THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)
Comic Discussion => QUESTIONABLE CONTENT => Topic started by: stoutfiles on 09 Jun 2011, 15:54
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Alright, so Dora's had a string of bad relationships. Is that really therapy-worthy?
Dora does some things to begin the end of her relationship with Marte... and Faye declares she needs therapy. For the record, Faye is the only character that really needed therapy to get over her father's death. Characters like Hanners and Dora, that's just who they are. Dora needs to be with someone she wants to be with and trusted, else she wouldn't be acting the way she does.
I've not convinced she was happy with Marten; therefore, she created situations in her mind to get mad at him. Dora's a young, successful business woman. Marten is a flaky librarian assistant with no ambition to do anything. Once the initial attraction wore off, I wouldn't put it past Dora to wonder why she was even dating someone who didn't have the same drive as her. Marten is...well....kind of a loser when you look at the big picture. So Dora breaks up with him, with hardly any emotion towards it, and now she needs to get help? I think not.
Dora, you're perfectly fine. Date someone that's more your type and it'll work out fine.
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Whoa. Are you reading the same comic?
Dora knows she's messed up and needs help (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1799).
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She needs help because she's not compatible with Marten? Huh?
Also, she was COMPLETELY RIGHT about Marten still having feelings for Faye, which came out while he was drunk. Dora was his choice ONLY because Faye wasn't available. I don't blame her for not wanting to be second place.
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Maybe, but Hanners has admitted at one stage that she could barely cope with anything without the therapy. And look at her now.
The problem with Dora was that despite Faye and Marten telling her repeatedly that nothing would ever happen between them, Dora still thought in the back of her mind that Marten wanted Faye, even though that ship sank and became a coral reef by 509 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=509).
And again with drunk Marten and Faye? Really?! Seriously?! The guy had just been dumped by his girlfriend, the woman he loved and who had made a commitment to move in with him. His world gets turned upside down and fubar'd beyond belief, oh and not to mention Pintsize bending over with a fleshlight and a drawing of Dora's ass taped over it. Seriously?! Thats the moment you're picking? Marten was in drunken jerkass horndog mode. Where the fuck do people get the idea that alcohol is this all powerful truth serum? Its not. Its literally fucking poison! If it wasn't Faye who turned up, it would have been Hanners, or Raven if she was around. Hell if Steve turned up, Marten might have gone after him.
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There are people who'd pay to see that...
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True, and all it would cost is a bottle of bourbon. (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1639)
Or it'll cost Steve a few years in prison after murdering Marten.
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Murder? Steve's the one who was willing to have drunken gay makeouts with Marten. (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1639)
ThEvilDog put it quite aptly, but I just wanted to chip in that another awful reason using the drunken come-on as proof Marten has feelings for Faye is that very situation would never have arisen had Dora not freaked out and broken up with him in the first place! OP, do you understand cause and effect?
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A.) The Marten-secretly-wants-Faye vs. Marten-was-drunk argument isn't going to end anytime soon, I think.
B.) Dora needs help dealing with her doesn't-trust-people issues, which have been directed (with respect to Marten) not only at Faye but at Cosette and Hanners (Hanners!). ("Aren't you glad Marten doesn't have anything like that in HIS closet?" "How would YOU know?")
C.) Gonna head out on a limb here: Dora is rock-certain Marten is unassertive, but feared he'd chase Faye? No no no. She knows she chased Marten (even while Faye was thought to be in the game) and he'd go with whatever was decided. She might have feared she couldn't trust Marten, but who did she trust even less? Faye, arguably her best friend. She fears and mistrusts the most those who are closest to her. Perhaps justifiable, at least from her history according to Sven, but something she needs to work through.
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Alright, so Dora's had a string of bad relationships. Is that really therapy-worthy?
Do you have experience of bad relationships or therapy?
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Murder? Steve's the one who was willing to have drunken gay makeouts with Marten. (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1639)
You do realise you linked the exact same comic as me, right? :laugh:
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The problem with Dora was that despite Faye and Marten telling her repeatedly that nothing would ever happen between them, Dora still thought in the back of her mind that Marten wanted Faye, even though that ship sank and became a coral reef by 509 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=509).
"And if, sometime in the future, you happen to be ready for a relationship and I happen to be available..." - Marten
Hell, that quote was in the strip you just linked to! So Marten waited like he always does, and Dora swooped in to get him, but then resented the fact that he liked her friend instead of her at the time. That's not a story I'd want to tell in the future.
"Well, your dad liked my friend and was just waiting for her to be single, so I hit on him and he just went with it like he always does with everything!"
-"So, if the other girl had changed her mind he would have picked her over you?"
"Well, yes I suppose so..."
-"Oh. So you were just second best?"
"Um...."
Or even...
-"Why do you like Daddy?"
"Well, he's nice...and um...he supports me..."
-"So why does Daddy stay home everyday?"
"You know your dad, he never really liked any job that involved a lot of work, so he stays home to take care of you after school."
-"He's said today he's going to start up his band again!"
"Oh really...he didn't look for a job today?"
"No, he said he spent the most of the day at the pastry shop. I think he's going out with Steve tonight, can I go too? He said to ask you for permission!"
Where the fuck do people get the idea that alcohol is this all powerful truth serum?
Because, in most cases, it is an all-powerful truth serum. You say things you think but normally wouldn't say out loud. It also will make you hornier than usual. Combine the two and there are problems.
Rarely ever do we have a character monologue with himself. We don't know for 100% certainty that Marten had moved on completely just because he said so. In the past I thought I was over ex's and then, turns out I wasn't. Now that Faye is in a relationship we won't see Marten do anything but once she becomes single...
Alright, so Dora's had a string of bad relationships. Is that really therapy-worthy?
Do you have experience of bad relationships or therapy?
No, but I have enough experience to know that almost everyone on Earth would be in therapy if it was determined that failed relationships were needing of it. I don't advocate depression pills or therapy for a failed relationship for the same reason I don't suggest those things if you fall off a bicycle. It happens. It's life. Get back on and keep trying.
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Murder? Steve's the one who was willing to have drunken gay makeouts with Marten. (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1639)
You do realise you linked the exact same comic as me, right? :laugh:
I'm sorry! I didn't click your link; I assumed it went to the strip where they get the glowing bourbon cause I hadn't thought of the other one until I started typing my post. I'm not a copier, just an idiot :-P
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Do you have experience of bad relationships or therapy?
No, but I have enough experience to know [...]
For perspective, can you give us an indication of how much experience is necessary for certainty? Because I've not managed that yet.
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Because, in most cases, it is an all-powerful truth serum. You say things you think but normally wouldn't say out loud. It also will make you hornier than usual. Combine the two and there are problems.
Bullshit. You don't think clearly when drunk. Yeah, you are more likely to say the things you are thinking, but you are also way more likely to be THINKING THINGS YOU WOULDN'T BE THINKING. I have, enough experience with both myself and other people drinking to know that its not truth that comes out when people are drunk. You are prone to exaggeration, bad jokes, misremembering, and impulsive "thinking with the other head" behavior. I'm not sure how that is "the truth".
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Because, in most cases, it is an all-powerful truth serum. You say things you think but normally wouldn't say out loud. It also will make you hornier than usual. Combine the two and there are problems.
Bullshit. You don't think clearly when drunk. Yeah, you are more likely to say the things you are thinking, but you are also way more likely to be THINKING THINGS YOU WOULDN'T BE THINKING. I have, enough experience with both myself and other people drinking to know that its not truth that comes out when people are drunk. You are prone to exaggeration, bad jokes, misremembering, and impulsive "thinking with the other head" behavior. I'm not sure how that is "the truth".
Right, you say things that will help your chances with another woman. But angry rants? Those are always thoughts, repressed or not, that you don't just make up. Marten clearly felt what he was saying. He liked her, it didn't workout for him but it worked out for Angus, and he was pissed about it. That wasn't a made-up feeling.
Do you have experience of bad relationships or therapy?
No, but I have enough experience to know [...]
For perspective, can you give us an indication of how much experience is necessary for certainty? Because I've not managed that yet.
When you're in a relationship good enough to where you look back on past relationships, some of which you thought you'd never get over, and realize why it never worked out and how you're better off for not being with them instead. It's possible without therapy, believe it or not.
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Because, in most cases, it is an all-powerful truth serum. You say things you think but normally wouldn't say out loud. It also will make you hornier than usual. Combine the two and there are problems.
Bullshit. You don't think clearly when drunk. Yeah, you are more likely to say the things you are thinking, but you are also way more likely to be THINKING THINGS YOU WOULDN'T BE THINKING. I have, enough experience with both myself and other people drinking to know that its not truth that comes out when people are drunk. You are prone to exaggeration, bad jokes, misremembering, and impulsive "thinking with the other head" behavior. I'm not sure how that is "the truth".
Right, you say things that will help your chances with another woman. But angry rants? Those are always thoughts, repressed or not, that you don't just make up. Marten clearly felt what he was saying. He liked her, it didn't workout for him but it worked out for Angus, and he was pissed about it. That wasn't a made-up feeling.
Or it could be that he was acting out exactly what Dora was expecting of him. There are so many explanations for why he acted that way and it is really the only evidence of him still having romantic feelings for Faye, and its pretty flimsy considering how emotionally screwed he was at the time on top of being drunk.
The thing is, you are making up reasons for why Dora broke up with Marten, when we have reasons that are STATED in the comic, by HER. You made up these reasons that she felt he was beneath her and such. Nothing like that has ever been mentioned in comic. In fact, everything in comic stated that he was the best boyfriend she had EVER HAD. I just, really don't see your perspective when you can't pull any EVIDENCE of it other than how you feel about the situation. Nothing I can remember implies that SHE felt anything like that. Of course, you could go search for it, and I would listen if you actually showed anything that comes close to implying she thought he wasn't good enough for her, but until that point, this just seems, pointless. Its an argument based on your own vague feelings with no support from what the characters actually say.
The theory that she broke up with him because her insecurities on the other hand, DOES have a shit ton of evidence in the comic.
So Dora breaks up with him, with hardly any emotion towards it, and now she needs to get help?
Wait WHAT?!, I must have missed this when I was reading it before. Man, that sure was a lot of tissues and crying for someone doing something with hardly any emotion.
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"If you take steps to get yourself fixed up - I mean therapy, medication, whatever it takes, I'll do my best to treat you as a friend, not as a girlfriend in waiting". That was Marten, doing the decent thing and being a friend, not a guy looking for a quick lay. That wasn't romantic, that was just a guy trying to help his best friend.
So what about those people who find life so crushingly depressing that they feel that they have no choice but to end it all? Some people can "get by" with they're problems, but not everyone has that luxury. You can't talk to family, or to friends, so some people choose to go to a therapist. Thats the essential part of therapy, its just talking to someone who is impartial and offers you a new perspective, listening to your problems and offering you help. Even you have to admit that its good to just talk to someone.
Dora, pre comic, has gone out with guys, who by the accounts of her parents, brother, and her own violition, have abused her, treated her like crap and who could be considered to be worse than the crap on the street. So what clear and rational reason could Dora have for destroying her relationship with the first decent guy she ever had a romantic relationship? You have to admit that despite the fact that Faye and Marten telling her that nothing would ever happen between them, that their friendship had evolved so much since they met that nothing could happen. She admitted that when they broke up that it was her issues of trust that caused her to break them up. You have to admit that is something that someone really needs to work on with a therapist.
As for you "truth serum"? You know what it really is? Its bacteria shit. The breakdown of grains and hops and whatever else you're brewing or distilling is done by bacteria, the results of which are served up in bottles and glasses for consumtion. I've grown up around alcohol, I've worked around it. It doesn't unlock the inner you, or reveals some great truth about you. It kills some brains, slows the reaction time of the body, dehydrates your body and acts as a depressant.
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I'm sorry! I didn't click your link; I assumed it went to the strip where they get the glowing bourbon cause I hadn't thought of the other one until I started typing my post. I'm not a copier, just an idiot :-P
Ah, you're alright. With the amount of bourbon they drink in the comic, its pretty easy to get confused.
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Dora mused long ago about getting therapy to overcome her issues with her brother.
She broke up with the first decent guy she ever dated, a guy she said made her happy. It was not a decision aimed at improving her life, as it might have been if she'd dumped him for someone with ambition. This wasn't a routine met-someone-else or couldn't-stand-him-anymore kind of breakup.
Freud defined mental health as the ability to love and to work. Dora has work down, but has a continuous string of failed relationships, and if she went for abusive guys because she was insecure, then they all failed for the same reason.
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Or it could be that he was acting out exactly what Dora was expecting of him. There are so many explanations for why he acted that way and it is really the only evidence of him still having romantic feelings for Faye, and its pretty flimsy considering how emotionally screwed he was at the time on top of being drunk.
The thing is, you are making up reasons for why Dora broke up with Marten, when we have reasons that are STATED in the comic, by HER. You made up these reasons that she felt he was beneath her and such. Nothing like that has ever been mentioned in comic. In fact, everything in comic stated that he was the best boyfriend she had EVER HAD. I just, really don't see your perspective when you can't pull any EVIDENCE of it other than how you feel about the situation. Nothing I can remember implies that SHE felt anything like that. Of course, you could go search for it, and I would listen if you actually showed anything that comes close to implying she thought he wasn't good enough for her, but until that point, this just seems, pointless. Its an argument based on your own vague feelings with no support from what the characters actually say.
The theory that she broke up with him because her insecurities on the other hand, DOES have a shit ton of evidence in the comic.
Marten actually comes out and says what he's feeling for once and it's supposedly flimsy, but when Marten says what any "Nice Guy" would say when given a situation, it's fact. That would be interesting to live in a world where no one white lies, ever.
So Dora breaks up with him, with hardly any emotion towards it, and now she needs to get help?
Wait WHAT?!, I must have missed this when I was reading it before. Man, that sure was a lot of tissues and crying for someone doing something with hardly any emotion.
Girls cry when they have to dump someone, it's not fun. Girls especially cry when someone bear hugs them and tell them they have to get help because something's not right with them. Faye, who didn't want to be with Marten, is telling Dora she's crazy for not wanting to be with Marten. What?
Has Dora ever dated an ambitious person or have they all been hipster townies? Maybe Dora should try dating someone different before she's deemed crazy and needs help? Maybe a guy that is nice to you isn't always enough in a relationship?
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Marten actually comes out and says what he's feeling for once and it's supposedly flimsy, but when Marten says what any "Nice Guy" would say when given a situation, it's fact. That would be interesting to live in a world where no one white lies, ever.
Must be an interesting world where everyone is lying to themselves and everyone else all the time unless they are drunk.
Seriously, in order for your theory to make sense, Marten has to be lying almost every time he opens his mouth. Dora has to be lying about the whole reason things went south, to EVERYONE, including herself considering she did go to therapy over it.
I get it, you don't like Marten. Good for you. But seriously, you are practically making shit up with no support in the comic outside of one very dumb comment that Marten made while emotionally destroyed and so drunk he blacked it out, that could very easily have a dozen other reasons for coming out of his mouth other than "This is what I'm really feeling all the time." Honestly, my take on it is that he was projecting exactly what Dora said she feared, because that seemed to be exactly what she expected. It seemed like spite at Dora. Is this absolutely what happened and what he was thinking? I don't know. But its just as supported as your theory on that one comment.
And outside that one comic, nothing supports your argument that she dumped him because he was unambitious and not good enough for her. At least, nothing I can remember or find. I invite you to find support for this from the characters themselves. If you can I'll reassess, until then, I don't see the point of me continuing this discussion.
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Seriously, in order for your theory to make sense, Marten has to be lying almost every time he opens his mouth. Dora has to be lying about the whole reason things went south, to EVERYONE, including herself considering she did go to therapy over it.
Could be a repressed emotion, but the fact is he would have rather been with Faye.
Dora tried to get over it and couldn't. She went to therapy because Faye said she would beat her up and because she convinced her that something was horribly wrong with her.
I get it, you don't like Marten. Good for you. But seriously, you are practically making shit up with no support in the comic outside of one very dumb comment that Marten made while emotionally destroyed and so drunk he blacked it out, that could very easily have a dozen other reasons for coming out of his mouth other than "This is what I'm really feeling all the time." Honestly, my take on it is that he was projecting exactly what Dora said she feared, because that seemed to be exactly what she expected. It seemed like spite at Dora. Is this absolutely what happened and what he was thinking? I don't know. But its just as supported as your theory on that one comment.
Marten is nice, which is great, but he doesn't add anything to a relationship. I don't see someone like Dora being happy with him. She clearly wasn't.
And outside that one comic, nothing supports your argument that she dumped him because he was unambitious and not good enough for her. At least, nothing I can remember or find. I invite you to find support for this from the characters themselves. If you can I'll reassess, until then, I don't see the point of me continuing this discussion.
It's more about Faye of course, but if Marten was worth keeping she would have. This wasn't the point anyway, the point is that Dora does not have horrible issues for not being happy with Marten or one of Sven's loser friends. If you honestly think she needs therapy, then like I've said before, just about everyone on Earth needs therapy.
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I do hope she eventually dates Jim... : )
I think Jim is a nice guy, successful himself. The only potential red flag is if the ex wife shows up, but hopefully that won't happen. : )
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I also need to point out: LOOK AT THE THINGS HE SAYS during that drunken thing. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1818
"Paving the way for other dudes" "Gettin' you over your bullshit" etc etc. He is showing the baggage that he has over the fact that Faye wouldn't be with him. He is still upset over the fact that he couldn't be with Faye. He is, in effect, saying the things he would say to Faye if he had the courage to. And quite honestly, Faye deserves it! I only wish he could have said it sober. What she did to him was HORRIBLE!
It is not merely a drunken rampage. The things he is saying show that he's not 100 percent over Faye. Dora was absolutely right to end it. If Marten can't get over this, how could he be with Dora?
I hate revisiting that, because it reminds me why I hate Faye so much, but I had to prove a point here.
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I also need to point out: LOOK AT THE THINGS HE SAYS during that drunken thing. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1818
"Paving the way for other dudes" "Gettin' you over your bullshit" etc etc. He is showing the baggage that he has over the fact that Faye wouldn't be with him. He is still upset over the fact that he couldn't be with Faye. He is, in effect, saying the things he would say to Faye if he had the courage to. And quite honestly, Faye deserves it! I only wish he could have said it sober. What she did to him was HORRIBLE!
It is not merely a drunken rampage. The things he is saying show that he's not 100 percent over Faye. Dora was absolutely right to end it. If Marten can't get over this, how could he be with Dora?
I hate revisiting that, because it reminds me why I hate Faye so much, but I had to prove a point here.
Marten said himself that he has some feelings for Faye (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1066), but as he also says, that doesn't mean he wanted to leave Dora for her. Yes, Marten might've still had affection for Faye; you can't just turn feelings off, but the thing is, he gave Dora a chance, and he did fall in love with her. As the comic progressed, Marten's feelings for Dora got stronger and he got over Faye. And keep in mind, Marten gave no indication while he was dating Dora that he was dissatisfied with their relationship, and he was never distant or unresponsive to Dora.
Some people don't seem to understand that no, alcohol isn't necessarily truth serum. It greatly, greatly exaggerates feelings that are normally not that strong, or, and I think this is the case with Marten, feelings he used to have; they came out when he was drunk because DORA brought them out. If you didn't notice, Dora is the one who is living in the past where Marten is pining away for Faye when he'd long progressed past that point.
If Marten really wasn't over Faye, he would be having the angry rants while he was sober, not drunk. And he certainly would've had a MUCH bigger problem when Faye slept with Sven.
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Also, I don't know if you've ever been drunk and depressed, but what you DON'T want is someone to come in and try to play mommy with you. You know the best way to get them to leave you the hell alone? Piss them off or upset them. What he said, was the perfect thing to say to hit her buttons. That is some guilt tripping accusations there.
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In veno veritas. I think there is some truth to that. I wouldn't say alcohol is a perfect truth serum, but I think you may well admit things when drunk you wouldn't admit when your sober. Sort of a trip to your subconscious.
