THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)
Fun Stuff => CHATTER => Topic started by: Is it cold in here? on 11 Jan 2009, 14:06
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The "sexpresso" movement" (http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20080516/NEWS01/647107885/0/SPORTS).
Competitors with fully clothed personnel say they are losing business.
At least it's not Plan Omega.
(Is this the right subforum? It didn't seem serious enough for Discuss, not quite comic-related enough for General, but I'll accept correction graciously.)
(url fixed)
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Your link is improperly formatted.
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Just delete an extra http and you're golden. Sex sells though; I mean I don't think I'd like to get my coffee from a lady just wearing pasties and a bikini, but it's legal. I mean, it's just like Hooters. I won't go there because I think it's pretty disgusting.
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at first i was like "oh man that is kind of fucked up and bothersome to me"
but then when i read the part about how the girls get more than $100 in tips everyday the first thing that jumped to my mind was "fuck yeah i would take my clothes off to sell coffee for that money!"
i think this probably says bad things about me as a person ;(
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How much would someone need to pay you for you to have sex with them?
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i don't like it, but nobody's making those girls work there so i guess what they do for money is their own business. like brittany said it isn't any different from a place like hooters. all i can really do is not support it.
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How much would someone need to pay you for you to have sex with them?
Joe is saying this because he is willing to make an offer.
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How much would someone need to pay you for you to have sex with them?
there is a difference between a stripper and a prostitute
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is there really that big a difference? both are occupations women get forced into. both are occupations that women also choose to get into because they can pay a lot of money. both are occupations that sell because lots of men like sex.
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What? Surely though there's a huge difference between being ogled and actually having to have sex with someone?
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And one of them requires little to no physical, let alone sexual, contact. Particularly if it's not actually stripping, and just making coffee whilst scantily clad.
This is a fairly major difference.
EDIT: Yeah, it would seem I was beaten to this point.
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The article makes it sound like the majority of the places are just girls wearing bikinis. I am way more down with that, which is something these girls probably normally wear a lot in the summer, than with the pasties.
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Anyone seen Idiocracy? This is the next step toward that future.
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Anyone seen Idiocracy?
Buttfuckers!
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No I was thinking more directly:
http://coolspotters.com/movies/idiocracy/and/brands/starbucks-coffee/media/24458#medium-24458
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i i agree there's a difference, i just don't think it's as black and white as "doing A is okay, but doing B is going WAY too far". sex sells and it's all just a matter of how far you're willing to go if you choose to take advantage of that. some women who work as prostitutes make a lot of money and are happy with their jobs. other women couldn't work even as strippers because they feel really dirty and horrible just being ogled. it's pretty subjective.
i don't really like either but again, i can't stop people from doing what they want to do so i don't support the stuff i don't like instead.
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No I was thinking more directly:
http://coolspotters.com/movies/idiocracy/and/brands/starbucks-coffee/media/24458#medium-24458
Forgot about that part.
I have to be honest, I don't see the huge deal here. It doesn't seem like this women are being "forced" into it. It also doesn't seem to carry any danger, unlike prostitution. And if a woman has a strong self-image and self-confidence, it doesn't necessarily have to be something demeaning.
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Anyone seen Idiocracy? This is the next step toward that future.
Thanks to that movie, my brother and I now use the term "tarded" on occasion, provided that we're around people who would get the reference or else to subtly mock those who really do call things retarded.
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i agree there's a difference, i just don't think it's as black and white as "doing A is okay, but doing B is going WAY too far". sex sells and it's all just a matter of how far you're willing to go if you choose to take advantage of that. some women who work as prostitutes make a lot of money and are happy with their jobs. other women couldn't work even as strippers because they feel really dirty and horrible just being ogled. it's pretty subjective.
i don't really like either but again, i can't stop people from doing what they want to do so i don't support the stuff i don't like instead.
Oh no, I'm not saying that this is okay and prostitution isn't, but it is, I think, preferable to prostitution - but it's relative. The 'flu is preferable to cancer.
Although unfortunately, it seems like the morality concerns expressed by people in the article are mainly third-party concerns along the lines of "Somebody just minding their own business shouldn't have to see scantily-clad women", rather than concerns about the welfare of the women in question, whether this is exploitative, whether it debases women, etc.
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You guys are taking my question more seriously than you probably should.
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yeah i am mainly talking about the actual, physical act of stripping for someone versus the actual, physical act of having sex with someone. i would feel extremely uncomfortable and humiliated doing either for money so for me it isn't such a simple matter of "well, of course i'd strip but i wouldn't have sex with someone, that's totally different". they both feel like sexual acts to me, one's just taking it further. however, i'm also talking about it outside of the social context where prostitution is (probably? i don't know a lot about strippers) the more dangerous profession because of the way a lot of women get into it and the risks associated with that, so it's probably a moot argument anyway.
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I heard about this a few years ago, something similar was started up in Chile. I think it might have even orginated there? Anyhow, here's a mini-doco (http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2007/chile_coffee_200k.asx) by the ABC's Foreign Correspondant show that presents some interesting views on the Chilean cafes. Apparently some of the girls use the work to find customers for prostitution. Also of interest is that a version of the cafe staffed by men was started up aimed at female customers, but it went out of business because not many women were into the idea of being served coffee by scantily clad men.
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Y'know that brings up an interesting idea. I bet a coffee shop staffed by scantily clad young men would be pretty popular in my neighborhood.
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They said despite the lack of women customers, it was pretty popular with gay men. I guess not popular enough to stay in business, however.
Edit: I'm curious if any of the female forumites would go into a male-staffed one? I myself probably wouldn't go into a female-staffed one... not that I really dislike or like the premise, it's just not something I think I would enjoy.
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I don't like coffee enough to consider going there. The only times I go to any coffee shop anywhere are if I have a gift card from someone who didn't know me at all (Mom, I've been living with you for the past 21 years of my life and have had maybe 3 cups of coffee in that span of time, only one of which was here) or if I am really hungry/thirsty and there is nowhere else to eat (this only happened once, we missed the bus back from a football game and walked around Baltimore trying to find UB, my mom worked there and had a car, after 3 hours we needed to eat some dinner and my options were a Donna's and Taco Bell)
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Nobody else thinking coffee is HOT and so is foamy milk so all that steam and little clothing for protection...
Little bit dangerous :/
I have had hot water on my skin and hot watter on an article of clothing, the pain and burn is worse on skin.
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That was in the article, if only a short reference.
I see no problems with it - if you're comfortable doing it, then go right ahead. Pasties seems a little bit too far, but just plain old bikinis I have absolutely no problem with.
