THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)

Fun Stuff => CLIKC => Topic started by: KvP on 20 Aug 2008, 14:00

Title: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 20 Aug 2008, 14:00
Since the game's 5 months or so away, and the E3 thread's pretty much done for, so I'm making this thread for those of you who are interested. These new pics are from Leipzig.

1 (http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/6190/12192434071wi1.jpg)
2 (http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8445/12192434072xh6.jpg)
3 (http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/9347/12192434073st9.jpg)
4 (http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/4062/12192434074sq3.jpg)
5 (http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/1128/12192434075hu8.jpg)
6 (http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/7569/12192434076pn4.jpg)
7 (http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3199/12192435027jd6.jpg)
8 (http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3172/12192435028gn2.jpg)

So basically, for those not in the know (and given Sega's promo performance, that's most if not all of you) Alpha Protocol is an espionage-themed Action RPG from Obsidian Entertainment slated for release in February (man, that spelling annoys me). It's made by the same dudes who, in the past, have made Neverwinter Nights 2, Knights of the Old Republic 2, Planescape: Torment, Fallout 2 and the Icewind Dale games. Specifically this is being designed by the guy who did KOTOR2 and PS:T.

Basically, the gist is thus - you are Michael Thorton (no N like Billy Bob), a trained CIA operative who goes on a mission that, of course, must go haywire. You are framed for something or other and you go Alpha Protocol (off the grid and on the run to complete a mission) while you are the only person who is aware of a global conspiracy with malevolent intentions, and you alone have to stop it. You have a list of informants and safehouses spread across the globe, and you go about trying to find out what's what.

Before these screenies were released the game looked a lot like Mass Effect (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,20567.msg678507.html#msg678507), and it still sort of does, mainly due to both of them using UE3, but it's slowly setting itself apart. The character models are less shiny, and there's actual CQC (the dev in charge of melee fighting says it's American Kenpo) that looks very promising (certainly my first playthrough) The primary inspiration for animation and combat is Uncharted: Drake's Fortune, which I've heard very good things about but haven't played because boo hiss Sony.

The dialogue system is like ME, but it's even simpler. It's much more like Indigo Prophecy (Fahrenheit for you euros) your responses are timed, and you're given a very simple summation of the actions you can perform. "Draw gun" "smooth talk" "bribe" "threaten", etc. It should lead to fewer "but I didn't want to shoot the guy!" moments like the sort you got from ME. In general there will be 3 different "conversation paths" you can take. There's suave (Bond), brutal (Bauer) and professional (Bourne), more or less. You can choose one of these "paths" and put the controller down as the timer ticks down and automatically chooses responses indicative of the path, or you can switch at a whim. The devs have promised that once you've gone through a dialogue tree, you can't go back through it. So you have to be sure of what you're doing.

One thing about the game that people are skeptical of at this juncture is that it looks like the game will have unlimited ammo. You're likely going to be made to choose your weapons and mods at the beginning of a mission (like Hitman) but you won't be able to retrieve enemy weapons. Among the strategy enthusiasts this doesn't sit very well. You'll have to reload your guns, but you'll have infinite clips and can thus go full Rambo for an entire mission if you wanted to. The tone of the game is sort of hard to pin down. There are camp elements, given that they're drawing somewhat from the Bond legacy, but they're also trying to ground the game in the real world, even if that world is exaggerated (CQC, for example, is an absolute last resort for any real soldier or fighter)

Here's a more recently released preview from E3. (http://www.videogamer.com/pc/alpha_protocol/preview-1147.html)
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 20 Aug 2008, 19:52
Jeez, I just realized that February 2009 only is a little over 5 months away. It seems so much longer. I am hoping that this is the game that finally makes Obsidian into a premier RPG developer. I mean, NWN 2 was fine, but it was buggy as hell, and of course everyone knows the trials and tribulations around KOTOR 2's development. I hear Mask of Betrayer was great, but in the grand scheme of things it was just an expansion pack. I'm curious, do we know whether Obsidian owns this IP themselves in the same way Bioware owns all their original IP, or does Sega own Alpha Protocol?

Sega certainly seems to have a lot of faith in the Obsidian team, since they handed them the development keys to the Aliens RPG that they're working on next as well. If Alpha Protocol hits it big, I wonder if Sega tries acquiring them like they recently did with Creative Assembly.

Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 20 Aug 2008, 20:19
The IP was developed internally and then pitched to Sega, if I recall correctly, and Sega farmed Aliens out to Obsidian at the same time they commissioned Gearbox (there is also apparently some overlap between the two games, storywise / artwise / characterwise)

It'd be interesting if Sega were to buy out Obsidian. They seem more of a mid-level publisher than an EA or Activision. But I'm wary of it. Troika set out to become the "pet RPG developer" of a few publishers but it didn't work out at all, mostly due to Troika's staggering inefficiency and propensity for pissing them off. Obsidian seems more savvy than that, though. They're making games more of the times, at least.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 20 Aug 2008, 21:11
As I understand it, Sega contracted Obsidian for Alpha Protocol (which of course was still secret at that point) and the Aliens RPG at the same time, probably around the same time they partnered with Gearbox for the Aliens shooter. I feel like Gearbox is doing something else for Sega beyond that and the Wii remake of Samba de Amigo, but I can't remember it offhand.

The reason why I brought up the acquisition issue is that it's an increasing trend in the modern video games market. As technology increases and game development costs rise, along with gamer culture increasingly recognizing names and teams that produce quality product, publishers want safe investments in the form of talented studios. The Bioware/Pandemic deal earlier last year proves that pretty much nobody is off limits, but the thing is that right now, Obsidian is still relatively small in comparison so they'd be much cheaper to buy out. I think that Sega is obviously interested because quality western RPG studios are few and far between anyway, and with Bioware owned by EA and Bethesda still tied to 2K for the time being, Obsidian is really the only one left that has significant name recognition without a clear allegiance to a publisher. I bet they probably would have already tried if they had the cash on hand, which is why I'm guessing if Alpha Protocol does well commercially they'll just use the profits to offer Obsidian a deal.

That being said, I really don't think acquisition would necessarily be a bad thing for Obsidian. They very clearly have their shit together to a much bigger level than Troika ever did; their first couple of games had their bumpy development for sure, but since their publishers were Atari and Lucasarts I doubt very much of that was their fault to begin with. And I really think Sega has finally turned the corner from the post-Dreamcast slump: they're partnering with talented teams (the aforementioned deals with Obsidian and Gearbox, and also with Silicon Knights and Platinum Games), and I really think the Aliens initiative could end up being the prime example of licensed games done right. Those Aliens games have been in development in some capacity for nearly two years now, and they got good studios to work in genres they're comfortable with, so it's clearly not just some shitty cash-in like we're used to publishers putting out.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Statik on 23 Aug 2008, 22:45
So wait... they contracted a dev studio with released but unfinished games under their belt to make a sickeningly complex RPGish game?

Oh, I'm so looking forward to it...



To clarify, I know it's probably not the soley the devs fault that KOTOR2, Fallout2, etc were released buggy and unfinished, but still.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 09 Oct 2008, 19:31
Oh hay, new website.

www.alphaprotocol.com

Also looks like it got pushed back a month. Whatevs.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 17 Oct 2008, 15:59
Teaser! (http://pc.ign.com/dor/objects/794750/obsidian-project-1/videos/APCGTrailer_101608.html)
(Obviously not in-game footage)
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 17 Oct 2008, 16:14
Hmm, I wonder if the design in that trailer will be represented on the in-game graphics, because something about those character models looked a little strange to me. The proportions on the faces just seemed... off.

Still, I really wish we'd just get some friggin' gameplay footage or something one of these days.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 17 Oct 2008, 16:56
In a few weeks, I reckon. It's... what, 5 months until release? Sega generally sucks with promotion, but as far as I understand it from Obsid's marketing director this is the thing that opens the floodgates, so to speak. We'll be getting more and more info as the months wear on.

As for the CG, yeah, the models are a little weird, but they seem to resemble NWN2's, from what I recall, and those weren't representative of the game engine. I can't imagine AP will have any worse in the way of character design than any other UE3 game.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: hack on 21 Oct 2008, 00:59
i am so looking foward to this game. i've played mass effect right into the ground and need a new diversion.

and unless someone changes their minds and decides to do a KotOR that isn't MMO, this looks like it will have to do.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 20 Nov 2008, 11:45
Developer diary / first actual footage of the game (http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/rpg/alphaprotocol/video/6201393/alpha-protocol-dev-diary-1-1).

Looks a bit unpolished (for example, only the arms dealer at the end of the clip seems to have significant facial movement outside of lip-sync, probably due to that portion of the game being groomed for critical screening) but otherwise, pretty damn good. The animations are very fluid.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 08 Dec 2008, 15:52
(http://diogenes-lamp.info/images/new_office.jpg)
First public image of the Aliens RPG, heh.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 04 Mar 2009, 19:14
Alright so scratch the stuff about Aliens RPG, as it may never see the light of day (which is unfortunate as Alien is my favourite film and I was very much looking forward to the game)

Just a heads up, next Friday (that would be 3/13/09) Alpha Protocol is going to be hitting Gametrailers TV in some capacity. So we'll probably see more stuff.

There's also some murkiness as to the release date. It could come out in the Summer or the Fall. Hopefully they'll tell us with this program.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: est on 04 Mar 2009, 19:24
Man, I couldn't be less jazzed for this.  It looks like KotOR/Mass Effect set in modern day spy shit.  Both those games played very clunky and got boring and generic very quickly, and the setting+trailer for this looks bland, boring and generic also.  I hope I am proven wrong, but it doesn't look too good so far.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: est on 04 Mar 2009, 19:26
I mean, like:

Quote
After a mission goes awry, Michael Thorton is cut off from all of his contacts and betrayed by his superiors and is being hunted by the United States government

come on.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: est on 04 Mar 2009, 19:35
Also, it probably doesn't help that it is using the Unreal 3 engine, which is fucking hideous.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 04 Mar 2009, 20:18
I'm not particularly enamored of UE3 myself, but it's relatively stable and (I've heard that) it's easy to work with across platforms. With game budgets getting into the 8 figures these days I don't blame companies for flocking to it. You've got to hit a lot of markets to be profitable.

I'm not buying the incredulity over a hoary initial story hook. I mean, have you played the Fable games? People love shit stories. Obsidian does not make shit stories. If you're that concerned over story tropes I don't see why you would enjoy gaming in the first place. The industry standard is pretty fuckin' low and a lot of "brilliantly written" games would not pass the muster of even B-grade film (looking at you Metal Gear Solid). A lot of great games have had shitty beginnings. Hell, a lot of great games have just had shitty plots.

I would encourage you to play the other games that Chris Avellone has helmed. They've all been excellent and, in the case of KOTORII, far superior to their predecessors in terms of plot depth. To this day it boggles my mind that he managed to make a George Lucas setting interesting.

Which isn't to say that I'm not concerned. I haven't seen much of the game but some of the concept stuff, particularly with regard to characters, has been far too campy for my tastes. But I'm confident that the writing and design will shine through.

And as far as combat goes, it's hard to say at this point what it will feel like but what's been shown so far has seemed a marked departure from the dreadful action-queue system of KOTOR and the badly designed and badly implemented shooter mechanics of ME. AP looks a lot more like, say, Splinter Cell. I think you're taking the similarities in engines / visual designs and extrapolating from those similarities that are not, in fact, apparent. But it could turn out bad, we'll see. The promise of functional CQC is probably more interesting to me than it is to others.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: est on 04 Mar 2009, 21:00
I would disagree that Descent to Undermountain was a decent game, but ok, if you think it's going to be different from the stop-start/clunky gameplay of KotOR and ME then I'll give it time and see what it is like when it's actually out.

As for Unreal Engine games, I just took a look back over the UE games list and of all of them that I have played only the Brothers in Arms series and BioShock are any good.  The BiA series is good because they have a unique squad-based interface that makes it more than a normal shooter, and the quality of BioShock's setting lifted it above the normal "great textures but jilted, unnatural motion and absolutely horrible stark, fake lighting that gives me the heebie jeebies" of the usual UE fare.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 04 Mar 2009, 22:34
Both those games played very clunky

Nope.

