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Comic Discussion => QUESTIONABLE CONTENT => Topic started by: Eddie 88 on 08 Jun 2013, 08:25

Title: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Eddie 88 on 08 Jun 2013, 08:25
I Searched and couldn't find a recent topic specifically about this. Also, disclaimer: I haven't been actively reading QC for over a year, so if there's been any recent developments that invalidate anything I'm about to say, apologies in advance. I'm currently working my way from the first comic all the way back up to current, so it won't be TOO long.

Anyway, when I first started reading QC years ago and first got to The Talk, I got this weird sort of vibe. Reading through the archive a few years later, I got it again, and just the other day, archive crawling again, I got it again. The Bourbon-in-the-milkshake, Amanda's jealousy, Faye's completely rose-tinted memories. Long story short, I think the reason Faye's dad killed himself was that he was sexually abusing Faye, and was remorseful. He was far too disgusted with himself and ashamed to admit it to anyone (certainly his wife) and try to work through the problem, but on the other hand, he couldn't just stop. In that hopeless situation, he saw only one way out.

And obviously, this theory implies that Faye is repressing her memories. All she remembers is their secret alone time, their "special connection," sans the sexual violation it entailed.

This would explain why Faye has(/had) such intense sexual dysfunction. Because if you think about it, parental suicide shouldn't logically lead to sexual problems. Generic trust issues, yeah, but Faye never really had those; hell, QC starts off with her approaching some random boy and pressganging him into friendship. And verbal sparring aside, she started trusting Dora really quickly, and pretty much every new character since.

One could argue that's either because A) she made a lot of progress really quickly or B) Jeph didn't feel it would be a good authorial choice to have Faye have to be defensive with every single new character he introduces (especially since he introduces a lot of 'em) and then slowly learn to trust them just to portray her character consistantly.

So yeah, Faye's central psychosis has always been sexual intimacy issues. And it doesn't seem like those would logically follow a parental suicide.

So what do you think? Am I way off-base? Did anyone else get this sort of impression from the whole Faye's dad backstory thing? Have there been any recent developments that invalidate any of this? (Don't worry about "spoiling" me if there have been.)
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Mr_Rose on 08 Jun 2013, 08:35
Faye has sexual intimacy issues? Since when?
Hella trust issues specifically centred around the people in her life leaving her, but she's never had a problem with intercourse.
You will notice that Angus deciding a fifteen minute boob fondling was a better use of her break time than anything else didn't faze her, but the slightest hint of him moving away completely discombobulated her.

So yes I think you are way off base.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Zebediah on 08 Jun 2013, 09:35
Faye doesn't act like a victim of childhood sexual abuse. I've known a few women who were sexually abused as children or teenagers, and in some ways they tend to act more like Hannelore than Faye - they often get extremely freaked out by even a little bit of friendly physical contact. And that's all I'm going to say on the subject for now.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 08 Jun 2013, 09:38
"Abandonment issues" might be more precise. Fear of emotional closeness was I think why she jumped Sven, thinking that she could use him as a human vibrator without risking emotional attachment (not that it worked).

On the other hand, her response to the prospect of someone being sexually attracted to her even secretly was disproportionate.

In my irrelevant opinion, it's better art if we never find out why David Whitaker shot himself.

Quote from: Zebediah, who red-texted me
they often get extremely freaked out by even a little bit of friendly physical contact.

Was there a case where Faye even allowed a little bit of friendly physical contact from Marten while sober?
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: TinPenguin on 08 Jun 2013, 09:44
There was the time he slapped her butt.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: pwhodges on 08 Jun 2013, 10:00
Was there a case where Faye even allowed a little bit of friendly physical contact from Marten while sober?

Tthree times, when Faye was miserable:  when he hugged her outside CoD (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=342), but lost the chance to do it again! During the Talk (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=505) (thanks ThomasEll), and shortly before the breakup (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1741).
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: ThomasEll on 08 Jun 2013, 10:24
There was the time he slapped her butt.

She did punch him for it though I'm fairly sure.

The one time that I can definitely think of is when he hugged her just after she told him about her dad.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Loki on 08 Jun 2013, 13:17
Have there been any recent developments that invalidate any of this? (Don't worry about "spoiling" me if there have been.)

Nope. The most recent time this was discussed was in a situation involving Faye and Angus, but it did not shed any new light on anything.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Redball on 08 Jun 2013, 13:30
I had the same thought as Eddie on first reading The Talk, and in my naivete and before discovering the forum might even have asked Jeph (no answer that I recall). What reinforced the thought was the top panel here (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=503), and the looks from mom and sis.

But later, I decided I'd read too much into that. And I agree with IICIH, that it's better and better art not to know.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Eddie 88 on 08 Jun 2013, 13:53
Faye doesn't act like a victim of childhood sexual abuse. I've known a few women who were sexually abused as children or teenagers, and in some ways they tend to act more like Hannelore than Faye - they often get extremely freaked out by even a little bit of friendly physical contact. And that's all I'm going to say on the subject for now.
Well, how a real person might behave after sexual abuse has no bearing on how a fictional character might; it depends purely on what the author knows. Jeph might just not know how a sexual abuse victim would act.

"Abandonment issues" might be more precise. Fear of emotional closeness was I think why she jumped Sven, thinking that she could use him as a human vibrator without risking emotional attachment (not that it worked).

On the other hand, her response to the prospect of someone being sexually attracted to her even secretly was disproportionate.

In my irrelevant opinion, it's better art if we never find out why David Whitaker shot himself.
Absolutely, I agree 100%. Plus, it's more true-to-life. Although it's not common, sometimes people do commit suicide without having shown any signs of distress and without leaving any kind of note. For their loved ones, there's never any grand reveal, there's never any closure. For Jeph to hand The Truth to us from on-high would cheapen the emotional and character importance of the event.

That said, I'd still like to know more about Faye's dad, if only to fuel our speculatin'.

Was there a case where Faye even allowed a little bit of friendly physical contact from Marten while sober?

Tthree times, when Faye was miserable:  when he hugged her outside CoD (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=342), but lost the chance to do it again! During the Talk (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=505) (thanks ThomasEll), and shortly before the breakup (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1741).
I'd say misery counts as a compromised mental state. She doesn't let people touch her (even, say, Dora) when sober and happy, only when drunk and/or miserable. Also, a hug isn't necessarily sexual.

There was the time he slapped her butt.

She did punch him for it though I'm fairly sure.
Yeah, I just read that one. She decked him clean to the floor (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=378). Although I wouldn't necessarily say a lady clobbering a guy who slapped her butt is evidence of sexual problems. I mean, I know I would never in a million years slap any of my ladyfriends' butts. Granted, I myself have issues, but still. Someone slaps your butt, I say you're well within your rights to...well, certainly not visit cartoonish violence on them, but this is a webcomic, after all.

(Note to Self: Webcomic After All would make a good Deathmole/Daft Punk mashup.)

Have there been any recent developments that invalidate any of this? (Don't worry about "spoiling" me if there have been.)

Nope. The most recent time this was discussed was in a situation involving Faye and Angus, but it did not shed any new light on anything.
Ah, okay. Thanks.

I had the same thought as Eddie on first reading The Talk, and in my naivete and before discovering the forum might even have asked Jeph (no answer that I recall). What reinforced the thought was the top panel here (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=503), and the looks from mom and sis.

But later, I decided I'd read too much into that. And I agree with IICIH, that it's better and better art not to know.
I didn't and don't think that particular panel meant or means anything. Amanda's just being jerky to Faye like always, and Mrs. Whitaker's scowling her disapproval at Amanda, not Faye/David. It's not any one thing that I can point towards and say "see? evidence!" It's just an overall feeling I get from the whole situation.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 08 Jun 2013, 14:17
On the other hand there's the outright fear of Marten that she had even after long experience with him: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=453
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Zebediah on 08 Jun 2013, 14:56
Faye doesn't act like a victim of childhood sexual abuse. I've known a few women who were sexually abused as children or teenagers, and in some ways they tend to act more like Hannelore than Faye - they often get extremely freaked out by even a little bit of friendly physical contact. And that's all I'm going to say on the subject for now.
Well, how a real person might behave after sexual abuse has no bearing on how a fictional character might; it depends purely on what the author knows. Jeph might just not know how a sexual abuse victim would act.

Maybe not, but Jeph is notorious for doing his homework on this kind of thing.

Besides, arguing that Faye suffered sexual abuse because you think that she acts how you imagine Jeph imagines a sexually abused person would act is kind of a stretch.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Loki on 08 Jun 2013, 14:58
I can kinda see where you are coming from, but my opinion is "no. just no."

From the story point of view, I just don't see any reliable indication that might have been the case. Yes, he had issues, and he was pretty close with Faye, but jeez. Does that automatically mean that he molested her?

This part about the argumentation bothers me the most:
Well, how a real person might behave after sexual abuse has no bearing on how a fictional character might; it depends purely on what the author knows. Jeph might just not know how a sexual abuse victim would act.

This basically gives way to ignoring all evidence to the contrary because you can counter it with "well, maybe Jeph doesn't know that". And in this case, absence of evidence is evidence of absence. I think Zebediah voiced my argument better than me while I was typing.

From an audience point of view, I cannot see Jeph giving Faye such a troubled past. I still wish we had Word Of God on this, though.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Eddie 88 on 08 Jun 2013, 15:40
On the other hand there's the outright fear of Marten that she had even after long experience with him: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=453
I wouldn't frame that as fear of Marten, just irrational fear that happens to be manifesting itself as the ludicrous proposition of being sexually assaulted by Marten. Which does seem like sexual dysfunction. Her fearing that Marten would abandon her if his mom didn't like her would be Faye exhibiting the trust issues one might expect from a child whose parent committed suicide. It makes no sense whatsoever that she'd worry about sexual violation in the aftermath of parental suicide, though.

Faye doesn't act like a victim of childhood sexual abuse. I've known a few women who were sexually abused as children or teenagers, and in some ways they tend to act more like Hannelore than Faye - they often get extremely freaked out by even a little bit of friendly physical contact. And that's all I'm going to say on the subject for now.
Well, how a real person might behave after sexual abuse has no bearing on how a fictional character might; it depends purely on what the author knows. Jeph might just not know how a sexual abuse victim would act.