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Yeah the "Nipplz & third degree burns" bit but aprons would still be safer tbh, I like looking at pretty girls and I like coffee.
I would still go to the place with the better coffee though.
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They can do whatever, but I sure wouldn't get a beverage there. I'd just feel awkward.
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If I ever happen upon one of these places I am tempted to buy all the girls jumpers, they might need them.
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Man, I can't wait until women everywhere are only valued if they are scantily clad! Oh man, that'll be the day. I mean, when these women decided that they needed to step out of the kitchen and start getting jobs, did they really think we'd ever vaule them for more than their bodies? Ha! I love when women go college, its just so gosh darn cute. I mean, what do they think they are going to do with those degrees? Get jobs like men? Hahahahaha gosh, those women. They should spend their money on better things, like breast implants. I am pretty sure bigger boobs will get them way more money than any useless degree.
Also, I am bitter, and find this disgusting. I mean, what next? Hiring black people to pick cotton?
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Dang, for the equivalent of $100 in tips I'd do that every time i work, not only on special occasions and for fun as I do it now.
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Man, this thread.
Okay, first off, going in and handing out jumpers or any of that kind of thing is at least as demeaning as going in and ogling the women. Second, women are going to be valued for their bodies. Men are going to be valued for their bodies. There's not really any getting around that, since our bodies are a big part of who we are; hell, they're the only thing tangible about us. Also, what's wrong with hiring a black person to pick cotton? What if they need a job? Are we going to let historical precedent rule the rest of our lives? I mean, really, the problem with this is that women are marginalized due to their sexual identity. Now, we can try and pretend that men won't respond to women sexually, or we can work on stopping people from marginalizing women based on their gender. I don't know about you guys, but I'm going to work on the latter problem since there's actually a chance we can fix that one eventually.
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Man, if the coffee doesn't wake you up in the morning, the tits surely will.
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Man, I need some coffee. I don't know why, but it's like I've been cranky as hell since around 7. Fuck.
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Stuff
I think you missed my point.
Wouldn't it be nice if people were going to these coffee shops, not because women had their tits hanging out, but because the coffee was good? Wouldn't it be fucking fantastic it we started treating each other as humans, and not like slabs of meat?
I too am grouchy, and have been craving caffeine. But I think I will get it from my hairy, slightly chubby, male friend's family's coffee shop.
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No, I get it. A lot of them aren't going for the coffee. It happens. And humans ARE in part, slabs of meat. It's going to affect our judgement.
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Humans are slabs of meat, who think, and have feelings, and are more than just a warm hole.
The point I am getting at is, isn't it nice to treat people as PEOPLE and not as sex toys?
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See, and I hold there's a difference between treating someone as a sex toy and buying coffee from a woman in a bikini. Here's the thing: I primarily value free will. As far as I can tell, the big problem with the way women were marginalized in the past is that like you say, they were not allowed to do their own thing and were simply treated as second class citizens valued only for their bodies. Now, women have a measure of choice. I'm not going to go criticizing what they do with that choice unless it harms me directly. I personally have misgivings about this whole thing, but I'm not going to go around being bitter about it or assuming that this is the end of civilization as we know it.
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I was only handing out the jumpers to be nice, I thought they may get chilly on the walk home. I am not forcing them to wear them, I just thought it would be nice to show them that not everyone cares how they look.
Yes, I do mean this sincerly.
It's just that, well from my point of view as someone who find sex a bit... personal I wouldn't really want to be served by someone wearing just their pants, no matter how shapely or well filled those pants are. Also it would be odd if I say got a job at a coffee place and ended up with a single item of clothing as "uniform" it would just be rather strange and off putting.
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Um, people doing these kind of jobs don't wear the bikinis/g-strings on their way home. Just so you know.
I have friends who are lingerie waitresses and dancers (the pole kind). If I told them I thought they were being exploited, marginalised, or anything else, they'd laugh in my face. Not that I'd tell them anything of the type, mind you.
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So, here's an interesting dilemma. I find the idea of these kinds of places really tacky and seedy and I'd never set foot in one - but on the other hand, where I live there are easily a dozen cafes within a ten-minute walk from my house, and in deciding which one to patronise on any given day I have in the past based my decision upon which cafe has the prettier waitresses, simply because it adds to my enjoyment of the experience. So, what's the difference? Why do I feel comfortable in one situation but appalled by the other? Is it because the semi-nudity of the "sexpresso" places makes it all so overt? Is it more acceptable for me to go where the pretty faces are, than it would be if I went chasing the boobs? I'm interested to hear what people think because I can't quite get my head around it and I'm wondering if it's a double-standard.
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I don't think it's a double-standard. The degree of nudity people are comfortable with is subjective, and varies from person to person, and culture to culture. People in Australia definitely find nudity more confronting than a pretty face, or even other things, like violence.
Would it make a difference to you if you knew that the cafe with the pretty waitresses only hired pretty waitresses because of their looks?
Would you work in a cafe that catered to customers that were beard-fetishists?
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Would it make a difference to you if you knew that the cafe with the pretty waitresses only hired pretty waitresses because of their looks?
To me, that's really the only big, worrying issue with this kind of thing. The rest of it just hits me as "Oh noez, not boobies!"
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I feel like my biggest concern may be the possibility of burns. That's a lot of exposed skin ; somebody's going to spill sometime soon. And then can they fire you because you've horribly disfigured yourself (i'm assuming you are making a lot of coffee)?
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People need to calm the hell down and stop reading so much into this. There really isn't some kind of deep meaning to this. The only meaning is what we've always known: sex sells. As long as the women aren't being exploited--and they're not--it's not a big deal. I would probably not go to this kind of place, but only because it's a strange, incongruous combination.
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as much as that article disgusts and frustrates me, and as hard as it is for me to write the rest of this post, i do agree with alex that the women working there still have free will and the right to choose to do whatever they want for money. telling a woman to work in this kind of occupation is just as offensive as telling her she can't. in both scenarios, you're still undermining their intelligence and their ability to make their own decisions as to what they want to do with their lives.
i don't, however, like the fact that these coffee shops are putting other coffee shops out of business or forcing them to convert to the same business model. it doesn't leave a lot of alternatives for those people who don't want to support them.
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What I found interesting to reflect on his how my feelings about appropriate attire are so context sensitive. Like, when I went to the article I barely paid any attention to the picture next to it because it looks so normal. Or rather, it looks just like hundreds of snack shops I've seen on the beach, and then it occurred to me that the picture isn't a snack shop on the beach. I mean, it's pretty routine for girls wearing bikini tops to be staffing a beach snack shop, and so in that context you wouldn't give it a second thought (actually, probably not even a first thought.) But a coffee-shop located somewhere inland, in the midst of a bitter winter (I'm assuming the article is talking about right now,) well that's pretty odd.
