Jeph Jacques's comics discussion forums

Fun Stuff => MAKE => Topic started by: pwhodges on 05 May 2013, 02:15

Title: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: pwhodges on 05 May 2013, 02:15
It can be seen in the gun control discussion in Discuss that we have a couple of enthusiastic gunsmiths on this forum.  It seems to me that the discussions they have on the subject of gunsmithing itself do not really belong in that thread, and so it is suggested that they should continue that discussion of their interest in this forum, for which purpose I have created this thread.  Anyone who feels uncomfortable with details of guns is free to avoid reading this thread, of course.  The established forum rules about picturing guns remain in place outside this thread: pictures that show guns simply for their own sake are not allowed; but in this thread pictures can be included that help to explain a point being made or demonstrate the result of a technique being discussed.  The politics of guns must remain in Discuss, though factual statement or clarification of regulations affecting gunsmithing may be appropriate here.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 05 May 2013, 03:02
So I had to think about my first post in here, I'd like to thank the mod staff for letting us do this.

Suppressors (or silencers as they're commonly called) seem to be a confusing subject for a lot of people, thanks to Hollywood the average individual, even those who have had some experience with firearms have a lot of misconceptions about these simply safety devices. So I think I'm going to open up with a little mythbusting. The following video is an excellent mechanical explanation of what's going on with the firearm when you're using a suppressor.
So the mechanical properties are pretty simple, but the restrictions on these tools are a little ridiculous. Assuming your weapon is threaded to allow for a silencer there's an $200 dollar additional tax to be payed, as well as filling out the ATF paperwork required to purchase one. Despite the name in Hollywood a silencer doesn't really silence the weapon, even in small caliber .22s with sub sonic ammunition there's still noise. Some specialty built weapons like the De Lisle carbine from WW2 all but eliminated sound, but were purpose built to this regard, utilizing integral suppressors. There's a decent benefit to shooters who are interested in the system, hunting in particular can allow for a second follow up shot, as game usually has trouble locating the source of sound for a well suppressed shot, giving a hunter a second chance on a miss, it also allows for the hunter to risk shooting without ear plugs, opening up more of your senses and saving you motions to go "ears on" if you've been listening. The recoil reduction can also be desirable for some shooters, but the primary benefit lies in being able to shoot all you want without super sonic cracks going off in your ear all the time. I've been shooting my entire life and I haven't protected my ears the way I should have, it does make an impact.

Now some more general knowledge websites:
Guns In America (short over view of every state's firearms laws): http://www.homesecurity.org/blog/guns-in-america-how-to-buy-sell-shoot-in-every-state/
Opencarry.org: http://www.opencarry.org/?page_id=101 Slightly more detailed maps breaking down laws by state, the rest of the website has a ton of law information and other useful materials.
Doc GKR: http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91 Doc GKR is a Dentist, expert ballistician and active shooter, the threads herein concern duty rounds, carry, self defense and most importantly terminal ballistics, which is to say what the bullet does when you hit what you're aiming at. Now this information's fairly important to a shooter, and a defensive shooter in particular and this information's a gold mine (I picked the loads and rounds I wanted to test for my own CCW based on Doc's recommendations and eventually settled on Winchester Ranger JHPs) but... they can be kinda squicky. So if you have a weak stomach or aren't a fan of this whole gun thing in general, do yourself a favor and skip this link.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 05 Jul 2013, 21:35
So I recently built an AR-15 from a parts kit. Why would you do that? It's fulfilling to put them together because it is absolutely yours. You need a couple basic tools and a castle nut wrench depending on how "from parts" you're going. You can technically purchase every portion of an AR-15 "a la carte" so to speak. In my case I purchased a complete upper receiver (barrel, gas system, etc are all pre installed, etc) and a stripped "lower receiver" the former you can have mailed to you, while the latter is actually what the ATF considered "the firearm" and requires you to go through an FFL. As stripped might imply you'll then need a lower parts kit, buffer tube (and attendant parts) and a stock to to make a complete lower receiver.

AR-15s are jokingly referred to by enthusiasts in the United States as "Barbie Dolls for men" because of the mind blowing number of options for pretty much every single part of the "base" rifle and the unlimited number of accessories you can add.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/740341_10151781944035815_1163056242_o.jpg)
So in this picture we get a pretty decent look at the parts kit. At the top is the upper, with the charging handle and bolt carrier group laying next to it. Immediately below it is the stripped lower receiver, and to the left of that is my new flash hider, to replace the "standard" style flash hider/compensator presently on the rifle. To the left of that are the parts that make up the buffer, buffer tube stock and the pistol grip. To the right of the pistol grip is the dissembled trigger mechanism the various small parts bags and finally on the far right, the rear sights. If you want to see the full process on how a lower gets put together just give it a quick search on youtube, there's some great instructional videos on there. Otherwise here's my completed AR-15.


(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/1040194_10151781944175815_199672532_o.jpg)
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/1048603_10151781944285815_1359290318_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 06 Jul 2013, 05:38
How long did it take to assemble?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 06 Jul 2013, 08:19
Roughly 30-45 minutes? I've spent longer on more complex lego kits.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Skewbrow on 06 Jul 2013, 22:58
Do report on the results of your first tests on a shooting track!
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 06 Jul 2013, 23:00
I'm just curious, is it cheaper to buy the parts than it is to buy a fully assembled rifle?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 06 Jul 2013, 23:12
It can be if you shop around.  I sunk about $1,100 into my M4; one of comparable features and quality would probably be $1,300 from a manufacturer.  Really, a lot of the so-called "manufacturers" are nothing more than wholesale assemblers.  A big part of it though, like GM said, is that there's some personal satisfaction in assembling your own gun from the component level just the way you want it.  And no joke on the LEGO thing, either.

----------------------------

FWIW:  I was opposed to the creation of this thread from the beginning - the QC Forum is, in my view, Not The Place for this kind of thing - mostly on the basis that it looked like Garand and I would be the only people interested in participating.  Not to look Hodges' gift hoarse in the mouth, it was a nice gesture, but it feels like... tokenism.  Tokenism and showing off (on our part.)  If other people do actually decide to show up and participate though, then maybe I give it a fair chance.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 06 Jul 2013, 23:18
mostly on the basis that it looked like Garand and I would be the only people interested in participating.
It appears Skewbrow and I have already proven this wrong, which I would hope is a good thing. (We're participating as outsiders learning, but isn't that the point? For people with experience to teach people without about the subject?)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 07 Jul 2013, 00:06
Works for me.  I'm just saying I really didn't expect it to happen.

ETA: Example of how much work is involved - about the first minute shows the barrel being assembled into the upper-half, a lot of builders (Garand and myself* included) skip that part by buying their uppers already fully assembled.  A lot of that part has been cut from the time lapse due to being off-screen, and his particular choice of parts makes it a bit faster than building a standard, pinned-block upper.

*That is, I did for my last build, but that's not really going to be an option when I eventually do my semiauto Colt 604 replica.

Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 07 Jul 2013, 01:14
Do report on the results of your first tests on a shooting track!

Going out tuesday to make sure everything's functioning properly so I'll make sure to report.

I'm just curious, is it cheaper to buy the parts than it is to buy a fully assembled rifle?

Like CSM said, absolutely yes... in most cases. Depends on what you want really. A "sporter" quality AR-15 can be had for about $700-800, (especially now that the black rifle price bubble has burst and things are mostly back to normal) and while that will get you a functioning rifle that will be good for target practice and hunting, it's also as entry level as you can get. Not that they aren't good rifles... but there's quality in everything, and especially in mechanical things of all sorts, quality differences between parts can be extremely difficult to explain clearly to the un-initiated. There's also some elitism BS in there with AR-15 parts in particular, especially when it comes to scopes. Asking about quality scopes or red dots that don't cost half a month's pay (if not more) on places like AR15.com will absolutely get you flamed harder then suggesting that Diane Feinstein* is a nice lady.

All told I spent about $950 (with transfer fees) on just the rifle, I would guess that I'd probably pay around $1500 if I bought it as a complete rifle from Palmetto State Armory (the company I purchased my upper receiver from) based on their prices for similar rifles.

One of the major benefits of the AR-15 system is again back to LEGOs and Barbie Dolls for Men(and women/non-gender specific individuals who wanna play too) is JUST getting the lower receiver. With my single AR-15 lower I can run a ridiculous number of rifles in all sorts of calibers with just that lower and in some cases the same bolt carrier group.** This can be pretty cost effective for a lot of shooters as it saves you a not insignificant amount of money on rifles and parts as a barreled upper receiver can be had cheap in many cases, (compared to a full weapon) so it's a matter of more bang for your buck. Personal example, after I make a few upgrades to my current set up (for CSM: H2 Buffer, BAD lever, etc) I'll be purchasing a second AR upper receiver chambered in the  .300 Blackout round, which is a .30 caliber bullet designed to be 100% compatible will all AR-15 parts including magazines, as I recall you only need a barrel swap. As I intend to do wild boar hunting in the Southern U.S. this heavier round is giving me more punch on a fairly dangerous and heavy critter over the 5.56/.223 (the AR-15's native round(s)) but again, fraction of the cost.

CSM honestly given how many people expressed interest and asked us stuff in the Gun Laws thread, I have to say I think this thread's a good idea. It might be an alien concept for some of our fellow forumites, but how can we make ourselves better understood as enthusiasts, and as members of a uniquely American sub-culture to a global audience if we only talk about something we're passionate about behind closed doors? That's what breeds bias, misconceptions and ultimately prejudice.

*Diane Feinstein is the senior Senator from California, a democrat and the queen of the gun grabbers, thus she is the mortal enemy of gun owner types (the politically active ones at least) sponsored the last attempt at an assault weapons ban this year, and was key to the '94 AWB.

**Bolt Carrier Group: The BCG is the part of the rifle where all the interesting stuff happens. In semi-automatic weapons, the gases of the shot propelling the round down range also moves the BCG back, ejecting the spent casing and resetting the firing pin, as well as locking the next round into place for firing. This video provides a decent illustration of what's happening.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Pilchard123 on 07 Jul 2013, 01:46
[...] I'll make sure to report. [...]

No, the gun does that. :P
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 07 Jul 2013, 01:51
Not with a good suppressor installed... >.>
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 07 Jul 2013, 01:55
[...] I'll make sure to report. [...]

No, the gun does that. :P

::slow clap::
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Skewbrow on 07 Jul 2013, 02:25
My only exposure to semi-automatic rifles (well, my only exposure to firearms) is from my conscript duty, when we used the local variant of a Kalashnikov (aka AK-47). As in your explanation, the force of gunpowder gases is partly redirected to eject the spent casing and reload a new round from the magazine. But in a Kalashnikov the pressure of the escaping gas is used to move back a piston inside a tube sitting on top of the barrel (IIRC there's a small hole on the ceiling of the barrel to let enough of the gas to go that way), and the motion of that piston does all the work. May be I missed it in your video, but I didn't see that happening there? Looked more like the pressure was directly causing the moving parts to go back and do their magic? May be slightly different way of achieving the same end result?

I'm a bit curious. If there are two (or more) different ways of doing it, what are their relative dis/advantages. The bits given to us (in the early 80s) were that Kalashnikovs have a reputation of being quite dependable, i.e. rarely malfunction. Having that extra tube was a concern for us conscripts in the sense that it was one more part we needed to take good care of (oil it and clean it after using the rifle). After all, that tube is also exposed to the corroding effects of gunpowder gases.
I would be a bit worried about having any of that corroding effect on the precision crafted parts: lock, action (?) ... Arrgh, I need to make a Wiki-dip to learn the correct English words for rifle parts - hoping to edit this late...

Edit: This wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_action#Blowback_operation)  lists some alternative ways of automatically powering the cycle. Garand and Kalashnikov seem to both use what's called "long stroke gas piston", but I didn't find AR-15 in that page. The same as M16?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 07 Jul 2013, 03:22
The short version is that the AR-15 is gas-operated like an AK, yes, but the piston is in the back of the gun, machined directly out of the bolt itself, and the gas is carried there by a skinny little tube that is often compared with an automobile exhaust pipe.  Some people consider this a serious weakness, and I think they are all sadly misguided and misinformed about one of the most clever rifle designs ever devised.

As to what makes one particular autoloading system superior or inferior to another, that's a very deep rabbit hole that both I and my laptop battery are too tired to dive into right now.  And yes there are plenty of types - pure blowback, mechanically-delayed blowback, gas-delayed blowback, blow-forward, short-stroke recoil operated, long-stroke recoil operated, short-stroke gas operated, long-stroke gas operated (like the Kalashnikov,) direct-gas operated... I could probably come up with a few more obscure ones if you pressed me to.

Edit: Yes, same as M16.  The M16 is the US Military's designation for a few different specific variants of the AR-15 family.  And yeah, you are correct; the Garand and AK are both long-stroke gas system guns.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 07 Jul 2013, 11:42
Back to the AR-15 Barbie doll comparison you can convert an AR-15 to a piston driven style system with conversion kits that go for $300-400 roughly. Honestly if you're not good enough about cleaning your rifles that you like the idea of having to put less elbow grease in, the problem is the shooter, not the rifle.

CSM is absolutely correct on preferences between operating systems. I actively shoot all kinds of rifles and I honestly think that preferring one over another in a "all my rifles must be X" sense is bollocks. I like AKs and appreciate their design. I have practiced the profession of warfare with the M-16 and it's system and find it excellent, it's siblings in the AR family like I own now are similarly solid. I've fired some really weird operating systems and found they worked just fine too. If you're a responsible shooter who takes good care of their equipment your firearm will not fail you whether you're on the range, hunting or fighting for your life.

Meanwhile someone is selling this beautiful creation in my local.

(http://s1054.photobucket.com/user/djwynkoop1130/library/Hollis%20Double%20Rifle)

Goddess DAMN I wish I had the 6.5k being asked for that beautiful classic. (Hollis 12 bore double rifle, it's got a closer relationship with field artillery then lesser rifles)

On a side note for the curious, the following's my current "shopping list" for various acquisitions in no particular order. This is the curse of the collector folks, I actively shoot, I hunt, occasionally I compete, and I carry for self defense but mostly I buy guns because I like'em.
Rifles:
.300 BL Upper
Mosin Nagant rifle
PSL rifle (aka the Dragunov knock off)
Ruger 10/22 (small semi automatic .22 caliber rifle, popular in the U.S.)
17XX Long Land pattern Brown Bess musket (Reproduction, I will never make the kind of money originals go for and if I did I would immediately donate such arms to a museum)
Sig 516 (modern variant that eats STANAGs*)
Mare's Leg in .45 LC (a pistolized lever action rifle, Zoey's gun in fire fly is an example of a mare's leg)**
FAL

Pistols:
Walther PPK (Yes. I'm a dork, got it)
Smith and Wesson Highway Patrolman revolver (classic American six gun)
Ruger Vaquero (reproduction of the Colt Single Action Army, /the/ six gun. in .45 Long Colt) **

Shotguns:
Double barrel 12 gauge**
Model 1897 Trench gun**

Expensive One Day Purchases: (every rifle on this list all told will run me /at least/ $2000, more when/if optics get involved)
IMI Tavor (the newly import legal civilian model of Israel's next gen assault rifle, and my one true love***)
M1A rifle (Not an M1 Garand, but in fact the civilian variant of the American M14 rifle)
Barret .50 Cal rifle. (Why do I want to be able to lob shots down range up to two miles? Because I can.)

*STANAG: STANdardization AGreement. Refers to a NATO document that standardized rifle magazines amongst NATO members. Such magazines are often just called "STANAGs". AR-15s/M-16s are the most prevalent rifle that uses STANAG magazines.
**These older arms are for competition in an American shooting league called "Cowboy Action Shooting" which is stupid amounts of fun. It combines cosplay, classic firearms and practical shooting skills in a glorious living history/renn faire atmosphere. It's directly comparable to modern three gun competitions which also focus on the interplay of "the big three" (shotgun, pistol and rifle) but of course uses modern arms. CAS is a bit easier to get into in many cases as three gun like most high end competition sports requires a lot of time, effort and money to even vaguely get good, CAS communities are a bit more greenhorn friendly and have more of a "fun" focus at the average event.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b6/Cowboy_Action_Shooting.JPG/300px-Cowboy_Action_Shooting.JPG)
***The TAR-21 (aka Tavor)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 07 Jul 2013, 15:30
Cowboy Action Shooting: Because LARPing with guns is still LARPing.

Quote
I actively shoot all kinds of rifles and I honestly think that preferring one over another in a "all my rifles must be X" sense is bollocks.

Variety is the spice of life - I am an equal opportunity collector.  That said, most of my interest has become invested in the AR-15 - what you get when you ask a team of aerospace engineers to design an infantry rifle.  Vanilla direct gas - none of this short-stroke conversion nonsense - and Colt/FNH/BCM or GTFO.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 07 Jul 2013, 18:25
You get a complete piece of garbage for it's first generation combat rifle? Yeah sounds about right. My uncle's a Vietnam vet and has some very choice words about the M16A1, most of them not fit for reprinting in polite company. It's been a couple tech generations and I loved my FN M16A4 more purely then any woman I've ever been with, (and with none of the fighting of her sister that I dated in bootcamp, an M-16A2 that really hated military drill) and would happily put my neck on the line with her. (Belladonna was her name for the curious, I loved the old "beautiful woman/deadly poison" thing.)

If CAS is LARP, what is Three Gun? LARP: Call of Duty edition? XD not that I wouldn't participate in WW2 reenacting which really is LARP... but it's all the fun bits of the Marine Corps, running around the woods with your buddies with a small arsenal fighting the bad guys, with none of the negative issues that come with the above. (Nazis don't use IEDs, and even if they did, no one is dead at the end of the day at a reenactment barring a serious accident.)

I still need to show up at a local three gun run with my Garand, 1911 and a 1897 trench gun once I get one. No silly plastic stocks here, or high end special metals, no sir/ma'am, just steel, wood and 'Murrica.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 07 Jul 2013, 19:32
I have come to realize that almost no one actually fully understands what happened with the first M16s.  It isn't a short or simple story, and yet its retelling has turned into a lot of sweeping generalizations and serious misunderstandings - a really annoying game of telephone.  Here's the short version that isn't bullshit:  The AR-15's introduction to military service was a disaster because of bureaucratic interference by the Office of the Secretary of Defense, to a treasonously idiotic level.  It was developed in the shadow of another weapon system and the prevailing mindset is "sure, we'll put it in service now, but the SPIW will just make it obsolete in four years anyway so it doesn't actually matter that much.  Don't bother spending any money at all on testing and further development, just push it into service as-is."  To which end the OSD (1) prevented known problems from being fixed (2) prevented suspected problems from being investigated (3) prevented further testing to uncover unknown problems and (4) introduced new problems that weren't there before McNamara's flunkies stuck their nose into the issue and started making uneducated engineering decisions from an administrative standpoint.  The rifle went into service in 1964 I think, and US Army spent four years fighting tooth-and-nail against the OSD to get all the bugs worked out.  The rifles that were rolling off the assembly lines by spring of 1968 were actually extremely reliable and dependable rifles (the one I intend to build is a semiauto copy of a 1972 USAF M16 and you best believe me, that is a nice rifle,) but few things survive a bad first reputation.  It also takes time to rotate out all the bad rifles for good ones, so the horror stories don't actually stop in 1968, but they start to stop there.

What you get when you ask a team of aerospace engineers to design something is a product where weight reduction (aluminium and plastic wherever you can substitute it in place of steel without getting too weak) and balance refinement (putting all the moving parts behind the breech and extending into the buttstock) are at the very top of the priority list, and concerns about cost/complexity of manufacture (machined aluminium alloy hot-forgings for most of the structural components?) are on the second page.