Maybe not, but Jeph is notorious for doing his homework on this kind of thing.

Besides, arguing that Faye suffered sexual abuse because you think that she acts how you imagine Jeph imagines a sexually abused person would act is kind of a stretch.
Well, that's not my argument though; that was just me deflecting the notion that my argument is invalid because real people in real life don't act that way after sexual abuse. I actually don't really have an "argument," it's just the overall impression that I got.

I can kinda see where you are coming from, but my opinion is "no. just no."

From the story point of view, I just don't see any reliable indication that might have been the case. Yes, he had issues, and he was pretty close with Faye, but jeez. Does that automatically mean that he molested her?
Not automatically, no, it's just the impression I got from this particular situation. Honestly, as the child of one alcoholic non-entity parent and one physically abusive parent, I really, really envy people who have super-close relationships with their parents. If I was ever so lucky as to get married, and have children of my own, my only hope could be to be as close to them as Faye and her dad were (assuming no abuse, which is probably correct, but it's still fun to speculate).

This part about the argumentation bothers me the most:
Well, how a real person might behave after sexual abuse has no bearing on how a fictional character might; it depends purely on what the author knows. Jeph might just not know how a sexual abuse victim would act.

This basically gives way to ignoring all evidence to the contrary because you can counter it with "well, maybe Jeph doesn't know that". And in this case, absence of evidence is evidence of absence. I think Zebediah voiced my argument better than me while I was typing.

From an audience point of view, I cannot see Jeph giving Faye such a troubled past. I still wish we had Word Of God on this, though.
Yeah, 'cause Jeph totally hates interjecting drama into his characters pasts :p

I do definitely want Word of God eventually, though, but not until the comic is finished.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: pwhodges on 08 Jun 2013, 15:47
When he last mentioned the matter, Jeph had no plan to end the comic at any time.

But if you want, ask the question on his Tumblr - Jeph makes regular posts of answers there, and might well simply say "no" if he knows that.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: TheEvilDog on 08 Jun 2013, 15:56
Why would Mr. Whitaker kill himself?

Certainly wasn't physical health problems, the medical examiner proved that.

Certainly wasn't financial trouble, it would have come up when Faye told Marten about what happened, and when she visited her mother and sister. If it was for the insurance money, than that was a complete screw-up of a plan because insurance companies will not pay out on suicide.

Certainly wasn't unemployment because that would have come up as well.

Certainly wasn't to escape an abusive relationship or environment, because as much as Faye's mother may have disapproved of Faye's father adding bourbon to his milkshake, its quite apparent from what we've see, Faye's father deeply loved his family. And it's shown afterwards by Faye's mother commenting on the headstone.

Was it stress? Or grief? Depression? Was Mr. Whitaker actually an believer that all life was absurd and that there was no point in living? Or was he told he had Parkinson's or early onset Alzheimer's and decided that rather than letting his family see him fade away a little bit everyday, he would get up, watch the sun rise and pull the trigger.

Who knows. Because we don't. All we can do is speculate until Jeph decides what happened. And to be honest, I can tell you that isn't going to happen, ever. People rarely have a reason as to why they commit suicide; its often a case that it happens and then you have family and fiends left behind trying to make sense of why someone they loved would kill themselves. I say this from experience, not personal, from seeing the effect of suicide. There is a town near where I grew up, maybe a population of 8,000, about a decade ago, it was named as the town with the second highest rate of suicide in the world. Just let that sink in for a moment, small town, maybe 8,000 people. And it's suicide rate was enough that it elevated it to the second highest in the world. 34 young men killed themselves over the course of three years, nearly a rate of 1 every 34 days. And many of the families still have no idea why their loved ones killed themselves.

Because the truly horrifying thing about suicide is, sometimes, there is no reason.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: ThomasEll on 08 Jun 2013, 16:10
I had the same thought as Eddie on first reading The Talk, and in my naivete and before discovering the forum might even have asked Jeph (no answer that I recall). What reinforced the thought was the top panel here (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=503), and the looks from mom and sis.

But later, I decided I'd read too much into that. And I agree with IICIH, that it's better and better art not to know.

To be fair though, the page before she talks about how she told her dad about losing her virginity. She then went to college for about two years (her dad committed suicide between her Sophomore and Junior years). I'm pretty sure that if she had been sexually abused as a child she would remember it. Although I don't really have any experience to back that assumption up, it just doesn't seem likely.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Loki on 08 Jun 2013, 16:18
Honestly, as the child of one alcoholic non-entity parent and one physically abusive parent, I really, really envy people who have super-close relationships with their parents. If I was ever so lucky as to get married, and have children of my own, my only hope could be to be as close to them as Faye and her dad were (assuming no abuse, which is probably correct, but it's still fun to speculate).

I should probably note that my opinions of how close normal families are, too, rely on observation from afar.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 08 Jun 2013, 16:50
We've seen her therapy sessions. Dr. Buenvenida should know what sexual abuse looks like and how to probe for it, but didn't seem to suspect anything of the sort.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Redball on 08 Jun 2013, 16:53
That's conclusive to me. Maybe I give too much insight to shrinks, but sure she would have seen it.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Kugai on 08 Jun 2013, 18:02
Because the truly horrifying thing about suicide is, sometimes, there is no reason.


This
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Eddie 88 on 08 Jun 2013, 18:08
When he last mentioned the matter, Jeph had no plan to end the comic at any time.

But if you want, ask the question on his Tumblr - Jeph makes regular posts of answers there, and might well simply say "no" if he knows that.

For now, I'm much happier to burn time speculating than to ask the man himself. Plus, we don't know at this point that it won't eventually come up in the comic again. I mean, it won't, but I'd actually prefer to wait until the comic's conclusion, even if it's three decades from now. I suppose I could ask "do you, Jeph, know why David committed suicide, even if you'll never reveal it in the comic (which we all hope you won't)?"

Why would Mr. Whitaker kill himself?

Certainly wasn't physical health problems, the medical examiner proved that.

Certainly wasn't financial trouble, it would have come up when Faye told Marten about what happened, and when she visited her mother and sister. If it was for the insurance money, than that was a complete screw-up of a plan because insurance companies will not pay out on suicide.

Certainly wasn't unemployment because that would have come up as well.

Certainly wasn't to escape an abusive relationship or environment, because as much as Faye's mother may have disapproved of Faye's father adding bourbon to his milkshake, its quite apparent from what we've see, Faye's father deeply loved his family. And it's shown afterwards by Faye's mother commenting on the headstone.

Was it stress? Or grief? Depression? Was Mr. Whitaker actually an believer that all life was absurd and that there was no point in living? Or was he told he had Parkinson's or early onset Alzheimer's and decided that rather than letting his family see him fade away a little bit everyday, he would get up, watch the sun rise and pull the trigger.

Who knows. Because we don't. All we can do is speculate until Jeph decides what happened. And to be honest, I can tell you that isn't going to happen, ever. People rarely have a reason as to why they commit suicide; its often a case that it happens and then you have family and fiends left behind trying to make sense of why someone they loved would kill themselves. I say this from experience, not personal, from seeing the effect of suicide. There is a town near where I grew up, maybe a population of 8,000, about a decade ago, it was named as the town with the second highest rate of suicide in the world. Just let that sink in for a moment, small town, maybe 8,000 people. And it's suicide rate was enough that it elevated it to the second highest in the world. 34 young men killed themselves over the course of three years, nearly a rate of 1 every 34 days. And many of the families still have no idea why their loved ones killed themselves.

Because the truly horrifying thing about suicide is, sometimes, there is no reason.

Ooh, that bolded part, that's a good one I never considered -- maybe he was diagnosed with ALS and didn't want to put his family through that or something.

I don't think "people rarely have a reason to commit suicide" is correct, though. Think about how crazy that would be -- people just killing themselves for no reason at all. Just waking up one day and being all, "I think I'll kill myself today. No real reason, just because." I'm pretty sure in most cases, it's either due to depression or illness.

Honestly, as the child of one alcoholic non-entity parent and one physically abusive parent, I really, really envy people who have super-close relationships with their parents. If I was ever so lucky as to get married, and have children of my own, my only hope could be to be as close to them as Faye and her dad were (assuming no abuse, which is probably correct, but it's still fun to speculate).

I should probably note that my opinions of how close normal families are, too, rely on observation from afar.

I think it's safe to say that happy, healthy, neurotypical people don't read QC :p Or at least don't frequent its forums.

So what's your story vis-a-vis family drama? Mine's pretty standard, as you saw. Almost boringly standard. I actually wish I had something more exciting. Like, "Well, I'm the product of consentual incest and was raised in a circus, and when I'd miss a jump my father would make me eat hákarl while my mom read me explicit love-letters from their courtship days at the family reunions."

We've seen her therapy sessions. Dr. Buenvenida should know what sexual abuse looks like and how to probe for it, but didn't seem to suspect anything of the sort.

Good point, though again, Jeph isn't a liscensed therapist. And even if he's gone to them (which does seem likely), that doesn't mean Dr. Corrine's words are comparable to an actual therapist.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: TheEvilDog on 08 Jun 2013, 21:56
I don't think "people rarely have a reason to commit suicide" is correct, though. Think about how crazy that would be -- people just killing themselves for no reason at all. Just waking up one day and being all, "I think I'll kill myself today. No real reason, just because." I'm pretty sure in most cases, it's either due to depression or illness.

Congratulations on having a rather bláse point of view. The fact is, there is really only a small fraction of suicides where someone leaves a letter saying why they've taken such a drastic action. No one ever wakes up and says to themselves "I think I'll kill myself today." It could be a small thing; a comment here, something happening there. The whole thing about "no reason" is that people can't fathom why someone could just kill themselves without warning. There are often cases where someone has taken their own life for no discernible reason. Sometimes the signs are there, sometimes they're not. People are actually quite good at hiding what they're thinking.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 08 Jun 2013, 22:33
Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Carl-E on 08 Jun 2013, 23:16
Wow. 