Quote
and got boring

Nope.

Quote
and generic

aw hell naw
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Spluff on 04 Mar 2009, 22:45
I find myself agreeing with est on pretty much all points he has raised.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: AngelofShadows on 05 Mar 2009, 13:59
from what I read, the only thing that really stands out for the game for me is the dialogue system. From what I've read, it looks to be more detailed that ME, which has me interested.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: est on 05 Mar 2009, 14:52
aw hell naw

I can appreciate that people disagree, but remember I also hate RE4, which everyone seems to pop hella boners over.  I think that I am just picky about certain things, and I can see a direct relation between the clunkiness (as preceived by myself) of the controls in KotOR, ME and RE4 and my distaste for all of them.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: AngelofShadows on 05 Mar 2009, 16:25
I didn't find the controls clunky, but I fuggin hated the item storage system. I'm a pack rat, and I don't like selling or dropping anything.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Dimmukane on 05 Mar 2009, 20:17
It's OK est, I don't like RE4 either.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Reed on 05 Mar 2009, 21:28
I am a curmudgeon
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Alex C on 06 Mar 2009, 08:04
RE4 is kinda OK on the wii.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 06 Mar 2009, 14:12
Latest news down the pipeline (from Portugal!) is that infinite ammo has been scrapped as a concept, which I like.

Other tidbits
- Usually consequences aren't immediately apparent, and seem to be of the kind which determine how certain people and groups view your character.
- the article indicates that there are four different weapon makers in addition to the four different weapons
- weapon mods
- location based damage. It doesn't mention if this includes limb crippling.
- Hand to hand combat can be lethal or just leave people unconscious
- Avoiding enemies can be tech based or stealth based
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: est on 07 Mar 2009, 01:27
I am a curmudgeon

Hey, fuck you, I like a hell of a lot of stupid games.  I think I even started a thread about how (surprisingly) good Sain't Row 2 is.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 07 Mar 2009, 01:40
According to yon Geoff Knightley the segment will feature, at the very least, one unbroken gameplay segment lasting around 2 minutes. So I guess we'll see how it plays in around a week.

Also the GTTV episode with all the new stuff airs tonight.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 13 Mar 2009, 12:08
PSN Qore segment on AP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFQ8masslQs). The music I believe is BT, so I don't really like it, but the rest of it looks pretty okay. The facial animations are still incomplete for the most part and the walking animation looks a little weird.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Scandanavian War Machine on 13 Mar 2009, 14:37
what the fuck is BT? i keep hearing about how much people hate it, but i have no idea what it even refers to.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 13 Mar 2009, 15:00
BT (http://tinyurl.com/c3gmhc)
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 13 Mar 2009, 20:02
infinite ammo has been scrapped as a concept

Infinite ammo rules for action RPGs though.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 13 Mar 2009, 20:03
"Ah crap, here come like twenty Geth, I guess I better get out my assault ri- OH SHIT" *bashes frantically at robot minions with butt of gun*
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Reed on 13 Mar 2009, 20:07
Maybe they're going more of a Deus Ex route? About 1/2 FPS and 1/2 RPG...

I remember playing Deus Ex on the harder difficulties and having to use my assault rifle sparingly because you could burn through ammo so quickly.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Spluff on 13 Mar 2009, 20:19
BT (http://tinyurl.com/c3gmhc)

That doesn't really help.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 14 Mar 2009, 13:14
GTTV episode's up (http://www.gametrailers.com/gametrailerstv_player.php?ep=51). Most of the episode is devoted to the game, but there are asides to talk about Ghostbusters and a football game I didn't catch the name of.

From the looks of it I'm hoping they'll get more polish time, maybe shoot for a September release.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 16 Mar 2009, 12:05
According to Press Release they're shooting for October, which is just as well.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 16 Mar 2009, 14:47
Is the football game Backbreaker or whatever? The one that uses Euphoria?
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 16 Mar 2009, 15:04
no idea. looked pretty good.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 17 Mar 2009, 17:06
new screenies
(http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/6532/1237221618mar0901.jpg)
(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6654/1237221618mar0902.jpg)
(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/7061/1237221618mar0903.jpg)
(http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/4518/1237221618mar0904.jpg)
(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/5566/1237221618mar0905.jpg)
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 02 Apr 2009, 14:59
There was another developer diary that leaked (came out?) today, but it's not on youtube at the moment as far as I know. Still, some people got some screenshots of character creation (ME-like) / item management (Hitman-like).
1 (http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/1452/ap1.jpg)
2 (http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/4979/ap3.jpg)
3 (http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/1027/ap4.jpg)
4 (http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/4749/ap5.jpg)
5 (http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/6017/ap6.jpg)
6 (http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9757/ap7.jpg)
7 (http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/2285/ap8.jpg)
8 (http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/8030/ap9.jpg)

I must admit that a large part of my enthusiasm for this game comes from the fact that its success could possibly have an effect on the fate of Obsidz' Aliens RPG, a game I really desperately want to get made.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 02 Apr 2009, 15:32
I'm actually probably more interested in this game than the Aliens game, just because I love Mass Effect way too much and this basically seems to be lifting all of that game's features (as Obsidian tends to do) and putting it into the intriguing setting of modern-day espionage.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 02 Apr 2009, 15:52
I love Mass Effect way too much and this basically seems to be lifting all of that game's features (as Obsidian tends to do)
Honestly the further AP keeps from ME, the happier I'll be. At the very least I hope it will be less clumsily designed, and the combat will be more enjoyable, and on both counts it looks to be shaping up that way.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 02 Apr 2009, 17:50
Second dev diary (http://www.eurogamer.pt/videos/alpha-protocol-segundo-diario-de-desenvolvimento)
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 02 Apr 2009, 19:13
less clumsily designed, and the combat will be more enjoyable

i had literally no problems with either of these things in mass effect
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: JD on 02 Apr 2009, 19:38
The combat in mass effect functioned, it didn't excel.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: ackblom12 on 02 Apr 2009, 19:54
I'm not actually sure combat has ver excelled in a Bioware game... ever. The combat was pretty enjoyable to me though, specially as a Biotic.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Spluff on 02 Apr 2009, 20:01
MDK 2
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: ackblom12 on 02 Apr 2009, 21:18
MDK2? That was Shiny Entertainment. Unless you're speaking of an entirely different game.

Edit - Ignore my obliviousness and get MDK 2.

Edit again - Wait no, This is the proper thread, MDK 2 was definitely not made my Bioware.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Ozymandias on 02 Apr 2009, 21:20
Honestly the further AP keeps from ME, the happier I'll be. At the very least I hope it will be less clumsily designed, and the combat will be more enjoyable, and on both counts it looks to be shaping up that way.

This is a bad opinion.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 03 Apr 2009, 00:55
Nah, there were definitely bad design choices in ME. Some glaring ones with level design in particular (The Citadel was poorly planned out and there are of course the sidequest planets) and the much-vaunted dialogue wheel was just a reskinned dialogue tree that actually introduced more problems than it fixed (for one, very few of the conversations actually seemed to branch). Bioware talked about all the mistakes they made during GDC, you can look up the text if you want.

And the combat was by and large boring, for a number of reasons. Tactical choices were extremely limited. Cover was spotty and poorly implemented, and the AI was not terribly good. Bioware is capable of making really incredible games (BG2 is probably my favorite game of all time, I've played it as least as much as I've played Fallout 2, which is saying something) but ME is indicative of a general decline in the quality of Bioware's design philosophy since NWN shipped (I'd say gradual but ME was far superior to Jade Empire) away from more free-form gameplay towards highly linear and controlled narratives. I liked it in KOTOR but I've liked it less every time I see it.

I've got high hopes for DA and ME2, though. I think I'll probably end up disappointed in one or both of them, but as Fallout 3 showed developers by and large aren't dumb about the inherent flaws of their design philosophies even if they are unwilling or unable to work out al the kinks.

Point is just because something is enjoyable (and ME was imminently replayable, for those first few runs) doesn't mean it's beyond criticism.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 03 Apr 2009, 08:00
I think you were on the mark on the nature of the narrative actually being fairly linear and the blandness of the sidequest level design is almost legendary but to complain that the combat was limited demonstrates borderline insanity. It was limited if you never used your abilities, never specified and targeted your partners' abilities, never worked to streamline your partners' strategies, never switched your weapons, never switched your ammo, never used grenades, and never utilized the environment. However, if you can even so much as read the preceding sentence you probably found it to be at the very least a competent combat system.

If you base your criticisms and opinions off of what the designers themselves say are the strengths and weaknesses of the game, please for your own benefit and mine never listen to me talk about my own music.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 03 Apr 2009, 11:20
But at the same time, it's very clear from all the GDC discussion on Mass Effect 2 that they are very aware of the flaws of the first game and it sounds like their design process is much more streamlined now.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 24 Apr 2009, 01:03
Sorta-walkthrough video (http://xbox360.ign.com/dor/objects/794751/obsidian-project-1/videos/alphaprotocol_trl_walkthrough_042309.html), focusing on faction choice and its implications for gameplay.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 20 May 2009, 12:20
Dev diary on dialogue and the like. (http://www.objectif-sega.com/Alpha+Protocol++la+gestion+des+dialogues+en+video-news-1446.htm)
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 29 May 2009, 00:05
CGI trailer (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-09-alpha-protocol/49822). One hopes we'd see such choices in the game itself.

Not very good CGI faces either.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Scandanavian War Machine on 29 May 2009, 10:49
if your options really are as varied as all that then i will be extremely pleased.

hopefully i'm not disappointed.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 31 May 2009, 23:17
Oh hey what's up official site (http://www.sega.com/alphaprotocol/uk/)
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: MrBlu on 01 Jun 2009, 00:08
Holy crap, I haven't seen or heard of MDK in forever. I wonder if I can still find it for the Dreamcast.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: ackblom12 on 01 Jun 2009, 00:10
MDK as in Shiny?

http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/mdk

http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/mdk_2
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 03 Jun 2009, 14:57
Walkthrough vids - 1 (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-09-alpha-protocol/50419) and 2 (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-09-alpha-protocol/50417).
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 13 Jun 2009, 12:33
A longer demo (http://gamevideos.1up.com/video/id/25198/bigger)
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 22 Jul 2009, 22:45
Walkthrough Vid Numero Dos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jujKOzHmLWA)
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: est on 22 Jul 2009, 23:09
A longer demo (http://gamevideos.1up.com/video/id/25198/bigger)

There are so many things I don't like about that clip.  There seems to be basically no urgency to the guy's actions.  A bad guy will kick open a door to surprise attack you and then stand there waiting for you to shoot him.  The snipers and running their lasers over the window where he is standing, and yet he can stand there and take his time to aim at whatever the hell he wants.  At one point there's a bad guy and a support guy standing next to each other shooting and not killing each other, then he rounds the corner and shoots the bad guy once, killing him.  There are times when he is getting shot from behind and just not paying any attention to it at all.  At some points he's crouching and walking in plain sight of anyone who isn't blind or mentally handicapped and yet none of the guards see him.  I also agree with one of the commenters when they say that it's dumb that you can be in the middle of a huge firefight in one section of the base, then turn around a corner and everyone's just walking around like they can't hear anything when they should at least be on some kind of alert.  Pretty fucking dumb.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 22 Jul 2009, 23:13
It really didn't look good, no. But if what I hear from the devs is any indication, the presentation build was early alpha, and a number of elements in the game were "weighted" to make the presentation go exactly as they wanted it to go as smoothly as possible (AI scaled back, PC made invincible and super-strong, etc.) They've got a few months yet to work out the kinks. But I don't know if I'd expect the AI to get all that great. In general, game AI is rarely consistently spectacular. It's a tough thing to try and get right - when programming for combat, you want enemies to miss some of the time, but not too often / too rarely, for example. I think the biggest problem that AP faces w/r/t AI is that they've gotten it in their heads to make stealth a viable gameplay option. It just doesn't do to make enemies realistic because if you slip up once, the entire mission becomes a disaster and you have to reload the game or fight all the way through it. Thus generally you make AI pretty fuckin' dumb - Enemies don't communicate with one another, they're relatively hard to alert and if you hide, eventually they will give up and continue their routine as though they never saw you in the first place.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: est on 22 Jul 2009, 23:18
Ok, so I just watched the second clip and realised that I also think the graphics feel dated.  There's really no excuse for it because they are running on UE3, so what the hell?  I mean, this looks like Hitman + RPG elements, so that sounds like something I could be interested in it once I see a more finished product, but at the moment it's not pushing my buttons.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 22 Jul 2009, 23:21
I don't know? I think it might be because they decided not to pursue a lot of surface effects, reflections and the like. But then I think UE3 has always been ass-ugly, especially when it comes to character models and objects, and AP is no exception.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: est on 22 Jul 2009, 23:24
Yeah, me too.  But to me it's always been ugly but felt current.  Something about the faces and lack of decent lighting effects makes me feel like this is a game from a couple years ago, not something that is set to come out in the future.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 22 Jul 2009, 23:29
Actually I think things in AP look pretty okay from a distance. It's the close-ups that really suck. The problem with all of it, as you noted, is the lighting, as there doesn't seem to be any sort of dynamic lighting at all. Maybe it's something they'll add in with the beta, but if not, hey, at least it'll work on my laptop.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: est on 22 Jul 2009, 23:33
As you said, it's still a way off release (I think?) so maybe it is something they have off for initial trailers and they'll add it in later. Who knows?

