THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)
Comic Discussion => QUESTIONABLE CONTENT => Topic started by: alib on 24 Jun 2008, 10:44
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I'm now coming out of the woodwork to share an article I read today on Faye. It's from one year ago so I hope it hasn't already been posted. I found it interesting because I can see where the author is coming from but at the same time it's quite ridiculous. Maybe it's because I have a similar shape to Faye and actually kinda look like one of the Faye transitions. Same hair, glasses, and double ear piercing, same in-your-face-but-don't-hurt-me attitude...Well, I don't have the claim to bustiness that Faye has. Anyhoo, just wondering what other people think of the article. Also, QC is probably my favorite comic.
http://fatlyyours.blogspot.com/2007/02/fat-female-characters-part-i-faye.html (http://fatlyyours.blogspot.com/2007/02/fat-female-characters-part-i-faye.html)
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Jacques further ponders: "I often wonder if low self-esteem is a result of outside stimuli or if people find things to feel bad about because they're looking for something to fixate on. Probably both I guess." I suppose it is both. However, I wonder why he felt the need to draw a number of skinny female characters, then draw one woman a bit heavier and give her a negative body image. If Faye were truly sassy, it would be awesome. She would probably feel good about her weight. She would shrug off any comments about it and wouldn't be depressed by her growing pants size. She would realize it's unrealistic to try to be like Dora. I would love to see a character like that.
while i do dig the premise of the analysis, i can't honestly agree with her because she pushes all of these good "sassy" qualities off onto a ficticious character and doesn't relate it back to virtues that real people can use. yea, sometimes faye feels bad about her weight. is she morbidly obese? no.
if Deniselle wants to feel "relaxed in her body" like she states on her blog than why would she get worked up over a comic? getting angry over http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=498 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=498) just shows insecurity. how can you seriously get angry over remarks made by turkeys?
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I really think its over the top to write such an article on a comic in the first place...
and the examples in the second last part of the article is a bit off too, because, after those two comes http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=354
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I see no need to place the interpretation which that article does on the size of Faye in QC. It's just someone's insecurities showing...
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Eating a healthy diet and getting some exercise would be a lot simpler and more direct way for her to feel relaxed in her body than trying to campaign for everyone else in the world to accomidate her insecurities. Plus it would be more fun.. and if she picked up biking to work instead of driving, better for the environment, cheaper, and fight road congestion!
No, I don't think everyone should be rail thin. I'm not rail thin. Sure it's silly to be obsessed with being rail thin. About as silly as it is to get upset about a comic character's physique.
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man, that girl spent waaaaay too much time putting that together.
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I see no need to place the interpretation which that article does on the size of Faye in QC. It's just someone's insecurities showing...
Well, this is that woman's blog and she can interpret anything she wants to. But I also agree that she is showing off some of her insecurities with the entry. The jokes are funny and Faye can sure hold her own. For me it's more of a "why would they think she's fat?" instead of a "Oh my hell, I'm so insulted."
I guess I posted this link because I found it rather curious that this woman would have this kind of in depth analysis of the comic. And yeah, she did have way too much time putting that together.
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I'm now reading the rest of this lady's rants.
Right now I'm on one where she talks about how "moderation" is another way of saying "deprivation".
I'm going to feel bad about this later, probably.
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I'm now reading the rest of this lady's rants.
Right now I'm on one where she talks about how "moderation" is another way of saying "deprivation".
I'm going to feel bad about this later, probably.
I didn't bother reading her other stuff, maybe I should. I could use a good giggle every now and then.
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The thing that gets overlooked literally EVERY TIME some girl gets upset about Faye's body-image issues or the way I portray her is that SHE IS THE BIGGEST LOVE INTEREST IN THE COMIC. Marten spent what, FIVE HUNDRED STRIPS lusting after her? She had absolutely no trouble hooking up with Sven, whom I have clearly written to have unrealistic, ridiculous standards for ladies? Angus is possibly OBSESSED with her? Hell even Dora has made it clear that, were Faye to swing that way, she would happily make out.
Faye may be uncomfortable with her body but the one thing I definitely do not portray her as is unattractive or undesirable.
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In closing, I am a sexist pig and women need to get back in the kitchen where they belong.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2294/2119560538_e9aa01c1c6_o.jpg)
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Jeph, I hope you don't think I'm calling you sexist because in no way was I. I just put it up as a funny thing for people to read. I think if you spoke to most girls they would find Faye downright awesome and the heckling she gets is hilarious because she can dish it back out. I love that you made her character the way she is. If I were a comic character I think I'd find it pretty awesome to be her because she is quite a woman. :-) And don't let this lady get to you. You've got talent with thousands of readers and it took a whole year for someone to aknowledge her blog. I really put it up to laugh that there are women out there that rant and rave about things like this. In no way would a rational person find how you have made Faye sexist. I'm sorry I put this up since it upset you.
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Oh, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I'm just greatly amused by the utter fallacy of the argument.
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Hmm... I don't think taking the time to flesh out characters and speculate on what things could mean is a waste of time, though I am an English major :P
I think mostly, Faye being surrounded by skinny people is a circumstantial thing. My sister's one friend is about average, not even chubby but all her friends are these really skinny asian girls so she's more self-conscious even though she's beautiful and sweet. I'm not even making allowances for her, she gets hit on like crazy at the bars. Jeph does draw other girls with similar figures. There was that one blonde waitress Faye insulted when she was drinking with Sven. Ellen and Amanda don't seem all that skinny either.
If anything, I think Jeph is poking fun at obsessive female insecurities. He got it exactly right with Raven being self-conscious about the stretch marks on her breasts and then later realizing that boys don't care about that when they're getting some.
Who doesn't worry about their weight? I'm 5"3 and I weight about 113lbs and I'm okay with that. I do weights and run but... that doesn't mean I don't feel fat sometimes. If anything, I think it's her neurosis. Hannelore feels pale and sickly. Dora has jealous issues. Raven isn't the brightest crayon in the box. Sven is a man whore and Marten doesn't seem to have a back bone.
Oooh and to go along with the sexist thing... is it just me or does Jeph have a thing for really strong females? Faye and Dora being obvious examples... but Veronica Vance anybody?
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If the blogger really was happy with her size I doubt she'd be making such a huge deal of it...
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I've skimmed over a couple of that person's articles and they're by no means subjective. Like anyone else who's essentially commenting on how their kind are portrayed, no matter what the trait in question is, they interpret things differently than the creator intended to emphasize their case. She's definitely reading into it more than necessary, ignoring the positive aspects of the character, and biased.
Yes, you may be larger than most people, but it's something you have to live with. You can't take everything complete strangers on the internet create as personal insults.
And that blog's even more analytical of the comic than most WCT threads. (That doesn't happen often.)
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lol its obvious alib wrote that and just wanted to plug her shit.
its ridiculous.
Oh, and I always knew Jeph was a sexist. I quote from a 2004 Comic thread:
"oh btw, I'm a sexist"
Excelleennnttt.
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it's a shame that she has comment moderation on her website. :-(
she still saw my comment "fat children don't deserve paternal love", probably.
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Bitchs need to stay skinny
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lol its obvious alib wrote that and just wanted to plug her shit.
its ridiculous.
Oh, and I always knew Jeph was a sexist. I quote from a 2004 Comic thread:
"oh btw, I'm a sexist"
Excelleennnttt.
Lol. Completely obvious I wrote that. :roll: Don't you just love my blog picture?
And Jeph, I'm relieved this didn't bother you. I was driving home with one of my friends last night and I told him I felt so bad that I may have upset you by posting this thing on the forums.
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Jeph, I don't think you are a sexist at all. I mean, I'm really into feminism, and I have never thought you were sexist.
But I can see where this girl is coming from. Being fat myself, I always thought it was pretty funny that Faye was considered fat. She looks barely any different than the other girls, yet she is the fat one. I mean, I can see that she is a little chubby, but I would never call her fat.
I never thought it was a problem though. I mean, it's a comic! There are fucking anthropomorphic computers in it!
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From the other characters perspective Faye is fat. She isn't like morbidly obese. There is nothing wrong with her being chunky, this article girl is being a stupid fatass. . . I'm fat too, but I'm trying to do something about it, she's just being fat and complaining about how other people view fat people. Faye is a lovely person who has self esteem issues because everyone else around her is skinny. . . its completely logical, no one is saying she's a cow.
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You don't say. The alcoholic with abandonment issues resulting from witnessing the suicide of her father has some self esteem issues that come out as poor body image?
And as for other people calling her fat, I don't think the boys ever call her fat. It's the other girls (well, and the turkeys). In my experience, girls call each other (and themselves) fat a lot, no matter the truth.
