THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)
Comic Discussion => QUESTIONABLE CONTENT => Topic started by: Method of Madness on 08 Jan 2012, 19:46
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Fillin' in for J-dubs this week. Hope everything's ok, man. Anyway, should be an interesting set of comics! As for option #4, had anyone brought that up yet? Because holy shit, that just came to mind and it was just...whoa. :psyduck:
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Momo should look into Direct Deposit.
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Must be the F.I.C.A. deductions. :psyduck:
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Do any companies still cut paper checks, or has everything gone direct deposit/digital?
Wtf, red text already?? Go to bed, people! Don't you have jobs or school you need sleep for? :-P
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Do any companies still cut paper checks, or has everything gone direct deposit/digital?
Quite a few, especially the smaller ones. It wasn't until very recently that the company I work for (37,000 employees) switched over to a digital-only system. And of course there are situations where certain employees do need that physical paperwork (income verification, government SSI and such).
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Even in a direct deposit situation, you still get the earnings statement, AKA the check stub.
Also, this is Momo's first check, and it may take a week or two to set up direct deposit.
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It's no big deal, but for future reference it's possible to add a poll to a thread that didn't have one to start with, by asking a moderator.
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Momo no like IRS! Momo smash!
Yes, yes. We all wish we could smash the IRS Momo. Get in line.
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Dawwww.
Momo in cute mode.
Hmmmmm
There could be something metaphorical with it ripping in half.
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momo's so cute its ok its not like its actual money
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in before people saying "what about direct deposit"
oops. dern
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Hmmmmm
There could be something metaphorical with it ripping in half.
Tai has hitherto unmentioned voodoo powers without realizing it (I would insert a TVTropes link, but I cannot find the appropriate one) and the paycheck accidentally represents Marten's relationship with Padma. However, the fact that she can easily print another one hints at the fact that Marten will get better and find a new relationship. It also indicates that his relationship is not unique, but easily replaced, although it still has a personal touch, represented by Tai's signature on the check.
Damn, I feel like in my literature lessons all over again. Writing shit I don't believe because it sounds somewhat good and is expected.
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Do any companies still cut paper checks, or has everything gone direct deposit/digital?
Most state government business is done with paper checks.
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Even in a direct deposit situation, you still get the earnings statement, AKA the check stub.
It depends. We don't get a "stub" on paper unless we specifically request it. They're available, yes, but we don't get anything sent out to us by mail anymore.
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We have an ESS (Emplyee Self-Service) website where you can print off your stubs if you need them.
Do robots get Social Security and Medicare taken out?
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My shop is a part of a franchise but small enough that I get paid cash in hand.
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Love Momo's hair in this. Another example of hair being an expressive feature in the comic. :)
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oh my dear lord jesus almighty can this comic go back to being witty
p l e a s e
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Still remember my first paycheque.
"Alright - everyone line up in alphabetical order - have your ID cards out.
When you are called up, march to the tyable, stop two paces in front, come to attention and salute.
Take one pace forward, present your ID card to the clerk.
The officer will then count your money out.
Once he's done, sign the line and take the money.
Take one pace back. Salute.
Execute a left turn and march off the parade.
Go see the canteen and settle your bill.
And yes, the MPs in behind the table have live ammunition in their SMGs"
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Fillin' in for J-dubs this week. Hope everything's ok, man. Anyway, should be an interesting set of comics! As for option #4, had anyone brought that up yet? Because holy shit, that just came to mind and it was just...whoa. :psyduck:
Thanks for the assist, MOM and Mr. Hodges. Had a little... "issue"... at work.
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Do any companies still cut paper checks, or has everything gone direct deposit/digital?
Most state government business is done with paper checks.
No it isn't. I have direct deposit for my payroll checks.
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I thought of putting it there, too, but I'm still messing around
with in a big hole in my sidewalk.
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It seems unlikely to me that Tai would have the ability to print checks. I could see her calling the payroll office and asking for a new check, however.
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For awhile I had a payroll package that let me print checks.
It consisted of check-blanks with the MICR-line and bank imprints, and a line to sign along with the name of my company. The dollar amount would be added by the printer, and all the required info printed on the stub.
I use a service now, it's much easier than dealing with it myself. Submit the hours by email, make sure the proper amount of money is in the account and checks arrive on Thursday. :)
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So, I know QC time does not go by at the same speed as OUR time, or even at a consistent speed. But is payday in QC world on Monday? Or do you think it's Friday there? And if it's Friday, is it last Friday or this coming Friday? Or some other Friday?
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We've just seen Marten go through at least a week, and it was a while ago that he introduced Momo to the library. So she has been at the library for well over a week. Either she is being paid at the end of a month of work (and many places pay on some particular date, which could be any day), or more likely she is getting pay pro rata for the part of the month she worked (from her starting date to the end of the month).
It's a bit surprising, though, that she hasn't calibrated the sensors controlling her paper-tearing strength yet, given that she is now working with books!
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Do any companies still cut paper checks, or has everything gone direct deposit/digital?
Wtf, red text already?? Go to bed, people! Don't you have jobs or school you need sleep for? :-P
To be fair I'm stationed in Japan so my hours are all messed up :D
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Well, I work for my college as a student employee, and we get two paychecks per semester--one at the midway point and one at the end. If it works the same way in the world of QC (which I doubt), then that would mean that there's some kind of time jump, and she's got half her salary for the semester. I do think it's unlikely, but I figured I'd present another time option just to get people discussing further. :mrgreen:
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With my college job, we got paid every two weeks. However, the pay period was two weeks, and you get paid for that pay period the day the next one ends, so if you started at the beginning of a pay period, it could be nearly a month to your first paycheck.
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Even in a direct deposit situation, you still get the earnings statement, AKA the check stub.
I haven't gotten paper stubs at my job for over a year. Wal-mart is completely paperless now, no paper checks or paper stubs, except for new employees, because direct deposit takes a week to go through. If you don't have a bank account, you get a Wal-mart money-card.
It seems as though more and more places are going completely paperless. But I know a few people who still get paper checks and/or stubs.
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I am retired, and all of our (mine and my wife's) regular income is direct deposited. The only paper checks I get are rebates from buying equipment or appliances.
When I was still employed, all of our regular income was direct deposited.
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I'm a substitute teacher, I get a check in the mail twice a month. I probably could get direct deposit, but as strange as that might sound, I don't really want to.
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The libraries will be the last to go completely paperless.
Obviously.
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I still don't get how libraries can "lend" e-books. Sure, there's DRM attached, but that's easily removed.
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I've just noticed that Momo seems to have lost her teeth. They were certainly visible back when her new chassis was first introduced (see panel 2 here (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2001), and in the strip where she beats up Pintsize (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2002), but in the last couple of strips her mouth is just a pink slot.
I googled ika hime harem fighter in case it was a real thing. I got no hits, but Google suggested that I might have intended to search for ikea home harem fighter (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ika+hime+harem+fighter), which casts an odd light on Sweden...
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Yeah, the lack of teeth looks kind of weird.
Also, hopefully you guys wont think I'm butthurt, pissed off or anything... This is just an observation.
I felt that Marigold was kind of like... I dunno, rude in the third panel.
I mean, did Marigold REALLY expect that she would get all the debt paid immediately? It feels kind of selfish to me because Momo has barely any selections of clothes and it's still HER money. Also... wouldn't that game count as a part of the pay back? It's not like Mari would do anything too productive with the money besides buying more anime and manga stuff.
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I had to grin at that panel! I'd half-hoped that my stepson might use some of his first paycheque to contribute to the household bills for a change. Instead, it went in it's entirety on a very shiny new phone for his girlfriend. In all honesty I couldn't blame the guy for treating her to a new phone but, dear God, was it a struggle to hold my tongue when I was completely broke myself! Marigold wouldn't have learnt stuff like that yet.
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It's also kinda hypocritical of Mari to be criticising Momo for not being responsible, when she's basically been holding the responsibility fort for both of them since we've met them.
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Well, I work for my college as a student employee, and we get two paychecks per semester--one at the midway point and one at the end. If it works the same way in the world of QC (which I doubt), then that would mean that there's some kind of time jump, and she's got half her salary for the semester. I do think it's unlikely, but I figured I'd present another time option just to get people discussing further. :mrgreen:
I remeber how the reserves used to be paid - one month in arrears at the end of the month. We used to get September's pay at the end of October as an example. Then in the summer we'd get paid twice a month - in cash.
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First paychecks usually go to work clothes.
Or food...
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Well, she DID cover clothes, since she doesn't have work-clothes. So I see no problem with her buying clothes.
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"So that's why I'm sleeping on the couch."
"Gross."
Am I the only one who is slightly off-put by this line of conversation?
Why is it gross that Angus is sleeping on a couch?
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I googled ika hime harem fighter in case it was a real thing. I got no hits, but Google suggested that I might have intended to search for ikea home harem fighter (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ika+hime+harem+fighter), which casts an odd light on Sweden...
That would certainly be an innovative way of using their pictures of home layouts and also advertising. I can see that actually working pretty well. And then you could throw items of furniture for more damage, and it would name them as they hit...
Why is it gross that Angus is sleeping on a couch?
Presumably he's relating this story. (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2095)
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Ah, the "my-first-paycheck"-shopping spree. I still remember mine... it mostly went into a new graphics card for my computer. =)
And also I am assuming that "Ika Hime Harem Fighter" is an homage to the "Dead or Alive" franchise where you're never quite certain wether you're fighting in a porno or making a porno about fighting...
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I've just noticed that Momo seems to have lost her teeth. They were certainly visible back when her new chassis was first introduced (see panel 2 here (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2001), and in the strip where she beats up Pintsize (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2002), but in the last couple of strips her mouth is just a pink slot.
I agree. Her mouth looked fine when I first saw it, but since you pointed this out I think it's a little odd looking. Also - and maybe this has been covered but I missed it, in which case I apologize - her, uh, hair has gotten shorter. As the ponytails themselves are also fuller, maybe she's just wearing them differently and it's the same amount of "hair," but I wouldn't think that she would be able to do even that. Considering, you know. Robot hair.
As for the responsibility argument, I think that Marigold was just speaking her mind at the time. It wasn't very polite, because it IS Momo's money, but I think they have a close enough relationship that it's okay. If she kept harping about it, then that would be one thing. But she said it, they moved on, they're playing video games now. Any potential crisis has been averted.
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I definitely think Mari got over it quicker because of the nature of the purchases but I agree with those who said she was a bit harsh. She could have said something along the lines of "good for you, first paycheck ever! you can start paying me back with the next check." But then again, this is Marigold we're talking about. I think we sometimes forget that she's a bit...socially inept.
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The social protocol database should have something in it about paying back debts.
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So, I know QC time does not go by at the same speed as OUR time, or even at a consistent speed. But is payday in QC world on Monday? Or do you think it's Friday there? And if it's Friday, is it last Friday or this coming Friday? Or some other Friday?
She could get paid on the 1st and 15th (or the 15th and 31st). In that case, payday wouldn't necessarily be on Friday.
For example, I get paid once a month, at the end of the month. It is whatever day happens to be the end of the month (or the day before, sometimes).
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Given that I recently started work in November, I know exactly how Momo felt when she got that paycheck >_>
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"So that's why I'm sleeping on the couch."
"Gross."
Am I the only one who is slightly off-put by this line of conversation?
Why is it gross that Angus is sleeping on a couch?
I think "Gross" is referring to Faye being sick. Plus Angus' comment is, "...And that's why I was sleepin' on the couch."
I've just noticed that Momo seems to have lost her teeth. They were certainly visible back when her new chassis was first introduced (see panel 2 here (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2001), and in the strip where she beats up Pintsize (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2002), but in the last couple of strips her mouth is just a pink slot.
I hadn't noticed the lack of teeth but I knew something about Momo's appearance yesterday was bugging me. Maybe it's another touch by Jeph to distinguish her from humans?
I agree. Her mouth looked fine when I first saw it, but since you pointed this out I think it's a little odd looking. Also - and maybe this has been covered but I missed it, in which case I apologize - her, uh, hair has gotten shorter. As the ponytails themselves are also fuller, maybe she's just wearing them differently and it's the same amount of "hair," but I wouldn't think that she would be able to do even that. Considering, you know. Robot hair.
Her hair seems shorter even from a few comics ago. (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2092) Like you said I think it could be the way she's wearing them. They seem a little higher up at the top in the last panel but not so much the others. They do change a lot to suit her expression.
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On Mari's comment, I'm not sure what to think. To me she has a pretty neutral stance and expression so while a poorly thought out comment, I don't think it was meant to be a criticism. Just a genuine wonder in that, "You said you were going to do this but now you've done a different thing." The new game probably helped a lot too. I think as long as she's not struggling for money, she wouldn't genuinely be worried about Momo paying her back quickly any way. Also Momo let the comment roll off her easily once Mari let it go.
I wonder if any of Momo's pay is going to go to the keeping of the apartment or any shared-costs like that?
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I have no issue with it MariBear. After all, she has been using clothes cast off/borrowed from Hannelore.
GAME TIME!!
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Okay, so what exactly is wrong with "if she wants to hear from me she'll call"? Isn't that kind of... proper?
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I went with option C (actually guessing that her grandmother is alive but got worse, and Padma had to leave immediately). This was too good to last, so the comic is overdue for a depressing development.
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Okay, so what exactly is wrong with "if she wants to hear from me she'll call"? Isn't that kind of... proper?
Who really knows? :-P Poor Marten. He's knee-deep in the sinkhole between "too creepy" and "not forward enough".
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He should go down to the shop, not make a scene, and ask her to explain on her break.
She's kind of a bitch for doing this. You don't do this to a friend, why would you do it to someone you're dating?
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...no, I think Faye was right the first time.
Also, that is a hell of a thing to say to your ex at her workplace.
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Okay, so what exactly is wrong with "if she wants to hear from me she'll call"? Isn't that kind of... proper?
I was basically going to say the same thing. Marten's right to do what he's doing.
Panel 4 irks me. I feel like Faye and Dora aren't looking at the situation from a helpful perspective.
Instead of faulting Marten for perfectly acceptable behavior, maybe Faye should swing by TSB (purely for business purposes, you see) and try to help a guy out.
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Okay, so what exactly is wrong with "if she wants to hear from me she'll call"? Isn't that kind of... proper?
Agreed - especially since she's blown him off twice without actually saying what's up. That seems like a strong sign it's over. Faye and Dora are just Charlie Brown'ing him again, for my money.
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I don't think it would be creepy for Marten to go to TSB to find out what's going on.
Padma and Marten's relationship went way beyond the point where simply ignoring the other person is acceptable.
Marten deserves an explanation, even if it is only for him to have an opportunity to tell Padma that she has treated him badly and he doesn't want to see her.
If Padma knows what's good for her, she'll talk to Marten before Faye decides that she (or god forbid, Faye and Dora both) needs to pay a visit to TSB.
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I'm in the middle on this one.
On one hand, their relationship was casual but it was still a relationship. What Padma is doing is totally the coward's way out, and Marten deserves some answers.
On the other hand, I get where he's coming from - going there could just turn out to be really awkward and uncomfortable, especially if she really did end up just losing interest (which I doubt, but it's a valid fear).
So I think I'm gonna go with: Marten absolutely has the RIGHT to find the girl and demand some answers, but only if he wants to. Faye and Dora - uh, experts though they may be - don't need to be pushing him into anything and I don't think NOT going makes him the least bit passive aggressive. Or even very aggressively passive.
Added: Looking over the comic again, I'm also kind of surprised at just how angry Dora's looking. Obviously they're at a place where they can talk about dating other people, they're friends, and she cares about his happiness and therefore relationship with Padma. But she's looking to be a little TOO invested and clearly is still sore on the "passive" front.
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Yeah, the passive aggressive comment's really out of line. But I think he is being passive to an extet where he's aggressively pursuing passivity. They really aren't the same thing...
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:psyduck:
That is all.
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Woho, Marten back in Coffee Doom.
Havent seen that one in a long while.
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He was there in his shorts just the other day...
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Okay, so what exactly is wrong with "if she wants to hear from me she'll call"? Isn't that kind of... proper?
Agreed - especially since she's blown him off twice without actually saying what's up. That seems like a strong sign it's over. Faye and Dora are just Charlie Brown'ing him again, for my money.
Nah, I don't think it's a good idea. Marten is so caught up in his pride, he won't make an effort to talk to Padma (as in, try something other than the phone). This is at his own expense since now he's in a position of uncertainty and deliberately put the ball in her court. He couldn't deal with uncertainty in the past, and now he's setting himself up to be screwed over and get all resentful again.
I don't think Marten's given up emotionally on Padma yet. He says, "If she wants to see me again, she'll call." Clearly there is an issue which needs resolving here, but Marten expects Padma to have an epiphany and change her behaviour, without Marten changing his at all (i.e. by trying another method of confrontation.)
EDIT: Setting her up to fail a little bit? Not sure.
Not that Padma is Marten's responsibility, but his behaviour could be interpreted as self-centred. Padma's in a way more vulnerable position than him. She's looking into the face of the 3 big triggers of mental illness: moving house, moving job, and loss of a loved one. It always seemed to me that Padma was really struggling with these changes, especially with her last-minute feelings for Marten. Marten immediately assumes that she's decided she's too cool for him, and that it has nothing to do with how much her life sucks right now. By letting her be responsible for contacting him, he gets to blame her when she doesn't, and withdraws his support for her at this difficult time.
...Or Marten finally talks to her, it turns out she just kept forgetting to call, and she's just like, "Woops, soz."
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"I'm not gonna be the creepy dude who follows a girl to work after she decides she doesn't want anything more to do with him.
Knock knock, hey Marten. A guy is entitled to be told something like that to the face. (or at least told at all)
(I was in a similar situation once. I decided to confront her and after half a year of blaming myself, I realized it was just cruel of her not to have told me sooner she didn't see the relationship working anymore. Leaving someone dangling in uncertainty - especially in a sex-relationship like that with both people having some-kinda-feelings - is just bad sport and really, really cruel.)
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Okay, so what exactly is wrong with "if she wants to hear from me she'll call"? Isn't that kind of... proper?
Agreed - especially since she's blown him off twice without actually saying what's up. That seems like a strong sign it's over. Faye and Dora are just Charlie Brown'ing him again, for my money.
Nah, I don't think it's a good idea. Marten is so caught up in his pride, he won't make an effort to talk to Padma (as in, try something other than the phone). This is at his own expense since now he's in a position of uncertainty and deliberately put the ball in her court. He couldn't deal with uncertainty in the past, and now he's setting himself up to be screwed over and get all resentful again.
I don't think Marten's given up emotionally on Padma yet. He says, "If she wants to see me again, she'll call." Clearly there is an issue which needs resolving here, but Marten expects Padma to have an epiphany and change her behaviour, without Marten changing his at all (i.e. by trying another method of confrontation.)
Communication goes both ways, and she won't even text him back. If anything, he's trying too hard to 'change his behaviour' after pushing too far for answers with Dora and Pre-Strip Girlfirend, but at least he's trying.
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A guy also deserves to not to have to jump through hoops when he's done nothing wrong to get a straight answer.
He is correct in not wasting further effort. Anything he can do to communicate at this point is bound to backfire, and usually spectacularly. Move on. If she pulls her head out her fourth point of contact and at least gives him the courtesy of a response; great. Don't bother pining for it though.
Now he at least knows to not be so great that a casual hookup gets all contrary about keeping it casual and not communicating >>>>clearly<<<< that they changed their mind.
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Yeah, the passive aggressive comment's really out of line. But I think he is being passive to an extet where he's aggressively pursuing passivity. They really aren't the same thing...
It's not like she isn't a qualified source :)
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A guy also deserves to not to have to jump through hoops when he's done nothing wrong to get a straight answer.
Let the court records that a guy is always doing something wrong whenever girls are involved.
I can't shake the feeling that while Marten has really moved on about his relationship with Dora, I'm not so sure about Dora. Even if she admits she's having relationship/self-esteem issues, it will be an easy cop-out for her to portray Marten negatively.
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Let the court records that a guy is always doing something wrong whenever girls are involved.
The only way to win that silly game is to refuse to play, which in essence is what Marten is doing. She wants him, she can make the effort to communicate. Until then, walk away and don't look back.
Why? Because anything other than walking away is an automatic fail scenario.
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*looks at comic*
*looks at thread*
WELP.
EDIT: okay here's my take on things
if you want to be "in the right" then you refuse to talk to her unless she returns your call
if you actually want to give her a chance you go talk to her
marty may just wanna be the winner
Here.
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Why? Because anything other than walking away is an automatic fail scenario.
I hope you don't live your romantic life by that principle. °O
He's only able to do what he's doing now because he still has strong hope/confidence that Padma WILL eventually get in touch with him and explain herself.
Just wait till that hope runs out. He'll become way active then.
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I'm kinda on Marten's side in this one, mainly as I feel like I'd do the same myself (which is projecting, and bad, but oops). He's made an effort, it's on Padma now.
In other news, I don't recall seeing that bright a shade of lipstick on Dora in a while, she looks a little Raven-esque in it.
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A guy also deserves
A guy is entitled
Marten absolutely has the RIGHT
Marten deserves
It is better not to get all worked up over an assumption; there could be other developments we don't know about, like if grandmother is dying or has died, and Padma has gone West to sort things out - which could easily lead to her ignoring texts for a while. It is reasonable for Marten to wait a bit longer; it is also reasonable for him to call in at tSB anyway.
OTOH, I'm a little surprised that Dora doesn't already have information (unless her comment implies that she knows Padma is still around), seeing as Padma is the bakery manager and Dora is doing business with tSB daily (I presume fresh cakes are delivered daily, even if the ground coffee for tSB isn't).
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My dating experience doesn't provide a statistically valid sample, but when I've been in Marten's situation, continuing to press the matter never led to anything good.
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Alright, explain how doing anything other than not horribly investing himself in a response will constructively aid Marten and not end up being likely to waste his time and worsen his standing with Padma?
Normally when one person cuts communication like that, hope is a fool's game at best. Especially in today's world, where communication is often just a matter of taking 30 seconds or less to text a quick reply if you don't want to have an extended voice conversation.
(Assuming her cell phone works of course. I could see this being a perfect storm of leaving to be at dying grandma's side + unexpectedly dead phone causing the communication outage. )
She is unwilling or unable to reply. No point in him worrying about it, and getting too aggressive...rarely works out well.
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Actually I'm wondering if there's a difference between being aggressively passive and passive aggressive. "Passive aggressive" doesn't seem to describe Marten too well.
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Jim is the bakery manager, I thought? Elliot calls him the boss in this strip. (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1924)
I'm not sure about Dora's "passive aggressive" comment. I originally interpreted it as just sassing Faye, as I can't see how Marten is making any kind of comment about Dora or Faye. If it's toward Padma, I'm not sure how you can be passive aggressive about someone you're already openly talking about. From what I can see, either Marten doesn't see the similarities between this and Vicki at all or he's remembering all too well how hard this was last time, so he's taking the emotionally safer route, according to his experiences.
I think seeing Padma would help if just for future reference. People want to know how they messed up so they can fix it to not do it again.
I think Faye's comment is accurate. There's definitely times people I know and myself seem to go out of our way to do nothing. :mrgreen:
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Alright, explain how doing anything other than not horribly investing himself in a response will constructively aid Marten and not end up being likely to waste his time and worsen his standing with Padma?
[ ... ]
She is unwilling or unable to reply. No point in him worrying about it, and getting too aggressive...rarely works out well.
Oh, I never opted for the trainwreck storm-the-beaches option. All I wanted to say is that too much passivity on either side is emotionally hurtful in many cases.
Marten is doing the right thing here. In this case. Under these circumstances. In this particular informed reality.
If we/he had more information we/he might think differently.
(There is no automatic fail scenario under these circumstances.)
[ ... ]
I think Faye's comment is accurate. There's definitely times people I know and myself [strike]seem to[/strike] go out of our way to do nothing. :mrgreen:
Oh, Marten isn't going out of his way to do nothing. That is EXACTLY his way, methinks. oO
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There is no automatic fail scenario under these circumstances.)
Clarification of "automatic fail": hyperbolic phrasing to illustrate and emphasize something being of such an improbable magnitude that using a 100% probability of failure descriptor results in statistically negligible variance between the actual and stated probability. :-P
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Clarification of "automatic fail": hyperbolic phrasing to illustrate and emphasize something being of such an improbable magnitude that using a 100% probability of failure descriptor results in statistically negligible variance between the actual and stated probability. :-P
And as smart as that may sound, I still don't like generalizations. ^^
Also I am unsure whether you should use that phrasing in this context at all. As I said, there is no way to determine the variance between the stated and actual probability because there is not enough information available to determine the "actual" probability.
But this is going to be about semantics at some point now, I'll stop. °O
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Registered just because this was a triggering comic for waking up at 3:33am >_>
I've been in a much more invested relationship with someone who led me along *hard* and then just one day completely changed into someone else and stopped making an effort to communicate with me at all. During our relationship, they told that they loved me and insisted that I trust them and I did and continued to much longer than anyone should have. I kept excusing their behavior with whatever I could think of and continued to send messages of love and support because they said they liked getting them. So I learned a couple of things from that relationship:
1. Don't trust people... especially those who ask for it.
2. How to meter out emotional investment.
As for Padma, Marten should just walk away. As a previous person pointed out, this is a digital age (and in this universe, AI in the form of anthro-pcs is a reality). There is no excuse whatsoever for not communicating. The only thing remotely excusable is "she's going through a hard time", but if that means that she can't take 30 seconds out of a week to type that out and hit "send", then is that really someone you want to invest in anyway?
Marten's doing this right. He's put forth just the right amount of effort to open communication with a person who has cut it off. Now, I think he has every right to be mad and to show it. Even more so if she shows back up. It should even be encouraged, I think, because then he's setting healthy boundaries on how he is going to allow others to treat him. If this is supposed to be a random hookup and a new(ish) potential friend with benefits, he doesn't owe her the emotional support that would be expected in a more serious, committed relationship. If this is any deeper than that, she doesn't get to treat him like an emotional tampon for her own benefit while leaving him used up without an explanation.
She crazy, Marten. Don't look back.
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Actually I'm wondering if there's a difference between being aggressively passive and passive aggressive. "Passive aggressive" doesn't seem to describe Marten too well.
Yes. Dora is wrong. Faye is wrong if she's being literal about Marten being aggressive and is implying the aggression is aimed towards someone other than himself. Marten may feel passive aggressive at the moment--and talking about this stuff to the two ladies might be an act of passive aggression--but his other actions don't seem to be dictated by that mood. Sometimes polite people have codes of conduct that avoid interference by a present emotional temperature.
Passively aggressive: Marten sticking to his default mode with the intention of proving something to or about Padma.
Martenly passive: Marten sticking to his default mode with the intention of not letting overthinking result in making a mistake regarding Padma.
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Clarification of "automatic fail": hyperbolic phrasing to illustrate and emphasize something being of such an improbable magnitude that using a 100% probability of failure descriptor results in statistically negligible variance between the actual and stated probability. :-P
And as smart as that may sound, I still don't like generalizations. ^^
Also I am unsure whether you should use that phrasing in this context at all. As I said, there is no way to determine the variance between the stated and actual probability because there is not enough information available to determine the "actual" probability.
But this is going to be about semantics at some point now, I'll stop. °O
Fair 'nuff. I can definitely agree that we have far differing assessments of probability on this, most likely to to differing past experiences. I was just clarifying that *I* meant. :)
Registered just because this was a triggering comic for waking up at 3:33am >_>
I've been in a much more invested relationship with someone who led me along *hard* and then just one day completely changed into someone else and stopped making an effort to communicate with me at all. During our relationship, they told that they loved me and insisted that I trust them and I did and continued to much longer than anyone should have. I kept excusing their behavior with whatever I could think of and continued to send messages of love and support because they said they liked getting them. So I learned a couple of things from that relationship:
1. Don't trust people... especially those who ask for it.
2. How to meter out emotional investment.
As for Padma, Marten should just walk away. As a previous person pointed out, this is a digital age (and in this universe, AI in the form of anthro-pcs is a reality). There is no excuse whatsoever for not communicating. The only thing remotely excusable is "she's going through a hard time", but if that means that she can't take 30 seconds out of a week to type that out and hit "send", then is that really someone you want to invest in anyway?
Marten's doing this right. He's put forth just the right amount of effort to open communication with a person who has cut it off. Now, I think he has every right to be mad and to show it. Even more so if she shows back up. It should even be encouraged, I think, because then he's setting healthy boundaries on how he is going to allow others to treat him. If this is supposed to be a random hookup and a new(ish) potential friend with benefits, he doesn't owe her the emotional support that would be expected in a more serious, committed relationship. If this is any deeper than that, she doesn't get to treat him like an emotional tampon for her own benefit while leaving him used up without an explanation.
She crazy, Marten. Don't look back.
THIS! :psyduck:
Too often many of us get taught to either take all the crap that gets shoved our way and ask for more; or turn into soulless user a-holes. There is actually a middle ground where one can be a decent person but still enforce respect.
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There is actually a middle ground where one can be a decent person but still enforce respect.
"Enforce respect"? That's not quite how it works, you know.
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"Treat me with respect or I walk away" is exactly how it works. That is enforcing respect.
You get exactly what you put up with. One of the best ways out when dealing with a person that hasn't quite clued in on what is and isn't a decent thing to do and for some reason refuses to do so is to refuse to play ball. If you keep taking it, you validate it and the cycle continues. Doing a 180 flip and becoming like them isn't exactly constructive either.
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I'm pretty sure Marten is seeing the Ghost of Vicki in this situation. He ended up trying so hard to salvage things there that he moved across the country to be with her, and things between them still crashed and burned-and a lot like things are now between him and Padma-with her becoming increasingly uncommunicative.
It's quite possible that he's thinking his failure to "take the hint" from Vicki's similar behavior led to a long drawn-out breakup and him being stuck on the other side of the country. He's probably thinking that he's NOT going to repeat that mistake with Padma; her behavior in canceling dates and not returning his calls-so hauntingly familiar to Vicki's-is saying to him that she's done, and it's not like this was going to last anyway, right?
If this is what he's thinking (and it seems so), if the Ghost of Vicki is haunting him right now (looks like it is), then no way in hell is he going anywhere near tSB. By this reasoning, all that's going to accomplish is an embarrassing and tense scene where Padma has to tell him to his face that it's over. And that's assuming it's even that civil-Marten may be imagining being tossed out by Elliot or taken away by the cops while Padma hides in the back.
If all that's going through his mind, and it seems like at least some of it is, then I'll be very surprised if he goes into tSB. He may feel it won't help anyway, so why bother? Why risk a bad scene? Let it end there, he won't have to see Padma again, no big loss right? (So he'll tell himself. He won't believe it deep down, but he'll tell himself that.)
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That is enforcing respect.
Have you never heard the phrase "to earn respect"?
You imply that there can be some God-given right to respect, which maybe not everyone would agree with - especially if this is in some way linked with being male (which is all too common, I fear).
Of course, we should all try to respect others, regardless of failings, but this is a different matter from demanding or expecting respect (which is too often a matter of wanting to be kowtowed to - really, different words should be used) - it is far more important to be able to respect others than to be respected.
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That is enforcing respect.
Have you never heard the phrase "to earn respect"?
You imply that there can be some God-given right to respect, which maybe not everyone would agree with - especially if this is in some way linked with being male (which is all too common, I fear).
Of course, we should all try to respect others, regardless of failings, but this is a different matter from demanding or expecting respect (which is too often a matter of wanting to be kowtowed to - really, different words should be used) - it is far more important to be able to respect others than to be respected.
Nice assumption as to my meaning, but no.
I mean as in the basic respect everyone regardless of gender is due.
But I SO appreciate the assumption. :roll:
And in this example Marten already showed/earned respect by trying to communicate when the initial shutdown occurred. It has not been returned in the last week. If this is deliberate on her part, then kowtowing to it by being a door mat can actively make it worse, by sending the message that he will put up with getting ignored/shut down.
This is in no way a healthy thing in either a FwB or serious relationship to encourage/condone.
Edit: And to nip any further incredibly insulting insinuations of male chauvinism in the bud- the behavior of just cutting communication with someone like that without a VERY good reason is an incredibly disrespectful thing to do regardless of gender, race, creed, religion, species, disability, artistic ability, IQ, endowment, or wealth. (non-exhaustive list)
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Nice assumption as to my meaning, but no.
I'm sorry if I am misinterpreting you; I took your meaning from this:
"Treat me with respect or I walk away"
which seems consistent with some of your other posts.
One could say that walking away is not respecting the other party by not first trying to find out why they are doing what they do.
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I mean as in the basic respect everyone regardless of gender is due.
Just to point out that this applies to every situation one can think of -but- romantic relationships.
Ever heard the phrase "All is fair in love and war... and webcomics" ?. You may not like the implied meaning, yet there is very little doubt that whoever coined this in the first place had ample experience to back his claim up, except for the webcomic part.
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Mr. Hodges has it right - respect is earned, not an entitlement.
Some respect is simply earned as a result of being a human being, but not all. It has been my experience that those who demand respect, often don't deserve it. Many of those who do not show respect often have none for themselves either.
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Nice assumption as to my meaning, but no.
I'm sorry if I am misinterpreting you; I took your meaning from this:
"Treat me with respect or I walk away"
which seems consistent with some of your other posts.
One could say that walking away is not respecting the other party by not first trying to find out why they are doing what they do.
In the scope of the example I am applying my statement to, Marten has already called and left messages. That was the attempt to find out. She hasn't clarified. In a week. Granted, grandma could be dying/dead, but at some point during that week there was 30 seconds to spare to at least say, "Hey, sorry haven't called back, talk to you when I get chance."
Now, if she is in another state with a dead phone that has her only copy of Marten's number- that is a damn good reason for not replying. Probably one of the few.
I've been in situations where someone's stated course and actions didn't exactly match in a sensible way. I usually politely ask for clarification (or observe further). Now, if they get rude with me for making the effort to educate myself....then it's time to remind them of the social contract they just violated by being a prick right back. (within constructive bounds if possible; there is a certain technique needed to hold that mirror up to people.)
Mr. Hodges has it right - respect is earned, not an entitlement.
Some respect is simply earned as a result of being a human being, but not all. It has been my experience that those who demand respect, often don't deserve it. Many of those who do not show respect often have none for themselves either.
There is a fine line between petulantly demanding unearned respect, and rightfully demanding to not be disrespected when you haven't done anything to warrant it.
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Is that Raven or Dora? The Lipstick and hairstyle is confusing me :psyduck:
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Is that Raven or Dora? The Lipstick and hairstyle is confusing me :psyduck:
Pretty sure it's Dora, she has gages and I don't think Raven has those.
