HOW SWAY. JUST HOW.I don't get that reference.
HOW SWAY. JUST HOW.I don't get that reference.
Would you want to stick out like a sore thumb 24/7 in a society like that
Gavia's fighting the inevitable, while Ardent is trying to fit in
Or she's been running on battery power and is about to crash, hard.
But it seems to me that now that several days/weeks have passed and Gavia has SITLL got no response, the idea that they may be there for a seriously long time, maybe forever, has not truly sunk in for her.
Well, I guess that Gavia is finally learning that her actions have consequences (something I don't think that she really seemed to have a handle on before).
On the other hand, it seems that Ardent hasn't learnt anything at all... Assuming that he's capable of learning.
Is that a spear next to the pitchfork? If so what is it doing in a peaceful farming community? Do they have wildlife control problems?
Yes, definitely an axe.Hi-five?
And the three of us who picked "pitchforks and torches" in the poll can now shout "Called it!" - at least half of it, anyway. :-D
Is that a spear next to the pitchfork? If so what is it doing in a peaceful farming community? Do they have wildlife control problems?
It looks like the middle guy has an axe slung over his shoulder. It just looks weird because we're seeing it from the perspective of the base of the handle.
Well, I guess that Gavia is finally learning that her actions have consequences (something I don't think that she really seemed to have a handle on before).
I've been wondering -- was she allowed to blow shit up back wherever she came from? It seems like that's not an ability teens should have in what was presumably a densely populated environment.
Is that a spear next to the pitchfork? If so what is it doing in a peaceful farming community? Do they have wildlife control problems?
It looks like the middle guy has an axe slung over his shoulder. It just looks weird because we're seeing it from the perspective of the base of the handle.
I thought it was one of those hoe/mattock things - you know, like a scythe but with the blade set at 90 degrees for scoopage.
I'm a bit late to the party (as usual), but I wonder if Ardent took them the wrong way on purpose, ... bright enough to at least have a basic sense of direction.
I wish to file a complaint against the family in panel 2.If your protector looks like he might plunge himself into a fight against a superpowered demon he cannot possibly win, out of a notion of "heroic sacrifice", it might be a rational decision to hold him back, though.
If you are assuming to be in danger, quite possibly the last thing you should be doing is grappling the main fighting limbs of your protector.
It is often a two-way street.with no cross walks and the intersections are hazardous
Is that a spear next to the pitchfork? If so what is it doing in a peaceful farming community? Do they have wildlife control problems?
It looks like the middle guy has an axe slung over his shoulder. It just looks weird because we're seeing it from the perspective of the base of the handle.
I guess it could be a trident.
I thought it was one of those hoe/mattock things - you know, like a scythe but with the blade set at 90 degrees for scoopage.
I thought it was a trowel at first. :psyduck:
Something that I suspected has now been proven true: Ardent actually is that naïve about human threats! He really doesn't seem to realise just how tense and dangerous that this situation could be, especially with some of the townsfolk so upset that they are willing to defy Alice. Does he lack a survival instinct or is he just plain dumb? Personally, I think that it is an indication of just how safe 'Up' is under the Praeses' direction.I suspect he's enjoying getting a rise out of the natives. "Oh! A hold up! Wait, let me get my camera, can you hold this bag for me?"
I'm trying to work out what Alice is going to do to Jeb. Either he's going to come back babbling that he knows what it is like to be a frog or he's going to have a whole new outlook on life based on Alice's merciless deconstruction of his personality.Yeah. Either is possible.
Meanwhile, what happens when one of the townsfolk succumbs to curiosity and approaches Gavia?I would love them to have a conversation, sans fireworks!
Jebediah is right, though, from any reasonable perspective the townsfolk could possibly have.
This may show us something more important of Alice's character.
Maybe that is part of the Praeses' plan - Force Alice to live with people who are going to be heading in and out of town, thus forcing her to develop connections one way or another.
Awesome, awesome range of facial expressions.
Aaaand now I don't like Alice. I have an automatic dislike for anyone who says 'I'm older and smarter than you, so I don't have to explain myself.' I also have an automatic dislike for anyone who says 'I'm bigger and stronger than you, so do what I say.' Alice just did both.Well, yes. You know, power corrupts (and absolute power corrupts absolutely). Alice is bound to be a bit psycho after all these years. Basically, she tries to do what she perceives is the best for the inhabitants; unfortunately, that also means she does not ask them for advice, but dictates how things should be done. I guess that is why there is no apparent mayor or police, Alice takes care of it all.