I often find though that when I am watching a trailer instead of playing the game I am more critical of the graphics because I am not experiencing the gameplay portion firsthand.  Oblivion looked absolutely dismal to me, and even now I don't like the graphics overly much but still play it and enjoy the game.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Alex C on 23 Jul 2009, 22:05
It's definitely the lighting and overall lack of textures, and the perfectly bland contemporary environments aren't helping either. You can get away with a lot with good lighting, a strong theme and a lot of textures. Case in point: Bioshock.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 19 Aug 2009, 16:08
Turns out if you prebuy AP now through Steam you'll get Space Siege free. That's like, a potentially good game and a mediocre game for the price of a potentially good game. Something to consider!
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 21 Aug 2009, 16:48
It's definitely the lighting and overall lack of textures, and the perfectly bland contemporary environments aren't helping either. You can get away with a lot with good lighting, a strong theme and a lot of textures. Case in point: Bioshock.

If they're trying to go for contemporary environments because of the setting of the game, is calling them 'bland' really a legitimate complaint? Christ, people will find a way to complain about anything.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 16 Sep 2009, 14:23
PC Gamer preview (pdf) (http://www.pcgamer.com/pdfs/Oct09_AlphaProtocol.pdf)
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Alex C on 16 Sep 2009, 15:20

If they're trying to go for contemporary environments because of the setting of the game, is calling them 'bland' really a legitimate complaint? Christ, people will find a way to complain about anything.

An old post, I know, but I would have responded to it ages ago had I noticed it.

Please refrain from acting like I'm big a huge ass whiner here. I don't care if this game looks good or bad and there's basically a 90% chance i will buy it (I feel like I owe Chris Avellone money). I have no stake in it how the sales go and I would never have mentioned the graphics if est hadn't mentioned that he thought the game looks a generation or so older than it is. And frankly, I think he's right and I think that's in large part due to the reasons I mentioned. Colorful and highly stylized art design (or a shit ton of lens flare if you're EA/lazy) can distract the eye from a console's technical shortcomings. For example, Okami is pretty low tech but the hazy art style downplays the PS2's relative inability to push textures. Alpha Protocol doesn't have that luxury thanks to its subject matter and between that and the lack of texture/lighting it looks rather unremarkable as a result. It's kind of similar to the ol' uncanny valley problem; a lot of real life environments are only visually interesting because we can see things in far greater detail than any modern console is currently capable of depicting. This is a problem when you take it upon yourselves to make a game with a sensibility more in line with the Bourne Identity than Star Wars.

tldr version: Obsidian has my sympathies; it's hard to make contemporary environments terribly interesting. But that said, my sympathies doesn't make their game any prettier.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 24 Feb 2010, 15:50
New, very slick trailer showing off the VA, which sounds pretty excellent (http://xbox360.ign.com/dor/objects/794751/obsidian-project-1/videos/alphaprotocol_trl_a_man_alone_22410.html).

There is now an official release date of June 1st in North America, May 27th in Oz and May 29th (I think) in Europe.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 10 Mar 2010, 17:45
Preview article mentioning choice / consequence (http://g4tv.com/games/xbox-360/62110/alpha-protocol/articles/70132/Alpha-Protocol-GDC-2010-Preview/).
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 11 Mar 2010, 17:54
GDC reports seem to indicate that the narrative will be fractured ala early Tarantino films. Wonder how that's going to work.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 12 Mar 2010, 01:21
6 minute gameplay vid (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/gdc-10-alpha-protocol/63046).
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 12 Mar 2010, 11:58
Looks pretty good! Some of the animation transitions are pretty awkward looking, but the combat itself looks nice and responsive. It's a little more methodical than a standard third person shooter, but since you're playing a spy it should be.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: est on 12 Mar 2010, 21:28
Ok yeah, I'm on-board now.  Looks kind of like elements and graphics from Mass Effect crossed with elements of Borderlands, which is great because I loved Borderlands but wish it had a bit more depth, and my major gripe with Mass Effect was the squad combat when I really didn't give a shit about any of my mostly-ineffectual squadmates.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 12 Mar 2010, 21:31
You'll have to give us a play-by-play. Oz is getting the game first, for once.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 01 Apr 2010, 20:10
Oh I almost forgot, I got invited out to Sega's press showing of Alpha Protocol at PAX East, and I brought Stephen (Ackblom12) with me. I'll just post a link to my recollections on the demo and on the Obsidian PAX panel - voila (http://forums.obsidian.net/index.php?showtopic=54508&st=15&start=15). In a nutshell - combat looks pretty okay, facial animations are rough, but the game is funny. Remember that part of ME2 where you stab the mechanic in the back? The 15 minutes or so of footage we were shown had at least 2 such moments.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: ackblom12 on 01 Apr 2010, 20:14
Seriously, those scenes were fantastic.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 01 Apr 2010, 20:30
Also, preorders are back on via Steam. Space Seige is still free with one.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 16 Apr 2010, 16:00
Video of the PAX East panel Steve and I attended (http://blip.tv/file/3491456/). Good stuff.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 20 Apr 2010, 12:01
New videos and such at Destructoid all this week (http://www.destructoid.com/exclusive-meet-alpha-protocol-s-grigori-and-sie-171458.phtml).
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 22 Apr 2010, 20:14
Dialogue Stance System preview at Gamespot (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/alphaprotocol/video/6259813?hd=1).
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 04 May 2010, 12:04
Game went gold today, it's finally coming out for real.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Scandanavian War Machine on 04 May 2010, 14:53
likely story
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 05 May 2010, 20:15
hmmmmm (http://twitter.com/squareenixdave/status/13378333995)
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 05 May 2010, 22:10
Whatever that project is, I'm guessing Square-Enix is preparing it for announcement at E3 next month, which the entire game industry is gearing up for right now. If the rumor is true (which I still think people are reading a lot into) I'm still having real difficulty imagining what a Western-developed Final Fantasy game would be like, particularly from a developer like Obsidian. I guarantee there will be a tremendous internet bitchfit, if nothing else.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 06 May 2010, 02:07
hmmmmm (http://twitter.com/squareenixdave/status/13378333995)

why's this in this thread
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 06 May 2010, 02:37
People who know people who know things have hinted that Obsidz is working with Squeenix on something. Could be smoke but this guy is usually right, and he picked up on AP months before anybody else did. Didn't seem like it warranted its own thread, though.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 06 May 2010, 04:16
This is especially notable since the higher-ups at Square Enix have specifically been referring to potentially shopping Final Fantasy to Western devs. There was that aborted action game that GRIN was making before they got shut down that is widely rumored to have been a spinoff in the Final Fantasy XII universe, but Wada and Kitase have been mentioning a potential Western-developed Final Fantasy even more recently than that. That coupled with the supposed Obsidian-Square Enix collaboration has led some people to conclude that the 'Project X' referred to in that tweet will be, if not Final Fantasy XV (which seems unlikely, just because of the sheer amount of outcry that would inevitably occur on both sides of the Pacific), a major entry in the Final Fantasy series that Square will get behind in a big way.

I'm still slightly skeptical, to be honest. I can see how it would make sense from SE's perspective, but I can think of very few things further outside Obsidian's wheelhouse than Final Fantasy. The idea of Chris Avellone writing for a Final Fantasy kind of makes my head spin, since it would presumably be his 'turn' since AP's done and John Gonzalez is the creative lead on New Vegas. Then again, I guess it worked for Star Wars.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 06 May 2010, 11:55
Mostly I just hate Twitter speculation, and that one tweet in particular is intensely vague, deeply vague. I'm just not a fan of playing connect-the-dots, you know?
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Alex C on 06 May 2010, 12:11
I don't mind playing at connect the dots if it's a small enough forum with relatively reasonable people. Such things mostly bother me when people turn it into a dick waving contest and start defending their pet theories despite having so li'l information to work with.

Anyway, I nearly got excited about the twitter and then I remembered that all of the stuff Square can get rights to that I'm actually interested in are all old Eidos brands that are already being resurrected in some form or other. Avellone writing for a Deus Ex game coulda been fun. Oh well. At least there probably won't be any strangely informative blind chicks running around this way.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 06 May 2010, 12:52
Mostly I just hate Twitter speculation, and that one tweet in particular is intensely vague, deeply vague. I'm just not a fan of playing connect-the-dots, you know?

Absolutely. Like I said, I still think the rumor is on pretty shaky ground. There's certainly a decent amount of anecdotal evidence, but it's very tenuous. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised either way. I will say that Square has been very open about wanting to farm out their properties, and Final Fantasy in particular, to Western development studios, and Obsidian is basically the only notable Western RPG studio not already owned by a big fish like Bioware and Bethesda. A Western Final Fantasy doesn't explicitly prevent Square from partnering with another publisher like EA or Bethesda, like we've seen with Tecmo partnering with Nintendo and Microsoft, but at that point the profit structure is not as much in their favor so I doubt they'd bother.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 06 May 2010, 14:39
For sure. I mean, what I can see is that Square wants a bigger chunk of market share nowadays than the RPG market share, and while Obsidian doing something Final Fantasish might be a really good way for them to hook their way into the market in a place nobody's really at right now, they might also just want to publish an Obsidian game beacuse it is a game that they're interested in publishing, in a field where they'd maybe like to take a bite out of someone else's market share.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 06 May 2010, 14:42
assuming that tweet is even about obsidian at all
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Scandanavian War Machine on 06 May 2010, 15:02
Squeenix has actually been publishing some of my favorite games recently, none of which have been RPGs.

I have faith in their judgment as a publisher (even if I am losing all faith in them as a developer) so I look forward to anything in the future that has their name on it (as long as it has someone else's name on it too).
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 07 May 2010, 00:18
Website is redesigned (http://www.sega.com/alphaprotocol/us/main.php), and apparently there are already some reviews - at least, Game Informer reviewed it and said "It will change the way you think about role-playing games", which is typical game review hyperbole, and not particularly trustworthy given that GI broke AP in the first place.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 07 May 2010, 01:34
I'm very curious to see how Sega handles the review embargo. If it's absolute last-minute except for an 'exclusive' early review like that Game Informer quote, that's usually a very bad sign. But it doesn't seem like Sega would do that since all along they've been very supportive of the game, giving it the development time it needed if not really the PR. I wonder if it'll be an Alan Wake or Uncharted 2 situation, where the publisher basically lets sites put up reviews as soon as they're done with the final build, so reviews start going up a week or two before the game is on shelves.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 07 May 2010, 01:52
Hard to say. We've got three weeks to the day until it goes on sale in Oz, so they'd have to start cranking them out pretty soon.

