Jeph Jacques's comics discussion forums

Fun Stuff => ENJOY => Topic started by: Scandanavian War Machine on 08 Dec 2008, 16:17

Title: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Scandanavian War Machine on 08 Dec 2008, 16:17
okay, guys i need your mighty wisdom to recommend unto me something good to read. i have been slowly reading a long book about physics for the last couple of weeks, and i'm almost done with it so i've decided that i need a change of pace for my next reading adventure.

so i thought to myself "hey, i haven't read a comic book for almost ten years. that could be fun."

now i need you to recommend some good comics/graphic novels/whatever to me. something that i'd be able to pick up at the local bookstore (hopefully. though if their selection sucks i guess i could resort to Amazon). i was thinking maybe Watchmen or The Killing Joke (i haven't read either) but those are just the first two that came to mind.

so, friends, what are some of your favorites and why should i read them? thanks in advance for the help.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Blue Kitty on 08 Dec 2008, 16:24
Invincible:  Good old fashioned teen super hero comic, right now you can find like 8 volumes of it.

Walking Dead:  Best damn zombie comic out there

Fables:  Fantastic story about fairy tale people having to live in the real world

Hellboy:  It's Hellboy, the name pretty much says everything you need to know.  Don't know why, but I love Mignola's art style.

The Goon:  20's gangster comedy
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Scandanavian War Machine on 08 Dec 2008, 16:31
damn Walking Dead looks sweet.

unfortunately, i'm looking for something that's more of a one-off that i don't have to buy multiple books to get the whole story. maybe i should have been more specific.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Blue Kitty on 08 Dec 2008, 16:32
Yeah, that pretty much kills all of mine.

Though, Hellboy and the Goon are a little non-sequential, but to get the full thing you'll need to buy multiple books.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Spluff on 08 Dec 2008, 16:38
Watchmen is pretty fantastic, but it is quite deep. It's not your usual comic book fare.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Usopp on 08 Dec 2008, 16:51
Watchmen
V for Vendetta
Sandman(volumes, unfortunately)
The Lorax(hey, don't knock it, alright?)

for graphic novels, I'm gonna recommend you a few really good manga.
One Piece(really really freakin' long tho, very good if you've got the time)
Ode to Kirihito
Bitter Virgin(very short, just 4 volumes)

One Piece and Bitter Virgin can be found at http://www.onemanga.com/
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Scandanavian War Machine on 08 Dec 2008, 17:05
sweet. thanks for suggestions, everybody! i'm gonna go to the bookstore when i get off work and see what their selection is like. i'll let you know what i end up deciding on.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: De_El on 08 Dec 2008, 17:15
Batman one-offs limited series reprint collections that can be appreciated on their own: The Dark Knight Returns (do not waste your time on the shitty sequel), Batman Year One, Batman: The Long Halloween, Batman: Dark Victory, Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth (this is a true one-shot and only kind of a Batman comic), Batman: Broken City

The quality of Watchmen is unquestionable. Do it. V for Vendetta is really good as well.

Kingdom Come is basically the only major event DC comics collection that worked. Fuck Final Infinite Crisis on Infinite Earths and all that shit.  

Pride of Baghdad is a good one-shot by the writer from Ex Machina and Y: The Last Man

Black Hole, Blankets, and Persepolis are good non-major comics publisher-type comics.  Blankets and Perepolis are both memoirs, and Black Hole is an almost sci-fi about sti's.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Joseph on 08 Dec 2008, 17:18
My favourite comics which can be read with just one purchase:

From Hell (http://www.amazon.com/Hell-Alan-Moore/dp/0958578346/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228783311&sr=8-1) by Alan Moore - Alan Moore's harrowing and intelligent take upon Jack The Ripper.  Beautifully and evocatively told, it is a tome of a book which takes a long time to get through, but never stops being exciting and engaging.  It is remarkably well researched, but that doesn't stop it from going down bizzare and conspiracy laden paths.  Even the appendix is a great read.

David Boring (http://www.amazon.com/David-Boring-Daniel-Clowes/dp/0375714529/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228783461&sr=1-1) by Daniel Clowes - Don't read this if you can't handle somewhat depressing stories.  A really well told tale about a young man looking for some sort of meaning in the city he lives in.  It takes a strange twist in the second half, becoming even more captivating, though certainly no less sad.

The Arrival (http://www.amazon.com/Arrival-Shaun-Tan/dp/0439895294/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228783739&sr=1-1) by Shaun Tan - No words in this one.  Just incredible hand-drawn pictures laid out to tell the story of a man arriving in a strange county, full of unfamiliar sites and peoples.  Find a copy and flip through it.  Breathtakingly beautiful.

Maus (http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Maus-Survivors-Tale-No/dp/0679406417/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228783756&sr=1-1) by Art Speigelman - One of the most famous alternative graphic novels, it's a haunting and inventive look at the holocaust.  Full of humour and fun, despite the often bleak subject matter.  It won the Pulitzer Prize, once upon a time.

Zot! (http://www.amazon.com/Zot-Complete-Black-Collection-1987-1991/dp/0061537276/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228783903&sr=1-1) by Scott McCloud - This collects all the stories from this 80's comic book.  It's a really fun mix of manga and superhero storytelling, which often stops to look at the more down-to-earth aspects of the characters, placing a large focus on their everyday lives, and not just the adventures.

Understanding Comics (http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Comics-Invisible-Scott-McCloud/dp/006097625X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228784036&sr=1-1) by Scott McCloud - A fun and intelligent take on what makes comics exciting, and why they're worth reading.  Told as a comic, it's incredibly engaging.  By the same author as Zot! above

Jimmy Corrigan: The Smartest Kid On Earth (http://www.amazon.com/Jimmy-Corrigan-Smartest-Kid-Earth/dp/0224063979/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228784145&sr=1-1) by Chris Ware - Chris Ware is undoubtedly a genius, and this large and intricate book makes that really clear.  Not light reading, this one will mess with your head.  Really depressing at times, but hard to put down.  As close to something like Ulysses as comics has yet produced.

Fun Home (http://www.amazon.com/Fun-Home-Family-Tragicomic-001/dp/0618871713/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228784243&sr=1-1) by Alison Bechdel - A remarkable coming of age tale, full of literary references and moving passages.  My absolute favourite example of comics as a memoir.  It's an enchanting story of a girl growing up, discovering her sexuality, and learning her family's secrets.  My mother even liked this, and she can't stand most comics, unless they're Calvin and Hobbes.

Louis Riel (http://www.amazon.com/Louis-Riel-Comic-Strip-Chester-Brown/dp/1894937899/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228784398&sr=1-1) by Chester Brown - A historical comic about a famous Canadian rebel and his attempts to fight the Canadian government.  Well researched and told, it's exciting, and even somewhat educational.

Persepolis (http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Persepolis-Marjane-Satrapi/dp/0375714839/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228784599&sr=1-2) by Marjane Satrapi - Another memoir/coming of age story, this one about a girl growing up in Iran.  Passionate and moving, it was turned into an excellent movie last year.

If you feel like something with multiple collections, Neil Gaiman's The Sandman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sandman_(Vertigo)) is great, and easy to jump into.  The Hernandez brothers' Love and Rockets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_and_Rockets_(comics)) is also available in collected format and is a great read.

If you want comic strip collections, any book of George Herriman's Krazy Kat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krazy_Kat) will make for excellent reading.

Alan Moore's Watchmen and V for Vendetta are seen as classics these days, and are both good reads.  I haven't read The Killing Joke, but if you were to get it, try to find it in DC Universe: The Stories of Alan Moore (http://www.amazon.com/DC-Universe-Stories-Alan-Moore/dp/1401209270/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228785148&sr=8-1), where it will also include lots of other stories, for the same price.

I've also really enjoyed Frank Miller's take on Batman, in The Dark Knight Returns (http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Knight-Returns-Frank-Miller/dp/1563893428/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228785218&sr=1-2) and even in The Dark Knight Strikes Again (http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Dark-Knight-Strikes-Again/dp/1563899299/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228785255&sr=1-4), butI haven't found myself to enjoy any of his other work, though I haven't read Batman: Year One.

If you ever do feel like buying some comics from the newstands, I highly recommend Captain America and Thor, both of which are easy to jump in to with just one or two trade paperbacks of recent issues, and are being excellently written.  Kevin Smith has also started writting a three issue Batman story, Batman: Cacophony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_Cacophony), which looks to be fairly good, based off the first issue.

Oh!  And you should check out just about anything by Will Eisner!
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Scandanavian War Machine on 08 Dec 2008, 17:27
wow that was very informative, thanks a bunch!
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: J-cob9000 on 08 Dec 2008, 17:35
I was about to start this thread. How coincidental.

Recently I bought V For Vendetta and The Killing Joke. I loved the Killing Joke although it wasn't as long I had expected. V For Vendetta,  I have already read it once. I pirated it and read it and then bought it.
I looked at your recommendations and also added them to my wishlist. I'll keep checking this thread.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Uber Ritter on 08 Dec 2008, 18:47
I'd recommend the trades of Top Ten, which is Allan Moore but is a good deal lighter than Watchman, and in some ways more enjoyable (ie here his brilliant characterization and writing shine without being burdened by so much bleakness).

Queen and Country is a great series about British secret agent Tara Chace.  Sure, the adventures of a rather attractive female super-spy don't sound like the makings of great literature or even anything approaching good, but Queen and Country pulls it off beautifully.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Dazed on 08 Dec 2008, 19:13
Watchmen, without a doubt.

If you do decide to go on a volume buying binge, get Sandman. In fact, fuck it, just buy it anyway, it's utterly amazing.

I've just started Fables, through vol 2 so far, enjoying it a great deal. Walking Dead was good up through vol 3, havent gotten any further.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Professor Snuggles on 08 Dec 2008, 19:15
Top 10 is great, two volumes, plus a mini series and an OGN. The OGN is fucking amazing.