I think Dora saying the "passive aggressive" comment makes sense - look how their relationship went. She probably views his "everything is fine, I'm not going to do anything for my own good" as very reminiscent of how their relationship ended - he couldn't actually say what Dora's faults were and being assertive, so she had to break it off. He's not straight up telling Padma whats wrong (and I think it is completely wrong to break something off without a reason, it's cruel) and instead is just avoiding it, causing himself more harm. If he sees Padma again after this, he may very well act passive aggressive towards her and Dora might be seeing this potential.
She could also mean it (how i first interpreted it) that he's being passive aggressive to HIMSELF - he's treating his feelings like they don't matter when he obviously cares. :psyduck:
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Mr. Hodges has it right - respect is earned, not an entitlement.
Some respect is simply earned as a result of being a human being, but not all. It has been my experience that those who demand respect, often don't deserve it. Many of those who do not show respect often have none for themselves either.
Opinions may differ. If you don't know a person, do you respect them until they've proven not to be worthy of respect, or do you not respect them until they have proven to be worthy of respect?
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Why are Faye's and Dora's boobs the same size in this strip?
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This whole respect argument is weird. I feel like everyone's on different wavelenghs. I think Overkillengine's point is, sometimes people treat you badly for no reason and there's no way of earning better treatment. At that point, you have to actually walk away, otherwise terrible people just pile up in your life. "Enforce" is a weird word for it, but getting respect does require some sort of action, like everything else. Right?
The respect issue is similar to the trust issue in that way. You obviously can't demand respect in the same way you can't just demand trust. But sometimes people are so stingy with those things it's irrational, and then it ruins your life.
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I don't think it's a matter of respect or lack thereof that has Padma acting this way, I think it's fear. Fear of a tense, embarrassing confrontation over the ending of their relationship/fling/whatever. Marten is also, IMO, acting primarily out of fear-fear of humiliating himself if he pushes further for an answer from Padma. Like I said in my previous post, I think he's haunted by the Ghost of Vicki, or rather the ghost of their dead relationship. I'm sure he sees parallels between the ending of that relationship and how things are now going with Padma, and he doesn't want to repeat the same mistakes he made with Vicki. Hence fear of repeating those mistakes has him acting and saying the things he has so far.
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There's something naggingly wrong about this.
We in this crazy world of being QC fans/readers/obsessives have always seen tSB as something of an "alternate universe" CoD. Hanners and Marten mentioned that the first time they set foot in the place.
To this point, we've pretty much seen everything (or mostly everything) that was happening at CoD happen in tSB. We've commented that the Marten/Padma relationship seemed a lot like Marten's "off screen" relationship with Vicki; the wooing of Padma by Marten even seemed a lot like Dora swooping in to grab Marten after Faye decided she couldn't take it to the next level with our hero.
There's one thing that differs between the two, still - someone dying. In the CoD "universe", it was Faye's dad. In tSB, we're still presuming it's going to be Padma's grandmother.
What if it's not that, though?
I'll just leave my thought there for now. But I've seen enough foreshadowing to suggest someone is about to get written out of the story - permanently.
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My dating experience doesn't provide a statistically valid sample, but when I've been in Marten's situation, continuing to press the matter never led to anything good.
My dating experience isn't necessarily valid either, but I've tried it both ways, pressing the matter and not pressing it. Neither has led to good. :)
It seems to me that whether or not Marten should press the matter depends on the nature of the relationship, as they have defined it. If it's "just a roll in the hay" and that's it, then he just shouldn't bother. If they intend this to be a lasting relationship, he should definitely go over there to find out what's up. I get the feeling that they haven't really defined their relationship, so I suppose it could go either way, but I definitely lean more towards visiting her so he can, at the very least, ask, "are you okay?" If she really is going through a difficult time, this would be an appropriate, supportive thing to do.
Is that Raven or Dora? The Lipstick and hairstyle is confusing me :psyduck:
It's definitely Dora. Her boobs are too small for her to be Raven. Look at the boobs! :D
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My dating experience doesn't provide a statistically valid sample, but when I've been in Marten's situation, continuing to press the matter never led to anything good.
My dating experience isn't necessarily valid either, but I've tried it both ways, pressing the matter and not pressing it. Neither has led to good. :)
My gut feeling is that Marten is right... for now. Leave messages and wait. For a few days.
If he hasn't heard from her in several days, and hasn't been blown off, then I don't think stopping in to see if she's ok is not creepy, nor is it being "that guy"
It's definitely Dora. Her boobs are too small for her to be Raven. Look at the boobs! :D
Good advice. Always look at the boobs.
It's what I do.
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We in this crazy world of being QC fans/readers/obsessives have always seen tSB as something of an "alternate universe" CoD. Hanners and Marten mentioned that the first time they set foot in the place.
There's one thing that differs between the two, still - someone dying. In the CoD "universe", it was Faye's dad. In tSB, we're still presuming it's going to be Padma's grandmother.
What if it's not that, though?
I'll just leave my thought there for now. But I've seen enough foreshadowing to suggest someone is about to get written out of the story - permanently.
Oh no, Renee! After all she's apparently the counterpart of Faye, but since the bakery crew are all subtly different from the "originals" maybe something bad is going to happen to her, instead of a family member. Of course if something bad has happened to any of the bakery crew you'd think Marten and co. would already know about it, if only via overhearing gossip from customers at Coffee of Doom or in the college library. In a fairly small town like that someone getting killed by an exploding donut maker or what have you would probably generate some local press and a lot of talk.
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...That's not what I meant.
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This comic reminds me how glad I am I learned these lessons early.
1)Don't dwell. Either its moving forward or it isn't, if it isn't, keep yourself amused and distracted by other things. S/he won't love you more if you are mopey and weepy.
2)Keep it moving. If its not working with somebody, or hasn't worked, don't sit around hoping things will change. Start moving toward finding somebody else.
Most people want partners that are self-reliant and strong. If you have these attitudes, your partner will sense it, and be less prone to playing games.
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I can't believe I finally registered just to participate in this thread but you people talking about her being at her grandmother are being wrong on the internet.
Re-read #2091 and look at the last panel.
From personal experience, dying family isn't so all consuming that you can't find time to return a phone call or even if she lost a phone get a message to someone you're "dating".
If they'd been dating for weeks or months MAYBE going to visit would be justified, but my impression is they have only been going out for a few day, a week or two at most. But a lot also depends on the guys style, guys who look big (and thus scary) are NOT encourage to push this boundary. A skinny wimpy guy like Martin could get away with it but honestly, give the chick some time to figure out what's going on in her head. A week or two goes by and send her some flowers or other sort of gesture.
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...That's not what I meant.
I think I know what you meant...and I hope that you're wrong.
You had better be wrong!! :psyduck:
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There's one thing that differs between the two, still - someone dying. In the CoD "universe", it was Faye's dad. In tSB, we're still presuming it's going to be Padma's grandmother.
What if it's not that, though?
I'll just leave my thought there for now. But I've seen enough foreshadowing to suggest someone is about to get written out of the story - permanently.
dunh dunh DUNH!
Okay, spill. I have NO idea who you could be talking about: no one seems to have a deathmark on them. Unless you're just trying to make a new interesting poll option. :-P
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Also, Marten seems to be taking a perfectly reasonable attitude: I think Dora / Faye should cut him some slack. He's got enough pride, as a man, not turning into a creepy stalker or some whiny s.n.a.g. if some girl decides to walk. It's a sucky thing for her to do, but that's that. Marten is actually *showing backbone* and *not* being a doormat.
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From personal experience, dying family isn't so all consuming that you can't find time to return a phone call or even if she lost a phone get a message to someone you're "dating".
Personal experience varies. For some people it is perfectly possible that a traumatic event could push everything else aside for an indefinite period, even those apparently quick or simple things.
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FOREBODE
FOREBODE
FOREBODE
FOREBODE
That is all.
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If Martin were to do anything else, it would venture into stalking territory. Padma has given every indication that she's either done with the relationship, or too preoccupied for it. She's probably realized that it's not going to work with her personal situation and the distance and everything.
I've dated more than one woman with this break-up style (being suddenly unavailable and not returning messages, even in a fairly serious relationship.) My one of my exes would get calls and text messages from guys she's been on one date with a year before who would not take a hint. She refused to just tell them that she was not interested, she thought it was better to just ignore them. The guys just looked creepy and pathetic, even borderline psycho, for not moving on.
It's over, and Martin should move on. If Padma is still interested, it's on her to fix it. If she's doing some sort of relationship dance game mumbo-jumbo, she should knock it off and give him explicit instructions.
Dora and Faye think he should give chase, which is wrong. The girl signals for "chase me" and "leave me alone" are often exactly the same. They only think the signal is "chase me" because they know Marten and know he's harmless and not creepy stalker guy.
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I've dated more than one woman with this break-up style (being suddenly unavailable and not returning messages, even in a fairly serious relationship.) My one of my exes would get calls and text messages from guys she's been on one date with a year before who would not take a hint. She refused to just tell them that she was not interested, she thought it was better to just ignore them. The guys just looked creepy and pathetic, even borderline psycho, for not moving on.
While I agree that he should just leave it since it would at this point make him a stalker to do anything else, Padma is the one causing the problem here. People who use this "style" of breakup, in the absence of other reasons to ignore the other person, are cowards.
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Padma and Marten weren't on "one date a year earlier" though. They were on multiple dates, had sex until shortly before and what's more, they were happy safe for the fact that she has to leave after a vague unspecified time of a few weeks. And then suddenly from one day to the other she gets like that.
For all we know she could have been abducted and replaced by Pod people after their last date so sudden was the change.
Wanting answers in that situation is justified.
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Why are Faye's and Dora's boobs the same size in this strip?
Just a nearly-wild guess from the drawing style, I'd say Faye is not wearing a bra today. Although that seems unlikely given her endowment.
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That is enforcing respect.
Have you never heard the phrase "to earn respect"?
You imply that there can be some God-given right to respect, which maybe not everyone would agree with - especially if this is in some way linked with being male (which is all too common, I fear).
Of course, we should all try to respect others, regardless of failings, but this is a different matter from demanding or expecting respect (which is too often a matter of wanting to be kowtowed to - really, different words should be used) - it is far more important to be able to respect others than to be respected.
I believe I understand your point, which is well taken, but it's worth noting how much social progress has been brought about by women demanding respect.
Padma was offered the managership to get her to stay, but there's no evidence she accepted. She did act manager-y when she tried to negotiate the merchandise swap with CoD.
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I can see Marten wanting to let things drop here and move on, but Faye and maybe Dora not letting it. I can also see the ladies marching down to tSB to confront Padma, maybe even dragging her out by her hair to make her talk to Marten. Faye especially I can see doing that...
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Faye: Hey, you know how I didn't press assault charges when you punched me in public with absolutely no provocation? Would you like it to stay that way?
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For whatever it's worth, Jeph thinks Marten is doing the right thing.
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This whole respect argument is weird. I feel like everyone's on different wavelenghs. I think Overkillengine's point is, sometimes people treat you badly for no reason and there's no way of earning better treatment. At that point, you have to actually walk away, otherwise terrible people just pile up in your life. "Enforce" is a weird word for it, but getting respect does require some sort of action, like everything else. Right?
The respect issue is similar to the trust issue in that way. You obviously can't demand respect in the same way you can't just demand trust. But sometimes people are so stingy with those things it's irrational, and then it ruins your life.
Actually that is pretty much the closest anyone has gotten to the point I have been trying to make. I guess using the word "enforce" threw people off or something, though I believe it a perfectly valid usage of that word. Sometimes people suck. Sometimes unconsciously. When that happens, they often don't even realize what they are doing is wrong until you make a clear* point of telling them that the behavior is not OK.
I believe I understand your point, which is well taken, but it's worth noting how much social progress has been brought about by women demanding respect.
Thank you. :)
*Unambiguous phrasing, no hints, no subtlety, minimal tact. Often the only way to get through to them. Often referred to as being "assertive".
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Is it just me, or does Dora look like Raven in panel 2?
And liking the current Dora design with the longer hair.
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ive been thinking about this and it seems to me that this all started when marten mentioned how a year before he was more of a whiner then he is now. It occurs to me that given the random nature of the person in question she may be to get him to man up. From what i have seen she wants to stay and he wants her to stay. In her own weird way she might be trying to get him to give her a reason to stay.
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Far more likely she wants Marten to stay away. That's usually the case when a person pulls a fade like this-they want to end things without the messy breakup conversation. A coward's way to be sure, but then again many people don't take being dumped very well either.
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Well, I seem to have called it. I've never done that before. :psyduck:
I think Marten, as I am, is comparing what's happening here and what happened with Vicki. He doesn't want to push the matter because he thinks he'll seem a bit too doggedly determined, and that's fine. I think he's doing the right thing.
But I still think Padma might have a reasonable explanation for this, especially given how much her personality has changed since we first met her. In the past few weeks (QC time) she suddenly became a lot more serious about, well, everything. The last time she said something that fits with her bright and somewhat silly personality was here (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2057), i.e. when she and Marten first began this relationship. I'm pretty sure there's something in that.
Oh and by the way, was I the first person to notice Marten's shirt? :P
Penny Arcade reference or indie music reference? Jeph likes to do both...
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I personally think that if the only options are Go See Her or Leave Her Alone, Marten is doing what the situation calls for. The last encounter they had was the conversation in bed about how Padma wishes they met earlier. It was her first clue that Marten may not be serious about their situation, when Marten was the one who was initially interested in her but toned down his seriousness because that's what he thought she wanted because that WAS what she wanted until she had it, then she wanted more but then when she wants more, Marten was finally getting the hang of just having fun.
Given how complicated their mini-relationship-thing is/was....it's understandable to an extent that Padma is avoiding him (even if you ignore the granny saga) because she has absolutely no idea how to convey such a convoluted thought process. All she has to say is that she ended up liking him more than she had planned and is worried that he isn't as interested anymore. She could be doing a number of things- pulling the "chase me" thing because she's desperate/not right in the head...or genuinely trying to end thing, but I just can't seem to wrap my brain around that one. It could be that Padma is no longer interested, but given her reactions to a lot of their conversations, it just doesn't seem likely. Either that or she is ripping the band-aid off early so it heals by the time she HAS to deal with Grandma.
Either way....it's not nice. Are either of them doing what makes the most sense? Absolutely not. I think the most sensible way for either of them to react to the other would be:
A) Marten sends Padma a text that he will be ready for her to talk if/when she wants to but will not press her anymore so he doesn't risk annoying her.
B) Padma sends Marten a text that she will talk to/see him before she leaves but she's not up for talking yet.
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My bet is that Faye being who she is is gonna storm over to tSB and demand to know what's going on as she took the Vicki situation into her own hands and has a knack for looking out for Marten.
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Oh, that's pretty much a foregone conclusion.
What might be funny is if she runs into Renee - in pretty much the exact same outfit as she has on.
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Yes! Same plaid shirt... wait, wasn't Marten wearing that one the other day?
Anyway, there is another angle to Padma. We've all seen how flighty she is. This may be the first time she's ever really fallen for anyone...
And she's scared. Really, really cared, and doesn't know how to handle it. So she's using the time-honored technique of avoidance.
It's not going to end well, methinks.
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It never ends well in this strip, does it?
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My bet is that Faye being who she is is gonna storm over to tSB and demand to know what's going on as she took the Vicki situation into her own hands and has a knack for looking out for Marten.
It would probably be better for everyone concerned if Faye respected Marten's choice of how to handle this and left it alone. But that's unlikely, so expect highjinks at tSB when Faye goes on the warpath.
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From personal experience, dying family isn't so all consuming that you can't find time to return a phone call or even if she lost a phone get a message to someone you're "dating".
Again, personal experience. From my own experience, people aren't nearly as predictable. For example, my best friend (as in, he is like my brother to me) lost his father to cancer three years ago. Now, as his father underwent treatment, we talked once a week. When his father recovered, we hung out more, like we did. This went on for about a year. Then nothing for about a month, no returning my phone calls, messages, ignoring everyone he knew. Well, just as I was about to track him down, he turned up at the front door, his father had died that morning. It had turned out that during the month, his father's cancer returned, metastasized very quickly, resulting in him being moved into a hospice where he later died.
Point is, even from personal experience, there is no way in knowing exactly how people are reacting to something as traumatic as a loved one dying.
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I find it a bit odd that both Faye and Dora would take Martens behavior as passive aggressive. He isn't ignoring calls from Padma or doing anything like that, he's simply deciding "Well, since she doesn't seem interested I'm not going to go confront her right now since that would probably be too much. If she wants to talk to me she will, and if she doesn't...well then I guess we cross that bridge." If anything it feels mature and reasonable.
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In other news, Time magazine have had to make a 11th-hour change to the cover of their upcoming edition.
edit: Well, all I can say in response to the new comic is: holy shit, Marten.
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You daft prick!
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"CANCEL" THE "PLANS"
"CANCEL" THE "PLANS" AND BE A HERO
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I have had this planned since Padma first showed up in the comic.
HA HA HA HA HA.
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Congrats Jeph, you wrote Marten brilliantly. I'd be tired of being fucked around too if I were him.
Please don't draw up a crapsaccharine "Officer and a Gentleman" ending to this plot arc. Don't do that. Life isn't like that. An honest resolution to the story would have Marten running to Padma and being shot down because she has to leave and a lame apology that she got too involved too fast, etc etc that ends with her taking Marten's heart and shitting on it. Let Marten shit on the girl's heart for once. He's earned it!
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I don't know what to think. On one hand, Marten's angry (and different clothes than yesterday, so even more time has passed), and for once in his life doesn't want to be a doormat, and I admire the fact that he's at least capable of saying (even passive-aggressively) "you can't treat me like this."
On the other hand...
You FOOL! SHE'S LEAVING TOMORROW! THERE'S A TIME AND A PLACE TO BE A VINDICTIVE PRICK (thank you Dora) BUT THIS ISN'T IT GO TO HER
sorry bout the caps
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Now that... that... is passive-aggressive.
Faye, Dora, take note.
(Also, six damn words, Marty: "Tai let me off the hook.")
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That doesn't really surprise me, because it ties in with the way he handled his anger and bitterness towards Dora's issues as well.
He needs to learn to deal with those kinds of issues in a productive way, rather than store them up (possibly at least partially due to his passivity) and then let them all pour out at the wrong time and/or in the wrong way.
Anyway, congrats - that comic threw me for a loop more than any other before it.
Also, I think this is my 400th post... IF I CAN GET PAST THE RED TEXT OH MY GOD
Now that... that... is passive-aggressive.
Faye, Dora, take note.
Yes. Yes, it is.
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It's good to see Marten learned something from the Dora breakup and is finally starting to grow.
God DAMMIT Marten.
I have had this planned since Padma first showed up in the comic.
HA HA HA HA HA.
Stop the Press: Jeph loves to Troll readers. We keep coming back for more.
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Let Marten shit on the girl's heart for once. He's earned it!
What an incredibly shitty thing to say.
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That doesn't really surprise me, because it ties in with the way he handled his anger and bitterness towards Dora's issues as well.
He needs to learn to deal with those kinds of issues in a productive way, rather than store them up (possibly at least partially due to his passivity) and then let them all pour out at the wrong time and/or in the wrong way.
Marten did the right thing this time. He didn't want to get involved in the first place. The girl practically claimed rights to his cock against his will. Then she shut him out when she realised she was an idiot for going too fast. I know what it's like to be fucked over like that. It's becoming a "same old story": girl/guy comes on too strong, has a great time with new partner/fuckbuddy for a while, then disappears completely for whatever reason. The very worst thing you can do when you've been burned like that is give even the time of day to the one who burned you. Padma is being written so that we can see her guilty conscience. She wants to be absolved of guilt by the universal doormat that is Marten.
Marten did the right thing. He's moving on.
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If Jeph shuts us down before morning, I'd just like to say, it's been fun hanging with (most of) you fine folks.
:psyduck:
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Prediction: Padma will be devastated.
Did Marten do the right thing? I don't know. It depends on whether Faye and Dora know something he doesn't.
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That doesn't really surprise me, because it ties in with the way he handled his anger and bitterness towards Dora's issues as well.
He needs to learn to deal with those kinds of issues in a productive way, rather than store them up (possibly at least partially due to his passivity) and then let them all pour out at the wrong time and/or in the wrong way.
Marten did the right thing this time. He didn't want to get involved in the first place. The girl practically claimed rights to his cock against his will. Then she shut him out when she realised she was an idiot for going too fast. I know what it's like to be fucked over like that. It's becoming a "same old story": girl/guy comes on too strong, has a great time with new partner/fuckbuddy for a while, then disappears completely for whatever reason. The very worst thing you can do when you've been burned like that is give even the time of day to the one who burned you. Padma is being written so that we can see her guilty conscience. She wants to be absolved of guilt by the universal doormat that is Marten.
Marten did the right thing. He's moving on.
Yeah, steady on. She didn't disappear completely - just hadn't called him for a week. It's an emotiona situation - I'm not saying she was right to have done so, but cut her some slack, Jack.
He did the right thing yesterday.
Today, not so much.
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Now that... that... is passive-aggressive.
Indeed.
:-(
What an incredibly shitty thing to say.
Second.
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Something sort of like this may have happened to me once (I say may because it involves my lying bitch of a sister as an intermediary). We had some kind of thing going. Not sure what it was, probably just friends, but she had another guy she never told me about. After a while I made my peace with that, but it became clear that for whatever reason we couldn't be friends. I dashed off an angry (and frankly rather deranged, in retrospect) letter about how I loved her, how she hurt me, we could have been friends, yada yada. Probably not the best move on my part. Didn't call her again.
About three weeks later my sister told me she called. As I said above, my sister is a liar about nearly everything. I have no idea if this call actually took place. I didn't reply for something like a month and never heard from her again. In retrospect, if the call actually happened, she probably just wanted to apologize for letting me lead myself on and/or tell me I was absolutely batshit insane from what I wrote in the letter. Took me a hell of a long time to get over it, too.
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I really hope Marten stops being a prick and actually sends her off.
Is he channelling Dora, or what?
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Damn, that was cold, and it's only going to keep getting colder the more I think about it.
It's probably going to get colder the more Marten thinks about it too.
Oh boy is he ever going to be wracked with guilt tomorrow.
Well, now we have a new standard for people to claim that Marten is completely a jerk all the time from just one incident (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1818).
:psyduck:
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I have had this planned since Padma first showed up in the comic.
HA HA HA HA HA.
We still don't know exactly what "this" is. Perhaps we can wait one more day before all hope for Marten is shattered.
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Congrats Jeph, you wrote Marten brilliantly. I'd be tired of being fucked around too if I were him.
I'm with Napoleon on this. Marten got well and truly yanked around by Padma over the past week or so (and not in the fun way), 'bout time he did some yanking of his own. Why did you do that Marten? Because you're most likely PISSED at the way Padma's been treating you lately, that's why. Bravo for showing some spine.
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5 new replies? I haven't even started typing yet!
Anyway, NOW is the time for Elliot to swoop in and capture Padma's heart.
Also, it scares me when I'm reminded Jeph reads the forums.
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I'd just like to add that it would have been perfectly possible for him to "move on" without shutting her down like that. He could at least say goodbye properly.
And add another vote in support of Jeph's most recent post. Congrats Jeph, you wrote Marten brilliantly. I'd be tired of being fucked around too if I were him.
I'm with Napoleon on this. Marten got well and truly yanked around by Padma over the past week or so (and not in the fun way), 'bout time he did some yanking of his own. Why did you do that Marten? Because you're most likely PISSED as the way Padma's been treating you lately, that's why. Bravo for showing some spine.
That doesn't surprise me.
There's a middle ground between being a doormat and being a prick that you ought to consider. Assertiveness is neither of those things. He didn't show any spine, just his arse.
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Congrats Jeph, you wrote Marten brilliantly. I'd be tired of being fucked around too if I were him.
I'm with Napoleon on this. Marten got well and truly yanked around by Padma over the past week or so (and not in the fun way), 'bout time he did some yanking of his own. Why did you do that Marten? Because you're most likely PISSED at the way Padma's been treating you lately, that's why. Bravo for showing some spine.
He didn't show any spine, though. If he'd explained to Padma why he was upset with her, and that because he was upset with her, he didn't want to hang out, that's one thing, but being passive-aggressive and dismissive is not particularly admirable.
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He didn't show any spine, just his arse.
QFT.
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Anyway, NOW is the time for Elliot to swoop in and capture Padma's heart.
Actually once Elliott hears about this, he's more likely to swoop in and capture Marten's pancreas. With a spoon.
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He didn't show any spine, though. If he'd explained to Padma why he was upset with her, and that because he was upset with her, he didn't want to hang out....
Eh, what would be the point of explaining all that? She's leaving anyway, and he's obviously not going to follow her to CA, so he'll most likely never see her again. Why bother putting any extra effort into what would just be delaying the inevitable?
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He didn't show any spine, though. If he'd explained to Padma why he was upset with her, and that because he was upset with her, he didn't want to hang out....
Eh, what would be the point of explaining all that? She's leaving anyway, and he's obviously not going to follow her to CA, so he'll most likely never see her again. Why bother putting any extra effort into what would just be delaying the inevitable?
Short form: Marten isn't an omniscient narrator. There's probably more story to play out here.
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I can understand Marten's reaction completely. "You don't return my calls for a week, don't have a rational explanation for why and now the night before you leave you want a farewell fuck? To hell with that."
This is not a well thought out action, it is not a wise action and it is probably not the "right" action. But it feels good. He's feeling used. By doing this he feels like he's standing up for himself. Really should have explained why he's pissed though. But, again, not well thought out.
This reminds me of when I got dumped in September. Her dad's dying of a long term degenerative illness and she just walled herself off emotionally, never telling me how she was feeling, always blowing off my offers to be there for her and help her through it. It's easy to get fed up with it. Especially if she wants to be "just friends" again as if she's never ignored you or walled you off. True, you're probably lying to yourself that she'll feel remorse after you blow her off. But sometimes it just feels good to be vengeful even though it is petty and, to an extent, immature.
Truth be told though, Padma was probably never a good match for Marten anyway. True, they like each others' company but do they have any similar interests? You can't build a relationship off sex, I don't care how good it is.
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To me it sounds more like she called Marten at the 11'th hour just to not leave him in the lurch.
Remember, the last time we saw them together he was still putting on a facade of confidence, and she was the apprehensive one. He hasn't really shown her any negativity until now. For all we know, she still thinks he was truly happy. On Marten's side, the week of radio silence gave him the push he needed to face the reality of their situation. It's only been a couple weeks, but even the way he talks to his friends about her (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2079) has changed (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2098).
They both might want their relationship to progress further, but there's no realistic way for that to happen. Padma would have to set her family aside or Marten would have to uproot his entire life again, and neither is willing to ask the other to make that kind of sacrifice. Deep down they both know it won't work, and now they each know the other feels that way.
They both broke it off less-than-ideal ways, but that's how life is sometimes.
That said, the storyline hasn't ended yet. Is this it, or will there be an amicable resolution? We'll have to wait and see.
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I just realized, she said "one last time". I guess she really is leaving for good, rather than to just visit until the grandmother gets better (or doesn't).
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Please don't draw up a crapsaccharine "Officer and a Gentleman" ending to this plot arc. Don't do that. Life isn't like that. An honest resolution to the story would have Marten running to Padma and being shot down because she has to leave and a lame apology that she got too involved too fast, etc etc that ends with her taking Marten's heart and shitting on it. Let Marten shit on the girl's heart for once. He's earned it!
Please be careful not to sound like you're telling Jeph how to write the comic, as opposed to expressing your preferences.
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His memories will be the bitterness he felt this last week. Hers will be the fear of getting too close that she almost overcame.
He should go see her for both their sake (sakes?).
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Please be careful not to sound like you're telling Jeph how to write the comic, as opposed to expressing your preferences.
My apologies. I wasn't telling, I was begging. I know he's gonna do his own thing but I can still plead, can't I?
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His memories will be the bitterness he felt this last week. Hers will be the fear of getting too close that she almost overcame.
He should go see her for both their sake (sakes?).
Wait, you know that Padma has a fear of getting to close? I didn't see that in her character. Big difference between that and getting close and realising it was dumb due to having to leave. I got the impression that Padma is merely fond of rushing in where angels fear to tread.
As for Marten, his memories shouldn't be about bitterness. They should be about triumph in gaining enough self-respect not to go into full doormat mode over a girl who lead him on. He already moved across a whole county for a girl before and that blew up in his face. And Padma was really just a fling. It wasn't a year long or even month long relationship. She didn't have the brains to back away from the intimacy, or the guts to admit she went too far until the last minute. Whatever happens, whatever she could possibly explain to him, and whatever feelings Marten would get off his chest if they did meet one last time, he's still gonna get burned and she is responsible for it. Fuck that noise. Marten should walk away feeling proud.
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He's probably made the best call he could, but hopefully he sees her tomorrow before she goes. A shut bridge is much better than a burnt one.
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"You don't return my calls for a week, don't have a rational explanation for why and now the night before you leave you want a farewell fuck? To hell with that."
If I were Marten, I would have said those words, out loud, to Padma. How else is he going to know whether she got the message? What he did is no path to resolution.
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Painful, painful, very painful. :-( :oops: :cry:
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I can't blame Marten. I'd be feeling pretty used in his place. She's made it very difficult for him to be the bigger man.
Ice cold, Marten.If I were Marten, I would have said those words, out loud, to Padma. How else is he going to know whether she got the message? What he did is no path to resolution.
Padma is not that dense. She should know what's up.
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Oh dear. :psyduck: I had a hunch that this might end badly, but daaaaaaaaaang!
I have had this planned since Padma first showed up in the comic.
HA HA HA HA HA.
Well played, Mr Jacques, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard) well played. (Why the hell am I having a mental image of Mr. Jacques wearing a monocle and petting his giant dog, while laughing evilly)
His memories will be the bitterness he felt this last week. Hers will be the fear of getting too close that she almost overcame.
He should go see her for both their sake (sakes?).
Kinda hoping the same, but at the same time im fearing the worst..
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Let Marten shit on the girl's heart for once. He's earned it!
Deliberately answering bad behaviour with bad behaviour is not a good thing for anyone to do; there is always a better way.
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Jeph: you are a very very bad man D:
Hodges: thank you for all your posts, all of them
Readers who are going "yeah bro you show that bitch, you got some spine finally, hurf hurf huuuuurrrrf": you are acting predictably wretched and awful, and I would be disappointed, but honestly I'm not surprised at all
Marten: enjoy your heartbreak, bro! I hope your personal moral victory is worth the months of bitter recrimination! :D
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There was a simple solution here:
Marten: "Hey, Padma. It's been a while." (passive aggressive tone)
Padma: "Yeah, sorry, I've been busy. Packing and stuff."
Marten: "Right." (again, passive aggressive tone)
Padma: "Anyway, are you busy tonight? I'm ... I'm leaving tomorrow, and I'd like to see you one last time."
Marten: "Oh, wait a second, you sound unwell... is something wrong?"
... you know, invest the tiniest bit of human compassion into at least one single thing you say.
I don't mean being treated like this doesn't deserve some kind of cold shoulder. But you don't have to be THAT much of a cold-hearted ice-king the second anything goes against your expectations.
ANY kind of relation is never about "an eye for an eye".
Deliberately answering bad behaviour with bad behaviour is not a good thing for anyone to do; there is always a better way.
IMO, this was uncalled for and he is right to wonder about himself.
Also, if Padma has ANY intention at all to clear this up, she will meet Marten in person. Both of them have passivity-issues (granted, at different times and in different situations) and its time at least one of them breaks through. Not to save whatever it is they found in each other, but to accomplish any growth at all in this situation.
Painful, painful, very painful. :-( :oops: :cry:
I'm just kinda angry at both of them. °O
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Readers who are going "yeah bro you show that bitch, you got some spine finally, hurf hurf huuuuurrrrf": you are predictably wretched excuses fir human beings and I would be disappointed but honestly I'm not surprised at all
Pardon me, but that wasn't quite what I was trying to say. I just think that his reaction was very reasonable. He has every right to be emotional. What she pulled was pretty harsh. Sometimes our feelings get the better of us. Treat someone who cares about you like dirt for a week, and they might be a little mad about it.
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So Jeph didn't disappoint at all, Marten's happiness IS truly written out of the comic. :-D
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Damnit Marten.
This is a man who, when faced with a thousand mile journey, makes sure to shoot himself in the foot first.
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[ ... ] Treat someone who cares about you like dirt for a week, and they might be a little mad about it.
A tiny week of radio silence is hardly something I'd call "getting treated like dirt". Especially when there has been many a fun sexy-times before it.
Marten sees what he wants to see. In this case, this is hard for him because he IS emotionally attached. And that makes a "tiny week" seem so painful. But honestly, its more normal than not. (at least in my world)
edit:
Life is stranger than fiction.
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Marten is gonna stop her from leaving, they're gonna bang, get married, and live happily ever fucking after. Boom. [removed by moderator, shipping rule]
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[ ... ] Treat someone who cares about you like dirt for a week, and they might be a little mad about it.
A tiny week of radio silence is hardly something I'd call "getting treated like dirt". Especially when there has been many a fun sexy-times before it.
Marten sees what he wants to see. In this case, this is hard for him because he IS emotionally attached. And that makes a "tiny week" seem so painful. But honestly, its more normal than not. (at least in my world)
edit:
Life is stranger than fiction.
Time is a relative thing.
If Padma wasn't going to be leaving, a week with no contact isn't that big of a deal, but when your down to the last week before the big departure, um, yeah.
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[ ... ] Treat someone who cares about you like dirt for a week, and they might be a little mad about it.
A tiny week of radio silence is hardly something I'd call "getting treated like dirt". Especially when there has been many a fun sexy-times before it.
Marten sees what he wants to see. In this case, this is hard for him because he IS emotionally attached. And that makes a "tiny week" seem so painful. But honestly, its more normal than not. (at least in my world)
To my understanding, on the scale of their relationship, a week is pretty big. On the scale of the time they had left, a tiny week was everything. And she discarded that.
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Readers who are going "yeah bro you show that bitch, you got some spine finally, hurf hurf huuuuurrrrf": you are predictably wretched excuses fir human beings and I would be disappointed but honestly I'm not surprised at all
Pardon me, but that wasn't quite what I was trying to say. I just think that his reaction was very reasonable. He has every right to be emotional. What she pulled was pretty harsh. Sometimes our feelings get the better of us. Treat someone who cares about you like dirt for a week, and they might be a little mad about it.
