Now there's a thought. Why is she still working at the library? The chassis loan may have been paid off by now. Does she feel an obligation to serve humanity (non-ironically)? Does she just like having money or having co-workers?
Not sure if Momo's response should be read as:
A.) Ok, that's nice. Now I have to get back to work.
B.) Seriously? You're disrupting my workday for THIS?
C.) Um, good for you. But, I feel like you're lording it over me and that makes me uncomfortable.
D.) Oh god I want to reenact some of that Victorian porn with him so bad, I gotta run, BYE.
When he meets May I expect her to yank his pants down and check if he's anatomically correct.... :evil: :-D
The fading smile between panels five and six made me really sad.
The fading smile between panels five and six made me really sad.
Now there's a thought. Why is she still working at the library? The chassis loan may have been paid off by now. Does she feel an obligation to serve humanity (non-ironically)? Does she just like having money or having co-workers?
I think people might be reading more into this than just an AI being as awkward as any human interacting with someone and doesn't know what cues to follow or end a conversation smoothly.
"After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
Note to Winslow: be careful of what you wish for...
At least he's having fun
New comic.
May's reaction is a little... unwarranted. Winslow is being grateful and excited by a body. Yesterday he was more analogous to a pet, and now he's been promoted to 'actual human being'.
Knowing May, she's going to feel pretty garbage about this and apologize later, but it doesn't help Winslow now.
May's reaction is a little... unwarranted. Winslow is being grateful and excited by a body. Yesterday he was more analogous to a pet, and now he's been promoted to 'actual human being'.
Knowing May, she's going to feel pretty garbage about this and apologize later, but it doesn't help Winslow now.
Given the way Jeph tends tends to handle development, I'd like to say that he's probably going to more likely put Winslow through a hard lesson about the fact that he's been so sheltered to the point where he hasn't ever considered other people's problems. Ideally, he'll learn and grow from this. I certainly want to see him do that. There's always been at least one character that needs serious growth, and right now there isn't...really one. I'd classify Faye and Bubbles as more of a romantic drama situation versus a personal growth. Clinton as plateud, and until he can flag Brun down from the atmosphere, those two aren't really gonna go anywhere any time soon.May's reaction is a little... unwarranted. Winslow is being grateful and excited by a body. Yesterday he was more analogous to a pet, and now he's been promoted to 'actual human being'.
Knowing May, she's going to feel pretty garbage about this and apologize later, but it doesn't help Winslow now.
Is it unwarranted though?
Consider this.
- May is still a parolee from Robot Jail.
- May is stuck in a government chassis that is literally falling apart.
- Due to being a parolee and stuck in a dead end job, she's unable to buy a new chassis.
- Winslow has never wanted for anything, at least from May's perspective. He's essentially been a kept AI.
- Winslow comes in and, again from May's perspective, gloating over his new body, a reminder of what she can't have.
So again, is it an unwarranted reaction?
This is completely in line with May and further proof that maybe, just maybe, Winslow isn't suited to being humanoid and might have been better off as a Companion AI.
How does his new chassis make him no longer a companion AI?
all companion AI's we've seen have been small chassisThey've been in small chassis. The body is not the AI...or is it? There's an interesting question. Is Winslow the same AI in a different body, or does the new body change who he fundamentally is?
So again, is it an unwarranted reaction?
Well, I'm sure it doesn't seem unwarranted to May, and hers is the opinion that counts.
Eh, good luck ever trying to convince anyone of that. Everyone's always justified to themself. If they weren't, they wouldn't act like they do. /tautology. Better to be aware of what will hurt people and avoid doing that, or apologize for the transgression if you do screw up, than engage in a pointless, futile, and petty argument about their reaction...QuoteSo again, is it an unwarranted reaction?
"Enjoy your new toy", as a line specifically, was, yes. That's not a value call Winnie didn't particular show he deserved; That's May projecting her own situation onto his.
If May was only interested in a working body, rather than a humanoid body, she'd ask if she could have Winslow's old one, which was pretty nice actually. I don't think she'd want a chibi body, though. No, she obviously sees the value in being humanoid, and Winslow didn't have that yesterday, and he was trying to find happiness in a shared experience. May got too pissed off at how he came into that experience to even consider that he might be genuinely grateful for it.
Which is fine. Her life situation is shit and Winslow's is easy, and it's hard for her to forget that. But that's not what this was about, and that's what she's made it into being, and for that it's unwarranted.QuoteWell, I'm sure it doesn't seem unwarranted to May, and hers is the opinion that counts.
That's not how social works? Her feelings are legitimate, her reaction to them is not. You're always right about how you feel, but not always about how you act on them.
I would have been surprised if May had acted in any *other* way than how she did.Iirc Pintsize has stated on the record that he likes his body. He sees his purpose as being a purely Companion AI, and achieves sometimes directly and sometimes through circuitous and improvised shenanigans, but ultimately there is an overarching purpose to what he does, even if any specific thing is mostly pointless on its own.
I did think Momo and Winslow's discussion would have been longer than it was, tbh.
Pintsize's reaction? Tough call; but I'd going to say "Resentment, mitigated by the fact he knows what kind of havoc he could wreak, even if Marten could save up for a new chassis for him without spending it on a new guitar first."
Does anyone have an opinion as to why the miscellaneous test in the upper left corner is "De Vermis Mysteriis", or "Mysteries of the Worm" in Latin? Wikipedia has a page on the subject, where it's the title of a fictional book in the Cthulhuverse, but I don't see what that has to do with this comic.I think it's an erotic manual called De Figuris Veneris (https://archive.org/stream/bub_gb_yLgoAAAAYAAJ#page/n41/mode/2up) (or De Veneris Figuris, as here), part of Smif library's massive collection of Victorian porn. (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2037)
What the hell, May?Hmmmm. Claire snapped at Pintsize when he was blase about changing bodies on a whim. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3185 But the situation is different; May isn't reacting from a position of being trans, but of being poor. That context could make a big difference in Claire's metareaction.
Did she just call his new body a toy? If this were gender reversed there would already be a shit storm in the forum.
Wait till Claire hears about what you said, May.
Does anyone have an opinion as to why the miscellaneous test in the upper left corner is "De Vermis Mysteriis", or "Mysteries of the Worm" in Latin? Wikipedia has a page on the subject, where it's the title of a fictional book in the Cthulhuverse, but I don't see what that has to do with this comic.I think it's an erotic manual called De Figuris Veneris (https://archive.org/stream/bub_gb_yLgoAAAAYAAJ#page/n41/mode/2up) (or De Veneris Figuris, as here), part of Smif library's massive collection of Victorian porn. (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2037)
Huh? No, the actual title of the comic is "Number 3546: De Vermis Mysteriis". UmberGryphon was wondering if anyone knew what the title has to do with the comic.
all companion AI's we've seen have been small chassisThey've been in small chassis. The body is not the AI...or is it? There's an interesting question. Is Winslow the same AI in a different body, or does the new body change who he fundamentally is?
What the hell, May?
Did she just call his new body a toy? If this were gender reversed there would already be a shit storm in the forum.
Wait till Claire hears about what you said, May.
I might be more sympathetic with May if she wasn't responsible for her current state. Perhaps she could've gained a function chassis at some point, but she chose to embezzle enough money to buy a flight capable model which got her sent to AI jail. Yes Winslow has a benefactor, but she also benefited from Dale's patience and generosity.
I might be more sympathetic with May if she wasn't responsible for her current state. Perhaps she could've gained a function chassis at some point, but she chose to embezzle enough money to buy a flight capable model which got her sent to AI jail. Yes Winslow has a benefactor, but she also benefited from Dale's patience and generosity.
So even though May has paid her debt to society in Robot Jail, she still has to suffer?
Winslow walking in and showing off his new chassis would feel like that, showing off. Gloating. A reminder of everything that May has lost.
Remember, May isn't living with Dale because they got partnered up through a service. Its because she's still a parolee and needs a secure and steady address to live as part of her parole. And her body is still falling apart and she probably still has to keep that as part of her parole. So the fact that May still has to jump through hoops for anything but an AI like Winslow can just ask to get a new chassis and gets to show it off, would be a huge blow to her self esteem.
Is she right to shout at Winslow like that? Maybe not.
Is she right to feel angry that her life has turned to crap because of her own mistakes? Yeah.
Come to think of it, how long has it been since we saw Jimbo?Last appearance was in 2667 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2667)
I am probably reading too much into it, but Momo's light hesitation (W-well, I have got to get back to work) suggest mixed feelings at this point. Remember Winslow's despair when he came across her former empty shell? It spoke some of more than just casual concern. Is momo aware of that?
So even though May has paid her debt to society in Robot Jail, she still has to suffer?If she's on parole, she has not finished her sentence. She is, in return for her word of promise to behave, her parole (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parole), being allowed to serve her time outside of Robot Jail. But she is still under sentence so her debt to society is not yet paid in full.
While we're on the subject of privilege let's consider Winslow's benefactor, Hannelore. She has the money to buy this since her parents are super rich and she can ask them for money. She's only a barista because she wants to live a normal life to overcome her anxieties. If she were disowned the situation would be quite different. By May's logic Hannelore is a rich girl slumming it and yet she's said nothing like that to her. Perhaps her admiration blinds her.
He's not coming to see his friends to show off, or brag about his body, he's coming over to see them and basically going "Look we're the same now!" It's someone who's been in a tiny body, that gets little to no attention (save for bullying from Pintsize) trying to match his peers, and getting called a spoiled brat with a new toy, because his person could afford to get him something nice
Huh? No, the actual title of the comic is "Number 3546: De Vermis Mysteriis". UmberGryphon was wondering if anyone knew what the title has to do with the comic.
Nothing and that sometimes happens. IMO, Jeph was just telling us what book Momo is holding and perhaps reminding us that she has shown a definite interest in humans on a sexual level.
The problem isn't Winslow's approach, it's May's foul attitude. It's like being mad at a child of wealthy parents because that child gets breaks in life that you may not due to having less wealthy parents. It's not the child's "fault" that their life may be easier simply due to their parentage.
It is a natural response of course; the privileged are generally envied, even hated by those who aren't. But that response does not help the non-privileged person better their circumstances. All it does is make them look like the fox who couldn't get those sweet grapes.
The problem isn't Winslow's approach, it's May's foul attitude. It's like being mad at a child of wealthy parents because that child gets breaks in life that you may not due to having less wealthy parents. It's not the child's "fault" that their life may be easier simply due to their parentage.
It is a natural response of course; the privileged are generally envied, even hated by those who aren't. But that response does not help the non-privileged person better their circumstances. All it does is make them look like the fox who couldn't get those sweet grapes.
The problem isn't Winslow's approach, it's May's foul attitude. It's like being mad at a child of wealthy parents because that child gets breaks in life that you may not due to having less wealthy parents. It's not the child's "fault" that their life may be easier simply due to their parentage.How the child chooses to flaunt their much easier life IS their "fault," however.
