THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)
Comic Discussion => QUESTIONABLE CONTENT => Topic started by: Is it cold in here? on 28 Feb 2011, 14:14
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If anyone can find a previous occurrence of this thread, I'll delete or merge this one.
The poll may have new options added as people suggest cool ones. You might want to hold off on voting until the poll stabilizes: apparently, as soon as you modify a poll, the "Allow user to change vote" feature stops working.
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No Meredith Brooks option? ("I'm a bitch, I'm a lover...")
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....Annndd, now that's stuck in my head.
Thanks.
Thanks a lot.
fucker...
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Some of my choices contradicted each other, much as if Faye were a Real Person.
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....Annndd, now that's stuck in my head.
Thanks.
Thanks a lot.
fucker...
You're welcome. :D
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Bumping an old thread partly because of references in the Marigold thread, but also because it seems that this didn't even get discussed, much less had the quality of discussion on the character that is coming up elsewhere...
I think a lot of people misjudge Faye because they don't see her as a "person," per se. Sure, we've all dealt with jerks and assholes, martyrs and morons, but most of us didn't have to deal with them on a daily basis. Those of us that do can usually tell the difference between them and the Fayes out there: Faye is still a friend to the people in QC, whereas those people we had encounters with are more likely to be termed bullies.
Faye has a rough exterior (I doubt anyone would challenge that), but the bare bones of her being still points her to be a fiercly loyal friend who would stick her neck out (preceded by two powerful fists) for those she cares about. Even when she appears to be sassing her friends in ways we might consider "cruel" she does a good portion of it for their betterment. Could she be doing it in a more respectful, subdued manner? Of course she could, but then she wouldn't quite be the same person. Anyone else could fill the "gentle nudge" position, but it takes a certain kind of gusto to really give you that kick in the ass to just STOP MOANING ABOUT IT AND DO SOMETHING ALREADY (and I'm sure many of you have known someone who really needed that at one point or another).
The people in QC have the benefit of being in the position of recieving her words and actions which, let's face it, always look different than when coming at it from a 3rd-party viewpoint. They also have the benefit of doing stuff behind the scenes, whereas our opinions can only really be formed by what we are allowed to view through the comics. We extrapolate the rest based on what we feel would be most logical, as well as our own experiences. While we are doing our best, this still doesn't bring us any closer to being Faye's "friend," those who would figure out before us why we'd want her around and not kick her to the curb. Though I'll concede you may never want more than ONE of her, she's a damned worthwhile friend to have in my opinion: one that has your back no matter what and is both able and willing to tell you when youve screwed up. The cost? Sass and the need to toughen up that thin skin a bit. And i'd take that trade.
I did my best to avoid the "she's had such a hard time" aspect of making excuses and taking her for what she is, not how she got that way. Now I'm curious as to how many may agree.
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In my opinion wide patches of QC live plenty off the witty banter between Faye and her friends.
You know who she reminds me of? Leela from Futurama.
A lady with a hot, steaming body combined with insecurity-induced mental flaws that are always prepared to vent off in bursts of uncalled violence. But in her very own way she's kind enough at heart to not cause serious damage to anyone, and as long as she feels safe she is quite capable of friendship and compassion.
I find this concept of sexy trouble highly appealing. I can do fine without such a specimen in my personal environment, thank you very much, but it's kinda fun to watch other (hopefully fictional) characters to collect bruises by encountering her.
For an invented (punch-line centric) character she has considerable depth, only it's a bit of a challenge to take her superhuman strength for serious, or her broadsword-wielding without getting in legal trouble. If we bloody insist on venturing into "Ha ha, only serious" territory, we might wonder, where she does her welding or if she is honest about having no further ambitions for her life than working at the COD.
As for her boyfriend: Professional straw man? Come on, give me a break.
I love her, for what she is: An enticing cartoon character, well thought out, fun to watch, a challenge to her environment with buckloads of surprises in store. Nasty surprises, if the story demands.
Come on, we're here for she show. Aren't we?
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I will admit that when Faye was grossing out Marten saying that her asshole was killing her and saying she had to wipe 40 times to get clean, etc, it was funny. That's perhaps one of the few times I actually enjoyed Faye. She does that less often now.
It's just funny because men share their every bodily function, but when a woman does, men (of all people) are like
O_O
Sometimes she amuses me, but mostly I think she's a bitch. As people here well know.
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I will admit that when Faye <snip> it was funny. That's perhaps one of the few times I actually enjoyed Faye.
<snip>
Sometimes she amuses me, but mostly I think she's a bitch. As people here well know.
Well, that's a bit of an improvement.