If you understand his actions here but still recognize they are dumb and vindictive, I'm not talking to you with that comment
If, on the other hand, you want to provide justification for his actions, especially if you want to couch it in extremely sexist language, well then what I said applies
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Readers who are going "yeah bro you show that bitch, you got some spine finally, hurf hurf huuuuurrrrf": you are predictably wretched excuses fir human beings and I would be disappointed but honestly I'm not surprised at all
Pardon me, but that wasn't quite what I was trying to say. I just think that his reaction was very reasonable. He has every right to be emotional. What she pulled was pretty harsh. Sometimes our feelings get the better of us. Treat someone who cares about you like dirt for a week, and they might be a little mad about it.
If you understand his actions here but still recognize they are dumb and vindictive, I'm not talking to you with that comment
If, on the other hand, you want to provide justification for his actions, especially if you want to couch it in extremely sexist language, well then what I said applies
Fair enough. I know they're dumb and vindictive. HE knows they are as soon as he hangs up the phone, and he feels awful about it immediately. But when he said them they felt absolutely right. Emotions aren't rational.
I think we agree with each other though. :-P
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On the scale of the time they had left, a tiny week was everything. And she discarded that.
In particular, she delayed going, and then didn't use the delay with Marten as, presumably, she had intended. I can see that she could have got confused in her own mind, feeling that all she was doing by delaying was making it harder for both of them when the time came, and so decided to pour cold water on the relationship before then.
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On the scale of the time they had left, a tiny week was everything. And she discarded that.
In particular, she delayed going, and then didn't use the delay with Marten as, presumably, she had intended. I can see that she could have got confused in her own mind, feeling that all she was doing by delaying was making it harder for both of them when the time came, and so decided to pour cold water on the relationship before then.
I didn't wanna say that because it sounded sorta contrived in my head, but yup. Talk about mixed messages. They both fucked up and now they'll both pay the price. Presumably. Unless one of them bites the bullet and apologizes. But at this point I don't know if either of them should accept an apology from the other. It seems unlikely though. We like stewing in our own misery waaay too much to let that happen.
Anyways I've posted too many times in rapid succession, I need to stop before this gets weird. :psyduck:
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On the scale of the time they had left, a tiny week was everything. And she discarded that.
In particular, she delayed going, and then didn't use the delay with Marten as, presumably, she had intended. I can see that she could have got confused in her own mind, feeling that all she was doing by delaying was making it harder for both of them when the time came, and so decided to pour cold water on the relationship before then.
Thanks you three, I can see what I failed to consider. ~~
But my earlier point remains. There is no room for "bearing grudges" in this situation. And what Marten has done seems like just that for me.
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I can understand Marten's reaction completely. "You don't return my calls for a week, don't have a rational explanation for why and now the night before you leave you want a farewell fuck? To hell with that."
What's irrational about "I've been busy. Packing and stuff."? You might not think it is adequate, or satisfactory, or whatever, but it is quite rational.
As for Marten, his memories shouldn't be about bitterness. They should be about triumph in gaining enough self-respect not to go into full doormat mode over a girl who lead him on. He already moved across a whole county for a girl before and that blew up in his face. And Padma was really just a fling. It wasn't a year long or even month long relationship. She didn't have the brains to back away from the intimacy, or the guts to admit she went too far until the last minute. Whatever happens, whatever she could possibly explain to him, and whatever feelings Marten would get off his chest if they did meet one last time, he's still gonna get burned and she is responsible for it. Fuck that noise. Marten should walk away feeling proud.
Nice to see we're back to the woman-blaming-and-man-absolving again. I mean, it's not like Padma and Marten are both adults fully responsible for their feelings and actions in a mutually voluntary relationship. Nope it's all Padma's fault and Marten should be proud of himself. Ugh... :-(
I'd just like to add that it would have been perfectly possible for him to "move on" without shutting her down like that. He could at least say goodbye properly.
I'm with Tova on this. There's a middle ground between being a doormat and a prick, and Marten is a long way from that. I thought he did the right thing in yesterday's strip, but definitely not today. Bad karma for you, Marten, but you already know that, right?
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I'd just like to add that it would have been perfectly possible for him to "move on" without shutting her down like that. He could at least say goodbye properly.
I'm with Tova on this. There's a middle ground between being a doormat and a prick, and Marten is a long way from that. I thought he did the right thing in yesterday's strip, but definitely not today. Bad karma for you, Marten, but you already know that, right?
I'll go ahead and frame this. May I?
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Nice to see we're back to the woman-blaming-and-man-absolving again. I mean, it's not like Padma and Marten are both adults fully responsible for their feelings and actions in a mutually voluntary relationship. Nope it's all Padma's fault and Marten should be proud of himself. Ugh... :-(
I am a filthy liar and an all around bad person, but here I go, posting again. I agree that Padma and Marten BOTH fucked up. The only thing I have to say in his defense that I can't say in hers is, he made an immediately regretted mistake in the heat of the moment. She consciously chose to ignore him for a week, ten days, whatever. And so far as I can tell, she doesn't seem to feel that bad about it. He notes that "It's been a while," and she's dismissive when she should be sincere.
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I'd just like to add that while I agree that both of them have made their mistakes, I do also feel for them both.
I am really wondering what is going to happen tomorrow now. I barely know how to answer the current poll.
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Nice to see we're back to the woman-blaming-and-man-absolving again. I mean, it's not like Padma and Marten are both adults fully responsible for their feelings and actions in a mutually voluntary relationship. Nope it's all Padma's fault and Marten should be proud of himself. Ugh... :-(
If their roles were reversed and Marten had been the instigator of the fling and then left Padma dry for a week because he was moving out of town and wanted to purge her from his mind, then it would be his fault and she would be the one who deserved to walk away feeling proud. It's not about gender. I even explained that in an earlier post. You sound biased towards women.
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Nice to see we're back to the woman-blaming-and-man-absolving again. I mean, it's not like Padma and Marten are both adults fully responsible for their feelings and actions in a mutually voluntary relationship. Nope it's all Padma's fault and Marten should be proud of himself. Ugh... :-(
I am a filthy liar and an all around bad person, but here I go, posting again. I agree that Padma and Marten BOTH fucked up. The only thing I have to say ins his defense that I can't say in hers is, he made an immediately regretted mistake in the heat of a moment. She consciously chose to ignore him for a week, ten days, whatever. And so far as I can tell, she doesn't seem to feel that bad about it. He notes that "It's been a while," and she's dismissive when she should be sincere.
I didn't read dismissiveness in her claim to have been "packing and stuff," but rather awkward guilty dodginess. I am still working on having major issues with essentially doing what Padma does here, though I've never done it in any sort of calling-boy-about-relationship context since the summer after eighth grade: feeling overwhelmed by emotional conflict and letting time just slip away while I agonize over it. If Padma's anything like me, she constantly felt little spurts of panic and shame over the course of that week, with each passing day working to convince her that she wouldn't be well-received if she called and that she'd already blown it, but this is nothing you can explain as a reason for not having called, and it's nothing you should be able to explain away because when it's in a phone-call-about-relationship context, no matter how you felt while you did it, you inflicted pain and uncertainty on the other person, and that's just not cool. Neither is tersely blowing someone off instead of at least hinting at what's wrong, especially when it will deny both of you closure. Badly done, Marten and Padma. Badly done.
Akima does not sound biased toward women. Seriously? She sounds like she's responding to an overall trend of slut-shaming and woman-blaming that's gone on in past arguments about Marten and Padma's fling. And regardless of gender, I think both sides have behaved badly, as I said above. Lashing out isn't okay just because it feels good in the moment. In fact, we'd probably be even more pissed with Padma if their roles were reversed, because we likely wouldn't have seen the instant remorse, though sometimes we do get to see the interiority of the people on the other end of Marten's phone conversations.
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Nice to see we're back to the woman-blaming-and-man-absolving again. I mean, it's not like Padma and Marten are both adults fully responsible for their feelings and actions in a mutually voluntary relationship. Nope it's all Padma's fault and Marten should be proud of himself. Ugh... :-(
I am a filthy liar and an all around bad person, but here I go, posting again. I agree that Padma and Marten BOTH fucked up. The only thing I have to say ins his defense that I can't say in hers is, he made an immediately regretted mistake in the heat of a moment. She consciously chose to ignore him for a week, ten days, whatever. And so far as I can tell, she doesn't seem to feel that bad about it. He notes that "It's been a while," and she's dismissive when she should be sincere.
I didn't read dismissiveness in her claim to have been "packing and stuff," but rather awkward guilty dodginess. I am still working on having major issues with essentially doing what Padma does here, though I've never done it in any sort of calling-boy-about-relationship context since the summer after eighth grade: feeling overwhelmed by emotional conflict and letting time just slip away while I agonize over it. If Padma's anything like me, she constantly felt little spurts of panic and shame over the course of that week, with each passing day working to convince her that she wouldn't be well-received if she called and that she'd already blown it, but this is nothing you can explain as a reason for not having called, and it's nothing you should be able to explain away because when it's in a phone-call-about-relationship context, no matter how you felt while you did it, you inflicted pain and uncertainty on the other person, and that's just not cool. Neither is tersely blowing someone off instead of at least hinting at what's wrong, especially when it will deny both of you closure. Badly done, Marten and Padma. Badly done.
Oh, you don't have to explain it to me. I'm acutely familiar with that feeling. You know you should've called, but you feel terrible about not calling, so you can't call, but then you feel even worse, and you have to call, but it's been so long there's no way you can face up to that. And then you're put in a situation where you have to see them and you can no longer be evasive. And suddenly the world is ending. I understand. I deal with the exact same thing.
It kind of sucks, right?
That said, I still think Padma could have preempted his predictable rejection by explaining this and giving a heartfelt apology. Which she would've had plenty of time to plan and rehearse. I don't know. Blah blah blah hindsight.
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Marten was passive aggressive here, probably unwise to do it, understandable as hell though. Doras earlier statement about Marten being fucked was pretty much spot on, there's no way this would end cleanly. If Marten did decide to spend a last day with her it probably wouldn't have gone well. There would be a lot of tension and either it would be a kind of frantic 'screw till we can't think' that might be fun but would probably be emotionally draining for both or Marten would get frustrated, tell her how she feels, then she unloads on him, points out how her Grandmothers illness has her stressed, etc. she storms off, he's even more depressed, and neither of them are especially happy. Really, maybe the best thing he could do is see her off, wish her luck and that would be it. The fact is though that this pretty much couldn't end in a way that was happy unless neither of them developed any emotional attachments which seems unlikely.
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Life is always so much messier than we armchair critics like to admit to.
No-one is going to walk away from this episode feeling proud.
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Life is always so much messier than we armchair critics like to admit to.
No-one is going to walk away from this episode feeling proud.
Not even Elliot? Just look at that awesome train wreck he's not a part of! How can he not feel spectacular about that? :laugh:
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I know you were kidding around, but I don't think Elliot would feel at all happy about anything that involves Padma being unhappy.
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I know you were kidding around, but I don't think Elliot would feel at all happy about anything that involves Padma being unhappy.
No, he's a pretty empathetic guy. No one's misery will make him cheerful. Sorry, poor choice for an attempt at levity.
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If their roles were reversed and Marten had been the instigator of the fling
Once again you are assigning the entire responsibility for the fling starting to Padma. It takes two to tango, and Marten grabbed the opportunity to jump Padma's bones. He is not a robot, not a helpless victim, and not a child, but an adult responsible for his actions. It is certainly possible that I am biased towards women, but I am definitely biased against any attempt to ascribe entire responsibility in relationships to women, or absolve men for their entirely voluntary choices, or apply double-standards to the sexuality and behaviour of either gender.
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Readers who are going "yeah bro you show that bitch, you got some spine finally, hurf hurf huuuuurrrrf": you are acting predictably wretched and awful, and I would be disappointed, but honestly I'm not surprised at all
A particular reason that I continue to be impressed by Jeph is the way that he describes realistic people, puts them in realistic situations, and has them make a realistic mess of them. The scenarios obviously speak to a lot of his readers, and some come here to relate their own similar experiences and responses. Some of those responses are better and some are worse than the characters in the comic have managed; but everyone who comes here has the opportunity to learn by seeing and discussing the responses of others. So all are welcome, as long as good manners are maintained, and the boundaries outlined in the rules are not overstepped.
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If their roles were reversed and Marten had been the instigator of the fling
Once again you are assigning the entire responsibility for the fling starting to Padma. It takes two to tango, and Marten grabbed the opportunity to jump Padma's bones. He is not a robot, not a helpless victim, and not a child, but an adult responsible for his actions. It is certainly possible that I am biased towards women, but I am definitely biased against any attempt to ascribe entire responsibility in relationships to women, or absolve men for their entirely voluntary choices, or apply double-standards to the sexuality and behaviour of either gender.
Actually I was ascribing to Padma the entire responsibility for the total cold shoulder treatment of Marten. I see nothing wrong with her actions before that. You're right, Marten's not a robot or a helpless victim or a child. He decided to trust that Padma wouldn't suddenly have second thoughts and run away. She did just that. If their roles were reversed, I'd put the blame on him just as strongly.
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Oh noes, pls don't you shut down teh forums, Mr. Jaques :psyduck:
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Hmmmyeah, I'm not gonna be gentle with Marten here.
Marten, you acted like an asshole. Enjoy your suffering. Like Jeph said, you were doing everything good yesteray and not you just ruin everything. This is why you can't have nice things.
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Maybe, after Padma has left, Marten will relate the events to Faye and Dora, who's reaction will be:
YOU DID WHAT ?!?!?!?!?!
Marten will be severely injured by being blown through the window and across the street by the force of their reaction, but while he recovers in the hospital, he'll have plenty of time to reflect on things, and will be ready for a mature, adult relationship.
Once he gets out of physical therapy, that is.
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Marten will be severely injured by being blown through the window and across the street by the force of their reaction, but while he recovers in the hospital, he'll have plenty of time to reflect on things, and will be ready for a mature, adult relationship.
Once he gets out of physical therapy, that is.
I don't know that he'll need any help beating himself up.
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Actually I was ascribing to Padma the entire responsibility for the total cold shoulder treatment of Marten. I see nothing wrong with her actions before that.
Then why did your earlier post refer to Padma's having "initiated the fling" as having some bearing on how Marten should treat her? You also in an earlier post referred to Padma having "lead him on" which is hardly a positive, or even neutral expression, and it's entirely inaccurate too IMHO.
A particular reason that I continue to be impressed by Jeph is the way that he describes realistic people, puts them in realistic situations, and has them make a realistic mess of them.
I couldn't put it better, so I won't. :-)
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Frankly, it's ok Marten acted like an ass in my mind. Good on him. She put him through hell because she was scared. Now her guilt doesn't get to be absolved by good guy Marten. Maybe she'll learn the lesson that she can't treat people like this anymore and learn to be more responsible with other people's feelings (hopefully enough to overcome her own fears). On the other hand, she may just become even more of a user. Either way, it's not Marten's problem anymore and her feelings were never his responsibility (especially given her disregard of any he might have had). "The Bigger Man" is typically synonymous with "Doormat" in any given situation.
Again, I think his response is perfectly formed given the situation. She has already shown that it is acceptable to avoid and ignore and do without explanation. She doesn't deserve any more than she gives and, frankly, she didn't deserve him answering her call at all. If Marten really wanted to be a real vindictive, passive aggressive ass and to writhe in his own misery, he could've just not answered and left her in the dark. That way, she can know what it's like to not know when you want to. You know, suffer some *real* consequences. Marten may have been an asshole, but at least now she has a better idea of how he actually feels about her and the situation. If there's a next time, Marten may be able to actually verbalize his own feelings then. For now though, this was a way better start than just saying "it's ok, I understand" over and over again and spending any more of your life knowing that people can treat you however they want and you'll just take it for the sake of some "ideal" that erases your own valid feelings.
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You're right, Marten's not a robot
Quiet, you'll spoil the BIG REVELATION, wherein Jeph blows the lid off the comic by revealing that Marten is, in fact, an advanced AI created in secret by Hanner's parents and Marten's mom, programmed for angsty emotional self destruction!
He just doesn't know it yet.
...
Why yes, I haven't slept in several days. How could you tell? :psyduck:
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Ok, my thoughts on this week in general:
Why is Marten the big villain here again? Generally intentionally blowing someone off without explanation for a week is considered to be pretty rude no matter what your relationship, and in this situation I think he's right to assume she was doing that because she lacked the resolve to actually tell him they were through and she was moving back home. I don't accept the explanation that because he consented to them hooking up he also consented to being treated badly.
But on the other hand, I don't really understand how Marten not stalking someone he's sleeping with is passive aggressive either, so I think these past few comics have been a bit off. If they're actually in a committed relationship going to her work might make more sense, but the consensus seems to be that he knew it was just a fling before he left, which makes following her around and demanding she speak to him a pretty bad idea. Lying and saying he's busy now certainly is passive aggressive, but if it is just a fling he's under no obligation to run to her side now when she's been treating him poorly and intentionally putting him on the backburner for a while.
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[ ... ] She put him through hell because she was scared. [ ... ]
Oh yeah, he seems REALLY broken up about it. (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2098)
Even IF it was their last week and he had hoped to spend it moaning and breathing heavily with a gorgeous woman wrapped around him (sry for explicit)... he is not entitled to this level of jack-assery. ESPECIALLY not when Padma was simply caught in an emotional impasse... ~~
[ ... ]
But on the other hand, I don't really understand how Marten not stalking someone he's sleeping with is passive aggressive either, so I think these past few comics have been a bit off. If they're actually in a committed relationship going to her work might make more sense, but the consensus seems to be that he knew it was just a fling before he left, which makes following her around and demanding she speak to him a pretty bad idea. Lying and saying he's busy now certainly is passive aggressive, but if it is just a fling he's under no obligation to run to her side now when she's been treating him poorly and intentionally putting him on the backburner for a while.
First griefing about her not calling him, her then calling him and him rejecting her final invitation should be the definition of passive aggressive. oO
He tries to make a point that neither he nor she has any clue about because neither of them is sure about their feelings toward the other. That is either escapism, projection or passive aggressivity.
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First griefing about her not calling him, her then calling him and him rejecting her final invitation should be the definition of passive aggressive. oO
Obviously he's being passive aggressive now and I agreed with that in my post, but the gang was accusing him of being passive aggressive even earlier, when he was waiting for her to actually return his calls. According to them, it was passive aggressive to not corner her at work, which is pretty crazy in my mind. If you just started hooking up with someone you don't barge into their workplace to demand to know why they're not returning your calls. That is just not kosher in reality.
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A particular reason that I continue to be impressed by Jeph is the way that he describes realistic people, puts them in realistic situations, and has them make a realistic mess of them.
Thank you.
Thank you so, so much.
They both messed up. Padma distanced herself from Marten for a lot longer than was reasonable, and Marten decided to give her the cold shoulder on an occasion when they could otherwise have parted on relatively good terms. They both messed up.
Yes, it was stupid of them both, Padma because she specifically stayed longer to spend more time with Marten, Marten because his hypocritical actions have now made him no better than her where before he was trying to be reasonable about it. They therefore share the blame for the situation they are in now.
But it is a silly idea for us to try and judge which one of them has the bigger share of the blame because, at the end of the day, they both messed up.
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...This is gonna be one of those weeks for the WCDT, isn't it?
:psyduck:
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Ok, my thoughts on this week in general:
Why is Marten the big villain here again? Generally intentionally blowing someone off without explanation for a week is considered to be pretty rude no matter what your relationship, and in this situation I think he's right to assume she was doing that because she lacked the resolve to actually tell him they were through and she was moving back home. I don't accept the explanation that because he consented to them hooking up he also consented to being treated badly.
But on the other hand, I don't really understand how Marten not stalking someone he's sleeping with is passive aggressive either, so I think these past few comics have been a bit off. If they're actually in a committed relationship going to her work might make more sense, but the consensus seems to be that he knew it was just a fling before he left, which makes following her around and demanding she speak to him a pretty bad idea. Lying and saying he's busy now certainly is passive aggressive, but if it is just a fling he's under no obligation to run to her side now when she's been treating him poorly and intentionally putting him on the backburner for a while.
its all just so out of character for him.
someone like whats his name, his buddy that did the CIA thing once upon a time, i could see not getting the same reaction if he had acted the same way in the same situation.
marten is just expected to roll over and take it each and every time, by both the characters and us, the readers. making any sort of stand, especially one like this that has such emotional ramifications for multiple people, takes everyone out of their comfort zone.
i say good on him. he's grown up alot since his days of moping over his crush on Faye. Padma's behavior was completely unacceptable, he doesn't know her well enough to be absolutely sure of her reasons behind it, and there is nothing that would indicate she wouldn't pull the same kind of thing again. could he have been more gentle about it? sure... but why? you get what you pay for, and this is what padma earned through her callousness. maybe it was unintentional on her part, but that's irrelevant. when you're in a relationship you can't be so self absorbed that doing something like she did without considering the other person involved.
it only proves the relationship had nothing going for it except a nice time in the sack, and that's not enough to justify taking the risk of future emotional turmoil.
nobody wants to be used and thrown away, and if i were in marten's shoes, that's exactly how i would've felt... and today is exactly how i would've responded. so yea, once again i say, good on him.
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I dont know why, but reading your post I just had one of those random bad thoughts that Padma might've been with someone else over that week... and now I am contemplating as to who it might have been.
The obvious answer being the least probable methinks. °O
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...are you meaning to suggest, dear sir, that she decided to jump Elliot's bones over this past week?
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I was going to comment on today's comic, but then I felt an invisible arm pulling me back, saying "Leave it, it's not worth it!"
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If this is really it...and she leaves without them talking/seeing each other, he/they won't get closure.
Here's a scenario...he meets another girl, they have a nice vibe going, and Padma shows back up and apologizes and admits that she has feelings for him, and freaked out because she thought he didn't feel the same way (2091 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2091)), but she just can't stop thinking that they had a good thing going. Granny is better/dead and she's back. Do the still have a chance? Can they start over and try this for real?
This'll bring up a whole bunch of unresolved stuff for our boy, who'll now have to choose between the 'was she the one?' and new girl.
...or not. :-D
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Granny is better dead
FYP :evil:
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I read today's comic and felt all, "Aw! Now I've got to wait all weekend!" and had a thought out comment to make but it all left my head when I remembered it's Thursday.
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Personally I think Marten did the right thing, albeit for all the wrong reasons. There was never anything to gain for him, unless he could move with Padma, or change her mind about moving, or would have a chance at a long distance relationship that would result in Padma coming back after the issue with her grandma is resolved. As the chance for any of these options have been very slim from the beginning, and Padma blocking him only made it worse, he should not agree to "farewell sex" or whatever you want to call that.
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Noooo not the dark side. Stay good Martin, stay good!
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False dichotomy: Marten either forgets what Padma did altogether and crawls back to her, or he does what he did in today's comic.
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I agree with those that are saying that Padma is in the wrong because she specifically said she'd extend her stay to spend more time with Marten and then completely blew him off. That was NOT cool. And...packing? Ok, packing is a good reason to not physically get together with someone, but she can't really be saying that she couldn't pick her phone up because her hands were full of clothing, right???
On the other hand, Marten did not approach this well at all either. He could have been more direct, rather than saying "it's been a while". You say that to someone you know that you run into in the grocery store. Not someone who has been avoiding you and all of your attempts to communicate. He didn't delve deeper into this because it would have meant that he had to sack up and talk about feelings, putting himself at risk for rejection. He was angry, and acted out of anger. That is never the best choice.
In the end though, I think we're all putting way too much pressure on either of them to do the right thing because we wanted them to work out, we wanted something happy to come of this and we wanted to see a glimpse of a quasi-happy ending where everyone involved has grown because of what they went through. We wanted a relationship to form between them...and one arguably did. But it was not a "relationship" relationship. They were acquaintances with benefits because they weren't nearly close enough to be considered friends.
No, they absolutely did not give each other the respect and decency that either of them deserved, but we have to look at it at face value- for Padma, this was a last hurrah before she moves a few thousand miles away to deal with some heavy stuff. For Marten....this was a rebound. Plain and simple. They may not have gotten the most out of the situation because of their reactions, but they don't owe each other anything.
Weeeee, post #100 :-D
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...are you meaning to suggest, dear sir, that she decided to jump Elliot's bones over this past week?
Good gravy, why, that was what I meant to deliver as the least probable event. Though, as it appears, does seem to be the very first thing to jump to mind, doesnn't it?
[ everything he/she said before this ]
No, they absolutely did not give each other the respect and decency that either of them deserved, but we have to look at it at face value- for Padma, this was a last hurrah before she moves a few thousand miles away to deal with some heavy stuff. For Marten....this was a rebound. Plain and simple. They may not have gotten the most out of the situation because of their reactions, but they don't owe each other anything.
[ ... ]
Your kind of level-headed gentleman greatly grinds my gears....
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If this is really it...and she leaves without them talking/seeing each other, he/they won't get closure.
Here's a scenario...he meets another girl, they have a nice vibe going, and Padma shows back up and apologizes and admits that she has feelings for him, and freaked out because she thought he didn't feel the same way (2091 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2091)), but she just can't stop thinking that they had a good thing going. Granny is better/dead and she's back. Do the still have a chance? Can they start over and try this for real?
This'll bring up a whole bunch of unresolved stuff for our boy, who'll now have to choose between the 'was she the one?' and new girl.
...or not. :-D
closure is overrated. sometimes its completely unneeded. closure is for people who have regrets. of course, marten being marten, that's a pretty sure bet.
closure can also be accomplished by yourself, simply by coming to terms with yourself and throwing those regrets to the wind and saying that what's done is done, its not worth the angst and turmoil to dwell.
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[ everything he/she said before this ]
No, they absolutely did not give each other the respect and decency that either of them deserved, but we have to look at it at face value- for Padma, this was a last hurrah before she moves a few thousand miles away to deal with some heavy stuff. For Marten....this was a rebound. Plain and simple. They may not have gotten the most out of the situation because of their reactions, but they don't owe each other anything.
[ ... ]
Your kind of level-headed gentleman greatly grinds my gears....
I'm a she. :-D And I'm sorry I've upset you with my lack of upset.
Umm...
UGH! MARTEN IS SUCH AN IDIOT, HE COULDA HIT THAT AGAIN!
is that better? :-P
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One comic: two pages: two Author comments: one minor flamewar. :laugh:
<ilovethisthreadSOMUCH.jpg>
Okay, so both Padma and Marten kinda screwed up. And Marten, at the very least, can recognize the line between doormat, stalker, and prick. In this case with Marten, it's win some, lose some: he *immediately* recognized he'd been a jerk.
But yeah, I don't buy this whole bullsh-- about how "Padma led him on" or is the "instigator" or, in general, zomg sinful backstabbing temptress. Marten and Padma are both consenting adults and that's that. If anything, it's been Marten who's shown more general self-awareness than Padma: although from experience, I know damn well how family illness and mortality can really screw around with ordinary run-of-the-mill social priorities.
Two interesting little sidelights, though:
1) Faye and Dora might *think* they're helping out indie-boy, but as a matter of fact, they weren't.
2) Elliot, of all people, may very well come up and belt Marten into next week. After all that Elliot's done-- his confession, his getting-over-it, his admonition to Marten to not always ascribe the worst to people -- and then Marten was a childish jerk to Padma right at the end there.
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Maybe Martin is simply expressing regret that it HAS to be this way.
Maybe this is the only thing he feels he can do. Maybe he HAD to answer and give her a chance to explain.
What happens in her answer? "Oh you're not nearly as important as you thought or wanted to be, but guess what? You're good enough for one more fun fling for me before I leave."
So he gave the best answer he could have. He could have gotten supremely pissed at her and she would have deserved it for avoiding him, but as has been said, SHE isn't responsible for what he wants out of the relationship. So. She pretty much as said she never wanted it to go far; so she got what she wanted, all except a good-bye shag. If she didn't want to leave a bad taste in his mouth, then she shouldn't have avoided him for a week.
If, however, she wanted to see if he would care enough try very hard to make things work - to find out if she's more than just an affair to him - then he has failed. Utterly.
The fun part? Only some chix do this, and then surely not every time; so you never know if it's a test until after the fact. You could easily have gone too far and become the creepy dude.
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[...]
2) Elliot, of all people, may very well come up and belt Marten into next week. After all that Elliot's done-- his confession, his getting-over-it, his admonition to Marten to not always ascribe the worst to people -- and then Marten was a childish jerk to Padma right at the end there.
[...]
What the ... ?!?!? I dont get at all why you bring ELLIOT into this. This is between Marten and Padma. Nobody else has any say.
Elliot asked Padma out, she rejected him, end of story.
Maybe Martin is simply expressing regret that it HAS to be this way. [...]
No, he says "Why did I do that ?". Thats not expressing regret, thats expressing confusion.
And I dont think he did it for the right reasons, but he did the right thing.
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[...]
2) Elliot, of all people, may very well come up and belt Marten into next week. After all that Elliot's done-- his confession, his getting-over-it, his admonition to Marten to not always ascribe the worst to people -- and then Marten was a childish jerk to Padma right at the end there.
[...]
What the ... ?!?!? I dont get at all why you bring ELLIOT into this. This is between Marten and Padma. Nobody else has any say.
Elliot asked Padma out, she rejected him, end of story.
Elliot may be over it but may also feel somewhat protective towards Padma. Dude, don't get bent outta shape...Jeph will go wherever the heck he wants to go: I'm pretty sure he'll leave us all well-and-truly hanging on Friday.
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If, however, she wanted to see if he would care enough try very hard to make things work - to find out if she's more than just an affair to him - then he has failed. Utterly.
The fun part? Only some chix do this, and then surely not every time; so you never know if it's a test until after the fact. You could easily have gone too far and become the creepy dude.
If she WAS trying to put Marten through the test, it is a blessing in disguise that he failed. I used to be one of those girls (because I used to be 18). Most women worth pursuing a relationship with will learn in due time that games are nothing but trouble.
his admonition to Marten to not always ascribe the worst to people -- and then Marten was a childish jerk to Padma right at the end there.
I completely forgot about that....oh man...it HAS to tie into Jeph's plan somehow. It just HAS to. :psyduck:
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If, however, she wanted to see if he would care enough try very hard to make things work - to find out if she's more than just an affair to him - then he has failed. Utterly.
The fun part? Only some chix do this, and then surely not every time; so you never know if it's a test until after the fact. You could easily have gone too far and become the creepy dude.
this is why i HATE games.
us guys are generally pretty oblivious and take things at face value, or at least act on things based on face value... all these hidden meanings and whatnot... yea, im dam lucky i found someone who is willing to straight up say what she means and wants (most of the time), otherwise im pretty sure id end dying alone and getting eaten by my dogs.
If, however, she wanted to see if he would care enough try very hard to make things work - to find out if she's more than just an affair to him - then he has failed. Utterly.
The fun part? Only some chix do this, and then surely not every time; so you never know if it's a test until after the fact. You could easily have gone too far and become the creepy dude.
If she WAS trying to put Marten through the test, it is a blessing in disguise that he failed. I used to be one of those girls (because I used to be 18). Most women worth pursuing a relationship with will learn in due time that games are nothing but trouble.
after years of psyche and sociology classes, a few marriage counseling sessions, growing up surrounded by women and nearly ten years of marriage... i still can't figure out what makes some women think the games are worth it. or even what drives them to play the games they do.
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What the ... ?!?!? I dont get at all why you bring ELLIOT into this. This is between Marten and Padma. Nobody else has any say.
Elliot asked Padma out, she rejected him, end of story.
Didn't you notice that Elliot is a large, muscular man? And everyone knows that large muscular men are COMPLETELY incapable of expressing themselves (or their emotional state) in any manner that does not involve punching. :roll:
At least that's what people in this forum seem to keep rooting for. Last time it was "Oh no, Elliot might find out that Marten and Padma hooked up! He's gonna PUNCH!" Now it's "Oh no, Elliot might find out that Marten and Padma aren't hooking up anymore! He's gonna punch!"
Honestly it just gets a little annoying that people keep just assuming Elliot is some big, dumb idiot who just goes around punching things.
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@NotSoAverageJoe:
Amen, man, amen.
Women who play games do nothing but confuse the hell out of guys at best and just piss them off at worst.
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Jeph owes me a new work desk. My old one ended up in two pieces from all the times my head whacked it.
Marten, why would you do that? You did so well yesterday, and this time...
I hope J^2 will be kind enough to end the week on a positive note with some other characters. Like bunnies or something.
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I just had to register because I wanted to give my two cents about this whole situation...
I think that Marten was in the right about this. He could've been more diplomatic about it, but to what end? Padma was never going to stay, Marten was never going to move, and she'll never be back. What is the point about making each other feel better about the whole thing? They'll most likely never encounter each other again in this life and by burning the bridge (and salting the earth near said bridge) both of them can move on with their lives. Marten has had his rebound from Dora and can find a relationship that has an actual chance and Padma doesn't have a reason to consider the folly of moving back.
Even if they had met earlier as Padma had wished, the end result would still be the same. She'd be moving back, Marten wouldn't (or shouldn't), and long-distance relationships simply aren't worth the trouble. This relationship was doomed from the get-go. In fact, it's even better that they hadn't met earlier as neither would be in the difficult position that it would put them in.
Now, if Mr. Jacques wanted to be ebil, he'd have Padma have gotten pregnant from their first encounter and this last week of silence was her realizing it/finding out. :evil:
Thank you for listening.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOGGmhmp5ds
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If, however, she wanted to see if he would care enough try very hard to make things work - to find out if she's more than just an affair to him - then he has failed. Utterly.
The fun part? Only some chix do this, and then surely not every time; so you never know if it's a test until after the fact. You could easily have gone too far and become the creepy dude.
If she WAS trying to put Marten through the test, it is a blessing in disguise that he failed. I used to be one of those girls (because I used to be 18). Most women worth pursuing a relationship with will learn in due time that games are nothing but trouble.
after years of psyche and sociology classes, a few marriage counseling sessions, growing up surrounded by women and nearly ten years of marriage... i still can't figure out what makes some women think the games are worth it. or even what drives them to play the games they do.
At the risk of offending anyone here that engages in said games, I'll come out and say it- it's usually due to mistrust, low self esteem or a perceived lack of sufficient attention. It's all about self gratification. If he does THIS when i say THIS, then he really loves me and is worth my affection. If he doesn't say/do what he's supposed to, he's a big effing jerk.
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What is the point about making each other feel better about the whole thing?
There is no benefit in making others feel bad; but feeling better - well, don't you prefer feeling better to feeling worse?
They'll most likely never encounter each other again in this life
When you've lived as long as I have you'll have realised that this is not a reliable assumption! Try to part with people on terms which make the possibility of meeting again less nerve-racking, and you'll save those unexpected embarrassments.
