Jeph Jacques's comics discussion forums

Fun Stuff => CLIKC => Topic started by: Blyss on 11 Mar 2013, 11:26

Title: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Blyss on 11 Mar 2013, 11:26
So, I almost never buy a game on release day, and I certainly never preorder, unless I have a LOT of faith in a title.  I preordered the new Tombraider.  My wife commented on the fact that I never do that, and then proceeded with, "It better be of the charts."  Her words, not mine.  I simply nodded, and agreed, seeing as how I'd just dropped $60 for the game, and another $60 for the controller that allowed for a $10 discount, and a downloadable character on xbox live.

I didn't actually play it until this weekend, because my wife wanted to watch while I played.  She used to do this regularly while I played the old TR games, and I played damn near all of them.

I will do my best not to spoil anything should anyone want to play this game clean.

1 - Less raiding than I expected, and a lot more combat than I remembered.  There's not much to expand on - I'm literally aware of one tomb that I have successfully 'raided' (because the game notified me that I had successfully 'raided the tomb') and that was and optional thing.  Yeah, as in, not forwarding the story.  That bothers me, though not so much that I don't like the game as a whole.

2 - Puzzles that don't seem to make sense, on the scale that I remember. - Does anyone remember the first TR where you had to bring bricks of lead to Midas' hand so they would turn to gold?  I do.  I also remember a Sword of Damocles trap, and various other things that had some basis in various myths and theologies. 
(click to show/hide)

3 - My wife doesn't care for it, but I still like playing - she's not enjoying watching and helping me like she used to because frankly there's not much help you can give when I'm mowing down enemies by the hundreds.  The puzzles are there, but not nearly as many and nothing as complex as they used to be.  That's all.  Nothing else to say about it.

Summary - I don't hate the game, but I'm not in love with it either.  I don't feel like I wasted my $60 ($110 total) so that's a positive.  I knew it wasn't going to be the same TR, but maybe I didn't realize just HOW different it would be.  I'll report more when I've finished it.  Right now I'm about 12 hours in, and the ending doesn't seem too close yet.  I'm still having fun, but it's kind of strange to not be doing so much tomb raiding in a game that is still called Tombraider.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Lupercal on 11 Mar 2013, 14:51
Interesting. This reboot was well needed, I think. I remember distinctly playing Tomb Raider: The Last Revelation on my Dreamcast Christmas 2000. That was the last great Tomb Raider game, in my opinion. I loved Tomb Raider II, missed a few titles (Chronicles notably) and rather disliked Legend - after some decent Prince of Persia games, Tomb Raider kind of fell off the map on the new consoles.

Sounds like without the puzzles this is worth a miss - is the story at all engrossing? I used to think the narratives in the TR games were pretty good. Mythical and edgy!
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Blyss on 11 Mar 2013, 15:06
The story does seem good so far.  I do want to know what happens next, so I guess that's a sign of a good narrative.  I don't want to be misleading, there IS tombraiding, but it almost seems to have been an afterthought.  I think they could do better, and if they do well enough to warrant a sequel, I think we'll be looking at Mass Effect 2 syndrome, in that the 2nd game will be a lot better than the first (my opinion, so take it for what it's worth). 

Please don't think that I'm viewing this game negatively, just that I'm still trying to form an opinion, and it's not overwhelmingly one way or the other yet, and I was expecting it to be all good.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: satsugaikaze on 12 Mar 2013, 01:15
I was really just under the impression that they were trying to prequelize her character and so for that character development to come into the fore they made the combat (the less cerebral aspect of Tomb Raider games) most prominent.

From what I saw of TotalBiscuit playing through it, it sounds like there are a fair few tombs around, just that they're all optional and the first couple of hours are quick-time events and on-rails narrative, which is an interesting design choice.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Method of Madness on 12 Mar 2013, 05:14
I liked it, even if it was kind of an Uncharted clone (making it a clone of a clone of itself, sort of). It was pretty short, made me glad I borrowed instead of bought.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: blanktom on 12 Mar 2013, 07:10
See, I was waiting for a thread to pop up for this game, which I bought on release day, and thoroughly enjoyed!

I won't pour over it too much, but I liked the fact that the tomb raiding was a side aspect of the game. To be fair, even in the early games you didn't exactly spend the entire game raiding tombs...most of the story was just building toward one final push into a tomb.