That actually works. 


 :-P
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 08 Jun 2013, 23:34
The sessions with Dr. Buenvenida don't rule out a history of sexual abuse, not if Jeph decided it was none of our business and protected Faye's privacy by leaving it out.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Loki on 09 Jun 2013, 01:49

So what's your story vis-a-vis family drama? Mine's pretty standard, as you saw. Almost boringly standard.
Hm. It's part of a larger document I had started typing up about my life, so here goes.
-----
My father was roughly 40 when he married my mother, who was 19 at the time, against the understandable major resistance of her family. She became alienated from her family over this, and she didn't have that many social contacts to begin with, so she was basically left alone in an emotionally abusive relationship with my father. Now, my father never cheated on her or hit her (that I know of), but he would enforce his opinions upon her and always seek quarrels with people. He was also into some health programs which changed over time. I remember one of them said that having salted food was bad, so he got very angry with my mother when she accidentally left some salt on some potatoes that she didn't want to eat and gave them to me.

Another example is how he at some point believed that drinking only distilled water was good for you, so that was the only water we were allowed to drink. Until we went into a store which sold that water and asked if that was drinkable. The cashier looked at us like we had asked whether sulfuric acid was drinkable and said „...No.“ And that was the end to the water affair. It still surprises me looking back that that worked; normally my father would get in an argument with people over such things until they told him to go away or caved in.

So anyway, we moved to a new country. It quickly became apparent that neither of my parents had picked up the local language well enough to communicate with the authorities, cashiers etc or otherwise get by in everyday life. Kids, on the other hand, pick up languages pretty quickly... so I was not in school most of the time, but instead out with my parents helping them to claim child support from state or similar things (my parents weren't exactly qualified workers either, and my father had some severe health problems). And if a decision came from the authorities which my father did not agree with (which was quite often), it was me who would have to go with him to the authorities or translate appeal letters.

Imagine this. A child of 8-9 years translating stuff between a 50 year old man who does everything he can to avoid working and wants his son to translate everything exactly like he wants to, including all and any belligerent threats (or attempted bribes. Sometimes two sentences apart from each other) to the social worker, and said social worker who gets understandably irate by how the man treats him and the man's son. When you are a child and translating this, the frustrations and the anger at the other party get (even subconsciously) focused on you, because it's you who speaks the words. That was no fun.

Additionally, I had read some example letters and books on Germany's culture and knew that of course that shit would not fly. So I tried to persuade him to let it go when he inevitably threatened to complain to the man's superior. That this 9 year old with „much less life experience“ and therefore of course infinitely inferior to him would dare to question him thusly, irritated him even more.

Eventually, I started having spasms. Nothing major, but eventually enough to convince even my father to consult a hospital. (I say „even“, because he was normally distrustful of doctors. And lawyers. And people who weren't him, really.) My parents were told that I had epilepsy of unknown origin (and also short-sightedness). I later learned that epilepsy spasms may be triggered by stress if there is a predisposition to that, so that might have been it. I stayed in the hospital for three months.

That was good, because people noticed I wasn't visiting school and my parents got a stern talking to from the countries' equivalents of CPS workers. After that, I mostly went to school uninterrupted, but still helicoptered by one of my parents on the way from and to school. We lived literally one crosswalk and hundred meters from the school, and not in a dangerous neighbourhood either. The helicoptering continued until I was 15 or so, even to highschool which was 15 walking minutes away. That made me the only child in my grade which would get walked by parents to school. (sarcasm on) That, of course, earned me my classmates' utter respect (sarcasm off).

In primary school, I was also the only child who did not have access to a TV, until we had an assignment of tracking our TV watching habits for a week, so my father decided to buy a TV, something he had been opposed to because it contained "dangerous radiation"(tm) and was also bad to my eyes. But of course it could not fly that a child of his could not do an assignment for lack of a TV (what would everybody else think?), so a TV we got. Laughable, when I think back on it. Of course, because of the radiation and my poor eyes, I was allowed to watch it half an hour a day tops.
----

After that, it kinda strays into stuff I am not willing to share publicly.


Quote
I actually wish I had something more exciting. Like, "Well, I'm the product of consentual incest and was raised in a circus, and when I'd miss a jump my father would make me eat hákarl while my mom read me explicit love-letters from their courtship days at the family reunions."
I might have to steal that one.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Pilchard123 on 09 Jun 2013, 03:36
"dangerous radiation"(tm)

I have heard that this was true - if you sat on the floor close to them. The argument goes that CRT TVs often didn't have such good shielding on the panel underneath the screen so you would be in the path of any leaking X-rays (?).
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: tassaron on 09 Jun 2013, 10:55
Heh, I have this theory -- a parent's job is to be so horrible to their children that they'll wanna move out and start lives of their own when they turn eighteen.
That is an excellent quote.

I consider myself fairly lucky, because I always had one okay parent. She should have been in therapy a lot more and she made a lot of mistakes, but she did actually try to be a mom. Everyone else, I don't talk about.

More on-topic: I agree with the idea that never knowing exactly why Faye's dad died makes the story better. I think Jeph has made Faye's lack of closure into an important part of her character, so he would be unlikely to reveal the true reason, if there even is one. (Although I doubt it would be very much of a comfort for her to know anyway -- I don't think there's any reason that could be so solid as to make her think his suicide was a good idea, or even an understandable one.)
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Eddie 88 on 09 Jun 2013, 11:32
I guess I just wanna know whether Jeph actually knows why David killed himself. Not that it's important -- whenever people complain about whether an author knew something in a story was gonna happen from the beginning, I'm always the first one to say "what does it matter?"

Still, I'd like the weird vibe I got from the whole thingmajiggy to be put to bed. I'm sure I'm probably wrong, but I wanna know if it's that, at least.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 09 Jun 2013, 12:44
He did it for his daughter's sake, to spare her the embarrassment of having a breakdown and years of being emotionally crippled for no good reason.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: jwhouk on 09 Jun 2013, 17:30
Because the truly horrifying thing about suicide is, sometimes, there is no reason.

This - again - x 1,000.

Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: mustang6172 on 09 Jun 2013, 18:29
I've figured it out!

He did it because it was necessary for the plot.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 09 Jun 2013, 21:56
There's now a "Dysfunctional Families" thread in Relate containing the posts about forumgoers's own families of origin, where discussions of same should continue.

Back on topic, I was just afflicted by a mental picture of Faye somehow crossing into the real world and confronting Jeph: "Hello. My name is Faye Whitaker. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Eddie 88 on 10 Jun 2013, 01:20
More evidence of Faye's sexual dysfunction -- she's always just had a generally negative, pessimistic attitude towards sex. Can't find the comic, but in one Faye and Marten talk about all the great stuff about being older, and Faye goes, "Yeah yeah, get the typical male example of sex out of the way." Maybe it was Faye and Dora.

Anytime sex is brought up, Faye always exhibits a really negative attitude. Especially compared to someone like Raven (who's probably the most psychologically healthy of the cast), who has a really positive view of sex.

Even nudity, even in a presumably-platonic setting, is upsetting for Faye...
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=997

Not to mention her unhealthy body image, always complaining about her weight and such. You could potentially frame the sex and nudity stuff as a type of trust issue brough on by her father's suicide, but you can't really make the logical leap from parental suicide to negative body-image. The leap from sexual abuse to negative body-image is much shorter and more logical.

He did it for his daughter's sake, to spare her the embarrassment of having a breakdown and years of being emotionally crippled for no good reason.

Lol, well that backfired.

I've figured it out!

He did it because it was necessary for the plot.

You cunning bastard...
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Storel on 10 Jun 2013, 05:49
More evidence of Faye's sexual dysfunction -- she's always just had a generally negative, pessimistic attitude towards sex. Can't find the comic, but in one Faye and Marten talk about all the great stuff about being older, and Faye goes, "Yeah yeah, get the typical male example of sex out of the way." Maybe it was Faye and Dora.

Anytime sex is brought up, Faye always exhibits a really negative attitude. Especially compared to someone like Raven (who's probably the most psychologically healthy of the cast), who has a really positive view of sex.

Even nudity, even in a presumably-platonic setting, is upsetting for Faye...
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=997

Not to mention her unhealthy body image, always complaining about her weight and such. You could potentially frame the sex and nudity stuff as a type of trust issue brough on by her father's suicide, but you can't really make the logical leap from parental suicide to negative body-image. The leap from sexual abuse to negative body-image is much shorter and more logical.

Hmm. You're making some very interesting points here...

He did it for his daughter's sake, to spare her the embarrassment of having a breakdown and years of being emotionally crippled for no good reason.

Lol, well that backfired.

I think you missed IICIH's point (see the emphasized part). IICIH is implying that Faye's father knew Fay was about to have a breakdown and be emotionally crippled for years, and he didn't want that to happen to her for no good reason. So he committed suicide to give her a good reason...  :roll:
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 10 Jun 2013, 06:12
Yes, that's what I meant.

Yet another factette to toss in the soup is that she managed a physical relationship (Sven) before she could handle attachment. That could be used as an argument either way.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: DrBear on 10 Jun 2013, 08:30
There's now a "Dysfunctional Families" thread in Relate containing the posts about forumgoers's own families of origin, where discussions of same should continue.

Back on topic, I was just afflicted by a mental picture of Faye somehow crossing into the real world and confronting Jeph: "Hello. My name is Faye Whitaker. You killed my father. Prepared to die."
Actually, I could see this as a guest comic. WILLIS! MILHOLLAND! FRONT AND CENTER!
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Mr_Rose on 10 Jun 2013, 08:38
Here's an answer: he didn't kill himself. He's actually the director of the DoKYA and what Faye saw was an acephalic clone being controlled by an AI. Steve knows of Director Whitaker of course, but either hasn't made the connection (does he even know about Faye's story?) or has been sworn to secrecy. As for why? Plausible deniability; who better to head up an ultra-secret paramilitary organisation than a dead man?
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Masterpiece on 10 Jun 2013, 08:47
This is now my head cannon.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Storel on 10 Jun 2013, 11:01
What does DoYKA stand for? I don't recall Steve ever mentioning the name of the agency he works for.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Carl-E on 10 Jun 2013, 11:02
Department of Kicking Your Ass. 