Jebediah's question was totally legitimate: From all he's seen of Gavia, she torched the town with absolutely no provocation and the people were helpless to stop her. He hasn't seen her outside of that context. (Heck, even around Alice's property, Gavia appeared to be near torching some kids until Ardent stopped her.)
We don't always have to like a protagonist.It helps, though. At the very least you need to empathize with your Protagonist, and I certainly can't do that with a millenium old superhero, a blue alien with no sense of boundaries or consideration for others, or a floating alien who mostly just complains.
Sometimes they grow. Sometimes they fail.
We'll see I suppose.
I don't like Alice.She's not boring, though!
We don't always have to like a protagonist.
... Sometimes they fail.
To be fair, I'm pretty sure she only used this tactic because she knew it was the only way to convince him.
I don't like Alice.She's not boring, though!
To be fair, I'm pretty sure she only used this tactic because she knew it was the only way to convince him.
Ugh, don't remind me that season 2 exists.We don't always have to like a protagonist.
... Sometimes they fail.
Light Yagami.
How can we be sure, though? All I know about Jebediah is that he's a guy who's worried about his town and distrustful of Gavia. We just have to take Alice's word for it that she knows him best, and she knows how it's best to treat him, since we're not given a chance to see things any other way.I don't like Alice.She's not boring, though!
To be fair, I'm pretty sure she only used this tactic because she knew it was the only way to convince him.
How can we be sure, though?We can't! That's half the fun.
How can we be sure, though? All I know about Jebediah is that he's a guy who's worried about his town and distrustful of Gavia. We just have to take Alice's word for it that she knows him best, and she knows how it's best to treat him, since we're not given a chance to see things any other way.
If we had seen her try to explain Gavia's perspective, then get shut down with a 'That doesn't matter, the demon is evil', and THEN Alice went all 'I'm-superior and you-don't-matter,' she'd be a lot better off, but as it is we have only assumption and her (unreliable) opinion that this was the best course of action.
You're assuming that Alice is correct because Alice says she's correct... Without bothering to try and explain the situation peacefully. Her immediate first resort after someone dared ask a legitimate question was to threaten physical violence and humiliation. (Because again, expressing concern over letting a firey demon walk around your city is a fair thing to do.)
Besides: It doesn't matter if she's certain that's the only way to get through to him either: Using vast intellect to manipulate and push around weaker and stupider people is not an admirable trait. It's something bad guys do.
Just have Alice say something like "That was a miscommunication, she didn't intend to hurt anyone,"
lawful neutralAre you really lawful if you are the law?
lawful neutral
Are you really lawful if you are the law?
I think we have a cross between Discworld and Hancock going on here with Alice.What does Herbie Hancock have to to with anything?
lawful neutralAre you really lawful if you are the law?
You're looking at this strip in isolation. Alice already said that she had Gavia under control. Jeb's reaction to that was to disrespect her in such a way that made me think that this was an attempt to prove he is the town's alpha by picking a fight with her.
lawful neutralAre you really lawful if you are the law?
You're looking at this strip in isolation. Alice already said that she had Gavia under control. Jeb's reaction to that was to disrespect her in such a way that made me think that this was an attempt to prove he is the town's alpha by picking a fight with her.
Until Ardent and Gavia, what threats have needed an immortal demigod watching over the town for hundreds or thousands of years?
How can you not be?
How can you not be?Because if the law is basically "do as I say because I say it", that doesn't seem like an actual code of laws.
Until Ardent and Gavia, what threats have needed an immortal demigod watching over the town for hundreds or thousands of years?
Well, we don't know yet; doesn't mean we won't find out in due course. The story's still only just beginning.
But then the title of the strip would be "Alice's Farm".
Or maybe "Alice's Restaurant."
:-D
It's obvious isn't it. She wears overalls/dungarees, fixes wind turbines, herds the livestock. She's a farmer of humans.
She shouldn't need threats at this point to emphasize her power. The fact that she uses them tells me that either:
A. She's a terrible person looking for an excuse to be cruel.
B. She's not particularly bright, or good at leadership.
C. She's not as powerful as everyone thinks and she claims.
We've seen evidence to the contrary for B and C.
EDIT #2: Also, just because the characters don't like each other doesn't mean they shouldn't be likeable. That's not a good excuse. Nobody liked each other in The Avengers, but I still liked all of them.Why on earth should characters in fiction be likeable?