I really enjoyed the story, I felt like there were twists and turns and at several points I thought I was almost at the end of the story then a new element would be revealed, but I never felt like it dragged. The environments were detailed and clever enough, especially the more open ones, and contained a fair bit of peril
(click to show/hide)
.

I enjoyed the combat far more than any previous game, I liked that they kept the range of weapons small but with enough mods and upgrades to keep them interesting.

Lastly, I really felt like I wanted to get all the collectables, which I very rarely do in games. I think again this is a testament to the environments. I wanted to get the GPS caches because it meant more exploring, which was really fun.

Looks like I enjoyed it far more than most of you guys!
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Blyss on 12 Mar 2013, 11:24
@blanktom, I can't disagree with anything you said.  I've not formed a complete opinion yet, as I'm still playing.  As I understand it, this is exactly what was stated above, and that is a prequel game, wherein we get a lot of Lara's motivation and development.  I do like this game, and I like it well enough that I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt and probably purchase a second title, if in fact they are promising more in the line of tomb raiding, and that seems to be the case.

Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Zingoleb on 12 Mar 2013, 14:44
i keep parsing this thread's title as tom braider
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Jimor on 13 Mar 2013, 03:46
Yeah, I bet Tom was pissed when he went to register his vanity domain.

Edit, heh, it probably happened to at least one person, too: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Tom/Braider
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Masterpiece on 13 Mar 2013, 21:47
Sorry, lets try this again.

I considered the new Tomb Raider a huge achievement.

I always envied the PS3 crowd for, what I felt was a better Tomb Raider, the Uncharted series. The levels were beautifully designed, the story lines compelling and well-written and the gameplay was fun, various and had a surprising amount of depth to it (I consider the second as the best of the Uncharted series).

Tomb Raider gave me all of the above, and so much more.

I really enjoyed the fact that this game really emphasizes exploration in the sense that it encourages you to find all the things (even allowing you to backtrack to previously visited areas). In my opinion, this adds well to the survivor/archaeologist image of Lara. It also adds quite a bit of play time to an already quite long game (of course, incomparable with the TR games of yore).

The combat in Tomb Raider is different, but it's where the franchise needed to go. The first Tomb Raider revolutionized 3rd person gaming... but then failed to improve on that achievement. If you consider other 3rd-person-action games, they all have some sort of free-aim shooting mechanic (Max Payne, Uncharted, etc), it makes sense for Tomb Raider to have the same. And the shooting in Tomb Raider is top-notch. The salvage mechanic means that you grow to really love your weapons, and adding a little bit of stealth means that outsmarting goons is incredibly satisfying. This is not a dumb shooter. In fact the AI scripting felt incredibly atmospheric, especially when enemies react to your actions ("she's hiding behind that pillar, flush her out!" - "damn she's a good shot!" - "where did she get that grenade launcher?"). Seeing the enemy react to the growth of your character is also immensely gratifying.

Story-wise, this game is very different. Gone is Lady Croft, and in her place is a younger, not quite there yet Lara, put in a situation that would push most people beyond their edge. I must say I do not agree with what you said about the Tomb Raiding, most of the older Tomb Raiders were not set in literal tombs to begin with (the only true Tomb Raider in that regard is The Last Revelation) and Lara visits quite a few Tombs in this game (especially if you consider that the entire island is a tomb, what with all the corpses lying around). But the game is not about Tomb Raiding, I'll give you that, it is about Laras literal ascent from the darkness, which also reverbs in some of the gameplay mechanics (such as gradually leveling up and getting stronger). I loved how different the approach to the story was, whereas Uncharted is obviously influenced by flicks like Indiana Jones, Tomb Raider seems to take its inspiration from the survival horror genre (indeed, Tomb Raider especially appears to be channelling the Descent, many scenes in the game make explicit references to the series). I loved watching Lara get more and more confident about herself and her strengths.
(click to show/hide)
All in all the story feels a lot more cohesive than any Tomb Raider that came before and also than the Uncharted games, as it feels so much more grounded.
 
Like I said, I was waiting a long time for a Tomb Raider that would match Uncharted 2. What I got in return was a much more personal experience that rocked Uncharted clear out the water. I loved playing this game so much, that it is the first game in which I collected 100 % of all the artifacts, challenges, maps, documents, etc... And I did all that twice! My only regret is not playing this game in hard difficulty first, not because it was particularly easy, but because I know my experience of the literal ascension would have been an even greater one. I love this game and will most definitely return.

edit: why the rants about missing puzzles? There are quite a few in this game (you obviously haven't been in the tombs) and imho they make a lot more sense than the old tr puzzles.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Blyss on 14 Mar 2013, 11:26
Hmm.  How best to sum up?