And Masterpiece, be careful with that thing - you never know when they're going to go off...  ;)
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Loki on 10 Jun 2013, 14:45
Link to the strip in question (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1350).
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: ThomasEll on 10 Jun 2013, 15:39
Link to the strip in question (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1350).

I didn't twig that the woman who was toruting Steve was also his girlfriend (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1406)
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Zebediah on 10 Jun 2013, 17:53
It happens all the time in Bond movies. So why not for Steve too?
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: HappyHavoc on 10 Jun 2013, 18:14
Man this is a hard one, so many reasons for why he might have done it
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 10 Jun 2013, 19:09
It was not presented as being a reason, but I think Faye's mom had a point when she said "He was a God-damned Jackass who didn't deserve the wonderful family he had". As good an explanation as any and truer than any excuse he could have come up with.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: TheEvilDog on 10 Jun 2013, 22:05
With regards to Faye's attitude towards sex, bear in mind that from the looks of it, Faye comes from a very religious family, quite possibly in one of the stronger Baptist areas. Growing up in an area like that, well the religious education system practically whacks it into people's head that sex outside of marriage is wrong and that positions other than the missionary position means you're going to hell.

Or at the very least sex was not something openly discussed in Faye's family. Thus Faye has had limited experience talking about sex, which would have been particularly jarring when she moved north and started working with Dora.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 10 Jun 2013, 22:09
True, but she was sexually active before she even left for college.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Loki on 11 Jun 2013, 00:05
It was not presented as being a reason, but I think Faye's mom had a point when she said "He was a God-damned Jackass who didn't deserve the wonderful family he had". As good an explanation as any and truer than any excuse he could have come up with.

Ergh. What exactly is your line of reasoning there?
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 11 Jun 2013, 00:24
Summarizable as "he killed himself because he was a stupid jackass".
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: bhtooefr on 11 Jun 2013, 06:45
True, but she was sexually active before she even left for college.
And the areas of the US that use shame and abstinence-only education to deter sex, are the areas with the highest teenage pregnancy rates (and IIRC the highest rates of sexual activity amongst teenagers, too).

But it doesn't mean that they have healthy attitudes about sex, it means that they still have it while thinking it's evil.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: sitnspin on 11 Jun 2013, 07:38
Summarizable as "he killed himself because he was a stupid jackass".

Or, you know, mentally ill. As someone with a long history of mental illness, as well as knowing many who succumbed to it,  I find the way so many people write off suicide as cowardly or selfish to be very insulting. Mental illness is a real thing, it is a medical condition as real as cancer or lupus,  not something to be dismissed as a moral failing. In a society that places such a heavy stigma on mental illness, especially for men, it is quite common for a condition to go untreated until it becomes overwhelming.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: TheEvilDog on 11 Jun 2013, 07:39
Well I was going to reply to the previous comment, but bhtooefr got there before me.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Loki on 11 Jun 2013, 07:43
And sitnspin beat me.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 11 Jun 2013, 10:20
My reaction would be utterly different if he'd had any history of depression. Someone would have noticed. It's not a subtle thing when someone spends hours staring at the ceiling when the electricity is a few days from being cut off because even though there's plenty of money to pay the bills they've been piling up unopened because the person can't cope with opening them. Nor when lying on the ancient pile of dirty laundry makes more sense than washing it and the smell doesn't matter because the person hasn't had the get-up-and-go to even take a shower for days.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Loki on 11 Jun 2013, 10:43
There are varying degrees of depression. It can be relatively easy to appear normal when you are around other people (and it may even lift your spirits a bit), but that doesn't mean that when you are alone, sitting in front of your computer at one o'clock in the morning, because you just cannot bring yourself to stand up and walk a few steps to your bed; that then thoughts don't start creeping up about how worthless you are and how much you suck because you cannot even stand up and because you won't seek help either and the others won't understand anyway and even if they did they would only pretend to care because they don't really like you and you are painfully aware of the fact that most people care about 150 other people at most anyway and why should anyone care about YOU.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: sitnspin on 11 Jun 2013, 10:54
"Someone would have noticed". Right... cos it always manifests itself that blatantly. And people always notice signs. Trust me, someone with depression can hide in plain sight, people often ignore what they don't want or expect to see.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Daniel Patrick Moynihan on 11 Jun 2013, 11:14
Was there a case where Faye even allowed a little bit of friendly physical contact from Marten while sober?

Tthree times, when Faye was miserable:  when he hugged her outside CoD (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=342), but lost the chance to do it again! During the Talk (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=505) (thanks ThomasEll), and shortly before the breakup (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1741).

Don't forget my favorite strip, which is even somewhat relevant!
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1564
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: TinPenguin on 11 Jun 2013, 13:38
Don't forget my favorite strip, which is even somewhat relevant!
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1564

I've just realised that in panel 2b, Faye has actual tears in her eyes. I knew she was distressed in that comic, but I'd never noticed that before. Is this the only time we've seen Faye cry (excluding flashbacks)?
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Valdís on 11 Jun 2013, 14:01
My reaction would be utterly different if he'd had any history of depression. Someone would have noticed.

*Ahem* (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,27809.msg1142776.html#msg1142776)

BULL! (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,28862.msg1146924.html#msg1146924)

SHIT! (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,28862.msg1146927.html#msg1146927)


Also I'll just go "+1 Sitnspin" and add that I'm incredibly sick of people essentially trying to guilt suicidal people into staying alive with how it'd traumatize their family. Just.. very sick of it. You're not entitled to have someone stay alive and it's not them being immoral for "hurting you", even if I'm familiar with having the instinctual response of telling someone "If that happened it'd break me, please don't.." and I hate myself for that. Looking at the stuff associated Mr. Whitaker's suicide is actually pretty unnerving.

"He was a God-damned Jackass who didn't deserve the wonderful family he had"
"I'm willing to bet that most cemetaries have a rule prohibiting negative epitaphs. I'd say if anyone deserves one it's certainly Faye's dad."
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Daniel Patrick Moynihan on 11 Jun 2013, 14:07
There were a couple times in the Talk, a couple times when Marten and Dora started dating, and at least once after Sven banged Gina Riversmith.  So 567,587, 1343 at least. 
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: TinPenguin on 11 Jun 2013, 14:39
Hmm, yes, I remember those now. Come to think of it, we've probably seen Faye cry more than anyone else... and fair enough, she's got plenty to be upset about.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Welu on 11 Jun 2013, 15:30
I recently told someone at work about my issues with depression as it was affecting my work. I told them about the last time I had a bad rut, which was a couple months long and I was working at the same place. They said, "I never knew." It took so much of me to respond, "You weren't meant to."

Whatever pushed Faye's dad over the edge, it must have been very personal and/or very private. If it was, for example, terrible debt, the family would have found out after his death. If the issue was an outside source.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: ThomasEll on 11 Jun 2013, 16:22
So I think that really the two most likely contenders for him killing himself are it either being some internal depression that he had been keeping secret, possibly for a long time (the most likely), or that it was actually a cover up so he could become the Director of DoKYA (the version I prefer, although probably not actually very likely  :-P).



I don't think that him sexually abusing Faye is likely at all, if that was the case then it would have been (or should have been) picked up during Faye's therapy sessions, not to mention the fact that she was about twenty when he did it, so I would think that she would be able to remember that. I also don't agree with the idea that she has any sexual dysfunction, her problem comes from not being able (or rather wanting) to form the emotional attachment necessary for a healthy relationship. This is why she is able to have sex with Sven and at the same time justify to herself that it's not a relationship because she didn't particularly like him (although I think that if he hadn't cheated on her then it could have possibly become a relationship).

Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Zebediah on 11 Jun 2013, 16:54
Faye and Sven in an actual relationship? What would that be like?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: GarandMarine on 11 Jun 2013, 17:00
This thread title makes me think of horrible responses that are purely mean spirited.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 11 Jun 2013, 17:25
I'm thinking of the guy mentioned in one of the hardcopy books who wrote Jeph to say that he'd gotten help instead of killing himself when he read The Talk and realized he couldn't do something like that to his daughter.

It is entirely possible that I can't see straight on this subject due to my family background.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Valdís on 11 Jun 2013, 18:13
It is entirely possible that I can't see straight on this subject due to my family background.

On the other hand we have me picturing people openly saying and wanting to put "[*He] was an idiot who didn't deserve to be loved" over my grave and how I deserved to be spoken of like that for not being able to keep going. Feels great.

*Because let's face it: They would have.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: mustang6172 on 11 Jun 2013, 18:38
With regards to Faye's attitude towards sex, bear in mind that from the looks of it, Faye comes from a very religious family, quite possibly in one of the stronger Baptist areas. Growing up in an area like that, well the religious education system practically whacks it into people's head that sex outside of marriage is wrong and that positions other than the missionary position means you're going to hell.

Or at the very least sex was not something openly discussed in Faye's family. Thus Faye has had limited experience talking about sex, which would have been particularly jarring when she moved north and started working with Dora.

I'm sorry, but Faye does not come from a very religious family. (http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=232)

But she did talk about sex... with her father. (http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=502)

I think it's pretty clear that any dysfunction Faye had was with intimacy in general, not sex.  This is why she would sleep with (but not date) Sven.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: bhtooefr on 11 Jun 2013, 18:43
However, she was raised in the southern US.

Not exactly the most tolerant area.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: mustang6172 on 11 Jun 2013, 19:05
Neither Faye nor her mother have a problem with Amanda being gay.  Stereotypes are not helping.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Carl-E on 11 Jun 2013, 19:06
Depends on "rurality".  The bigger metro areas are ... well, pretty metropolitan.  Atlanta, Memphis, Charlotte, and of course, New Orleans.  Being southern doesn't automatically mean religious or repressed! 


