THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)
Comic Discussion => QUESTIONABLE CONTENT => Topic started by: Is it cold in here? on 03 Jun 2010, 11:33
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Continuing the discussion from the weekly comic thread.
There must be a reason Angus likes her, unless he's just one of those people who are compassionate toward everyone.
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Continuing the discussion from the weekly comic thread.
There must be a reason Angus likes her, unless he's just one of those people who are compassionate toward everyone.
Awesome! I'm glad this might be talked about a little more. Honestly, I feel like Marigold hasn't been given a chance to show much of her character yet. As of now, we've seen her game, putter about, stammer, read, cry, nosebleed, and be forward with Angus(not necessarily in that order). I can't figure out if she's so introverted that she hasn't had a chance to show that she can actually be a friend...or if she's just not very thoughtful in the first place. It's not like she doesn't get out of the apartment (the mini-con) and it's not like she's not brave enough to interact with others. Ahh, now I'm just rambling.
My last thought on the matter is: let's see more of her before we brand her anything for certain.
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Why do people adopt poodles? They're angry little shits that'll tear up pretty much anything put in front of them, yet they're still a pretty popular breed.
I think Angus just feels sorry for Marigold and the crap she went through in high school. I think he thinks of himself as a modern-day, chivalrous knight.
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She's been the victim in her own mind for so long that she probably doesn't question whether or not she's a good person or how a good person would act in a given situation. She knows what she wants and has made passive-aggressive and, when drunk, aggressive attempts at getting those things, but we have yet to see a situation in which she is curious about the feelings of others.
Marigold really bothered me in this one: http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1560 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1560)
Love Faye, hate her, or barely know her, that's a pretty terrible thing to happen to someone. I'd think most people would react with some shock before trying to console Angus, but she jumps straight to kissing his ass without batting an eye. That kind of behavior doesn't come from a lack of social interaction. It's just creepy.
She's had a healthier social life handed to her out of pity and aside from a couple of outbursts from Hannelore and Angus, no one is telling her that trying to elicit more attention from sympathy is manipulative. So in that respect, it's not her fault. On the other hand, she's not a child and many of her faults are inexcusable even given her isolated past.
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Why do people adopt poodles? They're angry little shits that'll tear up pretty much anything put in front of them, yet they're still a pretty popular breed.
You mean miniature poodles, right?
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Love Faye, hate her, or barely know her, that's a pretty terrible thing to happen to someone. I'd think most people would react with some shock before trying to console Angus, but she jumps straight to kissing his ass without batting an eye. That kind of behavior doesn't come from a lack of social interaction. It's just creepy.
Overall, he's *not* an insensitive asshole, is he? I've had friends say to themselves 'geezus, I'm such a bitch' or 'god I'm so stupid' and immediately either asked what was wrong or discounted that they were whatever they were calling themselves...*then* asked what was wrong. I think it's a natural reaction to discount someone's self deprecation when you yourself know that they're being overly dramatic.
I actually disliked Angus a little on that comic.
I really am curious as to why he thinks she's SO great though (as he put it the other day). Either he was laying it on thick so that she'd come out of her shell and feel better about herself, or he really admires her for some reason. Which, as of yet, we have no backstory for (and in fact, have more evidence against, as seen in that comic you just cited). :\
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Overall, he's *not* an insensitive asshole, is he? I've had friends say to themselves 'geezus, I'm such a bitch' or 'god I'm so stupid' and immediately either asked what was wrong or discounted that they were whatever they were calling themselves...*then* asked what was wrong. I think it's a natural reaction to discount someone's self deprecation when you yourself know that they're being overly dramatic.
I actually disliked Angus a little on that comic.
Yeah I wasn't a big fan of him in that one, either.
I agree it's a natural reaction to rebuff self-depreciation, but I think it's also a natural reaction to express shock when you learn that something traumatic happened, especially to someone you know. It would seem more normal if she had said "that's terrible" or "how awful" or something like that after Angus told her about Faye. Yet the only concern she had was for the object of her affection. It doesn't seem like it was a conscious decision to react that way, and that's why I felt it was creepy.
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I vote number one with a one-word addendum - "yet."
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It would seem more normal if she had said "that's terrible" or "how awful" or something like that after Angus told her about Faye. Yet the only concern she had was for the object of her affection. It doesn't seem like it was a conscious decision to react that way, and that's why I felt it was creepy.
Yeah, I see what you mean.
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I think Marigold is somewhat disconnected socially.
She may be one of those individuals that was naturally shy when younger, which may have led to her becoming a shut-in like she was when we first met her. I think it's going to be interesting to see her drawn out (pun intended) socially and personality wise now that she has connected to our favourite group.
Whether she becomes a better person because of it or becomes a terror only time will tell.
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Marigold reminds me of driving. Seriously. There's a small town about an hour and a half North of me that I'd never seen until a few months ago, but for some reason it always seemed special whenever I saw the road signs. Finally, I drove there. I walked into a corner store so mesmerized by the surreality of it all that I failed to notice I was treating everyone inside like some kind of fantasy creature. I don't think they noticed, but at that moment I was being obscenely self-involved and kind of insulting in a roundabout way. Oddly enough, it turned out the place held special meaning to me from forgotten memories of my childhood, and that was why it seemed so profoundly mystical.
Marigold is the same way. Hanners made an observatory remark that Marigold was pretty, and Angus seconded it. To Marigold, this is the re-awakening of feelings like self-worth and desire. Suddenly, she wants a boyfriend, she wants a social life, and all these things are actually within her grasp enough to turn them into real goals. Like I was in Kaladar (the town I mentioned above), so is she in her own feelings. She doesn't realize, and in fact for the most part can't realize when she's acting like a tool.
Marigold's shown herself to be altruistic and caring on a number of occasions. She had little reservation about letting a near-stranger borrow at least $200 worth of manga, she's made affectionate jokes about Hannelore on her Twitter (or at least I think it's affectionate, I don't know Mass Effect) and as evidenced by the beginning of this strip (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1628), she shows a genuine interest in the social lives of her new friends (When has Faye ever discussed her personal life, sober or drunk, without some kind of prompting?). Here (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1493) she shows that she cares enough for Hanners' feelings to make sure she's not too shook up by her guild-mates' comments (someone please correct me on the term if it's wrong), and here (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1619) she seems genuinely sorry she inadvertently insulted Dora, as she does here (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1621).
The only two areas in which she's been really selfish are her pursuit of Angus and her somewhat self-absorbed constant self-deprecation, and those both come with the territory. Once she sorts herself out, I think we'll discover that she actually does care.
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l.
The only two areas in which she's been really selfish are her pursuit of Angus and her somewhat self-absorbed constant self-deprecation, and those both come with the territory. Once she sorts herself out, I think we'll discover that she actually does care.
Thanks for those links, Ian. It's easy to forget certain strips with other strips leave such a bad taste in my mouth. I look forward to seeing Marigold get more chances to show that side.
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Please remember, Angus says she's great. He's also living with her, and knows her better than any of us.
Hell, people are still arguing about what kind of person Angus is, and we know him about ten times better than we know Marigold at this point!
Although I do somewhat think he's using the "No, you're great" to defuse the wallowing-in-self-pity bomb that's about to go off when she starts in that direction. Sort of the old "I'm OK, you're OK" psychology that led to all the little kids getting end-of-season trophies every year, whether the team ever won or not...
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Angus seems to be Jeph's most complex character. As you said, it's hard to know how to take what he says.
He may just be trying to spare her feelings. I hope eventually she catches on and yells "Damn it, I am a Marigold, not some delicate flower!" and everyone else in the room just looks at each other.
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He may just be trying to spare her feelings. I hope eventually she catches on and yells "Damn it, I am a Marigold, not some delicate flower!" and everyone else in the room just looks at each other.
That would be nice, but I think it would be out of character right now. As she said, "That's all I really want, though. Somebody to be nice to me, and pay attention, and, y'know . . ." She's going to take what she can get. If she does press him about why she's so great, I fear it will only be to get some more specific compliments.
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Sorry for the late jump in, normally only read the WCT if that. Bored on a train though :P
Marigold's shown herself to be altruistic and caring on a number of occasions. She had little reservation about letting a near-stranger borrow at least $200 worth of manga,
Oh yeah, someone who protects her manga like this (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1413)is lending manga to someone who has a proven record directly to Marigod of treating those exact specific manga like this (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1420). My heart aches at her generosity. Next thing you know, she'll loan her 20 year old car to an automechanic!
Plus, as we've no evidence of her or Hanners ever knowing Japanese (much less both of them), these are not high rarity imports but rather relatively cheap subs / fansubs. So Marigold lent someone a book, someone likely to return it in better condition than when it was lent. Whoopie.
as evidenced by the beginning of this strip (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1628), she shows a genuine interest in the social lives of her new friends (When has Faye ever discussed her personal life, sober or drunk, without some kind of prompting?).
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=500
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=511
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1079
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1089 (sorta)
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1342 (sorta)
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1343
etc. I wouldn't put it past her to drunkenly discuss it on her own volition... I would find the concept of Marigold -- who has never really been introduced to Sven -- bringing it up more unlikely.
Here (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1493) she shows that she cares enough for Hanners' feelings to make sure she's not too shook up by her guild-mates' comments (someone please correct me on the term if it's wrong)
She seems just as mortified by the concept and immediately co-opted it into self pity. Also this proves that she at least has some repetoir with her raid guild which means she's not the social six year old people are treating her as.
and here (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1619) she seems genuinely sorry she inadvertently insulted Dora, as she does here (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1621).
Nonspecific apologies to a blatantly (perhaps irrationally, if Marigold didn't have a foot so far down her mouth she was autofellating) mad person.
The only two areas in which she's been really selfish are her pursuit of Angus and her somewhat self-absorbed constant self-deprecation, and those both come with the territory. Once she sorts herself out, I think we'll discover that she actually does care.
How about her treatment of Momo, which includes her apathy at fixing Momo's friend (Pintsize fix) and her demand that Momo give up on a raid to indulge Marigold's self interest (a raid Momo was doing specifically to free Marigold from that responsibility (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1475))?
Anyway, she's had something like 25 years to sort herself out. WoW is a social game and she seems to excel at it, with evidence that she's not just camwhoring (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1502)it out to get by. Hanners has massive OCD and was literally raised in a space station and is more socially adjusted. Faye witnessed her dad's suicide and survived her own possible suicide attempt and is more socially adjusted.
Anyway, as should be clear, I have no interest in Marigold other than what better characters reveal about themselves when dealing with her. Jeph seems fixated on her so I'm sure we'll see her "get better", but if I were any one of the QC universe people I would not be making anywhere near the effort to include her that every single one of them is. But for now she's just so... boring. She exists basically to get better, and I don't find that compelling at all. She's a self-centered jerk.
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And yet... we have an entire thread on her.
I'd say she's a character "under construction" right now.
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And yet... we have an entire thread on her.
I'd say she's a character "under construction" right now.
Well, she's been around for more than 250 strips now, and one could reasonably argue that she's been one of the two major focuses (Angus being the other, and half of his strips are Marigold-appeasing centric). So far she seems to have constructed from a character we know nothing about to one I would rather know nothing about :P
Edit: Gah I didn't realize she's been around for more than a year... how much more leeway can y'all give her?
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... and her demand that Momo give up on a raid to indulge Marigold's self interest (a raid Momo was doing specifically to free Marigold from that responsibility (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1475))?
Looking at Momo-tan's dialog in the preceding strips, does it really sound to you as if she was doing something for Marigirl as opposed to being selfishly engrossed? Someone with a social protocol database isn't going to say "Meh. Later." by accident if she's doing someone a favor.
Magical Love Gentlemen may have been an import. Marigold is known to buy top of the line imported Japanese goods (Momo is a high end model!). Even if she doesn't know enough Japanese to follow anime, she has an AnthroPC who can translate.
For comparison and perspective, how long had Faye been around before giving clear evidence of kindness or caring about someone else's feelings? (Understandable if you don't want to wait for Marigold *that* long). (And duly noted that you didn't cite Faye as an example of a good character, just one who is relatively better adjusted despite severe trauma (which we can't compare to Marigirl's because we don't know her past. Self-esteem problems that bad suggest severe early childhood abuse)).
Marigold needs Raven for a friend.
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Oh yeah, someone who protects her manga like this is lending manga to someone who has a proven record directly to Marigod of treating those exact specific manga like this. My heart aches at her generosity. Next thing you know, she'll loan her 20 year old car to an automechanic!
There is no fixing a book. Page is torn, it's going to stay torn. Spine is fucked up, probably going to stay fucked up. Stain on the cover? Probably not going to get it out without damaging the pages below. Maybe Marigold leant her the manga as some sort of ploy to get her to replace all the manga. Even though only a few hours before she was threatening to throw out everything she owned and give nothing in return. But maybe Marigold knew that wasn't what Hannelore was really like, because maybe she's been spying on her since infancy.
Plus, as we've no evidence of her or Hanners ever knowing Japanese (much less both of them), these are not high rarity imports but rather relatively cheap subs / fansubs.
Manga runs at at least $10 per volume in a bookstore, and books are notoriously low-profit, meaning even the cheapest fansub would run maybe a buck cheaper or else whoever did it would lose money hand over fist. There seems to be at least 20 volumes of it, so we're talking $180 at the very cheapest. I'm not saying she's Mother Theresa, but it can't be denied that lending that much of anything to someone you barely know is an altruistic act. And the fact that she did it basically instinctually means it wasn't forced, and it wasn't part of some ploy for attention or admiration, it was just her.
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=500
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=511
I'd call the first 499 strips of the series "prompting", and the fact that I just wrote out "499" instead of, like, 205 or 197 indicates that it is, in fact, that hard to get Faye to open up.
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1079
"I have issues pushing my boundaries" isn't your personal life, it's just your personality. She didn't go into why, or even what those boundaries were (although she inferred pretty badly on the latter).
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1089 (sorta)
Being in a therapist's office is about the definition of prompting.
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1342 (sorta)
She blurted out a bunch of obscenities, none of which actually indicated why she was pissed off. Four hours ago one of my best friends was sitting in the back of my car, and he yelled at a passing couple that they looked nice. Even I couldn't read subtext from that and he's one of my best friends.
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1343
Dora is both her best friend and Sven's sister. It was going to come up eventually. Again, prompting.
I don't think it's exactly in Faye's character to start a conversation with "So here's the story of my last boyfriend." I wouldn't venture a guess as to how it came up, but I'd guess Marigold prompted it in some indirect way.
She seems just as mortified by the concept and immediately co-opted it into self pity.
She actually reacted with anger, not mortification, and in the next strip Hannelore is shown literally curled up in fear as Marigold stammers out to try to rectify the situation. And she didn't co-opt anything, Hanners literally said "How about you?"
Also this proves that she at least has some repetoir with her raid guild which means she's not the social six year old people are treating her as.
As far as I can tell, to succeed at WoW, you need to be one of two things: someone with good social skills, or someone who spends a lot of time playing. Dale appears to be the first, Marigold is decidedly the second. Of all the times we've seen her playing, only in one is she hooked up to a mic, and she spends the whole time talking to Hanners, not anyone else until the end. The fact that someone else in her guild felt comfortable enough to make a joke about her means either a) she has a good rapport with her fellow players or b) they're too socially awkward themselves to know it's not really cool. Given that her guild-mates are apparently easily impressed by camwhores, and used the phrase "lez out", money's on the second one.
How about her treatment of Momo, which includes her apathy at fixing Momo's friend (Pintsize fix)
But she did it.
and her demand that Momo give up on a raid to indulge Marigold's self interest (a raid Momo was doing specifically to free Marigold from that responsibility)?
As Jeph himself said in the newspost, the joke is supposed to be that she's trying to make Momo act sociably when she can't take her own advice. Not trying to be the center of attention, trying to make Momo act sociably.
Anyway, she's had something like 25 years to sort herself out.
Well the period up until she graduated college was the period she's having to sort herself out from, so it's more like four at best. And apparently according to her Twitter people yell at her on the street. People generally don't sort themselves out until they even see a reason to. Enter the QC cast.
WoW is a social game and she seems to excel at it
Seriously, the most socially awkward human being I know excels at WoW. This whole "Marigold as perfectly capable sociopath" explanation only works if you've never dealt with a sociopath before. I've dated one, and been involved in the lives of many others. They will seek out what they want immediately and not stop until they get it, no matter who they hurt. She wouldn't be pursuing Angus recently, she'd have been pursuing him for years, and she'd probably have gotten him by now. She would not have been harassed in school, because the first couple people to fuck with her would've ended up with severe internal bleeding one way or another.
All the evidence points to her having good intentions, but neither the skills or the self-awareness to know how to use them, or recognize when she's failing at it horribly. I'll admit sometimes as a character she gets on my nerves, but being the amateur psychoanalyst I am, I can't help but see someone ultimately worthy.
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Looking at Momo-tan's dialog in the preceding strips, does it really sound to you as if she was doing something for Marigirl as opposed to being selfishly engrossed? Someone with a social protocol database isn't going to say "Meh. Later." by accident if she's doing someone a favor.