I'm expecting middling-to-good reviews. The game definitely lacks visual polish and that alone is going to prevent it from getting into the 9.0-10 range. The mixed reactions to VA should lower the max to 8.5 as well. From there it will depend on how much people like the core gameplay experience, and how seriously they take the choice conceit at the heart of the game - if reviewers don't care, I expect it to get average scores at best.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 07 May 2010, 17:03
New footage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvyMdhkR4g4), commentary in German but the VA in-game is English.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 09 May 2010, 13:28
I'm very curious to see how Sega handles the review embargo. If it's absolute last-minute except for an 'exclusive' early review like that Game Informer quote, that's usually a very bad sign.
Apparently review copies of AP have been out for at least a week, but it's been pointed out to me that the game industry handles reviews differently than the film industry does. Big games like Assassin's Creed 2 and Batman: Arkham Asylum don't get pre-day of release reviews unless they're over 9.0
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: snalin on 10 May 2010, 05:07
New footage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvyMdhkR4g4), commentary in German but the VA in-game is English.

Ich bin so geil für dieses Spiel! That's all I managed to catch, but I guess I agree.

EDIT: that review seemed very positive, from the rest I could hear. My German is rusty to say the least.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 10 May 2010, 11:43
I'm very curious to see how Sega handles the review embargo. If it's absolute last-minute except for an 'exclusive' early review like that Game Informer quote, that's usually a very bad sign.
Apparently review copies of AP have been out for at least a week, but it's been pointed out to me that the game industry handles reviews differently than the film industry does. Big games like Assassin's Creed 2 and Batman: Arkham Asylum don't get pre-day of release reviews unless they're over 9.0

Again, it depends on how the publisher handles it. Reviews for Alan Wake have been going up since last week, and that game isn't out until next week. Uncharted 2 also had reviews going up over a week before ship date. But like you said, Ubisoft is very protective of its review embargoes, and some other publishers are as well although I'm not sure if they have hard and fast policies or if they change it depending on their sales projections.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 10 May 2010, 12:43
*whoops*
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 17 May 2010, 19:11
So according to yon internets, the first published review of AP has been released via the Spanish mag Playmania. Here's the (translated) summary:
Quote
    * Graphics -> 80 - The exteriors are not so bad but the models and their animations are far from perfect.

    * Sound -> 90 - Appropriate soundtrack.

    * Diversity -> 89 - Even though it's the same game, there are many possibilities when it comes to customizing your character and deciding how to play.

    * Duration -> 90 - The replayability factor is really high. You can play Alpha Protocol a lot of times without experiencing the same adventure.

    * Overall -> 88 - A spy role playing game that succeeds in blending action with stealth and gives players a high degree of freedom in choosing how they want to proceed.

The Best parts of Alpha Protocol -> The freedom to choose how you want to acoplish your objectives and a great decision making system.
The Worst parts of Alpha Protocol -> Outdated graphics and basic AI.

Given that AP is not being pushed by a major publisher and it looks dated, I figure 88 is probably going to be the best they can hope for in reviews. The 90's are generally reserved for Event games nowadays.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 17 May 2010, 19:29
Sega's not a major publisher? Still, I agree that the inevitable graphics criticism will probably hurt the Metacritic score considerably. I'm guessing it'll be in the 75-80 range. Whatever, I put so little stock in Metacritic that I couldn't give a shit.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 19 May 2010, 19:46
A new, fairly spoiler-y trailer (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/choose-surkovs-alpha-protocol/100103).
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 21 May 2010, 13:48
Interactive "Choose Your Own Adventure"-style trailer (http://blog.metacafe.com/2010/05/exclusive-alpha-protocol-interactive-gameplay-trailer/). Fairly smart gimmick. Spoiler-y, or so I'm told.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 26 May 2010, 20:51
Word on the street is that Gamersgate may have broken street date on pre-orders. Becaus I'm a nut I got a pre-order and indeed, they give you a serial #. We'll see if that translates to actual gaming in about an hour and a half!
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 27 May 2010, 00:12
Yep. If you haven't ordered AP yet and would rather play it sooner than later, Gamersgate jumped the gun on serial numbers. Game's pretty good so far, but I've only covered the intro so far...

*edit - Gamersgate reportedly plugged the error. I got lucky, I suppose.

Anyway, for big names I keep imagining that Christopher Walken is going to show up. Maybe the universe is sending me vibes.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 27 May 2010, 01:15
Hurry up and play more. If I weren't spending all my free time playing Super Mario Galaxy 2 anyway, I'd be way more pissed that people are playing it already while I can't. I demand details, goddamn it.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 27 May 2010, 03:01
I'm not too far into it, so no choice / consequence as of yet, but the dialogue system is well-paced, not too quick but usually not too slow either (gotta make decisions). Otherwise it's like a cross between Deus Ex and Splinter Cell. Naturally I'm playing as a stealth / martial arts pacifist my first playthrough and it's a lot of fun. The stealth is challenging, even if the AI is too "smart" (see: omnipresent) sometimes. Melee combat feels pretty good - it was the one part of the game designed by Josh Sawyer, who's the lead on New Vegas.

No bugs at this point either, though some of the animation / models remind me of Bloodlines (that's not good). Though it hasn't been that bad. Environs are typical UE3 stuff. They feel a lot more dynamic than ME1, but combat isn't quite as well structured as ME2's.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 28 May 2010, 10:50
Most of the way through the game now. The encounters and scenes shown to me by Obsidz two months ago didn't show up in my playthrough. There is a fair bit of branching in the middle of the game, and most of it has to do with the context of your missions - I went Taipei - > Rome - > Moscow, and as a result I've had a relationship with the G22 through most of the game, but only the last few missions with the VCI. Had I switched up the order of things, that would be different, and the things I'm doing and the way I'm doing them would be different. There have been a few interesting twists, and a few tour de force conversation pieces (with one character in particular), and for a first-time action RPG Obsidz have really outdone themselves - Stealth is pretty good especially at higher levels, which is hard to pull off, and weapon combat is, as I said, better than ME1's but not quite as polished as ME2's. I haven't run into any bugs at all besides the obligatory UE3 issues (some momentary texture pop-in, etc.)

The reviews are trickling out even though there's an embargo till the 1st. Most seem to be around the 80's as expected, though some have gone lower. Gamespot gave it a 6/10 and G4TV gave it a 2/5. 1Up gave it a B+ and it's a surprisingly good review (http://www.1up.com/do/reviewPage?cId=3179545).

Anyway, more thoughts upon completion.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 28 May 2010, 16:27
I'm not entirely sure what to think. The SA thread seems split down the middle. Some people like it a lot, most seem to say it's fun despite being kinda fucked technically, and some are calling it an irredeemable pile of shit. I'm a little wary, I really want to like this game and to support Obsidian but gaming money is really tight for me these days and I feel like I should almost hold off and wait until it gets cheaper.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Damnable Fiend on 28 May 2010, 19:21
Giant Bomb has a Quick Look for this game up (http://www.giantbomb.com/quick-look-alpha-protocol/17-2551/).

Seems like, unsurprisingly, this game is more about telling a cool and immersive story rather than necessarily having really polished gameplay (and graphics).  Which is pretty much what I expected from a game involving Chris Avellone. (not that I mean that as an insult to the man, I guess I just meant that the games he works on tend to have brilliant writing and then other people go and make so-so gameplay to go along with it.)

Anyways, getting this when I can.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 28 May 2010, 23:33
I'm not sure what to think either, as I've gotten to the endgame and I have yet to encounter a single major bug of any sort. The harshest reviews speak of incredibly obnoxious bugs that are constant. I have no idea what's going on. Maybe the different console versions have different levels of polish? The PC version has been remarkably clean for me.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: look out! Ninjas! on 29 May 2010, 22:03
Ahahaha. Oh Jim Sterling, I love your style so much.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 29 May 2010, 23:28
I didn't know who that was so I went to google and upon entering the name the first suggested search is "Jim Sterling is a Douche". I see his reputation precedes him.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 30 May 2010, 00:17
It's accurate, Jim Sterling is a giant douche. He ranks right up there with Tim Rogers as far as smug 'ironic' game journalists go.

Still waffling on whether or not I should pick up my preorder and pay the full 60 for this game or not. I really want to like it, and more proponents are starting to show up in the SA thread, but I'd be more comfortable if the Metacritic was closer to 80 than 65.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 30 May 2010, 01:24
From what I can tell there seems to be a oceanic divide - European critics are generally giving it higher numbers than American ones. Really it comes down to the Action-RPG distinction. Those who review it as an action game have low scores and those who review it as an RPG give it higher scores. It's much easier to review as an action game, of course, given that the core game experience is TPS. There's a lot of fretting about the numbers side of the combat, but it doesn't really feel all that different from Deus Ex, for the most part. I have noticed a definite balance issue with the pistol - it's really a stealth tool more than a gunfight weapon. The Assault Rifle is very powerful, and the SMGs seem to be as useless as they are tacky, which is to say, they're pretty useless. Haven't run with the shotgun yet.

There are also complaints that the "suave" Thorton personality is oily and smug, and I agree, but that seems like a dumb criticism considering it's one of three approaches, no different from paragon / renegade in ME or any other similar RPG system. And there are the inevitable "Obsidian = good plot / RPG mechanics, lots of bugs", but as I said, the number of bugs seem to be relatively minor among people who have played it. There haven't been a lot of reports in the first 2 days of release. It seems to be more of a media narrative, a sort of meme, than anything at this point. Alpha Protocol does lack a certain amount of polish, and I think people confused "unpolished" with "buggy" (blame big game budgets) but it's nowhere near the point of, say, any of Troika's games. AP looks pretty decent for the most part, and the most glaring system issues seem to lie with the UE3 version they're using - there's very little in the way of physics and there's some texture pop-in but not much. I expect that problem to be worse on consoles, as it was with ME1.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 30 May 2010, 11:24
To be honest, I haven't seen much criticism of graphical bugs or anything like that. The three issues people who dislike the game seem to be taking as far as I can see are 1) poor gun combat, 2) bad AI, and 3) poor game balance. Depending on how negative the person is, the severity of these issues can either be 'problematic but acceptable', or 'a profane crime against God'. The first two I could see myself dealing with, because honestly very few games do AI well and I dealt with bad gun combat enough to play through ME1 four times. It's the last one that really kills me, because if some builds are just crippled and can't get through the game then that's a huge problem with the basic conceptual structure of Alpha Protocol.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 30 May 2010, 11:48
I've been reading Tim Rogers' stuff over at Action Button Dot Net and he reins it in a lot over there, I feel, talking instead mostly about sophisticated game design. I'm way more impressed with his own stuff than the work he does for Kotaku.

Jim Sterling, though. Profound shithead.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 30 May 2010, 11:51
Running through the game again, I think the game is a lot like the first two Fallouts in terms of skill design, with Small Guns replaced by Stealth - as far as builds go, it's almost universally beneficial. Running stealth seems to have the most obvious benefits in terms of mission outcomes and the like, although I'm assured the blunt approach has its advantages as well. I haven't attempted a combat character, but I think it's turning out to be Martial Arts > Assault Rifle > Shotgun > SMG > Pistol in terms of how useful they are in combat, though martial arts are really best utilized as a fallback for stealth characters who get spotted - you don't have to clear distances and MA are incredibly powerful at high levels. At hard difficulty MA are probably less useful, as you can die more easily.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 30 May 2010, 11:53
I've been reading Tim Rogers' stuff over at Action Button Dot Net and he reins it in a lot over there, I feel, talking instead mostly about sophisticated game design. I'm way more impressed with his own stuff than the work he does for Kotaku.

Jim Sterling, though. Profound shithead.
Wow, he gave ME2 1 1/2 stars out of 5. Ballsy.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 30 May 2010, 11:57
And wrong.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 30 May 2010, 12:04
I don't know, I'm cutting through all the basketball talk (does this guy write for Cokemachine Glow by any chance?) and I think his analysis of the second playthrough jibes with my experience. The flaws of the game came out much brighter the second time around.