I have to admit, it was the witty banter that attracted me to the comic in the first place, and Faye in particular was one of the best at it. Her violence early on was very much cartoon violence - as someone who grew up schooled on Looney Tunes, Tom & Jerry and Popeye cartoons, it never really bothered me.
With increased realism in both the writing and the art the violence became more disturbing. But it also seemed to change somewhat in nature, and with things like the introduction of Raven, Faye gained a lot of introspection into what was going on inside her, and what was causing her to be so violent. I kind of doubt that the violence stemmed from her father's suicide, rather I think that spawned her trust issues. The violence had probably been there all along, in the form of "roughhousing" with her sister, being a "tomboy" growing up, etc. It just became another manifestation of her issues after the "incident", a way that she used to cope with disturbing situations.
And the violence has abated. Did she mop up the floor with Dora? No, she hugged her (then threatened her if she didn't do what needed to be done). The espressosaurus sale, therapy, and her new relationship with Angus seem to be mellowing her, or at least alleviating some of the stress that caused her to react to things with violence. I hope the spotlight of Jeph's storytelling swings back to her, it's been a while since we've really been able to see what she's been up to.
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Are you kidding me? Dora can break up with her boyfriend if she wants. That's one instance where Faye was WAY out of line. She had no right to confront Dora about it the way she did.
Don't misunderstand me; I still very much dislike Faye. But on very very rare occasions, she has said something that amused me.
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The thread about whether Dora needed to be pushed into therapy (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php?topic=26849.0;wap2).
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...and here it is in standard form (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,26849.0.html).
Seriously, where'd that link come from?
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From Google. I've found it to work better than the forum's search function.
Amanda ran to Faye instead of any of her local or school friends. That says something, if it wasn't just a dramatic device to introduce her.
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Are you kidding me? Dora can break up with her boyfriend if she wants. That's one instance where Faye was WAY out of line. She had no right to confront Dora about it the way she did.
I disagree. As a friend and privy to the relationship by way of living with the couple as a roommate, knowing both parties involved the way she does, she had a far greater understanding of the two people involved. What this means is Faye was made quite aware of the issues concerning the break-up, and as I mentioned above Faye is one of those people who will give you a swift kick in the ass when you need it.
Dora is very much a person who can make up her own mind, and had she decided she wanted to move on from Marten (even without giving a reason, or if she just felt like it), I doubt there wouldn't have been anything more than a "What happened?" kind of discussion. But she knew the why of it. And in the role of the kind of person she is, she called bullshit on the motion. This is her character, and what makes her so valuable; what she said could have been said differently, but the core of it NEEDED to be said. Dora had already prior stated that she wanted to change and not be so insecure, and Faye saw her using those insecurities to make an issue of something that didn't need to happen the way it did.
If you had known you had an issue - any issue, alcoholism, some other addiction, bad hygiene, whatever - and you made excuses or otherwise kept falling into a hole to indulge that issue to your detriment, would it not be useful to have a friend to help drag you out of it?
So yeah, I disagree. I see in that instance Faye doing Dora a service as a friend, in the way she feels it would best be taken seriously. Plus, it still suited the comic and set up the punchline.
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What does it mean that Faye never had a pet or an AnthroPC?
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Never having a pet could mean allergies in the family.
AnthroPC's were probably expensive when first introduced, and Faye's family may not have been well off enough to get her one.
I wonder if there were some runing around the hospital when she was recuperating, like those therapy animals... cute little AnPC's, there to cheer you up!
...and how many of them wound up dented after being flung across a hospital room?
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AnthroPCs to cheer up hospital patients (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=821).
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What does it mean that Faye never had a pet or an AnthroPC?
She might not have wanted the responsibility at that time in her life.
[PURE SPECULATION]
Also, Faye had severe psychological issues concerning trust and abandonment after her father killed himself in front of her. Then she had that car crash, which probably underlined her mortality to her as well as made her think of how her loved ones would feel if she died so soon after her father died.
Moving north allowed her to put some distance between herself and her loved ones, gave her emotional space and an escape from the memories, and maybe she felt that it wouldn't be as terrible for them if she died/got hurt far away, then none of her relatives would find her body or see her die.
If she was thinking in those terms then having a pet or an anthroPC wouldn't make sense. She wasn't looking for companionship of that kind, she didn't want something to depend on her, it would be abandoned if something happened to her.
Even her relationships in North Hampton were distant at first, she insulted everyone to keep them from getting too attached. Then there was that fire in her apartment, maybe it acted as a wake up call to her. She realized she wanted to live and wanted closer friendships. So she moved in with Marten. It was close enough that she could grow a bit, but she could still move out when she had the means and keep the friendship intact.
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... I see in that instance Faye doing Dora a service as a friend, in the way she feels it would best be taken seriously. Plus, it still suited the comic and set up the punchline.
I find it worth noting Faye did not insist Dora get back together with, or even reconcile with, Marten, just that Dora (her longest-standing friend in the comic) find help dealing with the issues that torpedoed the relationship in the first place. And Faye did not offer to be the go-between in any Marten-Dora peace treaty; she (rightly) insisted that if Marten had something to say to Dora, he say it himself.
She's no enabler, is the Pugnacious Peach. Hats off to her, at a safe distance.
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... I see in that instance Faye doing Dora a service as a friend, in the way she feels it would best be taken seriously. Plus, it still suited the comic and set up the punchline.
I find it worth noting Faye did not insist Dora get back together with, or even reconcile with, Marten, just that Dora (her longest-standing friend in the comic) find help dealing with the issues that torpedoed the relationship in the first place. And Faye did not offer to be the go-between in any Marten-Dora peace treaty; she (rightly) insisted that if Marten had something to say to Dora, he say it himself.
She's no enabler, is the Pugnacious Peach. Hats off to her, at a safe distance.
She's just insisted, through the threat of physical violence, that Dora go to therapy. Then she was incredibly pushy about therapy when Dora wanted to go on a harmless date. She is the definition of an enabler. Faye made her point the first time, now she needs to back off and let Dora make her own decisions like a grown up.
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It should also be noted that it doesn't appear that AnthroPC's were as ubiquitous back at the start of the comic as they are now. Faye saw Pintsize more as a curiosity than something commonplace when they first met.
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She's just insisted, through the threat of physical violence, that Dora go to therapy. Then she was incredibly pushy about therapy when Dora wanted to go on a harmless date. She is the definition of an enabler. Faye made her point the first time, now she needs to back off and let Dora make her own decisions like a grown up.
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1946
"Incredibly pushy?" That would be a very different opinion, as far as I'm concerned. I didn't find it pushy, and certainly not "incredibly." Faye, if anything, was being a lot less sassy with her reminder (that's what I'd call it) about what Dora had expressed was what she wanted.
Also, Enabler: someone who one provides another (someone else) with adequate power, means, opportunity, or authority (to do something). What exactly are you suggesting faye is enabling with regards to Dora, and how is it so far-reaching as to cover her fundamental character?
Also, looks to me like Dora has had plenty of time to make her decisions as a grown up all her own - however, that's already been discussed at length in the "Does Dora need therapy?" thread.
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Because of all the recent discussions of Faye, I realized I don't have much of an opinion of her. Therefore, I'm going to dive into the archive and see what I find. I've read through the first 25 strips again with the goal of finding out what I think of her. Here are my notes:
1-2. N/A (Applies to strips she doesn't appear in, doesn't speak in, or have something said about her in.)
3. Just exists. Super-thin! (Edit to add: Just commenting on how her body has changed throughout the strip, even though it has no impact on her personality. This is more for me to keep track of when things change.)
4. A bit brash and somewhat violent but is trying to protect herself and her potential new friends (mostly herself). First indication of her not wanting a relationship.
5. Warming up to being around other people. Curious about Pintsize and decides he’s cute. If only she knew.
6. Overhears Marten but isn’t offended by his musings about how hot she is and talking to himself. Seems a bit amused by it, actually.
7. Shows her indie cred without being obnoxious. Mostly.
8. Says she enjoyed hanging out with the boys and wants to see them again.
9. N/A
10. Being a good friend to her co-worker. Brings up Marten in a nice way. Jokingly gives Sara permission to rape him because she knows Marten would enjoy it.
11. N/A
12. Goes to Marten because she’s “bored and ravenous.” Her mom calls, and she lets her know that Marten is nice. Quirky humor showing.
13. Gives Marten a friendly (but hard) nipple pinch to demonstrate how to get someone’s attention.
14. Has a harsh attitude toward vegetarians, vegans, and hippies.
15-16. N/A
17. Suddenly brings up difficulties related to pooping while eating with Marten. Seems to enjoy horrifying him.
18. Still talking about butts. Brings up pornos and says that all guys are obsessed with butts. Sarcastic about Marten’s “no anal” philosophy.
19. Says she enjoyed having dinner with Marten and hugs him, saying she likes having someone to hang out with. Pretends Marten has a roll of quarters in his pocket instead of him being “happy to see her.”
20-21. N/A
22. She’s apparently not very good at making toast—burned her apartment down and is asking Marten if she can stay with him. Has yet to stop using contractions.