I don't want to in any way discount your opinion on the game. (@masterpiece)  I simply was not as overwhelmed with greatness as you were I guess.  I like the game, and I think they paved the way for a better game (to be read: more to my liking) in a second installment, and I believe that was the point of this game, now that I have finally finished it.

I've never played any of the Uncharted games, and therefore have no basis for comparison.  That said, I don't compare TR to those games at all, only to the older games, and I played almost all of them.  In the interest of complete accuracy, no you were not always in a tomb in the old games, and I don't think I ever said that was the case, but perhaps I insinuated.  However, you were doing more tomb raideresque activities, and that was HOW YOU FORWARDED the story.  I can't emphasize that enough. 

There was combat in the old games as well.  I'm not knocking the game for having combat.  But as you mentioned, the island is a tomb because of all the dead bodies...  including the hundreds that I added to the pile.  That's a lot of people dead, and could just as easily have been some other danger than people with guns.  Again, they chose that route, and I played it, and I don't hate the combat itself.  I just wish there'd been more of a focus on 'LARA HAS TO SURVIVE' and it not having to do with hundreds of guys with guns - maybe mix it up and have crazy animals that are part of the island's indigenous population - I don't know.  But yeah, mowing down bad guys with my bow or my machine gun or my pistol, is something I'd expect in a Rambo game, not Tombraider.

NOW - because I don't completely disagree with you, there were some things that they did so RIGHT that I actually got a shiver down my spine because, FUCK YEAH! that was awesome!  The example that you gave under the spoiler cover is an excellent one.  THAT WAS PERFECT! 

Having finished the game now, I do have a different opinion than I did when I started, because they did lighten up on the combat at one point, and it did become more about exploration again, and that was what I was looking for, so this is more of a whole picture kind of game, and I have no problem with that at all.  At the end, I was glad I'd bought the game, I'm not disappointed, and I look forward to the next one.

To be fair, though, I think I was expecting this one to be what they claim is coming in the next installment.  That's all.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: ackblom12 on 14 Mar 2013, 13:59
This is on my list of games to play, and I am quite excited to play it, but from what I gather it suffers heavily from the common video game issue of "character is written one way, you play the character another". This is a problem that many games I love have, and I'm kind of eager for the industry to figure out how to avoid this. Sometimes this just involves hiring proper writers, but as a medium I think it's gonna be kind of tough to get over.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Valdís on 14 Mar 2013, 14:19
This is on my list of games to play, and I am quite excited to play it, but from what I gather it suffers heavily from the common video game issue of "character is written one way, you play the character another". This is a problem that many games I love have, and I'm kind of eager for the industry to figure out how to avoid this.

This statement reminds me of MrBtongue:

Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: ackblom12 on 14 Mar 2013, 14:48
Yeah, that's a good video for the subject. Another big example would be GTA IV I think. Niko is written as a man looking for redemption, tired of the senseless violence of his lifestyle and his place within it, he regularly talks about how he is full of grief for the lives lost and how he will never do it again... and then you're forced to kill several dozen people, both innocents and enemies, so that you can finish the story mission.

Edit: And that, combined with some gameplay things I didn't like afterwards, is why Vice City will always be the best GTA.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Masterpiece on 14 Mar 2013, 15:23
Yeah, that's a good video for the subject. Another big example would be GTA IV I think. Niko is written as a man looking for redemption, tired of the senseless violence of his lifestyle and his place within it, he regularly talks about how he is full of grief for the lives lost and how he will never do it again... and then you're forced to kill several dozen people, both innocents and enemies, so that you can finish the story mission.
Yet the story ends with Niko obviously failing to achieve his goal of escaping his violent past and considering if he is in fact still sane. I don't really think your example is justified, but I definitely see your point.

About the exploring thing that @blyss mentioned: I don't think it's possible to re-create the exploring aspect present in old Tomb Raiders in newer games because that exploring aspect was very much linked to the fact that Lara Croft simply did not control very well. An example I can think of is this: How did you cross a gap? Walk towards the edge, do one skip backwards, run towards the gap, jump, and grab the opposite ledge. Seeing as this whole process is extremely streamlined to the point of being an afterthought (nowadays you just jump in a general direction, and maybe press the pickaxe button), the whole navigation and exploration has a whole different aspect in this game.