He does seem to be pretty hardcore into abstract game design, though, to a greater extent than even I - it's not often that a reviewer cut away the pretense of a game and looks at the levers and pulleys and logical circuitry that make up a game experience. I'm not sure I even want that, but it's fascinating enough to read at this moment. Once you get around his loquaciousness he makes some pretty strong points about the linearity of the ME mission system and the strict control of story elements to be doled out in small doses when missions are checked off (and by extension, Bioware's entire "choice" apparatus) - "inevitable combat portions in between conversation monsters" is both brashly reductive and surprisingly accurate. I'll be interested to see how he tackles AP, if he does. They are quite similar in many ways.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 30 May 2010, 12:16
no, he did already, and the mechanics of the game are gamebreaking for him

meanwhile eurogamer gave it a 7 and made a weird worcestershire sauce analogy
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 30 May 2010, 12:25
Do you have a link? I can't find it on Google. I did, however, find an SA article in which he's given the distinction of writing the two worst game reviews of 2005 (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/five-worst-gaming-2.php), seemingly for his Cokemachine Glow-y proclivities.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 30 May 2010, 12:30
Also hey, is that Tim Rogers guy the one who wrote that "editorial" about Japan on Kotaku some months back, the one that literally took me 2 hours to read? I feel like there may be something wrong with this guy.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Ozymandias on 30 May 2010, 12:38
Yeah Rogers writes an article a month for Kotaku and they are uniformly and universally shit terrible.

Dude is the worst.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 30 May 2010, 13:50
Also hey, is that Tim Rogers guy the one who wrote that "editorial" about Japan on Kotaku some months back, the one that literally took me 2 hours to read? I feel like there may be something wrong with this guy.

Yes, his Kotaku articles are absurdly long, self-absorbed, stream of consciousness bullshit and I've never gotten more than a few paragraphs into one without rolling my eyes and doing something else. And I am not particularly discerning in how I waste my time.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 30 May 2010, 16:33
Quote
The one-two-three emotional punch of Chrono Trigger opening stages lays everything on the line. We have pleasant chumming and character-development at the Millennial Fair, we have quirky medieval time-traveling hijinks in 600 AD, we have the trial and conviction in the present, and then the revelation of the premature end of the world. The rest of the story sees the characters spanning seven crucial eras of world history, jumping all the way back to the year 65,000,000 BC to find a stone to repair the legendary sword Masamune, which must be wielded by a hero (now turned into a humanoid frog) to defeat an evil wizard named Magus, who they suspect is attempting to summon Lavos from the ether in the year 600. It turns out to all just be a wild goose chase — Magus isn’t really a bad guy; he’s summoning Lavos because he wants to kill the monster, to set right some tragedy that occurred in the past, and we realize we’ve just spent the past dozen hours of gameplay messing up his whole righteous plan.

The tale splits in wild directions from this point. It’s like a hit television series striding into its second season — new characters are introduced, old characters change, major overarching plot details rise slowly from the ashes. The wildest, most imaginative fragments of the game’s tale take place in the year 12,000 BC, at the height of an enlightened civilization, where a mysterious prophet intones warnings of armageddon to a vain queen set on building an enormous palace beneath the ocean — which will draw all of its electrical power from the sleeping parasite nested in the earth’s core. These script for these sequences was written by Masato Kato, the man who had been responsible for the invention of in-game cinematics in Tecmo’s Ninja Gaiden.

The developmental theme of Chrono Trigger, then, was “talent”. Something tells me it was all Yuji Horii’s idea — get talented people together under a unified purpose, let everyone do what they excel at, and then bundle the results up into a highly polished package. Masato Kato, for example, would go on to pen stories for Xenogears and Chrono Trigger’s prodigal (as in, one day it will return to us, and we will see about actually loving it) sequel Chrono Cross, and he’d mostly pump out noisy nonsense, though in moderation — in Chrono Trigger — his talents sparkle.

Tim Rogers!
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Alex C on 30 May 2010, 23:33
To me, he will always be the 10 million page Animal Crossing guy.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 31 May 2010, 15:09
his ffXIII review is like 18000 words long and also totally right all the way through
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: David_Dovey on 01 Jun 2010, 05:19
Actually I think the thing that is shitting me off the most about all of the examples of Tim Rogers' stuff in this thread is the guys seems to spend a great part of the review just explaining, without comment, every single thing that happens in the game. I don't need to read a review to know the plot of a game, and I definitely don't want to have to sift through 10000 words of "the
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 01 Jun 2010, 10:07
Alright John, let's put it on the line here. Should I buy this game for 60 dollars or take the 5 dollar hit and wait for it to get cheaper?
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Alex C on 01 Jun 2010, 13:33
Actually I think the thing that is shitting me off the most about all of the examples of Tim Rogers' stuff in this thread is the guys seems to spend a great part of the review just explaining, without comment, every single thing that happens in the game. I don't need to read a review to know the plot of a game, and I definitely don't want to have to sift through 10000 words of "the
  • does [y] which results in [z]" you fuck
You left out the part where he talks about making vegan burritos between inputs.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 01 Jun 2010, 13:43
Alright John, let's put it on the line here. Should I buy this game for 60 dollars or take the 5 dollar hit and wait for it to get cheaper?
I think it's probably worth the $60. Play through as a stealthy guy first - by all accounts, it seems to be a better designed approach than combat.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: David_Dovey on 01 Jun 2010, 20:17
You left out the part where he talks about making vegan burritos between inputs.

I left it out because I trust everyone on this forum is smart enough to notice that is some proper bullshit, but may be so caught up in Rogers' more obvious deficiencies to notice the reason his reviews take 2 hours to read is because he is writing the novelisation of the plot that fuck
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 02 Jun 2010, 04:49
Alright so, I've played through Saudi Arabia and about half of Taipei, here are my first impressions:

Animation isn't great, but it doesn't bother me as much as I thought it would. Gunplay is pretty much like ME1 where it's frustrating as hell until you get some point in your weapon of choice, and then it becomes much more manageable. The game really, really rewards you for picking what you want to be good at and focusing on it. I've been dumping pretty much all my AP into Stealth and Pistols, with a rank in Martial Arts once in a while. Going non-lethal has been surprisingly easy for me so far, tranq rounds are absurdly expensive but I've been finding enough on-site that I haven't had to buy any more since Saudi Arabia. Silent takedowns are my bread and butter, though, I've probably used them on half of the enemies I've taken out. It's a little goofy that the cameras' vision cone are bright green, but no more than seeing them on the minimap in MGS, I guess.

I really like the characters so far. Scarlet Lake and Steven Heck are my favorites of everyone I've met after the few hours. Heck especially, he's given me several laugh out loud moments in the relatively short time I've interacted with him so far. Even Darcy is a douche, but an enjoyable one. The choices so far have been intriguing. Not so much the dialogue choices (although I do enjoy the dialouge system quite a bit), but more when the game forces you to take a stance on letting a person live or die without giving you a clear 'right' choice. They've definitely made good on the moral ambiguity so far, and I have no idea how the two big choices I made in Saudi Arabia will play out in the endgame.

I do have some gripes about the mission design, though. There are some points (3 or 4 so far for me) where the game forces you into combat with a bunch of dudes and there just isn't a whole lot you can do about it. Since I've been trying to play the game as stealthily as possible and have specced my Thorton appropriately, it's kind of frustrating that they do that so frequently, and I haven't even faced a real boss yet. Secondly, the enemy vision is really inconsistent and weird, it's not always clear when you're safe to move and when you aren't. I've had a guy somehow spot me from behind cover while turning away from me. Also, the lockpick minigame can eat a big bag of dicks because I'm OCD and need to hack every computer and open every safe I find and the lockpick minigame has made me reload checkpoints so many goddamn times.

Despite a certain degree of frustration, I enjoyed it enough to spend most of my day playing it. So that should count for something, I guess.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 02 Jun 2010, 05:39
Yeah there have been consistent complaints about the lockpicking minigame. I've been playing with a 360 controller and the game is much, much smoother and easier.

As for stealth combat, take a level or two and bump up martial arts. They'll do in a pinch for most enemies.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 02 Jun 2010, 11:24
Yeah, the thing is I've been pumping Pistols so much even though I use hand-to-hand more because I've heard the higher ranks of Chain Shot turn the bosses into a cakewalk. I'm assuming I'll probably run into the first one at the end of Taipei, so I want to be ready. I took the Spy specialization because the tag skills were the exact 3 I wanted, but I've only got two ranks in Martial Arts so far because I've been so singularly focused on Stealth and Pistols and those skills are two of the most expensive AP-wise.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 03 Jun 2010, 14:38
Just finished my first run. My final thoughts are pretty much the same as what I said earlier: I really enjoy the dialogue and characters, the dialogue stance and branching path promises are paid in full, and the thrust of the main plot is pretty well done as well. But it's marred by mediocre gunplay, bad enemy AI and a bunch of other niggling flaws that make the game frustrating even as you really want to see what happens next. I still recommend anybody on the fence to pick it up, if not for full price then for cheap or as a rental or something. It's worth experiencing and the branching paths mean that any single playthrough isn't too long.

Also John, you need to get your ass on Meebo more often, I haven't seen you there in hella days and I want to talk spoilers.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Scandanavian War Machine on 03 Jun 2010, 16:20
gah i want to play this so badly but I cannot possibly justify it with RDR, SMG2, 3dDGH, and Blur sitting unfinished by my tv.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 07 Jun 2010, 10:39
People who know people who know things have hinted that Obsidz is working with Squeenix on something. Could be smoke but this guy is usually right, and he picked up on AP months before anybody else did. Didn't seem like it warranted its own thread, though.
So my guy was right. Obsidian is making Dungeon Siege 3 (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=397483) for Squeenix.

Ehhhh. Pretty classic Obsidian job. I couldn't really care less about Dungeon Siege, though. Indications are that work has been done on the game since '08, and everybody that I've talked to about it says it looks pretty great. Should see some stuff at E3.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: ackblom12 on 07 Jun 2010, 10:49
Alright, I've got a few hours into AP and I seriously think the 6 scores are more than a little unwarranted. I could see 7.5 - 8 being much much more reasonable. the games controls are mediocre (greatly improved with the 360 pad compared to PC) but the skill usage is fairly intuitive. The minigames for hacking and the like I'm actually quite enjoying flavor wise. They're short, require you to pay close attention and connect the pieces of the puzzle at a pace that fits the setting quite well.

Agreed that AI is a bit wonky, but it's not wonky in a "this doesn't work" fashion from what I can tell thus far.

Everything just feels like this game engine would have been pretty alright if it had been released 2 years earlier. It's behind the times, the gameplay has quite a few flaws, though nothing gamebreaking, but it doesn't seem like anything is terrible as so many reviewers seem to feel. I also have no idea how anybody can feel that it's fair to directly compare it and score it accordingly to ME2.

As for the controls, keep in mind I haven't messed around with guns at all up to this point.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 05 Jul 2010, 01:17
i'm ankle deep at most and i can already tell i'm not going to like the combat and stealth in this game. it's way too janky. conversation is a delight but i feel like a lot of the game is probably going to turn out to be busywork to get me from chat to chat.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 05 Jul 2010, 17:15
Best I can tell you is go for a stealth build (Stealth + Pistols). If they hadn't included forced combat as a point of design, it wouldn't be such a problem, but as others have said, the Chain Shot ability is almost too overpowered.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Alex C on 05 Jul 2010, 19:18
What KvP said. I keep technical aptitude higher than Stealth for most of the game though, actually. Technical aptitude is basically a grab bag skill that gives some minor bonuses, and its rank 8 ability, Brilliance, lets you reset all your other cooldowns. More importantly, it costs only 3 advancement points, so you can have a fair amount of technical aptitude without gimping either pistols or stealth. And frankly, there isn't much that back to back Chain Shots won't solve.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 06 Jul 2010, 00:15
the chain shot works for me really well because it's very similar to splinter cell's mechanic where you execute a guy and then can do a limited number of instant kills, so i can pretend that the action is gratifying (except when a dude spots me and evasion kicks in spoiling the whole damn thing)
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 06 Jul 2010, 10:10
Due to weak sales, AP will not be getting a sequel, according to yon Sega.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 06 Jul 2010, 14:44
Who's surprised by this news?

I'll wait.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Alex C on 06 Jul 2010, 15:17
I'm not surprised, but it does kinda bum me out.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 06 Jul 2010, 23:27
Yeah it was more or less apparent from the time the reviews first started coming in. MCA's statements since release more or less back up the anonymous statements made by the ex-dev on Joystiq re: Sega's mismanagement (specifically that Sega was never consistent in what they demanded, leading to a number of do-overs over the years, and that the publisher-demanded 8 month delay was mandated to be unproductive) but he came out defending the exec producer, who he says saved the project rather than doomed it.