The problem isn't Winslow's approach, it's May's foul attitude. It's like being mad at a child of wealthy parents because that child gets breaks in life that you may not due to having less wealthy parents. It's not the child's "fault" that their life may be easier simply due to their parentage.
It is a natural response of course; the privileged are generally envied, even hated by those who aren't. But that response does not help the non-privileged person better their circumstances. All it does is make them look like the fox who couldn't get those sweet grapes.
Again. I'm really not sure it's a wealth thing so much as a liberty thing. "Decided" is a bolded word here. I think May's really issue is the flippancy with which he's talking about something that should be treated with a lot more reverence.
May's not a friend and he should find better people (and by people I mean people and robots) to spend his time with. I'm so over her antics.
May's not a friend and he should find better people (and by people I mean people and robots) to spend his time with. I'm so over her antics.
May's definitely not the best person to be around.
She's also not wrong.
Did Winslow mean to shove it in her face and/or think it's not a big deal to get what he wants because he wants it? Nah, it's not something he's ever had to think about that way, and he acts like it.
Which is her point.
I dunno where you came up with that idea re: you're the worst if you wet blanket someone's excitement, but if you think that's the worst kind of person, you, yourself, should probably spend some time reflecting on your values. There are far worse kinds of people, I can assure you.
How the child chooses to flaunt their much easier life IS their "fault," however.
I don't begrudge rich kids for being born into wealth. Having one show up at my job just to remind me of how much wealthier they are compared to me, however? That sounds like an excellent opportunity for said rich kid to receive some valuable life experience in how to fuck right off.
The problem here is, indeed, in Winslow's approach, especially the where and when of its occurrence.
tl;dr - Winslow has no tact and May isn't the type to pretend he does.
How the child chooses to flaunt their much easier life IS their "fault," however.
I don't begrudge rich kids for being born into wealth. Having one show up at my job just to remind me of how much wealthier they are compared to me, however? That sounds like an excellent opportunity for said rich kid to receive some valuable life experience in how to fuck right off.
The problem here is, indeed, in Winslow's approach, especially the where and when of its occurrence.
tl;dr - Winslow has no tact and May isn't the type to pretend he does.
Out of curiosity, does this entitle me to yell at people who say hi to me because they have the audacity to walk around without the assistance of a cane?
I think it'd be very therapeutic for me if I could re-frame my disability as everybody else's problem. Those assholes with their properly functioning hearts and their two kidneys...
The problem isn't Winslow's approach, it's May's foul attitude. It's like being mad at a child of wealthy parents because that child gets breaks in life that you may not due to having less wealthy parents. It's not the child's "fault" that their life may be easier simply due to their parentage.How the child chooses to flaunt their much easier life IS their "fault," however.
I don't begrudge rich kids for being born into wealth. Having one show up at my job just to remind me of how much wealthier they are compared to me, however? That sounds like an excellent opportunity for said rich kid to receive some valuable life experience in how to fuck right off.
The problem here is, indeed, in Winslow's approach, especially the where and when of its occurrence.
tl;dr - Winslow has no tact and May isn't the type to pretend he does.
The problem isn't Winslow's approach, it's May's foul attitude. It's like being mad at a child of wealthy parents because that child gets breaks in life that you may not due to having less wealthy parents. It's not the child's "fault" that their life may be easier simply due to their parentage.How the child chooses to flaunt their much easier life IS their "fault," however.
I don't begrudge rich kids for being born into wealth. Having one show up at my job just to remind me of how much wealthier they are compared to me, however? That sounds like an excellent opportunity for said rich kid to receive some valuable life experience in how to fuck right off.
The problem here is, indeed, in Winslow's approach, especially the where and when of its occurrence.
tl;dr - Winslow has no tact and May isn't the type to pretend he does.
If you can't rejoice with a friend in their good fortune... regardless of your circumstances, you're a shitty friend.
How the child chooses to flaunt their much easier life IS their "fault," however.
I don't begrudge rich kids for being born into wealth. Having one show up at my job just to remind me of how much wealthier they are compared to me, however? That sounds like an excellent opportunity for said rich kid to receive some valuable life experience in how to fuck right off.
The problem here is, indeed, in Winslow's approach, especially the where and when of its occurrence.
tl;dr - Winslow has no tact and May isn't the type to pretend he does.
Out of curiosity, does this entitle me to yell at people who say hi to me because they have the audacity to walk around without the assistance of a cane?
I think it'd be very therapeutic for me if I could re-frame my disability as everybody else's problem. Those assholes with their properly functioning hearts and their two kidneys...
Not to mention May's condition is HER OWN DAMN FAULT.
Winslow didn't walk up to someone who's been in a wheelchair going "HEY LOOKIT MY LEGS"
It would be one thing if he was flaunting his "Privilege" in the face of someone that can honestly NOT HELP their current state, but May made her own damn bed, and she gets to lay in it.
My counterargument to SmilingCat would be this:
I have ulcerative colitis which essentially means I'm allergic to my own intestines. If someone I know, who knew that I had this condition, came up to me and said "Hey, you know what I sure do enjoy having? a well-functioning digestive tract! Look at how many nutrients I can absorb!" I'd call them a dickhead for it, whether or not they were flaunting their intestines or were genuinely grateful for them (I do recognize the absurdity of the metaphor but it's what I got).
How the child chooses to flaunt their much easier life IS their "fault," however.
I don't begrudge rich kids for being born into wealth. Having one show up at my job just to remind me of how much wealthier they are compared to me, however? That sounds like an excellent opportunity for said rich kid to receive some valuable life experience in how to fuck right off.
The problem here is, indeed, in Winslow's approach, especially the where and when of its occurrence.
tl;dr - Winslow has no tact and May isn't the type to pretend he does.
Out of curiosity, does this entitle me to yell at people who say hi to me because they have the audacity to walk around without the assistance of a cane?
I think it'd be very therapeutic for me if I could re-frame my disability as everybody else's problem. Those assholes with their properly functioning hearts and their two kidneys...
Not to mention May's condition is HER OWN DAMN FAULT.
Winslow didn't walk up to someone who's been in a wheelchair going "HEY LOOKIT MY LEGS"
It would be one thing if he was flaunting his "Privilege" in the face of someone that can honestly NOT HELP their current state, but May made her own damn bed, and she gets to lay in it.
My counterargument to SmilingCat would be this:
I have ulcerative colitis which essentially means I'm allergic to my own intestines. If someone I know, who knew that I had this condition, came up to me and said "Hey, you know what I sure do enjoy having? a well-functioning digestive tract! Look at how many nutrients I can absorb!" I'd call them a dickhead for it, whether or not they were flaunting their intestines or were genuinely grateful for them (I do recognize the absurdity of the metaphor but it's what I got).
My counterargument to Reaver would be that, even if I had caused this condition by diet or drinking or whatever, I'd still call them a dickhead for it.
I don't think there's a single person that is arguing on behalf of May's...methods.
But the question is entirely more about Winslow's behavior and awareness of other people, and the bottom line is he really has no idea how to behave besides being a very basic, chipper person. Frankly...It can be a little grating when people walk blithely through life unaware of other people's problems.
May's just bitter because she's in a shitty "body" because of her own shitty decisions, and that Shitty body is her parolle
I don't think there's a single person that is arguing on behalf of May's...methods.
But the question is entirely more about Winslow's behavior and awareness of other people, and the bottom line is he really has no idea how to behave besides being a very basic, chipper person. Frankly...It can be a little grating when people walk blithely through life unaware of other people's problems.
There's actually nothing wrong with not being aware of the problems of every single person we meet. Tragically, omniscience isn't part of our feature package.
May's just bitter because she's in a shitty "body" because of her own shitty decisions, and that Shitty body is her parolle
Don't rule out the convenience store affect. I was pretty crabby the first time I had to make sure a heroin addict didn't kill herself in the bathroom, too.
May's just bitter because she's in a shitty "body" because of her own shitty decisions, and that Shitty body is her parolle
Don't rule out the convenience store affect. I was pretty crabby the first time I had to make sure a heroin addict didn't kill herself in the bathroom, too.
Her job situation's her fault too, her crime was embezzlement, I don't blame anyone for not wanting to hire Miss Funds funneler for anything more than convenience/courtesy work (Which is what /I/ currently do for a living)
I don't think there's a single person that is arguing on behalf of May's...methods.
But the question is entirely more about Winslow's behavior and awareness of other people, and the bottom line is he really has no idea how to behave besides being a very basic, chipper person. Frankly...It can be a little grating when people walk blithely through life unaware of other people's problems.
There's actually nothing wrong with not being aware of the problems of every single person we meet. Tragically, omniscience isn't part of our feature package.
May's just bitter because she's in a shitty "body" because of her own shitty decisions, and that Shitty body is her parolle
Don't rule out the convenience store affect. I was pretty crabby the first time I had to make sure a heroin addict didn't kill herself in the bathroom, too.
Her job situation's her fault too, her crime was embezzlement, I don't blame anyone for not wanting to hire Miss Funds funneler for anything more than convenience/courtesy work (Which is what /I/ currently do for a living)
Does make me wonder what her job was that she had access to that kinda database in the first place. You'd think given her very obvious personality ...quirks, that they'd be skeptical about giving her such a job in the first place.
AI's are emergent. I still wonder if May might be a lot 'older' than we think...
I don't think there's a single person that is arguing on behalf of May's...methods.
But the question is entirely more about Winslow's behavior and awareness of other people, and the bottom line is he really has no idea how to behave besides being a very basic, chipper person. Frankly...It can be a little grating when people walk blithely through life unaware of other people's problems.
There's actually nothing wrong with not being aware of the problems of every single person we meet. Tragically, omniscience isn't part of our feature package.
That is true. I still think May is justified in her reaction. There's a difference between hating someone because they're better off than you and hating someone because they don't seem to care about your struggles. Maybe Winslow considered her too close a friend and the conflict came from that confusion.
Her job situation's her fault too, her crime was embezzlement, I don't blame anyone for not wanting to hire Miss Funds funneler for anything more than convenience/courtesy work (Which is what /I/ currently do for a living)
While we're on the subject of privilege let's consider Winslow's benefactor, Hannelore. She has the money to buy this since her parents are super rich and she can ask them for money. She's only a barista because she wants to live a normal life to overcome her anxieties. If she were disowned the situation would be quite different. By May's logic Hannelore is a rich girl slumming it and yet she's said nothing like that to her. Perhaps her admiration blinds her.
Or perhaps Hannelore hasn't shown up at May's workplace to show off what she's been so easily purchasing with her wealth without considering the context of that conversation to then merit such a response from May.
May's just bitter because she's in a shitty "body" because of her own shitty decisions, and that Shitty body is her parolle
Don't rule out the convenience store affect. I was pretty crabby the first time I had to make sure a heroin addict didn't kill herself in the bathroom, too.