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I'm fat too, but I'm trying to do something about it, she's just being fat and complaining about how other people view fat people
Where did she say she wasn't doing anything about her weight? It's not a good idea to assume things.
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Everywhere. She starts off one blog post with "I ate five strips of bacon this morning. It was delicious". She talks about how she's anti-dieting and anti-WLS(Weight Loss Surgery). She even describes herself as a FAP(Fat Acceptance Person). Plus, the blog is called Fatly Yours?
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I'm fat too, but I'm trying to do something about it, she's just being fat and complaining about how other people view fat people
Where did she say she wasn't doing anything about her weight? It's not a good idea to assume things.
I'm not assuming anything. Its exactly what Generic said.
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Oooh also the nursing her aching muscles with ice cream. "I don't mind having a luscious bottom, it's a lush's bottom I'm trying to avoid."
Edit: Sorry, retract this statement. Faye said it and I misread what you guys were discussing above. La la la~
I was telling my friend about the article today. She said, "If the other characters in the story actually thought Faye was fat, everybody would be too conscious to say something about it."
It's true. The one time Marten called Faye an alcoholic everyone went bat-shit crazy.
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I am going to dig myself in a hole here where I am sure comments will probably end up being "STFU fattie!" but....
I don't diet, and think most are stupid, as well. I am also pretty much against WLS, unless the person absolutely needs it.
I think if you want to lose weight you need to work for it. Which is why I'm against WLS. Work it off. Don't just expect your doctors to come save you. If it means that much to you, then actually work for it. Don't be lazy.
Most people don't understand that you have to keep up with a diet for the rest of your life. You can't change the way you eat for a week and expect to drastically change the way you look. You can't go from being a fatty to being skinny with even one month of dieting. And once you do grow(or I guess, shrink) into your ideal body, you can't o back to eating a pound of bacon everyday, and snacking all the time. You have to stick to a diet.
And I like eating bacon! I just because someone enjoys bacon doesn't make them anti-weight loss. I made bacon chocolate chip cookies, for fucks sake!
And who doesn't eat ice cream when they aren't feeling well? I am am pretty sure a lot of people do. It's called a comfort food for a reason.
I don't particularly mind my body. I mean, I'm not super hugely over weight, but I'm not anywhere near skinny either. I exercise, and I enjoy it. Everyone loves my butt. I have a huge "ghetto" booty, and have been told so many time. I enjoy it sometimes. Maybe I'm a freak, or maybe it's because I am fat, but I accept most people, regardless, of weight, height, strength, race, sex, whatever. I don't think that those things matter. Being proud of one's "lush bottom" and accepting fat people is not necessarily a bad thing. Until someone has a quote from this girl saying "Skinny people are gross! Gluttony FTW! EAT! EAT! EAT! Never lose weight! I will never exercise ever!" I won't believe that she doesn't care about her weight.
And having a blog called Fatly Yours means nothing.
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Emaline, I am currently searching for some quotes from the lady which will show you that you are right, but we are right too. And then no one will argue.
Should society cater to my needs if I choose a life of fatness? Yes, I think it should, because it caters to those who choose to diet or live healthy.
So you see, she chooses to maintain her weight and it is society's fault for not accepting that. Therefore, she must not be doing anything about her weight. To further the point, that except is from a blog post called "Why Don't I Just Diet", listing reasons why she does nothing about her weight.
More coming when I'm not busy, but this does show that she wasn't doing anything about her weight
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I am going to dig myself in a hole here where I am sure comments will probably end up being "STFU fattie!" but....
I made bacon chocolate chip cookies, for fucks sake!
I have a huge "ghetto" booty, and have been told so many time. I enjoy it sometimes.
Skinny people are gross! Gluttony FTW! EAT! EAT! EAT!
That's about the extent of what I got out of that wall of text, but honestly you had me at bacon chocolate chip cookies.
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I've always seen the "fat jokes" in the comic as the kind of in-jokes people make when someone is worrying about things un-necessarily. As Jeph says, Faye is the major romantic interest in the comic. All the guys think she is attractive. She knows this, but has confidence and intimacy issues that bring her down.
Fat lady is overly sensitive. Fat lady is projecting. Fat lady is fat.
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est's post is also funny if you replace lady with cat. Lol
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Ugh. I hate the 'moderation is deprivation' line. Think about it, kids; we curb our desires in things we want in plenty of different ways. A lot of us control drinking, or smoking, or the number of sexual partners, so as to do what is emotionally and physically healthier for us. Just because food has become the center of a huge media debate and many people's self-worth, we're suddenly expected to not show restraint, despite the fact that a higher weight can cause health risks? (And don't bother telling me that that's association and not causation, anyone, because I'm smart enough to not fall for it.)
Weight isn't the only issue portrayed in this way; alcohol is a huge issue, with celebrities succumbing to it, and amongst teenagers promiscuity is often depicted as a sign of popularity. Both are open to debate; some would argue that a certain amount of a certain type of alcohol can be beneficial (in fact, a lot of research is beginning to suggest this) and that sex with multiple partners is fine, as long as it is safe sex and we can deal with the emotional aspect. Fine. But everybody knows their limits in this area and knows what becomes damaging.
So why, why, is it to sinful to curb your eating suddenly? Why do I get told I'm dieting when in fact I'm only eating what makes me feel content, and not what my eyes-bigger-than-my-stomach would have me consume?
Faye eats what she likes, and decided to take the route of excercise to try and lose weight. Might Faye encounter health problems because of her weight? At the moment, it doesn't seem likely, but at an older age when estrogen levels fluctuate and weight shifts to the stomach rather than hips, it could be an issue for her. Who knows?
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There's only so many fat jokes I can take in one sitting.
Hehe. Fatty make a funny.
No, I do not believe in a stickman world either. But all this time that fat lady spent in (over-)analyzing whether the fat character should be fatter could have well been spent working on the spares which fat lady is carrying around with her.
In her comment on other person's comment, she says she feels that a fat acceptance blog is necessary due to all the diet / anti-fat blogs.
Now that she says it, I have a strong urge to open a blog both defending the social importance and vehemently denying the health hazards of smoking.
Plus, being the "one" plus-sized character / person in a group is only a problem if you make it one. People who are truly comfortable in their bodies won't care at all what others have to say about their figure. I'm not small but neither am I extraordinarily big - and I have been mostly slim / skinny since ten years or so. But even in my chubby phases I feel okay. Which means anyone trying to tease me with my body shape or weight would get no reaction from me in return. Certainly not a 4-page essay about a web comic character who would be getting laid like Wilt Chamberlain if she wanted to.
If (and I'm not saying there is) - but if there is a hidden message about Faye and her body type, it's certainly not about her being less attractive.
Other than that, stephanielikes spoke my soul on the topic.
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Didn't Jeph mention that Faye gets bigger as he gets better at drawing? If this lady thinks it's unrealistic/Jeph's being a sexist, anti-fatty bastard, then she probably doesn't understand the basic concept of cartoons. Either that or we have a shocking lack of people standing up for the rights of all those big-nosed characters out there. I mean, come on, portraying men with gigantic noses while giving women small noses is like the most sexist thing you could ever do ever!
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Hokay. So, I've expressed my views regarding this elsewhere in the past. My views on this are the sort of thing that can get me into trouble, but I do not compromise on them and the one thing that I pride myself about is that I am a very honest person.
In other words, I'm just gonna say it and damn the consequences.
The problem I have with people like this is that they live an unhealthy lifestyle. Sometimes it's a case of laziness and/or gluttony. Sometimes it's a case of just different priorities. And very rarely it's a case of other medical issues manifesting as weight problems.
And if your priorities are different from mine, that's okay. I mean, frankly, I don't prioritize health over everything either. I exercise a fair bit, but I'm also a smoker. So meh. Take that how you will. Some people prioritize food and pleasure over their health, and if that's your choice, then that's absolutely fine. More power to you, fatty.
The thing is, the flip side of personal liberty is personal responsibility. As a smoker, I have to moderate my addiction. There are some places I can't smoke (indoors in any public building). Sometimes I have to go outside and stand out in the cold or the rain or maybe even in a snowdrift. And sometimes if I'm at work or busy in some way I can't get my fix and I have to just suck it up. I do these things without complaint because these are the consequences of my decision. I'm responsible for the inconveniences caused by the choice I made.
Being fat is a choice. There is a very small number of people in this world whose weight is outside of their control, and everyone else has made a decision. It may not be a conscious decision; the rebuttal I always get is that 'nobody wants to be fat.' But the thing is, even if they don't make a conscious choice to be fat, a person who is overweight has made a decision regardless. By not moderating their diet and exercising regularly they've abdicated control over the issue and have therefore decided that they don't care.
