creepy of late what with the fucking Girls Gone Wild bullshit *gag*
the unfortunate thing about pornography is that it's also an area where it's really hard to draw the line between what's degrading and what isn't. an amateur video featuring a girl being gang banged and clearly not enjoying it isn't hard to identify, but what about girls who really legitimately enjoy being in videos and being submissive and make a very decent living off of it? mostly i am trying to play the devil's advocate here but really what a lot of people seem to miss is that telling a women she can't be in pornography because it's degrading is really just as sexist as telling her she's nothing but an object for guys to put their dicks in, because both scenarios still ignore the fact that women are actually smart enough to make their own decisions. kind of like what brittany said i guess, is something really degrading if you understand what's going on and are comfortable and in control of the situation? probably not.
I definitely see what you're saying. But then I think there's a pretty clear delineation between movies where the men are cutting the film to be degrading, and one where the woman/en enjoy something that's traditionally degrading. I am uncomfortable with porn that is for men who get off on degrading women, for while dom-play (that may be degrading) is all good in private with lots of communication I just don't feel comfortable making it something acceptable for a general audience (um, not that I think BDSM porn is bad but rather that that's a very specific subset of porn and very different to disgusting pigs like Max Hardcore).
I guess it's like rape fantasies - it's understandable for women to have rape fantasies, or men on the receiving end. It's taking control of something that is ultimately traumatising due to your lack of control. But I just don't know how I can accept men (or women) fantasising about raping someone. It all gets very delicate when you're part of a rape fantasy with your partner and obviously on some levels you enjoy it. But if you are not uncomfortable with the role you're playing (as the rapist) then I just don't think you should be doing it. And I just cannot see any kind of consent-blurring on film as OK at all (including stuff like shoving your cock so hard down the actress's throat that she gets tears in her eyes :x)
I agree that it's utterly patronising to say that women cannot choose to be a porn star or prostitute and own that decision, but we mustn't start acting like this all occurs in a vacuum. All things being equal I think porn is awesome but in the real world there are a lot of issues with power differentials and social dynamics. Sometimes your decisions are not 100% your own.
Finally, legalisation of prostitution. Prostitution is legal in NZ. Thankfully that means we don't have arsehole cops getting to abuse women for selling their bodies. But it doesn't seem to have helped women a lot, there's not a hell of a lot of regulation and it's very difficult for women to work without a madam since we have by-laws in all our main cities saying prostitutes have to work in the CBD: something that is prohibitively expensive.
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I guess it's like rape fantasies - it's understandable for women to have rape fantasies, or men on the receiving end.
Sorry to nitpick but I'm constantly mortified by the idea of 'rape fantasy'. If you're fantasising about it, it's not actually rape because there's consent inherent within the fantasy. Rape is completely without consent, implied or otherwise.
I understand fantasising about aggressive sex with a complete stranger but I don't think it's fair to call this rape.
Actually, that's the whole point. Rape fantasties are common - as in roleplaying at non-consent, hence the comment about reclaiming power. But it's not fantasising about aggressive sex with a stranger, it's fantasising about rape. Either as someone who has been raped and wants to use roleplay as a way to work through their pain, or just as a woman living in a world where rape is so prevalent and fucking terrifying.
The idea of even remotely attempting a rape roleplay makes me incredibly panicky so it's certainly not for everyone. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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So there is this really awesome lesbian scene at the end of that Pirates movie that came out a couple of years ago. Holy fucking shit.
That is my entire opinion on the subject.
My little brother saw the cover and synopsis on the website and thought it was a Pirates of the Caribbean knock-off (which it is) and asked me to go rent it for him. I got there, looked at the back of it, sighed and took it up to the counter. I was checked out by one of the most conservative girls in my graduating class. Not the most awkward thing I've ever done, but it's up there.
For those of you who don't know it's a reasonablystiffcore porn.
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My fiancee and I once saw it on the "New Releases" rack in a Blockbuster. I don't know if the clerks did it on purpose as a joke, or if they genuinely didn't realize they were stocking a porn.
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So I guess "rape simulation" or "rape roleplay" would more precise terms, given that the basic idea isn't actually being raped, but pretending to be?
According to Masters and Johnson, womens' rape fantasies have a lot to do with guilt. The theory is that even in today's society, some women are still ashamed of their sexuality. Subconsciously, by fantasizing about themselves in the role of a victim, they don't have to feel "dirty" for having sex.
It's just a theory, of course, and I read it in an older book. It puts an interesting perspective on the matter though.
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1. Continuing on Lez porn: the stuff I usually look at is on the goofy side. The first half of one video that I actually bothered to watch was just all the girls playing around, like one very sexy farce. I thought it was brilliant.
2. In regards to the post above me, that actually makes some sense, then; I was in the boat of the others with the idea of a "rape fantasy", that it made little to no sense. [Of course I just want my sex to be sex, none of this leather or metal or other bullshit, so I can't really say much on any fetishes.]
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I think your italicized examples are a moot point because sex is a thing typically fantasized about.
Anyways, I agree that the term "rape fantasy" is generally used incorrectly. Such fantasies are typically related to domination fantasies in general, and they typically 1) involve the dominator being someone the subject finds attractive and desirable, and the subject 2) ends up deriving pleasure from the fantasized scenario. Now, this isn't so hard to imagine, is it? But you're right, it's never really rape at all by virtue of the fact that they want it.
As for why this happens, I don't know. Maybe people, whether or not they have experienced rape in the past, are trying to rehabilitate a thing often sensationalized in society. Even though the fantasy described is not truly rape, perhaps this desire to rehabilitate it is why the term gets applied?
Legitimate "rape fantasies" should only apply to the small number of people who respond to trauma from rape by having unwanted thoughts they do not enjoy.
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I've seen that DVD at Tania's house.
that dvd actually belongs to my creepy pervert lesbian housemates. i got about halfway through actually before coming across (surprise!) a scene depicting one of the girls sort of raping another girl and then halfway through she started to like it and i decided that was just about enough for me.
which brings me to my point about how most sex offenders usually try to justify their actions by claiming that if you're really persistent the girl will just start to enjoy the sex halfway through. it's really common for these people to actually say "i didn't do anything wrong, she was really enjoying it" despite the fact that the girl was saying no the entire time. it can sometimes be really fucking hard to separate physical and emotional arousal when it comes to sex. basically any guy or girl who has not actually wanted to have sex at a certain given time but is still really physically aroused for some reason can probably attest to that. and it's unfortunate, because often the women who report the most trauma from being raped are the ones who orgasm during the experience. i can't imagine anything that would leave you feeling more fucked up and powerless than that. maybe guys really like the idea of rape fantasies because they think if you're really persistent and forceful the girl will just give up and start to like it halfway through, but i guess what they don't get is that it really is possible to physically respond to sex and at the same time find the experience completely horrible.
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ew!
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My fiancee and I once saw it on the "New Releases" rack in a Blockbuster. I don't know if the clerks did it on purpose as a joke, or if they genuinely didn't realize they were stocking a porn.
It's technically not a porn. Well, it is, but it's softcore, which is totally legal in most states. There's no penetration, see. The video store I work at has a ton on of newer playboy releases, which are just naked ladies bouncing around. We get a lot of phone calls asking if we carry porn, and it's incredibly awkward trying to describe the difference in a sort of roundabout way, because saying "there's no penetration" at work just seems wrong.
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I think your italicized examples are a moot point because sex is a thing typically fantasized about.
That's sort of my point. I was being deliberately ridiculous but the point remains rape is not a thing typically fantasised about either. Not by most women anyway.
There probably have been people who fantasise about all of the above for whatever reason but there are in an absolute, absolute minority.
not the most common fantasy (rape, not being dominated or sex with strangers since some of you seem a bit confused about that), but it may be slightly more common than you think.
it's just not the sort of thing that most people would openly admit, cause of the feelings of guilt and such associated with it.
and not only women fantasize about getting raped.
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To clarify for Joe Hocking - I think it's dangerous for any male to believe that a woman might secretly want him to rape her.
I don't know if you were teasing, but that's actually a helpful clarification. I was wondering why you seemed to have such a problem with the concept of rape fantasies; so it's not so much the fantasy in and of itself you find problematic, but rather people who would use that to justify actual rape. I'm wondering why you brought this up since I didn't notice anyone suggesting rape is ok (read: I didn't see that post) but assuming your tangent is relevant, I certainly agree that the existence of rape fantasies does not in any way excuse rape.
As ruyi pointed out, those examples you gave aren't great because they have nothing to do with sexual fantasies, so how about this example: Does the fact that some men have a cuckold fetish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuckold#Cuckoldry_as_a_fetish) make it okay for a wife to cheat on her husband?
ADDITION: oh wait, thinking about it more, is your actual point that one problem with porn is that it makes men think rape fantasies are common? Because that is both relevant to the thread and something I wouldn't have considered.
It's technically not a porn. Well, it is, but it's softcore, which is totally legal in most states. There's no penetration, see. The video store I work at has a ton on of newer playboy releases, which are just naked ladies bouncing around. We get a lot of phone calls asking if we carry porn, and it's incredibly awkward trying to describe the difference in a sort of roundabout way, because saying "there's no penetration" at work just seems wrong.
I've watched a little of that movie (after katie's enthusiastic post I kinda wish I watched the end, but oh well) and if that's considered "softcore" well damn.
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it may be slightly more common than you think
but would those women still have those kinds of fantasies if rape/aggression towards women wasn't so commonly portrayed in porn in the first place? people are influenced by what they watch.
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rape fantasies typically originate from past experience, not media influence.
if many women have a problem with violent and degrading porn, they are not going to keep watching the stuff until they start to enjoy it on some subconscious level. they will either find porn that doesn't offend them, or give up on it entirely.
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Does the fact that some men have a cuckold fetish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuckold#Cuckoldry_as_a_fetish) make it okay for a wife to cheat on her husband?
if he encourages his wife to have sex with other people and she agrees that this is a good idea, and they decide to make this part of their sex life, what is not okay?
if they have discussed this and outlined rules for it, and both of them stick to said rules, how is that cheating?
he is all hurrr hurr my wife is hot hurr and she is all "sexually liberated" and such.
it's a lifestyle. not one i approve of (in fact i find it kind of repulsive) but nevertheless...
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To Tommy: Though, along those lines, people may harbor the thought that during a potential sexual assault, they might begin to enjoy it. Perhaps this thought arises from a past experience of rape in which they did become aroused (applying the important distinction between physical arousal and emotional enjoyment, raised earlier). Thus, they might in hindsight confuse their arousal with enjoyment, causing an identity crisis. To reclaim the identity which became aroused, they might imaginatively recreate the scenario, in which they, this time, while in control of their identity, become aroused (to what extent they could possibly enjoy such a fantasy is supremely questionable). So as to try and reconcile the event in their mind.