Oh, I never meant to imply mikmaxs said they didn't like the comic; I just disagree with the implication of the quote cited by me that an author needs an excuse to make his characters unlikeable; or that unlikeable characters are in themselves a deficit in a story.
As I said before, Alice knows her people. I mean terrifyingly well. As in, she knows who has a crush on whom just by reading their body language! That's what happened here by the way. The reason why Alice needs to intervene with Shelley's family is because Jeb isn't normally the sort that they would want to court their daughter.Doing nothing out of the ordinary. She's working her day job as far as she's concerned. She hasn't tried anything even remotely challenging, she has no long-term goals she's working for other than 'Town maintenance', and she's not got any driving motivations. She's totally content with her lot in life. Obviously she's doing something in the literal sense of the words, but it's not anything major or important as far as she's concerned. If this story were about a plumber, we'd be watching him fix pipes for three hours as routine repairs for an apartment building with no real difficulty.
Mik, seriously, when have we ever seen Alice 'doing nothing'? The first time we saw her, she was hard at work for the community and, apart from food and sleep, we haven't seen her stop yet!
I think I should say here that most of my criticisms of Alice Grove only work (At least in my opinion,) because Alice Grove is a comedy, which is heavily working against the drama and characters. It's hard to tell a dramatic story when you're constantly telling jokes. It's hard to laugh when the main character is a jerk. (Unless the story constantly gives them their comeuppance, which you can't do when your main character is Superwoman in a world of paper people.)Yeah, that I agree with, although I don't see Alice as a jerk. But yes, in a comedy, her character (and others as well) feels out of place and exaggerated. I, for my part, wish Alice Grove would go more into the serious, story-driven direction instead of the one with the bad butt and tail jokes -- I've commented on this before.
First off: When I say 'Likeable' I mean 'A character that I enjoy watching.' (Or reading about, or hearing, etc.) A lot of characters are not likeable in that I would hate to be around them in real life, (Jayne Cobb from Firefly comes to mind, for example,) but they are still caught under 'Likeable' the way I'm going to use the word here. Meanwhile, characters that are interesting or driving don't have to be 'Likeable' to be good. (Later seasons of Walter White from Breaking Bad come to mind.)Ah, fair enough -- I apparently understood you wrong. As I said, I also way prefer stories where I can relate to the characters somewhat,or where I enjoy watching them, even if I don't like them; and for me this is kind of the case with Alice. But then I could never watch Breaking Bad, for example, because the character is someone I absolutely can't relate to. I guess that's personal taste.
I don't know how to respond other than to say that I'm happy with what Jeph's providing (for free) and as such I look forward to him telling Alice's story his way.Not exactly for free. He only started Alice Grove after reaching a stretch goal on Kickstarter. Admittedly it's a one-time payment, and not everyone who reads Alice Grove had to pay, but not totally for free.
The pacing is a fair criticism (it doesn't take away my enjoyment of the comic but your mileage may vary), but I don't think it's fair to say the comedy is crippling the plot. Then again, I do think it's a comedy, or at least that comedy is one of the genres, just like QC.The comedy thing is a lot more YMMV than the pacing, I'd agree. I feel like the comedy works better in QC though, because the plot isn't nearly as complex. (Also, again YMMV, but I feel like deep character studies don't work as well when you're constantly telling jokes. I wouldn't have near as much of an issue with Alice's being a bully if it wasn't saturated in punchlines.)
I don't think AG is that much more complex than QC, it just takes place in an unfamiliar setting so it seems so.An unfamiliar, alien setting with at least a dozen unanswered questions I can think of off the top of my head. Maybe the plotline by itself isn't that complicated, but there are so many mysteries, secrets, and unexplained plot threads that mean it's a lot more complicated from setting alone. The setting is a huge part of the plot. You can't separate the two and still have a cohesive story. If the setting is confusing and complicated, then the story inherits all of the issues that come with that.
That's your interpretation, which is perfectly valid.That's your opinion about my interpretation, which is also valid.
But if you feel that you'd like Jeph to take your views into account, you'll have to send them to him; he doesn't often read these forums.My criticisms aren't just for Jeph. I assume I'm not the only person on this forum who writes or does something similarly creative and story-driven. Besides, I like talking about stories and plots and stuff.
1, if Alice Grove isn't a comedy, then Jeph needs to STOP TELLING JOKES.
Besides: It doesn't matter if she's certain that's the only way to get through to him either: Using vast intellect to manipulate and push around weaker and stupider people is not an admirable trait. It's something bad guys do.