So, fattys choose to be fat. And that's fine. Whatever your weight is, if you're happy and comfortable then there's no problem as long as you're willing to accept the consequences. There are a lot of consequences to maintaining an unhealthy weight, and they run the gamut. On the one side you've got potential health issues, like heart disease and high blood pressure. You have to deal with a bias that exists. If you're massively overweight you may have to deal with the fact that a lot of public facilities aren't designed to accommodate you. And yes, ladies, you have to deal with the fact that a lot of men aren't attracted to overweight women too.
Men should hypothetically have to deal with this too, but it seems to be less of an issue; women just don't seem to care about their partner's weight as much.
I personally am not attracted to overweight women. I'm not attracted to super skinny women either exactly, but I prefer a healthy girl over anything, whether she's a slender healthy girl or a curvy healthy girl. I think Faye is portrayed as the latter; she's got hips, but she's not overweight. She may not be fit and healthy in the way that Penny is, but it's also true that at least half the guys in QC-land seem to be lusting after her. And let's be honest here; there aren't a whole lot of men in women in the real world who are fit and healthy in the way Penny is anyway. Most folks find a middle ground.
I'm not especially attracted to Faye either, but that has more to do with the fact that she's a collection of coloured pixels on a screen. I'm sure if I were to meet a real girl who matched the girl-representation that is Faye, I'd be at least moderately interested.
The paragraph above represents the last of the on-topic discussion. You've been warned.
My problem with the fatly yours blog is the same as my problem with the whole fat acceptance movement in general. There is no smokers acceptance movement and I certainly wouldn't be a part of it if there was. Smoking is unhealthy, and a lot of people think it's disgusting. I can dig that, and as long as they don't get in my face when I'm not in theirs I reckon they're entitled to their opinion. I understand that smoking is a bad habit. It's not something to be lauded or admired or accepted. My vice is the result of bad decisions that I made as a younger lad, and that I continue with it stems more from my own bit of laziness; it's not currently worth the necessary effort to quit for me.
Yes, it is possible for a guy who walks 5+ miles per day to be lazy. I'm living proof.
So there's the parallel. Being fat is a choice. You can make that choice if you want to. Feel free to be fat, but know that you'll probably die before the skinny smokers like me. And don't try to bend the rest of the world to accommodate your failing. Being overweight has consequences and you either have to suck it up and deal with it, or quit whining and take up jogging. Those are the choices. Making everyone else change because you can't be bothered doesn't fall into either category.
Special note: Emaline, I say more power to you. What I get from your posts is that you're aware of the complications and consequences of being overweight and that you make that decision anyway and are willing to accept the consequences. You prioritize chocolate chip and bacon cookies over being supermodel skinny and that's okay. Just promise me you'll never utter the phrase 'fat is beautiful' and we can be best friends forever.
What I mean to say is that I'm not unaccepting of fat people. I'm not unaccepting of any people; however you choose to live your life is fine by me. What irks me and what this post is all about is the people who try to change everyone else because it's too much work for them to change themselves. A healthy diet and moderate exercise is all it takes to eliminate obesity. We're talking an hour and a half a week and cutting out some of the junk food some of the time. It's not a complicated thing, and if a person can't even be bothered with that and then goes on to tell me that I'm in the wrong for expecting them to deal with the consequences... well, as you can plainly see, it irritates me to no end.
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Word to your supreme argumentation skills.
I hope that 30 years down the line, she has to fight in court for coverage of obesity-related treatment - and her blog surfaces as court evidence.
Most "fat" people I know have no problem losing weight. My Dad is as tall as me and weighs about 60% more. He used to be a semi-pro soccer player. His weight gain is due to change in lifestyle but NOT out of his control. My sister is a little bit on the chubby side and it's not because she can't lose it - it's because she doesn't control (or want to control, choice-wise) her eating habits and she doesn't work out.
In about 10-15 years, I'll inflate like a balloon if I don't watch what I do - exactly like my Dad. But it is within my means to do something about it.
So fatly up yours.
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I'm not sure if people will take offense to this... or if it's been said yet, as I didn't read the entire thread yet... but the thing that bugs me is that she talks about Faye being as slim as the other girls in the beginning of the comic. I don't think that's a valid point, because I'm pretty sure that even Jeph himself has stated that it's because he wasn't... good enough at drawing different figures and stuff. He didn't know how to portray her as larger/curvier properly or whatever. Through the years she's gotten bigger, yes, but she grows along with Jeph's ability.
Idk, I know a lot of larger people, guys and girls, who make fun of me for being 'Twiggy', so making fun of skinny people may be a cliché but it's true.
That's my two cents.
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Mmmm, yeah. In the first strips, Faye's head was the size of the rest of her body, but you don't see hydrocephalic people blogging about it. I always thought a real-life analog to her would be built like a pin-up; big hips, big rack, but not pudgy.
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Being fat is a choice. There is a very small number of people in this world whose weight is outside of their control, and everyone else has made a decision. It may not be a conscious decision; the rebuttal I always get is that 'nobody wants to be fat.' But the thing is, even if they don't make a conscious choice to be fat, a person who is overweight has made a decision regardless. By not moderating their diet and exercising regularly they've abdicated control over the issue and have therefore decided that they don't care.
Your comment has a great deal of truth in it, but it is actually harder to choose not to be fat over choosing not to smoke. For most people, the choice to smoke is not available to them until they are in their teens. But many obese people are that way because of the type of diet they have had since before they were TWO. I'm sorry, but a toddler doesn't choose to start drinking soda; that is the parent killing their own child. So people who have been fat for most of their lives will have an uphill battle losing that weight and changing their eating habits, unless they have a lot of support from other people. This is why obesity is classified as an epidemic and smoking isn't; obesity is a product of culture and family circumstances, even more so than smoking is. What I'm saying is, fat children often didn't make that choice themselves, and if someone doesn't intervene early, they have increasingly diminishing chances of learning how to lose weight.
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I think it's a webcomic and like any other kind of media, it's about what people want to see. And they want to see some starved looking hipsters demmit.
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to OP:
I didn't think the article had any truth in it at all and I thought it was 100% ridiculous. It honestly sounded like this fat lady projecting her own emotional issues into the comic frame. and from her profile pic I gathered right that she was over-weight. Honestly if someone is over-weight than don't complain if someone critisizes you. Commenting on obesity is NOT racist or anything stupid like that. if someone is over weight than perhaps they should take steps to correct that instead of complaining to the entire world while filling their face with icecream all the time.
disclaimer: No offense to the over-weight people who might read this. I spent alot of my young years as an over-weight kid and I lost all of the weight overtime by changing a few tiny lifestyle habits. So please don't get mad at me. Take what I say with a grain of salt. it CAN be helped.
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I really think its over the top to write such an article on a comic in the first place...
and the examples in the second last part of the article is a bit off too, because, after those two comes http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=354
It's almost like selective memory combined with a certain bias. The author of the blog seems to obscure the facts. It reminds me of the U.S. government. Also, FiskFisk33, I want to let you know that I like your quote.
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"Honestly if someone is over-weight than don't complain if someone critisizes you."
What I guess you meant is "Honestly if someone is overweight then they shouldn't complain if someone criticizes them."
So someone who is overweight shouldn't be offended if someone calls them fat? Even though that is extremely rude and hurtful? What if somebody called you a pimply-faced loser or pointed out that your beard was stupid or your haircut or clothing choice sucked?
All of those are, to an extent, choices you make about the way you look (acne CAN be caused by bad hygeine.)
This isn't me insulting you, because I don't know what you look like, but nobody has the right to degrade anyone's appearance in front of them. It isn't "advice" it is "being a fuckface". It is only advice if they honestly ask you for it.
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I see where that article is coming from, because the writer is probably tired of her weight being considered an issue.
But I disagree. Nobody's ever made fun of Faye for not being skinny, and when her weight is brought up in the comic it's usually Faye bringing it up. You can't deal with the unrealistic, unfair expectations for waifishness society places on women without talking about it. It's just a current fact of our culture. Women of normal weight are made to feel that they're overweight, which leads people to accusing them of being undisciplined eaters or somehow gross. It's better to address the issues of our culture than pretend they don't exist.
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??
People have made fun of Faye for not being skinny. Pen-elope in 754, even if she was just following up on something Faye said. Dora in 170 (and Amanda's remark in the same strip). According to Dora in 751, Raven made a few remarks. Dora called her "squishy-ass" in 118. Eva in 795. I'm not counting 740, because they were roleplaying. 998 might be considered honest feedback, since Faye brought up the subject of bottom-bouncing. The teasing got utterly vicious in 936 where the robots are manipulating her dream.
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Jeph, you sexist pig!
just kidding, i'm going back to the kitchen. would you like your sandwich on wheat? :-D
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Faye also comments on Dora's weight. She comments on her breasts.