And yes, Three-Gun can be LARPing too.  :P
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 07 Jul 2013, 19:39
I hear you, and was mostly teasing because I know you're the biggest AR family fan girl I have honestly ever met. Not that that's a bad thing, like I said I love the platform and have lived by it and been in situations to die by it too. I still honestly prefer battle rifles to assault rifle class weapons systems, but then again my favorite mathematical formula is the one for the difference between cover and concealment... I'm also a luddite who would use a horse as his primary mode of transportation if that was in ANY WAY feasible.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: mtmerrick on 08 Jul 2013, 03:04
I'm also a luddite who would use a horse as his primary mode of transportation if that was in ANY WAY feasible.
trying not to hold the first part of that sentence against you (=P), but you know there are still a few places in the country where that IS actually a possibility, right?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Nikolai on 08 Jul 2013, 08:39

I still need to show up at a local three gun run with my Garand, 1911 and a 1897 trench gun once I get one. No silly plastic stocks here, or high end special metals, no sir/ma'am, just steel, wood and 'Murrica.

Let me know when, and I'll drive up and record/watch. That would be awesome


I just recently finished assembling my first AR-15 lower receiver. Picked up an Anderson stripped lower and CMMG parts kit before I left Georgia, and the buffer assembly while on leave in Wisconsin. Threw a tan stock and grip on that I got from a Canadian contractor while I was in Afghanistan. One of these days (translation: when I have money) I'll probably just spring for an assembled upper to finish the job.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 08 Jul 2013, 09:00
I'm also a luddite who would use a horse as his primary mode of transportation if that was in ANY WAY feasible.
trying not to hold the first part of that sentence against you (=P), but you know there are still a few places in the country where that IS actually a possibility, right?

The rejecting all technology for the greater glory of god bit? Or the using a horse as my primary transport? because the latter's theoretically possible any where, just not practical. The former is just kinda stupid.


I still need to show up at a local three gun run with my Garand, 1911 and a 1897 trench gun once I get one. No silly plastic stocks here, or high end special metals, no sir/ma'am, just steel, wood and 'Murrica.

Let me know when, and I'll drive up and record/watch. That would be awesome


I just recently finished assembling my first AR-15 lower receiver. Picked up an Anderson stripped lower and CMMG parts kit before I left Georgia, and the buffer assembly while on leave in Wisconsin. Threw a tan stock and grip on that I got from a Canadian contractor while I was in Afghanistan. One of these days (translation: when I have money) I'll probably just spring for an assembled upper to finish the job.

Assembled uppers are the way to go, shop around a little and watch Palmetto State Armory's sales, they have pretty good deals, but you need to watch carefully, lot of places have been selling uppers without BCGs, and those are kinda important.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Nikolai on 08 Jul 2013, 11:23
...Birth Control Glasses? :P
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 09 Jul 2013, 19:34
Bolt Carrier Groups!

Any way I return smelling of gun powder, sweat and happiness not much worse for the wear. M1 is BZO'd, I was going to check it at 200, but the range we were on was a real pain in the ass about checking targets, she was a bit low and to the left, but that corrected easily enough. I had my buddy Coin do a couple rounds down range with the Garand while I watched with a spotting scope, straight and true through the target and another 200 yards to the berm no problem. Had one really weird misfire with the Garand, my buddy The Baron, had already cleared it by the time I got over there, but the Garand's action smashed the hell out of a live round , like bent it in two places, dislodged the bullet a little... it was a real mess and I have no idea how that happened, performance was excellent other wise.

Only put a mag of 5.56 down range with the AR to ensure everything was as it should be mechanically and it's working great. Magpul's sights are just about right on too. Good enough for back up sights, now I just need to hunt up some glass. UTG's "Bugsplatter" series "CQB" scope has gotten a feth ton of good reviews so despite it being a bit bargain barrel I might give it a chance before picking up a pricier optic. The rifle's light as hell too. I wish I could have been hauling that sweet little thing around in the Marines. The flash hider functioned well, and I do actually think the couple ounces extra weight on the end of the barrel helped out with muzzle rise on hammer pairs/controlled pairs as reported by some reviewers. It's also quite aesthetically pleasing and I got several comments and questions about it and the AR over all.

The big thing for me today was pistol. I honestly never feel quite as confident as I want to be with a pistol compared to a rifle, mostly because I self taught myself pistol shooting and the Weaver stance. My 1911 has classic military leaf sights (Classic as in, what it came with out of the box in 1911) so they can apparently be a bit harder to use, but once I corrected a small tendency to angle slightly down (barely noticeable) I was putting nice groups in the red from a good Weaver no problem. Coin (who is fellow military and an NRA pistol instructor) told me I was good to go, but was more impressed with my 1911A1, it's Rock Island Armory which for those who don't know is a Filipino country famous for making extremely cheap entry level 1911s, now I know my baby performs, which is why she's my CCW, I will absolutely trust that hand gun with my life, but her ability to eat that nasty Tula (steel cased Russian ammo famous for being useable, but kinda janky) come back for seconds and not skip a beat (I torture tested her with 300 rounds of that crap, when I got the pistol, not a single misfire of any kind... she made me pay for it on the clean up though, ugh that ammo's gross) always seems to impress, along with the general smooth and comfortable, low recoil, easy to control action that makes a 1911, well a 1911. Knowing what I do about my RIA now, I honestly feel like I ripped off the company getting my girlie for $400 out the door.

Pro Tip of the Day that's Contrary to Common Knowledge/Practice: NEVER EVER decock 1911 style pistols* it's bad for the mechanism. Dry fire the weapon.

*unless it's one of those messed up versions that has been modified with a decocker.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Nikolai on 09 Jul 2013, 20:12
I've heard good things about UTG's optics, especially for the price they run. I've been debating picking one up for my Mossberg AR-22.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 09 Jul 2013, 21:16
Here's the one I'm looking at: http://www.amazon.com/UTG-3-9x32-Compact-Picatinny-Sunshade/dp/B005UGIMNQ/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=2DOT425KTAFSY&coliid=IE2HZ2CBVJ404
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 08 Oct 2013, 19:32
Someone stole one of my project ideas.

(http://thearmorygroup.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/coonan_357mag_0856.jpg)

I can't be mad though. It's beautiful, and I want one. Yes friends, that is a 1911 in .357 Magnum. Maybe there is a god who wants our happiness after all.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 08 Oct 2013, 19:49
You've never seen a Coonan before?  These things have been around (intermittently) for decades.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 09 Oct 2013, 09:58
Nope. I've heard about .357 Mag 1911s but figured they were a joke.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 12 Oct 2013, 18:22
I fired a Coonan several years ago.  It's nice and not as snappy a recoil as I'd expected.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 22 Oct 2013, 10:17
(https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/1378223_504035156359811_549411272_n.png)(https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1376583_504637992966194_1954903883_n.png)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 22 Oct 2013, 11:55
The first one? Awesome. The second one? Amusing. The third one doesn't belong here, especially since the title of the thread is (no politics).
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 22 Oct 2013, 12:35
the First definitely scares me. 
And I own some 20ga "artillery simulator" rounds. (Great for 4th of July celebrations, btw)

the Mosin Nagant is fucking hilarious.

the spoiler, while political, is a true illustration of the topic's history.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 22 Oct 2013, 12:38
I'm not going to respond to that, because no politics. Come on, now.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Barmymoo on 23 Oct 2013, 05:02
I'm not sure why it is that I find guns unsettling and distressing, whereas I find swords interesting and often beautiful, even though both are used to kill. I guess maybe because swords are less often used for murders these days than guns are? Anyway, I know absolutely nothing at all about sword functionality but I am intrigued by the beautiful intricate detail on the swords and ... swordcase thingies. Presumably they have no functional purpose? Why waste time and effort prettifying your weapon?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 23 Oct 2013, 05:10
Sheaths, and most often times they don't, usually it was just a way to show status or rank... or whether or not one was a noble. In many cases functional details were made artistic, and that in itself was considered a mark of high quality craftsmanship, it would also cost a small fortune, as it does to this day. Personally May I see firearms and swords in a very similar light. There is a beauty to firearms from about the 1950s back and in modern well made arms that is no less then any other work of craftsmanship.

For example (Spoiler contains an AR-15 with classic style case hardening and wood furniture and a Hartman and Weiss bolt action rifle. Trigger warning: Guns)
(click to show/hide)

These particular examples, like high end officer swords and swords of nobility, are meant to be beautiful as well as functional. Though I see no less beauty in a well functioning M1 Garand myself.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Barmymoo on 23 Oct 2013, 05:14
I thought that was the word and then second-guessed myself. Thanks!

Those guns are beautiful.  They still unsettle me a bit though because I've got a deeply-ingrained association with those shapes and the idea of violence, death and fear (it is probably incredibly relevant that I have only seen guns in real life when they were being carried by armed police in anticipation of a riot). The artistry explanation makes a lot of sense though. Presumably that isn't the case any more and all armed servicepeople have the same style of weapons if they have the same... uh, brand?

[I might move these posts to the gun thread as they are not very pointless - any thoughts, anyone?]
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 23 Oct 2013, 06:24
I thought that was the word and then second-guessed myself. Thanks!

Those guns are beautiful.  They still unsettle me a bit though because I've got a deeply-ingrained association with those shapes and the idea of violence, death and fear (it is probably incredibly relevant that I have only seen guns in real life when they were being carried by armed police in anticipation of a riot). The artistry explanation makes a lot of sense though. Presumably that isn't the case any more and all armed servicepeople have the same style of weapons if they have the same... uh, brand?

[I might move these posts to the gun thread as they are not very pointless - any thoughts, anyone?]

It might be worth moving them.

Type might be the more appropriate term for a lot of firearms. For example the M16A4 service rifle I carried in the Marines is made by a variety of manufacturers, just in my service I carried Colt and Fabrique National (FN), the M16 design itself and it's AR15 counterpart are made by thousands of manufacturers world wide, as is it's East Bloc counterpart, the venerable AK-47. (Poor Mikhail Kalashnikov hasn't seen a penny for the many hundreds of millions of copies made world wide). That's really what killed artistry in firearms, mass production. You can see the same type of thing in that lovely arming sword Snalin shared, while we see it as an almost pretty piece now because of the craftsmanship involved in it's day it was a mass produced bulk weapon, the backswords, arming swords, and etc of nobles other members of the leadership cast, would have been vastly improved on that and other basic, and primarily functional designs, and made to the man instead of produced at large for the common foot soldiery.

The reason I draw the line for "artful" weapons in the military around the M1 Garand is mostly personal taste, CSM's our resident Stoner... heheh... fangirl so she might even take umbrage at that, but I see the following weapons as having lost something to the process of modern mass manufacturing. Obviously an individual smith can still do quite a lot with the modern designs, some very beautiful like above... others... are less so.

Trigger warning: A very, very ugly gun.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Barmymoo on 23 Oct 2013, 06:34
Well hey look at that, I successfully moved and merged a thread! Awesome.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 23 Oct 2013, 07:42
Mod firsts are fun!
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 23 Oct 2013, 08:30
I kinda changed my mind about thinking moving this stuff might be a good idea, just on the grounds it was part of a natural progression of conversation in that other thread. Albeit we do have two (one political and the other not) gun threads and no sword thread (something that needs to be rectified asap any way) but the conversation only became not pointless after firearms were mentioned, (roughly three posts total) compared to what I recall as a page and some change worth of sword discussion.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Barmymoo on 23 Oct 2013, 08:46
I agree that we might well need a sword thread! I can split off the sword posts as well.

The reason I wanted to take it out of the pointless thread was because that is a very clearly-defined thread with a specific purpose that has lasted a very long time, and I didn't want to allow it to be derailed (especially since derailing threads is one of my particular talents).
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 23 Oct 2013, 11:10
I luv me the artistic flow of form and function.  I'm not a fan of mass produced plastic guns, no matter how 'beautified'.
The American Longrifle is a beautiful weapon in all its variations.
(http://www.gunclassics.com/images/kyrifle-2.jpg)

you can search the millions of images of how the wood flows with the iron and is highlited/reinforced with brass... most are works of art in my eyes.

(http://www.octobercountry.com/product_images/k/07_5935__46653.jpg)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 23 Oct 2013, 11:25
I don't necessarily take umbrage at that, because I think we are looking at - and appreciating - different things, maybe.

[It worries me a little bit how much the following post reveals about my personality.]

I am a natural-born and obsessive tinkerer.  If something has a large number of moving parts, I'm going to want to take it apart and put it back together again and figure out how every bit of it works.  I'm good at working on cars (two years of drivetrain maintenance school, hello) but have very little actual interest in them - they are everywhere and kind of struck me as passé as a kid.  I tend to be drawn more to working on isolated engines outside the context of cars.  Airplanes and helicopters are much more my style, I'm a huge aviation fanatic, but as a hobby it is prohibitively expensive.  Clocks and watches are fun, but the parts are very tiny and difficult to manipulate and are not particularly robust.  Guns have near the complexity of time pieces without the fragility and with the added benefit of dangerous amounts of heat, noise, and pressure (did I mention I also like jet engines?)  Yeah, they're weapons - I'm very conscious of this fact, I know all about using them as weapons and it's something I take into consideration with regards to owning them, but my actual interest in firearms as a hobby?  Unadulterated geekery.  When I look at guns, this is what I see:

(click to show/hide)

That Hartman and Weiss rifle Garand posted has a certain level of sex appeal, yeah, but honestly the engraving and gold leaf and fancy wood grain and case-hardening coloration just aren't my bag of tea.  I'm interested in the engineering and mechanical aspects of gun design.  In that vein, yeah, the AR-15 - what you get when you ask a team of Cold War aerospace engineers to design an infantry rifle, very innovative in terms of weight reduction and balance correction - is right up my alley.



I may or may not have also spent the last week obsessing over how much better Ruger double-action revolvers are than Smith & Wesson's product line.  Diehard S&W fanatics sneer at Ruger because they just don't have the same pedigree; S&W has been making almost the exact same hand-ejector design, with minor improvements, for 118 years.  Sturm, Ruger & Co. has been in business since 1949 and has only been making hand-ejectors since 1972 - only about a third of the time that S&W has.  Let the S&W snobs sneer all the want.  Ruger came to the drawing board with none of the stubborn prejudices of the old gunmakers and designed their revolvers from the ground up, ultimately coming up with what is just plainly speaking a better design.  The attitude about maintenance presented by S&W is more or less along the lines of, "Don't you dare try to perform your own internal maintenance you ham-fisted prole.  Be a good kid, just clean the cylinder while it is still installed in the gun and drip some oil down the hammer opening and pawl slot.  We're not going to tell you how to take the side plate off because honestly you'll just screw up the insides if you do, and if you try we will all laugh at how stupid you look with screwdriver pry marks on the side of your gun.  In the inconceivable event something actually needs replacement or modification, take it to a trained gunsmith."  Then Ruger comes along and designs a revolver that comes apart for cleaning and maintenance by the end-user not unlike a military rifle (http://i.imgur.com/LBCRRwi.jpg).  In 1979 they design the Ruger Redhawk's new cylinder locking mechanism, an order of magnitude stronger and more wear resistant than S&W's contemporary two-point design (S&W did come out with an improved locking system - the "Triple Lock" - in 1908 that is on par with the Redhawk design, but they only produced it for four years before going back to the original.)  Smith & Wesson, it's been fun, but I'm breaking up with you.

Unadulterated geekery.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 23 Oct 2013, 12:28
I love it when you talk technical like that.

I find I strongly appreciate both aesthetics and the sheer mechanical sexiness of a firearm equally important. I appreciate the AR's mechanical design, I personally find is aesthetically appealing in general as well. Super purdyified guns, but I would rather have a rugged design, with a very fuctional system behind it. Pretty can then be added, like the gilt on a sword.

That's why the M1 is a beautiful weapon to me, the design is very well done, and the rifle itelf is very visually appealing especially if proper maintenance is taken care of on the stock.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 23 Oct 2013, 12:31
Emoroffle made sure to tell me in not so few words how stupid she thinks the classic AR carry handle looks.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 23 Oct 2013, 12:37
I love the classic AR carry handle, it's useless for carrying the weapon in any meaningful way, but it's match grade sights are perfectly integrated into a stable, secure platform that way, and it lines up nicely with eye level. Eventually I am going to put together an M16A2 pattern AR just because the 20" barrel, fixed stock, and sights on the classic carry handle just /work/ for me. That bad boy lets me smack head sized targets with a good group at 500m using military green tip rounds. That's pretty goddamn awesome. I actively dislike the M16A4 in comparison because I have to rely on the ACOG rifle scope. While Trijicon makes an excellent product I found I didn't group or shoot nearly as tighly and accurately when I was using irons.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 24 Oct 2013, 07:36
I love it when you talk technical like that.

 :-D Ditto  :-D  but then I'm a Sturm & Ruger fanboy.
 I actually prefer THIS: (Ruger Ranch Rifle in all its beauty)
(click to show/hide)


over THIS: (Standard M14 with gorgeous stock)
(click to show/hide)

but then, I'd prefer either over a M-16/AR-15 clone. 
In reality, it has less to do with the mechanics than the aesthetic of wood and steel.

*editted to conform with forum rules*
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 24 Oct 2013, 07:38
....if I can have ANY .30 caliber rifle I will take it over a 5.56 caliber for just about any purpose other then deer hunting. Now that I get to pick my own ammo I just prefer high caliber, powerful full rifle rounds, and military battle rifles in particular. (Now I need to go see a man about an FAL...)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: pwhodges on 24 Oct 2013, 09:07
(Comment about gun images removed)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 24 Oct 2013, 10:07
Right on. Was there a specific problem post you'd like one of us to edit Hodges?


In other news I think I found my rifle scope... eventually. Any opinions on Nikon?
http://www.amazon.com/Nikon-P-223-3x32-Matte-Carbine/dp/B006Z07JTE/ref=psdc27_t2_B005UGIMNQ_B006Z07JTE

Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: pwhodges on 24 Oct 2013, 10:12
It's actually Grognard's last post that tipped it for me; but I'll be satisfied with using spoilers in this thread when no technical gunsmithing issues are being discussed.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 24 Oct 2013, 13:33
I apologize and have editted my post.

sometimes it's hard to describe a difference in beauty without a picture, because the picture can say more than my 10k worth of words.  But I will try to conform with the spoiler rule better.

Anyone have recommendations for putting a scope on a Stevens model 65 pump shotgun?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: pwhodges on 24 Oct 2013, 13:57
I apologise for the lack of clarity; but as the result of a discussion among the mods, we have decided that within this thread which is specifically about guns, I was being stricter than necessary.  This thread is about guns - those who don't wish to see guns can safely avoid it because the title clearly says what it is, so I will not insist on spoilers.

Thanks to you both for being prepared to cooperate, though!
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: indiespy on 05 Nov 2013, 18:39
Lately I've been playing with the idea of a compact version of the Tokarev pistol as a back up to my carry pistol which happens to be a Yugo Tokarev. My only problem is finding a shorter barrel, slide and recoil spring. The recoil spring and slide would be the hardest from a engineering point. Any suggestions or ideas? I'm planning to use a standard Romanian or Polish frame and just matching them to the shortened upper.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 05 Nov 2013, 19:17
My first thought is to cut and weld the slide in the middle, to remove material between the locking lug recesses and the bushing track.  I don't think there's enough meat to machine a new bushing track if you just shorten the slide from the front end.  Shouldn't be any problem shortening the guide rod to match, but you'll have to bump up to a stiffer spring to account for the lighter slide.  That's a pretty ambitious project though.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: indiespy on 05 Nov 2013, 19:25
My first thought is to cut and weld the slide in the middle, to remove material between the locking lug recesses and the bushing track.  I don't think there's enough meat to machine a new bushing track if you just shorten the slide from the front end.  Shouldn't be any problem shortening the guide rod to match, but you'll have to bump up to a stiffer spring to account for the lighter slide.  That's a pretty ambitious project though.

The slide shouldn't be a problem then. My father can do the welding. The spring however is what I'm concerned with. I don't know what the standard spring is rated for and what I will need for the new slide.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 05 Nov 2013, 19:27
Yeah that's a serious piece of work. I concur with CSM in general, I'd have to look at a Tokarev in person and think about it before I had any concrete thoughts on the project.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: indiespy on 05 Nov 2013, 19:32
Yeah that's a serious piece of work. I concur with CSM in general, I'd have to look at a Tokarev in person and think about it before I had any concrete thoughts on the project.