It essentially comes down to level design, and what you want to achieve with it. I can distinguish two "types" of basic level pattern in this game, and a few more that combine those elements. But the two basic ones are the arena type level, where you're basically in a room fighting enemies, and there's the traversal type level, where you're trying to get from A to B. I consider the puzzle areas as arenas where your enemy is the environment. The areas where everything behind you breaks down and blows up is a traversal level with action. Examples for these kind of levels are in the spoiler.
(click to show/hide)
In the old Tomb Raiders, this pattern exists as well - however combat and traversal did not have to be so differentiated because the combat mechanics were so much simpler back then (example: TR2s Tibetian Monastery is a huge arena and traversal level, because of the sheer scale of the level and the amount of enemies that appear everywhere). In todays 3rd person shooters, cover is an important part of the combat, there is no auto-aim and enemies are much more sophisticated. Levels have to be designed with combat in mind. The Tomb Raider Legend series (including Anniversary and Underworld) did not do a good job in improving combat, and in my opinion, the auto aim is to blame. I think the new Tomb Raider has to be applauded to the fact that they managed to create sophisticated combat areas that still include a lot of elements for traversal and exploration. The best example for these are the hubs. Sure there's very linear affairs in TR and levels that focus solely on combat. But the hubs are a huge step towards bringing these two play-styles together. And the game does emphasize traversal and exploration, even after combat: You're motivated to search bodies of fallen enemies for salvage and the areas for hidden relics/documents for xp, because if you don't, chances are you're gonna have a hard time in the later parts of the game.

My focus is drifting, so I'll get to the point I'm trying to make: The island of TR is in my humble opinion an environment that invites exploration. There's so many stuff packed everywhere, and it does take quite a while to get all of it. I'm not saying that exploration is the only vital part in the game, combat sure is a huge part of it, but I think these two are meshed together quite beautifully.

And also, do yourself a favour and watch some Uncharted walkthroughs. They are an example of being a completely linear affair.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Masterpiece on 14 Mar 2013, 15:25
Maybe I'm beating a dead horse, point I'm trying to make is that I'm incredibly happy with how this game turned up to be, especially considering that Underworld was such a let down and I had not expected anything at all from this game. But Tomb Raider is just wonderful.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Method of Madness on 14 Mar 2013, 15:47
Edit: And that, combined with some gameplay things I didn't like afterwards, is why Vice City will always be the best GTA.
While I don't agree that VC is the best GTA, I do agree that it's the most honest (he's just as violent as any of the other protagonists, but neither Tommy Vercetti nor the game ever pretend that he isn't a horrible person doing horrible things for selfish reasons).
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Blyss on 14 Mar 2013, 17:02
It feels like maybe what I'm saying is being taken as argumentative.  I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong here.

I think Tombraider is a good game.  I guess the difference is, I was expecting it to be a great game, and while some think so, I'm not necessarily one of them.

Maybe that will clarify things.

Oh, and while I haven't played Uncharted, I am certainly aware of it, and its linear nature.  Again, I don't compare the two.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Welu on 14 Mar 2013, 17:05
This is on my list of games to play, and I am quite excited to play it, but from what I gather it suffers heavily from the common video game issue of "character is written one way, you play the character another". This is a problem that many games I love have, and I'm kind of eager for the industry to figure out how to avoid this. Sometimes this just involves hiring proper writers, but as a medium I think it's gonna be kind of tough to get over.

This is what has put me off the game. I did not like the whole thing a while back about how the player will want to "protect" Lara. There was more to it but I've talked about it a lot before. I know doing that is getting stuck on one thing without knowing much else of the game but sometimes something annoys me so much I admit, I can't see past it. Although I also get the impression it's more blocking my view than I refuse to look past it since I want to try and enjoy the game but it's a big pink elephant that keeps jumping in front of my other thoughts.
Damn principles.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Method of Madness on 14 Mar 2013, 17:46
This is what has put me off the game. I did not like the whole thing a while back about how the player will want to "protect" Lara.
Wait, what? When was this? :psyduck:
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: de_la_Nae on 14 Mar 2013, 23:55
I am interested in this conversation, but I have to know: Is it actually Tombraider this time? I thought it was always Tomb Raider. Did I misunderstand?
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Method of Madness on 15 Mar 2013, 04:07
It's definitely still two words.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Welu on 15 Mar 2013, 05:15
Here's a couple articles summing up some feelings but they all roughly say the same stuff in slightly different ways.

http://kotaku.com/5917400/youll-want-to-protect-the-new-less-curvy-lara-croft

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-06-13-lara-croft-attempted-rape-will-make-tomb-raider-players-want-to-protect-her

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-06-13-tomb-raider-studio-addresses-lara-controversy
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Method of Madness on 15 Mar 2013, 05:42
It looks like that was an executive being stupid more than any indication about the game itself.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Welu on 15 Mar 2013, 05:44
There's still the scene in the game itself which definitely has an attempted rape thing going on. I'm also not a fan of the art director's comments.