On Mr. Whittaker's potential mental illness, I'd also like to point out some of the later onset things that can happen.  Depression is one, of course, and can strike at any time; so are things like schizophrenia, early onset dementia and / or alzheimers, and several other illnesses. 

Now, before someone shouts that the family would have noticed, I'd like to point out that in the early stages of all these (and many other) problems, the first person to notice is the subject / victim / patient.  And if her father thought he might be going insane, and perhaps thought he'd "wind up like crazy uncle Joe" or something, he may have thought that the only way to avoid such a fate was suicide. 

Or perhaps the illness itself convinced him that it was what he had to do.  And that, until it convinced him of this, he had to keep up appearances.  Go through the motions.  It's surprisingly easy when people expect you to be a certain way to just give them what they expect, rather than go through the questioning and problems that bizarre behaviour leads to...
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: sitnspin on 11 Jun 2013, 19:33
I personally hid the full extent of my mental illness for years. The depression was obvious as I had attempted suicide a few times, but the psychotic features I managed to hide from doctors even while institutionalized. It is remarkably easy to hide parts of yourself, even from professionals, let alone untrained observers. It is very easy for even sever mental illness to go unnoticed. We wouldn't have so many tragic incidents if it was not.

And that doesn't even take into account sudden onset. Schizophrenia can set in very rapidly and short term psychotic breaks are far more common than most people realise.

Suicidal ideation is a awful thing to live with and very few people make the decision lightly.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 11 Jun 2013, 20:41
It is entirely possible that I can't see straight on this subject due to my family background.

On the other hand we have me picturing people openly saying and wanting to put "[*He] was an idiot who didn't deserve to be loved" over my grave and how I deserved to be spoken of like that for not being able to keep going. Feels great.

*Because let's face it: They would have.

I give you my word that I will not let my pain and anger over what my brother did to us interfere with my respect for you in any way.

It does, however, predispose me to understand the feelings of the surviving Whitakers.

Social conservatism topic: Mrs. Whitaker did not react well to Amanda being gay! Her eventual acceptance was grudging.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: TheEvilDog on 11 Jun 2013, 20:55
I'm sorry, but Faye does not come from a very religious family. (http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=232)

I think it's pretty clear that any dysfunction Faye had was with intimacy in general, not sex.  This is why she would sleep with (but not date) Sven.

Her mother was Baptist and disapproved of several things, Faye's father's weekly bourbon milkshake (http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=503) for one. Presuming then that her mother disapproved of one shot of bourbon, how would her mother feel if she heard about her eldest daughter losing her virginity? Which would explain why Faye talked to her father, he probably (we don't know for sure) wasn't Baptist and while displeased, he comforted her.

From my personal experience, there's one parent who is kind of cool about certain things, I remember when I was about 15 my father found my stash of porn magazines. I expected him to be furious, instead he told me he put them somewhere else and that I should hide them in a better location because we both knew if my mother found them I would have not heard the end of it...ever. In Faye's case, that parent was her father.

With regards to Faye and Sven, that was pretty much summed up by Zebediah - two people who hate each having sex. Unresolved sexual tension that got resolved without a bang and more like a damp squib.

Back to the main point of the topic. The most telling reason if from Faye in 505 (http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=505).
"That's just it-- I don't know! Nobody knows! He didn't leave a note. If he was depressed it never showed. Even mom has no idea. We... we all loved him so much. It just came out of nowhere. What could it have possibly been? What was so wrong that he had to keep it a secret from everyone he knew, even from his f-fuckin' FAMILY, so he could b-blow his brains out? What did we miss? What did we do wrong? How could he just abandon us like that? How could just abandon m-ME like that? He ruined our lives!"

There was no letter, no message as to why he was ending his life. Even his own wife can't explain why, the woman he married and had two children with. He was loved by his family, there wasn't any trouble that they knew of and yet one morning he went out and shot himself. Which brings up my earlier point, the absolutely horrifying that about suicide is that there isn't always a reason.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: sitnspin on 11 Jun 2013, 21:12
I give you my word that I will not let my pain and anger over what my brother did to us interfere with my respect for you in any way.

It does, however, predispose me to understand the feelings of the surviving Whitakers.

Having lost more than my fair share of loved ones, I can and do sympathize with your loss. In the end, it was to avoid hurting my gf at the time (later my wife) that I finally sought real help in earnest. As a continuing (so far) survivor of mental illness, I also have an understandable sympathy with my fellow sufferers, both those still alive and those who did not survive. I think it is important to have compassion for both sides in this situation. Mental illness is difficult for the ones with the illness and for their loved ones with plenty of suffering to go around. Compassion is the key to the situation rather than blame. Once we, as a society, learn to see mental illness as a real medical condition rather than weakness of character perhaps we can put aside the blaming and stigma and actually start to help those affected, both the ill and their families. 

Being angry with someone for committing suicide is akin to being angry with someone who succumbed to cancer, understandable but not exactly fair or rational.  Emotions are not rational, I admit, and it is not uncommon to be angry with a departed loved one even when their death was completely out of their hands. I, personally, had a fair amount of anger toward my wife for dying and she died when we were struck my a drunk driver while fully recognizing how irrational that anger was. Pain and loss often elicits an anger response. Awareness of the irrationality of it did help me to let go of it (for the most part).

Quote
Social conservatism topic: Mrs. Whitaker did not react well to Amanda being gay! Her eventual acceptance was grudging.
Social conservatism is not limited to the religious, I can attest to this from experience, but it was fairly well established that Faye's mom is Baptist, a decidedly conservative religious sect.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: ThomasEll on 12 Jun 2013, 02:27
Faye and Sven in an actual relationship? What would that be like?

(click to show/hide)

Maybe, but to be honest I don't think that Sven ever really hated Faye. And Faye starts to come round to him (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=951) before actually hooking up with him. Faye didn't like the fact that he slept around, and I think that if he could have brought himself to be monogamous with her then he could have turned it into a relationship.

Edited to add an equals sign - Method
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: jwhouk on 12 Jun 2013, 05:52
There is one aspect that I think may have contributed: the Kentucky Bourbon Milkshake.

Perhaps alcoholism ran in the family, and Dad kept it to himself - until he realized that one day that he was turning into his father/uncle/whatever?

I'd be grabbing at straws with that theory, but it's something Jeph could have left himself an out for if he ever wanted Faye to discover a reason.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Carl-E on 12 Jun 2013, 22:37
Interesting - especially since "No one knew why", and also no one (except Faye) knew about the drinking. 

And I'm sure the milkshake wasn't the only way he snuck a drink.  Or two...
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: sitnspin on 13 Jun 2013, 07:08
Not necessarily alcoholism, but it is entirely likely he was using the alcohol to self-medicate whatever illness he did have. That is quite common with undiagnosed and untreated mental illness.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Eddie 88 on 14 Jun 2013, 12:09
Quote from: Storel
He did it for his daughter's sake, to spare her the embarrassment of having a breakdown and years of being emotionally crippled for no good reason.

Lol, well that backfired.

I think you missed IICIH's point (see the emphasized part). IICIH is implying that Faye's father knew Fay was about to have a breakdown and be emotionally crippled for years, and he didn't want that to happen to her for no good reason. So he committed suicide to give her a good reason...  :roll:

Lol, that's dark.

Yes, that's what I meant.

Yet another factette to toss in the soup is that she managed a physical relationship (Sven) before she could handle attachment. That could be used as an argument either way.

Or both ways. I'm no expert (though I was a Psych major before my medical problems put my entire life on hold -_-), but I think oftentimes with sexual abuse, when a person finally starts to confront those memories and feelings, they find that sex - which presumably freaked them out the most - is actually easier than a complete relationship. With casual sex, there's a certain emotional distance, you can hold the thing at arms length, and that gives you a modicum of control and power over it. And if things go bad, hey, it was just sex, you can toss it aside easily (though obviously Faye didn't do all that).

Here's an answer: he didn't kill himself. He's actually the director of the DoKYA and what Faye saw was an acephalic clone being controlled by an AI. Steve knows of Director Whitaker of course, but either hasn't made the connection (does he even know about Faye's story?) or has been sworn to secrecy. As for why? Plausible deniability; who better to head up an ultra-secret paramilitary organisation than a dead man?

Aaand now I want a crack-fanfic expanding on this idea.

It was not presented as being a reason, but I think Faye's mom had a point when she said "He was a God-damned Jackass who didn't deserve the wonderful family he had". As good an explanation as any and truer than any excuse he could have come up with.

I think she was disparaging him for committing suicide -- saying he's a jerk for having left his family like that. She wasn't saying that he was a jerk while he was alive.

With regards to Faye's attitude towards sex, bear in mind that from the looks of it, Faye comes from a very religious family, quite possibly in one of the stronger Baptist areas. Growing up in an area like that, well the religious education system practically whacks it into people's head that sex outside of marriage is wrong and that positions other than the missionary position means you're going to hell.

Or at the very least sex was not something openly discussed in Faye's family. Thus Faye has had limited experience talking about sex, which would have been particularly jarring when she moved north and started working with Dora.

But a religious upbringing wouldn't necessarily give you a negative self-body image, and more importantly, Faye wants to be okay with sex, she knows it's bogus that she's not. If she was just experiencing the aftereffects of a strict religious upbringing, she'd be all "sex is a sin, God this, God that, blee bloo blop."

Summarizable as "he killed himself because he was a stupid jackass".

Or, you know, mentally ill. As someone with a long history of mental illness, as well as knowing many who succumbed to it,  I find the way so many people write off suicide as cowardly or selfish to be very insulting. Mental illness is a real thing, it is a medical condition as real as cancer or lupus,  not something to be dismissed as a moral failing. In a society that places such a heavy stigma on mental illness, especially for men, it is quite common for a condition to go untreated until it becomes overwhelming.

Faye's mom was just blowing off some steam, just speaking out of hurt, I think, not really rationally condemning the very notion of suicide and mental health problems.