Magical Love Gentlemen may have been an import. Marigold is known to buy top of the line imported Japanese goods (Momo is a high end model!). Even if she doesn't know enough Japanese to follow anime, she has an AnthroPC who can translate.
It started out as a favor which later turned into an enjoyable activity for Momo. This is moot, as Momo's selfish action does not justify Marigold's aggressive behavior (note that she was drunk at this time, as she was when she jumped Angus - more aggressive behavior).
The cost of the anime is another moot point. As TAG noted, Marigold isn't too careful with her anime, or many of her other possessions. This and the fact she left her wallet at COD make me wonder if money is not an issue to her. This may be because she works for her father. We don't really know how much she is paid or how much work she really does, but she did get defensive about it. It would not be a huge leap of logic to assume she is compensated above and beyond what she would get from another employer for the same work. Good for her, but it does mean that anything that can be easily replaced is of less value to her (thus excluding Momo and her computer).
Like I said before, I think Marigold has seen herself as a victim for so long that she does not consider whether or not she is a good person. That requires a level of self-reflection of which she is either not capable or in which she subconsciously chooses not to engage. Even with Angus's rejection, she's been socially lucky since her introduction to the strip. She has not seen that being good to other people means that they'll be good to you since they're all going out of their way to be nice to her.
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Blu ?
I dunno havnt not any idea.
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As TAG noted, Marigold isn't too careful with her anime, or many of her other possessions.
She is highly protective of them. The third thing she ever said in the strip was, to the people entering her room, "DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING". Her first ever dialog balloon ended with "And what are you doing with Momo-tan?"
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All I notice in the last week or so of comics is that Marigold's eyes have been darting around in every panel. I know that look well: nervous, worried, trying to take it all in so she doesn't make any mistakes...
...and now, she's blindsided by Tai's simple comment.
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As TAG noted, Marigold isn't too careful with her anime, or many of her other possessions.
She is highly protective of them. The third thing she ever said in the strip was, to the people entering her room, "DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING". Her first ever dialog balloon ended with "And what are you doing with Momo-tan?"
I noted the exception with Momo since she is not replaceable, assuming AntroPCs are true AI. Not wanting strangers (at that point) to touch her stuff wasn't necessarily a sign of how much she values said stuff, but likely of paranoia and suspicion. She was, after all, leaving her things around to collect rat droppings.
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Critics of Purplepants adduce much evidence that she's self-centered.
This would, however, hardly distinguish her from most of the rest of the cast.
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Human nature is inherently self-centered. We see through our own eyes, we feel our own feelings, we are the center of our own universes. The question is, to what level is it acceptable? I draw that line at where you're no longer able to be rationally altruistic and/or have no sense of empathy. If you're in a bar, and your friends all decide on a pitcher but don't know what kind, you're going to vote for your favourite beer, because you're self-centered. But you're going to abide by the group decision because you see that the greater good is maximized that way (rational altruism).
Take Tai for example. Generally Tai is all about Tai, be it her love life or her desire to get her clit pierced. She's indicated she's not above blackmailing friends and employees with naked photos. However, she feels genuine sympathy for Hanners' condition, and guilt for blurting out the truth about Angus and Faye, and these things are a constant pattern. So, self-centered or not, I'd call her a good person.
For Marigold, I'd chalk it mostly up to not looking at the whole equation. She really very much wants Angus, but it hasn't occurred to her that Angus isn't going to be happy in a relationship with her. I'd predict this current arc to end with Marigold confronting Angus, but Angus turning it back on her and saying that he has his own feeling and interests and she has no right to expect him to come to her eventually. Then Marigold will storm off but eventually realize he's right. Unless of course she's a sociopath, but I'm not going to dispute that point of view any more because it cuts way too close to the bone. In any case, no. No she's not.
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Personally, I think Marigold has developed plenty. It's not because she isn't developing in to what we think she should be, that it's bad.
Marigold is who she is because of what she has experienced, just like everyone else. You can't expect her to come to a viewpoint of someone else, when that other person came to it by experiencing other things than her.
Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with it if Marigold gold played WoW for however long this comic will last. Or spend long periods of time in her room, or whatever.
I don't want to see her change forcibly, just because I might not agree with some things she does. And I also wouldn't think it a good thing if people bothered her to do so.
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Unless of course she's a sociopath
The odds are very much against it in general, because Jeph almost never does sociopaths. Ms. Chatham is the only one I can think of.
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This would, however, hardly distinguish her from pretty much any life form in the history of ever.
FYP.
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Also, TAG, if you're gonna make a post that long it'd be helpful if it made a lick of sense. Just thinking out loud here. Lending something to someone who did you a good turn because you're grateful and a bit lonely hits me as just a pinch more likely than lending something to someone on the off chance that they moonlight as a book binder.
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I see at least two questions in this thread.
First question: What is Marigold really like?
My answer: She is introverted, friendly and honest.
She usually does not start conversations, but she responds, tries to be polite and does not try to lie (except situations where she consideres truth to be not polite, as in "I like bourbon"). Of course, her social skills are heavily underdeveloped (apparently the Magical Love Gentleman is not as realistic as QC), so she sometimes neglects or even hurts other people (unintentionally), but she is trying to be better. She is not a nicest person right now, but she shows some potential.
Second question: Why Angus says she is SO great?
My answer: He means it. She is improving and she does not have a single characteristic similar to his former girlfriend's. Marigold is not belittling, not abusive, not intentionally guilt-tripping. Marigold has probably never disrespected him. Of course, Marigold is too little witty and too much naive for him to feel attracted, but he can imagine some other guy being perfectly happy with Marigold (in a few years).
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Also, TAG, if you're gonna make a post that long it'd be helpful if it made a lick of sense. Just thinking out loud here. Lending something to someone who did you a good turn because you're grateful and a bit lonely hits me as just a pinch more likely than lending something to someone on the off chance that they moonlight as a book binder.
I was being pretty obviously facetious* with that comment. The point was she was dwelling in rat droppings and lent books to someone who actually respected them despite them not being her own. It's someone with little regard for her own stuff lending that stuff to someone with a near 0 probability of actually harming it, and she's seen that first hand.
Hell, college kids lending a textbook to a classmate are taking a financial risk orders of magnitude greater (now those are expensive). And that happens all the time.
*Or so I thought anyway... you're the second person to somehow take it literally...
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That's because your logic is hella circuitous and your writing style isn't really making it any clearer.
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That's because your logic is hella circuitous and your writing style isn't really making it any clearer.
What is circuitous about not praising someone who treats her belongings like crap lending out those belongings to someone who previously took a great deal of time and effort to not treat those belongings like crap?
Or not praising her for totally disrespecting the feelings and desires of Momo and Angus, or only doing Marigold things with Hanners (that covers all 3 friends).
Or not respecting her being completely disgusting toward Dale and Angus (emotional blackmail)?
Her most selfless act was lending out those manga. The point was that lending rat-pooped manga to an OCD neatfreak is not exactly a noble sacrifice. She's been here more than a year. She's made some personal progress... for her.. but she hasn't done much of anything noteworthy, much less praiseworthy. The best example anyone has managed to dredge up is a farce.
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It's circuitous when you allude to everything via sarcasm and indirect reference over 3/4s of an error filled page (and that's on my wide screen). You just demonstrated that you could have said it in a third of the space.
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It's circuitous when you allude to everything via sarcasm and indirect reference over 3/4s of an error filled page (and that's on my wide screen). You just demonstrated that you could have said it in a third of the space.
Only without responding to relevant quotes or with examples, it's the formatting and context that takes up space really.
To be fair to myself, I did a more concise version in the WCT that spawned this thread.
Edit: also to be fair I spend a lot of time on trains these days which means time is a non factor ;P
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I can't help but marvel at the trainwreck this argument's become (for want of a better expression, sorry). I never said Marigold was above average or exceptionally generous or mindblowingly kind or anything of the sort. What I'm trying to say is that Marigold's just at least okay. No more, but more to the point no less.
What is circuitous about not praising someone who treats her belongings like crap lending out those belongings to someone who previously took a great deal of time and effort to not treat those belongings like crap?
What is circuitous about it is that anyone else would look at it and go "yeah, that was nice of her" and move on, not try to come up with reasons why it doesn't really count. It's not a big deal and in the strip it wasn't made a big deal, but it counts for something, mostly because she didn't make a big deal out of it. Hannelore showed herself the type of person who takes good care of things, but then threatened to throw all her stuff out. She apologized, and she and Martin explained it with "Sorry, I've just got a serious mental condition." The idea that Marigold didn't take a risk from her own perspective is ridiculous.
Or not praising her for totally disrespecting the feelings and desires of Momo and Angus,
Once again, she's "disrespected" Momo's feelings once that I can think of, and her main objection wasn't that Momo wasn't paying attention to her, it was that Momo was being rude. This is echoed as true by Momo, Angus and Marigold, and confirmed by Jeph himself. As for Angus, once again it's made pretty clear Marigold probably isn't aware of how horrible she's being. You'd seemingly rather believe she's totally aware, but just kind of a sociopath, which is not just circuitous, it's also misinformed, as Marigold fits none of the criteria for any type of sociopath, not even the self-pity sociopath.
or only doing Marigold things with Hanners (that covers all 3 friends).
So you'd call going out and drinking a "Marigold thing"? Or if you're going to go the route of "she was forced to" (by the quasi-person she apparently doesn't care about the feelings of, no less), then how about drinking beer? I've been that guy at least twice, and trust me, if you hate beer that much you don't drink it unless you really want to be nice.
Or not respecting her being completely disgusting toward Dale and Angus (emotional blackmail)?
Hyperbole much? Angus I already covered, and as for Dale, the appropriate response to that situation is "Damn... she takes Warcraft way too seriously." Again, because she's awkward, and in this area a little stupid. Based on Dale's response upon meeting her later, he had a far more appropriate reaction than you did, he laughed it off.
If you still want to dislike Marigold so strongly, you are entitled, but I have to wonder if you actually subject the people in your life to the same set of standards or if you're just trying to make it clear you're one of those "I don't suffer fools" kind of guys. If all your friends do charity work and never self-pity and bake their loved ones brownies then I commend you for sticking to your standards, but I'd have to point out that that makes you the one with no sense of empathy. As a comedian I can't remember the name of once said, "Every group of friends has at least one completely awful one, and if you can't figure out who yours is, it's you."
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If Marigirl were suddenly blessed with social skills and started being generous, how would we tell?
What does she have to offer the other characters? What is there that a generous Marigold *could* do?
The only Marigold things that the other characters might enjoy having shared are anime, computer repair, and Web design help. She doesn't cook, or play an instrument, or sass-rap, or any of the other things the QC circle shares with each other.
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Evidence that she's fundamentally good: notice that she hasn't taken the approach of hating the whole world or turning her life into one long revenge.
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Marigold reminds me a little of Raven before QC (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=562).
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Ugh the point of the anime thing was that it wasn't a big deal. Between any other two characters, it would pass uncommented on. The only reason it was even brought up was because, despite not being a big deal its pretty much the only example of Marigold being particularly selfless. Whether it "counts" or not is irrelevant, it was a minor event with little else to put up there along side it. Meanwhile, there's a list a mile long of her being whiny / self-pitying and a bunch of examples of her being a pretty big asshole. The scales don't balance in her favor.
I'll be brief with the rest:
Being unaware of your actions does not excuse them; the incident with Momo and the expectations with Angus are big examples of "Marigold first". Not tipping a delivery guy is pretty rude in the States, slamming a door in his face was vile, guilt-trip makeouts* was worse. The non-stop pity party just makes her boring and unappealing.
Lending a few books is nice even if its low risk, but would be pretty much a nonevent to any other person / character. Quietly sitting on a couch watching your anime with someone is nice... I guess? Attending parties is nice... for Marigold.
Basically she's an empty character that doesn't actually do much more than pity-party. She's got a few examples of ok behavior and a lot of examples of whining and a couple examples of outright atrocious behavior / judgment. What reason do we have to actually like Marigold? There only seem to be people defending her because they feel sorry for her or her latest awkward moment relates to some awkward moment in their own past, but are either of those actually legitimately liking her as a character?
And no, despite most of my friends being major geeks/nerds/whathaveyou (incl. myself), despite a number of them being pretty big gamers (incl. myself), not one of them has reached the level of social ineptitude somehow attained by Marigold, nor would a friendship with someone like her seem particularly appealing. I wouldn't hate them because I wouldn't associate with them, but Marigold takes up a not-insignificant amount of time in a strip where I enjoy pretty much every other character. Nice ad hominem though.
*These were the two strips that pushed me to active dislike as opposed to grudging tolerance of a bland / whiny character.
Edit: these do get long.
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Hang on, lemme adjust this...
Meanwhile, there's a list a mile long of her being whiny / self-pitying and a bunch of examples of her being a pretty big asshole. The scales don't balance in her favor....Basically she's an empty character that doesn't actually do much more than pity-party. She's got a few examples of ok behavior and a lot of examples of whining and a couple examples of outright atrocious behavior / judgment.
Ok. So, we learn here (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1429) that Marigold, despite apparently being invited out, chooses instead to remain at home and pity party. In fact, she wouldn't have even gone out later if Momo hadn't threatened (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1460) her. (Marten later admits as much.) And then, of course, yeah, when Marigold tries to tell Momo about what a wonderful time she had, and how everyone was so nice to her, and how she was told she looks pretty, and Momo doesn't care...too bad she totally missed the point. From that point on, I'll admit I've had very little patience for Marigold. Then there's this thought:
Being unaware of your actions does not excuse them; the incident with Momo and the expectations with Angus are big examples of "Marigold first". Not tipping a delivery guy is pretty rude in the States, slamming a door in his face was vile, guilt-trip makeouts* was worse. The non-stop pity party just makes her boring and unappealing.
This is sort of the crux of it all. The thing that bothers me the most about Marigold is that overall, she isn't that friendly, that nice, or that considerate. Everything ends up being about her. As of right now, I think she's probably the most selfish person in the comic (Tai is probably second now...Faye at third, maybe. Faye's really improved considerably in that matter.) and I'm not convinced we've seen evidence that Marigold is moving away from being selfish. If anything, I feel like she's becoming moreso, and the pity party's are becoming worse and worse (guilting Angus, and now sitting by herself moping after finding out the guy who already told her he doesn't want to date her is interested in another girl.)
This isn't to say that she can indeed grow, and maybe she will, but I think she's getting worse, at least now. This is the sort of behavior I'd expect from a middle schooler, maybe an early high schooler. Then again, I've read that there are just stages every person goes through, and people will go through those stages. Sure, there's general time frames, but Marigold's maybe been stunted (due to bullying?) since middle school, and so now she has to deal with this phase now.
EDIT: I just wanted to offer a counter perspective on this:
Marigold's shown herself to be altruistic and caring on a number of occasions...as evidenced by the beginning of this strip (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1628), she shows a genuine interest in the social lives of her new friends (When has Faye ever discussed her personal life, sober or drunk, without some kind of prompting?).
Alternately, Marigold doesn't particularly care about Faye's boyfriend exploits, but instead was hoping to let Faye know that she (Marigold) is into Angus. Or, she was hoping that Faye's boyfriend info would help her on the Angus front. Or even, that if she let Faye know she was into Angus, Faye would leave. I know lots of people who ask a question about someone where the intent is not to hear about what that person says, but rather, to talk about themselves (such people are also not that enjoyable to talk to). Marigold's inconsiderate enough to do this, I think. Also, her rather blithe "Bye Faye" gives some indication that she's glad Faye's leaving, and that she doesn't particularly notice Faye's obvious discomfort. (In fact, there's a lot of interaction between Faye and Angus that Marigold seems to ignore.)
Here (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1493) she shows that she cares enough for Hanners' feelings to make sure she's not too shook up by her guild-mates' comments (someone please correct me on the term if it's wrong)
Alternately, she's tripping over words to say something, anything, that will keep Hanners from not being her friend anymore. (Not condemning that reaction, btw.) I'm just saying, it could be read that, rather than caring particularly for Hanners' feelings, Marigold is only thinking of herself and what she can say to keep this friend.
here (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1619) she seems genuinely sorry she inadvertently insulted Dora
Again, rather than being sorry about insulting Dora, this is more of a "pity party" that she likes to have for herself. "I'm sorry I was dumb, I just don't know how to deal with people, don't be mad, it's all my fault, I'm the only one here who can't deal with this," etc. I'm not saying that Marigold didn't feel sorry for her behavior, but I am saying it fits that Marigold is shaming herself and portraying herself as the problem - she felt sorry for her behavior, not necessarily for hurting Dora's feelings.
as she does here (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1621)
Same thing as above. Apologizing/pity partying about how she's so terrible with all this stuff, and so on. Whether or not Marigold actually believes that about herself, or if she's saying it to get validation is not something I'm sure of.
At any rate, I just wanted to throw those thoughts out there. Marigold may be trying, but I think she's got a looooong way to go yet.