"Her skin is still bare on the arms and there are going to be rips and tears on her clothes, but it won't be about being revealing. It's a way of saying that through these tough situations, there is a beauty and vulnerability coming through. I think that is sexy in its own way."
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: ackblom12 on 15 Mar 2013, 08:37
To be quite frank, developers are unintentionally creepy a hell of a lot and the less they talk about certain topics in their own games, the better. It's a perfectly valid reason to avoid a game.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: maxusy3k on 15 Mar 2013, 11:50
I've seen a LOT of commentary that basically says all the press around that scene and those comments was completely overblown once the scene is viewed in context with the rest of the game.

Here's (http://www.themarysue.com/tomb-raider-review/) a review which addresses it specifically but as a warning I can't remember now if it contains spoilers or no.

Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Masterpiece on 15 Mar 2013, 13:09
I guess what all those publications are trying to say to some extent is that the player will feel a lot more connected to the character of the new Lara Croft than the one we were presented before. Gone is the over the top super athlete Lady Croft and in her place is quite a fragile character that IMHO the player can associate with.
And I take offense to that whole "you'll want to protect her" bullcrap too, with the camera angles and stuff and the increased sense of intimacy between camera and character, I felt like I was part of the crew, trying to get out of there.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: de_la_Nae on 15 Mar 2013, 13:33
To be quite frank, developers are unintentionally creepy a hell of a lot and the less they talk about certain topics in their own games, the better. It's a perfectly valid reason to avoid a game.
^
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Method of Madness on 15 Mar 2013, 17:31
I agree with the first sentence but not the second.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: ackblom12 on 15 Mar 2013, 17:46
Pray tell, what is a valid reason for someone to avoid any media of their choosing?

Personally, I would definitely say that a companies marketing and PR concerning their product making you uncomfortable (or irritated) is a perfectly valid reason.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Method of Madness on 15 Mar 2013, 18:52
I would think that a valid reason is the medium itself. That is, if you've heard from people/sources you trust that the game itself is objectionable, then sure. But I don't think the company saying something would be enough on its own to make me avoid it (although it may make me hesitate to support it financially).
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Welu on 16 Mar 2013, 05:50
It is not simply what the company has said, although it certainly puts me off. The content of the game's story and how they seem to be portraying the character. I also believe I get to decide what is objectionable and valid to me.

I will just straight say the rape/assault as a plot device really cheapens Lara Croft for me. I don't like the plot device in general and have other issues with it but specific to this game, I can understand wanting to humanise her, wanting to show a younger, less developed side. Although I really preferred it when I thought, "This is an awesome person doing something just because they can and it's fun and awesome." I can aspire to that and really escape into it because I want to be that. Not the same when she's a cornered animal who has no choice but to fight back. Now that I've typed it out, it actually sounds like a really boring, generic origin.
I admit I haven't learned more about the story though or how much she is portrayed as already knowing or capable of doing.
I also don't buy and play a game to go along with the hero. Whether it's in the form of "protecting" them or being their "helper", I want to feel like I am the hero. Like I said, playing games is a form of escapism and that I find it easier to escape into her former portrayed role.

Compare to Jill Valentine in Resident Evil. It's a similar trapped who has to fight back story on paper. First though she's a police officer and member of a special operatives force with a skill set. The role you're playing is that of a skilled person who already has the capabilities to fight against the opposing force.
Note: I haven't played any Resident Evil after 4.  :-P