Also, and I can't recommend these two enough, Demo, by brian wood and Scott Pilgrim, by Brian Lee O'malley. Demo is a collection of single issue stories dealing with issues of power and young people, that starts out about super powers and then just becomes like the best comic ever. Scott Pilgrim, in 4 volumes so far, with 3 more to come, is the story of a young dude trying to make good while dating an american delivery girl ninja. He has to fight her 7 evil exes, get a job, get an apartment, get the girl, and get shows for his band. Brilliant, funny, touching, and it pisses all over the fourth wall.


Other than those, this thread has good recs.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Blue Kitty on 08 Dec 2008, 19:49
With De El recommending Kingdom Come, you should also get Marvels.  it has the same amazing artist and chronicles most of Marvel's history from the perspective of an every day reporter.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: tuna ketchup x on 08 Dec 2008, 19:55
Anything by Daniel Clowes (but especially Like a Velvet Glove Cast in Iron, that thing gave me nightmares)

Love and Rockets by Los Bros Hernandez (magically realistic Latin American punk rock stories, awesome black and white work)

Anything by James Kochalka (you can read his daily comic journal for free at americanelf.com, and yes that's where my icon comes from)

I'm not so much a fan of superhero stuff. The Goon is funny, though.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: JD on 08 Dec 2008, 20:00
Bone! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_(comic) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_(comic))

Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: CamusCanDo on 08 Dec 2008, 21:21
Shit guys, I got back home half an hour ago from a big spend up at Borders where I spent $600 on books and graphic novels. I got a bunch of Will Eisner, some Sandman spin-offs and a couple of anthologies. So I'm actually looking at my pile now and thinking that most of what I have is what you're asking for.

Flight - A series of anthologies, each with about 20 short stories written and illustrated by various people. With 5 books in total you can pick up any volume, read away and you're guaranteed to read something you'll enjoy.

The Contract With God Trilogy - Will Eisner. This series consists of A Contract With God, A Life Force, Dropsie Avenue. Will Eisner pretty much made grapgic novels into an acceptable form of reading material, and these are the books that did it.

New York: Life in the Big City - Will Eisner. These collections (New York, The Building, City People Notebook, Invisible People) each deal with different inhabitants of New York. I wish I could tell you more but I basically bought them on the recommendation on a friend who's opinion I take highly.

Since you guys are recommending all things Alan Moore don't forget The Ballad of Halo Jones. Also anything from his Americas Best Comics line. Goddamn.

Right. Back to small collected semi easy to find graphic novels!

Planetary - Warren Ellis. Is 4 volumes too much? If so, you're really missing out man. A team of archaeologists of things weird, and not always from Earth, try to uncover why a group of people have been hoarding these discoveries for themselves and not propelling the world into a fantastic future. I love this series so much.

Blankets - Craig Thompson. The most sweet and brutually sincere graphic novel, sometimes a little overly so. This is a definite must.

Fell - Warren Ellis. Another Warren Ellis graphic novel, also illustrated by Ben Templesmith. Richard Fell, a detective, is relocated across the bridge to Snowtown where he tries hard to uphold what little justice that's left.

The Umbrella Academy - Written by Gerad Way and illustrated by Gabriel Ba. So yeah, the lead singer from My Chemical Romance wrote a comic. And it is really really really good. I was all set to hate the shit out of this, because I am shallow like that. Seven orphans all born at the exact same time taken in by an alien posing as a humanDr for what other reason than to save the world? Yes, yes indeed.

Locke & Key - Written by Joe Hill and illustrated by Gabriel Rodriguez. Joe Hill is the son of Stephen King, let's get that out in the open, first of all. So like his father he writes horror. I was impressed by his debut novel released last year, Heart Shaped Box, and with Locke & Key getting so much high praises I thought I had better check this 6 comic mini series out, right quick. I'm glad I did because it is great and one of the few comics where it has actually creeped me out.

That's all I can think of, other than what everyone else has recommended (Bone, Scott Pilgrim, Demo, Alan Moore-ness, The Arrival, Maus, Dan Clowes, Scott McCl-fuck basically everything Dark Flame said) I'll throw some longish series at you that if you ever change your mind about multi volume works, you should definitely look at.

The Authority
Transmetropolitan
Y: The Last Man
Ex Machina
DMZ
The Invisibles
The Boys
Preacher
Books of Magic
Lucifer
Powers
100 Bullets
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Joseph on 08 Dec 2008, 22:02
Completely forgot about Warren Ellis.  Transmetropolitan is a favourite of mine, and he's written some other great things as well.  He's also currently doing Astonishing X-Men, which a lot of people seem to hate, but I love.

100 Bullets I've had a lot of trouble getting in to.  Granted, I've only read the first trade, but I found the quality was really mixed throughout, and none of the stories really got me excited.  Maybe it gets better?
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: michaelicious on 08 Dec 2008, 22:58
Blankets - Craig Thompson. The most sweet and brutually sincere graphic novel, sometimes a little overly so. This is a definite must.

This is what I was going to suggest! I love his drawing so much.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Gridgm on 09 Dec 2008, 04:40
Completely forgot about Warren Ellis.  Transmetropolitan is a favourite of mine, and he's written some other great things as well.  He's also currently doing Astonishing X-Men, which a lot of people seem to hate, but I love.

100 Bullets I've had a lot of trouble getting in to.  Granted, I've only read the first trade, but I found the quality was really mixed throughout, and none of the stories really got me excited.  Maybe it gets better?

100 bullets has the same story line for every issue for the first two trades or so, the only really important one being when someone starts questioning the "untraceable" bullets, from there the series starts developing a more over arcing plot which is really addicitve

my current personal list is
astonishing x men - for joss whedon's run the first two arcs are excellent the second two not so much, warren ellis has managed in each issue so far (3) to do an absolutly gold line which are a reason enough to keep reading (see listed)

armor (on wolverine teasing her about her name)
"he says if my name's "armor" then his name is "claws" and ms. frosts name is "brain" and ms. rogue's name is "suck"

(armor throwing wolverine to a ship above them)
"storm was right you are heavy"
"adamantium skeleton"
"not the beer?"

(scott swears at agent brand(beasts girlfriend))
agent brand: did you just say "****" to me?
beast: scott you jsut said "****ing" to my...um
beast: actually what are you? "girlfriend" doesn't sound quite right
agent brand: "xenophiliac experementation partner"?
beast: scott, you jsut said "****ing" to my girlfriend

batman (at least while grant morrison is writing)...it has batman running around the city beating up bad guys while on lsd in an attempt to beat someone mind controlling him

fables (although the war arc was a real let down compared to the rest of the series...(somethign about it being narated instead of followed if that description works) but definatly read up to issue 50

jack of fables: a spin off of the above series but no where near as serious

powers: if you can handle the sporadic release schedule it's an excellent series the first few issues are avaliable for free here (http://comics.newsarama.com/powers/) it focuses on a detective in the "powers" division of the police force

runaways: once again a sporadic release schedule but excellent series
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: rynne on 09 Dec 2008, 05:13
Pretty much anything by Alan Moore.  People have already correctly cited Watchmen, From Hell and V for Vendetta, but if you're in the mood for lighter fare his America's Best comics are great too.  Plus, they're limited-run comics so the entire series are usually just a few trade paperbacks long.

You probably know The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen from the terrible movie adaptation.  Rest assured that the comic is much smarter and much better.  And Mina Murray isn't a damn vampire.  [3 trade paperbacks: Vol. 1 and Vol. 2 are self-contained stories, the third book, The Black Dossier, is a collection of shorter tales.]

Top Ten is a Moore's homage to police procedurals, imagined in a city where every cop, criminal and average citizen has superpowers.  The whole thing is chock-full of background gags playing off all kinds of superhero comics.  Its spin-off Smax pulls the same trick for the fantasy/sword-and-sorcery genre.  [3 trade paperbacks: Top Ten Vols. 1 & 2 are a single long story line, Smax is a one self-contained TPB. There's a prequel book, Top Ten: Forty-Niners but I haven't read that to give suggestions.]


... or if you like the idea of Alice (Alice in Wonderland), Wendy (Peter Pan) and Dorothy (The Wizard of Oz) having explicit hard-core sex with each other and everyone else, there's always Lost Girls, written by Moore and illustrated by Moore's wife.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: 0bsessions on 09 Dec 2008, 06:40
batman (at least while grant morrison is writing)...it has batman running around the city beating up bad guys while on lsd in an attempt to beat someone mind controlling him

I cannot disagree with this enough. I have read some great Batman and some terrible Batman in my day and Morrison's run has been the epitome of mediocre and impenetrable. R.I.P. was the most egregious offender of the "Batman plans ahead for everything and you simply cannot beat him because he was twenty steps ahead of you before you even decided on your lunch on June 24, 1987" fiasco I have ever seen. His run has been a mess of less than amusing or poignant super hero pastiches, villains bordering on parody, over-the-top and nonsensical reveals that turned out either untrue, never went anywhere or outright never got resolved (Such as the revelation that the villain of the last arc may or may not have been a prominent figure from Bruce Wayne's past and Alfred may or may not have been a sexual deviant who did heroin) and the world's most terrible deus ex machina situations (Such as having a foolproof contingency plan in place should someone brainwash you, drive you insane and leave you homeless).

Grant Morrison is probably the most overrated writer in comic book history.

Runaways is a solid recommendation, though. At the least, the first two volumes by Brian K. Vaughn (The same guy who did Y: The Last Man and Deus Ex Machine) were pure gold. Pick up anything with his name on it. Joss Whedon's run on the title is largely ignorable. He added a cast member, but his run was largely uneventful and poorly executed. The jury's still out on Terry Moore's current take on it, but it's failing to reach BKV levels by any stretch.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: 0bsessions on 09 Dec 2008, 07:13
Sounds to me like you're reading the Terry Moore incarnation of Runaways, Jens. Does it look something like this?

(http://images.nextnewnetworks.com/10322_blog.jpg)

If so, trust me, the BKV incarnation is a significant step up. The book has been downhill since he left.

I'm also not saying Morrison has never written anything good or great. I've read some quality Grant Morrison. That said, he's also written a whole fuckton of absolute shit, such as his Batman and X-Men runs. He's had some quality stuff, but he's a vastly overrated dime store Warren Ellis.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: 0bsessions on 09 Dec 2008, 07:20
Okay, you just have terrible taste in comics, then. Sorry, Jens.