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Ok. So, we learn here (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1429) that Marigold, despite apparently being invited out, chooses instead to remain at home and pity party. In fact, she wouldn't have even gone out later if Momo hadn't threatened (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1460) her. (Marten later admits as much.) And then, of course, yeah, when Marigold tries to tell Momo about what a wonderful time she had, and how everyone was so nice to her, and how she was told she looks pretty, and Momo doesn't care...too bad she totally missed the point. From that point on, I'll admit I've had very little patience for Marigold. Then there's this thought:
Having been in that same situation, being invited out once at a time where you don't want to shouldn't mean that you never get invited out again. Without knowing how many times it occurred before Angus gave up, it seems a bit unreasonable. The strip in question doesn't seem to imply that she was invited that particular time, otherwise Angus would've probably phrased his comment differently. The cut at the end just shows that she wishes she could have more from life and doesn't really realise how easy it could be.
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Well, I'd say that Angus at least asked her to go out twice - he lists two reasons she refused. And there's only so many times you wanna invite a person out before you get tired of hearing no. Also, the raid reason is one she tried to use with Marten too - would have worked if Momo hadn't taken charge. And you're right, it doesn't appear as if she was asked to hang out with them this time. I think that was Marten's point a bit - none of them really knew Marigold at this point, which is why it makes sense Angus would be the one to invite her (especially since it seems like he initiated the whole thing by wanting to buy Hanners some drinks), and Angus had already given up on her, as explained to Marten.
As far as the cut at the end - still doesn't give me too much sympathy for her. She did turn the invitations down, and like I said, would have turned down Marten's too if Momo hadn't intervened. For her, it doesn't always seem to be a "don't want to" situation (at least every time) as it is a "scared to" situation. If she won't take the risk, I don't wanna see her sitting around moping about it.
However! Seems to be changing, so good on that, I guess.
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guilt-trip makeouts* was worse.
I seem to not understand this particular guilt-trip.
Angus was the first one to start asking awkward questions.
Marigold was only trying to fing reasons why Angus turned her down.
It was actually an ideal situation for Angus to inform Marigold about Faye.
Marigold just lacks balls to ask as directly as Angus have (done) and she did not mean guilt-trip intentionally.
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guilt-trip makeouts* was worse.
I seem to not understand this particular guilt-trip.
Angus was the first one to start asking awkward questions.
Marigold was only trying to fing reasons why Angus turned her down.
It was actually an ideal situation for Angus to inform Marigold about Faye.
Marigold just lacks balls to ask as directly as Angus have (done) and she did not mean guilt-trip intentionally.
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1677
Point blank asks him if guilt tripping him into her would work.
Panels 3, 4, and 6 specifically.
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After being surprised by the suggestion, denying that's what she was doing, and apologizing for creating the impression. Even if her question wasn't meant to be played for laughs, it's more desperate than manipulative. Not that desperate is likable, but it's a different kind of problem.
Is Marigold even socially skilled enough to be manipulative?
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After being surprised by the suggestion, denying that's what she was doing, and apologizing for creating the impression. Even if her question wasn't meant to be played for laughs, it's more desperate than manipulative. Not that desperate is likable, but it's a different kind of problem.
Is Marigold even socially skilled enough to be manipulative?
You could maybe maaaaaayyyyybe play off the "Would that work" as a really bad joke. That's why I included panel 3 where she blatantly is guilt tripping him, too. Justifying away those two panels is bending way the hell backward to "save" Marigold though.
And that's excluding the "pity me" in panel 2 or the short dress with a lot of cleavage to a casual youtube party.
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You could maybe maaaaaayyyyybe play off the "Would that work" as a really bad joke. That's why I included panel 3 where she blatantly is guilt tripping him, too. Justifying away those two panels is bending way the hell backward to "save" Marigold though.
Considering panel 6: Talking about guilt tripping is something entirely different from an actual guilt tripping. But, looking cute when blushing, that maybe could be used for guilt tripping. Of course, it is again unintentional.
And that's excluding the "pity me" in panel 2 or the short dress with a lot of cleavage to a casual youtube party.
Yes. Marigold has grown from her usual "I am such a loser" attitude and unwashed look. Maybe some time in the future, she could have a power to remind Angus how his not-telling-about-Faye did hurt her, and use this guilt trip to steal some of the attention he has for Faye. But even then, I am not sure she would be willing to do that.
Anyway, subject of this thread is about fundamental character (as opposed to superficial).
Oh, but maybe you were not talking about her fundamental character at all:
Being unaware of your actions does not excuse them; the incident with Momo and the expectations with Angus are big examples of "Marigold first". Not tipping a delivery guy is pretty rude in the States, slamming a door in his face was vile, guilt-trip makeouts* was worse. The non-stop pity party just makes her boring and unappealing.
Maybe you were just telling us how she pisses you off so much.
Yes, she could do better. (Assuming she has ever been at the housemates party (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1363).)
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You could maybe maaaaaayyyyybe play off the "Would that work" as a really bad joke. That's why I included panel 3 where she blatantly is guilt tripping him, too. Justifying away those two panels is bending way the hell backward to "save" Marigold though.
Considering panel 6: Talking about guilt tripping is something entirely different from an actual guilt tripping. But, looking cute when blushing, that maybe could be used for guilt tripping. Of course, it is again unintentional.
Panel 3: Actual guilt tripping, planned or not.
Panel 6: If not written off as a joke, implicitly condoning the idea that guilt-tripping (emotional blackmail) someone into a relationship or sex is an OK move.
The rest of your responses are sort of only tangentially related to what you quote from me so I don't know how to respond. Wearing a revealing party dress to casual night in is not growing up (and why would a social shut in have such a thing anyway); she's dressed appropriately to all previous outings so you can't just write it off as her normal social cluelessness. Plus I was generously excluding it from my point anyway, she already incriminated herself enough before that. Calling her selfish, rude, whiny, and morally questionable is about her character. So... yeah?
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Is Marigold even socially skilled enough to be manipulative?
Yes. Toddlers are socially skilled enough to be manipulative. She probably does not realize she is being manipulative because she is either not capable of being that self-reflective or she chooses not to be.
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BINGO!!
It's the self-awareness thing. Remember the near-miss epiphany? She's just that un-self aware (self-unaware?) to not realize when she's being manipulative, or just how clueless she really is about what's going on around her (Fangus).
There are people like this in real life.
As I've said before, I'm the father of one. Watching her blunder along making painfully obvious social mistakes because of it is one of the most painful things I endure on a daily basis.
But I also know how sweet and wonderful she is, and could be to others, if only she could get to the point of being able to express it. So, I guess I'm biased in Marigolds favor through personal experience.
BTW, she follows the comic. And is SOOO unaware of herself that she doesn't identify with Marigold! :?
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Not caring isn't the same thing as not understanding.
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Not caring isn't the same thing as not understanding.
As is the reverse.
In fact, I suspect that today's comic probably confirms it: she doesn't realize that Tai (and Dora) were ogling her in that dress.
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What is Marigold's fundamental character? She's a somewhat socially inept female with pulled back hair, glasses, and a less than perfect fashion sense. In other words, she's the female protagonist in just about every teen "Make her a prom queen!" movie. If I didn't think Jeph were above such trite garbage, I'd sense a Hollywood makeover coming up in the very near future.
Jake: What about her?
[indicating hunchback girl walking by]
Austin: So baby's got a little back. Hunch, that is. Naah, way too easy.
Jake: OK.
[indicates hippy albino girl playing guitar]
Albino Folk Singer: [singing] I have no pigment...
Austin: Any girl with a guitar is hot.
Albino Folk Singer: [continues singing] I need sunscreen...
Austin: Granted, she's a hippy albino. She could still be prom queen.
Jake: OK, uh, what about the Fratelli sisters?
[indicates awkward Siamese twins conjoined at the head]
Austin: So they're slightly disfigured and connected at the head. But combined, those two make up one pretty decent chick.
Reggie Ray: Yeah, I'd do 'em.
Austin: I know you would, Reggie Ray. But no, I'm looking for somebody who's really messed up. I'm talking about a real shitbomb.
[Janie Briggs walks by]
Austin: Well, bombs away!
Jake: No, no, no, no, anyone but her! Not... Janie Briggs! Guys, she's got glasses and a ponytail! Aw, look at that, she's got paint on her overalls, what is that? Guys, there's no way she could be prom queen!
Malik: Damn! That shit's whack!
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Good point. And being a girl with glasses and pulled back hair and social anxiety, that's always bothered me. While a lot of us withdrawn nerd girls would like to be a little more outgoing and pretty, we don't all want to become a cookie cutter image of conventional 'beauty'. At least, not most of the time.
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The only reason it was even brought up was because, despite not being a big deal its pretty much the only example of Marigold being particularly selfless.
It's also pretty much the only example of Marigold not being in unknown territory. Basically, the only reason I brought it up in the first place was purely for psychoanalysis. When trying to analyze a person's fundamental nature, you should never base it on how they act outside of their element, and so far almost all of Marigold's appearances have been just that: Out of her element. So what I'm saying is that, on the rare time we've seen her inside her own element, she performs altruistic acts without really thinking.
Being unaware of your actions does not excuse them; the incident with Momo and the expectations with Angus are big examples of "Marigold first".
I think being unaware of your actions is the only thing that does excuse them, although that goes both ways. Marigold helped Hannelore overcome a major roadblock with her OCD, but it doesn't count because she had no idea she was doing it. In that exact same vein, her being selfish can be at least partially overlooked since she's shown to also have no idea she's doing it.
Not tipping a delivery guy is pretty rude in the States, slamming a door in his face was vile,
Not sure why you specified the States, it's just as rude in Canada...
Anyway, I think Dale's reaction to it, and to Marigold period, is possibly the most reasonable out of any of the cast and most of the people here. At first he was kind of shocked, but he never seemed to get to offended because he realized there was just something profoundly bizarre about it. So instead his response seems to be to laugh it off and challenge her semi-seriously. You've described her behaviour toward Dale as vile, disgusting and rude, but you have yet to describe it in the way that should jump out to everyone as soon as they read it: Really fuckin' weird. Jeph has said that QC exists in a universe far sillier than the real one. This is why Faye was able to throw Angus across a bar with no serious injury, Faye was able to hit a vein opening a tin of tomatoes without losing consciousness, hospitals keep punching interns on staff, store windows advertise "touristy bullshit" and Steve works for the US Government Department of Kicking Your Ass. I'd venture a guess and say the more outrageous something is, the less offensive it is to the people in the QC Universe. In all likelihood, Dale woke up that morning, walked into work some time later, said hello to his coworker the superhero, then delivered pizza to all myriad of people, some of whom were probably naked, some of whom might not have actually stopped fucking while he was at the door, some of whom he himself might've fucked, some of whom probably had some kind of exotic pet they kept trying to show him and convince him to stick his head in the mouth of. Point is, once the initial shock wore off, getting no tip and a door slammed in his face over WoW shit was probably the funniest thing that happened to him all day, or possibly second to the couple who also slammed the door in his face for not yelling "Albatross" when he arrived at the door. The point is, it's a weird universe and getting a door slammed in your face probably isn't as big a deal there as it is here.
guilt-trip makeouts* was worse.
Yeah, it was pretty shitty of her, but in a way it kind of lets on to how sad her life's been and why she deserves sympathy. Let's say for a second that you had no conscience whatsoever and didn't give a fuck about the emotional well-being of anyone around you, would you ever try to guilt-trip someone into making out with you? Of course not, it'd feel hollow and the shame would kill you. The fact that she doesn't seem to care proves she really does think that poorly of herself, and that it's not just an act that she milks.
Basically she's an empty character that doesn't actually do much more than pity-party.
Once again, out of her element. Being thrust into social situations has exposed all of her shortcomings, and she's failing to redeem herself in her own mind. Playing WoW all day, she felt unfulfilled, but at least she felt worthy. Now not so much, and the learning curve is steep when the examiner is yourself. If you could come out of that without self-pitying, you're a stronger person than a lot of people.
What reason do we have to actually like Marigold? There only seem to be people defending her because they feel sorry for her or her latest awkward moment relates to some awkward moment in their own past, but are either of those actually legitimately liking her as a character?
Yes to both actually. You can't feel sorry for someone if you don't like them. The reason we have to like her is that, as I've demonstrated, there's a case to be made that there's a genuinely nice person somewhere in there, even if right now she's a nice person doing not nice things. Which is possible when there are other factors, like a lack of self-awareness.
And no, despite most of my friends being major geeks/nerds/whathaveyou (incl. myself), despite a number of them being pretty big gamers (incl. myself), not one of them has reached the level of social ineptitude somehow attained by Marigold
But a few days ago, you said she wasn't actually that socially inept.
I wouldn't hate them because I wouldn't associate with them, but Marigold takes up a not-insignificant amount of time in a strip where I enjoy pretty much every other character.
Shall we delve into the transgressions of the other characters? This post is already long enough as it is, so no maybe another time.
Nice ad hominem though.
I apologize for the poor wording of my comment. What I meant to say was that if your standards were as high as you say, you'd be a prick, but they're not, so you're not a prick. This was proven correct by your statement about enjoying the other characters.
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... on the rare time we've seen her inside her own element, she performs altruistic acts without really thinking.
For example, helping out guildmates even when said guildmates are not pulling their own weight.
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I want to address the issue of whether Marigold is a sociopath or is genuinely as self-loathing as she says, but since it's so much of a purely speculative issue, it's going to end up as more of a psychological case study than anything else. Should I put it here or create a whole new topic?
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Hey Ian
I'll try to make this brief, so excuse the formatting. Wiped out from work project. Numbers for points.
1) If you define the world outside her apartment as outside her element that doesn't leave us with a whole lot. I would argue the initial Dale exchange should be in her element as its about both WoW and junk food delivery. Dale was hurt enough to devote easily 300 hours to get a petty meaningless revenge. Also in her room alone with Momo.
She's also not terribly good at handling her (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1492) raid (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1501) guild (http://twitter.com/marigoldfarmer) / online life. And as a partial reply to Is it Cold, she's not doing it for them, she's doing it for her (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1597). Every guild has it's deadweight, its a fact of virtual life ;P
To her credit, she performed reasonably off camera at the comic con. Although she does freak out (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1527) and then pout at Martin's expense (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1528).
But, as I said a while ago, friendships are give and take. Community is give and take. How one handles oneself outside of an optimal environment is just as, if not more, important than how one handles oneself at one's peak.
2) I think this is a philosophic disagreement outside the purview of the discussion so I hesitate to get into it. Refusing to accept, analyze, or think about the consequences of your actions is not a positive trait. The only excuse, to me, would be an actual handicap such as Asperger's or other forms of autism.
I don't think the Hanners example is valid though. Marigold's actions put Hanners in an uncomfortable position, perhaps because Marigold wasn't thinking about Hanners again (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1490) (granted in this case it is perhaps excusable). Hanners then overcame her own impulses. It wasn't the intended or unintended act by Marigold -- which should have resulted in a flipped out Hanners -- but a separate and distinct act of suppression by Hanners (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1633), which is even visible.
3) I brought up the States because some other countries -- notably Aussieland -- don't share our absurd tipping system and QC seems to have a broad international readership. So I don't know how one from there would perceive the act of tip shirking.
And as I said ealier, Dale seems to have committed himself to hundreds of hours worth of revenge. But Dale's response is irrelevant. It was rude, and it was vile, and whether Dale is a good enough guy to let it go or not doesn't matter.
4) If I had no conscience? Sure, if it got me what I wanted. Isn't that the definition of no conscience? If you grant her that it was reflexive, unconscious guilt-tripping, that makes it worse; she can then enjoy what she's after without recognizing that she only has it because she manipulated someone else. It also means her natural, unconscious decisions are pretty evil.
5) Again, semi-philosophical disagreement, see end of point 1.
6) I disagree, you can feel sorry for people you don't even know, much less like. That's the whole premise behind almost every single charity promotion anywhere. Hell I feel sorry for Marigold; doesn't mean I think she's a good person (obviously). Is everyone in Hati a saint, or everyone in New Orleans? No. But I still donated. Same with blood donations, which I feel should be freely available to anyone in need.
7) I... never said she wasn't? Not that I can recall anyway. I write these posts in different states of exhaustion as I travel generally so I may be forgetting. She's inept. That could excuse saying things in the wrong way, but it doesn't excuse the intent or general meaning behind those things. It just makes it easier to see her innate selfishness / manipulations.
8 hates emoticons) Other characters aren't angels either, I freely admit that. But they all do have reasons to like them that outweigh their problems. Even if you don't like them (Sven or Faye, for instance), they are at least generally interesting. Being interesting characters may break the 4th wall as an analysis of their character but in the context of the reader, where one focus means the exclusion of another, its at least a better read. Hell, by 300 strips in the "original 4" all had at least some reason to genuinely like them, even with faults.
9) Thanks ^^ I love to debate but I dislike making things, especially internet things, personal.
/end_list
Anyway I still have yet to really hear a reason why anyone should really like Marigold, as a person or a character. No one was able to come up for a good reason why Angus said she was so awesome other than flattery, and the rest of the QC cast only seems to be able to think of and compliment her chest (to her face or otherwise).
