THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)

Fun Stuff => ENJOY => Topic started by: Edguy on 15 Feb 2016, 09:29

Title: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Edguy on 15 Feb 2016, 09:29
The cycle begins again!
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Kugai on 15 Feb 2016, 13:20
All is three





 ;D



Though I admit that that gets cut off at the wrong point and misses Zathras' line about his own fate

"Go now, Zathras' place is with The One Who Was."
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Gladstone on 15 Feb 2016, 16:53
It would be kinda weird if Episode VIII picked up immediately after VII left off.  But it would also be weird if it picked up sometime later and resorted to using flashbacks.  But it was also weird showing Rey's Force vision, not to mention Anakin's dream about his mother in Ep II.  Sticking to the episodic, straightforward storytelling used in the Holy Trilogy kinda makes it hard to try anything new, I guess.

Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 15 Feb 2016, 19:07
Given the amount of criticism VII got for retreading the original, I would be surprised and disappointed if they didn't take a different direction. Basically, I hope they are about to do something that's far from obvious. What that could be is... well... far from obvious. Obviously.  8-)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: BenRG on 16 Feb 2016, 05:03
It would be kinda weird if Episode VIII picked up immediately after VII left off.  But it would also be weird if it picked up sometime later and resorted to using flashbacks.  But it was also weird showing Rey's Force vision, not to mention Anakin's dream about his mother in Ep II.  Sticking to the episodic, straightforward storytelling used in the Holy Trilogy kinda makes it hard to try anything new, I guess.

From what I've heard, Episode VIII will at least partly backtrack and follow Luke's story from the time of Ben Turning to the Dark Side to Rey's arrival on his hermitage-world.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Kugai on 16 Feb 2016, 15:19
Hmmmmm

I'm just wondering from his outfit if Luke's gone all Grey Jedi on us.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Edguy on 20 Feb 2016, 07:28
Carrie (and Gary) Fisher confirm that Space Bear is the working title for Star Wars: Episode VIII
 (http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/news/658921-space-bear-star-wars-episode-vii#/slide/1)

I hope this doesn't mean we see a return of the Ewoks..
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 20 Feb 2016, 10:15
Working titles don't mean shit, although now I'm expecting the title to be Blue Harvest.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Kugai on 20 Feb 2016, 12:25
I think they're just baiting the fans 
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: BenRG on 20 Feb 2016, 13:49
Carrie (and Gary) Fisher confirm that Space Bear is the working title for Star Wars: Episode VIII (http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/news/658921-space-bear-star-wars-episode-vii#/slide/1)

I hope this doesn't mean we see a return of the Ewoks.

Or maybe everything from Chewbacca's POV?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Neko_Ali on 20 Feb 2016, 16:12
They give movies, especially ones expected to be high profile, fake names during shooting. In part to throw people trying to find shooting of 'Star Wars' unofficial stuff. Throwing paparazzi and such off track. Which makes it stupid and pointless to tell people what name the movie is shooting other.. I expect it was changed shortly after the 'reveal'. If not outright faked from the start.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Edguy on 20 Feb 2016, 17:19
I know, it's like that with all kinds of projects. However, production names are usually relevant to some degree. It might be central to the plot (tho probably not) or it might be something related to some minor detail the crew found funny, or some intern running gag.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 24 Feb 2016, 13:05
Yes, and in this case the running gag probably started with a bunch of interns trying to work out how to make fans paranoid that the ewoks were coming back.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: SubaruStephen on 24 Feb 2016, 18:11
I'd rather have ewoks back than Jar Jar.






ANYTHING but Jar Jar!
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 24 Feb 2016, 18:25
That is not exactly a resounding endorsement of ewoks.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Kugai on 24 Feb 2016, 21:57
Howabout Ewoks BBQing JarJar then?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Neko_Ali on 24 Feb 2016, 22:12
Yub Yub!
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Edguy on 25 Feb 2016, 03:58
Tastes like chicken?!
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Neko_Ali on 25 Feb 2016, 06:14
More like tastes like crap...
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Edguy on 25 Feb 2016, 07:11
You just need a good sauce!
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Neko_Ali on 25 Feb 2016, 08:47
It's Ewoks. They'd just shove a meiloorun in his mouth and roast him on a spit...
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Gladstone on 26 Feb 2016, 21:23
J.J. Abrams: Gay Characters Coming to ‘Star Wars’ (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/02/26/j-j-abrams-gay-characters-coming-to-star-wars.html)

Pure clickbait.  Abrams, who has no creative control over the next two episodes or any of the other upcoming films, is only saying that he thinks there could be gay characters in one of the movies someday, maybe.  Anyway, Disney would probably never allow it, for fear of losing a few million in ticket sales.

That said, I still have my fingers crossed for Poe/Finn.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 26 Feb 2016, 21:39
My interpretation (which is as valid as any other until episode VIII proves otherwise) is that Poe is gay and Finn is bi. I'm still all about the Puffin though.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Gladstone on 26 Feb 2016, 21:50
That's been my interpretation as well.  Love me some cocky gay hotshot pilot.  And it almost seems to be the direction the next one is taking, with Rey off training with Luke and unavailable for romance.  Wouldn't be too much of a stretch for Poe to help nurse Finn back to health, then take him on a secret Resistance mission as a copilot/gunner, where sparks fly.  I know I've said that already, but heck, repeating it can't hurt.

Of course, the Brand!New!Gay!Character will actually be someone who gets a minute or two of screentime and barely a hint at their sexuality, and the folks at Disney will still manage to pat themselves on the back for being bold and inclusive.  Sigh.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 27 Feb 2016, 05:23
Even if Disney doesn't admit it, we still know
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Kugai on 27 Feb 2016, 12:23
And just to throw us all off they'll drop the bombshell that Han left Leia for Luke


Yes, I know I'm an evil bastard  >:D





Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Gladstone on 27 Feb 2016, 17:31
And just to throw us all off they'll drop the bombshell that Han left Leia for Luke

Heh, just read something along those lines (http://reys-finn.tumblr.com/post/140028861467/oh-no-oh-no) last night:

Quote
the number of times in the original trilogy that han rescues luke from danger or tells him to be careful or just generally worries about luke’s well-being and makes it his personal business to ensure luke is safe
luke disappearing for decades
han coincidentally leaving at the exact same time
and coincidentally saying that he and chewie have been traveling all over the galaxy in the time since (“i knew we should’ve double-checked the outer rim territories!”)
and coincidentally saying that he’s spoken to several people who “knew luke best” about where luke may have gone and what he might be doing
and coincidentally insisting that bb-8 stay with him instead of going with finn and rey when their group comes under attack
and coincidentally demanding to see the map
and coincidentally immediately knowing that the map is incomplete
because he’s been looking… for luke… this whole fucking time…

Yeah, it's Tumblr.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: mustang6172 on 04 May 2016, 19:45
Turns out Star Wars day is Margaret Thatcher's doing.

http://www.people.com/article/history-of-star-wars-day

So now that's ruined forever.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 05 May 2016, 04:22
I love Star Wars, and I love bad puns, but I've always thought "May the fourth be with you" was way too, well...forced :claireface:
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Neko_Ali on 05 May 2016, 06:11
Don't worry. Today you can have the revege of the fifth.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 05 May 2016, 07:00
Doesn't revenge of the sixth work better?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Neko_Ali on 05 May 2016, 07:18
No.... Though it does happen on the sixth. Because that's definetly when you'll be feeling the revenge of the fifth you finished off for Cinco de Mayo   :claireface:
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 05 May 2016, 07:58
Indeed. But seriously, how is sixth not closer to sith than fifth?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Neko_Ali on 05 May 2016, 09:07
I don't make the memes. I just repeat them.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 05 May 2016, 15:28
Indeed. But seriously, how is sixth not closer to sith than fifth?

Viral memes care not for your logic.

But I feel better about all of it after your pun. Not bad. Not bad at all.*  8-)

* No, I refuse to quote Vader.**
** And no, now I refuse to quote Luke. Stop it.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Kugai on 05 May 2016, 16:52
Impressive.

Most impressive
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Edguy on 10 Aug 2016, 16:27
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Akima on 11 Aug 2016, 05:36
They have trailers for trailers, now?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: BenRG on 11 Aug 2016, 05:42
They have trailers for trailers, now?

IKR! Building hype has become an industry all of its own!
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Edguy on 11 Aug 2016, 10:10
Dude Ant-Man had a teaser image for an announcement poster for a teaser trailer.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 15 Aug 2016, 18:23
And that was fucking Ant-Man. Don't get me wrong, I love the shit out of that movie (my favorite Marvel of 2015), but the movie itself was pretty much a trailer for Civil War.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Kugai on 22 Sep 2016, 18:30
Just thought I'd share this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt9l7WdHEZ0
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: LeeC on 21 Oct 2016, 14:35
Donald Glover has been cast as young Lando in the Han Solo spin off movie!!!!!
http://www.starwars.com/news/donald-glover-cast-as-young-lando-calrissian-in-upcoming-han-solo-star-wars-stand-alone-film (http://www.starwars.com/news/donald-glover-cast-as-young-lando-calrissian-in-upcoming-han-solo-star-wars-stand-alone-film)

(http://i.imgur.com/MnSvIaT.gif)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 21 Oct 2016, 19:10
I saw that and I'm so ridiculously happy.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: jwhouk on 23 Dec 2016, 16:07
Carrie Fisher hospitalized after suffering a heart attack on plane bound for LA (https://www.yahoo.com/celebrity/report-carrie-fisher-suffers-cardiac-arrest-on-plane-223246732.html)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Kugai on 24 Dec 2016, 11:23
Saw that.  :(

Hope she recovers.  2016's been a bitch of a year for loosing people, hope she recovers and we get to see her on screen again.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: jwhouk on 24 Dec 2016, 14:37
We already lost Kenny Baker.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Kugai on 25 Dec 2016, 14:08
I know.

Saddest part of that is the fact that I was not aware of the animosity that existed between him him and Anthony Daniels.  It's sad when you hear about things like that and know that the passing of one will mean that the situation will never get resolved.  Both were good men otherwise, it's just silly when you hear about such petty disputes that should be easily sorted out but aren't and now never will be.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: jwhouk on 27 Dec 2016, 10:36
Welp.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Blue Kitty on 23 Jan 2017, 10:01
[tweet]823561256078548992[/tweet]
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 23 Jan 2017, 10:55
That's a bad title and it should feel bad.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: BenRG on 23 Jan 2017, 11:03
Actually, it sounds about right if it has a significant plot about everything Luke has done since Return of the Jedi, particularly since Kylo Ren's little... episode.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 23 Jan 2017, 11:21
Sure, but does that mean there won't be any more Jedi after Rey? Ever?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Neko_Ali on 23 Jan 2017, 11:45
More over, I've heard implications that the last Jedi is Luke. Which means he won't train Rey or anyone else to be a Jedi. Or he will train them to be something else. Something outside the Jedi/Sith, Light Side/Dark Side split. When you see what the Force has done to his family, especially recently, it could be not surprising that he's less than eager to try again to pass on the knowledge.

Of course, the title may not be entirely accurate. Some Jedi did escape and go into hiding after the Clone War. And some did eventually take on students. We don't know what happened to Kanan and Ezra from Rebels at this point in time. Both are still of an age where they could be alive though. And even if nobody is passing on the traditions of the Jedi, that doesn't stop Force sensitive people from being born.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Case on 23 Jan 2017, 12:11
Uhmmmh ... that title sounds vaguely familiar?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Kugai on 23 Jan 2017, 13:42
I'm just wondering if it means the end of the Jedi Order as it was, with Luke essentially being the end of that line and the birth of something different.  Leaves me wondering if this will also see the end of Kylo 'The Whiner' Ren and Snoke as the last of the Sith side of that as well.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Case on 23 Jan 2017, 15:42
Wait a sec - what is the plural of Jedi?

:-D

Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 23 Jan 2017, 15:43
I think it's Jedi.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Case on 23 Jan 2017, 15:44
Soooooooooooh - Why should 'The last Jedi' refer to a single Jedi?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 23 Jan 2017, 16:59
Holy cow. Greatest Star Wars film title yet. Shut up and take my money already.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 23 Jan 2017, 17:56
Soooooooooooh - Why should 'The last Jedi' refer to a singleJedi?
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: TheEvilDog on 23 Jan 2017, 18:21
Soooooooooooh - Why should 'The last Jedi' refer to a single Jedi?

It could also refer to the end of the Jedi philosophy.
If Anakin Skywalker destroyed the Sith, maybe his descendants are meant to destroy the Jedi and end the cycle of destruction and rebuilding that has plagued the galaxy.

Kylo Ren isn't a Sith, he's something else.
Maybe Rey and Finn are meant to become something other than Jedi as well. Luke's just mean to be the last one to pass on the foundation to them.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 23 Jan 2017, 18:23
Kylo Ren may not be a Sith, but Snoke?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: BenRG on 23 Jan 2017, 23:38
Leaves me wondering if this will also see the end of Kylo 'The Whiner' Ren and Snoke as the last of the Sith side of that as well.

I think it is highly significant that Snoke and Kylo Ren do not use the 'Darth' prefix traditionally used in 'Sith' names. Whilst they're darksiders, they're not Sith. They don't follow the teachings of Darth Bane or trace a lineage to the rediscovery of the arts of Korriban. The Sith are already extinct and the entire Star Wars saga be an extended story about how Force Sensitives moved past from the old era of the traditions drawing a line back to the ancient orders of Jedi and Sith and have to find a path forwards that does not have that bloody baggage tangled around it.

It might be interesting if the Bendu turned out to be right - that the antagonism between Jedi and Sith ultimately leads to both traditions' extinction.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Blue Kitty on 24 Jan 2017, 06:48
(http://68.media.tumblr.com/2d7fca66ccbc4cd1aedb43f7345a8e85/tumblr_ok9bidyvUe1v6bmupo3_1280.jpg)
(http://68.media.tumblr.com/0580f7e6aaf9d99b0a0373ad5193386a/tumblr_ok9bidyvUe1v6bmupo2_1280.jpg)
(http://68.media.tumblr.com/375bc8518ffc575859d956e13eea750a/tumblr_ok9bidyvUe1v6bmupo1_1280.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: TheEvilDog on 24 Jan 2017, 07:54
Nah, it'll be in keeping with the similarities between the original and prequel films.
 (http://alexplorer.net/starwars/movies/sw-parallels.html)

In which case we'll probably see the main character get their arm chopped off...
But on the plus side, we'll also probably see a bounty hunter and some battle scene involving walkers.
And C-3PO will probably get dismantled.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 08 Apr 2017, 02:34
This isn't strictly the correct thread, but stuff it.

The late Carrie Fisher will appear in 'Star Wars: Episode 9', says brother Todd Fisher (http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/late-carrie-fisher-final-star-wars-movie-article-1.3030154)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: shanejayell on 08 Apr 2017, 10:53
Hopefully existing footage and not the odd CGI stuff they did in Rogue One.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: BenRG on 08 Apr 2017, 14:28
I can't see how it could be anything else but CGI, Fisher had barely finished principal photography on The Last Jedi at the time of her death.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: TheEvilDog on 08 Apr 2017, 14:56
There's talk about her daughter stepping in for at least part of the role and then digitally altering her to resemble Leia. Just to allow Carrie Fisher the dignity of giving her and her most famous role a proper send-off and not just saying the Leia has passed away.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 09 Apr 2017, 02:38
From the article (my emphasis):

Quote
After months of speculation about Carrie's future in the sci-fi saga, Todd has revealed that Disney bosses want to bring Princess Leia back for Episode 9. And he said he and Carrie's daughter, Billie Lourd, have granted the studio rights to use recent footage for the finale. It is understood that CGI will not be used to recreate Leia.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: LeeC on 14 Apr 2017, 09:07
Trailer Just Dropped!
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Case on 14 Apr 2017, 09:52
Trailer Just Dropped!

(https://i.imgflip.com/pkw28.jpg)


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: BenRG on 14 Apr 2017, 12:54
Yeah... I previously got the impression that the Sequel Trilogy arc would be like this:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Kugai on 14 Apr 2017, 16:01
So,both the Sith and the Jedi have outlived their time and must fade into history

To be replaced

By  what?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: hedgie on 14 Apr 2017, 16:06
Duct tape, which has within a single strip both a light side and a dark side.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 14 Apr 2017, 23:48
Completely contradicting what I posted earlier:

Kathleen Kennedy confirms Carrie Fisher won't be in 'Star Wars: Episode IX' (https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/movies/2017/04/14/kathleen-kennedy-confirms-carrie-fisher-not-in-star-wars-episode-ix/100486934/)

Sorry I posted bad info.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Kugai on 15 Apr 2017, 16:13
How do you break the Jedi/Sith Cycle?

You find another path.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Case on 16 Apr 2017, 04:23
Last Jedi singular or plural? The official SW 8 titles in French, Spanish and German translate as "The last Jedi (plural)", seemingly clarifying the confusion.

The German title e.g. is "Die letzten Jedi" (plural) as opposed "Der/Die letzte Jedi" - since German is an inflected language, it would be impossible not to specify singular/plural (and gender, if singular) in the title - it's not just pronouns, everything is gendered. However, director Rian Johnson said that in his mind it's "last Jedi", singular. Which could mean ... anything, really (I mean: He's only the director, wtf does he know ...?).

For forumites that can read Kraut: http://www.filmstarts.de/nachrichten/18511798.html The article also mentions that there was similar confusion prior to ROTJ's release in December '83: Its German title is "Die Rückkehr der Jedi-Ritter" - i.e. "Return of the Jedi-Knights" - so they got a little smart with the audience back then: while arguably, it did feature two Jedi (Luke and Yoda), the movie never showed more than one living Jedi at any given time.

The German plural may also hint at another 'deception': Assuming there's really only one Jedi in the movie, choosing the singular form for the title would then have forced them to specify the gender of that last Jedi - either "Der letzte Jedi" (male) or "Die letzte Jedi" (female) - making it a major spoiler (So maybe there really is just one Jedi left (Luke), and Rey is something else, but Disney Germany went with the plural to avoid spoilering).

TL;DR: As the Huns say: "Nichts genaues weiss man nicht"  (roughly: "No specifics unknown")
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: BenRG on 16 Apr 2017, 05:48
It clarifies two things for me:

1) Ezra Bridger is not alive at this point in the time-line (or, if he is alive, is no longer identifying himself as a Jedi);

2) Rey will never train an apprentice of her own in the traditions of the Jedi.

To me, it all fits into this implication that the Jedi-Sith conflict is drawing to a conclusion. It's going to be a draw with something new rising up from their combined ashes. Something to do with the Balance.

I wonder... Will the Bendu play a role in the outcome to all this? Some people are asking if Rey will be a 'Grey Jedi' but the point is that a Jedi is a disciple of the Light as a Sith is a disciple of the Dark. The followers of the Grey Path seem to use the name 'Bendu'. I wonder if Maz Kanata may be a Bendu adept too. Some things she said in The Force Awakens suggest to me that she has hidden depths.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 16 Apr 2017, 08:19
I won't stop expecting Mace Windu to show up in some form until the end credits roll on Episode IX.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Case on 16 Apr 2017, 11:29
I won't stop expecting Mace Windu to show up in some form until the end credits roll on Episode IX.

Sh-Shhhhkyyy-WalKERRRRRRRH?


(http://pre15.deviantart.net/a359/th/pre/i/2015/026/7/0/zombie_mace_windu_by_jasons21-d8fhyqd.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 16 Apr 2017, 14:39
...sure, why not.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Kugai on 16 Apr 2017, 16:14
Now that would be a hell of a Plot Twist.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: LeeC on 21 Apr 2017, 05:03
(http://i.imgur.com/CCj7X9o.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: JoeCovenant on 24 Apr 2017, 03:27
re: the last line in the trailer...

Surely that's an amalgamation of Kylo and Luke's voice?
(First part Kylo, last two words, Luke?)

I know for this particular trilogy they have previous for doing such things in trailers that are not heard in the movies...
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Case on 13 Sep 2017, 06:25
"He’s back: J.J. Abrams will replace Colin Trevorrow as director of ‘Star Wars: Episode IX’" (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/comic-riffs/wp/2017/09/12/hes-back-j-j-abrams-will-replace-colin-trevorrow-as-director-of-star-wars-episode-ix/?tid=hybrid_collaborative_1_na&utm_term=.770bafe5871c)

Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 13 Sep 2017, 06:35
Ehhh, I can't say I'm surprised. I'm not expecting much from any of the future Disney Wars movies.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: JoeCovenant on 13 Sep 2017, 08:26

It is a shame that Leia won't appear in the final movie.
I must admit, I can't help but think it's a bit narrow minded.
She doesn't need to be pivotal to any part of the film, but one would imagine that if the Skywalker Saga wraps up in the 9th film (as lucas always said, then denied he ever said, and then said he'd always said) there will be some "Return of the Jedi" style closing shot, and surely they could have slotted her in there with a minimum of effort/fuss.

SHAME, Disney... SHAME!

(https://media.tenor.com/images/b7795b796da4711ce70de48c18cdec6e/tenor.gif)

(although I'll be the first to laud them if they decide to sneakily announce this near to release!)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 13 Sep 2017, 08:43
Or if they don't announce it and it happens, and we get genuinely surprised by a Star Wars movie for the first time in close to four decades.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Neko_Ali on 13 Sep 2017, 08:56
They don't want to include Leia in any scenes because there was a big outcry against it when Carrie Fisher passed away. That may not hold true in a few years when Star Wars 9 is being made.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 13 Sep 2017, 09:00
They could have Billie Lourd play Leia, and have nobody call attention to the fact that she looks suddenly younger. Or if someone does ask, she waves it away with "the Force works in mysterious ways".
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: BenRG on 13 Sep 2017, 09:01
I believe that Todd Fisher, Carrie's brother, specifically stated that the family would oppose Disney's use of Carrie's image in any way post mortem in any production she was not a living part.

The whole thing was very complicated and confused with Disney first saying that they were talking to Carrie's family about it and then Todd first vetoing the idea, then being cautiously accepting. Then Disney finally announced that they were not planning to do a Peter Cushing with her image. Mr Trevorrow's resignation appears to be an outworking of that confused situation.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: JoeCovenant on 13 Sep 2017, 09:35

Well, they've got about 15 months or so to see sense.
It would be a travesty if she were left out... or if Leai *died off camera*

Fisher deserves SO much more than that, and if it's her families fault... well... I guess they don't understand their own mother (read The Princess Diarist - her family's actions utterly contradict her pride and sense of responsibility in the role of Leia.)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: LeeC on 10 Oct 2017, 17:42
Saw the new Star Wars 8 trailer.  I like the ambiguity of Rey's allegiance to the black and white sides of the force.  I also liked the internal conflict in Kylo.  I was not a fan of them bringing power levels to Star Wars.  Also Luke seems like a punk.  Still sorting out how I feel about the trailer.  Will totally see it in theaters.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 10 Oct 2017, 17:53
I'm still looking forward to seeing it, and in particular to seeing a very large number of people's expectations being thwarted. The previous film's trailer was a masterclass in misdirection, and I expect no less from the upcoming film.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Neko_Ali on 10 Oct 2017, 18:33
I dunno. Maybe it's just the general depression I've been in but I just didn't get that excited about the trailer. I normally would eat up anything to do with Star Wars but I saw this and just went.. eh. I was more excited over the Rebels Season 4 trailer. Then again I like and am far more interested in the Rebels characters than any of this cast.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: TheEvilDog on 10 Oct 2017, 19:26
I've never been a huge fan of the films, so I'm rather meh about the whole thing.

But based on similarities between The Phantom Menace/A New Hope/The Force Returns and keeping those in mind, here are my predictions for The Last Jedi.
- The Heroes will pursue some sort of droid.
- A bounty hunter will show up.
- Rubbish will be used in an attempt to decoy an attacker, but they'll see right through that, because no one would fall for that three times, right?
- Someone will be unmasked.
- C3PO will get dismantled, leaving R2D2 to try and reassemble him during a battle.
- Someone will lose an arm, probably Rey or Kylo Ren. She'll get a robotic arm to replace it.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 10 Oct 2017, 20:28
Do you literally expect to be able to tick off your laundry list, or is just your wry expression of your low expectation of originality?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: TheEvilDog on 10 Oct 2017, 21:00
Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 10 Oct 2017, 22:51
Well, I don't actually expect the film specifically to resemble The Empire Strikes Back myself, for whatever that is worth.

It probably won't be wholly original, but no Star Wars film is.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: BenRG on 10 Oct 2017, 23:55
We already know that they're recycling the most iconic part of The Empire Strikes Back: Specifically the battle between small fighter-craft and Imperial walkers. They're also ripping off Darth Vader's Super Star Destroyer by giving Lord Snoke a super-giant 'flying wing'-shaped flagship that leaves me wonder if J J Abrams is compensating for something.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: TheEvilDog on 11 Oct 2017, 04:38
Well, I don't actually expect the film specifically to resemble The Empire Strikes Back myself, for whatever that is

You do realise that The Force Awakens resembled The Phantom Menace which in turned resembled A New Hope. A mentor figure dies in the first film of the trilogy - Han died to a Force user as did Qui Gon as did Obi Wan. A lone pilot blows up the massive station in the finale of the first film - Am I talking about Poe Dameron, Anakin Skywalker or Luke. Likewise, the heroes have to get off a desert planet with little law to deliver a vitally important message - Jakku or Tattooine (twice)?

In turn Attack of the Clones resembled The Empire Strikes Back, as did Revenge of the Sith to Return of the Jedi.

Star Wars has become formulaic. The whole series is interchangeable at this stage, just swap out characters and the plot remains pretty much the same.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: LeeC on 11 Oct 2017, 06:00
I am hoping to be surprised with a new freshness with this one but we wont know until next month.  I am expecting them to set up something similarly to tESB but then something goes horribly wrong.  Rey takes to the dark side (where Luke decided he'd rather throw himself off a cliff).  Leia doesn't escape from the rebel base (where as before Han pulled her off the base and ran from the empire).  Finn and Poe do not try to lay low (like Han and crew) but to go after Rey/fight the first order.  I am just expecting them to set it up so we feel like they are regurgitating the old film but only to then reverse throttle into something different at every opportunity.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 11 Oct 2017, 06:18
Instead of Rey turning to the dark side or Ben turning to the light side, how about they meet in the middle, and be something like Mace Windu?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: LeeC on 11 Oct 2017, 06:27
I think that is the main story arc for 7-9.  They become what the fans call "grey jedi." Tapping into both light and dark, making them more powerful.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: BenRG on 11 Oct 2017, 08:06
FWIW, the 'grey path' Force adepts are called 'Bendu' and have been hanging around in the background for a while, in-universe. I suspect that Luke has found out something about their teachings and that is what is in the books he is shown giving Rey in the trailer. If Abrams follows Lucas's own writings, those books are the Book of the Whills, the oldest 'how to...' book on the Force in the galaxy (probably more than slightly based on the RL Kabbalah).
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 11 Oct 2017, 08:07
Ehhh, if it's not in the movies it's not absolute canon to me, but that's still interesting. Thanks!
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Neko_Ali on 11 Oct 2017, 08:35
There is a lot of background stuff that's been going on since Disney took over that says they are heading towards a combined Force. And a lot in movies 1-3 and Clone Wars that laid the ground work of it.

First of all, the prophecy from the prequels. 'The one who will bring balance to the Force'. Jedi being what they are assume that means someone who will get rid of the Sith once and for all. Which is the exact opposite of balance. With the Force divided between the Jedi and Sith the balance of power swung back and forth, often leading to great chaos and even open war. Most of the conflicts that are talked about are directly or indirectly caused by this imbalance. Movies 1-6 were all about the conflicts that came about because of Palpatine seizing power and devastating the Jedi.

In one of the later seasons of the Clone Wars Anakin and Ahsoka were stuck on a planet that was the balance of the Force personified into three people. The older father figure that represented the balance, the son which was the dark side and daughter which was the light. The father was weak and dying while the children fought over the land, which was tearing it apart. From these things we can see the groundwork being laid to the final fate of the Force and the importance of the Skywalker line in it.

Rebels gave us Kanan and an older Ahsoka both of which who were Jedi trained but gave it up, understanding the flaws inherent in their philosophy. There was also the character Bendu who instructed or advised Kanan and Ezra who says he's from a time older than the Jedi and Sith, when the Force was just the Force.

Rogue One gives us Jedha and the temple there, protected by the Guardians of the Whills, like Chirrut. All of these references have been floating around in the background for some time now. And then there is the movie title The Last Jedi, and trailers where Luke is saying it's time for the Jedi to end. The Sith order are already at an end with the deaths of Palapatine and Vader. Kylo Ren and presumably Snoke use dark side power, but they are not Sith.

In the end I think it will be the Skywalker's destiny to bring balance to the Force by destroying the Jedi and Sith and removing the philosophical fracture between them, leaving the Bendu and others like them to teach the way of the Force combined.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: LeeC on 11 Oct 2017, 08:52
In legends wasn't there some force users that taught Luke to use both sides of the force.  Its just the force but how you use it really defines if you are evil or not?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 11 Oct 2017, 08:59
Legends?

Edit: Oh, the EU.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: TheEvilDog on 11 Oct 2017, 09:34
FWIW, the 'grey path' Force adepts are called 'Bendu' and have been hanging around in the background for a while, in-universe. I suspect that Luke has found out something about their teachings and that is what is in the books he is shown giving Rey in the trailer. If Abrams follows Lucas's own writings, those books are the Book of the Whills, the oldest 'how to...' book on the Force in the galaxy (probably more than slightly based on the RL Kabbalah).

The Bendu (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bendu) has since become canon and integral to the interregnum period between the two completed trilogies.

Ehhh, if it's not in the movies it's not absolute canon to me, but that's still interesting. Thanks!

Funnily enough, when Disney bought Star Wars, they've established what is 100% canon and what is not. Currently thats:
- The original trilogy, the prequel trilogy and the forthcoming trilogy.
- The Clone Wars series and pilot film.
- The Rebels series and accompanying supplementary material.
- Star Wars Insider, fiction magazine, beginning with issue 149.
- Any information from StarWars.com.

What's still up in the air regarding canon are the Fantasy Flight Games RPGs (Edge of the Empire, Age of Rebellion and Force and Destiny), the novelisations of the first six films, the earlier spin-off films (Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure, Ewoks: The Battle for Endor) and series (Star Wars: Droids, Ewoks and Clone Wars (2003 series) respectively). The Old Republic is also a special case, due to how its still ongoing but its still not considered canon.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 11 Oct 2017, 09:41
Disney can say what they want, but as far as I'm concerned, only the trilogies and the spin-off movies are true canon. Everything else is secondary. Also, "any information from StarWars.com"? Canon shouldn't be that easy to change.

Also, they specifically mentioned the trilogies but not the spin-offs...does that mean that Rogue One isn't canon?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: TheEvilDog on 11 Oct 2017, 09:47
Considering that Disney now owns Star Wars, they're the ones who decide what is canon, not you. You might think that the rest is secondary, but at the end of the day, they're the ones who spent $4 billion to have their say about canon.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 11 Oct 2017, 10:06
They spent $4 billion to make billions more in merchandising and box office sales. They can make their claims, and I wouldn't tell them to stop, but I don't have to acknowledge them. I never thought George Lucas's view on canon was particularly better, but at least the different levels of canon were sort of widely acknowledged.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 11 Oct 2017, 13:06
Well, I don't actually expect the film specifically to resemble The Empire Strikes Back myself, for whatever that is

You do realise that The Force Awakens resembled The Phantom Menace which in turned resembled A New Hope. A mentor figure dies in the first film of the trilogy - Han died to a Force user as did Qui Gon as did Obi Wan. A lone pilot blows up the massive station in the finale of the first film - Am I talking about Poe Dameron, Anakin Skywalker or Luke. Likewise, the heroes have to get off a desert planet with little law to deliver a vitally important message - Jakku or Tattooine (twice)?

In turn Attack of the Clones resembled The Empire Strikes Back, as did Revenge of the Sith to Return of the Jedi.

Star Wars has become formulaic. The whole series is interchangeable at this stage, just swap out characters and the plot remains pretty much the same.

It hasn't become formulaic. It always has been. A New Hope is itself formulaic.

Same goes for the merch. George Lucas was just as cynical about it from the very first film. This isn't somehow new. Rewatch Spaceballs if you need convincing.

The Disney films aren't in some way less worthy of our attention than any other film in the franchise. If you don't like them, then of course that is your prerogative. No-one said you had to like them, canon or otherwise.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Akima on 11 Oct 2017, 15:35
The thing about "canon" is that it has to be a shared, generally accepted view to mean anything at all. To say "that's not canon for me" is to say no more than "I don't like that". Shakespeare's canon, for example, is essentially just the accepted text of the works accepted by most scholars as being written by him. For one individual to decide that, say, Hamlet is "not canon" just doesn't really mean anything. This shared nature of canon makes "ownership" of the canon a peculiar concept. Could Disney buy the rights to J.R.R.Tolkien's books, and declare that the Silmarillion was not canon? Would it mean anything if they did? Does the fact that a canon is the work of a single author make a difference?

Long-running fictional "universes" with multiple authors are a relatively new thing (I'm not going to get into traditional collections of often-anonymous stories like the Ramayana, Greek myths etc. where questions of "ownership" don't generally arise*). I think comic-books are probably the earliest  example, and, even where one publisher has controlled the property since its creation, re-boots, re-imaginings, multiple universes etc. typically make continuity and canon meaningless. Even the owners of properties less tangled than comics, like Star Trek, for example, pay no real attention to the continuity of their universes, where it might get in the way of telling a good story, or just lazy writing (Yes, Star Trek: Enterprise, I am looking at you).

It seems to me that "canon" has changed its meaning to something like "officially recognised" which is quite unlike its dictionary definition. Beyond that, I don't think canon is a thing any more.

*Questions of ownership, and canon, definitely do arise with regard to the traditional collections of stories that are regarded as religious works, but the fictionality of them is arguable, and potentially likely to cause offence, so it's best to leave them out, I think.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 11 Oct 2017, 15:38
I don't know if the majority of people agree with me that the "canon" of Star Wars refers to the movies and nothing else, but it's a far cry from just me. Canon discussions rarely go well, so...I probably shouldn't have brought it up. I'll work on doing that less.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Neko_Ali on 11 Oct 2017, 16:16
In this case it's an important distinction because of the widespread and greater mythos around Star Wars through dozens of writers of novels comics and other adaptions. Lucas pretty much let everyone go willy-nilly with what they wanted to do, but the understanding was only the movies were canon unless he said so. Disney dropped a firm line of what is and isn't canon, and it does include the official alternate media since they took over, plus the Clone Wars cartoon as well as the movies. That's not something that's open to interpretation. Kind of like saying the Earth is flat. People can think it is all they want, but the reality of the situation is they are wrong.

In the end it was probably the best way they could handle it. The long standing book series have developed a life of their own, but it would conflict with everything Disney wanted to do. It would have been the same case if Lucas was in charge of the sequel trilogy.  But they still left it open so that they could pull elements they liked from Legends, like Grand Admiral Thrawn, and use them in the canon universe.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 11 Oct 2017, 16:21
but the reality of the situation is they are wrong.
...how, though? For decades, the movies are canon view worked, but just because Disney suddenly decides otherwise, that's no longer even a valid alternative?

Edit: My point is, they can use whatever they want in their future movies if the books are secondary and that they can be rendered no longer true if the movies contradict them, but declaring that the books are movie-level canon restricts them more, does it not?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 11 Oct 2017, 17:46
I'm with Akima on this one. If you want to discuss "canon," then you want at least to be clear on motivation, because if it's to mean anything, it has to serve some purpose. Otherwise, it starts to sound like you're discussing what "really happened" and what didn't, which is obviously nonsense because it's all fictional. None of it is "true."

From Disney's point of view, of all the fictional works set in the SW universe, they have to chose some subset, with which their new creations must draw upon and be consistent with. When you frame "canon" against that purpose, then the set they've chosen appears pragmatic and perfectly sensible, especially in cases where works may overlap in time, or in the personal timeline of a specific character. That's not really going to work.

So, declaring something non-canon isn't saying it isn't "true" (whatever that means). Just that they aren't going to try to remain consistent with it. If the movies don't contradict it, there's nothing stopping you from continuing to regard that book as "true".

If you like a book, then why get upset that Disney have decreed it "non-canon"? The book still exists, it's still just as enjoyable, and just as fictional. It's just that Disney aren't going to be drawing that set of events into their own stories. Well, if you don't care for what Disney is doing anyway, then this should have zero effect on your enjoyment of the book.

As Akima said, what does it mean to decide for yourself what set of works constitutes your personal canon? Does it mean "these are the stories I enjoyed?" Why not just say that?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Neko_Ali on 11 Oct 2017, 17:50
The books, comics and cartoons that are canon now are the ones created since Disney took over, with the exception of Clone Wars. All of the old books and the stories contained within are part of the Legends line, and not canon. So no, it doesn't restrict them. They are just using a multi-media approach to tell more stories.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 11 Oct 2017, 18:22
Hmm...interesting.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 11 Oct 2017, 20:10
Ok, I’m noticing I’ve had this weirdly inflexible definition of canon for an uncomfortable long time, much longer than I’ve been part of tbe forum. I’m not really sure why. I’ll think about it.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Case on 13 Oct 2017, 05:47
Saw the new Star Wars 8 trailer.  I like the ambiguity of Rey's allegiance to the black and white sides of the force.  I also liked the internal conflict in Kylo.  I was not a fan of them bringing power levels to Star Wars.  Also Luke seems like a punk.  Still sorting out how I feel about the trailer.  Will totally see it in theaters.

Power levels?

And what's wrong with Punk-Luke?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: LeeC on 13 Oct 2017, 06:52
"I have seen this raw strength once before" brought flashbacks of DBZ and power levels. It was one thing to be strong in the force before, but now its seems (granted this is just what I got out of the trailer) that Rey and I am assuming Kylo's strength in the force in over 9000.

Luke seems like a punk who doesn't want to help the galaxy.  He appears (again this is just what the trailer seemed and may not be the final product) like he will train Rey, something will happen, and he will abandon her or quit.

_____________________________

What would you call this "grey jedi" faction?  I always hated the term "grey jedi" since it makes it seem like its a light grey, considering the jedi are the light side.  Would you just say "the force?"  I know the TV shows do not influence the movies, but in the recent season of Rebels they encounter a force being (The Bendu as described earlier) that is neither light or dark.  He talks to the former jedi Kannan.  Kannan asks him if he is light or dark, jedi or sith.  The Bendu scolds Kannan saying "The force isn't even like that.  There is no light side or dark side; there is just the force."  I am parsing of course, but being that this show has Disney fully behind it, I wouldn't be surprised if that is what they are leaning to with this new trilogy and merely sprinkling it around in their TV series.  TFA, and the new trilogy, is essentially the millenials taking over the star wars ethos.  They are looking at the philosophies of the older generations and coming to their own new conclusion.  Maybe even realizing how the older generation, who are so polarized towards one side or the other, has left the galaxy in ruins.  They are coming up with their own philosophies of something in the middle.  Nothing is wholly good or wholly evil.  You have to find the actual balance of things for the betterment of the galaxy.  Balance in the force comes from balance of ones self.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Neko_Ali on 13 Oct 2017, 09:36
Grey Jedi makes sense though, because the Sith originated from dissidents of the Jedi order. There have been other groups that use the Force, but they have largely died out. The Jedi remained the largest faction, devoted to the 'Light Side'. They embraced philosophy, helping others and restraint. Some of their order disagreed and explored manipulating the Force through emotion, passion. They were cast out and formed the Sith order becoming obsessed with only power and embracing the 'Dark Side', using techniques forbidden by the Jedi. But the important thing is that the Force itself makes no distinction, and may or may not be separately intelligent. The Light and Dark sides were invented by the Jedi, other factions of Force wielders just use the Force, or whatever name they called it.

The Grey Jedi are those who straddled the line between Jedi and Sith. They embraced part of both philosophies, using both reason and passion to explore the Force, but not falling prey to the fanatical blindness against the other side. Their numbers were never very high as they were not respected by either side. But both the Grey Jedi and Sith originally came from the Jedi order. Many of them literally as they started out training as Jedi but grew disillusioned and either left or were banished. Examples: Count Dooku used to be a Jedi master before he became Sith apprentice to Darth Sidious. Ahsoka Tano was a Jedi padawan who should and would have been made a Knight but was framed for terrorist attacks and banished from the order. Though she was proven innocent she refused to return and became Grey Jedi.

All of this is not new to Disney. These things existed as part of the referenced canon under Lucas and greatly expanded on in the EU/Legends line. It just wasn't dealt with directly in the first six movies, which were about the Jedi and Sith and the wars they were involved in.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Case on 15 Oct 2017, 12:24
"I have seen this raw strength once before" brought flashbacks of DBZ and power levels. It was one thing to be strong in the force before, but now its seems (granted this is just what I got out of the trailer) that Rey and I am assuming Kylo's strength in the force in over 9000.

Uhmmmh - While it's safe to assume that this forum is rather nerdy, maybe it would be worthwile not to assume that everybody is intimate familiar with DragonBallz, or its technical aspects? Some of us were exiled from that beautiful land called neoteny (just) before DBZ became a youth-culture phenomenon. (And what's the 9000 about? And how do you conclude that only Kylo Ren is ridiculously overpowered - why not Rey, too?)

Are you referring to Midi-Clorians? Or is it merely that the "Outsider with never-before seen Force-sensitivity going up against the evil Force-Goliath"-meme has become a bit tedious - certainly so after Luke was retconned as "The guy who defeated the most powerful Jedi of all times after two years of mostly autodidactic training in his meagre spare time".

I mean - what kind of monsters must Rey and Kylo Ren be if they scare someone who is himself the galactic gold-standard for 'ridiculously overpowered Jedi who handily defeated the last never-seen-before ridiculously overpowered Jedi while still green behind the ears'.

Tangential:
I always felt this was the central problem of the former Expanded Universe's novels about Luke, especially after Episodes I-III became canon, and the guy he defeated was elevated to "mythical levels of powerful" -> TDP. He's too damn powerful to easily write credible challenges for him, without invoking yet another attack from a belligerent species from beyond the known Galaxy.

I love Timothy Zahn's novels, but even he seemed to be struggling at times with the question of what a 40-, 50- or 60-year old Luke cannot do, when the 20-year old Luke already handily bested one of the most powerful and most-experienced Force-users ever, after two years of intermittent training, mostly by a Force-ghost. "Decisive Battle for the future of the Galactic Civilization was joined at 10:30 local time. Grandmaster Skywalker set course homewards at 10:41 ..." makes for a pretty boring read. Zahn solved this with the idea that while SeniorLuke was certainly capable of crippling battleships with his mind alone, using his full force-strength came with a price-tag: The more actively a powerful Force-user wields the Force, the more desensitized they become to its subtle guidances (force-assisted piloting, lightsaber combat, blaster-deflection are all passive 'talents'), so Luke put himself on a "Force-diet".

Luke seems like a punk who doesn't want to help the galaxy.  He appears (again this is just what the trailer seemed and may not be the final product) like he will train Rey, something will happen, and he will abandon her or quit.

Ah, ok. I sometimes forget that the word punk existed before punk-rock or punk-culture. Over here, it's mostly associated with punk-attitude and culture (wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_subculture): "Punk-related ideologies are mostly concerned with individual freedom and anti-establishment views. Common punk viewpoints include anti-authoritarianism, a DIY ethic, non-conformity, direct action and not selling out."

Come to think of it: Patricide is certainly one of the purest expressions of anti-authoritarian attitude, even if you eventually settle for merely chopping Dad's hand off.

So yes, Luke is a punk in all meanings of the word. What else is new?  :wink:

Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Neko_Ali on 16 Dec 2017, 13:31
So, I came back from The Last Jedi, and it's good, quite good. It is not a beat for beat retelling of Empire the way Force Awakens was, but there were quite a few call outs. Like in ESB, the First Order is on the rise and the Resistance is on the run. That's not particularly a spoiler, since that's where we left off the last movie. The heroes have to split up and go on their own journeys but are mostly brought together for the finale.  There were a number of scenes that were directly call outs of the original trilogy as well,  but they make sense in the context of the film, and it does tell it's own story. In all, it's a worthy addition to the franchise.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: LeeC on 17 Dec 2017, 15:22
There were a lot of twists and misdirection in the film which made it enjoyable and worried whether the main cast would get out alive.  It was a good and complex movie, but not great.  I saw some take to twitter and call it "god awful" and I highly disagree.  It may not be what we wanted to happen in the saga, but it wasn't anything we expected either.  There were some clear nods to Ep 5 and 6 but it was new and different, going in a different direction than any of the past movies.  I also just saw it and may need a day or two (or another viewing or two) to fully grasp everything.

(click to show/hide)

I feel like I need to watch it another time or so to fully grasp it but if I were to rate the Star Wars movies from greatest to worst:

1. The Empire Strikes Back
2. A New Hope
3. Return of the Jedi (honestly 4 and 6 are neck and neck and can swap places depending on my mood)
4. Rouge One
5. The Last Jedi (pending further review)
6. The Force Awakens
7. Revenge of the Sith
8. Phantom Menace
9. Attack of the Clones (honestly 1 and 2 could also swap depending on my mood)
10. The Star Wars Christmas Special
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: TheEvilDog on 17 Dec 2017, 17:51
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Case on 17 Dec 2017, 19:29
4. Rouge One

That was the one about Obi-Wan's sabbatical, right?

(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/11/02/arts/02moulin1/02moulin1-master768.jpg)

:laugh:

Even the owners of properties less tangled than comics, like Star Trek, for example, pay no real attention to the continuity of their universes, where it might get in the way of telling a good story, or just lazy writing (Yes, Star Trek: Enterprise, I am looking at you).

Am I the only one who really liked Enterprise?  :oops:
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Case on 17 Dec 2017, 19:50
[tweet]813979525243539456[/tweet]

 :cry:
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: TheEvilDog on 17 Dec 2017, 20:21

Even the owners of properties less tangled than comics, like Star Trek, for example, pay no real attention to the continuity of their universes, where it might get in the way of telling a good story, or just lazy writing (Yes, Star Trek: Enterprise, I am looking at you).

Am I the only one who really liked Enterprise?  :oops:

Yes.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: LeeC on 18 Dec 2017, 08:54
Chuck Wendig, Author of the Star Wars: Aftermath series has a really interesting review:

http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2017/12/18/the-last-jedi-a-mirror-slowly-cracking/ (http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2017/12/18/the-last-jedi-a-mirror-slowly-cracking/)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Marco on 18 Dec 2017, 10:09

Even the owners of properties less tangled than comics, like Star Trek, for example, pay no real attention to the continuity of their universes, where it might get in the way of telling a good story, or just lazy writing (Yes, Star Trek: Enterprise, I am looking at you).

Am I the only one who really liked Enterprise?  :oops:

Yes.

No.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 18 Dec 2017, 16:34
Chuck Wendig, Author of the Star Wars: Aftermath series has a really interesting review:

http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2017/12/18/the-last-jedi-a-mirror-slowly-cracking/ (http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2017/12/18/the-last-jedi-a-mirror-slowly-cracking/)

That review made me very happy.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Blue Kitty on 21 Dec 2017, 19:22
Got back and I loved it. I wouldn't say it was better than Empire, but it was a good Star Wars movie. It's also an unconventional Star Wars movie and I enjoyed that too. I'm excited to see what Rian Johnson will bring to the new trilogy

I love the revelation that Porgs were just puffins, cause they were filming on a world heritage site, and they just edited them in the movie instead of getting rid of them
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: A Duck on 25 Dec 2017, 11:50
I really enjoyed this movie. Hell, it's certainly a close second to my favorite SW movie, which is Force Awakens. As you can guess, I really enjoy what Disney is doing with the property.

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Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Thrillho on 26 Dec 2017, 15:29
I'm reading through everyone's thoughts, then writing a review of the movie on my blog (with both spoilery and non spoilery sections).

In the meantime, here's how I rank the Star Wars movies.

I never saw Rogue One. I'm not really a prequel fan generally. I am aware that this series has fuckloads of prequels but I was in my tweens and teens when I saw them.

From best to worst:
1. Empire
2. New Hope
3. Last Jedi
4. Force Awakens
5. Revenge of the Sith
6. Return of the Jedi
7. Phantom Menace
8. Clones

COME AT ME WORLD

Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 26 Dec 2017, 17:44
My only comment is that I really loved Rogue One. It succeeds in wringing a lot of excitement from a plot where you already know the most significant outcome - unlike the George Lucas prequels. It dovetails into A New Hope beautifully, and even succeeds in enriching that film. It is worth your time.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: LeeC on 26 Dec 2017, 17:57
I'm with Tova, its worth your time.  2/3 of the stuff in the trailer for that movie wasn't even in the movie.  Was shot just for trailer.  It's not a perfect movie, but its a good Star Wars movie.  It has some of the best war moments of any Star Wars movie.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Thrillho on 26 Dec 2017, 18:06
I'm with Tova, its worth your time.  2/3 of the stuff in the trailer for that movie wasn't even in the movie.  Was shot just for trailer.  It's not a perfect movie, but its a good Star Wars movie.  It has some of the best war moments of any Star Wars movie.

Well, this is why I don't watch trailers for movies any more really, especially if I already planned on watching it.
Episode VIII:
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Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Pilchard123 on 27 Dec 2017, 12:08
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Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: LeeC on 27 Dec 2017, 12:16
Nah, no lightsaber needed.  :-D

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Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Pilchard123 on 27 Dec 2017, 12:21
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Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: LeeC on 27 Dec 2017, 14:59
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Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Thrillho on 07 Jan 2018, 13:58
So after some life turmoil I finally reviewed this on my blog (https://madcap156.wordpress.com/2018/01/07/film-review-star-wars-episode-viii-the-last-jedi/) having started writing it on the 27th for fuck's sake.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 07 Jan 2018, 15:25
Good, thoughtful piece.

I think the question of who the movie is for is an interesting one. I think that it is attempting to appeal to a broad audience, and while that may seem to be a mistake, I feel that it must. It is almost inherent in the core message of the film, to embrace a new generation of fans.

For me personally, as someone who grew up with Star Wars, but is not necessarily what you might call a hard core fan, I enjoyed it greatly, in spite of its flaws that prevent it from being a truly great film. Although the structure of the film could have been better, I feel very happy primarily with the development of the characters. Yes, even - especially - with Luke. Many were unhappy, but I felt that Luke's story was gripping and appropriate.

I wish we could have a survey of different types of Star Wars fans and find out how many truly hated it/liked it/loved it. I wonder if the haters are noisier than they are numerous.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Neko_Ali on 07 Jan 2018, 16:00
I am one of those life long Star Wars fan. Watching A New Hope in the theaters as a child is definitely one of the formative and transformational events of my youth. Following the setting from movie to book to game to TV in most of it's incarnation as well as the associate toys and other paraphernalia I think I can well establish my bona fides as a 'real Star Wars' fan. I loved The Last Jedi. And I love the direction that Disney is taking the franchise. There are flaws, both technical and story wise in the movie of course. But they didn't hurt the movie enough to harm my enjoyment of it.

Most of the complaints about the movie that I've seen shake out into two camps, generally. That the movie is too 'SJW'. Because god forbid a white male not be the lead of every movie... And that it thumbs it's nose at the expectations of the fans. To that I say... Good! The old cast isn't what everyone expected. People were expecting things to go along the lines the books went with.. After the death of the Emperor the Empire fell apart, new Republic, Han and Leia are happy and had a bunch of kids. Luke runs a Jedi school and got married... The good guys won at the end of RTJ, so everything is right.

From the start, that never really jivved with me. The Empire had an entire military structure built up. Most people never even saw the Emperor... His death would just mean someone else would step in. The Rebels won a major victory that day over Endor sure. But saying that caused the Empire to be overthrown is absurd.  And the movies show it... It wasn't a happy ending. Just a change. The Empire became the First Order. Snoke rose to take the space vacated by Palpatine. Han and Leia had chemistry, but not compatibility, of course they split up, even if they love each other. And Luke... the kid with barely any training as a Jedi running a school? It's no surprise it ended in disaster, and that he would blame himself and go off to sulk.

And of course that's not taking into consideration people having different view points. Some thought the Force Awakens was too close to the standard formula. Others thought Last Jedi was too far away. To much old, not enough old, there was no way to please all the fans. Especially ones who expected things to go just like they wanted them too. Me? I'm along for the ride, seeing where they take us. I'm not the driver, I'm a passenger on this crazy starship, and I like the scenery they've shown us so far.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: JoeCovenant on 08 Jan 2018, 03:48

Just seen the movie.
Did I hate it? Nah.
Did I LOVE it? Nah.

Am I astounded at the (to my mind) ludicrous arguments that the backlash is down to misogyny? You bet yer bum!
MY problem with the movie is simple.

Bad directorial decisions... (now read on.. IF YOU DARE!) :)
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Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Pilchard123 on 08 Jan 2018, 10:41
I think my biggest problem with the opening bombing run and Poe's demotion was the number of bombers sent. If just one craft's bombs was sufficient (and it evidently was), why sent the entire fleet? I get needing to send multiple so they could cover each other (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_box) but given that they did have a fighter screen as well, why risk all of the bombers when just a handful would have sufficed?

I didn't mind the way the bombs moved (it's a film about space wizards with laser swords; scientific accuracy isn't the point here), or the unexpected "please hold" jokes (it's Disney, what are you going to do?). But the loss of the whole fleet is a fairly major plot point that didn't really need to happen.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 08 Jan 2018, 19:11
Am I astounded at the (to my mind) ludicrous arguments that the backlash is down to misogyny? You bet yer bum!

I've seen a number of discussions about the backlash, but I've managed to miss this particular argument somehow.

You spend a lot of time speaking against the flaws for a film you allegedly don't hate?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: JoeCovenant on 09 Jan 2018, 03:06
Am I astounded at the (to my mind) ludicrous arguments that the backlash is down to misogyny? You bet yer bum!

I've seen a number of discussions about the backlash, but I've managed to miss this particular argument somehow.

You spend a lot of time speaking against the flaws for a film you allegedly don't hate?

Yep...
If I had *hated* it I would have gone on for far longer nit-picking the thing to shreds and having nary a good word for it.
My ire is more at "What the hell are they doing to star wars!!!" I didn't hate the film... but I severely disliked the shift in ... *feel* of some portions (and characters) of it... and the lazy film making in places. (It's too easy to point to enormous flaws, is my main problem.)

Oh... that article... (I envy you - I've been seeing it EVERYWHERE!)
https://bittergertrude.com/2018/01/04/why-so-many-men-hate-the-last-jedi-but-cant-agree-on-why/ (https://bittergertrude.com/2018/01/04/why-so-many-men-hate-the-last-jedi-but-cant-agree-on-why/)

And now.. SO HAVE YOU !!!

MUUUAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Sorry, it's been a hard week!) :-)

ETA:
When I went to find the above article, this one popped up...  https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/19/the-last-jedi-why-star-wars-fans-hate-one-of-the-best-star-wars-movies/#2bb74c895658 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/19/the-last-jedi-why-star-wars-fans-hate-one-of-the-best-star-wars-movies/#2bb74c895658)

Which AGAIN is running out the same old "reasons" that they "think" people are disliking the film for... and even *thisd* one falls onto the "the white older male audience" disliking it "because women!"

And I think that kind of garbage is only fuelling my ire! :)
I'll say it once more though...
BAD FILM-MAKING, bad logic and bad characterisation are my reasons.
I don't give a damn who is doing what or if "The men all fail"... I really don't... I just want to see a well crafted, logical movie without plot-holes you could drive a "fleet destroyer" through and scripted in a way that is as realistic as Sci Fi can be.

I am also annoyed at the "Ah but it isn't being made for *you* it's being made for the "new generation" of Star Wars fans...
Aye, right... because the new generation are different in what way, exactly, when it comes to expecting a well told tale?
Again, the pundits are commentating more on what they *think* people are annoyed about. (THEY'RE KILLING OFF OUR FRIENDS!)
Maybe some people are miffed at that... I kinda expected it!


Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Thrillho on 09 Jan 2018, 03:30
So, just to clarify: because you don't like the film due to subjective criticisms of the way it is written and shot, that means nobody at all is moaning about it being an SJW Star Wars movie?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: JoeCovenant on 09 Jan 2018, 03:53
So, just to clarify: because you don't like the film due to subjective criticisms of the way it is written and shot, that means nobody at all is moaning about it being an SJW Star Wars movie?

No, it means *I* am not.
It never even entered my HEAD that it might end up being tagged with the SJW label.

But I think that might just be the way I think...
I don't see there being any problem female leads, or females in positions of power...

(I dunno if that comes from being Scottish and the female being a strong character anyway? EG, until Kesia's implosion all three major political parties in Scotland were helmed by women - two of them Lesbian.)

...but when Poe was being hauled over the coals for what he did, I was shouting (inwardly) "HELL yeah!" because he was WRONG.
And the whole mutiny thing??? Leia should have just shot him. (Had it not been Disney Wars she might well have. If he had been on the Razor he'd be floating in space by now! :) )
But again, this plays into the bad characterisation element... Playing characters against type, to create drama, to then be able to *solve* this drama.

Looking at it with SJW in mind... you know what, if I actually take a moment to think about it, maybe it *was* created to deliberately pit the women-folk agin the men-folk.

But I don't care.
I just want good stories well told. And this failed to vault that hurdle.
It even failed to put forward a good new strong female character, showing her to be indecisive after such a STRONG intro, and then watching melancholically as the ships float away... and only to slam dunk herself when it's nearly too bloody late. (Better idea? "One of us has to stay behind to pilot the ship" "What? No, leave a droid!" "Trust me, the ship has to be piloted away from this fleet"... hugs hugs hugs. one shot of watching the fleet head toward s the planet. One shot FROM the fleet, seeing the ship turn around. "What's she doing?" "Oh no...!"
WHAM !!!! (YMMV, but I think that would have made for a far better *end* to her arc. Strong woman, tough decision made prior to being forced into it.)

A friend of mine said she didn't like the fact that Fin is being hailed as a hero for attempting to escape the ship and then being dragged into a "heroic" scenario.
I didn't even think he *was* trying to escape! I thought he was trying to head over to the big shop to sabotage it himself! But, again, we're looking at cookie-cutter characters here, deliberately side-lining those better known (Chewbacca, anyone?) pushed aside to shift focus. (I did have problem with TFA when Rey took control of the Falcon... not because she's female, but because Chewie's been flying it far longer than she has! You can be as strong in the force as you like, but I don't; see why that give inherent ability to fly starships with no previous knowledge of them other than as salvage)

But I digress...  :)
Maybe I should just pour all of this into a blog post and put up a link so you guys aren't forced to suffer this stream of semi--consciousness and you can all ignore the link!  :)
 :-D
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Thrillho on 09 Jan 2018, 04:20
Am I astounded at the (to my mind) ludicrous arguments that the backlash is down to misogyny? You bet yer bum!
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: JoeCovenant on 09 Jan 2018, 04:23
Am I astounded at the (to my mind) ludicrous arguments that the backlash is down to misogyny? You bet yer bum!

???
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Thrillho on 09 Jan 2018, 04:53
Isn't that sentence literally you saying that it's ludicrous to suggest that the backlash against the film is misogyny related?

Or by 'backlash' are you referring to just your own opinion of the movie?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: JoeCovenant on 09 Jan 2018, 06:08
Isn't that sentence literally you saying that it's ludicrous to suggest that the backlash against the film is misogyny related?

Or by 'backlash' are you referring to just your own opinion of the movie?

I'm saying "to my mind" to suggest the backlash is based on misogyny is ludicrous.
Because I'm backlashing a bit and in no part does "the cast" even come into it.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Thrillho on 09 Jan 2018, 06:53
That still sounds to me like my point stands - that you are saying that because your own objections are not misogynistic, then nobody's are.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Neko_Ali on 09 Jan 2018, 06:57
Some people do have legitimate issues with the movie over writing, some complain that it's not what they were expecting and yes some do complain over sexist or racist issues. There is never just one opinion on everything.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: JoeCovenant on 09 Jan 2018, 08:49
That still sounds to me like my point stands - that you are saying that because your own objections are not misogynistic, then nobody's are.

Then I'm can't be making myself very clear. (Sorry.)

I have no doubt that a small (VERRRRYYYY small) number of people may view it that way.

But I *do* I doubt VERY much that it's the big deal this article seems to make out that it is because I have seen NO-ONE making any of the points that article makes...

And I've actually looked.

But no, none of the above is what I am trying to say.
Just to my mind that those who (apparently) ARE saying it's misogynistic are idiots.
But those saying "Why Men hate this..." are also idiots. (Maybe it just comes down to "NOT ALL MEN!" ?? But if it is, it's the worst example I've ever seen of it.)


Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 09 Jan 2018, 14:04
But I *do* I doubt VERY much that it's the big deal this article seems to make out that it is because I have seen NO-ONE making any of the points that article makes...

And I've actually looked.

Yeah, well. I thought no-one was making the claims you're complaining about. And yet you're making a very big deal out of that. So, I'd be careful in drawing conclusions. Yes, I've been reading reactions around the place (admittedly not comprehensively). Maybe the proximity of this film's release with the Tilly story has made me utterly fascinated with the kind of angry reaction we've seen towards both.

So, obviously you disliked the film. Actually, you spend so much denying you hate it, I wonder if you protest too much. It's fine if you hated it, it's fine if you disliked it. It's a pity that you felt unable to say so explicitly. My impression is that you disliked the film due to its numerous plot holes and inconsistencies. Is this very roughly correct?

This is one article about the backlash that I have retained. I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/12/18/16791844/star-wars-last-jedi-backlash-controversy

You will note that one of several reasons for the backlash noted (the very first, as they are ordered from least to most significant reasons) is that the film is "too progressive." That specific backlash is out there. Not here, but I've seen it around. You can't discuss the backlash without at least noting it. But it's also obvious that different people disliked the film for different reasons.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 09 Jan 2018, 18:26
While I'm at it, I'll put this one up for reactions as well. A post in another thread brought this article to mind.

The ‘Last Jedi’ backlash provides a useful primer in how not to watch a movie (https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/the-last-jedi-backlash-provides-a-useful-primer-in-how-not-to-watch-a-movie/2018/01/04/6fa9a72c-f142-11e7-b3bf-ab90a706e175_story.html?utm_term=.3038af7d2f1c)

Try not to get too upset at the provocative title.  :wink:
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: TheEvilDog on 09 Jan 2018, 18:31
I like the glow sticks that go "Fwoom!".

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Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 09 Jan 2018, 18:53
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Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: JoeCovenant on 10 Jan 2018, 02:23
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Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: JoeCovenant on 10 Jan 2018, 02:28
But I *do* I doubt VERY much that it's the big deal this article seems to make out that it is because I have seen NO-ONE making any of the points that article makes...

And I've actually looked.

Yeah, well. I thought no-one was making the claims you're complaining about. And yet you're making a very big deal out of that. So, I'd be careful in drawing conclusions.

So, obviously you disliked the film. Actually, you spend so much denying you hate it, I wonder if you protest too much. It's fine if you hated it, it's fine if you disliked it. It's a pity that you felt unable to say so explicitly. My impression is that you disliked the film due to its numerous plot holes and inconsistencies. Is this very roughly correct?


That is not very roughly correct, that is almost my entire beef! :)
But there were also bits I liked! (Honestly, if I had hated it, I would have had no qualms in saying so.)

I think all it is , is, that I am disappointed in it. Which can often be worse than hatred.
And I'm kicking against the "official" 'this film is for the new generation', because all I see is dumbing down and pandering, and MY newer generation viewers are complaining about the same things that I did.

(Also... this just hit me... I think a part of my annoyance is the wiping out of Luke's "history" of becoming this amazing and worthy Jedi, due to "New Canon". But that is secondary to the craft being .. just... bad.)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 10 Jan 2018, 02:55
Long response coming, but I've noticed that the precise phrase "bad story telling" is probably the one thing in common between the vast majority of complaints.

Influencing each other?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: JoeCovenant on 10 Jan 2018, 03:57
Long response coming, but I've noticed that the precise phrase "bad story telling" is probably the one thing in common between the vast majority of complaints.

Influencing each other?

Quite possibly...
Re: the articles above... The second I have already read, but under a different title and site (!)
The first, (surprise, surprise!) opens with exactly what I have not seen anywhere... "People are complaining because the white male heroes are failing and the women are not!!" Seriously, I have not seen that anywhere else other than in these articles decrying it! Other than that, the article seems to be saying.. all these things have been changed and people are hating it. (It does touch on the humour, and does make the distinction that the humour of *older* star wars was different and not so brutally LOOK! LOOK! THIS IS FUNNY! But then tries to say "So what!?" Well.. that's kinda ther p[oint... Star wars isn't a comedy, and this movie opens with it trying to be one... It's almost as if they are trying to emulate the Marvel movies and their humour... except their has ALWAYS been out-and-out humour in Marvel. Star Wars had "amusing asides", and of course R2 and Threepio... who were (again) all but ignored in this one.

One of the articles ends by saying the filmmaker "Made star wars his own... and what's the problem with that?"
Well.. *I* would say when that filmmakers vision is so far removed from (to all intents and purposes ) around 50% of the franchises 'fans' (and probably of the higher age brackets who made it the success it was) *I* would say that's half the problem right there.

Tova, I'm looking forward to your post...
I just wish I had time to compose these responses more fully... (I only really access this site when I am at work ! :) :) :)  )

Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 18 Jan 2018, 01:36
Sorry that I haven't got to this! In between a potentially life-changing a career switch and adopting a kitten, along with various minor home renovations, I've barely had time to sneeze. Better later than never! Regardless, here are some of my thoughts.

Spoilers within.

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Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: JoeCovenant on 18 Jan 2018, 02:17
Sorry that I haven't got to this! In between a potentially life-changing a career switch and adopting a kitten, along with various minor home renovations, I've barely had time to sneeze. Better later than never! Regardless, here are some of my thoughts.

Spoilers within.

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Nice piece.
I'm honestly glad you got that out of the movie.
I just don't agree with the premise you put forward. :)

However, as I've said often, my major problems with this film were in the craft. Bad film decisions and plotholes you could fly a star destroyer through.
(As well as abandoning/ignoring/wilfully discarding almost everything set-up in EpVII)

A "study in failure" doesn't make a compelling movie, to me...
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: BenRG on 18 Jan 2018, 08:45
I've just seen the film for the first time and, after thinking about it, my overwhelming response was 'Ho-hum'. It wasn't good and it wasn't bad but it was mediocre, sometimes confused and I really didn't like the writing. What I liked the least was the constant juggling of idiot balls leading to bizarre plot devices whose only apparent purpose was to justify future plot devices or SFX set-pieces.

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There were a few moments that I liked:

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These things aside, my overwhelming sense was, as I have already said, was a film that was mediocre. Perhaps it is because I am somewhat involved in the Star Wars online community and that a lot of the philosophical issues regarding the weaknesses of and possible/probably corruption of the old Jedi Order have already been done to death on discussion forums, particularly around the time of The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones led me to be unimpressed by the philosophical musings. Add in unimpressive battle scenes (with one notable exception), too much fourth wall-straining comedic one-liners and far too much 'this must not work or we won't have any reason for the next plot point' narrative convenience, I was generally dismissive of the script.

I suppose what sticks in my craw more than anything else is the ongoing policy to have the OT lead characters go out with a whimper: defeated and failures in their own minds. I find it a somewhat dispiriting act of cynical iconoclasm (clearly with the intent of making the newer characters seem more genuinely heroic) and it turns me off of the sequel films.

BenRG's Rating: 5/10
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 18 Jan 2018, 14:00
Well, I agree with one thing. This won't win me any friends, but I do think there's an element of groupthink among hardcore fans.

Edit: A New Old Skywalker (https://medium.com/@hitRECordJoe/a-new-old-skywalker-253efda3809c)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: JoeCovenant on 19 Jan 2018, 02:54
Well, I agree with one thing. This won't win me any friends, but I do think there's an element of groupthink among hardcore fans.

Edit: A New Old Skywalker (https://medium.com/@hitRECordJoe/a-new-old-skywalker-253efda3809c)

"laughable animal husbandry and death-defying spearfishing"

I am so glad he put this in... because it's (as I've said) part of my main problem with the movie.

People can wax lyrical as much as they like about whether "The Changing of the Guard" was a brave or stupid move, but Levitt seems to change his mind half way through his own article.

BUT... he lets the whole thing down with this little holier-than-thou sentence...
"I think there’s a certain enjoyment to be had from taking a subversive stance against the biggest “Big Hollywood” movie of the year. And I know I couldn’t kill that buzz even if I wanted to. "

I'm afraid MY answer to that would be "Screw" quickly followed by "YOU!"
Because I WANTED to LOVE this movie.
And (as I think my very first comment on it said) all it left me with was a feeling of disappointment.
I take NO enjoyment in my criticisms of it... because I don't want to be making them!

I can't (and wouldn't think to) talk for everyone... but I never knew there WAS a backlash until after I had seen the movie and formed my own opinions because I stayed FAAARRRR away from anything to do with the movie until I had seen it.

But again, none of these articles I am seeing lauding the film happen to touch upon the awful plot holes or the bad humour too much, apart from side-lining those points before rambling on about how it's really *brave* to change everything everyone knows about Star Wars!

And that opinion is just as valid as those of us who think it was Stupid to do so...

I can't agree with your "groupthink" comment though, Tova. We're not all sitting in a room planning how to demolish this.
It's just as easy to point that accusation at those looking to make a silk purse out of this particular sow's ear.

I haven't taken the time to sit down and compose some massive about the damage the alterations to characters and bad plot could be...

(Highlights apart from the things mentioned above would probably be the insidious Millennial Entitlement shown in the movie. Rey gets all she wants... "Because she's a strong-free-single woman y'awl! She doesn't need to WORK to be the hardest bad-ass saber wielder in the 'verse. She just TAKES it, grlfrnd!"
Not the best message to be putting out there...)

And I probably never will... :)
All I can do is hope that IX does what VIII did to VII :)


ETA:
This dude here, from the comments on the LEvitt article)  kinda encapsulates most (but not all) of my problems with the film...
https://medium.com/@robbie.johnson/the-idea-of-the-risks-wasnt-bad-the-execution-was-11f3e429571e (https://medium.com/@robbie.johnson/the-idea-of-the-risks-wasnt-bad-the-execution-was-11f3e429571e)

ETAA:
I've just read all of the comments on the article.
I don't need to write anything now, a LOT of these guys get it (from my POV).
(And - look - NONE of it being "Why are these women/not-white-people getting all the glory!!??")

It's the craft... all to do with the (lack of) craft.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 19 Jan 2018, 03:10
I can't agree with your "groupthink" comment though, We're not all sitting in a room planning how to demolish this.
It's just as easy to point that accusation at those looking to make a silk purse out of this particular sow's ear.

Ha ha.
Of course I don't think anyone is doing that.
And yes, absolutely (your charactarisation of people who like the film notwithstanding).
In that order. :)

Edit: The article you linked. Some comments I agree with. Some I disagree. And some I find weird and nitpicky, like they are just grappling onto any flaw they can think of.

Just to make myself clear, with my groupthink remark, I'm not trying to say that people who hated the film are wrong and those who liked it are right. I'm just not convinced that the majority of people who disliked (or even liked) the film really know exactly why, let alone have the capability to explain it well. So they look to other reviews to try and explain it. So many SW geeks convinced they are great film critics. 
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: JoeCovenant on 19 Jan 2018, 03:25
I can't agree with your "groupthink" comment though, We're not all sitting in a room planning how to demolish this.
It's just as easy to point that accusation at those looking to make a silk purse out of this particular sow's ear.

Ha ha.
Of course I don't think anyone is doing that.
And yes, absolutely (your charactarisation of people who like the film notwithstanding).
In that order. :)

Edit: The article you linked. Some comments I agree with. Some I disagree. And some I find weird and nitpicky, like they are just grappling onto any flaw they can think of.

Just to make myself clear, with my groupthink remark, I'm not trying to say that people who hated the film are wrong and those who liked it are right. I'm just not convinced that the majority of people who disliked (or even liked) the film really know exactly why, let alone have the capability to explain it well. So they look to other reviews to try and explain it. So many SW geeks convinced they are great film critics.

I can't agree with that, Tova.
I dunno if you have read the rest of the comments under that article - But I think those explaining why they dislike it are doing so VERY well.

When I first heard that Disney had taken this over I worried a bit.
Then I saw TFA and I thought.. okay, not bed.. let's see what happens.
And then I saw Rogue One and I thought WOW !!! Yes!!!
And I was So looking forward to TLJ...
Now, I'm worried about the last episode in the 'Saga'.
And fear that Star Wars will become another "straight to DVD" event... a sad end.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: LeeC on 19 Jan 2018, 12:28
Here is something from Rian Johnson's twitter that I thought was funny. I remember getting this book back in like 2011 or was it 2012 before Disney got Star Wars.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 19 Jan 2018, 12:54
I've read more of those comments than I care to admit.

For someone who found the film 'average', you're saying all the things being said by people who detested the film.

Anyway, we're moved from explanation into hyperbole, so I think we're done here.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: JoeCovenant on 22 Jan 2018, 02:35
I've read more of those comments than I care to admit.

For someone who found the film 'average', you're saying all the things being said by people who detested the film.

Anyway, we're moved from explanation into hyperbole, so I think we're done here.

Meh, what can I say?
Some people clearly have stronger reactions! :)
But remember, some people liked Jar-Jar... :)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 22 Jan 2018, 10:40
Speaking of the prequels:

http://www.vulture.com/2017/01/mark-hamill-star-wars-prequels-the-last-jedi.html

I wouldn't wish this kind of response on any creator. I really wouldn't.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Method of Madness on 25 Jan 2018, 04:32
But remember, some people liked Jar-Jar... :)
To be fair, he is a sith lord. Maybe.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: JoeCovenant on 26 Jan 2018, 02:16
But remember, some people liked Jar-Jar... :)
To be fair, he is a sith lord. Maybe.

I'll tell ya... I love that theory.
(The misdirected shots of the robots being (to me) the largest nugget suggesting it might be true.
Reason being... those robots were animated to do EXACTLY what they did... this wasn't an *extra* looking the wrong way by mistake, this was a deliberate action.)

And it would have been STUNNING to have seen it play out.

I reckon the whole "people hate him too much to follow this through any longer" is only a weak excuse for the truth.
That being: that it was thought the force of 300 million jaws DROPPING on opening night might have shifted the axis of the earth,
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: LeeC on 12 Feb 2018, 18:46
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: JoeCovenant on 13 Feb 2018, 02:43

Yup!

:)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: BenRG on 13 Feb 2018, 02:59

That is what you get if you had attempted to insert common sense (something that I pointed out needed to be surgically extracted at every step in the actual shooting script of Episode VIII in order to actually make the next plot point necessary). I also agree that Luke and Rey smashing the First Order ground strike unaided would have been awesome... and a lot better than what we got. I also think that Rey should have switched from 'pull' to 'push' when fighting Kylo Ren for the lightsaber and knocking him out by crashing the hilt into his face.

Isn't it worrying that a parody made suggestions that would have made the film 10x more palatable and plausible?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: JoeCovenant on 13 Feb 2018, 03:06

That is what you get if you had attempted to insert common sense (something that I pointed out needed to be surgically extracted at every step in the actual shooting script of Episode VIII in order to actually make the next plot point necessary). I also agree that Luke and Rey smashing the First Order ground strike unaided would have been awesome... and a lot better than what we got. I also think that Rey should have switched from 'pull' to 'push' when fighting Kylo Ren for the lightsaber and knocking him out by crashing the hilt into his face.

Isn't it worrying that a parody made suggestions that would have made the film 10x more palatable and plausible?

Spot on, Ben...
Though, I don't, view this as a parody (other than the Akbar bits)...
I view this more as a... "Um, Mr. Disney... You *do* see that all these things were *wrong* ...surely?"

Dumbing down. Pandering.

If this film had been written as a novel it would have been panned for the plot holes.
(which the animation above only addresses a few of)

Why do films (in general!) seem to be getting away with this kinda nonsense more and more?
(Maybe it's not any more prevalent than before, but it does seem to be.)


Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 13 Feb 2018, 20:02
Guys,

Have you subscribed to his channel? All of his videos are this way. Including every other Star Wars parody. And others. It's what he does.

I found it hilarious btw.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: JoeCovenant on 14 Feb 2018, 02:46
Guys,

Have you subscribed to his channel? All of his videos are this way. Including every other Star Wars parody. And others. It's what he does.

I found it hilarious btw.

I've not subscribed, but I've seen a few...
I think the difference with this and some of his other works is that this one (other than the Akbar scenes) were more a comic rendition of some of the things previously discussed.

I'm actually more impressed with the animation work! :)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: Tova on 14 Feb 2018, 02:56
Yes, that is true. This film being a bit more divisive, it would make sense for him to play into that.

His animation work is pretty good.  8-)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII
Post by: LeeC on 14 Feb 2018, 07:46
They even have their own "spin off" type series that involve Batman and Superman's constant coffee shop appearence at the end of every super hero HISHE and they interview the hero(s) fromt he film.  Now they interact with the villain pub too.  :-D