THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)
Fun Stuff => CLIKC => Topic started by: KvP on 07 Feb 2010, 23:27
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Heavy Rain. It's coming out for the PS3 in the very near future (this week I think?) and if it weren't for the fact that I know literally no one with a PS3, I'd play it. Do any of y'all have PS3's? Anybody gonna play it?
Here's a 6 minute spoiler-y sequence featuring very NSFW nudity, and some scares (some of which come a bit cheap). (http://www.jeuxvideo.com/extraits-videos-jeux/0000/00004460/heavy-rain-une-douche-et-au-lit-hd.htm) Basically it looks like Indigo Prophecy + A facelift - all the crazy shit (one hopes). A shame I won't be able to play it.
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I just wish... that it was more interactive? I get that the story is dynamic based on how much you fuck up the QTEs, but they're still QTEs... for the whole game. On top of that, David Cage sounds like the smuggest fucking douche on the planet from all the interviews I've read. I guess I'm glad that somebody is trying to push the limits of believable human interaction in games, I just have no real interest in Heavy Rain as a video game.
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This adds to the still very small list of why one should own a PS3. Seriously, FF XIII and Uncharted?
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There is much, much more than a small list of why you should own a PS3. But seriously, that's a whole other argument.
They released a game that allows you to unlock a demo for this, I'd link it but just go to like Kotaku or Destructoid and they'll give you the answers as well. I spent a whole day trying to get to the site because the thing was down the whole time. People just kept swarming the site. After sleeping I got it, got myself a European PSN and downloaded the demo.
Holy. Fucking. Shit. "Oh, it's just a bunch of Quick Time Events, nothing special." No. No. It is much better than that. They basically give you a tutorial, an interview with a woman followed by a fight scene and an investigation. The tutorial is what you expect. But it's the interview and fight that blew me away. Have you ever had a fight scene in a game that blew you away? That made you absolutely terrified about the outcome? My adrenalin was pumping so hard during this fight. It was visceral and brutal and the "quick-time events" is so much more involved than simply smashing Square, or a combination of Square and Triangle.
The investigation was set in this area and you put on these sort of goggles that help you identify things. You go straight up to a dead body and talk to the guy in charge for a while, he doesn't really like you. And then you investigate. There are about 10-13 things that you can investigate and I think 3 or 4 of them are useless to you, police contaminating the crime scene, or something unrelated. But then there are some really cool things.
Storm Rider, do you have a PS3? Cause you should really then get a hold of this demo because it completely changed how I felt about it, all my fears were just completely wiped out from playing it.
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I don't. I plan to buy one eventually, but I'm unemployed right now and I can't really afford to buy a whole new platform at the moment.
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That's strange that the demo code worked for you guys: it didn't work for me.
Is there a special trick to enter it on the PlayStation site?
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You have to create a European PSN account. So when you sign up for a PSN account on your computer, simply put your Country as the UK, fill it out. Then you go onto your PS3, sign into the new Euro account and redeem the code through there.
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There is much, much more than a small list of why you should own a PS3. But seriously, that's a whole other argument.
Really? I bought one and then ended up turning around and selling it after I had realized I had just paid several hundred dollars to play Ratchet and Clank. Uncharted just wasn't doing it for me, and I'm on the record as an MGS and FF hater.
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this and the last guardian are why i want a ps3
The Last Guardian is the reason I chose the PS3. There were slight considerations for God of War and the RROD, but it was mostly for Trico.
->Alex C
Valkyria Chronicles, inFamous, Killzone 2, God Of War, upgradeable HD space that doesn't cost you a million bones, the Pixeljunk Series, Flower. These are all just offhand, I personally like the exclusives of the PS3 more than I like the ones for the 360. Fable and GoW are pretty cool and some of the downloadable games are amazing....but enough to say that it's not worth owning a PS3? Not a chance. Honestly though, the only reason I feel jealous of 360 owners is when I look at my dualshocks and remember how comfy and snug that 360 controller felt in my hand.
I have the special edition pre-ordered from Europe...I was really bummed when they decided not to release it in North America. I wonder how long it will take for it to get to me.
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Yeah, I guess I'm just not interested in any of those games, at least not interested enough to have a 3rd console around. It'd be nice to have Wipeout HD again though.
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I was kind of interested in this game until I saw it was PS3 exclusive, then I just thought it was a shame. There's not really enough PS3-only stuff to justify me buying one.
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This game fucking roooooocks guys.
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how many hours of play time do you think is in it? i want to get it, i loved the demo, but some reviews are saying it's about 8 hours in length, and i can't justify dropping $60 on something that will last me a weekend...
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Everything I've heard is 8 - 12 hours
But I think that discounts multiple playthroughs to see what happens if you do x instead of Y
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Sony is reportedly very pleased with sales thus far, especially in terms of pre-orders.
Liking Quantic Dream as much as I do, this is good news. I was concerned the sales might be pour.
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I haven't played it (yet?) but it seems too good for its own good.
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I was concerned the sales might be pour.
christ
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hey man don't dampen the mood.
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My pre-order edition shipped from Europe 4 days ago and I have been waiting at my doorstep every day since. I live in Canada so I assume that it's going to take another week at least to get here. I am however, so freaking impatient. The guy from Sony saying that it's selling well can go away somewhere else, it hasn't even been a month yet. I want to know how well it's doing in a month or so, not like...4 days.
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I'm usually never on here, but I have to break my silence to let people know how much I hate this game.
I hate this game. I hate the idea that anyone liked this game. I hate hate hate HATED this fucking game.
I hate the so called gameplay and it's assumption that moving a stick or just pressing a button at the right time constitutes a game.
I hate the voice actors and their inability to pronounce the word "Origami"
I hate the plot and the massive FUCK plot hole that it leaves wide open that a third grader would be able to spot.