I'm just trying to offer up an explanation that makes sense to me. Whether or not it's true, and certainly whether or not the fantasy proposed here is a healthy coping mechanism can't be answered by me. Hiiiiiighly speculative.
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I swear this is the only serious post I will make in this thread:
Anyone who makes any sort of "x makes you do/think x" claim and can't back it up with reliable peer reviewed research is talking out of their ass.
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20 J.F.G.:
Of course, the point is that in actual rape this really isn't possible, so while in the situation you described most would agree that acting in such a way isn't wrong, communication and rules in rape pretty much by definition are nonexistent.
If all one had to go with is that "Oh, he probably has a cuckold fetish and thus secretly DOES want me to go out and have sex with other men," then it I think most would agree that doing so IS wrong.
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I know people who have sexual fantasies about being murdered or executed, why is the idea of people who fantasise about being raped so hard to swallow?
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20 J.F.G.:
Of course, the point is that in actual rape this really isn't possible, so while in the situation you described most would agree that acting in such a way isn't wrong, communication and rules in rape pretty much by definition are nonexistent.
If all one had to go with is that "Oh, he probably has a cuckold fetish and thus secretly DOES want me to go out and have sex with other men," then it I think most would agree that doing so IS wrong.
i kind of went on an unrelated tangent about cuckolding in that last post.
but.... people who HAVE rape fantasies usually want to act on them in a very specific way (ie, tommy's example about his ex girlfriend)
thus it becomes role-playing of rape, instead of actual rape.
and that follows certain rules.
now do i need to explain role playing?
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I've seen that DVD at Tania's house.
that dvd actually belongs to my creepy pervert lesbian housemates.
I slept in one of their beds! And lost a sock!
Obviously her lesbian bed consumed my sock for it's matter and converted it into soft-core porn.
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My fiancee and I once saw it on the "New Releases" rack in a Blockbuster. I don't know if the clerks did it on purpose as a joke, or if they genuinely didn't realize they were stocking a porn.
It's technically not a porn. Well, it is, but it's softcore, which is totally legal in most states. There's no penetration, see. The video store I work at has a ton on of newer playboy releases, which are just naked ladies bouncing around. We get a lot of phone calls asking if we carry porn, and it's incredibly awkward trying to describe the difference in a sort of roundabout way, because saying "there's no penetration" at work just seems wrong.
Um I own this on dvd (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0477457/) and I can personally say that having watched all of it through several times* that there is quite a lot of penetration.
*Incidentally, for Zombie-and-Porno night with friends at my old uni.
Also, I am not really sure I should be admitting this, but I have rape fantasies from time to time. I have never suffered abuse or rape itself. The "me" in my head is not always the victim, either, and now that I think about it I would probably say it is more playing around with dominance and submissive things in my head than anything, but that doesn't change the fact that I would say some of them are definitely about rape.
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I can't say I've ever had rape fantasies, but I can't see it being impossible.
I mean, I've gotten in certain moods where I just feel like being hit by a car, sometimes because I want to be hurt, sometimes because I feel like I deserve it, sometimes because I want to have an excuse to be out of commission, and sometimes just because I want to have someone to be seriously fucking mad at with good reason.
As well, I think fantasies of violence are not entirely uncommon. It's not that much of a stretch, really.
Besides, man, have you ever met people? They are, like, all kinds of screwed up. I can see how the words 'rape fantasy' could be incorrectly used, but I can see how they could be correctly used.
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I know people who have sexual fantasies about being murdered or executed, why is the idea of people who fantasise about being raped so hard to swallow?
Probably because women are raped daily, existing as female carries a risk of rape and thus it's something very close to home for a lot of women. Somewhat more likely to actually happen to you than a violent murder.
I know people who have sexual fantasies about being murdered or executed, why is the idea of people who fantasise about being raped so hard to swallow?
I am sure people fully believe they have rape fantasies and I'm sure you believe them.
My sole point is that I don't think it really counts as rape because they are complicit. I think it constitutes misuse of the term rape if they want it to happen.
I don't blame anyone for being confused, it's at the extreme end of semantics.
Of course it's not actually rape. It's called rape because that's what they're playing out. For example, woman who has been sexually assaulted is once again comfortable with her body and consensual sex but still panics sometimes when she feels constricted/during hard sex. They want to work through their feelings by simulating a non-consensual experience whilst having complete control.
it may be slightly more common than you think
but would those women still have those kinds of fantasies if rape/aggression towards women wasn't so commonly portrayed in porn in the first place? people are influenced by what they watch.
Possibly not, but I suspect you're coming at this from a different angle from me. I think rape fantasies may be made more common by the fact that rape is so common, that it's constantly in the news, borderline non-consent is portrayed as hilarious often on TV and the internet and yes, sex is shown in a really unbalanced light in porn. Hence some women want to reclaim their bodies by ripping the heart out of the whole concept with consensual consent-play.
I can't help but believe the 'women have rape fantasies' theory is (potentially?) harmful. For one reason or another (idle curiosity, feminist girlfriends, secret history in a riot grrrl band etc) I've spent a lot of time reading and talking about the continuously horrific rape statistics in the western world and beyond. Every time I talk about this, someone brings up these supposed 'rape fantasies'. However, I have personally never met anyone who actually admits to having fantasies about being raped. Not any of my friends or indeed any of the of women I have been in a relationship with. I can't help but think the amount of airtime the 'rape fantasies' concept gets is a serious fuck you to all the women who have been raped in the time it took me to formulate this post (probably hundreds worldwide).
To clarify for Joe Hocking - I think it's dangerous for any male to believe that a woman might secretly want him to rape her.
That's a great quote. And I agree - when I first stumbled upon rape porn on the internet my co-worker was quick to point out that lots of women have rape fantasies. As someone who probably has PTSD not from being raped but from knowledge of my mother's gang rape and her attempt to protect me from the world it was a concept I honestly couldn't grasp for a long time (and in that context was wrong wrong wrong but I was younger and more impressionable).
I have discussed with my mother the revolting feeling that while you hate it your body responds. Myself I am so fucked up by it that I couldn't even say the word rape until I was about 15 and the scene in Crash where the cop sticks his fingers up the black woman's skirt basically gave me a panic attack. Yet I find myself simultaneously homicidally angry and somewhat aroused by rape scenes in books - something that makes me want to vomit, and my brain shies away from but if I am honest it's there. So I can see why some people might do that
Finally, I cannot remember the web address but I used to read a blog by a couple into BDSM who would sometimes play at rape scenes. The guy was the dom, I really liked both of them. They were funny and open and generally seemed like the kind of people I would really like. I asked them how they could do that and he said that it's a really good question and it's quite a scary experience and he'd answer later when he had time for a proper reply. Unfortunately the blog was in the process of dying so I never got my reply but I found that very interesting
Sorry for my rambling, that's just my 2c
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When they say no penetration, they mean no man/woman bits visible. You'll see topless women who are clearly going through the motions with the guy, but the cameras are placed so the actual coitus is not visible. This is so as to get under the R rating so it'll be carried in most rental stores, possibly increasing their sales. As far as porn goes, that one was pretty high-budget, and they're trying to profit from it as much as possible.
For zombie-and-porno, I suggest Dellamorte Dellamore (or as it's known stateside, Cemetary Man), it's a zombie movie involving necrophilia with what some people consider the hottest chick ever in a non-pornographic industry movie. It was also Martin Scoresese's favorite movie of 1994. It's got zombies and titties, but it's more of a dark comedy than anything else.
Even if you're not looking for a zombie-porno, it's a pretty good movie.
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Alright who's watching this in Toronto?
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i'll pass.
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Guys I just downloaded and watched Pirates for the purpose of education re: this thread, and there is definitely explicitly displayed fuckin'.
Maybe you silly Americans are watching the wrong version.
Where did you find it? I need it for...research purposes...
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Pirates? As in it's just called Pirates or what? I would search for if I could be bothered...
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Yeah, the version I saw definitely was not that explicit. Damned censors/christian-owned rental stores.
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Maybe you silly Americans are watching the wrong version.
I looked on imdb. The american version is like, 40 mintues shorter or something like that.
Laaaaaaaaaame.
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Only good part about that movie is the hilarious CGI skeleton battle.
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UK:18R / USA:Not Rated / UK:18 (edited version) / USA:R (edited version)
I didn't realize there was an R rated one and a Not Rated one. My store and probably that Blockbuster both carry the R verson. In most of the other softcore ones we have, they're just pretending to do it.
I am also fairly certain the only movies that have real bonin' going on that you can see are Brown Bunny and Shortbus, because they are art films and technically not pornography. Still NC-17 though
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Oh, there are lots of art films with actual fuckin' in them. I think the Dreamers was one of them, but I'm not entirely sure about that.
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you can find pirates on any torrent site pretty easily.
everyone in here already knows my thoughts on porn (obviously) but as far as pornography goes and from the first half of the film i did manage to get through it's actually pretty decent. there's a plot, and sometimes the characters say things like "last night i dreamt my cock was a tri-masted spanish galleon." amazing.
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I took it up to a friend's house and we only got halfway through because of the terrible lines. That, and this really obnoxious girl (also unfortunately ugly) whom no one invited decided to let everyone know how horny she was every 5 minutes, so we gave up and watched Ong-Bak instead to shut her up.
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is that the film where the dude beats up another dude with his knees
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And elbows.
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Oh, there are lots of art films with actual fuckin' in them. I think the Dreamers was one of them, but I'm not entirely sure about that.
Before the Devil Knows You're Dead is all LOL BUTTSECKS at the start but there is no visible "penetration".
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So I guess "rape simulation" or "rape roleplay" would more precise terms, given that the basic idea isn't actually being raped, but pretending to be?
According to Masters and Johnson, womens' rape fantasies have a lot to do with guilt. The theory is that even in today's society, some women are still ashamed of their sexuality. Subconsciously, by fantasizing about themselves in the role of a victim, they don't have to feel "dirty" for having sex.
It's just a theory, of course, and I read it in an older book. It puts an interesting perspective on the matter though.