Just think 1911 but a bit smaller. Though the take down is a million times easier.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 05 Nov 2013, 20:03
The 1911's take down is hard?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: indiespy on 05 Nov 2013, 20:06
Nope, that's what I mean.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 05 Nov 2013, 20:11
Thing I've noticed with the Tokarev is you're still supposed to take the bushing/recoil plug/spring out the front end before you take the slide off the frame or you're likely to kink the recoil spring, as with the 1911, but apparently I'm the only person who actually does it that way if the YouTube videos are to be believed.  The Tokarev's lockwork is an order of magnitude less complicated though.

Fun fact: I can strip and reassemble a Tokarev entirely using only my right hand.  Getting the spring and bushing back in involves equal parts pain, magic, and creative use of work surfaces.

Thinking about it now, you may be better off turning the guide rod to a slightly smaller diameter and using dual coaxial springs to get more power in a shorter fully-compressed length.  Finding a spring of the right inside and outside diameter, power, and fully compressed length - especially considering it also has to fit what, an inch?  Less space than you'd normally have because of the shortened slide - is going to be a pain.  Wolff doesn't list the power of their replacement recoil springs on their page, but I suppose you could email them and ask them.  Then make the total spring power 4lb-6lb greater than stock, and trim off half a ring at a time from one of the springs while test-firing until it cycles reliably.  Important thing to remember about doing a dual spring setup like that is to make sure the inside and outside springs turn in opposite directions, otherwise the coils will get tangled up in each other and cause the gun to short-stroke.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: indiespy on 05 Nov 2013, 21:03
Thing is though is that the dual springs add a slight possibility of failure. The Tokarev is absurdly reliable even when compared to a Glock. Which I'm proud to say that my fifty year old  Tokarev out performed a brand new Glock and a brand new Kimber. Gotta love soviet guns.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 13 Nov 2013, 21:18
(https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1469813_608336249224309_2104279866_n.jpg)

Favorite breath control tricks? I've been working my ass off trying to get a proper "half breath" for long range shooting. It's a bear. The lack of an actual range to practice on doesn't help much either.

A guidance trick that can help with jerking the trigger is, from the firing position, finger on the trigger, keep your second knuckle of the firing finger aligned parallel to the pistol, it requires a little more effort, as you'll be engaging less muscle to your trigger pull, but you're engaging the weapon and exerting force on it much more cleanly, which will keep your weapon on target better.

If any of you active shooters don't have one already, pick up a guitarist "work out" grip, beef up your fingers, those gorilla grips to get the whole hand and wrist are excellent as well. I find keeping fingers, hand and wrist in good work improves stability, as well as making pretty much anything else interacting with the weapon with one's hands a better operation.

Do any of you guys practice failure drills regularly?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 14 Nov 2013, 10:28
stove pipe clearing ?
yep
Tap, Rack, Bang.
oh yeah.

just got to.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 27 Nov 2013, 07:45
(https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1453442_700963236588277_377961037_n.jpg)

I know it's impractical, but I fully intend to make one of these.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 29 Nov 2013, 08:27
I need a thousand dollars... well make that $1500
 I need one of these: http://www.amazon.com/Aimpoint-PRO-Patrol-Rifle-Optic/dp/B007GDR0I4/ref=sr_1_1?s=hunting-fishing&srs=2581843011&ie=UTF8&qid=1385741614&sr=1-1&keywords=aimpoint

I also need a .300 Blackout / .300 Whisper upper for my AR-15 and then a scope for that as well.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 04 Jan 2014, 18:21
(https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1601567_692270780807194_305066723_n.jpg)

I have a lot of initial responses to this pistol

Notably:
(click to show/hide)

That it's a very lovely and artistic piece aside, I kinda wonder how it impacts basic operation. One of the things I love most about the 1911 platform is it's balance. The full size 1911 is balanced and perfect, and in my hands at least I barely feel the recoil, it's motion is literally an extension of my body and was from the very first time I held one.

So looking at this design besides the aesthetic characteristics of the cut. I'm thinking it could potentially have a significant negative impact on performance, increasing felt recoil, and opening lots of opportunity for snagging and fowling.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 26 Jan 2014, 05:47

Oh... oh my~ That is some SERIOUS ballistically lethal ammunition. I /need/ a box of that in .45
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 26 Jan 2014, 13:48
how about wrapping your noggin around THIS concept...

(http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/s_640x_480-tfb-tm.jpg)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 26 Jan 2014, 13:56
Is there a meaningful difference between a fully-automatic pistol and a submachine gun?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 26 Jan 2014, 14:10
Pistols usually have 5" or less barrels, and even when full auto capable, are clearly handguns.

submachine guns are usually carbine type weapons.

but there can be a lot of 'grey' area between the two.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 26 Jan 2014, 14:29
Right, by "meaningful" I meant are there any weapons that could be considered both or either?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 26 Jan 2014, 17:56
Errr. Yes and no? Like Grog said it's a grey area. The MP5-K and MP7 could probably be considered both as they're compact sub-machine guns.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 26 Jan 2014, 21:35
EXAMPLE
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/MarineCorpsGlock18.jpg/320px-MarineCorpsGlock18.jpg)
the Glock18 select fire is what Most people consider a Sub-Machine Pistol.
1. select fire: Safe, Single, Automatic.
2. frame is built to accept a shoulder stock.
3. slightly (+.5") longer barrel.

so it is not a Sub Machine Gun ala Thompson M1928A1 or Standard UZI.

hope this helps in absolutely confusing you. :D
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 26 Jan 2014, 21:38
Honestly this is one of those things where I just let it go, and use the "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck" method.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 26 Jan 2014, 21:40
Letting things go was never my strong suit.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 26 Jan 2014, 21:45
You are correct to maintain a firm grip on your weapon.




deadly weapon, :D friendly weapon:  whatev'....
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 26 Jan 2014, 21:53
Then think of it like a venn diagram. Automatic pistols are handguns, that fire handgun caliber rounds. Sub-Machineguns are carbine sized weapons that fire handgun caliber rounds. Some weird models are in between those standards. However my general rule of thumb is unless it's a handgun modified to fire at a fully automatic rate like that Glock 18 above, it's a submachine gun.

(http://www.thespecialistsltd.com/files/Replica_MAC10.JPG)
(http://uzitalk.com/reference/shoots/uzitalk2007/guns/Micro%20UZI.jpg)

So this MAC-10 and Mico Uzi are both submachine guns

and this Beretta 93R
(http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/handguns/italy/hg137/1287740830.jpg)

Is a pistol.

Personally I avoid the term machine pistol just because it can be confused with German terminology for a submachine gun.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Jotunheim on 28 Jan 2014, 04:22
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/11447722/rubber-band-machine-gun-0 (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/11447722/rubber-band-machine-gun-0) Does this count?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 28 Jan 2014, 14:05
Yes, even if it is too late.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Nikolai on 22 Feb 2014, 21:28
Yesterday I cleaned a Browning M2 HB .50 caliber machine gun that was stamped as being manufactured by the AC Spark Plug Division of General Motors. Looked into things a little further, and it turns out what that means is that particular machine gun was manufactured during WWII. Makes me wonder if there's some way to trace serial numbers and get some sort of timeline on the weapon's life, where it's been, etc. History like that fascinates me.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 23 Feb 2014, 11:36
Reminds me of the life of a bullet video in the beginning of Lord of War.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 23 Feb 2014, 11:55
Yesterday I cleaned a Browning M2 HB .50 caliber machine gun that was stamped as being manufactured by the AC Spark Plug Division of General Motors. Looked into things a little further, and it turns out what that means is that particular machine gun was manufactured during WWII. Makes me wonder if there's some way to trace serial numbers and get some sort of timeline on the weapon's life, where it's been, etc. History like that fascinates me.

If you find the original serial number there should be. I know for the M1 Garand in particular there's whole websites dedicated to doing "firearm genealogy"
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 18 Mar 2014, 10:12
(https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1.0-9/1912170_678368168868923_2022101931_n.jpg)

I don't think supressors should heat up like that >.>;

In other news here's a fun project build desecrating a Mosin Nagant:
https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1.0-9/1912170_678368168868923_2022101931_n.jpg
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 18 Mar 2014, 10:34
anyone have an idea how much gunsmithing labor costs (by the hour?)

Also: this is my rifle.
.50 caliber (12.7mm) black powder, muzzleloader of the Hawken style, with a percussion cap lock.

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n219/steve_ronin/Weapons%20Record%202012/HawkenbuttstockOA.jpg) (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/steve_ronin/media/Weapons%20Record%202012/HawkenbuttstockOA.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 18 Mar 2014, 10:47
Lovely piece Groggy! and it depends on the area, but labor costs depending on skill level and what's being done can run from $25-50/hr more if you're going to a specialist in a particular procedure.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 18 Mar 2014, 20:15
I'm looking to get some sling swivels mounted and maybe scopes.

My T/C Arms Hawken is a 1974 manufacture.
the rifle is capable of 250 yards maximum effective range:
I can hit an 8" (200mm) target w/10-15% accuracy.
but for MY maximum effective (50%+) I'm only good out to 175-180.
Historically, the Hawken rifle was able to make 300+ yard shots.
how?   it is said that hunger hones the skills.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a8/TC-Hawken.JPG)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 18 Mar 2014, 21:31
drilling and tapping stuff's usually pretty cheap and easy.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: pwhodges on 19 Mar 2014, 02:07
The established forum rules about picturing guns remain in place outside this thread: pictures that show guns simply for their own sake are not allowed; but in this thread pictures can be included that help to explain a point being made or demonstrate the result of a technique being discussed.

Global Moderator Comment The last few posts seem to me to be outside what is permitted for this thread. They seem to me to be showing pictures of guns for their own sake, which remains prohibited.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Nikolai on 19 Mar 2014, 06:07
(click to show/hide)
I don't think supressors should heat up like that >.>;

In other news here's a fun project build desecrating a Mosin Nagant:
https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1.0-9/1912170_678368168868923_2022101931_n.jpg

The link is the same picture as posted. Also, I'm genuinely curious as to how many rounds they fired to make the suppressor glow. Enough to warrant the wear of a mask, obviously...
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 19 Mar 2014, 06:33
Whoops. Epic fail: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/03/jeremy-s/project-build-ultimate-mosin-nagant/

I thought the heating effect of that testing was interesting... and it appears my comments to that effect vanished along with the right link >.>;

Also I thought the last couple posts of the muzzle loader was Groggy displaying the weapon he wanted modified so I could give him a better off the top of my head estimate.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: pwhodges on 19 Mar 2014, 06:34
Ah, OK - I wasn't clear (probably didn't read enough).
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 21 Mar 2014, 21:23
And now a brief guide on adding or updating surplus military rifles.

(https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1.0-9/1972493_524699454315999_557137841_n.jpg)


Agree or disagree ladies and gents? I personally HATE tacticooling rifles, particularly Moist Nuggets or SKSs, AKs... okay there's a bet of give there, but those dust cover scope mounts make me want to beat someone to death with their own leg.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 23 Mar 2014, 06:42
I can agree and disagree with you there.
I agree in that, when you've a proven good rifle, anything more than the telescopic mount factory designed for that rifle... you are ruining the aesthetics.  I.E., the sniper systems used in WW2, look great and work with the flow of the weapons.

Besides, putting a dust cover scope mount on an AK or SKS is an exercise in futility. 
Every single shot, that dust cover MOVES.
which means after the first shot, you are not dialed in any more.
and you wouldn't want to mount a light that far aft and block your sights.

I guess I'm saying I agree with useful accessories that don't detract from the overall function or appearance of the weapon.

Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 23 Mar 2014, 08:25
I thought "tacticooling" referred explicitly to accessories that do either or both of those things.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 23 Mar 2014, 08:39
Factory scope mounts don't count as tacticooling in my mind. Tacticooling doesn't necessarily mean accessories that don't detract from the overall function or appearance of the weapon. It's throwing unnecessary crap on your weapon for no good reason at all. 

http://imgur.com/a/RAo2C
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 23 Mar 2014, 09:21
That is hilarious!!!!
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 23 Mar 2014, 09:28
Tacticooling doesn't necessarily mean accessories that don't detract from the overall function or appearance of the weapon.
I was saying tacticooling meant accessories that DO detract.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 23 Mar 2014, 09:52
Well technically a foregrip and a shitty scope don't detract from functionality. They're still useless though.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 27 Mar 2014, 11:31
http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/california-lawmaker-faces-gun-corruption-charges

This industry is a rough one when those who make the law undermine it. Especially when those people are closing the noose on the necks of legit businessmen and law abiding citizens while apparently supporting the worst kind of criminal scum.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Akima on 27 Mar 2014, 15:04
Er... No politics?

I dropped in here to ask a question. What is the generic term for a holster on the same side as the drawing hand? I mean the opposite of a "cross draw". The question came up in an RPG context, and I realised that I had no idea.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 27 Mar 2014, 15:50
There's nothing law based or political about that, it is important industry news though.

To answer your question it's "strong side"
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Nikolai on 27 Apr 2014, 07:38
I'm looking to get into recreational distance shooting when I get home. Do any of y'all have recommendations for platform to start off with? I'm currently split pretty equally between the classic Remington 700, or going with a Savage 110. My only real requirement is that the action be left-handed, and .338 LaPua Magnum for caliber. My overall goal is to work up to surpassing Corporal Craig Harrison's 2707m confirmed shot in Afghanistan a few years back. Would it be worth the extra pennies to spring for a bull barrel? How much do you think the barrel harmonics would be affected if I had it tapped and drilled for a compensator?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 27 Apr 2014, 08:16
Go with the 700. Out of the box you're getting significantly better accuracy. You also want the heavy barrel for sure. I'd also get the following upgrades immediately:

Timany trigger (Really do some research on a trigger upgrade, Timany's good, but you can probably find even better towards what you want)
Leupold Scope (Invest this cash up front, it'll be worth it and save you buying a better scope down the road)
Harris Bipod

Future upgrades:
Stock swap for something more competition grade Accuracy International is the best of the best
If you don't want to shell out for an AI stock, find something similar and make sure it's professionally installed, you want it pillared and glass bedded, especially if you stick with wood.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Nikolai on 27 Apr 2014, 12:05
I'm trading my current finished AR lower for a mil-spec Leo my armorer "acquired", and I "found" a Harris bipod during a mass weapons cleaning event that was a favor to a sister Company a couple months back.

The reason I was considering the Savage is a while back, The Firearm Blog posted a video of a fellow landing rounds on-target at 2500m using a 110 BA. Someone posted this in the comment section:


My original intent was 2000m, but I'd really like to push a rifle/round out as far as I can get it.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 15 May 2014, 00:02
You want the Remington at the very least for 2000m plus. I like Savage, but...

In other news, some pretty interesting Q&A stuff courtesy of the ATF recently:
http://imgur.com/a/vt2Qz

and for you lovely motherfuckers like me who want to own lots and lots of class III toys:
http://blog.princelaw.com/2014/05/14/did-atfs-determination-on-nics-checks-open-the-door-for-manufacture-of-new-machineguns-for-trusts/

[singing]Do you wanna build a Browning?
ATF says we can go out and play
Gatling guns and more
Just open the door
Form a trust and we're away
F-Troop used to be real Nazis
but now they're starting to slip
get your tools
Do you wanna build a Browning?
It doesn't have to be a Browning.[/singing]
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Nikolai on 15 May 2014, 01:21
Compromise: Savage in a smaller, less expensive caliber to ease into the learning curve, and Remington further down the road once I know what I'm doing. Because all my long distance shots to date have been pulling triggers on a 120mm smoothbore.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 15 May 2014, 04:54
If that's the route you wanna go. I'd go with .308 if it's distance shooting you eventually want and you don't want to go with the Lapua right off the bat.

I also admit I question the Savage action. A lot. but that is absolutely personal bias because I just think of their rifles as being cheap.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 15 May 2014, 05:58
Because all my long distance shots to date have been pulling triggers on a 120mm smoothbore.

 :-D When you care enough to send the very best: "On the Way"!  :-D

Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 15 May 2014, 06:34
Load Heat! Up! On the way!
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Nikolai on 16 May 2014, 12:37
Oh jeebuz what I would give to get an "expend all ammunition".
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 21 May 2014, 19:31
So I've been planning out my three big projects for gunsmithing school.

Project rifle 1: .456 Win Mag, Mauser Action, heavy barrel, wood stock, iron sights, tapped and drilled to take a scope. Internal magazine... probably will get three or four rounds in there if I'm lucky. This is set up as a dangerous game rifle. .456 Win Mag means I can take game just about any where in the world, and the Mauser action is a great one as a bolt gun for fast follow up shots and clearing malfunctions. I chose this as my first project rifle because it MUST be a traditional American bolt gun, and a big game rifle is not something I would purchase of my own accord.

Project 2: RIA+ Program - Not a full project so to speak, I have a couple hundred hours of gunsmithing (approximately 100 guns worth) of "actual" gunsmithing to do before I can start my final project weapon, I can however work on my own weapons which will include taking my RIA 1911A1 and upgrading it with some VERY sexy parts from Wilson Combat to include a WC Match trigger, combat extended safety, skeletonized hammer, match grade barrel AND most importantly dovetail high vis sights to replace the old school blade sights my baby has on there now.

Project 3: This is my final project and I have plenty of freedom in how it gets done. To that end it's going to be a Cooper style scout rifle in .308 based on the Rem 700 short action with a timany trigger (assuming I can find one), a mod so I can feed my .308 magazines, iron sights with a relief scope mounted forward of the action, and a wooden stock I'm going to carve in the Dragunov style. Receiver will be pillared and glass bedded. If I do it right the rifle will be less than 1 meter in length, and less than 3 kilograms in weight. That restriction may make me switch to a "plastic" stock, but I think the wood cutouts for the Dragunov style stock should save enough weight in theory.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Blyss on 22 May 2014, 08:17
I grew up in rural Oklahoma, and ours was a hunting family, so we had lots of guns in the house.  I'm not really an enthusiast myself, but I respect the craft and art that goes into gunsmithing.

My cousin, however, is a different story.  My younger cousin Brian is the head gunsmith at the gun shop on the animal planet show, Wild Alaska.  I've only ever seen one episode, and he and I aren't close, but yeah - we're related.

It's kind of funny, he was always pretending to be on television shows when we were kids, and now he is.  I guess it was meant to be.

His claim is that there's not a gun he can't make - and from his reputation, I guess it's true.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 06 Jun 2014, 13:15
(https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t1.0-9/10348528_680676708670256_6084621616872940395_n.jpg)

Any one know what this beauty is?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 06 Jun 2014, 13:19
A work of art, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 06 Jun 2014, 19:45
got to be some specialty safari gun.
lessee here.
a 7mm rifle,
over two .450 ? Express
over a 20 ga.
:?:
talk about your All-In-One.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 06 Jun 2014, 20:34
Yeah... that was what I was thinking. Some rich hunter only wanted to buy one gun for literally fucking everything.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 08 Jun 2014, 12:10
It's a drilling - a three or four barrel combo gun for... basically what you stated.  They're more popular as hunting weapons in Europe, and that's where most of them are made, by specialty gunsmiths that don't do anything else.  Who made this one I can't say but I'd venture a guess that it's German.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 08 Jun 2014, 16:48
I suppose that would make sense in countries where firearms are difficult or expensive to acquire. There's also the fact that that weapon probably cost more than a mid grade sports car.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 08 Jun 2014, 20:41
I don't know who made it where, or what all is chambered,
but I think it is a beautiful piece of art.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 09 Jun 2014, 04:00
.22 hornet, 8x57J and a 20 gauge like you said

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/06/daniel-zimmerman/p320-entry-remington-700-still-best-bolt-gun/
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 14 Jun 2014, 07:45
Meanwhile in the People's Republic of China, confiscated revolver shotguns.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t31.0-8/10338662_334871009993200_3193694015829831123_o.jpg)

Local made too.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 14 Jun 2014, 08:29
Before I saw the picture, I was imagining a giant handgun that somehow shot shotgun shells. I know that doesn't make sense at all, but I'm still disappointed.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 14 Jun 2014, 10:49
Dude. Look at it. You REALLY aren't far off there.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 14 Jun 2014, 11:08
Oh man that's cool.  I wonder how they made the cylinder-advance mechanism work.  They're apparently pump-action and I doubt they would have gone to the trouble of adding the slide if you still had to rotate the cylinder by hand, but there's no cam track on the outside of the cylinder and it doesn't seem like there's quite enough room for a traditional ratchet-and-pawl mechanism.  Or maybe a Striker-style clockwork spring, I don't know.  In any case I'd love to get my hands on one and take it apart.