Sure, there may be some potential great person buried deep inside, but everyone has the potential to change. Humans are wonderfully plastic that way, and the world is a strange place full of life altering events, and the QC world is even stranger. And hell, as I said before, I'm certain Jeph will "redeem" Marigold at some point. Maybe knowing Dora wants to moterboat her will get her into therepy and get her to make some real effort for a metoric rise to a crowning moment of awesome (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/SugarWiki/CrowningMomentOfAwesome?from=Main.CrowningMomentOfAwesome). But currently, she's a pretty bad-to-meh person and a boring character. Her involvement in the QC group is more a testament to the character of the other characters, rather than her own.
Fake Edit Cause It Updated While I was Typing: At your latest Ian, I don't think she is a sociopath*, in that I don't think there is anything preventing her from at least normal levels of empathy. She could be some level of autistic, but until that is confirmed I think she is just a generally unimpressive person who refused to put in the effort to be a good one.
* Yes I know I called her that in some post, but it was also in the context of a joking response with an accompanying emoticon and all :P
Edit 2: Because it's not worth a full new post.
@Is it cold below, I think it's implied that Angus was either joking/lying or was living elsewhere at the time. Housemates. Not roommate or suitemate, but implying living in a (presumably rented) house with multiple other people.
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Marigold has not left behind the trail of broken used people that a sociopath would have, but there is such a thing as a destructive personality that lures people in by inviting pity (reference: "The Psychopath Next Door").
Edit: she did show enough empathy and concern for Angus to celebrate his breakup by throwing a party (1363).
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All right, here you go:
WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT MARIGOLD
(EDITED to put into more appropriate grouping)
Physical/Mental:
• She lives near Marten's apartment in Northampton.
• She has either freckles or facial marks (probably acne) on her right cheek.
• She wears glasses (we don't know if it's for fashion or for sight).
• She generally wears her hair down and slightly over her face.
• According to Momo, she is "absent-minded" and doesn't clean as much as she should. (She admits to this later.) Proof of this: she had 10-year old Pocky under her bed - FULL OF RAT POOPS.
• Also, she has little regard for her physical well-being (self issues). She tends to be very, VERY messy (a "PET" rat?)
• She freaked out as Hannelore started cleaning her room.
• She pretty much watched anime and played video games in college, like she does now.
• She has some Yaoi and other Manga posters on her wall.
• Jeph has said that "Marigold isn't very self-aware." He also has suggested that "The last thing my comic needs is another super-detached female character who is constantly self-analyzing and quipping about everything she says."
• Marigold has a weird sense of humor – one that's lost on Momo.
• She can be melodramatic at times (per Dora)
• She doesn't realize how her boobs look to others (even in a Victorian corset)
• Marigold farts when she's been seated for a while.
• Marigold thinks she's fat and smelly, and has bad skin, and her nose is too big.
• She isn't entirely trusting of people (she had to ask Angus if he was "just messing with" her with the “pretty” comment).
• When she's feeling horrible about herself, she hides under her blanket on her bed.
• Angus is right: "you're just a little shaky on the self-esteem front."
• Marigold also blushes easily.
• She was embarassed by the whole situation at NRRDCON.
• Hannelore thinks she’s smart anyways.
• She started trying to be less of a shut-in by going out to a movie with Angus.
• She does try to be passively manipulative at times: she wanted to watch some of the MLG with Angus, and gave him the Sad Marigold face when he initially declined.
• She does have a weird sense of humor (I'll djo noshing but shmile! I promishe!)
• She did get a haircut that gave her “bangs” instead of just long hair; she wanted it to look like Rushuna Tendo. Stylist had no idea who that was.
• She's not very good on witty repartee... (I'll wash YOU more than twice a year! B-because you're a STUPID JERK! Who SMELLS!)
• Marigold: "I'm NOT a shut-in. I'm just introverted."
• Marigold looks kinda cute with dual ponytails.
• She doesn't like being barged in on, or being made fun of.
• She went to a regular high school – where she didn't learn dancing or social etiquette.
• She "knows what the sun is" (Stupid Faye.)
• “I'm fat, stupid, pathetic and ugly and...” (Hannelore yells at her for this attitude) “...See? I AM pathetic. Even YOU are mad at me.”
• She has a death-grip hug.
• Her hangovers last a few days (and pocky doesn't help); Momo has to occasionally kick her in the pants to get her going.
• Sometimes she just wants to lay in bed; Momo has to use "scatological judo" to get her out of bed.
• Sometimes she feels like she's always doing something retarded.
• She still thinks she's an idiot over Angus.
• All she really wants is somebody to be nice to her and pay attention, and... y'know. "Nobody's ever done that before."
• She doesn't understand why she shouldn't like a guy just because he's nice to her.
• She'd settle for a guy being nice to her just to get in her pants. (Welcome to Marigold-Land... NOTHING ever goes the way you want it to.)
• She has tried Guilt Tripping to get Angus to change his mind: "You could if you wanted to… Uh...would that work?” (DAMMIT MARIGOLD)
• She suddenly realizes after Dora made her laugh about the whole Boob thing that she's okay with everything!
Likes/Dislikes
• She is a fan of Yaoi manga (note the "YAOI ZONE" t-shirt) and Yaoi Anime.
• She likes ramen soups and pocky candy.
• She has mangas, "toys", video games.
• Marigold likes the compelling and nuanced storyline of anime.
• Marigold doesn't like negative commentary about Magical Love Gentleman.
• She owns a "SCIENCE: It's a Verb Now" t-shirt
• She doesn't like squirrels. (I don't CARE how you CAUGHT HIM, get him OUT FROM UNDER MY BED!)
• Her "side" of WOW is evident by her "HORDE RULES" t-shirt.
• She has Badtz-Maru panties, with the frilly (OH MY GOD GIVE ME THAT!)
• She has a Pokemon-themed cap.
• She has a white "I (heart) HARUHI" hoodie.
• She also has a "DIR EN GRAY" t-shirt.
• Her opinion of Nerd-Con: "Spend the entire day surrounded by greasy, awkward dorks arguing about anime and hitting each other with foam swords?" (Let’s Do THIS.)
• She won a stuffed Sosuke doll (and yes, Dora, it's anatomically correct.)
• ...and she did NOT know what to say when she saw Momo doing something with her Sosuke doll!
• Another T-shirt: EVA-01
• She has a photo of Red Robot from Diesel Sweeties on the wall of their apartment, near the entrance.
• White Words On A Black Shirt (gotta love it).
• She has a little pink manga kitty wallet.
• She also has an ULTRA COOL "xkcd" t-shirt!
• She also has a "MEH" t-shirt (similar to Marten’s “TEH” shirt).
• Hannelore seems to remember seeing a katana in Marigold's room.
• She learned her lesson: NO BOURBON.
Computers, AnthroPC’s and Gaming:
• She is the owner of a Sony model HPC-4100x series AnthroPC named Momo (we first met Momo in 1298; Marigold’s first appearance was 1413)
• She is knowledgeable about AnthroPC's (1412); and knows how to do diagnostics on them. She recognized that Pintsize was a government-issue chassis. She fixed Pintsize when he tried to "rewire" himself.
• She is an avid player of World of Warcraft.
• She can burp all her WoW characters' names, but it takes 10 minutes and a two-liter of Coke.
• She has a copy of Pintsize's Hentai pictures on her laptop (she copied over the directory when “fixing” him).
• Concerned for AnthroPC's, "make sure you're not secretly ABUSING him." ("Does Faye... often get this violent with Pintsize?” (sometimes more concern than she does herself or other people)
• Discovered what Pintsize grabs first when he's booted up... ("You're acquitted, and I'm sorry about the new dent.")
• Told Marten that Pintsize's chassis could be worth four to five grand; Could put current chassis on eBay, replace w/$200 civilian model, keep the profit.
• Marigold has seen tech demos of Fujitsu APC's; "Uncanny Valley with an writhing erection."
• One time during a raid, her guild leader farted loud enough they all could hear it over voice chat. They all started laughing so hard, they all got killed.
• She enjoyed going out with the others because they were "so NICE". (People said she looked PRETTY - squeee!)
• She treats Momo like a child at times (have a CIVIL CONVERSATION or you are GROUNDED!)
• She is very good at putting a custom PC rig together... though Momo didn't understand the "Squirrel" joke.
• She is of the Horde faction in WoW; she plays on Warsong server; her character is at LEVEL CAP and has top-tier equipment. Her sign-in handle is "MariGoldFarm".
• She thinks Angus can be such a jerk sometimes.
• She resents the other girls in her WOW guild; they’re there more for the social interaction and she ends up having to compensate when they're doing raids.
• She didn't realize that a lot of the "slutty pictures" that the other two girls in her guild post of themselves on forums are camera angle, lighting and photoshopping… nor did she know that she could use the clone stamp tool in PS to get rid of her pimples. (She STILL thinks Angus is such a jerk!)
• Marigold danced when she completed her armor in WoW, and was joined by Angus – who taught her a few dance moves.
• She doesn't like using someone else's laptop. It's like wearing someone else's pants or underwear.
• She's the web designer for her dad's business website. "She pays taxes and everything!" She made the (rather insensitive) comment that “the code for the CoD website isn't bad. I mean, for an amateur. That kind of HTML was CUTTING EDGE in, like, 1995.”
• After her “scatalogical judo” comment, Marigold doesn’t want Momo to hang out with Pintsize anymore.
• Momo rides in the hood of her sweats when they go places, but Marigold can get too focused on arguing with Momo that she doesn't see things.
• She does NOT like finding out that her Pizza Delivery Guy (Dale) is ALLIANCE SCUM! ("NO TIPS FOR ALLIANCE SCUM!")
• She DEFINITELY wouldn’t go out with an alliance ROGUE like Dale. (She's desperate, but she has some standards.)
Social (Overall):
• Very tight with her money (doesn't want to spend money on things like maids or groceries).
• Her first response to almost ANYTHING social is, "Can't got a Raid."
• Marigold doesn't know how to talk to people!
• When Momo accidentally blew up her PC, she came THISclose to a personal epiphany... but then she realized she had to call her guild leader and explain what happened! (Angus didn't say anything, though; Momo suggested "The epiphany, coupled with the shock of losing her computer could kill her!")
• One time, in eighth grade, she got invited to a pool party. They hit her in the face with a pool noodle, she got a bloody nose, broke her glasses, started crying and had to go home. (Conversation occasionally stops around Marigold.)
• She hates Pintsize ("boob terrorist").
• She won the MLG trivia contest at Smif’s NRRD Con – getting every single question right! (Hanners thinks she's smart.)
• She mumbled something incredibly nerdy and unintelligible – and then promptly turned and fell on her face – when she met the artist who draws Magical Love Gentleman.
• Marigold still thinks she has to apologize for every outing (She was awkward and dumb and stuff.)
• She had a dissected frog put down her shirt once. (It's the "benchmark" of "bad things" for her.)
• She has no idea who Thurston Moore is.
• She occasionally runs into people, and accidentally walks off with their book… like, say, Sven’s book about the Crusades?
• Tai LOVES M's boobs. (Dora does too, it seems); Will thinks she has a Homeric set. (Penelope takes exception at that.)
• She and Dale “confronted” each other over their WOW connections. Marten thinks she was fighting – or maybe flirting. Or both.
Social (Hannelore):
• She forgave Hanners about yelling at her over her messy room.
• Marigold got Hannelore hooked on Yaoi (Hanners had mixed her Yaoi in with the rest of her Manga).
• Marigold shared a Yaoi book (Magical Love Gentleman #18) with Hannelore.
• Momo had to intervene when Marigold wanted to watch anime with Hannelore.
• Momo had to intervene when Hannelore wanted Marigold to shower first!
• According to Hannelore, Marigold is a shut-in – a bit like how she used to be.
• Hanners and Marigold – FRIENDZORZ! But it’s an awkward one (Oscar and Felix, anyone?)
• Hannelore got past the “Can’t got a raid” by saying the magic words: "Oh, can I watch? I've never seen one of these raid thingys..." Marigold tried to push it off as "boring".
• Much to Hannelore's horror, she forgets about things when she’s online.
• She referred to Hanners as her "friend" to her WOW buddies.
• NO WE ARE NOT GONNA "LEZ OUT". (That nearly made Hanners choke on her Pocky!) “They were only joking! I'm not even INTO girls!”
• “It's okay if you are” (of course, Hannelore is mostly asexual)
• Hanners and Marigold have had the same number of boyfriends – none. (Hanners, however, thinks Marigold has had more boyfriends than she actually has.)
• Marigold and Hanners both have the "unaware" thing going for them.
• Hanners thinks Marigold is pretty. Hannelore asked Angus if Marigold was pretty. (This, in retrospect, was not one of Hannelore's better ideas.) He agreed. ("I see a smiiiiiiiiile" "No! No you don't! You see nother! Sh-shut up!”)
• Marigold actually made Hannelore overcome her OCD briefly with a hangover hug – and then made warp 9 to the bathroom to puke! (Angus: "I've literally never seen a human being move that fast.") Hannelore had her own chance to "mother" Marigold over this situation.
• Marigold promises: no getting the wrong idea and try to make out with her. Hanners promises: won't get so fixated on her that she murders her and makes a suit out of her skin!
Social (Marten and Dora):
• Asked about payment from Marten for fixing Pintsize.
• She thinks Marten has weird friends. (Hanners in specific)
• She tried to get out of going out with Marten & company, but Momo forced her (Okay, Momo didn't force her more than threatened her).
• Marigold struggled to just come into the bar to meet Marten & company.
• Social ineptitude sign #1: Marigold asked for Mountain Dew at the Bar
• Social ineptitude sign #2: She doesn’t really know what kind of beer she likes (a yellow one?). Marten got her a "beer sampler" to try – and that’s when she determined she doesn't like beer much - not even with chocolate in it (and Marty's OK with that).
• Faye pointed something out at the bar: Marten was the first boy who's given her the time of day in YEARS.
• She sees herself as a "dumb ol' fat ol' nerd" and she thinks Faye, Marty and company are "cool"
• She got a bloody nose (okay, "threw a clot!") when Marten dressed up as Ichiro (and she does think Marten makes a good Ichiro).
• She's not too keen on the thought of Dora wearing Faye's underwear...
• She doesn't like sudden, unexpected Dora Hugs.
• Dora still likes to mother Marigold, especially when she looks shell-shocked. Of course, when she found out that she had Sven’s book, she assumed the worst and dressed him down.
• Marigold came to the YouTube party (in a dress?) after a brief pit-stop for a wardrobe malfunction.
• Dora promises she'll be up-front with her, and not hide things from her to make her feel better.
• Dora reveals that they've been talking behind her back all night about her BOOBS. Marigold finds this HILARIOUS. Dora actually offers to take her bra shopping.
Social (Angus and Faye):
• Angus is her roommate.
• She apparently threw a party when Angus dumped his last girlfriend. (1363)
• Marigold declined to go with Angus and company out to the Horrible Revelation for drinks - and was home bored (1429).
• Marigold thought Angus was an anime-hating "JERKFACE"
• Faye dubbed her "Mar-bear" (though she hates that)
• She wasn't sure what to do when Angus asked her to go to a movie. (Shower first?)
• She didn't realize Angus has known her since college. To Angus, she was the "weird chick who never leaves her room” back in college. His friend Chad was convinced she was a secret fetish model or camwhore…. of course, he was a bit obsessed by this. (Oh my god why are you TELLING me this?!)
• She convinced Angus to watch some MLG with her by using the Sad Marigold face.
• She did try to have "nonconsensual snuggles" with Angus, but she covered up. (except for her blush).
• Angus thinks she looks cute with bangs.
• She does try to make Angus feel better after the Faye’s Father episode (I don't think you're an insensitive ###hole)
• "My weirdo shut-in gamer roommate still likes me! HooRAY!" (NOW he's an insensitive ###hole...)
• She doesn't dance much, but is a pretty good dancer (according to Angus). She always wondered why Angus was going out for coffee.
• When Angus mentioned "hot chick make it for me", she had thoughts of Magical Maid Mari-chan...
• She offers to share a bottle of bourbon with Faye and Angus. (Looking back, that wasn't probably a good idea.) She'd never tried bourbon before. (And Momo doesn't have the strength to hold her head up out of the toilet...) Her first sip of bourbon was... interesting. [Houghkk! Glough! Hwah! Hwaugh! *pant* *pant* *pant* NO I'M FINE IT WAS GOOD I LIKE IT] Dinner, drinks AND a show!
• She's never been out on a date or anything. Even Faye thinks that's criminal.
• She gave Angus drunk kisses ("I think we're more than that") and a hand to the boob... but he gave her the "just friends" routine...and she ran off crying.
• She thought Angus actually LIKED her, and that he just feels bad for her because she's pathetic.
• Marigold still thinks she's an idiot for what she did to Angus... and that he doesn't like her. He assures her: He likes being her friend... and keep being her friend (and only her friend).
• The whole "Thing for Angus" was something recent. See... he was NICE to her. And paid attention. "Nobody's ever done that before."
• “How what is with Faye?” And that’s when Tai spilled the beans about Fayengus. (She doesn't have a hard-reset button, does she?)
• Why didn't anyone TELL her about Faye and Angus? People coulda told her. Not like she'd feel any worse. ANGUS coulda told her.
• She thought INTERNET drama was bad, but this is just RIDICULOUS.
...and that's it for right now.