I'll bow out of this thread now. I'll happily discuss this more in a dedicated thread about whatever the hell is it I'm talking about. However I don't want to further derail the people who want to discuss the game itself.  :-)
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Masterpiece on 16 Mar 2013, 06:21
I've got a feeling that I should bow out as well, because I keep repeating myself and I'm obviously not being objective, because I want to reply Y U no liek this gaem?! to each and every one of your answers, which isn't fair to anyone.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Method of Madness on 16 Mar 2013, 09:00
Welu, when I said I didn't find it valid, I meant valid for me, I would never speak for someone else. So if you find it a valid reason to ignore a game, then that's fine. As for the "vulnerable" part, I didn't think they went over the top with it. She starts off an incredibly brilliant and enthusiastic archaeologist who gets in over her head when they all run into some truly terrible people on the island. They're all in over their head. I didn't see her being scared at first as me wanting to protect her, I saw it as me being drawn into the world and trying to overcome it. To accept the fact that it's kill or be killed and do something about it. Then again, the game does have
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Cire27 on 17 Mar 2013, 08:48
(click to show/hide)

This bugged me about Far Cry 3 too.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Method of Madness on 17 Mar 2013, 08:51
Right! I enjoyed both enough to beat, but they were both absurd how fast they went from "holy shit I've killed someone" to everyone on the island talking about how deadly they were, getting teams of mercs to go after them (which of course is still not enough, as the protagonist easily kills all of them).
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: de_la_Nae on 18 Mar 2013, 09:49
I like to think of it as the Nicholas Cage effect a la The Rock.

Clarification edit: not that he ever gets *really* good at it like these examples.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Method of Madness on 18 Mar 2013, 09:57
I still need to see that.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: LTK on 19 Mar 2013, 02:29
Here's a report on some concept pieces for this game. (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/03/18/cara-loft-tomb-raider-concept-raiding/)
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: GarandMarine on 19 Mar 2013, 12:58
Well seems the over all impression is favorable... and my vision's coming in fairly well now...  I think I might walk to the nearest Redbox and see if I can rent it for a look see.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: ackblom12 on 19 Mar 2013, 13:02
Oh yeah, renting. I kind of forgot about the existence of such things. I should check to see if there's a local redbox.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Blyss on 20 Mar 2013, 11:15
It's definitely worth a rental.  I'm certainly not upset that I paid for it, and have it to play again. 

But yeah - give it a look see even if only for a night.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: de_la_Nae on 20 Mar 2013, 12:23
As much as I get on GameStop's case (because after having friends work for and hearing about all sorts of 'fun' little policies), I am glad that there are good after-prime-market solutions. Redbox filled a nice little niche that appeared when rental places all over started dying. Indiana has a chain called Family Video that seems to be going strong that I do some business with, and there's a GameStop competitor company that sells and rents as well. Makes contemplating purchases a whole lot easier. I sort of despise most games that cost more than about $15 without getting to give them a demo run first.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Gregorio on 20 Mar 2013, 19:42
As much as I get on GameStop's case (because after having friends work for and hearing about all sorts of 'fun' little policies), I am glad that there are good after-prime-market solutions. Redbox filled a nice little niche that appeared when rental places all over started dying. Indiana has a chain called Family Video that seems to be going strong that I do some business with, and there's a GameStop competitor company that sells and rents as well. Makes contemplating purchases a whole lot easier. I sort of despise most games that cost more than about $15 without getting to give them a demo run first.
Yeah, it's typically renting and LPs that convince me to buy full versions of games. Here in State College, PA, we have a little store called Gamer's Arena run by a friendly, knowledgeable staff, and they have dollar-a-day rentals and reasonable prices.

Tomb Raider, when it's not crashing for me (downloading NVidia's patch for it now), is a lot of "fun." It's always tense, and characters seem well-written and motivated.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: LTK on 25 Mar 2013, 02:31
This article (http://hellmode.com/2013/03/21/this-isnt-the-article-i-wanted-to-write-about-tomb-raider/) on Tomb Raider is really touching. The author does a really good job of relativising the violence against Lara with the story about survival.

I really want to play this game now.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Method of Madness on 25 Mar 2013, 20:17
Damn. I played it on easy, so that's probably why I never saw that scene (but I did go to Youtube and found it and...damn). One of the best video game related...no, one of the best articles I've ever read.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Masterpiece on 26 Mar 2013, 17:28
I regretted playing it on normal and not on hard mode. I would have had such a better time playing it on hard from the start.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Masterpiece on 31 Mar 2013, 09:51
That being said, I'm now halfway through my third hard playthrough, and I'm planning to 100 % that one, just like I did my previous three walkthroughs.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: satsugaikaze on 01 Apr 2013, 08:25
Woop woop finished my first playthrough, 22 hours with 76% completion. I'm slow, sue me.