For the record, folks, the covers are not done by the same penciler as the interiors.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Dazed on 09 Dec 2008, 07:27
Oh, also, if you're looking for a quick, single-serving read, there's a graphic novelization of Neverwhere that was decent. They changed a couple plot points, but I liked the art and how they envisioned London Below.

http://www.amazon.com/Neil-Gaimans-Neverwhere-Mike-Carey/dp/1401210074/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228836328&sr=8-2 (http://www.amazon.com/Neil-Gaimans-Neverwhere-Mike-Carey/dp/1401210074/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228836328&sr=8-2)

Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Gilead on 09 Dec 2008, 07:27
Read David B.'s Epileptic. Don't question me, just do it. To get you turgid here's a scan of some of the ridiculously gorgeous art in the book.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b171/CatFishEnFuego/epileptic.jpg)
edit: This goes for the rest of you as well.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Usopp on 09 Dec 2008, 07:31
Quote
Read David B.'s Epileptic. Don't question me, just do it. To get you turgid here's a scan of some of the ridiculously gorgeous art in the book.

Dude, I saw you post this in the Discuss threads, but I'm not sure if it's available at your conventional book stores, should I just order it online?
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: rynne on 09 Dec 2008, 07:37
Morrison's We3 is a decent and very short read, though the last page or so felt a bit deus ex machina for my tastes.  It's about errant animals who've been turned into cyborg war machines---think Homeward Bound with machine guns.

(http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/We3%203.JPG)
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Gilead on 09 Dec 2008, 07:40
Quote
Read David B.'s Epileptic. Don't question me, just do it. To get you turgid here's a scan of some of the ridiculously gorgeous art in the book.

Dude, I saw you post this in the Discuss threads, but I'm not sure if it's available at your conventional book stores, should I just order it online?
I've seen the occasional copy in bookstores with good graphic novel sections (kinokuniya in sydney is where I got my original copy), but your best bet is probably to order it online.

Amazon appears to have it for 12 dollars.

http://www.amazon.com/Epileptic-David-B/dp/0375714685/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228837048&sr=8-1
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Usopp on 09 Dec 2008, 10:05
Awesome, kthx
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Scandanavian War Machine on 09 Dec 2008, 10:14
okay, so i ended up getting Watchmen because they didn't have much else that was very interesting at Borders when i went in yesterday. i'm about a third of the way through it already (couldn't put it down last night) and it's pretty spectacular already. it's made me very nostalgic for the days when i actually read comics and i think that, coupled with all the suggestions in this thread, will see me reading alot more comics in the coming weeks (i have two weeks off work for the holidays, so i've got lots of free time).
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Blue Kitty on 09 Dec 2008, 17:32
I've gotta go with Jon on this, Morrison's run on Batman was complete and utter shit.  I was starting to think that he has some odd hard on for the Silver Age like Alex Ross does for the Golden.

Also, Vaughn's run on Runways was ungodly awesome, and WE3 made me cry
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: carrotosaurus on 09 Dec 2008, 17:57
I know the new Marvel stuff is generally meh, but after reading it today, I have to say that Nova vol. 1 - Annihilation Conquest is really great.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Joseph on 09 Dec 2008, 20:02
Generally meh?  Maybe this is true for a lot of titles, but I have to say, I've found Captain America, Thor, Daredevil, Astonishing X-Men, and Wolverine to be quite excellent recently.  I've also heard really good things about Nova and Guardians Of The Galaxy.  And Spider-Man, though it's been mixed fair, has picked it up during the last couple months (they silly Flash Thompson war issue being an exception).
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: tomselleck69 on 09 Dec 2008, 21:30
Local, by Brian Wood and Ryan Kelly. In which a girl has emotions in a bunch of places.

I've had a tough time enjoying comics lately, but found Local to be the bees knees.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Blue Kitty on 09 Dec 2008, 21:43
I might get some guff for this, but I generally enjoy the Minx (http://www.dccomics.com/minx/) line of books from DC.  Sure, it's aimed at teenage girls, but I love the stories, they're separate from each other, and the people involved have put out some awesome stuff, like Brain Wood and Ross Campbell.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Uber Ritter on 09 Dec 2008, 22:12
Pretty much anything by Alan Moore.  People have already correctly cited Watchmen, From Hell and V for Vendetta, but if you're in the mood for lighter fare his America's Best comics are great too.  Plus, they're limited-run comics so the entire series are usually just a few trade paperbacks long.

Top Ten is a Moore's homage to police procedurals, imagined in a city where every cop, criminal and average citizen has superpowers.  The whole thing is chock-full of background gags playing off all kinds of superhero comics.  Its spin-off Smax pulls the same trick for the fantasy/sword-and-sorcery genre.  [3 trade paperbacks: Top Ten Vols. 1 & 2 are a single long story line, Smax is a one self-contained TPB. There's a prequel book, Top Ten: Forty-Niners but I haven't read that to give  suggestions.



The '49ers is quite good.  Not as good as the two trades, but quite good.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: KibBen on 10 Dec 2008, 03:31
I third the Bone reccomendation. I'm addicted to it. But I refuse to buy the shitty all-volumes-in-one-poorly-bound-book edition. I'm buying the nice, crisp, full coulour ones, one book at a time. It's so hard to not go apeshit and buy all of them at once, but it's better this way. The anticipation, the excitement... And they're SO much better in colour.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: 0bsessions on 10 Dec 2008, 07:17
(they silly Flash Thompson war issue being an exception).

Did you actually read the issue? It was one of the top reviewed single issues of the last year's worth of Spider-Man.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: rynne on 10 Dec 2008, 09:10
The '49ers is quite good.  Not as good as the two trades, but quite good.

Thanks, Iíll add it to my must-read list.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Joseph on 10 Dec 2008, 10:01
(they silly Flash Thompson war issue being an exception).

Did you actually read the issue? It was one of the top reviewed single issues of the last year's worth of Spider-Man.

Yep, and I don't understand where these reviews have been coming from.  It's overly sentimental, it interupted the flow of the series, and it does a lot to legitimize war, playing with some fairly bad stereotypes.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: 0bsessions on 10 Dec 2008, 10:26
How in the world does a decades old character being maimed legitimize war? Reading that, all I could was "Fuck, I am sure glad I never enlisted."

I've read overly sentimental comic books and that was far from overly sentimental. It was a pretty damn good balance and coming right after NWTD was a perfect spot for it, especially with the almost weekly scheduling, where it didn't interrupt anything.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Puki on 10 Dec 2008, 15:38
Hm...not everything short, but my recomendations are:
Preacher, Walking Dead, Fables, Invincible, Bone.
I will now stop writing because I will get to the point of not stopping.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Chesire Cat on 10 Dec 2008, 18:56
With De El recommending Kingdom Come, you should also get Marvels.  it has the same amazing artist and chronicles most of Marvel's history from the perspective of an every day reporter.


Marvels and Astro City are the two best graphic novels I have experienced.  Quite simply, at his best Kurt Busiek is the best writer in comics ever.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: CamusCanDo on 10 Dec 2008, 21:43
Shadow Hill is one of my favourite cities/towns in a comic universe.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Professor Snuggles on 11 Dec 2008, 07:10
The '49ers is quite good.  Not as good as the two trades, but quite good.

Thanks, Iíll add it to my must-read list.

It's actually a little better, I think, but only if you've already read the other two trades. Dunno how it stands on its own.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Scandanavian War Machine on 11 Dec 2008, 16:15
i'm almost done with Watchmen (fantastic) and i got The Killing Joke yesterday. not only that but i finally signed up for Amazon.com so i'll probably order some of the more obscure things you guys recommended.

the next couple of weeks are going to be pretty great (two weeks off work + comics = sweeet).
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Blue Kitty on 11 Dec 2008, 16:46
I thought the '49ers one stood quite well on it's own since I read it first.  I was surprised to see him again in Top 10.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: De_El on 12 Dec 2008, 06:47
Really? I tried to read the first issue but the dude was such a dick I had a hard time enjoying it. I suppose it deserves a second chance.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Dennisdread on 12 Dec 2008, 09:49
Nexus Archives.

But...there are volumes.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Joseph on 12 Dec 2008, 13:26
How in the world does a decades old character being maimed legitimize war? Reading that, all I could was "Fuck, I am sure glad I never enlisted."

I've read overly sentimental comic books and that was far from overly sentimental. It was a pretty damn good balance and coming right after NWTD was a perfect spot for it, especially with the almost weekly scheduling, where it didn't interrupt anything.

The last minute revelation about his physical state was obviously designed for a shock emotional reaction, something which adds in to overly sentimental for me.  My copy of this issue is across the country from me at the moment, so I can't really articulate my thoughts on it too well, but I just really didn't enjoy it as I read it.  I found NWTD and all of the following issues to be much more interesting.  Well, the Hammerhead story had some absolutely hideous writing for the gangsters, but Hammerhead came across well.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: De_El on 12 Dec 2008, 23:06
words

Yeah but the difference is that when I tried to read Scalped it left kind of a bad taste in my mouth and I didn't really care what happened to any of the characters.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Tom on 13 Dec 2008, 03:08
Anyone read Emperor Vulcan? I really can't wait to get a chance to read the War of Kings storyline.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: 0bsessions on 13 Dec 2008, 06:46
I read it Tom. It was better than I expected and definitely a step up from Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar Empire and Deadly Genesis.

If you plan on checking out War of Kings, keep an eye out for Kingbreaker, which starts Wednesday. You might also want to catch up on Annihilation, Annihilation: Conquest and Secret Invasion: Inhumans, all of which lead up to War of Kings in their own way (Particularly SI: Inhumans).
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: LucyStag on 13 Dec 2008, 20:03
I loooove Guy Delisle's works -- especially "Pyongyang". They're all about his travels in scary, repressive countries. They're full of humor, and the drawings are small and cartoony. Totally not someon people's style for comics they like, but I love em. Taught me some scarys tuff about North Korea. The Burma one is really good, too. Haven't yet read the China one.