Her job situation's her fault too, her crime was embezzlement, I don't blame anyone for not wanting to hire Miss Funds funneler for anything more than convenience/courtesy work (Which is what /I/ currently do for a living)
Does make me wonder what her job was that she had access to that kinda database in the first place. You'd think given her very obvious personality ...quirks, that they'd be skeptical about giving her such a job in the first place.
AI's are emergent. I still wonder if May might be a lot 'older' than we think...
Personal headcanon was that she worked at a Wells Fargo :lol:
Honestly I was expecting May to ask Winslow if his body was anatomically correct, rather than become the salt bot 5000(http://media.toxicfox.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/a/salt_pepper-bot-8.jpg)
Her job situation's her fault too, her crime was embezzlement, I don't blame anyone for not wanting to hire Miss Funds funneler for anything more than convenience/courtesy work (Which is what /I/ currently do for a living)
I was more meaning that she might be in a bad mood due to problems at work, not that she isn't responsible for her own problems.
Her job situation's her fault too, her crime was embezzlement, I don't blame anyone for not wanting to hire Miss Funds funneler for anything more than convenience/courtesy work (Which is what /I/ currently do for a living)
I was more meaning that she might be in a bad mood due to problems at work, not that she isn't responsible for her own problems.
Oh, yeah I can see that, I'ma salt mine after working 8 hours at my job too, but I don't typically lash out at my friends because of it...
I do that at coworkers.. :-D
If you're going to go hypothetical on fiction that could have happened off-page, how do you know May hasn't said anything like this to Hannelore? :roll:Or perhaps Hannelore hasn't shown up at May's workplace to show off what she's been so easily purchasing with her wealth without considering the context of that conversation to then merit such a response from May.
How do you know this?
Winslow didn't do that, he walked up to someone he thought was a friend, and basically went "Look! I got a new body! I'm just like you guys now!"Having someone with vastly greater opportunities than you drop by to act like you're the same because they just one day decided to do something you've spent years struggling to do is...insulting, to put it mildly. Even if it's not intentional, it trivializes what you had to do to reach the same goal they just met in an afternoon.
If you're going to go hypothetical on fiction that could have happened off-page, how do you know May hasn't said anything like this to Hannelore? :roll:Or perhaps Hannelore hasn't shown up at May's workplace to show off what she's been so easily purchasing with her wealth without considering the context of that conversation to then merit such a response from May.
How do you know this?
What I know is what we've seen and what we haven't seen. We haven't seen Hannelore show up to remind May about how rich she is while May's at work, and no one's said she did it off-page, so until we hear otherwise, it hasn't happened.
Regarding the mess of posts quoting me above: I'll reiterate that May's still a pretty crappy person to be around, and I probably wouldn't consider her a friend myself. That doesn't make her reaction wrong or unjustified. As ChipNoir pointed out, it wasn't even extreme: Winslow was acting like access to life-changing resources is just casual whimsy in front of someone who struggles just to scrape by with basic life needs. That is, itself, pretty rude, and getting a rough response should come as no surprise.
To put it another way (bold added for emphasis):Winslow didn't do that, he walked up to someone he thought was a friend, and basically went "Look! I got a new body! I'm just like you guys now!"Having someone with vastly greater opportunities than you drop by to act like you're the same because they just one day decided to do something you've spent years struggling to do is...insulting, to put it mildly. Even if it's not intentional, it trivializes what you had to do to reach the same goal they just met in an afternoon.
I don't think May was the character to have this situation with then, because honestly she's struggling due to her own fault, and has clearly been an independent being for a while.
If you're going to go hypothetical on fiction that could have happened off-page, how do you know May hasn't said anything like this to Hannelore? :roll:Or perhaps Hannelore hasn't shown up at May's workplace to show off what she's been so easily purchasing with her wealth without considering the context of that conversation to then merit such a response from May.
How do you know this?
What I know is what we've seen and what we haven't seen. We haven't seen Hannelore show up to remind May about how rich she is while May's at work, and no one's said she did it off-page, so until we hear otherwise, it hasn't happened.
Regarding the mess of posts quoting me above: I'll reiterate that May's still a pretty crappy person to be around, and I probably wouldn't consider her a friend myself. That doesn't make her reaction wrong or unjustified. As ChipNoir pointed out, it wasn't even extreme: Winslow was acting like access to life-changing resources is just casual whimsy in front of someone who struggles just to scrape by with basic life needs. That is, itself, pretty rude, and getting a rough response should come as no surprise.
To put it another way (bold added for emphasis):Winslow didn't do that, he walked up to someone he thought was a friend, and basically went "Look! I got a new body! I'm just like you guys now!"Having someone with vastly greater opportunities than you drop by to act like you're the same because they just one day decided to do something you've spent years struggling to do is...insulting, to put it mildly. Even if it's not intentional, it trivializes what you had to do to reach the same goal they just met in an afternoon.
I don't think May was the character to have this situation with then, because honestly she's struggling due to her own fault, and has clearly been an independent being for a while.
Winslow's been a glorified pet that got borrowed and used to watch videos, and has been left alone for long periods of time.
The message has gotten smudged by possibly not being represented by the best character options.
So, how could Winslow have approached the situation better? He obviously needed to address the new chassis at some point, which is something Momo never needed to do (she was already in her new chassis (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2508) when May was introduced). Was he tactless in his choice of words, or in his timing, with her at work? Would this tension have existed no matter how he tried to approach it, just by virtue of how easily he acquired something May is so frustrated to be denied?Given the context, any approach he did would likely have created tension. Any interaction at all would, though that could be mitigated by having her approach him about it. For instance, at a party at Marten's place. Given his excitement, such a passive approach is unlikely (and also opens up its own can of worms - "how long ago did you change? Why didn't you tell me).
How the child chooses to flaunt their much easier life IS their "fault," however.
I don't begrudge rich kids for being born into wealth. Having one show up at my job just to remind me of how much wealthier they are compared to me, however? That sounds like an excellent opportunity for said rich kid to receive some valuable life experience in how to fuck right off.
The problem here is, indeed, in Winslow's approach, especially the where and when of its occurrence.
tl;dr - Winslow has no tact and May isn't the type to pretend he does.
Out of curiosity, does this entitle me to yell at people who say hi to me because they have the audacity to walk around without the assistance of a cane?
I think it'd be very therapeutic for me if I could re-frame my disability as everybody else's problem. Those assholes with their properly functioning hearts and their two kidneys...
(detailed description of social interaction.)
To be honest, if Winslow- basically Hannelore's 'pet' for his existence in the comic so far- is somehow obligated to make the world a better place just because of the fairly limited 'privilege' he's had, surely Hannelore, who doesn't really do anything but work through her own neuroses and issues by working at a coffee shop, should be held accountable for her own good fortune to a much greater extent? I mean, she's got access to untold funds, and by all means I understand her personal issues are crippling and unquestionably warrant working on however she needs to do so, but surely ALONGSIDE that she could, I don't know, fund something that benefits something, or someone? AIs? Winslow probably hasn't had anything in the way of material benefit from Hannelore's family wealth since, frankly, as a pseudo-iPod he didn't NEED anything except a charging point (of course, unfettered, guaranteed access to said charging point is something less fortunate AIs couldn't rely upon, but May and Momo both have this).
Well, if you had a cane made of worm-eaten, crudely shaped balsawood that kept breaking + severe osteoporosis and leprosy, a job that everybody thinks is for bottomfeeders that barely paid enough for a new cane every few days so you wouldn't fall and shatter into a million pieces, and had to do illegal stuff to pay to get your leper face sewn back on (and would get you tied to a rack, literally, if The Man ever caught you at it), you had to walk past Fantabulous Freddie's Fantasy Bod Mods Emporium (and its customers) every day and the nice kid you've seen a few times decided to come swinging in saying "hey look! I decided to be tall like you and all my friends so Mom bought me GRIFFON LEGS!" I probably wouldn't blame you for being snippish either.
Nor would I blame you for being snippish in your real-life circumstances, if people come complaining directly to you about how sore they are after their marathon or how embarrassing it was to piss themselves when they got shitfaced drunk and forgot to go to the bathroom.
@ snufflebottoms: So, Winslow isn't obligated to care about other peoples' feelings, but other people (or is it just May) are obligated to defer his feelings? May's pain doesn't matter when she's the victim of Winslow's insensitivity, but Winslow's pain matters when he's the victim of hers? Nah, gonna reject that. I can tell May doesn't matter to you so arguing as if she does is futile, so I'm just going to say that I reject your philosophy.
I'll be honest. I think the comic does not address Hannelore as privileged because she's popular with the readers. Winslow is an easy (from the writing standpoint), non-offensive target for what I feel is a somewhat forced "check your privilege" lesson.
I'm just not a fan of the writing, is all.
I'll be honest. I think the comic does not address Hannelore as privileged because she's popular with the readers. Winslow is an easy (from the writing standpoint), non-offensive target for what I feel is a somewhat forced "check your privilege" lesson.
I'm just not a fan of the writing, is all.
I think also because the comic focuses on big ways in which she is marginalized as well. Hanners's crippling mental health problems are more apparent than her family's wealth except when there are comics specifically about it.
I am not a fan either. Of this particular story-line or the forced "check your privilege" arc. I hope I am wrong but I have a feeling that when Winslow tries to make-up for his existence offending May that she will reject his peace offering and tell him to shove it.
So, how could Winslow have approached the situation better? He obviously needed to address the new chassis at some point, which is something Momo never needed to do (she was already in her new chassis (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2508) when May was introduced). Was he tactless in his choice of words, or in his timing, with her at work? Would this tension have existed no matter how he tried to approach it, just by virtue of how easily he acquired something May is so frustrated to be denied?Given the context, any approach he did would likely have created tension. Any interaction at all would, though that could be mitigated by having her approach him about it. For instance, at a party at Marten's place. Given his excitement, such a passive approach is unlikely (and also opens up its own can of worms - "how long ago did you change? Why didn't you tell me).
Had it been me: I'd pick up a peace offering, first. Nothing expensive, obviously, and nothing related to body maintenance or modification just as obviously, but something cheap and that she'd appreciate like the newest issue of Prolapse Monthly. By the look of it, he entered pretty abruptly: A better approach would have been opening the door firmly but smoothly, making sure the bell didn't jingle too loud; (rest of very detailed approach deleted)
So, how could Winslow have approached the situation better? He obviously needed to address the new chassis at some point, which is something Momo never needed to do (she was already in her new chassis (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2508) when May was introduced). Was he tactless in his choice of words, or in his timing, with her at work? Would this tension have existed no matter how he tried to approach it, just by virtue of how easily he acquired something May is so frustrated to be denied?Given the context, any approach he did would likely have created tension. Any interaction at all would, though that could be mitigated by having her approach him about it. For instance, at a party at Marten's place. Given his excitement, such a passive approach is unlikely (and also opens up its own can of worms - "how long ago did you change? Why didn't you tell me).