ETA: That's also one hell of an industrious operation if these are all clandestine-manufacture.  Most situations like this, the builders settle for STEN-style tube guns for the sake of simplicity.  This took dedication.

Also as cool as these are I would not want to light one off with a 12ga stockless shotgun with a grip like that.  That's gotta hurt.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 14 Jun 2014, 11:38
The triads don't fuck around
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 14 Jun 2014, 21:13
I thought they were pump style paintball markers at first.....
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Akima on 17 Jun 2014, 07:50
Reading the Chinese characters ( 刑事警察局 or Criminal Investigation Bureau) on the sheets, and looking at the logo printed underneath (which includes the badge of the Taiwanese National Police Agency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Police_Agency_(Republic_of_China)), I think that photograph was taken in Taiwan, not the PRC. I remember reading that a man had been arrested there some time ago (2005?), I think, for running an "underground arsenal" making those things for criminal gangs. I recall the reports saying that the cylinder was rotated by hand, and the "pump action" simply served to cock the hammer.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 17 Jun 2014, 08:26
Crude. But effective.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 17 Jun 2014, 12:26
Adding a pump slide to recock the hammer/striker (can't tell which it is) seems like a grossly inefficient use of shop time and materials when you still have to rotate the cylinder by hand.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 17 Jun 2014, 15:13
agreed.

I think the recoil would be VICIOUS with any shot over 20 ga.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Akima on 17 Jun 2014, 16:35
What is the difference between a hammer and a striker?

As for the "pump action", I am guessing it is rational from a safety/ergonomic point of view. I don't think you'd want to carry something like that around cocked, since I'm sure it has no sort of safety-catch. Without the pump thing, the firer would have to take a hand off the pistol-grip or fore-grip, of a rather unbalanced weapon, to pull back the hammer/striker. With the pump, the firer would be able to keep both hands in their proper position while readying the gun to fire. It does seem odd though that the maker didn't include some kind of stud-and-cam type arrangement, having already done a substantial part of the work, but perhaps that required more sophisticated machining than he was equipped to do.

(http://englreadingandwriting.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/800px-webley-fosbery_1837.jpg)
I googled "cam stud operated revolver", and found this. Of course, as an avid fan of the Ghost In The Shell universe, I was aware of semi-automatic revolvers since Togusa carries one in the manga and anime, but this looks like something straight out of a steampunk comic.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 17 Jun 2014, 17:12
Ah yes, the Webley-Fosbery Self-Cocking Automatic Revolver. Interesting piece. No where near my beloved Mateba Unica 6 (an affection I share with Togusa-san as it happens) but an interesting modification of the classic Webley service revolver. The two guns that really sealed the Webley's fate were Browning's 1911 and of course the Luger. Semi-Automatic pistols, especially combat reliable ones, were more then enough to put even neat tech revolvers the the Webley-Fosbery out of practice.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 17 Jun 2014, 23:55
What is the difference between a hammer and a striker?

A hammer is a rotating body mounted on an axle that is usually (but not always (http://fav.me/d4govhb)) separate from the firing pin.  A striker is a linear-sliding body that usually (but not always) has the firing pin mounted directly to its front.  Basically just a heavy firing pin that's driven by the mainspring directly.  (ETA: The mainspring being named so because, whether driving a striker or hammer, it's the spring that actually makes the gun fire.)  Illustrated example. (http://youtu.be/LxZq8jmR3wM)  Many if not most recent semiauto pistols (including the Glock) and the overwhelming majority of bolt-action rifle designs all use strikers instead of hammers.

The thing on the upper-rear of those clandestine shotguns could be the top of a hammer, but it reminds me more of the striker cocking handles on the sides of various 37mm flare guns.  It's also mounted kind of high to be a hammer, it would be at a mechanical disadvantage to driving the firing pin fast enough in that position.

It does seem odd though that the maker didn't include some kind of stud-and-cam type arrangement, having already done a substantial part of the work, but perhaps that required more sophisticated machining than he was equipped to do.
<snip>
I googled "cam stud operated revolver", and found this.

Yeah, English Webley-Fosbery, like GM said.  That's exactly what I was talking about when I said...

. . .but there's no cam track on the outside of the cylinder. . .

Another and, in this case, even more relevant example is the Pancor Jackhammer, an aborted prototype area denial weapon fully-automatic auto-revolver shotgun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancor_Jackhammer).

As for Ghost in the Shell, I've never read the manga, but in the first movie I don't remember it ever being stated definitively that Togusa's revolver was an auto-revolver per se, and to me it looked more like a MATEBA 2006M - which was a conventional double-action, rather than an auto-revolver, with the 6 o'clock barrel.  Sadly never made available in the states.  I don't remember what his gun looked like in the series.  Of course I don't think GitS did as good a job with guns in general as Cowboy Bebop (although fridge logic makes me wonder why the Bebop world has had almost no new gun designs in 70 years, I mean we've hit a technological plateau but not that badly,) but then, I didn't watch it for the guns, I watched it for the writing.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 24 Jun 2014, 14:45
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/06/daniel-zimmerman/p320-entry-gun-fetish/

Well. I can't argue. I am also very likely feeding my fetish with a brand new FAL before I head home in late July.

(http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/assault/as24/fal_imbel.jpg)

I will also be getting L1A1 style wood grips for her to pretty her up. I was going to do them myself... but I'm lazy.

http://www.silvercrescentindustries.com/product.php?line=FAL-L1A1

Torture testing an FAL
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 03 Jul 2014, 10:32
Tagging this thread for myself, as a new forum user I'm also a collector of pre-1960 American and Russian arms.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 03 Jul 2014, 11:33
Pics or shens new friend

In other news the guy selling the FAL is being a poopy head. Fucker got the check yesterday is cash in it today and says he'll try to ship on Saturday my only issue with that is it supposed to fucking money order so it's not like I can withdraw the funds into as good as cash ship my shit dick bag
Title: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 03 Jul 2014, 12:44
Removed.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 03 Jul 2014, 14:19
my only issue with that is it supposed to fucking money order so it's not like I can withdraw the funds into as good as cash ship my shit dick bag
I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say here.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 03 Jul 2014, 14:21
A postal money order in the United States is literally as good as cash. I sent the guy who is selling me this rifle a postal money order so if he has it is literally the same as if he had cash in hand and it is guaranteed by the United States government. The fucker is depositing it in the Bank today text and will try to get shipped by Saturday I supposed to shipping it today when he got cash in hand after cob yesterday and that is complete bullshit
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Nikolai on 03 Jul 2014, 17:54
Had my first range day (civilian) last weekend, splurged on a pair of new pistols; Springfield XDS-45 3.3, and a Beretta U22 Neos, 6in barrel.

Thoughts so far: The XDS kicks like a mule, but that was to be expected with a...what would this be considered? A micro-compact? It's literally the size and thickness of my hand. I haven't run any serious accuracy tests on it, just sort of breaking it in for now. It'll hit a 2in steel target at 15m reasonably well (I'm going to blame most of it on shooter error). The only thing I'm not super keen on is the slide release is quite stiff, and rather small. I'll see how it fares through the next couple hundred rounds, and be looking into an aftermarket replacement in the meantime.

The Beretta U22 is quite a joy to shoot. The 6in barrel makes it a tack-driver; I was scoring hits at 15m on my steel rolling target with the plate face nearly perpendicular to me. The slide operates similar to the Desert Eagle in that only the back half recoils. This allows the pistol to chew through even the lowest grade .22lr ammunition with minimal ejection issues. About 400 rounds in, American Eagle rounds were starting to not fully clear the port, I'm sure due to the combination of quality and build-up of carbon on the extractor. I'm debating going out and getting my Patriot on tomorrow, if it happens I'll take some pictures and let y'all know my further thoughts.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 26 Jul 2014, 07:58
I may sell my Johnson to finance a custom battle rifle build, but I'm on the fence, because it's irreplaceable if I do.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 26 Jul 2014, 08:15
I'd say save up for the custom build instead of selling the Johnson to finance it. You can ALWAYS get a battle rifle to your specs, rare arms that you will 100% never see again? Not so much.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 26 Jul 2014, 20:25
I may sell my Johnson
Phrasing
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 28 Jul 2014, 22:05
Got a mess of Polymer 80% lowers in today, Planning on getting most of them milled out this week if it's not too hot in the garage. My biggest concern at the moment is sourcing lower parts kits that are inexpensive, but still contain a halfway decent trigger. I've never built "on the cheap" before, so I don't have any personal experience with units from places like Palmetto and DPMS
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 29 Jul 2014, 07:19
I use a Palmetto lower parts kit on my AR and it's fantastic. I'd personally recommend them. Trigger is comparable to the ones I used in the service, so they aren't the best, but they'll do work for you.

Don't buy ANYTHING from DPMS if you can avoid it. I like Russian/Eastern Block guns so I appreciate a cheap weapon, but DPMS is a little too cheap for me if you get my meaning.

In other news I'm in the process of picking up a Mosin Nagant M91/30 from those fine people over at Cabela's. She's a 1941 issue Soviet rifle and is 100% matching.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 29 Jul 2014, 08:06
Thanks for the feedback GM. I've got a closet full of Mosins, I love anything in 54R.

Make sure you cook out all the dead Cosmo, check pin protusion, and pull the bolt apart for cleaning before you take her out. I've seen out of battery kabooms more than once from damaged / stuck firing pins. Buddy of mine has a hell of a scar.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 29 Jul 2014, 15:31
She's in pristine condition, no Cosmo even. The gun counter guy was mad cause if he'd seen it first he would have snagged her.

And now...

EVERY SURPLUS RIFLE WITH BOLT ACTION IS CHEAP SOME TIME IN HISTORY. MOSIN NAGANT RIFLE IS MOST NUMEROUS OF ALL INFANTRY RIFLE. IT IS RIFLE THAT WINS OCTOBER REVOLUTION. IT IS RIFLE THAT CARRIES INFANTRY OF ALLIED FORCES IN EUROPE THROUGH GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR. MOSIN NAGANT RIFLE SERVES FOR MORE THAN CENTURY, OLD STOLEN RUSSIAN RECEIVER IS STILL USE BY SNIPER OF FINNISH ARMY.

YOU CAN BE HAPPY WITH 40,000 ROUBLE RIFLE WITH NO HISTORY AND PLASTIC STOCK WHO KILLS PAPER TARGET AND DEER WITH NO WEAPON OR FIGHTING HEART.

I CAN BE HAPPY WITH 2,000 ROUBLE RIFLE THAT IS ARTIFACT OF MILITARY HISTORY AND KILLS TSARIST AND NAZI ALIKE.

JOY OF HAVING MOSIN NAGANT RIFLE IS JOY THAT MONEY CANNOT AFFORD.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 29 Jul 2014, 19:36
Well if this is your first one, I strongly suggest you get a cheap and simple Lee Classic Loader kit (like $30) so you can drum up some handloads. All you need is a desk and a hammer. People mock the Mosin, but with decent loads instead of surplus steelies, I can take a 91/30 with Mojo sights to 600 yards any day, and 800 on a nice quiet day. Just remember that unless it's a finnish hex, it'll probably want .311 bullets and not the standard 30 cal .308.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 29 Jul 2014, 21:08
I'll never mock the Mosin, the ghosts of Simo Hayha, Vasily Zaytsev and Lauri Turni would kill me in the night.

Speaking of, a fair and 100% balanced comparison between the glorious Nugget, the AR 15 and the AK.

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinHumor.htm

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t1.0-9/10348186_10152664417760815_7349830584068407958_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 31 Jul 2014, 11:00
Now that you're a disciple of the 54R, it's time to set up a cookie jar fund towards the big SVT
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 31 Jul 2014, 11:40
My next 54R is a PSL :P
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 31 Jul 2014, 20:53
my change jar is dedicated to obtaining a proper scope mount and scope for my .303 British Lee Enfield.

*preferably the version that doesn't require extensive grinding on the receiver.*