There are varying degrees of depression. It can be relatively easy to appear normal when you are around other people (and it may even lift your spirits a bit), but that doesn't mean that when you are alone, sitting in front of your computer at one o'clock in the morning, because you just cannot bring yourself to stand up and walk a few steps to your bed; that then thoughts don't start creeping up about how worthless you are and how much you suck because you cannot even stand up and because you won't seek help either and the others won't understand anyway and even if they did they would only pretend to care because they don't really like you and you are painfully aware of the fact that most people care about 150 other people at most anyway and why should anyone care about YOU.

Pokemon fans care about 151 other people.

Was there a case where Faye even allowed a little bit of friendly physical contact from Marten while sober?

Tthree times, when Faye was miserable:  when he hugged her outside CoD (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=342), but lost the chance to do it again! During the Talk (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=505) (thanks ThomasEll), and shortly before the breakup (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1741).

Don't forget my favorite strip, which is even somewhat relevant!
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1564

Off-topic: this is my favorite strip...
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1399

My reaction would be utterly different if he'd had any history of depression. Someone would have noticed.

*Ahem* (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,27809.msg1142776.html#msg1142776)

BULL! (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,28862.msg1146924.html#msg1146924)

SHIT! (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,28862.msg1146927.html#msg1146927)


Also I'll just go "+1 Sitnspin" and add that I'm incredibly sick of people essentially trying to guilt suicidal people into staying alive with how it'd traumatize their family. Just.. very sick of it. You're not entitled to have someone stay alive and it's not them being immoral for "hurting you", even if I'm familiar with having the instinctual response of telling someone "If that happened it'd break me, please don't.." and I hate myself for that. Looking at the stuff associated Mr. Whitaker's suicide is actually pretty unnerving.

"He was a God-damned Jackass who didn't deserve the wonderful family he had"
"I'm willing to bet that most cemetaries have a rule prohibiting negative epitaphs. I'd say if anyone deserves one it's certainly Faye's dad."

I'm reminded of this, which I got linked to on Facebook awhile ago...
hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2013/05/depression-part-two.html
"If I go to therapy will you stop crying?"

I recently told someone at work about my issues with depression as it was affecting my work. I told them about the last time I had a bad rut, which was a couple months long and I was working at the same place. They said, "I never knew." It took so much of me to respond, "You weren't meant to."

Whatever pushed Faye's dad over the edge, it must have been very personal and/or very private. If it was, for example, terrible debt, the family would have found out after his death. If the issue was an outside source.

Yeah, it had to've been something purely inside him. If it was external, it would've come to light after his death.

So I think that really the two most likely contenders for him killing himself are it either being some internal depression that he had been keeping secret, possibly for a long time (the most likely), or that it was actually a cover up so he could become the Director of DoKYA (the version I prefer, although probably not actually very likely  :-P).



I don't think that him sexually abusing Faye is likely at all, if that was the case then it would have been (or should have been) picked up during Faye's therapy sessions, not to mention the fact that she was about twenty when he did it, so I would think that she would be able to remember that. I also don't agree with the idea that she has any sexual dysfunction, her problem comes from not being able (or rather wanting) to form the emotional attachment necessary for a healthy relationship. This is why she is able to have sex with Sven and at the same time justify to herself that it's not a relationship because she didn't particularly like him (although I think that if he hadn't cheated on her then it could have possibly become a relationship).

My thought was that he sexually abused her when she was a little kid, not when she was twenty. It just so happened to overwhelm him and cause him to take his own life after she left for college. Possibly because her leaving for college made him really think about his relationship with his little girl, and finally put enough distance between them, temporally and spatially, for him to self-analyze and become distraught.

I'm curious how you'd explain her negative body-image and general negative attitude towards sex itself, if there was no sexual abuse.

By the way, everyone always says Sven "cheated on Faye." Is this later on, or are you all referring to the Gina Riversmith thing? He and Faye weren't in a monogamous relationship, I wouldn't call that cheating. They were "just two people having fun," they even talked about it. Clearly, Faye was working up the courage and mental energies to turn it into something more, but at the time Sven banged Gina, he and Faye weren't dating.

Faye and Sven in an actual relationship? What would that be like?

(click to show/hide)

*shrugs*

I always thought they'd make a good couple. Marten's too self-serving and bitter about the whole Faye thing for them to've ever made it work ("I fix chicks' issues so they can go bang other guys, waaaah"). His "crimes" are in his personality. Sven's crimes are in his actions (sleeping around, lying his ass off to avoid discomfort, etc.). That stuff aside (stuff he pretty much stopped after sleeping with Gina), he's a decent guy.

Not that whether someone's decent or not has anything to do with their success in relationships (if only...), but I think Sven and Faye make a good couple regardless; she kickstarts his conscience, he kickstarts her self-esteem.

This thread title makes me think of horrible responses that are purely mean spirited.

Let's hear 'em!

I'm thinking of the guy mentioned in one of the hardcopy books who wrote Jeph to say that he'd gotten help instead of killing himself when he read The Talk and realized he couldn't do something like that to his daughter.

It is entirely possible that I can't see straight on this subject due to my family background.
It is entirely possible that I can't see straight on this subject due to my family background.

On the other hand we have me picturing people openly saying and wanting to put "[*He] was an idiot who didn't deserve to be loved" over my grave and how I deserved to be spoken of like that for not being able to keep going. Feels great.

*Because let's face it: They would have.

IMO, it's not something you can talk about categorically; it's dependent upon the individual and the circumstances. One shouldn't automatically jump to "suicide is the coward's way out, think of all the harm you'll cause others, you selfish jerk" but, Valdis, the fact remains that over 90% of people who are forcibly prevented from committing suicide are later happy about it, and go on to recover. Being depressed completely warps and twists your fundamental view of reality, so you also can't say, "suicide is a right, who cares what it does to other people, you just don't understand."

Depends on "rurality".  The bigger metro areas are ... well, pretty metropolitan.  Atlanta, Memphis, Charlotte, and of course, New Orleans.  Being southern doesn't automatically mean religious or repressed! 


On Mr. Whittaker's potential mental illness, I'd also like to point out some of the later onset things that can happen.  Depression is one, of course, and can strike at any time; so are things like schizophrenia, early onset dementia and / or alzheimers, and several other illnesses. 

Now, before someone shouts that the family would have noticed, I'd like to point out that in the early stages of all these (and many other) problems, the first person to notice is the subject / victim / patient.  And if her father thought he might be going insane, and perhaps thought he'd "wind up like crazy uncle Joe" or something, he may have thought that the only way to avoid such a fate was suicide. 

Or perhaps the illness itself convinced him that it was what he had to do.  And that, until it convinced him of this, he had to keep up appearances.  Go through the motions.  It's surprisingly easy when people expect you to be a certain way to just give them what they expect, rather than go through the questioning and problems that bizarre behaviour leads to...

Though, to nitpick, we'd've most likely heard about it if there was a "crazy" person in the Whitaker family. In the wake of David's death, someone would surely have mentioned it. "Well, look at Uncle Joe; it runs in the family."

And I'll reiterate from personal experience what others keep saying -- you can most definitely hide depression. It doesn't even take that much effort when the people around you don't want to see it. It's easy to pretend nothings wrong when nobody's reaching out to you. Er, not that it's their responsibility, of course, but still.

Social conservatism topic: Mrs. Whitaker did not react well to Amanda being gay! Her eventual acceptance was grudging.

When Faye visited her mom, though, she didn't seem super-religious. She did mention going to church, but lots of people do that who aren't actually very religious. Mrs. Whitaker didn't mention Jesus or the Bible or anything a single time during Faye's visit -- and Faye's visit was mainly to visit her father's grave, so if Mrs. Whitaker was super-religious, you'd think it would've come up.

So yeah, I don't think the Whitakers were especially religious. Any more than is the norm in religious-ey parts of the nation.

Once we, as a society, learn to see mental illness as a real medical condition rather than weakness of character perhaps we can put aside the blaming and stigma and actually start to help those affected, both the ill and their families.

Wow, I haven't QFT'd since like, 2005.

There is one aspect that I think may have contributed: the Kentucky Bourbon Milkshake.

Perhaps alcoholism ran in the family, and Dad kept it to himself - until he realized that one day that he was turning into his father/uncle/whatever?

I'd be grabbing at straws with that theory, but it's something Jeph could have left himself an out for if he ever wanted Faye to discover a reason.

It was actually the bourbon milkshake that originally pricked my ears up and made me think something sinister might've been going on. Then again, I have an intense hatred of alcohol, so I'm biased, but yeah. Although honestly, given the drinking habits of the entire QC cast and of Jeph himself, I don't think the milkshake was intended to mean anything.

Not necessarily alcoholism, but it is entirely likely he was using the alcohol to self-medicate whatever illness he did have. That is quite common with undiagnosed and untreated mental illness.

Unfortunately, it's also common with diagnosed mental illness when the sufferer rejects treatment...
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Loki on 14 Jun 2013, 13:29
I'm curious how you'd explain her negative body-image and general negative attitude towards sex itself, if there was no sexual abuse.

...can we have have sources on her having negative body-image and negative attitude towards sex and not relationships? Because while girl certainly has abandonment issues, I have yet to see evidence of her having problems with sex. Are we talking about how she went to buy a vibrator with Dora or what?

As to the body-image: she has a Rubenesque body shape. Society will gladly tell you this is bad.

Quote
Pokemon fans care about 151 other people.
I lol'd. Incidentally, "hardcore" Pokémon fans will insist there are only 150 Pokémon and Mewtwo "doesn't count".
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 14 Jun 2013, 13:56
Not only is Faye in America, where women are viciously shamed for not being emaciated, but her own sister has poked fun at her figure.

There was no family history of depression on Fayedad's side of the family: Fayemom said so explicitly.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: ThomasEll on 14 Jun 2013, 14:56

So I think that really the two most likely contenders for him killing himself are it either being some internal depression that he had been keeping secret, possibly for a long time (the most likely), or that it was actually a cover up so he could become the Director of DoKYA (the version I prefer, although probably not actually very likely  :-P).