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Marten, why would you do that? You did so well yesterday, and this time...
Damn it, Scott, you were doing so well last night...
And so the world keeps turning...
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Didn't you notice that Elliot is a large, muscular man? And everyone knows that large muscular men are COMPLETELY incapable of expressing themselves (or their emotional state) in any manner that does not involve punching. :roll:
At least that's what people in this forum seem to keep rooting for. Last time it was "Oh no, Elliot might find out that Marten and Padma hooked up! He's gonna PUNCH!" Now it's "Oh no, Elliot might find out that Marten and Padma aren't hooking up anymore! He's gonna punch!"
Honestly it just gets a little annoying that people keep just assuming Elliot is some big, dumb idiot who just goes around punching things.
Hells no. Elliot is the character who has said one of the most advanced-zen, positive-outlook things on this strip, about not always ascribing the worst to people.
It's just that Jeph has made Marten's fear of getting punched into, well, a punchline (once, while getting dragged away for what turned out to be a sob session; and another, right after the first hookup). It's like a Narusegawa punch: it's SUPPOSED to be funny. It's not like random violence hasn't been featured before: the sadistic vespa-bot ballsac attack, or "Owls? Owls."
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There is no benefit in making others feel bad; but feeling better - well, don't you prefer feeling better to feeling worse?
She made him feel bad with her treatment and didn't even say, "I'm sorry I didn't respond.". Granted there wasn't much of a chance, but still that should've been the first words out of her mouth. Making someone feel bad can be "good" in a sense if it gives them the incentive to not do what caused the negative response again, IMO. It can backfire, I know.
The only thing that would've made either one feel better is the knowledge that she would be back. There was no option there for either one to feel good about the situation. Either they say to themselves, "She/he was a dick, I'm moving on." or they sit and mope about how unfair it all is.
When you've lived as long as I have you'll have realised that this is not a reliable assumption! Try to part with people on terms which make the possibility of meeting again less nerve-racking, and you'll save those unexpected embarrassments.
If she was only moving up-state or something, I could see it, but she's moving across country and has no real reason to move back. The likelihood of them meeting again is close to nil unless one or the other initiates contact prior.
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I don't have the years or the experience of PWHodges, but just so he doesn't feel like he's the only one pissing into the wind here ... the "f**k 'em, I'm never going to see 'em again" attitude is expensive and, more often than you'd think, mistaken.
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Padma broke a date that she had agreed to.
Not going out with someone is an inarguable right. Breaking an agreement is something different.
Though I wouldn't go so far as Wil's attitude toward not breaking dates.
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I mean, I would do the same thing. Only I wouldn't kick myself for doing it afterward. Dudes, if a girl doesn't return your calls after 3 (or 4) tries, shesjustnotthatintoyou. Ladies, amiright?
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If she WAS trying to put Marten through the test, it is a blessing in disguise that he failed. I used to be one of those girls (because I used to be 18). Most women worth pursuing a relationship with will learn in due time that games are nothing but trouble.
I am 18 and I do not play games. I have, however, been in a relationship with a guy who played games to a traumatic extent, and got away with it because of this very sexist trope. i.e. My peers all thought I was the one doing the ignoring (etc.) and I was blamed for the break-up. I received no support whatsoever, and the grade 11 section on my resume is empty.
http://thecurrentconscience.com/blog/2011/09/12/a-message-to-women-from-a-man-you-are-not-%E2%80%9Ccrazy%E2%80%9D/ (http://thecurrentconscience.com/blog/2011/09/12/a-message-to-women-from-a-man-you-are-not-%E2%80%9Ccrazy%E2%80%9D/) My apologies if I'm being oversensitive, but the gendered language around this really bothers me.
Maybe typically, or in the most widely publicised circles, it is usually the woman who plays games. I pin this on old-fashioned gender roles. We're so often taught that men want the thrill of the chase, that if you are predictable they will get bored etc. So I don't think it's for completely selfish reasons that women do this, but rather because they're afraid of losing their guy. It's good to hear from men that this notion is misguided.
Once again, I think this boils down to personal experience. I used an example that relates to what was happening in the comic. Padma could have been playing a game to get Marten to chase her, so I added my comment based on my experience of females playing games. I used to live with a girl who would call her boyfriend over 10 times a day (possibly more if he didn't pick up) then stop altogether and say "I know he's gonna call now that I've stopped because he thinks something bad happened to me". I've known plenty of people (both male and female) that used a variety of these games to manipulate someone else and eventually learned that they are not worth playing. Sometimes they can be exhilarating but they do nothing to move the relationship forward. I apologize if I offended you in any way. This phrase: Most women worth pursuing a relationship with will learn in due time that games are nothing but trouble can also be turned around to say the same thing about men. I've known plenty of men who played even dirtier games than women. Everyone has different reasons for doing so, I listed mine. It really depends on each persons' background and what they've seen "work" or "not work". Obviously, if someone sees manipulation work for someone else to get what they want out of the other party, they may end up doing similar things (perhaps even subconsciously). I'm not disagreeing that games can be played by both sides or even that they don't play into stereotypes (in fact, I'm sure they do just that). I can't even count how many times I've witnessed the "Can't-call-the-day-after-a-date-will-look-desperate" thing- from both sides.
I read the article you linked to....but I can't say that I agree with it. For someone against sweeping generalizations, the author used quite a few of them. The article seemed to pin emotional and verbal abuse as a common occurrence in all women's lives and I just don't buy it. If you have a problem with the way someone says something, approach them in a way that is most comfortable for you. Not everyone can know immediately if something they say is hurtful and it is our responsibility to let others know when they cross a line that they might not have known was there. Different people react differently to certain things- male, female, both or neither. Sure, there are people with steamroller personalities that just won't give a damn, but if the person is genuinely interested in your well-being, they'll listen and reevaluate their approach. If you really want a good read on emotions and their connection to language, check out Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg.
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The hilarious (@#$% terrifying) thing about this strip is that so many of us turn into that psychotic ex who overanalyzed every single thing as if we were ourselves living the lives of the characters. A testament to Jeph's talent, certainly, but also not healthy for anyone.
The problem with what we call overanalysis is that it really doesn't exist. Analysis is, by definition, breaking something down--once it can't be broken down anymore, further work reveals nothing more than what you already know. What we refer to as overanalysis is just misanalysis: the attempt to analyze the situation without having all the facts at hand (which is related to what Orson Welles said about acting: "what we call over-acting is really just false acting"), which results in greater misunderstandings and wild theories that serve no valid purpose (cf. any government on Earth).
We don't know what's up with Padma--while all the speculation is a fascinating experiment in exploring all the possible things going through Marten's mind, it's also, as I pointed out above, basically just serving as practice for the cognitive behaviours with which so many of us will inevitably destroy our real-life relationships later on down the road.
Worst of these behaviours, frankly, is the resurgence of the Dora-breakup-storyline-era argument over whether or not one character or another is 'right.' Marten's a jackass. We know this. Most of us love him in spite of it and also for entertaining us with it (we've all had that one trainwreck friend in school who was more trouble than he/she was worth, but just provided way too much entertainment value to actually break with--and if you didn't have one, you were that friend). Padma's also a jackass. Same deal. They're emotionally retarded idiots because they're written honestly and because, really, if they were perfect, this would probably be the most mind-numbingly repetitive webcomic in the world; the entire strip would be about Pintsize and his racist/sexist/sexual/otherwise-offensive antics and the responses of all the healthy perfect people to those antics over and over and over and over and over and over and over again (in other words, it would be Least I Could Do--rim shot).
Nobody's 'right' here. We've all got baggage (some more than others) and our ability to identify with the characters and/or situation is perhaps adding that baggage onto the comic's situation, where it doesn't belong. Padma isn't a heartless bitch--at worst, she's confused about her feelings and, obviously, gotten to a point where she feels confident enough to contact Marten so they can say good-bye, if not sort things out (at best, she was trapped under something heavy for a week and desperately trying to reach her phone, which was just out of reach). Marten, likewise, isn't a heartless bastard--he's protecting himself, albeit at a moment when he'd probably be happier later if he didn't.
Moreover, this isn't the last comic foreverandeveramen. Marten did something thoughtlessly today and we've already had it set up that he's going to regret it--and what he does about that regret (as well as when he does it) is going to be very interesting. We haven't seen the last of Padma or this storyline, so, like when your best friend broke up with that stupid whore that no one really liked anyway, man (to whom he's now been married for eight years), it's probably best not to be making with the wild (and cruel) speculations.
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Padma broke a date that she had agreed to.
Sure; but there has to be allowance for that, even though the reasons might not always be good. She had deferred the date (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2093) in any case (perhaps a warning sign already), and when it came to it, she called (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2094) to make her excuses rather than just leaving him in the lurch. It would have been better if they'd talked about the real reason (which I have suggested, but proof of which is yet to come, if at all); talking is virtually always better than not talking, but some (most?) people really do find it hard - I know.
What we refer to as overanalysis is just misanalysis: the attempt to analyze the situation without having all the facts at hand
This leads to many misunderstandings and disagreements on the basis of nothing at all. See also Jeph's comment quoted in the next post.
We've all got baggage (some more than others) and our ability to identify with the characters and/or situation is perhaps adding that baggage onto the comic's situation, where it doesn't belong.
This accounts for most of the posts that lead to trouble, I think.
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Worst of these behaviours, frankly, is the resurgence of the Dora-breakup-storyline-era argument over whether or not one character or another is 'right.'
The discussion this time is incomparably better, though. That one was a train wreck releasing toxic chemicals, and will NOT happen again.
Jeph did say once that he's never written a conflict where one character was entirely in the right (which is good writing, btw).
"I don't care if people overanalyze things. I mean, I think it's stupid, and they're wrong 99% of the time, but that's kind of what forums are FOR."
I think part of the reaction is that we wish the imaginary people well, want them to be happy, and are exasperated when they do things that aren't in their interests.
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Nobody's right here.
... Frozenpeas' typically excellent and insightful post boiled down to its essential bits. Also true for the comic.
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I would point out that Jeph's comment about thinking of closing the forums was based on a single remark, and that the discussion that followed that has been reasonably sensible. It was a bit sad to see that several of the tweets responding to him were clearly based on knowledge of this forum in 2010 and not since.
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Yeah it's kind of sad that he would stumble into the forums at the exact wrong moment..
..not completely truthful, I know. But still.
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I still think Padma kept herself away from Marten for fear of growing too fond of him before she leaves. And I think she excused herself by thinking it was better for both of them.
I mean, packing, seriously? What kind of an excuse is this? For one thing, she should have anticipated the time it would take her. But even if she had been too distracted for anticipating it, she could have asked Marten for help with it. It would have been spending some times together, even if it was bittersweet.
Assuming this, at the last moment, she decided she had to say a proper goodbye. By the way, the only involvement of Elliot in this that I can think of is his telling her it was mean to do that to Marten. Putting some (semi-)external perspective in her train of thought.
As for Marten's reaction, well, he's not a saint, he can be a prick when in pain, he can act out of resent when taken off-guard. Given time, he usually wrestles himself out of hard feelings. But most of the time, he does his best to be a kind guy. In a way, he acts a lot like a struggling Boddhisattva.
So yeah, both of them fucked up, Padma out of Fear, Marten out of Pain or Anger (or both).
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The hilarious (@#$% terrifying) thing about this strip is that so many of us turn into that psychotic ex who overanalyzed every single thing as if we were ourselves living the lives of the characters. A testament to Jeph's talent, certainly, but also not healthy for anyone.
If it still existed, I would introduce you to a little comic called "Penny & Aggie"...
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Oh, and given that it's not Something*Positive, I still have hope for a... satisfactory ending, at least.
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Oh, and given that it's not Something*Positive, I still have hope for a... satisfactory ending, at least.
I actually like Something Positive, if the endings are sad there's at least some levity to it. With this one, it seems more like salt being rubbed into wounds.
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Personally, I think the real problem is that neither Marten, nor Padma, are being honest about their feelings about each other, or their feelings in general.
I think it's safe to say that the real reason that Padma didn't call isn't because she was "too busy packing." Something has been troubling her. Back at this comic, (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2091) it was pretty clear that something was bothering her, (though Marten didn't pick up on it) and she's probably been troubled ever since.
Similarly, Marten isn't being honest about his feelings. He could have said today that he felt hurt by the fact that she didn't call. It wouldn't have to be an attack or accusation or anything, just an honest, assertive statement about his feelings.
In fact, all of this angst he's been feeling could probably have been headed off back at his last phone call with Padma in this comic. (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2094) We find out from this comic (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2095) that she said that she's "feeling down." Speaking for myself, if someone I cared about told me they were feeling down, my response would not be, "okay, bye." It would be more like, "What's wrong? Do you want to talk about it?" I would acknowledge and respect their feelings and maybe try to help cheer them up. That's the point where Marten started handling things badly and it's just gone downhill from there.
Of course, in my experience, most people have difficulty with that kind of emotional expression and most people want to avoid that kind of confrontation, so all in all, I'd say this is a realistic portrayal of everyone's actions and reactions. Bravo, Jeph, for writing this so well! :)
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@lepetitfromage
I used your quote because it was the first in a long line of women-do-this comments. I wasn't expecting anyone to read my mind, I was merely illustrating the personal consequences of this kind of sexism, because I believe male privilege exists. Women experience that to different extents, for sure.
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Contrary to Jeph's opinion, Marten did the right thing on both days.
For whatever reason, Padma not only avoided him during her last week there, she didn't even try to explain. Maybe she was feeling stressed, or sad, or crazy busy, or some other crises arose. It may be perfectly understandable and unavoidable, but the burden of explanation is on her.
She left him in the dark until the last possible minute, then she expected him to drop everything (including his self respect) and go see her.
Marten shouldn't do anything, and definitely needs to move on. I do think Padma owes him another phone call to apologize or explain, but in the long run it doesn't really matter.
As for Marten, he knew she was a flake from the start and is just reaping what was sown. If there were one word I'd use to describe Padma's character it would be "oblivious." He should not be surprised that she's bulldozed his feelings without thinking twice about it.
She's not a good romantic match for him or probably for anyone at this point. Marten needs to either be a bit more like his mom and realize that sometimes sex is just sex, or learn to avoid sex-based relationships altogether.
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then she expected him to drop everything (including his self respect) and go see her.
Why would seeing her again have meant losing his self respect? Has he not actually lost self respect by doing something which he himself thinks was wrong?
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If there were one word I'd use to describe Padma's character it would be "oblivious."
Nail on the head. Padma has displayed a general lack of empathy or ability to infer based on peoples' actions since the was introduced. She's not necessarily selfish, she's just very self-absorbed a lot of the time, it seems.
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For whatever reason, Padma not only avoided him during her last week there, she didn't even try to explain.
I think she tried to not so much to explain per se, as let him know that she was sad (2095 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2095))...he just didn't see it as a queue to have 'the conversation.'
He instead interpreted it as a blow off, and Padma probably thought he didn't care enough to ask. Maybe she figured he was only interested in being around her when she wanted to 'have fun.' I can't blame either of them for more than not being straight forward about their feelings, but I think we've pretty much established that. :-)
Um....colour me daft, but did I miss Jeph threatening to close the forum? Was that recently, or back-in-the-day?
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Check his twitter today (https://twitter.com/#!/jephjacques/status/157343099381760000) (see the surrounding tweets for explanation - also this post (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,27751.msg1072025.html#msg1072025)).
In fact the discussion has remained fairly sensible, instead of collapsing into a putrid writhing heap as he probably envisioned thinking back to the breakup period.
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Check his twitter today (https://twitter.com/#!/jephjacques/status/157343099381760000) (see the surrounding tweets for explanation - also this post (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,27751.msg1072025.html#msg1072025)).
In fact the discussion has remained fairly sensible, instead of collapsing into a putrid writhing heap as he probably envisioned thinking back to the breakup period.
I want that background for a desktop image.
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Check his twitter today (https://twitter.com/#!/jephjacques/status/157343099381760000) (see the surrounding tweets for explanation - also this post (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,27751.msg1072025.html#msg1072025)).
In fact the discussion has remained fairly sensible, instead of collapsing into a putrid writhing heap as he probably envisioned thinking back to the breakup period.
Aaaaaaaah.....thanks. That clears it up. I did see his post here in the forum, but haven't checked twitter in ages. Appreciate the heads up. I think he's been more upset in the past. I suspect (hope) we'll be safe! :-)
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The hilarious (@#$% terrifying) thing about this strip is that so many of us turn into that psychotic ex who overanalyzed every single thing as if we were ourselves living the lives of the characters. A testament to Jeph's talent, certainly, but also not healthy for anyone.
It may be cathartic for some readers, who may have something they've always wanted to talk about--or rather, have always needed to hear an alternative perspective from a relative stranger whom they may see as relatively unbiased. But should this subforum be for that cause? (...Is there an alternative? Yes.)
The problem with what we call overanalysis is that it really doesn't exist. Analysis is, by definition, breaking something down--once it can't be broken down anymore, further work reveals nothing more than what you already know. What we refer to as overanalysis is just misanalysis: the attempt to analyze the situation without having all the facts at hand (which is related to what Orson Welles said about acting: "what we call over-acting is really just false acting"), which results in greater misunderstandings and wild theories that serve no valid purpose (cf. any government on Earth).
Analysis in its purest form, perhaps, but really, who's to judge what serves no purpose? Most people prefer not to break something down to its basic building blocks because it misses the inherent connection between ideas. I.e., we analyze ice and understand that it's hydrogen, oxygen and energy...skipping past the more important revelation that it's frozen water. On a planet, in a solar system, one of quadrillions created by an all-knowing dark matter dachshund.
We could "overanalyze" this strip to mean that Jeph was secretly fearing spending time on vacation, but that might be way more interesting to discuss than "oh, Marten said this in comic 1132, therefore he's still a douche." And interesting thoughts are a good, usually.
Nobody's 'right' here. We've all got baggage (some more than others) and our ability to identify with the characters and/or situation is perhaps adding that baggage onto the comic's situation, where it doesn't belong.
But isn't that sort of the entire point of literature? To engage in such behavior and then realize that maybe you shouldn't, and grow a little bit?
As for no one being 'right'...such would seem to be the case if one believes in moral relativism or that the characters--not being real people--cannot be right or wrong. Which I would disagree with.
We haven't seen the last of Padma or this storyline, so, like when your best friend broke up with that stupid whore that no one really liked anyway, man (to whom he's now been married for eight years), it's probably best not to be making with the wild (and cruel) speculations.
"If the world were good for nothing else, it is a fine subject for speculation."
I agree that people can go overboard, but often they don't, even if they seem to be sinking. Lamemetaphorlol
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Contrary to Jeph's opinion, Marten did the right thing on both days.
For whatever reason, Padma not only avoided him during her last week there, she didn't even try to explain. Maybe she was feeling stressed, or sad, or crazy busy, or some other crises arose. It may be perfectly understandable and unavoidable, but the burden of explanation is on her.
She left him in the dark until the last possible minute, then she expected him to drop everything (including his self respect) and go see her.
Marten shouldn't do anything, and definitely needs to move on. I do think Padma owes him another phone call to apologize or explain, but in the long run it doesn't really matter.
It's been said before, but it bears repeating -- why do some people assume that the only options for Marten are to either be a doormat or to totally shut her down? There are other options open to him.
For example, he could have stayed on the phone and and insisted on the full explanation which you yourself have claimed she owed her, in the same breath as you proclaimed that he did the right thing in blowing her off, no less. Or he could have gone over there and demanded it in person, which in my opinion would have been the best option of all.
You are insisting that he did the right thing even though he effectively refused to demand such an explanation.
Honestly, your position is quite confounding.
Forumgoers (well, a handful of you), Marten is not a "villian" here, nor is Padma some kind of a horrible person. They are both perfectly normal, good people who were placed in an emotional, even stressful, situation and did arguably dumb things. I can understand how this story would have touched a nerve for some people who may have been in a similar situation. But I am trying to separate the sin from the sinner.
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then she expected him to drop everything (including his self respect) and go see her.
Why would seeing her again have meant losing his self respect? Has he not actually lost self respect by doing something which he himself thinks was wrong?
It's the "Come when I call" mentality. Going to her when she called, but her not responding to his calls is pretty much a puppy dog response. Had she shown any interest in that missing week of getting in touch with him, it wouldn't be cause for loss of self-respect. She only wants to deal with him on her terms and to accept that without showing her that there is a price to pay for her actions smacks of meekness and a lack of self-respect.
He may not like what he did and wonders why he did it, but I imagine that he did not lose respect for himself.
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Coming soon: screaming long-distance rant from a very, VERY angry Padma's grandmother. Because I expect her to be just about as awesome as Marten's mom, even on death's doorstep.
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He may not like what he did and wonders why he did it, but I imagine that he did not lose respect for himself.
I imagine that he might have, because the way he dealt with the issue was spineless.
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to accept that without showing her that there is a price to pay for her actions smacks of meekness and a lack of self-respect.
A price to pay, eh? Well, there's a price to pay for every action any of us takes, so there's no need to show her that. I presume you mean punish her for her actions.
And being forbearing /=meekness /= lack of self respect.
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If there were one word I'd use to describe Padma's character it would be "oblivious."
Nail on the head. Padma has displayed a general lack of empathy or ability to infer based on peoples' actions since the was introduced. She's not necessarily selfish, she's just very self-absorbed a lot of the time, it seems.
...which, incidentally, makes it extra important for Marten to accurately communicate his feelings to her right now. She most likely has no idea at all that Marten feels hurt by her not returning his calls, or that he resents the fact that she waited until the last minute to call him. She probably won't figure it out unless he tells her point-blank.
Check his twitter today (https://twitter.com/#!/jephjacques/status/157343099381760000) (see the surrounding tweets for explanation - also this post (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,27751.msg1072025.html#msg1072025)).
In fact the discussion has remained fairly sensible, instead of collapsing into a putrid writhing heap as he probably envisioned thinking back to the breakup period.
Aaaaaaaah.....thanks. That clears it up. I did see his post here in the forum, but haven't checked twitter in ages. Appreciate the heads up. I think he's been more upset in the past. I suspect (hope) we'll be safe! :-)
I think it isn't just that; Jeph is an emotional guy who is bothered by cynical sentiments such as the one expressed in the above link. The suggestion that Marten "earned" the right to hurt Padma as though it's some kind of merit badge that he should be proud of is kind of disturbing. In fact, I'd say that the whole idea of "other people are doing it, therefore I should do it" is the weakest rationalization in the world; you can use that to justify anything!
I am curious to know what Jeph thinks Marten should have done here, but I doubt that he's still reading the forums at this point.
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The suggestion that Marten "earned" the right to hurt Padma as though it's some kind of merit badge that he should be proud of is kind of disturbing. In fact, I'd say that the whole idea of "other people are doing it, therefore I should do it" is the weakest rationalization in the world; you can use that to justify anything!
This cracked me up.
"This coupon entitles the bearer to one opportunity to be a bit of a shit. Not applicable with other offers."
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Hopy shit, beneath the sexism being thrown around and the weird attitude that if other people act badly it somehow excuses you being an asshole, there is an okay discussion going on, good work (some) people
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"This coupon entitles the bearer to one opportunity to be a bit of a shit. Not applicable with other offers."
"Coupon is transferrable to the target of your shitty action."
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As for no one being 'right'...such would seem to be the case if one believes in moral relativism or that the characters--not being real people--cannot be right or wrong. Which I would disagree with.
I took that to mean that Jeph intends to portray all the characters as being realistically flawed, so that in any argument both parties will have screwed something up.
I've toyed with the idea of filling a pill bottle with M&Ms and printing a label that says "Self Pity: Use With Caution, May Be Habit-Forming".
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"This coupon entitles the bearer to one opportunity to be a bit of a shit. Not applicable with other offers."
"Coupon is transferrable to the target of your shitty action."
Padma's granny best watch herself then. :-o
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Coming soon: screaming long-distance rant from a very, VERY angry Padma's grandmother. Because I expect her to be just about as awesome as Marten's mom, even on death's doorstep.
You know what? I think I'd actually take this one over the other S*P-like endings running through my brain at the moment.
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As for no one being 'right'...such would seem to be the case if one believes in moral relativism or that the characters--not being real people--cannot be right or wrong. Which I would disagree with.
I took that to mean that Jeph intends to portray all the characters as being realistically flawed, so that in any argument both parties will have screwed something up.
Man, I was totally not contributing by not explaining that...sorry.
My point was supposed to be that even if both parties screwed things up--i.e., regret their actions even without hindsight--that doesn't mean we shouldn't determine whether or not one of them screwed things up less than the other. Now, it doesn't mean we should. But maybe so: there are real lessons here about 'doing the right thing' or at least 'doing the less wrong thing as understood by ourselves and others'. Even as we shouldn't demonize the person who doesn't take the nobler path--and there is way too much demonization, but I ignore it--we shouldn't discount the fact that they are, indeed, failing to pursue either their own or others' best long-term ends. Making them more 'in the wrong' as it were.
I think. But I'm not a moral relativist. And I judge everyone (usually for doing good things). :-o
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Coming soon: screaming long-distance rant from a very, VERY angry Padma's grandmother. Because I expect her to be just about as awesome as Marten's mom, even on death's doorstep.
I'd be rather surprised if Padma even mentions something like that to Grandma. Especially if she rationalizes the whole thing to be a mere fling. How many people even talk about their sex lives with grandparents? Many won't even talk about it with parents.
Besides, it would be rather over the top karmic retribution-not like Marten cursed Padma out or called her nasty names, he was just a bit short with her on the phone and refused an offer to get together with him. I don't think that earns him a bawling out by Padma's Gramma.
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I could still envision the following conversation (abridged):
Padma: I met a boy.
Grandma: So where is he?
Padma: I left him behind.
Grandma: What the heck were you thinking?
Still, what's so interesting about the story is that we still haven't really seen the whole thing. We could yet be surprised by what's really going on at Padma's end.
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I could still envision the following conversation (abridged):
Padma: I met a boy.
Grandma: So where is he?
Padma: I left him behind.
Grandma: What the heck were you thinking?
Still, what's so interesting about the story is that we still haven't really seen the whole thing. We could yet be surprised by what's really going on at Padma's end.
I haven't been following QC for particularly long, so I'm not familiar with what happens when a member becomes separated from the cast. Are we likely to find out what happens on Padma's end? Is she likely to have a conclusion, or return to the regular cast? I'd sort of just expected that we'd have the heartbreak for both of them we see right now, just only witnessing it on our protagonist's end, and then never hear directly from her again.
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I can't think of a really comparable situation in the archives, except maybe Ellen moving onto the research vessel. Jeph said she is gone forever.
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I can't think of a really comparable situation in the archives, except maybe Ellen moving onto the research vessel. Jeph said she is gone forever.
Fair enough. Then it's a mystery to everyone. Thank you very much. :-)
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Thing is, we did have a sense of closure with Ellen's departure - unlike Sara, who just disappeared and is presumed eaten by an allosaur.
Other than that, all of the majors are still there - except for Faye's family (mom and sis) and Mrs. Chatham.
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Besides, it would be rather over the top karmic retribution-not like Marten cursed Padma out or called her nasty names, he was just a bit short with her on the phone and refused an offer to get together with him. I don't think that earns him a bawling out by Padma's Gramma.
Agreed. While Marten may not have handled the situation as well as possible, he didn't really do anything particularly "bad." All he said was, "I'm busy tonight, but have a safe trip." Calling him an "asshole" for that seems to me to be overstating it.
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Nobody asked for it because I'm a massive lurker, but here's my two cents having been in a position similar to Marten's;
Padma instigated the action which hurt Marten, however if she's oblivious of that hurt blame can't fully attach to her action.
I think on the basis that her attitude changed towards Marten (It's been a short relationship and a week long radio silence would be a departure from the norm, surely?) I assume she was aware her action may have prompted a response, either positive or negative. I find it difficult to create an argument that would absolve Padma of knowledge that what she was doing may have hurt Marten, which really rings true with some of the previous posters talking about how the longer you go on not calling, the harder it is to call.
However, she did call - you could argue it's too little too late but she did try to make up for her previous behaviour.
As for Marten; he's tried to be adult and responsible by leaving her alone but he obviously feels she owes him some kind of apology, though you can argue she's unaware of exactly how much it's bothered him. However, when the call comes through and the apology doesn't seem forthcoming (not that Marten gives much of an opportunity for her to do so) - Marten falls back into passive aggressive overload.
By calling, Padma has tried to correct her crappy behavour; the biggest question I have to ask is: Will Marten try and correct his crappy behaviour? I think the answer to that question will set the scene for the next arc, with either some kind of growth, or yet another shallow depression.
Personally I think Marten needs a break before his cycles of depression and absolution become a bit too old hat; Faye and Angus have a lot of potential I'd be interested to see developed further at the moment.
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I'm going to reveal something - I'm one of the seven who voted "call her back right away and apologize".
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I'm going to reveal something - I'm one of the seven who voted "call her back right away and apologize".
I don't know how that would work. Like, as hard as I've been on her here, I don't know if it would be okay for her to accept his apology. Or where that would leave either of them. I don't spy a fairy tale ending in the cards. :C
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I have to head off to work, so...
Should these boards implode before I get a chance to come back and post, it's been great knowing y'all.
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Whatever happens with Padma is gonna happen, Jeph already has it planned out so let's sit back and enjoy the ride, and secretly plot and wait for Dale and Marigold to get together :D
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Or not.
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What, seriously?
And not loudly express all of our contradicting opinions and predictions, only to have them proven wrong one comic later? :psyduck:
That's ridiculous.
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Yeah, where's the fun in that?
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I don't think that there is going to be an end to this that doesn't involve those around Marten rubbing salt in his wounds. This is just more of a general statement, it does seem like since the breakup the comic has turned more into 'Kick Marten' but that's probably just my view on it.
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He's just that kinda guy. Remember how awful he felt after he accidentally saw Hanners' boob? He's (normally) overly cautious because he's terrified of making the wrong choice. Also it's just not in him to purposely hurt people (at least I didn't think it was). It's probably a good thing he doesn't remember drunkenly hitting on Faye; I suspect he'd ask her if she wanted him to move out. Some people don't need others to tear them apart; they do a thorough job on their own.
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Marten is capable of hurting people: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=697. That was admittedly a special case and one that doesn't bear on how he handles relationships.
It's a critically important point that we're completely in the dark about what's going on internally and externally with Padma.
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Well, that's quite a #2100.
I guess he didn't call her back.
I think that he is in a very bad place right now.
Oh, and the lines under his eyes are back.
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Now that we know she's actually decided to leave earlier than she had intended according to her amended plan, I have just lost more of my sympathy for Padma. :| "Hey, I decided you aren't worth sticking around for after all, wanna get together tonight?"
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Faye, taking sides against Marten?
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It takes a true friend to point out when you're being a tit. But I too didn't realize she left earlier than expected. Not very cool.
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Now that we know she's actually decided to leave earlier than she had intended according to her amended plan, I have just lost more of my sympathy for Padma. :| "Hey, I decided you aren't worth sticking around for after all, wanna get together tonight?"
... perhaps she changed her plans again after Marten shot her down.
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She might not have left early if Marten had gone to see her. BUT WE WILL NEVER KNOW because a MAN DOESN'T PUT UP WITH THAT SHIT he just DROPS THAT
GOD FAYE SO UNREASONABLE WHY DON'T YOU REALIZE THAT MARTEN HAD TO DO THIS
</sarcasm>
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Now that we know she's actually decided to leave earlier than she had intended according to her amended plan, I have just lost more of my sympathy for Padma. :| "Hey, I decided you aren't worth sticking around for after all, wanna get together tonight?"
... perhaps she changed her plans again after Marten shot her down.
She started the call by telling him she wasn't staying. Or are you suggesting his rejection might have somehow convinced her to stay in town? :?
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Ninja'd by Truestatic.
Yeah, Marten's rejection was totally after the fact. Flight booked, bags packed, leaving tomorrow whether she sees Marten or not.
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Whether she had a good reason or not, that had to have been one long, sad ride down the Mass Pike. Wouldn't be surprised if she was bawling by the time she got to the Ted Williams Tunnel.
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Now that we know she's actually decided to leave earlier than she had intended according to her amended plan, I have just lost more of my sympathy for Padma. :| "Hey, I decided you aren't worth sticking around for after all, wanna get together tonight?"
... perhaps she changed her plans again after Marten shot her down.
She started the call by telling him she wasn't staying. Or are you suggesting his rejection might have somehow convinced her to stay in town? :?
Yup, I'm wrong.
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I can't even count how many times I've witnessed the "Can't-call-the-day-after-a-date-will-look-desperate" thing- from both sides.
the fact that i did call the next day is what got me my second date with my far better half.
yea, i was scared to death that it would come across exactly that way to her... worked out somehow though. something about having the confidence to take that risk that she found appealing.
so hard to tell where the lines between confidant, arrogant and desperate is, lord knows ive crossed them a few times, but thankfully just being honest and straight up afterwards usually cleared things up.
goes both ways too though, a woman who plays games just oozes a lack of confidence in herself, and just as importantly, her man. nothing more unattractive than that imo.
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Now that we know she's actually decided to leave earlier than she had intended according to her amended plan, I have just lost more of my sympathy for Padma. :| "Hey, I decided you aren't worth sticking around for after all, wanna get together tonight?"
... perhaps she changed her plans again after Marten shot her down.
She started the call by telling him she wasn't staying. Or are you suggesting his rejection might have somehow convinced her to stay in town? :?
Yup, I'm wrong.
No worries, just wanted to make sure I didn't have my wires crossed.
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Whether she had a good reason or not, that had to have been one long, sad ride down the Mass Pike. Wouldn't be surprised if she was bawling by the time she got to the Ted Williams Tunnel.
You're assuming she actually cared enough to spare him more than a second thought. I imagine Marten was forgotten before she was out of the driveway.
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Whether she had a good reason or not, that had to have been one long, sad ride down the Mass Pike. Wouldn't be surprised if she was bawling by the time she got to the Ted Williams Tunnel.
You're assuming she actually cared enough to spare him more than a second thought. I imagine Marten was forgotten before she was out of the driveway.
Iunno, his rejection was enough to put her off balance on the phone, and the concern over their growing connection was enough to make her actively avoid him and move her plans up. I'd say he had a pretty reasonable effect on how she felt.
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You're assuming she actually cared enough to spare him more than a second thought. I imagine Marten was forgotten before she was out of the driveway.
what is this I don't even
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TONIGHT'S FORECAST:
woman-blaming and sexist horseshit
woman-blaming everywhere
*ollies outy*
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Whether she had a good reason or not, that had to have been one long, sad ride down the Mass Pike. Wouldn't be surprised if she was bawling by the time she got to the Ted Williams Tunnel.