I also always reccomend Tintin books, in spite of some awkward racism.

"Dogs and Water", from Drawn and Quarterly was really good and really kind of freaked me out. It's about some kid traveling all alone with his teddy bear through some war zone, and he meets wild dogs. It's great, and I am not sure I can handle reading it again.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Tom on 14 Dec 2008, 05:32
I got the vast majority as scans from a freind of mine.

Whedon's Buffy, Angel and Firefly comics are pretty good and it's great to see that such fantastic shows can still have a life after TV. Now, if only Veronica Mars, Deadwood and Carnivale comics could get published.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: lprkn on 14 Dec 2008, 16:42
Doom 2099
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: carrotosaurus on 14 Dec 2008, 19:13
Doom 2099 was fantastic. What will it take to bring back the 2099 universe?
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Blue Kitty on 14 Dec 2008, 19:17
Anyone read Emperor Vulcan? I really can't wait to get a chance to read the War of Kings storyline.

With an image like this, how can you not be excited?

(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/715/warofkingsna7.jpg)
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Chesire Cat on 14 Dec 2008, 19:20
Kree vs The Inhumans?  Fucking awesome!
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: 0bsessions on 14 Dec 2008, 21:00
Actually, it's more Inhumans/Kree versus Shi'ar as far as the way the plots are leading thus far.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Chesire Cat on 14 Dec 2008, 21:18
Wowowo, so War of Kings is currently ongoing?  And I have read Secret Invasion already, but Annihilation: Conquest is recommended as well?
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Surgoshan on 14 Dec 2008, 21:31
Anyone read Emperor Vulcan? I really can't wait to get a chance to read the War of Kings storyline.

With an image like this, how can you not be excited?

...  Wow.  Explosions.  AND titties.  I cannot help but love it.  My excitement level knows no bounds.  The fact there there is some hip and thigh makes it all the more adult, titillating, and awesome.  To the max.  I think I may have to invent a new level of fantastic.  Like whoa.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Tom on 14 Dec 2008, 21:34
.
Wowowo, so War of Kings is currently ongoing?  And I have read Secret Invasion already, but Annihilation: Conquest is recommended as well?
I've got the scans of it on my computer but like all the comics I got before the end of term, I haven't read it yet. Initially, Gabriel Summers whole I'm-your-long-lost-brother-thing didn't sit well with me but I got over it, that and Alex is fast becomming my favourite Summers.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Chesire Cat on 14 Dec 2008, 21:41
When you say 'scans' do you mean .cbr files?  Anyway I have the whole series sitting around for me to read.  But if War of Kings is done and I can read it all at once.  It would be awesome.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Tom on 15 Dec 2008, 00:20
It finishes in February with the 3rd issue of X-Men: Kingbreaker.

Has R.I.P. fisished yet?
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: 0bsessions on 15 Dec 2008, 06:53
War of Kings has NOT started yet, seeds have been planted.

And in terms of Secret Invasion, I meant the Secret Invasion: Inhumans mini-series, not Secret Invasion proper. Secret Invasion itself is pretty much completely unnecessary in terms of understanding War of Kings. The specific lead-ins, as cited by Marvel, are as follows:

Secret Invasion: Inhumans (Which just wrapped up and deals with the Inhumans' lead-up to the mini)

X-Men: Kingbreaker (Which starts Wednesday and deals with Vulcan, the Shi'ar Empire and the Starjammers)

The current arc of Nova, starting with issue #19 (Dealing with Nova and Darkhawk's involvement)

The current arc of Guardians of the Galaxy (Dealing with their involvement)

As the story establishes, there are four Kings involved. Three have been revealed thus far.

For further reading, which would give background to how most of the players got to their current status quo, some good reading would be, for each set of characters:

Inhumans: Son of M, Silent War, Secret Invasion: Inhumans

Shi'ar: X-Men: Deadly Genesis, X-Men: Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar Empire, X-Men: Emperor Vulcan, X-Men: Kingbreaker

Kree/Negative Zone/Guardians of the Galaxy: Annihilation, Annihilation: Conquest, select issues of Nova and Guardians of the Galaxy

All the relevant info catching you up will likely be contained in recap pages, but if you've got some time to kill and just feel like reading something fun, that's the leadup.

Here's some basic run-down of the main players, major spoilers ahead:

The Inhumans: They're a race of super powered humans created by the alien Kree through a chemical called the Terrigen Mists. They live isolated on the moon, fearing normal humans. After the House of M storyline where 90% of mutants lost their powers permanently (An editorial effort to clean up the over abundance if useless mutants), Quicksilver, the son of Magneto who is also married to an Inhuman, went to them for help. They refuse to give him access to the Terrigen Mists, but he ends up stealing them. Eventually, the U.S. Government gets ahold of them and the Inhumans go to war to get them back. The Inhumans are eventually infiltrated by the Skrulls, one of whom poses as their leader Black Bolt. I'm not sure how this all turns out as I haven't read it, but I do know they recover Black Bolt and he will be one of the "Kings" in the event.

The Shi'ar: This one I'm more familiar with, as I read X-Men routinely. Vulcan, a mutant by the name of Gabriel Summers, appears on Earth shortly after House of M. He was part of a kind of X-Men 1.5, created between the original team and the All New team in the seventies. They were sent to rescue the originals from Krakoa originally, but all were presumed dead. It's revealed that Vulcan and Darwin (Whose power is to basically just evolve automatically to survive, not to fight better, just to survive) survived. Vulcan's origin is revealed as having been Cyclops and Havok's brother, who was born in Shi'ar space after their parents were abducted . After Vulcan learns the extent of his origin, he goes to Shi'ar space to destroy their empire (Followed by Xavier, Darwin, Nightcrawler, Havok, Polaris and Warpath). Over the course of the next twelve issues, he ends up marrying Deathbird, killing Emperor D'ken, his father Corsair and becoming the new Emperor. Havok, Phoenix (Rachel Summers), Polaris and what's left of the Starjammers, as well as former Empress Lilandra, stay in space to fight Vulcan. Vulcan eventually captures Havok and Polaris. That leads us to now. Vulcan is the second king

I don't know much of anything about the Annihilation end of things. All I know is that Annihulus destroyed a large chunk of the Kree and Skrulls Empires before being stopped in the first mini, and then the Phalanx and Ultron further messed up the Kree. Blastaar is said to be the third king, King of the Negative Zone.


In regards to R.I.P., finished...is a subjective term...

Batman R.I.P, in all technicality, finished last month. There has been zero resolution to it, though, and in order to properly understand it, you have to read large chunks of Morrison's Batman run, the current followup "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader" and the Final Crisis event. All told, I would just as soon skip it if I were you, it was pretty much entirely crap and not even worth a download.

For those who want to know:

Batman's driven insane by a new villain/villain group called the Black Glove, who claims to be his father, Thomas Wayne, referring to himself as Dr. Hurt. Dr. Hurt claims that the shooting was actually arranged, saying that Martha Wayne slept with Alfred in a drug addled orgy, so Thomas paid Joe Chill to kill her and make it look like a mugging, faking his own death. Batman gets hopped up on drugs and thinks he's the Batman of Zur-En-Arrh, another dimension or planet or some other bullshit. He also lives through what is essentially that idiotic cliche of 'i got advice from a kindly old man last night' 'but that kindly old man died last week OMGZ! Was it a ghost or a dream?!' The Black Glove society does some dance thing where rich people bet on whether or not Dr. Hurt can kill Batman. Dr. Hurt kidnaps Nightwing and hires the Joker. Nightwing is about to be lobotomized for about four issues while Joker sits and talks esoterically about nothing for three issues. Batman's girlfriend, whom he told his identity to for some reason that was never really clear, turns out to work for Dr. Hurt and suddenly is a bloodthirsty psycho out of nowhere. Alfred gets beaten up a lot. Joker kills a couple Black Glove members and Batman is drugged and put into a coffin to die. Batman gets out of the coffin and reveals he knew their plan all along and had, years ago, conditioned his mind to have a backup personality (Zur-En-Arrh) in case someone brainwashed him and drove him mad. He knew his girlfriend was a traitor all along too, which doesn't really account for him giving his identity away, but whatevs. He knocks out the power and Nightwing gets away. The Joker laughs and kills a couple more Black Glove people cause he wants to be a member. Batman chases Dr. Hurt to a helicopter and tells Dr. Hurt he's not Thomas Wayne, Dr. Hurt says he is, Batman says he isn't, the helicopter blows up. Batman is now missing for six months and presumed dead. He didn't die in the explosion and why he disappeared will be revealed in Final Crisis OMGZ. So basically, we have six issues of meandering, senseless and illogical bullshit followed by "Oh, by the way, this really doesn't matter, the actual climax happens in Final Crisis. GIVE US MORE MONEY OUR MARKET SHARE IS IN THE SHITTER!"

Yeah. It's pretty much garbage.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Blue Kitty on 15 Dec 2008, 07:09
I thought Darkhawk was in that picture, I've been wondering what the rest of the Loners have been up to since the end of the series.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: 0bsessions on 15 Dec 2008, 07:18
It makes me a little sad that there is only one character in that entire picture who I cannot name (The glowy dude that Nova is flying at). I assume he's a member of the Shi'ar Imperial Guard due to his proximity to Gladiator, but that's best guess.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Tom on 15 Dec 2008, 19:29
Oh God, R.I.P. sounds worse than Hush.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Blue Kitty on 15 Dec 2008, 19:55
It makes me a little sad that there is only one character in that entire picture who I cannot name (The glowy dude that Nova is flying at). I assume he's a member of the Shi'ar Imperial Guard due to his proximity to Gladiator, but that's best guess.

I had to do some digging, and even then that is shoddy at best, but my guess is G-Type
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: onewheelwizzard on 23 Dec 2008, 03:57
Unmitigated successes that are essential:

Watchmen
V For Vendetta
The Invisibles
Bone
Preacher
Transmetropolitan
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Gemmwah on 23 Dec 2008, 05:37
My best friend bought me Tank Girl vol. 1 for my birthday, and just gave me Watchmen for Christmas. She is the best person in the world, I swear, she's fuelling my geeky loves. Watchmen is so much better when you own it.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Blue Kitty on 23 Dec 2008, 10:57
Something I just remembered since I picked up the last volume of it, Gotham Central.  Ever wondered what the police does in Batman's city?  WELL WONDER NO MORE.