I don't think that him sexually abusing Faye is likely at all, if that was the case then it would have been (or should have been) picked up during Faye's therapy sessions, not to mention the fact that she was about twenty when he did it, so I would think that she would be able to remember that. I also don't agree with the idea that she has any sexual dysfunction, her problem comes from not being able (or rather wanting) to form the emotional attachment necessary for a healthy relationship. This is why she is able to have sex with Sven and at the same time justify to herself that it's not a relationship because she didn't particularly like him (although I think that if he hadn't cheated on her then it could have possibly become a relationship).

My thought was that he sexually abused her when she was a little kid, not when she was twenty. It just so happened to overwhelm him and cause him to take his own life after she left for college. Possibly because her leaving for college made him really think about his relationship with his little girl, and finally put enough distance between them, temporally and spatially, for him to self-analyze and become distraught.

I'm curious how you'd explain her negative body-image and general negative attitude towards sex itself, if there was no sexual abuse.

By the way, everyone always says Sven "cheated on Faye." Is this later on, or are you all referring to the Gina Riversmith thing? He and Faye weren't in a monogamous relationship, I wouldn't call that cheating. They were "just two people having fun," they even talked about it. Clearly, Faye was working up the courage and mental energies to turn it into something more, but at the time Sven banged Gina, he and Faye weren't dating.


Faye directly tells Sven that if he sleeps with someone else then that will be the end of it. (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1307) Now Sven doesn't actually say "OK" to that, but still.



As for her negative attitude towards her body, that's not really hard to explain. I mean, I think that pretty much everyone has something about their body that they aren't happy with, and some more than others. She never really shows any negative attitudes towards sex though, the main problem for her before the talk was that she had massive anxiety towards someone leaving her.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Valdís on 14 Jun 2013, 21:56
but, Valdis, the fact remains that over 90% of people who are forcibly prevented from committing suicide are later happy about it, and go on to recover. Being depressed completely warps and twists your fundamental view of reality, so you also can't say, "suicide is a right, who cares what it does to other people, you just don't understand."

[Re: You're crazy] ..That's not true. I don't see how you could try to justify saying depressed people have lost all touch with reality. Sometimes being in touch with reality doesn't exactly help. Which is also why I'd personally describe it more as a remission than a recovery - just hoping for an indefinite one.

[Re: Forcible prevention] Only potentially true if for the right reasons, not as a general success/failure rate. Personally I would've rather died if not. Again, comes down to the selfishness of the people who say not to 'do that to them'. It would not be in my best interest to "make me adjusted" to that life (through drugs/therapy/ECT/whatever). Many a time has that gone through my head, the only conclusion those thoughts have ever pictured is bleeding out.

[Re: Can't say..] Watch me: Suicide is a right and bodily autonomy is sacrosanct - yes, even when someone says you're crazy. I don't care how it hurts the rest of us when it happens, including how badly it ends up hurting myself. Just because this is an undesirable outcome to hopefully be prevented doesn't mean there aren't fates worse than death or decisions others ultimately don't have the right to make for you.

Even if I'm starting to get some shitty guilt over some of the causes of it at least having possible future solutions for me (even if only partially). That's not.. uh.. a "luxury" that some others have, I suppose? Feelings are weird.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Eddie 88 on 14 Jun 2013, 23:40
I'm curious how you'd explain her negative body-image and general negative attitude towards sex itself, if there was no sexual abuse.

...can we have have sources on her having negative body-image and negative attitude towards sex and not relationships? Because while girl certainly has abandonment issues, I have yet to see evidence of her having problems with sex. Are we talking about how she went to buy a vibrator with Dora or what?

As to the body-image: she has a Rubenesque body shape. Society will gladly tell you this is bad.
As for negative attitudes towards sex, I'll drum up some specific strips later (I'm too tired right now), but like I said before, compare Faye's response anytime anybody's talking about or mentions sex to Dora's or Raven's. Dora and Raven clearly have a positive view of sex, they see it as fun, they're comfortable making jokes, etc. Faye's response is always "ugh, sex." It typically comes off as denigration -- Faye acting like Dora is somehow lowering herself or acting improper by liking sex, Faye presenting the attitude that she's above such base desires.

As for the body image -- society schmoschmiety; nobody's making fun of her for being fat. In fact, everyone's always telling her she's attractive. She's dead set on this "woe is me I'm chunky" attitude, though. Probably not as much anymore (remember, I'm three years behind), but still.

Quote
Pokemon fans care about 151 other people.
I lol'd. Incidentally, "hardcore" Pokémon fans will insist there are only 150 Pokémon and Mewtwo "doesn't count".

Heh, never heard that one. Have you seen Mewthree?


So I think that really the two most likely contenders for him killing himself are it either being some internal depression that he had been keeping secret, possibly for a long time (the most likely), or that it was actually a cover up so he could become the Director of DoKYA (the version I prefer, although probably not actually very likely  :-P).



I don't think that him sexually abusing Faye is likely at all, if that was the case then it would have been (or should have been) picked up during Faye's therapy sessions, not to mention the fact that she was about twenty when he did it, so I would think that she would be able to remember that. I also don't agree with the idea that she has any sexual dysfunction, her problem comes from not being able (or rather wanting) to form the emotional attachment necessary for a healthy relationship. This is why she is able to have sex with Sven and at the same time justify to herself that it's not a relationship because she didn't particularly like him (although I think that if he hadn't cheated on her then it could have possibly become a relationship).

My thought was that he sexually abused her when she was a little kid, not when she was twenty. It just so happened to overwhelm him and cause him to take his own life after she left for college. Possibly because her leaving for college made him really think about his relationship with his little girl, and finally put enough distance between them, temporally and spatially, for him to self-analyze and become distraught.

I'm curious how you'd explain her negative body-image and general negative attitude towards sex itself, if there was no sexual abuse.

By the way, everyone always says Sven "cheated on Faye." Is this later on, or are you all referring to the Gina Riversmith thing? He and Faye weren't in a monogamous relationship, I wouldn't call that cheating. They were "just two people having fun," they even talked about it. Clearly, Faye was working up the courage and mental energies to turn it into something more, but at the time Sven banged Gina, he and Faye weren't dating.


Faye directly tells Sven that if he sleeps with someone else then that will be the end of it. (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1307) Now Sven doesn't actually say "OK" to that, but still.

Not "but still" -- they were never in a monogamous relationship. Maybe what he did was dick-y, but it definitely wasn't cheating. And honestly, I don't even think it was particularly dick-y. Everyone has the right to choose how they live their lives. In a relationship, no one person's right in that regard is more or less important than anyone else's. If Sven wants casual sex, that's his right. If Faye wants to give him an ultimatum ("sex someone else and we're through"), that's her right. Just because Faye was hurt by Sven's actions doesn't make his actions wrong; he was well within his rights to have sex with whoever he wanted to.

As for her negative attitude towards her body, that's not really hard to explain. I mean, I think that pretty much everyone has something about their body that they aren't happy with, and some more than others. She never really shows any negative attitudes towards sex though, the main problem for her before the talk was that she had massive anxiety towards someone leaving her.

Yeah, most people do tend to have minor body issues, but notably, the rest of the QC cast don't; Marten isn't upset over not being beefier, Dora doesn't go around bemoaning her physique, etc. Well, there's Marigold, but her introversion and shyness and stuff are the obvious source of that. Faye's unhappiness with her own body stands out as a character trait.

Now, you could all be right about it just being societal. Maybe she was teased relentlessly when she was young, maybe she's as bad as Marigold but hides it well due to all her snark. My point is, sexual abuse almost always leads to body image issues.

but, Valdis, the fact remains that over 90% of people who are forcibly prevented from committing suicide are later happy about it, and go on to recover. Being depressed completely warps and twists your fundamental view of reality, so you also can't say, "suicide is a right, who cares what it does to other people, you just don't understand."

[Re: You're crazy] ..That's not true. I don't see how you could try to justify saying depressed people have lost all touch with reality. Sometimes being in touch with reality doesn't exactly help. Which is also why I'd personally describe it more as a remission than a recovery - just hoping for an indefinite one.

You're demonstrating a break from reality right here -- nobody said "you're crazy." Not even close. You're seeing something that isn't there. The misery or whatever you're experiencing is making things seem worse to you than they are.

In a more general sense, however, it's well documented in the field of psychology that depressed individuals have compromised perceptions. Just do some googling. Off the top of my head, I remember a study we talked about in Psych 101 where a simple quiz on some general topic was given to two groups, one comprising neurotypical people, one comprising depressed people. Before being given the results of their tests, people in the neurotypical group typically accurately predicted how well they did on the test -- people in the depressed group typically guessed their performance as being far, far worse than it actually was.

You can find tons of studies on depression and perception, and they all pretty much say the same thing -- individuals who are depressed have a heavily skewed view of reality.

[Re: Forcible prevention] Only potentially true if for the right reasons, not as a general success/failure rate. Personally I would've rather died if not. Again, comes down to the selfishness of the people who say not to 'do that to them'. It would not be in my best interest to "make me adjusted" to that life (through drugs/therapy/ECT/whatever). Many a time has that gone through my head, the only conclusion those thoughts have ever pictured is bleeding out.

I don't know you or your history or situation or current problems or anything, so I don't know what you're talking about and can't really respond here. I'm interested, though, and don't wanna derail the topic, so I'll PM you.

[Re: Can't say..] Watch me: Suicide is a right and bodily autonomy is sacrosanct - yes, even when someone says you're crazy. I don't care how it hurts the rest of us when it happens, including how badly it ends up hurting myself. Just because this is an undesirable outcome to hopefully be prevented doesn't mean there aren't fates worse than death or decisions others ultimately don't have the right to make for you.

When I said "you can't just say suicide is a right, who cares what it does to other people, you just don't understand" I meant you can't make it that black-and-white. Is it cold in here? was basically saying "you shouldn't commit suicide 'cause of what it'll do to those you leave behind" and you're basically saying "fuck everybody else, commit suicide if you want, it's nobody else's business." I see both extremes as invalid. I was just pointing that out. Obviously people have a right to commit suicide, but that doesn't mean that right should be exercised, nor does it mean that the effects of one's suicide on others should be completely ignored.