I really, really like almost everything about this game, from the fluidity of the animation to the character development. I don't think it would have been nearly half the game it was if it wasn't for how smooth and intuitive the platforming was. The quick-time events bugged me at a lot of places but they were minor and never really disrupted the flow for me (although I could imagine it doing so for other players less clued-in on the QTE-heavy sequences of the game). Lara's contextual death scenes are also quite unsettling for me, which is wierd because I normally brush off death scenes in horror media all the time.

They dramatically up the ante on the supernatural angle towards the end of the game which is a tiny bit jarring but for me not a deal-breaker, but it's a nice thematic shout-out to the supernatural elements from the previous games. Otherwise it's a very well-grounded action game and for me a shining example of what reboots should be like. Definitely a personal GOTY contender.

I will just say one thing though; holy hell Lara wear something with sleeves. Her body looks absolutely mangled by the end of the game. The only other character I've ever seen that many scars on was Vash the Stampede.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Parkour Lewis on 12 Apr 2013, 21:55
First, to contribute to the topic, I was around for the first Tomb Raider, and have followed the series ever since, the only ones I never finished being AoD and Chronicles.  I supppose that I'm in the minority on liking Legend and Underworld, but I'm probably more forgiving on certain things, and I loved the way they connected Excalibur to Mjolnir in the story of those games.  I just thought that was neat as hell.  I also loved this one, especially considering the fact that it was new mythology that I'd never heard of, meaning I actually learned something (after some googling), which was neat point five.  I liked the gameplay, the story was great, and I'm very glad I bought it so I'll have it to play through again someday while I'm waiting for a gamefly rental to ship.

That said:

Yeah, that's a good video for the subject. Another big example would be GTA IV I think. Niko is written as a man looking for redemption, tired of the senseless violence of his lifestyle and his place within it, he regularly talks about how he is full of grief for the lives lost and how he will never do it again... and then you're forced to kill several dozen people, both innocents and enemies, so that you can finish the story mission.

Edit: And that, combined with some gameplay things I didn't like afterwards, is why Vice City will always be the best GTA.

Well that's the problem right there.  GTA IV wasn't about redemption.  The game's creator borrowed heavily from the themes of a movie called Koyaanisqatsi (Hopi Native American for "life out of balance"), and even used the film's theme music for the first commercials for GTA IV.  Koyaanisqatsi is about how humanity's development and industry, among other things, place it out of balance with nature, and even itself to a degree.  Niko wasn't looking for redemption, he'd long since realized that this was something he could never have, because his entire life had been to become a tool of death and destruction for others.  Old Men took young boys to go fight their war for them, a war that the boys did not even understand.  After the war he left to join the merchant marines (at least I think it was?), because fighting was the only trade he'd ever known, and still wound up fighting other peoples' wars, and even after going to America, led by the tales of wealth and opportunity (which he most likely even then knew were bullshit), he still gets swept up fighting other peoples' battles because it's the only thing he knows how to do and he's good at it.  Not because he wants to be, but because other people want him to be.  Niko's life is out of balance because the world he was born into is out of balance and he's merely a product of that world.  He never stood a chance.  No matter how much he may wish he could live a normal, quiet life, he knows that he never can, because his fate was already decided for him on the day he was born.  So he seeks out the man that betrayed him and his friends to find answers that he knows he'll never get, because he's asking questions that he already knows the answers to.  The world is as it is.  That's what the game is about.  At least in my opinion.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: ackblom12 on 24 May 2013, 10:47
Greenman Gaming has this on sale for $13.60 with the voucher GMG20-LLASD-D8WBQ.

http://www.greenmangaming.com/s/us/en/pc/games/action/tomb-raider/
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: ackblom12 on 28 May 2013, 15:48
So I'm really enjoying the game, but it definitely feels a bit like misery porn at times. I'm also unsure of why they bothered to include any weapon but the bow.

It's mildly irritating how often you find a camp with no fast travel capability and I haven't finished the game yet, but thus far I'd probably rate it an 8 or 8.5.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: snalin on 28 May 2013, 17:25
Anyone that has any thoughts on how this game could never have been made the way it has been made if Square Enix had budgeted like sensible people? This game, Hitman Absolution and Sleeping dogs are all smash hits, each selling millions in their first months. Squenix expected (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-04-09-square-enix-thought-tomb-raider-could-sell-nearly-double-its-3-4-million-first-month-sales) half again or double the number of actual sales for each game, and are expecting massive losses

How do you sell about 6 million copies of three titles and lose money? Did they seriously think that Tomb Raider was a strong enough franchise on it's own to sell 5-6 million copies in a month? To put that in perspective, Black Ops 2, the latest game in a series that's arguably the most popular franchise today, sold 7,5 million copies in it's first month. They expected to be close to that.