It was pretty obvious to me Dora has some issues that need working out. I'd guess low self-esteem is probably the over-riding one, based on my experiences.
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Ok, I jumped into posting midway through reading to say, some of you may have seen my post in the relationship advice thread a couple months ago. So I know some may have a idea of where I'm coming from on this.
This is coming from someone who has had a severely bad string of relationships. I've been mentally abused, cheated on, lied too, used for money, etc. I am now in a healthy stable relationship, but I put this guy through HELL over the past couple years with my insecurities from my previous relationships. I finally grew a pair and took action, I sought out help. I went through anger management and such. Even though it's been 5 months since then, I have made an improvement. I'm working on this in a relationship yes, but I have a very loving and supportive boyfriend.
After having gone through those situations in my past, my self-esteem was nothing. I acted like I had confidence, but it was exactly what I said, an act. Deep down I felt unwanted, I was paranoid of even family, I was depressed, I even had thoughts of suicide back then. When someone is torn to shreds like I was, or how Dora was in her past, sometimes we do need help in overcoming those obstacles.
I can say I dislike Dora, but in the relationship aspect only, I dislike her because I see myself. And I really hate to come off as one of those creepy obsessed fans, but the break up arc really made me do some extreme self reflection. I knew ultimately, I did not want to take the same route as Dora and Marten. I honestly really did relate to that because at that point, my relationship was heading right down the same exact road.
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If Marten really wasn't over Faye, he would be having the angry rants while he was sober, not drunk. And he certainly would've had a MUCH bigger problem when Faye slept with Sven.
No, because Marten's not like that. He holds stuff in a lot.
Whatever...there are two sides to this and I'm obviously on the side that says that Marten never really got over Faye.
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I can def relate to Marten's speech. I've been through several fizzle out relationships were really all I did was make the guy see how much he missed the girl, or the girl see how much she really loved the guy and they got back together.
It hurts to do everything right and still loose.
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I can agree that Marten has some unresolved feelings for Faye. He'd never act on them, and "Africa" pretty much torpedoed everything from Faye's side.
Dora had issues stemming from this, but they were her issues, related to her insecurities. The breakup was probably inevitable (there, I said it).
But that doesn't mean that Dora doesn't need help getting past her problems. They are real, and they are sabotaging her happiness, and yes, by Frued's definition (one of the few things he did that's still valid), she is not mentally healthy.
Should she date Jim? No, but that's more because of the business/work thing than the fact that he may (or may not) be good for her. We don't know him well enough yet, but I know how a business can be ruined by a relationship going south, and that's something neither Jim nor Dora can really afford.
Of course, what would this comic be without a little drama?
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This thread makes me contemplate all the varied meanings of the phrase "bag of hammers."
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I don't see someone like Dora being happy with him. She clearly wasn't.
To be truly happy with someone, it is necessary to be properly happy with yourself; this is where therapy can help Dora.
Now, when I asked you what made you so certain about things, my intention was to remind you that there are 7 billion people in the world, and rather a lot of them don't think the same as you. This isn't exactly a matter of right and wrong, but to point out that one size or viewpoint doesn't fit all; also that even on this forum there are people who appear to have considerably more experience in these matters than you.
I would also point out the limitations of ignoring authorial intention in a comic like this. It is possible to analyse a book in new ways, and come to conclusions about its characters that are at variance with the author's own views on the matter - indeed, this is rather fashionable these days - but in the case of a serial comic, you have to accept that the next day the author will come back and continue the story according to his own view. This is not to deny that the characters in the author's own head can surprise him when he is writing, which Jeph says happens to him, but it does mean that the scope for forcing your own view of the world onto his characters is really quite limited. So I offer Jeph's own view (from the discussion of Marten's drunken faux-pas):
Marten and Faye are best friends. They know each other incredibly well. There is no way Faye, at the point where she is right now, would EVER think Marten's actions were anything more than drunken idiocy.
Also a reminder of his views on this kind of discussion (from the same day):
For what it's worth, I don't care if people overanalyze things. I mean, I think it's stupid, and they're wrong 99% of the time, but that's kind of what forums are FOR. It's the stupid arguing, [...] and the "I [...] will drag this into every single discussion" idiocy that I have a problem with.
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Marten made Dora happy. She said so, in so many words, in strip 1005.
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If Marten really wasn't over Faye, he would be having the angry rants while he was sober, not drunk. And he certainly would've had a MUCH bigger problem when Faye slept with Sven.
No, because Marten's not like that. He holds stuff in a lot.
Whatever...there are two sides to this and I'm obviously on the side that says that Marten never really got over Faye.
Let me rephrase that: If Marten really wasn't over Faye, he would have been quietly lashing out at Dora in passive-aggressive ways during their relationship, a road Marten actively tried to steer them away from. (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1326)
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If Marten really wasn't over Faye, he would be having the angry rants while he was sober, not drunk. And he certainly would've had a MUCH bigger problem when Faye slept with Sven.
No, because Marten's not like that. He holds stuff in a lot.
Whatever...there are two sides to this and I'm obviously on the side that says that Marten never really got over Faye.
Let me rephrase that: If Marten really wasn't over Faye, he would have been quietly lashing out at Dora in passive-aggressive ways during their relationship, a road Marten actively tried to steer them away from. (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1326)
People can be not over someone but just bury those thoughts and make the best of their current situation because they want to move on. But then, little instances of "I like the other girl better" come up, like when Marten asked them both about Toto.
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Ah, yes, the Toto compatibility test.
Angus asked Faye. Result: positive
Faye asked Marten (not the other way around). Result: we could get along.
Marten asked Dora. Result: F..k off.
Y'knoe, I can never wrap my head around the scansion in that song.
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I actually was a little disappointed when Dora told Marten that Toto sucked and to let her go back to sleep. Strangely, I like the song "Africa" best too...but I am aware that some people would just say "Fuck off, Toto sucks."
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I feel like people are trying to use Marten's ACTUAL feelings for Faye to determine whether or not Dora's crazy paranoid. But the fact that it's debatable surely means that a completely mentally healthy person might feel insecure in that situation?
This is 100% me projecting onto the characters, but just to give another idea:
In an emotional sense, I would consider Faye an "ex". When he and Dora started dating, they both TOLD her nothing would happen, but I don't think we ever saw Marten take action to show Dora he meant it. Not that someone should constantly try to prove their love, but, like, moving out of the apartment if it was possible or something. His passive personality may have indicated to her that he doesn't take control of his life and so might just 'let something happen'. Even if they never acted on it, I wouldn't stay in a situation where I had a nagging anxiety about being second best. Sometimes healthy people get those.
Also, in the break-up comic which has been linked to, she says she's not going to get over that feeling, not that the feeling is completely unfounded. I think almost anyone could benefit from a visit to a therapist, but I disagree with Marten being THE ONLY GOOD THING EVER AND SHE HAD TO RUIN IT. Her coffeeshop is great for her and so are her friendships (unless someone can link to when she tries to sabotage a friendship?). It's quite possible that he really did rub her the wrong way, and maybe her issues didn't exactly help.
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Another comic where Marten is, of clear non-drunk mind this time, speaking to himself so has no reason to lie about his feelings: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1891
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Another comic where Marten is, of clear non-drunk mind this time, speaking to himself so has no reason to lie about his feelings: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1891
Man, did I wait for someone to link that comic while reading this discussion. It really makes it clear what Marten feels about Faye.
</sidetrack>
As for Dora needing therapy - we don't really know just how bad her previous relationships were, we just have some hints that they were really, really bad. And we know that that gives her trust issues. Is this a problem? Yes it is, considering she didn't make much progress despite being well aware it threatened her relationship with Marten, which in itself was helpful for her - she did make some progress. Okay, she's got a problem. Does she need a therapist? Yes she does, but does that mean everyone in the same situation would? No.
Someone, like myself for example, could be able to work through it with help from family or close friends. But that needs a lot of effort from both parties. And when the problem involves very close people, that needs an unusual amount of trust and discretion. I happen to have such relations with my father and one of my two brothers.
In Dora's case, Faye and Sven are both too closely involved in the problem, Raven doesn't seem close enough to her and her parents doesn't seem sensible enough. She needs an outside voice, and one educated in the matters doesn't exactly hurt.
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Thank you for linking to that! That further proves the point that Marten still feels something, that Faye is an emotional "ex."
Actually, before I knew the backstory and just read that comic, I thought Marten and Faye were actual exes!
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Yes, Marten literally says that Dora is Plan B. He likes Plan B...but she's Plan B. Would you be ok with being Plan B?
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To be fair, he never says "plan B". Faye is A because A happened first. Dora is B because B happened second. I don't see anything else in that statement.
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Thank you for linking to that! That further proves the point that Marten still feels something, that Faye is an emotional "ex."
Actually, before I knew the backstory and just read that comic, I thought Marten and Faye were actual exes!
Well, it proves that he feels something, but more importantly it proves that this something is not a problem, as you suggest. I don't think any human could be feeling "nothing" about anyone they've had any kind of relationship with. That is not human.
Yes, Marten literally says that Dora is Plan B. He likes Plan B...but she's Plan B. Would you be ok with being Plan B?
Plans aren't stationary. Dora soon became plan A. They were attracted to each other long before they hooked up, Marten only waited for Faye to open up about her feelings first. He has always cared about others feelings first. Additionally, he doesn't really make plans, does he?
Have you read all the way from the beginning? Faye and Dora popped up in Marten's life in the same week, and that is more than two years back. The relationship between Marten and Dora lasted roughly twice as long as the non-relationship between Faye and Marten.
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Plans aren't stationary. Dora soon became plan A. They were attracted to each other long before they hooked up, Marten only waited for Faye to open up about her feelings first. He has always cared about others feelings first. Additionally, he doesn't really make plans, does he?
Plan B does not become Plan A because Plan A failed. It's still Plan B. At that moment, Dora was second best. Yes, he ended up loving Dora (somewhat debatable, he made hardly any effort to try and get her back, and he moved out here chasing a girl so you know he's capable of doing so) but it doesn't change the fact that Dora was with Marten only because Faye said no.
Have you read all the way from the beginning? Faye and Dora popped up in Marten's life in the same week, and that is more than two years back. The relationship between Marten and Dora lasted roughly twice as long as the non-relationship between Faye and Marten.
Marten has liked Faye since comic 6. 6!
Another comic where Marten is, of clear non-drunk mind this time, speaking to himself so has no reason to lie about his feelings: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1891 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1891)
If he's fine with it, why would he need to monologue about it out loud? I would agree that at this point he's not worrying about it too much as he's very interested in Padma. Doesn't mean he won't wish he was wish Faye sometime in the future.
<mod: fixed quote bracket for easier reading>
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"A" and "B" are not necessarily judgemental; they are simply two alternatives, and the fact that one came before the other has no effect on their value. You are insisting on interpreting one part of the text to suit your desired outcome, even though that directly contradicts another part of the same text; but however hard you try, that does not make it so.
I don't care if people overanalyze things. I mean, I think it's stupid, and they're wrong 99% of the time, but that's kind of what forums are FOR.
It may be what the forums are for, in the sense that he can't stop people doing it; but please try to be sensible. I wouldn't want you or other people to get worked up about it, would I, because that's when bad things start to happen - and then I might have to get decisive, like Marten in that same strip!
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OK, finally found it, thanks to jwhouk's strip database. 1357 is the strip in which Dora thinks about engaging therapy.
Dora's a great girl, but I can't just switch my affection from one person to another like that. I need to see this Faye thing through to the end, whatever that end turns out to be.
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I wouldn't want you or other people to get worked up about it, would I, because that's when bad things start to happen - and then I might have to get decisive, like Marten in that same strip!
You wouldn't like him when he's... decisive :mrgreen: (Okay okay, that doesn't really look like the Hulk)
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If Marten really wasn't over Faye, he would be having the angry rants while he was sober, not drunk. And he certainly would've had a MUCH bigger problem when Faye slept with Sven.
No, because Marten's not like that. He holds stuff in a lot.
Whatever...there are two sides to this and I'm obviously on the side that says that Marten never really got over Faye.
Let me rephrase that: If Marten really wasn't over Faye, he would have been quietly lashing out at Dora in passive-aggressive ways during their relationship, a road Marten actively tried to steer them away from. (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1326)
People can be not over someone but just bury those thoughts and make the best of their current situation because they want to move on. But then, little instances of "I like the other girl better" come up, like when Marten asked them both about Toto.
Are you even reading the same strip? Faye asked Marten about Toto, not the other way around. Marten only asked Dora about it.
Yes, Marten literally says that Dora is Plan B. He likes Plan B...but she's Plan B. Would you be ok with being Plan B?
Well as has been mentioned, Marten never said referred to them as "plans," he was just using the letters as differentiators. But if you want to get technical, Dora's more like F and Faye is E. I hope you people aren't as picky as soutflies (or Dora) is about being "B," but that's kinda something you have to deal with when you date anyone who has dated someone else before you. Most people have more than one romantic relationship in their lives; getting pissy about not being first is kinda immature. Marten had at least four other girlfriends before Faye or Dora came along; saying it's wrong for Marten to go for Dora after getting rejected by Faye would be like saying a guy can't date anyone after his first girlfriend.
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If I may make some points here from my own perspective on the comic/topic.
1) Dora has had several freakouts over things that Marten has done, there was her little rampage when he got his hair cut and didn't consult her on it. There was the time when Cossette flirted with him back before we knew her name, Dora found out about it because she mentioned it, and then Dora decided to lay a trap for Marten (this one might be iffy for some people admittedly). Marten wouldn't have cheated on her, hadn't and in fact was often very nice to her and tried to do things to make her happy. The big problems I had with her involved the hug incident and later on what led to the breakup.
2) Dora had realized that she had behaved irrationally when she looked at what occurred, in some cases even a few minutes afterwards and kept mentioning that she needed to get it dealt with and yet never did. She made sure that Faye went to see her therapist (which was a good thing) but pretty much had to be physically threatened by Faye to do it. Doras issues weren't as large as Fayes but they were still there, she was paranoid and didn't trust those around her. She also tended to jump to conclusions and ignored other peoples boundaries.
3) In vino veritas is essentially a lie flavored with truth. Alcohol makes you less inhibited, so yes you might not use your mental filter as much as you would normally and will instead just say what comes to mind. However, it also means that you aren't thinking about things as often and your thought process is rather clouded. Presumably if you think that a drunken person is totally truthful then when they sing atonally and often badly and say how great they sound their thoughts would be the same sober? Martens commentary was anger and bitterness, he had been dumped by Dora after she violated boundaries and got self righteous when he pointed out that her actions were unfair and rude. He was angry because he felt like he had been a nice guy and yet fate kept kicking him in the junk, he was angry because Dora chose her own insecurities over him, and Faye happened to be the target next to him and she was yelled at both for some of his own inner frustration with her, some of his anger at that time at the female half of the human race, and yeah there was probably some feeling for her still lingering but I don't think it exists the way it used to.
4) It's also worth noting here that Marten has had to put up with a lot more crap, much of it undeserved, than what Dora has had to deal with. When his mother came to visit she seemed to be there to rub salt in wounds along with adding a few fresh cuts. Steve just added more trouble to all of it, in fact Faye and Hannelore were among the only people really trying to help Marten and their help was sometimes mixed at times. Dora received a lot more support and help from those involved even though Faye was angry enough to clock her or at least yell until her throat gave out, so there is that factor too.
5) Just a comment on the A and B thing, if we're going to take that track then every person who isn't your first love should feel slighted?
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Does anyone remember the strip where Marten tells Dora he was helping sick Hanners, he put her on the sofa and she wasn't wearing a bra and he saw everything? She almost didn't care if I remember.
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Does anyone remember the strip where Marten tells Dora he was helping sick Hanners, he put her on the sofa and she wasn't wearing a bra and he saw everything? She almost didn't care if I remember.
Actually it was kind of adorable, she hugged him and said "At least I know I can trust you, if you cheated on me the guilt would make your head explode." or something to that extent.
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Marten And Hanners Boob. (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1314)
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That is the one confusing aspect ... Not Hanners's boob, but the unpredictability of Dora's mistrust. Cosette's flirt and the resulting broadsword and trap, The haircut. Innocent remarks by the other women in the cast taken as threats. The Underpants Incident. Contrast those with Dora's offering to let Marten "fall asleep in a pile of ladies," or telling an unsuspecting female customer (who is tired of being propositioned for a threesome in every coffeeshop in town ...) " my boyfriend thinks you're cute." The one consistency I can find is that Dora's OK with it, whatever it is, as long as it's her idea, and she's in control. It might be more subconscious than malicious -- she does on occasion display compassion and maybe empathy, particularly if she can assume the mother/older sister/superior role -- but the desire to be the one making the decision is there.
After all ( just to take this back to the obvious place) she didn't feel herself to be in control when Sven was coasting through both their childhoods.
Dang, I hope if Jeph ever draws Dora's therapist, he looks like me.
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You're hired.
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3) In vino veritas is essentially a lie flavored with truth. Alcohol makes you less inhibited, so yes you might not use your mental filter as much as you would normally and will instead just say what comes to mind. However, it also means that you aren't thinking about things as often and your thought process is rather clouded. Presumably if you think that a drunken person is totally truthful then when they sing atonally and often badly and say how great they sound their thoughts would be the same sober? Martens commentary was anger and bitterness, he had been dumped by Dora after she violated boundaries and got self righteous when he pointed out that her actions were unfair and rude. He was angry because he felt like he had been a nice guy and yet fate kept kicking him in the junk, he was angry because Dora chose her own insecurities over him, and Faye happened to be the target next to him and she was yelled at both for some of his own inner frustration with her, some of his anger at that time at the female half of the human race, and yeah there was probably some feeling for her still lingering but I don't think it exists the way it used to.
I've found that in vino veritas functions on a curve. To a point, maybe three or four shots depending on the person, the alcohol lowers your mental filters but leaves most of the rest of your mental faculties intact. Beyond that, like after the whole bottle of bourbon which is where Marten was, there's no rhyme or reason to your thoughts anymore. Marten propositioning Faye wasn't an indication of lingering feelings. It was a bitter man who was drunk beyond all sensibility saying, "Hey, I'll bang Faye and that'll teach that bitch Dora." Had Hanners walked in, it would have been, "Hey, I'll bang Hanners." Had Cosette walked in it would've been, "Hey, I'll bang Cosette." Remember, drink giveth the desire though it taketh away the ability.
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Due to the lack of significant definition regarding Dora's "bad relationships" I think it's damn near impossible to comment as to how therapy-worthy they are.
All we have is Sven's explaination, which in itself may be incomplete, and Doras own reference which she may be holding back still, especially if things where particularly bad.
From the information given, well it depends a lot on the person, but I wouldn't have thought it would result in therapy.
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BlackJoker essentially said what I was thinking, but I do have one thing to throw out: It is interesting that her first session with her therapist consisted of about 48 minutes talking about her brother. That means something, I'd reckon.
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It means her issues/insecurities probably go waaaaaay back beyond her dating career to her upbringing.
So they're pretty deep seated.
So she's going to need some help with them, since they affect her life. And that help can't come from people who are close, because so many of the people close to her are at the root of the problem.
...and that's why she needs therapy.
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That's correct, I'm surprised the creator of this thread doesn't seem to remember the brother-issues and need-to-controll-everything-issues.
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That's correct, I'm surprised the creator of this thread doesn't seem to remember the brother-issues and need-to-controll-everything-issues.
And why can't Dora be controlling? That's her personality, maybe she needs an ambitious guy who is constantly showing her how much he loves her. Yes, let's use therapy to mold Dora into what we have defined as normal.
Why aren't people grabbing Hanners and saying "Not wanting to kiss people is wrong and it's ruining your life. You need help."? Why dont we get Marten some therapy for his lack of effort in achieving anything in his life? Marigold for being a computer-playing shut in?