I would have liked to have seen a sequel - they certainly set up one with the ending and at the very least they might have smoothed out a lot of their weird design ala the jump in quality from ME1 to ME2. But it looks like Obsidz's run with Sega is clearly over, and they can't justify bringing a sequel to another developer.

To be honest I think this is something we all kind of expected would happen. The combat really is rather clunky (aside from the martial arts, which I think are the most satisfying means of fighting in the game) and that more or less doomed the game. Looking back on it MCA told me at PAX what he's said after release, which is that they didn't make the game they wanted to make, and they did what they could with what circumstances gave them. I'm not even sure their original ideas ("honeycomb" instead of linear plot structure, more freedom, lighter tone) would have made it a bigger hit.

It's rough, certainly. Playing through it, AP felt a lot like Bloodlines, in that there was a certain roughness to the systems and the visual aspects of the game, but also a depth of polish and functionality with regards to more esoteric aspects of the game, particularly pertaining to choice and consequence, that is really unparalleled in Western gaming. I, as well as a lot of people, found those esoteric strengths to be more than enough to recommend the game, but the fact of the matter is that most people really don't care, and as MCA says himself, it's the base-level gameplay that appeals to people, and the base-level gameplay, while not as atrocious as that in Bloodlines, was not up to snuff of the games that AP tried to emulate. It's a really good first draft for a studio that's never done this sort of thing before, but it's not really good enough to carry it. Over time I think that AP's reputation will be rehabilitated in the same way that Bloodlines was (perhaps to a greater extent) but that always comes with the sort of cult that RPGs like this foster. But we're living in the age of $30 million averages in game budgets, and Obsidz's cult acclaim does it about as much good from a practical standpoint as, say, Kurosawa's did back in the day.

I just hope that Obsidz can capitalize on this failure gracefully. Dungeon Siege 3 is going to be their second Action RPG and it's apparently looking pretty great already, though they're de-emphasizing the usual Obsidz strengths of writing and characterization and the like. And of course I'll be really surprised if New Vegas doesn't do fantastically. The trouble is that it's looking like Obsidz can't really fulfill its potential - the ignorant gaming masses tend to characterize them as riders of Bioware's coattails. Not just in the sense of picking up sequels but in emulating design and the like, when in actuality Obsidian has a much greater focus on more complex and involved RPG system mechanics as a means to engaging players over the big feelings and epic narrative sweep that Bioware has used so effectively. You can think of Bioware as a Spielberg to Obsidz' Kubrick (you could also paint them as a Zemeckis) I don't feel like the sort of reactivity in Alpha Protocol is something that we'll be seeing more of, and I think that's a shame. Obsidz gets knocked for being too much like Bioware but in this case I think they got knocked for not being enough like Bioware. Oh well. I know Feargus has been trying to get a Baldur's Gate 3 started, maybe MCA can make some use with that.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 06 Jul 2010, 23:58
Yeah, I may not be surprised by this news but despite the rough edges Alpha Protocol does some things extremely well that I'm sure will die with it and that's a shame. New Vegas should be the feel-good commercial success that Obsidian deserves.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Ozymandias on 07 Jul 2010, 00:04
So wait, back up.

Feargus's plan to get out from under Bioware's shadow would be to make a sequel to another beloved Bioware franchise which, BTW, would have to be under the ever so forgiving publishing of Atari right now? I'm not sure that's a worthwhile idea right there.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 07 Jul 2010, 00:17
Hard to say. I know Obsidz really couldn't care less about how people see them in relation to Bioware and never have, and I also know they don't have any sort of aversion to making sequels (they were part of a pretty cool sounding PAX panel on this, but it was 2 hours before my flight left). If they didn't make sequels they would've folded years ago. With KOTOR2 and New Vegas (and to a lesser extent with NWN2), they've had an emphasis on extensively expanding systems and features with their iterations.

The thing with Baldur's Gate is that the license has always been kind of screwy. Black Isle had it for awhile but then they lost the overall D&D license, which meant they could only make a Baldur's Gate game, albeit one without characters from or reference to the first two. So it would be a BG in name only. There are apparently means of spinning similar license trickery in the present (Ferg mentioned open licensing ala KOTOR, which could technically cover 4th ed.) but yeah, it wouldn't be the wisest plan to bet on Atari right now (though I'm sure Atari could scrounge up some good capital, at least initially, behind a viable BG3 attempt. They'd probably be worse managers than Sega.) They could go straight to Hasbro, perhaps. If Onyx is as awesome as previewers are saying it is, it could make a good engine for a D&D sequel.

Elsewhere, in the latest bit of gaming press distortion re: Obsidz, Ferg and one of their lead designers were asked what Squeenix property they'd like to develop and they mentioned Chrono Trigger, and apparently this is news, though I'm pretty sure they were being flippant. That seems far less likely than a BG3.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Ozymandias on 07 Jul 2010, 00:32
Squenix is not going to give Chrono 3 to an American company and anyone who has a job in making video game RPGs would want to make that. It is silly that anyone would consider that news.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 07 Jul 2010, 13:50
So wait, back up.

Feargus's plan to get out from under Bioware's shadow would be to make a sequel to another beloved Bioware franchise which, BTW, would have to be under the ever so forgiving publishing of Atari right now? I'm not sure that's a worthwhile idea right there.

Who said he cared at all about getting out from under Bioware's shadow? Feargus's numero uno job is to keep Obsidian open and running. If they've gotta make a few sequels to other people's games to do that, then that's business, and Baldur's Gate is something that the ex-Black Isle guys worked on in at least some capacity back in the day anyway. I know Josh Sawyer was making Interplay's BG3 before that got shitcanned. I have no idea how they'd transition the gameplay into 2010 design realities, but that's another problem entirely. As for the Baldur's Gate IP, as far as I know all of the D&D stuff for games in particular is still caught in a legal battle between Atari and Hasbro. Feargus did mention something in an interview recently about wanting to do a game with the 4e rules and potentially avoiding the whole D&D license clusterfuck (and having to work with Atari again) by doing an open licensing like Bioware did with KotOR and d20, but if that's even possible it's probably still in the very early stages of concept/negotiation at best. Maybe that's how they'd do the Wheel of Time game, if that ever gets off the ground.

I think New Vegas is the best of these deals that they struck, because it's a property that they have prior experience with and unlike Dungeon Siege it's something people actually care about. Ironically, Bethesda approached them about the deal rather than the other way around, and it sounds like Todd Howard has been remarkably lasseiz-faire about the tweaks Obsidian made to both the gameplay and the storytelling of Fallout 3 for NV. Whether or not that will be incorporated into Fallout 4, I can't say, it probably mostly depends on the fan response. It seems like the relationship with Bethesda has been much more amiable than the publishing deals with Lucasarts, Atari, and Sega. I've seen a couple of offhand comments from Josh on his Formspring about being stressed over the relatively short dev cycle, but it sounds like they were cognizant of that from the beginning (hence why they didn't do a substantial graphical overhaul) and it wasn't a situation like with KotOR 2 where Lucasarts basically completely pulled the rug out from under them.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 08 Jul 2010, 01:01
yeah a lot about new vegas looks like a thing basically going right for obsidian for once in their careers. it's probably going to make a ton of bank and unless they somehow completely screw the pooch with it it's probably going to be a success in other ways too.

It's rough, certainly. Playing through it, AP felt a lot like Bloodlines, in that there was a certain roughness to the systems and the visual aspects of the game, but also a depth of polish and functionality with regards to more esoteric aspects of the game, particularly pertaining to choice and consequence, that is really unparalleled in Western gaming. I, as well as a lot of people, found those esoteric strengths to be more than enough to recommend the game, but the fact of the matter is that most people really don't care, and as MCA says himself, it's the base-level gameplay that appeals to people, and the base-level gameplay, while not as atrocious as that in Bloodlines, was not up to snuff of the games that AP tried to emulate. It's a really good first draft for a studio that's never done this sort of thing before, but it's not really good enough to carry it. Over time I think that AP's reputation will be rehabilitated in the same way that Bloodlines was (perhaps to a greater extent) but that always comes with the sort of cult that RPGs like this foster. But we're living in the age of $30 million averages in game budgets, and Obsidz's cult acclaim does it about as much good from a practical standpoint as, say, Kurosawa's did back in the day.

i'm in pain over this entire paragraph dude. i mean i agree its esoteric aspects are reason enough to recommend it (the actual impact of choices is neat to watch but even the way those choices get made and the way the player is rustled into the narrative flow through the dialogue system is actually fantastic), but it's not so much that people don't care about the esoteric stuff as that the lack of lustre on the stuff that the gamer has to immediately connect with on a moment-to-moment basis seriously hampers enjoyment. i'm at a point in the game now where i'm enjoying the action but that came after hours in which shooting and sneaking and simple actions were honestly excruciating.

the argument that people didn't want to look past the occasionally quite shitty gameplay in order to find the turd-stained gems underneath isn't really compelling, because they really shouldn't have to look past it. we're not just living in the age of $30 million budgets, we're living in the age when basically games are expected to be fun right away, not later after you've put in your time suffering through the stuff that is totally broken unless you have a certain amount of xp. obsidian doesn't have to give us PUSH BUTTON TO WIN GAME gameplay to get higher metacritic scores and/or sales, they just need to be able to deliver an experience that is compelling and entertaining on a visceral level too.

like i'm wishing it did have a sequel but really the only way their properties like this are going to get sequels is if they make them actually fun games. if history consequently sees AP as it is - a clever and rewarding experience with serious unresolved, seemingly unnoticed core issues - rather than as some kind of tainted glimmer of the way things could have been, then maybe obsidian will finally own up to the fact that there are glaring problems with their design process and quality control and then they'll smooth those problems out and then they'll produce a game that's actually unfuckwithable like we all know they are capable of doing.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 08 Jul 2010, 02:38
I don't disagree, and neither does Obsidz, really. They'd be the first to tell you where they fucked up. Sawyer has not really been shy with his low opinion of NWN2 (granted he came in during the 20% or so of the development cycle, but still) and the shoddy design that Obsidz has put in, in general. MCA doesn't go that far (he's a co-owner of the business, after all) but he has echoed your sentiments re: core gameplay pretty consistently. He has to say it over and over, since there's a large contingent of Obsidz' fanbase that is eternally frustrated that they aren't making turn-based Infinity Engine games anymore. He always says that the things that players remember most about games tend to be serendipitous and impressive events within games that aren't set up beforehand - what I most enjoyed about Fallout 2 wasn't necessarily the freedoms inherent to the game's design but the fact that you could get into a fight in a bar and one critical miss on the part of enemy could turn the scene into a Wild West-style free for all, with everything going nuts in slow motion.

The sense that I get is that they really did their level best. The combat on the whole is problematic for reasons that I can't really put my finger on - it has all the things that ought to make combat pretty okay - relative variation in approach, activated abilities, clearly understandable hit detection, enemy reactions, etc. but it's still not all that good. I think the two biggest things are samey AI throughout (intel gives you all these "strategies" that factions are supposed to employ but they all fight and die in the same ways) and a de-emphasis on movement, something that Bioware really honed in on in their design facelift from ME1 to ME2 - combat in most cases involves sitting behind cover and "charging" critical hits, which isn't all that dynamic in terms of action. One of the reasons I liked AP as much as I did my first playthrough was because I was a martial arts character, I think - aside from the Brayko fight and maybe Marburg the melee build is actually far quicker and more effective than gun builds, provided the right level of added toughness and given the inaccuracy of most of the enemies. I think mainly I'm just miffed because I went in looking to compare this game to ME1, which I thought was fairly reasonable given the timeframe (content and systems were hammered out long before we saw anything from ME2), and I think AP is a much, much better game than ME1 in almost every respect. But since it plays like a 2-year old game instead of a 2-month old game, it gets 3 or 4/10s? Rubs me as arbitrary. Which it is, but life isn't fair and all that.