Pretty damn good read about cops having to deal with often times super powered psychos.  Heavily times in with the the new Spectre and Question comics, and fairly non-sequential.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: ThePrettyMonster on 23 Dec 2008, 17:39
(http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/yhst-23599503122488_2032_76745878)
Joker. Kind of dark but definitely worth the read
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: KharBevNor on 24 Dec 2008, 08:32
I've never really managed to get into American superhero comics. There's a number of reasons, I suppose. The ridiculous costumes, the proliferation of storylines, the ridiculous number of things you have to read to make sense of it all (Obsessions post just above is a perfect example of this). Anyway, to be nationalist, I have noticed that no one's been recommending any 2000AD, apart from one recommendation of The Ballad of Halo Jones, which is utterly, utterly fantastic. I just re-read it last night actually. Cruelly short (only three of a planned ten episodes were produced) but beautifully illustrated and imagined. As for the rest of 2000AD well, obviously,

(http://jb.24-7intouch.com/forum/uploads/IanMuir/2004-05-12_071015_scan0003.jpg)

(this picture never gets old).

Judge Dredd is FUCKING AWESOME. Buy all 11 trade paperbacks now. Start with the first. So very simple! When you've done that, Issues 1-4 of Strontium Dog (plus The Final Solution), and then start buying Rogue Trooper

That is all.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: nobo on 28 Dec 2008, 14:50
I think i may be the only person in the world that reads graphic novels that didn't enjoy the watchmen.

Anyway, i'll add my list of reads:

Y the last man
Ex Machina
100 Bullets

I believe all 3 of these have been mentioned already.

Also

30 days of night - comics are just like the movie, but the art is a little more surreal

DMZ - follows a journalist in the demilitarized zone in new york during the second civil war.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: supersheep on 28 Dec 2008, 14:56
I read a bunch of DMZ while I was in the states, it's quality. I'd also like to second The Walking Dead, some damn good zombie stuff.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: 0bsessions on 28 Dec 2008, 15:11
I think i may be the only person in the world that reads graphic novels that didn't enjoy the watchmen.

You're not alone. I found it was nowhere near worth the hype it's always gotten. It's not bad, per se, I just really don't think it's all that good either.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Surgoshan on 28 Dec 2008, 17:58
I think i may be the only person in the world that reads graphic novels that didn't enjoy the watchmen.

You're not alone. I found it was nowhere near worth the hype it's always gotten. It's not bad, per se, I just really don't think it's all that good either.

You two apostates needs must guard your tongues!  I've encountered it in the last few months and it is all that and a bag of potato chips.  The artwork is what really clenches it.  I think Moore's success has undermined him, when it comes to expectations, but Gibbons's artwork is so excellent that you can read it a dozen times and still catch new things... He brought so much to the story that I don't think most people realize.  From one frame to the next...  From one issue to the next...  Throughout the entire series...  Moore provided an excellent framework and Gibbons made it sing.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: nobo on 28 Dec 2008, 22:58
i just didn't find the story all that enthralling. As for the art, it was dark and dull, I didn't see any edge to it. I'm going to have to go back and read it again because i must be missing something.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Blue Kitty on 28 Dec 2008, 22:59
I find that multiple read throughs of Watchmen do it justice.  That and when I first read it I was sad it had nothing to do with Superman or Batman.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Surgoshan on 29 Dec 2008, 04:18
i just didn't find the story all that enthralling. As for the art, it was dark and dull, I didn't see any edge to it. I'm going to have to go back and read it again because i must be missing something.

Look at the transitions.  From one scene to the next, there's almost always a connection or symmetry.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: 0bsessions on 29 Dec 2008, 06:33
BK, I've always been a proponent of the idea that something is only truly excellent if it can be deemed as such on time through. If I'm not impressed by something the first time, odds are, I'm not going to go out of my way to do it again.

The story, for its time, I could suppose was revolutionary. Nothing like it had been done before, but so much has been done since that it seems almost quaint that this was once regarded as edgy. Alan Moore's done so much better work, Swamp Thing and Killing Joke spring to mind immediately. It doesn't give us any huge insight to the human condition or any major poignant plot points outside of being a competent satire of the super hero genre. Moore works better when he's making a point rather than just trying to make a pastiche of the genre. There's really no moral here outside of "Boy, Nixon was a twat and people running around in spandex sure are silly."

Gibbons' work is nice and all, but it's really rather standard eighties fare for anyone willing to look further into comics of the era.

It's a cool story and all, but it's probably the single most overrated comic book in history, just ahead of Grant Morrison's run on New X-Men. It may have been innovative, at the time and it has aged reasonably well, but it's honestly not all that great.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: KharBevNor on 29 Dec 2008, 10:25
There's really no moral here outside of "Boy, Nixon was a twat and people running around in spandex sure are silly."


dot.

dot.

dot.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: 0bsessions on 29 Dec 2008, 11:18
That Runaways is disposable writing and doesn't need a moral.

I don't mind reading something that's supposed to be nothing more than a few minutes filler I plan on reading while I take a shit. If it's fun it's fun. If I go to Burger King, I expect mediocre but tasty enough food. If someone claims they're serving me filet mignon, I'm going to hold it to a different standard and probably deride it when it turns out I'm getting a reheated T-Bone.

Watchmen is touted as a piece of graphic novel genius and the greatest graphic novel of all time. As it stands, I find it to be incredibly overrated and merely above average reading. The Killing Joke, while about dudes in spandex beating each other up, was an interesting look into the psyche of a sociopath and interesting take on the principle that one bad day can fuck anyone up. Swamp Thing (At least the volumes I've read) is a nice look at the thin line between environmental apathy and extremism. Watchmen, while I can see the point of how a society that lives a long time condoning vigilantism and elevating said vigilantes to a god-like status can lead to disaster, it really doesn't do it for me. It basically is merely a vaguely interesting satire of super hero comic dynamics and nothing more. People just inject a lot of artificial depth into it in an effort to make reading comic books look like less of a juvenile hobby.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: lprkn on 29 Dec 2008, 11:33
BK, I've always been a proponent of the idea that something is only truly excellent if it can be deemed as such one time through. If I'm not impressed by something the first time, odds are, I'm not going to go out of my way to do it again.

Basically, the worst approach to art, ever.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: 0bsessions on 29 Dec 2008, 11:39
See, I don't get that philosophy. If I feel I'm missing something, but there are enough redeeming qualities that I feel a second look is warranted, by all means, I'll look again. If I find something entirely underwhelming, what possible reason would I have to come back and sink more of my time into it? There is too much to see, read and listen to in this world to constantly revisit something I find subpar. Would you listen to an album you didn't like repeatedly for fear of having "not gotten the point" the first time through? I'm confident enough in my intelligence that if I find something dissatisfying, the onus of it being enjoyable probably doesn't fall on me.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Chesire Cat on 29 Dec 2008, 16:19
Some albums tend to grow on me... a lot!

That being said, live is too short to suffer through shite, especially when you know there is good stuff out there you could spend your time on.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: 0bsessions on 29 Dec 2008, 16:50
You see, people constantly cite shit to me that I noticed to an extent reading Watchmen, I've just read enough comics in my day that I really don't find most of the examples all that impressive. Alan Moore didn't invent character development. Again, I'm not saying it's bad, I just don't find it to be all that compelling.

In terms of everyone around me thinking it's a fantastic piece of work being reasoning to read it again, I disagree entirely. Mob mentality doesn't work with me. There was a period of time where everyone around me thought cocaine was pretty keen, but you don't see me reconsidering my desire to give it a shot. If everyone around me told me getting my nuts stomped was an absolute blast, I don't think I'd have to try it twice to realize why it wasn't really for me.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Blue Kitty on 29 Dec 2008, 17:57
It's kind of funny that you cite The Killing Joke, cause for some reason I found it underwhelming.  Maybe because everyone was telling me I was supposed to love it, but all I saw was yet another origin story for the Joker.  I found the comic with the Phantom Stranger's origin much better.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: KharBevNor on 29 Dec 2008, 20:24
The thing is Jon, the fact that you think there's no moral to watchman beyond not liking Nixon and taking the piss out of superheroes is pretty strong evidence that you didn't understand the plot or dialogue.

At all.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: lprkn on 30 Dec 2008, 00:55
Going through life riding on your first impressions leaves you with a lot of missed opportunities,in my opinion.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: 0bsessions on 30 Dec 2008, 06:26
Khar, if you'[re so dead set on the idea that I don't get it, explain it to me. I've got three people breathing down my neck that I 'just didn't get it,' but not a one of who has cited shit worth of what there is to get beyond the things I already noticed and found trivial.

lprkn, that's a pretty terrible analogy. It would be valid if I read the first chapter, decided I didn't care for it and put it down. I read through the entire thing, didn't care for it and then made what I feel is the reasonable choice of not sitting through something I didn't enjoy twice. All I'm getting from you is shit analogies and an incessant prodding that I should sit through something I found subpar multiple times and cross my fingers that maybe, just maybe, I'll enjoy it this time.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: KharBevNor on 30 Dec 2008, 06:39
Because it would be much simpler and more rewarding to you for you to read it again?

Okay:

1) It's asking whether the concept of an incorruptible hero makes any sense in a realistic setting.

2) It's asking whether it is better for people to give up their responsibility to shadowy, powerful agents (either governments or heroes) or to take their lives in their own hands and probably fail spectacularly.