Dora is one of the most successful people in this strip. Hell, half the QC cast works for her. She's going to fine, she just needs to stop dating guys who aren't doing anything with their lives.
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And why can't Dora be controlling? That's her personality, maybe she needs an ambitious guy who is constantly showing her how much he loves her. Yes, let's use therapy to mold Dora into what we have defined as normal.
Except that when people are controlling, it isn’t their life they're controlling, its someone else's and are you honestly saying thats right?
Why aren't people grabbing Hanners and saying "Not wanting to kiss people is wrong and it's ruining your life. You need help."? Why dont we get Marten some therapy for his lack of effort in achieving anything in his life? Marigold for being a computer-playing shut in?
But Hanners knows that her OCD is controlling her life and is actively seeking help via therapy. Her getting a job at C.o.D. was more about trying to function as a person in a chaotic environment than it was about earning a wage. Marten is functioning though. He has a job which is able to provide a roof over his head, that keeps him fed. He has friends who care for him, as well as that he has an emotional outlet through music, now granted we haven’t seen anything from the band, but he still has his guitar. Of the cast Marten seems to be the most emotionally stable person. Marigold has gotten out of her shell a little bit, has tried to make friends, hell, she even made a move for Angus before being rebuked. But in Marigold’s case, she has been verbally kicked and beaten for most of her life. Even Hanners can see Marigold does need help and has tried to become her friend, gradually drawing her away from the computer.
Dora is one of the most successful people in this strip. Hell, half the QC cast works for her. She's going to fine, she just needs to stop dating guys who aren't doing anything with their lives.
Dora is also one of the most erratic people in the comic. She’s had a string of abusive relationships before Marten and her self belief that he’d turn out to be like one of her abusive exes, despite all evidence to the contrary, caused her to sabotage her relationship with him. She was possessive of him, aggressive to other women who took some interest in him, while all the while would continue to flirt with his boss while Marten had to keep his eyes front and centre. “Its one rule for you, another rule for me”.
Reading your responses stoutfiles, I’d have to say you have no idea of how therapy works. In fact I’d go as far to say that you believe it to be a pseudoscience. Its also an attitude that does nothing except stigmatise those who suffer from mental illness, and that is something that Dora does suffer from. She’s suffered from years of being second best to her brother, years of abuse from boyfriends past. That takes its toll on the mind, and it does do damage to people. That alone should be reason enough for Dora to at least talk to someone.
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I'd say the most (maybe only) important reason why she could need therapy is that she doesn't want to be that way. Question might be why she doesn't want to be like that anymore, but I doubt it's just because society/other people/friends would generally find her behaviour unfitting. She might just want to stop annoying people she likes for basically no reason.
Also her behaviour is inconsistent, she's exploding over things which had been perfectly fine on a different occasion, so you couldn't even say what/how some of her personality traits really are.
She's still my favourite character.
But "therapy" has different connotations in different countries and languages. Here, therapy is generally seen as a really freaking big thing for really crapped up people. It's also quite hard to get, making it even more ..."special".
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Where is "here"? It's not in your profile.
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Just clearing something up in my mind ... Am I right in assuming the kind of therapy most people in this forum are talking about (and the kind Jeph depicts) is designed, not to force a person into a socially acceptable "mold" but to help said person get a handle on him/herself so said person can work around or with whatever's in the way?
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Was going to answer back to stoutfiles lines... But TheEvilDog wrote pretty much all the stuff I wanted to write about as well.
Why can't control people? You are really asking that? Please...
You really think her only problems are "guys who aren't doing anything with their lives"?. You don't even know the boyfriends she had and you are making things up to back up your theories. Most of her boyfriends were "alpha goths" so they clearly weren't any kind of passive dudes, they treated her like crap and you are not even thinking about her huge issues of insecurity because of always being the secong in everything with his brother.
The very first thing she talked about in her first therapy had nothing to do with boyfriends... just her brother.
Like dragontart said... Her lack of consistensy is quite extreme at times.
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Am I right in assuming the kind of therapy most people in this forum are talking about (and the kind Jeph depicts) is designed, not to force a person into a socially acceptable "mold" but to help said person get a handle on him/herself so said person can work around or with whatever's in the way?
Certainly that's what I mean; it's also called Counselling, in the UK, at least.
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Of the cast Marten seems to be the most emotionally stable person.
I would actually say Angus is the most emotionally stable... but Marten is up there too... EVERYTHING ELSE IN YOUR POST WAS EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED TO SAY THOUGH :P.
(nitpick,nitpick,nitpick)
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Of the cast Marten seems to be the most emotionally stable person.
I would actually say Angus is the most emotionally stable... but Marten is up there too... EVERYTHING ELSE IN YOUR POST WAS EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED TO SAY THOUGH :P.
(nitpick,nitpick,nitpick)
Rather then derail this topic from Dora, I'll send a PM.
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I've TRIED to get over it, but I just can't.
If she can't get over something on her own despite having tried then it's time for her to escalate.
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Where is "here"? It's not in your profile.
Germany. What you know as counsel(l)ing basically doesn't exist here, it's sometimes offered by social workers or independent "freelance" psychologists (medics of any kind are usually paid and regulated by our health insurances) and it doesn't count as medical treatment.
"Therapy" mostly includes mental homes, too many psychotropic drugs and people never again taking you serious.
And while the latter is not what Dora is aiming for, the idea of "psychological treatment" might leave a certain negative impression to some. Just thought I could mention it, in case that's part of stoutfiles' irritation about Dora needing/wanting therapy.
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Oh, wow, that is sad. Freud, Jung and Adler are probably rolling in their graves to hear that counseling doesn't exist in their native land/lands.
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Like Dragontart in Germany, you won't find many therapists or the such here, in fact you'd most likely only find one through a GP's referral. That said, when I was in secondary school my class teacher was the school's religion teacher, who was also a trained psychologist and who had a practise up in the North. According to him, the job of any therapist is to just listen to someone, to hear their problems and to offer a new, impartial perspective to a person. Thats their main purpose, to listen, its also the key to a good therapist.
Put it this way, if you have a bad tooth, you go to the dentist to have it removed or it gets infected. If you break your leg, you go to the hospital to have it fixed and placed in plaster or the bone or leg might not heal properly. If you have a problem or issues with trust, why shouldn't you talk to a trained professional about them? If you have a problem of trust that causes you to ruin a loving relationship, why shouldn't you talk about it with someone who wants to help you? Its the same principle.
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Put it this way, if you have a bad tooth, you go to the dentist to have it removed or it gets infected. If you break your leg, you go to the hospital to have it fixed and placed in plaster or the bone or leg might not heal properly. If you have a problem or issues with trust, why shouldn't you talk to a trained professional about them? If you have a problem of trust that causes you to ruin a loving relationship, why shouldn't you talk about it with someone who wants to help you? Its the same principle.
Exactly! Just like you wouldn't fix your tooth yourself because you don't really have a clue about it... Dora in the same situation, she doesn't know how to get over it.
I've TRIED to get over it, but I just can't.
This is the second time in a row I see a fluid and well thought post of yours... You got my respect sir!
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Hoping no one saw my earlier, angrier, oversharing rant: I have been to too many health workers and heard too many differing opinions, often with brazen insults, to believe that psychology is anything but a null field. Except where delusional disorders are concerned (and even there there are notorious problems with them giving patients delusions), they're nothing but cold readers, mirroring what you've already decided back to you, and if they can help you, they can help you, but we've gone ahead and given them prescription pads and a set of handcuffs. To be honest, I think this is the best argument for an end to all drug prohibition: society is so desperate for drugs, and some people truly do need them, that we've put them in the hands of glorified carnival workers, and given them de facto jails to justify it.
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Hoping no one saw my earlier, angrier, oversharing rant: I have been to too many health workers and heard too many differing opinions, often with brazen insults, to believe that psychology is anything but a null field. Except where delusional disorders are concerned (and even there there are notorious problems with them giving patients delusions), they're nothing but cold readers, mirroring what you've already decided back to you, and if they can help you, they can help you, but we've gone ahead and given them prescription pads and a set of handcuffs. To be honest, I think this is the best argument for an end to all drug prohibition: society is so desperate for drugs, and some people truly do need them, that we've put them in the hands of glorified carnival workers, and given them de facto jails to justify it.
Maybe its different where you from, but in the US a therapists is generally a PSYCHOLOGIST, not a PSYCHIATRIST. Meaning: they aren't medical doctors, they don't have prescription pads. Not only that LOL at people getting put in mental institutions for petty reasons like you seem to imply.
As for the rest of your post... how's it feel to be so superior to the rest of those idiots who believe in therapy and have benefited? I've never needed it myself, but I know way too many people who have gone to a GOOD therapist and come out the other side with their problems much more in control. Now, I agree there is probably too many shitty psychologists, but that doesn't equate to what they do not working when done well.
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This subject has offered a sharp reminder that in an international forum like this, misunderstandings can arise from entirely unsuspected causes - I guess we should all take it as a reminder to be careful in reacting to other people's remarks! In my case, even though some of my family live in Germany, I had no idea that the concept of therapy was so different there.
they're nothing but cold readers, mirroring what you've already decided back to you,
Yes, that happens; yes there are bad therapists; in the UK, at least, not so many or so bad as to be a major cause of concern, I would say. For my part I have only had good therapists (for a short time around my divorce). I also don't know, Near Lurker, where you are; but there is a not uncommon perception held here in the UK that therapy is turned to in the US with less justification than here (especially for children), and that as this requires more therapists, the standard might be lower. However, this is anecdotal, and I have no evidence either way on it.
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Hoping no one saw my earlier, angrier, oversharing rant: I have been to too many health workers and heard too many differing opinions, often with brazen insults, to believe that psychology is anything but a null field. Except where delusional disorders are concerned (and even there there are notorious problems with them giving patients delusions), they're nothing but cold readers, mirroring what you've already decided back to you, and if they can help you, they can help you, but we've gone ahead and given them prescription pads and a set of handcuffs. To be honest, I think this is the best argument for an end to all drug prohibition: society is so desperate for drugs, and some people truly do need them, that we've put them in the hands of glorified carnival workers, and given them de facto jails to justify it.
But you can say the same about any medical professional. The good ones will take the time to listen and to make the proper diagnosis. Then you have the doctors/nurses/surgeons/dentists who should have never been allowed to graduate, let alone practise their profession. How many people have died of a heart attack because their doctor missed the signs? Or what about the people who find out they have terminal cancer because the doctor didn't bother to order that vital x-ray? Lets not forget the people who have had surgery only for the surgeons to discover instruments left behind after a previous operation. For every bad therapist you guys might think of, there are just as many more "legitimate" medical professionals who are worse.
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And jwhouk (like myself) is American. We have a notoriously difficult time with geography...
IN all honesty, i thought Austria was still part of Germany until I checked! My apologies, Austrians - wherever you are! :laugh:
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I just read (did more research because of this here) that the American English word "Counseling" is now used in our pretty country for a totally brand new inventive [/irony] branch of mental help offers. Obviously we don't even have an own word for that. (When you translate "counseling" it usually doesn't mean something about psychological help.)
Also, according to the internets, more and more health insurances take over the costs for limited hours of psychotherapy if you can find a psychologist who offers such counseling, have a referral from [I can't find it again but my head is aching too much to find out] and you and your new therapist convince your insurance that you really need that therapy.
Anyways. Now you're up to date. Me too. Maybe I could give it a try again.
The bad image of psychological help because of said associations is correct, though. (Also it's often assumed that "mental/psychological" equals "imaginary" problem but that's a different story. Might be the reason for the shortage of psychologists.)
This was completely off topic but I didn't want to let it stand uncorrected.
Germany, Austria and Switzerland don't have much in common except the language and their geographical location. Guess they're better of that way, hum.
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I refuse to Godwin this thread. ;)
Seriously: Mr. Hodges does point out a problem with the cultural mores that everyone brings to the table when they read this strip.
In the US, when someone is having issues similar to what Faye was having over a relationship or relationships, it isn't unusual for them to try to find a licensed therapist with whom discuss their situation.
Most Americans, by the way, would understand the word "therapist" to equate to "psychiatrist", "psychologist", or "counselor". Bottom line is, they're people who are trained to listen and help people with behavioral issues - whether by therapy, medication, conditioning, training and/or just listening.
Faye, having benefited from such a situation, saw that Dora was having an issue with her relationship - mostly, how she ended it - she recommended that she seek out a therapist as well.
Yes, she had to coerce her, but Faye saw it as necessary (or, as those of us who are counselors* would say, "using tough love") to help her friend and boss.
We haven't seen or heard about many of Dora's sessions, compared to Faye's visits with Dr. Corrine. This may just be an oversight on Jeph's part, or it may be intentional; either she hasn't had any more sessions since the one we last heard about, or Jeph just decided not to put it into the strip.
Regardless of what or who or why she's in therapy, Dora's the only one who can determine that she's ready to get back into the dating scene. Time might be the only way to tell if she made the right choice by going out with Jim.
* - Yes, I am a counselor. Sometimes I don't do any of the stuff I listed, but sometimes I do. Deal.
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No proof that it's cause and effect, but the Pugnacious Peach is doing a lot better since she restarted therapy. Maybe it will be equally good for Dora.
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With regards to the now dead "truth serum" debate: Has anyone ever gotten really drunk and slept with someone they would never have slept with sober? Or lied when drunk to get sex? Or know of someone who has? Does that seem like the effects of a truth serum?
Oh, and most of the time, when you're talking about things that aren't of the conscious mind, the correct term is "unconscious", not "subconscious". It's just one my pet peeves.
From Wikipedia, the source of all our knowledge (ok, but it's referenced too)
"If someone talks of subconsciousness, I cannot tell whether he means the term topographically – to indicate something lying in the mind beneath consciousness – or qualitatively – to indicate another consciousness, a subterranean one, as it were. He is probably not clear about any of it. The only trustworthy antithesis is between conscious and unconscious."
Thus, as Charles Rycroft has explained, "subconscious" is a term "never used in psychoanalytic writings".[6] And, in Peter Gay's words, use of "subconscious" where "unconscious" is meant is "a common and telling mistake";[7] indeed, "when [the term] is employed to say something 'Freudian', it is proof that the writer has not read his Freud".[8]
Freud's own terms for mentation taking place outside conscious awareness were das Unbewusste (rendered by his translators as "the Unconscious") and das Vorbewusste ("the Preconscious"); informal use of the term "subconscious" in this context thus creates confusion, as it fails to make clear which (if either) is meant. The distinction is of significance because in Freud's formulation the Unconscious is "dynamically" unconscious, the Preconscious merely "descriptively" so: the contents of the Unconscious require special investigative techniques for their exploration, whereas something in the Preconscious is unrepressed and can be recalled to consciousness by the simple direction of attention. The erroneous, pseudo-Freudan use of "subconscious" and "subconsciousness" has its precise equivalent in German, where the words inappropriately employed are das Unterbewusste and das Unterbewusstsein.
Oh, and all the necessary jubilation of a first post and so on.
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I'm getting sick of this truth-serum debate. I don't see it as an either/or sort of issue. Each side of the debate has merit, and doesn't completely preclude the other side.
Marten was drunk, which involves lowered inhibitions, causing him to behave completely inappropriately around Faye, doing and saying things he would never have said otherwise. I don't see why this means that he absolutely was lying, or telling the truth.
Its hard to completely get over someone, and it seems completely plausible to me that Marten still is a bit bitter over the Faye situation. This doesn't mean that he only dated Dora as a "placeholder" or anything else. His relationship with Dora was wholehearted, to my reading of the strips. But with the breakup with Dora making Marten feel very bitter, he probably was reminded of another "failed" romantic relationship that he still felt some bitterness toward. This is speculation, but I don't think it's unreasonable to come to this conclusion.
What Marten said was a mix of truth, spite, lashing out, and exaggeration. He wanted to hurt Faye, he still harbored some hurt feelings over her not returning his romantic feelings, and he was just in a bad place mentally.
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Dora is one of the most successful people in this strip. Hell, half the QC cast works for her. She's going to fine, she just needs to stop dating guys who aren't doing anything with their lives.
Professional success isn't the only type of success. It is also not necessarily a sign of mental health, in some cases it's quite the opposite.
Dora is very good at running her business. I don't think she would be half as good if she were working under someone and not in control. But Dora was smart enough to choose a career strategy that played to her strengths.
This does not translate well to romantic relationships. If Dora wanted to have complete control over her romantic partner She would be in a very different (and much more kinky) relationship. Dora seems to want a stable relationship where she and her partner are roughly equals, true partners. But Dora's (possibly unconscious?) need to be in tight control of her environment prevents her from letting her romantic partner have the autonomy that they would in an equal relationship. This discrepancy between what Dora wants and what she creates is one of the reasons that she would benefit from seeing a therapist.
Dora is not good at reading herself/understanding her intentions. If she were she would be much more consistent in her emotional responses. Going to a therapist/counsellor/psychologist/whatever would give Dora a chance to sort out her emotions, intentions, and thought processes. Hopefully she will learn what triggers her freak outs, and learn how to step outside of herself and question the appropriateness of her reaction. Dora's core personality isn't likely to change from therapy, nor is her business success going to be altered.
Dora and Marten were by no means a perfect relationship. But I don't think the iceberg that sunk this ship was Marten's lack of Chatham business drive/strategy.
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Now that was a perceptive post.
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I view Marten's response as more adapting to the problem and coming to terms with it's existence. It's a bad idea when you can solve the problem- but it's not a bad way of dealing with problems you can't solve. And that's true whether the problem belongs to someone else (as with Dora's issues) or it's not solvable (Hanners).
If there's a definite flaw with the way Marten does things, it's that he tends to view all problems of an significance as out of his control and so adopts the 'bend in the wind' attitude when he could do something and be happier.
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Of the cast Marten seems to be the most emotionally stable person.
If by "emotionally stable," you mean, "most likely to try and smooth problems over, hoping they go away," then yes, I'd agree.
Emotionally stable as in if you look at what Marten has revealed about his own past history, you would think he should be one of the more messed up people in the cast. Parents divorced bitterly when he was 10, his father coming out as gay, which is what was presumably the cause of the divorce. Not to mention that his mother is one of the world's most famous dominitricies/burlesque models, and an overbearing one at that. Each night several members of her troupe would be at the house, both women and men, some of whom were in drag. He was bullied repeatedly in school, presumably because some people found out what his mother did for a living, or perhaps it was simply because he was a weedy kid. Not to mention Pintsize, who would have driven most people insane years ago. Compare him to the other cast members and barring Angus, Marten is the most even keeled person in the group.
Now, we could talk about Marten's sense of apathy, but thats a topic already being covering in the "Does Marten have goals?" topic, which I've posted my own ideas about there, as this topic is about Dora and her issues.
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Why does Dora need therapy? Because she is unhappy with herself, and doesn't know how to stop being unhappy with herself.
A therapist isn't magic - s/he cannot "fix" people. But what they can do is guide you along. You go in, tell them what's wrong, and what your plans are for fixing it, and the point out unhealthy or untrue thought patterns that are tripping you up. It gives you a place to say things that you don't want to tell other people, and you don't have to worry about damaging that relationship. This person is paid to listen to you blather about yourself and your problems.
I've been in and out of therapy for the past 10 or so years. Sometimes, it's quite helpful. Other times, not so much. It largely depended on the therapist, and how willing I was to accept their interpretations of me and my solutions. Some of them were idiots. But others have really helped me and pointed out where I am ignoring a real problem, or how I'm hurting myself. Dora could benefit from constructive criticism (couldn't we all?) about her behavior from someone she doesn't have to trust, like, or get along with. Coming from someone like Faye, Hannelore, or Marten (clearly not a good option anymore), it could come off as incredibly hurtful and judgmental. Raven, Penelope, Cosette, or other cast members don't know her well enough to do it in a way I think she'd believe. No one can win. She doesn't need therapy because of one failed relationship. She needs therapy because people have deeply hurt her, and she can't stop hurting people she cares about as a defense mechanism.