The trouble is that this seems to sound the death knell of a certain stats-intensive sort of Action RPG, the rare sort descended from Deus Ex. As an example of that particular style AP is actually pretty exemplary (though the AI is still a big sucking hole) but what reaction seems to indicate is that RPGs in the future had better not really include stats at all, at least none that directly influence the experience of the game. It started with Oblivion's shift to twitch combat from Morrowind's comical dicerolling and it seems like it's ended with ME2's complete streamlining of the character concept.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: David_Dovey on 08 Jul 2010, 06:17
the argument that people didn't want to look past the occasionally quite shitty gameplay in order to find the turd-stained gems underneath isn't really compelling, because they really shouldn't have to look past it. we're not just living in the age of $30 million budgets, we're living in the age when basically games are expected to be fun right away, not later after you've put in your time suffering through the stuff that is totally broken unless you have a certain amount of xp. obsidian doesn't have to give us PUSH BUTTON TO WIN GAME gameplay to get higher metacritic scores and/or sales, they just need to be able to deliver an experience that is compelling and entertaining on a visceral level too.

See this is how I feel about Assassin's Creed yet I get fucking chewed out every single time I try to make the argument.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: ackblom12 on 08 Jul 2010, 08:50
Assassin's Creed 1 pains me so much.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Ozymandias on 08 Jul 2010, 09:00
Assassin's Creed 1 is a mess.

However, it also was well hyped and therefore easily sold well enough to justify AC2 which was an absolute gem. Certainly, Obsidian can do better. Ideally, they should get a shot. Sales don't bear that out. Life sucks.

Also, I'm completely in favor of moving away from stats-based RPGs. Just saying. Arbitrary numbers indicating progress ain't really a thing I would mourn.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: ackblom12 on 08 Jul 2010, 09:36
I'm torn on how I feel about leaving stat based RPGs behind.

I like the idea and games like ME2 do it quite well, but I won't deny that I'm a big fan of tabletop games and I like having that spreadsheet aspect to the game that lets me do exactly what I want with my character, at exactly the pace I determine, with some sense of progression other than the game handing me new things via story and that being my only form of progression.

I'm pretty certain the OC tendencies in me would get over it at some point if it went away completely, but I'm always a little sad to see an entire branch of a genre go the way of the Dodo.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Ozymandias on 08 Jul 2010, 11:24
Stat-based RPGs aren't actually dying, John's just doomsaying because of Mass Effect's success. Fallout's still very stat based, all MMOs are still stat based, Dragon Age was stat based, they're still around.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Alex C on 08 Jul 2010, 11:43
I like stats when they serve an integral purpose in a well-thought out design as opposed to just being tacked onto some twitch game to give some half-baked sense of progression. Stats were no detriment to exploration & strategy oriented game play like that in Heroes of Might and Magic, for example. The crux of the gameplay was figuring out just how much you can probably handle at any given moment with the resources at hand, after all, and stats & roll based damage introduce both a degree of uncertainty while also serving as a decent indicator of just how tough your force really is. Deciding whether to wait a week for reinforcements or to try to taking those resources by force now was a legit game play decision given that your opponents were working under similar constraints. It was almost golf-like in the sense that you were playing the course. The problem is, most stat based games don't require decisions like that. Final Fantasy games, for example, are essentially on rails and you basically mash Fight until you get to the next cut scene. Basically, the numbers were there to tell when to cast Cure or to get you cock blocked by some dragon. And frankly, unless there was another, better way to approach the dragon that could be discovered through proper exploration, the latter is just a useless exercise in grinding rather than an opportunity for an interesting game play decision.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: ackblom12 on 08 Jul 2010, 12:35
Stat-based RPGs aren't actually dying, John's just doomsaying because of Mass Effect's success. Fallout's still very stat based, all MMOs are still stat based, Dragon Age was stat based, they're still around.

Well, Fallout 3 was stat bases kind sorta. The stats didn't matter much because you could max out practically everything at a ridiculously fast pace if you wanted to. It doesn't fill that niche for me because it's just so incredibly easy to be great at pretty much everything.

New Vegas I suspect may fix some of that with the added difficulty levels.

I also think that perhaps I should say that stat based solo games are a very different beast compared to stat based MMOs and could easily be categorized as a different branch of the genre.

Also I was referring more to your comment.

Also, I'm completely in favor of moving away from stats-based RPGs. Just saying. Arbitrary numbers indicating progress ain't really a thing I would mourn.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Alex C on 08 Jul 2010, 13:33
Fallout's still very stat based.

I don't really think of Fallout 3's hybrid status as being in any way a virtue. In fact, it was Bethesda games that first made me decide that the sort of hybrid bullshit people are trying isn't something I'm interested in playing.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 08 Jul 2010, 14:46
As I said, Bethsoft has more or less abandoned stat-based gameplay since Oblivion. The only example of your stats actually mattering were a handful of skill contexts (hacking / lockpick / persuasion) in Fallout 3. I don't think it's doomsaying to say that stat-based gameplay is going the way of the dinosaurs. Without turn-based time progression it doesn't have a home, and turn-based time progression is most definitely dead in mainstream RPGs. Actually having stats impact core gameplay in a real-time context, as they did in Alpha Protocol, makes people unhappy. So there are two options. Either you phase out stats more or less completely and replace them with choice of activated abilities and such, as Bioware has with ME2, or you make them meaningless, as Bethsoft has. I fully expect lots of people to be unhappy with the "unfair" penalties they'll be getting for trying to use things they have no skill with in New Vegas. It's going to happen.

As for DA, my sense was that it was Bioware's throwback to earlier times. I don't expect its systems to stay the same over time and they're not going to make them more complex.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Alex C on 08 Jul 2010, 16:40
To me, it's less about turn based and more about scope and strategy in general. As a rule, FPS games favor immersion, intimacy and immediacy over being able to practically consider the stats of all the units involved or even handle multiple characters in the first place. Further, since you typically control a primary character that character MUST be capable of progressing through the game on their own merits without being too frustrating. As I pointed out when discussing the original X-COM, it's OK if a slow poke rookie gets turned into chunky salsa by the alien menace as you try navigating a blind corner because well, you have more rookies. It feels like a kick to the teeth, but there's an entire management apparatus in place and meaningful decisions to be made that lead directly to how many you have and how well-equipped they are. While jokes about strategy games and re-loads are common, such things are often more about maintaining your pristine score or having a "completist" inventory/civ/whatever at the end of the game. Likewise in MMOs (or hell, even Team Fuckin' Fortress) you can have many people working together to mitigate the weaknesses of any one individual-- If you die, you get scrape yourself back up, grab some friends and go at it again. In a solo FPS-RPG hybrid, however, shit like Brayko is just going to plain piss people off if they went the "wrong" build, full stop, because your protagonist is pretty much your only true weapon. So characters end up being capable of trying everything, more or less, and if you can read the tea leaves and predict what the game is going to require from you, it's usually quite easy to just grab an uber build and slouch your way through the rest of the game. I don't know about the rest of you, but it's hard for me to feel any tension once everything just starts bouncing off my power armor, a phenomenon that kinda defeats the purpose of going first person and strongly identifying with a single character in the first place.

Personally, I think stat based gameplay will survive, but I expect it to exist mostly in the form of RTS derived games like League of Legends and DotA AllStars. Such games are committed to implementing stats in a meaningful way, an impulse that I think is mostly just plain misguided in solo FPS games. Bleh, sometimes I wish I was in the industry 'cuz I've been thinking about this kinda shit entirely too much for the better part of two decades now.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 10 Jul 2010, 01:06
ok the game's a lot better on the second playthrough. i think it's not even so much the gunplay that's broken as the stealth is broken and the gunplay is tied into the stealth in a real profound way and maybe that's why everything feels so off. the stealth is basically divided into two sections which are Are You Standing And Moving and Are You In An AI Character's Hard-To-Discern Field Of Vision and the cover is fairly lamentable so the gunplay is only as bad as it is by virtue of you needing it way more than you should.

but at the same time, the second time through you've probably got know-how for the mechanics and you've figured out workarounds and therefore even sneaking and shooting in the early levels is fun (see: parker's secret op in the beginning, in which i accidentally killed a marine with only my fists, which i only discovered because i read that i somehow created an orphan during the greybox intro mission)
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 10 Jul 2010, 01:08
so i'm now disappointed that there won't be a sequel where they could learn from their mistakes but with any luck we'll see traces of AP in future original IPs from obsidian, especially in terms of lessons learned
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Ozymandias on 13 Jul 2010, 15:43
but at the same time, the second time through you've probably got know-how for the mechanics and you've figured out workarounds and therefore even sneaking and shooting in the early levels is fun

See this, I think, is the inherent problem of the entire genre, which Alex already well stated: you can't derive full enjoyment until subsequent playthroughs. Your first playthrough of any such game, be it Fallout, Deus Ex, or Alpha Protocol, is going to be a mess because everything you do is guesswork which, in theory, should be fun and exciting, but in practice is just frustrating. With subsequent playthroughs, you understand the game and can therefore play with it, trying to squeeze out every possible avenue and bit of emergent narrative you can think of- which is neat but it's not hard to see why that can never make it in mainstream sales.

Which, I guess, "hurf durf modern gamers want fun handed to them on a silver platter" or something but I mean...I like fun? If I die in a game I want it to be because I failed as a player, not because of a random die roll or failure to anticipate the game's mechanics.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Alex C on 13 Jul 2010, 16:31
Well, actually, I am almost the other way around-- I kinda like figuring things out, but usually I end up with such a ridiculously powerful character that most of the challenge is immediately leeched away from the game-- I just slap the "I Win" button until I get to the dialog and interesting setpieces, which are really about the only true draw left to me in RPG games. In AP's case, I'd hit Chain Shot, Brilliance, and then Chain Shot again. In Fable 1, I ran around with Physical Shield and Summon so i had a maxed out experience multiplier pretty much at all times, got bored, and stopped playing. I suppose at its heart it's the same problem though--a game really shouldn't flit between "Trivially easy," and "Aggravating" depending on which "balanced" advancement options you choose. I just assume that there's always a way to brute force your way through things and work from there.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 13 Jul 2010, 16:38
I actually thought that Dragon Age was pretty well-made in that regard - the ice spell progression was pretty overpowered (at least before Bioware nerfed it to some degree) but even that still wasn't enough to make it a "win button". It was pretty challenging. It's too bad the world was so drab.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Alex C on 13 Jul 2010, 16:58
That's pretty true, particularly if you don't go with an all-in mage party or use goofy Force Field tricks. One of the other nice things about Dragon Age was that there were a few really nice tier 1 spells that could be plucked right away and make your Mage very viable even if you decided to mostly specialize in trees that were late bloomers or highly specialized. Heal is enough on its own to keep a mage from being a complete waste and Mind Blast is a great li'l escape trick if used right. If you have those you can build the character into pretty much whatever you want from that point on and be golden.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 13 Jul 2010, 17:12
but at the same time, the second time through you've probably got know-how for the mechanics and you've figured out workarounds and therefore even sneaking and shooting in the early levels is fun

See this, I think, is the inherent problem of the entire genre, which Alex already well stated: you can't derive full enjoyment until subsequent playthroughs. Your first playthrough of any such game, be it Fallout, Deus Ex, or Alpha Protocol, is going to be a mess because everything you do is guesswork which, in theory, should be fun and exciting, but in practice is just frustrating. With subsequent playthroughs, you understand the game and can therefore play with it, trying to squeeze out every possible avenue and bit of emergent narrative you can think of- which is neat but it's not hard to see why that can never make it in mainstream sales.

Which, I guess, "hurf durf modern gamers want fun handed to them on a silver platter" or something but I mean...I like fun? If I die in a game I want it to be because I failed as a player, not because of a random die roll or failure to anticipate the game's mechanics.

nah see it's not because i was frustrated and dying all the time, it's because i need a long-ass time to get used to the way the game operates. this isn't always a problem because some games get that feeling of the moment-to-moment operation of the game being fun.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Ozymandias on 13 Jul 2010, 18:02
Well, actually, I am almost the other way around-- I kinda like figuring things out, but usually I end up with such a ridiculously powerful character that most of the challenge is immediately leeched away from the game-- I just slap the "I Win" button until I get to the dialog and interesting setpieces, which are really about the only true draw left to me in RPG games. In AP's case, I'd hit Chain Shot, Brilliance, and then Chain Shot again. In Fable 1, I ran around with Physical Shield and Summon so i had a maxed out experience multiplier pretty much at all times, got bored, and stopped playing. I suppose at its heart it's the same problem though--a game really shouldn't flit between "Trivially easy," and "Aggravating" depending on which "balanced" advancement options you choose. I just assume that there's always a way to brute force your way through things and work from there.