23. Is it just me, or does she keep getting thinner? Calls her mom just to freak her out about staying with a boy…
24. N/A
25. New haircut! Seems pleased with it and wants to show it off. Says she’ll sleep on the couch when offered Marten’s bed with him. Glares at the suggestion of sharing Marten’s bed.
So far, I don't like her as much as I remember liking her in the beginning. I don't think I had much of an opinion of her then, but it seems to me now that she goes back and forth between being semi-hateful (She seems to not like anyone who isn't like her and judges them for not being like her) and really friendly/in need of a friend. What Jeph uses for her sense of humor just ends up rubbing me the wrong way. I'm all about treating people with kindness, even when they don't seem like they deserve it. She kinda goes out of her way to say negative things about people for the sake of humor. Which I disagree with. Of course, I am only 25 strips in. I'm not seeing any indications of her having some kind of psychological backlash regarding what happened with her dad as of yet, so if I were to stop reading the comic here, I would just see her as the caustic person I wouldn't mind being around for very short periods of time.
I'm going to continue slowly going through the archive and seeing what I think from there. How often would you like me to update you guys with what I'm seeing from her?
This way, we can see if her good moments really do outshine her bad moments or vice versa. Sound good?
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I also cannot imagine leading a man I was actually attracted to on for that long. I am a screwed up woman with hella issues, just like Faye, but I wouldn't make him (and myself!) suffer like that. I just can't imagine acting the way she did, or pretending an erection was a roll of quarters, or punching the man that I was falling in love with for touching my butt. I would WANT him to touch my butt...
I don't get her using her "issues" as an excuse to do what she did. I have issues and I still wouldn't screw around like that with someone I was really attracted to, which she claimed to be to Marten.
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It's rather simple, really: people are different!
Your own feelings make a very poor predictor of how other people may feel or act.
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At least Faye didn't lead Marten on. She told him in their first conversation that she didn't want to date him. She wanted to be friends.
Faye could have dated Marten, knowing full well that she wasn't ready for a relationship, and been in a miserable, toxic, relationship. (making both of them miserable, esp since she wasnt' ready to talk to anyone, including Marten, about the underlying causes for her defensive emotional distance.)
She even denied her own attraction to Marten (at least that's what I read in the comic, this might be speculation on my part). She liked him, he liked her, she knew that she wasn't in an emotionally healthy place for dating.
She should have had "the talk" with Marten a lot sooner. a LOT sooner. but it might have been too painful for her to talk about.
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Isn't "enabler" a term used for someone who enables another to continue living the way they have been living? That is, continuing with the bad decisions that made their life what it is? Usually it's used for the people around (for example) and alcoholic, who take care of the parts of the alcoholic's life that the alcoholic can't deal with - thus enabling him/her to continue in their alcoholism.
Or whatever the problem is that the person has...
in this case, Faye is un-enabling Dora to continue living in the denial that destroyed her relationship with Marten, and possibly with others. Really, what she's doing is quite the opposite of enabling.
Marten, on the other hand, by trying to smooth things over, or walking on eggshells or whatever he did to stay with Dora? That was classic enabling.
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At least Faye didn't lead Marten on. She told him in their first conversation that she didn't want to date him.
This is true, I can't blame her for Marten's hopeless attraction. However she did take advantage of that attraction in a lot of ways.
So far, I don't like her as much as I remember liking her in the beginning. I don't think I had much of an opinion of her then, but it seems to me now that she goes back and forth between being semi-hateful (She seems to not like anyone who isn't like her and judges them for not being like her) and really friendly/in need of a friend. What Jeph uses for her sense of humor just ends up rubbing me the wrong way. I'm all about treating people with kindness, even when they don't seem like they deserve it. She kinda goes out of her way to say negative things about people for the sake of humor.
With the difference that I remember liking her the first time I read QC from the begining, this is how my perceptions have changed too. The first time I read it my perceptions of her were coloured by the belief that she and Marten would eventually get together as a couple. Knowing that they do not and will not changes a lot.
What I once perceived as flirting and as the natural progression of a relationship I now see as Faye cynically taking advantage of Marten's attraction for her. She knows damn well he wouldn't go out of his way for her if he didn't have a crush. She also knew from the start that she wouldn't entertain a relationship with him.
Of course she never had entirely straightforward feelings about the possibility of that relationship either. When she found out that Dora and Marten had started dating, she was still angry with Dora for 'stealing' Marten even though she had no intention of claiming him for herself. I guess she just didn't want to lose exclusive rights to her toy.
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The Peach is more of a disabler. Even without the coffee shop's inexplicable cutlery.
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...Even without the coffee shop's inexplicable cutlery.
Your thinking disemboweler.