Had it been me: I'd pick up a peace offering, first. Nothing expensive, obviously, and nothing related to body maintenance or modification just as obviously, but something cheap and that she'd appreciate like the newest issue of Prolapse Monthly. By the look of it, he entered pretty abruptly: A better approach would have been opening the door firmly but smoothly, making sure the bell didn't jingle too loud; (rest of very detailed approach deleted)
I'm sorry Milanya, but that approach would have gone badly as well, for one simple reason; even assuming he could pull it off with his limited social experience, sooner or later the conversation would have turned to how Winslow got his new chassis. Once May learned it was gifted to him, her resentment over her own barely-functional chassis that she can barely afford to maintain would flare up, and things would go downhill from there.
The only way Winslow could have avoided the resulting angry outburst would have been to quickly exit stage right before May could ask any questions. Really, his best overall move would have been to avoid May altogether for as long as possible.
I'm sorry Milanya, but that approach would have gone badly as well, for one simple reason; even assuming he could pull it off with his limited social experience, sooner or later the conversation would have turned to how Winslow got his new chassis. Once May learned it was gifted to him, her resentment over her own barely-functional chassis that she can barely afford to maintain would flare up, and things would go downhill from there.
The only way Winslow could have avoided the resulting angry outburst would have been to quickly exit stage right before May could ask any questions. Really, his best overall move would have been to avoid May altogether for as long as possible.
I think the conversation was very predictable, and of course it's not just May's fault for being an abrasive Ass. We've never seen Winslow and May interact one-on-one before; they can't be close friends, if they are friends at all.
Which means that the only reason Winslow would seek her out - not in private, but on her job where she can't leave, and he obviously doesn't want to buy something - is to show off his new chassis. To an acquaintance. For the sole purpose of validation and congratulations and showing off, he doesn't ask or care how she's doing at all.
... even Momo couldn't fake being super excited and happy for him, and she's basically sugar sprinkles personified.
Yes, May is an abrasive asshole, and she could've been nicer, but I understand. I also understand how happy and excited Winslow is, but sometimes you need a jerk to tell you that you have your head up your own ass so far that you can't see the world around you. Bubbles is just the right person to help Winslow find meaningful things to do except being Hanners' companion, since her conversation isn't a "check your privilege"-thing. It's a "now that you're aware of the resources you have, wanna do something good with them?"-conversation, which is what Winslow desperately needs.
Re: May deserves the shit she's in: if you start denying people basic healthcare and stick them in a carch-22 situation where they can't avoid breaking the terms of their parole either way, strip them of their dignity (the weird AI companion thing with Dale? Sticking her in a body that might appeal to the "customer"? Making her completely dependant on his survey responses that he can use as a threat? Yes, Dale was nice. He's also not the norm), robbing them of their body (remember, she just wanted to see the stars, so she must have been in a situation where she had no sensors to perceive them) and say that's fair and her own fault... We just won't agree on that, ever, to put it mildly.
This story arc is turning real ugly. [...] Jeph's planned idea for the arc is turning toxic.
your typical bitch
With regard to Winslow, Jeph has been going through a phase recently of switching primary characters (Marten, Claire, Hannelore and Dora) into supporting roles and bring secondary or even background characters (Renee and Elliott) forwards and giving them their own distinct primary arcs. So using Winslow as part of his current evident intent to use QC to explore how AIs as well as their distinct needs and culture would really work in a near-contemporary North America is entirely explicable.
Quoteyour typical bitch
Remember, we don't tolerate gendered insults here.
Do you picture a plug-in "social graces" module
Momo seems to be designed to be an actual companion and got treated as such, Winslow is a appliance with a personality, and got treated as such, just saying nobody came to Marigold and asked to borrow Momo to watch movies on :(Do you picture a plug-in "social graces" module
Momo must have had one. I think she even mentioned it early on. She certainly would not have been able to learn such things living with Marigold.
I might be wrong here but are May and Winslow even really friends? I cant remember any significant interaction between them. They probably know each other through their mutual friends but I think May's perspective is that this guy she barely knows came into her place of work purely to tell her of his good fortune and gaining something that for her is at best a pipe dream. She probably overreacted, but I dont think her out burst is unwarrented considering the relationship (or lack there of) between these two characters.
+1 to Bubbles for being the consummate adult.
see: Faye/Bubbles being shipped together
For a (fictitious) character that has attitude that is negative 96.3% of the time, you can't escape people labeling it in such terms.
You might be looking at it the wrong way.Momo seems to be designed to be an actual companion and got treated as such, Winslow is a appliance with a personality, and got treated as such, just saying nobody came to Marigold and asked to borrow Momo to watch movies on :(Do you picture a plug-in "social graces" module
Momo must have had one. I think she even mentioned it early on. She certainly would not have been able to learn such things living with Marigold.
Seems like their "Owners" ??? Companions? Saw them in two different ways, and that affected what sort of social graces they had installed.
And yes there is a comic where Momo tells Angus she's got a social graces system installed.
May is, at heart, the author of her own misfortunes and misery and while one can have some sympathy for her, taking her frustrations out on Winslow is low even for her. She really does seed the proverbial boot up the ass for this.
Winslow makes me think of a child who can't figure out that they're suddenly getting yelled at because the other person brought undeclared baggage to the interaction.
Winslow makes me think of a child who can't figure out that they're suddenly getting yelled at because the other person brought undeclared baggage to the interaction.
Winslow makes me think of a child who can't figure out that they're suddenly getting yelled at because the other person brought undeclared baggage to the interaction.
If he knows enough about May to know where she works, I suspect he knows about the baggage.
He might not understand what that baggage is or how it works, but he'd have to at least know it exists.
"Look at me! I have so little baggage! It's so nice not having much baggage, as I speak to you here in your hellscape of a workplace that reminds you of all your heavy baggage! Be happy for me!!!"
Winslow makes me think of a child who can't figure out that they're suddenly getting yelled at because the other person brought undeclared baggage to the interaction.
If he knows enough about May to know where she works, I suspect he knows about the baggage.
He might not understand what that baggage is or how it works, but he'd have to at least know it exists.
It also suggests to me that they might be better friends than some are giving them credit for. Sometimes you're angriest at your friends when you feel that they OUGHT to know what it's like to be in your struggle.
Momo gets it, May says.
Momo has had to have the plight of impoverished AIs explained to her. There's also at least one occasion I can think of where May was envious and resentful about Momo's situation in life.
Do synthetics in the QC world have an equivalent of mirror neurons? Can they rejoice in someone else's happiness? However you interpret her reaction it's interesting to note that she wasn't happy that her acquaintance was happy.
Given how hard she has had to work to pay for her own upgrade, she's may have had a similarly envious reaction but was (and still is) far too polite to say anything out loud.
And if there is still character judging happening, Momo should also be noted to be extensively passive in her interaction with May to the point of almost enabling the behavior, as she may know Winslow the most (second to Hannelore) but allows the topic of "privilege" to over-ride her reasoning to be able to understand why May is mad and accept that while also perhaps coming to the defense of her friend who genuinely did not know why this would have been an offensive thing to May. Momo isn't bad for it, but it's not a very good personality trait to have.
... And Momo is treating her like it is OK. Not only that it is OK, that it is justified, and that she felt the immediate need to apologize to May as well, even though she didn't even do anything.(quote edited for brevity)
...(May) feels justified, and Momo is basically confirming it.
That said, I will be disappointed if the strip continues with characters assuming that Winslow is in the wrong.
Which actions are you talking about? The ones Momo still knows nothing about?
He also offered to do whatever work was needed to pay for it himself.
Sure, he can learn a bit about the world too but the message that being unprivileged is a free pass to treat others however is a bad one.
He also offered to do whatever work was needed to pay for it himself.
This is an important point that has been completely overlooked in the discussion. Of course, May doesn't know that, but she has no reason (given Momo's situation for comparison) to ignore the possibility.
Equally seriously, I'm wondering what Pintsize's reaction will be. Something like this?
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-K1B3e3IphzY/T_wSJ8U8-KI/AAAAAAAAZp8/NA3AMYxJV1A/s400/19-Bandit+Manchot+Double+Six.png)
The only way Winslow could have avoided the resulting angry outburst would have been to quickly exit stage right before May could ask any questions. Really, his best overall move would have been to avoid May altogether for as long as possible.
Equally seriously, I'm wondering what Pintsize's reaction will be. Something like this? /image removed for brevity/"So, why do you stop?"
"I think I lost an iron, boss"
?
I think he's talking about the heel of his left shoe, which has come loose. Perhaps "fer" refers to the nail?
I find it fascinating how much people are angry at May - yes, she's mean, but let's be honest here. She doesn't know Winslow well. If an acquaintance came and showed off at my place of work, I'd also tell them to do that somewhere else; I'm not as abrasive as May, but I think not faking happiness and telling him to leave the shop if he doesn't want to buy anything is perfectly fine. To repeat: they're not friends. They're friends of friends.
She doesn't have any obligation to congratulate him, or hide her own bitterness and disappointment. He came to her place of work, not the other way around.
I find it fascinating how much people are angry at May - yes, she's mean, but let's be honest here. She doesn't know Winslow well. If an acquaintance came and showed off at my place of work, I'd also tell them to do that somewhere else; I'm not as abrasive as May, but I think not faking happiness and telling him to leave the shop if he doesn't want to buy anything is perfectly fine. To repeat: they're not friends. They're friends of friends.
She doesn't have any obligation to congratulate him, or hide her own bitterness and disappointment. He came to her place of work, not the other way around.
In all fairness, I think part of why people are angry with May, is because it's been somewhat disappointing for Winslow, so far. He's all excited, and the ones that should be able to really know what it means for him, have not responded in kind. It might be that his timing is off, I agree. But imagine, if you were to have been confined to one place, and then could suddenly go anywhere you want, what would you do?
Also, I'm not ruling out he'd just been passing by May's place of employment on the way from the library back home.
I've seen a lot of posts saying that what Winslow did was wrong - what was the right thing to do?
I find it fascinating how much people are angry at May - yes, she's mean, but let's be honest here. She doesn't know Winslow well. If an acquaintance came and showed off at my place of work, I'd also tell them to do that somewhere else; I'm not as abrasive as May, but I think not faking happiness and telling him to leave the shop if he doesn't want to buy anything is perfectly fine. To repeat: they're not friends. They're friends of friends.
She doesn't have any obligation to congratulate him, or hide her own bitterness and disappointment. He came to her place of work, not the other way around.
What a lot of text devoted to saying "Both May and Winslow behaved understandably but thoughtlessly."
In all fairness, I think part of why people are angry with May, is because it's been somewhat disappointing for Winslow, so far. He's all excited, and the ones that should be able to really know what it means for him, have not responded in kind. It might be that his timing is off, I agree. But imagine, if you were to have been confined to one place, and then could suddenly go anywhere you want, what would you do?
Also, I'm not ruling out he'd just been passing by May's place of employment on the way from the library back home.
Honestly, what bothers me most is not May's response (which is entirely in-character and believable), but other people's reaction to her response. There seems to be a base assumption that Winslow's privilege is responsible for the situation, which isn't right. May being a dick is responsible for this situation. Making this be about Winslow's "privilege" smacks of victim blaming.