There's also that which, again, the genre can become more fun on subsequent playthroughs through attempted at different variations of the narrative or even emergent narratives just from fucking around. You know how to break the game: now let's see how I can beat it in the most insane ways possible. A totally legitimate process and fun way to play but, again, an extremely niche way to play. All of this is a side effect of the core desire of American RPGs: to replicate the fun of a tabletop RPG, which is, in my opinion, nigh impossible because the GM is a living breathing person who is pretty much playing the game with you in a tabletop game. If you min-max, they can make the game harder and cleverer. If you like screwing around, they can screw around with you. If you didn't build right for their intended campaign, you can find ways together to still make it a fun, enjoyable experience. You can never ever ever do that in a video game.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Alex C on 13 Jul 2010, 19:18
That's true; speed runs are a well established practice, after all.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Ozymandias on 13 Jul 2010, 20:22
And low level runs and weird stats builds and melee-only runs and pacifist runs and etc etc etc
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 13 Jul 2010, 22:41
My first run of Alpha Protocol was a pacifist run. Because I'm just badass like that.

(It kind of made me want to kill myself at a few points though, not gonna lie)
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Ozymandias on 13 Jul 2010, 23:52
Of course sometimes games just make alternate playthroughs just too damn easy. Dead Space, man. First playthrough I decided "hey I'm gonna go ahead and do a cutter-only playthrough, so the other guns will be a treat for my second playthrough and the harder difficulties won't seem so hard". Man, using other guns makes the game harder. That plasma cutter isn't the coolest gun in the game but it is the goddamn best and that's silly.

Not that, you know, that's even remotely similar to the genre at hand, just saying. Fuck you Dead Space. If you weren't so awesome I'd hate you.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: David_Dovey on 14 Jul 2010, 02:20
Completely agree on Dead Space though. It actually ruined the game for me in a tangential way. I spent money I didn't have on weapons I didn't  want or need and ended up stuck at a difficult juncture with no cash to pick up extra health packs, and it got so frustrating that I haven't played since. I kept buying every new gun that became available, looking for something that would at least be a plausible alternative to the plasma cutter and just ended up wasting money that could've gone elsewhere.

EDIT: I'm fully willing to admit that it was mostly stupidity and lack of foresight on my part that got me into that situation but if someone could've just told me that the cutter was the only weapon in that game worth a damn then I could've been saved a lot of pain.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Josefbugman on 14 Jul 2010, 02:56
I really liked AP, and VTMB. I also liked ME an awful lot.

I just wish that sometimes the majority of gamers would stop buying a tonne of boring boring shooters. I've stopped caring how many different sorts of thing that shoots bullets/bees/lighting I can use to stop the aliens/terroists/Cthulu. I've started to find that I just prefer RPG's over shooting, and there just aren't enough of them that don't have annoying grindfests throughout.

I personally didn't have that many problems with the AI, sure on occasion they simply stopped in one place that I couldn't get past, but then its just a case of waiting for Shadow operative to reload and punching them in the throat. That and maybe a bit of hyperawareness, but all in all I've seen worse. I just really enjoyed this game and wish that there were more being made, but as is, it just costs too much to make games like this that aren't going to generate millions in sales. A shame really, but then again I still have these to play.

Also, Omen Deng is awesome to the nth degree.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 14 Jul 2010, 07:03
Of course sometimes games just make alternate playthroughs just too damn easy. Dead Space, man. First playthrough I decided "hey I'm gonna go ahead and do a cutter-only playthrough, so the other guns will be a treat for my second playthrough and the harder difficulties won't seem so hard". Man, using other guns makes the game harder. That plasma cutter isn't the coolest gun in the game but it is the goddamn best and that's silly.

Not that, you know, that's even remotely similar to the genre at hand, just saying. Fuck you Dead Space. If you weren't so awesome I'd hate you.
Actually a souped-up ripper is the best weapon.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 14 Jul 2010, 11:25
or a LINE GUN
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 14 Jul 2010, 11:25
only weapons not really worth it were assault rifle and flamethrower
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Alex C on 14 Jul 2010, 14:17
It bums me out how often flamethrowers suck in games. I don't care how impractical they are in real life, I wanna set everything on fire.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: David_Dovey on 14 Jul 2010, 21:55
The flamethrower in GTA is pretty sweet  :police:
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 14 Jul 2010, 22:55
Yeah the ripper, line gun, and especially the force gun are fucking boss once you properly upgrade them. I am personally of the opinion that playing the game with just the cutter is selling the game short.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: est on 17 Jul 2010, 21:18
I stopped playing it after the bit where you restart the engines because I couldn't deal with the controls.  They just felt wrong.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: est on 17 Jul 2010, 21:19
Also I won't be buying AP for the same reason I'm not buying ME2.  Its combat looks like ME1, ie: fucking awful.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 18 Jul 2010, 02:41
The feel of combat in AP feels slightly different from ME's, but the stealth approach provides a handy workaround of the tedium. ME2's combat feels very, very different.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Ozymandias on 18 Jul 2010, 09:10
Also I won't be buying AP for the same reason I'm not buying ME2.  Its combat looks like ME1, ie: fucking awful.

 :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :?

The combat in ME2 is one of the most praised improvements over ME1.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 18 Jul 2010, 09:50
yeah dude the whole game feels a lot more visceral and the cover system actually works and headshots make a difference &c.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Alex C on 18 Jul 2010, 12:32
It really is the little things. For example, weapon swapping makes loads more sense now since you don't need to sink points to be effective anymore, which was really a needed change for people bringing over a soldier. Changing my weapon load out ended up changing how I approached things a li'l bit too, which was nice. For example, I used the Eviscerator combat shotgun along with the basic sniper rifle for quite a while as my main weapons and usually fought at close range after sniping anyone with rocket launchers or flame throwers. But the sniper rifle's tiny ammo supply was a pain in the ass so after a while I just started using the Vindicator battle rifle pretty much exclusively, so all of a sudden I was a mid-to-long range fighter. Then I got the Viper, a semi-automatic 12 round sniper rifle so the Vindicator was shelved and scenario 1 reversed itself: I usually sniped but packed an Eviscerator as backup instead of vice versa. By end game I had maxed out tungsten rounds, heightened adrenaline rush and a Revenant+Viper combo that pretty much just murdered the hell out of everything really fast at whatever range things tried fighting me at.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: est on 18 Jul 2010, 14:50
Ok guys calm down, maybe I will try ME2 out?  But I remember someone/everyone here trying to tell me that the RE4 controls weren't horribly janky too and I maybe have some trust issues now.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Alex C on 18 Jul 2010, 19:38
Yeah, but that's Resident Evil. People have Stockholm syndrome when it comes that series. I've heard people praise the writing and actually mean it. ME2's game play is still far from perfect, but it's no reason to write off the series. Just rent the damned thing.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 18 Jul 2010, 22:20
also the combat in AP feels more like a third-person deus ex with slightly worse stealth mechanics
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: est on 19 Jul 2010, 05:44
Ok so I just played the ME2 demo.  The combat is a lot better, but the dialog is just as bad as the first one.  I mean, I got to the end of the first part and wanted to put a bullet through Miranda's head, because it's obvious she set the whole thing on their ship (and probably the SR1 and my death) up.  Then it fast-forwarded to the prison ship and I figured it was your standard betrayal scene, then I thought "oh ok, maybe not, that's refreshing" but them BAM, betrayal scene.  Then you get to the end of that and Jack freaks out when she sees the Normandy with a Cerberus decal on it but I guess I must have some mad effect on ladiezzz because she magically says ok in about two seconds.  I also don't appreciate that she is dressed as a spaced-up version of your stereotypical punk chick and calls Miranda a cheerleader.  Pretty heavy on the cheese.

So yeah, I don't know.  Maybe I'll wait until it isn't $60 AUD, maybe more like $20.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Ozymandias on 19 Jul 2010, 08:59
I mean, I got to the end of the first part and wanted to put a bullet through Miranda's head, because it's obvious she set the whole thing on their ship (and probably the SR1 and my death) up.

Nope.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Alex C on 19 Jul 2010, 15:52
Good try though.

Anyway, yeah, I dunno why they put in SZ as a demo mission, but then, she's one of my least favorite characters alongside Jacob and Grunt (I just find some of the stuff he yells in combat annoying/silly). Jacob+Male Shep trying to have a casual conversation is rough sledding, and I'm not terribly fond of Miranda either. Garrus and Mordin make up for a lot though. Most improved and best new addition respectively.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Ozymandias on 19 Jul 2010, 16:54
Yeah, Jack and Jacob are easily the worst characters in the game. I don't know which I dislike more. Jacob is boring, Jack is cliche. Jacob has the better loyalty quest, Jack is a better squadmate.

I have no idea why they would choose, of everything awesome in the game, to put Jack's recruit quest in there. Do freaking Archangel's. That one rocks.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Alex C on 19 Jul 2010, 18:33
Agreed, that would have been the best one, I think. Very Action oriented, decent variety of enemies, a couple villains you can chat with a bit before ever having to fight them, a few opportunities to use the new dialogue/cinematic interrupt system and I already gave my opinion of the NPC involved. Best recruit mission going. I'm afraid I have to give some grudging respect to Jacob as a squadmate though, at least vs Jack. He pairs just as well with Warp users and Barrier makes him really durable.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 20 Jul 2010, 03:14
alpha protocol chat: veteran mode rules
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 30 Jul 2010, 12:17
Sega released sales figures and in its first month AP sold about 700,000 copies worldwide, which is fairly respectable given the genre of the game and (especially) the tepid reviews, but not so good as a multi-platform title and certainly not so good as a franchise starter. Still a bit surprising. It will probably break a million at some point, but it won't do so early enough to be considered a success. By comparison, Jade Empire sold about 650,000 in the same time frame and JE Sawyer tells me this is considered a failure number. The official game of Iron Man 2 sold 1.2 million copies.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Storm Rider on 30 Jul 2010, 19:56
Honestly, 700k is a lot more than I expected. I thought it would have been lucky to hit the half-million mark. Of course that's definitely not going to recoup the 4 years of development costs, but all things considered it could be worse. I expect that eventually it will get the same kind of cult recognition that Troika's games have.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 01 Aug 2010, 11:54
what could their budget have possibly been for seven hundred thousand copies to not recoup it? like that's probably thirty million dollars in sales, at least.

i don't think the game needs a sequel but seven hundred thousand copies is like nowhere near the mark i expected it to sell, nor is it anything really approaching failure, rpg or not. pretty sure sega's full of shit.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: KvP on 25 Nov 2010, 03:22
On sale for $7.50 on Steam (http://store.steampowered.com/app/34010/). Buy it if you haven't already!
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Damnable Fiend on 25 Nov 2010, 22:28
I just bought that game for the full price the other day, too...

ugh

not that I begrudge Obsidian whatever money they get, I'm just kinda poor.
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 26 Nov 2010, 12:54
On sale for $7.50 on Steam (http://store.steampowered.com/app/34010/). Buy it if you haven't already!

attention, thread lurkers: are you reading this thread? have you played alpha protocol yet? you haven't? and you're hesitating on this deal? are you retarded?
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Tom on 26 Nov 2010, 13:35
It's a North America only deal  :x
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Johnny C on 26 Nov 2010, 13:50
so that's a yes  :evil:
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: cyro on 27 Nov 2010, 08:46
I did a sorta review post on another forum for AP when it was released. I'm gonna assume you don't want me to go TL;DR on your faces so;

Link for if you care. (http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/alpha-protocol-118/pleasantly-surprised-117658.html#post1081950)
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: Damnable Fiend on 27 Nov 2010, 15:44
your link is a bit messed up (I figured out what you did wrong, but you might want to fix that)
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: JD on 27 Nov 2010, 17:42
links go like this fyi

Code: [Select]
[url=google.com]buttz[/url]
so it will look like this

buttz (http://google.com)
Title: Re: Alpha Protocol photo depository thread
Post by: cyro on 28 Nov 2010, 03:00
Oh.

 :psyduck:

Fixed. Thanks.