This sort of compartmentalizing of what's appropriate in different situations is perfectly normal and sensible, but it is still interesting to reflect on when you are made consciously aware of it.
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Kinda reminds me of the theme of Idiocracy.
S
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This is awesome
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COFFEE AND TITS
SERIOUS BUSINESS
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When I first read the word "pasties" I thought they were talking about the delicious kind.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/jesusvsthepolice/pasty.jpg)
That kind.
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That is completely a coffee shop I would go to if they served pasties. I don't even need tits at that point.
Also, I love my pagebreak. That is pretty much my favorite post I will ever make now.
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Topless coffee shop (http://www.wcsh6.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=98532&catid=2)
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For those of you who like tits, but can't stand alcohol.
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I like how the topless coffee shop will be located at the former "Mac Daddy's Pub at the Fatcat Grille" building. CLASSY.
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Guys, do you know how hot it gets working behind an espresso machine, even in the dead of winter? I'm just sayin'
Anyway, as a barista (I feel my contribution earns a touch of professionalism to this thread) I would say good gravy, do these girls not treasure the soft milky skin of their stomachs? I come home from work every day absolutely covered in coffee and milk stains. Occasionally if a smidgen of skin is showing at my midriff I burn it when I'm purging the steam wand. I wouldn't go to work without my stomach covered at least, and I wear long pants most every day because the coffee grinds get all over my feet and ankles (I have started wearing brown pants so it doesn't show as much.) The horrible part about working coffee also is that your hands look revolting, dry and callused from all the water and the constant movement, with torn stained cuticles and coffee grounds under the nails. My face is always greasy from sweat and it's useless to think about doing my hair because the humidity plays havoc with it. So really. These girls can't look all that hot.
Oh. And.
As a lady with an okay body, I would say yes, I would probably work at one of these places because they sound funny. And, y'know. Tips are great. I get hit on enough at work really when I'm in a daggy t-shirt and jeans, I don't think any of that would change if I were to wear less. Don't get angry about it, my lovely forumites! It is really not worth your fury!
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The article was in the summer, so it was probably in the 60s or 70s (this is Washington), there were two other articles similar (I searched sexpresso to find the story, and won't that be fun to justify if someone uses my laptop?), the last one was saying that the pasties, scarf, or electrical tape waitresses made it count as... adult something-or-other, not sure if the bikini ones were stopped by the zoning issues as well.
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Oh, and for the utterly confused (as I was):
Pasties (sing. 'pastie') are adhesive coverings applied to cover a person's nipples. They vary in size and are usually not much larger than the person's areola.
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But Lunchy what is the point of feminism if we are not allowed to get really angry on behalf of other (obviously misguided/brainwashed/subjugated) fully-grown human beings?
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Seriously, we're posting on the forums for a webcomic about a coffee shop whose seemingly only defining characteristic is that it's staffed by snarky hot chicks. The sexy barista thing is a common cliche already, but now we're greatly and angrily offended because now there's skin involved. It's fine when it's a subtle, subversive sexism we can ignore, but now it's overt FUCK Y'ALL.
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The funny part is that someone said something about how some of us are "so angry and offended a bloo bloo" before anyone actually said anything like that?
I think that this has the possibility for exploitation. I guess every job has the potential but this is like who someone replied to what Harry said about what if the coffee shop ONLY hired pretty girls to work there.
But we've had lots and lots of discussions about this before, debating about women using their sexuality to their advantage. I think the last time it was specifically about adult film stars, where sure there are some who are kind of forced into it, but there are also plenty of women in the adult industry who love what they do.
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The article makes it sound like regular old coffee places are at risk of being forced out of business. Personally, I kind of doubt that this would happen. From my time spent in coffee shops, I have noticed that most of them, especially the independent places, have very loyal customers. Dedicated coffee shop people also seem to value an atmosphere of intellectualism. If someone mentioned this idea in any of the places I have frequented, it would likely spark a debate about feminism and exploitation not unlike the one going on in this very thread. No fedora sporting philosophy major wants to drink espresso and read Derrida with pasty-clad boobs bouncing around. I can see these places competing with Dunkin' Donuts or McDonald's "McCafe," but not the places I know and love. I also suspect that Sexpresso places are booming due to novelty value, but they will probably go the way of Krispy Kreme here in the U.S. Oversaturation due to a surge of popularity, followed by mass closings once the novelty factor wears off.
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I've seen multiple independent coffee shops driven out of business by a chain place opening nearby. This happened a couple times in New Haven, with coffee shops that mostly service Yale students. The loyal customers who would never go to the competitor make up a smaller portion of their business than you might assume.
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Whereas I've seen the exact opposite phenomena here. There was an article about it in the local paper, there were four or five Starbucks closings in the area, but all the locally owned coffee shops are doing just fine. Apparently people frequent the locals will just get a regular coffee without the fancy sugar grossness in times of economic downturn instead of completely forgoing their morning coffee.
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*shrug* Every specific situation is different of course, I was mostly saying I would tend to believe the article.
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Oh no it would seem that I have been forced into reading the entire NN2S archive again. Damn you Jens, damn you.
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I'm pretty sure this is my favourite one (http://www.mitchclem.com/nothingnice/334/)
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again, i couldn't work in one of those stores because the idea frustrates and angers me and i don't like being hit on by strangers. but there are some ladies who really do like the attention and the tips and being hit on. solution: they work there and i don't. everyone is happy! if i were to say to one of those girls: "listen, you shouldn't work there, it's exploitation" that to me seems to be roughly the equivalent of "listen, you're obviously too naive and stupid to even realize you're being taken advantage of. do what i tell you to do because i know what's best for you better than you do." think about it, that's a terribly insulting thing to say to someone whom you don't know anything about. yes, admittedly it really weirds out and upsets me that any girl would enjoy working a job like this but i just have to accept the fact that not everyone is me. i'm sure most, if not all, of the girls working there know what they are getting into and are perfectly okay with what the job description entails.
to quote penny arcade - if you take a job eating bees, don't complain about bees stinging your mouth because eating bees is your job. so if you don't like being a half-naked barista, don't take a job working there. and if you don't like the business model, don't give them your money at all. pretty easy.