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Let's see if I can match your attention to detail:
10 and 30 are duplicates.
17 is contradicted by her argument with Momo-tan about whether to correct malnutrition at a restaurant or at a grocery store.
25, 48, 79, 135, and 219 are about other people.
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Some of those were intentionally duplicated (by the way, do you know she likes Yaoi Anime? ;) )
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Besides all the detail, the sheer amount of information you collected puts paid to any lingering ideas that Marigirl can be considered a new character.
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Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeww !!!! Hanners is not "mostly asexual" !!!! (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1588) She just cant do it because of her OCD !!!!
And its not 100% clear, but with 95% certainty I can say it was HANNERS who moved with Warp 9 when Marigold started to puke (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1633). Because Hanners obviously looked from pose and new position she had just moved very fast (she was sitting on the bed in the previous panel !), plus I dont remember being able to move fast when I felt like puking.
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Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeww !!!! Hanners is not "mostly asexual" !!!! (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1588) She just cant do it because of her OCD !!!!
You can be mostly asexual and still "theoretically" be interested in sex and its mechanics. It's the sex drive that is the issue - but yes, I agree that Hanners is probably just asexual in practice, since she has shown that she's interested in sex and has been attracted to men before (the whole fireman thing). But, why "ew"? Of any sexual quirk, I should think asexuality would be the least "ew"-worthy.
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Sorry if I'm repeating themes from elsewhere, this thread has become to huge to read in one sitting, and I really do want to comment.
Marigold clearly lives inside her own head, isn't concerned much with external appearances. Hence the condition of her room (before Hurricane Hanners blazed through). She's accustomed of thinking herself unattractive, and doesn't waste effort being sociable or making herself presentable because she's sure all such efforts are doomed. Her attraction to Angus was clear, and could have made things difficult for them to live together, once his clear preference for the other busty brunette in the room (Faye) was made apparent. I'm surprised, if Faye is Angus's "type", why isn't he more interested in Marigold? Unless maybe for the personal hygiene issues, knowing her flaws up close and personal?
It was easy for her to let Angus go, she's probably done that innumerable times before for "pretty" friends"; Marigold's probably let go of almost all of her other dreams, too. Except online in WoW, where failing to shower, rat poops, and melted half-eaten Pocky don't matter. Angus on the other hand, isn't necessarily being sincere in what he's saying about her -- after all, he still has to live with her, unless he's got an exit plan that will cover all the bills. I'm not saying he is being dishonest, only that flattery maintains his current, decent, lifestyle.
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Okay, this is my first post (I normally lurk, I signed up mostly to reply here, I'll hit the "Hi, I'm new" forum soon.), but I feel compelled to defend Marigold. Mostly because, with a few differences, I AM Marigold.
I think there are things going on inside her head that a) are hard if not impossible to explain in comic form and b) she (and Jeph, by extension) may not realize/know about. A majority of her issues seem to be interconnected, and explainable via certain mental illnesses (a hoarding complex, extreme introvertedness, etc.) I'm not saying she's NOT selfish or self absorbed at times, but seriously, who isn't?
Regarding her yelling at Momo, I can't blame her for that. I've been there, too (sans being drunk, and the conversation was with my sister, and not an AI of course). When something happens that's outside my comfort zone and GOES WELL, I'm bursting and want to tell someone about it, and sometimes don't take their feelings into account.
Regarding her trying to "guilt" Angus into making out with her... Well, let's put it this way, desperation can make a girl do crazy things. In Marigold's case, this may include wanting a "pity make-out" for lack of a better term. And crushing a guy because he's nice to you and pays attention to you isn't such a bad reason to have a crush. It's better than just looks or that he's say, a quarterback or something. That's kinda a GOOD reason to have a crush. *shrug*
Sorry for jumping in so late (this is what I get for reading back forums all night) and maybe I'm defensive because it hits close to home, but there's my .02 cents. (lol Verizon math)
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Welcome to the forum!
You alluded to mental health problems. One observation I've seen made about mental patients is that their capacity to interact with and care for others is reduced. It makes sense: if the system has to go into repair or debug mode, it won't be fully online to the external world.
So, a good thought. I still incline, however, to the idea that Marigirl is just spectacularly inexperienced and doesn't know how to befriend others.
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I think there are things going on inside her head that a) are hard if not impossible to explain in comic form and b) she (and Jeph, by extension) may not realize/know about.
I've long theorised that Marigold might have a certain disorder that I will not name, but which I think is a pretty obvious working hypothesis about what others see from her and the issues that have developed and her school and university experiences. I think even Jeph might not realize it*, but it fits for me. Still, it's just a working hypothesis. I don't think she's necessarily introverted per se, also.
*I'm not sure that if it's that he sought to deliberately have a charater with that disorder, and he just hasn't experienced it personally like he has OCD, that explains certain quirks that don't quite sit right with that hypothesis, if it's true; or that he just wants to decribe what he percieves as a "personality type" which is actually people with that disorder and not a personality type that expalins these. I get the impression that the latter is more probable.
I would be very happy if there's a storyline where it turns out that's actually the problem and she gets treatment for it. I don't think many people if anyone so far in her life has been able to even get a glimpse of what her "fundamental charater" is. I also doubt she's an self-unaware as people seem to think she is, it could be the complete opposite. Or not. We'll see :) I'm personally, as in, the impression I give, probably quite different from her -- she can seem like abit of a caricature, I think, especially one maybe done without realizing what you're caricaturing? But Hannelore also is and Jeph has OCD himself so.
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Yet another shining example of the layering of QC's main cast characters.
While at times Marigold really really really gets on my nerves, I don't really dislike her. I thought I did in the beginning, though. But when I was young, I've dated, and lived with, someone not unlike her for seven years.
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I've long theorised that Marigold might have a certain disorder that I will not name
Why not?
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Because I want to introduce as little bias as possible to the potential discussion.
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You can say "Aspergers".
Or were you thinking more Borderline Personality?
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Marigirl doesn't act like a borderline.
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You're right. More Aspergers-like.
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I have to disagree with Asperger's (no b, by the way). She's horrilbly introverted and inexperienced socially, but she's able to deal socially with people - not well, and she panics, but she can attend a party and participate in normal social interaction.
Both my nephews are autistic, one severely, the other at the Asperger's end of things. I've also had a few students afflicted with Asperger's. There are behaviours that Marigold just doesn't have, in particular the lack of eye contact and the repetitive social formality (one of my students wasn't comfortable unless he shook your hand at least twice every conversation). Also, Asperger's sufferers are usually not introverted; they're bad at it, but they continuously seek out social interaction, often to the point of annoyance.
Really, Mari's just a geek.
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Well, her habit of putting dangerous snakes in the meat grinder and forming the meat into patties is enough of a mental problem to be called asp burgers syndrome.
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<snip>
Really, Mari's just a geek.
...I thought that's what Asperger's Syndrome WAS. "Being a geek."
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You can be a geek without having Asperger's.
I don't think the converse is true!
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Following my whole "I am Marigold" line of thinking, it's not so much that Marigold is self-unaware all the time, she's possibly TOO self-aware in social situations. It may not make sense at first glance, but it's a working theory for me. The little filter in your head that says, "Hey, don't do that, you'll make an ass out of yourself" is faulty for her. It either overreacts and keeps Marigold silent and introverted a lot, or (when she's vulnerable or excited) not active enough.
>.> Of course, the fact that I've now spent the better part of an hour over two days defending a fictional character probably says something about my own personality. lol
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>.> Of course, the fact that I've now spent the better part of an hour over two days defending a fictional character probably says something about my own personality. lol
Oh... I wouldn't worry about that. We do that on here all the time! :D
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Following my whole "I am Marigold" line of thinking, it's not so much that Marigold is self-unaware all the time, she's possibly TOO self-aware in social situations. It may not make sense at first glance, but it's a working theory for me. The little filter in your head that says, "Hey, don't do that, you'll make an ass out of yourself" is faulty for her. It either overreacts and keeps Marigold silent and introverted a lot, or (when she's vulnerable or excited) not active enough.
What a great analogy! I had an engine thermostat that was like that - slow to open, quick to close. The temperature guage practically bounced from 3/4 to 1/4 on the highway...
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The little filter in your head that says, "Hey, don't do that, you'll make an ass out of yourself" is faulty for her. It either overreacts and keeps Marigold silent and introverted a lot, or (when she's vulnerable or excited) not active enough.
Yes. Like an inexperienced cook, who either puts in too much spice or too little, Marigirl is an inexperienced socializer.
EDIT: compliments on a good insight. Also, this is why she should avoid alcohol: someone whose inhibition circuits are already out of whack should not be poisoning them.
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I think she already figured out that last one.
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it's not so much that Marigold is self-unaware all the time, she's possibly TOO self-aware in social situations.
This had me worried, so I needed to think about this a bit.
What I was going to say was, I think you are partly right... but I also think there is more to it. In this situation (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1475) (and this one (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1473) too), Marigold was completely self-unaware, and Jeph even says so in the accompanying newsposts. But then I realised that this was not quite the opposite of what you say.
And then, when I was running through some coffee, I thought "hey, what Jeph is showing us here is something about Marigold that Marigold herself is completely unaware of."
So yes, Marigold is probably acutely self-aware in situations outside her comfort zone. But she can also be completely oblivious about herself.
I think that is what set her apart. She just doesn't have a clue about herself, and the impact of her own behaviour. It's not that she doesn't CARE, she just has no idea. Sometimes, she seems to already have written herself off. She knows that she is perceived by others to be 'different', but she's got no idea about how... and she's possibly too afraid to try and find out. Rather, she would just change her appearance to more "fit the norm", if she would just know what the norm is and how to do it.
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I think it's more precise to say she's written off the idea of herself in the mundane world.
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Agreed.
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Jumping in way late but I skimmed the majority of the thread, so hopefully I'm not overly repetitive. I have to say that I also like Marigold. I was just like her in high school, and I still am to an extent when it comes to social situations. I never know what to say, or what to do with my hands or where to stand. I also have a habit of jumping to the conclusion that I'm not really well-liked but invited out of habit or pity, which makes me un-inclined to accept invitations. Of course the first time I'm not invited is proof that they never liked me at all. See how this all circles around to create a person in complete isolation? The difference between myself and Marigold is that I recognize it, I had some great people in my life to help me handle it, and I've learned how to go through the motions of pretending to be a normal person.
I agree that Marigold has some sort of mental disorder. I work for a company that helps the disabled get various government benefits, and judging by the way her problems interfere with her activities of daily living her problems are fairly serious. She has experienced mood swings, lacks impulse control (with both Dale and Angus), appetite disturbance (nothing but pocky), feelings of guilt or worthlessness (all the time). She also has some signs of a generalized anxiety disorder, based on her fear of social interactions (the anime style intensity of her reaching for the door of the bar first time they hung out jumps to mind) and her general isolationism.
Her poor hygiene and housekeeping are also signs of a serious problem. Our feelings about ourselves are reflected in the way we care for ourselves.
This is crazy old, but someone commented about her wearing a revealing dress, but as someone with a larger than average bosum I can tell you that everything is either revealing, makes you look like a nun, or is extremely painful. Never mention a minimizer bra to me.
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Just noticing that with strip 1778 we are at 365 strips since Marigold was introduced in #1413. Of course, that's really a bit over a year....
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Poor grooming is a depression symptom, yes, it's even seen in animal models of depression. But there's a risk of medicalizing nonconformity.
University labs and software companies are full of hackers who would rather program than shower.
Marigirl had an intense anxiety reaction to entering The Horrible Revelation, but was it disproportionate to doing something entirely outside her comfort zone? It would be fair to compare what she went through to a person from the center of the bell curve preparing to do public speaking.
Impulse control problems? Those were good examples, but she is also capable of long-term disciplined goal-directed behavior. She puts up with situations she doesn't like for the sake of her guild.
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I do think we as a society need to be careful about pathologizing non-comformist behavior, but some of her reactions are a bit out of left field. 10 year old pocky and rat poop take her issues a bit beyond laziness/rather be doing something else. I hate housekeeping and I am lazy about it, and we rarely have people so there is no incentive to clean. However, the first sign of mold on a dirty plate is usually all it takes to inspire me to get to work. I really just thought that mild depression is a wee bit more fitting than jumping to a conclusion like Aspergers (the current pop psych diagnosis of choice). I would also argue that a healthy happy human is willing to push their boundaries without turning it into a death march or being bullied into it, as Marigold did in reference to the bar. Pushing boundaries and new experiences (to me) are the cornerstone of a healthy life. I believe this is the reason for high incidence of depression among law and medical students. Long hours of intense study, in poorly lit rooms, little sunshine, little intellectual stimulation that isn't part of the study course etc. Very comparable to diehard WOW players in a sense.
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...some of her reactions are a bit out of left field. 10 year old pocky and rat poop take her issues a bit beyond laziness/rather be doing something else.
Point well taken!
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I really just thought that mild depression is a wee bit more fitting than jumping to a conclusion like Aspergers (the current pop psych diagnosis of choice).
As a sufferer of depression, general society anxiety, and who knows what else (I'm mental, but not totally diagnosed), I'd agree. Same as with the "pushing boundaries" bit. For various reasons, in order to make myself push the edges of my comfort zone I often need a kick out the door, and sometimes will need to be dragged kicking and screaming (okay, that's not literal, but figurative). I'm... not sure where exactly I was going with this thought, but I kinda felt the need to ramble. lol
Hmmm, perhaps I'm projecting on Marigold too much and am overly-defensive of myself and thus her by extension? :? Iunno.
Oh, and I'm a tad confused, what's up with calling Marigold "Marigirl"?
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Faye said she needed a nickname, and I didn't like any of the ones Faye proposed.
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You can say "Aspergers".
Or were you thinking more Borderline Personality?
Em, wat? No. Not even close.
'Till later, I'll probably elaborate?
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And being a girl with glasses and pulled back hair and social anxiety, that's always bothered me. While a lot of us withdrawn nerd girls would like to be a little more outgoing and pretty, we don't all want to become a cookie cutter image of conventional 'beauty'. At least, not most of the time.
Though some of us have even less social experience. Being invited to a party in 8th grade? No. (or any time from 1st to 12th for that matter).
I'm not sure I would pass this test (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1463). But I would try to. I don't want to be so socially stunted. But there's a lot of fear too.
The physical resemblance is uncanny - Marigold at 52, if she didn't have friends like that to help.
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Following my whole "I am Marigold" line of thinking, it's not so much that Marigold is self-unaware all the time, she's possibly TOO self-aware in social situations. It may not make sense at first glance, but it's a working theory for me. The little filter in your head that says, "Hey, don't do that, you'll make an ass out of yourself" is faulty for her. It either overreacts and keeps Marigold silent and introverted a lot, or (when she's vulnerable or excited) not active enough.
+1 Insightful
I wonder how stereotypical people like us are? The fit's not perfect, but very close. Some alcohol would probably be good at loosening the filters, but the filters won't allow that to happen. If it did, it might be very healing - or very damaging. It's a self-image issue, I know I'm scared to find out what I'd be like with the filter down.
I think it all springs from a low self-image.
Using a comic strip as an aid to introspection and cognitive therapy? Ewww, narcissism... but the resemblance really is scary. That probably means the artist knows someone like that, or Marigold is a composite.
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Jumping in way late but I skimmed the majority of the thread, so hopefully I'm not overly repetitive. I have to say that I also like Marigold. I was just like her in high school, and I still am to an extent when it comes to social situations. I never know what to say, or what to do with my hands or where to stand. I also have a habit of jumping to the conclusion that I'm not really well-liked but invited out of habit or pity, which makes me un-inclined to accept invitations. Of course the first time I'm not invited is proof that they never liked me at all. See how this all circles around to create a person in complete isolation? The difference between myself and Marigold is that I recognize it, I had some great people in my life to help me handle it, and I've learned how to go through the motions of pretending to be a normal person.
I'm right there with you; like you, I've been able to overcome it a bit. In my case, I am self-deprecating because it hurts less for me to say it about myself than to worry that someone else will beat me to it. It's part of why I've had trouble with relationships in the past - I'd rather assume something is going to go wrong and head it off at the pass than have someone dump me, because it sucks to be dumped. No, I know it doesn't make sense, but to my downward-spiraling mind it does. Low self-esteem is a bitch.
And no, despite most of my friends being major geeks/nerds/whathaveyou (incl. myself), despite a number of them being pretty big gamers (incl. myself), not one of them has reached the level of social ineptitude somehow attained by Marigold
Really?? Come on now, if they're not low-functioning then you really can't call them MAJOR nerds. Good grief, MOST of the nerds I know are those of the low-functioning kind, and several are much worse than Marigold. I think in that case a lot of it stems from the fact that they are heavily involved in role-playing - whether tabletop, computer game, or LARP - and have no real concept of how the real world is. These are the guys who never shower, never brush their teeth, wear food-stained clothes, are not just obese but wear the weight badly, and yet they STILL put down women who don't weigh 100 pounds and have DD boobs. It's the girls who feel the need to loudly announce how TOTALLY WEIRD they are, and everything they do is done solely to prove that. It's like there's an entire social group that's trying to be as different as possible by conflicting with social norms on purpose, and they don't care if it rubs other people the wrong way - or they're completely oblivious to it.