I hate the controls and the idea that moving with R2 was considered to be a good idea.
I hate Heavy Rain.
I banked on the hopes that Heavy Rain would be a good game. Most critics hold Heavy Rain to a high standard with most of the scores being a 8.5 to 9.5. That is good considering most games I play that is scored that high I consider to be good games. They missed the mark on this one in the worst kind of way.
Heavy Rain stars four main characters that you play. Ethan, Madison, Scott and Jayden all of which are stuck together in this plot to find the Origami killer before he lets Ethan's young son Shaun die. Now, let's get this out of the way. The plot is tired, but the way they tell it is pretty good. Up until the point where you actually find out who the Origami killer is in which case the plot doesn't hold itself up anymore and you begin to hate every aspect of it.
Now, let's tackle the gameplay first. This is not a video game. Fuck you, this is not a video game. This is an interactive movie in every way. Here is why it is NOT a video game. Heavy Rain has you move your character around, but that is pretty much all the control you have over their actions. Anything else is you just reacting to something that is happening to your character and the plot develops around that. This would be, I guess, okay if the plot didn't suck. Yet, this still leaves out the fact that this game is very linear and only requires you to react when you want to or if required. In theory you could not touch the controller at all (except when you need to walk) and the game will play out.
That is fucking retarded. This is why it is an interactive movie and not a video game. In which case movies usually cost $25 and I want a $35 refund.
Someone tried to tell me this was an Adventure game, but NO it is not. An adventure game can have the same elements as Heavy Rain, but you are usually more involved. You have an item list or you solve puzzles or both. In Heavy Rain you do no such thing. You only do what the game allows you to do which seriously limits the gameplay elements and my patience.
Also, whoever thought moving around using R2 needs to be shot between the eyes. That is NOT very fun. They could have just replaced all the motions required for action with the left analog stick rather than have me use both. The idea that I need to use to the left one to move my head is just stupid and unnecessary. It requires more work and leaves for clunky gameplay.
To finish with this point; any emotion of excitement I had with this game wasn't a result of actual gameplay, but rather a emotion I was feeling as if I was watching a movie. There is one scene in the game where Scott comes gunning for an old billionaire. You, of course, press the right buttons to trigger your gun, but that wasn't really gameplay. It felt more like I was just interacting with a movie. It was cool, but not a game.
Now, the plot.
It's stupid.
SPOILER ALERT!
Scott is the Origami killer. The funny thing is that there is not hint that he may be the killer. Instead we are left with a gaping plot hole to explain WHY he is the killer.
First, why would Scott want to investigate himself? He had every reason to cover up his crimes in the end and yet he went through all the trouble to bring someone along with him.
Second, you have control of Scott most of the time when you play him. There is an instance where Scott kills a friend of his to cover his tracks. However, you have complete control of Scott when the murder happens and do not see him do it. However, later on it just decides to let you know that Scott DID kill him.
HOW THE FUCK AND WHEN THE FUCK DID THIS HAPPEN!?
Lastly, in terms of narrative this really sucks. Because we are all in a first person narrative. We are in the minds of the characters and we know everything they are thinking. Therefore if we know everything Scott is thinking then we should figure out that he is the FUCKING KILLER! In fact you press L2 to go into their mind to figure out what they are thinking. Oh wait a second, where is the thought where he goes, "I'm the killer by the way. You just wasted $60. Go jerk off now and cry bitches cause these French developers are making bank off of your hard earned money."
Also, one of your characters Ethan, has blackouts and it is revealed that he may possibly be the Origami killer. However, they don't bother to explain where he is during those blackouts and the possibility fizzles out for a new one involving Scott. Yet, they still don't bother to explain where Ethan is during the blackouts and why he is holding an Origami figure. This is a major plot element and they essentially throw it away.
Also, who the fuck picked these voice actors? The child actors suck...I mean horribly. It seems like someone told them, "Read this before you can watch TV." The adult actors aren't any better. For example, Jayden, is a British man really trying hard to sound American. So when he talks it sounds distant and almost Bostonian, but not quite American. Also, everyone pronounces Origami as Oryigaymi and I'm pretty sure if this game took place in Boston that everyone would pronounce words weird. This, however, seems to be the only word that people can't seem to pronounce right and it's kind of annoying.
The ending kind of fizzles out and becomes something boring and uneventful. After all that work and going through the 10 hour game you get an ending that isn't even worth your time.
So in the end...I wouldn't waste my time with this game.
I hated this so much that I'm sending it to a friend who lives in New Hampshire and overnight package with the game. Just so he can know how bad this game is.
I also just don't want it in my house anymore. I hate it that much.
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um, the first two minutes of that video are a series of QTEs for some chick taking a shower and then going to the bathroom. Setting aside for a moment the fact that gamers have hated QTEs since Dragon's Lair hit the arcades nearly 30 years ago, how is guiding someone through using the bathroom in any way compelling gameplay?
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That isn't quite true. What about RE4 and God o' War? People loved those for the most part.
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Both of those games were highly polished flagship titles that used other mechanics for their central game play. I'd also argue that in both cases the quick time events were easily the worst parts of the game. I genuinely believe that QTEs have gotten this far largely by being strongly associated with games that would have been considered good regardless of their inclusion.
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RE4 would have been incredibly stiff without it.
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um, the first two minutes of that video are a series of QTEs for some chick taking a shower and then going to the bathroom. Setting aside for a moment the fact that gamers have hated QTEs since Dragon's Lair hit the arcades nearly 30 years ago, how is guiding someone through using the bathroom in any way compelling gameplay?