There are jokes about hair, about clothing...
it's almost like jokes are made throughout the comment about controllable physical appearance in all directions and people zone in on those made toward's Faye because of society's attitude to weight.
Weird, huh?
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"Honestly if someone is over-weight than don't complain if someone critisizes you."
What I guess you meant is "Honestly if someone is overweight then they shouldn't complain if someone criticizes them."
So someone who is overweight shouldn't be offended if someone calls them fat? Even though that is extremely rude and hurtful? What if somebody called you a pimply-faced loser or pointed out that your beard was stupid or your haircut or clothing choice sucked?
All of those are, to an extent, choices you make about the way you look (acne CAN be caused by bad hygeine.)
This isn't me insulting you, because I don't know what you look like, but nobody has the right to degrade anyone's appearance in front of them. It isn't "advice" it is "being a fuckface". It is only advice if they honestly ask you for it.
well I agree with this but this isn't really what I was getting at.
What I'm talking about is the person who has 6 suppers a day and weighs 400 pounds and sits in front of the TV and tries to protest to the entire world how everyone should be ok with it. It's more spoiled attitudes I'm getting at and this could go for anyone who has an issue in their life. There's being a fuck face and then there IS honest criticism. Those who get enraged at the honest criticism need to really grow-up a bit.
My point in short, this woman said that Jeph said Faye was fat [which he never really did anyways] and this woman flies off the handle about it! It's that kind of attitude that strikes a cord with me.
And judging by her other blog entries and her blog title it honestly seems her ENTIRE BLOG is devoted to bashing people who are "prejuduce against fats". I'm sorry but I don't have anything positive to say to people who won't take steps to correct their own faults and place blame on other people to cover their own tracks.
Honestly? She's fat.... it's true.... if she doesn't wanna hear that from people than she should do something about her weight problems.
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??
People have made fun of Faye for not being skinny. Pen-elope in 754, even if she was just following up on something Faye said. Dora in 170 (and Amanda's remark in the same strip). According to Dora in 751, Raven made a few remarks. Dora called her "squishy-ass" in 118. Eva in 795. I'm not counting 740, because they were roleplaying. 998 might be considered honest feedback, since Faye brought up the subject of bottom-bouncing. The teasing got utterly vicious in 936 where the robots are manipulating her dream.
936 was a guest strip.
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What I guess you meant is "Honestly if someone is overweight then they shouldn't complain if someone criticizes them."
So someone who is overweight shouldn't be offended if someone calls them fat? Even though that is extremely rude and hurtful?
I think it depends on the situation. For example, a couple of years ago I went out for some drinks with my best friend from back when I was in high school, and he mentioned I'd gained weight. He was right; partying a lot, working a lot (desk job), and exercising very little had earned me a beer gut and some definite, obvious facial chubbiness. Thus, I'd have been a douchebag to get offended by the comment, IMHO - he was just being honest, not vindictive. And the comment was called for, since when he'd last seen me, I was working out a lot and my biggest concern was gaining (muscle) weight.
I understand that it's way different if you come out and call a friend a lardass, but telling them they need to hit the gym isn't a Bad Thing. At least, not unless you know they had just gotten over an eating disorder, or something similar - as I said, it really depends on the situation.
What if somebody called you a pimply-faced loser or pointed out that your beard was stupid or your haircut or clothing choice sucked? All of those are, to an extent, choices you make about the way you look (acne CAN be caused by bad hygeine.) This isn't me insulting you, because I don't know what you look like, but nobody has the right to degrade anyone's appearance in front of them. It isn't "advice" it is "being a fuckface". It is only advice if they honestly ask you for it.
See, telling someone they should pay attention to their hygiene usually isn't bad, either. Calling them a loser is different. The former really is advice. The latter is, as you termed it, being a fuckface. I do have to respectfully disagree about your definition of advice; after all, sometimes we don't know that we need to ask for it.
Clothing and hair style (facial or otherwise) are matters of opinion, really, and amongst a mature social circle are perfectly open to insult when snarkiness levels reach over 9k.
Of course, one could go on and on about using tact in one's advice to friends, but since my tact-o-meter only works on full moons and leap days, I'm not really the best person to speak about such weighty matters.
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This is a very harsh first post. I promise I'll follow up with something nice elsewhere. Maybe. This lady has proven herself to be rather moronic in addition to being fat. Take a look at this particular article:
http://fatlyyours.blogspot.com/2008/05/argh.html
Pay attention to this part:
Even if fat was the most common body type among children, which it's NOT, skinny is still the ideal and this is what matters in bullying: not the way you are, but the way you "should" be. Kids who have some visible "flaw" are probably the majority. That doesn't stop them from being bullied.
She managed to type the exact point of the comic and still didn't grasp it. Anyone outside the norm is going to have a "flaw". But I think to say being fat is a " "flaw" " is dangerously ignorant. Know what's worse than ignorance? Willful ignorance. Sure, being pointed out things that are unhappy about your physical appearance is mean and upsetting. That doesn't mean the people pointing it out are flawed for seeing it as a problem. The only issue is the way it's being said, and this lady needs to get over the fact that she's been called fatty all her life or whatever. She seems like she'd be one of those people who'd order five cheeseburgers and an extra large fries at a fast food place then request a diet soda.
I would defend my cousin vehemently in daycare when we were younger because she was overweight. She's always been overweight despite the fact that she was very active in high school. Around her senior year, they discovered she had a very serious thyroid problem and once it was operated on, she lost a lot of weight. So sometimes weight really isn't optional, but that doesn't mean you should justify it.
A bit more on topic: I've never really considered Faye fat fat. I view her as one of those cute, heavier set girls who still manage to be very attractive because of their confidence. Yes, they probably break down and have insecurity problems. Just because the casual observer doesn't see it happen doesn't mean it doesn't. I don't think a fat person's going to walk up to someone in public and start conversing and complaining about how fat they are.
Interesting trend: Average sized girls are more insecure about their weight in general than those who're heavier. This is formed from personal observation and not from any real sort of statistic. The end.
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I wonder when she's going to write an article complaining about Wall-e. :-(
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Your comment has a great deal of truth in it, but it is actually harder to choose not to be fat over choosing not to smoke. For most people, the choice to smoke is not available to them until they are in their teens. But many obese people are that way because of the type of diet they have had since before they were TWO. I'm sorry, but a toddler doesn't choose to start drinking soda; that is the parent killing their own child. So people who have been fat for most of their lives will have an uphill battle losing that weight and changing their eating habits, unless they have a lot of support from other people. This is why obesity is classified as an epidemic and smoking isn't; obesity is a product of culture and family circumstances, even more so than smoking is. What I'm saying is, fat children often didn't make that choice themselves, and if someone doesn't intervene early, they have increasingly diminishing chances of learning how to lose weight.
Sorry for taking so long to get back to this. I am a busy man, blah blah blah and other excuses.
First of all, there is very real and compelling evidence that growing up in a home with one or more smokers (as I did) may contribute to the decision to smoke in later life, so I don't think it's really accurate to say that smoking is not influenced by parental decisions (which you didn't say, granted, but seem to be implying). Aside from that, at no point did I mean to compare smoking with obesity in terms of breaking the respective habits, although I would contend that anyone who doesn't believe quitting smoking to be exceedingly difficult is clearly someone who's never dealt with an addiction.
Apart from that, I can see your point but don't agree with it. At all.
As stated above, I am a big proponent of personal responsibility. A child, naturally, has a diminished level of responsibility, and an obese child is more the fault of the parents than anything else. This is also true of most character flaws possessed by children, so far as I'm concerned.
Even so, there comes a point when one must accept responsibility for one's own circumstances. An obese adult can no longer blame their parents because once a person reaches adulthood that person is responsible for his or her own lifestyle. This includes diet and level of daily exercise.
Losing weight is not easy. I understand that and did not at any time mean to imply it is. And, as stated above, I don't particularly care if someone is overweight. My point was simply that this is something that is an individual responsibility and that it's moronic to try to blame the rest of the world for 'not accepting fat.' The rest of the world doesn't accept fat because obesity is unhealthy and excepting very rare medical conditions is the individual's own damn fault.
The bottom line is that it's easy to educate oneself on proper diet and exercise. There are myriad resources available online or at the library. One may consult a nutritionist and/or hire a personal trainer, read books, check out websites, watch videos and acquire the information in all manner of other ways. Losing weight is difficult, but it's not complicated. It takes a commitment to better health and better living. If one is not willing to make that commitment that's just dandy, but one must recognize that there are consequences involved in this.