And this is coming from a man who suffers anxiety and depression and has come to the brink of suicide.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 15 Jun 2013, 00:25
society schmoschmiety; nobody's making fun of her for being fat.

http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=170
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=754

Marten's complained about not being strong enough to hold up a couch or an unconscious friend (too lazy to dig up the references right now).

Whatever Fayedad's reasons were, he had the ability to pick up a phone or say "I'm thinking of killing myself" at a routine physical exam. With ability comes ethical responsibility. Whatever pain he was in, he should have tried pills first and bullets last.

(I'm starting to think I should move this into Discuss).
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: pwhodges on 15 Jun 2013, 00:29
Just because Faye was hurt by Sven's actions doesn't make his actions wrong; he was well within his rights to have sex with whoever he wanted to.

I suppose; he broke no law.  But society is a way of people getting along, and hopefully not hurting each other unnecessarily - and society says he was in the wrong, in the sense of being a major dick.

Quote
Obviously people have a right to commit suicide, but that doesn't mean that right should be exercised, nor does it mean that the effects of one's suicide on others should be completely ignored.

Bear in mind that it is not agreed by all that it is a right.  In the eyes of much of the church it is a sin, and under the laws of some countries it is still a crime (Singapore and India, for instance, though most Western countries have dropped this).  In North Korea, legal sanctions are applied against surviving relatives...
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Welu on 15 Jun 2013, 15:20
There was no family history of depression on Fayedad's side of the family: Fayemom said so explicitly.

I was watching something recently which has made me think just because there was no official diagnosis does not mean there isn't a hereditary issue. Especially considering you're going back a couple generations where even now there's a, "Suck it up" attitude to mental issues, it was even worse not so long ago. There's a lot of things that are considered common now when there wasn't even a name only fifty years ago. 
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 15 Jun 2013, 20:52
Excellent point!

EDIT: To elaborate, there's a macho strain in Southern culture which would have inhibited his hypothetical depressed ancestors from admitting what they would have wrongly considered weakness.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Method of Madness on 15 Jun 2013, 23:08
Sven sleeping with the singer was not what he did wrong. What he did wrong was consider not telling Faye. He did have every right to sleep with someone else, as long as he excepted the consequence of losing Faye as a partner if he did so. Since he did tell Faye the next time he saw her (as far as I can tell), and accepted the inevitable consequence, he...pretty much did everything he needed to.
Summarizable as "he killed himself because he was a stupid jackass".
This was probably covered, but I think you have that backwards. I see that more as "he was a stupid jackass because he killed himself"
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Eddie 88 on 18 Jun 2013, 18:00
society schmoschmiety; nobody's making fun of her for being fat.

http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=170
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=754

Marten's complained about not being strong enough to hold up a couch or an unconscious friend (too lazy to dig up the references right now).

Those examples are playful in my mind. Whenever Faye actually gets down on herself about her weight, everyone, especially Marten, tells her she looks fine.

Whatever Fayedad's reasons were, he had the ability to pick up a phone or say "I'm thinking of killing myself" at a routine physical exam. With ability comes ethical responsibility. Whatever pain he was in, he should have tried pills first and bullets last.

Spoken like a man who's never gone through severe depression. It's not that easy. I won't even begin to attempt to explain the mindset of a suicidally depressed person, you should just know you're utterly in the dark.

Just because Faye was hurt by Sven's actions doesn't make his actions wrong; he was well within his rights to have sex with whoever he wanted to.

I suppose; he broke no law.  But society is a way of people getting along, and hopefully not hurting each other unnecessarily - and society says he was in the wrong, in the sense of being a major dick.

How was he being a dick? He made it clear all along he had no interest in monogamy. If he had agreed to monogamy with Faye, then had sex with someone else, he'd be a dick. If he'd hid banging Gina Riversmith, knowing that Faye was interested in monogamy and would stop banging him, he'd be a dick. But he didn't do either of those things.

Sven and Faye had sex as consenting adults. When they kept on having sex and eventually discussed what their "thing" was, Sven said he wasn't interested in monogamy and Faye made it clear she was. Just because Faye wanted a monogamous relationship didn't mean Sven was morally bound to go along with it. He was completely free and within his rights to have sex with Gina Riversmith. And telling Faye was the right thing to do. He did nothing wrong, in my eyes.

Quote
Obviously people have a right to commit suicide, but that doesn't mean that right should be exercised, nor does it mean that the effects of one's suicide on others should be completely ignored.

Bear in mind that it is not agreed by all that it is a right.  In the eyes of much of the church it is a sin, and under the laws of some countries it is still a crime (Singapore and India, for instance, though most Western countries have dropped this).  In North Korea, legal sanctions are applied against surviving relatives...

I don't care whether everyone agrees that it's a right. Almost no one agrees that homosexuals should have the same rights as heterosexuals, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: pwhodges on 19 Jun 2013, 00:44
My point on rights is that there is no absolute standard.  They are a development of society to help codify the ways that we get along for the best.  But at any time there will be areas in which some people (or societies, or countries) disagree.  So when I say Sven was a dick, I am simply saying that his behaviour was not calculated for him to get along with Faye; sure he told her, and that's honest, be he also hurt her and destroyed what they had going - which is his "right", as you say, but still dickish in my book.  And as for the church, I disagree with much of what they say - but you have to acknowledge that they still have considerable influence (which is not the same as agreeing with them) in order to be able to counter their views effectively.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Loki on 19 Jun 2013, 13:15
Almost no one agrees that homosexuals should have the same rights as heterosexuals, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't.

...you are preaching to the choir here. I think pertaining to this forum you should say that "Almost noone disagrees".
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: jesslc on 22 Jun 2013, 14:45
I'm curious how you'd explain her negative body-image and general negative attitude towards sex itself, if there was no sexual abuse.

I honestly find it hard to believe that someone would think that Faye's negative body image can only be explained by sexual abuse. Seriously?

Something like 95%+ of women have negative body image. I don't see Faye's negative body image as anything even remotely unusual. It's certainly no worse than one of the skinniest friends I have constantly complaining that her thighs are too fat. (This friend takes the smallest size of women's clothing you can buy in the shops in Australia). Or other female friends going on about things they don't like about their body/their weight/their looks. In my experience women who don't have issues with their body are few and far between in this world. Frankly Dora and Raven are the unusual ones for not having body image issues.

If you are not a woman you might not see this constant "putting-themselves-down-thing" that women do as much as I do as I don't think women are (in general) as disparaging about themselves around men as they are around other women. But a large percentage of women do this all the time. Faye's behaviour is not unusual.

...

Sitnspin has already said everything I have to say on the subjects of suicide and mental illness. So I will just direct you to re-read her excellent posts for my opinion on those things... :)
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 22 Jun 2013, 18:26
Even Dora has had body image problems, related to her bust size.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: quix0te on 22 Jun 2013, 20:44
It seems likely Faye doesn't know how to moderate her emotions or responses (or has chosen not to learn, and structures her life so she doesn't have to).  While there may be a connection between her father's psychological problems and her own, its also possible that its also genetic.  Her father may also have lacked an emotional setting lower than a nine.  When I try and visualize a male version of Faye, I end up with a rageball, which actually doesn't sound like a candidate for suicide.  But maybe his lack of impulse control left him with a life so barren and miserable, he ended it.  Suicide rates for divorced men in their 40's and 50's are surprisingly high.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Carl-E on 22 Jun 2013, 21:24
Some midlife crises end worse than others. 
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 22 Jun 2013, 21:26
Hmm! Thought provoking.

Rage can take more than one form, and notice that The Pugnacious Peach's alcohol problem was arguably self-harm.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: henri bemis on 22 Jun 2013, 21:43
Eddie, I think you're underestimating how insidious and damaging cultural messages about women's bodies can be.

And self-medicating with alcohol isn't often something that people do because they outright reject treatment, it's something they often do because, for any number of reasons, treatment isn't available.  And not just (but often) for financial reasons.  If you've got health insurance, and if it also covers mental health, and if you can find someone in your area who isn't a total dbag.  Seeing a therapist is deeply personal, and finding one you can feel comfortable talking to is incredibly difficult, not only because you're opening up to a complete stranger, but also because your options are so limited unless you can afford to pay full price., and/or have the energy to 'try out' multiple therapists.  Most people can't, and can't shell out $200/week out-of-pocket.

I'm also someone who has felt suicidal and has lost dear friends to suicide.  While I understand the gut reaction to rage at them (and trust me, I have - and I'm not proud of it, but I understand it), it's... well, really hurtful to me to read about people who would respond to my desire to take my life with "but that would hurt me too much!"  If I confide in someone that I want to kill myself, that I am feeling so bad, so terrible, that I am considering taking my life, and they respond in a way that centers THEIR feelings?  I just... I know a lot of people don't understand depression and anxiety, but guilt is a big part of what makes it worse, at least for me.  That would not be helpful.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: bhtooefr on 23 Jun 2013, 02:43
Even Dora has had body image problems, related to her bust size.
And Raven has had body image problems related to her weight (and to stretchmarks caused by the weight).
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: Carl-E on 23 Jun 2013, 05:03
But getting control of her weight changed her attitude (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=562). 

As Dora says, "mostly".  Body issues are always there, because... your body is. 
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: judemorrigan on 24 Jun 2013, 09:59
But getting control of her weight changed her attitude (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=562). 

As Dora says, "mostly".  Body issues are always there, because... your body is.
She changed her attitude on the outside.  The thing is, the fact that she may have once been a bit heavyset is still a deep, dark secret suggests she still has some internalized body issues.

And for what it's worth, society is pretty hard at work at trying to give men body image issues too.  It's really not at the same point as what women have to put up with, but give it time.
Title: Re: Why did Faye's dad kill himself?
Post by: themacnut on 24 Jun 2013, 18:16
And for what it's worth, society is pretty hard at work at trying to give men body image issues too.  It's really not at the same point as what women have to put up with, but give it time.

Of course it is - it's a marketing conspiracy to make men buy all the same diet products women do, plus all the weight machines and/or gym memberships. On the other hand there are a lot more obese people these days, especially across the US, so there's definitely a growing (in every sense of the word) target market.