Any gamer who dismisses QTEs is full of shit, real talk. It's gaming distilled into its most basic constituent parts - pressing the right button at the right time. Quantic Dream just has the decency not to delude gamers into thinking they have control over a character, which has its own advantages, namely an approach to animation that doesn't look ridiculous (or at least, looks less ridiculous than usual). On the other end of the spectrum, the few games that have attempted to better approximate player input into gameplay (most of them on the Wii) have been largely awful. There's no better way to pull off a "cinematic game" than Quantic Dream's approach.
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Does it matter that it still sucks?
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I'd play the fuck outta this game if it were on the pc
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Any gamer who dismisses QTEs is full of shit, real talk.
I'd say I don't dismiss QTEs so much as I dismiss the context many use them in. Most games that do quick time events badly fail at it because they have little regard for the context. For example, I was fine with the QTEs in GOW1. But when they sprang 'em on you at the end in the middle of a pseudo cinema, I found it annoying and not much of a "bonus." Still wasn't a bad game though, which is why I was never really down on QTEs as many people are.
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There's no better way to pull off a "cinematic game" than Quantic Dream's approach.
Which just calls into question the advisability of doing an overly cinematic game.
Well actually there's a good reason for companies to keep making really pretty looking games, but that reason has nothing to do with how good they are as games. Really pretty looking games sell well, so companies keep making them. But they're boring as games; whatever interest they have is due to the novelty of their lush graphics (witness the incredible success of Myst, an incredibly boring game) or the fact that you're basically watching a movie.
Saying "gaming boils down to pressing the right button at the right time" is technically correct I suppose, but that is as reductionist as a statement can get. There's a big difference between pressing a random button at random intervals and, say, analyzing the layout of dozens of buildings and troops on a big map before choosing one of a dozen different things to build or destinations to target (ie. an RTS game.)
The awfulness of cinematic games with QTEs has been established for almost my entire life; refer to number 29 on this list:
http://www.develop-online.net/features/699/50-games-every-developer-should-play
And actually, thinking about that gameplay video it occurs to me this game might even have the worst kind of QTEs, instant death. That was truly the bane of Dragon's Lair, the fact that you would constantly die due to missing randomly timed button presses and have to start over with the whole tedious sequence. The gameplay video you posted included several points where the character narrowly avoids getting knifed in the chest; does that mean if you missed the button press you'd be dead and have to repeat the sequence? god I hope not
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Nay, the death of a particular character does not stop the story. I suppose if all 4 controllable characters die that's the end of the game, but the game will play out differently based on whether or not you can pull through with the characters.
I suppose it comes down to what it is you want from your games. Heavy Rain is appealing to those for whom narrative virtues trump gameplay virtues. The whole point of Heavy Rain is the narrative, and choice / consequence variation. That strategy games aren't part of the "the right button at the right time" lineage (and they certainly aren't, I wouldn't dispute that) is beside the point, as the sequence in question doesn't really lend itself to RTS gameplay. It lends itself to fighter gameplay, which has more or less always been "the right button at the right time". How else would you have set up that particular in-game sequence? Include traditional "beat-em-up" gameplay? That wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, as the whole point of the sequence is that the character is supposed to be relatively helpless and only surviving by the skin of her teeth. Gamers are going to be at least competent, most will probably be supremely competent, and thus trying to set up a real-time fighting element to the game will either be prohibitively difficult, or so easy that it will serve to create an even greater disconnect between the character and the player than you would normally find (most games get around this problem by having the main character lack any sort of weakness or fault). Plus it wouldn't be a fraction as interesting, visually. Quantic Dream has absolute control over the game, which is something that you have to accept going into it if you're going to enjoy it.
Ultimately, anybody who can make something like the first few hours of Fahrenheit deserves to be heeded. The problem with that game was that it started off as an experience that was literally unparalleled in gaming before it devolved into a super-condensed mythological clusterfuck. Everything that I've heard suggests that Heavy Rain is the game Fahrenheit should have been. I could give a fuck that it's not Madden or whatever.
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Yeah, I can agree with that to an extent. The difference between scary and mundane is often a matter of difficulty and how capable you can be with their character. I've made the Ninja Gaiden vs. Silent Hill analogy before on this forum. The critters that harrass James Sunderland aren't necessarily all that more intimidating than some of the shit Ryu Hayabusa faces, but in the latter game you always have a reasonable expectation of waltzing up to the offending baddie and ruining their shit.
That said, I never liked Silent Hill games. I'm not htat into theatrics.
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I remember back when I bought my Gamecube I got a demo disc that had a couple of games on it. Nothing really that great, a Sonic Game among others. Except for one. Indigo Prophecy (or as it may be more commonly known Fahrenheit). Man that demo was a mindfuck. I absolutely loved it. All I remember from it was having to clean up a murder that you committed without knowing inside the bathroom of a diner and then trying to get out without being caught. There were so many different pathways to take in that short ten minute demo. Even though I never actually played the full game and I hear the latter half was pretty shady I still look for it whenever I'm at my local game store in the bargain bins.
I am definitely going to get this game.
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You might not have been able to find it because it's not out for the Gamecube!
If you've got a 360 and a Live connection you can buy it for download.
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Nay, the death of a particular character does not stop the story. I suppose if all 4 controllable characters die that's the end of the game, but the game will play out differently based on whether or not you can pull through with the characters.