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I would venture to say that Marigold's attitude easily stems from the fact that almost all her social interaction used to be online. People are usually not themselves online - especially in gaming. The internet gives you a great place to become anonymous and act however you want with no real thought of consequences. You're completely separated from everyone by a computer screen and you don't have to care whether or not what you say hurts them. I turn off trade chat in WoW occasionally because of all the people being assholes for no reason whatsoever - they're just hurtful on purpose and it sickens me. I've also found that when I'm around that kind of attitude for a long time, I start to pick up on it and I get snide with people. When you're around it all the time, you begin to feel like that's the norm, that people just treat each other however they want. I guarantee that a lot of them would never dream of saying those things to someone in person.
Also, Marigold obviously has a lot of learning to do as far as how things really work. She often inadvertently says things that we know are rude, and she's always shocked and embarrassed to find out that that's the case - she's not trying to be a bitch, she just has no idea that people don't talk to each other that way. She was surprised to find out that the girls in her guild who were taking pics of themselves weren't really as hot as they made themselves out to be, and that she could do a few things to touch up her own photos and make herself look better. It felt like that was the first time anyone really pointed out that the playing field was more even than she thought. I'm sure that Angus telling her she was pretty was probably the first time she got a real compliment, considering the way it made her blush. I'm not at all surprised that she crushed on Angus after hearing that. She'd do anything to look good to him, and really all she can think about is *acceptance*. She's like that little dog Chester from Looney Tunes.
I think she's got a lot of growing to do, and a lot to learn, but she'll get there. The more she interacts with people outside of a computer screen, the better.
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I agree, I don't think she is a bad person--just sort of a stunted one. I feel like she's the kind of person who has endured a lot of bullying in her life, and didn't, like most of us, get the chance to break out of it when she went to college. Yeah, she's selfish sometimes, but I think the world has kind of taught Marigold that nobody is going to look out for her and anyone pretending to has an ulterior motive, so this real-friend stuff is hard for her. She is trying to be open, but it is way easier to let other people care about you than it is to learn to be a good friend to others--and up till now, she hasn't had a lot of good examples. Plus, it's rare that anyone really calls Marigold when they are in need. Yeah, Hannelore was on the brink of freak-out from taking care of her, but what did Hannelore really need from her at that moment? She needed her to be grateful and to see that her help was having an impact, but that's kind of a subtle set of communications (their meaning, not their mode--Hanners was pretty much yelling) to interpret when you're not very good at it and you're also it a pretty terrible emotional place yourself.
I think she also does kind of a tough-girl-I-don't-care thing up front to protect herself--when everyone has called you weird forever your choices are to let it hurt or to just commit fully to an alternative identity. And Marigold is just now figuring out that she doesn't have to do that, that she can like gaming and manga and not abandon everything that comes with participating in social norms like having friends. So now she's particularly sensitive when someone seemingly goes back on that, like when Angus called her a weird shut-in. It requires a lot of vulnerability for her to trust that people want to hang out with her not just because there is a punchline coming, because that's been her whole life. I think underneath it all she is a good person, but she is just not good yet at juggling all the stuff that comes with relationships with other people. She doesn't have that fluid coordination to take a bunch of things into consideration, she is only looking at one part of the picture at a time. Ever see someone who doesn't know how to drive try to learn to operate a stick shift? It's like that. Eventually, she'll get it. And maybe the Marten-Dora crisis will be a good doorway for her to start being the supportive friend instead of just always being the one who needs support.
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I've long theorised that Marigold might have a certain disorder that I will not name, but which I think is a pretty obvious working hypothesis about what others see from her and the issues that have developed and her school and university experiences.
At a guess... Avoidant Personality Disorder.
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People are maybe reading too much into Marigold's character and as an introvert myself, I'd put 99% of her faux pas down to her having limited skills in social interaction and behaviour.
When I was growing up as a teen, I'd get home from school, go up to my room, boot up my computer and only leave my room for toilet breaks and to get food. I've almost certainly suffered from computer addiction but was maybe fortunate that at the time 9.8 baud modems ruled the internet. Certainly there was nothing like WoW to get seriously addicted to. Knowing I lacked social skills, I made a point of going to nightclubs with people from school/college in order to learn some social skills but it was a waste of time. If you are introverted and aren't naturally outgoing, social scenes can be uncomfortable. Going to the nightclubs were a waste for me as I never had the skills to chat up the ladies and even if one did catch my eye, the lack of knowing the protocol as to whether or not it would be a one night stand or something more would be expected would be a major concern. I never got on the dance floor due to a lack of knowledge of how to dance (even if it was clear other individuals couldn't either). When I am at work functions, I'll lurk in the corners and only speak to individual people who are not part of a group and that I have regularly interacted with before. I can be talkative one on one, but put me in a group and I shut up. The irony that while in a group, in an attempt to be careful with what you are saying so not to insult anyone, you are more likely to insult people - so sometimes the best thing to do is to say little unless you know the people well. I'd wager the same is with Marigold who appears to be more introverted than what I am. (I tend to score around 1.8 on the introvert-extrovert scale where 1 is introvert and 5 is extrovert)
In terms of 'real' friends, Marigold only has Angus, Momo, and her WoW guild (as a single entity rather than any individuals within). It is clear Hanners is likely to get full friend status very soon. Observe that of her friends, only Angus is a full human - Momo is a computer and her WoW guild interacts via a computer. I predict that Dale will become her first real boyfriend in the long term future in a Romeo and Juliet type situation (minus the poison and deaths etc) thanks to the server rivalry. People like Faye and Martin to introverts like Marigold will probably be classified as "friends of Angus" rather than friends in their own right, no matter how often they interact. As a result, I wouldn't expect Marigold to interact with "friends of Angus" unless Angus (or Hanners) is there or that the likes of Faye approach her and 'drag' her along. Expect Marigold to put herself out to help Angus and Hanners, but not for Martin etc unless she feels something to gain - this is not a negative reaction it appears since the more social of us would help strangers out in need but not go that extra mile for them. Same with Marigold who won't see Martin etc as a full friend. For someone like Marigold, Angus (and increasingly so Hanners) will be her security blanket in a group. Although she is spending increasing amount of time with the main cast of QC, she won't be comfortable enough or know them well enough for equal interaction (not unless alcohol is involved and from memory she only drinks to make the effort of fitting in). By equal interaction, I mean that 99% of her conversations with the likes of Martin will be started by the group and she will look to answer politely. In relation to her friends (Angus, Momo, her guild and when alone with Hanners), she will probably start closer to half the conversations.
I don't think Marigold is any more self centered than anyone else in the world. I think where people have commented about her behaviour from the time she came back from time with the main QC cast while Momo was going her raids for her is missing the point. From an introverts' position, spending time with a group of people without knowingly offending or making an idiot of yourself is a HUGE deal. Remember the start of that evening was: http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1463 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1463). You'd forgive a man who has become a father for the first time coming back from the hospital and being caught up with himself being a father for the first time - for Marigold it is probably on a similar scale, but unless you are introverted yourself, you will think Marigold is being caught up in something that most would consider is no big deal.
http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=1628 (http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=1628)Consider the time while sitting on the couch when Marigold told Faye she really liked Angus - leading to Faye making a quick exit when Angus came in - and then the joyous face when Faye left. Her joy in real life would not be purely down to the fact Faye seemingly took the hint to leave them alone - she probably took a bit of joy from the fact Faye didn't blow her off and tell her that Angus wouldn't be interested in her etc. Even if she saw the eyes pf Faye and Angus at the time, she wouldn't have necessarily known what the look meant. Or at least - she might have realised something was up, but she wouldn't have had the experience to know why.
Or take the time when everyone is out in the bar etc and then the last frame of the comic is Marigold sitting at her computer looking bored and sighing. It is probably wrong to say she is self-pitying. I'd argue her emotion is one of disappointment in herself and not one of pity. There is a difference and I doubt she'd want to be pitied. A sportsman who comes runner up will show signs of disappointment but won't be expecting pity - I hope the comparision explains what I mean.
I don't know how introverted Jeph is, or if he knows people like Marigold, but I think he has got the behaviour of an introvert to the level of Marigold more or less spot on to date. I've rarely set out to insult people or act rude, but awkwardness in situations can lead to situations that socially aware people can spot and navigate around. Any perceived rudeness from Marigold is almost certainly 99% unintentional. Compare that with the likes of Dora or Faye who built their reputations on 'sassing' people out.
(for the side issue of her magazines, again I think people are slightly missing the point. If I lend someone one of my books, then it doesn't matter if the spine is bent and there is a coffee cup mark on the cover where I once used the book as a cup coaster - the point is the person who is borrowing the book has a duty of care to return the book back in the condition they were lent it and not add to the stains etc. Whether or not the magazines are expensive or not is beside the point.)
So why does Angus think Marigold is great? In the context of their long term relationship, rather than how we have seen her react in group context, she is. As stated above, introverts normally have 1-2 good friends and so tend to have level of loyalty that extroverts don't have. Due to the relative ease that extroverts have in making new friends, extroverts tend to have more of an "easy come, easy go" attitude towards their friends. If a friend starts to become annoying, extroverts are more likely to discard them and find a different friend to hang around with. Introverts like Marigold don't have that option. Although we won't witness it (and it would be boring to read from a comic angle), Marigold will provide loyal, solid, committed friendship towards Angus. Marigold will always take Angus's side in any argument (their few minor spats aside), she will always be a loyal confidante who he can always confide in (more so than Faye or any other girlfriend or friend) and is the one person who isn't likely to betray him. She certainly won't critisise him unless he gives indication he wants her opinion, but I suspect he will appreciate it if he went too far that she does feel the need to react without asking. Due to her introverted nature, Angus won't need to deal with the baggage that extroverts sometimes have - certainly not needing to put up with her in terms of relationship dramas or emotional outbursts. All in all, they seem to rarely argue and are comfortable around each other - almost like a brother and sister but without the siblin rivalry.
Considering further Marigold's role in QC, she will always be introverted - no professional help will change that. She may develop stronger friendship bonds but will only have 2-3 real life friends at any point in time (ie, Angus, Hanners and maybe one other - it is hard to classify Momo due to her non-human status). It won't be in her nature to want to build a bigger group of friends than that, although for as long as Angus and Hanners are part of the QC crowd, she will be considered part of the friendship group. However, in her own mind she will not consider herself a fully paid up member of the group and will therefore opt in and out of group activities on a "as needs" basis. The longer she spends hanging out with the group, the more she'll learn the social protocols and will learn when she should keep quiet and when to speak although she will still at times feel awkward. For example, most of us know the protocols in terms of having a conversation on the phone, but not everyone is comfortable actually picking up the phone and making the call. We all know how to pee in public toilets but some people have problems if there is someone is using the toilet next to theirs....... Myself, if I make a phone call and get voice mail, I have to put the phone down, scribble a note of what I want to say and then redile - even if the message is "its me, call me back on number blah blah blah". Completely irrational but I've never been comfortable with speaking to technology down the other end of the phone but I'm ok speaking to a human live.
Marigold will never be one of the main characters, even if she is still involved several real life years down the line. As per the likes of Sven, Steve, Tai and a few others, she is one of the main background characters who will be come and go and help move things along now and again in whatever storyline is happening. Her introvertedness means she can disappear for periods without it seeming suspicious. Her absence is explained with "probably on a raid". At the moment, her main function is to help Hanners overcome some of her OCD. Both are socially inexperienced in some areas (such as boyfriends etc) although for different reasons.
For me, the most natural storyline that is focused on Marigold is a relationship with Dale who seems to have his eye on her and sees her as an online project. They are forbidden fruit for each other thanks to their class and server etc on WoW in the same way Romeo and Juliet were forbidden due to their family names and feuds. I suspect Marigold will be socially confused by the fact she'll probably be flattered by Dale's attention once his attention becomes obvious but sees him as the enemy. Of course, we won't see the fruitation of Dale's scheme for a while, but it would be interesting if Marigold does get a romance interest at a time when Angus and Faye has a major fight - as per above, by the nature of Marigold's personality, she will always be there for Angus but will her mind and attention be partly on other things?? Marigold bonding with Dale isn't so unlikely considering both have spend considerable time on WoW and their first date will probably be in a WoW tavern.
So in conclusion, I think Marigold is a good honest person without any deliberately negative attributes. However when in a group situation or away from her closest friends of whom she is most familiar with, she acts in a way she *thinks* people are supposed to - but without social experience she sometimes gets it wrong and may unintentionally offend. For most people, being introverted or extroverted is not a huge problem, but when your 'vertedness is a little bit more extreme then the behaviour patterns become strange or out of sync with normal practices. Hanners also have wierd habits but we let her off once we are informed she has the excuse of OCD.
(Thank you for reading)
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Agreed. She's not perfect, but I think she's fundamentally not a bad person. Just a different one who is still doing some learning--and she's never going to be the life of the party.
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Agreed. She's not perfect, but I think she's fundamentally not a bad person. Just a different one who is still doing some learning--and she's never going to be the life of the party.
That depends on how much Whiskey she drinks.
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Sorry to bump such an old thread.
Going back through these comics allows me to remember how rude Faye was to Mari...making bets with the bartender that Mari wouldn't come in. What a...c word. Won't go there again, I've already gotten myself in trouble.
I read almost everything here. Yes, Mari isn't perfect. I adore my Mariiiiiiiiii! ... and don't care what anyone says, really. She is a good girl with a good heart who can be impulsive, rude, selfish, crazy, immature, and a little out of control, just like everyone else. To quote Marilyn Monroe, if you can't handle her at her worst, you don't deserve her at her best.
It isn't just that I relate to her so much. No matter what anyone may say, she has so much courage. Nobody else in the comic holds a candle to Mari.
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OK, I'll certainly agree with Marigold being brave. However I should point out that she had to be pushed into going to the bar by Momo, given her druthers she would have stayed at home on her raid. And Faye (and possibly others) would have been right about her, she wouldn't have shown. So that bravery needs to be qualified somewhat.
I also take offense at the c-word. Faye really doesn't qualify - sure, she tried out some nicknames, and had that bet. But she also made Mari a "dark and stormy" at the party, and may well have been inclusive in other ways - IIRC, she was sitting next to her during the "sucker punch drunk" incident. She also horned in to protect Mari from Sven in the purloined book incident. Granted, her handling of Momo that day was less than admirable, but she acted out of the goodness of her heart. As did she when she left Mari alone with Angus, not wanting to burst Mari's bubble (despite the faux pas that followed as a result of her leaving).
No matter how much you dislike her, you can't argue that Faye's completely heartless.
Well, you can, but it won't fly.
Back to the bravery of Marigold; yes, she's been coming out of her shell, but I really doubt she would have if not for the efforts of others (Momo, Angus, Hannelore). To that end, there are other brave people (perhaps braver) in the cast - Hannelore springs to mind, taking on her neuroses single handedly (I suppose she has Dr. Corrinne as a fallback, but therapy means you have to do the work). I don't know that Faye's particularly brave - she's more of a survivor, although finally opening up to Marten was brave, as was going home to face her memories. Raven changed her life around, losing weight and completely altering her personality - brave? Well, the first steps probably were. Not to mention going back to school to pursue her dreams...
I know you're a one-note fan, but I'll be calling you on your blanket statements when they get made. Because someday, you're going to understand other people (and characters) better, and your whole view will change.
I hope to be part of that.
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One note. lol. Thanks, that's sweet.
It's true that I don't like any of them as much as Mari, but, except Faye, I see some good qualities in most of them.
Just to let you know, anything you say about Faye not being so bad is automatically translated to blah blah blah in my mind, so don't bother.
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Well, there's your problem!
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Just like I mostly deal with the fact that others here like Faye, I'd like it if people could accept that I don't.
She's been in the comic for a long time, I get that.
Did it occur to anyone that maybe Jeph didn't put her in the comic to be liked? I am not the only person who loathes her.
I'd like people to respect that I don't like her. There's nothing likable about her. Nothing. I can't think of one time.
Maybe, as hard as it is for people to accept, Faye is just a bitch, that's her character, and that's why she's there. She's there to be a bitch.
If I was a man she probably wouldn't rub me quite as far the wrong way. But as it happens, I'm not, and she does.
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No-one cares that you don't like Faye.
People get annoyed when your obsession with not liking Faye just as loud as you can gets in the way of, well, everything else you do around here.
First it's dull and repetitive and second it doubtless triggers some sort of "worry" response in those of us whose empathy works through the tubes.
Also, I would not be surprised if Mr. Jacques got pissed at you for telling everyone you know how his character was meant to be interpreted as if you're the Divine Oracle of Jephi...just a hunch though.
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(moderator)
There is, if memory serves, a separate thread for Faye's fundamental character. There's a reason for that.
There is, to the best of my knowledge, no thread for discussing other forum members. There's a reason for that.
(/moderator)
That's a well-taken point about Marigold's courage, and I think it's a new point that hasn't come up before. There are probably more people willing to charge machine guns than there are people willing to change themselves. It's not unique to Marigold -- Hannelore has an anxiety disorder to fight, for example -- but it's still praiseworthy.