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i think maybe it started from the bottom, but the article mentioned that a few already-existing businesses converted to the same model in order to avoid losing business, and did so by hiring new staff or asking the already-existing staff to wear skimpy outfits. unfortunately that complicates the "if you don't like it, don't work there" ethos a bit because if you're a lady who doesn't want to get naked, and suddenly the coffee shop you work at is a half-naked one, you've lost your job there.
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Meh, hot baristas just end up making you hate life and drink yourself silly on New Years.
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there are probably times and places where i don't mind, but in general i don't really enjoy or welcome it as much as a lot of other people.
i understand that lots of people do like being hit on, and because of that the guy was probably just trying to be nice, so i handle it mainly by avoiding situations where that would happen (i.e. not working at a half-naked coffee stand) or politely asking them not to do it. it seems to work.
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i think maybe it started from the bottom, but the article mentioned that a few already-existing businesses converted to the same model in order to avoid losing business, and did so by hiring new staff or asking the already-existing staff to wear skimpy outfits. unfortunately that complicates the "if you don't like it, don't work there" ethos a bit because if you're a lady who doesn't want to get naked, and suddenly the coffee shop you work at is a half-naked one, you've lost your job there.
In this case, I wonder also about what happens to people who don't fit the "new model." If you were a man, for example, or if management just didn't think you were attractive enough. When restaurants start with an ogling women theme, it's my understanding that they often work in a modeling clause to the contract so that they can excuse only hiring hot women. Someone I met who had worked at Hooters at one point in her life said that this is how things worked there. But if you start as a normal coffee shop and then go half-naked, the overweight girl who makes a mean cup of coffee is a the ideal employee one day, and an "unattractive" liability the next.
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Where do you put the tip?
(just throwing that out there)
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Man, all I can think is, "This can not be very sanitary or safe." Being around espresso machines does make you very hot and sweaty. When you're taking out the trash, you get germs on your skin and from the looks of it, the sexpresso places don't seem to wear aprons. Spilling milk on clothed parts of your body still hurts a bit, I can't imagine spilling it on your stomach, thighs or any other tender part.
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This is weird because as an old guy, I'm kinda used to being more conservative than you hip young people. But here I'm thinking "So what's the problem?" while some people seem genuinely disturbed or even angered by it.
Basically, I'm not that picky about coffee-shop coffee. Most of it is pretty good, better than the instant crap I make at home, and generally worth a few bucks if I'm out and need a fix. There are always multiple shops to choose from, so given the choice, I'll stop at the one with the girls in bikinis. Why? Because if I'm going to have some coffee and have the choice between staring at the walls while I drink it or checking out girls in bikinis, I'm going with the second choice. The shop with the best atmosphere wins, simple as that. This is The American Way.
It did occur to me that the barristas could get more burns, and more severe burns, than if they were more fully covered. But as has been pointed out, they knew the risks when they accepted the job. There are job which some people will not do, while others are fine with it so they do it. This too is The American Way.
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RE: the original article
i think i know one of those girls in the picture. weird.
oh yeah, and...
purging the steam wand
hurr hurr hurr
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My first thought was that this would be the absolute worst coffee shop to take a lady you are interested in to.
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My first thoughts on this is the increase of people getting burned. From the women wearing next to nothing, which Lunchy pointed out so well, to the people that may not have the capacity to drink coffee and turn their heads as the half naked women they got the coffee from walk by.
Everyone's getting burned.
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luckily it's the Northwest so everyone is already freezing cold to begin with.
getting burned would be a relief.
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Why do people assume that girls that are scantily clad are embarrassed? A lot of girls are totally comfortable in wearing something they might wear at the beach. Not all girls make the drastic difference between,"Oh I am wearing this at the beach/attract a guy/it's hot" vs "Oh hey I like tips and this is a good way to do it without anyone being taken advantage of"
Really, unless a girl is forced into it(which in most first nation countries is a pretty big feat) the only people being taken advantage of are the people who would drink poor coffee(I am not sure of this, it might be good coffee!) to look at what you can see on a beach.
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I don't drink coffee much.
As for scantily clad ladies...
...well I don't get enough of those in my life. But I don't feel like I should have to pay for it. That includes buying products to be near such females. If other people want to be naked or buy stuff being sold by nakedness then that's fine. It's just not my scene I guess.
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Man, that's nothing. I recently went to a free viewing for a new exhibition at the National Gallery here in London and Corona had very generously provided a large quantity of free bear served by similarly scantily clad ladies. High-brow renaissance art and tits.
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I confess that I would find myself pretty embarrassed as a customer if women were scantily clad whilst serving coffee to me. Not because I find women in a state of undress to be unnatural or inappropriate, just that such a scenario paints me, the customer, into a specific corner which I have no desire to be in. For example, I tend to be nice and polite to pretty much everyone I ever meet, for whatever reason. However, if I was being served coffee by a lady who is scantily clad, people might assume that I was being nice to her because of her attire, rather than because I like other human beings. Thus, I'd sooner just not use such an establishment for fear of being a person who goes to a coffee store to ogle women in their underwear.
It's weird but I feel like as I get older, the more I appreciate privacy and discretion as being an integral part of sexuality.
I would feel pretty much the same way. I like the people who serve coffee at my local coffee shop, and I enjoy being friendly with them. I would be uncomfortable with the implication that the reason I was being friendly was because they weren't wearing much clothing. I don't think it does provide the best atmosphere. It adds a dimension to the atmosphere that I don't particularly want with my coffee.
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I agree with Tommy here, as well. I tend to be polite towards everyone, but I hate it when someone tries to get me to do something by being "charming", it feels like an insult to me. I think that would extend to the skimpily-clad attempt to get tips.
And, of course, the only time I go to a coffee shop, it is with some friends, all of which happen to be girls. Going there would be extremely awkward like that, especially as I don't trust my eyes to do what I tell them.
Fun fact: I checked five times to make sure that the word tips in the first paragraph wasn't tits.
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Man, that's nothing. I recently went to a free viewing for a new exhibition at the National Gallery here in London and Corona had very generously provided a large quantity of free bear served by similarly scantily clad ladies. High-brow renaissance art and tits.
Bears? Man, that must have been the manliest art exhibition
Man I am not even going to edit that post. Instead I am going to edit my memory of the event.
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Honestly, while I don't see anything wrong with starting/running your business this way, I really don't get the attraction. I think if I were to go there, I'd spend so much time trying not to be creepy and not ogling the ladies that it would defeat the purpose of having them in skimpy clothes.
Also, I drink tea. I make it myself.
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That is a really good term, Jens, what is that from?
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It's a bit misleading I think though, my experience with boy scouts says they are kind of nerdy and very sexually repressed kids who would LEAP at the chance to see some tits.