There's also the central struggle between the two horrifying forms of idealism represented by Veidt and Rorschach. Also, furthermore, I think you'll find that there isn't really that much of the 'spandex and superheroes are silly ololol'. Watchmen just tries to make everything a bit more realistic, and the comments some people make about superheroes are fairly accurate to what things would be like if people ran around in tight costumes beating people up in the real world. But the emotional complexity, especially around the two Nite Owl characters, is far and beyond just taking the piss.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: 0bsessions on 30 Dec 2008, 06:58
I'll admit that the "superheroes are silly" remark is an oversimplification, but it's the shortest and simplest way of conveying it. I'm not saying that Watchmen is conveying that reading about superheroes is silly (Which has always been more of a Grant Morrison thing than an Alan Moore thing), he's conveying that the idea of trusting superheroes to work within our best interests is silly, which is, as I noted, a simplification of the two points you make. The failure of the corruptible hero and the onus of responsibility in a society with superheroes both fall under the "super heroes are silly" point I observed before. I find this to be merely adequate satire than any brilliant point. The idea's been showing up in literature for years and showed up in simpler terms in various comics before Watchmen ever saw print. I just don't see it as any revolutionary genius, just a pretty alright satire that read pretty mundane to me.

Sure, maybe if I read it in 1985, I might have enjoyed it more. I even tried to put myself into the context of the time and what I know of it in an effort to enjoy it more, but it didn't happen.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: KharBevNor on 30 Dec 2008, 09:01
But the point is the only incorruptible hero is the most dangerous one.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Scandanavian War Machine on 30 Dec 2008, 11:36
It's kind of funny that you cite The Killing Joke, cause for some reason I found it underwhelming.

yeah, i was a little disappointed as well. i was really looking forward to it because it's held in such high regard but as soon as i opened it up i was like "uh i don't know about this art" and after reading it was not very impressed. i'll probably read it a couple more times just to be sure (since it's so damn short) but yeah...underwhelming.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Joseph on 30 Dec 2008, 11:41
Clearly From Hell is the place to go for Alan Moore.  Seriously.

Also, has anyone here read Lost Girls?  Opinions?
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: lprkn on 30 Dec 2008, 13:21
The fact that you dislike Watchmen is not really what I'm taking issue with. When something is widely acclaimed, there will the minority who don't like it for whatever reason, valid or no.

It's your general approach to art/entertainment/whatever. I just don't think that making up your mind once about something and holding to that impression come hell or high water is a good approach. Times change, people change. I watched Apocalypse Now as a young teenager and I didn't like it. I saw it again, when I was older, and I had to change what I thought about the film. Art is not something that necessarily must be enjoyed, sometimes it takes a little intellectual legwork to appreciate what it's going for.

I'm not going to talk about the themes and artistic significance of Watchmen, because anybody who wants to can find them on the internet. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmen) has a decent write-up on its construction and themes.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: 0bsessions on 30 Dec 2008, 13:40
You see, your problem is poor assumption.

I'm not an idiot. I know tastes change. When I was eleven, I thought the first Mortal Kombat movie was absolute genius. Upon watching it about ten years later, I realized I had really poor taste in movies as an eleven year old.

I read Watchmen for the first time when I was 22 and I'm 24 now. My tastes have not changed so significantly in a span of two years that I see any logical reason to go back and scan through something I wasn't all that keen on previously. That simply does not make an ounce of sense.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Ikrik on 30 Dec 2008, 21:48
Have we discussed Pride of Baghdad? Or just Pride?  It's pretty amazing but a review on the back says it's just as good as Watchmen which made me cringe.

Also....if I want to get into Spiderman, what should I be getting (graphic novels or compilations...I can't get into issues). 
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: onewheelwizzard on 30 Dec 2008, 23:52
Jon, I'm going to jump on the bandwagon, Watchmen is the greatest graphic novel ever written, and you seem to have missed a fair bit of it.

Personally the thing that does it for me with Watchmen is the incredible scope of it.  There is SO MUCH GOING ON in that book, and it is all integrated into a seamless whole.  I'm pretty sure I still haven't exhausted the levels on which the book can be understood, and I already think it's the most successfully complex and multifaceted graphic novel in history.  There are simply no chinks in the universe.  Any one of the stories in it (Rorschach's story, Dr. Manhattan's story, Ozymandias's story, The Comedian's story, Nite Owl's story, Silk Spectre's story, etc., etc., etc.) could be a successful stand-alone work, even the minor characters like the libertarian news editor or the lesbian couple or the psychologist are exceptionally developed, but Moore has managed to put them ALL into a single work without losing the power of any of them or sacrificing the story to the characters.  I don't think any of it could be taken out and I don't think anything could be added.

Anyway, I just read Warren Ellis's "Black Summer," and it's awesome.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: 0bsessions on 31 Dec 2008, 06:16
Also....if I want to get into Spiderman, what should I be getting (graphic novels or compilations...I can't get into issues). 

Depends on whether or not you really give an honest rat's ass about reading the original. If not, I'd say just go right into Ultimate Spider-Man. Ultimate Spider-Man is one of those start from scratch modernizations of a classic character in an alternate continuity specifically tailored for new readers. It's a bit decompressed, but it pretty much captures the essence of the character without seeming to hokey. It also has the benefit of having been handled by a single writer for its entire run thus far (129 issues) without having actively crossed over with anything, so you don'[t need any other books to get what's going on (Even guest appearances are always well handled and self contained).

Start here: Ultimate Spider-Man Ultimate Collection (http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Spider-Man-Collection-Vol-v/dp/0785124926/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230731977&sr=8-3). If you dig it, keep on going, though if you do, note that that trade actually encompasses the first two volumes, so you'd want to continue on with volume 3.

If you're into main continuity stuff or eventually want something different, I'd personally recommend the following:

Death of the Stacys (http://www.amazon.com/Spider-Man-Stacys-Marvel-Premiere-Classic/dp/0785125043/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230732339&sr=1-3): This isn't actually two adjacent storylines, but two slightly intertwined stories from the seventies, the second of which is probably the most well known Spider-Man storyline in comics circles.

Kraven'[s Last Hunt (http://www.amazon.com/Spider-Man-Kravens-J-M-DeMatteis/dp/0785134506/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230732339&sr=1-1): From the eighties, easily one of the best Spider-Man stories ever done.

Spider-Man: Reign (http://www.amazon.com/Spider-Man-Reign-Kaare-Andrews/dp/0785126651/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230732600&sr=1-9): Literally not much more than a rip-off of Dark Knight Returns, except with Spider-Man. It's an enjoyable read, however, because the writer's making no illusions otherwise. It's clearly borrowing from DKR and doing it well.

Avoid any collection with the words 'Venom,' 'Carnage' or 'Clone' in the title.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Surgoshan on 31 Dec 2008, 07:23
I just read the GN adaptation of Gaiman's Neverwhere.  It was... okay.  I'm ambivalent about it and will probably have to reread both it and the novel to fully flesh out my impression.  It's an incredibly quick read, or maybe I just read it to fast and that's the problem I had with it.  I understand that the adaptationist had to cut a lot and change a few things, but the story just advanced far too quickly.  By putting it all into a visual medium like that, it cut out the majority of the strangeness because it no longer had to be filtered through our own perceptions and preconceptions.  And by making it so short, there was pretty much no time to see Dick's reaction to anything.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: 0bsessions on 31 Dec 2008, 07:28
Honestly, you shouldn't have even bothered. Novel/movie/TV adaptations into comic book format are pretty much universally terrible. I don't think I've ever read a single good one.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Surgoshan on 31 Dec 2008, 07:34
Well, Buffy the Vampire Slayer has made a successful transition, though not adaptation, to the GN format.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: 0bsessions on 31 Dec 2008, 07:41
Yeah, pretty different, though. The Transformers comic is allegedly pretty good and even Gargoyles had a brief, but successful, run as a comic. Direct adaptations pretty much invariably fall flat, though.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Blue Kitty on 31 Dec 2008, 10:31
It's definitely a step up form [email protected] in that aspect, though. Jesus Christ, what an atrocious mess that is.

Oh god, I didn't know what I was going into.  I read through the first TPB and thought it was pretty good, then I downloaded the rest and started to freak out.  Why did it turn into some sort of cosmic fuckfest to save the universe?

Oh, one thing with the symbiotes from Spider-man:  anything with Venom or Carnage is terrible, but I found that I enjoyed the recent Toxin TPB and wish they would do more with him, though I doubt anything will thanks to OMD.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: nobo on 01 Jan 2009, 12:29
Pride of Bhagdad is good, but it is nowhere near Watchmen, and doesn't really explore themes that haven't been beaten to death already.


Pride of Bhagdad is about the lions right? if that is the case, i would have to disagree completely. I found Pride of Baghdad much more engaging and relevant. I had a lot of trouble relating to any of the characters in the watchmen.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Dazed on 01 Jan 2009, 13:27
See also:

Serenity: Those Left Behind

Man, what a terrible comic.

Oh god yes, I read part of this during a break at my old job (barnes and noble lolol), and it was a fucking trainwreck. However, I did really like the art for the Neverwhere GN. The storytelling was a little bit rushed, but I thought the art was excellent.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Surgoshan on 01 Jan 2009, 13:37
Definitely.  Couldn't complain about the art.  I think the GN would have been good if it were about twice as long.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Blue Kitty on 01 Jan 2009, 19:21
For one reason or another I couldn't get through the first TPB for Rex Mundi.

Any way, something else that you should definitely pick up is the Immortal Iron Fist.  I don't know if you know the character, but he was some kung fu based super hero Marvel decided to make back when kung fu was all the rage.  Well the decided to make him as awesome as he should be with a new series, which has two TPB's out right now I think.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Tom on 01 Jan 2009, 19:38
Is Gerard Way's comic, The Umbrella Academy worth my time?
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Garp on 01 Jan 2009, 22:24
i saw that in the shelf the other day as well the other day, it looked intriguing. It is the one with the cello lady on the front, am i correct?

how do you people feel about marvel/dc in general? it always seemed to me like marvel held a slightly sillier, more spandex-oriented line than dc, which always looked more, well, artistically motivated. i never really liked the general everlasting superhero idea, has marvel got any non-spandex comics worth checking out?
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: RedLion on 01 Jan 2009, 22:43
It might have already been discussed, but how about Kingdom Come? I remember reading it as a kid, but I didn't really "get it" back then. I found it buried in my closet yesterday and whipped through it again...I really love the art in it, and the plot is pretty good if overdramatic.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Tom on 01 Jan 2009, 23:37
how do you people feel about marvel/dc in general? it always seemed to me like marvel held a slightly sillier, more spandex-oriented line than dc, which always looked more, well, artistically motivated. i never really liked the general everlasting superhero idea, has marvel got any non-spandex comics worth checking out?