This theory doesn't really surprise me all that much. Consider that even in a modern, Western society where people are supposedy free there is still an extremely sex-negative culture. A lot of this stems from religion, many of which out and out decry any sexual behaviour that isn't 1) within a church sanctioned marriage and 2) in the missionary position. There is still the double standard that males are expected to be "promiscuous", have a wealth of sexual experience by the time they are married or at the very least there is more of a tolerance for male sexual behaviour whereas females are expected to have no sexual desire until after marriage and even then it is to be limited to procreative sex only. This is pretty obvious in the media where even in shows like Scrubs there are lines like "Oh my god, I can't believe you're getting married! Just think, you'll only have to have sex when you actually want to!" To me this line says a lot about the assumption that women do not actually enjoy sex for pretty much most of the time. It's particularly visible among teenagers and younger adults with the double standard of the male "player" and the female equivalent "slut" (neither of which I particularly agree with).
Rape fantasies however are just fantasies of sexual domination/submission. They may take the form of roleplaying dominative or forceful sex but, as has been mentioned above, they are not actual rapings because obviously there is no real loss of control on the part of the person being "raped." I do agree that simply calling them rape fantasies does trivialise the experiences of rape victims, however arguments of semantics are, all in all, a bit pointless.
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Regarding films with actual boning, there are quite a few, depending on hat you mean by actual boning.
Most of the ones i've seen lately are unfathomably bad hough. Ken Park had a lot of sex and it is the biggest piece of shit movie i have ever seen, including several "so bad it's good but actually it is so crap" and "Dune".
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Rape fantasies however are just fantasies of sexual domination/submission. They may take the form of roleplaying dominative or forceful sex but, as has been mentioned above, they are not actual rapings because obviously there is no real loss of control on the part of the person being "raped." I do agree that simply calling them rape fantasies does trivialise the experiences of rape victims, however arguments of semantics are, all in all, a bit pointless.
errrrr, there is more to rape fantasies than wanting to be sexually submissive.
rape roleplay is about FORCING someone into submission, and simulating a real loss of control.
i mean, obviously that is a hard thing to act out but it's possible.
does this masters and johnson theory have anything to say about MEN that fantasize about getting raped?
it's all hurrrr women do not feel comfortable with their sexual desires and therefore want to reinforce their own feelings of guilt about them hurrr.
seems a bit outdated to me. but hey, what do i know, i'm a girl, and that clearly indicates i don't like non-procreative sex. :roll:
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No you are right there is more to it then just domination/submission but at its core that's what the rape fantasy is albeit taken to a rather extreme level.
However it cannot truly be forcing someone into anything if they want to be forced. And considering that I've gone out with a girl who has rape fantasies I can say, in at least that one case, there is no actual loss of control. The situation is proscribed to a significant degree by the submissive individual (especially when the dominator is pretty uncomfortable about the whole thing) beforehand with rules in place that put the submissive individual in a position of complete control under a thin veneer of helplessness.
Basically, SEX IS A LIE!
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I didn't realize there was an R rated one and a Not Rated one. My store and probably that Blockbuster both carry the R verson. In most of the other softcore ones we have, they're just pretending to do it.
Oh I didn't think of that. I actually knew that's pretty common, for porn makers to cut a softcore version of the film too, but I forgot. I remember reading an interview with a porn editor. He explained that while filming porns they also film special camera angles to use in the softcore edit, where the penetration is blocked by a plant or something.
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No you are right there is more to it then just domination/submission but at its core that's what the rape fantasy is albeit taken to a rather extreme level.
However it cannot truly be forcing someone into anything if they want to be forced. And considering that I've gone out with a girl who has rape fantasies I can say, in at least that one case, there is no actual loss of control. The situation is proscribed to a significant degree by the submissive individual (especially when the dominator is pretty uncomfortable about the whole thing) beforehand with rules in place that put the submissive individual in a position of complete control under a thin veneer of helplessness.
Basically, SEX IS A LIE!
i know i know.
from personal experience, not the internet.
in fact it can be argued that the submissive always has more control than the dominant because they are the ones that can stop the scene at any time but i will not get into that argument here. not yet, anyway.
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I know people who have sexual fantasies about being murdered or executed, why is the idea of people who fantasise about being raped so hard to swallow?
I am sure people fully believe they have rape fantasies and I'm sure you believe them.
My sole point is that I don't think it really counts as rape because they are complicit. I think it constitutes misuse of the term rape if they want it to happen.
I don't blame anyone for being confused, it's at the extreme end of semantics.
No, I understand what you're getting at, and I agree completely. By definition, rape is forced on one of the parties; it's absolutely and completely without any kind of consent. So fantasizing about "rape" is much different than actually fantasizing about really being raped, since the individual has obviously given themselves a sort of mental consent to do so.
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I swear this is the only serious post I will make in this thread:
Anyone who makes any sort of "x makes you do/think x" claim and can't back it up with reliable peer reviewed research is talking out of their ass.
This part of the conversation seems to have been smothered by a new tangent but I'm going to try and drag it out again.
We've been studying media violence in Sociology lately, and we've read a lot of conflicting theories that looked at the effects of media violence on young children. It's not quite the same thing as porn and not the same audience but presumably the same theory applies. Some of the studies found that watching violent films increased aggressiveness. Some found it didn't have an effect. Some found it decreased aggressiveness. I suppose the basic answer to be drawn from these studies is that a) it's hard to get a conclusive result from a laboratory-based experiment or b) different people respond in different ways to violence.
One thing we agreed on in class was that people who are not totally repulsed by violence are more likely to watch violent films, and to commit violence themselves, than people who hate it. That isn't to say that someone who likes to watch The Chainsaw Massacre (for example) is automatically going to go and kill people, but it's fairly safe to say that if you can't stand the idea of violence, you're neither going to enjoy watching nor committing it. The same probably goes for rape and sexual assault, although I don't have anything to back up this theory.
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Recently I did an essay about censorship of video nasties* in the Thatcher era and the general consensus I gleamed from the sources I used was that video violence was, if anything, a catalyst rather than a cause. By that I mean if you're predisposed to violence watching a violent film could drive you to commit a violent act but watching a violent film is not in itself making you a violent person. Think straw that broke the camels back (or perhaps a rather more apt comparison).
I think it's a very small leap from the way video violence (bearing in mind that includes sexual violence) affects people to the way porn (and even more closely violent porn) is likely to affect people.
*According to the report Video Violence and Children (One of my main sources) Video Nasties are “Feature films that contained scenes of such violence and sadism involving either human beings or animals that they would not be granted a certificate by the British Board of Film Censors (BBFC) for general release for public exhibition in Britain”. The term includes films like the evil dead, I spit on your grave and driller killer.
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There's a book that recently came out that I really need to read called Grand Theft Childhood that shows a correlation between not playing violent video games and feelings of aggression. It also shows a correlation between playing too many violent video games and feelings of aggression.
And when you stop and think about it, it starts to make sense. Very aggressive and sometimes violent games have been in human societies for millennia. Other primates fight each other for fun when they're bored. Isn't it plausible that this was an instinctual device not just to train themselves to fight, but also to release aggression in a safer manner than actual violence? If someone isn't releasing their violent tendencies, it can build up into something worse. If they're overdoing that release, it's a symptom of a very violent person to begin with.
Like I said, though, I haven't actually read the book or its sources, but thinking about that, it made sense...
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The most violence-prone girl I know didn't even grow up with a TV. She read a lot of Sci-Fi though.
does this masters and johnson theory have anything to say about MEN that fantasize about getting raped?
it's all hurrrr women do not feel comfortable with their sexual desires and therefore want to reinforce their own feelings of guilt about them hurrr.
seems a bit outdated to me. but hey, what do i know, i'm a girl, and that clearly indicates i don't like non-procreative sex. :roll:
Like I said, it was an older book. Late 80s, I think. But, if you think that women don't still receive negative messages about being sexual, then I envy the world you live in.
They did indeed make a point about men, but it had to do with being raped by another male. Some of the men they spoke to (they do a lot of interview based studies) who identified as straight said that they had fantasies about homosexual rape. Again, M&J theorized that they felt ashamed of having homosexual fantasies and had to put it in the context of forced sex to take the "blame" off of themselves.
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There's a reason that men are players and women are hoes.
That reason is that our society sucks.
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does this masters and johnson theory have anything to say about MEN that fantasize about getting raped?
it's all hurrrr women do not feel comfortable with their sexual desires and therefore want to reinforce their own feelings of guilt about them hurrr.
seems a bit outdated to me. but hey, what do i know, i'm a girl, and that clearly indicates i don't like non-procreative sex. :roll:
Like I said, it was an older book. Late 80s, I think. But, if you think that women don't still receive negative messages about being sexual, then I envy the world you live in.
They did indeed make a point about men, but it had to do with being raped by another male. Some of the men they spoke to (they do a lot of interview based studies) who identified as straight said that they had fantasies about homosexual rape. Again, M&J theorized that they felt ashamed of having homosexual fantasies and had to put it in the context of forced sex to take the "blame" off of themselves.
no, i don't think they don't receive them at all.
i do think they're capable of not letting said messages influence their lives though.
but maybe that is just craaaazy talk on my part.
i meant men that fantasize about getting raped by women.
yes, an extreme minority, but they do exist and i am not sure why they weren't taken into account while these interviews were being conducted.
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Gender equality means putting really thick shoulder pads in your clothes while remaining subservient in a male dominated society.
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Don't forget the hairdos.
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God the porn was atrocious this decade, who the fuck let them have storylines?
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There's a reason that men are players and women are hoes.
That reason is that our society sucks.
I really cannot be bothered reading all the replies since my last post right now so I'll just say... Nice :-D
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I like porn! I think it is, in its most basic form, a fairly healthy display of exhibitionism with very few negative effects. I am very much in support of people putting their sexual experiences on camera and not only because I can't get laid.
However.
I think the problem right now is that just about all studio porn sucks. Sorry guys, I am totally not interested in hearing about how hard some ugly tattooed jockfuckcunt is going to dominate some chick and I'm even less interested in how this jockfuckcunt is going to invariably cum on her over-made-up face. At worst its just degrading to women and at best its goddamned unappealing.
I mean occasionally you will find a gem of "clean" hardcore porn as I call it, where the dude simply just fucks the chick without any of the bullshit dirty talk and stuff. But most of that kind of porn is Japanese, I seriously have never seen Japanese porn (that isn't hentai) that includes half the bullshit that western porn does (except bukkake but that's a reaction to pornography laws).
It's like, the people involved actually partake of actions that are genuinely erotic without being domineering or subservient.
Japanese porn reminds me of amateur porn without the low quality camera, actually. Which is always preferable to western studio porn.
tl;dr: What the fuck, Porn Industry; the Japanese get it right yet again; hooray for the indie scene!
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There's a book that recently came out that I really need to read called Grand Theft Childhood that shows a correlation between not playing violent video games and feelings of aggression. It also shows a correlation between playing too many violent video games and feelings of aggression.