whatever is left might buy some ammo.  But I've got 500 rounds, so I'm good for a while
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 31 Jul 2014, 21:10
FWIW, you can use the same 174gr .311 SMK's in loading for the .303 that you would use to handload for a Mosin. I've had suprisingly good results out past 600 with them.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 31 Jul 2014, 21:16
"174gr .311 SMK's "  um. what?

~~~ bullet. 174 grain .311 caliber. (in a 303?)  ?SMK?

translate a bit please.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 31 Jul 2014, 21:25
Sorry, "Sierra Match King". It is a pretty common higher quality bullet for reloading, that carries a larger bearing surface than modern match load ammo, meaning it will stabilize well in the slower twist barrels of yesteryear. Because it is a slightly shorter bullet than long nosed, long tailed rounds, the same overall cartridge length will lend a slightly lower chamber pressure with a shorter 174gr bullet. This is handy to bear in mind as most enfield rifles should be kept under 42k, while modern .308 chambers run much higher in pressure.

The nomenclature for bullet diameter can be a little misleading, because of it's development over different centuries, in different countries. The .303 British, and the 7.62x54RR are both "30 caliber", but carry an actual diameter of .311 inches, compared to the modern 7.62x51 Nato and other 30 cals that use a more standardized .308 inch bullet.

Finnish barreled russians usually need to have their barrels slugged to determine diameter, as they range from actual .308 to .310

...and then if you really want to get ridiculous, we can start reloading for japanese wartime pistols :P
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 31 Jul 2014, 21:40
That would imply a desire to FIRE Japanese war time pistols, and I can't imagine why you'd want to do such a thing.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 31 Jul 2014, 21:42
That would imply a desire to FIRE Japanese war time pistols, and I can't imagine why you'd want to do such a thing.

I certainly never have, and over the years I've owned two Nambu's, along with custom formed ammo for em. Guess I never felt that lucky, I think they do their best work on the wall.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 02 Aug 2014, 10:04
So I got a nice big pile of ammo in from Cheaper Then Dirt today, I do hate the company with a passion, but they ship fast I'll give them that. Any one know where I can acquire PKM parts kits? I have the uncontrollable desire to make a 54R belt fed for the Motherland.

In more patriotic news, I really want this:
http://www.armslist.com/posts/3299099/denver-colorado-rifles-for-sale--browning-1919-israeli-parts--new-gun--free-shipping
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 02 Aug 2014, 11:19
Dunno who to go to for a PKM anymore. Last time I checked tho, some vendors were offering M1919 kits in 54R
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 02 Aug 2014, 11:48
I actually like that EVEN BETTER then a PKM. Sorta. Hmm. Both!

You know, when I have a couple grand laying around.

The new rifle I just got my hands on is in the spoiler, I think it's in excellent condition. Considering it was probably last used circa 1945...
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 02 Aug 2014, 21:06
:D  Greasy. Commie.  :D
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 03 Aug 2014, 04:44
$200. Battle rifle. Buying the best item for the best price is the heart of capitalism.

Some home gunsmithing videos for the Mosin Nagant:
Nagant Trigger job:

Making your Mosin Rock and Roll (aka solving that sticky action problem:

Glass Bedding an M91/30

Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 03 Aug 2014, 07:56
$200?? Man times have really changed
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 03 Aug 2014, 11:01
Yep, still affordable, but they aren't $80 any more.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 14 Aug 2014, 01:59
So I've been working on some design notes for a fully functioning (and by functioning I mean useable, not just actually fires) gun blade. First I've identified the ideal place style as the Celtic Falcata, this is a single edged, machete like combat weapon that is short and designed to be wielded with a single hand.

(http://www.helsinki.fi/~pjojala/Damascus_blade_forged_steel_sword_Falchata.jpg)

As you can see here the blade in this type of sword  curves after a certain point, this drop, while providing a brutal and efficent slashing weapon, also clears the barrel of any potential weapon mounted along the spine of the blade. The real issue as I see it is keeping both weapons comfortably functional within their own rights from  a care and maintenance stand point. A revolver based gun blade I see as being impractical, welding or merging the barrel of the firearm with the blade itself would A. impact accuracy by placing pressure on the barrel and B. make a barrel change a nightmare.

I then considering semi-automatic firearms. With the technical consideration that a longer barrel is likely better in this application and  that the receiver of the pistol is going to have to be married to the frame, most likely via welding, I think the logical choice is a long slide 1911 in .45 ACP, To retain ease of take down and accessability, "rails" and a slightly fuller on the back of the blade, as well as a groove to let the barrel bushing turn will be required, but they shouldn't affect performance or the bladed part of the weapon. If there's a fouling concern, a small metal insert could be made to bolt in covering the bushing fuller (I'd use small screws here, like pistol sight small)

Attachment of the blade to the reciever is a bit of a bug bear as it needs to be both functional, and look attractive, there isn't much "play" in a 1911 receiver, so except for a small on through the trigger guard, bolts aren't an option, which leaves some very careful and tricky welding. I'm not sure that will be enough to stand up to regular heavy use. With a normal hilt (on a well made sword) the tang of the blade extends well into the hilt providing it strength. With the attachment points so close to the "surface" I'd find certain types of impact on the blade worrying.

Keeping the blade light enough that the pistol still swings easily enough for one handed use is another point that can be countered with fullers (improperly refered to as blood grooves) and just generally keeping everything properly balanced to start with, though excessive fullering of the blade WILL weaken it.

This is just my initial thoughts on the matter, but I think these technical issues are all pretty simple to overcome with some applied research and maybe a few test shots and consulting with local swordsmiths.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: RedWolf4 on 14 Aug 2014, 03:21
Not gonna lie, that sounds like a pretty fricking cool project.

Now, not that I at all have any knowledge in this field (I fold crepes', not Damascus steel), it seems to my untrained mind that you'd want to forge the barrel and the blade as one piece to prevent as much barrel shift as you can.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 14 Aug 2014, 06:05
any recommendations for a shotgun scope/reflex sight for deer hunting?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 14 Aug 2014, 06:58

any recommendations for a shotgun scope/reflex sight for deer hunting?

Comes down to $$. If you're hunting deer in a shotgun state you already know 99% of your opportunities are gonna be inside 75yds. Any "quality" reflex will do.

My rule of thumb is that if it's under a hundred bucks it's crap, if it's over a thousand bucks it's Trijicon, and most things in the middle will do alright by you.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 14 Aug 2014, 08:57
Actually its almost the exact other way around! One of the easier ways to improve a rifle or pistol's accuracy is to free float the barrel. Anything exerting pressure or force can throw it off even slightly.

A lot of pistol barrels also move as part of their design, this could lead to issues with functionality in semi autos, and depending on how else the blade is mounted make take down (vital for maintenance) next to impossible.

The one design that would work for, a revolver, presents its own issues, especially when considering heavy use. The potential for the barrel to weaken the blade's back, the aforementioned accuracy issue, making a barrel change next to impossible, as well as the technical bug bear where I'm not sure how I could heat and forge the blade without warping the barrel in the first place... Theoretically I could forge the back edge of the blade with a curve and thickness appropriated that I could actually cut the barrel into the blade it self with  a barrel lathe... But I think that would have its own issues as well as being a massive amount of labor. Like all my exotic designs I want to make these saleable on a reasonable scale
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 14 Aug 2014, 16:50
I would say you could just forge a blade and bore it out as a Dan Wesson barrel facade and mount it to a Super Redhawk, but I don't want to give the impression that I at all condone this train of thought.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 14 Aug 2014, 20:00
any recommendations for a shotgun scope/reflex sight for deer hunting?

For a red dot I'd go with a Vortex SPARC, or anything from them. Great scopes, I have one on my AR.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 15 Aug 2014, 17:30

Huh. Well I'll be damned. That is a thing that exists.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Nikolai on 15 Aug 2014, 18:47
(https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t1.0-9/10603781_10154468919930514_7298161428668629076_n.jpg)

...So I just traded my Springfield XDm .40 and $160 for this.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 15 Aug 2014, 19:41
Get that rifle a little therapy and a nice new wood stock and it'll be perfect! Maybe reattach the frog sticker too
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 15 Aug 2014, 21:19
?wait?what?

You traded a .40 XDM and chipped in $160 to get a SKS in a Norinco sporter stock?

I highly recommend GUNBROKER next time: http://www.gunbroker.com/

oh. and never mind.  I hadn't realized how much the price difference is now days.   :psyduck: :-o
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 16 Aug 2014, 00:58
You gotta be kiddin, I've never paid over 200 for an sks.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 16 Aug 2014, 14:46
I think I paid $250 for my as-issued 1977 Type 56 back in... 2001?  That was my first centerfire rifle.  I miss it.   :cry:
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 16 Aug 2014, 18:25

I think I paid $250 for my as-issued 1977 Type 56 back in... 2001?  That was my first centerfire rifle.  I miss it.   :cry:

My first centerfire was an old Enfield, mkiii I think. Bought it from a dude named Beer in 1991 for $65.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 16 Aug 2014, 21:18
so I went to GREEN TOP sporting goods today: http://www.greentophuntfish.com/

Found a Mosin that had been restocked into one of those lovely ARCHANGEL AA9130 stocks.
http://www.archangelmanufacturing.com/2014/05/14/archangel-opfor-precision-rifle-stock-for-mosin-nagant-m1891-and-variants/

TRUST me, it is as beautiful and functional stock upgrade as you would EVER want.
JUST AWESOME.  Even had the 10 rd magazine + scope mounted + bayonet.
If I had the $450 they were asking... I would have brought it home today.

I wish they made Archangel stocks for my old Brit .303
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 16 Aug 2014, 22:26

I think I paid $250 for my as-issued 1977 Type 56 back in... 2001?  That was my first centerfire rifle.  I miss it.   :cry:

My first centerfire was an old Enfield, mkiii I think. Bought it from a dude named Beer in 1991 for $65.

My first centerfire was a junker WASR AK some ass had put in Tapco furniture. It was crappy even for a WASR, but I loved that piece of junk. Sold her during the great panic and used the proceeds to buy a M1 Garand from the CMP.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 16 Aug 2014, 22:35
I love me a garand. I can admire the feed mechanism endlessly. What beautiful engineering solution
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 20 Aug 2014, 15:35
http://www.e-sarcoinc.com/dumoulin-mauser-action.aspx

Looks like I have my Mauser actions for my Dangerous Game (.458 Win Mag) and Scout Rifle (.308) projects for school over the next year.

As previously mentioned the .458 is going to be a in a traditional walnut stock, prepared for that trip to Africa I'm never going to take, and moose and kodiaks in the meantime. I'm still figuring out a stock for the scout, I might carve a custom Dragunov style stock or just use a Hogue overmold drop in. The key is keeping it light, a proper scout rifle is under seven pounds, and ideally should be about 3 kilos (6.6 lbs) unloaded, with accessories, with a maximum possible weight of 3.5 kilos, a short barrel helps with that, but using the AI floor plate and magazine system to convert it to a magazine feed is going to add some of that back. Colonel Cooper also specified synthetic stocks in his original scout design, so the Hogue overmold may be the real winner here if I'm doing a "traditional" scout vs. a psuedoscout. I'm going to move the scope back a little bit as well, I'm not a big fan of the forward mounted look and it's just not as functional for me personally, I find putting too much weight forward of the action is a real down side for easy snap and movement.

Considering an M1A style receiver mount to keep the iron sights clear and the action clear.Maybe a red dot with a 2x magnifier built in mounted just forward of the action in a position to cowitness the iron sights.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 21 Aug 2014, 09:52
Ruger did a pretty decent job with Coopers specifications when they built the Gunsite Scout. I have one, and I'm far more impressed with it than one would imagine for a Ruger.

What made you decide to go with .458 as your dangerous game cartridge?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 21 Aug 2014, 10:17
I refuse to buy things from Ruger that AREN'T SAA clones, and even then I'd rather get an Uberti.

I went with .458 Win Mag because it's the biggest cartridge I can build a rifle on at my school, and if I'm going to make an Africa rifle, I am going to make THE Africa rifle.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 21 Aug 2014, 15:38
ahem.

big fan of RUGER here.

Ruger P89DC, 10/22, Security Six,  Redhawk and Mk II.
sadly, the Sec6, Redhawk and Mk II were liquidated over the years to pay bills.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 21 Aug 2014, 17:15
Whoops, I need to amend myself, the 10/22 is a sweet little gun.

I also just kinda don't like the gunsight scout in general... it is worth noting that the Gunsight Scout ISN'T a real scout, it's over the Colonel's original weight limits. Not by much, but still.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 21 Aug 2014, 22:30
The GP100 family is superior to anything S&W has ever built and I will defend that statement to the death.  I really want a Bowen GP-44 (http://www.bowenclassicarms.com/news/articles/GP_44_Redhawk.pdf) in .45 Colt with a 4" barrel.  The P-series is really nice too, I loved shooting the P89.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 22 Aug 2014, 00:49

The GP100 family is superior to anything S&amp;W has ever built and I will defend that statement to the death.  I really want a Bowen GP-44 (http://www.bowenclassicarms.com/news/articles/GP_44_Redhawk.pdf) in .45 Colt with a 4" barrel.  The P-series is really nice too, I loved shooting the P89.

You have clearly suffered a blow to the head. The Smith 686 is the finest revolver ever made by man.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 22 Aug 2014, 00:50

I refuse to buy things from Ruger that AREN'T SAA clones, and even then I'd rather get an Uberti.

I went with .458 Win Mag because it's the biggest cartridge I can build a rifle on at my school, and if I'm going to make an Africa rifle, I am going to make THE Africa rifle.

I'm always interested to hear folks choices, I am sort of a student of the African cartridges. I have gravitated to the .375H&amp;H over the years myself.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 22 Aug 2014, 00:57
The 10/22 is certainly the iconic american 22. It's gotten pretty junky over the last ten years, I dunno if you guys have seen the newest ones with the plastic triggers and peel-away latex paint all over the receiver.

The thing that really keeps them going is that they were so popular, for so long, the aftermarket is insane. You can improve literally every part of that rifle, and in fact a couple companies make clone receivers to start from.

I put a Kidd trigger and bolt in mine, threaded the barrel into the receiver, and topped it with an old eotech 512. Absolutely the most fun you can have for the money.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 22 Aug 2014, 01:03
Noxx I admit I haven't done a ton of research into Africa rifles, I just like the sheer amount of hurt the .458 is putting out, and there's also the fact that it's an artillery shell. I also have a friend who has one, and she talked it up enough to get it stuck in my head haha.
Title: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 22 Aug 2014, 01:22
It's a hell of a round, and definitely the big kid on the block among the classics. I can't shoot it well offhand, it gives me a vicious flinch. None of the big game rifles are a picnic, but that and the 505 Gibbs are just brutal.

Edit- forgot to add 460 weatherby to that list. Shot it once in college in NM. F that rifle. Right in the neck.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 22 Aug 2014, 02:50
I'm probably going to fit my .458 with a muzzle break eventually. That should help with felt recoil a little bit. The key is doing the break up in such a way so as to not brutalize the rifle's aesthetic.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 22 Aug 2014, 08:46
You have clearly suffered a blow to the head. The Smith 686 is the finest revolver ever made by man.

I will possibly consider conceding this point the second Smith & Wesson brings back the Triple-Lock mechanism.  Maybe.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 22 Aug 2014, 11:07
Actions purchased. Level up!

Mauser + 2

Soon shall come the forging, and the riddle of steel.

Edit:

Been considering a caliber change, I'm not set into this yet so it's not a big deal if I decide on a different cartridge. The .375 H&H Magnum seems pretty desirable with a nice stat line, even if it's "adequate" for most African dangerous game. Larry Potterfield over at Midway makes a pretty compelling argument about the round. Noxx, any wisdom you want to share on the round?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 22 Aug 2014, 19:32

The GP100 family is superior to anything S&amp;W has ever built and I will defend that statement to the death.  I really want a Bowen GP-44 (http://www.bowenclassicarms.com/news/articles/GP_44_Redhawk.pdf) in .45 Colt with a 4" barrel.  The P-series is really nice too, I loved shooting the P89.

You have clearly suffered a blow to the head. The Smith 686 is the finest revolver ever made by man.

you are clearly going senile.
the RUGER Sec6 is clearly one of the top three revolvers ever made.
The S&W 65 is superior in smooth trigger pull, but lacks in robustness.
and the RUGER GP100 is (im told) a perfect hybrid of the two.

but I'd put the S&W 686 in the top 5.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 22 Aug 2014, 21:53
Guess you might need to reevaluate your caliber choice.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/12/01/the-700-wtf-for-hunting-dinosaurs/
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 22 Aug 2014, 22:08
Not an option for me sadly.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 22 Aug 2014, 22:51
.700 WTF ??

sounds cool. put some nice wood around it.
and I still counldn't afford it.  :D
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 23 Aug 2014, 08:20
I wonder if anyone's designed a gun with a caliber of 1 or greater. My little research only found the .950 JDJ which is a little frustrating. Why not go that extra mm and change?

Also, holy shit, a single .950 JDJ round weighs half a pound.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 23 Aug 2014, 08:29
A 2 bore rifle has a bigger slug by about 1000 grains... not sure what it's dimensions are though... I seem to recall 4 bore rifles being 1 caliber.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 23 Aug 2014, 09:27
You can't fire the jdj pffhand
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 23 Aug 2014, 09:42
Noxx, I was still waiting to hear more about the .375 H&H
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 23 Aug 2014, 13:28
I wonder if anyone's designed a gun with a caliber of 1 or greater. My little research only found the .950 JDJ which is a little frustrating. Why not go that extra mm and change?

Also, holy shit, a single .950 JDJ round weighs half a pound.

take a 'gander' of a PUNT GUN.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punt_gun
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 24 Aug 2014, 09:37

Noxx, I was still waiting to hear more about the .375 H&amp;H

Sorry, I was out fishing off the coast, just now seeing your post.

My personal fondness for the 375 most stems from its great balance between power and shootability. Placed right, it'll kill anything on earth, and it's "relatively" mild to shoot, meaning it's easy to get accurate placement quickly. Because its an "all around" cartridge, you're free to spend a lot more on a platform.

Oh hell tagging for edit. I'm not typing all this on my phone in the bog. Brb.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 24 Aug 2014, 09:43
Hmmm. I do like an all arounder, though I think it detracts a bit from my stated intent of making a dangerous game rifle. Now Larry at Midway obviously disagrees, and hunts all of Africa, dangerous game and plains game with his .375 H&H Mag, but there's something about a field artillery piece disguised as a shoulder fired rifle...

Decisions decisions....
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 24 Aug 2014, 09:55
Hmmm. I do like an all arounder, though I think it detracts a bit from my stated intent of making a dangerous game rifle. Now Larry at Midway obviously disagrees, and hunts all of Africa, dangerous game and plains game with his .375 H&H Mag, but there's something about a field artillery piece disguised as a shoulder fired rifle...

Decisions decisions....

eh, I'll just finish here.

Don't be misled by the .375's more friendly characteristics. It is absolutely a dangerous game rifle, and that was the intent at it's design. Guys like Capstick and Karamojo Bell knocked down plenty of unfriendly fauna with them. The appeal is that you can also take one on a deer hunt and not require orthopedic surgery. More importantly really, is that it'll shoot in a very narrow range with all manner of bullet weights, where the larger bores start to vary dramatically, and you have to either pick a favorite weight and always use it, or take a lot of care to remember what you're loaded with before squeezing it off.

All of that is immaterial tho if you want to have a safari rifle just for the sake of having a safari rifle. Let's be realistic, as North Americans, the biggest scariest things we have going are Elk and Bear, and while either will settle your bill in short order, you don't need a howitzer to knock 'em down. Frankly you can drop anything on our continent with a Mosin. Given that, if it's a mostly "neat to have" thing, yeah by all means build an insane cannon of a rifle, just don't plan on toting all day

edit- if you get the chance to find a local with one, see if you can fire it before you commit to a caliber. A lot of people reevaluate after their first concussion induced nosebleed LOL
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 24 Aug 2014, 10:36
That's a fair enough point, though a local has confirmed you can hunt elk with a .458. It'll bisect the thing, but you can do it. I like .50 BMG rifles despite generally being too poor to afford one and haven't had an issue shooting them. I do want to hunt Africa one day, though as goals go it's on a subsection of bucket list labeled "This Would Be Cool, but only once everything else is done and you have a ton of money left over somehow"

Also Noxx, if you think Elk or Bear are the scariest things on the North American continent I need to take you to Alaska and introduce you to the god's own hate tank, moose, and the Alaskan bear variants of course, which are where the term "pain train" comes from, because you're either in dead or in pain, and in experienced coroner will think you got hit by a freight train at high speeds.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 24 Aug 2014, 15:29
I dunno why Moose didn't pop into my head, but yeah, same point tho
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 24 Aug 2014, 18:29

The GP100 family is superior to anything S&amp;W has ever built and I will defend that statement to the death.  I really want a Bowen GP-44 (http://www.bowenclassicarms.com/news/articles/GP_44_Redhawk.pdf) in .45 Colt with a 4" barrel.  The P-series is really nice too, I loved shooting the P89.

You have clearly suffered a blow to the head. The Smith 686 is the finest revolver ever made by man.

you are clearly going senile.
the RUGER Sec6 is clearly one of the top three revolvers ever made.
The S&W 65 is superior in smooth trigger pull, but lacks in robustness.
and the RUGER GP100 is (im told) a perfect hybrid of the two.

but I'd put the S&W 686 in the top 5.

Almost every hand-ejector revolver I've ever handled that had more than a couple thousand rounds through it, regardless of how carefully it was handled, had a huge amount of slop between the yoke/crane and the frame.  This causes timing and alignment issues, which are bad juju.  This is my number one pet peeve with revolvers.

Putting a detent at the very front end of the ejector rod doesn't cut it, you have to lock the yoke to the frame directly.  A lot of manufacturers are taking the easy way out now by putting a ball detent somewhere on the yoke, as in the Smith X-frames, but that doesn't release when you press the cylinder release tab.  That means having to apply more force to pop the cylinder out, potentially warping the yoke like the dumbasses that flip their revolvers open/closed with their wrist.  The dimple in the frame is also more likely to wear out that way.