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It's rather simple, really: people are different!
Your own feelings make a very poor predictor of how other people may feel or act.
Sadly, some people can't grasp that obvious fact.
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309 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=309) and 41 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=41) are, if not leading Marten on, arguably outside the range of normal flirting.
Faye said she "deserved" Dora's criticism in 511 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=511) of her for stringing Marten along.
I accept that this was the result of her psychological problems rather than bad character, but as Faye said in 567 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=567), "... that doesn't mean I'm exempt from the consequences".
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309 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=309)
We have those obscure dialects of girlese in the German language, too.
Actually, I can't imagine a living language that's missing these dialects (Maybe "missing" is the wrong word).
41 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=41)
That's just playful fayesque malevolence. Come on guys, be reasonable: She didn't even threaten to mutilate him. 8-)
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Some isolated thoughts:
- 1. We don't have an exact timeline, but from some comments by Faye: "She knew hardly anyone in town" + "She moved up North shortly after the hospital visit" we might infer that in the earliest strips Faye was more or less fresh out of therapy. She was very much feeling her way around, and much more vulnerable than her tough girl front might lead us to believe.
- 2. On a couple of occasions she tried to push Marten/Dora into each others arms. Admittedly that usually happened in a manner that could be interpreted as a joke. Anyway, she was obviously aware of Marten's budding feelings, and may have wanted to redirect them.
- 3. For a long time she was genuinely undecided about whether she can date A) anyone, B) Marten. The incidents on the previous item happened when the eventual 'No'-side was winning. At the times when 'May be' was winning, she was dodging any queries with non-commital noises.
- 4. Marten was mostly very gentlemanly, but when he got Faye a new pair of glasses from the company health care, I think that was a bit thoughtless. He really shouldn't have put Faye in the spot like that.
- 5. May be Jeph was milking everything out of the "will they or won't they" -dynamics during the early centuries? Seems to have worked for him, but as many a soap opera depends on such a pairing, it may have felt like a risk to give up on it. That may be one of the reasons that a resolution took a bit longer than some fans might have wanted. Anyway, the lead up to The Talk: MartyMom visiting. Faye realizing that awkwardness will ensue, unless they have a resolution. Faye gaining enough trust on her friends and mustering up the courage to open up about her past, was very well done IMVHO.
- 6. Faye, Marten and their friendship have grown immensely over the years. If the recent drunken pass/owls -incident had taken place well before the Talk? Well, many tears would have been shed (not forgetting more bruises), they might no longer be friends, et cetera. But now it was downplayed very smoothly.
- 7. When trying to decide how I feel about the members of the cast (ok, I luv 'em all) I tend to give less weight to what they say as punch lines. I don't know, if this makes sense? The punchlines are often obvious exaggerations. So perhaps I treat those a bit like what people might say when drunk?
Does this really say anything about Faye's fundamental character? We may say that she took advantage of Marten's affection early on. I guess I'm trying to say that some of that was "accidental" and, upon realizing that that's how it would look like to an outsider, she tried to remedy the situation, but A) was somewhat undecided about what she wanted from Marten B) lacked the courage to clear the fog. Not impeccable behavior, but not a deadly sin either.
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It's rather simple, really: people are different!
Your own feelings make a very poor predictor of how other people may feel or act.
Sadly, some people can't grasp that obvious fact.
Thanks. That's incredibly sweet.
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I don't think that was aimed particularly at you, QCF.
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- 2. On a couple of occasions she tried to push Marten/Dora into each others arms. Admittedly that usually happened in a manner that could be interpreted as a joke.
I'm drawing a blank on this. I remember her being unhappy with the double date. Can you remind me of some examples of Faye playing matchmaker?
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It's rather simple, really: people are different!
Your own feelings make a very poor predictor of how other people may feel or act.
Sadly, some people can't grasp that obvious fact.
Thanks. That's incredibly sweet.
jwhouk is actually correct. If I really wanted to aim it at somebody in specific, I wouldn't joke around. I will directly post their name on the comment.
Don't think you are the only one that has given criticism to x character based on their own lives, feelings, interpretation and hypothesis that are barely based on the comic but just their own thoughts. Spend a few months in the forum and you will see that a lot of people do that.
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Okay, I've got to confess: There were times and places I did behave like Pintsize.
I didn't get flung to the wall, though, but not for lack of merit.
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Okay, I've got to confess: There were times and places I did behave like Pintsize.
I didn't get flung to the wall, though, but not for lack of merit.
Do you have a conveniently basketball-sized (and shaped) head and weigh less than thirty lbs?
That's probably why.
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[list of thoughts]
Great post, spot on.[/list]