I don't think the people who are a few pounds overweight need to be overly concerned. The BMI system is flawed and the 'obesity epidemic' is a bit overhyped. If you're a male, 6' tall and weigh 200 lbs, you're probably okay (although that will depend on fitness level and body fat percentage). If you're the same male but weigh 350 lbs, then you have a problem. If you're comfortable living that way, more power to you, but it is not healthy, is not universally accepted and under no circumstances should accommodations be made for such people who ultimately have the power to change their circumstances if they're unhappy.
A parapalegic is someone in an unfortunate situation. An amputee is someone in an unfortunate situation. MS, Cystic Fibrosis, ALS, same deal. A fat person is just fat, and while there are people with real problems who need real help I will remain unsympathetic to them getting teased.
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Someone should be able to give constructive criticism, but people should be allowed to take their own responsibility too.
This thing always bothers me with smokers; I disagree with smoking, it's unhealthy for yourself and the people around you. But if someone chooses to smoke, I will not immediately start nagging him/her/them about it. It is their choice, and if I know that they aren't planning to change their choice, I won't bother them. As long as they don't bother me.
I think this should be the same with overweight. Of course you may and should be concerned, and should be able to express that, but if they don't want to come back on their choice, then give them a rest. It's their responsibility.
But I do agree, this blogging girl shouldn't be surprised if there are people who disagree with her lifestyle.
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Let's not get too carried away with the smoking analogy. It really does only stretch so far. My point was that you don't hear about people crying for smoke acceptance or declaring that nicotine stains are beautiful. Smokers know that what they're doing is unhealthy and choose to do it anyway regardless of the consequences. I think anyone who lives a lifestyle that leads to obesity is probably aware that it's unhealthy as well. They can choose to live that way if they want; it's the whole idea of fat acceptance that I don't agree with.
For the record, I would say that I probably endure just as much abuse as overweight people do on account of my habit. I get to deal with all manner of people who preach to me about how my habit is going to kill me and does all kinds of harm. I get told that it's causing problems for non-smokers, despite the fact that I take measures to ensure that my smoking doesn't affect them (standing downwind of them, asking before I light up, not smoking around children). I get called all kinds of names because of the choice I made. I take all of it in stride because I know that I've made an unhealthy decision and if people want to judge me solely because of that then that's their lookout. Obese people are going to face the same kind of things, but it's a consequence of their decision and that's just how it is.
You're absolutely right Jepser that people are responsible for their own choices and it's a bit self-important to assume that you know better and to get in their face about it. The issue with the blog linked is that she seems to be surprised and upset that the wider (or thinner, really) public are unaccepting of her lifestyle choice.
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Yes indeed, and she shouldn't. Even though people should try to live and let live, most of the times, they really don't. The best thing you can do then, is either taking value in their opinion, or living your life like you had been, and not getting angry about it.
Nice one in the last line btw. xD
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I looked through the aforementioned blog further just in case there might have been a modicum of intelligence nestled in there somewhere. Then I read this comment that she wrote in response to another commenter:
"What most of us [fat acceptance supporters] have in common is that we don't believe fat determines a person's health, or that a certain lifestyle automatically leads to a certain body type."
Does anyone else see what's wrong with this statement? If things similar to the above are what fat supporters actually believe then that's just really sad. The stupidity espoused by these people is just flabbergasting. I don't consider myself a "fatist", but geez, I don't understand people who are adverse to making better choices for themselves and then howl with outrage when someone calls them on it. I'm sorry, but I don't see how it can be too much effort to put down the cookies, step away from the television and go for a walk.
Meh.
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I'm sorry to go back on the smoking thing yet again.
Since February this year, it is no longer allowed to smoke inside restaurants, bars, clubs, concert venues etc. in the federal state where I go to school.
There have been numerous outcries (our favorite tabloid newspaper had stories about proprietors committing suicide because 80% of their core clientele could no longer visit as usual) and many places that have the layout and financial resources for it have refurbished to have a smoking area (which, also by law, needs to be properly sealed off with a door that cannot be propped open etc.).
A lot of the smokers in that area have been protesting. So have the proprietors. The Supreme Court realized that a lot of these people have a point (you cannot really forbid everything that is potentially bad for a person if you still want your citizens to have freedom of choice etc. - it's a long debate).
A few days ago, the same legislation was introduced in the place where I live. This federal state has about 10 times as many inhabitants. Thus, the outcry was thunderous.
What I'm getting at here is that there are smokers pushing for tolerance. Very similar to fat people.
Their claim to have freedom of choice over their lifestyle is similar as well.
The consequences for themselves are obvious (both choices are unhealthy period; of course there's that one uncle who chainsmoked for 70 years and lived but _in general_ being overweight or being a smoker is not good for you).
The point that has to enter into this discussion is the social consequences. Smokers are expensive patients. Fat people are expensive patients. Both have elevated risks for serious diseases etc. A smoker may directly damage other people through passive smoke. This is where the parallel stops.
But fattiness is still a hazard.
The people who know it isn't healthy and still choose to be fat - in fact, defending to be fat - should IMHO not receive medical treatment unless they pay 100% of it themselves. Same for smokers, by the way.
Now onto something entirely different (but not quite):
My sister is chubby. She likes TV too much, she has no discipline when it comes to food or exercise and she has enough disposable income to have Sex-and-the-City-style cocktail meetings with her fellow chubby 'girlfriends' pretty much weekly. All this is doing her no good.
The rest of the family is pretty slim. My dad has a beer gut but he's working on it and has lost 10 kg in the last year.
We're calling her out on it quite a lot (and she's immensely pissed off by that, we're aware). We're not doing it to hurt her. We're doing it to help her. And sometimes, the heavier a person is, the harder you have to push to get them over the edge.
And RE: that comic with the fat kids mobbing article: I shake my head. Words fail me. I tried to put a medium-critical comment under that post but it probably got
moderated into oblivion with 2-5 mouse clicks administered by a really fat finger.
EDIT: A full-sized picture of the author of the article. Just because I can.
(http://i26.tinypic.com/5nvkue.jpg)
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I wonder when she's going to write an article complaining about Wall-e. :-(
yeah no kidding, I can just see it
"Wall-e is an incarnation of fat robotics and Wall-e tries to tell us that our lifestyle is unhealthy, he makes no assumptions toward this at all because I just overanalyze until I see what I wanna see.... but who cares because I'm right! Down with Wall-e and up with irresponsible fat lifestyles. May the grace of the lord fatty cakes be with you all, amen"
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Hur hur, fullsized indeed, evernew.
Things like these honestly make me think of creationists (yes offense). Even when it's utterly, absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to prove that you are not right, they still go, 'yeah, but we don't believe that.' Without giving any kind of proof. Way to ignore facts.
(And no, I don't hate Christians or other monotheists. I just hate people who go on shoving the Bible in your face, telling you to take every single letter literally.)
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I'm not sure you can say that all theists have this additude and I know quite a few "outside the box" thinkers who act just as you described. I'm not trying to down anyone here and I certainly don't wanna get into a debate about thiesm/atheism as Jeph has asked us very nicely not to approach topics of relegein :)
why do I think this is worth mentioning?:) Because I'm actully a theist myself :) so I was a tad offended but you made it clear thats what you intended :P so don't mind me :)
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You are also :lol: obsessively :roll: smiling!
This post also serves in showing off my awesome fat avatar. Fat acceptance needs not stop in real life! Avatars have a God-given RIGHT to be fat!
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You are also :lol: obsessively :roll: smiling!
This post also serves in showing off my awesome fat avatar. Fat acceptance needs not stop in real life! Avatars have a God-given RIGHT to be fat!
are you serious? :| Look if your so secure in what you say than why do you go and try to convince the entire world to think like you do? You have the right to be fat and we have the right to not care [or care, or whatever]
EDIT: That being said, that honestly was a very good response in the post before the one in the quote brackets. You laid out your argument very well and I was impressed :) see? :) I can give credit where credit is due :)
I dunno.... I just have a huge disdain for the whole "revolution" mindset. I just think maybe you would have more peace in your life if you just try to maybe stand by what you are convicted by and leave the rest of the world alone. Just my thoughts :)
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Holy hell, now I have to go frown at people for a few hours to counteract all those goddamn smiley faces.
:x
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I'm not sure you can say that all theists have this additude and I know quite a few "outside the box" thinkers who act just as you described. I'm not trying to down anyone here and I certainly don't wanna get into a debate about thiesm/atheism as Jeph has asked us very nicely not to approach topics of relegein :)
why do I think this is worth mentioning?:) Because I'm actully a theist myself :) so I was a tad offended but you made it clear thats what you intended :P so don't mind me :)
I think if all Christians were like Jesus meant them to be, it would be one awesome religion. And I also don't want to debate about these things, to avoid becoming unfriendly, a thing which sadly tends to happen in theological discussions...