You're assuming she actually cared enough to spare him more than a second thought. I imagine Marten was forgotten before she was out of the driveway.
If anything, she's almost certainly devastated. For all we know, the departure was not quite a done deal and she only purchased the ticket at the last minute. Or maybe she was calling his bluff.
There is one possibility that now occurs to me: she hasn't left town. She is truly devastated and ANGRY. Marten will run into her and she will tear into him. There will be tears and rage. What there will not be is a reconciliation. Marten will realize he jumped the gun and will wind up miserable for weeks. Why might this happen? Because life is messy and we don't always get to wrap up our loose ends, and sometimes, when we do get them wrapped up, we realize they may have been better left untied.
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Now that we know she's actually decided to leave earlier than she had intended according to her amended plan, I have just lost more of my sympathy for Padma. :| "Hey, I decided you aren't worth sticking around for after all, wanna get together tonight?"
... perhaps she changed her plans again after Marten shot her down.
seems a bit abrupt to do that. sticking around would have meant calling granny, her new landlord or whoever's place she was gonna crash at, her new job (assuming she'd gotten one), etc etc.
suddenly, basically out of the blue, deciding to leave less than a day after the call, after already changing all her plans so she could stay a bit longer... only thing i could think that would provoke a reaction like that would be a whole helluva mega asston more emotional turmoil than her previous acts portrayed.
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There is one possibility that now occurs to me: she hasn't left town. She is truly devastated and ANGRY. Marten will run into her and she will tear into him. There will be tears and rage. What there will not be is a reconciliation. Marten will realize he jumped the gun and will wind up miserable for weeks.
I don't get it. You're suggesting she was never going to leave town? That this was all some game that Marten didn't play in to, and now that he's found out he's going to feel worse about it?
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There is one possibility that now occurs to me: she hasn't left town. She is truly devastated and ANGRY. Marten will run into her and she will tear into him. There will be tears and rage. What there will not be is a reconciliation. Marten will realize he jumped the gun and will wind up miserable for weeks.
I don't get it. You're suggesting she was never going to leave town? That this was all some game that Marten didn't play in to, and now that he's found out he's going to feel worse about it?
Things do sometimes happen to screw up flights, among other things. It doesn't necessarily have to be a game, just some bad luck.
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Things do sometimes happen to screw up flights, among other things. It doesn't necessarily have to be a game, just some bad luck.
Oh okay, my bad. Fair enough.
I don't know, I have a hard time imagining anything that explosively dramatic. I expect the next few weeks are going to be pretty maudlin whenever Marten's around. What's the point of self pity if you can't wallow in it a little?
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Hypothetically it might be more she was trying to decide if she really could stay longer, had trouble talking to Marten about it, and then when it finally came down to it she wanted to talk to him and his comment maybe filled her with guilt or she figured it fully was over and left. Her leaving earlier than she had said after the extension thing was a pretty low thing to do. As said, what Marten did was pretty passive aggressive, however it is also understandable. (Note that I am not saying that it was RIGHT, I just said that I can understand it). Also, I almost feel like there needs to be some way to discuss this without someone claiming that complaints against a female character are misogynistic.
Faye yelling at him also feels in character, now it's probably not the best idea and we're going to see another round of 'Rub salt in the wounds' but meh.
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Ah Marten, Marten, Marten. You really need to explain your point of view better. If your reply to Faye's question had been something like "She doesn't call me for a week, then calls out of the blue with NO apology or real explanation, and expects me to meet up with her like nothing happened?? Of course I refused!" you might have gotten more sympathy. Notice I said MIGHT have.
But since he didn't, it seems like he's already self-flagellating himself, and has now enlisted Faye's unwitting help.
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Marten has routinely had to deal with the fact that the women in his life tend to use an emotional front when dealing with him to hide the reality underneath.
Padma has managed to join others on a pretty long list...so it does not in the least surprise me that Marten chose to deal with it in this way. Asshole, maybe...but it's not like going the opposite direction has ever worked for him.
And yeah, go ahead Faye...pile right on. :roll:
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Marten has routinely had to deal with the fact that the women in his life tend to use an emotional front when dealing with him to hide the reality underneath.
Padma has managed to join others on a pretty long list...so it does not in the least surprise me that Marten chose to deal with it in this way. Asshole, maybe...but it's not like going the opposite direction has ever worked for him.
And yeah, go ahead Faye...pile right on. :roll:
I'm inclined to think she does have a point on some level. Or at least I will assume so till Word of God says otherwise, mainly because I'm not the best choice in the world for analyzing women's reactions, and I'm assuming Jeph's wife is helping him along on plotlines like this.
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He's already got lines under his eyes, so I don't see how this is "working" for him.
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Ah Marten, Marten, Marten. You really need to explain your point of view better. If your reply to Faye's question had been something like "She doesn't call me for a week, then calls out of the blue with NO apology or real explanation, and expects me to meet up with her like nothing happened?? Of course I said no!" you might have gotten more sympathy. Notice I said MIGHT have.
Sounds like he's already self-flagellating himself, and has now enlisted Faye's unwitting help.
Except Faye was already aware that Padma had been blowing him off. If it had been Steve, Hannelore, Marigold, Angus or someone that we hadn't seen him discuss the problem on panel with already that would be one thing. Faye however knew that Padma had been avoiding Marten, for odd reasons thought that him not confronting her at work was 'passive aggressive' so yeah, this does feel a bit...odd.
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TONIGHT'S FORECAST:
woman-blaming and sexist horseshit
woman-blaming everywhere
*ollies outy*
Don't forget the Marten-hate. There will be plenty of Marten-hate.
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Faye however knew that Padma had been avoiding Marten, for odd reasons thought that him not confronting her at work was 'passive aggressive' so yeah, this does feel a bit...odd.
I don't understand how it is odd. She thought that his initial behaviour was passive aggressive, and didn't feel happy about it... then he does something which fits far more firmly in the category of passive aggressive than the original behaviour, destoying any chance to mend the original conflict. How to you expect her to react?
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By emptying a container of milk over Padma?
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By emptying a container of milk over Padma?
Padma's safely out of milksreach, so she has to settle for the whipping boy.
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Faye however knew that Padma had been avoiding Marten, for odd reasons thought that him not confronting her at work was 'passive aggressive' so yeah, this does feel a bit...odd.
I don't understand how it is odd. She thought that his initial behaviour was passive aggressive, and didn't feel happy about it... then he does something which fits far more firmly in the category of passive aggressive than the original behaviour, destoying any chance to mend the original conflict. How to you expect her to react?
My point was more in the vein of, 'explaining that wouldn't help and in fact would be likely counterproductive"
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Whether she had a good reason or not, that had to have been one long, sad ride down the Mass Pike. Wouldn't be surprised if she was bawling by the time she got to the Ted Williams Tunnel.
You're assuming she actually cared enough to spare him more than a second thought. I imagine Marten was forgotten before she was out of the driveway.
If anything, she's almost certainly devastated. For all we know, the departure was not quite a done deal and she only purchased the ticket at the last minute. Or maybe she was calling his bluff.
There is one possibility that now occurs to me: she hasn't left town. She is truly devastated and ANGRY. Marten will run into her and she will tear into him. There will be tears and rage. What there will not be is a reconciliation. Marten will realize he jumped the gun and will wind up miserable for weeks. Why might this happen? Because life is messy and we don't always get to wrap up our loose ends, and sometimes, when we do get them wrapped up, we realize they may have been better left untied.
She said she was leaving and had been packing before Marten had said anything. Had she said she was leaving after Marten started talking, you might have an argument. It's a lot of work to pack up your life and move across country. Not something that can really be done spur-of-the-moment, so she must've been doing it for that entire week.
Not leaving town would be pretty much more effort into this than Padma seems capable of, to me. Considering she used the grandmother excuse before they had their sexy times and everyone else knew she was leaving.
No matter what, Marten will end up miserable. Whether through his own action or from Faye/Dora making him miserable for being an ass. A justified ass, but an ass nonetheless.
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Where is Faye's scar? :-o
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C'mon Faye, hug him. Love them the most when they least deserve etc..
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TONIGHT'S FORECAST:
woman-blaming and sexist horseshit
woman-blaming everywhere
*ollies outy*
Don't forget the Marten-hate. There will be plenty of Marten-hate.
I find this hilarious because I am like self-appointed chief officer in charge of Marten-hate.
Which isn't really Marten-hate, because I like Marten, but I think that people are really eager to absolve him of all responsibility for the problems in his life, and instead blame them on the women around him! Which is incredibly sexist and stupid! And then I get all schadenfreudey when shit happens to him and it's just this vicious cycle and
The point is
Marten fucked up this time; Padma instigated the problem, yes, but Marten really had the crowning fuck-up here. Instead of be the bigger person, instead of actually being a nice dude, he acted like a prick and now he will reap the prick harvest. I can't really say anything to dump on him, dude dumped on himself. And Faye is rightfully not letting him off.
I recognize Marten is a good dude usually, but the magnitude of one's virtue does not excuse one when one sins. It weighs against it, yes: I'd never call Marten the villain, not even here, and his actions had reasons behind them...but they were wrooooooonnnnnggggg
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Is it just me, or are a lot of the reactions (in-strip and out) predicated around it being a relationship, when it was (initially) an on-off casual thing?
(I guess that makes them.. casualties. Sorry)
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I think even the noblest person on the planet would get just a wee bit tired of "being the bigger man" when he's the only one ever being said bigger man, and all it's ever done is blown up in his face.
Sometimes people just get fed up with their circumstances, regardless of fault.
As for "sexism" being at work with those siding with Marten, that's just plain ridiculous. Who does Marten interact with on a regular basis, and who is in most of his storylines?
1. Faye
2. Dora
3. Hannelore
4. Padma
5. Elliot
6. Steve
So of those six, I'd say only Faye, Dora, and Padma have been "instrumental" in his character development, being that his dating life is his central story. Most people think Steve's a jerk, but he's in the comic so infrequently as to be not much of a factor. Remember the Marten/Elliot drama a few weeks back? The point is, when it comes to drama in the comic with Marten, it's the women who are there. It's not sexist to put blame on a woman IF A WOMAN DESERVES BLAME. Automatically absolving Faye/Dora/Padma is no better than automatically absolving Marten, is it?
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Marten fucked up this time; Padma instigated the problem, yes, but Marten really had the crowning fuck-up here. Instead of be the bigger person, instead of actually being a nice dude, he acted like a prick and now he will reap the prick harvest. I can't really say anything to dump on him, dude dumped on himself. And Faye is rightfully not letting him off.
I recognize Marten is a good dude usually, but the magnitude of one's virtue does not excuse one when one sins. It weighs against it, yes: I'd never call Marten the villain, not even here, and his actions had reasons behind them...but they were wrooooooonnnnnggggg
I feel like I've been trying to say that since the beginning, thanks, man =)
... also, JEPH IS RUININ' MAH WEEKENDS!
Is it just me, or are a lot of the reactions (in-strip and out) predicated around it being a relationship, when it was (initially) an on-off casual thing?
(I guess that makes them.. casualties. Sorry)
/slap
... and I think after reading some of the stuff Padma said during that ON-OFF-sex-relationship that, to her, by the end it must've felt more like unwillingly-ON than fun-OFF... ~~
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TONIGHT'S FORECAST:
woman-blaming and sexist horseshit
woman-blaming everywhere
*ollies outy*
Don't forget the Marten-hate. There will be plenty of Marten-hate.
I find this hilarious because I am like self-appointed chief officer in charge of Marten-hate.
Which isn't really Marten-hate, because I like Marten, but I think that people are really eager to absolve him of all responsibility for the problems in his life, and instead blame them on the women around him! Which is incredibly sexist and stupid! And then I get all schadenfreudey when shit happens to him and it's just this vicious cycle and
The point is
Marten fucked up this time; Padma instigated the problem, yes, but Marten really had the crowning fuck-up here. Instead of be the bigger person, instead of actually being a nice dude, he acted like a prick and now he will reap the prick harvest. I can't really say anything to dump on him, dude dumped on himself. And Faye is rightfully not letting him off.
I recognize Marten is a good dude usually, but the magnitude of one's virtue does not excuse one when one sins. It weighs against it, yes: I'd never call Marten the villain, not even here, and his actions had reasons behind them...but they were wrooooooonnnnnggggg
I feel the way I feel about Marten and Padma because of what they did and who the protagonist is, not because if their equipment. If Marten had done what Padma did, or Padma was the protagonist, I might feel differently, but I hate the implication that I can't say that I think a character screwed up because a criticism of them is an implied criticism of their gender. From my point of view, Padma acted really poorly, and while a saint may have absolved her of any wrongdoing, I don't think Marten owed her that.
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I just had an interesting thought.
If this story was about a woman who stood up for herself against a thoughtless dude who led her on by rejecting him using the "sorry I'm busy" method, there would be people here who would get very upset if the notion was suggested that she acted like a "bitch" to the guy. That would be a sexist misogynist attitude, right? Yet the consensus here seems to be that Marten is acting like an "asshole" by standing up for himself and refusing to let his heart be ripped out through his anus one more time.
What I'm really trying to say is that the people who think Marten is an asshole, probably also believe that being the "bigger person" means allowing yourself to be further crushed by listening to the self-serving apologetic crap spouted by the girl who screwed with you, while your own anger and accusation of thoughtlessness on the girl's part ellicits a shrug and a "So I made a mistake! I am what I am." reply. I say that people who think Marten is being a jerk are just misandrists who think that men should bend over and take it when they get hurt by women.
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Not right... not even wrong. It makes my head hurt just trying to read it.
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I just had an interesting thought.
If this story was about a woman who stood up for herself against a thoughtless dude who led her on by rejecting him using the "sorry I'm busy" method, there would be people here who would get very upset if the notion was suggested that she acted like a "bitch" to the guy. That would be a sexist misogynist attitude, right? Yet the consensus here seems to be that Marten is acting like an "asshole" by standing up for himself and refusing to let his heart be ripped out through his anus one more time.
What I'm really trying to say is that the people who think Marten is an asshole, probably also believe that being the "bigger person" means allowing yourself to be further crushed by listening to the self-serving apologetic crap spouted by the girl who screwed with you, while your own anger and accusation of thoughtlessness on the girl's part ellicits a shrug and a "So I made a mistake! I am what I am." reply. I say that people who think Marten is being a jerk are just misandrists who think that men should bend over and take it when they get hurt by women.
I don't know if I'd go quite that far. While hypotheticals can be fun, I'd avoid using them as solid justification for any position. Best that they're treated with restraint. We all know how we'd like to think we'd react if situations were reversed, but unless they actually are reversed, all we've got is guesses and wishes.
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I just thought I'd throw that bomb out there because everybody is so quick to call Marten an asshole.
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No matter what, Marten will end up miserable. Whether through his own action or from Faye/Dora making him miserable for being an ass. A justified ass, but an ass nonetheless.
id actually like this to be a sort of turning point for him. that he'll stop second guessing himself quite so much and use this whole episode as some sort of twisted therapy to stop creating so much self-regret.
ffs marty, stop being so passive, start standing up for your decisions and accept responsibility for them, despite what the admirably strong women in your life think.
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TONIGHT'S FORECAST:
woman-blaming and sexist horseshit
woman-blaming everywhere
*ollies outy*
Don't forget the Marten-hate. There will be plenty of Marten-hate.
I find this hilarious because I am like self-appointed chief officer in charge of Marten-hate.
Which isn't really Marten-hate, because I like Marten, but I think that people are really eager to absolve him of all responsibility for the problems in his life, and instead blame them on the women around him! Which is incredibly sexist and stupid! And then I get all schadenfreudey when shit happens to him and it's just this vicious cycle and
The point is
Marten fucked up this time; Padma instigated the problem, yes, but Marten really had the crowning fuck-up here. Instead of be the bigger person, instead of actually being a nice dude, he acted like a prick and now he will reap the prick harvest. I can't really say anything to dump on him, dude dumped on himself. And Faye is rightfully not letting him off.
I recognize Marten is a good dude usually, but the magnitude of one's virtue does not excuse one when one sins. It weighs against it, yes: I'd never call Marten the villain, not even here, and his actions had reasons behind them...but they were wrooooooonnnnnggggg
whoa whoa whoa...
you reap what you sow.
why should it always fall on marten to be the nice guy? i actually don't see much wrong in what he did, from his perspective padma simply used him as a last hurrah. he was justifiably angry, and to be honest, i don't see how padma deserves marten being nice in response to her treatment of him.
only so many times you can turn the other cheek before they're so raw it'd actually be harmful for you to keep doing it.
as for the gender-bias thing going on here... double-standards are a wonderful thing aren't they? when a woman gets out of the dating game after a rough breakup, she's given sympathy and comfort. when a guy does the same thing, he's weak and indecisive. if the roles were reversed Marten would be the asshole for stringing her along and she'd be viewed as justified in blowing him off, because after all, being a man, of course he just used her to get his junk wet one last time before moving. but since she was the initiator, not him, she's automatically absolved of much of the fault that, rightfully, is hers to shoulder.
and is it any wonder that the other women in his life are giving him grief? from a character viewpoint, they are able to see her side far more easily than his, which automatically puts him at a disadvantage in any dealings with them about the whole affair.
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Where is Faye's scar? :-o
Jeph has suggested that it has faded with time and only shows up in certain lighting conditions.
Marten could have had a final fling with Padma without creating bad enabling dynamics in the relationship, because in any event the relationship (if it can be called one) would be over the next day no matter what.
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Or when he remembers to draw it, which is only when it's important to the plot, which hasn't been for a while now.
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I just thought I'd throw that bomb out there because everybody is so quick to call Marten an asshole.
Well, Marten did that for himself.
As for your "leading on" scenario above, I don't think you have described a genuine parallel to how Padma behaved.
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Today I got so close to a wild sea lion that it was like "hey, please do not come any closer or I will bite you" and I was like "okay cool" and it was like "cool" and we chilled out for a while.
this is awesome. :-)
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I think even the noblest person on the planet would get just a wee bit tired of "being the bigger man" when he's the only one ever being said bigger man, and all it's ever done is blown up in his face.
Sometimes people just get fed up with their circumstances, regardless of fault.
You (and several others!) are entirely missing my point.
Yes. Sure. He can be tired of it, because being virtuous is really inconvenient and a drag and hard to maintain, and I'm not just being sardonic; there is good reason 'virtue' is usually a divine quality. It's hard to keep turning the other cheek!
BUT
That doesn't mean it's right when you aren't virtuous! That just means it's understandable! I understand why Marten behaved badly; he had every reason. Padma behaved badly first, too! But the point is that none of that makes his behavior okay, he acted like a fucking jackass.
That he regrets it is good, because it was fucking wrong!
As for "sexism" being at work with those siding with Marten, that's just plain ridiculous. Who does Marten interact with on a regular basis, and who is in most of his storylines?
1. Faye
2. Dora
3. Hannelore
4. Padma
5. Elliot
6. Steve
So of those six, I'd say only Faye, Dora, and Padma have been "instrumental" in his character development, being that his dating life is his central story. Most people think Steve's a jerk, but he's in the comic so infrequently as to be not much of a factor. Remember the Marten/Elliot drama a few weeks back? The point is, when it comes to drama in the comic with Marten, it's the women who are there. It's not sexist to put blame on a woman IF A WOMAN DESERVES BLAME. Automatically absolving Faye/Dora/Padma is no better than automatically absolving Marten, is it?
You are showing a very poor understanding of sexism and how it works, and no one, least of all me, is auto-absolving anyone. Padma acted ridiculously badly and owed Marten an apology at the very least as one human being to another.
BUUUT
To say that it is all on her, and to extrapolate that it is something "women do" and to go on about how "women play games" or to call her a "bitch" is when we take a nice detour into open sexism and misogyny!
Also, some of you may not know this, but there is such a thing as male privilege! It's not really a cool thing and it's even less cool to enforce it!
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Things to bear in mind to help keep this place a decent one to visit.
(1) Blame culture.
It's unpleasant when people feel that blame has to be assigned for everything that happens. You know, sometimes things are just too difficult; sometimes they just don't work out; sometimes there are simply misunderstandings; sometimes we make mistakes. These things happen in spite of the best intentions. Assigning blame slips very easily into believing that mistakes and misunderstandings and failures are always avoidable and therefore effectively deliberate, and so should be punished. Punishing other people for simple things that just happen makes one an unpleasant person; life is better for everyone when forgiveness and absolution are freely offered rather than having to be earned.
(2) Projection
We are here to discuss the cast of QC and their experiences. It may be interesting to compare our experience with theirs, and to see how we or they might have behaved differently to have a chance of a better outcome; we can learn from such discussions. However, extrapolating a similarity in situations into simply stating that the characters should then behave as we would have done (or even have already done in the past), without giving thought to whether that behaviour was the best option, or even an acceptable one - either for the QC character or indeed for oneself - commonly leads to exposing our own deficiencies or insecurities. These thoughtless responses are perhaps the ones which most upset Jeph, and which lead to the most unpleasant arguments here.
(3) Bigotry
Most of society is deeply sexist to this day in spite of what changes have been made over the last century. When discussing a heterosexual relationship, of course there is a man and a woman involved, and if one can be seen as at fault at some point, that will be the man or the woman. This self-evident fact doesn't make sexism. However, the moment that the character's sex is used to justify their behaviour, or to explain it, or to define what they should have done, then the line has been crossed. We should put effort into avoiding doing that, as a step towards making the world a better place for everyone.
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I just thought I'd throw that bomb out there because everybody is so quick to call Marten an asshole.
Well, Marten did that for himself.
When a person who is so used to being a doormat actually starts refusing to be one, they might be inclined to think they're turning into an asshole when it's not really the case.
As for your "leading on" scenario above, I don't think you have described a genuine parallel to how Padma behaved.
Perhaps not, but your opinion may not be closest to the "truth" either.
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...Hodges why you always gotta follow my terrible posts with beautiful well-thought out ones D:
Seriously, though, thank you, and right on.
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I'm starting to think that the concept of "doormat" is as toxic as "nice guy".
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I think you would be spot-on in that analysis. :psyduck:
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I'm starting to think that the concept of "doormat" is as toxic as "nice guy".
In many people's minds, they are the same thing, and equally bad. Especially for the person who thinks of themselves in those terms.
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But the point is that none of that makes his behavior okay, he acted like a fucking jackass.
To say that it is all on her, . . . or to call her a "bitch" is when we take a nice detour into open sexism and misogyny!
I don't see how these two statements can coexist in the same brain? If Marten is a "fucking jackass" for his actions, how is Padma not a "fucking bitch" for hers?
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To say that it is all on her, and to extrapolate that it is something "women do" and to go on about how "women play games" or to call her a "bitch" is when we take a nice detour into open sexism and misogyny!
Also, some of you may not know this, but there is such a thing as male privilege! It's not really a cool thing and it's even less cool to enforce it!
I do think it's mostly on her. I don't think it's a thing that 'women do.' I think that both men and women are perfectly capable of 'playing games.' I know that gendered insults are a bad thing, I try to avoid them. I know that male privilege is also a thing. That's not something I'm trying to promote. I don't know if any of this was addressed at me, but if it was, I'm really sorry, the last thing I want to do is offend the members of this community. I understand that this is a very sensitive subject and typically try to avoid discussing it in any light except with those people I know and trust most.
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I'd just like to comment that I don't think Padma is a "fucking bitch" for getting scared of becoming too emotionally involved and thus running away. I do think it's emotionally immature when people behave like that (and many people of both sexes do). I only hold the opinion that Marten's choices and actions in handling the situation are reasonable and justified and will ultimately make his life better and happier rather than more miserable.
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But the point is that none of that makes his behavior okay, he acted like a fucking jackass.
To say that it is all on her, . . . or to call her a "bitch" is when we take a nice detour into open sexism and misogyny!
I don't see how these two statements can coexist in the same brain? If Marten is a "fucking jackass" for his actions, how is Padma not a "fucking bitch" for hers?
1.) Padma stopped her bad behavior when she called Marten up and wanted to see him
2.) Padma is not a male, and does not benefit from male privilege
3.) "Jackass" is not a gendered insult being used to subjugate and belittle an entire social group
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I'd just like to comment that I don't think Padma is a "fucking bitch" for getting scared of becoming too emotionally involved and thus running away. I do think it's emotionally immature when people behave like that (and many people of both sexes do). I only hold the opinion that Marten's choices and actions in handling the situation are reasonable and justified and will ultimately make his life better and happier rather than more miserable.
Likewise, I don't think Padma is a fucking bitch, I just don't see how you can name-call on Marten for his mistakes, and then immediately afterwards say doing the same thing to Padma is sexist.
I think they both handled the situation poorly, both made mistakes, to the detriment of both people.
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I'm starting to think that the concept of "doormat" is as toxic as "nice guy".
In many people's minds, they are the same thing, and equally bad. Especially for the person who thinks of themselves in those terms.
Agreed.
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So look. I saw the direction this was headed when I read accusations of sexism, and I really hate when the sexist label is applied readily/liberally. (Using the term when it isn't actually applicable defeats its importance and destroys the potential to teach, and I think it's a very important subject.)
So I decided to reread the entire thread and count some stuff.
In this thread there have been 3 legitimately sexist comments and 6 pseudo-generalizations about either a small subsection of the female population ("women who play games" or "some women who" by men) or even the entire population (by women). Two of the sexist comments are sexist because they refer use the term "bitch" without due consideration (i.e., the writers don't seem to understand that the language is stronger than an equivalent "bastard").
There have also been 8 groundless accusations of sexism or thread-wide sexism (generally by long-time forum members, strangely). By groundless I mean that while the 3 legitimately sexist comments should be called what they are, such weren't the targets of the majority of the criticism, and looking at the numbers the thread in general has been pretty darn sensitive.
Then, starting on page 7 there's this sudden argument about who's being sexist. Which is weird, because aside from one dude on the second page and the dude that responded to Jeph, there haven't been any directly sexist comments (unless they've been deleted and never quoted).
Instead, there have been stories about women in specific male posters' lives, always couched in very specific terms that avoid full generalizations. To deride such as sexism is both 1.) pointless, 2.) actually, worse than pointless, and 3.) assuming too much.
If you want to argue against people posting parallel anecdotes because combined they seem to indicate a critical generalization...that seems silly.
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Things to bear in mind to help keep this place a decent one to visit.
(1) Blame culture.
[...]
(2) Projection
[...]
(3) Bigotry
[...]
Thanks for this posting. I feel thats exactly what I should have posted instead of my grunting before (now deleted).
1.) Padma stopped her bad behavior when she called Marten up and wanted to see him
Not at all. As others have pointed out long before your posting - she now leaves earlier than planned before. Thus she actually only continued what she started.
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Do we actually know that Padma is leaving sooner than she had initially planned on (after agreeing to stay a little longer for her and Marten), or have there been enough time skips that it's actually the appointed time for her to leave anyway?
See today's strip. When Marten tells Faye Padma left, Faye says "I thought she was stickin' around a while longer." and Marten replies "Apparently not."
Just did! Lesson #1: READ THE FUCKING STRIP, MORON. My bad. :-P
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Just did! Lesson #1: READ THE FUCKING STRIP, MORON. My bad. :-P
It happens to the best of us. :lol:
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From a purely punchline point of view, I think Faye's line in the last panel should simply have been "NO!"
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There is no way of looking at Faye's pose in panel 3 that makes sense to me, and I'm not sure why.
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It has occurred to me that, amidst the caterwauling, blaming and various accusations flying about, that we're missing something important. It was something someone said - I forget who, sorry - and it wasn't that we're at the restaurant at the end of the universe, and would we like a drink before dinner.*
Rather, it was the obvious point that we really don't know what's going on with Padma. No one seems to have questioned it, and whether people think she's too scared to do the right thing on one extreme, or the bitch from hell on the other, the common factor is that those people have just assumed what has happened at the other end. And we really just do not know.
So I went back to this comic - and I do apologise if someone has already brought this up. The forums have been kind of like that recently. I can't keep it all in my head.
http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2091
The assumption seems to have been that the thought processes went something like this:
* Padma sighs because she is getting closer to Marten than she expected
* Padma makes a remark about it, but Marten reacts flippantly
* Padma is disturbed about the remark but doesn't press the point
And then as a result, she stops calling him etc etc. And it doesn't really make sense, except some of us just assume that therefore Padma must be a horrible person to do this to Marten.
But honestly, it just doesn't make sense to me at all.
We're missing something important. Oblivious, in fact. Just like the comic title.
So I'm going to throw a different interpretation onto the comic just to see what happens. It's almost certainly wrong. But what the hell. I've just had beer and pizza - it stimulates the creative juices.
Before that comic, something happened to Padma that we don't know about. I don't know what. Maybe it was her parents calling and saying they would be there tomorrow to make sure she gets back home on time like she was supposed to. Let's just go with that, because I'm really just guessing on top of supposition at this point.
So whatever it was, she goes through the night wondering how she can tell him that she really won't be able to see him again. This is where it gets hazy, because why wouldn't she be able to tell him? That's why I think I'm not quite right - that instead, it's something that she just can't share with him for some reason. God knows what.
So let's get back to the comic. She's thinking that this is the last night and sighs.
Marten: Something wrong?
Padma: (can't tell him) why couldn't I have met you a year ago?
Marten: jokey reply - doesn't make her feel better, but of course he is oblivious to what is going on in her head.
Padma: (has a dismayed expression - not directly because of what Marten has said, but rather because of her internal conflict).
Then the next day of course she can't be with him for whatever that reason was. And can't until the very last night.
Sorry, I'm just "thinking out loud", and normally those kinds of half-formed thoughts wouldn't make it all the way onto the forum, but I hope at the very least it provokes a new line of conversation.
Whatever the answer is, I suspect the story has one last surprise in store for us.
Because for me, it still doesn't quite add up.
* If you're not a Douglas Adams fan, I do apologize for that reference.
http://www.otostopcu.org/yazi/h2g2/b2c15.php
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It is an interesting line of thought Tova, and I had considered that we really didn't know what was up with her, which I realize is probably a very deliberate thing on the writer's part. I came to the conclusion that, whatever it was that was going on with her... she probably coulda called. I don't know, I realize I'm still not deviating from the previous conversation we've been on about, about blame Marten, blame Padma. I would very much like to KNOW what's going on with her, but... I don't know. We'll see. I can't say I'd be surprised if we never learned. If last strip was the last we'll ever hear from her. Leaving what exactly happened to her as a big question mark forces us to think about it for ourselves and come to our own judgements, just like Marten has to, and I think it takes us... well, if the last few pages tell us anything, it takes us interesting, contentious places. If this is indeed the end of the arc, I can't complain. It's a thought provoking, if not particularly satisfying ending.
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From a purely punchline point of view, I think Faye's line in the last panel should simply have been "NO!"
Not actually very punchy.
It could be:
- NO, I wont say that.
- NO, you are not an a**h***
Thus, having double meaning, it would have been awful as a "punchline".
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I came to the conclusion that, whatever it was that was going on with her... she probably coulda called.
I know, right? So why didn't she? We may never know the answer, but I think it's the key to the whole shenanigans.
Whatever it was, I don't think it's callousness. That doesn't seem Jeph's style.
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Now that we know she's actually decided to leave earlier than she had intended according to her amended plan, I have just lost more of my sympathy for Padma. :| "Hey, I decided you aren't worth sticking around for after all, wanna get together tonight?"
... perhaps she changed her plans again after Marten shot her down.
She started the call by telling him she wasn't staying. Or are you suggesting his rejection might have somehow convinced her to stay in town? :?
Yup, I'm wrong.
Not necessarily.
She may've taken Marten's joking response to her attempt to have a serious conversation ("Why couldn't I have met you a year ago (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2091)") as being somewhat shot down. She moped about it for a week, then tried again to let him know she was feeling blue (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2095) and he still didn't react so to speak. This too from her perspective could've been viewed as being shot down. After that she might've just figured she'd leave earlier.
Then of course, there's Tova's most interesting observation. Maybe she realized she did have to leaver earlier, and was trying to tell him that last time they were in bed together. Buuuut they were totally on different wave lengths and it was all downhill from there.
Oh...and I feel really bad that he didn't call her back. They could've at least talked on the phone and sorted out some stuff :cry:
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So why didn't she? We may never know the answer, but I think it's the key to the whole shenanigans.
Whatever it was, I don't think it's callousness. That doesn't seem Jeph's style.
Have you never put off doing something because of the pain it will cause (to yourself even, not necessarily others), even though putting it off will cause more pain later? I know I have. So how about this:
Padma wanted to delay going (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2075); when she tried to arrange it, her family put pressure on her (and how they can!) not to change her plans (possibly even before their last night together, which is why she was so conflicted (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2091)); she couldn't bear to tell Marten, and so avoided (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2093) him (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2094) until there was no further option (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2099). This avoidance was sad, though understandable in a flawed world; Marten's reaction was equally unfortunate, but somewhat understandable. I have sympathy with them both, but also would like to knock their heads together...
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Congrats Jeph, you wrote Marten brilliantly. I'd be tired of being fucked around too if I were him.
I'm with Napoleon on this. Marten got well and truly yanked around by Padma over the past week or so (and not in the fun way), 'bout time he did some yanking of his own. Why did you do that Marten? Because you're most likely PISSED at the way Padma's been treating you lately, that's why. Bravo for showing some spine.
Yowch, Marten.
I'm all for a person standing up for themselves; but just telling her that you are busy and blowing her off like this isn't constructive unless the person already possessed the amount of personal insight/reflection needed to avoid having pulled the week of silence in the first place.
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I just joined the forum (after a long time lurking) due to the recent arc.
Marten acted like an asshole. Let's not forget this. Instead of confrontation, which he is terrible at, he chose to not make it cut any deeper, and f$#@ Padma and what she feels. I can understand that. Still a terrible thing to do. But it's as close to being manly as he's ever been, so I guess I can justify that with him being "just a dude", and therefor sometimes inexplicably a dick (*giggity*).
On the other hand, he has a solid reason. A girl that he thought was in a good relationship with, for seemingly no reason, gave him the cold shoulder and decided to move away faster, while offering no explanation. Being left to hang like that is a pain that most people (of both sexes) know, and hate. If he met her, he would either lash out, which Marten seems incapable of, or try and make nice only to have it hurt more later. So being so non-confrontational, it really makes sense for him as a person to do this.