Therapy isn't for hopelessly-broken people only. It's a tool one uses when they feel there is a problem. It can be as simple as needing a sounding board, or as much as needing someone to hold your hand and walk you through your solutions. Maybe you need to be referred to get medication, maybe not. None of these tools have to be permanent fixtures in your life. You do what makes you feel better and get you to be better-functioning. When you feel it has run its course, you stop. If it doesn't work, you try something else. Therapy isn't an insult.
As for in vino veritas, I can't say I'm more truthful when I've been drinking. I'm about the same, but I tend to say more than I should, and make more solid declarations on feelings I really don't have that strongly. Sometimes these things are true, but they're often not. I could say them in better ways that are more accurate, or I'm reacting too strongly to a stimulus that normally wouldn't make me act that way.
Girls cry when they have to dump someone, it's not fun. Girls especially cry when someone bear hugs them and tell them they have to get help because something's not right with them. Faye, who didn't want to be with Marten, is telling Dora she's crazy for not wanting to be with Marten. What?
Has Dora ever dated an ambitious person or have they all been hipster townies? Maybe Dora should try dating someone different before she's deemed crazy and needs help? Maybe a guy that is nice to you isn't always enough in a relationship?
That's kinda sexist to make such a blanket statement about why girls cry. Some girls don't cry when they dump people or when they get bear-hugged/told they need help. Why do Dora's tears need to be linked to her sex?
Dora also said repeatedly how happy she was with Marten. She didn't break up with him because she didn't like him. She left the relationship because she couldn't stop thinking he didn't love her, no matter how much he told her that he did. I don't recall Dora once criticizing Marten's ambition or lack thereof (and I am not trolling archives to prove it for myself, but I am happy to be disproven here), so I don't see why an ambitious person would change anything, if Dora had the same reaction she did to Marten.
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She should stay away from a psychodynamic therapist though. I mean Freud had about three good ideas, those being the unconscious mind, ego defense mechanisms and talking cures, but a lot of the stuff he said was dogshit. The psychosexual stages of development, for example. And all dreams being wish-fulfillment. I think a cognitive therapist would be best.
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...you rang? :D
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Just clearing something up in my mind ... Am I right in assuming the kind of therapy most people in this forum are talking about (and the kind Jeph depicts) is designed, not to force a person into a socially acceptable "mold" but to help said person get a handle on him/herself so said person can work around or with whatever's in the way?
That would be my view as well, yes.
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Once again, Faye is trying to drag Dora down. Jim is now declared a creeper (Angus was the definition of creeper when he was introduced) and Dora needs to not date and get help. When did Faye become an expert on these things? I mean, her life is so great and on the fast track to success! So naturally she knows everything! It's as if she wants Dora to get help to feel better about herself needing help.
Good for your Dora. Jim is different from your manatee ex-boyfriend and fits you much better. Stop taking advice from all your troubled coworkers!
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The Pugnacious Peach has done this before. Remember her reaction when Wil asked Pennelope out?
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When did Faye become an expert on these things? I mean, her life is so great and on the fast track to success! So naturally she knows everything!
Come on. Faye just arrived to do her shift and learned about the date. It is just her gut reaction to such a piece of news. She has had zero time to reflect on this. She is not trying to advice to Dora or anything. If anything, it is back to the old Dora vs. Faye give-and-take sass that many of us remember so fondly from the earlier years, complete with Raven going off on a tangent (or something totally disconnected).
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I was looking for Faye's reaction to Wil asking out Penelope (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1239) (I thought for a minute you were talking about the Hemingway strip (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1186)), when I found how Dora's insecurities (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1217) affect her in relation to her business (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1220).
This has been public service archive binge.
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In this case Faye has a valid (if terribly articulated) point. Dora is not ready for a relationship right now.
Although, now that I reread the breakup section, Dora never admitted that she should work through her insecurities. Faye was the one who essentially forced her into therapy. But I do think that Dora needs to stick with the therapy, her insecurities and her inability to handle them do seem to affect her life in a way that she doesn't want.
I'm worried that if this date goes well then Dora will decide that she doesn't need therapy and stop going.
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Once again, Faye is trying to drag Dora down. Jim is now declared a creeper (Angus was the definition of creeper when he was introduced) and Dora needs to not date and get help. When did Faye become an expert on these things? I mean, her life is so great and on the fast track to success! So naturally she knows everything! It's as if she wants Dora to get help to feel better about herself needing help.
Good for your Dora. Jim is different from your manatee ex-boyfriend and fits you much better. Stop taking advice from all your troubled coworkers!
I take it from your view Dora can do no wrong?
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In this case Faye has a valid (if terribly articulated) point. Dora is not ready for a relationship right now.
Although, now that I reread the breakup section, Dora never admitted that she should work through her insecurities. Faye was the one who essentially forced her into therapy. But I do think that Dora needs to stick with the therapy, her insecurities and her inability to handle them do seem to affect her life in a way that she doesn't want.
I'm worried that if this date goes well then Dora will decide that she doesn't need therapy and stop going.
Well, I only found this (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1748), but I think it was stated in the aftermath of more of the fights even long before the breakup that she wanted to do something about it. She never succeeded though, she needs the help of therapist to do that. And therefore I am worrying about the exact same thing, and hoping her therapist (or Faye, or Marten, or someone) doesn't let that happen.
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When did Faye become an expert on these things? I mean, her life is so great and on the fast track to success! So naturally she knows everything!
Ever heard of learning from experience? Have you noticed that Faye's life has improved a lot? And the suggestion that she thinks she knows everything is your straw man, not hers.
Good for you Dora. Jim is different from your manatee ex-boyfriend and fits you much better.
And you will note that Dora appears to have turned round to blaming Marten (by implication) for the breakup - when she said the opposite at the time. Do you admire the ability to change like that?
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When did Dora ever regard Marten as perfect in every way?
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When contrasting Jim's approach with "stupid drama" Dora is obviously not comparing with herself, so she must be comparing with Marten - but the only drama that Marten ever indulged in was started by her, hence my saying "turned round". As for blaming - why else bring up the drama aspect at all? I don't think it's such a leap (particularly as I saw a very similar turn-around used the same way at the time of my divorce).
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And you will note that Dora appears to have turned round to blaming Marten (by implication) for the breakup - when she said the opposite at the time. Do you admire the ability to change like that?
I think it's a bit of a leap from "not regarding Marten as perfect in every way" to "blaming Marten by implication for the break-up".
To be fair I haven't seen her blaming him for it either, though if someone can show that position I may change my views.
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Well, directly from today's comic:
"No pussyfooting around the issue, no stupid drama. It's a refreshing change of pace."
Since, as she mentioned, her boyfriends before Marten were Alpha males and would have just asked her out, then the only person she could conceivably be complaining about in those terms is Marten. Who does not deserve the blame for the stupid drama she's bitching about. Either she has a really faulty memory of what happened with her and Marten, or she's addicted to self delusion.
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Once again, Faye is trying to drag Dora down. Jim is now declared a creeper (Angus was the definition of creeper when he was introduced) and Dora needs to not date and get help. When did Faye become an expert on these things? I mean, her life is so great and on the fast track to success! So naturally she knows everything! It's as if she wants Dora to get help to feel better about herself needing help.
Good for your Dora. Jim is different from your manatee ex-boyfriend and fits you much better. Stop taking advice from all your troubled coworkers!
I take it from your view Dora can do no wrong?
I think Faye should mind her own business. If Dora was letting this breakout affect other parts of her life, I would understand. But it's not. Dora has bounced back and she's doing fine, get off her back.
Faye has now mentioned therapy multiple times and is now the boss on who she can or can't date? Huh? Faye, you aren't Dora's mom...you're just her lackluster employee. How about you stay out of Dora's personal life and work on your own issues? You made your thoughts known, now it's just rude to keep telling Dora what she's allowed to do.
Dora can do plenty wrong and she has, but Faye is not the boss of her. Infact, it's literally the other way around.
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Yeah, Faye is just Dora's employee. It'd be crazy to suggest they were friends or anything, even living together at one point. Madness.
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Stoutfiles, instead of whining about Faye, why not provide proof of why Dora doesn't need therapy. Various people in this topic have provided ample evidence of why it might be beneficial for Dora to see a therapist, while you have provided none. Instead, you have provided opinions and some very generalised comments. As this is your topic, the onus is on you to show us why Dora should continue on her path, we've already done our part, perhaps its time you did yours.
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Stoutfiles, instead of whining about Faye, why not provide proof of why Dora doesn't need therapy. Various people in this topic have provided ample evidence of why it might be beneficial for Dora to see a therapist, while you have provided none. Instead, you have provided opinions and some very generalised comments. As this is your topic, the onus is on you to show us why Dora should continue on her path, we've already done our part, perhaps its time you did yours.
For the simple reason that it's Dora's life and she can live it how she chooses. She still goes to work, she doesn't alienate her friends, etc. She's not crying all day at work...she looks to be doing just fine given she just had a big breakup not too long ago. I can't say her problems are any worse than any of the QC cast; I could make a case that every single person in this strip needs therapy for something.
Therapy is a personal choice. Personal. How would you like it if your friends tried to push you into therapy after a breakup instead of just consoling you? I know you won't entertain this thought for me, but it would be rude.
I have nothing against therapy, provided the person going wants to go. It's beneficial, but it's not neccesarily needed. Are we saying that without therapy Dora will NEVER settle down with someone? Her dating Jim and ignoring Faye is ruining her life? No, I dont think so.
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So are you unable, or unwilling to provide support for you claims? All I have seen is your opinions, which is not nearly enough. We've provided comics as evidence for why Dora should at least talk to someone, while you've just twisted them, or in some cases, ignored them. So, I put to you, where is your evidence? Not opinions, but solid evidence.
I've seen nothing from you that supports anything you claim. Thats all I want.
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And you will note that Dora appears to have turned round to blaming Marten (by implication) for the breakup - when she said the opposite at the time. Do you admire the ability to change like that?
I think it's a bit of a leap from "not regarding Marten as perfect in every way" to "blaming Marten by implication for the break-up".
Yeah, it's a leap. She might actually be calling Faye out on how Angus practically needed a PhD in diplomacy just to approach Faye with the idea that he was attracted to her--also, you know, it could be possible that Dora's still working through some residual resentment about Faye leaving Marten on the hook for as long as she did. I like Faye, but there's been a lot of relationship drama around her. I'd say significantly more than any regular in the strip, with respect to both number of people she's had drama with, number of bystanders dragged into the drama, and length of time it took the drama to play out. I could see a friend, even one who loves her dearly, getting burned out on it, especially at the flip drop of the word "creepers."
BUT. If Dora is talking about Marten? Hey, look, that might be THE DIRECT IMPACT OF THERAPY. Dora is recognizing that her crazy wasn't the only problem between them, that Marten also played a role in the failure of their relationship. There might have been some basic compatibility issues. There might have been some problems between them that she was simply in denial about even after they first broke up. Not loving the passive-aggressive subtext of her delivery here, but if these are new ideas she's sorting through, she's probably not going to be real good at talking about them with people other than her therapist. Which probably means she should stick to talking about them with her therapist, for now.
Also remember that it's been quite some time since the breakup, and Marten's been doing a pretty good job at hiding from Dora (and my saying that does not exclude the possibility that Dora has also done some things to reduce the possibility of running into Marten--it's just that Marten is the one making major alterations to his daily routine.) I might be hitting a wall with teh drama implications of that, too, especially if I was nearly 30.
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For the simple reason that it's Dora's life and she can live it how she chooses. She still goes to work, she doesn't alienate her friends, etc. She's not crying all day at work...she looks to be doing just fine given she just had a big breakup not too long ago. I can't say her problems are any worse than any of the QC cast; I could make a case that every single person in this strip needs therapy for something.
Therapy is a personal choice. Personal. How would you like it if your friends tried to push you into therapy after a breakup instead of just consoling you? I know you won't entertain this thought for me, but it would be rude.
I have nothing against therapy, provided the person going wants to go. It's beneficial, but it's not neccesarily needed. Are we saying that without therapy Dora will NEVER settle down with someone? Her dating Jim and ignoring Faye is ruining her life? No, I dont think so.
Just as it is Dora's choice, it is also the other's right to question her choices. Part of the reason therapy looks like a good suggestion for Dora is that there is an outside accountability. You have regular meetings with someone who helps you examine how you've been handling life and whether it is bringing about the results you desire. Think of it in terms of education, you could decide to study a subject on your own, in your own time, planning to master it within four months, but most people don't have the self discipline to follow through on that. So people go to school, where a mentor guides them through the subject, keeping them on task and encouraging them to make progress towards their goal.
If Dora could find a way to work through her issues on her own that would also be fine, but she can't, or should I say she hasn't. Part of it is being lazy and part of it is that most people are resistant to the idea that they could be at fault. The Dora-Marten ship sinking wasn't entirely Dora's fault, but many of the big fights were started by her.
Just because Dora's life hasn't fallen to shit in every aspect possible doesn't mean that Dora's life is fine. It has been established in the comic that the part of Dora's life where she has problems is in her ability to have healthy romantic relationships. SHE has acknowledged that this is a problem for her.
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For the simple reason that it's Dora's life and she can live it how she chooses. She still goes to work, she doesn't alienate her friends, etc. She's not crying all day at work...she looks to be doing just fine given she just had a big breakup not too long ago. I can't say her problems are any worse than any of the QC cast; I could make a case that every single person in this strip needs therapy for something.
Therapy is a personal choice. Personal. How would you like it if your friends tried to push you into therapy after a breakup instead of just consoling you? I know you won't entertain this thought for me, but it would be rude.
I have nothing against therapy, provided the person going wants to go. It's beneficial, but it's not neccesarily needed. Are we saying that without therapy Dora will NEVER settle down with someone? Her dating Jim and ignoring Faye is ruining her life? No, I dont think so.
Just as it is Dora's choice, it is also the other's right to question her choices. Part of the reason therapy looks like a good suggestion for Dora is that there is an outside accountability. You have regular meetings with someone who helps you examine how you've been handling life and whether it is bringing about the results you desire. Think of it in terms of education, you could decide to study a subject on your own, in your own time, planning to master it within four months, but most people don't have the self discipline to follow through on that. So people go to school, where a mentor guides them through the subject, keeping them on task and encouraging them to make progress towards their goal.
If Dora could find a way to work through her issues on her own that would also be fine, but she can't, or should I say she hasn't. Part of it is being lazy and part of it is that most people are resistant to the idea that they could be at fault. The Dora-Marten ship sinking wasn't entirely Dora's fault, but many of the big fights were started by her.
Just because Dora's life hasn't fallen to shit in every aspect possible doesn't mean that Dora's life is fine. It has been established in the comic that the part of Dora's life where she has problems is in her ability to have healthy romantic relationships. SHE has acknowledged that this is a problem for her.
It's a little hard to fault Dora moving into the "the breakup was also somewhat Marten's fault" camp when Marten's own mother showed up to offer her condolences over the relationship not working out.
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It's a little hard to fault Dora moving into the "the breakup was also somewhat Marten's fault" camp when Marten's own mother showed up to offer her condolences over the relationship not working out.
While during the same visit Veronica admits she would seduce Sven under different circumstances (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1831), goes to see Dora behind Marten's back (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1832) and earlier humiliates Marten in front of a complete stranger (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1821), so I think Veronica's judgement for most of that visit was seriously in doubt.
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So are you unable, or unwilling to provide support for you claims? All I have seen is your opinions, which is not nearly enough. We've provided comics as evidence for why Dora should at least talk to someone, while you've just twisted them, or in some cases, ignored them. So, I put to you, where is your evidence? Not opinions, but solid evidence.
I've seen nothing from you that supports anything you claim. Thats all I want.
That would be every comic where she and Marten fought and/or disagreed. Im not going through the strip history to find them. The relationship wasn't perfect to begin with, Dora didn't sink it all by herself.
Even though this is what you consider a opinion, some people would not want to date someone who had feelings for their friend first. I don't declare that therapy worthy, and Svens friends were likely douchebags. I'd like to see one relationship with a good, somewhat successful guy on a clean slate. If that fails then maybe somethings wrong, but I currently think she's just made bad relationship choices.
As for Dora wanting Faye to mind her own business, today's comic is plenty evidence. It was ok at first for Faye to care, but now it's just rude telling her she can't live her life.
If you choose to believe she's so troubled that therapy is the only answer, then ok. We can agree to disagree. I guess Jeph will prove one of us wrong soon enough.
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I'm not one to say one party's exclusively a saint and the other exclusively a sinner in the M/D shipwreck, and Jeph's drawn a pretty good picture of a 'ship with hull breaches port and starboard -- but I don't think that first quote in Tender's quartet is exactly, um, exact. However, hearkening back to the conversation on which it appears to be based (immediately post Faye's initial hookup with Sven) ... Is it possible there was a bit of unconscious motivation on Faye's part to dig at M and D? IIRC, Marten acknowledged it would be a good dig on Faye's part, but his disinclination to believe she'd do that, plus the heat of Dora's initial reaction, led to the " irrational" comment from Marten.
And, you know, there have been a couple scenes where Faye's been, well, manipulative. I'm thinking in particular of immediately post Faye telling Angus about her dad, Marten (a little selfishly, I thought) being upset about that ... but Faye sorta tuned up the violin strings on Marten.
And I won't go digging for the citation, but I'm pretty sure Jeph's said in actual words he doesn't set out to have any of his characters be 100 percent at fault or blameless in a situation.
Gosh, it's like they're realistically portrayed characters or something.
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Dora's simply recognizing problems from the past relationship, and there's been a lot of drama generated from Marten's side. From a third-person omniscient point of view, especially one that strongly sympathizes with Marten, it's easy to look past those problems; however, when looking at the story from Dora's point of view, while you can still call some of her behavior irrational, it's also easy to see where problems with Marten developed, problems that were left unresolved. That's why she broke up with him.
I don't think the "pussyfooting" comment needs to be explained, considering how Marten's performed in the strip. From the start, she took the initiative in that relationship. Also, Marten's not the sharpest bulb in the box when it comes to recognizing the obvious, as demonstrated on numerous occasions. Regarding the "drama" from Marten's side of the relationship, just scroll through the archives to find some of the baggage he's carried: the complicated relationship with Faye, through all the (mis)interpretations; Veronica Vance, Marten's mother and Dora's childhood crush; Marten's job troubles, with the occasional existential moment; the band, together and apart; the Vespa Avenger... even living with Pintsize the Anthro PC can escalate into incidents involving the Robotics Defense Agency of the US Government. I'm not going to summarize the entire comic here, but Marten is tied to a lot of drama over the last 1946 strips.
Here are four more quotes that sum up Marten and Dora's relationship pretty well:
"Oh Dora, you're SO IRRATIONAL! Sit down and let me explain how you're being CRAZY and I'm ALWAYS RIGHT, 'cause I'm such a NICE GUY. Bluh blee bloo blah bloo."
"Marten, you could be trying to patch things up with Dora, but instead you're sitting here complaining to us. I mean, isn't sitting here blaming all your problems on women kind of... sexist?"
"It's hard to tell sometimes with him, because Marten tries to put a happy face on everything."
"Has he always been this inept with the ladies?"
Dora knew about Martens baggage before the realtionship started, she especially was aware of the Marten-Faye deal, and she is the one who pursued the relationship anyway. Even from a strictly pro-Dora perspective a lot of her positions are irrational or purely insecurity fed.
For example, that first quote is from a fight Dora picked with Marten when he took Faye hooking up with Sven calmly, as opposed to seeing a huge subtextual "Fuck you Marten and Dora" http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1097 and http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1098
It takes some pretty specific permutations of logic to come to the conclusion that Dora reaches. and the time that Dora picked a fight because Marten got a haircut? http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=857
Or the time Dora got mad at Marten for having residual feeling for his ex girlfriends? http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1066
or the time when Dora set Marten up for a fight over Cosette asking him out? http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1324
Marten did have some jerky moments ( http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=741, and http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=957 ) , but he spent the majority of that relationship bending over backwards for Dora. (of course, he bends over backwards for everyone else)
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That would be every comic where she and Marten fought and/or disagreed. Im not going through the strip history to find them. The relationship wasn't perfect to begin with, Dora didn't sink it all by herself.