Now, the franchise has sold a lot of games earlier - the first three games all sold 5 or more million copies (8 million at the highest), but those were [ilifetime[/i] sales. The last two only made 1,5 lifetime sales. The expectations for the sales of this game was blown so out of proportion with reality, and if they've budgeted with an expectation of that kind of sales, that's bad business based on crazy optimism.

At one point these studios has to understand that while there's a big market for games that take 300 people years to make, that market isn't endless, and when those projects fail, they fail spectacularly. For the same amount of money, you could make 6 games that takes 50 people to make (oversimplification here), and those games only needs one sixth of the total sales that big game required. Have those six teams spread their game releases out so they're not competing, and you've got a much better and safer business model.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Masterpiece on 28 May 2013, 17:35
I fail to see how Tomb Raider failed spectacularly. It was the single best gaming experience I had this year.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: ackblom12 on 28 May 2013, 17:36
It failed financially by a rather large margin.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Masterpiece on 28 May 2013, 17:37
Let me tell you why it failed: They decided that they had to include multiplayer.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Method of Madness on 28 May 2013, 18:04
It had multiplayer? I didn't even notice.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Parkour Lewis on 28 May 2013, 18:06
Yeah, that multiplayer was kind of crappy and tacked-on.  I played it for all of two hours before giving up on it.  Loved the single player though, it's one of the few games that I turned around and played through it again right after finishing it.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: ackblom12 on 28 May 2013, 18:08
Sure, the multiplayer likely played a large part in it. I know Multi is rather expensive to develop, though I'm not sure what percentage of the costs it was in this case. The main problem really is though that Squeenix has no idea how to make a budget. They never have.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: snalin on 29 May 2013, 03:30
It's not only them, though. There will probably be no more Dead Space games because the owners (EA) think a game series like that needs around 5 million players to be worthwhile investing in. It seems like there's no willingness to work with lower budgets whatsoever.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Parkour Lewis on 29 May 2013, 08:27
And that's the problem with the modern business world.  They don't see it as "We spent 10 million on this game and made 30 million so we got ourselves a good little bit of money there.", they see it as "We spent 10 mil and made 30, but THESE guys spent 50 mil and made 200, so we just lost 190 million dollars."
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: LTK on 29 May 2013, 09:52
It failed financially by a rather large margin.
It made a profit but failed to meet the publisher's expectations. Guess where the problem is.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: snalin on 29 May 2013, 11:00
Did it profit? I can find an official statement that says that development costs were covered, so they broke even, but that's about it.

Of course, the long term sales could be huge - while I've not done much proper research, the examples I can remember have the game's lifetime sales at about double what the sales during the initial launch were. While the income isn't that large later on - many of those are on lowered prices - there's still a good chance the game will see a neat profit over time. The investors doesn't seem to care much about the long term profitability of games, though - almost all the talking points are sales around launch.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: ackblom12 on 29 May 2013, 12:56
Yeah, last I checked they're reporting a massive financial loss and it's because these games didn't make much, if any, profit.
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: LTK on 29 May 2013, 13:06
This article (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/123943-Square-Enix-Financials-Net-Sales-Up-13-7-Billion-Lost) reports that sales have been increasing in spite of their losses, and this one (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/123391-NPDs-March-Numbers-Show-Bioshock-And-Tomb-Raider-at-The-Top) indicates that Tomb Raider was topping the charts, so that led me to infer that the game itself has been selling very well, but Square must be spending even more than that at the same time, which they do seem to acknowledge (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/124370-Square-Enix-Vs-Homogeneity).
Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Masterpiece on 15 Jun 2015, 13:36
Taking this thread out of the crypt, just to say... this thing looks BEAUTIFUL.

Title: Re: Tombraider Rebooted
Post by: Blyss on 24 Jun 2015, 08:25
Yeah, the new game looks amazing.  I think they've done good work with it, and I'll likely buy it.  The only problem I have is Microsoft still trying to tout it as exclusive, when it's actually just a timed exclusive.  I'll definitely be getting it for PS4, and not Xbone.