I bet there are also correlations between watching C-Span and feelings of aggression, eating breakfast and feelings of aggression, and exposure to avante garde poetry and feelings of aggression. Just generally, people have a lot of pent up aggression.
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I'm pretty sure that people who have violent inclinations like violent things. It would be pretty silly to say that playing violent video games or watching violent films or listening to violent music makes people (who would otherwise be totally placid and friendly) behave violently. Obviously this is the argument that a lot of people make but surely no clear-thinking person would think that someone who is naturally non-violent would be interested in a videogame where you are rewarded for shooting people in the face or a film where a woman is violently degraded.
I actually enjoy porn, as long as it is straight-up chicks sitting on cakes fucking. I really don't want to see anyone being degraded, I just want to have a completely trashy orgasm and get on with my day.
I may have been reading a lot of Achewood today...
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Dude violent video games give me such great stress relief. I'd be tempted to just get an XBox 360, CoD4, and some recording equipment this summer instead of a new computer. That way, when I have a shitty day at work, I'll be able to blow the faces off of bitches who are shooting at me, and I'll feel better.
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Oh yeah, I totally have violent tendencies. I mean, when I have a bad day at the call centre (everyday is a bad day when you work in a call centre) I have the option of coming home and stewing about it while I wonder what to make for dinner or I can dress up like a ninja, throw on some Incantation and curbstomp some fools on Gears of War and you just know which one I'm going to choose. However, if I were a calm and placid dude I would just chill out on the couch with some Skulker or maybe watch some MASH while eating a Kit-Kat.
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I bet there are also correlations between watching C-Span and feelings of aggression, eating breakfast and feelings of aggression, and exposure to avante garde poetry and feelings of aggression. Just generally, people have a lot of pent up aggression.
The point was that it was actually significantly less pronounced in the healthy middle between not playing and playing too much.
Also, there is hell of a correlation between C-Span and violence.
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surely no clear-thinking person would think that someone who is naturally non-violent would be interested in a videogame where you are rewarded for shooting people in the face or a film where a woman is violently degraded.
I'm a completely non-violent person. I've been a pacifist since I was old enough to consider it and I've not physically hurt anyone - excluding accidents and when I used to play rugby - since I was a nipper. In short, I absolutely abhor violence. At the same time however I enjoy video games such as GTA, CoD4 and a host of other games which involve simulated harm towards pixels as well as extremely violent films and literature.
I am entirely able to see the distinction between simulated/fictional violence and real violence. Saying that only people with violent tendencies (even if they never act on them in the real world) can enjoy violent media is nonsense.
One of my favourite novels is American Psycho and I'm entirely certain that I appreciate it for reasons other than a means of catharsis that stops me turning into Patrick bateman.
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I mean occasionally you will find a gem of "clean" hardcore porn as I call it, where the dude simply just fucks the chick without any of the bullshit dirty talk and stuff. But most of that kind of porn is Japanese, I seriously have never seen Japanese porn (that isn't hentai) that includes half the bullshit that western porn does (except bukkake but that's a reaction to pornography laws).
It's like, the people involved actually partake of actions that are genuinely erotic without being domineering or subservient.
1) no dirty talk? right i am sure everything that is being said to those girls is perfectly polite and respectful. i mean i don't know japanese or anything but they can't possibly be going against any assumptions we may have about their culture.
2) japanese porn is worse than western porn when it comes to being degrading and if you don't think so you have obviously not seen enough of it. the crying schoolgirl theme is quite prevalent.
3) like, no. not at all. so much of the stuff they come up with is the polar opposite of erotic.
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Japanese hardcore is very good at making me feel vaguely uncomfortable about if the girl meant to be there or not.
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surely no clear-thinking person would think that someone who is naturally non-violent would be interested in a videogame where you are rewarded for shooting people in the face or a film where a woman is violently degraded.
I'm a completely non-violent person. I've been a pacifist since I was old enough to consider it and I've not physically hurt anyone - excluding accidents and when I used to play rugby - since I was a nipper. In short, I absolutely abhor violence. At the same time however I enjoy video games such as GTA, CoD4 and a host of other games which involve simulated harm towards pixels as well as extremely violent films and literature.
I am entirely able to see the distinction between simulated/fictional violence and real violence. Saying that only people with violent tendencies (even if they never act on them in the real world) can enjoy violent media is nonsense.
One of my favourite novels is American Psycho and I'm entirely certain that I appreciate it for reasons other than a means of catharsis that stops me turning into Patrick bateman.
I would posit that we have differing views of "non-violent."
As for Japanese hardcore...I say this trying as hard as I can not to sound racist but Japan is a pretty fucked up place. Granted humans in general are a weird bunch but a whole lot of porn that weirds me the shit out comes out of Japan.
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those parts are everywhere.
i have seen otherwise straightforward japanese hardcore with crying in it
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Can we talk about how awesome guro hentai is now?
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Even the straightforward sex in Japanese hardcore is like, the girl is scrunched up at the other end of the bed like she's hiding. It's creepy.
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All this talk of Japanese hardcore porn reminds me of that NOFX song.
Then again, I think everything reminds me of NOFX these days.
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All this talk of Japanese hardcore porn reminds me of that NOFX song.
Japanese hardcore porn is washed-up and was never that good to begin with?
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More along the lines of that EP track "Cool and Unusual Punishment".
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Can we talk about how awesome guro hentai is now?
Yes
Also, the idea was that those wacky Japanese assholes are actually good at porn, especially straightforward hardcore. Yes, there is some fucked up weaboo porn out there but at least it doesn't hide itself, it's all like, "If you like fucked up porn you will like this", where western porn is "ALL BETS ARE OFF, MOTHERFUCKER".
I stand by what I said about amateur porn, though. I really, really can't find a fault with it, morally or practically.
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Well, whatever. Apparently Cream Lemon had a really cool lesbian scene in the Pop Chaser thing, though elsewhere there's some wacked-out stuff in that one.
But man, that Pop Chaser scene was awesome.
EDIT: Apparently some of said whack content is a set in which one girl doesn't like sex because of a series of rapes in her family, so her counselor has her strip down in front of an art class and finger herself. One thing leads to another and there's a massive orgy.
All I've seen is that one Pop Chaser scene, though.
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I'm pretty sure that people who have violent inclinations like violent things. It would be pretty silly to say that playing violent video games or watching violent films or listening to violent music makes people (who would otherwise be totally placid and friendly) behave violently. Obviously this is the argument that a lot of people make but surely no clear-thinking person would think that someone who is naturally non-violent would be interested in a videogame where you are rewarded for shooting people in the face or a film where a woman is violently degraded.
I disagree. (a) I like to make a clear distinction between violence and sexual violence. I enjoy violence in movies and games, I cannot handle sexual violence in any media. Also, just as rape can be non-violent yet just as traumatising, porn doesn't have to be violent to be degrading. And my problem is the really really subtle shit that's there not just in porn but all mainstream media teaching the general populace that women are weak, women are sexually passive, sex is something to take from women, all the things that allow rapists to walk away scot free because a women dared wear a short skirt/be drunk/go to a party/leave the house/be friendly with men/be related to men/exist as female
Even the straightforward sex in Japanese hardcore is like, the girl is scrunched up at the other end of the bed like she's hiding. It's creepy.
Not that I have extensive experience with Japanese porn but I have a borderline fetish for Japanese women (which I feel really bad about but I totally positively discriminate when it comes Japanese women) and have had friends send me lots of bits and pieces. Enough to agree that the inclination toward fetishising submissiveness and actual discomfort with sex IS really creepy
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OK guys, I've basically missed out on this whole debate, and I've read through most of the thread and there's so much here that I'm not sure I want to start addressing any specific issue that anyone has raised.
However, on the subject of porn, there is one thing that I want to say.
There is this website that I found, it is called ifeelmyself.com. I believe rather firmly that it is the best porn to be found on the internet. To the extent that I am comfortable recommending porn, I recommend it. It is an exemplar of how pure and shameless erotica should be treated on film and it is probably the only porn that I have ever been fully comfortable enjoying. Basically it consists mainly of tasteful films of women masturbating. Every now and then it has a film of a woman being brought to orgasm by her real-life partner or close friend (be they male or female) going down on her or fingering her, but the vast majority of the videos are solo. There are also videos in which these women speak to the camera or hold discussions with each other about why they're doing what they're doing, and what makes them comfortable with it, and stuff like that. It basically bucks every uncomfortable and disturbing trend that is associated with porn extremely successfully and, I think as a direct result, is way hotter than any porn I've ever seen.
I don't even watch the videos anymore. I just queue up a video, turn off the computer monitor and all the lights, and put on headphones. Normal porn is all full of "fuck me!" and "oooh you're so big" and really silly-sounding and not-at-all-erotic stuff like that, but hearing a woman whose mind is genuinely in the process of being blown (hurr) is something that will send me completely over the edge, and to be honest visuals just get in the way of my imagination at that point.
Basically, if I had a point, it would be that it IS possible for porn to be done right, actually totally right, and that kind of stuff really is out there if you're lucky enough to find it among all the dross.
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Hey guys, you know what's really sexy? Flat asses and giant frizzy hair!
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Guys, can we stop doing the make-a-joke-by-modifying-a-quote thing? I feel like it is just unfunny now. Am I alone in this?
Also holy shit onewheelwizard that is an excellent link. I'd only seen beautifulagony.com before, I didn't know they did other projects.
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Yeah I was going to talk about beautifulagony but I figured that the two sites cross-linked each other enough that anyone interested would probably find it on their own. Also, as I said the visuals aren't what I'm there for personally, but the fact that ifeelmyself actually does do full-frontal whereas beautifulagony just does faces probably counts for something for a lot of people.
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Guys the idea was less about my specific pornographic inclinations and more the point that brunettes and amateur porn are totally rad.
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Yeah but it's way more fun to imply that you've got yellow fever (yes, that was the most awful way I could think of phrasing that). Personally I find it interesting that as soon as someone expresses any kind of attraction to a person who just happens to be of a certain ethnicity then insane racism starts throwing itself around (I once went out with a Korean girl and all my friends were all "OMG YELLOW FEVER LOL" I am no longer friends with those people).
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Man people can accuse me of yellow fever all they want and I won't deny it because I am totally into brunettes and all you ever get in Asia is brunettes so that suits me just fine.
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Damn yo.
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that, well, if a girl's hot, she's freakin' hot, so why yap about it further? A simple "Damn, that girl is hot" suffices for me.
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ifeelmyself.com -- a big yes.
There are a couple other such sites in the same vein but mainly deal in photos and stills (e.g., MetArt). They're pretty much the only sites I can regularly stand going to that I would actually call porn.