Padma reacted badly to going away, and decided to cut it off cleanly. A logical reaction for an emotional problem (I think Marten's joke reply made the situation hit home - I think she thought it was extremely cute, and noticed she was totally falling for him). But logic doesn't always work out. She was being just as childish as Marten. Instead of celebrating the good things about meeting him, and leaving with a bag of good memories to keep instead of the sour note of how it ended, she just tried to hide from it. I think this is why Padma and Marten could have worked out much better than Dora... because deep down, they have the potential to feel each other's emotional process. And they just look adorable together :D
What left me disappointed is Faye's reaction to this. She knows what Marten's been through, and instead of trying to understand why he acted the way he did (clue: he told her already), she automatically lashes out at him. Then again, she has her reasons for not liking men who have no patience for emotional BS. But of all people, she should have been able to empathize with Marten's situation. Has her relationship been going that well that she forgot what it's like to just not be able to act like an adult in an emotional mess? I never thought Faye was that kind of girl.
This was basically Marten's equivalent of sobbing and eating delicious chocolate ice-cream. And she just left him he was right to do that instead of offering any support. This might be a realistic end (because sometimes the world just sucks that way), with Marten eventually breaking down (no Dora to bail him out from this mess this time, and no Faye to give him a quick feel-good speech)... but it's just so sad. I like happy Marten, he's cute! T_T
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Have you never put off doing something because of the pain it will cause (to yourself even, not necessarily others), even though putting it off will cause more pain later?
Ohhh yes.
I know I have. So how about this:
Padma wanted to delay going (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2075); when she tried to arrange it, her family put pressure on her (and how they can!) not to change her plans (possibly even before their last night together, which is why she was so conflicted (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2091)); she couldn't bear to tell Marten, and so avoided (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2093) him (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2094) until there was no further option (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2099). This avoidance was sad, though understandable in a flawed world; Marten's reaction was equally unfortunate, but somewhat understandable. I have sympathy with them both, but also would like to knock their heads together...
A simple and therefore quite believeable theory.
And yeah, I'm with you on the last sentence.
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@NotSoAverageJoe:
Amen, man, amen.
Women who play games do nothing but confuse the hell out of guys at best and just piss them off at worst.
And give the rest an undeserved bad rep.
The real frustrating part is there's no reliable way to tell them apart from the sane ones easily ahead of time. :psyduck:
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@NotSoAverageJoe:
Amen, man, amen.
Women who play games do nothing but confuse the hell out of guys at best and just piss them off at worst.
And give the rest an undeserved bad rep.
The real frustrating part is there's no reliable way to tell them apart from the sane ones easily ahead of time. :psyduck:
Well, as the saying goes, when looking for a partner, you can have pretty, sane, or available. Pick two. So logically...
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:psyduck: Good god, anyone who is still saying Marten acted like an asshole, clearly hasn't the slightest clue what a real "asshole" is.
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I just joined the forum (after a long time lurking) due to the recent arc.
You aren't the only one. I guess the drama brings us out. :P
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I'm starting to think that the concept of "doormat" is as toxic as "nice guy".
In many people's minds, they are the same thing, and equally bad. Especially for the person who thinks of themselves in those terms.
Pretty much. I used to be that way and stopped. Or at least I try to. I'm more likely to be a jerk to someone, but I try not to be a douche to someone without damn good reason and try to stop the moment that reason no longer applies.
I've learned that passiveness/politeness will sometimes for some reason send the message that it was OK to try to walk all over you to some people. Happy happy feel good dialogue just don't fix that usually.
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:psyduck: Good god, anyone who is still saying Marten acted like an asshole, clearly hasn't the slightest clue what a real "asshole" is.
You reckon?
Yet the consensus here seems to be that Marten is acting like an "asshole" by standing up for himself and refusing to let his heart be ripped out through his anus one more time.
Marten lied to Padma as an un-thought-out act of petty revenge which he immediately regretted, but then did nothing to put right - and the next day looked for reassurance, which he didn't get. He threw away the chance of a final night of (bitter-sweet) fun. This was not "standing up for himself". He was stupid; understandably so, but still stupid.
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FWIW, I think Marten's response has been blown out of proportion by the comic and the thread. He didn't curse her out. He didn't yell at her. He simply disengaged after she gave every sign that she wanted to disengage. If she had other crap going on, I find it hard to believe it was so amazingly engrossing that she couldn't call/email/text back and say "I'm sorry I didn't call/text, I'm doing XXXX" or even, "Sorry I haven't responded. Do miss you."
His response was a perfectly valid response to being blown off.
The highest probability scenario on her side was that she was playing games or otherwise deliberately ignoring him. If he goes over, the probability is high that some further shenanigans will ensue, before or after breakup sex.
Bugger that for soldiers.
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I have sympathy with them both, but also would like to knock their heads together...
Aye.
People are rarely callous but mostly stupid.
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:psyduck: Good god, anyone who is still saying Marten acted like an asshole, clearly hasn't the slightest clue what a real "asshole" is.
You reckon?
Yet the consensus here seems to be that Marten is acting like an "asshole" by standing up for himself and refusing to let his heart be ripped out through his anus one more time.
Marten lied to Padma as an un-thought-out act of petty revenge which he immediately regretted, but then did nothing to put right - and the next day looked for reassurance, which he didn't get. He threw away the chance of a final night of (bitter-sweet) fun. This was not "standing up for himself". He was stupid; understandably so, but still stupid.
I didn't even think of it that way at all. I thought it was a way to avoid telling her the blunt truth, which would probably have been even more hurtful. "No, I don't want to see you." Youch.
I saw his refusing to see her as absolutely standing up for himself. It hurt him to hurt her, and it hurt him to say goodbye like that, but it seems a perfectly valid expression of his feelings.
Differences of opinion, I guess.
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[ ... ]
What I'm really trying to say is that the people who think Marten is an asshole, probably also believe that being the "bigger person" means allowing yourself to be further crushed by listening to the self-serving apologetic crap spouted by the girl who screwed with you, while your own anger and accusation of thoughtlessness on the girl's part ellicits a shrug and a "So I made a mistake! I am what I am." reply.
[ ... ]
Woah, clearly there are issues here. :-D
If Marten was really as heartbroken by what Padma did as some people here seem, it would show more, methinks.
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Or when he remembers to draw it, which is only when it's important to the plot, which hasn't been for a while now.
I'd agree that's a reason to justify when the scar is forgotten but it's definitely shown times when it's not relevant to the plot.
Here's a couple:
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=425 to http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=430
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1851 to http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1854 Just the first panel
That's just times I remembered off the top of my head. In between the last two it's missing here (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1853) but you could argue she's lying different or different perspective.
I know there's a lot more serious discussion going on here but I chose to pick out the comment I had a response where I knew exactly what I thought about it. :psyduck:
I have sympathy with them both, but also would like to knock their heads together...
This basically sums up what I think.
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Faye has a scar? :psyduck:
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Long time lurker, first time poster etc. etc. etc.
In regards to: http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2091 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2091)
I think Tova was on the right track.
Apologies if this line of thinking has already been posted.
I think Padma was looking for validation of her feelings that they were "meant to be" so to speak. Some sort of indication that they had the sort of connection where they could intuit what the other was thinking. This was really the only thing that truly could pull Padma away from leaving (imagine if she decided to stay if it was nothing more than a fling and her grandmother suddenly got very ill again) - some sort of indication that Marten was "the one". Marten's flippant response was not the reaction she had played out in her head - his response changed her mindset from "star crossed lovers" to "oh, I guess I'm just a fling". . Marten, on the other hand, was simply trying to play it cool and not appear overly clingy when he knows that she has to leave.
Basically, it was a scenario where they were both waiting for the other to profess their love. Neither of them did out of trying not to put pressure on the other and confusion over the situation. This would be the classic trope in the Wedding Singer where Adam Sandler rushes to the airport, jumps on the plane, and, with the help of Billy Idol, professes his undying love through song to Drew Barrymore. Tropes are cliché because they're effective plot devices.
But, as life is not like tv, instead we have Marten being passive aggressive...
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Marten lied to Padma as an un-thought-out act of petty revenge which he immediately regretted, but then did nothing to put right - and the next day looked for reassurance, which he didn't get. He threw away the chance of a final night of (bitter-sweet) fun. This was not "standing up for himself". He was stupid; understandably so, but still stupid.
Lied? If Marten decided that hanging around in his apartment wallowing in self pity was a better use of his time, then he didn't "lie". But I'll gladly grant you the premise that Marten lied. Because I see it differently:
Marten told an innocuous lie as a way of separating himself from Padma without resorting to throwing out raw emotion and possible nastiness, after being upset with her for severing all contact after they both were having an amazing time together. He then immediately questioned his judgement, and the next day looked for a second opinion on his actions. He took the right steps to guard himself against further pain and chose not to waste his time pursuing some kind of closure (which is always an illusion anyway). He was intelligent, but demonstrated the understandable flaw of second-guessing himself.
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Long time lurker, first time poster etc. etc. etc.
In regards to: http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2091 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2091)
[ ... ]
But, as life is not like tv, instead we have Marten being passive aggressive...
Good first, nice and clean.
But thats a LOT of assumptions especially as to the emotional state of Padma. Getting the image of being "star-crossed lovers" in your head normally takes more time than they've had.
And even if she has it stuck up there, she should be much more emotionally and romantically experienced than to manouver Marten into a forced confession like that... at least, judging from the way she handled the Elliot-situation and the beginning of the Marten-fling she should be....
(I love assumptions btw.)
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(I love assumptions btw.)
When you ASSUME you make Soulsynger pretty happy?
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:psyduck: Good god, anyone who is still saying Marten acted like an asshole, clearly hasn't the slightest clue what a real "asshole" is.
You reckon?
Yet the consensus here seems to be that Marten is acting like an "asshole" by standing up for himself and refusing to let his heart be ripped out through his anus one more time.
Marten lied to Padma as an un-thought-out act of petty revenge which he immediately regretted, but then did nothing to put right - and the next day looked for reassurance, which he didn't get. He threw away the chance of a final night of (bitter-sweet) fun. This was not "standing up for himself". He was stupid; understandably so, but still stupid.
I didn't even think of it that way at all. I thought it was a way to avoid telling her the blunt truth, which would probably have been even more hurtful. "No, I don't want to see you." Youch.
I saw his refusing to see her as absolutely standing up for himself. It hurt him to hurt her, and it hurt him to say goodbye like that, but it seems a perfectly valid expression of his feelings.
Differences of opinion, I guess.
"Well, not getting return calls for a week kind of irritated me to the point that it's probably best I not see you for now."
There are polite but firm assertive ways to tell the truth, and avoid "polite lies" that tend to further complicate things.
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(I love assumptions btw.)
When you ASSUME you make Soulsynger pretty happy?
Yes...? ... and I assume you were trying to make a joke there. I don't get it. °O
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(I love assumptions btw.)
When you ASSUME you make Soulsynger pretty happy?
Yes...? ... and I assume you were trying to make a joke there. I don't get it. °O
It looks like mostly I just make an ass of me. "Well, not getting return calls for a week kind of irritated me to the point that it's probably best I not see you for now."
There are polite but firm assertive ways to tell the truth, and avoid "polite lies" that tend to further complicate things.
I know, I just didn't think his primary goal was to hurt her.
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Been going through this arc thinking that it is a pretty good representation of a relationship that has changed, and that neither party recognizes it at the same time, nor in the same way.
This, coupled with the challenges both parties have with clear communication have brought us to where they are - both hurt, alone, and in at least Marten's case being called out by both himself and his best friend.
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* If you're not a Douglas Adams fan, I do apologize for that reference.
http://www.otostopcu.org/yazi/h2g2/b2c15.php
Sorry, but what? I think you may have terminally disrupted my world view. Some people aren't Douglas Adams fans? Madness!
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truestatic, I would like to commend you for being someone with an opposing viewpoint who has articulated it without resorting to generalizations/sexism/general tomfoolery and I don't feel I let you know that you are in fact p. cool.
But I also think that if you really believe he wasn't trying to hurt her, that he wasn't trying to give her a taste of her own medicine, that you give him way too much credit and are fooling yourself for Marten's sake, just a little :P
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truestatic, I would like to commend you for being someone with an opposing viewpoint who has articulated it without resorting to generalizations/sexism/general tomfoolery and I don't feel I let you know that you are in fact p. cool.
But I also think that if you really believe he wasn't trying to hurt her, that he wasn't trying to give her a taste of her own medicine, that you give him way too much credit and are fooling yourself for Marten's sake, just a little :P
I probably sympathize with him more than I should, objectively speaking. He is the protagonist though, so that'll happen. And thank you, that's cool of you to say. Despite Jeph's twitter and some general accusations of sexism, pretty much everyone here has seemed to promote a pretty pleasant atmosphere, yourself included. "I disagree with you, but I respect your opinion" is a rare commodity on the internet, and its nice to find it here. =]
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Despite Jeph's twitter and some general accusations of sexism, pretty much everyone here has seemed to promote a pretty pleasant atmosphere, yourself included. "I disagree with you, but I respect your opinion" is a rare commodity on the internet, and its nice to find it here. =]
Yeah, much as I admire the guy, I think it's pretty presumptive of Jeph to pop in, look at ONE single post by a newbie (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,27751.msg1072020.html#msg1072020) then assume the entire forum is acting that way. We try pretty damn hard to get along around here and such. We aren't all running around here screaming about pooping on people's hearts, ya know?
One single off-color post by a new guy out of hundreds and hundreds of posts is pretty damn good, from my perspective.
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But I also think that if you really believe he wasn't trying to hurt her, that he wasn't trying to give her a taste of her own medicine, that you give him way too much credit and are fooling yourself for Marten's sake, just a little :P
People--even fictional QC people--are complicated and their motives are rarely pure. I'm sure there was an element of "getting back at her" in Marten's behaviour. But there are two important factors: 1) it really is her own behaviour he's putting back at her and 2) he has a right to protect himself emotionally.
She has withdrawn from him. She's gone from "I want to see more of you" to "I'm too busy right now to make time for you". Fair enough: she's not exactly been up-front about it, but she's young and confused.
For her to then turn around and say, "OK, having put you off and rebuffed your every approach for the last few days and given you time to experience emotional separation from me I now want to see you so you can go through the pain of separation again" is pretty second rate, and Marten has every right to say, "I've already done it once, I really don't feel like doing it again, thanks (you bitch)." That terminal parenthetical is certainly there, and doesn't do Marten any credit, but it's not the whole story.
Having been on the receiving end of behaviour like Padma's (and who hasn't? why do women DO that? Do they think we don't have any emotional reality of our own? If you prick us do we not bleat?) I've gotta say my sympathies are mostly on Marten's side here.
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I thought Douglas Adams was awesome until I started reading Terry Pratchett (Specifically 'Lords and Ladies' and 'Small Gods'). Pratchett treads a lot of the same ground but in a more positive tone and with a humanistic message. Also, Dirk Gently's cost him a lot of cred for me.
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truestatic, I would like to commend you for being someone with an opposing viewpoint who has articulated it without resorting to generalizations/sexism/general tomfoolery and I don't feel I let you know that you are in fact p. cool.
But I also think that if you really believe he wasn't trying to hurt her, that he wasn't trying to give her a taste of her own medicine, that you give him way too much credit and are fooling yourself for Marten's sake, just a little :P
I probably sympathize with him more than I should, objectively speaking. He is the protagonist though, so that'll happen. And thank you, that's cool of you to say. Despite Jeph's twitter and some general accusations of sexism, pretty much everyone here has seemed to promote a pretty pleasant atmosphere, yourself included. "I disagree with you, but I respect your opinion" is a rare commodity on the internet, and its nice to find it here. =]
They were not always so pleasant, I fear, and the civilizing influence is mostly from Mr. Hodges' tireless and doubtlessly thankless moderation efforts. that's part of why I jumped on the sexism thing: it's been a real problem around here in the past, and it hasn't gone away, and it should. There's no place for that sort of attitude here or anywhere.
Also "let Marten shit on the girl's heart" is a fantastic example of bad posting and the aforementioned bad attitude, and it doesn't surprise me that Jeph fixated on that. The dude has reasons to hate this place. Back during the Dora/Marten breakup...my God, what a dark time D:
So yes, it's more pleasant than he made it seem, bur we got a long way to go as a community :/
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I think it's pretty presumptive of Jeph to pop in, look at ONE single post by a newbie then assume the entire forum is acting that way. We try pretty damn hard to get along around here and such. We aren't all running around here screaming about pooping on people's hearts, ya know?
I expect that on reflection Jeph realises that; he does look over our shoulders from time to time now (after a period of avoiding the forum altogether), even though he rarely comments.
But you joined the forum at a time that there was a sudden blow-up followed by decent control through the new order; you may not realise that the forum had been that bad almost continuously from 2008 (when I joined) and I believe some time before. In early 2008 - four years ago - Jeph described this forum (in the private moderators' area) as "a fetid sewer and I don't think that's ever going to change". It has changed, with some effort - but Jeph had years of seeing it in that state, and a single post can easily trigger his misgivings as it did yesterday.
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Whether she had a good reason or not, that had to have been one long, sad ride down the Mass Pike. Wouldn't be surprised if she was bawling by the time she got to the Ted Williams Tunnel.
Point of order (and BOY do I have a lot of stuff to catch up on): It's pretty likely she went out of Bradley International out of Hartford. It's a lot closer and less of a hassle.
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I think it's pretty presumptive of Jeph to pop in, look at ONE single post by a newbie then assume the entire forum is acting that way. We try pretty damn hard to get along around here and such. We aren't all running around here screaming about pooping on people's hearts, ya know?
I expect that on reflection Jeph realises that; he does look over our shoulders from time to time now (after a period of avoiding the forum altogether), even though he rarely comments.
But you joined the forum at a time that there was a sudden blow-up followed by decent control through the new order; you may not realise that the forum had been that bad almost continuously from 2008 (when I joined) and I believe some time before. In early 2008 - four years ago - Jeph described this forum (in the private moderators' area) as "a fetid sewer and I don't think that's ever going to change". It has changed, with some effort - but Jeph had years of seeing it in that state, and a single post can easily trigger his misgivings as it did yesterday.
Oh. Well then thanks. I'm not a big fan of fetid sewers, and if that's what it was really like, then it's clear the hard work of the mods must have paid off.
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Long time lurker, first time poster etc. etc. etc.
In regards to: http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2091 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2091)
[ ... ]
But, as life is not like tv, instead we have Marten being passive aggressive...
Good first, nice and clean.
But thats a LOT of assumptions especially as to the emotional state of Padma. Getting the image of being "star-crossed lovers" in your head normally takes more time than they've had.
And even if she has it stuck up there, she should be much more emotionally and romantically experienced than to manouver Marten into a forced confession like that... at least, judging from the way she handled the Elliot-situation and the beginning of the Marten-fling she should be....
(I love assumptions btw.)
By star crossed lovers, I mean in the Romeo and Juliet sense - they love each other but fate constantly stands in the way (fate in this case being a sick grandma). I was kind of being hyperbolic to stress the "lovers confusion" trope/angle. I'm not necessarily saying that Padma was trying to get Marten to profess his undying love, rather that she was just looking for some sort of verification that they were on the same page. Instead, what happened was Marten obliviously blundering into the opposite of playing it cool and making a joke rather than being serious and understanding. Basically, I'm saying that Padma was looking for a sign to say that the stars were aligned, but Marten's blundering instead made her feel as if the stars were crossed. My assumption is that for Padma to absolutely be sure to stay everything had to feel exactly right, and Marten's comment made it feel a little off. Imagine if she decided to stay and something didn't feel right, then her Grandma suddenly got really sick again. That sort of thing really weighs on the conscience.
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Have you never put off doing something because of the pain it will cause (to yourself even, not necessarily others), even though putting it off will cause more pain later? I know I have. So how about this:
Padma wanted to delay going (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2075); when she tried to arrange it, her family put pressure on her (and how they can!) not to change her plans (possibly even before their last night together, which is why she was so conflicted (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2091)); she couldn't bear to tell Marten, and so avoided (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2093) him (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2094) until there was no further option (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2099). This avoidance was sad, though understandable in a flawed world; Marten's reaction was equally unfortunate, but somewhat understandable. I have sympathy with them both, but also would like to knock their heads together...
You forgot one key thing: family may have done more than pressure. They may have done a Marten's mom number. "I'm coming to Massachusetts, I'm going to pick you up, and that is FINAL, young lady."
Either way, I agree whole-heartedly, sir.
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then it's clear the hard work of the mods must have paid off.
Suckup! :-D
Anyway, I still contend that Marten just need a fucking hug. He felt rejected and acted childishly. Padma is losing part of her family, is moving away from friends and work and hometown, and on top of that has to deal with a guy who has no fucking clue (bedside strip recalled). It's understandable, it's human behavior, and I think regardless of whether Marten was "in the right" or not, he will regret this for the rest of his life. Unless, of course, he changes his mind.
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But I also think that if you really believe he wasn't trying to hurt her, that he wasn't trying to give her a taste of her own medicine, that you give him way too much credit and are fooling yourself for Marten's sake, just a little :P
People--even fictional QC people--are complicated and their motives are rarely pure. I'm sure there was an element of "getting back at her" in Marten's behaviour. But there are two important factors: 1) it really is her own behaviour he's putting back at her and 2) he has a right to protect himself emotionally.
She has withdrawn from him. She's gone from "I want to see more of you" to "I'm too busy right now to make time for you". Fair enough: she's not exactly been up-front about it, but she's young and confused.
For her to then turn around and say, "OK, having put you off and rebuffed your every approach for the last few days and given you time to experience emotional separation from me I now want to see you so you can go through the pain of separation again" is pretty second rate, and Marten has every right to say, "I've already done it once, I really don't feel like doing it again, thanks (you bitch)." That terminal parenthetical is certainly there, and doesn't do Marten any credit, but it's not the whole story.
Having been on the receiving end of behaviour like Padma's (and who hasn't? why do women DO that? Do they think we don't have any emotional reality of our own? If you prick us do we not bleat?) I've gotta say my sympathies are mostly on Marten's side here.
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I don't want to pick on you, but this is another really stellar example of Bad Posting, and it hits almost all of the three axioms Mr. Hodges was saying to avoid on the last page.
1.) Blame culture.
It's pretty obvious from sentence one that you are assigning blame, and more expressly assigning blame to Padma. This is folly. Even more dishearteningly, you are advocating the stance that Marten has justification, is morally correct, in hurting her because of her bad behavior. This is not true and the thread has already been over why that is multiple times over.
Why is there a need to assign blame here? What does it solve? Why not say that this is the result of both their mistakes, which is precisely what it is? Padma acted badly, and so did Marten. I'll admit, I personally handed Marten the lion's share in previous posts, but that is mostly because as protagonist I hold him to a higher standard. The fact of the matter is they both made a mess of this, and in the end it doesn't even matter who finished things or who started them. Blame isn't going to help anyone.
2.) Projection.
You are also, pretty obviously, projecting like hell onto the characters; your exacting speculative outline of Padma's motives (which I must remind everyone we do not know about in detail, no one here does save Jeph) speaks volumes about that, and then in the last sentence you freely admit that you have been in Marten's position and it sucked and stuff.
Don't do this. I cannot stress this enough. Do not project, no matter how strong the urge. Every time you, or anyone else, project yourselves onto Marten, Jeph wants to delete the forum. It's toxic: it ties everything up in very personal, heavily charged feelings, and honestly 99.99% of the time it's inaccurate for the simple fact that you aren't Jeph, so you don't know the character's motives or thoughts!
3.) Bigotry.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you were not being sexist.
That said, it is...pretty insensitive to ask "why do women [play emotional games]?" One might ask in return, "why are men such inconsiderate pricks?"
What? They aren't, you say? That's a stereotype, you say? WELL maybe the same is true of women!
Also, gendered insults, like "bitch", used to demean, are not cool at all! Please try not to use them!
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then it's clear the hard work of the mods must have paid off.
Suckup! :-D
Anyway, I still contend that Marten just need a fucking hug. He felt rejected and acted childishly. Padma is losing part of her family, is moving away from friends and work and hometown, and on top of that has to deal with a guy who has no fucking clue (bedside strip recalled). It's understandable, it's human behavior, and I think regardless of whether Marten was "in the right" or not, he will regret this for the rest of his life. Unless, of course, he changes his mind.
I KNOW RIGHT, but Dr. ROFLPWN pointed out how thankless their job normally is so I'm blaming peer pressure.
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So...did anyone else notice that Marten's mug says "#1 Grandpa"? :-D
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I think even the noblest person on the planet would get just a wee bit tired of "being the bigger man" when he's the only one ever being said bigger man, and all it's ever done is blown up in his face.
Sometimes people just get fed up with their circumstances, regardless of fault.
You (and several others!) are entirely missing my point.
Yes. Sure. He can be tired of it, because being virtuous is really inconvenient and a drag and hard to maintain, and I'm not just being sardonic; there is good reason 'virtue' is usually a divine quality. It's hard to keep turning the other cheek!
BUT
That doesn't mean it's right when you aren't virtuous! That just means it's understandable! I understand why Marten behaved badly; he had every reason. Padma behaved badly first, too! But the point is that none of that makes his behavior okay, he acted like a fucking jackass.
That he regrets it is good, because it was fucking wrong!
As for "sexism" being at work with those siding with Marten, that's just plain ridiculous. Who does Marten interact with on a regular basis, and who is in most of his storylines?
1. Faye
2. Dora
3. Hannelore
4. Padma
5. Elliot
6. Steve
So of those six, I'd say only Faye, Dora, and Padma have been "instrumental" in his character development, being that his dating life is his central story. Most people think Steve's a jerk, but he's in the comic so infrequently as to be not much of a factor. Remember the Marten/Elliot drama a few weeks back? The point is, when it comes to drama in the comic with Marten, it's the women who are there. It's not sexist to put blame on a woman IF A WOMAN DESERVES BLAME. Automatically absolving Faye/Dora/Padma is no better than automatically absolving Marten, is it?
You are showing a very poor understanding of sexism and how it works, and no one, least of all me, is auto-absolving anyone. Padma acted ridiculously badly and owed Marten an apology at the very least as one human being to another.
BUUUT
To say that it is all on her, and to extrapolate that it is something "women do" and to go on about how "women play games" or to call her a "bitch" is when we take a nice detour into open sexism and misogyny!
Also, some of you may not know this, but there is such a thing as male privilege! It's not really a cool thing and it's even less cool to enforce it!
if he had every reason to act the way he did, then what he did is not wrong. if he had acted the way he did with no justification then i'd agree he was in the wrong. but given the circumstances, there is no way i can see he was wrong. he simply had several choices of how to respond, he picked one that some of us may not have. that does not make him wrong, it just makes his decision making process different.
its not all on her, but does that mean she didn't deserve what he gave her in response to her initial treatment of him? absolutely not.
i also don't think anyone is placing blame on padma because she is a she... i think they're placing blame on her because she was the initiator of all this. she initiated the physical relationship, she was the one who cut off communication with him.
interesting thought concerning the sexist thing by the way... do you realize how sexist it is to tell the man to "be the bigger man?" the term itself is sexist! when was the last time you heard someone say "be the bigger woman" in a situation that involves both genders?
men are always expected to turn the other cheek, to simply put up with anything a woman does, because after all, a man can take it, because we're big and strong and emotionally miniscule compared to women and blah blah blah... because a woman is ultimately ineffectual and nothing she does can cause lasting emotional harm... but if he retaliates, well, that's just unacceptable because he can actually hurt her emotionally. never mind the whole added spice of being called a neanderthal for being a "man's man" who isn't in touch with his emotional side and doesn't show emotional vulnerability, while at the same time still being expected to put up with any emotional abuse a woman throws his way! dam double standards.
this whole turn the other cheek philosophy only furthers the gender bias, but it does so by placing the majority of the burden on male shoulders. all too often the woman in any given situation is not expected to have the endure the same kind of abuse and just put up with it. that "privilege" is one that is almost exclusively male.
i would argue that, in the spirit of gender equality, marten's actions were not only justified, but right. in that, for there to be true equality, both genders need to be treated with the same respect, but also be expected to hold the same responsibility towards each other that such respect inherently entails. that means that padma's actions need to be viewed as being just as wrong as marten's, rather than dismissed as inconsequential in the bigger scheme, and as such his retaliation was a measured response that was completely appropriate.
edit: i also love how there are all these accusations of sexism flying around, especially in relation to the term bitch, which is a rather nasty word... but at the same time insults towards men, such as bastard, have been stated to not be as hurtful. maybe not, but as long as we hold the attitude that one is absolutely not ok, and the other is bad, but its more acceptable because its not as bad... then you're never going to reach equality. all you'll end up doing is furthering the separation between the genders by creating double standards of treatment.
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do you realize how sexist it is to tell the man to "be the bigger man?" the term itself is sexist! when was the last time you heard someone say "be the bigger woman" in a situation that involves both genders?
The way sexism is entrenched in language is a big part of why I wrote:
Most of society is deeply sexist to this day in spite of what changes have been made over the last century.
However, I would not find it strange to hear: "be the bigger person", and would attempt to make my mind produce that version (though I can't guarantee I'd manage it every time, not least because my ageing brain doesn't learn new habits as reliably as it used to).
and as such his retaliation was a measured response that was completely appropriate.
To the extent that retaliation is considered an appropriate response at all. I would like to persuade people that it may not be.
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and as such his retaliation was a measured response that was completely appropriate.
To the extent that retaliation is considered an appropriate response at all. I would like to persuade people that it may not be.
my world view is a bit more old school than is considered proper by many in this day and age. i have little to no tolerance for poor behavior and am very much of the eye for an eye philosophy. exhaust and all lesser means that are available and appropriate, but do not shirk from doing what needs to be done, when it needs to be done.
whats the cliche about what the father taught his son... "never start a fight, but always finish it." yea, its generally the paradigm i fall back to in extremis.
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Damn! :oops:
But at what point do we decide that no metaphor is permissible...?
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However, I would not find it strange to hear: "be the bigger person", and would attempt to make my mind produce that version (though I can't guarantee I'd manage it every time, not least because my ageing brain doesn't learn new habits as reliably as it used to).
Ah, ah, ah! As a society, we should eliminate the need to codify the "bigger people" of the world as the "better" ones.
Nah, everyone knows short people are subhuman.
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Have those sticky notes been on the fridge before?
The last place I could find the kitchen with a quick click through only had a side view of the refrigerator.
Also, woah, has anyone noticed before the fridge has a D but refrigerator doesn't?
Anyway, I like the sticky notes and I wish I could make out the writing on them.
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Have those sticky notes been on the fridge before?
The last place I could find the kitchen with a quick click through only had a side view of the refrigerator.
Also, woah, has anyone noticed before the fridge has a D but refrigerator doesn't?
Anyway, I like the sticky notes and I wish I could make out the writing on them.
Yup, they've been there before. The one with writing says "Faye, stop wasting post-its"
Refrigerator doesn't have a D because it is latinate, but when people came to spell the shortened form, they took guidance from more English/Germanic words like hedge and wedge.
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I have a question for people calling Marten an asshole:
Would he still be an asshole if he had been honest and told Padma, "I don't want to see you because I resent the fact that you waited until the last minute to call me?"
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I have a question for people calling Marten an asshole:
Would he still be an asshole if he had been honest and told Padma, "I don't want to see you because I resent the fact that you waited until the last minute to call me?"
I think thats a valid point and a good values clarification. I don't think he's an asshole at all. I think he didn't do anything wrong. I'm not sure what the sturm and drang is about. If its because he 'lied', I would argue its less hurtful than having their last conversation be acrimonious. If this were a relationship in progress then I would be in favor of working through the issues. But EVERY INDICATOR points to the relationship being de facto over. As far as he knows, Padma is moving away and for whatever reason didn't want to spend the last week with him.
I think its actually probably the most healthy response to the hand he was dealt. I would be curious what would have been 'better'. 'I don't know why you didn't want to spend time with me but I still care about you?'. Pathetic.
'I dont understand you didn't want to spend time with me but I'd like to end on a positive note. I enjoyed the time we spent together?' Probably a better outcome, but really, I'd say its at least as dishonest as just telling her he was busy. He's hurt and angry and he has good reason.
Padma had ended the relationship, marten was just acknowledging this.
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I have a question for people calling Marten an asshole:
Would he still be an asshole if he had been honest and told Padma, "I don't want to see you because I resent the fact that you waited until the last minute to call me?"
I think that would have been the best thing for him to have done. It might have pushed her to have been more honest with him about why she disappeared and then decided to leave early. Oh well...'tis done! Forward on~
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I don't think he's an asshole. I think there is NO reason he should chase after her. She decided to dog him all week. Move on. Life's too short to deal with people who don't have their shit together and/or treat you like crap. I think if it was a girl in Martin's place people would look at this differently. Guy sleeps with a girl, doesn't call her, puts her off when she calls him, and just before he's going to leave town calls her up, possibly for a little action before he leaves town for good? Yeah, no one would call her a bitch for telling that guy "No thanks." And if there was a good reason she's dogged him and left early? Then she should have TOLD HIM. Again, life is too short to deal with that crap. I don't care if you don't have the emotional maturity to speak up with the truth, the fact is, no good relationship can live without truth. The onus is not on Martin here as far as I can see. He kept calling her, she kept being evasive. No matter what the reason, unless she fesses up, he has no responsibility to be a door mat.
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Marten's not an asshole, at least to the extent that children are not assholes when they pull this shit. Petty, childish, and irrational I'll grant you, but he's no Black Hat Guy, much less a Mike.
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If QC was a TV show he'd chase after her. Marten would chase her to the airport, there would be tears, and moving speeches. I like to think Jeph will do something a little more creative than that.
F1RST P0ST, WOOO!
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It's really all about a lack of communication- had there been more of it, it's fairly safe to surmise that we wouldn't all be having this debate. And the comic would end up being pretty boring.
As I stated before.....neither of them owes the other one anything. They both acted in ways that were not conducive to starting a relationship (and rightfully so- because Padma was leaving no matter what). If there was a chance that she would stay, it might have ended differently and they may have given each other a little more respect. I think a lot of people are getting worked up about it because Padma was finally starting to feel like a regular to us, but the truth is that she and Marten had very little interaction before they slept together. If we didn't know Padma previously from tSB this would have been nothing but a glorified one (ok, two) night stand. They probably don't even know each others last names!
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Lack of communication also causes LOT of unneeded drama. Especially when people jump to conclusions by taking the meaning of a statement out of context.
Sometimes I suspect people of damn near doing it on purpose, which probably does not help my growing misanthropy* as I age. I'd gladly put up with a less interesting life.
*In context it means I am referring to people of all genders, races, creeds, religions, disabilities, and fetishes. You can stop fondling your righteous indignation now.
I have a question for people calling Marten an asshole:
Would he still be an asshole if he had been honest and told Padma, "I don't want to see you because I resent the fact that you waited until the last minute to call me?"