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No-one cares that you don't like Faye.
People get annoyed when your obsession with not liking Faye just as loud as you can gets in the way of, well, everything else you do around here.
First it's dull and repetitive and second it doubtless triggers some sort of "worry" response in those of us whose empathy works through the tubes.
Also, I would not be surprised if Mr. Jacques got pissed at you for telling everyone you know how his character was meant to be interpreted as if you're the Divine Oracle of Jephi...just a hunch though.
If you don't care, you're welcome to skip right over my comments.
I never intended to piss off Mr. Jacques, which is why I'm trying to work on it. It's really really hard though.
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Another interesting point you've made about Marigold is that she treats others decently. I can think of only one case where she said something harsh, and that was definitely provoked. If, as I would, you consider "others" to include AnthroPCs, she was showing concern for their welfare from near her first appearance.
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...
That's a well-taken point about Marigold's courage, and I think it's a new point that hasn't come up before. There are probably more people willing to charge machine guns than there are people willing to change themselves. It's not unique to Marigold -- Hannelore has an anxiety disorder to fight, for example -- but it's still praiseworthy.
And that's what makes the Hanners-Marigold friendship an interesting part of the strip for me: On a basic level, both young women are in a "place" where dealing with everyday life takes conscious courage. Hanners is farther along the curve than is Marigold, and recognizes she helps herself by having someone else to help. It's fun to watch (in a good way, you perverts). And now Momo is taking on some of the Hanners role, giving Mari two friends and allies.
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Dear Ms. Questionablecontentfan,
I would never deny you your dislike of Faye. She has several reprehensible characteristics, not the least of which is her violence towards others. Though that's been tempered of late, it's still a problem, and always will be.
And, though I respect that you don't like her, it's comments like There's nothing likable about her. Nothing. I can't think of one time.
that drive me absolutely nuts. Despite several times where she has been noble, a good friend, caring, generous, etc. that have been pointed out, you still scream this at every opportunity, with nothing to back it up. You don't bother to refute anything that anyone has pointed out that doesn't fit your opinion - and that's a real problem, not just one on the inter-tubes.
You like to say that you'll never change your opinion, and other people won't change theirs. In truth, people's opinions change everyday, as they are exposed to more information and ideas. Maybe if you'd try and get us to see what it is about Faye that you dislike (a few examples would be good, or perhaps an alternative view of why the things others think are good acts aren't), you might sway a few people's opinions. But calling her names, then disengaging from the conversation won't do it.
So I offer you a challenge. In the Faye's character thread (not the Faye's tits one), I want you to take some of the examples that I and others have offered you in the last few weeks, and analyze them. Show us how she's a mean, nasty person motivated only by self interest and hate. Cite your sources. Link to the comics. Explain how what she did was awful and irredeemable.
You may actually sway a few people. But I personally think you're going to get to know Faye a lot better in the course of this challenge. It may become the equivalent of walking a mile in her shoes.
At least, that's my opinion. YMMV!
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bla bla bla
Thank you for your opinion.
I'm really sorry, I just had to... It's friday dammit!
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Okay, That's it.
QCF, have you READ Strips 500-510?
I suspect not.
Go and read them. Then ask yourself, "How do you think YOU would react to the world if that happened to you?"
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I guess I look at Marigold and what strikes me are the surges of self loathing she's had. As someone who's dealt with that too it can suck. I get the idea when I look at Marigold of someone who was frequently tormented in school and praying that she'd just be ignored, but then that might overstating things. Geekdom was a protective sphere but it has its own issues. One other thing is that Marigold seems pretty lonely, not necessarily on the friend front but more...well I remember her exchange with Angus on their way to the party about how she'd be willing to be with a guy just because he was kind of nice to her. Again, maybe overthinking it but that would imply that the poor lady is lonely and really wants someone to hold.
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Give me a break. Marigold was provoked in almost all of those, and the ones where she wasn't, look at Dora's bitchiness back "Oh, I was too busy HAVING A BOYFRIEND" (hitting a nerve for Mari, who can't get a boyfriend) and then calling Marigold "awkward." Dora is quite a bitch sometimes, especially when she feels superior.
Angus was being a dick about the movies she liked.
And their website DID suck. What is she supposed to do, lie and say it's good? She was trying to help them, maybe not in the nicest way, but someone had to tell them.
The stuff with Dale is just her being immature and unsure of how to act with guys. I think Dale thought it was funny more than anything else. Yes, not tipping is rude, but come on. You might even call it her weird, backasswards sense of humor.
The Sven thing, whatever. Mari has been picked on by guys like him and ignored. Of course she's going to be jaded, and I won't blame her for that.
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Just to prove I don't love everything about Mari:
Disgusting, rat infested room.
Beef jerky and pocky--blecch!
Complaining that eating right and exercise was too hard but then rejecting Momo's help saying how pathetic getting a robot's help was. Um, you can't have it both ways, babe. Either take Momo's help if it's so hard, or DO IT YOURSELF if a robot helping you is pathetic.
Constantly ragging on herself, denying how pretty she is, saying she's ugly.
Thinking Dora and Marten are "cool" (GAG)
Not realizing how completely amazing she is.
Not realizing she can do a HELL of a lot better than Angus.
Not mouthing off more (people say she's been TOO rude, I think she's actually been too nice in some instances).
Drinking bourbon, getting completely wasted, and puking. Not cool, Mari. NOT cool. You're better than that shit!
Anyway, I can think of more, but despite how I feel about Mari, I see her flaws quite clearly. I don't think the guilting Angus into making out with her thing was uncalled for at all. He deserved worse than that.
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Give me a break. Marigold was provoked in almost all of those
When we do something (or when someone that we understand and sympathize with does something) we see the intention, when someone else does something we only see the action.
Just as you rationalized everything Marigold did, there are rationalizations for what Faye does.
Do these rationalizations excuse their actions? possibly.
Faye and Marigold are both people with severe insecurities and issues; Marigold lashes out at herself, Faye lashes out at other people.
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No way. There is no excuse for what Faye does. Her dad shooting himself, while tragic, is not an excuse.
I could try to pretend to make up excuses. Oh, Faye is hurt, oh Faye is scared. Bleh. Punching and hitting people is inexcusable.
I never understood what Marten, or anyone, found so desirable about her. She makes me ...sick.
I can't really respond anymore. I REALLY have to stop talking about Faye before I get in trouble, again.
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That unwillingness to accept Momo's help was another example of the self-esteem problem. She has a friendship with Momo and trading favors is in general healthy.
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Also, the way she brushes others off when they tell her she's pretty or offer advice is just rude. The way she talked to Momo was rude. The way she spoke to Hanners when Hanners was trying to comfort her was rude. Marigold doesn't see it that way...all she can feel is her own pain and she doesn't think or care about how her comments feel to others. It's not acceptable, but yes, it's easier for me to see why she does it because...
...I do it too.
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No way. There is no excuse for what Faye does.
The same can be said for Marigold. There's no excuse for shutting herself off from the rest of the world.
You can't have it both ways. Mari's growing, developing, getting better with help from her friends (yes, that includes Angus).
Faye's growing, developing, getting better with help from her friends (and some therapy).
Dora might get better, it's too soon to tell. Sven's making an attempt, again, too soon to tell. Hannelore - well, that one's obvious. The only main (human) character who hasn't changed since the strips inception is Marten, and he was recently called out on it.
Will they all meet somewhere in the middle as well balanced, happy people?
:roll: Oh please. Where's the entertainment in that?
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So I offer you a challenge. In the Faye's character thread (not the Faye's tits one), I want you to take some of the examples that I and others have offered you in the last few weeks, and analyze them. Show us how she's a mean, nasty person motivated only by self interest and hate. Cite your sources. Link to the comics. Explain how what she did was awful and irredeemable.
You may actually sway a few people. But I personally think you're going to get to know Faye a lot better in the course of this challenge. It may become the equivalent of walking a mile in her shoes.
At least, that's my opinion. YMMV!
I agree with Carl-E, and in the Faye's Character thread it wouldn't be off topic and it wouldn't be moderator fuel as long as you back up your assertions with reasonable citations from the story.
I could just as easily argue that Marigold should just get over her past, that her self image/they way people might have treated her does not excuse her actions at all.
But I don't....
mostly because I don't believe those things. But That is how you sound when you talk about Faye.
You have so much empathy for Marigold, there might be other people on here who identify with Faye that strongly, yet you don't extend them the same courtesy that has been given to you. The chance to have their opinion fairly heard the way yours have been.
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There's no excuse for shutting herself off from the rest of the world.
Oh really?
You want them in alphabetical order, or are you not too picky?
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Will they all meet somewhere in the middle as well balanced, happy people?
:roll: Oh please. Where's the entertainment in that?
Well, they could always assemble a set of havoc-wreaking rug-monkeys who (after undoing the balancing-out of her parents) start developing highly interesting and hilariously disturbing problems of their own, although I have to admit, this is a bit of a far-fetched storyline. :angel:
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Stop.
Please refer to the "Put the rocks down, Please?" (http://www.jonacuff.com/stuffchristianslike/2010/03/2446/) link in the signature line.
Remember that you are dealing with REAL PEOPLE here.
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Well, they could always assemble a set of havoc-wreaking rug-monkeys
I'm pretty sure Jeph's said he won't do pregnancy. Though whether that was because of the reaction to the C-A-D story, I don't know.
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I don't think QCfan wants reminding of that...
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I really don't get how Mari has excuses for her actions while Faye doesn't. It's either both or no one in this case. Quite a double standard to me.
I highly doubt that something has happened to Mari that is in the same level as Faye's tragedy. Not that it should matter anyway, hell no... You are supposed to trust and be nice with the world and just forget that your father just killed himself in front of you. It's just that easy.
Being introverted is just way more complicated.
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There's no excuse for shutting herself off from the rest of the world.
Oh really?
You want them in alphabetical order, or are you not too picky?
This is exactly my point. You see how others have the same reaction to you that you had to me when you say this about Faye.
But jwhouk's right. I keep stirring the pot, trying to keep it from burning, and it turns out I'm stirring a hornet's nest instead. I'm not talking about you in this analogy, but rather all those other forumites buzzing around this.
I don't want to disengage from you completely - you're clearly a hurt person, and that ... well, that hurts. But there comes a point in time when one person keeps shutting the door, and the person standing on the other side just has to give up and goes home. I don't want to, but it's clearly starting to be counterproductive.
My apologies to you and the rest of the forum. I didn't mean to seem to be hounding you. I'll let it rest, for now.
Goodnight, Irene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcHLCv6sFFU&feature=related).
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(T)here might be other people on here who identify with Faye that strongly, yet you don't extend them the same courtesy that has been given to you. The chance to have their opinion fairly heard the way yours have been.
THANK YOU.
I identify with Faye...not myself specifically but friends of mine. I have had friends who have had hard lives, or tragic instances in their lives, who end up being a little...prickly. I'm not saying that they're always nice, but friends stick by each other even if they sometimes say or do things that can be interpreted as mean, especially if you know that they may have a reason (justified or not) to act that way. I wouldn't call Marigold a "pathetic, weird, smelly loser" and just the same way, Faye shouldn't be called a "bitch".
This is one of the best things about reading QC...the characters are complex people with rich histories and contradictions in their personalities, just like real people. I don't think I have a single friend who hasn't done something "bitchy" or "jerky" at some point...but my point is that no one is strictly "good" or "evil" in the real world.
Marigold is a complex person, and so is Faye. I enjoy reading both of them for (very) different reasons, but let's not pretend that they both don't have good and bad qualities.
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You think Marigold is a pathetic, weird, smelly loser?
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You think Marigold is a pathetic, weird, smelly loser?
No, he doesn't. If you read his comment more carefully, you might have noticed that he explicitly stated that he would NOT call Marigold a 'pathetic, smelly loser'. Because that would be a narrow-minded, judgmental and inconsiderate thing to do. Just as automatically calling Faye a 'bitch' would be. Context, people.
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*sigh*
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...explicitly stated that he would NOT call Marigold a 'pathetic, smelly loser'. Because that would be a narrow-minded, judgmental and inconsiderate thing to do. Just as automatically calling Faye a 'bitch' would be.
Thanks. =)
Exactly. I could come up with a million reasons that Mari is a "pathetic, weird, smelly loser". I could practically make an annotated list. But I won't, because I know that she's a complex character with many positive qualities as well, and those are just mean, short-sighted words to use.
Furthermore, it's kind of hurtful to call anyone names. That's my point. Even if said character is fictional we should resist labelling people as "bitch" or "loser" or "slut" because it over-simplifies peoples' personalities which are innately complex.
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I could practically make an annotated list.
Exactly.
Let's not forget that we could easily do that with pretty much every character. You know... make some dumb lists so we can easily say that "Dora is an overreactive bi***", " Hanners is a nutjob", "Will is (well, before getting a job) a friggin loser", "Sven and Raven are kind of sluts", "Marten is a loser too",and so on and so on... "Faye is an abusive c-word" * isn't different. It's really easy to just take away all the good parts of a person just to put them into one single bad label.
*: God I hate that swear word.
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One of the problems Marigold has to overcome is that she calls herself names. I like to imagine a therapist or a friend playing the role of therapist (bad idea) pushing her to reframe it: "I have a responsible professional job", "I'll start taking showers every other day", "I'll start getting some exercise by walking with Momo".
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I identify with Faye...not myself specifically but friends of mine. I have had friends who have had hard lives, or tragic instances in their lives, who end up being a little...prickly. I'm not saying that they're always nice, but friends stick by each other even if they sometimes say or do things that can be interpreted as mean, especially if you know that they may have a reason (justified or not) to act that way. I wouldn't call Marigold a "pathetic, weird, smelly loser" and just the same way, Faye shouldn't be called a "bitch".
While I certainly don't identify with Faye or any other QC character, I used to like her a lot. Then somehow in the middle of my second run through the archives, that just changed. I won't deny she has some redeeming qualities, but I do find them massively overshadowed by her bad ones. She has reasons, but... why should anyone care? If someone treats you that way in real life, I bet you wouldn't stop to find out their reasons. I also bet Marten wouldn't have either if she wasn't the first attractive woman he'd (it's somewhat implied) spoken to in months.
I'm not tryin to change your mind, but have you ever had doubts about your own liking for Faye?
QCFan: Marigold is my favourite character these days. I don't let myself be bothered by what other people think too much, she's a character most people can't relate to. I understand that. I don't go quite as far in my devotion as you do though. :P
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She has reasons, but... why should anyone care?
The problem that I have is that Faye's excuses and reasons aren't fully accepted which is absolutely fine to me because just like you wrote "If someone treats you that way in real life, I bet you wouldn't stop to find out their reasons". I completely agree with that.
But somehow Marigold has excuses that no one would question, that's kind of, you know... unfair to say the least. They both have excuses or they haven't imo.
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I shouldn't have said that I identify with Faye, just that I've had friends like her. I've definitely questioned how "good" of a person Faye is and she's not my favourite character, I guess I just don't think that she's a horrible person. Hasn't everyone had moments where they've been pissed off at people they care about, whether it be family or friends, when they've said or done something we disagree with? I know I have. For me it's just about trying to see things from their point of view too, because we've all done inconsiderate or stupid things. (This should probably be in the "Faye's fundamental character" thread, sorry. Just keeping the conversation going).
The problem that I have is that Faye's excuses and reasons aren't fully accepted...but somehow Marigold has excuses that no one would question, that's kind of, you know... unfair to say the least. They both have excuses or they haven't imo.
Well put.
Mari has reasons for being the way she is, I just don't see how "people are mean to me because I'm a nerd, so I have issues interacting with people" is any more legitimate or understandable than "my dad killed himself in front of me, then my boyfriend dumped me because he couldn't handle the tragedy, then I got in a horrible car wreck, then I was kept under observation in the psychiatric ward in a hospital for weeks, then I moved as far away from home as possible because every person and thing in my home town reminded me of my tragedy, so I have issues interacting with people".
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Honestly I don't know what Marigold is supposed to need an excuse for. Most of the examples posted above of her supposedly being harsh or nasty to people are what I'd call fairly normal interaction. It's not that unusual to call someone a rude name in those situations. She also said several of those things in the context of an overall good relationship with Angus. He tends to let his mouth run away with him, he admitted this. He provokes her, she responds... they stay friends anyway. Nothing that needs an excuse.
Dale isn't a friend of hers at all, let us remember. While she does take her game a bit too seriously, I don't see why she should be friendly to him in the first place. She obviously doesn't find him interesting as a person or she would have overcome her natural reaction to "alliance scum" by now. The thing with Tai was completly unintentional, almost everyone has said something like that without thinking of the implications. She didn't mean that she'd need to be desperate to consider Tai specifically.
C'mon, tell me something she really needs an excuse for? I want to know, because she seems fairly inoffensive to me. Maybe not very sociable or very adept at interpersonal relationships, but not in any way a bad person. I admit that her constant talking about her low self-esteem could get a bit wearing though.
Now compare with Faye who is physically violent at the slightest provocation, has blamed people for things they had no way of avoiding, took advantage of a friend's attraction to her to obtain a place to live, and has a vanity that almost defies description. She has some good qualities as well, but it often seemed to me in the early days of the strip that she was cynically using Marten. I didn't see it that way at the time, but it eventually came to appear that way to me.