Also, if you really think Genesis is completely true, than that's fine. Just don't try to convince me like all those people on youtube do. xD
Anyway, religious debates closed, back to bashing self-righteous obesity.
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Just don't try to convince me like all those people on youtube do. xD
lol! The number 1 problem with youtube? ANYONE can post a video! :roll:
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Well, some people are too dumb to get a video on the internets. And I'm probably glad they are.
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I wonder when she's going to write an article complaining about Wall-e. :-(
(http://gearsdevlin833.googlepages.com/walle.JPG/walle-full.JPG)
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This thread is getting a little silly, don't you guys think? The woman posted an analysis of a character. The analysis had a few flaws, which have been noted. Let's move on with our lives, shall we?
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Nah, I think there's still some flesh around the hooves we haven't beaten off yet.
:-D that's if Deniselle hasn't eaten it yet.
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I'm sorry to go back on the smoking thing yet again.
Since February this year, it is no longer allowed to smoke inside restaurants, bars, clubs, concert venues etc. in the federal state where I go to school.
There have been numerous outcries (our favorite tabloid newspaper had stories about proprietors committing suicide because 80% of their core clientele could no longer visit as usual) and many places that have the layout and financial resources for it have refurbished to have a smoking area (which, also by law, needs to be properly sealed off with a door that cannot be propped open etc.).
A lot of the smokers in that area have been protesting. So have the proprietors. The Supreme Court realized that a lot of these people have a point (you cannot really forbid everything that is potentially bad for a person if you still want your citizens to have freedom of choice etc. - it's a long debate).
A few days ago, the same legislation was introduced in the place where I live. This federal state has about 10 times as many inhabitants. Thus, the outcry was thunderous.
What I'm getting at here is that there are smokers pushing for tolerance. Very similar to fat people.
Their claim to have freedom of choice over their lifestyle is similar as well.
The consequences for themselves are obvious (both choices are unhealthy period; of course there's that one uncle who chainsmoked for 70 years and lived but _in general_ being overweight or being a smoker is not good for you).
The issue with smoking bans isn't necessarily about acceptance, but rather about freedom of choice. I don't agree with smoking bans because I believe that proprietors should have the option to make that decision for themselves.
Imagine the outcry if a restaurant or bar owner decided that fat people should be cordoned off and segregated.
But really, the smoking thing was only ever intended to be a rough analogy. It's not a 1 to 1 thing, people! It's getting rather silly.
The point that has to enter into this discussion is the social consequences. Smokers are expensive patients. Fat people are expensive patients. Both have elevated risks for serious diseases etc. A smoker may directly damage other people through passive smoke. This is where the parallel stops.
But fattiness is still a hazard.
The people who know it isn't healthy and still choose to be fat - in fact, defending to be fat - should IMHO not receive medical treatment unless they pay 100% of it themselves. Same for smokers, by the way.
The issue with this is where to draw the line. There are a lot of illnesses that are self-inflicted in some way or another. Should melanoma patients have to pay because they didn't wear sunscreen? Should STD patients have to pay because they trusted their partner? Osteoporosis patients because they didn't get enough calcium in their diet?
Refusing people health care based on personal choices is a very dangerous road to go down.
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Yeah you got to give people basic health care regardless of what bad decisions they may have made in the past.
Fat Acceptance people really bother me because many of them are advocating an unhealthy lifestyle. It's the same as anorexia-advocates, just on the opposite end of the spectrum. It's like, yes, you should not be discriminated against because of your weight, and yes, not all fat people are that way because they eat too many Big Macs. But the fact remains that being overweight is unhealthy and people should not be unhealthy if they can help it! I say this as a dude who could probably stand to lose about 50 or 60 pounds and is going to the gym to try and do that.
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The issue with smoking bans isn't necessarily about acceptance, but rather about freedom of choice. I don't agree with smoking bans because I believe that proprietors should have the option to make that decision for themselves.
Imagine the outcry if a restaurant or bar owner decided that fat people should be cordoned off and segregated.
I can't get cancer from secondhand obesity. Smoking is a matter of public safety.
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Yeah smoking is actively bad for those around you. I am all in favor of not smoking in public.
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A bit more on topic: I've never really considered Faye fat fat. I view her as one of those cute, heavier set girls who still manage to be very attractive because of their confidence.
The way you phrase that makes it sound like 'heavier set' is an obstacle to attractiveness. Explain yourself, good sir. :x
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Why should it need explaining?
Dudes all have different tastes when it comes to women. Some guys aren't attracted to the 'chunky' girls like Faye is portrayed to be. Some guys may consider a girl who is confident and spirited attractive where they may not consider a girl with a similar body type attractive if she didn't possess those qualities.
I can't get cancer from secondhand obesity. Smoking is a matter of public safety.
According to the last studies I read on the subject, the odds of you getting cancer from second hand smoke are exceptionally low unless you're exposed to it on a daily basis. I mean, shit. For perspective, if I quit smoking before I turn 30 the odds of me getting lung cancer are not signifcantly higher than among the general population and I've smoked half a pack a day for years.
Aside from that, if an establishment allows smoking and you don't want to be exposed to it, all you have to do is take your money and business elsewhere. If enough people feel like you do, the change will occur naturally. It shouldn't have to be forced. If we're talking government buildings or public transit or something, I'll agree with you. Outdoors or in a private commercial building like a bar or a restaurant, well that's a different story.
Smoking is really off-topic though. I think we can all agree that fat people who are in denial about being fat and how unhealthy it is suck.
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Why should it need explaining?
Dudes all have different tastes when it comes to women. Some guys aren't attracted to the 'chunky' girls like Faye is portrayed to be. Some guys may consider a girl who is confident and spirited attractive where they may not consider a girl with a similar body type attractive if she didn't possess those qualities.
This is exactly it. If someone's fine with how they look and is confident about it, then it really doesn't matter to me unless it's a health issue. If someone's unhappy about how they look and isn't actually trying to do something constructive about it, that's more indicative of something in the personality. Also I'm imagining the original sir was a joke but um. Yeah. I'm female.
I can't get cancer from secondhand obesity. Smoking is a matter of public safety.
According to the last studies I read on the subject, the odds of you getting cancer from second hand smoke are exceptionally low unless you're exposed to it on a daily basis. I mean, shit. For perspective, if I quit smoking before I turn 30 the odds of me getting lung cancer are not signifcantly higher than among the general population and I've smoked half a pack a day for years.
Aside from that, if an establishment allows smoking and you don't want to be exposed to it, all you have to do is take your money and business elsewhere. If enough people feel like you do, the change will occur naturally. It shouldn't have to be forced. If we're talking government buildings or public transit or something, I'll agree with you. Outdoors or in a private commercial building like a bar or a restaurant, well that's a different story.
Smoking is really off-topic though. I think we can all agree that fat people who are in denial about being fat and how unhealthy it is suck.
Cancer is not the only problem smoking causes, and there are many other health risks associated with second hand smoke. You have a point about not going anywhere that allows smoking and using your money to decide, but the fact of the matter is there are too many smokers for any restaurant to choose really of their own accord to be completely smoke free.
Being fat affects yourself and people who care about you. Smoking affects you, people who care about you, and everyone in the vicinity. To what degree is up for debate, but I've never met someone who's argued that smoking is healthy for the smoker. They might argue for acceptance of their lifestyle for other reasons, but the point is that they aren't deluded into thinking a choice they've made doesn't harm them.
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I live near Austin, TX and they passed a smoking ban about 3 or so years ago...back when I was working in a bar as a Hostess. I was thankful for it, as I'm not a smoker(except occasionally at a hooka bar) and I really don't care for it...but if I had to choose between having my job and dealing with some smoke, I probably would've chosen my job. *shrugs*
The town I live in, about 30 miles south and it still allows smoking in bars. I go out to Karaoke at the bar on Wednesdays usually and I deal with the smoke, and I'm not that annoyed...but still, I find it pretty gross. I hate how I smell when I come home. I don't see why it's such a big deal to not smoke in a bar or restaurant considering you can step outside for a smoke break. My friends who are smokers don't smoke in their own house so that it doesn't smell...why should it be so different at a restaurant?
On the other hand being fat doesn't actually hurt anyone except perhaps yourself. And, likewise with smokers, people know being obese is not good for you, in general makes people think you're less attractive, hurts yourself esteem and various other things discussed. If someone knows the consequences of their actions that are harmless to others, should they just be left alone? Does criticizing help them at all? I think it really depends on the individual and their personality.
But, if you say nothing and act like nothing is wrong...does that make it easier for things like "Fat Acceptance" to start? People who feel like outcasts naturally gather, share their similar opinions and start validating one another. The internet is huge in facilitating this. I've visited many message boards that have this same mentality of "Us against the world!" and sadly it seems like someone joins a group like "Fat Acceptance" that they will put much more effort into changing their paradigm and identity to fit within the new group that accepts them "as is" than towards improving themselves towards the "norm"(in this case losing weight).