You're serious, right?
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Garp on 02 Jan 2009, 00:57
I am! Literally every single Marvel comic I have seen has been about some ridiculous looking dude in a suit. The exception is the punisher, but I never really warmed to him... frank castle is a cold hearted sonofabitch. i know dc has their own line of superhero silliness, but the dc/vertigo stuff tends to be pretty good.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Joseph on 02 Jan 2009, 01:52
Ed Brubaker's Criminal is supposed to be quite good, as far as separation from superheroes.  I haven't read it, but I've loved Brubaker's work on other comics, so I imagine it has much potential.  Marvel also does a whole line of literary adaptations, such as Stephen King's The Stand and Dark Tower, Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game, and The Wizard of Oz.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: lprkn on 02 Jan 2009, 10:58
If you're not willing to read about a "ridiculous dude in a suit" then you're missing out on some good stuff. A lot of bad stuff, but some good stuff, too. The aforementioned Immortal Iron Fist is one of the good ones.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Garp on 02 Jan 2009, 12:41
Hm. it's not so much the suits, more the fact that these series run forever. I like stories with a definite ending and preferably with one artist and writer, I'm not so hot on Batman, Spiderman, X-Men, Daredevil and the likes. does immortal iron fist have an ending?

Oh by the way I also recently read Wanted by mark millar, which was pretty decent. has anyone else read it?
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: 0bsessions on 02 Jan 2009, 16:55
how do you people feel about marvel/dc in general? it always seemed to me like marvel held a slightly sillier, more spandex-oriented line than dc, which always looked more, well, artistically motivated. i never really liked the general everlasting superhero idea, has marvel got any non-spandex comics worth checking out?

First, I'll cover the misconception:

DC actually pretty much invented super hero comics. I've read both off and on and DC is actually MUCH sillier in terms of overall characters, storylines and themes overall.

In terms of non-spandex Marvel, though, Punisher's about it right now. The non-spandex stuff overall just doesn't sell, so not much is produced. Even the Vertigo line is barely clinging at this point.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Garp on 02 Jan 2009, 22:35
I haven't been reading comics for a long time so what's hot right now doesn't really matter that much. i've just seen the difference between shelves at the store, the marvel line tends to carry stuff like runaways (i agree with jeans on this comic) whereas dc is more along preacher, transmetropolitan, sandman and the likes. i know dc has their share of spandex as well, but i haven't seen any marvel of preacher quality yet - i haven't really been looking though.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Chesire Cat on 02 Jan 2009, 22:56
Lets not overly confuse DC and Vertigo.  Sure they are the same entity, but they aren't, know what I'm sayin'
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Blue Kitty on 02 Jan 2009, 23:16
Is Gerard Way's comic, The Umbrella Academy worth my time?

I found that Umbrella Academy: Apocalypse Suite was actually pretty good.  A lot of weird, kind of Silver Age, random shit going on, but some how Gerard Way makes it work.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Chesire Cat on 03 Jan 2009, 10:29
Gerard Way?
(http://www.quizilla.com/user_images/S/SE/SES/Sesshomarufan1/1141532823_fGerardWay.jpg)

Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Joseph on 03 Jan 2009, 11:12
Same guy.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Tom on 03 Jan 2009, 12:22
I haven't been reading comics for a long time so what's hot right now doesn't really matter that much. i've just seen the difference between shelves at the store, the marvel line tends to carry stuff like runaways (i agree with jeans on this comic) whereas dc is more along preacher, transmetropolitan, sandman and the likes. i know dc has their share of spandex as well, but i haven't seen any marvel of preacher quality yet - i haven't really been looking though.

Those are technically Vertigo (an imprint of DC) titles. They mostly have nothing to do with mainstream DC continuity. DC is actually more along the lines of JLA, Batman, Wonder Woman and Superman.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: 0bsessions on 03 Jan 2009, 13:35
Lets not overly confuse DC and Vertigo.  Sure they are the same entity, but they aren't, know what I'm sayin'

This. DC and Vertigo have about as much to do with each other as DC has to do with Animaniacs. Sure, they're all owned by the same folks, but that's about where the similarities stop. There was some very vague crossover back when the line started, but the two have been completely different entities for close to twenty years now.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Chesire Cat on 03 Jan 2009, 13:49
So you do, "know what I'm sayin'"
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: lprkn on 11 Jan 2009, 12:17
For anybody who's interested, CBR is doing a thing called "Re-Reading Watchmen (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=19242)" in which they take retrospective critical look at the series. So far, they're up to Issue #4 (an English professor joins them for that one). Good stuff.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Scandanavian War Machine on 12 Jan 2009, 11:56
so i just bought V for Vendetta. i haven't started reading it yet because i want to finish what i'm reading right now first.

opinions to follow upon completion.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: dancarter on 14 Jan 2009, 12:40
Re: Watchmen, Alan Moore in gerneral.

While I don't particulairly have a problem with Watchmen, I do think the years have been overly kind to it, much in the same way they have been to Dark Knight.  Moore's a smart man, an inventive man.  I do think he crammed a ton of info and inventiveness into the story.  I do think he expanded upon the method of constructing narrative within the form, but do I think the story is any great shakes? Not particularly.  I think he transplanted the tropes, ideas, themes and methodology of one or more forms of litererature and moved them into another.  The fact that he was the first to do so in comics makes him a smart man.  I think Watchmen kind of falls prey to Moore reminding everyone how damned smart that structure and his writing itself is constantly, which is a problem I have with a lot of his work, save for the dreck he wrote for Image in the nineties.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Scandanavian War Machine on 14 Jan 2009, 13:50
i just realized that the three graphic novels i've bought since i started this thread have all been Alan Moore (Watchmen, The Killing Joke, V for Vendetta). i didn't even realize i was doing it, but i guess it says something about the guy that everything by him came the most highly recommended and appealed the most to me.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: RedLion on 14 Jan 2009, 23:22
Re: Watchmen, Alan Moore in gerneral.

While I don't particulairly have a problem with Watchmen, I do think the years have been overly kind to it, much in the same way they have been to Dark Knight.  Moore's a smart man, an inventive man.  I do think he crammed a ton of info and inventiveness into the story.  I do think he expanded upon the method of constructing narrative within the form, but do I think the story is any great shakes? Not particularly.  I think he transplanted the tropes, ideas, themes and methodology of one or more forms of litererature and moved them into another.  The fact that he was the first to do so in comics makes him a smart man.  I think Watchmen kind of falls prey to Moore reminding everyone how damned smart that structure and his writing itself is constantly, which is a problem I have with a lot of his work, save for the dreck he wrote for Image in the nineties.

Spoilers--

Other than the alien thing that sort of comes out of left field, what's not "great" about the plot?
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: dancarter on 15 Jan 2009, 03:28
I don't have a problem with the plot, per se.  What I do have a problem with is the idea of it being as engrossing as everyone tends to believe it is.  The structure, the mechanics of the book itself are so rigid that I find it very cold and lifeless.  I know that this is by far a minority opinion.  I think the innovation in terms of said story structure and mechanics kind of shunted the plot and its potential impact.  I admire it for being what it was at the time time, and being one of the first of its kind, but I also believe, despite what many critics and Moore himself have said, that other authors, artists and series have surpassed by leaps and bounds.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Joseph on 15 Jan 2009, 04:43
Examples please?

I mean, I don't think it's the best comic ever written, but I can't think of many things which beat it by leaps and bounds.  And if we're going to stay in the super-hero genre, I don't think I can come up with anything.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: dancarter on 15 Jan 2009, 06:10
Examples?  As far as the impact being lessened?  I'm not sure I can do that, as it's more a personal feeling, and as I stated, I realize I'm in the minority in my opinion on feelings for the book.  As far as other books that take and spin the superhero genre into decidedly different and more inventive directions that open more doors and more possibilities; that personally hit me harder than Watchmen did?  Shade, The Changing Man, for one.  I realize it's an ongoing series, yes.  And you do have to stick with it for a while to get your bearings, but it explodes the idea of superheroes severeal times over in its 70 issue run, and nothing is ever constant.  I hold up issues 17 through 50 as some of the best, most inventive, heartbreaking, horrifying and touching comics ever written.  I also know that Shade probably wouldn't have come about without there having been a Watchmen, so credit where credit is due.

Oh, and apologies for all the grammer gaffs in my previous post.  It was early and my mind is mush.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: 0bsessions on 15 Jan 2009, 06:50
Everyone remember a couple pages back where I went on a tirade about how Grant Morrison is actually a pretty shit writer?

Well, I read Final Crisis #6 last night. This just in: Grant Morrison is still a pretty shit writer.


So, aside from the fact it was almost impenetrably poorly paced and jumpy, the scripting was terrible and it was little more than a "hey remember this golden age forgotten subplot/character/bad idea that was best left forgotten" wankfest. The ending sucked and came out of nowhere on top of everything. Batman just suddenly shows up with a "god-killing bullet" that was used to kill a superhero earlier in the series and for some reason he was allowed to just kind of hold onto while kept prisoner. So Batman shoots a god, gets killed and then Superman shows up, again out of nowhere having been off the table the entire series, and starts blowing shit up because he's pissed about Batman being dead, not that it's explained where he was or how the fuck he knew Batman was dead.


I swear. This fucking hack probably plots shit like the manatees in that episode of South Park where they tell us how Family Guy makes such shitty plots. He just kind of throws things out there in the hopes that at least some of his wacky bullshit sticks.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: TheDozarian on 15 Jan 2009, 07:05
I jumped in this thread because I thought I had a few comics to recommend... (Walking Dead, Watchmen, V4V).  Boy am I behind things...  You guys have given me a bunch of new fodder for my own reading time...  Thanks guys... You've just cost me a bunch of money...