So you refuse to back up your argument while others have gone to the effort to back their own reasons for believing that Dora should see a therapist.
Even though this is what you consider a opinion, some people would not want to date someone who had feelings for their friend first. I don't declare that therapy worthy, and Svens friends were likely douchebags. I'd like to see one relationship with a good, somewhat successful guy on a clean slate. If that fails then maybe somethings wrong, but I currently think she's just made bad relationship choices.
Except that your opinions have ignored other, valid points. You've ignored people who have spoken from personal experience. You admit that Dora has made bad relationship choices, but refuse to believe that there is something wrong when she keeps making the same mistakes. Einstein once said that “Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”. Dora isn’t insane, but she still repeating the past mistakes. She hasn’t learned from any of those mistakes and she is doomed to repeat them.
As for Dora wanting Faye to mind her own business, today's comic is plenty evidence. It was ok at first for Faye to care, but now it's just rude telling her she can't live her life.
So Faye can’t be concerned for her best friend? Or that she could see that Dora was beginning to twist events so that Marten was the villain in their break up? As someone mentioned earlier, Dora is acting like an alcoholic who has been dry for two months and thinks that’s it, so its time to celebrate with a tumbler of whiskey. Faye has experience, Dora has arrogance, which would you be more concerned about?
If you choose to believe she's so troubled that therapy is the only answer, then ok. We can agree to disagree. I guess Jeph will prove one of us wrong soon enough.
I do believe that she does need therapy, and that she does help to realise that she is on a self-destructive path. Her friends are too close for Dora to take them seriously or to believe them. A therapist just offers an outside perspective, and a trusted means of pointing things out.
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I have no support for this from the comic, unless you count Dora's passing mention of maybe getting help getting over her brother issues.
But does anyone else suspect that Dora realized she needed therapy and used Faye's threats to overcome her own fear of starting the process? In other words, the Pugnacious Peach Peer Pressure gave Dora the opportunity to start the therapy she wanted without first overcoming the hurdle of having to admit to herself that she needed it.
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wow TRVA123, that was a really helpful batch of comics. thanks (and to every other archive master that links to relevant strips in these discussions).
hindsight is a bitch.
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But does anyone else suspect that Dora realized she needed therapy and used Faye's threats to overcome her own fear of starting the process? In other words, the Pugnacious Peach Pressure gave Dora the opportunity to start the therapy she wanted without first overcoming the hurdle of having to admit to herself that she needed it.
huh, I hadn't considered that before, but it makes sense.
I think Sven would be a good candidate for helping Dora realize that she needs therapy. She's known him the longest (obviously!) he has the most backstory for her, and he has enough of an outsiders perspective that she just might listen to him.
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My apologies (translation: "Busted!") to Tender for the "um, exact" dig. I was assuming it was your sarcastic paraphrase of Marten when it was Dora's -- which, of course, makes it an exact quote from the comic.
I still like all the other stuff I said, though. ...
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TRVA - that first comic you linked to suggest that Marten has been an ass sometimes was just them putting on a show to get the VespAvenger to follow them. Otherwise, excellent list and very telling as far as what's happened so far between M/D.
I sometimes wonder if there's some confusion over what a therapist does. So many people think that one only goes to a therapist because something is "wrong" with them when really that's often not the case. Stoutfiles, you mentioned that "She still goes to work, she doesn't alienate her friends, etc. She's not crying all day at work...she looks to be doing just fine given she just had a big breakup not too long ago." - but there are many other things that can happen that mean someone should look into therapy. I think you're confusing "needing therapy" with "having depression".
You say that Faye shouldn't be handing out advice to Dora... and you say Dora doesn't need advice from a therapist... but it's obvious that she's still got issues she can't handle on her own, so where do YOU think she should start? Therapy is a good way to address issues that you don't even know you have. When you know there's something you can't get over, but you don't know how to express it or what it is about it that upsets you.
For example, in Dora's first meeting with the therapist, she talked for an hour about Sven, then couldn't understand why the therapist didn't talk about her relationships. She has absolutely no idea where her insecurities are stemming from, even though that was an obvious clue to those of us watching from the outside. She's sabotaged her relationship with Marten several times, and he was pretty damn patient with her. That's not to say he hasn't done anything wrong at all, but her attitude has been one of mistrust for a very long time, with no reason to be mistrustful. There's some pretty deep-seated problems there - even Sven pointed that out - and she's not going to work them out on her own, or she would have by now.
Even a couple sessions with a therapist can really change your outlook on things and get you started down the right path. Sometimes it takes an unbiased person who knows the right questions to get you to look at things from a different perspective.
So I do have another question for you, stoutfiles - even if she doesn't need it, what could it hurt?
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TRVA - that first comic you linked to suggest that Marten has been an ass sometimes was just them putting on a show to get the VespAvenger to follow them. Otherwise, excellent list and very telling as far as what's happened so far between M/D.
haha, no, I'm aware of the context of that link, it was meant to highlight where Marten was laying it on too thick. Its one of the few times I could fine where he acted without regard to Dora's feelings. (without being pushed to the brink of impulsive anger by Dora first)
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That would be every comic where she and Marten fought and/or disagreed. Im not going through the strip history to find them. The relationship wasn't perfect to begin with, Dora didn't sink it all by herself.
So you refuse to back up your argument while others have gone to the effort to back their own reasons for believing that Dora should see a therapist.
I'm not going to catalog every argument they had to prove a point to someone who's mind is already made up. Sorry.
Except that your opinions have ignored other, valid points. You've ignored people who have spoken from personal experience. You admit that Dora has made bad relationship choices, but refuse to believe that there is something wrong when she keeps making the same mistakes. Einstein once said that “Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”. Dora isn’t insane, but she still repeating the past mistakes. She hasn’t learned from any of those mistakes and she is doomed to repeat them.
They are her wrong choices to make. Dora's a big girl, if she wants to go to therapy she can. If not, she doesn't have to. She especially doesn't need to hear it from Faye at work, uncalled for.
So Faye can’t be concerned for her best friend? Or that she could see that Dora was beginning to twist events so that Marten was the villain in their break up? As someone mentioned earlier, Dora is acting like an alcoholic who has been dry for two months and thinks that’s it, so its time to celebrate with a tumbler of whiskey. Faye has experience, Dora has arrogance, which would you be more concerned about?
For being best friends, they sure don't get along that much! I'd be more concerned if Dora consoled Faye on any decision she made because of all her experience. "Sorry Jim, but Faye says I can't date you."
I do believe that she does need therapy, and that she does help to realise that she is on a self-destructive path. Her friends are too close for Dora to take them seriously or to believe them. A therapist just offers an outside perspective, and a trusted means of pointing things out.
What horrible things will happen to Dora if she doesn't get help? Will she be alone forever?
So I do have another question for you, stoutfiles - even if she doesn't need it, what could it hurt?
If Dora wants to go to therapy, then more power to her! I want it to be her decision, and not Faye pressuring her.
<mod: edit to correct quoting for comprehensibility>
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That "happy face" is a facet of his personality that's linked to how he acts, not only in relationships, but in everyday life. [...] I think Marten's façade is especially telling when looking at the relationship: Sometimes he pouted, but he kept trying to smooth things over with a happy face, a song and dance... all up to the end, where he is left staring blankly at Dora as she tells him it is over.
If I come over as unduly sympathetic to Marten, this is because in certain respects I really am (or once was) like him; I have said before that some of Marten's low-key approach to life is just like mine, but it didn't stop me making a good-enough fist of it in the end.
There are also some parallels between the breakup of my first marriage (after 22 years) and the breakup of Marten and Dora's relationship (though I wouldn't press that too far, which is why I've only occasionally mentioned specific things). When I said that Dora seemed to be blaming Marten, even though only by implication, that is because I recognised it as very close to how my first wife spoke of me - so I had real-life reinforcement for that interpretation. I should say that the man my former wife went on to marry (in spite of not facing her issues, as I saw it), and with whom she'd previously been having an affair, has proved an excellent partner for her - and indeed I also like him very much.
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Here are four more quotes that sum up Marten and Dora's relationship pretty well:
"Oh Dora, you're SO IRRATIONAL! Sit down and let me explain how you're being CRAZY and I'm ALWAYS RIGHT, 'cause I'm such a NICE GUY. Bluh blee bloo blah bloo."
"Marten, you could be trying to patch things up with Dora, but instead you're sitting here complaining to us. I mean, isn't sitting here blaming all your problems on women kind of... sexist?"
"It's hard to tell sometimes with him, because Marten tries to put a happy face on everything."
"Has he always been this inept with the ladies?"
It would probably help on the first one if it wasn't technically accurate, IE in most of the cases Dora WAS being irrational. Marten might not have phrased things as cleanly as he could have but Doras behavior was not rational, she even frequently realized that if she was given a bit of time or a more aggressive confrontation on the subject.
The second one, Marten was frustrated and did what plenty of guys in that situation do, blame women as a whole, not a good or healthy thing but it does happen. It's also worth noting that moments later he paused and was willing to blame all men for the worlds problems, with Hannelore, the person who said it in the first place joining in on that.
For the next one, Marten tries hard to make others happy and keep things from blowing up, Marten might have had an easier time with the relationship and it might still be there if he had either been more willing to confront Dora (IE not be in conflict avoidance mode) or if he had been willing to be blunter on things. Then again it might have only exacerbated things.
Followed by "He always had the bumbling sweetheart aspect, it's how his father got me" Now admittedly his father was gay, so there is some room for quibbling there.
As for stuff with the vespavenger and government and the like it's again worth noting that most of these were not caused my Marten, instead these were wandering plots that happened to fall on him.
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(stuff)
So basically you're saying that friends shouldn't give you advice, because it's up to you to make your own choices, including mistakes; and friends that are prepared to tell you what they think of your behaviour are not true friends? That sounds to me like a recipe for loneliness in old age, or earlier, even.
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Even from a strictly pro-Dora perspective...
This is where I'd usually recuse myself from the discussion, because I'm not a member of a some kind of bizarre Pro-XXX character faction. Such a polarizing environment... I simply think many put all of the blame on Dora while cutting Marten too much slack, looking past his problems. Enough slack to hang himself. Those problems are often detrimental in relationships. He has some serious character flaws, which is fine! Tying into what DSL wrote earier, I don't think any of the characters are perfect 100% of the time, not by a longshot.
Besides, it's really tiresome to scroll past the same "I think she should wait longer!" comments; much similar to the "I think Marten should wait longer!" ones when Padma first appeared.
Anyway, finding instances of when you consider Dora to be acting irrational doesn't really mean anything to me, since I've already mentioned it's easy to call some of her behavior irrational. Just as you can find a lot of instances where Marten is not acting in a way conducive to a healthy relationship. Just as you can also find a lot of examples where they are both acting fine together. Also, while Dora knew about some of the baggage, it's very hard to deny that the baggage didn't cause any drama, which was my point when I replied to Paul's comment.
I would argue the difference here though is that Marten wasn't constantly calling Dora irrational, if he were then Dora complaining the way she did would make more sense in the area of 'Marten is being undercutting' or something similar. Instead however we end up in a situation where Dora does something irrational, usually doing it at Marten, Marten calls her out on it, and she gets angry. The problem is that either Marten does nothing about it which would be fairly unhealthy, or he calls her out on it and instead we end up with her blowing her stack at him for that and apparently having it seen as a negative trait of his.
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That would be every comic where she and Marten fought and/or disagreed. Im not going through the strip history to find them. The relationship wasn't perfect to begin with, Dora didn't sink it all by herself.
So you refuse to back up your argument while others have gone to the effort to back their own reasons for believing that Dora should see a therapist.
I'm not going to catalog every argument they had to prove a point to someone who's mind is already made up. Sorry.
Except that your opinions have ignored other, valid points. You've ignored people who have spoken from personal experience. You admit that Dora has made bad relationship choices, but refuse to believe that there is something wrong when she keeps making the same mistakes. Einstein once said that “Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”. Dora isn’t insane, but she still repeating the past mistakes. She hasn’t learned from any of those mistakes and she is doomed to repeat them.
They are her wrong choices to make. Dora's a big girl, if she wants to go to therapy she can. If not, she doesn't have to. She especially doesn't need to hear it from Faye at work, uncalled for.
So Faye can’t be concerned for her best friend? Or that she could see that Dora was beginning to twist events so that Marten was the villain in their break up? As someone mentioned earlier, Dora is acting like an alcoholic who has been dry for two months and thinks that’s it, so its time to celebrate with a tumbler of whiskey. Faye has experience, Dora has arrogance, which would you be more concerned about?
For being best friends, they sure don't get along that much! I'd be more concerned if Dora consoled Faye on any decision she made because of all her experience. "Sorry Jim, but Faye says I can't date you."
I do believe that she does need therapy, and that she does help to realise that she is on a self-destructive path. Her friends are too close for Dora to take them seriously or to believe them. A therapist just offers an outside perspective, and a trusted means of pointing things out.
What horrible things will happen to Dora if she doesn't get help? Will she be alone forever?
So I do have another question for you, stoutfiles - even if she doesn't need it, what could it hurt?
If Dora wants to go to therapy, then more power to her! I want it to be her decision, and not Faye pressuring her.
A few points
1) People have been willing to post links showing rebuttals to your assertions, you seem to have either ignored them or you disagree, fine. But why not offer a few counter arguments for your own position, I am willing to change my view in light of new information and perspectives.
2) Yes, they are Doras decisions to make, but that doesn't mean that people who care about her should be ignored or treated as bad because they try to offer help and advice. Dora also offered plenty of advice to Faye in the strip as well, would you call that being a bad person or friend to her?
3) Their friendship may be rather acidic but it is there. The second thing is that you're hyperbolizing what was said and jumping to an odd conclusion. Faye might just be saying that Jim seems a bit off to her, it might be a bit like her faulty threat detection in earlier strips where she was even afraid of Marten in some regards (and in these cases Dora called her out on it and confronted the issues).
4) Alone forever, maybe maybe not. However it is worth noting that she even realized that her decisions were irrational in the relationship if she was given enough time to think about it. And according to both her and Sven her earlier boyfriends were abusers, maybe just emotional maybe also physical but they were still abusers. Dora might not end up 'forever alone' if she doesn't deal with her issues but she might find herself either in another abusive relationship or flying off the handle one time too often to the point where her friends decide that they have frankly had enough.
5) It's also important to note that Dora had to push Faye a fair amount to help get her into therapy, more to the point so did Marten, would you say that they were being bad friends for doing that? Faye wasn't crying constantly either, she was able to work just fine and had friends, would you say that the therapy for her was unnecessary?
<mod: edit to correct quoting for comprehensibility>
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I think I see the point here:
Friendly if firm advice: Marten to Faye, "Just go on a date with him[Angus]"
Disrespectful and arrogant meddling: "I can't believe you're going on a DATE with that creeper"
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For example, in Dora's first meeting with the therapist, she talked for an hour about Sven, then couldn't understand why the therapist didn't talk about her relationships. She has absolutely no idea where her insecurities are stemming from, even though that was an obvious clue to those of us watching from the outside. She's sabotaged her relationship with Marten several times, and he was pretty damn patient with her. That's not to say he hasn't done anything wrong at all, but her attitude has been one of mistrust for a very long time, with no reason to be mistrustful. There's some pretty deep-seated problems there - even Sven pointed that out - and she's not going to work them out on her own, or she would have by now.
In this (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1107) comic she comes very close to this subject, but it's hard to tell if she realizes the problem or if she's not anywhere near realizing it. I think there was on more comic where she talked about it, but I don't find it right now.
Besides, it's really tiresome to scroll past the same "I think she should wait longer!" comments; much similar to the "I think Marten should wait longer!" ones when Padma first appeared.
I have written a few of those. But it's not really about the time aspect, it's that the two haven't met each other since the breakup. I feel they have few loose ends to straighten out before they can go on.
What horrible things will happen to Dora if she doesn't get help? Will she be alone forever?
Yes, quite probably. I have a hard to see what kind of partner she would have to find for a relationship to work when she has these insecurities, and I think we have proved she isn't doing anything about it on her own. That is why her friends are right in pushing her, but I can agree Faye isn't exactly doing it in a good way.
Faye is extremely protective about her friends, and she still sees this kind of relationships as threats, potential troublemakers. She has reacted against every date we've ever heard of in the comic, I think. She has reacted badly about quite a few of the fights between Marten and Dora, and she was in rage when they broke up. And she doesn't do things in the most healthy manner, which both she and her therapist knows very well - see when she threats Dora into therapy (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1808).
(these points about Faye were also addressed by Blackjoker, and very descriptive by Is it cold in here?, thankyou both)
Back to what could happen to Dora if she ignores her friends requests to do something about it and hooks up with Jim "instead". Well, if it goes really bad she could alienate more or less all of her friends which includes her employees, I don't find it hard to see that ruining her business... or she could simply have yet another problematic relationship, which could easily render her depressed right now.
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Everything Blackjoker has just said? I agree with it fully.
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You know something? I just realized a point in favor of those who wonder if Dora's distracted:
No specials.
Go ahead, look back. It's all the way back at 1907, which was the day that Marten finally "re-entered" CoD, only to discover Dora wasn't there (because she was moving). That was the last time we saw any specials on the chalkboard.
Now, you could argue that they had the bean issue later on, but there was nothing on the board back in 1945, when Tai came in to the shop at least a day or two after the bean issue had been resolved.
She's distracted. Either that or she forgot to get chalk.
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Faye is extremely protective about her friends, and she still sees this kind of relationships as threats, potential troublemakers. She has reacted against every date we've ever heard of in the comic, I think.
I had to stop and think about that, but I believe you're right.
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You know something? I just realized a point in favor of those who wonder if Dora's distracted:
No specials.
Go ahead, look back. It's all the way back at 1907, which was the day that Marten finally "re-entered" CoD, only to discover Dora wasn't there (because she was moving). That was the last time we saw any specials on the chalkboard.
Now, you could argue that they had the bean issue later on, but there was nothing on the board back in 1945, when Tai came in to the shop at least a day or two after the bean issue had been resolved.
She's distracted. Either that or she forgot to get chalk.
Possible, though that could just be more either the creator of the universe forgetting to put it up or them being too busy selling the delicious delicious pastries to do any specials.
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I'm not going to catalog every argument they had to prove a point to someone who's mind is already made up. Sorry.
Okay, as entertaining as this thread has been so far(?), I have to pipe up and call bullshit on this one.
OP, you've taken a particularly pro-Dora stance from the get-go, and after NUMEROUS eloquent, factual and referenced counters were made your next most significant input was to bash Faye for attempting to "drag Dora down."
You advocated that Dora ought to be allowed to be "controlling." Do those being "controlled" have anything to say about that, I wonder? And if being controlling is just fine, how is it that suggesting a path to pursue is so unworthy of a friendship? Oh, but Faye's insistence on her going to therapy (with the threat of physical harm) could be controlling...
You've suggested that Dora was too good for Marten, when in fact she has openly admitted that she has issues and throughout the comic strip has irrationally sabotaged her relationship.
Moreover, you've made wide assumptions based on far-reaching ideas that have no basis in the comic as a means to justify what Dora could be doing. Well-wishing for anyone is all fine and good (even if the character is fictitious), but within reason - and wholly useless in the context of the question "Why does Dora need therapy?" (as opposed to, say, "Dora's future: what will happen now?")
I fail to see any point to your "arguments," other than to paint Dora in as best a light as possible.
I'm not sure if it's because you see yourself in Dora somewhat (which is possible), nor do I know if you have any experience with how you see her life as having progressed, either by having an (ex) boyfriend like Marten or what-have-you. At this point, however, as someone who has read this thread from top to bottom, you're doing a disservice to the people that took you up on intelligent discussion. What you've stated is little more than an opinion, and a biased one at that; so why even ask this question if you have no interest in actually getting an *answer*?