In general I don't think all of these groups are bad(though most seem to suffer from the same bad habits and problems), and I don't particularly think anyone should be forced or compelled to be more "normal". I believe everyone should spend their lives gradually improving and they should get to be the person they want to be, and spend their lives pursing whatever they want. But I find it really hard to believe "Fat Acceptance" is really what these people want. It just seems like an easy alternative to a healthy lifestyle. I think if and or when our society starts seeing it as more and more acceptable to be obese and "no connection between being fat and being unhealthy" is when we'll be in more trouble...because then there will be less and less motivation for people to be healthy.
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I wonder when she's going to write an article complaining about Wall-e. :-(
(http://gearsdevlin833.googlepages.com/walle.JPG/walle-full.JPG)
This made me lol for a good 10 minutes. <3
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Actually, don't Twinkies only have something like 4.5 grams of fat and 150 calories? (That's about as much in one slice of bacon, and you usually see people eat three or four of those at once.) One every once in a while isn't going to kill you (or make you fat), but eating 500 of them in once sitting certainly will.
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I think the problem is when you eat 50 twinkies a day.
Twinkies; one of the mysteries of American culture to me. I know they're some kind of cookie or pastry, but still. Ah well, I'm guessing most of you don't know about tompouces.
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I think the problem is when you eat 50 twinkies a day.
Twinkies; one of the mysteries of American culture to me. I know they're some kind of cookie or pastry, but still. Ah well, I'm guessing most of you don't know about tompouces.
The Restaurant/Bar I worked at served FRIED twinkies. People actually liked those things. My husband and I ordered them once just because it seems sooo ridiculous. They were disgusting....then again I hate regular twinkies too. Perhaps if they'd had fried ZebraCakes ;-)
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Gawd, frying oil and lots of sugar. Doesn't seem like a very good combination. And I thought Wigu's Macarito 3000 With Cheese or however it was called was bad. xD
(Though tasty.)
On another note, getting off-topic isn't bad considering the topic, right? :angel:
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OH MY GOD
SUCK IT UP.
GO EXERCISE.
GOOD GOD.
THERE ARE TOO MANY WALLS OF TEXT.
:/
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I'm not denying basic healthcare for everybody.
What I don't want is my tax monies / healthcare contributions vanishing in expensive treatment of smokers OR fatties because both groups have been properly warned about the consequences of their choices. And fat people just cost way more once they get older and their fat-related health problems become more apparent.
If I could (and it wasn't regarded as incredibly insensitive), I would hand out leaflets to obese people that just say MODERATION and EXERCISE in big letters.
To quote a great website (Doubleviking):
But even though the REAL Italian diet contains pasta, those bitches know the key to staying fit and still eating what you want: SMALLER PORTIONS.
And in fact, the pasta portion of a traditional meal (the so called "primo piatto") is, according to the experts at About.com, the size of a CUP. Not a plate. Not a bowl. A fucking CUP.
Any advance in fighting obesity in the population needs to go hand in hand with educational efforts.
And those who see all the signs and still choose to be fat - those people can pay for their fat-related extra treatment from their own goddamn pockets for all I care.
If obesity is subsidized through general healthcare, it clogs up the entire system. Much like fat people do a crowded shopping street.
Oh no.
I am fatophobic.
:x
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Hey, I just wanted to throw my hat into the ring.
I'm short as hell and on the curvy side, and haven't always been 100% cool with that. Not clinically depressed or anything, just less than thrilled. Reading QC and seeing such a prominent character with my body type (and abrasive personality) that was considered attractive was really an ego boost. Faye getting made fun of for being squishy is just that, getting made fun of.
That is all.
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I don't pay for the war with my tax monies because I'm not from the States.
I do, however, pay for cancer treatment of chain smokers and the cardiovascular therapy which obese people receive.
A lot of the other health risks you listed are job- or lifestyle-related. Over here, job-related hazards are covered in the event of, let's say, a workplace accident.
Most insurance policies will not cover extreme sports injuries. Why? Because there is a serious risk of something bad happening to you.
Much like smoking or being overweight.
I only smoke occasionally. But I do like sports that make you go fast and I'm aware of the risks that come with this conscious decision. And I'm prepared to accept that whatever medical treatment I may require because of sports injuries, I'm very likely to pay for myself.
Hospitals should treat those people, of course. Hospitals should treat all people. But the general public should not foot the bill for individual risk-taking.
The next point I'm quite a heretic on: I don't believe that more than 2 or 3 percent of the population is unable to lose weight because of their genes.
Let me explain.
I was chubby when I was 12 or 13. I like eating. When I hit a growth spurt, that all went away.
When I was 20 or so, my metabolism settled in a little and I noticed after a period of slacking on sports and eating like I used to that I'd gain weight.
Because I don't like being overweight (#1 reason is that I don't fit into my favorite clothes anymore), I try to maintain a certain level. That's all it is, really. Get to a level which is healthy and maintain it.
Most people I've met who claim that their genes are the problem do not do any sports (let alone doing them regularly) or work out or care about their diet at all.
A peculiar group are the people who grow up chubby and who grow up in a chubby family. You could say that they're obviously a product of their environment. Poorly educated parents, yada yada. But once they are adults (and have the chance to know better), it is up to them. This is right about the point where most people I've met settle into the apathy that their body shape is beyond their control.
Once these people have tried it (not just for shits and giggles, I mean diet, sports, the whole works over a longer period of time) and - despite evidence that they are leading an unnecessarily unhealthy lifestyle - choose to remain overweight, I don't think it's fair to burden society with the extra dollars their treatment costs.
Now this may all be biased and karma may well bite me in the ass if I'm wrong.
But if there's one point I wanted to make here - it is that public healthcare is not responsible for picking up after you. A big part of being a responsible citizen is assuming responsibility for one's actions and behavior - including health and sports. If you choose to accept certain risks in your life, it should be you who takes care of them as well.
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I think the problem is when you eat 50 twinkies a day.
Twinkies; one of the mysteries of American culture to me. I know they're some kind of cookie or pastry, but still. Ah well, I'm guessing most of you don't know about tompouces.
What is a tompouce? Twinkies are a yellow cake-ish thing filled with some sort of creamy stuff. They really are very gross.
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What is a tompouce? Twinkies are a yellow cake-ish thing filled with some sort of creamy stuff. They really are very gross.
They are also rumored to be "good"/"fresh" forever...which is why it's amusing the cockroach(another thing that is said will survive forever) in Wall-e is eating it, after there's been no food on earth for 700 years :-P
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I think the problem is when you eat 50 twinkies a day.
Twinkies; one of the mysteries of American culture to me. I know they're some kind of cookie or pastry, but still. Ah well, I'm guessing most of you don't know about tompouces.
What is a tompouce? Twinkies are a yellow cake-ish thing filled with some sort of creamy stuff. They really are very gross.
It's two layers of puff pastry with lots of cream in between, and white or pink icing on top. They're quite tasty, though I believe they're exclusively Dutch/Belgian.
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(http://www.doemaarzwart.nl/site/wp-content/uploads/tompouce21.jpg)
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(http://www.doemaarzwart.nl/site/wp-content/uploads/tompouce21.jpg)
Indeed.
Maybe Napoleon brought them to Norway? I dunno if the French ever were there, though.
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What I don't want is my tax monies / healthcare contributions vanishing in expensive treatment of smokers OR fatties because both groups have been properly warned about the consequences of their choices. And fat people just cost way more once they get older and their fat-related health problems become more apparent.
I've heard that smokers and fatties actually use less health care overall because of their lower lifespan.
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I've heard that smokers and fatties actually use less health care overall because of their lower lifespan.
ok.... so they will die sooner, tell me how thats a benefit :|
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But the things that cause their lower lifespans (diabetes, heart disease, cancer) are damn expensive while they're still alive.
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Surgoshan said exactly what I was gonna say. Unhealthy people don't just drop dead like they were shot. They decay and it's messy and there's a lot of blood and mucousy substances involved. It's not pretty.
I am from Germany (it was relevant a few posts ago). We don't have as many big people as the States if you can believe those fancy-schmancy statistics but we're getting there. All the signs are there. Shops catering exclusively to obese people. I've witnessed a fatass getting preferential seating on a plane because he couldn't fit into any other damn seat on the entire plane.
Enough of that, though.
One of the reasons why I'm so pissed off about fat people and smokers getting treatment out of the public healthcare is that they are a) aware that they're submitting themselves to health risks and b) that they choose to incur these risks individually but as soon as disaster strikes they want it to be paid by the public.