Most hand-ejectors only lock at the rear of the cylinder and the front of the ejector rod, as with nearly all S&W and Taurus revolvers, sometimes with a yoke ball detent either custom installed or from the factory.  Colt revolvers lock only at the rear of the cylinder which is even shittier.  The S&W X-frame and Ghisoni's youngest grandchild, the Chiappa Rhino, lock only at the rear of the cylinder and have a ball detent on the yoke/crane.  Even the Ruger Security Six series and the coveted German Korth revolvers (for those with more dollars than sense) use the ejector rod lockup like a standard S&W.  Most Dan Wesson revolvers lock only on the yoke, with the release in front of the cylinder.

Only two revolver families have been made with positive mechanical locks at both the rear of the cylinder and on the yoke/crane.  One is the S&W .44 Hand Ejector First Model New Century, aka the Triple-Lock, the first N-frame Smith; .44 Special, won't handle +P loads, and commands ridiculous collector prices these days.  Only made from 1908 to 1915, after which S&W buried the Triple-Lock mechanism forever more (because at the time no one wanted to pay more for the complex mechanism.)  The other is every Ruger hand-ejector from the Redhawk onward.*  The Redhawk cylinder design holds the cylinder on the crane barrel using a pair of ball bearings rather than simply trapping the cylinder between crane and a tab on the frame, and the ejector rod is non-rotating.  The GP100 is the result of applying the Redhawk cylinder system to the Security Six frame, along with a Dan Wesson style spike grip frame, and a redesign of the trigger pack to make fine-tuning easier and reduce the occurrence of light-strike missfires compared to the Security Six/Redhawk trigger design.  (The Security Six and Redhawk used a single spring as both the mainspring and trigger spring - this turned out to be not a great idea, and the GP100 uses two separate springs.)  S&W revolvers, especially Performance Center offerings, tend to have better triggers out of the factory, but any GP-family Ruger can be hand-tuned to be just as nice as any S&W.

Ruger revolvers have also always been a bit overbuilt compared to other options; the SP-101 (five-shot .357, six-shot .32, eight-shot .22) is somewhere in between a J-frame and a K-frame, the GP100 (six-shot .357, seven-shot .32) is somewhere in between an L-frame and an N-frame, and the Redhawk/Super Redhawk (six-shot .44 or .475) is not an N-frame analogue so much as it is a shortened X-frame analogue before the X-frame was even a thing.  Being so overbuilt makes them a bit heavier on the draw than a comparable S&W but in return they are much more resistant to abuse and have more options for rechambering.  Bowen Classic Arms regularly converts Redhawks to five-shot .500 Linebaugh platforms with no problem.  The old six-shot .357 Magnum Redhawk (no really, this is a thing (http://i.imgur.com/B2ODScH.jpg)) has about the thickest cylinder walls I have ever seen and is considered a handloader's paradise.

The cherry on top of all of this is that S&W and Colt say, more or less, "Keep your plebian hands out of the inner workings of your our gun, don't even try to open the frame or you'll just wreck it.  Be a good little child and bring it in to a company-trained armorer for fine tuning or repair."  Whilst Ruger has said since the Security Six days, "Here, have a revolver that breaks down for maintenance about the same way as an SKS rifle."

Smiths are okay, but if I'm going to spend money on a revolver, it's going to be a Ruger, full stop.  My only complaint is that they haven't built a Redhawk-size revolver with the GP/Super Redhawk grip and trigger but the classic Redhawk style frame/barrel, as the Super Redhawk bull-nose frame (http://www.ruger.com/products/superRedhawk/images/index.jpg) is kind of ungainly.  Fortunately, as I linked to before, Bowen has started modifying Super Redhawk Alaskans into exactly this (http://i.imgur.com/u8CyPWx.jpg).  As a five-shot .500 Linebaugh it's only slightly less powerful than a .500 Magnum while being much handier and less obnoxiously huge.

*I'm not counting the LCR in this statement.

::deep breaths::

...right then.  For no particular reason, I want to rebarrel a Ruger No.1 falling block for .577 Snider.  Just because.  I think it'd be a fun boulder-thrower to shoot and reload for without being as, um... belligerent as a .577 Nitro Express.  Contrary to popular belief I am not a recoil junky.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 24 Aug 2014, 20:36
I have passed my trebuchet rifle phase, and am working on becoming a velocity junky.

Nice write up btw.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 24 Aug 2014, 21:17
I like trebuchet rifles AND I like velocity... grrr


Decisions decisions. The receivers I've purchased can more then handle either round, hmmm... bout a month left to decide one way or another.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 25 Aug 2014, 01:46
I like trebuchet rifles AND I like velocity... grrr

That's what the PTRS-41 is for.  14.5x114mm, or as I prefer to call it, .577 Degtyarov Express.

All .577 cartridges are actually .585 caliber, but .577 has a nice ring to it.

Nice write up btw.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 25 Aug 2014, 02:04
I would bet a PTRS-41 costs more then a brand new Barrett WITH Leupold glass.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 25 Aug 2014, 21:02
CSM: great read.
thanks for the back up.
I've carried my P89DC for duty from 1994-2003.
Never, ever worried about its functionality.
I've even taken it to the range and did the whole "drop them in a mud puddle & see whose jams LAST"
my P89 drank  the milkshakes of S&W, Glock, Taurus, SigSauer and Beretta.




*the Colt 1911 was given pass on this test out of pure respect. (and it was the Chief's sidearm)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 25 Aug 2014, 21:20
Berettas jam fresh out of the box. So is that really surprising?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 25 Aug 2014, 21:23
...as I tend to avoid them like ebola, I hadn't noticed.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 25 Aug 2014, 22:11
That's not fair. The Beretta is a perfectly serviceable hand grenade.

“You’re not a S.E.A.L. ‘till you have eaten Italian steel…” Anonymous
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 25 Aug 2014, 22:13
Am I the seriously only person who has had a positive experience with the M9?  With several 92-series pistols actually...
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 26 Aug 2014, 09:17
Yes. I'm more likely to believe in unicorns and pegasus then I am in a Beretta 92 series handgun that functions better then a Kahr.
Title: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 26 Aug 2014, 09:45
Am I the seriously only person who has had a positive experience with the M9?  With several 92-series pistols actually...

You might be, I've had nothing but trouble with them since I was old enough to shoot one.

Most of my life I've done best with Sig P220's and the venerable 1911

The P98 might be as reliable as the dawn, but I'll never know, as soon as I pick one up I put it right down. My hands just don't like em.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 26 Aug 2014, 11:56
All three 92F/FSs I've fired ran flawlessly right out of the box.  I also found them pleasant to shoot, though I still like the Ruger P85/89 better.  Then everybody likes to bring up the slide breakage thing, neglecting that that happened on a badly abused 92 with a VERY high round count and after swallowing a lot of +P ammo, which it is not rated for.  (Neither is the BHP, so I don't see that as a big deal.)

ETA: I believe the plural of pegasus is pegasii.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 26 Aug 2014, 13:10
I should point out that while the autos I've listed have always done well, my carry gun that I rely on to absolutely never fail no matter what, is a Smith 642
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 26 Aug 2014, 18:34
ETA: I believe the plural of pegasus is pegasii.
You believe wrong. It's pegasi. -us becomes -i*, so only -ius becomes -ii.

*Sometimes -us becomes -uses, like viruses. Most -us nouns are 2nd declension. Latin has five declensions, but fourth and fifth declension nouns are much less common. Virus is a fourth declension noun.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 26 Aug 2014, 20:44
I've fired P85s... they FEEL like the prototypes they are.
My P89 and its variant brothers are just Kalashinkov-style rugged simple.

As for Sigs. they're ok... but I dislike the magazine release safety.
Smith 642.  Airweight/snubby?
good gun.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 26 Aug 2014, 21:23
ETA: I believe the plural of pegasus is pegasii.
You believe wrong. It's pegasi. -us becomes -i*, so only -ius becomes -ii.

*Sometimes -us becomes -uses, like viruses. Most -us nouns are 2nd declension. Latin has five declensions, but fourth and fifth declension nouns are much less common. Virus is a fourth declension noun.

The plural of virus isn't virii?  I've been lied to all these years... I don't even know what to believe anymore!   :psyduck:
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 26 Aug 2014, 21:40
Why would it be virii? Viri, maybe, but virii makes no sense!
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 27 Aug 2014, 04:35
Because I always thought -us pluralized to -ii.  I am no expert on Latin and most of what I "know" is probably the result of hearsay.  Then again, for me, that seems to apply to most things that aren't guns.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 27 Aug 2014, 13:24
No worries, I was a classics major and it rarely comes in handy :roll:

Btw, -is pluralizes to -es. So using Latin the plural of penis would be penes.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 29 Aug 2014, 06:37
Pretty well decided that my next pistol project is a 1911 in .460 Rowland.  Sure, you don't really need 460, but think of having one sidearm than can eat 4 calibers, 45acp, 45 super, 451D, and 460.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 29 Aug 2014, 11:22
+10 points for familiarity with the .451 Detonics.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 29 Aug 2014, 12:17
How stupid would I be to do a 1911 Long Slide in .454 Casull?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 29 Aug 2014, 14:21
You could probably do it on an LAR Grizzly .50 AE frame.  I won't comment on the stupidity, but the entire concept of a .454 Casull autoloader makes me gag because it has been run into the ground by Hellsing fanboys.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 29 Aug 2014, 14:29
*wince* That's a fair point.

I like that round too T_T
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 29 Aug 2014, 15:07
Stuff it into a Wildey instead; I think the fundamentally different profile will ease that pain.  Not to mention the benefit of a manually adjustable gas system when you're dealing with such an esoteric and somewhat experimental project.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 29 Aug 2014, 15:18
If you're just chasing the biggest hole, pretty sure they're still making .50 GI
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Akima on 29 Aug 2014, 16:25
Dropping the lurk-cloak... Speaking of wrist-breakers, a little while ago I was googling research for a hard-SF story* that I'm sporadically working on, and found this (http://www.serbu.com/legacy/shorty.htm). A twelve-bore that's only 420mm long...

*My idea is that shotguns would be less likely to puncture pressurised environments than weapons firing higher-velocity projectiles. Was I inspired by the movie "Outland (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez2XfvN8XSc)"? Maaaybe...
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 29 Aug 2014, 16:39
Yep, that's a thing.  A worrying number of my friends want them, I find them just too ridiculous.  I momentarily considered getting the 20 gauge version but honestly I'd rather have a Denny's Auto & Burglar (http://i49.tinypic.com/2dbmofr.jpg) (also 20 gauge.)

And yes, that's a valid consideration.  See also: Powdered metal bullets that disintegrate on impact with hard surfaces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frangibility#Bullets).

Noxx: It has nothing to do with making the biggest hole, or even hitting the hardest.  It has to do with building a .454 Casull autoloader because we can.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 29 Aug 2014, 16:56
CSM is correct if I just wanted to hit hard, I can buy a semi-auto M2.

That super shorty's cute Akima, basically an Ithaca Stakeout. For gunfights in pressurized environments I'd look into training data for U.S. Air Marshals if you can find any. I believe they carry handguns with downloaded ammunition.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Akima on 29 Aug 2014, 17:35
I momentarily considered getting the 20 gauge version but honestly I'd rather have a Denny's Auto & Burglar (http://i49.tinypic.com/2dbmofr.jpg) (also 20 gauge.)
That super-short pump-action can only hold three cartridges; two in the magazine and one in the chamber (which would leave the weapon cocked and relying in a safety-catch, wouldn't it?) so I too thought about whether a traditional double-barrel would be simpler (and with external hammers safer?). Operating and reloading in heavy gloves (http://images.spaceref.com/news/2009/oos128e007695.jpg) might be a consideration too.

It has to do with building a .454 Casull autoloader because we can.
This is an impulse I understand fully. Yes, I did get some practical advantages out of putting a fancy internal-gear hub in my bicycle, but mainly I did it because I could. Yes, the cost of the hub would have bought an entire, perfectly satisfactory bicycle, and I could have obtained much the same gear range more cheaply, but I did it because I wanted to.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 29 Aug 2014, 22:08
for my sci-fi writing, one of my characters carries on his Mecha, a double bronzed barrelled 70mm shotgun.
The 70mm shotshell contains fifteen, 27mm, pellets; which are great for close range infantry swarms or hover tanks.

I figured it is in rough scale to me carrying around a 10ga. shotgun.

*you're free to use the idea*

Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 30 Aug 2014, 01:39
That super-short pump-action can only hold three cartridges; two in the magazine and one in the chamber (which would leave the weapon cocked and relying in a safety-catch, wouldn't it?) so I too thought about whether a traditional double-barrel would be simpler (and with external hammers safer?). Operating and reloading in heavy gloves (http://images.spaceref.com/news/2009/oos128e007695.jpg) might be a consideration too.

Sort of a complicated question, but I'm going with no.  Plenty of people in all walks of gun-toting-for-business life carry rifles and shotguns and 1911s with the chamber loaded and the safety on.  The thing about external hammers is that if you cock it, and then change your mind about shooting and decide you don't want it cocked anymore, you have to hold the hammer back with your thumb, pull the trigger, and slowly lower the hammer to the decocked (or half-cocked) position.  If your thumb slips, well...

The gun community as a whole is very divided on whether or not this is acceptable behavior.  Personally I fall squarely into the camp that does not approve, on the logic that it's a violation of basic safety rules to pull the trigger on a loaded gun without intention to fire it.  A single-action semiautomatic firearm should - in my belief - never be decocked on a loaded chamber, since there's generally no way to get a round into the chamber without cocking the gun, and there's no way to decock the gun without pulling the trigger - therefor if the gun is in that state, you violated the rules to get it into that state.  Unfortunately it's pretty much unavoidable with revolvers.

Also, whether or not it's really safe to have the hammer down on a loaded chamber - as in, like, drop-safe - varies a lot from gun to gun; older designs are usually more drop-induced slamfire prone than newer designs.  Of course, most newer designs are either double-action (as a refresher: meaning you can pull the trigger to fire the gun even if the hammer is decocked) and have safe-decocking levers to lower the hammer without pulling the trigger - ie without disabling the internal hammer block and firing pin lock safeties - or are double-action only, the firing mechanism never being cocked until you pull the trigger.

Autoloading rifles and pump shotguns are near-universally single-action with the hammers hidden inside the gun, so there's no way to decock them anyway, and you keep the safety on if the chamber is loaded (condition 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper#The_Modern_Technique).)  Some people aren't comfortable with this and, under the logic that the more work you have to put into readying the gun to fire the safer it is, leave the chamber unloaded (condition 3.)  Something you need to take into consideration with this is, if a threat arises, how urgently will you need the gun ready - ie, will you have enough time to cycle the action to chamber a round, or do you only expect to have enough time to take the safety off (or cock the hammer, as it were)?

::deep breaths::

As for the double barrel vs. the Serbu snubnose pump, well... I guess I'll do it like this:

Sawed-Off Double Barrel
Pros:
• If "hammerless" (actually has hidden internal hammers,) It can be readied to fire both shots one-handed*
• If hammered, can be carried in condition 2 if so desired
• If hammered and you cock it, then change your mind and decide to decock it, the action can be opened to move the cartridges away from the firing pins, allowing you to thumb-decock it without worrying about slipping and accidentally firing
• Hammered doubles usually still have manual safety levers, so you can still carry in condition 1 if so desired
• Hammerless doubles automatically cock when you open the action to reload

Cons:
• Hammered doubles are slow and awkward to thumb-cock, and trying to do it one-handed is a bad idea (this I know from experience/practice with my Zhong Zhou** coach gun)
• Hammerless doubles are automatically cocked when you open the action to reload, which means it take a lot more force to open the action after firing; doubly so (lawl) with super short barrel like we're talking about here since you don't have as much leverage and gravity on your side (my hammerless 73cm barreled Baikal was very easy to open)
• Opening the action to reload only one barrel takes the other barrel out of the ready-to-fire state, momentarily leaving you at a disadvantage
• Most side-by-side doubles require you to pull the fired shells out of the chamber manually when reloading
• Hammered doubles are somewhat prone to internal damage and uncontrolled discharge if dropped hammers-first on a hard surface with sufficient force; hammerless guns aren't

Super Shorty Pump
Pros:
• One extra shot over the double if you're willing to carry in condition 1
• First shot can be readied to fire one-handed*
• Loading cartridges into the magazine doesn't take the chambered round out of ready-to-fire state, so reloading can be interrupted by firing (this is a benefit of pump shotguns in general)
• The vertical foregrip makes recoil much easier to control if you're using both hands, compared to the double

Cons:
• Subsequent shots require both hands to cycle the action
• You have to extend the foregrip before you can cycle the action - the foregrip must be folded up for the gun to fit into the thigh holster
• Cannot be carried condition 2 if so desired
• Cannot be readied to fire with one hand if carried in condition 3, and carrying condition 3 doesn't give you the extra shot on the initial draw vs. the double barrel

*Whether or not firing one of these with one hand is actually a good idea I leave as an exercise for the audience.

**What's the Hanzi/translation for Zhong Zhou Machine Works?  I've been curious about that.


Between the two I think I'd go with the pump action if you're talking about carrying aboard a spacecraft.  All things considered I'd rather have a SIG Sauer P226 with a sound suppressor and frangible powdered-metal bullets.  Semiauto, much larger magazine capacity, more controllable recoil, and... erm... firing a gun in a tightly enclosed space with metal walls and no sound dampening is bad for your eardrums, especially when you're talking about a 12 gauge shotgun with a 16.5cm barrel.  The noise and flash from that is going to hurt.  The muzzle blast/flash would probably constitute a serious fire hazard as well.

Also, firearms realism counseling for authors of fiction is something I live for.  Feel free to ask me questions any time, if you can tolerate my long-winded thoroughly detailed answers.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 30 Aug 2014, 03:55
I've been carrying a 1911 in condition 1 since I got my first 1911... no negligent discharges here. Especially in the 1911 platform, condition 1 carry is perfectly safe. I've never had an issue with a round chambered in a Rem 870 or Mossberg 500 before either... or any of my rifles for that matter, and when you're training/patrolling, you're usually condition one in the military as well, and condition four (chamber empty, bolt forward, no magazine inserted, weapon on safe) inside the wire. I find Israeli carry* is only acceptable for certain firearms and specific situations.

*Condition 3 is what most single action weapons are carried in besides condition one, as CSM pointed out it's extremely unsafe in most cases to put a  single action firearm in condition 2, condition three is a magazine inserted, but with the chamber empty, requiring you to cycle the action/slide to put a round in the chamber. It adds roughly 2 seconds to my 5 count presentation (the standard method of drawing from concealment into a shooting stance and firing) which doesn't sound like much, but in a gun fight two seconds is a loooooooong time.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 30 Aug 2014, 11:41
I've always carried single action in C1. The only difference I have from norm is that I've never felt comfortable decocking a 1911, and I routinely safe the gun by dropping the mag and cycling out, therefore the trigger is never involved.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Akima on 31 Aug 2014, 17:12
Also, firearms realism counseling for authors of fiction is something I live for.  Feel free to ask me questions any time, if you can tolerate my long-winded thoroughly detailed answers.
First of all, thank you so much for your detailed comments, which gave me a lot to think about. I had especially not considered the noise and muzzle-flash issues.
Quote
What's the Hanzi/translation for Zhong Zhou Machine Works?  I've been curious about that.
Generally, it is tricky and uncertain to go from "flattened" (no tone marks) pinyin romanization to Chinese characters. Zhongzhou (pronounced roughly JongJoe, with "hard" Js as in jungle, by the way) could be 忠州 or 中轴 or 中州 you see. The capital city of Henan province is Zhengzhou (郑州 pron. JungJoe) which is another possibility if the romanization is imperfect. I am guessing that the most likely option is 中州 which means "central state". "machine works" would be 机械厂 or "machinery factory". I searched on Google and Baidu for 中州机械厂 (Zhōngzhōujīxièchǎng) and found a company of that name operating in Zhengzhou City, but it seems to manufacture mining and coal-processing machinery, so I'm not sure if it is the right firm.

More generally, what is the feeling of the members here about my silly questions? They are not strictly about gunsmithing, after all.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 31 Aug 2014, 17:44
You are asking technical questions that are not political.
I don't mind answering questions, if I can answer them of personal knowledge or experience.

Your question about employing a shotgun with heavy gloves....
both break action dbl. barrel and pump action shottys have their benefits and drawbacks.
at least, standard guns would.
I would HOPE, that with foreknowledge of seeing action while using heavy gloves; the users or their military superiors would have their guns' action mechanisms slightly modified to enhance usage while gloved.

examples:
enlarged trigger guards and triggers
(http://www.zdspb.com/media/skrnxt/pl/shocktech3.JPG)
*yes, it is a paintball marker; but it gets the point across*

pistol grip for pump shotgun foregrip
(http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/12301129/aview/R8-FOREND_GRIP_1.jpg)

enlarged lever for break action dbl. barrel shotty.
(http://www.collectorebooks.com/gregg01/shotgun2/DSC05372.jpg)

which also an example why I do NOT like external hammers on a shotgun
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 31 Aug 2014, 17:46
Most of your questions have involved mechanics of firearms or their operation, everything outside of that you've PMed about to my knowledge, like when you asked me about military HUDs in fighters. So I'd deem them on topic, especially given the knowledge base in this thread.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 31 Aug 2014, 19:00

Also, firearms realism counseling for authors of fiction is something I live for.  Feel free to ask me questions any time, if you can tolerate my long-winded thoroughly detailed answers.
More generally, what is the feeling of the members here about my silly questions? They are not strictly about gunsmithing, after all.

Not to worry, folks like us are reservoirs of esoteric knowledge we rarely get to share. We're thrilled.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 31 Aug 2014, 22:31
Noxx don't tell her that out right... we lose cool points that way!
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 31 Aug 2014, 23:56
You are asking technical questions that are not political.

This...

Not to worry, folks like us are reservoirs of esoteric knowledge we rarely get to share. We're thrilled.

...and also this.

Noxx don't tell her that out right... we lose cool points that way!

I'm pretty sure I didn't have any to begin with.

Most of your questions have involved mechanics of firearms or their operation, everything outside of that you've PMed about to my knowledge, like when you asked me about military HUDs in fighters.