I suppose it comes down to what it is you want from your games. Heavy Rain is appealing to those for whom narrative virtues trump gameplay virtues. The whole point of Heavy Rain is the narrative, and choice / consequence variation. That strategy games aren't part of the "the right button at the right time" lineage (and they certainly aren't, I wouldn't dispute that) is beside the point, as the sequence in question doesn't really lend itself to RTS gameplay. It lends itself to fighter gameplay, which has more or less always been "the right button at the right time". How else would you have set up that particular in-game sequence? Include traditional "beat-em-up" gameplay? That wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, as the whole point of the sequence is that the character is supposed to be relatively helpless and only surviving by the skin of her teeth. Gamers are going to be at least competent, most will probably be supremely competent, and thus trying to set up a real-time fighting element to the game will either be prohibitively difficult, or so easy that it will serve to create an even greater disconnect between the character and the player than you would normally find (most games get around this problem by having the main character lack any sort of weakness or fault). Plus it wouldn't be a fraction as interesting, visually. Quantic Dream has absolute control over the game, which is something that you have to accept going into it if you're going to enjoy it.
Ultimately, anybody who can make something like the first few hours of Fahrenheit deserves to be heeded. The problem with that game was that it started off as an experience that was literally unparalleled in gaming before it devolved into a super-condensed mythological clusterfuck. Everything that I've heard suggests that Heavy Rain is the game Fahrenheit should have been. I could give a fuck that it's not Madden or whatever.
My problem with Fahrenheit (other than the clusterfuck that was the plot) was the same problem I had with Heavy Rain. I don't consider either games to be really "games". Instead I find them to be overplayed cinematic games where they focus more on the plot and less on gameplay elements.
If that's what you want to fucking call them.
The fact that a narrative virtue trumps the gameplay virtue to most games explains a lot why a lot of games out there are really popular. A great example would be Mass Effect 2. Great plot, but the action gets fairly repetitive after a while. Another would be Final Fantasy VII. Some people found the plot to be great (I didn't) but the RPG elements were dumbed down considerably.
The fact that you are more focused on the plot of a video game than if you are having fun with the game says something about you as a gamer. You over emphasis one aspect of the game that makes up for another one that is really lacking.
The plot and the gameplay must go hand in hand and one shouldn't really have to compensate for the other. I cite Heavy Rain again where I found the "gameplay" to be an annoying triage of random quick time events. I don't really care if the plot revolves around if I press a button correctly at the right time or not. The fact that I have to without any real strategy behind it is what annoys me.
The purpose of the person playing this game is just to advance the plot. You are not playing the game, but rather advancing the plot. It's like if you were watching a TV show and during the commercial break they ask you to pick if you want the love interest to live or die. You make your choice and that continues your TV show. The same thing goes around here only they pretend that if you push the button at the right time then you have more control.
So, again, I hate that. A lot.
I have never played a game where I felt less control over my character than this one.
For the life of me I cannot understand the appeal nor can I understand why everyone loves this game. I can't and I don't think I ever will.
*sigh*
God, Heavy Rain sucked.
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The plot and the gameplay must go hand in hand and one shouldn't really have to compensate for the other.
Do you hate Mario games with the same passion as you do Heavy Rain? Because I honestly don't believe that you actually believe this.
The fact that you are more focused on the plot of a video game than if you are having fun with the game says something about you as a gamer.
I haven't played Heavy Rain. But I have played Fahrenheit, and before the rush job became apparent I had more fun with it than maybe 95% of games I've played. It was really incredible. Great soundtrack, too.
I have never played a game where I felt less control over my character than this one.
Quantic Dream doesn't seem to condescend to players the way that most developers do. The amount of actual control you have over the player character in this sort of game is not particularly miniscule. In fact I would suspect that it's actually greater than most games, certainly in terms of choice and consequence. If it seems as though you lack control over your character it's likely because you conceive of "control" as primarily concerning control of position and action in a combat minigame.
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You might not have been able to find it because it's not out for the Gamecube!
If you've got a 360 and a Live connection you can buy it for download.
Thanks for the tip! I do find it so weird lame that the demo would be for a system it isn't being released on though.
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That is weird. Perhaps Atari axed a gamecube port before it went to manufacturers. Hard to say.
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Do you hate Mario games with the same passion as you do Heavy Rain? Because I honestly don't believe that you actually believe this.
Yeah, he is coming across as someone who hates on salsa for not being icecream. Personally, I do think Heavy Rain looks like it's in many ways more a movie than it is a game, but that's not necessarily a bad thing even if it isn't my cup of tea. For one thing, such games often have an exploration element that you don't get from films.
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What? I gave all my reasons why I really hate this game.
Didn't I point out that I DON'T like the plot and in a cinematic game where the plot it everything doesn't that sort of justify me for disliking something of this magnitude?
Also, if you guys enjoy QTE then by all means you will like this game because that's all it is. On the one hand if you fail to press a certain button the plot will manage itself and continue without the arbitrary "Game Over" screen that comes with most games. It's an interesting concept, but again, they sacrifice the concept of playing an actual video game rather to provide all of their radical ideas on what goes into a game.
Why would I hate Mario? Well, I'll backtrack a little on what I said about, "plot and gameplay" going hand in hand. That wasn't really true back in the old school gaming era and could be said now. Then again, what's to say that there is anything wrong with Mario? Princess gets kidnapped and you have to save her. Have fun going about collecting stars.
The difference between Mario and Heavy Rain are this: At the end of pressing a button to do action I still have control over Mario. I can do whatever I want with Mario. I can make Mario jump, shoot fireballs, jump on a goomba head or run him in circles for a few hours if that fits my playing style. You don't get that luxury in Heavy Rain. Instead you are only required to react WHEN NECESSARY. That is it.
It's a movie with some interactive elements. I don't like that. I don't like the concept.
By the way, I actually PLAYED the game unlike some of the people defending it. I mean if you played the Demo and think you can stand doing that for the entire game then by all means go for it. Buy the game, rave about it and then sleep content knowing that you payed $60 for an interactive film.
I on the other hand will be getting rid of this shit as soon as possible.
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What?
It's a movie with some interactive elements. I don't like that. I don't like the concept.