I think that would have been the best thing for him to have done. It might have pushed her to have been more honest with him about why she disappeared and then decided to leave early. Oh well...'tis done! Forward on~
Yeah, being upfront and honest when done right is usually the best thing. An added benefit is you don't hand the less ethical people a reason to blame you for being upset that they mistreated you.
Yes, I have had people try that crap on me.
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Perhaps we can make allowances, when second-guessing the characters, for the fact that they have limited relationship experience. Even expanding it to secondary characters, the only long term success I can think of is the Bianchi parents.
Looking at it from Marten's point of view, a plausible interpretation of what Padma was doing is that she was communicating "You're not worth talking to on the phone or returning messages, but I'll use you as a booty call". There's a good chance that isn't what she meant at all, but refusing to be used like that is a perfectly respectable response.
Out of curiosity, what would people have thought if Marten had left a message to Padma saying "I understand what you're telling me, and I won't call again. I enjoyed our time together, and wish you all the best."?
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Wow! Four pages since I last Posted - And talk about analysis.
Heh
Still, I suppose we all have our pinch points
'Wait! What?!? Chuckles the Wooden? What the hell?! CHUCKLES THE WOODEN???!!!!!! Gaaaah!!!!!'
Heh, leave it to Faye to distill it down to something so basic.
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I'm not sure if someone's already mentioned this but:
MOVING SUCKS.
I just moved across the country (Massachusetts to Hawaii) and the last week I was in town, I broke a lot of plans, and basically only saw people if they specifically came over (generally uninvited) to help me pack. Like, I don't think Padme blew Marten off for no reason -- I think when you're trying to move your whole life on fairly short notice (in my case, my husband got restationed, and in hers her g'ma is ill) that sometimes you have to be selfish with your time.
This doesn't mean Marten's totally in the wrong -- I get that his feelings are hurt, and that when you flake there's consequences -- but I'm just really surprised at how many people in the forum are all, "oh she blew him off" when she's moving herself across the country.
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That said, it is...pretty insensitive to ask "why do women [play emotional games]?" One might ask in return, "why are men such inconsiderate pricks?"
If more than one woman does it, then "women" is an appropriate term. On the other hand, saying "women" to mean "women as a class" is a step on the road to stereotyping, because women are a pretty diverse bunch of people.
On another subject, no amount of moderation could make a good forum out of bad people. The forum works because of people who make good posts, which then attract more of the same. All moderators can do is keep toxic ingredients out of the soup.
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The sexism conversation continues! Frankly, calling out sexism is as much an accusation as is calling out the naturalistic fallacy. The difference between sexism and other fallacies in these modern-day coversations is that it is a social faux pas, the fart among liberals. But saying something sexist doesn't inherently make someone a bad person. They're probs a good person - who said something sexist, and also once got a math problem wrong. The "accusations" of sexism are pointing out minor possible gender biases, which needs to be discussed, not hushed, because sexism is a big issue.
As for flipping the genders, I'd be careful to take into account gender norms and what happens to people when they deviate from them i.e. when a man has feelings, or when a woman doesn't. If a man did what Padma did to Marten, I speculate he would be considered an asshole (not a bitch) and the condemnation would revolve around how "clueless" and "sex-hungry" men are, not how manipulative. (The male stereotypes are still awful and untrue.) A gender-neutral condemnation would be that she didn't take into account his feelings, and failed to communicate. Do we know anything besides that?
Also: I remember someone asked Jeph how he writes women characters so well. He responded that he just writes them as people.
Also also: I really hope I didn't drag this issue out further. Like, I just don't think having the sexism conversation is that bad. And if people disagree on whether something is sexist - GOOD! I just hope they do it with knowledge, as people have managed earlier in the thread.
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All moderators can do is keep toxic ingredients out of the soup.
I really enjoy the way you put this. :-) Good job monitoring the soup!
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I'm not sure if someone's already mentioned this but:
MOVING SUCKS.
I just moved across the country (Massachusetts to Hawaii) and the last week I was in town, I broke a lot of plans, and basically only saw people if they specifically came over (generally uninvited) to help me pack. Like, I don't think Padme blew Marten off for no reason -- I think when you're trying to move your whole life on fairly short notice (in my case, my husband got restationed, and in hers her g'ma is ill) that sometimes you have to be selfish with your time.
This doesn't mean Marten's totally in the wrong -- I get that his feelings are hurt, and that when you flake there's consequences -- but I'm just really surprised at how many people in the forum are all, "oh she blew him off" when she's moving herself across the country.
I understand where you're coming from, and Padma certainly is going through a big move and also seems to be wading through some deep emotional confusion as well, but even if the only reason she hadn't called was because she really was busy all week packing I don't think that this entirely excuses her in this case.
Remember, as far as Marten knew at the time Padma WASN'T moving. She'd put it off for a week, presumably just to spend a little bit more time with him. I think that part of the anger that had Marten blowing Padma off was rooted in his surprise that she was leaving the next day - last he'd heard they had another week. She didn't call him to let him know that she'd changed the date she was leaving again until the night before and suddenly there was no more time.
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(We were doing so well, too. Anyway.)
Padma didn't have an obligation to hang out with Marten all week, even if she caused him to think that she would.
1. They haven't had a "relationship talk."
2. In fact, she told him this was a short-term deal, and hasn't hinted at otherwise.
3. Her staying is at her own expense, making it a large opportunity cost.
4. He's not a particularly busy man, so he has no opportunity cost for waiting on her to call the shots.
She also wasn't obligated to tell him why she had changed her mind.
5. And he didn't ask.
6. It is his obligation to ask for things he wants.
7. He didn't tell her that he needed time with her or he would move on. He left the ball entirely in her court.
Assuming Padma wasn't playing games--she really doesn't seem the type of person, more likely she was in combined panic/denial--I think her actions are okay, if not great. She could be more forthcoming, which would sustain the friendship or grow the relationship, but she's never promised anything. And why are we assuming she was making a booty call, not an "I just want to hang out on a park bench with you for an hour" call? The latter's been more common for me upon people important to me leaving.
In contrast, Marten blew off Padma when he had nothing better to do--and he didn't--and may never see her again. He acted like an asshole towards someone who should have been a friend first, because he didn't get what he wanted. (I understand that he didn't consider her a friend first, and I find that sad.)
But he was probably just trying to protect himself.
It's just too bad he's the kind of person who needs to. Not that it doesn't put him in the majority.
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I didn't really get the impression Padma was playing games or blowing him off. It seemed to me like what was happening was she was developing real relationshippy feelings for Martin, but given the timing, didn't know what to do with that. And since they were at the slept-together-but-haven't-been-together-long-enough point in their relationship to talk about love and whatnot (they were both employing the face-saving mechanisms of being careful not to confess too much too soon), I imagine she might have felt stuck and unable to decide what to do. That's the impression I got from the look on her face in the last panel they were together, to the hesitant conversation on the phone. She handled it badly, but I don't think it was malicious, and who really knows what she might have suggested (long distance relationship? A move back in 6 months? Maybe neither?) if Martin had gone over there to find out what was up rather than let his temper and pride decide things.
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Damned Indecision And Cursed Pride
Kept My Love For Her Locked Deep Inside
And It Cuts Like A Knife
She's Out Of My Life
I wonder if Jeph's going to leave this a mystery, as it is to Marten right now? Padma's never been a viewpoint character, so we may never know what was going on with her.
She had no way to know that she was reminding him of Vicki.
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Forumite judgments aside, I think story wise Marten's in for some judgmentalism from the other characters, with Elliott making the opening statement and Faye providing exhibit 1. We've seen Dora prepping Exhibit 2. None of them will be 100 percent right or wrong -- though Elliott came damn close with his "expect better" moment.
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So, Moving on from the straight up Padma/Marten topic slightly here, who else feels Faye's reaction was pretty lame?
I was slightly puzzled by Marten's line about being an asshole until I really thought about how accusatory Faye's "Why in the hell did you do that?!" must have been.
But even his later "aren't you going to disagree-" shows what he's really asking for is help - he wants someone to tell him that his actions were justified, or even just to tell him to explain it all so they know what's going on.
But instead Faye jumps in, agreeing with his self-deprecating (sarcastic?) comment - she's not being thoughtful or trying to understand, she's judged him entirely on Marten's: "Apparently not, she called last night and wanted to see me, but I told her I was busy."
Pretty poor performance for such a close friend, I feel.
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She also wasn't obligated to tell him why she had changed her mind.
5. And he didn't ask.
6. It is his obligation to ask for things he wants.
7. He didn't tell her that he needed time with her or he would move on. He left the ball entirely in her court.
Assuming Padma wasn't playing games--she really doesn't seem the type of person, more likely she was in combined panic/denial--I think her actions are okay, if not great. She could be more forthcoming, which would sustain the friendship or grow the relationship, but she's never promised anything. And why are we assuming she was making a booty call, not an "I just want to hang out on a park bench with you for an hour" call? The latter's been more common for me upon people important to me leaving.
In contrast, Marten blew off Padma when he had nothing better to do--and he didn't--and may never see her again. He acted like an asshole towards someone who should have been a friend first, because he didn't get what he wanted. (I understand that he didn't consider her a friend first, and I find that sad.)
But he was probably just trying to protect himself.
It's just too bad he's the kind of person who needs to. Not that it doesn't put him in the majority.
When would he have asked? All the numerous phone calls she picked up? The dates that she kept? What would he have asked? "Hey, you haven't by any chance changed your plans dramatically without finding it convenient to tell me, have you?" There were feelings involved here. Even if this was just a temporary thing, I don't think that mutual respect is too much to hope for, and she doesn't really show much of it when she dramatically changes her plans, as they affect him, arguably because of him, and not tell him until she delivers an ultimatum with a nice serving of emotional blackmail: "see me for the last time now or never again." She doesn't have an obligation, maybe, but she doesn't have the common decency either. Marten blew off Padma because she'd already blew him off for an entire week, and had now moved her plans up like this, and he was angry about it. Did she have a moral obligation to not do those things? Maybe not. But does it show any respect or consideration for Marten? Nope.
So, Moving on from the straight up Padma/Marten topic slightly here, who else feels Faye's reaction was pretty lame?
I was slightly puzzled by Marten's line about being an asshole until I really thought about how accusatory Faye's "Why in the hell did you do that?!" must have been.
But even his later "aren't you going to disagree-" shows what he's really asking for is help - he wants someone to tell him that his actions were justified, or even just to tell him to explain it all so they know what's going on.
But instead Faye jumps in, agreeing with his self-deprecating (sarcastic?) comment - she's not being thoughtful or trying to understand, she's judged him entirely on Marten's: "Apparently not, she called last night and wanted to see me, but I told her I was busy."
Pretty poor performance for such a close friend, I feel.
Maybe she really liked Padma and hadn't totally taken in to account how Padma had made Marten feel. I don't know. It's hard to understand, I agree.
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I admit I haven't read the whole thread but I'd just like to comment on Faye's reaction. The way things have been presented to her she might be misunderstanding the chain of events. We know that the chain went "Marten tries to contact her but doesn't want to be too pushy about it (not going to see her at the bakery), Padma calls him up and tells him that she is leaving the next day (no apology for blowing him off, springing the sudden departure on him, or reason for leaving (i assume that this week her Grandma had a turn for the worse and she just sort of shut down)), then he tells her he is busy like a passive aggressive asshole. The way it has been presented to Faye goes more "Marten tries to contact her but is too passive aggressive about it (I do think going to the bakery at least ONCE during the week was called for at least to see if everything was ok with her like a boyfriend might), Marten told her that he was busy like an asshole, Padma leaves the next day (probably because of his passive aggressive stance that week and feeling hurt when she calls 'finally' and he rudely blows her off). Faye's probably going to calm down when she realizes that Padma has kept him in the dark the entire week which is avoiding him and avoiding the inevitable confrontation of her leaving that week and although still disapproving of what he did and chiding him for it warming up a little. I honestly hope that Padma's character isn't the kind of person who would start sleeping with a guy regularly and not keep him informed about leaving as though he wouldn't be affected on an emotional level. We know that Marten has been hurt. We know that if he had gone to the bakery the next day and been told by Elliot or anyone else that Padma had already left that he would be devastated. I don't think that she was afraid of her feelings so much as she realized that she liked Marten a little too much to just up and leave and completely shatter his heart. It kind of makes what she did worse. I don't like or respect you enough to be honest with you about me leaving this week but hey, why don't I come by and give you a roll in the hay before you drive me to the airport (probably not the actual way she traveled but the offer seems like a laughable exaggeration of how this fictional Padma would act).
Don't absolve either of them and don't put all of the blame on one. Marten should have stopped by the bakery he had frequented prior to their hookup at least once that week but Padma should have called him at least twice before her offer of a last hookup. I think we can all agree on one thing though and this is the important part. Next time Marten see Elliot that high five s going to hurt. A lot. possibly even break his nose.
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It seems my simple three-line scenario that seems to me to explain everything just didn't have enough words* to be satisfying - judging by the walls of text that continue to appear, and the listings of who blew off whom and when and who was playing what game and what everyone's obligations were.
* Or blame. Clearly I didn't assign enough blame to be acceptable.
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* Or blame. Clearly I didn't assign enough blame to be acceptable.
It's no fun unless we can make someone in to a pariah :D
In truth, I'm considering everyone's scenarios, and they're all very interesting, but I'm not going to take them as... sufficient explanation to excuse anyone. I mean, in the end, a lot of them end up feeling a bit contrived to me, and are so for the soul purpose of excusing the actions of the people that we otherwise can't really attribute to anything else. If I'm going to make assumptions, I'd rather just make the simplest ones. I think this is a perfect application of Occam's Razor, though I can be kind of a dumbass so it might not be an appropriate application of it.
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In contrast, Marten blew off Padma when he had nothing better to do--and he didn't--and may never see her again. He acted like an asshole towards someone who should have been a friend first, because he didn't get what he wanted. (I understand that he didn't consider her a friend first, and I find that sad.)
You have a much lower threshold for 'asshole' than I (and I think most people) do.
He certainly went further for the friendship' than she did.
He answered the phone when she called.
I had the same question Milesb did. Why did FAYE say he was an asshole? Albeit, I think we've established Faye has a ...skewed... lens of appropriate behavior.
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However, I would not find it strange to hear: "be the bigger person", and would attempt to make my mind produce that version (though I can't guarantee I'd manage it every time, not least because my ageing brain doesn't learn new habits as reliably as it used to).
Ah, ah, ah! As a society, we should eliminate the need to codify the "bigger people" of the world as the "better" ones.
Nah, everyone knows short people are subhuman.
Don't MAKE me bite your kneecaps, penguin.
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Damned Indecision And Cursed Pride
Kept My Love For Her Locked Deep Inside
And It Cuts Like A Knife
She's Out Of My Life
I wonder if Jeph's going to leave this a mystery, as it is to Marten right now? Padma's never been a viewpoint character, so we may never know what was going on with her.
She had no way to know that she was reminding him of Vicki.
Well, we don't know why Faye's dad killed himself. Or what Vicki really thought of Marten. So I'm suspecting we've heard the last of Padma (sadly).
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For what it's worth...
After reflection I feel Martin did the right thing.
A possible motivation... not wanting to repeat the Viki thing. Also, he's coming to grips with how to be more assertive. As he stretches his assertiveness-wings he may knock over a few lamps... stumble a few times... but in the end as he develops his ability to assert himself he will become a better person.
This is one such stumble.
If Dora and Faye are really his friends, and I think they are... they will of course offer opinions on what just transpired then life will move on.
Of course what the %&* do I know... Jeph could be planning to kill Dora and Faye in a HORRIBLE PLANE CRASH next week then introducing the staff of SuperPizza!(TM). :-D
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It seems my simple three-line scenario that seems to me to explain everything just didn't have enough words* to be satisfying
Correct.
When would he have asked? All the numerous phone calls she picked up?
They talked at least three times when she was first blowing him off. I sincerely doubt that in those messages he left he actually asked for an explanation.
What would he have asked?
"Are you avoiding me now for some reason?" "Did I do something wrong?"
She doesn't have an obligation, maybe, but she doesn't have the common decency either.
She is Padma. He knew that.
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She is Padma. He knew that.
Being a shitty person doesn't excuse shitty behavious. :laugh:
One thing I've been considering though is that Marten didn't really ever let on the way he felt about her. He's been conditioned by all his previous relationships, and in his advice from his friends, to be cool, to be a little withdrawn, to just enjoy the moment and not worry too much about the future, and as a result... whenever they're together, he doesn't really let on just how in to her he was. Like, the time when he was determined to just "Play this friend style" (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2073 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2073)). Or the time she suggested she might be hanging around (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2075 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2075)). He's just sort of been lukewarm. And he's been lukewarm in an attempt to not fuck things up, but it looks like he's just managed to fuck things up in the process. The road to hell, best intentions, etc. On reflection, I think she might have conducted herself differently if he had let her know how he was feeling, but he, like her I suspect, avoided doing so in an attempt to spare eachother their feelings. Looks like they would've just been better off falling for each other and then having nice memories than conducting this charade of self discipline.
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"Are you avoiding me now for some reason?" "Did I do something wrong?"
I used bad examples. It wouldn't have to be much more than: "Is something wrong?" "Are you all right?" "Can I come over?" Instead of "hey just wanted to see if you're busy" "wanna hang out?" kind of deal I imagine.
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"Are you avoiding me now for some reason?" "Did I do something wrong?"
I used bad examples. It wouldn't have to be much more than: "Is something wrong?" "Are you all right?" "Can I come over?" Instead of "hey just wanted to see if you're busy" "wanna hang out?" kind of deal I imagine.
Totally. Way too lukewarm. :\ He just wanted to avoid appearing overeager though, I guess. Or pressuring her. Which I get. I'm usually of the opinion that it's best not to pry, and that the people I care about know that I'm there to talk when/if they need to, but I guess Marten and Padma never really had an opportunity to have a conversation that serious.
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Something I've noticed no one has mentioned yet: What if there was a conversation that occurred off-panel between the two strips? If I remember correctly, there was a conversation during the break-up with Dora that wasn't shown, but Marten mentioned it out loud in a conversation. So who's to say he didn't call her back or go to her house or go to the bakery and simply hasn't had the chance to mention that part yet? Good story-telling sometimes means that crucial information is left out so we'll make the wrong assumptions and have to re-read when we find out the truth of the matter. :-D
It's going to be long weekend on here, isn't it?
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if he had every reason to act the way he did, then what he did is not wrong. if he had acted the way he did with no justification then i'd agree he was in the wrong.
I tend not to lend credence to simple axioms, but one of the few that I do is that, if you need to justify your behaviour, you probably shouldn't have been behaving that way in the first place. Justfication is always a mistake (and the source of all moral decay) because, frankly, you can justify just about anything (cf. the legal and political systems in every country on the planet)--and once you start doing that, all your destructive behaviours become the fault of other people; you're just the poor little victim who was defending himself or herself.
To relate it to the immediate situation: Marten behaved badly. End of story. Padma doesn't figure into the situation at all. He had a chance to act like an adult and go after what he wanted--whether that's a booty call, a relationship, or, most of all, an explanation for the weeklong absence--and he instead chose throw that opportunity away in order to deliberately hurt someone who, while possibly thoughtless, is his friend.
That's the whole story, right there. Getting into "but she did this and that and the other thing" and all that is just victimhood talk that, eventually, leaves you completely alone because no one wants to put up with the dick who blames his bad behaviour on everyone else.
Now, to make sure I'm clear, I'm not saying Padma's behaviour doesn't matter at all--I'm saying it doesn't matter in our evaluation of Marten's behaviour. Padma, so far as our current level of awareness regarding her situation allows us to say, also behaved badly (unless she really was just desperately packing. I once spent 72 straight hours packing just to get done by the time the movers showed up, so I can buy that)--but she eventually did the right thing, confronted her fears, and called him. She made a choice that, although it was unsuccessful and caused her pain, was the better thing for her to do. She can walk away knowing that, even if she screwed up, she tried to make it better. That doesn't justify it (or else I'd be a flaming hypocrite), but it does ameliorate it.
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Sigh. Had a sudden semi-related thought while writing that last post. I beg your pardon for making two posts in a row.
Taking this phase of the storyline as a whole to this point, the arc really starts with Padma and Marten in bed, with Marten proclaiming that he used to be much whinier and that he's calmed down quite a bit. Everything since then has been proving that Marten, like many people, is only calm so long as things are going his way.
There's a special subset of people (and I happen to be a recovering member) who, when all the stars align and their lives start going smoothly, interpret it as personal growth. Then, when they hit an obstacle, everything falls apart because they haven't actually grown or learned to deal with their problems--suddenly all their problems in life are the result of that one obstacle and, if only that person hadn't told her that her new haircut didn't look good (I once spent three hours talking someone down from a major life crisis brought on by that exact comment from one of her friends), then everything would have been fine.
In other words, if they didn't have problems, they wouldn't have problems (which I believe was first published in the popular psychology journal, Duh Magazine). In a way, it actually ties into the victimhood theme I was looking at in my previous post.
If the storyline continues to play out as it has thus far, then this arc is about Marten learning that he's given himself too much credit--which is, frankly, the only way to remove that particular obstacle to real personal growth (and I'm betting Faye and Dora aren't going to let him miss seeing it).
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I tend not to lend credence to simple axioms, but one of the few that I do is that, if you need to justify your behaviour, you probably shouldn't have been behaving that way in the first place. Justfication is always a mistake (and the source of all moral decay) because, frankly, you can justify just about anything (cf. the legal and political systems in every country on the planet)--and once you start doing that, all your destructive behaviours become the fault of other people; you're just the poor little victim who was defending himself or herself.
To relate it to the immediate situation: Marten behaved badly. End of story. Padma doesn't figure into the situation at all. He had a chance to act like an adult and go after what he wanted--whether that's a booty call, a relationship, or, most of all, an explanation for the weeklong absence--and he instead chose throw that opportunity away in order to deliberately hurt someone who, while possibly thoughtless, is his friend.
That's the whole story, right there. Getting into "but she did this and that and the other thing" and all that is just victimhood talk that, eventually, leaves you completely alone because no one wants to put up with the dick who blames his bad behaviour on everyone else.
Spot on.
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There's a special subset of people (and I happen to be a recovering member) who, when all the stars align and their lives start going smoothly, interpret it as personal growth. Then, when they hit an obstacle, everything falls apart because they haven't actually grown or learned to deal with their problems
^^^ THIS
Totally agree. Marten thought he was growing because things were working out for him. Really he was just doing the opposite of what he did in the Vicki situation, instead of acting as the situation needed. The problem was that Marten was trying to act cool and be rational, yet at the last minute he didn't follow through and instead got emotional.
Situations such as these have this push-pull between emotional/intuitive "go with your gut" and a rationalising "don't repeat the same mistakes". It all gets jumbled up and then when the outcome isn't what we wanted we think "oh I should (have / have not) gone with my intuition". Its when you try to do both and end up doing neither. Rationality is counter productive to emotion/intuition as emotion/intuition is to rationality. He should have stuck to his guns, but at the last minute he betrayed all the "growth" that he had made.
One thing I've been considering though is that Marten didn't really ever let on the way he felt about her. He's been conditioned by all his previous relationships, and in his advice from his friends, to be cool, to be a little withdrawn, to just enjoy the moment and not worry too much about the future, and as a result... whenever they're together, he doesn't really let on just how in to her he was. ... On reflection, I think she might have conducted herself differently if he had let her know how he was feeling, but he, like her I suspect, avoided doing so in an attempt to spare each other their feelings.
^ This.
Also this: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2024 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2024)
Apply what Elliot says in Panel 3 to Marten. Suddenly Marten has this "big unrealistic fantasy that she'll realise she loves [Marten] and will decide to stay".
Also this: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2033 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2033)
Marten told Elliot to tell Padma that he was in love with her. Marten is being extremely contradictory in his actions (not that I would expect otherwise, just that he is sending very mixed messages). As far as Padma is aware, if he had feelings for her he should have just come out and said it like the advice he gave to Elliot. He didn't say anything so all Padma can assume from his actions that he thinks its just a bit of fun. She prompted him a few different times and he didn't react so she stuck around for a bit, then when it came close to the time she had to leave she distanced herself from him because he wasn't acting like it was going to affect him. My impression is that she did stick around the extra week or so, then when it was getting close to leaving she started freaking out and had to distance herself. Perhaps she didn't handle the situation in the best possible way, but as far as she knew, she was just a fling to him so she had a lot more to lose from becoming more involved.
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Regardless of what happened, I'm hoping that if Marten's behavior is discussed among the characters that we we see the same "grayness" to what he did being right or wrong as has apparently been represented in the forum. It would be uncharacteristically wise, if not hypocritical, if everyone in the cast saw Marten's behavior as wrong. Considering the difference in personalities and the experiences of everyone, there should be those who understand why Marten behaved like he did while not agreeing with said behavior. The same way it is in the forum.
Everyone in agreement would be boring and too simple.
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Why are people acting like Padma treated Marten badly? Or "used" him? She behaved in a way consistent with the parameters established at the beginning of their involvement. They were not dating, they were not boyfriend and girlfriend. They were two adults who decided to hook up temporarily. There was no emotional obligation. "OMG, she wanted a booty call after not talking for a week!" The whole relationship has been one long booty call. That was the point.
Both misread the others intentions. In his attempt to play it cool, he came off as NOT wanting anything more, so she assumed it wasn't. I can not see how she can be faulted for that. It struck me that she was starting to feel something for him, but if she believed he didn't feel the same way, avoiding him and moving the departure date back up is a perfectly reasonable response. Should she have been more straightforward with her feelings? Possibly, but we have the advantage of knowing Marten for years, she does not. She read his behavior at face value.
I wouldn't go so far as to say his final response was asshole-ish, but it was childish and petty. I can't say I entirely blame him for it, it was a very human response, but understanding it doesn't make it any less passive-aggressive and immature.
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The interesting part was where Marten fished for reassurance from Faye that what he did was OK; I'm glad she did not oblige.
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They're pretty much both at fault for how this turned out.
Marten wanted more going in but didn't say it openly.
Padma ended up wanting more but didn't say it openly.
It all comes down to a simple principle; be clear about what you want or don't be surprised if you don't get it.
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I wonder what Hannelore will say? She has proven remarkably insightful in the past, and paradoxically the voice of reason.
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For what it's worth...
After reflection I feel Martin did the right thing.
He's right, for the wrong reasons.
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It seems my simple three-line scenario that seems to me to explain everything just didn't have enough words* to be satisfying - judging by the walls of text that continue to appear, and the listings of who blew off whom and when and who was playing what game and what everyone's obligations were.
* Or blame. Clearly I didn't assign enough blame to be acceptable.
There are quite a few people here who would also like to be the "voice of reason" here. I'd say yours just got lost in the shuffle. :) (Besides, everyone wants to get their viewpoints in because complaining is therapeutic!) :lol:
2. In fact, she told him this was a short-term deal, and hasn't hinted at otherwise.
Did she ever actually say that? I don't think they ever did have such a conversation. I got the impression that they've just been doing this stuff together without actually discussing the implications of it. And the fact that she decided to stay longer seemed to imply that she was considering a long-term deal with Marten. (or at least, that's how Marten seemed to interpret it (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2075))
In contrast, Marten blew off Padma when he had nothing better to do--and he didn't--and may never see her again. He acted like an asshole towards someone who should have been a friend first, because he didn't get what he wanted. (I understand that he didn't consider her a friend first, and I find that sad.)
I think I have a different definition of the word "asshole" than you do. To me, the word implies malicious intent and/or carelessly hurting someone for no reason. I didn't get the impression that Marten did what he did to be malicious toward Padma or that he didn't give any thought about her feelings, more that he felt that she was leading him on and hurting him and he was trying to stop her from hurting him further. Obviously, he didn't handle it as well as he could have, but the "asshole" label doesn't really apply unless you have a different definition for the word.
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I think I have a different definition of the word "asshole" than you do. To me, the word implies malicious intent and/or carelessly hurting someone for no reason. I didn't get the impression that Marten did what he did to be malicious toward Padma or that he didn't give any thought about her feelings, more that he felt that she was leading him on and hurting him and he was trying to stop her from hurting him further. Obviously, he didn't handle it as well as he could have, but the "asshole" label doesn't really apply unless you have a different definition for the word.
From Padma's perspective:
She knows the break-up is coming and it will suck. She doesn't know if Marten can make it better (this is supported by the remark in bed the last time they met). She might want him to prove to her that he can make her feel better. To come over without her asking. To prove he is as emotionally invested as she is. To make something better. But he doesn't. She does not see that she is being just as childish as he is. She just wants it to suck less. She wants to see that she's not just a stupid girl falling in love with the wrong guy. Who knows? Maybe she just panicked.
As the time winds down, she understands that he isn't going to come. She decides, against her earlier judgement, that she likes him enough to see him one last time. Despite not immediately agreeing with her that they should have been together longer, she thinks he deserves it. That they could have one romantic night, and leave on a good note. And then he blows her off, without giving a reason less nebulous that "I'm busy". Leaving her alone, not sure if he really cares, not sure if her worst fears are true or not. In that last act, he didn't behave like a boyfriend. He acted like a self-centered asshole.
This is just one possible scenario. It's doing the exact same thing as Marten did only earlier, because he triggered it with a stupid remark he didn't think about. Did Marten consider this? Not according to his conversations with the rest of the cast. He doesn't even understand his own reaction. It's a knee-jerk reply, which he can't rationally explain. So according to your definition, he carelessly hurt Padma for no reason. And is an asshole.
No one is saying Marten is a scumbag, looking to hurt Padma (well, a few are). Everyone should know he's too passive to do that. He felt unwanted when she didn't want to be with him, and that sucks. Thinking about her hurt him, so after a week of getting pushed away and trying to not think about her, he just acted on instinct. But he obviously didn't consider the fact that Padma could be just as hurt as he was.
That being said, it is kind of about time. He's been trying to please everyone since the comic began, and this is the first time he didn't (even when he broke up with Dora, he did it because she left him no option to make things better). He did it clumsily, and mishandled it terribly. But it's a step on the right path. He did something (without understanding why) because HE WANTED TO DO IT. Good for him. People shouldn't be nice all the time. That world would be hypocritical and disgusting.
I'm still wondering why Faye's blatant disregard for Marten's feelings when he's been on edge for so long isn't getting more attention though.
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I'm going to say some things that were likely discussed previously, so bare with me, okay? I think Martin is worried about being hurt, and he had just gotten out of a relationship that had almost devastated him. I think what SHOULD have happened, is the interference from his friends. Sometimes, you CANNOT let people who are passive aggressive make these kinds of decisions final. Sometimes, you have to do it for them, I know because I'm also very passive aggressive. If Faye had went over there, instead of expecting Martin to do the right thing, and talk with Padma herself, I think things may have been better. It is further likely that he had seen the signs of the relationship prematurely ending before they had left, or had interpreted them as such.
I know some are going to think this makes little sense, but in the end, Faye, Padma, Martin, they were all responsible for what had happened. Padma may have wanted Martin to go to her, but she made it worse by pouring gasoline on the fire and avoiding him by using shitty excuses. It is Martin's fault for not saying anything, hell, it would've been better if he had asked for Faye's help. And it is Faye's help for realizing that he really needed someone to drag him over there. Good friends do that, even if they know you aren't going to like it at first.
I can't believe anyone had thought this would go great when Padma blew him off the first time. I had almost seen it coming a mile away...
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Why are people acting like Padma treated Marten badly? Or "used" him? She behaved in a way consistent with the parameters established at the beginning of their involvement. They were not dating, they were not boyfriend and girlfriend. They were two adults who decided to hook up temporarily. There was no emotional obligation. "OMG, she wanted a booty call after not talking for a week!" The whole relationship has been one long booty call. That was the point.
Both misread the others intentions.
Thank youuuu, I've been thinking this same thing all along.
Fun last minute fling+Rebound+lack of communication= This will not end well
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We knew it wasn't going to end well back when we heard them both say to themselves, "I'm in trouble."
And foreshadowing THAT was way back here. (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2019)
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True, I just think a lot of people are upset with the way Padma and Marten treated each other because they're making the "relationship" seem more serious than it was. Should they have been nicer? Sure. But if nothing else happened off screen, to each other they're not much more than not-quite-strangers. People aren't as courteous to those that they don't interact with consistently.
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The interesting part was where Marten fished for reassurance from Faye that what he did was OK; I'm glad she did not oblige.
Really? So if you know that a close friend is upset (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2095) about a situation and they say "I've just done something stupid and made matters worse", you think "What the hell did you do that for, you asshole?" is the right response? Rather than, say, at least giving them a sympathetic hug (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1802) first?
Seems to me that Faye is being more of an asshole than anyone else in this situation.
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If you ask me, Marten's assholery doesn't come from 2099. It comes from the day between 2099 and 2100, when he realized he fucked up and did nothing. No apology, no explanation, nothing. Instead, he just sat around until she was actually gone.
Then again, he has her number. He could still call and talk to her, if she'll take the call. It probably won't bring them together, but it could help them both move on.
Also, to the person who suggested he did something off panel, that'd be nice, but he would've mentioned it to Faye.
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The interesting part was where Marten fished for reassurance from Faye that what he did was OK; I'm glad she did not oblige.
Really? So if you know that a close friend is upset (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2095) about a situation and they say "I've just done something stupid and made matters worse", you think "What the hell did you do that for, you asshole?" is the right response? Rather than, say, at least giving them a sympathetic hug (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1802) first?
Honestly, sometimes being blunt (different from being an asshole - Faye was stating the truth in a baldfaced manner, not being purposefully insulting to Marten) is the better thing to do as a friend. Not wrapping an opinion in cotton candy and puppy dogs is beneficial in some circumstances, because it doesn't dilute the advice/message that Faye's trying to get across - in this case, "You dun screwed up, boy!". If she were to validate his actions, she'd be less of a friend imo - he's trying to improve himself, and giving him false affirmation isn't going to do him any favors.
Some people need to be smacked in the face with the truth, and honestly, it's better that a friend do it, as they're more likely to sit down with you and discuss -why- what you did was wrong, rather than just point out the error and be on their way.
Sorry for the disjointed rambling.
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The interesting part was where Marten fished for reassurance from Faye that what he did was OK; I'm glad she did not oblige.
Really? So if you know that a close friend is upset (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2095) about a situation and they say "I've just done something stupid and made matters worse", you think "What the hell did you do that for, you asshole?" is the right response? Rather than, say, at least giving them a sympathetic hug (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1802) first?
The thing is, he didn't say "I've done something stupid and made it worse." He simply told her what he did, he made no statement suggesting he thought it was stupid. When she asked why he did it, he made a snarky passive-aggressive response.