How come you get these questions and I don't?    :-\
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 01 Sep 2014, 05:42
Because I've used said equipment in a real world setting and was thus the most obvious person to ask would be my guess.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 01 Sep 2014, 08:24
The day someone walks up to me IRL and says "I'm genuinely interested, could you explain the difference between recoil and blowback actions?", I will literally soil myself with glee.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 01 Sep 2014, 11:00
well, that explains why you wear Depends to NRA conventions.....



:D LuLz :D
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 01 Sep 2014, 15:44
paintball marker
What's the deal with people calling them paintball markers instead of paintball guns? Is this a relatively new thing?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 01 Sep 2014, 17:02
paintball marker
What's the deal with people calling them paintball markers instead of paintball guns? Is this a relatively new thing?

Been that way for twenty years AFAIK
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 01 Sep 2014, 18:29
I'll still trip and call 'em paint gunz, but it is VERY frowned upon in the sport.
I've a Paintball magazine from 1991-2? that emphasizes the usage of Marker v. Gun to users.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 02 Sep 2014, 15:14
Wait, it is? Why?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Akima on 02 Sep 2014, 15:47
I was told, at a corporate team-building paintball session I attended, that "markers" is the preferred term because back in the 1970's the first marker guns and pellets were designed and produced for marking trees and cattle in the forestry and ranching industries.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 02 Sep 2014, 16:05
Right, but that's not what they're used for in paintball...they're used for shooting people.

Am I missing something?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 02 Sep 2014, 18:05
guns are firearms/air rifles intended for target shooting and destroying things.

paintball markers are made for sport (and industrial usage)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 02 Sep 2014, 18:11
You still shoot with them, do you not?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 02 Sep 2014, 18:23
Yes. we do shoot them.
admittedly, the differentiation is emphasized to lessen negative connotations for the sport.
it is political.

*Subject Change*

so GM: what do you recommend for a Scope mount on a STEVENS Model 67 ?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 02 Sep 2014, 21:18

I was told, at a corporate team-building paintball session I attended, that "markers" is the preferred term because back in the 1970's the first marker guns and pellets were designed and produced for marking trees and cattle in the forestry and ranching industries.

Correct
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 02 Sep 2014, 21:21
Model 67's a pump shotgun right? Depends. What are you putting on there? Tapping, drilling and putting a small sight rail down isn't too hard if you want options, but if you're going to just have one scope, you can do it old school and just mount the rings to it. I'd need to see how it ejects before I really say anything more and start looking at positioning. The nice thing about putting a full length rail on the receiver is you'll be able to adjust your scope or red dot to suit your eye relief.  The key is making sure it doesn't interfere in the order of operations or weaken the receiver.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 05 Sep 2014, 16:59
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10626830_10152354239367469_371859153116933666_n.jpg?oh=baa65521183f60b6f8a6db7ddc51d084&oe=5494D88A&__gda__=1420105696_08836f971109f0dc840eb705002429cd)

Mauser update. Heresy or hot?


(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10580064_10152758483485815_2233074898321526415_n.jpg?oh=b4d7515c69ff878c9d35b28dec3189a9&oe=549D52C1&__gda__=1415286974_e2c0b9647d8295c2490f7b4cc4d25bb2)

And look what I got today!
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Orkboy on 05 Sep 2014, 17:02
You know, GM, if you gave that Mauser a shorter barrel it would look a lot like a 40k bolt pistol, ignoring the disproportional "heroic scaling" thing that Games Workshop does.

(http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120929090255/warhammer40k/images/c/c1/Umbra-Magnus_Bolt_Pistol_Carcharodons.jpg)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 05 Sep 2014, 17:44
Little bit yeah. Bit low caliber for a 40k Bolt pistol as evidenced by that tiny magazine.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Orkboy on 05 Sep 2014, 18:11
Well, bolt pistols fire micro-rockets, so I guess the tiny rocket engines would make for very long cartridges. 
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 05 Sep 2014, 21:29
Not Heresy!

I want one!

source! source!
... even tho I can't afford it....

y' think.... 10mm Hydrashock in +P ?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 05 Sep 2014, 23:19
I can't find the source. Or I'd be buying one on credit or some shit.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Akima on 07 Sep 2014, 19:14
Mauser update. Heresy or hot?
Zhu Xijuan wants one! For the Emperor Party! Death to Heretics Landlords! <=== W1.949K!  :wink:
(https://i.imgur.com/EUwKs9y.jpg)
Our people produced a Broomhandle clone in .45 after all, the Shanxi Type 17. Nostalgia in China for a weapon that featured so prominently in the Civil War and our national liberation struggle against Japan, might explain why the top image-search hits I got for this were all Chinese web sites (or Google is filtering my results for obvious reasons).

As for rocket-guns there was Gyrojet:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Gyrogroup.jpg)

They had a rather fascinatingly elegant mechanism. The internal hammer struck the rocket projectile on the nose, driving it back against a fixed firing-pin, which ignited the solid propellant. Then, as the rocket fired, it pushed the hammer down and forward to reengage with the sear. The barrel is smooth-bore; the rocket was spun by its angled exhaust jets, hence "gyro-jet". Did I read this up in connection with combat in low gravity? Maaaybe...

On trigger-mechanisms, here's one from the Han Dynasy (206BC–220AD). Note the clever use of leverage to ensure a light, clean release for a powerful bow.
(http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llia0fw2sj1qacehho1_500.jpg)
Edit: I should point out, since it is important, but not obvious from the drawings above, that the trigger and the tumbler (the hook that actually holds the bow-string) share the same pivot pin, but move independently. The elevation scale protruding above the stock is part of the tumbler, not the trigger.

Edit: Fixed or removed broken image links.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Caspian Sea Monster on 08 Sep 2014, 01:21
The Gyrojet never caught on as a weapon due to very poor muzzle energy (on principle) and poor accuracy (because of badly-made rockets,)* but there was a Gyrojet flare gun used by US forces in Vietnam.  The sustained propulsion of the projectile meant it could punch through and climb out of jungle canopy better than a ballistic flare.  I want one, but then I should probably not be allowed to have one considering my track record with flare guns.

*Emoroffle would like me to add that one of the other reasons the Gyrojet never caught on was because of a lack of Mister Torgue pitching the product.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 08 Sep 2014, 03:38
Mauser update. Heresy or hot?
Zhu Xijuan wants one! For the Emperor Party! Death to Heretics Landlords! <=== W1.949K!  :wink:
(http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/0/01/TRDW-M-C96-01.jpg/400px-TRDW-M-C96-01.jpg)
Our people produced a Broomhandle clone in .45 after all, the Shanxi Type 17. Nostalgia in China for a weapon that featured so prominently in the Civil War and our national liberation struggle against Japan, might explain why the top image-search hits I got for this were all Chinese web sites (or Google is filtering my results for obvious reasons).

I have been actively looking for a Shanxi Type 17 since you first mentioned them to me. Shockingly they're kinda rare in the U.S. I've been able to ascertain a lot of about 350 were imported at one point, and one of those surfaced on a website with an asking price of just shy of $6000. While I wouldn't mind owning a rare historical piece, if I'm dropping that kind of money on a gun I need to get my Mateba Unica 6 first.

Once I have my manufacturing permit a "Modern" Mauser, a classic Mauser and a Type 17 clone would probably be worthy projects that might even manage to make me a little money if I can get the costs vaguely reasonable. (Probably not, but I can investigate at least)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 08 Sep 2014, 09:55
If you've got 6K to blow on a war collectors piece and you don't get a Johnson I will send a courier to deliver an express gibbslap.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 08 Sep 2014, 16:00
I wish I had 6k to blow on anything.

While I'm at school I qualify for a pro discount (22% better then a dealer discount) on Springfield Armory weapons. I can buy one of each type of XD series, one 1911, and one M1A. A fully loaded M1A with walnut stock clocks in at 1190. Roughly $800 less then retail. A 1911 Range Officer (which is SA's "race gun" 1911 with all the bells and whistles you could fantasize about) will just you about $570 vs. $960 retail.

Soooooo. I'mma buy me some guns.

Some more guns any way. I also had my hand forced on my caliber debate for my project rifle. The school is no longer letting us do .375 H&H Magnum, So .458 Win Mag it is!
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 10 Sep 2014, 08:15
Nice, I got my M1A through the same program, makes it a lot more reasonable.

Just found a "white bag" Garand, unfired since it's Korean War era restoration, as issued in its white canvas bag.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 10 Sep 2014, 15:46
Holy fuck. That's a cool find Noxx!
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: ankhtahr on 11 Sep 2014, 12:49
Huh. It seems like I'll be getting my father's Röhm RG96, a blank replica of the H&amp;K USP. Probably the closest to a real gun I'll ever hold in my hands. As my interest is mainly in the technical aspects, I don't mind that it doesn't propel bullets.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 12 Sep 2014, 08:18
That's pretty cool actually. What... is it for? If you don't mind me asking.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: ankhtahr on 12 Sep 2014, 10:51
Well, the purpose they're sold for is self defense. Having a blank fired in your face is supposed to be very disorienting. Also it looking like a real firearm might scare somebody off.
I'm sceptical about that.
What most people use them for is fireworks on new years eve. That is the only day of the year where you're allowed to light fireworks, and if you're on private property then using a blank firing pistol is allowed as well. Blank firing pistols actually come with a launching cup for signalling ammunition over here.
They're also of interest for collectors, as owning a real firearm is very strictly regulated.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 12 Sep 2014, 20:41
off to the sight in range tomorrow.
bringing the inventory, sans the handguns and .22
* I hope I don't get pulled over.  but if you hear about somebody arrested on I-95 with an arsenal.........

here is a serious question: will having holes tapped to mount slings affect my shotgun's accuracy?
I really don't think so, but the Son asked.  I've never had slings done before: what do y'all think?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 15 Sep 2014, 21:14
Picked up an absolutely beautiful Remington manufactured 1903A3 from 1942 at a yard sale, $200
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 15 Sep 2014, 23:55
here is a serious question: will having holes tapped to mount slings affect my shotgun's accuracy?
I really don't think so, but the Son asked.  I've never had slings done before: what do y'all think?

Holes tapped where exactly? You can get a forward sling swivel that bolts between the barrel and the tube that works pretty sell if you want to save some machining.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 16 Sep 2014, 14:33
Picked up an absolutely beautiful Remington manufactured 1903A3 from 1942 at a yard sale, $200
You can buy guns at a yard sale?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Akima on 16 Sep 2014, 16:36
No politics? That is a question likely to provoke a gun-rights/gun-laws good/bad debate. As a matter of fact, plainly you can.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 16 Sep 2014, 16:38
I wasn't asking if he should be able to, I just didn't know it was allowed. It being legal isn't "matter of fact", and if it isn't, I would rather it not be talked about on the forum.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 16 Sep 2014, 16:50
private sales between adult citizens are fully legal.
If I were to make such a sale, I'd only ask for ID if there was a question of age.


I'm looking at needing to drill a hole in the underside of the stock, and the H&R only has a tap hole at the end of the tube.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 16 Sep 2014, 16:50
private sales between adult citizens are fully legal.
Thanks, that's all I needed to hear.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 16 Sep 2014, 19:16
So I have been denied the ability to make my dinosaur hunting gun. Technical reason: Head instructor doesn't want me investing the time required to open the bolt face up to a .458 Win Mag. It's doable, but again time and effort required aren't worth it in his mind. So I can select any round that fits a "standard" bolt face (vs. say a magnum bolt face). So since the bolt came set up for a .30-06 I'm doing a .338-06. A .338-06 is a necked up .30-06 cartridge that now rolls deep with a .338 round. It has INCREDIBLE ballistics, it's hit point at 300 yards is LITERALLY a straight line from point of origin. That's fucking insane.

My day as a gunsmith was fucking painful otherwise. 7.5 hours polishing this barrel and it's STILL fucked up. Whatever. I don't care about project time any more. I want to get it right, not necessarily get it done fast.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 17 Sep 2014, 07:50
private sales between adult citizens are fully legal.
If I were to make such a sale, I'd only ask for ID if there was a question of age.


I'm looking at needing to drill a hole in the underside of the stock, and the H&R only has a tap hole at the end of the tube.

No this will not have any effect on function or accuracy. If you wish to avoid damage the stock for other reasons, it is usually possible to use a traditional leather strap around the stock, with a D ring for fast sling attachment
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 17 Sep 2014, 07:53
I am looking forward to seeing your 338-06 project. I've always been a big fan of the ought six wildcats in all their weird glory, as the 30-06 is pretty well the definitive "american game cartridge", and America is a nation of tinkerers.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 20 Sep 2014, 00:17
I'll be sure to let you know. It's gonna be awhile till I get it done. Basics class lasts for about three months, and the project rifle honestly lasts into D&F (Design and Function) which is basically the last part of the class.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 22 Sep 2014, 15:54
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/1601460_10152795494405815_1641312006491321525_n.jpg?oh=74d7d1e38a5c74bf466fab2f52abe54f&oe=54CE9700&__gda__=1418051723_ae7ee0aeb9150f545941ba37fe15e383)

Got a 3.3 on my refinishing and bluing project :D
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 22 Sep 2014, 16:10
I can't help but notice that you're in the same class as (James?) Bond! :roll:

(Congrats, though! That's out of 4, right?)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 22 Sep 2014, 16:50
Yes. To give you an idea in the era of the current grading system TWO students have gotten 3.8s for a course GPA. So grading is kinda brutal. And yes one of my classmates is Mr. Bond. He's a fellow Marine and a machinegunner.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 24 Sep 2014, 17:17
my photobucket is having issues, but I tweeted this for y'all enjoyment..
https://twitter.com/redgrognard/status/514774735730012160

M-N M91/30s, some with hex receivers. 
found manufacture dates of 1920,1921 and '22.
as well as 1934, '36, '38 and '40.
also available are some M44s.

prices running from $159 - $249
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 24 Sep 2014, 20:19

my photobucket is having issues, but I tweeted this for y'all enjoyment..
https://twitter.com/redgrognard/status/514774735730012160

M-N M91/30s, some with hex receivers. 
found manufacture dates of 1920,1921 and '22.
as well as 1934, '36, '38 and '40.
also available are some M44s.

prices running from $159 - $249

Om nom nom.

You know I have a Tula arsenal Mark tattoo right?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 24 Sep 2014, 20:52
I want a whole case :D
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 25 Sep 2014, 03:58
I want a whole case :D

considering I'm good friends with the gun shop owner, and he does have two...
we could probably work something reasonable out.  :D
but my 'finders fee' is gonna be a customized M-N.....
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 25 Sep 2014, 06:13
So much I can do with nuggets. I want one to completely refinish, an all matching M44, a Finnish M30 and then, finally a mix master to turn into an Obrez pistol
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 25 Sep 2014, 08:15
Oh and a Sniper, all matching original scope.

In other news I am making a choke tube wrench. It is highly aggravating
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 25 Sep 2014, 20:22
Found a gas trap M1. Guy wants too much. It's heartbreaking.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 26 Sep 2014, 20:33
found another 5 cases of Mosies at another gun shop about 18 miles away.  Turns out the two owners worked a deal and bought mass quantities.

oh. and a bitching whine: Archangel stocks DONT come with the thumb operated M-N safety.  and they're still $200 for  the stock alone.  the fucking stock is more expensive than the original full rifle.... whine.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 26 Sep 2014, 21:26

found another 5 cases of Mosies at another gun shop about 18 miles away.  Turns out the two owners worked a deal and bought mass quantities.

oh. and a bitching whine: Archangel stocks DONT come with the thumb operated M-N safety.  and they're still $200 for  the stock alone.  the fucking stock is more expensive than the original full rifle.... whine.

Drop a timney trigger in a Mosin, keep the original stock, you get a better trigger, AND safety.

How much they want for a case of them things.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 27 Sep 2014, 19:43

found another 5 cases of Mosies at another gun shop about 18 miles away.  Turns out the two owners worked a deal and bought mass quantities.

oh. and a bitching whine: Archangel stocks DONT come with the thumb operated M-N safety.  and they're still $200 for  the stock alone.  the fucking stock is more expensive than the original full rifle.... whine.

Drop a timney trigger in a Mosin, keep the original stock, you get a better trigger, AND safety.

How much they want for a case of them things.

TIMNEY trigger!  So that is the magical missing piece I've wanted.... $103.  ow.

I'll ask Darell if he would sell by the case.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 27 Sep 2014, 20:04
Don't bother, blew my toy money today on a Smith 25, a pacific theatre remington 11
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 27 Sep 2014, 22:25
my question is this: with a budget of $500, what type of quality semiauto rifle can I get?
...not including AK or SKS or .22s: a real meat getting rifle.
I've searched gun broker but not found much.
I use the $500 because to trick out a M-N with a Timney trigger and an Archangel stock would cost about that.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 28 Sep 2014, 07:51
my question is this: with a budget of $500, what type of quality semiauto rifle can I get?
...not including AK or SKS or .22s: a real meat getting rifle.
I've searched gun broker but not found much.
I use the $500 because to trick out a M-N with a Timney trigger and an Archangel stock would cost about that.

I am curious about the semi-auto qualification? It drives pricing up quite a bit, but when you say "meat getting", I think of hunting and it's associated ammo capacity regulations. Most people looking at a deer rifle are by default heading towards bolties. Is this a recoil issue?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 28 Sep 2014, 10:53
http://www.luckygunner.com/12ga-3-uranium-drone-load-tacnition-5-rounds

Hmmm I know what I want for Christmas.


Groggie I'd suggest poking around on Armslist and buying second hand.

Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 28 Sep 2014, 16:55
One  of yesterdays acquisitions, a late 1956 production of the Smith M25 target (model 25) heavy barrel in 45 ACP / Auto Rim. I am doing some Smith research, difficulty as the company is very heavy on tribal knowledge, to determine if the target grips may be an original option, any data you guys could provide in this area would be great. With the compensator removed, it cleaned up quite nicely, and will most likely become a permanent part of my collection.
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/28/ceceb723362c71fd614a43db38dcc2e8.jpg)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 28 Sep 2014, 18:21
GM: I haven't found much of anything on Armslist.

NOXX: nice find of the M25.

*I spoke with my gun shop owner: a case of Tula's finest would run "$2800 and change."

yes, I am becoming a bit recoil averse.  "Uncle Winston" beats me up with every trigger pull. 
AND .303 ammo is become very rare and dear.
I'm thinking of a Ruger Ranch Rifle in 5.56, but those are $700+
I was wondering about the 6.8SPC and .270 Winchester ?

then again, I'm not in a hurry: tax returns don't get here until February.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Orkboy on 28 Sep 2014, 20:06
Gorram, Noxx, that is a sexy gun.
Title: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 28 Sep 2014, 20:28
Good ammo is always dear, but a $25 lee loader and a hammer cures a lot of those ills.

I can't think of anything under $500 that won't be milsurp based
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 28 Sep 2014, 20:44
I have no problem with MilSurp.

where do you think I got this laptop?  :D
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 29 Sep 2014, 06:08
Noxx I haaaaaaaaate you for that find. If it was in .357 Mag I probably wouldn't be speaking to you for a few days.


GM wants a nice S&W Trooper or something...
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 29 Sep 2014, 17:11

Noxx I haaaaaaaaate you for that find. If it was in .357 Mag I probably wouldn't be speaking to you for a few days.


GM wants a nice S&amp;W Trooper or something...

Then you'd be livid over the pacific theater remington 11
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 29 Sep 2014, 21:53
Less so. Still jelly
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 30 Sep 2014, 16:39
Just found a S&W M19-3 (1967 Production, and the earlier with Smiths, the better they are for the most part). It's finish is completely and utterly fucked. In every sense of the word. However it seems mechanically sound, so I'm thinking I might buy it as a project handgun. A little polishing and rebluing and it should be fine.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Dragonsreach on 01 Oct 2014, 06:04
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10626830_10152354239367469_371859153116933666_n.jpg?oh=baa65521183f60b6f8a6db7ddc51d084&oe=5494D88A&__gda__=1420105696_08836f971109f0dc840eb705002429cd)

Mauser update. Heresy or hot?
I'm sorry to have to back date to quote this, BUT that is one seriously tasty update to a classic weapon.

I was granted the opportunity, by my father, to fire a Mauser 9mm 'way back in the early 70'S and found it really strange at first.
Then once I got used to the additional height of the frame I found it was a remarkably accurate weapon at 50 Yards range.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 01 Oct 2014, 08:02
I want the update. I also desperately want a Chinese Type 17. I blame Akima for this.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 01 Oct 2014, 09:38
I have no qualms about hacking on a broomhandle because it was a piece of crap to start with, you can only make it better.

Regarding the old Smith, consider sending it back to smith for refinishing. Their prices are reasonable, and nobody can ever put a blue finish on a revolver like they can.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 01 Oct 2014, 10:42
Noxx... I'm an apprentice gunsmith.

I am buying this poor old model 19 specifically to clean her up myself.

Polish, blue, timing and trigger job.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 01 Oct 2014, 11:49
Revolver get, they took my opening of $300 with a little hemming and hawing. Pics tonight when I pick her up
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 01 Oct 2014, 20:16
Well you set yourself a hard row. I wouldn't want a revolver to be my first refinish job.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 02 Oct 2014, 00:57
It's not. I've already refinished a barrel to a matchless/mirror finish with excellent marks from my instructors, and I start doing a total refinish and reblue on a rifle tomorrow, before I'll get to refinishing this handgun I have a couple more refinishing jobs to do, as well as polishing and bluing the .338-06

(https://scontent-a-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10653721_10152817547120815_6712147594216774381_n.jpg?oh=197dbf7b84f2f542bf0fced3a049543c&oe=54BD895E)
(https://scontent-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/1969230_10152817547270815_7864473104680869463_n.jpg?oh=74774732b092e6b8bc854e9bf43e2c82&oe=54B6D571)