Of course, I'm one of those sickos that finds most artistic nude to be incredibly erotic.
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I typically just go to thehun.net in search of fap fodder. Sometimes there's crazy fetish stuff (who the fuck decided fisting would be a good idea?), sometimes there's just plain retarded crap that makes you go "BAWWWW", a lot of times there's such amazing things as the site where they "pour some fo'ties on dat ass for the homies who ain't here". The overwhelming majority is of the above variety, which is supremely entertaining, but of little to no erotic value.
Every once in a while, though, you get a true gem that makes for some primo fappin'.
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Could we just take one second and contemplate that we are exchanging porn links on a webcomic forum?
Guys we are such huge fucking nerds.
I've been waiting for a while for Jeph to say something about this thread.
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Things have veered wildly into a creepy place.
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Yeah, Patrick's last comment has officially creeped me out. I wish I didn't know what he looked like.
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Mission accomplished.
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PORN
(http://cellar.org/2007/isopod2.jpg)
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I don't even care if that was supposed to be a gigantic isopod; it's hilarious anyway (as a no-hotlinking image).
And now to close up this with the most appropriate actually out-of-context manga quote, from Rosario + Vampire, this:
(http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/8025/mokatentaclesmm2.jpg)
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Aw man muteKI and Patrick please stop being creepy.
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(http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/3291/octopuskd9.jpg)
HOLY FUCK I AM TURNED ON RIGHT NOW
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Actually in all honesty that is one of the least sexual moments in the manga. I wonder if an "official" translation would have put it that way...
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(http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/9827/penispenisbq4.png)
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slick you are my favorite porn
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And you are mine, roo, you are mine.
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The amusing thing is that James is actually, genuinely internet famous for his pornography.
(yes, i am referencing his fb note)
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So I hosted a potluck with my housemate and another friend the other night. One of the friend's friends comes in, introduces himself, and says "Don't I know you from wetriffs.com?"
Moral of the story: do porn.
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This thread has taken quite an interesting turn in less than a day.
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Oh my god you guys are great. I was going to respond to various posts and then there was too much funny so I am going to express my general amusement at your collective debase... ness? Ity? Whatever. Using the word "fap" like that is so wrong yet so hilarious. No, I have nothing of my own to contribute
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Ban on "extreme porn" becoming law next week (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7364475.stm)
sorry if it doesn't fit the motif, didn't think it needed it's own thread.
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What I don't understand is how this law passed before people had asked questions like "why is it illegal to have a photograph of someone doing something that's completely legal (if consensual)?" I mean, I personally find sexual violence distasteful, but the arguments behind the law sound remarkably similar to the people who condemn, say, violent video games because people who play them commit crimes. Certainly, people who rape are going to be attracted to this kind of pornography because they're attracted to rape initally; it's ridiculous to claim that violent porn makes people go out and rape. This sounds to me like the kind of law that'll be repealed in a few years, once people get enough distance to say, "Man, that totally seemed like a good idea at the time..." But maybe that's just wishful thinking.
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Weird weird weird. I would totally support a ban on exclusively pornography that featured rape/non-consensual sex acts, even if it's "just acting". But nothing else. Tying up, beating, burning... those sorts of things can be extremely pleasant for both giver and receiver, and usually pornographers of this ilk make an effort to show that it is consensual and mutually pleasurable with interviews with passionate subs and suchlike. But I have no time for watching someone even pretend to rape someone else. I don't care if that's how you get your jollies, I have no problem banning that
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How far does that extend? Do you ban Deliverance? How about A Clockwork Orange? How about I Spit on Your Grave? At what point do you draw the line and say "this is what should be banned, this is porn, not something people should watch"?
Of course, we're talking about the UK here. Clockwork Orange was banned. So was I Spit on Your Grave, the uncut version still having never been legally released in the UK, so the point is irrelevant in this case. But it's something I find hard to just...say is so because it's so.
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Nobody said Britain had a shining record for passing reasonable laws.
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Clockwork Orange was banned.
At the director's request. It was released a year after he died.
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Wait, it was made legal in 2000?
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It was never illegal, but Kubrick held the rights and withdrew the film after football hooligans took to dressing like Droogs when out for a ruck so he prevented any distribution of it within the UK.
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I suppose the fact that someone made "A Clockwork Orgy" didn't help.
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How far does that extend? Do you ban Deliverance? How about A Clockwork Orange? How about I Spit on Your Grave? At what point do you draw the line and say "this is what should be banned, this is porn, not something people should watch"?
I'm talking about in porn, not for dramatic effect.
Frankly Clockwork Orange the movie (as opposed to the book) made me really uncomfortable but I wouldn't ban it. Hell, The Hills Have Eyes really pisses me off (zombies! Plus rape! Yay!) but I still wouldn't ban it. I'm very anti-censorship.
BUT I would happily ban rape in porn. Non-consensual acts or acts displayed as non-consensual. Women and men both can be tied up and beaten and fucked and have it still be consensual. I really don't think it's a grey area at all - though truly, plenty of people on both sides want to make it a grey area.
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Despite being 'anti-censorship' your argument for banning it isn't really an argument, but your opinion. Rape can basically be replaced with any kind of sexual act(s), or anything really. You're perfectly welcome to this opinion, and I can imagine legitimate reasoning behind it, but all I'm seeing is 'I don't like it and I'd like it banned' .
BUT I would happily ban homosexuality in porn. Homosexual acts or acts displayed as homosexual. Women and men both can be screwed in the ass and have it still be straight. I really don't think it's a grey area at all - though truly, plenty of people on both sides want to make it a grey area.
Have you seen the rape scene in Irreversible? If so, what do you think of that?
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What's only my opinion? I haven't actually made an argument, just said I'd happily ban it. My argument is that the only circumstances in which rape fantasies are acceptable is in private, and that it does not translate to film. And no, I do not buy the idea that men (or women) who fantasise about perpetrating rape can use porn as an outlet. True, my argument is simply an opinion, but I haven't seen any arguments that are anything but opinion.
No, I haven't seen Irreversible but again I am talking about the pornography genre only. Finally, your argument that it could be replaced by any sexual act sounds remarkably similar to the argument that making homosexual marriage legal leads to bestiality and pedophilia becoming legal. We should be able to be discretionary, we can't always cater to the lowest common denominator.
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The point was that you hadn't made an argument, not that you were wrong. We know going to homosexuality there is absurd, that's the point. You haven't explained why rape in porn is bad, just said you don't like it, and we all know there are people who don't like homosexuals.
You've also said that you think rape fantasies are only acceptable in private, but you still haven't said why, which is crucial to discussion. Why should we be allowed discretion, why is rape worse/better than a dude doing a dude up the bum?
For example, I would consider supporting a ban on rape in porn because, besides my personal view that it's deplorable and degrading, I believe that seeing rape in such a context can give it some validity in the mind of a someone viewing, and could make it easier for such a person to later rationalize rape when they see someone they want but can't have.
That's something of an argument as to why rape porn is a negative influence on society to a degree where it might need to be banned.
A bunch of people stating opinions is kind of lame, we need to know why you feel the way you do for anything interesting to come of discourse. Opinions should have some thought process behind them.
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Is your proposition, Slick, that porn films have a greater influence on the decision-making of their audiences than do non-porn films? Violent and misogynist characterizations are rather prevalent in our culture. Do we have to ban them as well, because they also "make it easier for such a person to later rationalize rape when they see someone they want but can't have"? What's so special about porn?
That there's no implied judgment of the act by the film's creator; that it's a fantasy portrayed in a "realistic" manner, with either unrealistic or absent consequences... these conditions are present in widely-viewed, non-pornographic films--though very rarely in regard to rape, much more likely in regard to murder or drug use. Such actions have been successfully stripped of their psychological trauma and glamorized, escaping the stigma that still sticks to rape. In my view, a ban on such "rape fantasies" in film boils down to enforcing a moral standard.
Now, what I'm not saying is that the only reason we object to rape is the stigma attached to it; I'm firmly convinced that it's a grossly immoral act. Nor am I saying something like "I'd rather we had rape, than murder" or anything that might imply that one was worse than the other, or one more OK. But isn't there a hypocrisy in banning a simulated rape fantasy in film, when what amounts to simulated murder fantasies are commonplace?
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He prefaced it with "for example," so I'm guessing that's not necessarily his personal view but rather just a demonstration of what would constitute a valid argument.
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I'm going to do YET ANOTHER half-arsed half-drunken post (dammit, this is a terrible habit) and simply say: I have discussed these topics with myself so much I don't even know where to start any more. It seems intuitive to me that sometimes rape is realistic in films and sometimes it seems to be for the gratification of sick fuckers and those who don't know it any better. It seems intuitive to me that if we're not going to talk about sex in a candid manner with our kids and if it's going to be "naughty" and "dirty" culturally, and if the whole men-always-want-sex while women-have-to-be-tricked stereotypes are going to be continually shoved down our throats and then if on top of that mainstream porn is gonna be extremely objectifying, borderline violent and apparently no fun for anyone then it's going to create some fucked up ideas about sex in our youth.
And yeah, a large percentage of women have been raped. I would go so far as to say most women have been sexually assaulted in at least a minor way. Sex crimes are almost impossible to convict. Habitually women are disbelieved and judged when they report their attack. It's everywhere, it's not just bogeymen, and we seem to spend most of our time going "la la la I can't heeeear you". So of course with a backdrop like that glorified sexual violence is really fucked up
That is all
P.S. Don't think I'm getting all offended over here, I'm rather enjoying the debate. Mostly I'm just a bit frustrated at my own inability to gather my thoughts. Siiiiigh
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He prefaced it with "for example," so I'm guessing that's not necessarily his personal view but rather just a demonstration of what would constitute a valid argument.
You're right--I think I jumped the gun a little. Sorry about that.
So, then, not so much at Slick anymore (certainly not so argumentatively), but I think my point still stands.
...Of course, saying "my point stands" is a bit ridiculous in the face of anyone's personal experience with rape--I guess such is the case with any debate, really. Keeping an eye for the reality of the issue, it's prevalence in society, and our own ignorance to the facts and their effects (and if we are so fortunate as to be so ignorant, to the experience itself) is a vital part of such an argument. However, discussions about something even one remove from rape itself can and unavoidably will be complicated by a number of social and cultural issues and values.
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This argument is ridiculous.
Rape is one of the very few things where there's no moral gray area. It's bad. It's never acceptable. It shouldn't have a place in porn, because it's being fairly "realistically" depicted.
End.
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Without trying to support either argument, can I introduce the fact that banning something doesn't get rid of it, it just drives it underground and out of the way of official control? Like, for example, prohibition or prostitution.
I'm not saying that banning rape scenes is a bad idea, or that it's a good idea for that matter. Just something to consider, maybe.
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The argument isn't about whether rape has a moral grey area. I'm entirely confident that nobody on here is ever going to try to argue that point.
I entirely agree that rape should not have a place in porn; infact it shouldn't have a place anywhere. However simulated rape scenes in porn are, by definition, not rape. Even if it's being depicted as realistically as possible the actress and actor will have consented (unless of course you are watching a video of an actual rape, but let's assume you're not). This means that you can argue about the abhorrance of rape till you're blue in the face and you still won't be addressing the issue.
The argument here is about whether or not anyone has the right to restrict what rational adults are allowed to view, and without any real evidence pointing towards a causal link (note: not a correlation, also note: there are literally hundreds of studies that conclude there is - almost definitely - not a causal link) between previously well adjusted people watching "rape" pornography and going on to rape women I'm going to say that nobody has any right to tell me what I can and cannot watch or do in private.
And if you're going to ban any kind of porn on the basis that it promotes sexism and the idea of women as objects you're going to have to ban a complete fuckload of TV.
p.s. This post wasn't directed at red lion, just as a response to his post. We can still be homies, dogg.
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/0bsessions/Random%20Forum%20Junk/PatrickNeverFunny.jpg)
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Without trying to support either argument, can I introduce the fact that banning something doesn't get rid of it, it just drives it underground and out of the way of official control? Like, for example, prohibition or prostitution.
I'm not saying that banning rape scenes is a bad idea, or that it's a good idea for that matter. Just something to consider, maybe.
See, I agree with the argument but it's simply not applicable in this case IMO. I think the fact that rape is tacitly acceptable according to the mainstream conciousness (ie: everyone knows rape is awful but it's not rape if she was a prostitute/she was drunk/she consented to act a but not act b) puts us in a position of not being able to be wishy washy when it comes to things like this
The argument isn't about whether rape has a moral grey area. I'm entirely confident that nobody on here is ever going to try to argue that point.
Well you're possibly over-optimistic as you can find arguments about rape being a grey area in pretty much all areas of the internet that pause to discuss rape. Seriously
And if you're going to ban any kind of porn on the basis that it promotes sexism and the idea of women as objects you're going to have to ban a complete fuckload of TV.
I'm not sure how you get from banning pornography that clearly depicts rape to banning objectifying movies/whatever. Really I'm not :?
I entirely agree that rape should not have a place in porn; infact it shouldn't have a place anywhere. However simulated rape scenes in porn are, by definition, not rape. Even if it's being depicted as realistically as possible the actress and actor will have consented (unless of course you are watching a video of an actual rape, but let's assume you're not). This means that you can argue about the abhorrance of rape till you're blue in the face and you still won't be addressing the issue.
Well the whole point is that it's marketed to people who are aroused by the victim's struggles and fear - not something I personally see as acceptable. I cannot possibly see that people who wish to be involved in rape scenarios as the victim would relate to pornography of such.
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You really think people who are turned on by victimization wouldn't be interested in rape porn? I thought that was kind of the whole point of the whole sub part of the sub/dom scene, what with roleplaying and the lolita movement and safe words.
I agree with you that real rape is unacceptable under any circumstances, but I think criminalizing people who watch rape porn is an unhealthy move as a society--if roleplaying rape scenarios is 100% legal, why should watching porn of such scenarios (which were filmed legally, with consenting actors) be illegal? And again, as other people have mentioned, the censors are going to have to find the thin line between pornography and film: if you can't have a rape scene in pornography, why should we be allowed to have it in film? Is sexual stimulation truly so different from the pleasure we get from high art? Can we have rape scenes in movies, but we're not allowed to enjoy them? Are the thought police going to come hang out on my couch while we watch American History X, taping sensors to my nipples and genitalia during the shower rape scene, just in case?
Certainly, there's something to be said for the argument that desentization to rape is a societal problem, but I think most rape depictions must be either sought out or come with a clear warning (at least anywhere with a movie ratings board). Even if you were disgusted by A Clockwork Orange, for example, you were not shocked by it. Surely, particularly if you read the book, you had some idea what was coming. And truly, the desentization argument could me made of much movie content--murder, war, mafiosos, and teen preganacy are all serious systemic problems, but movies are made about such issues daily. For our enjoyment, too!
Rape is a serious issue, doubtless. And I understand that it's one people feel emotional enough about that sometimes rational debate is not only difficult but impossible. But I don't think you can fairly single out and demonize rape porn enthusiasts (which, again, I'm not, just for the record) without ignoring a host of at-least-as-serious issues, in the process criminalizing a group of people who, on the whole, are truly enjoying harmless fun.
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On top of all that, even if you banned pornography that depicted 'rape', it's not like it would really prevent people who wanted to see it from finding it. I think we all know as people who are Internet savvy just how pervasive pornography is. Does that make it acceptable? No. But at the same time, it makes the efficacy of any legal action on a tricky subject questionable in the first place.
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If only everyone in society could differentiate between simulation and reality but not every one can. This is the major problem with rape fetishes (?). Some people will take what they see and re-enact the simulation, turn it from a realistic expression into a total reality.
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(pic)
I hate you so much right now.
And I am totally sticking to my guns on that argument, I don't care what kind of shit it gets me from devil's-advocate types.
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If only everyone in society could differentiate between simulation and reality but not every one can. This is the major problem with rape fetishes (?). Some people will take what they see and re-enact the simulation, turn it from a realistic expression into a total reality.
Again, couldn't the same thing be said of depicting murder? I honestly believe that most people are able to differentiate between simulation and reality and that we should not have to be playing to the lowest common denominator. Rape is already illegal, and rightly so--I understand wanting to catch potential rapists before things happen, but I think this is exactly the wrong way to go about it. There isn't a 1:1 ratio of rape porn watchers and rapists. It's not unlike the post-9/11 American practice of detaining people of middle eastern heritage at airports. So what if we make a bunch of healthy, intelligent, contributing citizens criminals? It's okay, because SOME Muslims are terrorists, and we're SURE to catch them this way.
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(hmm, beaten to it)
If only everyone in society could differentiate between simulation and reality but not every one can. This is the major problem with rape fetishes (?). Some people will take what they see and re-enact the simulation, turn it from a realistic expression into a total reality.
Making allowances for the mentally ill (also small children), I can't really agree with either part of your statement. Because, I think, in the vast majority of cases, what's being simulated is not "real life" at all. Even in porn. Especially in porn. Just because it's displayed "realistically" - low-quality picture, no flying saucers - doesn't mean that what's happening on screen could conceivably happen in a non-artificial environment. Successfully-created realism takes a kind of talent and effort that I guarantee is extremely rare in the porn industry. And even if it does succeed at realism, part of our definition of "rational adult" is being able to accept the discontinuity between simulation and reality.
I'm not ruling out the possibility that watching violent things may have some effect on people, especially children. But it doesn't have the same effect on everybody. I'll draw an analogy to alcohol consumption laws. You can draw a pretty firm relationship between alcohol abuse and some really terrible things (many instances of rape, for example), but you can't say that drinking makes everyone do bad things. So you (try to) regulate it based on age, which you assume is a marker of basic mental development, and prosecute the instances in which it does lead to bad things.
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I'm pretty sure I invented the idea of pocket-fucking. It is where a guy sticks his dick in a woman's pants pocket.
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If only everyone in society could differentiate between simulation and reality but not every one can. This is the major problem with rape fetishes (?). Some people will take what they see and re-enact the simulation, turn it from a realistic expression into a total reality.
Well see the thing is, for the most part rape fetishes and actual rape for the most part are two entirely different entities.
When it comes to actual rape, there is usually some sort of intent for doing harm unto the victim. I have NEVER read about a single instance of rape where the victim was consensual, expectant, or accepting of the rape in ANY way shape or form.
Now on the other hand you have rape as a FETISH. This is almost always (95%+) a premeditated and consensual activity. There is absolutely NO intention of harm or abuse, and there is usually, if not always, a way to stop it if one of the people is suddenly uncomfortable with the situation. I can speak from personal experience as this is something I engage in from time to time. For people who are interested in the fetish, the simulated loss of power and control over the "situation" translate into a huge turn on.
And for the most part, there are communities for meeting people with interest in this particular fetish, as well as self help guides to help people identify with that part of themselves.
As for what influences the fetish, I couldn't say. In my case, it's a passion for the submissive lifestyle, but each person is different.
So from my understanding of the topic, any poor bastard that CAN'T tell the difference between the fetish and reality sides of rape is one SERIOUSLY under-educated person. One is performed as an explicit means to do harm unto another, one is meant for physical enjoyment. If it gets out of hand, a girl will say stop or a pre-designated safe word. If you didn't agree on one, it's probably not consensual. Doesn't take a genius to tell the difference.
As for raped performed under the influence, 2 solutions (in my opinion) 1. bust a nut before drinking to get rid of the hormones making you horny in the first place, or drink with a friend that will smack you silly if you ever try anything. I need not worry about either, I drink with my girlfriend (of whom I am fiercely loyal to) and she would whoop my ass if I tried anything while drunk. (or turn it around and rape my silly drunk ass. which is cool with me)
I apologize for my rant, just thought I would interject my opinion as I am one of the RARE men who enjoy this particular fetish.
If I missed anything feel free to call me on it. This is all my opinion and is always open to interpretation.
((First post, sorry for not making a welcome thread. This one just caught my eye. If I broke any rules [yes I did read em] please let me know))
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Man, fuck you for having the most well written first post I've ever seen. Seriously (http://achewood.com/index.php?date=08172007), you have just made everyone else look bad.
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First, thank you torontoguy. I was really interested in a POV from a rape-fetishist. Now, when you say you have a passion for the submissive lifestyle, are you the sub? I got a little obsessed with the idea of 24-7 for a while (I think I am at heart a switch with more enthusiasm for subbing... but my partner is 100% vanilla so I guess I'll live without going there :()
If only everyone in society could differentiate between simulation and reality but not every one can. This is the major problem with rape fetishes (?). Some people will take what they see and re-enact the simulation, turn it from a realistic expression into a total reality.
Well see the thing is, for the most part rape fetishes and actual rape for the most part are two entirely different entities.
When it comes to actual rape, there is usually some sort of intent for doing harm unto the victim. I have NEVER read about a single instance of rape where the victim was consensual, expectant, or accepting of the rape in ANY way shape or form.
Now on the other hand you have rape as a FETISH. This is almost always (95%+) a premeditated and consensual activity. There is absolutely NO intention of harm or abuse, and there is usually, if not always, a way to stop it if one of the people is suddenly uncomfortable with the situation. I can speak from personal experience as this is something I engage in from time to time. For people who are interested in the fetish, the simulated loss of power and control over the "situation" translate into a huge turn on.
And for the most part, there are communities for meeting people with interest in this particular fetish, as well as self help guides to help people identify with that part of themselves.
Let me just clarify that I have absolutely no problem with the above. I can't say I personally relate to it, but it is a more honest sexuality than what's pimped by the mainstream anyway
So from my understanding of the topic, any poor bastard that CAN'T tell the difference between the fetish and reality sides of rape is one SERIOUSLY under-educated person. One is performed as an explicit means to do harm unto another, one is meant for physical enjoyment. If it gets out of hand, a girl will say stop or a pre-designated safe word. If you didn't agree on one, it's probably not consensual. Doesn't take a genius to tell the difference.
Ahh, but I don't think that argument really addresses desensitisation (with porn as one of the media). Truly, desensitisation is a discussion I am loathe to touch in real life for it generally does lead to people patting each other on the back over the idea of banning all violent video games/other stuff that really disturbs me. But it is real, and against the backdrop of almost accepted sexual violence I think we need to treat glorified sexual violence differently to other violence - no one ever blames the victim for being robbed, beaten or having their throat cut. Women are routinely blamed for being raped.
Look forward to hearing more from you :wink:
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I agree with you that real rape is unacceptable under any circumstances, but I think criminalizing people who watch rape porn is an unhealthy move as a society--if roleplaying rape scenarios is 100% legal, why should watching porn of such scenarios (which were filmed legally, with consenting actors) be illegal? And again, as other people have mentioned, the censors are going to have to find the thin line between pornography and film: if you can't have a rape scene in pornography, why should we be allowed to have it in film? Is sexual stimulation truly so different from the pleasure we get from high art? Can we have rape scenes in movies, but we're not allowed to enjoy them? Are the thought police going to come hang out on my couch while we watch American History X, taping sensors to my nipples and genitalia during the shower rape scene, just in case?
I just cannot believe that fetishising rape (as a consensual activity... man, there's no succinct way to say that), which can be healthy within certain bounds, is particularly closely linked to enjoying rape porn. I believe that as a rape fetishist you must surely have a close emotional relationship with the concept, and thus that porn including rape would seldom resemble that which the fetishise - just as consensual sex generally does not resemble true rape.
I guess if I were to qualify I would support a bill banning professional productions of simulated penetrative rape scenes in pornographic movies. Sure, that's a highly limited definition and easy to get around. But I still think it would harm nought and to me make it slightly more difficult to tip toe toward justification of enjoying rape (as the perpetrator)
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What I meant was that rape fetishes are controlled and are therefore a simulation. In rape there is an uncontrolled desire and willingness for total dominance on a subconscious level.
Hell, I'm probably wrong. I have no formal education in psychology and only a passing interest as well as living a sheltered life.
[fAlso, that post was made to try and find out some more from people. There's no such thing a s a dumb statement. They only ever bring up far more answers than expected. Like with teachers, ask/say one thing and you get 5 others
Welcome to the forum torontoguy, it's good to hear/see people speak so openly about their sexuality. Also, that's not a rant, too well focused.
Banning violent/pornographic things is a cop out. In relation to children, it's the parents who should be protecting them not the censorship boards. If anything we should regulate advertising. Seriously, tampon adverts during a children's movie wtf channel nine?
Violence and sex have always been a key part of human society. Shows like Underbelly and a lot of the games Rockstar releases fill that key part of our society that epics and penny dreadfuls once did. it'd be great if we didn't have to rely on shock value but we've always loved that.
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Banning violent/pornographic things is a cop out. In relation to children, it's the parents who should be protecting them not the censorship boards. If anything we should regulate advertising. Seriously, tampon adverts during a children's movie wtf channel nine?
Haha. I have two problems with this post. (God, I'm annoying me with my nitpicking). (a) Banning rape scenes in pornography has nothing to do with children. (b) What the fuck is wrong with tampon adverts during children's movies? God forbid your kids should be aware of menstruation? Of nooooes :roll:
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Haha. I have a problems with this post. (God, I'm annoying me with my nitpicking). you mean "O nooooes", not "Of nooooes" :-D
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Arh! Damn you all! The more I proof-read, the worse I get... :-o
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Read the tiny type if you don't understand what I'm doing.
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Firefox and spell check are my friends.
And yeah I am a submissive. Strangely enough I was completely unaware of this until I got with my current girlfriend and boy did she turn my world upside down!
Damn I love that girl :P
Anyway, as for desensitizing, I do believe it to be a small issue, but at the same time, a little common sense, when used properly, can do a person a whole lot of good and save them from many a horrible situation.
For example, just because I played EVERY Grand Theft Auto game out there dozens of times (and have become quite numb to violence in general) does not mean I am going to go out, throw some old lady out of her car, drive like a madman and kill hundreds of people. That's just DUMB
So, if I see some guys raping a girl in a porno, I wouldn't even consider going out and raping some chick (My submissiveness set aside here) it's just common sense to realize that something is FANTASY or FAKE. It might not bother me as much as the first time I ever saw it, but I was raised to know the difference between reality and fantasy, no matter what the medium.
So, I do believe people can become desensitized to things yeah, but it all boils down to the decisions we make as individuals based on our own perspective of common sense. And if it's a really fucked up perspective, there are only 3 people in the world that can ultimately be blamed. Mom, Dad, and yourself.
If any of that made sense I am glad. It's 7am and I stayed up all night listening to Chrome with my girlfriend. pretty awesome stuff, but I swear I feel like a zombie >_<
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I blame GTA IV, personally.
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So, I do believe people can become desensitized to things yeah, but it all boils down to the decisions we make as individuals based on our own perspective of common sense. And if it's a really fucked up perspective, there are only 3 people in the world that can ultimately be blamed. Mom, Dad, and yourself.
By and large I agree with what you say, that the important thing is not to censor but to create attitudes within people that mean no potential ill effects could arise from something like rape in pornography. However, I do have a problem with this part. By saying that the only people that blame can be attached to are the parents and the individual you admit the influence of outside influences on the formation of a person in the form of the parents, but you dismiss any others. This doesn't make much sense to me. Your parents might be around a lot but you're constantly within society unless you live a peculiarly sheltered life (which is not a healthy thing). So why can't the attitudes presented and reinforced by that society be a major influence?
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By saying that the only people that blame can be attached to are the parents and the individual you admit the influence of outside influences on the formation of a person in the form of the parents, but you dismiss any others. Why can't the attitudes presented and reinforced by that society be a major influence?
Well outside influences can have an impact on a person yes, but while you are growing up, it's the responsibility of the parent's for the most part to put these various outside influences into a perspective that makes sense. But with society in general, that can be a daunting task for most parents and quite a few end up giving up on trying to make sense of the world and leave it up to the child's own judgment. Thus when a parent stops trying to put a younger person's worldly experiences into a more understandable perspective, outside influences will start to have a MUCH larger impact on that person. So I still stick to my beliefs that parents are ultimately responsible for how a person, especially in earlier stages of life, develops his or her attitude towards things. The biggest example I can use from my own life is how my father would ALWAYS impress upon me that no matter WHAT the situation, it is NEVER right to hit a woman. I would see it in movies, music videos, and rarely in real life. Had my father NOT drilled that firm belief into my brain, I very well could have considered hitting women to be an appropriate thing to do in several situations. I was taught what is right and what isn't by my parents. MANY times there were situations I thought one way about that were put into a proper context by them, so that I would PROPERLY understand why I should or should not do or like certain things.
So while the outside world can provide a heavy influence on a person, as long as your parents help you develop a proper set of morals that you maintain, you should be able to avoid even considering that something like rape is socially accepted.
I don't think it's so much about direct simulation as a subtle change of thought over time. Your mindset can change dramatically after changing your input from the rest of the world (see: people turn into fucking idiots by watching Fox News all day), and I think watching a lot of rape porn ultimately ends up changing the viewpoint on how the woman experiences rape
Now this I don't really agree with.
I have watched ALOT of rape porn. ever since I discovered that this was a fetish for me, I have become more interested in the way porn does it. Most of it is pretty garbage and if you pay attention to what you're watching, you can see the small, subtle signs of the female actor being in complete control of the situation. (This goes for most porn in general. Do yourselves a favor, next vid you watch, watch her eyes and hands very carefully. There are very small usually unnoticed signs the girl will give to the male actor to inform him of what she is or is not comfortable with) But I digress, I have watched plenty of rape porn. so under this string of logic, I should be thinking to myself that all women are sluts and that every woman I will ever encounter will secretly enjoy being raped. This is however the farthest thing from the truth you could get. I totally understand that each and every scenario in porn is very fake and scripted, and that in the REAL world, rape is NEVER[/b] acceptable and that the woman will NOT enjoy it. If someone was willing to do some research and NOT blindly follow his cock, he would see that a PROPER rape scenario between two people that DOESN'T land you in jail is premeditated and discussed previously by BOTH people. Any idiot out there that justifies rape as being ok simply because he saw it in porn a bunch of times and eventually assumed it was an acceptable practice is a simple minded fucking moron. Men that say "Oh all women are sluts and are always asking to be raped by dressing skanky" are simply fishing for an excuse to have their actions justified because they were too fucking stupid to tell the simple difference between fantasy and reality.
Anyway, I apologize for the more abrasive tone to my argument near the end, I just have a problem with men who justify any sort of abuse towards a woman as acceptable or right. It just sickens me.
I blame GTA IV, personally.
I wouldn't know. My PS3 died on the day of release. Had the damn game pre-ordered too >_<
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The problem is that you can't possibly talk to your child about everything. There's just too much in the world and too little time in the day. You can guide them and try to be a good influence but you can't be the only influence unless you try to withdraw your child from society, and things beyond your control can prevent you even being the primary influence in how your child sees the world. Also, you have the problem that the parent is in society and is being shaped by it, and as soon as your child leaves your home you can't exert as much influence as you once did. I'm not saying that parents don't have a responsibility to try and raise their kids with good values, but they're not doing it in a vacuum. They and their children are constantly influenced in one way or another by the wider society, and I think that's a far more powerful influence on behaviour than any single individual can be.
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This debate has no meaning. People shall still furiously masturbate to various types of pornography.
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My penis is this long:
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And this wide:
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Not to any specific scale.
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My penis is this long:
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And this wide:
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At a 1 to 1 scale.
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direct simulation
exposed
You forgot to talk about how harmful messages can penetrate innocent minds.