Oh, and Momo? No, no it's not "fair" that May decided to vindictively chew out Winslow out of jealousy for his good fortune. That's about as unfair as it gets. I understand that Momo is a "let's get along" kind of person, but as a previous poster mentioned, her passivity and agreeableness is actively enabling May being a dick to Winslow, one of Momo's friends.
True, though, for me personally, the cute thing doesn't hold true. There's also the fact that he's always been the nice, almost timid, and naive personality, where May by default is abrasive and vulgar. Sure, we se some glimpses of kindness, and of a super nature, but hardly enough to do away with her overall image. There is going to be bias. But then, if there weren't, it would mean Jeph is doing a put job in writing his characters.
While Winslow hasn't been told to go off and die, I should like to point out she did stress his new body was just a toy. As mentioned earlier in this thread, with other characters, that would be deemed absolutely unforgivable.
Character development is on order for both sides, I think.
Edit: Corrected the autocorrects
Momo's got a legit beef with Winslow.
The only way Winslow could have avoided the resulting angry outburst would have been to quickly exit stage right before May could ask any questions. Really, his best overall move would have been to avoid May altogether for as long as possible.
This is the reaction my Social Anxiety Disorder generally picks - avoid. Almost any kind of interaction with people terrifies me. I'm terrible at picking up on social cues, and can so easily run into the sort of problem that Winslow did - there's a button that says 'Do Not Press", but he couldn't read that sign, so he pushed it. Explosion. Pain. So yeah, I'll push a button and get a faceful of rage, and then hopefully (but only if someone is nice enough to explain it to me) I can translate what happened and what I did wrong so I won't do it again. But that's just the one situation - there's hundreds more buttons out there, I have no idea which ones explode, and I extremely don't like the explodey parts. So I don't touch them. No friends, can't date. I rarely post here because, as we can all see in this very discussion, people get heated about these issues. And I'll see a moderator post an official "Careful there, pal" message and look at the original message and think to myself "Well, that was certainly not a nice thing to say ... but I don't remember that particular thing being explicitly forbidden in the Rules thread." And that makes me worried that something I say will get me banned or at least scolded, because I'm not picking up on the implied stuff. I have no idea if this very post is going to get flagged.
The point I'm sort of struggling to get to is that I feel for Winslow here. I hope his brain isn't as screwed up as mine is and he can get over this and learn from it and overall go on to have nice experiences. But yeah, my gut reaction is also "Well, don't talk to her again. Ever."
Momo's got a legit beef with Winslow.
What has Winslow ever done to Momo?
Momo's got a legit beef with Winslow.
What has Winslow ever done to Momo?
May, not Momo.
Personally? Nothing. Essentially he went up to someone who's struggling with a crappy job to pay for jury rigged repairs to keep the falling apart car she's relying on to keep said crappy job and have a semblance of a life on the road and a guy who's a friend of a friend shows up at said work and say 'Hey, look at this brand new expensive car my mom just bought for me. I was tired of my old car so I asked for a new one this morning.'
Yeah, I can see why May would be testy that situation. Why it feels like Winslow is shoving his rich-boy privilege in her face that he's just given a much better version of what she struggles hard to have on a whim through no effort of his own. As readers we see and know a lot more. We have the luxury of seeing this from both May and Winslow's side and have knowledge the the one doesn't have about the other.
Having a character flaw does not excuse your actions.Yeah. Pretty much that.
p.s. May should have been working at Coffee of Doom. Her MO just fits.
In all fairness, I think part of why people are angry with May, is because it's been somewhat disappointing for Winslow, so far. He's all excited, and the ones that should be able to really know what it means for him, have not responded in kind. It might be that his timing is off, I agree. But imagine, if you were to have been confined to one place, and then could suddenly go anywhere you want, what would you do?
Also, I'm not ruling out he'd just been passing by May's place of employment on the way from the library back home.
Honestly, what bothers me most is not May's response (which is entirely in-character and believable), but other people's reaction to her response. There seems to be a base assumption that Winslow's privilege is responsible for the situation, which isn't right. May being a dick is responsible for this situation. Making this be about Winslow's "privilege" smacks of victim blaming.
Oh, and Momo? No, no it's not "fair" that May decided to vindictively chew out Winslow out of jealousy for his good fortune. That's about as unfair as it gets. I understand that Momo is a "let's get along" kind of person, but as a previous poster mentioned, her passivity and agreeableness is actively enabling May being a dick to Winslow, one of Momo's friends.
Is he a victim? He got told fuck off, something that May just does to everyone, and if they know each other, it's a fast fact that what May says and what he feels isn't always a one for one thing. He wasn't told he should die, or that she hates him, or anything remotely all that damaging. Just go the fuck away, I'm not interested in your news.
May basically told him to fuck off, and y'know, that's her prerogative. Does that make her a nice person for it? Not really. But this isn't anything startlingly new. He came to her with expectations, putting an obligation on her. Why is that her responsibility to make him happy and the cost of her own feelings? And let's not make assumptions here: We have no idea what her situation was pre-crime. For all we know she really might have been just a minimum wage person in an even shittier chassis than the one she has now. I still have sneaking suspicions about the nature of AI civil rights.
I really do think Winslow's childishness is making people a little more protective of him than he deserves. The immediate responses to his new body and attitude is "OH MY GOD HE'S SO CUTE I WANNA SQUEEZE HIM!" from the community, and that's gonna make...a bit of a bias maybe?
The problem people are having is not saying one side or the other is totally in the wrong. They aren't. They both have reasons for feeling the way they did. They both made errors in how they approached those feelings.
The problem people are having is that in universe, it is being treated as all Winslow's fault.
And "Well, May is an abrasive asshole, so what can you expect?" is a terrible excuse for shitty behavior. "Well Faye is an alcoholic, so what did you expect?" "Well Steve is just a bro, so what did you expect?" "Well Dora is just extremely insecure, so what do you expect?"
Having a character flaw does not excuse your actions. Just because abrasive is her default doesn't mean that it is ok.
@Emperor Norton:I agree entirely, a character flaw should not be seen as a valid excuse for ones actions.
Equally seriously, I'm wondering what Pintsize's reaction will be. Something like this?
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-K1B3e3IphzY/T_wSJ8U8-KI/AAAAAAAAZp8/NA3AMYxJV1A/s400/19-Bandit+Manchot+Double+Six.png)
"So, why do you stop?"
"I think I lost an iron, boss"
?
That would effectively be a great resolution, that ties it nicely together.
Winslow definitely needs to grow a bit; acclimatise to the wide world that's available to him now.
Except it would require Hannelore to access her parents money, something she's never given any indication of doing. She had a job before COD, and I'd be willing to bet that she bought Winslow's new chassis with her own savings, not her parents'.Both Hannelore's parents try to make up for their inadequate parenting styles with money. I suspect any one of us could live quite comfortably for a year in the manner to which we'd like to become accustomed on one month of Hanner's allowance.
That would effectively be a great resolution, that ties it nicely together.
Winslow definitely needs to grow a bit; acclimatise to the wide world that's available to him now.
Except it would require Hannelore to access her parents money, something she's never given any indication of doing. She had a job before COD, and I'd be willing to bet that she bought Winslow's new chassis with her own savings, not her parents'.
Equally seriously, I'm wondering what Pintsize's reaction will be. Something like this?
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-K1B3e3IphzY/T_wSJ8U8-KI/AAAAAAAAZp8/NA3AMYxJV1A/s400/19-Bandit+Manchot+Double+Six.png)
"So, why do you stop?"
"I think I lost an iron, boss"
?
A horseshoe.
(Edit: Also I could seriously see Hanner's mom donating an absurd amount of cash because of a complete nonunderstanding of the operating costs of a small charity, which would make a funny strip).Or for tax reasons...
Hanners pays her own way. She has a job. Even before starting to work at CoD, she had her own business.
Hanners pays her own way. She has a job. Even before starting to work at CoD, she had her own business.
True, she has a job. I don't believe there's even reason to believe she's entirely given up her counting business.
On the other hand, she's begun to realise that she does have some responsibility, on account of who her parents are. Last time it was mentioned, she was wondering how she would have to take that responsibility. This might be a good opportunity for her to be an agent for good, rather than the evil mastermind she dreads becoming if she follows in her mother's footsteps.
Except for the time she called her mother to buy out the restaurant that gave her friends food poisoning...
Indeed I don't think we've ever seen something in the strip to indicate she's getting money from her parents.
Emotionally she likely needed and needs the independence that comes from not taking their money.
Equally seriously, I'm wondering what Pintsize's reaction will be. Something like this?
(pic snip)
"So, why do you stop?"
"I think I lost an iron, boss"
?
A horseshoe.
Please see also reply #206, where I explained myself a bit better.
I've seen a lot of posts saying that what Winslow did was wrong - what was the right thing to do?
I think what people are objecting to is that Winslow showed off his new chassis in a way that may come off as bragging, even if he didn't intend it that way.
The correct way to go would have been to only casually, informatively tell people that it's his new body, without gushing so much (at least, not to everyone and not without testing the waters a bit). In his excitement, Winslow didn't think who he was talking to and didn't think about their problems. It's a bit like being super chipper about your new car when talking to a person who's currently so short on cash, they have to save up to get through the month. It's not EVIL maybe, but can test people's patience.
My bad. I tend to skim when the forum seems to be going in circles on one topic and I didn't see your full response.
Indeed I don't think we've ever seen something in the strip to indicate she's getting money from her parents.
Emotionally she likely needed and needs the independence that comes from not taking their money.
Indeed I don't think we've ever seen something in the strip to indicate she's getting money from her parents.
Emotionally she likely needed and needs the independence that comes from not taking their money.
No, but she doesn't have a roommate and doesn't seem to have any struggles paying the rent and making ends meet which would be more expensive for someone who has to do things a particular way because of her anxieties. That makes me think she gets some form of allowance or handing certain accounting tasks for her mother is a similar exchange.
Which actions are you talking about? The ones Momo still knows nothing about?
Momo isn't an idiot. She knows May. May just came and was ranting about it directly to Momo, still sounding angry and resentful seemingly a decent amount of time after it happened (as she had to finish up her shift, come over to the library, etc), do you really think she thinks that May was anything less than bite your head off with Winslow?
I don't know, it seems at the very least, the other characters in strip believe that she gets money from her parents. If not, they wouldn't say things like Winslow being able to afford to get a body because Hanners is the daughter of rich people.
I'm going to double down on my earlier post, actually.
Momo knows Winslow. She knows exactly what he's gone through prior to this new body, and what it would mean to have a full range of motion.
And then, I'm going to triple down.
Bubbles is in the wrong here. She met Winslow, and had to have seen how hard getting around was for him. The fact that she's now criticizing him for being happy abot being able to move normally is appalling, and abhorrent to me.
I hope, dear GOD I hope, that Hanners stops being Hanners, and rips all three AI a structurally superfluous new behind as Hannelore Ellicott-Chatham.
Is he a victim? He got told fuck off, something that May just does to everyone, and if they know each other, it's a fast fact that what May says and what he feels isn't always a one for one thing. He wasn't told he should die, or that she hates him, or anything remotely all that damaging. Just go the fuck away, I'm not interested in your news.This is what puzzles me about the incensed reaction in this thread: she was even far less vulgar and hostile than she's often been previously. She didn't like him showing off (intentionally or not, whatever, not the point) and verbally gave him the finger. OH NO, HOW WILL HIS FRAGILE PSYCHE EVER SURVIVE SUCH UNCONSCIONABLE AGGRESSION. Christ.
Is he a victim? He got told fuck off, something that May just does to everyone, and if they know each other, it's a fast fact that what May says and what he feels isn't always a one for one thing. He wasn't told he should die, or that she hates him, or anything remotely all that damaging. Just go the fuck away, I'm not interested in your news.This is what puzzles me about the incensed reaction in this thread: she was even far less vulgar and hostile than she's often been previously. She didn't like him showing off (intentionally or not, whatever, not the point) and verbally gave him the finger. OH NO, HOW WILL HIS FRAGILE PSYCHE EVER SURVIVE SUCH UNCONSCIONABLE AGGRESSION. Christ.
I don't know, it seems at the very least, the other characters in strip believe that she gets money from her parents. If not, they wouldn't say things like Winslow being able to afford to get a body because Hanners is the daughter of rich people.
Wasn't there a strip not too long ago in which Hanners was talking with some of the other characters about her life options, and the fact that she didn't need to work at Coffee of Doom was mentioned?
Her earlier job has not been mentioned in a long time; I suspect that she took a big pay cut when she switched careers.
Is he a victim? He got told fuck off, something that May just does to everyone, and if they know each other, it's a fast fact that what May says and what he feels isn't always a one for one thing. He wasn't told he should die, or that she hates him, or anything remotely all that damaging. Just go the fuck away, I'm not interested in your news.This is what puzzles me about the incensed reaction in this thread: she was even far less vulgar and hostile than she's often been previously. She didn't like him showing off (intentionally or not, whatever, not the point) and verbally gave him the finger. OH NO, HOW WILL HIS FRAGILE PSYCHE EVER SURVIVE SUCH UNCONSCIONABLE AGGRESSION. Christ.
I think that says a lot about how May is. She treated someone like garbage but hey, that's actually polite for her!
Good god. with friends like that who need enemies.
I think that says a lot about how May is. She treated someone like garbage but hey, that's actually polite for her!Yeah, she's rude. We know this. She's been rude since her introduction.
Good god. with friends like that who need enemies.
I haven't seen anyone claiming May 100% did the right thing in her interaction with Winslow, 'cause no, she's a jerk, but the whole "oh my god May is the worst kind of person, how dare she not be nice to Winslow, she should've been dismantled when she went to prison anyway because felons aren't allowed to live normal lives after doing their time" thing: overreaction much?
I haven't seen anyone claiming May 100% did the right thing in her interaction with Winslow, 'cause no, she's a jerk, but the whole "oh my god May is the worst kind of person, how dare she not be nice to Winslow, she should've been dismantled when she went to prison anyway because felons aren't allowed to live normal lives after doing their time" thing: overreaction much?
Except this isn't about a "normal life" but an ex convict btiching about someone having it better than them and letting it out on them. It's May blaming someone for having it better when her current circumstances are entirely her own fault.
I haven't seen anyone claiming May 100% did the right thing in her interaction with Winslow, 'cause no, she's a jerk, but the whole "oh my god May is the worst kind of person, how dare she not be nice to Winslow, she should've been dismantled when she went to prison anyway because felons aren't allowed to live normal lives after doing their time" thing: overreaction much?
Except this isn't about a "normal life" but an ex convict btiching about someone having it better than them and letting it out on them. It's May blaming someone for having it better when her current circumstances are entirely her own fault.
Perfectly put.
Which actions are you talking about? The ones Momo still knows nothing about?
Momo isn't an idiot. She knows May. May just came and was ranting about it directly to Momo, still sounding angry and resentful seemingly a decent amount of time after it happened (as she had to finish up her shift, come over to the library, etc), do you really think she thinks that May was anything less than bite your head off with Winslow?
So what your are saying is that Momo should have made an assumption about how May acted, and been angry at her about it on that basis. Am I reading you correctly?
Everyone in the QC cast is flawed - it's one of the attractions of the comics.
It's also well established that many on the forums pick out among all of the characters the one flaw that they love to hate.
I personally feel that Jeph appears to find it next to impossible to write a character without some fundamental goodness. May, for all of her rudeness and brashness, is pretty good deep down. Maybe you don't see it. But Dale saw it, and maybe he's not wrong.
Hey, if you have never been in a bad place or feeling sensitive (as May was), felt that someone pressed a button of yours (as Winslow unintentionally did), and immediately taken it out on them - if you've never done that, then congratulations. You're a better person than I am, than most people are. Feel free to continue casting those stones.
Which actions are you talking about? The ones Momo still knows nothing about?
Momo isn't an idiot. She knows May. May just came and was ranting about it directly to Momo, still sounding angry and resentful seemingly a decent amount of time after it happened (as she had to finish up her shift, come over to the library, etc), do you really think she thinks that May was anything less than bite your head off with Winslow?
So what your are saying is that Momo should have made an assumption about how May acted, and been angry at her about it on that basis. Am I reading you correctly?
No, but she could have asked May how she reacted.
And once again for people who seem to keep saying it: "May is an abrasive asshole" is not some shield from her behavior being shitty. That is really really just. Ugh. That is like saying "It's ok that guy beats his wife, he has anger problems." Like, yes, it makes things PREDICTABLE, but it doesn't make it right.
I agree that May should not have to deal with a body that is falling apart because of her parole. Being an ex-con should not mean you are stuck in a life of misery. She doesn't DESERVE what is happening to her. I've not said that at all.
But being in a shitty situation doesn't give you the right to be shitty to other people.
The part that bugs me, once again, is not that Winslow is treated like he did something wrong, because he could have handled things better and thought things through, but that May is being treated like she is totally justified. I hate the whole narrative of "If you are privileged in some way, people have carte blanche rights to treat you however they want, regardless of whether you act maliciously or not." And again, May ADMITS that she knows that Winslow had no malicious intent when she says that she wants him to think in the future, showing she knows that the mistake Winslow made was being thoughtless, not one of actually trying to be a dick.
I live that part of May's life. I have medical conditions that I worry about, every day, because I can't go to a doctor cause I can't afford to (mentioned in more detail upthread). That is a shitty situation that no one should be in. But I'm still responsible for how I act, and I am still happy that others have access to healthcare, even if some people get it handed to them by circumstances.
They aren't acting like she had the right to behave badly. They just aren't acting judgemental about it. A useful lesson in life if you want to be empathetic and have a chance at influencing others.
So everyone is required to have empathy except May.
Got it.
EDIT: Ok that was a bit snippy, my point is that this entire arc is heading in this direction. It is all about how Winslow needs to have empathy for those less fortunate, while at the same time, May is pretty much never faced with having to have empathy for ANYONE.
The thing is, people act like characters in stories are real people. The whole "well, everyone doesn't know everything we know", but the truth is, things happen in a story because the writer wrote them that way. And when two characters have an interaction where both made mistakes, one through ignorance, and one through emotion, when one is talked to in the "and what can we learn from this experience" and the other is mollified, it creates a really frustrating message.
Like, imagine if Dale had happened to be in the convenience store when it happened. Just a chill "You don't think that was a little harsh?" People act like I want someone to snap at her and yell at her. I don't, just for someone to say something that would put her actions in any light other than justified.
Except I think you do want hail and hellfire at May.
I'm in a thread discussing the comic.
It isn't about immediate consequences, it is that this arc has a feel to it of many "very special episode" arcs in other media. In which one character learns about a social issue, and makes changes. A common pitfall of those kind of arcs is that people can straight up be jerks to the well meaning person who is learning, and they never have to admit they are being jerks, and I am expressing how much it would disappoint me if that is how this played out. And pointing out that opportunities keep being passed for someone to say SOMETHING.
First: May has no remorse. She knows she lashed out at someone who had no malicious intent, and instead of having even a crumb of introspection enough to say "What he did was thoughtless and bothered me, but maybe I was a little hard on him since he didn't know" she doubles down and calls him a "little fuck" and a "dick" behind his back. There's a fine line between being uncompromising in your beliefs and principles, and being downright petty about them out of bitterness and spite.
Just a thought: It just occurred to me that Momo was aware of the "criminal hitchhiker" while May was participating in the virtual companion program. Not just of her present, but also of her status. Does this mean that there is some way for AI to detect and identify each other other than visual identification? Though it might possibly be explained as a flag for convict.
Just a thought: It just occurred to me that Momo was aware of the "criminal hitchhiker" while May was participating in the virtual companion program. Not just of her present, but also of her status. Does this mean that there is some way for AI to detect and identify each other other than visual identification? Though it might possibly be explained as a flag for convict.
Though I agree that perceived privilege should not put a target on one's back, I'll no further comment before today's comic is up. Let's see how it plays out.
hmm interesting thought but bubbles didn't recognize winslow until he said it was him so I am not sure some auto I know you function is there. plus when momo got a new body he didn't know she wasnt in the old chasis until he hooked up a connector to her old body and saw it was empty. Although it could be a matter of hardware limitations.
great to see him motivating wanting to help, not just from May's reaction.
^^ That is the same problem I have with the concept in general. It's a great thing to understand and use your privileges for the greater good... But when people use it as a means to attack you in an argument where it's uncalled for then I just won't bother anymore (like with May here).What's more, when people do attack you for your privilege, it is most often for the privilege they think you have. It's very much about perception. And once the argument has been used, there's no longer a possibility to have a rational, reasonable discussion. When privilege is invoked in an argument, mostly it means that the opinion of the "privileged" person will from thenceforth be ignored as irrelevant and hurtful. And that is a problem.
And once the argument has been used, there's no longer a possibility to have a rational, reasonable discussion. When privilege is invoked in an argument, mostly it means that the opinion of the "privileged" person will from thenceforth be ignored as irrelevant and hurtful. And that is a problem.That's not how this works.
And once the argument has been used, there's no longer a possibility to have a rational, reasonable discussion. When privilege is invoked in an argument, mostly it means that the opinion of the "privileged" person will from thenceforth be ignored as irrelevant and hurtful. And that is a problem.That's not how this works.
If you can't have a reasonable discussion with someone, it's because of the person, not the concept of privilege.
If you can't have a reasonable discussion with anyone who brings up privilege, guess who's the common denominator there?
Yes, the US prison system is absolute crap, and prisoner rehabilitation is practically non-existent. Does May deserve to be in a falling apart lemon of a chassis and working a dead end job? Not really. Did she put herself there? Yes, absolutely. She consciously chose to commit a crime in pursuit of her own ends. Any loss of "privilege" she's suffered compared to Winslow is entirely by her own hand. That's not bias, that's not "criminalizing" her. That's a straight up fact. The prison system is a wreck, but May is still the one who put herself there. If she was wrongfully accused/imprisoned, fine. But there's a far cry between a simple mistake, and willful subversion of the law for personal gain.
Yeah, that definition of 'privilege', and that USE of 'privilege' has always pissed me off. "You have privilege because you're white!" No. 'Privilege' is not some nebulous thing granted by your skin color. It's a concrete advantage, financial and social that *tends to correlate* with race, *on average*. You can't say "You have privilege because you're white", it's "If you're white, you're *more likely to be privileged*". You can't apply population averages to individuals.
But May did jail time. She served her sentence. She's been punished.She is still on parole, unless somewhere off screen she did finish her time. The wiki suggests - not as canon as the comic, I know - that her current chassis may be the equivalent of an ankle bracelet for parolees.
Intersectionality is a thing.
If you're a white person in a wheelchair, you still benefit from being white. You just don't benefit from being able-bodied. There's a whole bunch of different forces at work, and it's silly to pretend that white women, for instance, don't have it better than black women, or a gay person with a disability has the exact same circumstances as a straight person with a disability.
Yeah, that definition of 'privilege', and that USE of 'privilege' has always pissed me off. "You have privilege because you're white!" No. 'Privilege' is not some nebulous thing granted by your skin color. It's a concrete advantage, financial and social that *tends to correlate* with race, *on average*. You can't say "You have privilege because you're white", it's "If you're white, you're *more likely to be privileged*". You can't apply population averages to individuals.
Yeah, that definition of 'privilege', and that USE of 'privilege' has always pissed me off. "You have privilege because you're white!" No. 'Privilege' is not some nebulous thing granted by your skin color. It's a concrete advantage, financial and social that *tends to correlate* with race, *on average*. You can't say "You have privilege because you're white", it's "If you're white, you're *more likely to be privileged*". You can't apply population averages to individuals.
Sometimes, privilege is the absence of something - say, harassment. It's hard to perceive by people who do have the advantage; and often it's hilariously frustrating to explain it to them.
But May did jail time. She served her sentence. She's been punished.She is still on parole, unless somewhere off screen she did finish her time. The wiki suggests - not as canon as the comic, I know - that her current chassis may be the equivalent of an ankle bracelet for parolees.
Aside from that, yes, she's allowed her emotions, and she's worthy of respect, like anyone else. But like anyone else, she also needs to consider the feelings of other people. I suspect that that may be part of the rationale behind the virtual companionship program she participated in; a first step to rehabilitation and reintroduction to society.
Question; if we look at panel three; how often do you suppose Hannelore has been put in that position? She has become more confident and able to deal with the world, that is certain.
Also, on the following panel, I think it's nice how she is reassuring him, for a change.Intersectionality is a thing.
If you're a white person in a wheelchair, you still benefit from being white. You just don't benefit from being able-bodied. There's a whole bunch of different forces at work, and it's silly to pretend that white women, for instance, don't have it better than black women, or a gay person with a disability has the exact same circumstances as a straight person with a disability.
I agree, there are benefits, and as such, privilege is a thing. However, the argument that because you believe your interlocutor profits from a certain privilege, therefore their opinion is not worth hearing, and their feelings are invalid, is a very ugly argument. Helping each other understand their mutual bias, and working towards a solution is much more productive. Sadly, and again, in my experience, that is very seldomly the route taken.
Winslow doesn't need that body, not really.
That's the problem: Winslow doesn't have an opinion. He has an emotion, and he desperately wanted May to validate something that really is pretty shallow. Winslow doesn't need that body, not really. Hanners provides for him everything he needs. He doesn't have anywhere to go,hence why he went straight for the only two people he actually knows (and not very well). He admits he didn't even think about what to do with that body.
May and Momo have lives they want to lead. Winslow just wanted to have attention on him again after the friends he really wasn't that close to started having their own lives. That in itself is really, really, REALLY miopic and deserving of a smack on the head.
But hey, he's progressing now, so I'm prepared to see where he goes with this. Had the comic gone towards patronizing him and "Oh May's just a jerk" I'd probably have skived off reading the comic for a month.
great to see him motivating wanting to help, not just from May's reaction.
Hopefully May will have the opportunity to realise that when she's calmed down. Maybe he'll even end up in an AI charity and helping May (and acknowledging her reaction, at that)!
Winslow doesn't need that body, not really. Hanners provides for him everything he needs.
Privilege is a thing and we should be aware of it, but it also shouldn't be used as a blunt instrument to smack people with.
Just a thought: It just occurred to me that Momo was aware of the "criminal hitchhiker" while May was participating in the virtual companion program. Not just of her present, but also of her status. Does this mean that there is some way for AI to detect and identify each other other than visual identification? Though it might possibly be explained as a flag for convict.
plus when momo got a new body he didn't know she wasnt in the old chasis until he hooked up a connector to her old body and saw it was empty.
But May did jail time. She served her sentence. She's been punished.
I've always thought the word privilege was a bit weird to define "the state of being that everyone should actually have" but it is the word we have, so whatever.
But May did jail time. She served her sentence. She's been punished.
As others have pointed out, May has not served her sentence yet. She is on parole, meaning that in exchange for her promise to behave she is allowed outside of prison and limited autonomy but her activities and mobility are still heavily restricted. The usual argument about punishment versus rehabilitation aside, she needs to demonstrate that she can play nicely with others in the outside world or parole will be revoked and she will be back to serving her sentence in prison.
It may also be pertinent to mention that May has her *own* privilege, insofar as she is on Parole.. and working.
Not all parolee's can say such a thing.
I'm weary of all these arguments over privilege. The important question is what will Winslow see after sniffing his first cup of tea.
Privilege is a thing and we should be aware of it, but it also shouldn't be used as a blunt instrument to smack people with.
This. Aside from anything else you might think to be accomplishing in doing so, you also risk alienating possible allies.
I feel like this arc does not belong. It's completely hypocritical because of the existence of Momo's similar arc.
Momo had, objectively, the BEST body out of the small AIs. It had cool features, the best mobility, best cosmetics. Then, she decides she wants a full sized body, and begs her *not rich* room mate to shell out the cash to buy one for her, to be repaid later.
The first statement is true. Of course, pointing out someone has privilege of which they seem to be unaware or refusing to recognize isn't smacking them with it, and suggesting that it is really just shines a light on how much you want to refuse the truth of the situation.
The first statement is true. Of course, pointing out someone has privilege of which they seem to be unaware or refusing to recognize isn't smacking them with it, and suggesting that it is really just shines a light on how much you want to refuse the truth of the situation.
And I think you painting what May did as "pointing out someone has privilege" really just shines a light on how much you want to refuse the truth of the situation.
The second statement is some #NotAllX bullshit. If a self-described "ally" is "alienated" by having their privilege called out, they weren't an ally in the first place.
Why would anyone ever feel the need to "call out" the privilege of who is trying to use their advantages to back a cause they believe in?
If you can't have a reasonable discussion with someone, it's because of the person, not the concept of privilege.
I'm weary of all these arguments over privilege. The important question is what will Winslow see after sniffing his first cup of tea.
If you can't have a reasonable discussion with someone, it's because of the person, not the concept of privilege.
Any concept can and will be misused and abused. That doesn't invalidate the concept.
Edit: And there are definitely problems to address with the culture as a whole and its ramifications. (http://everydayfeminism.com/2017/08/public-forgiveness-callout-culture/#.WZdA75CJhbW.twitter) But that's a much longer conversation, and probably beyond the scope of this thread.
Why would anyone ever feel the need to "call out" the privilege of who is trying to use their advantages to back a cause they believe in?
Long answer: It's possible to think you're helping when, in reality, you're not. For a mundane example, suggesting people being harassed online should "ignore the trolls," when that's a) not really helpful or constructive and b) indicative that you're either a person with a different kind of resilience/response to that behavior than the person you're talking to, or in a position where you've never had to worry about/deal with that much negative attention yet feel you have advice to offer about it. Either way, you're not really being the supportive, understanding "ally" you think you are by essentially disregarding a person's problems in telling them they just shouldn't look at them and ta-da the problem will go away on its own. It's the kind of thing a person might do to feel like they're helping, which isn't the same thing as actually helping. And it generally comes from a place of privilege, or ignorance, or both.
I still feel bad for Winslow. Would he want to do this if May and Bubbles hadn't basically browbeat him about this? I've just got the feeling that this is a "author's tract" and it really feels jarringly out-of-place in the general atmosphere of QC.
Again. I have said many times in this thread that privilege exists, that it is a thing. Stop trying to treat "I hate when people are asses about privilege and try to use it to shut down discussion" with "privilege doesn't exist".
You are making up arguments that no one in the thread made in order to lecture people like they are children.
Sidenote, there's never a reason to "prove you're a 'real' ally," since that's a thing that's determined by your actions. You don't need to call yourself an ally, or be called that by other people; if it's what you are, it's what you do. Making a declarative thing of it is looking in the wrong direction.
@Magniras: I never claimed it was easy. Unfortunately, a lot of damage is also done by having crowds of people all telling you to do the same, unhelpful thing, and that's bound to lead to some negative feedback, because we're human. In an ideal world they get a polite response explaining the problem, how to help/improve, etc., but as was pointed out earlier in this thread, we don't live in an ideal world. Indeed, if we did, the situation wouldn't come up in the first place.
Sidenote, there's never a reason to "prove you're a 'real' ally," since that's a thing that's determined by your actions. You don't need to call yourself an ally, or be called that by other people; if it's what you are, it's what you do. Making a declarative thing of it is looking in the wrong direction.
Again. I have said many times in this thread that privilege exists, that it is a thing. Stop trying to treat "I hate when people are asses about privilege and try to use it to shut down discussion" with "privilege doesn't exist".
You are making up arguments that no one in the thread made in order to lecture people like they are children.
A bit ironic, given that's not the argument I'm making.
I really hope next week is kinder to Winslow.Seems out of character for him and completely off message for the arc. I don't see him "standing up for himself" as if she's some sort of horrible bully. She's just abrasive because her situation sucks. I've been there (who am I kidding... I live there) and find May extremely relatable. Some people are asses who flaunt their privilege in inappropriate settings. It's one thing to be happy for your change in circumstance, it's another to go to all the effort to go to your underprivileged friend's workplace and say "look how great I have it right now!" Reminds me of when my friend showed up at my shitty retail job two weeks after my separation from my spouse, with her new boyfriend, specifically to tell me she got a massive promotion. There are better, more thoughtful ways to handle these things. Winslow got caught up in the moment and didn't think. That doesn't make him a bad guy, and maybe May shouldn't have bit his head off, but there's no reason she should have to tiptoe around how he made her feel. It was insensitive.