Hell, I like dangerous and unhealthy stuff, too. But I know that a snowboarding injury will come out of my pocket. (We also have a substantial private healthcare system which is pretty important.)
Now instead of discussing whether snowboarding is actually better for you than being fat or smoking I'll propose that either _all_ of the treatments for those lifestyle-related health risks should be covered under public healthcare - or _none_ of them.
Smokers cost a lot of money. But it remains legal (even though smokers are getting cornered increasingly these days) because they also make a lot of money for poppa federal budget.
Again I'm going knee-deep into that individual choice vs. social costs debate.
My brother and me once discussed a 'license for dangerous living' which you have to apply for and, once you pass medical and psychological exams etc., you are allowed to speed, do soft drugs etc. It's a beautiful concept because it accounts for people having different tolerances for addiction etc. It fails in reality because all the dangerous things you could do potentially affect other people as well (best example is speeding). This is the case with smoking and, more and more so, this is the case with obesity.
Instead of rambling out seemingly random thoughts on the issue, I'll stop now. Maybe 10 to 20 years down the road I'll write a book about it. "What Evernew Thinks About Smoking, Being Fat And Other Dangers To Society." Keep your eyes peeled.
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But the things that cause their lower lifespans (diabetes, heart disease, cancer) are damn expensive while they're still alive.
Old people get those things too; they just get them later. Fat people still cost less overall when you look at their lifetime health care, though it may be more concentrated.
Whether or not this is relevant is another story, as it depends on how much they're contributing themselves to the costs. But I don't think it's so cut-and-dry that they're draining our tax dollars.
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Here's an attempt to put numbers on lifetime health costs of obesity:
http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0050029&ct=1
Back to Faye, I see her in the range of 25-30% body fat, with a weakness for comfort food (#214, #470).
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If you're a little overweight like Faye, I don't see an issue. However, people I know who are significantly overweight and endangering their health bother me. I want to tell them that this decision to eat just to eat has significantly shortened their lifespan--was it really worth those extra sandwiches ?
Sure. You only lost the crappy years at the end anyway. :-P
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Sure. You only lost the crappy years at the end anyway. :-P
naw not really actually. The crappy years get moved up to your 40s and 50s [maybe even 30s if your REALLY obese] and you pretty much lose your youth.
They say most sumo wrestlers don't even live till their 30. As has been said...... is it really worth those extra sandwiches?
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Um, sumo wrestlers are pretty fat, but not ridiculously obese. Their life expectancy is more like 60-65; they're basically normal fat people.
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I am from Germany (it was relevant a few posts ago).
Yo can call me a fuckin leftist if you want, but Germany is spending most of its money on the Bundeswehr, too. Much more than on health-care if I can believe the statistics I got, when I asked for them at the Finanzamt. It's been a while, so I can be wrong.
Smokers cost a lot of money. But it remains legal (even though smokers are getting cornered increasingly these days) because they also make a lot of money for poppa federal budget.
See, that's where they pay for their treatment.
I don't smoke and I don't like smoking, but I don't agree with you.
But the things that cause their lower lifespans (diabetes, heart disease, cancer) are damn expensive while they're still alive.
Well, not so long, that they come to the costs of people who are living healthy lifes, appeareantly.
@topic:
I don't see her point. Faye is not fat and most people I know are skinny and not Faye-like. And most of them are complaining about their figure, so this is just something nearly every girl seems to do (and I compliment every girl, who doesn't).
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I'd like to chime in as someone who is overweight. Faye isn't obese. She's full figured and insecure with her body, but not obese.
I'd also like to point a few things out about myself. I do watch what I eat. I've cut down on saturated fat and eat more vegetables than I used to. I don't eat fast food more than once a month. I admit that I am lazy and have a sweet tooth. I've learned that how much you weigh isn't the best indicator of how healthy you are. An overweight person who exercises regulary can be healthier than a skinny person who doesn't.
I think western culture has been saturated with lazyness. 100 years ago, if you wanted a snack, you had to make one from scratch. Today you can purchase a candy bar for 75 cents. Back then, if someone was skinny it was because they couldn't afford to eat more. Human nature forces us to do two things: eat and fornicate. When we invented birth control, technology allowed us to pursue the latter without the responsibilites of raising children. Unfortunetly, technology has not caught up with the former. Maybe it will someday and you can take an anti-obesity pill with your chocolate cake.
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And I've heard that penguins are able to fly when noone is watching, but until I can back it up with facts it matters diddly-squat.
Don't look now... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo-ZPPjYdeg&feature=related)
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That was actually an April Fools Joke by BBC. You are correct in the fact that no penguins can fly. However many people call what they do under water "Flying".
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One of the reasons why I'm so pissed off about fat people and smokers getting treatment out of the public healthcare is that they are a) aware that they're submitting themselves to health risks and b) that they choose to incur these risks individually but as soon as disaster strikes they want it to be paid by the public.
Hell, I like dangerous and unhealthy stuff, too. But I know that a snowboarding injury will come out of my pocket.
So if you hit a tree while snowboarding, and are left paralyzed from the neck down, requiring thousands of hours of rehabilitation and at least part-time nursing care for the rest of your life, is that going to come out of your pocket too, hero?
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So if you hit a tree while snowboarding, and are left paralyzed from the neck down, requiring thousands of hours of rehabilitation and at least part-time nursing care for the rest of your life, is that going to come out of your pocket too, hero?
My general view is, once nothing works below the neck, it's time to ask a trusted friend to get the .45.
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There was a good movie released last year called (in English) The Diving Bell and the Butterfly. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0401383/
It was based on a book of the same name, which was the non-fiction memoir of a completely paralyzed person. From Wikipedia:
...Bauby suffered a stroke and lapsed into a coma. He awoke 20 days later, mentally aware of his surroundings but physically paralyzed with the exception of some movement in his head and left eye. The entire book was written by Bauby blinking his left eyelid, in July and August of 1996. A transcriber repeatedly recited a French language frequency-ordered alphabet (E S A R I N T U L etc.), until Bauby blinked to choose the next letter. The book took about 200,000 blinks to write and each word took approximately two minutes.... [The book] received excellent reviews and sold 150,000 copies in the first week and went on to become a number one bestseller across Europe.
Make sure that your friend with the .45 gets your consent before he pulls the trigger! You might want to write your memoir first.
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Not only would I say it to your face, assuming you're as dangerously overweight as you seem to be claiming, I've said it to other people before too. They understood and agreed, because they were fairly smart.
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Not only would I say it to your face, assuming you're as dangerously overweight as you seem to be claiming, I've said it to other people before too. They understood and agreed, because they were fairly smart.
Um, whom the fuck are you talking to? :?
The quote button, it is your little friend. :police:
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nono you see Bunny, the person he was talking to deleted all her posts, so now he just seems crazy.
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nono you see Bunny, the person he was talking to deleted all her posts, so now he just seems crazy.
This is why I use the quote button at all times. I know that people here get all up in arms when you use it while immediately following-up, but seriously, when the traffic is high here, "immediately" doesn't mean much. And when the traffic is low here, who cares? Are the couple hundred pixels I waste a precious resource? Is the extra eighth of an inch of quoted text I include an impassible barrier that the eye cannot supercede? I don't think so. :roll:
Quoting aids clarity. Clarity aids understanding. Understanding aids discussion. Discussion is why we are here.
Q. E. D.
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Q. E. D.
Quoting Enables Discussion?
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Q. E. D.
Oh, Quite Easily Done!
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Are the couple hundred pixels I waste a precious resource?
They can be (http://www.milliondollarhomepage.com/).
Q. E. D.
Oh yeah? Prove it!
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Man I remember doing a report on online advertising and The Million Dollar Homepage in middle school. Is it really that old?
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I think that in a sense, the whole discussion boils down to the issue of personal responsibility, and the implications of shifting the consequences and responsibilities regarding our own actions to somebody else (i.e, McDonald's, tobacco companies, healthcare system), or even worse, not recognizing any responsibility at all.
I tried to sum it up here:
http://jackmulligan.blogspot.com/2008/07/teh-issues-with-ourselves.html
it's in spanish though, so be warned
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Faye has said herself that she knows she's not obese, she's just comparatively bigger than the other girls. I don't get why this woman is so adamant about getting her point across that Jeph is sexist and sizeist, when really, it's just a character he's created, and that's who she is. And for the most part, nobody has a problem with Faye's weight problem, they just bring it up every once in awhile, and she serves it right back to them.
Dude, it's a fucking comic strip. Go whine how everybody on the Simpsons is a fatty, and grow another chin.
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Matt Groening is a sizeist!!!
He portrays Bart (who has a large tummy, funny no one has noticed that after all these years) as a mischievous kid, ergo Matt Groening thinks all fat kids are trouble kids
That's the kinda logic that girl uses