This just looks like trolling from here on out to me.
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I think I see the point here:
Friendly if firm advice: Marten to Faye, "Just go on a date with him[Angus]"
Disrespectful and arrogant meddling: "I can't believe you're going on a DATE with that creeper"
Hey all, casual lurker, occasional poster here. :-)
When Hannelore wanted to go on a casual, non-date with Sven, Dora's exact words were "you picked literally the WORST POSSIBLE GUY to do it with" (words about her own brother - nice, hey?) Then, when poor Hannelore backed off (after it took her considerable bravery to get over her fears and ask Sven) Dora said "it's against my better judgement...but you can go". This really irritated me at the time, because why does Hannelore need Dora's permission to go on a date with Sven? I couldn't believe that Dora had the gall to "give Hanners permission" to go on a date...as if she had anything to do with it to begin with.
My point is that Dora is, (in my very humble opinion) by FAR the most meddling/sticks-her-nose-where-it-doesn't-belong-character in the strip. In this case, Faye is expressing her trepidation towards Dora going on a date at all, let alone a date with a guy who seems to have residual anger issues towards his ex-wife and lawyer, not meddling. I would want my friends to tell me if they thought a guy was a creeper too...it shows that they care. Besides, my mom always taught me to trust your gut, and Faye's guy feeling is that this guy is a "creeper" (I sort of agree with her, to be honest).
So, in my opinion:
Friendly, but firm advice: "I thought you were gonna try and work out some of your issues..."
Disrespectful and arrogant meddling: "It's against my better judgement...but you can go".
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And I guess that my even bigger point is that YES, Dora needs therapy. She has major control issues/sibling rivalry issues/insecurity issues.
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I think I see the point here:
Friendly if firm advice: Marten to Faye, "Just go on a date with him[Angus]"
Disrespectful and arrogant meddling: "I can't believe you're going on a DATE with that creeper"
Hey all, casual lurker, occasional poster here. :-)
When Hannelore wanted to go on a casual, non-date with Sven, Dora's exact words were "you picked literally the WORST POSSIBLE GUY to do it with" (words about her own brother - nice, hey?) Then, when poor Hannelore backed off (after it took her considerable bravery to get over her fears and ask Sven) Dora said "it's against my better judgement...but you can go". This really irritated me at the time, because why does Hannelore need Dora's permission to go on a date with Sven? I couldn't believe that Dora had the gall to "give Hanners permission" to go on a date...as if she had anything to do with it to begin with.
My point is that Dora is, (in my very humble opinion) by FAR the most meddling/sticks-her-nose-where-it-doesn't-belong-character in the strip. In this case, Faye is expressing her trepidation towards Dora going on a date at all, let alone a date with a guy who seems to have residual anger issues towards his ex-wife and lawyer, not meddling. I would want my friends to tell me if they thought a guy was a creeper too...it shows that they care. Besides, my mom always taught me to trust your gut, and Faye's guy feeling is that this guy is a "creeper" (I sort of agree with her, to be honest).
So, in my opinion:
Friendly, but firm advice: "I thought you were gonna try and work out some of your issues..."
Disrespectful and arrogant meddling: "It's against my better judgement...but you can go".
I agree with you in some ways I just went back and reread the whole thing and I can see some of your point but there are a couple things too that could be mentioned, if only for devils advocate.
1) Dora might have been worried that Svens manwhore ways would end up with him trying to seduce Hannelore which would certainly end badly for those involved. Her comment might not have been nice, but she might have also reflected that if Sven was apparently able to get the pugnacious peach into bed that the hyperventilating Hannelore might also be a possibility and foresaw that it would be possible and that it might end up hurting Hannelore or causing other drama.
2) There is also the fact that Dora even mentioned that Hannelore brought out some of her maternal side, usually when they had to care for her when she got sick or something similar, so that might explain some of her whole permission thing and the like. Not saying that it's good or right, just that I can sort of see where it came from.
3) Given Hannelores occasional overreactions herself there might have also been some risk to Sven or those around them and even if she isn't thrilled with Sven she likely doesn't wish him ill, at least not to that extent.
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1) People have been willing to post links showing rebuttals to your assertions, you seem to have either ignored them or you disagree, fine. But why not offer a few counter arguments for your own position, I am willing to change my view in light of new information and perspectives.
2) Yes, they are Doras decisions to make, but that doesn't mean that people who care about her should be ignored or treated as bad because they try to offer help and advice. Dora also offered plenty of advice to Faye in the strip as well, would you call that being a bad person or friend to her?
3) Their friendship may be rather acidic but it is there. The second thing is that you're hyperbolizing what was said and jumping to an odd conclusion. Faye might just be saying that Jim seems a bit off to her, it might be a bit like her faulty threat detection in earlier strips where she was even afraid of Marten in some regards (and in these cases Dora called her out on it and confronted the issues).
4) Alone forever, maybe maybe not. However it is worth noting that she even realized that her decisions were irrational in the relationship if she was given enough time to think about it. And according to both her and Sven her earlier boyfriends were abusers, maybe just emotional maybe also physical but they were still abusers. Dora might not end up 'forever alone' if she doesn't deal with her issues but she might find herself either in another abusive relationship or flying off the handle one time too often to the point where her friends decide that they have frankly had enough.
5) It's also important to note that Dora had to push Faye a fair amount to help get her into therapy, more to the point so did Marten, would you say that they were being bad friends for doing that? Faye wasn't crying constantly either, she was able to work just fine and had friends, would you say that the therapy for her was unnecessary?
1) http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=1395
Dora admits that they don't have much in common.
2) There is a time and place. Not at work in front of people, and not over and over. Faye has made her point already, Dora seems to be rejecting it. If Faye keeps pushing therapy it will only strain their friendship.
3) They just fight a lot lately, but yes, I agree they are still good friends. I don't think Faye should be judging people on their forwardness given that Angus was basically a huge creeper when he first appeared.
4) If her friends deserted her she would be more motivated to get help. Although, it'd be pretty hard for them to do that since she employs half of them. Their just isn't a lot of motivation to get help right now, everything in her life is getting back on track. Only in a downward spiral will she want to get help.
5) There's a difference between a soft push and a forceful push. The way Faye is doing it is coming off as naggy and bossy, and isn't the right way to go about it. She should also wait till after work.
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Once again, Faye is trying to drag Dora down. Jim is now declared a creeper (Angus was the definition of creeper when he was introduced) and Dora needs to not date and get help. When did Faye become an expert on these things? I mean, her life is so great and on the fast track to success! So naturally she knows everything! It's as if she wants Dora to get help to feel better about herself needing help.
Good for your Dora. Jim is different from your manatee ex-boyfriend and fits you much better. Stop taking advice from all your troubled coworkers!
She is the expert on not dating and getting help. She didn't date Marten and got help. And as a result of that she's now in a pretty healthy relationship. Anyone in the comic who commented on the relationship said how well they worked together. Also, being troubled doesn't make someone braindead. Some people don't take their own good advice. Other than professionally, how is Dora successful? Dora admitted to needing help. I think that's everything.
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1) http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1395
Dora admits that they don't have much in common.
Stoutfiles, you are seriously reaching.
She said that ONE aspect of Marten, which is a sizeable portion of him, is one she'll never be able to have a conversation with him about, and even if she did it'd be a girlfriend one.
How on EARTH did you take that to mean, and I quote, "they don't have much in common"? Face it, you're projecting, and at this point doing a poor job of it. If you have issues with Marten, just say it, but now you're just grasping at straws.
What really is your problem with this angle of the strip? What about Dora puts you so zealously on her "side" of things?
P.S. Link works now.
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Spectre, I think the Original Post offers a clue:
I've not convinced she was happy with Marten; therefore, she created situations in her mind to get mad at him. Dora's a young, successful business woman. Marten is a flaky librarian assistant with no ambition to do anything. Once the initial attraction wore off, I wouldn't put it past Dora to wonder why she was even dating someone who didn't have the same drive as her. Marten is...well....kind of a loser when you look at the big picture. So Dora breaks up with him, with hardly any emotion towards it, and now she needs to get help? I think not.
Dora, you're perfectly fine. Date someone that's more your type and it'll work out fine.
Dora is a successful business woman; Marten is a flaky loser with no ambition. By these definitions, they do have little in common besides good sex, and that fades.
If this were an Ayn Rand novel, we'd be bulldozed with Dora's healthy life-affirming positive qualities and business successes, while Manatee boy would be a plot device to show human stagnation and failure. He'd be in therapy, or put on a bus, but Dora? Never! She's the success=hero and can do no wrong!
Except that in Questionable Content, Marten is our (anti?) hero. For him, success = supporting himself and fun with friends. A whole different, relaxed kettle of beer.
I agree, Dora was (unconsciously?) creating problems, perhaps aware she had made a mistake THAT MARTEN WOULDN'T EVEN SEE AS A MISTAKE. So how to end it?
Lots of human mistakes are never admitted, even (especially!) to oneself, just ways are found to "fix" (avoid, walk away from) the problems...
Perhaps this is why she ended it with no real explanation to Marten; he wouldn't have understoob.
edit: he wouldn't have understood "Lack of Ambition" as a reason to leave someone.
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Thank god this isn't an Ayn Rand novel, her characters don't talk to each other so much as monologue at each other.
I think Marten would understand where Dora's problems in the relationship are coming from, it's just that there's nothing he could do about her insecurities that he wasn't doing already. He'd have to go to ridiculous lengths to avoid any other women, discuss every new cosmetic decision he makes with Dora ahead of time, never mention/have feelings or attractions for any other women, and give up all privacy rights. This list is a bit absurd, and I don't think Dora is that bad consistently, but they have had fights based on all of these things.
Dora needs to learn to trust those around her. Part of dating someone is to trust that they won't violate the terms of your relationship, even if you're not there to keep an eye on them. esp if you're dating someone with an active social life, if you didn't just sit back and trust them you might drive yourself crazy.
I don't think dating someone else will change Dora's ability to trust her partner. Unless she dates a shut in with no other friends. She will have to work on her trust issues before she can have a successful relationship. Or a good vacation, for that matter, does she trust anyone to run CoD while she goes away for a week or two/
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Thank god this isn't an Ayn Rand novel, her characters don't talk to each other so much as monologue at each other.
When they aren't raping each other.
I think Marten would understand where Dora's problems in the relationship are coming from, it's just that there's nothing he could do about her insecurities that he wasn't doing already.
Maybe if Marten had anything interesting going on in his life (any hobbies that he could share with any girlfriend so they had something to do besides fuck each other and gripe about work), things wouldn't have been so stagnant so quickly.
He'd have to go to ridiculous lengths to avoid any other women, discuss every new cosmetic decision he makes with Dora ahead of time, never mention/have feelings or attractions for any other women, and give up all privacy rights. This list is a bit absurd, and I don't think Dora is that bad consistently, but they have had fights based on all of these things.
Dora needs to learn to trust those around her. Part of dating someone is to trust that they won't violate the terms of your relationship, even if you're not there to keep an eye on them. esp if you're dating someone with an active social life, if you didn't just sit back and trust them you might drive yourself crazy.
Here is the interesting thing: This isn't an either or situation where only one person is to blame for the relationship going to Hell. Both Marten and Dora have equal shares in why things didn't work out (90% of which has to do with them flat out not being compatible in any way once they got past physical attraction to one another).
All the tolerance and trust in the world will still fail to save a relationship that was 100% based on just wanting to bone each other and having zero common interests, hobbies or perspectives on any of a myriad of topics each person considers important as the relationship tried to develop.
I don't think dating someone else will change Dora's ability to trust her partner. Unless she dates a shut in with no other friends. She will have to work on her trust issues before she can have a successful relationship. Or a good vacation, for that matter, does she trust anyone to run CoD while she goes away for a week or two/
As I recall, Marten set the tone for what he expected from Dora throughout the relationship (automatically freaking out and begging her not to kill him because he saw Hanner's boob, as someone pointed out in one of these threads that are all talking about the same subject). That kind of behavior goes on for several months and Dora gives him what he wants by acting according to how he repeatedly tells her he expects her to act, you see where this is going...
Point is, yes, Dora has issues, but with Marten it really was a case of him inviting the shit he got thanks to continuously telling Dora how he expected her to act. Restating the point: The relationship was doomed to begin with because neither Marten nor Dora were even remotely compatible with the type of person the other one was at the time the relationship started.
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1) http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1395
Dora admits that they don't have much in common.
Stoutfiles, you are seriously reaching.
She said that ONE aspect of Marten, which is a sizeable portion of him, is one she'll never be able to have a conversation with him about, and even if she did it'd be a girlfriend one.
How on EARTH did you take that to mean, and I quote, "they don't have much in common"? Face it, you're projecting, and at this point doing a poor job of it. If you have issues with Marten, just say it, but now you're just grasping at straws.
What really is your problem with this angle of the strip? What about Dora puts you so zealously on her "side" of things?
P.S. Link works now.
If you'd bother to look at this strip like it was a real relationship, you'd see that someone as one-dimensional as Marten would get old. He's a Nice Guy who puts on a happy face everyday and bows to whatever Dora wants. That never works. He has one interesting hobby and they can't talk about it...Hanners and co. get a slightly interesting Marten while Dora gets a manatee she can fuck. One aspect...it's his only aspect! Otherwise he's a guy who works at a meaningless job, and then goes to a coffee shop, a bakery, or a bar. I've never hid the fact that I have a big problem with Marten having any motivation to better himself, especially for a guy that never seems to be happy.
My problem is that anyone dating Marten would appear crazy as they'd want to escape the bleak purgatory he creates but would have no openings to do so. The whole time with him would be an unstimulating bore; witty comments and niceness only go so far. I want to see Dora date someone who's not affiliated with her brother and who's not our everyman.
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If you'd bother to look at this strip like it was a real relationship, you'd see that someone as one-dimensional as Marten would get old. He's a Nice Guy who puts on a happy face everyday and bows to whatever Dora wants. That never works. He has one interesting hobby and they can't talk about it...Hanners and co. get a slightly interesting Marten while Dora gets a manatee she can fuck. One aspect...it's his only aspect! Otherwise he's a guy who works at a meaningless job, and then goes to a coffee shop, a bakery, or a bar. I've never hid the fact that I have a big problem with Marten having any motivation to better himself, especially for a guy that never seems to be happy.
You may think so, but we don't know all about the characters' lives. If we do, the only conclusion is that most of the characters have no interests but booze and relationships. Think about, what do we know about Dora's interests? Coffee, a small interest in computers and there has been some music discussions. Most of the comic is actually discussions about relationships and drama in their circle of friends, and that may be pretty much what their lives are all about. It's actually what I would call the main interest of most people, and it's extraordinarily obvious in the case of Marten.
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1) http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1395
Dora admits that they don't have much in common.
Stoutfiles, you are seriously reaching.
She said that ONE aspect of Marten, which is a sizeable portion of him, is one she'll never be able to have a conversation with him about, and even if she did it'd be a girlfriend one.
How on EARTH did you take that to mean, and I quote, "they don't have much in common"? Face it, you're projecting, and at this point doing a poor job of it. If you have issues with Marten, just say it, but now you're just grasping at straws.
What really is your problem with this angle of the strip? What about Dora puts you so zealously on her "side" of things?
P.S. Link works now.
If you'd bother to look at this strip like it was a real relationship, you'd see that someone as one-dimensional as Marten would get old. He's a Nice Guy who puts on a happy face everyday and bows to whatever Dora wants. That never works. He has one interesting hobby and they can't talk about it...Hanners and co. get a slightly interesting Marten while Dora gets a manatee she can fuck. One aspect...it's his only aspect! Otherwise he's a guy who works at a meaningless job, and then goes to a coffee shop, a bakery, or a bar. I've never hid the fact that I have a big problem with Marten having any motivation to better himself, especially for a guy that never seems to be happy.
My problem is that anyone dating Marten would appear crazy as they'd want to escape the bleak purgatory he creates but would have no openings to do so. The whole time with him would be an unstimulating bore; witty comments and niceness only go so far. I want to see Dora date someone who's not affiliated with her brother and who's not our everyman.
As opposed to Dora who could, if viewed through similar uncharitable lenses, be seen as sex obsessed and who manages a little coffee shop and has very little respect for others boundaries. And as mentioned before we don't see every moment of their lives, as for Dora...we see her complain about her cat, know she has a bit of computer skill but goes ballistic if someone fails to compliment it heavily enough (see when Marigold saw it for the first time). Dora doesn't exactly have a ton of depth either.
And to the idea that they had nothing in common...well apparently she and Marten liked watching horror movies together, the knew enough about her interests to get both of them tickets to a convention catering to same. Marten is a bit of a music nerd, aside from also being able to play music, but you'll notice that Dora tends to have no problem talking about music, her tastes are just a bit different and more narrow, focused more on heavy metal than Marten. They played video games together as well a few times for get togethers. For all we know everyone in the cast could be a cthulhu cultist, both due to the nature of the webcomic and the nature of webcomic time we don't see every aspect of them or all of their hobbies. Faye and Angus might not have a ton of overlapping interests either, Angus probably has a fair interest in politics but Faye never expressed interests in it, does that mean that their relationship is doomed too?
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Maybe if Marten had anything interesting going on in his life (any hobbies that he could share with any girlfriend so they had something to do besides fuck each other and gripe about work), things wouldn't have been so stagnant so quickly.
Why is the responsibility entirely with him?
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Maybe if Marten had anything interesting going on in his life (any hobbies that he could share with any girlfriend so they had something to do besides fuck each other and gripe about work), things wouldn't have been so stagnant so quickly.
Why is the responsibility entirely with him?
Why is the responsibility entirely with Dora? Oh wait, you're asking a question that isn't even remotely related to what I said.
Here is the interesting thing: This isn't an either or situation where only one person is to blame for the relationship going to Hell. Both Marten and Dora have equal shares in why things didn't work out (90% of which has to do with them flat out not being compatible in any way once they got past physical attraction to one another).
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I don't know, I didn't see that stagnancy was an issue. I thought it was more the totally inequal rules placed on the participants in the relationship and the frequent arguments that arose from this. Which two people in the comics are compatible in your mind?
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I don't know, I didn't see that stagnancy was an issue. I thought it was more the totally inequal rules placed on the participants in the relationship and the frequent arguments that arose from this. Which two people in the comics are compatible in your mind?
No two characters are actually all that compatible with one another, with the possible exception of Angus and Faye at the moment because they are each honestly looking for what they're getting from each other (Angus is into being abused, Faye is into dishing out abuse, this is perfectly fine as long as the people getting into the relationship agree to it ahead of time).
You know, as opposed to Marten and Dora, where they were both claiming they wanted one thing but treating the other person like they were expecting something completely different. Marten is just as guilty of this as Dora, what with starting off on treating her as if he expected her to rail him about everything from the very start.
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Marten and Dora enjoyed each other's company when she wasn't being completely unreasonable, had lots of sex, they seemed quite attached to each other. Why else would Dora be afraid of losing him? Why else would Marten be sad when the relationship ended?
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1) http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1395
Dora admits that they don't have much in common.
Stoutfiles, you are seriously reaching.
She said that ONE aspect of Marten, which is a sizeable portion of him, is one she'll never be able to have a conversation with him about, and even if she did it'd be a girlfriend one.
How on EARTH did you take that to mean, and I quote, "they don't have much in common"? Face it, you're projecting, and at this point doing a poor job of it. If you have issues with Marten, just say it, but now you're just grasping at straws.
What really is your problem with this angle of the strip? What about Dora puts you so zealously on her "side" of things?
P.S. Link works now.