I assume I'm not the only person on this forum who writes or does something similarly creative and story-driven. Besides, I like talking about stories and plots and stuff.
Sure! That's why there's a whole subforum for stuff like that.You mean like this one, dedicated to talking about the plot and stuff happening in Alice Grove? (That's what it's here for, right?) If I want to talk about other movies, books, or comics I can do that anywhere, but Alice Grove is a bit too niche to talk about elsewhere.
*whispers* I don't mean to cause trouble but have you ever read Shakespeare? He was all about telling the jokes in his tragedies. And his comedies. And probably his historical plays too but I've not read any of those. And people seem to like him all right.You can have humor in serious and/or non comedy plots, sure. Iron Man is funny without being a comedy. Firefly. Skulduggery Pleasant. Lots of things. Fine.
If I want to talk about other movies, books, or comics I can do that anywhere, but Alice Grove is a bit too niche to talk about elsewhere.
If a guy goes up on stage and plays rock music, but tells a joke between one or two of his songs, he's a musician with a sense of humor. If he plays one rock song and then tells jokes the rest of the time, he's a comedian with a weird and pointless rock song in the middle of his set. Shakespeare is the musician, Alice Grove is the comedian.I think this comparison, though hyperbolic, illustrates your point quite well.
^What he said.It's she, actually. :-)
This whole time I hadn't noticed that was a lowercase L, and thought your screen name was Mile Germain. :psyduck:Holy shit, me too! I didn't even notice that it wasn't a lowercase i, I've been seeing "mile germain" for years. Then again, I still don't remember how to spell bain-in-the-dub's screen name.
I don't know. They seem pretty awkward-cute to me. :)
Sophie Germain was a French mathematician I admire.)I was kinda hoping that was the origin of your username. Nice to get a confirmation :-)
Young Jimbo and Ardent seem to be hitting it off.
Alt-Marten and Gavia, not so much.
I am half expecting Gavia to show off and use her nano tech to help the townfolks/farmers do some boring job with it.
And Alice to disprove of that for spoiling her long term plan of introducing technology to the locals only very gradually.
And Alice to disprove of that for spoiling her long term plan of introducing technology to the locals only very gradually.Which would make the town rightfully annoyed with Alice for holding them back.
A skein of nanomachines generates a liftfield that negates the planet's gravitational pull on my body.
Wait, if the nanobots just negate the planets gravity, why do they have such a crappy maximum speed? Without gravity, all you'd have to worry about is wind resistance, right? Shouldn't she theoretically be able to move incredibly quickly since there's no weight slowing her down?
What is a skein of nanomachines like? Is it a thread made of nanotech wrapped around her body?
Honestly, someone at some stage is going to HAVE to address Gavias constant use of her 'Hover Mode' and excessive use of her Nanotech. She's going to have to fit into this society she's going to have to learn to fit in to their way of life.
Yeah...if she wants to. But she doesn't seem to be in a rush.Remember when she was running from the Nightwalker, and she couldn't keep up with Ardent?
IRL, in zero gravity you can't move at all (unless you can push off against something or fart really hard).IRL, you can't move in normal gravity unless you have something to push off against either.
My point was that there shouldn't be a speed limit. Even if the nanomachines can only give a tiny amount of forward thrust, the only thing that should slow Gavia down is air resistance, which wouldn't be much of an issue until you start pushing highway speeds.
Magnets.
IRL, in zero gravity you can't move at all (unless you can push off against something or fart really hard).
Are you telling me she has enough power in the nanomachines to do this:
http://www.alicegrove.com/post/104120259904/uh-oh (http://www.alicegrove.com/post/104120259904/uh-oh)
But not to overcome the wind resistance faced at a light run?
Y'know, I just realized this, but ya really gotta wonder if constantly floating has caused any anthropy in Gavia's legs.I haven't seen them exploring and studying branches of humanity, that's mostly Ardent's job.
Maybe they're the 'Spoiled Brats' of their society and sending them down into Alice's world is a way to force them to grow up.
But he seems mildly amused about doing things the primitive way. Maybe not super-thrilled, but...
The respect appears to be mutual. He's not afraid of her like the younger villagers are.He's had enough time to be indoctrinated by fear into obeying and revering her, so she no longer needs to talk down to him to make him listen.
If so, how do we square this circle with her nearly cooking those kids?I don't think she was ever going to hurt the kids, I think she was just trying to scare them off.
Well, first of all, Alice being a 'wizard with social interaction' made me actually laugh out loud.I misspoke there, my bad. Rather, she's supposedly a wizard (Or just really experienced or what have you) at understanding how people tick. Not social interaction necessarily, but she allegedly reads and understands people pretty well. (And was able to convince two men who hated each other to become best of friends, also.)
From Alice's perspective she is dealing with a bunch of children, essentially.THIS IS WHAT MAKES HER ACTIONS SO TERRIBLE. She's talking to a child. Not even a particularly old or mature one. Both in terms of life experience and physical strength, it's like someone in their late thirties (Who exercises a lot) talking to a toddler.
But essentially what she did was pull him aside and explain he was being an idiot.No. That is not a thing that happened. She did not explain anything, she said that she was smarter, stronger, and better than him and that he should shut up and obey. She gave no reason for why his complaint was invalid or wrong. She didn't explain a damned thing beyond that she was capable of beating the shit out of him.
She could have just as easily smacked him into the ground the way she did with Gavia. She gave him every opportunity to listen to his friends, and when he didn't she took him aside and dealt with it privately and without violence, if not without the threat of violence.This is also not a thing that happened.
just shy of being a straight villain
Comparing her to the characters in QC, her temperament is closest to Beatrice Chatham's.
I'm ok calling her an anti-hero.That's fair, though most anti-heroes have some kind of draw to their personality to make them empathetic. Alice might have a tragic backstory or a character draw, but we're nine months in and I haven't heard a glimpse of it yet.
Quotejust shy of being a straight villain
Do we know she isn't?
She has done some Mary Worth things for the villagers, but that could be egotism or a community service sentence instead of a matter of good will.
Is lawful inherently better than neutral or chaotic? Or is it really just the evil/neutral/good that's used to determine how good a person is?
Well yeah, but my question is this. Is being lawful evil somehow "better" than being chaotic evil?
Also wait, how is Batman not good?
Would you argue that beyond being an unsympathetic character she's a badly portrayed one?It really depends on what Jeph is trying to portray. My issue is that I don't know what he's trying to do, nine months in. If he was clearly trying to create an ambiguous character it'd be one thing, but the intent isn't very clear. If I'm supposed to like her I can't because she's a jerk, if I'm supposed to empathize with her I can't because we don't know anything about her, if I'm supposed to dislike her then she should have started some kind of character growth by now, and if I'm supposed to be intrigued by her then we should be getting information more clearly or quickly 'cause at the current pace I really don't care.
It depends on your preferred version of Batman. My version of him in my head is someone who wants to prevent evil from ever winning and is quite able to use ethically dubious means to do so. He'd never hurt the innocent but he'd use means that would not meet the approval of a paladin to achieve the outcomes he wants.Maybe I'm completely misunderstanding it, but that description sounds far more chaotic good than lawful neutral.
"Win if you can, lose if you must; always cheat."
Or...
"Seven billion lives hanging in the balance? I'd lie, cheat, steal and use every underhand and unethical means necessary. The losers can fight over the 'good conduct' medal."
My issue is that I don't know what he's trying to do, nine months in. If he was clearly trying to create an ambiguous character it'd be one thing, but the intent isn't very clear. If I'm supposed to like her I can't because she's a jerk, if I'm supposed to empathize with her I can't because we don't know anything about her, if I'm supposed to dislike her then she should have started some kind of character growth by now, and if I'm supposed to be intrigued by her then we should be getting information more clearly or quickly 'cause at the current pace I really don't care.
I can't say she's *badly* characterized because she's barely been characterized at all.
9 months IRL (not that long really)
66 comics (not that many)
a few months in-comic (a fleeting instance to Alice, now that we know her longevity and timescale)
give Jeph a chance to tell the story his way (or wait until he's done and you can buy the book and read it all at once)
You write a story with your limitations in mind.[...]
The limitations I'm referring to are his choice of format as a webcomic with a bi-weekly update schedule. I'm not making up any limitations, I'm just pointing out the obvious ones that already exists: Jeph chose to constrain himself to these limitations when he started writing Alice Grove. You could argue that he's just dealing with the limitations in a different way than I'd prefer, but from my perspective he's simply not dealing with a lot of the problems at all. (Namely, the way that the update schedule and limited scope harms the pacing.)You write a story with your limitations in mind.[...]
I don't mean to put words in his mouth, but it appears that Jeph is not interested in constraining himself to whatever limitations you seem to have in mind for him.
At the same time, such investment in the storyline and being impatient to see what's in store is itself a pretty high compliment.