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My penis is this long:
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And this wide:
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(http://imgs.xkcd.com/store/imgs/actual_size_200.png)
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I don't know Torontoguy - I like your answers, but I think you're giving people too much credit. And I would much rather change attitudes than ban anything (just like I despise the controversial elements of GTA but wouldn't ban it - I just wish you could play the game as a female protagonist, with no killing hookers or at least the availability of male hookers - ha, really I just wish people could enjoy violent games without wanting to involve fucking women in their jollies) but since those attitudes have been around for such a long, long time and aren't really abating that much I feel a line should be drawn.
The fact is, you're an educated consumer. You're no rapist. But IMO most people (I say people for I truly believe it's the human condition - it's just that it's usually men put in this situation) would rape if put in the right situation, or at the very least stand by and say nothing. I can understand rape as it occurs in war (as the most extreme example of being drawn into it) but despise the perpetrators no less for it.
Realistically, the chances of you going to jail for raping a women is very slim. The conviction rate is well below half, and if it's not stranger-rape (of course the least common) the chances of the woman being believed is ridiculously low. I'm all in support of reporting but I wouldn't. It's not worth the pain. A woman was gang-raped at 17 years old by a bunch of cops, convicted them years later. Fought and fought and fought, was labelled a liar. Finally convicted 2 out of 4 of them, they got 8 years and now they're getting out after 3 years in prison.
If someone succeeds in raping me I will kill them or myself. Or possibly both. I own knives, I have no problem cutting arteries and frankly I'd love to beat a rapist to death. Unfortunately I cannot be partisan on this subject as I have two choices of emotion when discussing rape - overwhelming, function-destroying terror or blinding rage. I choose blinding rage.
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TRUE FACT: 10 people at my school have not slept since GTAIV's release.
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TRUE FACT: 10 people at your school need to get some fresh air.
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To the whole rape in porn-thingy, you will not, ever, rape someone if you have the right morals implanted. This is why it's so extreamly important for adults to teach their children that forcing someone into sex is never okay. Ever.
I wouldn't want rape porn to be less legal than the rest of the porn industry. The biggest problem with porn isn't that it deranges women, but that women is forced into doing it (just like prostitution) because of poverty. I sincerely belive that pornography and prostitution should not exist in societies where poverty exists, because then the majority of the women and men in it is people who have to because of economy. And having to use your body to earn money unless you are completely comfortable with it is, is not something anyone should have to go through, ever. Of cource, there's the argument that some men can't get laid, ever, and need the prostitutes and porn to have a sex-life. But this is a microscopic bit of the customers. Most are just normal men that has a horny side that isn't satesfied with what they have at the moment. They do not need it, but they use the women as cheap entertainment.
Desiering women (especially naked ones. hurr hurr) is never wrong, it's just that you should desire them as willing sex-partners, not pussy and boobs.
I cannot imagine how boring it would be to sleep with a woman that lies down, spreads her legs, and screams like a fucking pig being slaughtered slowly. Porn-sounds are terribly creepy, really, most people I know just turn of the frigging sound.
I have always wondered how stupid someone must feel when they do hentai-voiceovers.
On top of all that, even if you banned pornography that depicted 'rape', it's not like it would really prevent people who wanted to see it from finding it.
mhm, completely on the spot. Think of Pedophilia, it's out there, for the sick and disgusting people that will search for it. That being said, I think pedophilia is far, far worse than rape porn, since the whole rape-roleplay thing is okay if both parts agree to it.
I'm pretty sure I invented the idea of pocket-fucking. It is where a guy sticks his dick in a woman's pants pocket.
I just started thinking of the Norwegian "lommemannen" (the pocket man). He removed the... errr.... stuffing in his pocket, so the pocket was only a hole. Then he asked smal children to help him find his keys or something in his pocket. Thus resulting in them touching his man-parts. He abused the nature of smal children to be nice and helpfull. Just a digression, not on topic, but still, it shows how sick people can be. So, for the sake of hundreds of kids that has been abused by a stranger for over 10 years before they got the fucker, the combination of pocekts and fuckin is never funny.
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I cannot imagine how boring it would be to sleep with a woman that lies down, spreads her legs, and screams like a fucking pig being slaughtered slowly. Porn-sounds are terribly creepy, really, most people I know just turn of the frigging sound.
See my earlier posts on this thread. In good porn (read: porn involving legitimately real orgasms) the visuals are secondary (for me anyway).
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To the whole rape in porn-thingy, you will not, ever, rape someone if you have the right morals implanted. This is why it's so extreamly important for adults to teach their children that forcing someone into sex is never okay. Ever.
I feel as though we fundamentally disagree on our perceptions of the world. Not that I think it is unimportant for parents to teach morals, but I also believe coming to your own moral conclusions is important and that 'moral implantation' is not necessarily enough to prevent rape. Extreme circumstances could brake said morals and I don't think telling someone something is wrong can always work, especially if those telling are resented.
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of cource you are right. But first your last point, extreme circumstances. Extreme circumstances that often lead to rape is anarchy (or something close), war and humanitarian crisises. And this isn't stuff that will happen to the average porn-viewing guy, especially the one digging up stuff on the internett.
And I do not believe that you should not come to your own moral conclusions. But it's really important to get into children and teens minds that sex is something you agree to. I'm not sure about the numbers, but a lot of rapes is really drunk teen girls at parties that get's boned by a little less drunk guys. And at some point of drunkedness, you are either unable to understand what's going on, or unable to tell the guy humping you that you don't want to do this at all. It's still rape.
And since this can happen with people from 16 years old and down, when everybody hasn't exactly thought 100% through their morales, it's important for them to have some implanted, if only temporary ones. It's important to think for yourself, it's also important to listen to your folks.
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You're pulling up stats, don't do that unless you know.
I take issue with the notion that "you will not, ever, rape someone if you have the right morals implanted". I disagree, and think people can. Ordinary people can do and have done awful things under the right (wrong) circumstances. Morals aren't the sole factor in making many people's decisions, so I don't think they're sufficient to prevent rape.
Also, is english your first language? Is it rude for me to be pointing out your grammatical mistakes?
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Not as bad as it is in Australia by the looks of it.
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TRUE FACT: 10 people at your school need to get some fresh air.
TRUE FACT: Joseph Hocking discovers that the kettle really is black, joins forces with the pot
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Man, I know all about spending too much time playing video games, but going without sleep for over a week is just fucking ridiculous, even if you're going to school in between sessions. No game is worth that.
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Man, I know all about spending too much time playing video games, but going without sleep for over a week is just fucking ridiculous, even if you're going to school in between sessions. No game is worth that.
Amen to that.
Yet my girlfriend still insists on calling me a WoW fag >_< (And I ignore ANY game, including WoW, for her on a regular basis)
Anyway, I understand that extreme circumstance can affect anyone into do anything, but I still firmly believe that having a firm moral structure in place can at least aid in hampering any bad decisions from happening. They will never be able to stop bad things from happening completely, but they can help.
I just don't believe that watching one specific thing over and over will eventually brainwash you into doing it. That's the main thing I disagree with here.
But there are so many factors that can ultimately instigate the instance at which a person decides to rape someone that there is no definite way to ever prevent it. Unfortunately.
Not too sure what else to say on the matter.
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For Christmas last year, me and my now-exgirlfriend exchanged handmade "fantasy coupons" where we told each other a fantasy, and could redeam the ticket at any time to act out the fantasy. Guess what her's was? Yup, a rape fantasy. This was really really really awkward for me. I'm a nice guy, and I like to think I was raised well with a healthy respect for god and women. When she actually redeamed the ticket, I wasn't really sure what to do. I mean, I pushed her around a bit on the bed, but couldn't hit her or anything beyond a playful smack on the bottom. I didn't really know what to do, and I think I kind of let her down. I didn't really know how far to take it, and wasn't really comfortable, but I did my best at what I think she wanted. I think the nice slow lovemaking that came after was much more enjoyable, for me and for her. I wish we would have talked about it a bit more now in hindsight, so I'd have a bit more understanding why she picked that as her fantasy, but unfortunately we broke up when I moved 1/2 way across the country shortly after and haven't talked much since.
Too bad really, because we were working out the mechanics of my fantasy, which was to have a 3rd or 4th party watch at some point when we had sex. Too bad for me :(
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This was really really really awkward for me. I'm a nice guy, and I like to think I was raised well with a healthy respect for god and women. When she actually redeamed the ticket, I wasn't really sure what to do.
man I don't know what I would do either. Once my gf asked me to smother her with a pillow (she was curious to experience that, don't ask me why) and that was extremely awkward.
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nah man, it wasn't during sex, she just randomly asked one afternoon. She must've been thinking about it before I walked in, but I have no idea why. Anyway it was a long time ago, she probably doesn't even remember it.
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my girlfriend finds all sexual experiences with (http://achewood.com/index.php?date=09202005) me quite forgettable.
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You're pulling up stats, don't do that unless you know.
I take issue with the notion that "you will not, ever, rape someone if you have the right morals implanted". I disagree, and think people can. Ordinary people can do and have done awful things under the right (wrong) circumstances. Morals aren't the sole factor in making many people's decisions, so I don't think they're sufficient to prevent rape.
Also, is english your first language? Is it rude for me to be pointing out your grammatical mistakes?
First, as said, I'm Norwegian. And I'm better than most people, which is rather bad, because I have a lot of flaws. I think some of the mistakes might be because I've just had an mock exam in german for which I read a hell of a lot, so my English has probably been influenced. It's not rude to point them out, just if you bother, do it in a PM, for obvious reasons. Because I always want to improve my English.
Okay, I'm pulling back the, if I said something in the direction of it "you will not rape if you have the right morals implanted". The right thing to say would be "you will be less likely to rape if you have the right morales implanted". I just believe that if you have those morals implanted, you have something to fall back on. I do not know what triggers someone into raping, but I'll try to guess.
Say someone is alone, sad and a bit druk, and extreamly horny. And sees a good-looking girl, walking alone, dressed in not too much, and in a dark alley. Now, if this guy has been told by his parents or whoever he grew up with that rape is wrong, he will probably not rape her. Probably. If he hasn't been told that, society and it's not-so-charming woman-view and possible rape porn, can just tip him over the edge to the mindsett needed to rape.
Seriously, this counts for all cases, parents must implant morals into their childs subconscious. If these morales are wrong, the person will, when older, be able to change them through logic thinking. But somebody taught to respect women and sexuality, will be less likely to do something like rape. Or hip-hop videoes, but that's another discussion.
PS: I always write these things from a male perspective (like "he will/will not rape) since the majority of rapes is done by men.
PSPS: And I haven't added my gender to my profile? ohmygosh, will do now. I'm a man.