Personally, I appreciate a friend who will call me out when I am being a douche. I have no problem with Faye's reaction. It is probably not the reaction I would have given, but I have a friend who totally would if I were in Marten's position and even if it pissed me off at the moment, I would eventually agree and be thankful I have a friend who is not afraid to tell me the truth.
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Honestly, sometimes being blunt (different from being an asshole - Faye was stating the truth in a baldfaced manner, not being purposefully insulting to Marten) is the better thing to do as a friend. Not wrapping an opinion in cotton candy and puppy dogs is beneficial in some circumstances, because it doesn't dilute the advice/message that Faye's trying to get across - in this case, "You dun screwed up, boy!". If she were to validate his actions, she'd be less of a friend imo - he's trying to improve himself, and giving him false affirmation isn't going to do him any favors.
Some people need to be smacked in the face with the truth, and honestly, it's better that a friend do it, as they're more likely to sit down with you and discuss -why- what you did was wrong, rather than just point out the error and be on their way.
Sorry for the disjointed rambling.
I agree with you in principle but not in any specific in regards to this situation;
- Faye doesn't know the full situation, as Friday's strip is obviously Marten only telling her about the call now. she knows Marten has some emotional investment in Padma (he's in CoD worrying about her, at least) and she knows he's not a playa or an abusive person (at least never deliberately) so tough love seems difficult to justify to me.
- There is definitely a line somewhere between cotton candy/puppy dogs and "you are an asshole." which would be preferable, perhaps a "That seems like a really, really stupid thing to have done, why did you do it?"
- Marten is incredibly defensive during Friday's strip, but look at the last panel, he looks pretty depressed to me - he needs someone to help him understand his feelings and his actions, not to berate him.
- as someone pointed out, only a little while before Christmas we saw Faye confused and asking herself questions she needed help with about her own relationship. Marten walked in and talked it through and handled it well. It seems a poor show that when Marten is in a similar position regarding feeling unsure of his actions and their justifications that Faye reacts so poorly.
(Marten helping Faye out link)
http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2082 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2082),
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I get what you're saying, but in Faye's case it was a different situation; she was feeling confused and insecure about the depth of her relationship with Angus - she didn't take it out on Angus, and she wasn't being a bitch.
Faye had enough background from the same strip you mentioned (where he's in CoD) to know that Marten obviously cares about Padma and was hoping that she'd return his calls, though was also aware from context that Padma was being non-communicative. The reason -why- wasn't apparent, but the general situation was pretty clear. When she finally did, he went for the petty retaliation.
And to be fair, Marten called himself an asshole first while Faye was simply agreeing with him, rather than falling into the fishing trap that he set for her. And yes, it was most definitely a fishing attempt - I've pulled enough of them in my days to know it when I see it :-P
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A fair cop, I guess the only response I'd put forward is that it seems like he's hiding his vulnerability behind it - surely something Faye should recognise in someone else having suffered it for a long time herself.
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Oh, no doubt he is hiding behind it. However, Faye knows what it's like to be there, and also likely knows that it's counterproductive to encourage the behavior, which by giving Marten the kind of attention/affirmation that he's looking for will likely do.
I don't know about these guys, but there have been times where behaviors I've had only get the desired result for so long. After a while, my friends got sick of it, and pretty much gave me a verbal (and necessary) bitch-slap, much as Faye has done to Marten. And I have to say, it was the best thing they could have done for me.
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I don't know about these guys, but there have been times where behaviors I've had only get the desired result for so long. After a while, my friends got sick of it, and pretty much gave me a verbal (and necessary) bitch-slap, much as Faye has done to Marten.
I hope I never encounter any of your friends. Anyone who would consider "You are an asshole" as an appropriate friend response to just about ANYTHING needs some serious mental therapy. Marten may have done something socially uncomfortable or whatnot, but after all this time, after everything in every strip, to suddenly start labelling him is just disgusting.
She didn't say something like "What you did is assholeish". She did not delineate behavior.
She simply called him a name, one that doesn't even come close to accurately describing him. That was neither necessary, nor is it helpful in the slightest.
At all.
Talking about behavior can help a person to recognize their behavior and work through it. Talking about behavior shows friendship.
Calling people names has the opposite effect- in the real world it oftentimes creates defensiveness, causing the labelled person to pull inside themselves. It's also a good way for the "friend" doing the name-calling to end up getting punched in the face.
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No, I never was called an asshole by my friends. But they were very blunt with me, regarding what they had problems with. And again I reiterate, it's not like Faye came out of nowhere and called him an asshole out of the blue. He called himself that first, and she simply agreed. Big difference.
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He called himself that first, and she simply agreed. Big difference.
I'm going to have to disagree on this. She KNOWS Marten. She knows that one of the first things he does in a stressful situation is to self-deprecate. That is who he is, what he does. In every scenario, in every situation, he turns to those he trusts, self deprecates, and eventually moves beyond.
She didn't "simply" do anything- she took his self deprecation and turned it against him as an insult in the worst possible way.
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Anyone who would consider "You are an asshole" as an appropriate friend response to just about ANYTHING needs some serious mental therapy.
It might be prudent to consider that the way this insult is viewed may vary in different places. In my part of the world it is a strong insult, but not one that needs to be avoided at any cost. If Faye had used it out of the blue (which she didn't) I would probably have been startled, but I would have been more likely to think: "she certainly feels strongly about that!" than: "she's beyond the pale for saying that!"; turning Marten's own deprecation back on him, as Faye did, would be entirely within bounds in my circle.
As an aside, this also illustrates one of the problems of moderating an international forum like this!
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A point someone made earlier, which somehow got lost, is that Marten didn't really argue for himself or present his side of the story. He may have been fishing, but it also looks like he could have been kicking himself and inviting Faye to help.
If Padma was busy moving, why didn't she invite Marten to help her pack?
True, I just think a lot of people are upset with the way Padma and Marten treated each other because they're making the "relationship" seem more serious than it was. Should they have been nicer? Sure. But if nothing else happened off screen, to each other they're not much more than not-quite-strangers. People aren't as courteous to those that they don't interact with consistently.
I see what you mean, but some consideration is appropriate after someone gets naked and vulnerable with you.
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Why didn't he call her back and say something?
Because he didn't want to hear her say the two words she probably would have said.
First word starts with an f, and the second is "you".
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I don't know about these guys, but there have been times where behaviors I've had only get the desired result for so long. After a while, my friends got sick of it, and pretty much gave me a verbal (and necessary) bitch-slap, much as Faye has done to Marten.
I hope I never encounter any of your friends. Anyone who would consider "You are an asshole" as an appropriate friend response to just about ANYTHING needs some serious mental therapy. Marten may have done something socially uncomfortable or whatnot, but after all this time, after everything in every strip, to suddenly start labelling him is just disgusting.
She didn't say something like "What you did is assholeish". She did not delineate behavior.
She simply called him a name, one that doesn't even come close to accurately describing him. That was neither necessary, nor is it helpful in the slightest.
At all.
Talking about behavior can help a person to recognize their behavior and work through it. Talking about behavior shows friendship.
Calling people names has the opposite effect- in the real world it oftentimes creates defensiveness, causing the labelled person to pull inside themselves. It's also a good way for the "friend" doing the name-calling to end up getting punched in the face.
This happened in the same comic strip where she just called Martin a "buttass" as a term of endearment. So I don't think she's exactly being literal; she's calling out his behavior by using the same words he just used to describe himself, only not sarcastically. It's a bit more poetic that way.
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FrozenPeas, I'm sure you are welcome to make two posts in a row when they are so brilliantly written. Although once again I don't entirely agree with you (just mostly agree).
I think that Marten has experienced some growth since #1800, but I think we're forgetting that this is QC time. I've only been around since #1804, but I can tell from the archives that it took a loooooooong time for Faye to get from "If I sense any lusting, I will stab you" (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=4) to managing to say that she loved someone (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2067). And then only meaning it in retrospect. My theory is that we expect character development to happen more quickly than it does because the days pass much more quickly for us than for them. I'm going to give a rough estimate of... let's say 3-4 months since Marten and Dora broke up, probably not even that. Time skips are pretty tricky things to judge. The point is, you're right about Marten only being calm as long as things are going well for him, but he was like that in the lead up to #1800, and it's fairly unreasonable for us to expect him to change that aspect of himself so quickly.
I also think that your haircut comment might be a bad example in this case, if only because Padma's actions likely had a much more serious effect on Marten than they should have. We can only really imagine how heartbroken he was by Vicky breaking up with him (although he was angry enough to be gratified when Faye assaulted her with a carton of milk (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=258)), and it's quite likely that this scenario brought up some painful memories of that time. It isn't really anybody's fault that Marten's memory (I'm assuming here) made that association, but it probably made him even more bitter than he already was, and that's why he acted so harshly.
So in summary, you're right about Marten's behaviour when things are/aren't going his way, but his character shouldn't be expected to grow that quickly, and this was likely a lot more serious for him than a minor obstacle.
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If Padma was busy moving, why didn't she invite Marten to help her pack?
Because the suggestion that her failure to call him was an accidental omission in her week long frenzy of packing was a bald faced lie, used to avoid openly admitting the more painful truth; she'd been avoiding him.This happened in the same comic strip where she just called Martin a "buttass" as a term of endearment. So I don't think she's exactly being literal; she's calling out his behavior by using the same words he just used to describe himself, only not sarcastically. It's a bit more poetic that way.
Faye's terms of endearment for Marten are pretty indelicate, but they're also warm. "You are an asshole!" conveyed absolutely no warmth, to me, though tone can be difficult to convey in comics.
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I found Marten's face portraying such anger and resentment as a likely indicator that Faye's tone was rather sharp, personally.
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I found Marten's face portraying such anger and resentment as a likely indicator that Faye's tone was rather sharp, personally.
In the panel she says it, to me, he mostly just looks deflated and fragile. I'm not making any implications about what that means for her tone though, I thought that was his face when he was uttering the words, not for when she interjected.
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Faye's terms of endearment for Marten are pretty indelicate, but they're also warm. "You are an asshole!" conveyed absolutely no warmth, to me, though tone can be difficult to convey in comics.
It seemed to me she was trying to snap him out of self pity by using his own words. I just don't get the impression that Faye literally thinks that Martin is an asshole, and I don't think Martin took it as "she thinks I'm an asshole in general." You don't live with someone on purpose that you think is an asshole, but sometimes friends in their 20s talk like that to each other., e.g., "you were a dick last night at the bar", "you're a monstrous slob," or "you're an asshole" for telling a girl you're supposedly "in love with" that you're busy on the last night she's in town just to get back at her.
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In the panel she says it, to me, he mostly just looks deflated and fragile. I'm not making any implications about what that means for her tone though, I thought that was his face when he was uttering the words, not for when she interjected.
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Agreed on the last panel. He seems more shocked and a little dismayed that Faye didn't jump right in and contradict him, in my opinion.
Faye's terms of endearment for Marten are pretty indelicate, but they're also warm. "You are an asshole!" conveyed absolutely no warmth, to me, though tone can be difficult to convey in comics.
It seemed to me she was trying to snap him out of self pity by using his own words. I just don't get the impression that Faye literally thinks that Martin is an asshole, and I don't think Martin took it as "she thinks I'm an asshole in general." You don't live with someone on purpose that you think is an asshole, but sometimes friends in their 20s talk like that to each other., e.g., "you were a dick last night at the bar", "you're a monstrous slob," or "you're an asshole" for telling a girl you're supposedly "in love with" that you're busy on the last night she's in town just to get back at her.
This! This was along the lines of what I had in mind, but sometimes I'm horrible about getting things into understandable terms. When my friends were blunt with me, it was to make me snap out of it, to make me realize that what I was doing wasn't working.
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Faye's terms of endearment for Marten are pretty indelicate, but they're also warm. "You are an asshole!" conveyed absolutely no warmth, to me, though tone can be difficult to convey in comics.
It seemed to me she was trying to snap him out of self pity by using his own words. I just don't get the impression that Faye literally thinks that Martin is an asshole, and I don't think Martin took it as "she thinks I'm an asshole in general." You don't live with someone on purpose that you think is an asshole, but sometimes friends in their 20s talk like that to each other., e.g., "you were a dick last night at the bar", "you're a monstrous slob," or "you're an asshole" for telling a girl you're supposedly "in love with" that you're busy on the last night she's in town just to get back at her.
No argument there. My friends and I trash talk eachother all the time, and yes, sometimes the ugly words aren't entirely in jest. I don't remember what my original point was. Maybe I didn't have one. Also, I'd say that if he ever was actually "in love" with Padma, the spell was probably broken before he rejected her.
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Just imagine how much more confused the characters would be if they could hear our analyses and advice.
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Just imagine how much more confused the characters would be if they could hear our analyses and advice.
And in unison, they all broke down in to tears as the disembodied voices relentlessly hammered them with cruel words and judgements most dire!
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Just imagine how much more confused the characters would be if they could hear our analyses and advice.
Wouldn't that be called schizophrenia, manic depression or psychosis?
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The first and the last, possibly, but not the middle - that's rapid mood swings. Which I believe is now called bi-polar.
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Really? So if you know that a close friend is upset (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2095) about a situation and they say "I've just done something stupid and made matters worse", you think "What the hell did you do that for, you asshole?" is the right response? Rather than, say, at least giving them a sympathetic hug (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1802) first?
Um, you reading the same comic as me? That's not what happened. If he'd actually said what you posted, maybe she would have responded differently, hmm?
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Just imagine how much more confused the characters would be if they could hear our analyses and advice.
Maybe that's what Hanner's problem is. She actually hears what we say on the internet forums. ;)
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Maybe that's what Hanner's problem is. She actually hears what we say on the internet forums. ;)
That would also explain her psychic powers - because we on the forums always forsee coming events in the comic with perfect clarity. ;)
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A point someone made earlier, which somehow got lost, is that Marten didn't really argue for himself or present his side of the story. He may have been fishing, but it also looks like he could have been kicking himself and inviting Faye to help.
I'm pretty sure that was me (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,27751.msg1072321.html#msg1072321). And looks like Faye was all too happy to play along. But then again, that's Faye for you. Like someone else pointed out, Marten tends to turn on himself in times of stress, and this is a stressful situation. It also doesn't help that he can't really articulate why he blew Padma off - he may not WANT to admit, even to himself, that he was hurt and angry at Padma disappearing on him-so no wonder he couldn't (wouldn't?) explain it to Faye or even to Padma herself. I agree with jwhouk that he most likely didn't call her back because he expected to be cursed out and called nasty names (if she even answered the phone), and I don't think he was up to taking that from Padma. But he was still feeling bad about blowing her off and felt he needed to be "punished" for that, so he went to the person who would most certainly give him a swift kick in the hindquarters if he didn't explain himself (and maybe even if he did)-his dear friend Faye. Who filled her role perfectly.
Not that I think Marten was all calculating and deliberate about this, it was probably almost entirely subconscious. All of which makes Marten sound like someone in serious need of therapy, I know. And maybe he is. But until he is convinced of that need, Faye's the closest thing he's got, heaven help him.
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In the panel she says it, to me, he mostly just looks deflated and fragile. I'm not making any implications about what that means for her tone though, I thought that was his face when he was uttering the words, not for when she interjected.
Sorry, shoulda spent longer writing my original post, I didn't really put across what I was trying to say.
I think panels 4 and 5 show Marten as a bit angry at least, I believe both expressions are related to Faye's response and the tone she was probably using.
I know that personal experiences don't count (fictional characters), but have you ever told someone something only to have them fly off the handle without thinking? it's pretty difficult to deal with in a reasonable manner, and it's the situation as I see it in this strip.
Then yes, Faye shoots him down and he looks a bit gutted in the last panel.
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Just imagine how much more confused the characters would be if they could hear our analyses and advice.
Made me think of Stranger than Fiction.
Why didn't he call her back and say something?
Because he didn't want to hear her say the two words she probably would have said.
Would she have, though? If she felt bad for putting him off, and he called back quick enough, she might not have been mad about it.
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I think so too. But he didn't, and it would have turned into another one of those situations where the longer you leave, the greater the potential pain thus the less likely you are to be able to do it. It pretty much ends up a choice of - immediately or never.
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Meh. I'm still going with the idea that he didn't make nice with Padma when she called ("Wow. I'm so glad you called, I've been wanting to talk to you.") because he's actually growing a spine. Part of him WANTS to be a doormat. And that part of him is the part thats beating him up. But another part of him fully recognizes, when somebody blows you off for a week, thats disrespectful. Associating with people who don't respect you is the sign of a weak person (which he has been).
I, again, fail to see what the fuss is about.
Why would Padma have the right to be mad at him? "How dare you be hurt/angry when I disengage for a week?!"
Marten basically took the route of "No. I'm not going to give you access again." He wasn't particularly mean about it.
Contrast that with Faye, who kicked him while he was down, and rather unjustifiably. At worst he was a bit of a coward, and I (obviously) don't agree with that.
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Would Padma get mad? We haven't seen her do it, but then we haven't seen much provocation either.
Are there any characters who don't need therapy? Raven seems pretty well-adjusted and functional.
Why would Padma have the right to be mad at him? "How dare you be hurt/angry when I disengage for a week?!"
Right or not, it's entirely possible for a woman to say something like that. I've had it happen.
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...because he's actually growing a spine. Part of him WANTS to be a doormat...
What about a happy medium? I get really tired of all this macho talk of "strong: good, weak: bad"; to my mind it's fundamentally a way of avoiding actually thinking about what's going on.
...when somebody blows you off for a week, thats disrespectful. Associating with people who don't respect you is the sign of a weak person...
More macho talk.
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we on the forums always forsee coming events in the comic with perfect clarity. ;)
But in all possible futures...
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...because he's actually growing a spine. Part of him WANTS to be a doormat...
What about a happy medium? I get really tired of all this macho talk of "strong: good, weak: bad"; to my mind it's fundamentally a way of avoiding actually thinking about what's going on.
I decided to look for an article on the distinction between passive vs aggressive vs assertive. Because people who are supporting what Marten's done appear think that's it's great that Marten has done something that's not passive; whereas people who disagree, I think, are trying to point out that Marten needs to be assertive rather than passive-aggressive. So, here is an article I found. Enjoy. I'm sure there are others (possibly better) if you care to search for them, but this one gets the idea across.
http://blakeflannery.hubpages.com/hub/Assertiveness-on-a-Psych-Unit
I will just add - Marten was avoiding confrontation. He did not "grow a spine".
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Pretty much.
The truly assertive (growing a spine) approach would have been to openly (but mind you politely) say he wasn't happy at being cutoff for a week like that.
This serves several purposes.
It helps prevent further evasive behavior by not leaving the other party* any excuse to pretend there isn't an issue that gave offense.
It shows that you are not afraid to express yourself and not someone who will say whatever will appease the other party*.
It's freaking CATHARTIC and helps prevent emotional explosions later on that are far more severe than justified.
Bottling this crap up and being emotionally dishonest causes far more issues in the long run than it saves you from in the short term.
And from Padma's side....she could have done the same, really.
It's almost like both genders have the same level of responsibility for clear communication or something amazing like that. Crazy talk, I know.
*Disclaimer: gender neutral terms used to help prevent fondling of misplaced righteous indignation and other unneeded intellectual masturbation. Yes, I am being a sarcastic ass by putting in these disclaimers. Apparently they are needed.
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I think when it comes down to it... Padma CLEARLY had feelings for Martin, and she didn't act on them. And before anyone might (possibly?) mention them being in bed, I don't really count that so much. Martin (it seems so, anyway) was either down or angry at Padma about blowing him off. In the end, I think Martin was heading in the right direction, with not seeing Padma, but he did it for the wrong reasons. I honestly do not think Padma deserves much in the way of consideration, she obviously knew Martin had tried to call her (What? Three times?), and had never bothered to tell Martin about how she feels. And even if she did want to spend time with him, she should have in the first place. She knew it was going to end, and heck, she even sounded a bit suprised (maybe it's just me?), when Martin told her that he didn't want to see her off.
I could see Martin turning into a very bitter and angry person, if he doesn't get the help he needs. I know everyone else has a therapist, but has anyone bothered to get Martin help? I'm asking a question, because I don't remember much of the comic strip that far back...
In the end, this relationship was destined to blow up in that way. Martin is too passive for his own good to keep a relationship going, and Padma (it seems) has more issues then the national geographic.
But hey, maybe it's just me?
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I don't remember much of the comic strip that far back...
I believe that for sure considering that you wrote Martin almost 10 times instead of his real name, Marten.
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Are there any characters who don't need therapy?
Marigold, Elliot, Raven, Jim, and Angus immediately come to mind. There are actually quite a few characters, mostly secondary players. It just seems that the more issues Jeph centralizes plots around a character, the more neuroses that seem to pop out of the woodwork. Look at Hanners, for instance, who morphed from this (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=515) into a girl who puts on a full-body containment suit when someone around her gets sick...
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First off, sorry about the whole Martin/Marten name thing. Second of all, Marigold has issues, just not in the way that Marten, Faye, Dora, and Hannelore have them.
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...when somebody blows you off for a week, thats disrespectful. Associating with people who don't respect you is the sign of a weak person...
More macho talk.
How about, then, that such a person is showing un-compassionate indifference to his or her own welfare?
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Well, it took a while, but I'm finally caught up (every page I finished spawned a new one for a while...)
There's Something someone pointed out that's been bothering me, and I'd like to latch onto for a moment, because no one else has really mentioned it. Marten told Faye that Padma was "feeling down" (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2095). The quotes are his, so that's probably what she actually said.
Now, Marten's not the type to let that go - I would guess he asked why she was feeling down. He may not have, especially if he was really trying to distance himself, but that would have been a bit out of character, I think.
Now, if he asked, I'm wondering what kind of answer he got. There are a few we can strike off the list;
"I couldn't change my flight, so I can't stay longer"
"My Grandma's taken a turn for the worse, so I can't stay longer"
"I've been packing, and it's got me down." (Marten: "Need some help?")
Anything along these lines would have gotten things moving a lot earlier. But what's more likely is that he just got some more evasion; "I dunno, I'm just feeling down. I wouldn't be any fun."
What bothers me more is the thought that he didn't even ask. I know he's trying very hard (and failing miserably) not to care about her, but damn it, it's common decency to ask what's wrong when someone says they're down. Hell, it's an invitation to ask - you don't tell someone that you're down unless it's bothering you and you want to talk!
And if that's the case, then the ass-holiness started a lot earlier than that last phone call. That was just a capstone.
Thing is, Padma's built a life in NoHo. And had they met a year earlier, Marten would be a firm part of it. She'd have something to come back to after Grandma (assuming Grandma's not too long term a commitment). Now, all she's got to look forward to is some awkwardness.
But he was really in a catch-22 here. Had he been more honest with Padma (and himself), the relationship may never have even started, because she wasn't serious at the beginning, especially with what she said about Elliott. After she turned more serious (assuming that's what happened), he was to the point where he couldn't admit it anymore.
But Padma never said she wanted no-attachments fun. That's what Steve said. and Marten convinced himself Steve was right. All we know for sure is that Padma wanted to go dancing. "Bring your friends" isn't really an invitation to romance, after all. It just happened, and they ran with it.
In opposite directions.
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Are there any characters who don't need therapy?
Marigold, Elliot, Raven, Jim, and Angus immediately come to mind. There are actually quite a few characters, mostly secondary players. It just seems that the more issues Jeph centralizes plots around a character, the more neuroses that seem to pop out of the woodwork. Look at Hanners, for instance, who morphed from this (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=515) into a girl who puts on a full-body containment suit when someone around her gets sick...
I agree with your other choices, but Marigold is almost the last person I'd put on that list. Her need to develop her social skills alone is sufficient cause to see a therapist - that's what I mostly talk to mine about and I have nowhere near the level of issues there that she does!
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I don't think Padma and Marten's relationship (special friendship) was just about sex. I think they had become friends.
He obviously spent time at the bakery...enough that he and Elliott became sorta friends. He ran into her and her friends at a bar in the early days and they hung out (granted she thought he was gay! :lol:)
They went hiking, and they got a bit flirty (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2020).
They were close enough that they talked about Elliott's feelings for her (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2033).
They went dancing...and well we know how that ended up, but she stayed overnight, and they held hands (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2058) while he walked her back to her place the next morning.
Then they spent a day together (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2073)...ok, so they ended up in bed together, but they did spend time together outside of the bedroom...and after that time together they were spooning (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2075) (very intimate) and she decided she'd stay longer.
It's not like with Faye and Sven where she'd go over and he'd immediately start taking off her clothes.
And we don't know how much time had passed between the first time we saw them spooning, and the last time they were in bed together, when I'm convinced she tried to have 'the talk (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2091).' That time could have been preceded (as the others were) by quality, out-side-the-bedroom time. Heck, they may've spent time together many times in between. Just because we've seen them in bed together doesn't mean they don't hang out elsewhere.
I think this was a budding romance...albeit bittersweet because she was moving away.
I also don't know why we have to assume that she wanted to see him that last night just for a booty call. I"m just sayin!'
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But Padma never said she wanted no-attachments fun. That's what Steve said. and Marten convinced himself Steve was right. All we know for sure is that Padma wanted to go dancing. "Bring your friends" isn't really an invitation to romance, after all. It just happened, and they ran with it.
In opposite directions.
Well... not verbatim or anything, but a blatant hint was:
"It's not your fault. I was just hoping I could spend the time I've got left here having fun, not dealing with this kind of drama." -Padma, strip #2033
That on top of how things ended for Elliott probably didn't help the overly casual approach Marten clung to.
And no that wasn't an attempt to sling all the blame on Padma for this. Jeebus Fudge, people. :psyduck:
...when somebody blows you off for a week, thats disrespectful. Associating with people who don't respect you is the sign of a weak person...
More macho talk.
How about, then, that such a person is showing un-compassionate indifference to his or her own welfare?
Or a complete lack of self respect, etc.
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I agree with your other choices, but Marigold is almost the last person I'd put on that list. Her need to develop her social skills alone is sufficient cause to see a therapist
I totally disagree. She's made enough social progress in the last year- going out, having friends, moving past the rivalry with Dale... If you had actually been watching what she's been doing over said year, you would have seen that she's one of the most sane, well rounded characters IN the strip. So much positive change, no need at ALL for anything close to a therapist.
that's what I mostly talk to mine about and I have nowhere near the level of issues there that she does!
You're projecting yourself onto the strip's characters. Marigold is not you.
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No, I think he/she/it (purpleplatypus? Where's Perry?) was doing it right - clearly indicating that their problems are not as intense as Marigoilds, and that they're able to get help with them from their therapist. (sorry for using the fomal plural pronoun, but damn it, I hate gendered English). Making the suggestion that Marigold could get help from therapy's fine from there. If anything, they're making a recommendation based on personal experience!
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Marigirl's self-loathing is still present as far as we know.
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http://blakeflannery.hubpages.com/hub/Assertiveness-on-a-Psych-Unit
I will just add - Marten was avoiding confrontation. He did not "grow a spine".
Thanks, thats actually a very helpful clarification.
My experiences are that there are times when you simply disengage from someone. If they are a pathological or corrosive person, you limit their ability to affect you.
I don't think Padma was a *bad* person, but the vector that this was on, a week of avoidance followed by a phone call of "I'm leaving"... signaled pretty clearly the relationship was over.
All that remained was for Marten to decide how he wanted to respond.
He responded by minimizing the opportunity to get hurt. He didnt lash out in anger or take the opportunity to engage in recriminations.
IF this had been a relationship which had a future, if she were NOT leaving for another coast, then, yes, I would hope that he would have put more effort in.
But given the circumstances, I think he made a pretty good choice.
Again, I remain mystified by the people who feel he was in the wrong. Its nearly impossible to end a romantic relationship without somebody getting hurt. I think that the odds were pretty good that had he talked to her at any length he WOULD have engaged in recriminations and let his anger flow. I guess in an idealized world he could have had a mature discussion with her about how they both felt... but really, to what end? It was over. Time to move on.
In all the possible ways that relationships can end, this one was remarkably uneventful.
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I think that's a pretty fair point of view.
My only reservation is that Marten appears pretty bitter, to the point that it is likely to poison future relationships as well.
I don't think that things would have been made any worse by at least insisting on knowing the real reason she didn't return his calls. It may have even improved matters if he'd managed to get an honest answer, but we can't know because we don't know what that honest answer would have been.
In any case, he's going to need to deal with it somehow.
I'm kind of hoping that we get to find out what really happened at some stage, if not from Padma herself, perhaps from Elliot. But as others have suggested, we may never know. Or maybe it's just as we've suspected (that would be a shock) - that she just wanted to avoid further emotional entanglement. :|
Marigirl's self-loathing is still present as far as we know.
Was that deliberate? I haven't noticed Marigold being called Marigirl before, but I may have missed it.
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No, I think he/she/it (purpleplatypus? Where's Perry?) was doing it right - clearly indicating that their problems are not as intense as Marigoilds,
And who is to say that? Who is to make such an accusation that Marigold has "intense" problems? We all have SOME issues, and from what I've seen the extent of her existent problems are a little too much WOW and some introversion- all of which she has made serious progress with this last year. If Marigold's problems are "intense", then I'd wager at least 70 to 80 percent of humanity has "intense" problems.
This is also based on the assumption that the comic is everything we see about the character's lives. You don't accumulate thirty thousand dollars just sitting around on your computer all day playing World of Warcraft.
We've got some people here who are not only projectionists, but judgmental to boot it seems.
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Now, Marten's not the type to let that go - I would guess he asked why she was feeling down. He may not have, especially if he was really trying to distance himself, but that would have been a bit out of character, I think.
Now, if he asked, I'm wondering what kind of answer he got. There are a few we can strike off the list;
"I couldn't change my flight, so I can't stay longer"
"My Grandma's taken a turn for the worse, so I can't stay longer"
"I've been packing, and it's got me down." (Marten: "Need some help?")
Anything along these lines would have gotten things moving a lot earlier. But what's more likely is that he just got some more evasion; "I dunno, I'm just feeling down. I wouldn't be any fun."
What bothers me more is the thought that he didn't even ask. I know he's trying very hard (and failing miserably) not to care about her, but damn it, it's common decency to ask what's wrong when someone says they're down. Hell, it's an invitation to ask - you don't tell someone that you're down unless it's bothering you and you want to talk!
He didn't ask. You can witness the entirety of the phone call he's discussing with Faye in the previous comic.
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2094
He was trying to remain the aloof, cool individual that he'd been encouraged to be, and not show insecurity by prying. Personally I might not have asked either, as I typically operate under the belief that it's rude to pry, and that if someone wants to talk to me about something, they'll come talk to me about it. Depending on how she phrased it on the other end, she may or may not have been inviting that line of questioning. If she wasn't, I wouldn't ascribe the least bit of fault to Marten for insensitivity.
I also don't know why we have to assume that she wanted to see him that last night just for a booty call. I"m just sayin!'
I don't think she did. I know I've been hard on her, but I suspect she had feelings for him as much as he did for her. I still think that the invitation, after the silence and the moved up travel time, would've been a bitter pill to swallow, even if he didn't assume the worst.
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It's amusing to reflect that this thread was only one page long for the first two days of its life.
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No, I think he/she/it (purpleplatypus? Where's Perry?) was doing it right - clearly indicating that their problems are not as intense as Marigoilds,
If Marigold's problems are "intense", then I'd wager at least 70 to 80 percent of humanity has "intense" problems.
Even allowing for comical exageration, the state of her room and resident vermin pre-Hanners can safely be called an intense problem. One definitely outside "70 to 80 percent of humanity".
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Marigirl's self-loathing is still present as far as we know.
Was that deliberate? I haven't noticed Marigold being called Marigirl before, but I may have missed it.
I agreed with the desire for a nickname but didn't like "Mar-bear". It has not caught on with anyone else.
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I didn't say Marigold's problems were intense; I only pointed out that purpleplatypus felt that their problems were not as intense as Marigold's seem to be. It's a relative scale...
So stop judging me as being judgemental, please. :angel:
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Even allowing for comical exageration, the state of her room and resident vermin pre-Hanners can safely be called an intense problem. One definitely outside "70 to 80 percent of humanity".
I wasn't under the impression that her room had returned to that state.
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Okay, so... now what?
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Posts about the new comic have been moved to the new weekly thread -- they're not deleted.
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(sorry for using the fomal plural pronoun, but damn it, I hate gendered English)
People who refuse to acknowledge the singular they can go :psyduck:* themselves.
*Cockney rhyming slang
(Man, I meant to post this like 8 hours ago but forgot to hit send.)
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I wasn't under the impression that her room had returned to that state.
Oh, there hasn't been any evidence that her room has returned to that. Dust is just trying to find something, anything at all, to disparage my absolute favorite QC character. About the only thing I've seen that even comes close was the egg incident.
And she was right! You SHOULD be able to subdivide!
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Her need to develop her social skills alone is sufficient cause to see a therapist
no need at ALL for anything close to a therapist.
nowhere near the level of issues there that she does!
Dust is just trying to find something, anything at all, to disparage my absolute favorite QC character.
Sorry in advance for the mini-rant....but the stigma attached to mental health issues really irritates me. The idea that by attending therapy, Marigold is somehow a bad person is absolutely ridiculous. THAT is why so many people that suffer from a mental illness don't seek treatment- they are afraid they're going to look "crazy". Neither her messy room nor her level of social skill make her a candidate for therapy. The fact that she may not be fully content with her current outlook/life situation might. She may have a clinical reason for her lack of social skills but I have a feeling that we'd probably know by now if she were to have a disorder in need of treatment. It seems to be thus far that Jeph is portraying her as having fewer interactions, which reflects on her abilities. Obviously, the more you do something the better you get at it- hence all the progress we've seen.
I think regardless of their situation, anyone could arguably benefit from therapy. People don't always NEED therapy as motivation to receive it. Sometimes people actually want to go to therapy because they know that it will improve their life. It's not all "lie-on-couch-tell-me-about-your-childhood" kinda stuff....oftentimes, it's more about self reflection, evaluation and life skills. Could Mari's life improve if she started? Sure, but so would anyone's. Because no one is perfect, it's safe to say that everyone could learn something from a few sessions. Let's not forget that people sometimes seek temporary therapy throughout particularly difficult times. Not everyone needs it, but most people could find something to talk about/some sort of personal issues to resolve.
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Freud defined mental health as the ability to love and to work. Marigirl works for a living, so she's got that down. Romantic love we don't really know about, due to her lack of opportunities. She clearly has sisterly love for Momo.
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Hmm....there are a lot of things Freud said that I don't agree with, but I do like that definition. I like to think of mental health as a spectrum- some of us are in better shape than others and our mental wellness varies just as much as our physical selves.