If you'd bother to look at this strip like it was a real relationship, you'd see that someone as one-dimensional as Marten would get old. He's a Nice Guy who puts on a happy face everyday and bows to whatever Dora wants. That never works. He has one interesting hobby and they can't talk about it...Hanners and co. get a slightly interesting Marten while Dora gets a manatee she can fuck. One aspect...it's his only aspect! Otherwise he's a guy who works at a meaningless job, and then goes to a coffee shop, a bakery, or a bar. I've never hid the fact that I have a big problem with Marten having any motivation to better himself, especially for a guy that never seems to be happy.
My problem is that anyone dating Marten would appear crazy as they'd want to escape the bleak purgatory he creates but would have no openings to do so. The whole time with him would be an unstimulating bore; witty comments and niceness only go so far. I want to see Dora date someone who's not affiliated with her brother and who's not our everyman.
Actually, I have bothered to look at this strip like a real relationship, which is what has kept me interested for as long as it has. I have actually paid more attention to this webcomic than any TV show in recent time. Marten is one-dimensional, and I'm not all that interested in him either, compared to his friends and how he interacts with them. But I don't go and make up stuff for my favourites like you apparently do (as pointed out in my previous reply).
You are doing nothing more right now than projecting yourself and your views on your favourite character (talk about something getting old!), and attempting to defend a point that Dora should or should not being going to therapy because she broke up with Marten.
If you had bothered to read the comic, you may have picked up that Dora has ALWAYS had issues. Pushing her to therapy was an event that came after the break-up, because her given reasons for the break-up were the culmination of all her issues affecting not only her life but those around her. THAT requires HELP, if you can't do it alone(and Dora has admitted that she tried to get over her issues; I'm not making this one up, she actually said those words). To give you an actual answer to your OP title: Dora needs therapy because her issues are holding her back in aspects of life that she has stated she wanted to change, which are affecting her in a detrimental way, and she cannot change on her own.
Besides, who are you to judge what relationships she can or cannot have, any more than her friends? Their every moments aren't displayed in this comic. Who are you to say you know better than those who spend all their time with her? If you had bothered to look at the strip like it was a real relationship, you'd know they're NEVER as simple as they seem from the outside, and a detached 3rd-person view never accounts for actual feelings.
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Marten and Dora enjoyed each other's company when she wasn't being completely unreasonable, had lots of sex, they seemed quite attached to each other. Why else would Dora be afraid of losing him?
Dora wasn't afraid of losing Marten, she was afraid of the emotional rollercoaster that usually accompanies her breakups.
Why else would Marten be sad when the relationship ended?
Marten being sad when the relationship ended really didn't act too much different from Marten on any other day (after he got blackout drunk and got over the hangover the next day). He just relocated in terms of where he spends his free time.
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Marten and Dora enjoyed each other's company when she wasn't being completely unreasonable, had lots of sex, they seemed quite attached to each other. Why else would Dora be afraid of losing him?
Dora wasn't afraid of losing Marten, she was afraid of the emotional rollercoaster that usually accompanies her breakups.
Why else would Marten be sad when the relationship ended?
Marten being sad when the relationship ended really didn't act too much different from Marten on any other day (after he got blackout drunk and got over the hangover the next day). He just relocated in terms of where he spends his free time.
What emotional roller coaster? The emotional roller coaster comes from losing someone you didn't want to lose. And might I direct you to today's issue.
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If you had bothered to read the comic, you may have picked up that Dora has ALWAYS had issues. Pushing her to therapy was an event that came after the break-up, because her given reasons for the break-up were the culmination of all her issues affecting not only her life but those around her. THAT requires HELP, if you can't do it alone(and Dora has admitted that she tried to get over her issues; I'm not making this one up, she actually said those words). To give you an actual answer to your OP title: Dora needs therapy because her issues are holding her back in aspects of life that she has stated she wanted to change, which are affecting her in a detrimental way, and she cannot change on her own.
This is my biggest thing - it's not that Dora needs therapy now because she broke up with Marten, or because she and Marten weren't a good match. She needed therapy before she even MET Marten. She should not have started dating him before getting past her issues, because they were SIGNIFICANT issues already. I'm not sure where this whole attitude of "Well, it was partly Marten's fault too" is coming from, because it has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not she needs therapy. I repeat - she needed therapy before she met him.
I mean, the basic sequence of events was - Marten pursues Faye. Faye denies Marten. Dora pursues Marten pretty much immediately. Dora constantly accuses Marten of still having feelings for Faye. Dora breaks up with Marten because she knows she can't work past this issue and that it is only hurting the relationship. She KNOWS it is not fair to Marten that he should have to feel the brunt of her insecurities when they're unfounded in reality. She KNOWS she needs help working through it, she just doesn't know where to start getting that help.
A lot of people subconsciously pick relationships that they know may not work because then if it doesn't work they don't have to feel so bad about it. It's a sort of self-affirmation mechanism - "I knew this would happen!" Or they break up with someone first so that they don't have to be the rejected one. Therapy helps people recognize that they are falling into this trap. Once you learn to break the sequence, you can work on changing the outcome. Many people who have never seen any sort of counselor sit there and say, "I don't like how I handle things, but I guess it's just how I am." Those who have been taught to recognize the signs of slippage can say, "I noticed I was falling into the spiral, so I stopped the spiral."
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Dora needing therapy is an entirely separate subject from the one over whether Marten shares any blame at all in the relationship with Dora getting shitcanned, I agree (that's kind of what I've been saying but people keep missing the point).
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(moderator)
People are mostly saying interesting things and focusing on the comic, but a few comments have veered toward the personal. Remember to criticize and psychoanalyze the characters and not forum members.
(/moderator)
If we pursue the hypothesis that Dora and Marten didn't have enough in common (supportable from the strip), and broke up because of that and not for the reasons Dora gave (speculative, but psychologically plausible), where does that line of thought put us? It means that Dora keeps choosing incompatible partners. That's either bad luck (possible but getting unlikely for someone her age) or the result of an emotional malfunction that leads her to pursue people who aren't good for her. In the latter case, we're back to her needing the help of an expert in human behavior and in leading people to self-insight.
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http://wapsisquare.com/comic/like-a-fable/
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If we pursue the hypothesis that Dora and Marten didn't have enough in common (supportable from the strip), and broke up because of that and not for the reasons Dora gave (speculative, but psychologically plausible), where does that line of thought put us?
It puts us on "lets wait and see where Jeph takes this" instead of "Oh holy shit, Dora is a slut!" like some people are just a half-step short of doing.
It means that Dora keeps choosing incompatible partners.
Or it means that the local dating pool is full of people Dora isn't compatible with and she'd probably be happier if she lived somewhere else. This is a pretty common story in many mediums and in real life as well (ranging from stories to outright examples of people that move from, say, The Deep South to one of the so-called Yankee states and being much happier, and vice-versa).
That's either bad luck (possible but getting unlikely for someone her age) or the result of an emotional malfunction that leads her to pursue people who aren't good for her. In the latter case, we're back to her needing the help of an expert in human behavior and in leading people to self-insight.
Oh, she definitely needs therapy for her issues. But then, so does Marten, so does Faye, so does Hannelore, so does... well, every major character in the comic. The difference is that Marten and Dora are the only two that (apparently) aren't (assuming Dora hasn't actually been seeing a therapist and we just haven't been given the benefit of those sessions).
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1) http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1395
In that comic Dora is specifically talking about the way Marten and Hannelore are discussing the band, not music in general so it's big leap to say they had little in common. The comic has shown many times Marten and Dora are capable of discussing music in general. Others gave examples of other ways Marten and Dora were compatible, like movies and video games, and just by their being friends before getting together shows that they didn't need mostly the same interests to get along. That's true of a lot of friendships and relationships.
It's very rare one partner is 100% responsible for a relationship ending but the explanation Dora gave at the time was her issues getting in the way of rationality. The circumstances of Marten's relationship with Faye before them getting together didn't help (despite constant reassurances there is nothing between them since Dora and Marten got together) but Dora's previous issues seem like she'd find a way to be insecure even when one is not there.
I could go on about other ways Dora's issues affect other parts of her life but I've joined this thread late and most people have said things I would have said. :mrgreen:
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1) http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1395
Dora admits that they don't have much in common.
Stoutfiles, you are seriously reaching.
She said that ONE aspect of Marten, which is a sizeable portion of him, is one she'll never be able to have a conversation with him about, and even if she did it'd be a girlfriend one.
How on EARTH did you take that to mean, and I quote, "they don't have much in common"? Face it, you're projecting, and at this point doing a poor job of it. If you have issues with Marten, just say it, but now you're just grasping at straws.
What really is your problem with this angle of the strip? What about Dora puts you so zealously on her "side" of things?
P.S. Link works now.
If you'd bother to look at this strip like it was a real relationship, you'd see that someone as one-dimensional as Marten would get old. He's a Nice Guy who puts on a happy face everyday and bows to whatever Dora wants. That never works. He has one interesting hobby and they can't talk about it...Hanners and co. get a slightly interesting Marten while Dora gets a manatee she can fuck. One aspect...it's his only aspect! Otherwise he's a guy who works at a meaningless job, and then goes to a coffee shop, a bakery, or a bar. I've never hid the fact that I have a big problem with Marten having any motivation to better himself, especially for a guy that never seems to be happy.
My problem is that anyone dating Marten would appear crazy as they'd want to escape the bleak purgatory he creates but would have no openings to do so. The whole time with him would be an unstimulating bore; witty comments and niceness only go so far. I want to see Dora date someone who's not affiliated with her brother and who's not our everyman.
Actually, I have bothered to look at this strip like a real relationship, which is what has kept me interested for as long as it has. I have actually paid more attention to this webcomic than any TV show in recent time. Marten is one-dimensional, and I'm not all that interested in him either, compared to his friends and how he interacts with them. But I don't go and make up stuff for my favourites like you apparently do (as pointed out in my previous reply).
You are doing nothing more right now than projecting yourself and your views on your favourite character (talk about something getting old!), and attempting to defend a point that Dora should or should not being going to therapy because she broke up with Marten.
If you had bothered to read the comic, you may have picked up that Dora has ALWAYS had issues. Pushing her to therapy was an event that came after the break-up, because her given reasons for the break-up were the culmination of all her issues affecting not only her life but those around her. THAT requires HELP, if you can't do it alone(and Dora has admitted that she tried to get over her issues; I'm not making this one up, she actually said those words). To give you an actual answer to your OP title: Dora needs therapy because her issues are holding her back in aspects of life that she has stated she wanted to change, which are affecting her in a detrimental way, and she cannot change on her own.
Besides, who are you to judge what relationships she can or cannot have, any more than her friends? Their every moments aren't displayed in this comic. Who are you to say you know better than those who spend all their time with her? If you had bothered to look at the strip like it was a real relationship, you'd know they're NEVER as simple as they seem from the outside, and a detached 3rd-person view never accounts for actual feelings.
My favorite character is Hannelore. Dora's alright, but she wouldn't make the top 5. I don't like Marten all that much, but I wasn't rooting fir their relationship to fail, more for Marten to show some ambition to do something with his life. Right now he's just moping around at the library for minimum wage.
I'm pushing my views? Isn't that the point? This whole topic is opinionated to begin with, there is no 100% right answer. I give my thoughts on what I think about the situation, and I'm sorry, but my mind will not change. I think the sample size of relationships is too small to determine that she has to get help, and even if I thought she did need help, it can only be suggested. It's Dora's decision to make, she's a big girl now with big girl feelings.
I never said she should dump Marten. I said she should do what she wants without her friends getting on her back. Who Dora dates isn't really any of their business.
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We know that Dora's been to at least one therapy session. She thought it was a failure because she talked about her brother the whole time. Jeph commented in the newspost that Dora was not being particularly self-aware there.
Is there argument, or consensus, that Dora herself thinks she needs therapy?
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We know that Dora's been to at least one therapy session. She thought it was a failure because she talked about her brother the whole time. Jeph commented in the newspost that Dora was not being particularly self-aware there.
Is there argument, or consensus, that Dora herself thinks she needs therapy?
Given how Dora reacted to it, with no follow-up asking her how therapy was going since then, would it be fair to say that question should be held off on until Jeph addresses whether or not she's still seeing her therapist?
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What actions of Marten led to his relationship with Dora ending?
I don't think it's fair to cite his job or hobbies (or lack thereof), he and Dora never had a fight about either of those things. If you do cite something like that, please link to a comic that shows this leading to instability in M-D relationship.
I'm not trying to say that Marten is some innocent victim here, but from my reading of the comic the breakup was entirely driven by Dora's issues, and nothing else.
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I have to agree with TRVA, you can't say it was a lack of hobbies or his job that led to the relationship failing. Coffee of Doom has virtually guarenteed that Dora has next to no time outside of the coffehouse. She works what? 60? 70 hour weeks? Thats the paid hours she probably does, because after that Dora probably has to concentrate on the roasting beans, sorting out the day's takings, ordering new stock, keeping the accounts in order, not to mention cleaning up or opening C.o.D.. I know no store manager or owner that pays themselves for that. Thats another three hours onto her day, at least. So, as a small business owner, Dora probably spends about 13 hours working on her business, with presumably 7 hours sleep, if she's lucky. That means that Dora has about 4 hours free each day. Barely enough time to have something to eat, shower, spend time with her friends or boyfriend, let alone have any hobbies.
If we look through the comic, Dora laments that she doesn't really share any interests with him, save for when they went to the S.H.R.A. concert, but beyond that, she doesn't make any effort to join in with the band, even if its just for support, or to get Marten to play the guitar for her. Meanwhile, we saw Marten get tickets to a horror film festival, pick up some Terry Pratchet books and take an interest when Dora was worried about C.o.D.
I'm not saying that Marten is a saint, far from it, but a relationship is about give and take, if neither share an interest/hobby, then they create an interest together. Did we see that between Dora and Marten? No, not really. But for the time being any relationship Dora enters will have four in there, Dora, whoever she is dating, C.o.D. and her issues.
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I do have to wonder if Dora may have been more secure about her relationship with Marten if he hadn't been sharing an apartment with the woman he admitted still having feelings for. If Marten and Faye had stopped living together when he and Dora started dating, at least one fight (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1741) between them (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1742) wouldn't have happened. Marten might (I repeat might) have been able to do a better job convincing Dora to get a handle on her insecurities then.
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I do have to wonder if Dora may have been more secure about her relationship with Marten if he hadn't been sharing an apartment with the woman he admitted still having feelings for. If Marten and Faye had stopped living together when he and Dora started dating, at least one fight (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1741) between them (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1742) wouldn't have happened. Marten might (I repeat might) have been able to do a better job convincing Dora to get a handle on her insecurities then.
That is a fair point, but within the context of the comic I don't think Marten moving out of the apartment right when he and Dora started dating would make sense.
Marten had just lost his job and probably didn't have enough money saved up to make a downpayment on a new place. He would also be leaving Faye in the lurch, as I'm sure her job doesn't pay well enough for her to afford the apartment by herself. While Marten might have moved in with Steve, where would Faye go? Hanner's probably couldn't handle it, and moving in with Dora would leave us with the original problem.
Also, Marten would have to know about Dora's trust issues and insecurities right at the beginning of the relationship, and there was really no way he could have.
Marten couldn't move in with Dora right away, as that would be a bit too fast for both of them.
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However, the move was the beginning of the end, in retrospect.
Originally, just like when they started going out, she initiated the idea, and she wanted him to move in with her. Faye was the one who was more pragmatic about it, saying it'd be easier for all of them, money-wise, if she moved in with them.
Unfortunately, Dora could never overcome her irrational fear that Marten still held a torch for Faye - and the no-pants moment linked previously caused that fear to come back full-blown after months/years/whatevers-in-QC-time of being suppressed.
And THAT, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is why Dora needs therapy.
</thread>
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However, the move was the beginning of the end, in retrospect.
Originally, just like when they started going out, she initiated the idea, and she wanted him to move in with her. Faye was the one who was more pragmatic about it, saying it'd be easier for all of them, money-wise, if she moved in with them.
Unfortunately, Dora could never overcome her irrational fear that Marten still held a torch for Faye - and the no-pants moment linked previously caused that fear to come back full-blown after months/years/whatevers-in-QC-time of being suppressed.
And THAT, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is why Dora needs therapy.
</thread>
The fear isn't irrational, if right now Faye dumped Angus and said she loved Marten, he'd be all over her. Dora liked Marten but questioned Martens commitment when he liked Faye at the time and just goes with things. It was doomed from the start.
And THAT, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is why we can't come into threads and declare our opinions the only valid ones, and then try to kill any follow up with silly tags.
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if right now Faye dumped Angus and said she loved Marten, he'd be all over her.
That is your opinion right there, not fact. My own view is that he is past that romantic feeling, Faye is his best friend, and it would take a time to rebuild it. Jeph has said something similar, and I guess one thing we can all agree (at least) is that JEPH KNOWS.
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However, the move was the beginning of the end, in retrospect.
Originally, just like when they started going out, she initiated the idea, and she wanted him to move in with her. Faye was the one who was more pragmatic about it, saying it'd be easier for all of them, money-wise, if she moved in with them.
Unfortunately, Dora could never overcome her irrational fear that Marten still held a torch for Faye - and the no-pants moment linked previously caused that fear to come back full-blown after months/years/whatevers-in-QC-time of being suppressed.
And THAT, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is why Dora needs therapy.
</thread>
The fear isn't irrational, if right now Faye dumped Angus and said she loved Marten, he'd be all over her. Dora liked Marten but questioned Martens commitment when he liked Faye at the time and just goes with things. It was doomed from the start.
And THAT, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is why we can't come into threads and declare our opinions the only valid ones, and then try to kill any follow up with silly tags.
Pot, kettle, black. This thread is like a game of rhetorical whack-a-mole.
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However, the move was the beginning of the end, in retrospect.
Originally, just like when they started going out, she initiated the idea, and she wanted him to move in with her. Faye was the one who was more pragmatic about it, saying it'd be easier for all of them, money-wise, if she moved in with them.
Unfortunately, Dora could never overcome her irrational fear that Marten still held a torch for Faye - and the no-pants moment linked previously caused that fear to come back full-blown after months/years/whatevers-in-QC-time of being suppressed.
And THAT, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is why Dora needs therapy.
</thread>
The fear isn't irrational, if right now Faye dumped Angus and said she loved Marten, he'd be all over her. Dora liked Marten but questioned Martens commitment when he liked Faye at the time and just goes with things. It was doomed from the start.
And THAT, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is why we can't come into threads and declare our opinions the only valid ones, and then try to kill any follow up with silly tags.
Objection, assumes facts not in evidence. If Faye did that Marten would more likely assume she was either fucking with him or she was suffering some kind of psychotic break or was under duress.
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<MODERATOR>
What is wrong with parts of this thread is the too free assertion of opinions as absolutes. All we actually know about the fictional world we discuss here is the actual content of the strips, and a selection of remarks by Jeph in the comments and elsewhere. Everything else we say about the strip is conjecture, and we cannot appropriately say that people are wrong to disagree with us if we cannot quote one of those sources to demonstrate it.
As for discussion of things beyond the strip, like the nature or usefulness of therapy/counselling, or other matters of that sort, please try not to be too dogmatic unless you can again quote suitable authority, or call on persuasive personal experience. Second-hand anecdotes are not enough.
Also remember that this forum is occupied by people (a) from many different countries (so words and concepts in a puzzling post might not mean what you think), and (b) from many stages of life (the range of ages of people who contribute here runs from 17 years or less up to 70 years).
That said, the present discussion has managed to remain pretty polite (which in past times it might not have done), and I'd like to thank everyone for that. But some attention to the matters I've laid out here might make it easier.
</MODERATOR>
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What is wrong with parts of this thread is the too free assertion of opinions as absolutes. All we actually know about the fictional world we discuss here is the actual content of the strips, and a selection of remarks by Jeph in the comments and elsewhere. Everything else we say about the strip is conjecture, and we cannot appropriately say that people are wrong to disagree with us if we cannot quote one of those sources to demonstrate it.
Thats pretty much been my point the last few posts I've made. All we saw were opinions on why Dora should not have been in therapy, while others who believed she should be, made the effort to trawl through the archives looking for the comics that confirmed that Dora needed to speak to a professional.