(https://scontent-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10686750_10152817547455815_3991911647938364209_n.jpg?oh=bfefff3dfa28e334f9aaa4d892c9f45e&oe=54BA4E53)

Not the best pics ever, but she's in pretty good shape all told. Mechanically perfect, and the surface rust fell off with a little scotchbrite. Going to need to deblue weapon before I can see exactly what's pitting and what's just fucked up bluing, However I think there's enough little spots here and there that I probably won't be able to get the finish back up to a factory finish without jeopardizing structural integrity or things like the proof mark and serial numbers. Going to consult with my trademasters before I go full tilt at her.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Orkboy on 02 Oct 2014, 08:24
Is that a gun resting on a MC jacket?  Are you more badass than I previously suspected?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 02 Oct 2014, 15:33
Sons of Odin: Midgard.

So yes, yes he is.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 02 Oct 2014, 16:49
It's hard to get more bad ass then me.

Started working on my first gun today, refinishing the rifle I learned to shoot on, the first gun I ever fired, thousands of dollars of guns and ammo go started, a Marlin Model 81-DL tube fed bolt action rifle from roughly 1950. The stock looks better then I've ever seen it already, and the butt plate actually fits now, and I'm slowly working on the barrel and other metal pieces slowly.
However in the process of forcing the parts that hold the mag tube in place (the mag tube on a 81-DL is held in by two dove tailed rings) I snapped one of the rings. Thankfully the part's available and already on it's way, but I'm kinda relieved. Broke my first part. Now that's out of the way and I can get to fixing this thing.

Desired endstate is a 400 grit finish for barrel and receiver, the stock will be taken to a 400 grit, stained and finished with Tru Oil. Currently thinking a nice dark red stain, which will be further darkened by the oil finish.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 03 Oct 2014, 16:37
Range report: New Model 19 shoots straight and didn't explode on me.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1800221_10152822931165815_2206451557340112382_n.jpg?oh=14960a8bfb668896cf5bbf5f691ea984&oe=54B6F656&__gda__=1422211132_9f58c072f9646d99bf31164649a77c13)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 08 Oct 2014, 13:52
I have waffled on this rifle for weeks. Finally I couldn't stand it anymore. Outside of my budget, but if I let it go I'll never see another, and it'll haunt me. HAUNT. Seriously.

Korean war arsenal issue, unfired in original bag. Easily the most beautiful M1 I've seen in my life.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10712757_741324479236351_7825227726712910947_n.jpg?oh=c175e40db6c7e22438e7bd2dad2dae45&oe=54B7201F&__gda__=1420519029_b242cd98c0803ca50e4af34cf6ab3a0c)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 08 Oct 2014, 15:51
Whoa.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 08 Oct 2014, 16:36
I kinda hate you. But in a good way <3

This is how I spent my day:

(https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/10702043_10152838256995815_2731354401650226133_n.jpg?oh=630b3fce3c29c69f6670d240bc6d65a1&oe=54BA3C7F)

These are the tanks for a caustic hot salt bluing process.

Bluing is a common finish for firearms and steel parts. Being able to polish and blue well is a cornerstone of gunsmithing skill, especially for firearms restoration work. Basically its a controlled oxidization to create a thin layer of black rust on a steel surface. This rust proofs the steel and provides a rather appealing aesthetic look.

Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 08 Oct 2014, 16:52
Bluing and case hardening are the most attractive finishes available in my opinion.

Be careful workin around them dip tanks, you will find out about every tiny nick on your hands you didn't know you had.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 08 Oct 2014, 19:54
@Noxx...
whoa. gorgeous find.  Sooooo much envy.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 09 Oct 2014, 06:15
Noxx because the caustic salts we use will EAT you, we wear full length aprons, shoulder length gloves and face shields. No fucking around is permitted with chemicals that eat your skin.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 09 Oct 2014, 07:15

Noxx because the caustic salts we use will EAT you, we wear full length aprons, shoulder length gloves and face shields. No fucking around is permitted with chemicals that eat your skin.

Nice. I wish the various electroplating shops I used to do service for had the same level of caution. I'll never work around that stuff again.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 09 Oct 2014, 15:13
Yeah fuck that. Again. These chemicals will FUCKING EAT YOUR FUCKING FLESH OFF THE BONE! Then eat the bone. Like they will seriously destroy you. 100%. Nothing will be left. Playing games with things that destroy you = No fucking go.

In gunsmithing news today, my fucking Model 81-DL was being a massive pain in the ass all day. Massive issues with EVERY FUCKING FACET of the gun. One of the roll pins for the sear won't stay in, the cocking sear's face was completely fucked, there were some marks in my bluing I quickly cleaned up with some cold blue... I had to re blue some of my parts, and then two of the screws  scratched AGAIN when I installed them. Fuck me running. So a little touch up here and there with cold blue. Oh well. I think I have everything working, and I'm just waiting for a part for the mag tube and the rifle's ready to go except for the stock, which has MANY coats of tru-oil left, but is looking sexy.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 09 Oct 2014, 21:11
Only the mag tube? Shit I've been trying to find a replacement mag tube for my old winchester for years
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 09 Oct 2014, 23:03
It's the forward ring to hold the mag tube in place.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 09 Oct 2014, 23:11
Oh and the other issue with the model 81? The trigger and sear are arranged on a pillar that extends down from the receiver. This is a simple stupid set up which only requires two pins and two springs to make everything work right.

However at some point during the disassembly and restoration that bad boy BENT. So that put pressure on the parts, which means trigger no work. Got everything bent back into place though.

Also had a bear of a time on reassembly because I couldn't remember where everything went, and how it went, moral of the story take a fuck load of pictures when you're disassembling a firearm
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 09 Oct 2014, 23:41
I love that tho.

One of the most interesting things about restoring vintage american arms is the wild disconnect in tech between "real rifles", and "boys rifles", or "gallery guns".

The small frame 22 rifles that made up the bulk of youth sales pre 1965 are amazing in their primitiveness, and present some really novel mechanical arrangements in search of simplicity
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 10 Oct 2014, 07:23
The system the 81 uses to load rounds is awesome and weird. I'll take some pics with some snap caps while I still have the stock off once I get the mag tube back on.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 10 Oct 2014, 08:05
The system the 81 uses to load rounds is awesome and weird. I'll take some pics with some snap caps while I still have the stock off once I get the mag tube back on.

I may have to get one. I am not a Marlin fan, but I do collect american youth rifles from 1890-1965.

Speaking of which, I have a project you'd love to see, it's in a friends garage atm, I'll have to retrieve it. A single shot 22 short boys rifle, made so cheaply as a giveaway item, the it actually has a rolled steel barrel LOL.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 10 Oct 2014, 08:30
....I have to see that.

Also not sure the 81 counts as a boy's rifle. Stock is sized for an adult.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 10 Oct 2014, 08:59
....I have to see that.

Also not sure the 81 counts as a boy's rifle. Stock is sized for an adult.

It doesn't. It postdates (or hugs the end of) the primary era for such rifles, but the defining characteristic of a bolt action "boys" or "youth" model from midcentury America, is usually a separate cocking mechanism independent of the bolt, similar to the Win 67 and similar Sears / HR rifles. These models not cocked by bolt action were considered "double safety" and "training" rifles, and were often adopted by the BSA.

Attached is  a photo of the straight pull cocking knob on a 67, that must be operated independently of bolt action. Internet sourced photo, but I have a couple of these rifles, and they demonstrate the ethos of the rural youth firearm, redundant safeties, inexpensive to manufacture, and simple reliable mechanisms.

(http://picturearchive.gunauction.com/5938103009/11286865/dsc06947.jpg_thumbnail0.jpg)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 10 Oct 2014, 09:04
Ah, here is a link to an article on the Hamilton rifles. The model 27 shown is identical to my own. The low quality of the hardware is astounding, these were giveaway rifles for sales incentives, etc. They do reflect however, a very specific time and place in american social history.

http://www.nrvoutdoors.com/HAMILTON/HAMILTON%2027.htm
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 10 Oct 2014, 16:38
I believe I'm going to convert Nadine to a side charging AR configuration. I've never cared for the rear charging handle it. While I'm at it, I'm thinking of doing something different with the gas tube. I've never understand why, in the trade off for direct impingement, the standard gas tube is so thin walled and subject to mechanical damage. I can't seem to find an off the shelve heavy tube, thinking of making just a long block that doesnt translate into a tube until it joins the receiver. thoughts?
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 11 Oct 2014, 19:38
If it works it works. It seems like it should... so lemme know how it goes?

I'm working on a new project for school in the research phase.
Mission: Ultra Optimized Mosin Nagant with iron sights aka The Hayha-Torni Special
Parts list:
One nugget in as good condition as I can find mechanically.
Modern Hardwood Nagant Stock or good quality M91/30 stock, stripped or raw.*
Bedding compound
Timney Drop in Nagant Trigger

Procedure:
Stock Refinish and Customization: Stock to 400 Grit Finish. Carving of Suomi flag and Hahya and Torni's names in Younger Futhark runes on the right side of the stock.
Stain, paint and refinish stock.
Pillar and Glass bed stock

Rifle optimization.
Replace ye olde school Nagant trigger with modern Timney trigger group
Lap lugs, check for burrs and tolerances on all surfaces, smooth and polish feed ramp
Bead blast and reparkerize all metal parts besides bolt

Reassemble
Go Innawoods
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 11 Oct 2014, 20:05
we got M-Ns here for $150....
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 11 Oct 2014, 20:57
Drop Mojo aperture sights on it, they really tune up a Mosin.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 11 Oct 2014, 23:01
I'm not sure I want to do that Noxx, Simo managed his 500 kills with the original equipment
Title: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 12 Oct 2014, 07:50
I'm not sure I want to do that Noxx, Simo managed his 500 kills with the original equipment

Which didn't include a nice hard stock with bedded pillars, or a match trigger either :P
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 12 Oct 2014, 08:35
That's fair, but I want to tune and perfect the original design as best I can. I'll consider it though.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 12 Oct 2014, 08:46
That's fair, but I want to tune and perfect the original design as best I can. I'll consider it though.

With that in mind have you thought about just polishing and tuning the original trigger group? Fine tuning sear engagement would actually be wonderful practice for a future gunsmith.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 12 Oct 2014, 10:51
I have, but I think I want to replace the trigger group on that one. I'll tune the original trigger on my 1941 all matching
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 12 Oct 2014, 10:58
I have, but I think I want to replace the trigger group on that one. I'll tune the original trigger on my 1941 all matching

Well it's certainly worth the money, I have a Timney in my "hog hunter" 91/59 and it's ideal. There is definitely some stock inletting work to installing it, but if you're bedding anyway it wont matter.

Boyds makes some excellent walnut Mosin stocks, FWIW

edit - browsing through Boyds new stuff, now they make a mosin stock thats already inlet for a Timney. woot.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 13 Oct 2014, 17:12
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/10712540_591299054330496_2398643863351937705_o.jpg)

If you have to ask, rifle is fine.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 14 Oct 2014, 15:54
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/1619470_10152858026775815_8801314662704510087_n.jpg?oh=da8984057f6381c5c225e532e8c86c87&oe=54F0F097&__gda__=1421437870_09e4fec15cba957f5e409efa72fdf530)

Metal restoration: Complete. Still working on the stock.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 14 Oct 2014, 23:57
Lookin good
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 16 Oct 2014, 09:01
So my "as-issued" Garand should be shipping next week. I'm pretty damn concerned about it, since its value derives entirely from it's condition, not it's make or provenance or any of the factors I usually shop for. Sent the seller an e-mail this morning to see about the additional cost of just having a crate knocked up to ensure it's safety.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 20 Oct 2014, 09:51
MAKERS -

Ares is closing out their last generation 80% polymer lowers at $50 a unit, which last I checked includes jig and tooling for each unit. If you ever thought about a polymer milling project, this is the time to snap them up.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 21 Oct 2014, 21:35
I own a No.4 Mk1 Lee Enfield, dated 1942.  I call it "Uncle Winston".
Today a friend forwarded to me this sad news...
http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2014/10/18/lack_of_spare_parts_triggers_the_end_for_old_reliable_leeenfield_rifle.html

there are many rifles like mine: this aint it.  Placed here as a visual cue.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_qJILF0zyFzU/S7lv1kcswcI/AAAAAAAABxY/VxtRrrYVpOY/s1600/ENFROD.jpg)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 21 Oct 2014, 22:31
I am debating what kind of trouble I'll be in with the wife if I start allocating funds to build a modern long range rifle.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 23 Oct 2014, 22:35
When I was going around trying to find a machining bit I potentially needed today and people kept looking at me like I was insane for being able to MAKE stuff I think it finally dawned on me just how specialized machinist skills have become.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 24 Oct 2014, 08:49
When I was going around trying to find a machining bit I potentially needed today and people kept looking at me like I was insane for being able to MAKE stuff I think it finally dawned on me just how specialized machinist skills have become.

You ain't kidding. Real machinist, and old tool-and-die guys are in high demand. The old dudes I work with at the park ain't never at a loss for something to do, or a lot of money for doing it
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 24 Oct 2014, 08:56
Apparently a decent manual lathe operator can pull high 5, low 6 starting. Even straight out of here.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 27 Oct 2014, 15:58
(https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/16775_10152888572660815_869060181483121762_n.jpg?oh=78adb26e101c957423fee29d5e82fd12&oe=54F07420)

The fine, and painful to learn art of bolt jeweling produces a finish that many gun owners find attractive. The micro grooves the process creates can also help the bolt retain and channel oil better.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 29 Oct 2014, 15:11
Make me a 30 car gas nut wrench while you're fooling around and save me twenty bucks.

Did my first complete break down of the carbine I've had for years, thing was absolutely full of cosmo and fire hardened grease. Running about 1000% better now, but I'd like to decarb the gas piston anyway, just to make it complete.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 30 Oct 2014, 14:20
Box of upper receivers on my porch today. Woot.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 14 Nov 2014, 18:51
Repurposed this 70's era portable super heavy table saw. Removed 75 pounds of guts, and it's a perfect mobile station for assembly / dis / cleaning, with onboard storage for punches hammers and Chem. The slots on the surface are a total bonus for pin driving. (http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/11/14/2082e5717c06fdaf901563a784c0c920.jpg)(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/11/14/de8504a786e09bdaa802c8a55ed8ad37.jpg)(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/11/14/00c08e4fa982ac787ec4d1daed0b4df6.jpg)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 15 Nov 2014, 21:03
Nice.

So adding to my long running shitty week. I have new magazines for my Jericho 941. There is however a problem. These mags don't lock the slide back on my Jericho. They feed well so far, but there's just enough difference... ugh that's what I get for buying pro mags.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 15 Nov 2014, 21:40

ugh that's what I get for buying pro mags.

Yes. Yes it is.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 15 Nov 2014, 21:41
At any rate you can still use them if you can find replacement followers
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 16 Nov 2014, 07:28
Da. Apparently the PS01 followers work, and I'm emailing magnum research to see if I get some of theirs.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 16 Nov 2014, 21:05
Picking up a Ruger MkII for a target pistol project.

edit - was supposed to get the damn thing today, but I ended up working in the nearly finished bathroom all afternoon. It's always some damn thing.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 27 Nov 2014, 16:09
Interesting note. The Model 25 I posted, apparently those target grips were handmade by Ed "Fuzzy" Farrant of the LAPD pistol team, and are quite the sought after collectible.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 05 Dec 2014, 20:02
Having a slow time selling my 03A3
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 05 Dec 2014, 20:23
Yeah? Funny, those are usually pretty popular pick ups.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 06 Dec 2014, 08:28
Everyone here in CA. Is rushing to get their last SSE's before 1/1/15, so the market is tilted towards off roster handguns
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 06 Dec 2014, 10:25
I'd offer to buy it off you, but I'm short on scratch.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 06 Dec 2014, 15:00
You would be better off restoring a $500 CMP model than buying a nice one off the market anyhow, you'd get more out itt.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: GarandMarine on 06 Dec 2014, 16:34
CMP hasn't had 1903s for a dog's age last I looked
Title: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 18 Dec 2014, 22:33
I need to source a locking, relatively hard yet classic looking wall display unit  for one pistol and one rifle. I don't want to hide my best wwii stuff in the safe, but if I'm putting it on the wall I need it to be solid.
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/18/5381eff41ca213f35c5f5abd47f0d70a.jpg)(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/18/232ffe2b9baed25485cd4268a16fea54.jpg)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 22 Dec 2014, 17:07
Starting to stone a sig 1911 trigger bow. Interesting to note the pattern of the the high points. (http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/22/d31601fecd8b5525e7a78fb41ccbe764.jpg)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 30 Dec 2014, 21:17

I'd offer to buy it off you, but I'm short on scratch.

I pulled it off the market anyway. It is a really nice example, and I don't want to replace it later.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 04 Jan 2015, 18:24
Eight or nine years ago I grabbed a pretty nice Marlin 24 at an auction for fifty or sixty bucks. That summer, I shot some skeet with it, and during some fast shooting (It's an autotrigger like all the old slide actions) it locked up on me, probably got the recoil safety out of position. I got home, took it apart, and promptly forgot about it. For years.

Today I finally decided to get it squared away, and after a lot of cleaning and some stoning, I went to get into reassembly, and damned if I'm not missing the recoil lug and a couple of the super-weird old Marlin screws.

So now I'm at an impasse... buy the replacement parts for more than I paid for it, or put it mostly back together and just hang the bugger over the fireplace.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Method of Madness on 04 Jan 2015, 18:34
Marlin 24 at an auction for fifty or sixty bucks.
Not gonna lie, I forgot what thread I was in, thought this was a type of Scotch I hadn't heard of, and was extremely jealous (seriously, 24-year-old scotch for sixty bucks?) Alas.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 15 Jan 2015, 19:04
Gonna fire form some Nambu ammo outta .380 cases.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 12 Mar 2015, 17:38
Anybody else get the reloaders blues? I have all the components I need for a run of 30 Car, just need to set up the press and go, but I'll be damned if I can be bothered.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 12 Mar 2015, 19:42
I once got into reloading hard.
went and bought all the gear ... searched hard and found some awesome deals for slightly used.
got all set up for reloading 20 GA and 9mm.
made like 20 rounds of 20, and 100 of 9mm.
and then was done.

it all sat for about 3 years before I sold it.

I know them blues.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 13 Mar 2015, 00:19
I don't think I'll ever give it up. But it sure goes through phases. Long ones.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 02 May 2015, 09:43
First gen second model Dragoons are routinely clearing $5K now. I hope I haven't missed out entirely
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 02 May 2015, 16:25
Is the double-barrel pistol from the Kingsman movie even mechanically possible?
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Kingsman:_The_Secret_Service#Kingsman_Pistol_.28TT-30.29
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 02 May 2015, 21:35
First gen second model Dragoons are routinely clearing $5K now. I hope I haven't missed out entirely

My wife's Great Uncle has 6+ Dragoons.  couldn't tell you which model, etc.
All of them recovered from the Gettysburg battlefield by their family.
2 work.  the others are either rusty or judged unsafe.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 03 May 2015, 06:55

Is the double-barrel pistol from the Kingsman movie even mechanically possible?
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Kingsman:_The_Secret_Service#Kingsman_Pistol_.28TT-30.29

Sure. Unlikely to have much effect, with less than an inch of barrel ahead of a loaded shell. Also pretty likely to damage both itself and the user. So wildly impractical yeah, but mechanically not an overwhelming challenge.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Noxx on 03 May 2015, 06:57

First gen second model Dragoons are routinely clearing $5K now. I hope I haven't missed out entirely

My wife's Great Uncle has 6+ Dragoons.  couldn't tell you which model, etc.
All of them recovered from the Gettysburg battlefield by their family.
2 work.  the others are either rusty or judged unsafe.

(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/03/3969e835cc234303fa262cf686a2aba4.jpg)
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 25 Nov 2015, 14:41
http://www.jamesrpatrick.com/p/pm522-washbear-3d-printed-22lr-pistol.html

That's all I know.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Grognard on 06 Jul 2017, 22:03
Nothing political here:  Just a very happy guy surrounded by Bikers of the retired military type.

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n219/steve_ronin/7941E097-9909-4F6C-88C9-F3C1B673D2D9_zpslegw569p.jpg)

This is me with my new Henry Arms Golden Boy in .30-30 Win.

Won it from a raffle to benefit homeless veterans.

Aint it just BEAUTIFUL.  I love the artistic form of brass, steel and wood.  :)

It's brand new, but it's like holding a museum piece.
Title: Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
Post by: Case on 20 Jul 2017, 11:31
(http://assets.motivationalgenerator.com/hashed_silo_content/aa0/15c/733/resized/silencer-and-you-thought-the-shotgun-suppressor-was-a-ridiculous-idea-b0b6a9.jpg)

Nope, that one is actually real (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php/6073-German-Artillery-silencer-!!) - it's an artillery sound suppressor courtesy of the Wehrtechnische Dienststelle für Waffen und Munition 91 (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrtechnische_Dienststelle_91) (WTD 91 - 'Defence Technology Service, Area 91 - Weapons and Ammunition') in Meppen, Germany.


For the history-buffs amongst you: The area that is now called WTD 91 has been an artillery shooting range for well over a century (since 1877) and many famous German boom-sticks were tested & developed there, e.g. various Naval Artillery pieces, the Imperial Army's "Big Bertha"-howitzer and the "Paris Gun" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Gun), as well as the well-known Leopard I and Leopard II main battle tanks. And no, Germany has only seven WTD's for all three branches of its military, not close to a hundred - I guess the Bundeswehr likes to mess with people's minds as much as the next gun-nut ...  :laugh: