THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)
Comic Discussion => QUESTIONABLE CONTENT => Topic started by: BenRG on 07 Jun 2015, 07:36
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We're on quite a cliff-hanger right now! How will Claire respond to Faye's ultimatum? Positively, or pathetically? Will Marten finally take a strong line of Faye's attitude towards friendships? Or will Jeph get trapped in New York and we have a week of Yelling Birds?
Seriously, I'm still wedded to the idea of Claire turning up and insisting that she'll fight to protect Marten from Faye. Not only would it be cute (and even Faye is likely to find it funny), it might make Faye ask questions about her attitude and how other people react to her 'quirks'.
Y'know... we are close to strip 3000 and the whole Faye thing just insists on getting heavier with every arc focussed on her. Might she decide to move out of the apartment on her own initiative? Might Marten throw her out after she hits Claire or something? Might something else happen that changes the balance of the characters and the strip forever? Or will it just be another strip that coincidentally has three zeros in its number?
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Oh, she'll fight. She might even win. Redheads are fierce in a fight, regardless of size.
Besides, at Faye's current level of intoxication it wouldn't take much to put her down.
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(8 - 12 July 2015) ?????
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(8 - 12 July 2015) ?????
What?
Did you forget to set your calendar forward again?
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Everyone always forgets that there's a leap month every 2015 years.
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Damn that Y2KXV problem.
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The Matrix has you
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Besides, at Faye's current level of intoxication it wouldn't take much to put her down.
I dunno. Never underestimate the power of drunk-strength.
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Besides, at Faye's current level of intoxication it wouldn't take much to put her down.
I dunno. Never underestimate the power of drunk-strength.
Yeah. And Faye has more mass, so her punches have an advantage. Also, I hope Claire feels bad for hanging up on Marten and apologises or something.
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Most interested I've been in a week's worth of strips in a lonnnng time.
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Definitely interested in Claireten's first fight, which is, I think what this is.
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I think the fights been diffused by Faye.
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I think the fights been diffused by Faye.
I dunno. Marten still lied to Claire, and we don't know what Claire's response will be
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He was economical with the truth.
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Indeed. Nothing Marten said to Claire was untrue.
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Literal truth is different from perceived truth. Perception of deception makes a person just as angry.
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How the hell did Marten lie? At all? Also, what makes you think Claire would fight anyone?
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How the hell did Marten lie? At all? Also, what makes you think Claire would fight anyone?
Like I said, it's not about what was done, but what was perceived. As to Claire fighting, there's no chance of that, not physically at least. I expect her guns to be blazing when she arrives, though quickly disarmed.
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He didn't lie. He just didn't tell the whole truth.
Now, some would say a half-truth is as good as a lie. I'm guessing those people would also think the justice system usually works to serve justice, rather than expediency. It turns out that half-truths make up a lion's share of tact. When you need to communicate something but don't feel you have the right to be blunt, or when the person you're talking about is in the room with you, or when you need to communicate something related to another thing, but that other thing is potentially private information you don't think you should share.
Claire might be one of those people. She's shown that trait when it comes to the sanctity of libraries. I don't see that as a sensible lead-in to a continuing issue, though. Maybe 1 or 2 gag strips, but Claire has also shown that once she's had a chance to say her piece, she is willing to hear the other side. She may not agree, but she doesn't seem to hold grudges.
As I see it, it all on Marten. Claire was hurt. Whether it was reasonable for her to be hurt is up for grabs, but it is, IMO, a mistake to try and make "reasonable" and "emotion" work like chocolate and peanut butter. Or Chocolate and bacon. Or Austrian accented Austrailian English.
It's not that the two are polar opposites, much like the examples that followed. They are highly interrelated, in fact. Emotion is all the feels. Reason is, fundamentally, when you're willing to be critical of your feels. 99 times in 100, we don't have the will for that, even when we think we do.
But Claire is pretty easy to mollify, and Marten knows this. Just acknowledging her feels would probably be enough, and it doesn't cost much. Zen Marten can do that, no issue. Passive aggressive Marten can't. While he was cool with Faye, it was pretty clear that passive aggressive Marten was in the house. What we don't know is if that was because it served the gag of the day, or if it was plot. So, it all comes down to which Marten shows up if Claire shows up.
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How the hell did Marten lie? At all? Also, what makes you think Claire would fight anyone?
IMO, he didn't. Claire knows enough about what's going on, that if she has had to deal with anyone with substance addiction before, that Marten might politely skip the details. I'm rather insecure, myself, but I think that I'd put together that "Faye's not well" as a polite code for "Faye fell off the wagon" without specifically saying so.
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And comic is up with punch line straight out of someone's past experiences...
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Don't worry Claire. Faye would never REALLY beat up Marten.
Well, except those two times.
But certainly not 3!
Unless you count slapstick.
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Claireten is masterfully manoeuvring these treacherous waters. Well played. Now we play the waiting game with Faye's nerves: how long can she keep herself together with these two lovebirds being such a cute couple?
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Faye does seem to have diffused the situation, however. Marten maybe had made Claire feel angry/insecure/uncertain/whatever, when he cancelled their date, which, considering she has just started her first relationship is a REALLY BIG FUCKING THING for her. I can't blame her. Faye's phone call, OTOH, managed to shoot a proverbial arrow through whatever negative emotions that Claire had been feeling, and bring her to realise what is more important. Even Marten was smart enough to realise that he hadn't given his gf *enough* information to keep her from feeling dismissed.
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I think Claire took Faye's threat pretty seriously. I wonder how much time passed between Friday's comic and this one?
(Friday)
FAYE: (On the phone) "...Get yer ass over here or I'll beat up your boyfriend. Bye." (To Marten) "You're welcome."
MARTEN: "It's amazing how many problems you solve with threats of violence. You're like a Swiss army knife of hate."
FAYE: *muttering*
MARTEN: "What was that?"
FAYE: (louder) "...SIX, five, four, three--" [Frantic knocking on door] "--that was quick." [Opens door] "Heya, nerd."
CLAIRE: "Don't beat up my boyfriend!"
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Well, Claire has reason to fear for Marten, I think. Faye does have a history of using threats, violence and possibly bullying to get what she wants. And she's beat up on Marten a number of times, both when he was deserving it, and not. She wasn't serious this time of course, but Claire doesn't know her well enough to judge that.
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Good morning,
Now that´s what I call an anti-climax. There could have been drama, there cold have been agression and even a fight. But the whole situation has been perfectly resolved, the misunderstanding has been cleared out, even Faye´s thread of violence is no thing any more.
And everyone has stayed perfectly in character.
BOOOOOORING!!!!!!!
No, not really. ;-) But I must admit that I expected something more ... spectacular today. So now I suppose we´re in for a week of talking on the infamous sofa. Faye´s on the train to bitter recrimination ville (without a stop in orgasm-town before :-D ). And I am curious how Marten will get her though this and if Claire will be any help. Maybe this is even a chance for Faye and Claire to get their differences sorted out.
So todays strip is kind of an interlude, a dramaturgic twist to get these three characters together and to set the background for the coming episodes. We´ll see where this will take them.
I´ll stay tuned.
TM
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Ouch. I think that I see where this is going now. We're working towards 'The Talk, Part 2'. We're going to have a week or two of cute Clairten filler with sassy Faye commentary. Then, a hung-over Faye will awaken and, in strip 3000, the bitter unburdening of a broken heart to her friend (and his girlfriend) will begin.
A small thing that I noticed: You can see the tension in Marten and Claire's body postures. They are neither relaxed nor are they happy!
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Even Marten was smart enough to realise that he hadn't given his gf *enough* information to keep her from feeling dismissed.
But still quite right to let Faye be the one to choose to reveal the missing detail.
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Overbite city!
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That was easy.
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That was easy.
It's always easy to make peace when both sides want peace.
We're seeing an aspect of Claire's personality here: As much as she is pushy and occasionally abrasive, she has little taste for ongoing confrontations that have an angry aspect to them. Sass and 'light-hearted' mockery is one thing; actually arguing in anger is something else entirely to her. That's probably a consequence of the events surrounding her parents' separation.
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Overbite city!
A-ha! Claire's actually Squirrel Girl! Busted!
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Some people might think the resolution between Marten and Claire is too easy, but hell, I'm proud of the little lovebirds. Moving past a petty little thing (Not the Faye situation, but the omitting the whole story out of respect for a friend/hanging up in anger thing) like this with sincerity and honesty is not only a great sign for a healthy relationship, even this early, but it shows tremendous growth for Marten especially. Things with Dora, as I recall them, were rarely ironed out this smoothly, even early on, because of Dora's insecurities. That's not to say Claire has no flaws; every person does. But the fact that they can hit a bump like that and just fix it immediately is a really good thing, and it gives me high hopes for whatever they have to face in the future. My hopes for Faye on the other hand..? Well, we'll see how it goes.
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I can't help thinking that Faye's days of living with Marten are numbered.
She hasn't resolved any of her problems at all, and has already backslid (which while understandable is a bad sign). The crises in her life are ongoing, they haven't been cancelled, and Marten is neither equipped nor able to function as her minder/nurse - to expect him to is absolutely unfair on him.
I also remember the tension with Dora and Faye while Marten and Dora were still a thing. Claire is more secure than Dora is/was, but not by that much - and I can't believe that a part of her doesn't have a problem with Marten and Faye's cosy relationship. At some point in the future Marten, I think, will find himself having to choose between them.
Strip 3000 maybe?
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It's always easy to make peace when both sides want peace.
If this were true, we writers of fiction would be hard pressed for stories, and history would be a lot less bloody. It's easy to make peace when both sides fear not peace more than they fear loss of pride. I was actually commenting that the drama was actually even less than I expected. I didn't expect much. (https://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,30703.msg1323274.html#msg1323274)
It's interesting to me that Marten deflected. Deflecting is not good, but nobody's perfect. The interesting thing to me is how he deflected. He didn't erase Claires responsibility by taking blame. He said, "It's my fault, too." I think that's a pretty healthy way to look at it.
Also, I think Faye has resolved some of her problems. Faye was a woman who couldn't honestly engage her issues without violence or total deflection. While she's retreated to the bottle, she is much more able to be vulnerable with those she trusts.
In a very real sense, Marten hadn't resolved many of his issues until very recently. He continued to coast through life aimlessly and turtle up when faced with setbacks. Letting his guard down with Claire wasn't growth. Following up on it when she backed off was. The fact that Faye had to intervene to make today's healthy moment possible shows that the passive, takes-all-shit Marten Reed is still in there. I think he's grown enough to have made this right on his own, but not enough to see that there was no sense in waiting. He's changed, but he hasn't changed a lot. Same with Faye.
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Ouch. I think that I see where this is going now. We're working towards 'The Talk, Part 2'. We're going to have a week or two of cute Clairten filler with sassy Faye commentary. Then, a hung-over Faye will awaken and, in strip 3000, the bitter unburdening of a broken heart to her friend (and his girlfriend) will begin.
A small thing that I noticed: You can see the tension in Marten and Claire's body postures. They are neither relaxed nor are they happy!
oh god, no. Please not. Really. That would be horrible. For a few reasons:
- even most of those who do like Clairten just had their fill of sappy Clairten fillers. Everybody else, double that feeling.
- Why fillers? There are a lot of topics that aren't resolved yet. How is Dora, the whole CoD Staff, Sven, Steve and Corsette, Clinton and Emily (and so on)
- Hell no. Why would Faye, who has said clearly that Claire isn't in her circle of friends yet and is quite uncomfortable talking about feelings with anybody (Angus, Marten, Dora, her therapist) speak her innermost feelings to Claire, of all people?
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Hell no. Why would Faye, who has said clearly that Claire isn't in her circle of friends yet and is quite uncomfortable talking about feelings with anybody (Angus, Marten, Dora, her therapist) speak her innermost feelings to Claire, of all people?
Not Claire, Marten. Claire would just happen to be there.
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Hell no. Why would Faye, who has said clearly that Claire isn't in her circle of friends yet and is quite uncomfortable talking about feelings with anybody (Angus, Marten, Dora, her therapist) speak her innermost feelings to Claire, of all people?
Not Claire, Marten. Claire would just happen to be there.
I seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt that. Faye would never drop anything like that with Claire just sitting there. She wouldn't want to be a bitch and get rid of her after being the one to call her there, so she'd just stay quiet. I think we might be seeing the beginnings of Faye really clamming up again and blocking everyone out. Only this time, they're not going to get past the "prickly exterior"; they're just going to be too tired and end up leaving.
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faye is far better off drunk than sober considering the company she keeps.
I think today's strip clearly shows that faye's drinking is not a problem and that her trip to the hospital was entirely due to her housemate's huge over reaction.
I would like to see a mass culling of lesser characters in 3000 but don't hold much hope for that.
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People keep comparing Dora and Claire's insecurities. But remember, Dora's fears about her partners cheating on her and treating her badly are completely founded in reality, since according to Sven Marten was the first person she dated who didn't do any of that. Dora was actively looking and waiting for when Marten was going to screw her over. Nobody is as good as sabotaging their life as the person themself. It's a good sign likely that she is doing a lot less of that with Tai.
Claire on the other hand has no previous dating experience. She has issues with people cheating thanks to her parents divorce. But she hasn't shown any signs of expecting it every time. The one time she did get angry about it was when she thought Tai stole Dora away. Something that was straitened out quick enough. Also she has no reason to suspect Faye is just waiting to swoop on Marten. They've lived together a long time, including times when both were single. Faye was the one who pushed Claire towards Marten and has already given her approval of the match. It would take someone a lot more paranoid about relationships to think that Faye is going to try and steal Marten away.
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faye is far better off drunk than sober considering the company she keeps.
I think today's strip clearly shows that faye's drinking is not a problem and that her trip to the hospital was entirely due to her housemate's huge over reaction.
Wrong.
You honestly think the hospital would waste time keeping a person who wasn't in danger of dying?
I'm not even gonna get into how one strip showing positive(ish) results as a result of Faye drinking doesn't discount the sheer number of those that say otherwise. Faye knows she has a problem, and she's addicted to booze. She literally found it impossible to go more than a few days without it. That's pretty textbook drinking problem.
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Speaking for myself: I've been in enough hospitals to understand that the hospitals are in it for the money. Individual staffers might care about your life, or you quality of life, or quality of death... but in the end, the bottom line is the bottom line. I've seen people that legitimately needed help turned away out of hand, and people that had deep pockets held onto like they were made of money.
This universe being what it is, playing with post-scarcity economics, I would posit that Faye wasn't turned out before she was dried out. But very shortly thereafter.
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faye is far better off drunk than sober considering the company she keeps.
I think today's strip clearly shows that faye's drinking is not a problem and that her trip to the hospital was entirely due to her housemate's huge over reaction.
OK, unsubstantiated controversial claims stated baldly like that are simply what is known as trolling. Are you going to provide coherent arguments for that position, or should we encourage you to take your trolling elsewhere?
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Speaking for myself: I've been in enough hospitals to understand that the hospitals are in it for the money. Individual staffers might care about your life, or you quality of life, or quality of death... but in the end, the bottom line is the bottom line.
Remember that we know that Faye was still insured for the hospital visit.
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faye is far better off drunk than sober considering the company she keeps.
Faye knows she has a problem, and she's addicted to booze. She literally found it impossible to go more than a few days without it. That's pretty textbook drinking problem.
I think the proper reaction is "dear god what hell awaits our cast once Faye sobers up?" Not defending her drinking in any way, but this night is headed for seven flavours of disaster that she is by no means prepared for.
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I see some parallels to Dora/Tai: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2914
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The fact that Faye had to intervene to make today's healthy moment possible shows that the passive, takes-all-shit Marten Reed is still in there. I think he's grown enough to have made this right on his own, but not enough to see that there was no sense in waiting.
The thing is though, Marten was between a rock and a hard place, at least in his own mind. He didn't want to break a possible confidence by telling Faye's private business to a relative stranger (to Faye at least), nor did he want to leave Faye alone. On the other hand, he didn't want to subject his girlfriend to drunk Faye, or vice versa, especially considering the two women did not get along with each other very well when Faye was sober. I'm not sure how he could have resolved that dilemma without Faye's intervention, especially since it seems from today's strip that Claire did NOT guess that Faye had fallen off the wagon.
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[...] and Marten is neither equipped nor able to function as her minder/nurse - to expect him to is absolutely unfair on him.
Show me, exactly where, Faye has ever asked -anyone- to be her minder/nurse/maid/moral support/etc (other than going to Hanners to keep her distracted when the urges for booze were strong, reluctantly, might I add - she didn't want to burden her with her problems and said as much, as I recall) - which, imo, was a smart thing to do)? As has been shown time and again, Marten chronically does things in support of his friends, to the detriment of him and/or his relationships.
Faye has actually done the opposite of asking him to stay by her side - she actively called his girlfriend to get her over there because she doesn't want Marten screwing himself over jsut to be her babysitter. If that's not -not- asking for help, I don't know what is.
If a friend offers help without being requested, I don't see how the person being helped is suddenly taking advantage of that friend even if that help wasn't asked for. The logic train has left the station, folks.
EDIT: Alright, I found one instance where Faye asked Marten to talk to her for a while, when she was freaked out after her first date with Angus. Still isn't anything more than asking for a friends ear. If you can't ask that of a friend, then you might as well not have friends at all.
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So, whose gonna take the first watch?
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I think today's strip clearly shows that faye's drinking is not a problem and that her trip to the hospital was entirely due to her housemate's huge over reaction.
Regardless of the need or otherwise to take Faye to the ER (and it was a sensible precaution IMHO), the fact that she could not get through a working day without drinking, and thus got herself fired from her job, is evidence enough that she has a drinking problem.
Speaking for myself: I've been in enough hospitals to understand that the hospitals are in it for the money.
I don't know where you live, but in Australia, this is not true of public hospitals, which are generally the only ones that offer ER facilities. I work at a large public teaching hospital (in IT not medical services), and in my observation, the main non-medical preoccupation is shortage of beds. Patients presenting at the ER with serious conditions often spend hours lying on gurneys while the hospital administration scratches around to find beds for them. The hospital absolutely sends home anyone from ER that it thinks it can get away with.
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Radium_Coyote is from Nevada, according to the profile, and the trend in the US has been toward for-profit hospitals.
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Australia has universal healthcare, according to Wikipedia, and all the evil, deadly things according to the internet.
I am in no way surprised to hear their hospitals are overflowing
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So, when Faye punched Marten in the hospital, did that hit a switch in Marten's brain? Was his overflow of confidence simply stuck, and that punch was like the Fonz smacking a jukebox?
[Note: MrNumbers does not and never will endorse "Punch To The Head" as an effective alternative to psychiatry. Unless it's, like, really good fruit punch.]
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It might have been cheap whiskey (is it whiskey? the bottle shop montage implied it was clear...), but she didn't even finish half the bottle and has a headache. I think Faye is losing her ability to handle booze as 'easily' as she once did. Not such a bad result considering.
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It is good that Marten stuck to his guns this time.
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Is Pintsize still in the freezer?
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Wow...! Faye is about to start crying! From such simple words too! Of course 'I'm your friend' is the hardest thing for her to believe right now and she needs to hear him say it. A nice response to the 'doormat Marten' claims and proof that strength and mildness are not incompatible. You don't need abusive language or violence to be strong.
FWIW, I think that, whilst they need the coffee (all three are for Faye, whether or not Claire realises it), most of sending Claire to the kitchen is so Faye is free to express her emotions without her fear of being vulnerable in front of a near stranger getting in the way.
Is Pintsize still in the freezer?
It's the best place for him right now. We might get an interlude of him and Claire talking more openly whilst Marten is focussed on Faye and thus unable to loom.
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I really want to see Claire finding Pintsize in the freezer with him just in there chilling.
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Intervention and it feels so good. :clairedoge:
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[Note: MrNumbers does not and never will endorse "Punch To The Head" as an effective alternative to psychiatry. Unless it's, like, really good fruit punch.]
But what about a boot to the head? (https://youtu.be/vFldBVWFgWo)
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Someone suggested that May should become Faye's caretaker, and the more I read of this arc, the more I like that idea. She needs someone around the whole time to stop her from doing stupid things, and right now the only one that could fit that role is May. Pintsize (or Winslow) could fit the bill if he was upgraded to a big chassis, but I don't see Marten running around with that kind of money needed to buy a new chassis. Not to mention the mischief Pintsize could create if he had opposing thumbs. Actually, Winslow might be up for the task if Hannelore can spare him for a while. She at least should be able to afford a chassis upgrade for him.
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You're suggesting the foulmouthed, aggressive ex-convict as the alcoholic's caretaker?
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You're suggesting the foulmouthed, aggressive ex-convict as the alcoholic's caretaker?
May has hidden depths and a good side to her; the way she interacts with those she adjudges her 'friends' is proof enough of that. More importantly, she is an aggressive enough personality that Faye wouldn't be able to dominate or intimidate her. The real question is whether she would be willing to take the job. If she did, then I, for one, would expect her to be conscientious about it. That seems to be a universal QC-verse AI personality trait.
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At this point, I assume Pintsize has a small couch, TV, and possibly a mini-fridge INSIDE the freezer for his sojourns there. Half of his acting out is to justify getting away from all the drama to chill in his personal sanctum sanctorum.
"Oh no, I've been bad again, please, whatever you do, PLEASE don't put me in the briar patch freezer again."
Also, when he gets bored, he puts on stunning productions of "Ice Cube Theater." They recently completed a sixty five show run of "Man of La Mancha." The muleteers were played by Pizza Rolls.
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I'm guessing Claire is going to have some sort of important insight into this upcoming scene, but otherwise she seems like a weird addition. I only say that because it seems like the strip is gearing up for some difficult and personal discussions that don't really involve her at all outside of Marten's availability due to taking care of Faye. Maybe she'll be comic relief (or just relief) like she is in this strip.
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You're suggesting the foulmouthed, aggressive ex-convict as the alcoholic's caretaker?
May has hidden depths and a good side to her; the way she interacts with those she adjudges her 'friends' is proof enough of that. More importantly, she is an aggressive enough personality that Faye wouldn't be able to dominate or intimidate her. The real question is whether she would be willing to take the job. If she did, then I, for one, would expect her to be conscientious about it. That seems to be a universal QC-verse AI personality trait.
I still don't agree with that - she generally seems to lack particularly good impulse control, and impulse control is the exact thing that someone acting as, say, an unofficial sponsor for an alcoholic should have.
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I can back up Akima's statement that in Australia hospitals aren't in it for the money and the biggest preoccupation is finding beds. In my state there has been an ongoing scandal about ambulances having to spend ages in waiting areas with patients inside because the hospital can't find a bed for them. The public ones tend to be the only ones who offer ER facilities as private hospitals cater to all the people who want to schedule their operations rather than come whenever a theatre and team become available. I'm afraid the more I learn about America's healthcare, the more grateful I am that I'm Australian.
I'll be curious as to how this plays out. Faye is not very good at confronting conversations and tends to avoid them (usually with threats of violence). I consider it part of the reason her and Angus broke up. She just didn't want to have a conversation of how frightened she was of a long distance relationship, so she just kept telling Angus what he wanted to hear. In todays comic, when she said in panel two that she fucked up and has gotta try not to fuck up again she lacked credibility. Faye gave me the impression more of someone who was telling the other person what they wanted to hear for her own convenience as opposed to someone who sincerely and completely believes they have made a mistake and wants to try to never make the mistake again.
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Even in the US, there are hospitals who happily take people who have no means of paying. One of the psych hospitals I have been in not only tells patients to "not worry about the money", but they will allow otherwise homeless patients to stay as long as they need, whilst the social workers get them transitional housing. Sure, there are probably subsidies involved, but still, relieving the whole money problem can be really helpful.
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It´s nice to see Marten showing some spine and standing up to Faye. And he reached her emotionally, wich is of cause very promising.
I think we´re in for some important talking here. Jeph ist taking a lot of time to prepare the setup before Fayes issues are actually dealt with. This indicates further that we´re in for some heavy stuff. Does anyone here not think about #500-509 "The Talk"? I´m more and more curious where he will take us from here on.
(Maybe three episodes of Yelling Bird vs. Sweet Tits. :-D )
TM
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I really want to see Claire finding Pintsize in the freezer with him just in there chilling.
"S'up?"
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I'm usually supportive of the idea of May helping Faye out.. but there is one thing that she lacks to make a decent care taker or sponsor, and that is a sense of compassion towards others. Sure May will be good at telling Faye when she is being stupid, and will stand up to her when she needs it. But she'll also do it in an argumentative and dismissive way. Which if Faye knows she did wrong will get her to do the whole evasion/back down routine. But at other times will be like trying to put out a fire by throwing gasoline on it. Sometimes Faye is going to need a person to listen and be sympathetic if she's going to make any progress.
She especially needs to talk to someone about the break up with Angus and get her to start thinking about the fact that just because she didn't want to move with him doesn't make her a bad girlfriend, or a bad person. Which is I think the core of why she has been drinking lately. She's been stewing in her own abandonment issues, societal expectations about romantic partners and her feeling that because she didn't want to relocate when Angus got his dream job that she is a horrible person and a failure. All that she's been doing since then, avoiding talking about it with her friends, trying to stay drunk so she doesn't have to think or feel about it. Until she addresses that core problem I don't think she's going to improve. Marten may be able to get her to open up about it.. Doctor Corrine is probably a better choice.
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I don't know that a pro is a better choice, here.
Faye = Dose not want to talk. That she is going to talk could lead to a good place or backfire, spectacularly.
Marten is not pushing the issue, though. so that's good. His statements are objectively true. And he didn't lay on a guilt trip or a threat. There's a danger that "I'm not going to let you push me away," could escalate there, but here's the critical thing as to why I don't think this is job for a pro: Faye's choice not to escalate seems to be tied to the fact that Marten hit the spot. She probably has a lot of reasons to want to force an end to the evening, but she knows that she is pushing Marten away.
I'd argue the possibility that she was accepting that pushing him away was a consequence of her actions, but I don't think and unintended consequence would trigger tears, drunk-ish or not. Marten made her face up to the fact that part of her is trying to break up the team. That Marten isn't going to take that lying down probably creates a lot of emotional dissonance, given the fact that she doesn't like herself much right now, and has unresolved issues about how she has always treated Marten a little less well that he's treated her.
She needs pro help. No question. But this is a breakthrough moment, at least vis-a-vis her value to Marten or to herself.
Sometimes you have to seize the moment. It's not something I'd see as a solution, but it's an important first step that I don't think Faye is capable of taking with someone who isn't a friend. As much as Faye connects with the extended cast, the people she trusts implicitly are Marten and Dora, full stop. I really don't think Dora is an option, nor do I think she will easily reach the point where she's willing to admit that she's risking more than she wants to loose if the opportunity is passed up now.
Pro help is the best long term option, but I think there no chance of her seeking the best if she doesn't grab the lifeline Marten just threw her.
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[Note: MrNumbers does not and never will endorse "Punch To The Head" as an effective alternative to psychiatry. Unless it's, like, really good fruit punch.]
But what about a boot to the head? (https://youtu.be/vFldBVWFgWo)
Whats that? You should have quoted the original instead of the animated ripoff of The Frantics - Last Will and Temperment (https://youtu.be/J5kGUW6M7W0)
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Faye's expression in today's strip are heart-breaking.
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This will either be a good thing or a complete disaster
I hope it's the former.
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Ugh: Two things have happened recently IMO:
First: The inclusion of Claire--she is a massive sook. Everything is dramatic. I can only hope this blows up massively so that Marten comes to his senses and realizes that.
Second: Classic Marten! After being a giant douche about Faye relapsing, and installing himself on the usual Marten Reed soapbox, in 2977 he finds a way to make it all about him.
Second hypothesis: for strip 3000 Jeph does us a favor--Claire and Marten f-f-f-f-fly away and the comic can go back to the amazing and complex characters that have been lost for this annoying little tangent.
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How the hell is Marten making it all about him? It's about Faye, and he's making Faye look at herself and realize that she needs more help than she's admitting.
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Well done, Claire.
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Ugh: Two things have happened recently IMO:
First: The inclusion of Claire--she is a massive sook. Everything is dramatic. I can only hope this blows up massively so that Marten comes to his senses and realizes that.
Second: Classic Marten! After being a giant douche about Faye relapsing, and installing himself on the usual Marten Reed soapbox, in 2977 he finds a way to make it all about him.
Second hypothesis: for strip 3000 Jeph does us a favor--Claire and Marten f-f-f-f-fly away and the comic can go back to the amazing and complex characters that have been lost for this annoying little tangent.
What comic are you reading? lol
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Pleasantly surprised by Claire's reaction/actions in this strip. It might come back later when she's alone in bed and overthinking (don't we all?) but ultimately, she's shown herself to be a great fit for Marten.
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The Claireface in panel 3 is probably one of her most adorable expressions since her introduction to this strip.
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I love Faye's coffee cup. Has it turned up before?
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The cup is super cool. Cheshire Cat goodness.
As for Claire sticking around, I guess that takes care of that. It still kind of sticks out as a weird diversion but whatever, we're about to get into the intense stuff.
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[Note: MrNumbers does not and never will endorse "Punch To The Head" as an effective alternative to psychiatry. Unless it's, like, really good fruit punch.]
But what about a boot to the head? (https://youtu.be/vFldBVWFgWo)
Whats that? You should have quoted the original instead of the animated ripoff of The Frantics - Last Will and Temperment (https://youtu.be/J5kGUW6M7W0)
No love for Ti Kwan Leep (http://youtu.be/LMIfAmQYig8) ?
Also, I love how natural Claire's body language looks in today's comic. Usually she's either slightly stiff looking (when she ran off to buy a fancy dress for the wedding) or her movements are over exaggerated a tiny bit (like in her "I'm helpful" dance)
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I have to say that this strip softened me a little on Claire. I'm still not her biggest fan, because I've said before that I find her a bit immature and not that personally interesting, but it was very nice to see that she took consideration of the situation as it is over her initial discomfort, because this is a very serious situation. Faye needs her friends right now more than ever. Claire's actions show trust in Marten (and Faye as well), and I think that knowing when it's better for you to be scarce is a very good social skill to have.
Interestingly for me, I looked up what a "sook" was, and the example on Urban Dictionary's top result is: "sam had a sook when claire wouldn't sleep with him." Claire has a secret life! That's been the problem this whole time!
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Despite what my posts over the last few months might imply, I really like Claire as a character.
However, just as your friend suddenly becomes insufferable when they start dating a new person, I found Claire (and Marten) suddenly insufferable once the relationship began.
Hopefully this comic signifies a turning point.
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I really want to see Claire finding Pintsize in the freezer with him just in there chilling.
This would have been great for the pun alone. Claire especially would appreciate. Alas, it is not to be.
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I absolutely love Claire in panel 3. She is adorable.
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Well-handled, Claire.
I agree with everyone who is predicting The Talk Part 2: The Talkening, and that the upcoming 3000th strip does provide a great opportunity for shaking things up even further. I'm enjoying the character development for Marten, and hope that Faye undergoes some as well. On a meta level, I think her character needs it to remain fresh and sympathetic, but strictly talking in-universe, observing these people from behind the fourth wall as if they were real...well, she still really needs it. It's not like these issues can be dealt with in a finger-snap, but not only is she still reaching for the bottle, she's still defaulting to threats and abrasiveness to get things done. The night in ER highlighted the problems with the former, but the latter is still a big issue, too.
On the other hand, this is also a prime opportunity for Jeph to troll everyone with a bunch of beat panels before Faye asks "We good?" and Marten replies "We good", and then that's that...but I'm guessing he'll avoid that temptation. ;)
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The Talk 2: Talk Harder
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Despite what my posts over the last few months might imply, I really like Claire as a character.
However, just as your friend suddenly becomes insufferable when they start dating a new person, I found Claire (and Marten) suddenly insufferable once the relationship began.
Hopefully this comic signifies a turning point.
Agree--Claire was great fun a quirky addition. However once they have started dating, Marten has become very 'me' centered (can't be bothered digging up the # but Mom moves in and it's "hey, by the way I'm dating someone" and then in 2977 it's "we have to talk about this" "I'm not letting you push me away" and going WAYY too hard on Faye for relapsing). Ok: he is just trying to help, but he is trying to help in his usual way: Overbearing and rarely listening.
In response to 'chaospersonified': Not trolling--frustrated (admittedly poorly). And yes I know it is Marten's story and the main character isn't going to 'take a wing'. Go back to Claire's performance review: it's somehow a massive problem that she actually has made great serendipitous connections and her superiors are relaxed and gentle employees. Honestly, boo hoo. What did she want? A glowing 10 page precis? There's 'wanting to be a professional' and 'not understanding that other people have ways and means of doing their work' that might be effective given their circumstances. And then her first reaction to Marten wishing to support a friend (really, who hasn't been in that position of having to say to a new partner "hey, my buddy is going through some stuff and I really need to support them tonight"?). Reacting that poorly because you suspect that they are being unfaithful? That's your problem, not theirs.
Having said all of that: today (2978) she actually responded well. Let's hope that she doesn't have to have Faye threaten her to do that every time or we're in for a long summer (winter for me).
Very interested to see how this 'talk' goes. Will Faye actually get to say her piece or is it going to be all 'advice'?
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Jimington, my response was largely due to the unfounded statements claiming a friend recognizing another friend has a problem, and calling them on it, is them 'standing on a soapbox.' If calling your friends out on messing things up that could ruin their lives makes you a douche, then call me a fucking pressure washer, and my friends as well, because I don't think much of enablers. He's not 'making everything about himself,' he's literally doing everything he can to help her, a job description that includes ruining her buzz.
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Firstly, I think that Claire is making the right call here. I certainly understand her desire not to be a third wheel in what is likely to be a very intimate and personal conversation; she likely doesn't feel comfortable with being stuck in the middle of that.
Secondly, I think it's kind of funny the way, in panel 4, Faye and Claire talk over Marten. "Hang on, women talking here, boyo!"
Finally... Is it me or does Jeph particularly like doing portraits of Claire? He does seem to go the extra mile or so to put in detail and flesh out her anatomy and body shape. I'm thinking particularly of panel 1 in today' strip.
P.S.: Where did Faye get that mug? Not just the size but the smiley kitty decoration! I'd really like to have something like that! :-D
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Well played, Claire.
Trust in Marten.
Considering others over herself.
Good judgment of what's needed.
And extracting a promise that her boyfriend will be returned to her undamaged.
She belongs to him. He belongs to her. A matched set, in case that wasn't obvious.
Well done, Jeph.
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So, does that mean that they won't have to go to the Ellicot-Chatham home for orphaned drumsticks?
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Things get funky when the mug goes invisible and there's just Coffee floating in midair grinning at you.
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Hey, so, good Claire, but...
From a narrative standpoint, Claire's involvement in the scene at all has brought this to a standstill.
What has Claire's involvement brought except to remind as that Claireton is a thing?
I'd have much preferred Claire never made that phone call, and we spent a few more panels of just Marten and Faye hashing this out. The phone call, Faye calling back, Claire arriving and now her unceremonious departure... four of five strips Claire's arrival has done nothing to advance the plot, the characters, nothing.
The argument that this is a thing that would happen in real life is irrelevant, because this isn't a real life, it's a narrative. Introducing and then sweeping off a character using this much "screentime" without a real... significance at such a dramatic moment is very poor form.
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I agree there was no need for claire to be involved in this weeks strips but it is good to see her putting her own insecurities on the back burner to allow marten some time with faye.
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What has Claire's involvement brought except to remind as that Claireton is a thing?
Directly? Probably not too much. Indirectly I think a few things. Faye got a ton of points from me for calling back Claire and clearing things up. She made a effort to take responsibility and not drag down Marten with her. Even though she was kinda crude about it I'm pretty shocked that she got a negative reaction from a few people for that.
Claire's showing some trust leaving Marten with a drunk girl who's going to be sobbing in his arms, making a love triangle redo less likely.
And we're a baby step closer to Faye and Claire getting along.
I dub this phantom love triangle 'White August Reeds.'
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What has Claire's involvement brought except to remind as that Claireton is a thing?
This is only a guess but I think that it was mostly to progress the relationship between Faye and Claire. Specifically: No matter how little Faye likes Claire's sassy attitude, she is okay with her being Marten's girlfriend and, indeed, will make a personal investment in the relationship herself.
Personally, I find that interesting to consider. It means that, when she's too drunk to hide her real feelings and attitudes, Faye would prefer Marten and Claire's relationship to succeed, at least at this stage.
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Also (and to answer rfrank as well), QC is a story about a small community; and the comings and goings of the members of the group, and their passing interactions, are as much part of it as concentrating on one single theme to the exclusion of others. Helps keep it real, for one thing; provides variety for another.
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I agree there was no need for claire to be involved in this weeks strips
How about acting to remind us that a problem in one part of the cast does not mean the rest of the universe disappears. Kind of like real life, actually.
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[Note: MrNumbers does not and never will endorse "Punch To The Head" as an effective alternative to psychiatry. Unless it's, like, really good fruit punch.]
But what about a boot to the head? (https://youtu.be/vFldBVWFgWo)
Whats that? You should have quoted the original instead of the animated ripoff of The Frantics - Last Will and Temperment (https://youtu.be/J5kGUW6M7W0)
Only Hipsters value originals. The true essence of a work of art is only revealed by stripping it from the trappings of its implementation.
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Another one of those irregular verbs? I stand up for myself; you are prone to complaint; they are a sook.
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I stand up for myself; you are prone to complaint; they are a sook.
Should I be worried that I don't know what this sentence means? :?
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It's a little joke that I first heard on the BBC comedy series Yes Minister.
This link may explain it better: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotive_conjugation
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"I am firm. You are obstinate. He is a pig-headed fool." - Katherine Whitehorn.
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Hi everyone,
Claire looks very adorable in panels one and three. Nice artwork today.
Apart from that Jeph is still clearing the ground for the things to come, whatever that will be. He has taken a great effort to make sure that everyone is accouted for. I suppose tomorrow we will see Claire saying goodbye again and friday...
... well, something else. Maybe a cliffhanger for the weekend. Next week we´ll get to the heavy stuff.
But Claire shows a good amount of insight today. She has understood that there is nothing to fear about in his situation and that there are things that are more important than the date with her boyfriend. She has gained some sympathy-points in my book today. And I like Fayes mug too. 8-)
TM
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Hey, so, good Claire, but...
From a narrative standpoint, Claire's involvement in the scene at all has brought this to a standstill.
What has Claire's involvement brought except to remind as that Claireton is a thing?
I'd have much preferred Claire never made that phone call, and we spent a few more panels of just Marten and Faye hashing this out. The phone call, Faye calling back, Claire arriving and now her unceremonious departure... four of five strips Claire's arrival has done nothing to advance the plot, the characters, nothing.
The argument that this is a thing that would happen in real life is irrelevant, because this isn't a real life, it's a narrative. Introducing and then sweeping off a character using this much "screentime" without a real... significance at such a dramatic moment is very poor form.
Yeah, this is how I feel. I also don't appreciate Claire's tact, because her initial reaction was myopic and selfish. The date-cancelling-phone-call felt like a relationship speedbump that was pretty lame and predictable (and reminiscent of Marten and Dora's spats), but it was avoided by everyone caring more about each other than themselves. There were totally interesting aspects, like Marten vehemently respecting Faye's privacy about her alcohol problem and Faye using her violent reputation for good, but I can't help but want to get to the actual Marten-Faye discussion.
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Patience is a virtue, you know. :angel:
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One well worth waiting for.
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There will be conversation
Lasting until next Wednesday
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I was thinking that it might last until #3000... :mrgreen:
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Nah, #3000 is just going to be a bunch of naked old dudes (to balance out the naked old ladies in #1000)
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This strip really hits close to home right now, especially on coping with stress.
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Whoa, that was unexpected...
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I said "oh dear" out loud.
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H'oh damn. Was my response.
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Poor Faye. In a way, she now understands. But in another way, it means she's walking his path and now has reached the point where a choice needs to be made. I think, since Marten was smart and insisted on talking with her, that she won't walk her father's path.
I think this will lead to a trip home for Faye, temporarily.
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Looks like we might be learning a bit more about David Whitaker. If it's going in the direction it seems to be, I think a lot of us picked what's coming. Not that that's a bad thing; it's logical, and the story's being told very well.
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I think this will lead to a trip home for Faye, temporarily.
I hope not.
I feel like Faye's mom and sister wouldn't be so helpful to her mental state. Faye's in a delicate place, she needs friends like Marten to help her right now. I'd only support her visiting home if Marten and Hanners came with. That could be interesting, maybe, but I don't know.
A visit from Faye's mom would be better, and it could help with getting information
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It's like there's a word missing from the script and context fills it up.
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Marten has to be Marten. He has to get Faye PAST this point, and it probably won't be easy. but it is an achievable goal.
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Oh, fuck. Maybe it was more than the one milkshake a week for her dad after all :(
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Oh, fuck. Maybe it was more than the one milkshake a week for her dad after all :(
Maybe or maybe not. Suicidal depression =/= alcoholism; she may well simply be referring to that sense of helplessness that points to a final exit stage left.
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"Oh shit." -me reading that last panel.
That one line coming out of Faye's mouth could either mean she knows how her dad felt, or (and this one worries me) she's FEELING what her dad felt right before his suicide.
Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to damn the torpedoes and type faster.
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Dang
Just ........ DANG!
Not to inject humor for humors sake or to take away from Fayes emotional revelation, but I just ran across some of Yelling Birds relatives
http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2015/06/09/guide-birds-might-see-garden-summer/ (http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2015/06/09/guide-birds-might-see-garden-summer/)
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Well, that was heavy and abrupt. At least it's out in the open so it can be discussed.
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Not sure how it is for Faye (or Jeph) but for me the withdrawal induced anxiety was the worst part of drying out from my last Big Bender. The first month was just miserable, basically a running chorus of panel 4 all day.
So I'm wondering how much of this is an alcohol induced funk and how much is "genuine". Faye has a lot more problems than I did but just removing alcohol from my brain for a while made it work better with no change in circumstances. Eagerly looking forward to the next week's strips more than I have in years.
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Only Hipsters value originals. The true essence of a work of art is only revealed by stripping it from the trappings of its implementation.
Those "trappings" are the very existence which gives art meaning. I understand the importance of things outside the spacetime of a given artwork's inception, but you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Yes, I'm purposely avoiding today's comic because DANG, that was depressing. It seems Jeph remains unafraid to strip the concept of "comic" from the trappings of its etymological root in comedy.
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P.S.: Where did Faye get that mug? Not just the size but the smiley kitty decoration! I'd really like to have something like that! :-D
Looks to me like a Neko Bus grin from 'My Neighbor Totoro'. Though I don't know if Studio Ghibli does mugs.
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That one line coming out of Faye's mouth could either mean she knows how her dad felt, or (and this one worries me) she's FEELING what her dad felt right before his suicide.
What it looks like to me is that she sees the road he took in front of her, and the end of that road is off on the horizon - not close, but visible.
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Yes, I'm purposely avoiding today's comic because DANG, that was depressing. It seems Jeph remains unafraid to strip the concept of "comic" from the trappings of its etymological root in comedy.
He's exactly like Batman that way.
Wait a minute...
Have Jeph and Batman ever been seen together?
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My reaction to that last panel: FUCK YEAH! WE'RE GETTING BACK TO THIS!
Now that I think of it, Faye might not have shared that if Claire hadn't left.
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*Snip*
I concede the points made here. With what it did, it did well. Since Faye/Claire was a bit rockier not-too-long ago, this was a more subtle step in a good direction, and I must admit I hadn't considered that angle.
I still stand by that I'd have much preferred today's scene coming five strips ago, and working from that, but I also concede that's a purely subjective gripe, not an objective one.
I agree there was no need for claire to be involved in this weeks strips
How about acting to remind us that a problem in one part of the cast does not mean the rest of the universe disappears. Kind of like real life, actually.
Fiction is Like Real Life But. That argument holds very little sway to me* on its own. Especially when we consider there might have been a different character to show that point while still moving the plot further forward. Immediately coming to mind are Marten's Mom and Dora.
The feeling that there is a larger universe outside this problem is a very valid point, but I think I'd like it more if - as Claire herself said - this scene was just between Marten and Faye. Just for the moment. The bigger world can come creeping in around the edges, or be shown in a simultaneous cut-to, or-
Anyway.
*Emphasis on "To me". This is where I start arguing purely subjectively.
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Dora showing up would have sent the scene into a tailspin, and is less likely than the person Marten is dating at the moment.
As for Veronica moving the plot along further, I'm not sure I see how that figures.
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Also, I know it's bad etiquette to double post, but the message I want to leave here varies so wildly in tone I couldn't in good conscience tack it on to an argument about the nature of fiction niceties.
Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to celebrate the buffer.
Here is to everyone who has had to talk a friend off the edge. The horror that you might fail. The misery of being in that position.
Here is to everyone who has had to be talked off the edge by a friend. The guilt that they might fail. The shame of putting them in that position.
Here is to those who have stared into the void, and felt the void stare back, pulsating with the beat of your thrumming heart but never, not once, blinking.
Here is to those who have dragged others out of the event horizon.
Here is to you, the lonely and the alone on the precipice of the nadir.
Here is to you, who nodded at that last sentence, because you know that sometimes the normal words don't encapsulate the feelings of that unnormal situation. That situation that should be the very antithesis of normal. Fuck abnormal, it's too normal a word, we're using the wrong prefixes.
Tomorrow I meet a friend for lunch to talk them out of suicide. They are the last friend of mine who have comparable levels of brain cooties that has not given up, to use a literal euphemism. Five will get you ten that this will just end on a final goodbye. I imagine I'm feeling a lot like Marten must be right now.
In strip and in life, tomorrow's going to be a big punch in the gut, isn't it? I hope not.
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Would you like to post a copy of that in Pessimism and Depression? May I?
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I don't find today's comic surprising. This is a talk Faye has needed to have with someone for a while now. You can only push this back and forth in your own head for so long before the thought itself becomes poison, which is where she has been since the Angus interview arc started. And really, there are only three people she could have gone to for this talk. Marten, obviously. Dora, who she couldn't go to right now. Once she's in a better place then yes. But talking with Dora would be it's own source of stress now. And finally Dr Corrine. Because you know, therapist. Of the three, she could probably help the most but is the least likely for Faye to go to without some external prompting, or after a revelation on her own. And of course, she gets paid to listen and help. Normally it's probably covered by her insurance, but the status of that is kind of up in the air now. Though I do think Friend Dora wouldn't mind keeping her on the insurance for that either.
Hanners is a good friend, and good to help out going to meetings and keeping busy so Faye doesn't drink. But she would actually probably be bad to have this talk to. Hanners has her own problems and a different way of dealing with life. The best advice she could give would probably be 'go talk to your therapist about this'. As a friend, sometimes that's a hard things to say when you want to help. But it can be the best thing you can tell them.
The last panel actually fills me with hope, not dread. If she was thinking of suicide then she probably would not have brought up her father. What she is feeling now is empathy and understanding. It is my thinking that a huge part of the reason why Faye has been in this holding pattern for years is because she never did really accept her father's suicide. She didn't understand it, or why he would do it. She's been stuck in feelings of loss, hurt, abandonment and confusion over his death. And has hid and drowned those feelings for years. Now that she's had a near death experience because of her drinking and depression she is starting to understand what it is that can drive someone to that final step. To feel like everything is hopeless, nothing will improve. That going on is just to hard to do, with no improvement in sight. And eventually, that feeling that there is only one way to stop the pain. She gets that now that she's been there herself. And since she's survived, thanks to her friend, she can hopefully start to come to terms with both her pain, and an understanding of her father's death. Once she can let that go, then her healing can truly begin.
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I really hope now we get back to the beginning where Faye's spiral began with handling her relationship with Angus. I don't mean to say her depression is caused only by that separation, but by the feelings it stirred for Faye. She went through a lot of self-doubt and wondering what she was hanging on to...I always felt like this break up made Faye feel inadequate. She took that raise from Dora and on the back of that Angus honestly and wrongly assumed that her job wasn't significant to her and she'd just up and go with him. I don't think she knows that the only regret she should shoulder is not the fact she didn't want to leave or be in a long distance relationship, but that Faye and Angus didn't communicate those feelings appropriately to provide any closure with the pain.
And of course now, the booze is not helping and the unfortunate Dora situation isn't helping. Poor Faye :(
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Would you like to post a copy of that in Pessimism and Depression? May I?
Took me just a bit too long to notice that this isn't snide sarcasm...
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Would you like to post a copy of that in Pessimism and Depression? May I?
Took me just a bit too long to notice that this isn't snide sarcasm...
Ha ha, this. It took me a moment to realize there was a thread called that in a section of the forum I hadn't looked at before.
You may absolutely post that with whatever commentary on it you might like. I'm flattered, truly.
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I don't think Faye's feeling suicidal right now. Self-destructive, yes. Shitty? Certainly. I think the connection to her father is an epiphany to her.
I've been to that place. Once. A long time ago. It's a terrifying place. Most people live with the vague idea that there's a reason to live. Something objective. When you find yourself facing the possibility that there isn't, it's like everything becomes a threat.
Maybe it's just me, but suicidal comes when that feeling passes and you still can't think of reason to live. When you are just going forward because that's what you were just doing.
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THREE THOUSAND POSTS BY 4PM
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Would you like to post a copy of that in Pessimism and Depression? May I?
Took me just a bit too long to notice that this isn't snide sarcasm...
I wouldn't. Not about something like that.
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I'm wondering if Faye is suffering from true depression. The description of a 'hole' that she can only fill with alcohol and feeling that her mind is spinning out of control both sound like depressive symptoms. It could also be hereditary. This is the first time Jeph has clearly implied that David Whitaker's suicide may have had a basis in a distinct psychiatric condition.
If Faye really has some kind of depressive disorder, then there will be no easy solution. There will just be bad days. I'm not even sure what her friends can do because these symptoms are often immune to outside stimuli.
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If she was thinking of suicide then she probably would not have brought up her father.
How else would she have to tell it? If suicide is taboo, then it's tough to directly say it. Instead you can beat around the bush by saying it without actually saying it. But remember suicidal thoughts are not suicidal plans.
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If she was thinking of suicide then she probably would not have brought up her father.
How else would she have to tell it? If suicide is taboo, then it's tough to directly say it. Instead you can beat around the bush by saying it without actually saying it. But remember suicidal thoughts are not suicidal plans.
That is what I was trying to say. By bringing up her father, I don't think she was planning suicide. I don't think she was thinking about it in regards to herself either. Not even in the questioning way she talked about when she wrecked her car after her father's death. But rather I think that since she is recognizing the symptoms of depression in herself, she now understands her father better, and how he may have felt.
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I really hope the author doesn't have something awful in mind for 3000, hopefully the heavy handed foreshadowing rules out faye hurting herself.
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I guess a lot of this is from Jeph's own well-documented experience.
No, I don't think Faye's going to top herself, but there could still be some drama, upheaval, revelation or breakthough.
since she's survived, thanks to her friend, she can hopefully start to come to terms with both her pain, and an understanding of her father's death. Once she can let that go, then her healing can truly begin.
That's certainly what I would like to happen.
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No, I don't think Faye's going to top herself, but there could still be some drama, upheaval, revelation or breakthough.
Personally, I think that Faye isn't the only one who will have a revelation/breakthrough.
The thing is that Faye likes to project an air of strength and independence and her friends respect that. They respect that she wants to be able to deal with her own demons and confront her own problems in her own way and in her own time. What Faye is heading towards admitting here is that she can't do this on her own. She needs her friends help and in a lot more intensive way than the semi-detached moral support that they currently offer.
Faye wasn't ready to accept this before, making such close support difficult to offer. However, I do think that she's now approaching readiness to accept just how severe her need is for such help.
I've mentioned this a few weeks back when Hanners vented to Marigold. Hannelore cannot be the only one to give Faye the hands-on close support that she needs or she'll be overwhelmed herself. That means that Marten and Dora's lives will probably be interrupted a bit because of Faye's situation but, IMO at least, that is what she needs right now. Just until she's got enough of a foundation of her own to be able to confront the matter more independently.
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I just wanted to pop in quick and give Jeph some major props for the continued improvement and display of skill in the more complex poses and view angles that he's using with his characters in the last few weeks. Many more frames are set not as profiles or as 100% forward poses, and the work looks really good. It adds believability, emotion, and a great deal of subtext to the comics and I think it makes them even more enjoyable to read. No one ever accused Jeph of not caring about his characters, but to continue to work on improvement this many years in shows a level of commitment not many artists show. Kudos, Jeph.
As to the storyline of late, it hits home for lots of us. Faye is going through stuff I personally had to deal with at a younger age, and it's comforting to see her have a Marten and a Hannelore to lean on. Whatever happens between her and Dora in the long run [not everything broken can be repaired], I do feel like there is an honesty and grace that is coming through in the writing and the portrayal of the characters.
Carry on, please!
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My first thought on reading Faye's semi-wham line was this: She's being manipulative again. It's a trait of hers, especially toward Marten, and always around the theme of "Don't Leave Me."
Whether she has some emotional/psychological need that's filled by "Marty" being in her orbit or whether he's good for half the rent on what looks to be a pretty sweet apartment for the local market, she wants him in that orbit. Juuusst outside the atmosphere, mind, but in orbit nonetheless.
She's a fierce, protective friend; that's (IMO, of course) her endearing trait. She's also manipulative, a trait I find revolting in real-world humans (though props to Jeph for depicting it oh so well).
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Gah. There are too many possibilities for that last line. Does Faye finally understand her Dad because he was an alcoholic or because he decided death was less painful alternative to life? Roll on Friday.
I'm inclined to think the latter as Faye and her mother's confusion about why he killed himself seemed genuine, but there is always the possibility of denial.
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I have been there, Faye. I'm not an alcoholic, but I have certainly been in the place where every possible road ahead looks like hopeless bullshit and the temptation to take the shortest road is strong.
Faye has something I didn't. She has Marten. She'll get through this.
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Corinne almost prescribed Faye antidepressants eight IRL years ago (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=990), but went the natural route instead. Who knows if they would've helped, or if she'll consider them now?
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Panel 4 today. It's a minor thing, but that angle/pose really points out how Jeph's art style has improved over the years. I know someone else already mentioned it above, but I wanted to echo that sentiment.
Also, I want to second the motion that yesterday's Claireface was one of the greatest Clairefaces of all time.
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I really hope the author doesn't have something awful in mind for 3000, hopefully the heavy handed foreshadowing rules out faye hurting herself.
*shudder*, that would be harder to read than the recent Gunnerkrigg Court episodes.
Besides what you pointed out, another reason for hope is something Faye's therapist observed. Faye's got a core of inner strength to draw on. That doesn't fix depression but it does mean the depression has to leach away all of her will power before it can finish its job.
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I totally get what Faye is doing and why.
(yes I know it is a comic still I can't help by sympathize with this characters as if they were real)
(no I don't have many real world friends most of my friends are tethered to me by an invisible thread through the interweb)
For me Drugs (Marijuana) and Alcohol provide a safe place where I like to hide from the world when I get scared at the idea that I'm not the kid I still think I am, but an actual Adult.
The whole Faye story arc is really hitting close to home.
Thankfully I reserve my "Holy $#!+ I'm an Adult" freak-outs to the weekends and never allow it to flow into my professional life. I don't know what I would do if the two blurred and my hiding place was taken into the workplace.
The last panel about her Dad was what brought an actual tear to my eye as I recalled my own childhood of my own Father and his struggle with Alcohol. Thankfully he sobered up before he died and I actually saw the man my Mother fell in love with was a kind gentle loving man who I wish I could one day become.
So Damn you Jeph I do love you man but damn you for touching me a little too close to home.
I don't know how some people would feel but maybe offer up some helpful info for anyone who might need help with Drugs or Alcohol .. I don't mean for you to step on a soapbox or anything but seriously man I feel like you are knocking on my window trying to get my attention.
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Corinne almost prescribed Faye antidepressants eight IRL years ago (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=990), but went the natural route instead. Who knows if they would've helped, or if she'll consider them now?
Faye was not at all thrilled with the prospect of taking antidepressants, which was why Dr. Corinne didn't prescribe them. I strongly suspect Faye didn't want to take them because she felt she'd just be replacing one chemical dependency (alcohol) for another. If I'm right, then there's little reason to think she'll feel any differently now.
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Corinne almost prescribed Faye antidepressants eight IRL years ago (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=990), but went the natural route instead. Who knows if they would've helped, or if she'll consider them now?
Faye was not at all thrilled with the prospect of taking antidepressants, which was why Dr. Corinne didn't prescribe them. I strongly suspect Faye didn't want to take them because she felt she'd just be replacing one chemical dependency (alcohol) for another. If I'm right, then there's little reason to think she'll feel any differently now.
IIRC, Faye also completely stopped seeing Corinne after a while. If she kept coming back, maybe she would be taking anti-depressants at this point.
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Faye's storyline has hit home for me as I have an addiction (that isn't alcohol or drugs, but is still quite life altering and affects my relationships in a really negative way). Every single paragraph, especially wondering what is left at the end, is something I think about on a daily basis.
The answer to that, I think, is friends, and distractions. Time lowers the chances of relapse, although as a recent relapse after a long period of time (last night in fact, so waking up to this comic specifically was quite significant) has shown me, doesn't negate it entirely. But I think with Marten around, Faye will shape up as time goes on. She's got the required level of fight and sass.
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Constant reader but never expected to post,
I'm British and we have a slightly different way of looking at drinking: I'm always a little aghast at how easily the term 'alcoholism' is bandied about in the States. This being said, panels 2 and 4 are perhaps the best short description of such I have read in many years- uncannily accurate (with maybe a side order of panic attacks but that might just be me).
Please carry on the good work.
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Perhaps a bit Mccab, but I've always wondered at the idea of alcohol making people not care or feel better. One of the reasons I don't drink much anymore is alcohol just amplified whatever I was feeling inside. It never cancelled out the depressive feeings, just made them 10x worse.
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Same, which is why I don't drink unless I'm happy for the most part.
(Also, Mccab = macabre, right?)
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Perhaps a bit Mccab, but I've always wondered at the idea of alcohol making people not care or feel better. One of the reasons I don't drink much anymore
is alcohol just amplified whatever I was feeling inside. It never cancelled out the depressive feeings, just made them 10x worse.
It does both, in my experience, depending on the quantity I drink, and how I already feel going in. If it's just me and a bottle of whiskey, alone with my thoughts, it's terrible, but give me things to do, something to write on, or a people to talk to, I'm suddenly a happy drunk. The depression hits in the morning, when you're left alone again with the sense you're lesser than other people because you needed alcohol to be happy for a few hours.
That's the morning after, though; that's hell on just about everyone. While you're drunk, it just comes down to your brain's chemistry, I think. Are you a happy, angry, mopey drunk, and you seem to be a sad one.
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Alcohol is literally a depressant, it just slows down the things that make some people sad, and offers an escape from the daily reality of neurotic overthinking for those of us with that issue.
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Gah. There are too many possibilities for that last line. Does Faye finally understand her Dad because he was an alcoholic or because he decided death was less painful alternative to life? Roll on Friday.
I'm inclined to think the latter as Faye and her mother's confusion about why he killed himself seemed genuine, but there is always the possibility of denial.
I got the impression it was both. I think she just realized her dad was an alcoholic (remember him sneaking around with his drinks? His shared "secret" with Faye?), and simultaneously realized why he committed suicide.
...as for Faye's mom, she may have been aware that her husband had a problem with drinking (hence her discouraging him from doing so), but have genuinely not realized he was an alcoholic. Either that, or was in denial.
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I'm sorry for posting before lurking for a while, but I only found this forum because I wanted to find an explanation. I found all the posts from the day she fell of the wagon saying "This fits an alcoholic/this doesn't" but it still, after this many comics, feels like a leap to calling her that. She is solving her issue with Angus with alcohol, which is bad, but it's not the only way she solves her problems is it? She can enjoy herself with her friends without it, even though she enjoys it. She got fired from her job for using it as a coping mechanism only days after the breakup, the very first time she had ever had an alcohol related incident at Coffee of Doom. I can fully understand that having done so was bad, but for that one incident to say "clearly you have a problem," seems way off. In this case, Faye says she feels like more of a failure for drinking. Isn't that unnecessary? I've struggled with suicide and depression since I was a kid. About two years ago I had a "breakup" with the church I was immensely involved with in which I've said the exact same lines as Faye about thinking I was stronger than I was and knowing the fault was mine and not theirs. Last year I got arrested and charged with an alcohol related misdemeanor. But for all the failure I feel, I don't let myself consider drinking a failure, because it's not my only coping mechanism, and it makes it a lot easier to enjoy being around people at all, when I might wander the Pit alone in my apartment without it. I can and have (and have legally been forced to) gone many months without it without feeling like I need it - I just can't go out as much because the social anxiety is too much.
Faye wants to stop the wheel a bit. She's just been through a really hard life event, which also led to an immensely depressing feeling of failure. She needs to learn to cope with this another way, but why is coping with it the wrong way once enough to label her as something for the rest of her life? She's handled alcohol normally plenty of times, why can't she learn to do so again? I understand that addiction is a disease and that addicts can't learn to use it correctly, the question I can't get over is: Besides the past two weeks in comic time, what evidence do we have that this is an Addiction, rather than an Unfortunate Event caused by a poor choice?
Honestly, I was at lunch at work when I read this strip and started crying at the last panel because that's the worst realization when you realize that you understand, and sometimes even agree with someone you know having killed themselves. This one hits really close to home, so I can't really help but see this from her side. I need help understanding the other side.
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I'm sorry for posting before lurking for a while, but I only found this forum because I wanted to find an explanation. I found all the posts from the day she fell of the wagon saying "This fits an alcoholic/this doesn't" but it still, after this many comics, feels like a leap to calling her that. She is solving her issue with Angus with alcohol, which is bad, but it's not the only way she solves her problems is it? She can enjoy herself with her friends without it, even though she enjoys it. She got fired from her job for using it as a coping mechanism only days after the breakup, the very first time she had ever had an alcohol related incident at Coffee of Doom. I can fully understand that having done so was bad, but for that one incident to say "clearly you have a problem," seems way off. In this case, Faye says she feels like more of a failure for drinking. Isn't that unnecessary? I've struggled with suicide and depression since I was a kid. About two years ago I had a "breakup" with the church I was immensely involved with in which I've said the exact same lines as Faye about thinking I was stronger than I was and knowing the fault was mine and not theirs. Last year I got arrested and charged with an alcohol related misdemeanor. But for all the failure I feel, I don't let myself consider drinking a failure, because it's not my only coping mechanism, and it makes it a lot easier to enjoy being around people at all, when I might wander the Pit alone in my apartment without it. I can and have (and have legally been forced to) gone many months without it without feeling like I need it - I just can't go out as much because the social anxiety is too much.
Faye wants to stop the wheel a bit. She's just been through a really hard life event, which also led to an immensely depressing feeling of failure. She needs to learn to cope with this another way, but why is coping with it the wrong way once enough to label her as something for the rest of her life? She's handled alcohol normally plenty of times, why can't she learn to do so again? I understand that addiction is a disease and that addicts can't learn to use it correctly, the question I can't get over is: Besides the past two weeks in comic time, what evidence do we have that this is an Addiction, rather than an Unfortunate Event caused by a poor choice?
Honestly, I was at lunch at work when I read this strip and started crying at the last panel because that's the worst realization when you realize that you understand, and sometimes even agree with someone you know having killed themselves. This one hits really close to home, so I can't really help but see this from her side. I need help understanding the other side.
I think this week's storyline put that debate to bed.
The fundamental difference is in how easy it is to stop.
Alcohol was problematic for me, in that I suffer from depression, and alcohol triggers that badly, even half a glass of wine once left me feeling suicidal for a week. However, I never felt a need to drink. I only drank once in a while, and once I made the decision to quit, it was easy for me not to go back to drinking. Ergo, I am not an alcoholic.
My wife, on the other hand, long before we met, drank daily, attempted multiple times to stop (even relapsed after rehab one time), and couldn't — in the end, she always had to come back to the drink. It took another stint in rehab (this time a supportive and female-only rehab) and AA to keep her sober. She's now 8 years sober, and I am so fucking proud of her for that, because I know what a challenge that is for her, even today.
Faye's story reflects my wife's. Her behaviour this week just proved it. Yeah, she's definitely an alcoholic.
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This is not the first time Faye has been shown drinking to cope with stress. In fact, drinking and violence are her primary ways to deal with stress most times. She's always been seen as a 'hard drinker' to her friends. Nor is this the first time she's been drinking at work 'Emergency bourbon'. All of that put together wouldn't say that is an alcoholic. Probably that she drinks to much, but she is young and in a college town, so that's not unusual. It may well have contributed to how bad she crashed when she did have to go to the hospital. Being a habitual drinker her tolerance to alcohol is likely quite high. So she would have to drink a lot to make the noises in her head stop for a while. In any case, it is a horrible and self destructive way to avoid problems for a while, on all counts.
What really pushed it over the edge for many people was her behavior after the breakup. Trying to stay drunk constantly. Lying to friends about how much she is drinking. Hiding and sneaking drinks at work. And now a craving, a need to drink not to feel going, but to avoid feeling bad for a little while. Those are all signs of addiction.
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The thing that most points to Faye being an alcoholic is her inability to stop. To give some contrast: I am not an alcoholic. I can drink as much, or as little, as I choose, and lately I choose for that to be very little. When I was Faye's age I drank way more than was good for me, but was always able to stop - it's just that at times I chose not to stop.
Faye can't seem to make that choice. She decided to stop, then relapsed quickly. She knows she needs to stop, but can't. This is no longer about trying to use alcohol to escape her problems - alcohol has become the problem that is destroying her life. That's the definition of an alcoholic.
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They could be wrong, of course, but her friends have been alarmed before this.
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1108
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=981
BTW, over in RELATE there's a thread about alcoholism (https://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,30691.0.html) that is getting less traffic than it deserves. Discussions and experiences posted in the WCDT will be harder for people to find later. I haven't done a topic split since the posts here are so relevant to the comic.
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see also http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=808
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Wow, I always forget how early Angus showed up. It took him what, three or four real life years to go from "that guy" to "boyfling". About the same amount of time as it took for him to go from "boyfling" to "ex", actually.
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It's easy to miss when Angus first shows up. He's very much like a background character. Sometimes I wonder if he's a background character who got a radical promotion.
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I hope we see him again.
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(reads new strip)
(stands up)
(applauds)
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Woo! Go Faye!
Now it's just time for the follow-through, but that baseline resolve is a lot of the battle, I imagine.
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Way to go Faye!
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This strip also pushes the question of why Faye's dad killed himself back into the "Jeph isn't going to tell us" box.
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This strip also pushes the question of why Faye's dad killed himself back into the "Jeph isn't going to tell us" box.
It's not important. It's a thing that happened, and it informs Faye's character, and the characters of the few she's let know.
Pretty sure it's rare to get information about why someone killed themselves years later anyway; call it realism if it helps
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Also, Faye doesn't know. He left no note and didn't tell anyone that we know of. Without some serious Dues Ex we're not going to find out soon.
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Literally, almost - it would pretty much take either some kind of time window or a visit from Pluto.
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Heart attack averted.
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She may have an idea, though, that depression runs in the family. She knows mom had it.
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So much for my predictions for the rest of this week and the next...
I have to admit something: the only thing right now that impresses me more than the QC episodes of the last days is this forum and the insightful postings of it´s members concerning addiction and alcoholism. I´ve never been addicted to substances, so it is quite difficult for me to really relate to Faye´s problems. But in the past days I´ve read so much about this topic here, written by people who have been there, who have struggeled (and are still struggeling) with substance abuse. And by doing so I´ve learned more about it in the past few days than in my entire 46 years before.
So I wish to express my respect to everyone here. Thank you very much.
On the other hand I kinda feel that there is only very little I can contribute to this discussion. You are expressing thoughts so insightful, that everything I could come up with has mostly already been said before, and much better than I would ever be able to, not beeing a native english speaker. But that´s OK for me, I am enjoying reading the discussion here right now very much.
So Jeph wrapped up a lot of the stuff I was expecting next week in the last two episodes. Staight to the point, no pussyfooting around the issue. Very well done. And now there will be a week of guest comics. I wonder if Jeph will pick up the conversation between Faye and Marten after his vacation or if he will get straight to the conseqences Faye´s decision wil have on her life? There is a whole lot of possibilities how Jeph can handle this situation and were he can take us from here.
Also he has drawn impressingly good portraits of Faye´s face in the past episodes. Someone said it before, he has shown her from various different angles, using perspective to underline her emotions. It´s not only showing her from different sides, it actually looks like as if she is moving her head as she speaks. This expresses her uncertaincy and emotional turmoil and makes the things she says even more intense. Very good work. Just take a look at the small reflections of light in her glasses.
One week. One goddamn f***ing week!
How are we supposed to hold up for so long? ;-)
TM
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I'm more and more convinced that this arc has been very autobiographical and personal to Jeph. I'm fairly sure that Faye here is saying something that he said or at least thought, maybe around the time of the hand incident.
That said, this isn't over and dealing with this will need much more than Faye's usual anger at the world.
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Well, first post. Can I admit that I cried?
I've been reading since at least 1500 posts ago. I just spent 15 minutes trying to find the exact strip, but can't. I'd know it if I saw it.
Not exactly the same context with alcohol, but the emotions here are spot on. I've been there so hard. Thanks Jeph. It's really cathartic to read this kind of thing.
Man I read the text and started crying again. So powerful. Holy shit.
Thank you.
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Also, Faye doesn't know. He left no note and didn't tell anyone that we know of. Without some serious Dues Ex we're not going to find out soon.
Is what I was saying.
Faye's mom might come up to show support, maybe she could provide information. Maybe there was a reason she was so against Faye's dad drinking, maybe Faye was treated to more milkshakes towards the end than she recalls, but I'd be seriously surprised if any new information surfaced after so long
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Anger is an energy. It can be transmuted into unreasonable compassion, unreasonable determination, unreasonable patience and charity, and an indomitable determination to never give up, never give in.
Without such transmutation, it can end in becoming bitter and twisted. Self-destructive.
Faye is not her father. She's angrier. But knows the trick of transmutation.
:-)
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Loving the PiL reference there.
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Lookit Faye, all motivated and insightful!
So, as others have said, it's an interesting and maybe autobiographical monologue. I kind of expected something like this after yesterday's 'I know how my dad felt'-pseudo-wham!-line, but I didn't expect it to sound like a motivational speaker. It takes a little from the impact, I think, because these are not 'dramatic' moments, actually. Why would Faye string Marten along, and have him worry for her complete speech instead of telling him beforehand? It's the most important information, really, and it changes the tone of the whole conversation. Usually, I don't mind if dialogue gets switched around for drama, but this feels.. forced? Like the ending of a 'very special episode' of an American children's or teenager's TV series?
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The Talk 2: Talk Harder
Also, I'm happy that Faye's ready to start really living.
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And that's how you handle relapse. Good on ya, Faye.
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I have to admit something: the only thing right now that impresses me more than the QC episodes of the last days is this forum and the insightful postings of it´s members concerning addiction and alcoholism. I´ve never been addicted to substances, so it is quite difficult for me to really relate to Faye´s problems. But in the past days I´ve read so much about this topic here, written by people who have been there, who have struggeled (and are still struggeling) with substance abuse. And by doing so I´ve learned more about it in the past few days than in my entire 46 years before.
So I wish to express my respect to everyone here. Thank you very much.
The same for me. I've only ever been on the very outside of substance troubles, and I mostly just transfer what I know about domestic violence and abusive relationships over to how I think of it.
For example, a person in an abusive relationship isn't in a "normal" circumstance and might behave in ways that don't make sense to me. A person addicted to a substance isn't in a "normal" circumstance and might behave in ways that don't make sense to me. Blaming people, trying to force them to be in a "normal" situation, yelling, threatening, etc., don't change their situations. Both of them only have the chance to get out when they choose to/have the right opportunity, and even then, they'll often return to the not-so-great situation. I was told (I used to work on a rape and abuse crisis line) that it takes an average of seven attempts to leave an abusive relationship for good, and even then, there is a pretty decent chance that the violence can escalate and the victim will be harmed, stalked, or even killed, which is one of the many major reasons that people don't leave. It's dangerous to leave. It's hard to leave someone, it's hard to quit using a substance, and facing yourself, loneliness, feelings of inadequacy or shame can be powerful.
I can't purport to know what's it's like to be in that scenario, so my job is to be sympathetic and offer as much assistance as I can, but avoid telling people what to do, even if I think I know what's best. That's been my modus operandi for talking about both of these scenarios, even though they aren't that similar and I don't fully understand either.
Seeing the posts on this forum help me understand better. I want to thank all the people who talked about their own struggles, even if they were difficult or painful to discuss. I think that it's better to try to get these things out in the open and for many people to realize that they are not alone, and that others struggle with something similar. I think these discussions do make a difference, and I am grateful that others are willing to help us get there.
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Pro help is the best long term option, but I think there no chance of her seeking the best if she doesn't grab the lifeline Marten just threw her.
Before jumping to judgments, and I know this comic has never really focused on money (because how boring would that be), but it's important to keep this in mind when thinking about this and more importantly about real life people with substance abuse issues...
Professional help may be the best long term option, but for a LOT of people it is simply financially impossible. Outpatient addiction treatment in the U.S. has an average cost of $10,000 a month. That jumps to $28,000 if you're talking about a live-in facility. Often only covered partially by insurance if at all. If someone can afford to feed their addiction but couldn't possibly afford addiction therapy, they're going to choose the former.
And before you say "well they'll save money by getting sober." someone living to paycheck to paycheck doesn't actually have the means to think about spending a lot of money now to save more in the distant future.
It's obviously a broken system, badly in need of being fixed. But it's something to think about if you ever think "well maybe that person should get real help."
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They also have to want to get better. One of the coffee shops that I worked at, there was one guy was only fired after he refused rehab. The bosses were more than happy to pay for it, even though they didn't have to, but he still wouldn't go.
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And that's how you handle relapse. Good on ya, Faye.
Yes. Life isn't about how you get knocked down; it's about how you get up again. Over and over and over again.
They also have to want to get better.
This always key. If people do not want to change themselves, all attempts to do it for them are ultimately futile.
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How many therapists does it take to change a light bulb?
Just one, but the bulb has to want to change.
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Yes. Life isn't about how you get knocked down; it's about how you get up again. Over and over and over again
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Yes. Life isn't about how you get knocked down; it's about how you get up again. Over and over and over again
I get knocked down, but I get up again, you're never gonna keep me down...
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Somehow I'm not sure that a song that celebrates abusing alcohol as the means of getting "back up again" is quite what you want to use here... :-o
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Somehow I'm not sure that a song that celebrates abusing alcohol as the means of getting "back up again" is quite what you want to use here... :-o
I'm not sure if I follow. The song is about political process, the term 'tubthumping' is a political one referring to how politicians can go around trying to raise money, if I recall correctly.
I don't even know, with the video, I just saw the phrase 'get knocked down' followed shortly thereafter by 'get up again,' thought 'fuck yeah, chumbawamba,' and decided I'd have my particular earworm infect all of your brains.
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the mention of alcohol =/= the abuse thereof, though considering everything, listening to the song again, it definitely seems that's what's happening.
The title of this song, I find bizarre, considering they chose a political title, then describe a dude getting drunk. Maybe there's context to this "Danny Boy" that we don't know. Who the eff was this Danny, and why did Chumbawamba care that he did not cry for them? :psyduck:
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...You obviously have no idea who Chumbawumba is.
"Irish Anarchist Punk" would be the best description.
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...You obviously have no idea who Chumbawumba is.
"Irish Anarchist Punk" would be the best description.
Never claimed I did. Wikipedia calls them Irish Anarcho-punk, which is more information than I cared about. The song's catchy as eff. Not especially quality, but damn fun. That's what I care about
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Aaaand
I'm getting 'This Video is not available' on that
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Aah, Chumbawamba. I´ve got the CD with the song on it. The booklet says about tubthumping:
"Tubthumping" is shouting to change the world (than having a drink to celebrate). It´s stumbling home back from your local bar when the world is ready to be PUT RIGHT...
There is also a quote of the poem "Get Drunk" by Charles Baudelaire:
Always be drunk.
That's it!
The great imperative!
In order not to feel
Time's horrid fardel
bruise your shoulders,
grinding you into the earth,
Get drunk and stay that way.
On what?
On wine, poetry, virtue, whatever.
But get drunk.
And if you sometimes happen to wake up
on the porches of a palace,
in the green grass of a ditch,
in the dismal loneliness of your own room,
your drunkenness gone or disappearing,
ask the wind,
the wave,
the star,
the bird,
the clock,
ask everything that flees,
everything that groans
or rolls
or sings,
everything that speaks,
ask what time it is;
and the wind,
the wave,
the star,
the bird,
the clock
will answer you:
"Time to get drunk!
Don't be martyred slaves of Time,
Get drunk!
Stay drunk!
On wine, virtue, poetry, whatever!
Charles Baudelaire, 1866
I saw Chumbawamba life about 15 years ago. A big dissapointment. Uninspired and obviously they only wanted to get over with the gig. No encore even thought the audience shouted for one.
But the album is still very nice. Sometimes, when I´m in a bad mood there is nothing better than catchy social-critical songs about what in the world has to be PUT RIGHT!
TM
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I saw Chumbawamba life about 15 years ago. A big dissapointment. Uninspired and obviously they only wanted to get over with the gig. No encore even thought the audience shouted for one.
But the album is still very nice. Sometimes, when I´m in a bad mood there is nothing better than catchy social-critical songs about what in the world has to be PUT RIGHT!
TM
i never saw them as political just stereotypical drunkards, so that part is news to me. I'll listen to Drop Kick Murphys or Black 47 or even early U2 for Irish political music instead.
I can dig what you're saying here but that's when I throw on "London Calling", turn the stereo and my amp up all the way & play my Telecaster along with Joe's rhythm guitar line. Doesn't change anything in the world but it will make the foul mood go away.
Dragging this back, kicking and screaming, to topic, Faye needs to find something she can use to chase the black dog away. Perhaps that's her sculpture or perhaps something else she's never tried before. But change has to come in her life if she's going to really stop drinking and considering it's fear of change that drives much of it, this could still be a very long haul.
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She could always build a brick fence
*Shrug* Worked for Churchill
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Before jumping to judgments, and I know this comic has never really focused on money (because how boring would that be), but it's important to keep this in mind when thinking about this and more importantly about real life people with substance abuse issues...
Well, now, I never said she could afford pro help, though she'd already gotten a therapist, and she's probably still insured for a little bit (unless the time gap is bigger than let on.
Still, I was just responding to someone else saying that Marten wasn't the best person to have a talk with. And he's not the best. But, to paraphrase the philosopher Rumsfeld, you go to war the Marten you have, not the Marten you wish you could get.
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It's not about how hard you hit, it's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done!
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Didn't Rocky lose?
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He lost his first title match. Then he won the title two more times. And the quote is from the sixth movie in which... he also lost. But on points, to a man forty years younger than him.
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But still walked tall from the ring
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i never saw them as political just stereotypical drunkards, so that part is news to me. I'll listen to Drop Kick Murphys or Black 47 or even early U2 for Irish political music instead.
Have you ever heard of, ah, literally anything they wrote other than Tubthumping? No, really, literally anything? I mean, maybe they're just a bunch of drunks compared to the Bostonians named for a rehab center...
("Tubthumping," incidentally, means "campaigning.")
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Have you ever heard of, ah, literally anything they wrote other than Tubthumping? No, really, literally anything?
I got a feeling that's a no.
I have a similar feeling it would be a 'no' from the vast majority of people who sing that song at karaoke.
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i never saw them as political just stereotypical drunkards, so that part is news to me. I'll listen to Drop Kick Murphys or Black 47 or even early U2 for Irish political music instead.
Have you ever heard of, ah, literally anything they wrote other than Tubthumping? No, really, literally anything? I mean, maybe they're just a bunch of drunks compared to the Bostonians named for a rehab center...
("Tubthumping," incidentally, means "campaigning.")
Of course not. I heard that song and wrote them off as drunkards and idiots.
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Just because they sing the songs that remind them of the good times? Or because they mix whiskey, vodka, lager and cider?
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Just because they sing the songs that remind them of the good times? Or because they mix whiskey, vodka, lager and cider?
Hmmm...
*squints*
You would judge me, wouldn't you? Drinks go in order from what you like to what you can afford to what you can scrounge up.
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Of course not. I heard that song and wrote them off as drunkards and idiots.
...um... how much Dropkick Murphys have (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpIVk2AY3sw) you (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8sFdW5h4C0) heard (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbZMgEGrccs)?
(And if I weren't restricting myself to legal uploads...)
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They were referring to Chumbawumba. (Legal as in uploaded by the band or record themselves? Why restrict yourself so?)
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I know - but they'd compared them unfavorably with DKM, two of whose singles are "Barroom Hero," which is pretty much the same basic idea, and "The Spicy McHaggis Jig," which is... not exactly Yeats. (The third I linked, "Sunshine Highway," is more thoughtful, about a rehab frequent flyer.)
I'm harping on this a bit - and I do have a soft spot for DKM - but to praise them while writing Chumbawumba off based on that one song struck me as... bizarre.
(Also, laws are pointy little things.)
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I mean, I never considered myself a HUGE Dropkick Murphy's song, but I know enough to randomly recognize what douchebro Mcgee is playing in the middle of thecnight on his guitar.
I learned their music through Pandora and later youtube searching, but I got no clue what those songs sound like, Near Lurker. Singles don't have power in today's world.
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DKM has a few songs that pretty much any hockey fan would recognize two seconds in.
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I just know "Shipping Up to Boston" and "(F)lannigan's Ball" (Guitar Hero 3).
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When I saw Chumbawamba life I had the impression that some of the band members were pretty drunk. Increasingly so during the gig. :-D
But the songs I know (wich are pretty much all on the album "Tubthumper") are mostly not about drinking ones ass off, but rather about social themes. Workers rights, coalminers stikes in the 80´s, corruption of working union leaders, high rents for small flats and so on.
Many of these songs can be counted as protest songs, taking an anarchistic or socialistic stance. As far as I know Chumbawamba was a kind of anarchistic non-profit band then, giving its winnings to civil rights organisations or small protest groups. The members of the group changed very often, when I saw them life I recognized only about half of the band from the pictures of the booklet. Especially the female leadsinger was someone else than on the album (and not nearly as good, voice-wise).
Nonetheless the other songs on "Tubthumping" are nice and catchy too. If someone happens to stumble over the CD secondhand for a good price I´d recomment buying it.
TM