You basically answered your own question. It's fine that you don't like Heavy Rain because it doesn't fit your expectations or your ideal of what a video game should be like. Opinions are opinions. But stating that the action and the plot must be in balance as a general rule comes across as frankly rather presumptuous and ignores the fact that in many, many games the "balance" skews almost completely towards action and never looks back. It'd be more accurate to simply admit that you prefer for your games to be action oriented.
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Number17, you should start reading posts before angrily replying. Also, if you played Fahrenheit and hated it so much, why would you play Heavy Rain?
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Basically you have an opinion and its cool that you have an opinion and because of your opinion you don't like Heavy Rain which is also okay but it's not Heavy Rain's fault because the game was not trying to satisfy you or your opinion in the first place.
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what is a "game"
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...a...a miserable pile of secrets?
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...a...a miserable pile of QTEs.
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Number17, you should start reading posts before angrily replying. Also, if you played Fahrenheit and hated it so much, why would you play Heavy Rain?
Maybe because I actually listen to reviewers and people who tell me when something is "sick" and "awesome".
I couldn't find a single negative thing about Heavy Rain online.
So, I got the game assuming that maybe that Fahrenheit was a fluke.
It wasn't.
I will give props to the developers in making a plot that was at least better than Fahrenheit. Course, in my eyes, that's like saying one bowl of poop is better than the other.
It's still a bowl of poop.
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I would fuck that bowl of poop so hard then.
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that's gross
you guys are gross
yuck
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Number17, you should start reading posts before angrily replying. Also, if you played Fahrenheit and hated it so much, why would you play Heavy Rain?
Maybe because I actually listen to reviewers and people who tell me when something is "sick" and "awesome".
I couldn't find a single negative thing about Heavy Rain online.
So, I got the game assuming that maybe that Fahrenheit was a fluke.
It wasn't.
I will give props to the developers in making a plot that was at least better than Fahrenheit. Course, in my eyes, that's like saying one bowl of poop is better than the other.
It's still a bowl of poop.
So, basically, you're telling us you're an idiot that trusts other people's opinions more than your own, and you get extremely irate when that personality trait often leads you down unhappy paths?
To address not being able to find a bad thing about Heavy Rain on-line, metacritic has the aggregate reviews at an 88%. Whereas it has Fahrenheit at 85%. Wouldn't that give you an idea that perhaps you still wouldn't like Heavy Rain?
I think the first user review I saw on metacritic is hilariously apt:
Its a very good game,but its kind of a gamble. It isn't for everyone. if you don't like quick time event games then this game just isn't for you. If u have played Indigo Prophecy and you liked it then u will love heavy rain. Long story short, you will either love it or hate it. Its a game that is definitely worth a try though.
Now, I haven't, nor do I plan to play Heavy Rain. I really don't care what anyone thinks about it. I just think you're being particularly silly.
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Number17 is SO ANGRY about video games he doesn't like.
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To be fair, I had about the same reaction to The Witcher. Not in the particulars, but in how insulted I felt by the game.
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The shitty thing about the witcher is that there's good stuff in there, which can make you extra angry. Overall, I liked it, but I certainly have no inclination to defend it in light of the bad.
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I dunno.
I felt like Heavy Rain could be more than it really was.
Sadly, it wasn't.
It wasn't for me.
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I think I had about this same reaction with Indigo Prophecy, and, looking back, I know when the game stopped being an engaging story for me. The first time Whathisname displays a hint of power, when he Rider Kicks his punching bag off the chain, there's no reaction. He's just blank.
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The whole point of Heavy Rain is the narrative, and choice / consequence variation.
Interestingly enough I ran across an interview with David Cage wherein he said that the point of making deaths and the like permanent but not fatal to the storyline is because the game was made not with replayability in mind, but with the intention of making a particular playthrough "the player's game". That is, the first playthrough, determined by the choices of the player, is meant to be definitive for the player. It's an interesting sentiment for a developer to have, and not an unreasonable one, as few people who actually beat a game (which is not a majority of gamers, statistically) actually replay it.
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Well, I'm sold. (http://kotaku.com/5483372/nsfw-heavy-rain-glitch-brings-playable-accidental-nudity)
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I dunno.
I felt like Heavy Rain could be more than it really was.
Sadly, it wasn't.
It wasn't for me.
It seems that what you wanted was for it to be a completely different game. Honestly though, it bewilders me completely as to why you would buy it at all. Do you realize how much coverage this game has had, did you not see how many gameplay videos were up? Did you not watch them? Every single high-profile release has tons of gameplay videos everywhere. From this I know that FFXIII, Just Cause 2, GT5, Lost Planet 2, Nier (I could go on) hold no interest for me. The fact that you would buy another game from Quantic Dream after hating Farenheit, even though the games are insanely similar, baffles me.
But whatever. The game seems to have some trophy and freezing issues at the moment. I'm kind of glad that mine hasn't arrived at my doorstep yet, I get a little paranoid with my PS3.
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I read a review, saw a score and got a recommendation from a friend.
To be honest, the connection to Quantic Dream and Fahrenheit didn't snap together until after the fact. I'm not exactly saying that was a good idea on my part, but it serves as a reminder to myself that maybe high raves doesn't exactly mean it holds true to my own personal tastes.
Seriously, dumb this game down enough and it's Dragon's Lair without all the death scenes.
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I couldn't find a single negative thing about Heavy Rain online.
I read a review, saw a score and got a recommendation from a friend.
I just think you're being particularly silly.
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Ugh, this game makes me wish I had a PS3 soooo bad.
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I'm just baffled why you're still here arguing like we're arguing with you on any particular point except that you're remarkably silly for A) playing the game when just looking at a gameplay video would've shown you you wouldn't like it and 2) being so goshdarn angry at a game for being really really good in a direction you have no desire to play.
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I couldn't find a single negative thing about Heavy Rain online.
I read a review, saw a score and got a recommendation from a friend.
I just think you're being particularly silly.
Again, I said that I didn't make the Fahrenheit and Heavy Rain connection.
Give me a break here.
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I'm just baffled why you're still here arguing like we're arguing with you on any particular point except that you're remarkably silly for A) playing the game when just looking at a gameplay video would've shown you you wouldn't like it and 2) being so goshdarn angry at a game for being really really good in a direction you have no desire to play.
Still going to defend my point to the grave.
I hated it.
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I, too, pay 60+ without researching my games.
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Just two things that I take issue with about your posts. Nothing too big, I'm sure you will be able to take an unwarranted defensive stance against both. So you say you didn't see the connection between Fahrenheit and Heavy Rain until AFTER you played Heavy Rain, yet you say this:
So, I got the game assuming that maybe that Fahrenheit was a fluke.
Which kind of hints at you, you know... Making a connection between the two games. Of course this is all invalidated by the fact that you might have only seen a comparison between the QTE of both games. But if you did not like the QTE of Fahrenheit, why would you then assume that they would be different for Heavy Rain. That all QTE are not in fact, the same, other than use in plot, I mean, Spider-man 3 and Heavy Rain obviously use them in different ways, but if a gameplay mechanic is built around QTE's you'd have to be an idiot (sorry don't want to incite rage) fool to not think that the same thing that displeases you between one game would magically disappear. So really you either didn't know anything about Heavy Rain other than a bunch of reviewers told you to purchase it, in which case you are easily told what to do OR you are for some reason trying to defend something by lying you needn't because an opinion is an opinion. No matter how stupidly formed it is.
Note this isn't anything against you, and my point has been articulated much more fluently earlier in the thread, but looking at your post history is kind of ridiculous.
The second point by the way is the fact that you somehow managed to read a review, saw a score, got a recommendation from a friend, and purchase a game without ever thinking "woah, this game is extremely similar in gameplay style to a game I REALLY DIDN'T LIKE"
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Right your point is you hated it and no one's saying you didn't hate it so why are you defending a point no one's debating?
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I have no idea anymore.
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Yay! Discussion over! Yay!
you want it to be one way. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=409Pjtq7jzY)
Sam I could hug you so hard right now
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I watched that trailer in the OP but I had to stop when she started showering. I wasn't wearing any clothes because I just woke up and watching it naked just weirded me out too much and now I can't be bothered.
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That's a shame, because the part that comes after is really cool.
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if you think this game is like dragon's lair you haven't fucking played dragon's lair
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Apparently, I'm not the only one who thought the plot sucked: http://www.destructoid.com/why-heavy-rain-has-lowered-the-bar-for-game-narrative-165426.phtml
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Eh. That's not a good condemnation of it I think.
This (http://www.destructoid.com/why-heavy-rain-proves-ebert-right-165034.phtml) makes a much better point and really digs to the heart of the issue of games as art and Heavy Rain in particular.
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Ebert hasn't been "proven right". He's yet to have been proven wrong. It's kind of bullshit to suggest that Heavy Rain "lowers the bar" for gaming considering how seriously fucking stupid gaming narratives tend to be. Heavy Rain has nothing on Gears of War.
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You mean where you have no idea what the fuck is going on? Yeah, I'm with you on that.
How about Resistance or Resistance II? Plot sucked as well.
In fact, the only time I was really really engaged in plots recently was Batman: Arkham Asylum and Mass Effect 2.
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I'm only about half-way through my first play of Heavy Rain, but I absolutely love it.
Number17 keeps talking about not having control of the characters, but really, Heavy Rain gives you more control over the characters than any game I've ever played. It just strips out all the useless game-play that has nothing to do with the story. This is a game that is PERFECTLY balanced between story and game-play.
I'm sorry, but I don't see how being able to make your character spin around in circles and bunnyhop makes for better gameplay. The controls in Heavy Rain are so perfectly meshed with the action that it almost feels real. And this is even more true when you mess up: mistakes are completely and seamlessly incorporated into what's happening.
I hate games that make you play through some long and pointless "level" (using gameplay elements that are either irrelevant to the story, or outright violations of the story's universe.) which is basically just there to eat up your time until you finally beat it and are rewarded with a pat on the head and another pittance of story.
You can call Heavy Rain an "interactive movie" and deride it for that. But for $50, you get a roughly TEN HOUR experience that makes you feel more involved with the characters than in any game I've ever played, and can be significantly different each time you "watch" it. That's a better deal than $20 for nearly any movie.
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Wait until you reach the end.
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Wait until you reach the end.
Which end? You're talking about a story where any combination of the four main characters can die at any point, in any order.
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ebert's not right or at the very most he's only part right and if any of you fucks were with it enough to consider games as TEXT as opposed to games as ART and if you knew anything about authorial theory (as opposed to auteur theory which is a simplified and film-specific version of it) you would know that the major debate since barthes has been the importance of the author and the relative interpretation & perspectives brought to text by an individual, and the question is whether any reading has primacy over another
at most you could say serious film/literature/art/whatever relies on SOME form of authorial control - as do video games
you mooks
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To a certain extent auteur theory can be applied to games. I've certainly argued long and hard for Chris Avellone's inclusion in that sort of a concept, but outside of his work it's hard to find specific individuals who fit the bill (Ken Levine maybe, Hideo Kojima, probably a few other Japanese gaming luminaries) I don't know how you'd approach authorial control with regard to games because since games these days (aside from indies like Braid) are made by dozens of people. A game like Mass Effect 2 is akin to maybe a thematically unified short story collection or a novel written in parts by different authors, and even with a pretty decent amount of quality control it's inconsistent to some extent.
Anyway, I'd disagree with Ebert and say that games are art. But I'd say that, especially as games become more "cinematic", games are showing themselves to be, with few exceptions, bad art. I would say that we need a different metric, or several metrics, related to mechanics that separate games from other mediums. Honestly were you to analyze even the best games by film standards they would be judged as clumsy at best and bad at worst. A good part of this is due to the fact that until very recently, subtle storytelling was far more difficult to accomplish in games. There was no "show versus tell". There was only "tell". And so you got lots and lots of expository dialogue (you even get this in "literate" RPGs like Fallout 3 and Mass Effect) and lots of flat descriptions. That sort of habit is hard to break. We're just now getting to the point where you can reasonably approximate body language in models, where you can convey messages without having them said, and you can have the "camera" establish things without being utterly confusing. One of the significant reasons Bioshock is as well-regarded as it is is because the audio diaries you pick up only tell half the story. Everything in the game world - The splicers, the way you have to pay for everything (except the vitachambers, although that is explained eventually), the plasmids - establishes the theme of the game, which is why it's such a great setting (Bioshock 2, on the other hand, sucked in this regard).
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john did you even read my post
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I'll post whatever I like when I'm sedated, you.
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i have a copy of this, i received it by accident while ordering things from amazon. it sounds neat based on what i've read about it.
should i unwrap it or return it? (it's still sealed)
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Depends on whether you have a PS3 or not.
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um, i don't have one myself.
but got it as a gift from an acquaintance who is pretty dang good at video games. (she's a frag doll cadette!)
returning it would be rude AND hypocritical. fuck it, must unwrap and kidnap a friend with a ps3.
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It is funny how even in threads which are not even discussing them, John snipes at Bethesda and BioWare.
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He's gonna be the dude lauding Marcel Duchamp's entry into the medium.
Just to riff on his argument though, though, I think developers are still using so much expository dialogue because there is a lot more to explain. Particularly in the RPGs you always peck at, where the developers are trying to fill you in on this pretty big universe they've created. They're getting better at it, certainly, but to be financially solvent they're still gonna have to cater to the dumber people who can't pick up on it like you or I, or they wouldn't sell nearly as many copies. Or they could cut the lore, and have a bunch of nerds throw a shitfit, which thankfully they haven't done (although there have been a few RPGs where lore was near non-existent and they were all considered to be pretty awful in terms of narrative). Compare this to a movie like, oh, I don't know...Star Wars, or Willow. Since there is only one possible outcome of those movies, they only need to let you know enough to understand the plot. Even then (and this is more of a sci-fi thing, anyways, as a lot of the people who are into sci-fi like to know how purely fictional technologies work), they still do a fair bit of explaining the politics and wildlife. In linear narratives, a lot less is needed for the player (or viewer) to grasp the setting and mood.
Basically what I'm getting at is that it is really hard to justify the amount of exposition in these broad, exploratory, branching RPGs when you are comparing them to the singular, pre-determined narratives in film and literature.
If any part of this seems incoherent, I apologize, I've had about 3 hours sleep in the last 2 days.
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... an acquaintance who is pretty dang good at video games. (she's a frag doll cadette!)
This semester's cadette class is naff. Mostly just a bunch of PMS girls, so I don't see the point, they might as well just go and ask PMS directly if anyone's interested.
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i was gonna apply for class of 2010 but missed the deadline, busy with actual software development.
not necessarily video games. :wink:
also, this particular girl is becoming more of a friend than an aquaintance, but in a slow, natural way.
her snes collection is massive. and her application essay was quite impressive.
i dunno which cadettes you're referring to, gemma, but the one i am talking bout is not a full time student at pms.
(or is it pmt in your crazy brit slang?)
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It is funny how even in threads which are not even discussing them, John snipes at Bethesda and BioWare.
(http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/7015/tarantinofistpump.gif)
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i was gonna apply for class of 2010 but missed the deadline, busy with actual software development.
not necessarily video games. :wink:
also, this particular girl is becoming more of a friend than an aquaintance, but in a slow, natural way.
her snes collection is massive. and her application essay was quite impressive.
i dunno which cadettes you're referring to, gemma, but the one i am talking bout is not a full time student at pms.
(or is it pmt in your crazy brit slang?)
I'm just saying, I think it's a bit messed up that out of 12 slots, 1/3 of those went to PMS girls (http://www.pmsclan.com/). The fact that most girls from PMS and dudes from H2O are as annoying as shit is neither here nor there. I think actually, the only girl that I'm pleased about making it is Lirael/kaitlyn.
Also it's Gemm, not Gemma. :)
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Gemmwah.
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i played this last night at a friend's house and didn't even get to the "exciting" parts and it was still the most amazing gaming experience i've ever had.
it's scary how totally immersive it is. and people who say that it doesn't condescend with a false pretense of "control" that other games offer are spot-on.
i hope more games like this get made, and sell well, because a game like this with a bigger budget which allowed you more freedom of exploration/interaction with the world/characters would be godly.
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Heavy Rain already had a pretty big budget, and wouldn't giving you more freedom of exploration and interaction completely miss the point of what this game is about? I don't understand how you can say having control is a condescension and then immediately ask for more freedom in the sequel.
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i just meant bigger budget for, say, voice actors so you could have more conversations and, at some points, explore the environment a bit more. basically i just meant it would be amazing if you could just randomly go off exploring or doing pointless things. i'm not saying that should replace this specific game's goal, which is showing you a very specific story, but i think a game could be made that has more freedom but retains the virtues of this one.
it's hard to be specific since, as i said, i didn't get very far into the game at all, but i'm imagining something like a GTA open-world in terms of size, but this game's attention to detail wrt realism and plot. for example, instead of a chapter starting you off in the place you need to explore, make you do the work to find out where you should even be going at all, or why.
but not with planescape-scale walls of text (or voice, in this case) because i seriously hate the gameplay design of "just go talk to everyone and listen to their incredibly long stories on the off chance it will be useful). it would be great to have a game where trying to talk to complete strangers resulted in "do i know you?" rather than "hello there, let me tell you A STORY and by the way, could you find MY ITEM for me?"
edit: oh and my point about condescending pretense of control was echoing what others have said, which is that you have more control in this game than in, say, Super Mario Brothers because the only thing you can really do in most games is make it to the next level or fail. being able to "fail" yet still have the game continue, and adapt to your failure, is much more control than games typically give you.
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Heavy Rain already had a pretty big budget, and wouldn't giving you more freedom of exploration and interaction completely miss the point of what this game is about? I don't understand how you can say having control is a condescension and then immediately ask for more freedom in the sequel.
I always thought the point of the game was in giving you control of the story, rather than the character. With the ability to kill off all four main characters and such. That is what I would think you mean by more freedom, being able to make even more choices that change the storyline.
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I always thought the point of the game was in giving you control of the story, rather than the character. With the ability to kill off all four main characters and such. That is what I would think you mean by more freedom, being able to make even more choices that change the storyline.
yeah, that too. maybe even a game in which there exist several stories, and one might not even experience them all (or even know they exist or how they connect to the "main" story).
basically i'm just saying combine this game with a sandbox game and you would have the best game of all time. it would be like a "life simulator" only with a plot (something life often lacks).
for example, let's say there's this hypothetical game (let's call it World) where you can pretty much do whatever you want. you start out not really knowing anything weird is going to happen (much how Heavy Rain starts). let's say in this game you decide to walk to a coffee shop on the corner, sit down and read a book or whatever. while you're there, you overhear a conversation about a friend of yours being missing, which leads you to pursue their whereabouts in whatever way you want (call mutual friends, go to where he was last seen, call the cops, go to places they hung out, etc.)
or you don't do that, and decide to go to a bar at night. while walking home, you see someone get murdered in an alley, and you deal with that situation (which is somehow connected to your missing friend, who you don't yet know is missing). etc.
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Sales info puts units sold on Heavy Rain at about 220k, which is pretty staggering considering how odd the game is.
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...
ur kool. wil u b my frnd?
lol, seriously though.
I just finished the game the other night. Great ending. Reminded me of so many mediocre but exciting whodunit movies from like the ninties or whenever, only better. I was just a tad disappointed by the reveal of who the killer is. Seems like they could have foreshadowed that a bit better. Reminds me of the twist in Fight Club, though. You really don't see it coming, and a part of you wonders if maybe the writers didn't see it coming either.
I got the mostly happy ending where *SPOILER* Ethan, Madison, and the boy survive and live happily ever after, but the FBI agent fails miserably in his investigation. *endSPOILER*
Epicly awesome game, as a whole, IMO. There really do need to be more games like this.
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basically i'm just saying combine this game with a sandbox game and you would have the best game of all time. it would be like a "life simulator" only with a plot (something life often lacks).
for example, let's say there's this hypothetical game (let's call it World) where you can pretty much do whatever you want. you start out not really knowing anything weird is going to happen (much how Heavy Rain starts). let's say in this game you decide to walk to a coffee shop on the corner, sit down and read a book or whatever. while you're there, you overhear a conversation about a friend of yours being missing, which leads you to pursue their whereabouts in whatever way you want (call mutual friends, go to where he was last seen, call the cops, go to places they hung out, etc.)
or you don't do that, and decide to go to a bar at night. while walking home, you see someone get murdered in an alley, and you deal with that situation (which is somehow connected to your missing friend, who you don't yet know is missing). etc.
Actually, this is pretty ingenius, but it also leads to the reason why a game like this would be awful hard to justify funding for. Think about all the things you could choose to do after overhearing that conversation in the coffee shop (ie. the stuff you listed.) Now think about all the work it would take to develop that content. Now think about the exec thundering "so wait you just blew $100 million on shit the player will never even see?!?"
Which isn't entirely an insurmountable problem, but it falls very much into the realm of research (specifically, the research of guys like Michael Mateas or Chris Crawford.)
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Sales info puts units sold on Heavy Rain at about 220k, which is pretty staggering considering how odd the game is.
that's really cool, but i'm going to go ahead and baselessly speculate that it's also going to be one of the most "traded in after playing for an hour" games of all time. i hope i'm wrong and a lot of people enjoy this concept as much as i do.
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Between this and God of War III, I've been convinced now which console to go buy. I will now be setting my sights on a PS3, rather than a 360.
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I'm trying to figure out what lead me to buying an Xbox360. I can't think of a single game I've played that is Xbox exclusive, that along with monthly online fees, and lack of bluray makes the PS3 worth the extra cash.
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If I get an XBox it'll mostly be for XBox Live Arcade, rather than big AAA titles.
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bluray makes the PS3 worth the extra cash.
It really does. Not to mention that the PS3 upscales DVDs to HD better than any other player on the planet.
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lack of bluray makes the PS3 worth the extra cash.
If you have a good HDTV. Otherwise blu-ray's kind of pointless.
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Without an HDTV, the games(xb360 or ps3) are also kind of pointless.
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And anyway, I think KvP was making a distinction between good HDTVs and bad ones, not HD and normal televisions.
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Yeah, my gaming enjoyment isn't even remotely dependent on HD.
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Sometimes in-game text on my standard-def TV is far too tiny to be considered comfortable, e.g. Dead Rising. Although, to be honest, I hated Dead Rising anyway, so no big deal.
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i agree. bring back the emotion engine