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It seems that everyone who has put forth why Dora should be in therapy has given the same reasons:
1. Dora has severe insecurities and trust issues surrounding her relationship with her brother Sven
2. Dora has severe insecurities and trust issues surrounding her ability to sustain a healthy romantic relationship.
3. Dora has admitted that these issues interfere with her romantic goals in a negative sense.
Everyone who has put forth that Dora doesn't need therapy is asserting that the reasons Dora doesn't need therapy are:
1. Dora's work related life is in good order, and as long as her issues don't affect her career she has a healthy outlook.
2. Dora's relationship centered issues are justified because of a previous romantic relationship between Marten and Faye.
3. Dora's insecurities and trust issues are a part of her core personality and to try to change those would alter Dora's character in a needlessly drastic way.
I'm just trying to summarize both sides of the discussion. I think that the original topic question has been answered numerous times, with different people rephrasing similar ideas.
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It seems that everyone who has put forth why Dora should be in therapy has given the same reasons:
1. Dora has severe insecurities and trust issues surrounding her relationship with her brother Sven
2. Dora has severe insecurities and trust issues surrounding her ability to sustain a healthy romantic relationship.
3. Dora has admitted that these issues interfere with her romantic goals in a negative sense.
Everyone who has put forth that Dora doesn't need therapy is asserting that the reasons Dora doesn't need therapy are:
1. Dora's work related life is in good order, and as long as her issues don't affect her career she has a healthy outlook.
2. Dora's insecurities and trust issues are a part of her core personality and to try to change those would alter Dora's character in a needlessly drastic way.
Everyone who has put forth concepts that have nothing to do with whether Dora needs therapy or not:
1. Dora's relationship centered issues specifically with regard to Marten are justified because of a previous romantic relationship between Marten and Faye.
I'm just trying to summarize both sides of the discussion. I think that the original topic question has been answered numerous times, with different people rephrasing similar ideas.
Fixed that for you.
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However, the move was the beginning of the end, in retrospect.
Originally, just like when they started going out, she initiated the idea, and she wanted him to move in with her. Faye was the one who was more pragmatic about it, saying it'd be easier for all of them, money-wise, if she moved in with them.
Unfortunately, Dora could never overcome her irrational fear that Marten still held a torch for Faye - and the no-pants moment linked previously caused that fear to come back full-blown after months/years/whatevers-in-QC-time of being suppressed.
And THAT, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is why Dora needs therapy.
</thread>
The fear isn't irrational, if right now Faye dumped Angus and said she loved Marten, he'd be all over her. Dora liked Marten but questioned Martens commitment when he liked Faye at the time and just goes with things. It was doomed from the start.
And THAT, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is why we can't come into threads and declare our opinions the only valid ones, and then try to kill any follow up with silly tags.
Pot, kettle, black. This thread is like a game of rhetorical whack-a-mole.
I state my opinions but do not try to end conversation with an "I'm right, and let's end the thread now" tag. Like I said before, this is an opinionated topic as therapy isn't as cut and dry as say, my needing to breathe air. If someone wants to live they need oxygen, but if someone has problems they don't necessarily need therapy. They might solve their problems on their own, given some time. Sure, Dora could use therapy like the whole QC cast could use therapy. But at this current juncture, do I think she needs it? Neh, just some more time. Looks like she's even getting along with Sven too for helping out after the breakup. I think shell be ok, but that's just my opinion, I'm not saying my opinion is the right one but I will defend it the best I can.
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Except you've ignored posts and reasonable explainations of why she should see someone, all the while espousing your belief that its rubbish and that we wish Dora's character to be changed into something else. We don't.
Lets look at a similar storyline done in the comic, when Dora and Marten were beginning to notice that Faye was drinking to excess, a lot. Did they have any right as her friends to advise her to seek help, to see someone? Thats what we've seen here. One of the cast was (or still is) on a self-destructive route, that one of their friends noticed, because they too, were on that path. Look at Faye since she began seeing Doctor Corinne, and how far she has developed as a character. Thats what the therapy storyline leads to, character development, which for any story is essential. Thats what we want with Dora, character development, otherwise, what do we have left? A once popular character stagnating, becoming less and less popular to the point where they are eventually packed onto a bus and sent off, or worse, killed off.
Thats the reason why we feel Dora should be in therapy, to develop her character, and to also learn more about her past.
You're entitled to your opinion of course, but to ignore others for the sake of your own is both foolish, and likely to get you into trouble in any stage of your life.
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I agree that Dora needs therapy, but not because she's planning to go on a date with Jim (that is the most normal decision she's made in a long time).
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Except you've ignored posts and reasonable explainations of why she should see someone, all the while espousing your belief that its rubbish and that we wish Dora's character to be changed into something else. We don't.
Lets look at a similar storyline done in the comic, when Dora and Marten were beginning to notice that Faye was drinking to excess, a lot. Did they have any right as her friends to advise her to seek help, to see someone? Thats what we've seen her. One of the cast was (or still is) on a self-destructive route, that one of their friends noticed, because they too, were on that path. Look at Faye since she began seeing Doctor Corinne, and how far she has developed as a character. Thats what the therapy storyline leads to, character development, which for any story is essential. Thats what we want with Dora, character development, otherwise, what do we have left? A once popular character stagnating, becoming less and less popular to the point where they are eventually packed onto a bus and sent off, or worse, killed off.
Thats the reason why we feel Dora should be in therapy, to develop her character, and to also learn more about her past.
You're entitled to your opinion of course, but to ignore others for the sake of your own is both foolish, and likely to get you into trouble in any stage of your life.
How am I ignoring posts? I read them and respond with my opinion which differs from yours. I acknowledge, I just don't agree as this is an opinionated topic as I've said many times.
You basically just said that because I dont agree with your logic that I'm foolish and will get into trouble at some stage in my life. Huh? Who is we in your statement...who all do you speak for?
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How am I ignoring posts? I read them and respond with my opinion which differs from yours. I acknowledge, I just don't agree as this is an opinionated topic as I've said many times.
You basically just said that because I dont agree with your logic that I'm foolish and will get into trouble at some stage in my life. Huh? Who is we in your statement...who all do you speak for?
You ignored plenty of posts. Your opinion isn't often presented as opinion, and you twist what the characters say (even going so far as to state that they said things they didn't), and simply having a differing opinion doesn't make a topic "opinionated."
TheEvilDog also never said that you're foolish because your opinions differ, he said ignoring the opinion of others (and I assume he means those, like throughout this thread, who have something material to back up their opinion) is foolish. Quite different statements.
By the way, if I may be so bold, "we" happens to be most of the people in this thread. You need only re-read it to understand that.
I'll post a more detailed reply in response to your assertions when I have the time to reference a few things.
Edit: In the spirit of not sounding like I'm trying to "correct" people rather than information, as it may unintentionally come across that way, that response won't be coming. Besides, I think it's been made clear it doesn't really matter one way or the other. :P
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... and to also learn more about her past.
Yes, please! It's far from clear that what we've heard about her past is enough to account for her current issues. There may be something interesting waiting to be discovered.
(moderator)
This thread is not for correcting each other's problems. There have been two moderator harrumphs already. Don't be like this guy: xkcd.com/386/
(/moderator)
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@Is it cold in here?
The 18th decimal of pi in your text is wrong. It should be ...2384626433... I KNOW
Edit: What a nice round number! :angel:
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@Is it cold in here? The 18th decimal of pi in your text is wrong. It should be ...2384626433...
Hey, its not A Perfect Circle.
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So I should just be content to answer his question with a quiet 'No'?
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So I should just be content to answer his question with a quiet 'No'?
(sigh) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Perfect_Circle)
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Sorry. A long time ago Sam the Eagle taught me that getting a pop culture reference doesn't entitle anyone to feel smart. I also took the logical next step and decided that not getting a pop culture reference entitles me to feel smart. Not book smart, but street smart anyway.
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Sorry. A long time ago Sam the Eagle taught me that getting a pop culture reference doesn't entitle anyone to feel smart. I also took the logical next step and decided that not getting a pop culture reference entitles me to feel smart. Not book smart, but street smart anyway.
All I heard was..... :wink:
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Radio Ga Ga?
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There have been two moderator harrumphs already.
And maybe third strike is out?
Please don't push us, guys.
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I swear it's the full moon...
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I blame the eclipse...
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You ignored plenty of posts. Your opinion isn't often presented as opinion, and you twist what the characters say (even going so far as to state that they said things they didn't), and simply having a differing opinion doesn't make a topic "opinionated."
Only because it gets tiring repeating the same points. I'll sum them up.
1) Yes, Dora had bad relationships in the past. Who hasn't? As for Sven, they appear to be getting along much better as Sven has begun to change his ways. Without therapy, mind you.
2) I ignore Dora's problems with Marten because I thought the relationship was doomed from the start, for reasons I've posted many times. If you don't agree with them, then ok.
So we'll just see how she does with Jim. If she flips out for no reason, then I'd be more inclined to shift the other way. So far though, Marten and some off-screen relationships aren't enough evidence for me to say she can't go on without therapy. I would say I've done a better job of expressing my thoughts as opinions then some of the return opinions I've gotten.
A topic is "opinionated" when it involves something personal such as therapy. There may be a better way to lean on the issue, but there is no correct answer.
TheEvilDog also never said that you're foolish because your opinions differ, he said ignoring the opinion of others (and I assume he means those, like throughout this thread, who have something material to back up their opinion) is foolish. Quite different statements.
I have acknowledged all opinions. I just don't agree with them regarding her needing therapy. Most of her issues are justified, and the others don't add up enough to warrant her being pushed into therapy. Sorry, that's how I feel.
By the way, if I may be so bold, "we" happens to be most of the people in this thread. You need only re-read it to understand that.
I wasn't aware that everyone who disagreed with Dora needing therapy also agreed that we want to learn more about her past. Maybe some people want her to get therapy but off screen as they don't like her much? I just don't think using 'we' is a good word to use if you branch off to other opinions.
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I'm just curious, not trying to be leading - what do you personally feel are good reasons for a person to go into therapy?
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I'm just curious, not trying to be leading - what do you personally feel are good reasons for a person to go into therapy?
Therapy is so broad that any negative trait, event, etc. can be worked out with therapy. I know people that went just because they get so many free sessions a year for work. I have nothing against therapy.
However, if you don't want to go, is it worth it? Dora has little free time, probably not a ton of money, and doesn't think very highly of therapy. Is it worth her time and money to go to a therapist if she won't give it her full effort? She's ready for a therapist when she wants to be; otherwise, it'll be a waste of time/money.
If her problems ever got to the point where she isn't living her life anymore (going to work, meeting new people, seeing her friends) then I lean more towards her getting some help. I don't see that happening though, everyone has problems and the majority of us work through them without the help of therapy. I'd put Dora in the majority. That said, if she deicded she was all for therapy and kept going, then more power to her. It's a personal decision.
The main issue I've had with all this is Dora feels like she's being pushed into it. Even at work she's being bugged about it. Dora could just as easily turn around and start pointing out the rest of the QC cast and their crippling issues. Most of them have issues worse than Dora but they aren't being bugged. It's almost like Dora is being picked on. It's just rude. I don't think anyone here, after a breakup, would want to be told you need therapy for breaking up with someone, and then bugged constantly about it. That's just how I feel. Faye is very pushy most of the time; I'd tell her to back off.
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I actually had decided against bringing up a point-by-point post before, but I want to be clear here.
1) Yes, Dora had bad relationships in the past. Who hasn't? As for Sven, they appear to be getting along much better as Sven has begun to change his ways. Without therapy, mind you.
Dora's relationships aren't the total sum of why those of us agree that she could use therapy (and I say "agree" because she has stated intentions of dealing with her issues), so continuing to go at the relationship level is rather moot at this point.
2) I ignore Dora's problems with Marten because I thought the relationship was doomed from the start, for reasons I've posted many times. If you don't agree with them, then ok.
My apologies if I'm misunderstanding, but what I gathered from your original post and many that followed is that you were actually pretty focused on Dora's problems with Marten, for which you supplied reasons that could not be fully substantiated in the comics (and some that were conjecture and supposition). I have no opinion as to whether or not Dora and Marten were doomed or not, as relationships (particularly fictitious ones) tend to be rather fluid and biased to the direction the author intends. What I read from your posts was quite the opposite of you ignoring her problems with Marten. Please correct me if I am wrong on this matter.
So we'll just see how she does with Jim. If she flips out for no reason, then I'd be more inclined to shift the other way. So far though, Marten and some off-screen relationships aren't enough evidence for me to say she can't go on without therapy. I would say I've done a better job of expressing my thoughts as opinions then some of the return opinions I've gotten.
I'm afraid I must disagree here, as once again I'll state that Dora's requirement(?) for therapy does not hinge on just this one aspect of her. I will also (respectfully) disagree with your assessment of the presentations of your side of the argument on the basis of a lack of supporting links or direct quotes. Others have supplied such for their arguments.
A topic is "opinionated" when it involves something personal such as therapy. There may be a better way to lean on the issue, but there is no correct answer.
While both the methods and the outcomes of therapy may be personalized and differ from person to person, as a legitimate medical practice it does have some difinitve right and wrong aspects. As someone who has had therapy for a good portion of his early 20's, I can easily tell you that there are distinct benefits, even for the small things in life, that such treatment can grant. They are quantifiable and visible. This is not an opinion; it is documented, which is why we have professions such as Psychologists, Psychiatrists, and Counsellors.
I just don't agree with them regarding her needing therapy. Most of her issues are justified, and the others don't add up enough to warrant her being pushed into therapy. Sorry, that's how I feel.
Judging a person by your standards as to whether or not that person needs or doesn't need to go could just as easily be applied to Faye as it could to you; I agree, she needs to make her own decision. In therapy, the only way a person can get better is if they want to get better.
Such as what she says here.
http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1357
Along with the desire to get better, exemplified here.
http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1467
So while Dora may be pushed by Faye from time to time, it's what Faye does and they have been getting along that way since the beginning of the comic, presumably even before that. Faye DOES have experience with it, and Dora has indeed expressed the desire to go and fix her issues. If she has a relationship, with ANYONE, and she brings in baggage from her past that she, in all honesty, doesn't want to bring but can't find a way to not bring it in, she should by all means consider therapy. Faye knows this, has spoken to her about this, and is actually being a good friend in pushing her. Besides that, strip 1946 hardly has Faye "pushing" her, and even if someone would take it that way Dora handled it well - just like she has most every suggestion Faye has made.
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Let me just preface this by saying that I am neither on the "Dora definitely needs therapy" side or the "Dora definitely does not need therapy" side. I do, however, disagree with this point of stoutfiles'.
1) Yes, Dora had bad relationships in the past. Who hasn't?
There is a difference between a bad relationship and an abusive relationship. From what Sven says here (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1746 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1746)) it sounds to me like many of Dora's previous relationships were borderline abusive at least. It may be normal to have a few bad relationships, I don't know. I do not believe it is normal to have several (I'd say three or more, or Marten would have said, "She's said both of her old boyfriends were assholes" rather than "all" in that strip) really bad/possibly abusive relationships, although perhaps I am just being an idealist when I say that.
I've never posted before, and am unlikely to do so again any time soon, but I do think that this needed to be pointed out.
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Good first post. Welcome, new person!
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I'm just curious, not trying to be leading - what do you personally feel are good reasons for a person to go into therapy?
If there is something happening in your life that you feel you cannot deal with using the support system or other people you trust, or it is something that they (or yourself) feel is beyond their ability to deal with the problem - counseling and/or therapy might be a good option.
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I was actually directing that question to stoutfiles at the time (I guess I should have quoted the sentence that made me think to ask it), but you got me thinking - we all have different ideas of why someone needs therapy to begin with, and that makes this a difficult topic from the start. Those differing opinions most likely stem from the fact that we've all had very different experiences with therapy - some of us have been through it for years, some maybe went to a session or two with a bad counselor and felt it unnecessary to continue, some have even been the ones doing the counseling. Psychology and therapy have often been touted as a sort of pseudoscience and have gotten a bad rap so this is already tricky ground. Therapy is NOT as clear-cut as, say, someone cutting their finger and needing ointment and a bandage, and then seeing that the ointment helped heal the finger.
As I mentioned a few days ago, depression is not the only reason someone needs therapy. Outward symptoms aren't enough to determine if someone needs it - often, people with problems that could be helped by counseling have learned to hide those symptoms. And often, this is because someone told them they need counseling and they take that as an affront when it's really not. Many people see it as someone telling them, "There's something wrong with you," when really they are only saying, "You don't seem happy with the way you act in this type of situation; I think counseling would get you to understand why you react in that way."
I think several people in this thread are arguing very different things, though, and some people have modified their original arguments to accommodate for that. We've talked about many points, from "Does Dora need therapy" to "Is it appropriate for her friends to suggest therapy". But guess what - that's okay. The point of discussion is to learn about an issue, not to prove your point beyond a shadow of a doubt. We all tend to have this "need" to be right and not admit that we hadn't seen another side of a debate that changes our mind about the topic at hand. It's okay to concede a point occasionally.
But please, everyone, keep in mind that everyone has had different experiences with therapy - good, bad, none at all - and that's obviously going to affect their opinion on whether or not it's a viable option (for Dora, or for anyone). Whether they can dig up examples to support their case is not even the question here.
Personally, I think counseling would be beneficial to Dora. I can also see the point that if she is not ready for it, it may not do any good. She has to be on board either way - if she's going to go, it has to be because SHE wants to work through her problems. If she's not going to go, then she either needs to start working on her problems herself, or accept that she may do this again to another "good guy" (compared to her previous relationships, as far as we know). And if she does it to someone else, she needs to accept the consequences and once again ask herself if it's worth not working through them.
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Theres a "joke" from Watchmen which kinda sums up the need for why people might need to talk to someone, to seek help.
"Man goes to doctor. Says he's depressed. Says life is harsh and cruel. Says he feels all alone in a threatening world. Doctor says, "Treatment is simple. The great clown Pagliacci is in town tonight. Go see him. That should pick you up." Man bursts into tears. Says, "But doctor... I am Pagliacci.""
Just because the clown is laughing, doesn't mean the man behind the make-up is.
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It's older than Watchmen and the meaning is deeper -- humor often hides (or is rooted in) the deepest sadness or pain -- but your point is taken. Kinda goes along with one stereotype ( justified or not) of Russians -- melancholy is supposed to part of the mental makeup, but they're the most likely to make a point by telling a joke - - generally a short, pithy one.
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It's older than Watchmen and the meaning is deeper -- humor often hides (or is rooted in) the deepest sadness or pain -- but your point is taken. Kinda goes along with one stereotype ( justified or not) of Russians -- melancholy is supposed to part of the mental makeup, but they're the most likely to make a point by telling a joke - - generally a short, pithy one.
Oh I know the joke is far older, I simply chose that version of it because of the added irony that the character telling it is also the character who needs help the most.
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I'll acknowledge (if I haven't already) that I'm a bit biased, since I'm a counselor, and went through years of training and classwork towards becoming one. And I'll also admit that there's no simple reason for "why you should go into therapy", nor is there ever a "simple outcome" to therapy. Some people won't get anything from therapy, whereas others will rely heavily on it.
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I just don't agree with them regarding her needing therapy. Most of her issues are justified, and the others don't add up enough to warrant her being pushed into therapy. Sorry, that's how I feel.
Judging a person by your standards as to whether or not that person needs or doesn't need to go could just as easily be applied to Faye as it could to you; I agree, she needs to make her own decision. In therapy, the only way a person can get better is if they want to get better.
Such as what she says here.
http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1357
I was searching for such a long time for that strip to post it here, thank you.
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That's funny - I had forgotten about her saying she wanted to work out her "sibling-rivalry issues"... and then when she finally goes, she can't understand why that's all they talked about :lol:
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That comic also proves that she's not really being forced to go to therapy... She wants help from some proffesional person.