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There was this biker pub in our town, I went in there when was 16/17 because sunday was topless barmaid day and they were all 40/50 years old it was really weird, they had some young hot girls working behind the bar aswell but they chose to keep their tops on.
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Man, if I worked at a biker pub I would totally keep my top on at ALL times. Tips are not worth drunken gropes.
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It's a bit misleading I think though, my experience with boy scouts says they are kind of nerdy and very sexually repressed kids who would LEAP at the chance to see some tits.
They weren't clipped, though, were they?
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.
(did not realise you were quoting song lyrics, please ignore. delete this post if it is possible)
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It's a bit misleading I think though, my experience with boy scouts says they are kind of nerdy and very sexually repressed kids who would LEAP at the chance to see some tits.
This is Jens.
(Jens was a boy scout.)
(tee hee)
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Yeah, what Tommy said. I try to be aware of what kind of message I send with my actions, and I'm not sure I'd like what I'd be saying about myself if I went to such a place.
Plus, my life experience consists of Catholic private school and small town life, so even if I'm not really offended I still feel tremendously out of place in some situations because I don't really know how to fit in yet. For example, were I ever to go to a strip club, I think the biggest problem I'd have is being paralyzed by my ignorance of strip club etiquette, not being offended by tits.
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Man, the first two lines of that song never fail to make me laugh.
I was born wearing pants!
(be prepared!)
That's probably one of my favourite Albini lines.
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It's from one of his spoken word performances on CD, Think Tank. Apparently I got it wrong (he says "boy scout astronaut mode" which is almost as good) or it was from one of his other shows, but this was the one that sprung to mind. It's at about 1:55. (http://www.box.net/shared/a0yv9yf6df)
Oh my god, that was hilarious. Thank you.
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I remember being very puzzled as a result of being made to read, at the age of 10, Scouting for Boys - specifically, the chapter entitled "Self Abuse", which meant nothing whatsoever to me at that innocent age.
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Man I would probably not go to these places not out of feminist outrage but because they sound classless as hell.
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I just realized after reading Gilead's post that if they just changed the name to "Burlesque" coffee shops or something I would probably feel like the situation was a little less creepy. Hmm.
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Also with the girls I know it would suddenly turn in to a great date spot.
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Is the coffee actually any good?
Also if you think there isn't a difference between this and prostitution I suggest you go meet some prostitutes! Think of it as an exciting field trip.
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Who said there isn't a difference between prostitution and serving coffee in bikinis? I don't think I read anything like that in this thread. I mean, there have been talks regarding prostitution and stripping, but not saying anything like what you were saying. The closest is what Tania is saying on page one so I'm a little lost.
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I deleted my post where I was like "This is exactly the same thing as prostitution. I do not see any difference at all. Also, I'm pretty sure that's where Eliot Spitzer gets his coffee."
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man i never said there wasn't a difference, i just pointed out a few similarities and said i didn't think there was so massive a difference that they were two totally different things existing in two totally different realms. and that was prostitutes and strippers, not prostitutes and girls working in bikini coffee shops. also, talking rhetorically about just the act of stripping for money versus the act of having sex with someone for money, outside the social context where prostitution is obviously a thousand times worse because of stds and rape and pimps and abuse and all that stuff. so it was kind of a pointless tangent anyway.
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thanks for posting!
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Tania, to clarify I wasn't saying that you did. I am saying no one did. I don't think. I've been kind of paranoid over misreading things lately for some reason; I'm genuinely like "wait. what?"
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Again, why do people even care?
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sorry, this post will also seem like a bit of a tangent but i promise there's a point -
there are many different subtypes of feminism but two that are well known are liberal feminism and radical feminism. there is much more to both of them than the simple bits and pieces i am about to provide here but liberal feminism essentially focuses on eliminating institutionalized sexism through legal and political reform, operating under the assumption that women will seek and assert equality with men once they have the freedom to do so, whereas radical feminism says society and gender roles are all constructed in such a way that male supremacy and male interests are the norm and society basically needs to be reconstructed completely otherwise women are going to continue to be exploited because the patriarchal society they live in has socialized them to not even realize they are being exploited. so liberal feminism, essentially, says women have free will whereas radical feminism does not so much, due to the way it claims women are socialized.
so you can take that, and you can apply that to this situation and get really angry about it in all kinds of different ways depending on what perspective you take. do the girls working there have free will and the right to exercise it, or are they really being exploited and not realizing it because of the sexism that is just so inherent in every part of our society that we don't notice it anymore and think it's just the way things are? i am still not sure where i stand on this issue, i think i am maybe leaning more towards the liberal side but that maybe provides some explanation as to why some people may be upset by this even though the girls seem to be choosing to work there on their own, and also how you can still be a feminist and be okay with it but also be a feminist and not be okay with it. there are also many other subtypes besides those two.
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I have one problem with many (but not all) of the feminists (or women preaching feminist ideals) I have met:
They want to be treated equally until it doesn't benefit them.
Now I know this isn't true of all women who believe in those ideals, I've met quite a few really cool feminist people. I've just had a problem with what I imagine is a small group of them, even though it feels more like a vast majority.
That said, I probably wouldn't go to a coffee shop with scantily clad girls. First of all, I think they'd feel like I was constantly hitting on them even if I was just trying to make regular conversation, probably because if they are attractive they would get hit on a lot. Hell, I get the feeling the girls that work in the coffee shop at the hotel I'm at feel that way too. (I really do not want to do anything other than be friends with them. I swear.) Also, I do not drink coffee, tea, or any of the stuff you can buy in a coffee shop.
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So some people are selfish and want to be treated better than others? I mean, that is all totally true, but I am really tired of people using that as a stick to beat feminists down with. There are plenty of men who want to be treated equally until it doesn't benefit them also, you know!
On the whole liberal versus radical feminism thing, I don't think that radical feminism denies free will. I think that the same argument about socially constructed domination can also be applied to the acceptance of, say, the exploitation inherent in wage-slavery or whatever. Men are socialised by the patriarchal system also, albeit in different ways. I think that if you are aware of the potential for exploitation and yet work in a job like this, whatever exploitative nature is inherently sexist about it is sort of cancelled out? I'm not sure about that. Basically I believe that we are all socialised into particular roles by patriarchal society but that does not negate our ability to freely choose activities.
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I was going to type out a long post but then I realized it'd be stupid to do so.
I am summing up what I have said with this: I think the "feminists" I met were stupid because most of them were teenage girls that had a terrible sense of entitlement because they had rich families.