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Attempting to be fair to all involved (and we know how that will work) ... the perceptions of Marigold and Faye about which everyone's arguing are in the main those of one forumite who, because of things she's stated and implied (and we've inferred) in her posts, identifies much more strongly with Marigold than with, well, just about anyone or anything else in the comic. And I suspect there has been a Faye, or a Faye-nalog, in the forumite's own life, one who has done considerable damage, perceived or real. I don't think there's much question the forumite's responses to her fellow forumites remind one of Marigold at her most extreme. Lord knows I've started to type out a few replies to the forumite and, that thought catching me, deleted them instead of hitting "post." Even so, I managed to catch at least one stray lightning bolt. Oh well.
Hey, Mari reminds me of some aspects of myself in my teens and twenties (except the part about being female; I'm not female) and the winces she evinces are those of self-recognition. I never had a Faye in my life -- that is to say, some who combines abuse with fierce loyal protectiveness -- unless you count my sister in some of her finer moments. You learn to love it, at least if it's a real person and a blood relation.
I started reading QC when Faye was, in the main, playful with flashes of mean-spiritedness, and I have to admit her present single-note dourness is a bit of a disappointment, but that may be a function of her being relegated to the background in the last couple of arcs. (It seemed to start almost exactly when Veronica told her she and Marten would be a "terrible couple.") But I console myself with two thoughts: I'm not seeing the whiny-manipulative side of her that would make me want to slap the pixels off her ink-line layer, and ... none of this is real. I can banish it at any time by the simple act of closing my laptop.
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People are the most themselves when interacting with family, Momo is emotionally speaking family, and we get a pretty good impression of Marigirl from the way she treats Momo.
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The difference between Marigold and Faye is that we are aware of Faye's "deep dark issue". Marigold, AFAWK, doesn't have some similar issue - other than the little things we've heard from her about being teased and her social awkwardness.
On the plus side, she has grown a lot since she was introduced. Her room isn't the pigsty that it was when Marty and Dora brought Pintsize over to be repaired, and she is definitely caring more about her appearance (thanks, Dora).
...As an aside: I wonder if Dora and Marigold went out bra shopping like she suggested they should, back during the YouTube party?
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Wow, what a conversation...
Let's see...
Personally, I would describe Marigold as a shut-in because that's how she strikes me, even after what growth she has had. I identify with her (even as a guy, 'cause let's face it, bullies target both genders), but to the extent that she's taken it? That's being a bit too comfortable in the hole you're in. I knew a guy at my old workplace actually, who was his own kind of shut-in; he had a few friends, but he was THE MOST self-deprecating person I've ever met. He would NEVER hear of how he's got a lot to offer, and despite his own opinion wasn't a bad looking guy, but the thing of it is no matter how many of us (co-workers and friends alike) tried to get him out, have fun, put a smile on his face, it wouldn't take because in the end he didn't want to get out of his rut. He had been miserable for so long it was just too familiar, and somehow he was just more comfortable being miserable. He wasn't a bad guy at all; in fact, the guy was a total sweetheart to people every chance he got, but there are reasons we're not still really friends.
I see a LOT of similarities between him and Marigold. She didn't want to get "better" until people started involving themselves with her, and so far we stillo haven't seen much in the way of her propelling herself to do new things and involve herself. If the QC cast left her to her own devices to involve herself with them, do you think she'd do anything?
Given their perks and quirks together, I can quite easily say I'd rather have Faye as a friend than Marigold. Faye's good characteristics outweigh Marigold's for someone like me, even though I could go toe-to-toe with our respective bullied upbringing. For her sake I'd like to see her take the steps she needs to to come out of her shell, by her own power alone and because she wants to.
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What Marigold said to Tai could have had a lot of meanings. Yeah, Mari's not into girls, but also, let's not forget that Tai hits on pretty much every woman in their group of friends. I pretend that Mari meant "I'm not desperate enough to go for someone who hits on every girl, like you." Even though I know she meant she wasn't desperate enough to make out with another girl, which was mean, but she was just being honest.
She also took her pants off and practically tried to grope Mari, that doesn't leave the best impression.
Mari is one of those totally straight girls that I'd always be hoping and hoping would...be with a girl. lol. But not Tai.
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The difference between Marigold and Faye is that we are aware of Faye's "deep dark issue". Marigold, AFAWK, doesn't have some similar issue - other than the little things we've heard from her about being teased and her social awkwardness.
Previously on top of page two I wrote a long piece (a long long time ago) that Marigold is very much more of an introvert. It is quite clear that Faye isn't and is on the extrovert side of the scale.
Although we know from comments that Marigold was bullied etc, it is highly likely that she was bullied as a consesquence of her introvert nature (since introverts have less friends etc, introverts do seem to tend to be more likely to be picked on). Faye functioned normally until her dad's suicide.
Hence, a lot of Marigold's 'problems' are a thing of nature, whereas Faye's problem's are one of nurture. It is easier for Faye's problems to be dealt with professionally, but it'll be a lot harder for Marigold's 'problems' to be solved - and quite likely to a introvert's mindset, the 'problems' aren't really a problem.
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There's nothing wrong with Marigold.
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I really don't understand the poll options. They all seem to be 'Marigold is a bad person' options with varying degrees of qualification.
She obviously has issues with confidence and self-esteem, and has difficulty moving out of her comfort zone. Or maybe she's lazy. Point is, she has her issues (which cast member doesn't?) but the poll options seem to be entirely perpendicular to her most obvious ones.
I suppose they might have been intended just to get the conversation going, but they don't seem terribly useful to me. I went for 42. It's definitely the right answer - now I just need to understand the question.
Someone has tried to be funny. You may wish to review your post.
Nah.
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Hence, a lot of Marigold's 'problems' are a thing of nature, whereas Faye's problem's are one of nurture. It is easier for Faye's problems to be dealt with professionally, but it'll be a lot harder for Marigold's 'problems' to be solved - and quite likely to a introvert's mindset, the 'problems' aren't really a problem.
Bleah. So introverts are born, not made? Sure, some personalities are more introverted than others by their nature, but the teasing Mari suffered is a positive reenforcement of introversion, sending her deeper into it. That's learned behaviour, "nurture", and can be ameliorated with help.
And what happened to Faye had little if anything to do with nurture. Her way of coping with it was self destructive, but based on her nature - outgoing, interactive with other people (even if that interaction frequently ended in punches).
It's just not that cut and dried!
Oh, and QCfan, Mari has issues. Everyone in this comic (and IRL) has issues. You may not see them for what you percieve as her awesomeness, but Mari thinks of herself in a negative light (fat, smelly, ugly, etc.), and that's wrong - as you well know!
Oh, Tova posted, and said much the same things about Marigold's issues. Oh, well.
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Hence, a lot of Marigold's 'problems' are a thing of nature, whereas Faye's problem's are one of nurture. It is easier for Faye's problems to be dealt with professionally, but it'll be a lot harder for Marigold's 'problems' to be solved - and quite likely to a introvert's mindset, the 'problems' aren't really a problem.
Bleah. So introverts are born, not made? Sure, some personalities are more introverted than others by their nature, but the teasing Mari suffered is a positive reenforcement of introversion, sending her deeper into it. That's learned behaviour, "nurture", and can be ameliorated with help.
And what happened to Faye had little if anything to do with nurture. Her way of coping with it was self destructive, but based on her nature - outgoing, interactive with other people (even if that interaction frequently ended in punches).
It's just not that cut and dried!
My point is, even with counciling and therapy, Marigold will always be introverted as it appears to be her basic nature. She might be coaxed out to be less introvert on occassions but she won't be comfortable with it and needs a certain amount of (self)pressure. Correct to say the bullying is a positive re-enforcement, but speaking as an introvert myself, it is highly likely she would still be a socially awkward individual who seeks a small group of friends rather than a more normal sized group regardless of the bullying. Getting professional help won't give her the mentality to go out and be more comfortable in social situations. I would say a lot of the balance of who she is now is based more upon the 'nature' side of things than the 'nurture'.
I'd argue Faye is on the flip side of that in terms of her negative personality aspects. From the flashbacks, she doesn't seem the violent type prior to the suicide of her dad and since she has started receiving professional help, her consistancy of violent behaviour appears to have fallen - although she still slaps Pintsize (as does everyone including Hanners so maybe that doesn't count). Although Faye might have a bit of natural aggression in her personality, it appears her fathers sucicide acted as the thing that allows her to actively channel that aggression. I'd even suggest a lot of her violence is directly linked to her anger at not knowing why her father killed himself. As she recieves more councilling and comes to turns with the suicide, her anger will dampen and any violent outbursts will be minimal. Hence, because her behaviour can be de-learnt, her negative personality traits is where nurture is the dominant cause.
And yes I know it isn't always so cut and dried. People's characters are never 100% nature or 100% nurture and is in a sliding scale inbetween - in the same way people aren't 100% straight or 100% gay. But in terms of what is causing the negative personality characteristics, Marigold's is much more down to nature while Fayes is much more on the nurture side of things.
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There's nothing wrong with Marigold.
That would make her unique among the characters! But yes, definitely, introversion is not a defect.
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Joh_Knee,
Well put, thank you.
IsItColdInHere, QCfan,
Introversion in and of itself is not the problem. Self depreciation to the extent that it affects her ability to interact with others, that's a problem. The only thing really wrong with Marigold is her view of herself...
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Introversion in and of itself is not the problem. Self depreciation to the extent that it affects her ability to interact with others, that's a problem. The only thing really wrong with Marigold is her view of herself...
Carl-E's turn to beat me to it this time. Exactly right. And as such, I don't think that we can say with any confidence whether nature or nurture contributes more significantly to her self-esteem/self-respect issues.
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Of course she has issues, and of course she isn't perfect, but there's nothing wrong about it.
At least to me.
And yes, she is fucking awesome.
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I suspect her response to you saying that would be, "No I'm not. I'm fat, my nose is too big and I've got zits."
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And I'd say, "Hush, you're beautiful."
And then she'd be like... "I don't like girls like that."
And I'd be like... :oops:
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^Lolz, nice one. Took me a while to get the reference. You don't really get to the "recent" strips with the random button so it's been a while since I that. :P
Carl-E is right. Introversion isn't really a problem (I'm biased since I'm like that myself) but such a lack of self-steem (let's remember the time she tried to draw some stuff) is definitely not healthy.
When you learn to love yourself, people will love you back (if someone reads this as something sort of arrogant... That is totally not the way I meant it to be).
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I dislike the categories of "introvert" and "extrovert". I find it creates an us-and-them mentality and turns people into labels. There are lots of different reasons why a person might not be very social. The most objective definition is that an introvert finds socialising draining. But still, what the hell does that say about a person? They may only be exposed to annoying people, or not be interested in a certain type of activity, or just have such poor social skills that talking to people is a major challenge.
Until Marigold meets people who share her interests, do the same things as her (or expands her interests and activities she enjoys) and improves her social skills to the extent that she could be prom queen, we won't know if she's a shut-in by choice. I somehow doubt she is though.
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Well, she does socialize, in her online gaming community.
Maybe because it's safe, there?
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She knows what the rules are.
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And she can always kill everybody if she grows tired of it.
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She doesn't know what to do outside it. She told Momo that she doesn't know how to talk to people.
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I dislike the categories of "introvert" and "extrovert". I find it creates an us-and-them mentality and turns people into labels. ...... The most objective definition is that an introvert finds socialising draining.
I also dislike these categories, as they imply exclusivity, an introvert must be this stereotype, an extrovert must be this other stereotype, and never the twain shall meet.
I find that most people have introvert and extrovert tendencies, to different extents.... the old bell curve. I would be an introvert, by definition, because I have a need for time alone to recharge, rest, and introspect. However I am not a shy person; I enjoy social events, such as parties, and I also have fair people skills. I just don't want to be around people 24/7.
I've seen a couple of articles about introverts vs extroverts floating about the internet lately, and I'm disappointed by their content. They often paint introverts as oppressed, socially awkward people who channel the energy that they would otherwise spend socializing into work or learning. The articles paint extroverts as dumb partiers who put introverts down for not wanting to socialize.
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I dislike the categories of "introvert" and "extrovert". I find it creates an us-and-them mentality and turns people into labels. There are lots of different reasons why a person might not be very social. The most objective definition is that an introvert finds socialising draining. But still, what the hell does that say about a person? They may only be exposed to annoying people, or not be interested in a certain type of activity, or just have such poor social skills that talking to people is a major challenge.
Until Marigold meets people who share her interests, do the same things as her (or expands her interests and activities she enjoys) and improves her social skills to the extent that she could be prom queen, we won't know if she's a shut-in by choice. I somehow doubt she is though.
You probably dislike the categories of introvert and extrovert because you seem to associate negative attributes to the terms rather than accept people tend to lean in one direction or the other and both have their strengths and weaknesses in different circumstances. There is a sliding scale in terms of how intro/extro-verted someone is and no one is purely one or the other. Most people, regardless of their leaning, are sufficently close to the middle that they might feel uncomfortable in some situations, but are mentally able to cope. Additionally the social environment might pull someone closer to the middle - for example, an introverted person who works in an office will learn how to behave and how to communicate in that situation. Likewise, an extrovert might need to do the same thing depending on if the office is open plan and relaxed or a more serious one where people talk less - except in the staff kitchen areas.
Your definition that "the most objective definition is that an introvert finds socialising draining" is woefully wide of the mark. All people regardless of their intro/extro-vertedness need time out at times. An introvert is oten more than happy to spend time entertaining themselves (reading a book, watching a film, whatever) and don't need a lot of people and background noise to feel comfortable.
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I have no hard feelings or negative associations, so I apologise for coming off like that. I dislike it because it's like classifying creatures under "land animals" and "sea animals". Giving something a classification needs to be the result of a well thought out process, so you don't end up with "a sliding scale" and "partial introverts" (who might be completely different).
I did just remember something useful about it though. I read a study somewhere about the thinking patterns of self-identified introverts and extroverts. It found that "introverts" generate ideas and solutions more effectively alone, while "extroverts" do that more effectively when with others. Basically, according to their fancy neurology, a portion of brains in the population function in quiet, while the other portion functions in noise.
I usually sit in group brainstorming sessions without anything to say feeling all inadequate, then I come home and think of great ideas and want to kick myself. So that was interesting to learn. But then "the brain which functions in quiet" has to be the only definition of 'introvert', and personal generalisations shouldn't be made from it without scientific correlation etc. etc.
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My friend (whose mom is a psychoanalysist, or something similar) told me a story about a workplace, an office, where the boss was an extrovert, while the clerks mainly were introverts. Even though the boss was pretty much the nicest guy in the world, they all saw him as something of a psycho, since he would always run up and talk to them whenever he thought the office was too quiet while they were working. As introverts, they saw it as him trying to push them down and keep them in check. Things got better once they'd found out what the problem came from, though.
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My friend (whose mom is a psychoanalysist, or something similar) told me a story about a workplace, an office, where the boss was an extrovert, while the clerks mainly were introverts. Even though the boss was pretty much the nicest guy in the world, they all saw him as something of a psycho, since he would always run up and talk to them whenever he thought the office was too quiet while they were working. As introverts, they saw it as him trying to push them down and keep them in check. Things got better once they'd found out what the problem came from, though.
Honestly, I do think some outgoing people have a touch of mental illness. Going around talking to anyone, people you don't even know, just randomly talking all the time? Yeah, something about that screams "not right in the head." I've had customers at my job who tell me really personal things they honestly should not be telling strangers.
Being too introverted is messed up, but so is being too extroverted. It's better to be somewhere in the middle.
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Wellll... a mental illness would mean that those people would suffer from it. And they probably don't. Everyone should just behave how they want, intro- or extroverted. "Being in the middle" is not just a choice you make.
And of course, if someone wants to be left alone that should be respected.
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I knew someone who went on a plane flight and introduced herself to everyone on the 747.
That could be done by a healthy person several standard deviations out on the curve of friendliness, but in that case she eventually got a manic diagnosis.
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yeah, there are certainly people who suffer from extreme behavior like that. A lot of the people I've known who are extremely extroverted to the point of not being able to "turn it off" are often quite lonely. They make casual acquaintances easily, but have trouble with the more intimate interactions necessary for close friendships.
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Hi. Please to meetchya.
I've had both problems. There are times I need to be left alone, and times when I'm the life of the party, going from one conversation to another, making sure everyone's having a good time. I have no fear of getting in front of a bunch of strangers and selling myself.
But friends? True friends that I can talk honestly and openly with? Very few. Less than a handful.
And one of them I married.
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....
But friends? True friends that I can talk honestly and openly with? Very few. Less than a handful.
....
I'd actually call that healthy. With or without the marrying-one-of-them part.
Aesop called it, millenia ago: He who has many friends has no friends.
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I don't believe close relationships and/or trusting issues and the like has that much to do with being intro- or extroverted though. But that's just my opinion.
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Aesop called it, millenia ago: He who has many friends has no friends.
I've never come across that - but I understand it and like it.