 :-D
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: vegkitkat on 16 Jan 2009, 11:01
So guys, I'm taking a class on graphic novels, and for our final project we have to pick and analyze a graphic novel. However, it cannot be Watchmen, The Dark Knight Returns, Kingdom Come or Maus, as we're studying all those in class. What would you reccomend for a 20 year old girl? I'd rather do something more based upon superheroes, possible alternate realities, but I don't have the best knowledge of what would be most appealing.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Dazed on 16 Jan 2009, 12:14
World's End from the Sandman series in my opinion. It's part of the series, but it can stand alone fairly well I think.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Tom on 16 Jan 2009, 13:57
Vegikitkat, if you're after superheroes then try Top 10 by Alan Moore, possibly a collection of Brian Michael Bendis' Powers, Alex Ross' Earth X, an alternate future for the Marvel universe or Kingdom Come which is also by Ross and, unsurprisingly is thematically similar to Earth X but about only a third the length of it with lost of apocalyptic/judeo-christian imagery. They all deal with power and responsibility in societies were almost everyone has powers and have seemingly forgotten Ben Parker's maxim. Powers and Top 10 also combine aspects of crime fiction genres.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Blue Kitty on 16 Jan 2009, 16:59
She can't do Kingdom Come man.

I would say the Walking Dead would be great to do a paper on. 
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: dancarter on 17 Jan 2009, 01:45
A fwe more to choose from, Vegikitkat:
Enigma by Peter Milligan and Duncan Fegredo
The Fountain by Kent Williams (Yeah, it is based on the movie, but it is not the same.  It's adapted from a shooting script taken from the scrapped original).
The Mystery Play by Grant Morrison and Jon J Muth
Death: The High Cost of Living by Neil Gaiman and Chris Bachalo
Channel Zero by Brian Wood
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: vegkitkat on 18 Jan 2009, 15:17
The issue is, I'm not sure if I'm doing a paper or some other type of project on the novel that I choose. I was considering possibly doing Marvels; am I choosing something completely awful? Because I tend to prefer Marvel to DC.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Blue Kitty on 18 Jan 2009, 15:33
Oh no, Marvels is awesome.  Heck, I recommended it on the first page.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: carrotosaurus on 18 Jan 2009, 15:40
Seconded, Marvels is a quality read.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: vegkitkat on 18 Jan 2009, 16:05
Excellent, I have just ordered it and am seriously looking forward to reading it.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: fifthfiend on 18 Jan 2009, 17:08
Re: Watchmen, Alan Moore in gerneral.

While I don't particulairly have a problem with Watchmen, I do think the years have been overly kind to it, much in the same way they have been to Dark Knight.  Moore's a smart man, an inventive man.  I do think he crammed a ton of info and inventiveness into the story.  I do think he expanded upon the method of constructing narrative within the form, but do I think the story is any great shakes? Not particularly.  I think he transplanted the tropes, ideas, themes and methodology of one or more forms of litererature and moved them into another.  The fact that he was the first to do so in comics makes him a smart man.  I think Watchmen kind of falls prey to Moore reminding everyone how damned smart that structure and his writing itself is constantly, which is a problem I have with a lot of his work, save for the dreck he wrote for Image in the nineties.

Alan Moore's work for Image is some of my favorite comics writing ever, but I've always kind of generally been a fan of good dreck.

His Spawn/WildCATs crossover was especially delightful!

As a general scattering of other opinions I will say

- Wanted was quite good until I read it a second time and noticed the overt racism, misogyny and general panderingness of it

- Immortal Iron Fist was good if you like self-contained storytelling due to there's no relevant character history that isn't covered (or wholly invented) in the current comic itself and the first two collected books make for a pretty self-contained story.

- What you should really get is the three trade paperbacks of Annihilation which is basically a big-ass bitchin' war of armageddon in space.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Chesire Cat on 18 Jan 2009, 17:20
Marvels along with Astro City are my forever top two nominations.

After all Kurt Busiek is basically the Michael Jordan's Chicago Bulls of comic book writing.  With heaps of Eisner's and Harvey's under his belt.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: David_Dovey on 18 Jan 2009, 20:22
TRANSSSSMETROOOOPOOLITAAANNN
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: ThePrettyMonster on 19 Jan 2009, 11:05
Comic book club.
See, my school has an anime club, but I hate anime. So a couple of my friends and I have decided that we need to start a comic book/graphic novel club. However, none of us own enough comics to even bring about a weekly discussion.
Anyways, my question is, what would be some good ones to buy to help us start this thing?
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Blue Kitty on 19 Jan 2009, 11:09
I don't want to sound like a jerk my friend, but this thread is 4 pages long.  4 pages chock full of comics that people recommend and discussion about them.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: lprkn on 19 Jan 2009, 15:38
- Wanted was quite good until I read it a second time and noticed the overt racism, misogyny and general panderingness of it

Um, the second time? (It's ok, I'm not the brightest dude out there)

Although I know Wanted is not everybody's cup of tea, I think the racism and  misogyny bits were consciously put in there for a reason.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Surgoshan on 19 Jan 2009, 20:36
- Wanted was quite good until I read it a second time and noticed the overt racism, misogyny and general panderingness of it

Um, the second time? (It's ok, I'm not the brightest dude out there)

Although I know Wanted is not everybody's cup of tea, I think the racism and  misogyny bits were consciously put in there for a reason.

I quite enjoyed the movie.  I think the comic sounds like utter shit.  Excess for the sake of excess.  The movie wasn't artistic by any means, but at least it threw out all the "be a dick for the sake of being a dick" dickery.

I mean, seriously, the last line of the comic was "This is me fucking you in the ass."... no.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Uber Ritter on 20 Jan 2009, 22:33
Man, we should probably start a Watchmen literary analysis thread.  There's a good deal to talk about beyond the role of the hero, such as the underlying issues or power and morality and morality as power).

I need to read From Hell, particularly to see if my instinct that Moore and I have very different interpretations of the Victorian period is correct.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: tania on 08 Feb 2009, 12:18
already recommended quite a few times in this thread but maybe repetition will drive the point home - please, please do read craig thompson's blankets if you haven't already.

(http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/152/blankets2yr3.jpg)

it's an absolute masterpiece. i can't count how many times i've read this. beautifully written, beautifully illustrated. every panel is incredible. one of the most sincere, absorbing, heartbreaking, and life changing books i have ever read.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Blue Kitty on 08 Feb 2009, 16:02
Blankets was awesome, but Good-Bye, Chunky Rice was really weird.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: tania on 08 Feb 2009, 22:42
i love this avatar! the only reason i didn't change it back sooner was cos i thought i had lost it, and also cos it is old and it reminded me of when i was younger and my posts were dumber but suddenly i found it in my pictures and i decided i loved it enough to overlook the association with younger dumber tania so actually like maybe two or three reasons.

bk i have not read chunky rice but i skimmed through it briefly in a bookstore once and i thought it was pretty weird too.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Josefbugman on 09 Feb 2009, 13:35
Is the avatar Delirium? I read the Sandman books at my local library, they had all of them in and I just sat there for a few days, reading, happiest time of my life.

Well, apart from the bit where the lady sticks pins in her eyes and says "I CAN SEE THE GLORY". That bit, more than anything the corinthian said or did, got to me.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: supersheep on 09 Feb 2009, 14:16
Tank Girl.

That avatar makes me think Tania is actually Tank Girl. If I ever meet you and you are not driving a tank I will be slightly disappointed.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: arkhym on 09 Feb 2009, 16:02
Nextwave Agents of Hate and when it comes out in trade paperback X-men Magneto Testament
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Surgoshan on 09 Feb 2009, 16:33
Girl Genius.

I know the Foglios have moved it wholly online, but you can still buy their trade paperbacks.  And their story is all sorts of twisty deep.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: KvP on 13 Apr 2009, 09:51
O hai I just stumbled across this interview with Steve Ditkos, co-creator of Spiderman and the Rorschach-inspiring Question, now a frothing-at-the-mouth objectivist. (http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/blash/2009/04/06/steve-ditkos-toyland/)
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: lprkn on 13 Apr 2009, 17:30
Has any body read Infinite Horizon (http://www.the-infinite-horizon.com/site/about.html)? It's a telling of Homer's Odyssey in modern times, as a US Army captain returns home from the war in an apocalyptic world. I think it has a lot of potential.

Apparently the first three issues came out like a year ago, and the fourth just dropped. I ordered the first two issues just to check it out.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Scandanavian War Machine on 14 Apr 2009, 10:55
excellent! i'll have to check that out...sometime.

can't do it now because i'm too busy reading the new DAN SIMMONS book and it is really long. then, after that, i have The Walking Dead to start reading.
i am pretty excited about my current and future reading endeavors.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: mberan42 on 16 Apr 2009, 10:07
Have I mentioned Y: The Last Man in here yet? I can't remember. Either way, it's a great series.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: 0bsessions on 16 Apr 2009, 14:28
I believe it's been mentioned a few times.

Worth noting to those of you who've yet to read it:

The Walking Dead Compendium (http://www.amazon.com/Walking-Dead-Compendium-1/dp/1607060760/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239917184&sr=8-1)

The first forty-eight issues of the series (The sixtieth issue just hit yesterday) for under $40 if you preorder. No sensible fan of the format who has yet to read this incredible series should miss that.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: 0bsessions on 16 Apr 2009, 18:52
Or take out a loan if you don't.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: michaelicious on 25 Apr 2009, 12:10
Read David B.'s Epileptic. Don't question me, just do it. To get you turgid here's a scan of some of the ridiculously gorgeous art in the book.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b171/CatFishEnFuego/epileptic.jpg)
edit: This goes for the rest of you as well.

Finally bought this today. I was gonna start a thread about it but then I decided nah.

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: lprkn on 27 Apr 2009, 21:51
Just wanted to say I finally read Black Summer, and it was sweeeeeeet...

Although the art wasn't really to my taste, but it worked well enough.
Title: Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
Post by: Joseph on 15 May 2009, 13:06
So, anyone else pick up the first part of the new League of Extraordinary Gentlemen?