I don't mean to beat feminists down, but if there is going to be equality, there should be true equality. Not "well, its okay to do one thing, unless you do it to a woman, then it's more wrong"
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Didn't read the whole thread.
Just wanted to say, what happens if you spill it on yourself?
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You shoulda read the whole thread.
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Because now we're not going to tell you.
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Didn't read the whole thread.
Just wanted to say, what happens if you spill it on yourself?
Man, we're only on the third page. That's just over 100 posts. A lot of them aren't even that long. You can even skim some of them. Make the effort.
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I have one problem with many (but not all) of the feminists (or women preaching feminist ideals) I have met:
They want to be treated equally until it doesn't benefit them.
That is an annoying thing but it is not really a feminist thing. It is kind of like if I were to tell you that I am all for gay liberation provided that I don't see gay people in public because in that instance I would not really be all for gay liberation.
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yeah those are the people who do not really understand what feminism is. i still meet people who call themselves feminists because they hate men on account of something their ex-boyfriend did. and i guess i am a feminist, but it's the 21st century so lots of people in developed countries probably are in some way. however i do not even use the word anymore when i talk to people cos i feel like it will automatically label me as an uninformed man hater, so i just say something along the lines of "oh hay here is what i think about that" and hope that my point gets across better that way, without the word "feminist" in there making it seem angrier than it actually is. if sometime tells me they are a feminist, my first reaction is to cringe a little bit too even though everyone knows i am gaga about this stuff, because so often they end up being painfully uninformed about what it actually is. feminism is a bit of a dirty word now.
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I am sick and tired of making my family dinner every day of the week.
I find it sexist and demeaning.
Amidoinitrite?
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No
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nope
(edit- beat me to it. But I'm going to leave my post here anyway for emphasis)
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I think at this point, the term "feminist" not only has become a bit of a dirty word but also by virtue of being a thing and a movement for a while now it has had time to be beaten to death and connected to so many different things that its meaning is distorted and almost needs to be redefined and clarified every time you use it in a sentence.. I think it'd be most useful if it were used to refer to someone who actually did things to further the fabled cause i.e. feminist social activists, and not just anyone who thinks "Yeah, women are pretty okay, they should be treated properly."
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So basically there are coffee shops with barristas in bikinis, but guys who are normally nice to females anyway don't want to go there because they don't want the barristas in bikinis to think they're hitting on them, or because they don't want to be seen there and have people think that that they're the type of guy who'd go to a coffee shop with barristas in bikinis? And it's embarrassing for the customer?
This is more fucked up than I thought. We've reached the point where servers in bikinis are okay, but guys are too afraid to go there because they don't want to be thought a pervert. Fuck that. I'd still go, because if the girls can't tell the difference between someone being polite and someone hitting on them, that's their problem not mine. And I don't care if someone sees me in there and thinks I'm the type of guy who'd go there, because I am there, so apparently I am that type of guy. Again, all other things being equal, I'll take the shop with the bikini girls over the boring one playing playing bad music. I'll be nice to them and try not to stare, I'll drink my coffee, then I'll leave. Life is too goddamned short to worry so much about what other people think.
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when, if ever, do you think banks are going pick up on this trend?
there are some serious babes at my bank.
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I have to agree that feminist has gained a lot of distorted and, mostly ,negative connotations. I tend to refer to things in terms of Women's Rights for that very reason.
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sometimes i substitute "egalitarianism" but then people get just as angry at me and call me pretentious for using a word with eight syllables. now i mostly just tell people i have some opinions.
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So basically there are coffee shops with barristas in bikinis, but guys who are normally nice to females anyway don't want to go there because they don't want the barristas in bikinis to think they're hitting on them, or because they don't want to be seen there and have people think that that they're the type of guy who'd go to a coffee shop with barristas in bikinis? And it's embarrassing for the customer?
This is more fucked up than I thought. We've reached the point where servers in bikinis are okay, but guys are too afraid to go there because they don't want to be thought a pervert. Fuck that. I'd still go, because if the girls can't tell the difference between someone being polite and someone hitting on them, that's their problem not mine. And I don't care if someone sees me in there and thinks I'm the type of guy who'd go there, because I am there, so apparently I am that type of guy. Again, all other things being equal, I'll take the shop with the bikini girls over the boring one playing playing bad music. I'll be nice to them and try not to stare, I'll drink my coffee, then I'll leave. Life is too goddamned short to worry so much about what other people think.
The social implications of having my coffee served to me by women in their underwear is not something I enjoy. It smacks of female subservience and implies that I'm primarily motivated to interact with women because of sex. Perhaps I think too well of myself, but I tend to think that I enjoy interacting with women because they're human beings and I can have a personal connection with them. The underwear, in this case, reduces the quality of the interaction, or has the potential to. I'm already in a dominant role as a customer. Adding to this that I'm fully dressed, while they're mostly naked, and mostly naked ostensibly for my pleasure creates an atmosphere that I dislike because it places emphasis on the disparity between my power in the interaction and her's.
It also implies that I'm there for something besides coffee. It objectifies us, as customers, as much as it does the women involved. We become nothing more than our sex drives and basic instincts, ready to throw our money at the sexiest girl. I don't like that implication. I prefer to be treated as a grownup customer, capable of enjoying my coffee without sex being brought up. Put another way, when I buy coffee, I am doing it because I like coffee. Sex, or the implied promise of possible sex, is not required to enhance my enjoyment of the experience of buying coffee and I resent the implication that it is. I like coffee. I like quiet little coffee bars with friendly baristas who make the coffee well and leave a newspaper out for me to read. These are elements of atmosphere that I like and that are a part of going out for coffee. Adding sex to that atmosphere isn't something I have a use for. It doesn't add anything I want added. We are bombarded with sexualized images of women in much of our daily lives, and there are times when I enjoy such images. Coffee simply is not one of those times for me.
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Feminism is great, and it's done some very good things for society as a whole. Unfortunately, it's become very extreme and perverted on the fringes, and, like so many other social movements, gets judged by its extremes.
You know, stuff like this. (http://users.livejournal.com/_allecto_/34718.html)
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Yeah, I've felt like that too Benji. I believe I brought it up once in the blog thread; one night while watching Futurama on comedy central I saw a TON of Girls Gone Wild ads get played. Seriously, I think it was like two or three per commercial break. I found it a bit worrying that my demographic is assumed to enjoy getting a bunch of young women drunk and encourage them to flash cameras, particularly since the GGW company was once found guilty of failing to properly verify the age of the girls in the videos. When you put together negligence plus the fact that alcohol is clearly involved in their videos, it definitely raises some questions about consent. It makes me feel sort of guilty by association.
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now i mostly just tell people i have some opinions.
But this would piss people off because after you say that they would wait a beat and then be like "AAAAAND those opinions are?"
you can't win
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Feminism is great, and it's done some very good things for society as a whole. Unfortunately, it's become very extreme and perverted on the fringes, and, like so many other social movements, gets judged by its extremes.
You know, stuff like this. (http://users.livejournal.com/_allecto_/34718.html)
This may be a little off topic but after reading that, and some of the responses to peoples comments, that person inspires nothing but rage.
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sometimes i substitute "egalitarianism" but then people get just as angry at me and call me pretentious for using a word with eight syllables.
Do it anyway, as often as you can. See if you can make their head go scanners. Why the hell should you dumb down your language simply because some people are afraid of words they can't spell without moving their lips?
Orbert, I wouldn't go because it would make me uncomfortable, and because it seems like they would be trying to bribe me with pretty girls, something I don't appreciate. If you are going to bribe me, bribe me with good coffee, low prices, or comfortable chairs (obviously the last one won't happen in a drive-through joint).
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This morning while walking to the train I saw an empty McCafe cup lying on the ground next to the sidewalk. It was depressing on several levels.
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Anyone seen Idiocracy? This is the next step toward that future.
Man that movie was hilariously depressing, if possible.
Still, the competition is cutthroat
I never thought I'd hear that concerning the Barista industry... Oh those twisted baristas.
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The social implications of having my coffee served to me by women in their underwear is not something I enjoy. It smacks of female subservience and implies that I'm primarily motivated to interact with women because of sex.
That's your hangup, not the hangup of the women working there or the people who buy coffee there. I've been to bars where shirtless muscle men make cocktails, and I don't particularly like that idea anymore than I like having a set of tits thrust at me early in the morning when I am just trying to get a cup of coffee, but these women choose to work there and make a fuckload of money exploiting the male sex drive. In fact I think this is less demeaning than the average strip club because its unlikely most of these girls are strung out on meth and pills just to come into work in the morning.
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This may be a little off topic but after reading that, and some of the responses to peoples comments, that person inspires nothing but rage.
Her best line from the comments:
I don't hate your sex, I hate your gender. If you don't understand what I mean by that then go and do your feminist homework before attempting to take up space on my blog.
Someone please explain to me what this means. I'm very curious!
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That is ridiculous. I'm pretty sure what she is referring to is that technically your 'sex' is only related to whether you produce sperm or ova, and the specific body parts that do that, whereas 'gender' includes all the rest of the connotations that go with being a male or female.
To actually differentiate between the two (in a non scientific environment) is probably one of the most anal things I have ever seen.
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That's your hangup, not the hangup of the women working there or the people who buy coffee there. I've been to bars where shirtless muscle men make cocktails, and I don't particularly like that idea anymore than I like having a set of tits thrust at me early in the morning when I am just trying to get a cup of coffee, but these women choose to work there and make a fuckload of money exploiting the male sex drive. In fact I think this is less demeaning than the average strip club because its unlikely most of these girls are strung out on meth and pills just to come into work in the morning.
I never said it was damaging, I just said I don't think I would shop there. I don't have a problem with the women who work at this coffee shop, nor do I have a problem with it's patrons. I also don't have a problem with Hooters, or with strip clubs for that matter. I just don't particularly want to go there, and I reject the Orbert's assertion that me stating a preference for not going to the sexy coffee shop is somehow irrational. I'm making a fully rational choice. I know what I want with my coffee, and half naked women aren't on that list. These women can choose to work there, and Orbert can choose to buy coffee there. I will choose to buy mine elsewhere.
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sex refers to biological characteristics while gender refers to the socialization a person undergoes depending on their sex. gender roles, pretty much.
an example is a person transitioning from male to female. their (original) sex is male but their gender is female because they identify as one.
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also brett i am sorry but arguing that something is okay because there are worse things is kind of a bullshit argument imo. drug-addicted strippers might be worse than scantily-clad baristas but that's irrelevant because we're not talking about drug-addicted strippers, we're talking about scantily-clad baristas. for every thing you can always find a worse thing and if that's how everyone made their points nothing would ever be accomplished.
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Sweet! As I suspected, her making that distinction was completely irrelevant; either way, she was saying "I hate you."
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Still, no one has clearly explained why this is "bad" or somehow repugnant.
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Does anyone think that? I don't think anyone has said that, so I guess nobody here thinks that.
Oh come on, by just the third post of this thread brittanymarie described the concept as disgusting.
Although I can see why you'd want to brush off red lion's question. Given that the question blatantly ignores the previous three pages of people explaining their various points of view, it certainly seems like just straight-up trolling.
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benji gave an excellent answer to that question and has been awesome at this thread in general so if you don't want to go through 3.5 pages of text, read his posts at least.
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Apparently I'm not very good at explaining my own views. When I said "I find it disgusting" it is in the way that like when you go into a restaurant and the vinyl seats are all ripped up so that yellow foam stuff is sticking out and it's kind of disgusting. Though I did indeed kind of change my mind, the picture I had in my mind was like the Coffee on Legs video that I think ViolentDove posted, not just girls in bikinis.
In fact, if you read the other posts I'd made I'm actually not that sure apparently where I stand on the issue. I was being serious when I said I'd find it less creepy if it was just called burlesque. Nothing would change, just my own mental image of what's going on.
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also brett i am sorry but arguing that something is okay because there are worse things is kind of a bullshit argument imo. drug-addicted strippers might be worse than scantily-clad baristas but that's irrelevant because we're not talking about drug-addicted strippers, we're talking about scantily-clad baristas. for every thing you can always find a worse thing and if that's how everyone made their points nothing would ever be accomplished.
Thats not my argument at all! That is a completely false representation of my argument. I am saying these women made a choice and are exploiting the men who go there to buy coffee, offering a similar example where women can be doing something akin to this but they have been coerced into it by pretty shady means. There are ways women can get their kit off that are exploitative and those that aren't! I suppose you could argue that the money driven capitalist phallocentric society we live in coerces these women to serve coffee in bikinis, but that basically means we are all whores and is pretty meritless in the context of this conversation
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I've decided I might actually go to one of these places once, but only to laugh my ass off if one of the girls burned herself. It's her choice to work there, but I have every right to think she's a bit skanky and not respect her choice of employment whatsoever.
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I go to mines to laugh at the miners when the roof collapses.
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I honestly do not care why she took the job. Saying 'ohhh she might be really down on her luck and helping her little baby cousin through school and studying to be a pro bono lawyer!" is like excusing all morbidly obese people because they might have a gland problem. Yeah it's possible, but not likely.
I know I'm going to come off bitchy here, but seriously if you take a job where you fling your tits around burning hot steam and liquids, I don't think you're too intelligent.
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Even so, there's a difference between not feeling much sympathy for someone when they get injured when they knew the risks, and the kind of schadenfreude you seem to be (I presume hypothetically) anticipating.
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I really would be genuinely entertained. There is a difference between the miner situation spluff mentioned, where it is an inherently dangerous job, and this one, where you take what should be a regular retail job and knowingly turn it into one where you risk huge torso burns.
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maiada and lunchy said in this thread they would work here, and maybe they were joking but regardless, i have met maiada and known lunchy on this forum long enough to remain confident that they are both very cool intelligent people. their choice of hypothetical employment doesn't suddenly negate all that. yeah, if they chose to work there i'd honestly probably think "oh i don't really get why you would do that" but that's my criticism of the job description, not them. knowing that, do you still feel comfortable assuming everyone working at one of these coffee shops is a moron?
there are a lot of different reasons why people choose to do what they do. sometimes people can't find another job, and sometimes people are putting themselves through school and could really use the $100 in tips every day, and sometimes they are 20-something and very attractive and it is legitimately hard for them to find jobs that don't involve being a 20-something attractive girl cos other people don't take them seriously, and sometimes they want to work there cos they already know they are so smart and awesome that it doesn't matter what anyone thinks of them.
basically i think it is a good habit to not judge people before you know them.
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Benji is a man who is making a lot of sense.
Are you kidding? I simply said that all other things being equal, I'd rather drink coffee while admiring babes in bikinis than drink coffee while staring at the walls. Benji replied with some essay about the social implications of women serving men while underdressed, power disparities, sex or the implied promise of possible sex, and a bunch of other shit that was nowhere in my post.
I reject the Orbert's assertion that me stating a preference for not going to the sexy coffee shop is somehow irrational. I'm making a fully rational choice.
I didn't say your preference is irrational. I said that it's pretty fucked up that women are choosing to serve coffee while underdressed, and somehow it's the guys who are embarrased to go there because they imagine all kinds of other implications and connotations attached to it. If you don't want to go there because you imagine that it places you in a position of power over the server, or somehow objectifies you the customer, or that there's implied possible sex and that bothers you, fine. But you're making it a lot more complicated than it needs to be.
A woman in a bikini on the beach is not promising you sex, and she is not implying possible sex. Why is she somehow doing that if she's at work?
A woman serving you coffee that you have paid for is not exercising power over you, and she is not objectifying you. She is conducting a business transaction. This is not affected by what she's wearing.
It is entirely possible to have a polite conversation with someone less than fully dressed. I have no idea why people would think otherwise. If you cannot do it because you're thinking about implied possible sex or power disparities or female subservience... well, I guess that would be a problem.
Stating a preference for not going there is not irrational, and I never said it was, but your justification for it sure as hell is. A bikini does not imply sex, and serving coffee is a business transaction, not some kind of symbolic power thing.
On a lighter note: Hey, I'm "the Orbert"!
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sometimes i substitute "egalitarianism"
This is without doubt the most important word I've ever learnt, and I think it's your duty to go forth and teach people not only what it means, but also how to spell it and how to say it. And then how to embrace it as their life's goal.
Seriously, though, I think a lot of people call themselves feminists when in fact they are indeed talking about egalitarianism and for all the reasons that have already been discussed they don't get taken seriously, or they get taken too seriously, because of the connotations of feminism.
In response to Orbert's most recent post, I'm not sure where I stand on this issue really but I have to say that someone who makes the business decision to go from staff uniforms, which are usually a blouse/shirt and trousers/skirt, to a bikini, is probably only thinking about sex and attractiveness. It isn't, as discussed, because it will be safer for the staff or because it will enhance their ability to make coffee. There isn't really any other reason to bring this in as a dress code other than the fact that people will relate it to sex, or at least sexiness. It's like trying to argue that erotica has nothing to do with sex because it's literature. Just because it isn't as overt and explicit doesn't mean it isn't intended to create connotations and imply connections.
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In response to Orbert's most recent post, I'm not sure where I stand on this issue really but I have to say that someone who makes the business decision to go from staff uniforms, which are usually a blouse/shirt and trousers/skirt, to a bikini, is probably only thinking about sex and attractiveness. It isn't, as discussed, because it will be safer for the staff or because it will enhance their ability to make coffee. There isn't really any other reason to bring this in as a dress code other than the fact that people will relate it to sex, or at least sexiness. It's like trying to argue that erotica has nothing to do with sex because it's literature. Just because it isn't as overt and explicit doesn't mean it isn't intended to create connotations and imply connections.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I would say. A woman on a beach isn't usually trying to sell me anything. She's just hanging out on the beach. These baristas are being told to wear bikinis because it will, hypothetically, convince me to buy coffee and leave a big tip. I find attempts to manipulate me based on sex somewhat distasteful. I can, and have, gone in to detail about some of the dimensions of why I find it distasteful, but it's really nothing more then that. If that's me making things too complicated, so be it, but I really don't think it's that complex.
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Why doesn't this thread have more pictures of hella rude titties in it, is what I want to know.
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Stating a preference for not going there is not irrational, and I never said it was, but your justification for it sure as hell is. A bikini does not imply sex, and serving coffee is a business transaction, not some kind of symbolic power thing.
a bikini on its own might not imply sex or subservience, and neither might a barista serving a customer, but an establishment in which a customer base comprised primarily of men is being served exclusively by very attractive half-naked females sure could. how is that irrational? you don't have agree with me that it's creepy, but it can't be that hard to at least understand what that could symbolize and why it would be disconcerting to some.
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A woman in a bikini on the beach is not promising you sex, and she is not implying possible sex. Why is she somehow doing that if she's at work?
It's a context thing, due to societal norms, like I mentioned in my post before. And if you feel that societal norms are a dumb reason, then I humbly disagree, because I think societal norms are a pretty important thing for maintaining cohesive communities.
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Depends on the society and on the norms in question.
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what are you talking about, all societies are exactly the same
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Social norms have done an awful lot for us, when you think about it. I mean, it's unfortunate when people get out of hand just because someone else doesn't conform, but having some common customs and behaviors allows us to communicate more effectively and quickly ascertain what we can expect out of a situation. Without some base commonalities we'd be back in the stone age guessing whether that group of people across the river intends to bash our heads in or not instead of waving hello and talking about the weather.