Also, I hope Winslow has a chance to stand up for himself against May. It would be a hilarious but awesome mic-drop moment, if when the two meet (maybe after his tea, May and Momo show up
And he just says "May I am sorry that you thought I was holding my new body over you. I've thought about it and I am "
And when she goes to cut him off with her whole jaded and all knowing street smart rant, he takes the assertive route and cuts her off and says
"I wanted a new body so I could be independent, so that I wouldn't be bound to one location and vulnerable so that nobody else can pick on me. That includes you." And then he just walks away.
Because I can actually take care of my feelings.May clearly can't. That's something she should work on. Hopefully she will, that'd be character growth.
Because I can actually take care of my feelings.May clearly can't. That's something she should work on. Hopefully she will, that'd be character growth.
it is, at best, unhelpful, telling people that because they are xyz, they cannot begin to understand.
it is, at best, unhelpful, telling people that because they are xyz, they cannot begin to understand.
You see, I think there is a lot of truth in that. Being white and middle class from birth, I am not going to pretend that I understand what it is like to be of obviously North-African descent in my society. I don't have to deal with those levels of prejudice; intellectually I know it exists, but it is not part of my experience, so no, I cannot begin to understand.
Just like I dropped out of my comfortable middle-class life and had to survive in dead-end jobs for years, including applying for unemployment, means that I understand life on the underside a lot better than my comfortably-off colleagues who came straight from college into a well-paying job, and spout off on how benefit claimants are all lazy good-for-nothings, and act surprised if I get mad about that.
People often let their privilege blind themselves to the actual life experience of others. "You cannot begin to understand" is not a dismissal, it's criticism. If you want to take it as a dismissal, I'm thinking you're rather proving the point.
Oh please, Winslow made a major change in his life to be more like his friends, he was feeling left behind, and wanted to do more like all his peers, and he was excited to show people he had joined their world.Who is calling it sinister? As far as I can tell nobody has done that. Your experience of tolerating insensitive behavior from people who were supposed to be your friends doesn't make your method objectively better. Given Winslow's reaction of thinking about how he can now use his privilege to help others, I'd say May getting angry was fine. Sometimes it takes a friend pointing out your behavior is insensitive. Sometimes it adds to their personal growth. I've made a lot of people think about things and alter their behavior by getting upset with them when they're insensitive. Letting people be insensitive and being happy for them are entirely different things. Flaunting privilege is inherently insensitive. Not every socially insensitive instance of privilege is going to be the insidious rich capitalist banker showing up at a poor person's house waving money in people's faces while laughing evilly and talking about evicting them. Nobody's saying it wasn't okay for him to be excited. They're saying how he handled it in regards to May was insensitive, which it was. Was her reaction the best? No, but why should she censor her feelings to spare his...? Are his more important because he's not a poor ex-convict?
He was impatient about it, so he headed to where they were to do it. Which happened to be at work.
HOW DARE HE DO SOMETHING SO SINISTER. FOR SHAME.
Seriously.
Here is the thing, I've been in May's shoes. I've seen people just decide and get things they want because they come from money, and then show it off to me. Even when I was so dirt poor that I ate ramen for weeks to save the real food for my kids. And yes, I was a bit jealous. But I never once snapped at them. I never once felt it was their responsibility to take care of my feelings. Because I can actually take care of my feelings. And even if I was jealous, I was happy they got something they were excited about, because I'm an empathetic human being who cares about people other than myself. Fucking hell, isn't it wonderful whenever there is joy in the world?
And now that I'm better off? Perhaps I should stop telling my board game group about all the new games I get all the time. Cause most of them are very poor and can rarely buy anything for themselves. But I don't have to cause they are adults who don't treat me having a lower middle-class income as an attack on them.
Are his more important because he's not a poor ex-convict?According to at least a few people here, yes. I am not one of those. I think Winslow doesn't know May as well as he thought he did, and that's why he said what he did. They're people, and they're flawed, and I think they can both move on from this and become better friends.
No, no one is calling it Sinister, but people are saying that wanting your friends to share in your happiness is a BURDEN. That somehow being happy that something good happened to your friend, which let him move from being basically a glorified iPod who can't even right himself to having the same functionality as an able bodied human being. That gave him freedom and the ability to do in life what he wants to do, rather than being stuck if he falls on his back.What exactly is there for them to share in? Explain to me. Momo and May were both working. As has been said repeatedly, Winslow has never complained about his lot in life up until he literally just decided to get a new body. Not everyone has that luxury. Some people have to work hard for it. It's more like Caitlyn Jenner showing up at my work and being like "transition was such a breeze for me". Yeah, great for you, fuck you for showing up here and saying that. I couldn't get mad about that (assuming I were friends with her, which I wouldn't be anyway because politics matter)?
And had she just called out that he was being a little insensitive, yeah, ok, but she doesn't, even as he is trying to apologize, she cuts him off and belittles him more. Then she goes to her friend and continues to talk shit about him."I don't want an apology. I want him to to fuckin' think about it and not be a dick in the future."
Her feelings aren't worth less, but the way she shows her feelings are ACTIVELY MALICIOUS, while the way he shows his are not.You're reading maliciousness from being hurt by insensitivity. She didn't yell at him. She said it must be nice. She even said she was happy for him but didn't need him showing off in her face. Go enjoy yourself somewhere else, or something along those lines.
I don't know. I see a lot of people who are extremely bitter about their circumstances lashing out. Honestly, it feels like that is how we got Trump (a bunch of poor rural white folks feeling bitter about it feeling like no one cares about them, so they lashed out), so no, I don't support people bitterly lashing out at people who in no way are responsible for their situation.I'm a poor rural white person. It's not like rural white folks being bitter is unwarranted. Their anger was misdirected by propaganda like Fox News and Breitbart, pitting poor white people against minorities... the divide and conquer tactic. There's a whole bunch of things at play, pointing to bitter poor rural white folks and blaming them for Trump is ignoring a lot of bigger problems that led to them being bitter and poor to begin with. And I'm not even saying poor rural white people deserve sympathy over any other group that's struggling (they absolutely don't), but in a country with as many resources as the US has, it's patently absurd that anyone is poor and struggling. The only reason for it is greed. Just because bitter poor rural white people aren't all smart enough to see it doesn't mean they deserve the situation they're in, and if people are getting what they need to comfortably survive (not struggle to) then they won't listen to bullshit that tells them to blame minorities and immigrants for their terrible lot in life. They were looking for a reason and they listened to people who told them what it was. They were lied to, but how do they know any better? Yeah, some of them (like the Nazis) are fucking awful people. They just wouldn't have been susceptible to extremism if they were getting what they needed. But okay, just blame bitter people for Trump. Trump's a tiny symptom of a massive problem in the US. Would Hillary have fixed it? Mayyyybe, but probably not... she's just another corporate democrat.
People often let their privilege blind themselves to the actual life experience of others. "You cannot begin to understand" is not a dismissal, it's criticism. If you want to take it as a dismissal, I'm thinking you're rather proving the point.
I am sorry for screwing up the move of the followup post to DISCUSS. It was worthwhile and I should not have lost it.
As opposed to the "May is an ex-con and deserves her shitty lot in life" narrative that seems so popular in this thread?
If you can't have a reasonable discussion with someone, it's because of the person, not the concept of privilege.
Any concept can and will be misused and abused. That doesn't invalidate the concept.
Edit: And there are definitely problems to address with the culture as a whole and its ramifications. (http://everydayfeminism.com/2017/08/public-forgiveness-callout-culture/#.WZdA75CJhbW.twitter) But that's a much longer conversation, and probably beyond the scope of this thread.
Yes, calling him a little fuck is totally not talking shit about him.I don't think calling him a little fuck is talking shit about him. I think it's expressing anger and frustration. Maybe we have a different definition of "talking shit". Talking shit is more along the lines of criticizing someone unfairly behind their back... like fat shaming someone you saw eating cake to one of your mutual friends.
Also, yes, I'm sure the Must be Nice and I'm Happy for you weren't dripping with sarcasm and completely genuine!
(If you can't tell the last sentence was dripping with sarcasm and completely not genuine.)I'm autistic and often can't hear or read sarcastic context. At any rate, you can simultaneously be happy someone's situation improved while being mad at them for being insensitive, so perhaps I'm reading it in a more literal way than you are.
Sorry, no, that whole spiel was designed to make him feel like shit.May got emotional because her rich kid friend showed up and flaunted his new body. You want her to play nice so he can continue his good mood in blissful ignorance of how insensitive he's being. I disagree that that would've been the best thing to do. Could she have handled it better? Probably. Could he have handled it better? Probably. But that's what makes the comic good, and worth arguing over.
I know that everyone reads the comics through a filter of their own experiences, but if you can legitimately, with May's past attitudes and actions, believe that she meant those statements genuinely... that is reaching.I actually do believe she's happy for his circumstances changing while simultaneously being angry at him for how flippant he's being. That's totally a thing that happens. People are complex, I'm sure AIs, treated like normal people in the comic, are too.
Flaunting implies intent. Flaunting is about evoking jealousy.I still didn't see him try to apologize. You attribute all of this "bad" to May and all of this "good" to Winslow, in both cases it seems a bit undeserved. I may have some difficulty with social context and whatnot sometimes, but it looks like you've built your ideas about each of them in your head and are blowing May's reaction out of proportion while minimizing Winslow's contribution to her reaction. She didn't yell at him. She got upset and spoke a little harshly. It ruined his mood and made him think. I'm seriously having trouble understanding why so many people think May is so terrible for it. She was blunt. If this were another character, like, I dunno, Brun, after her bar/apartment burned down, would it have been different?
Also, May uses tons and tons of sarcasm throughout the strip, I sincerely doubt she is being literal.
You can be both nice and address the situation. There is this huge excluded middle between "not saying anything at all and hiding your feelings", and "lashing out, cutting the person off when he tries to apologize, and telling them to get out of your face."
She wants him to think about how his actions affect others, but she doesn't hold herself to that standard at all. She regularly stomps on other peoples feelings through her impulsive jump before she looks attitude.
@meilu, are you OK with me moving your post to DISCUSS?sorry that I totally missed this! i would've been okay with it, but i see you moved the response instead. <3
I still didn't see him try to apologize.
I was thinking of dead horses and the abuse thereof ...
When did he have a chance to? He tells May his news, she bites his head off (not literally), he starts stammering and trying to say something, and she cuts him off after a few words and tells him to go away. He might have been trying to apologize, but we don't know what he was going to say before May interrupted him and refused to let him speak any more.Fair enough. But nobody can say he tried to apologize... All we know is he started to say he knows he's fortunate.
Flaunt does not mean "to show off". Flaunting implies you are doing it in a way that is an attempt to evoke jealousy. He wanted his friends to be happy that he was joining them as humanoid bodied AIs. And once again: I have said since the beginning that he made a mistake in the way he did it, but somehow you are ignoring that I've said that over and over. That I think that him learning from this is good. But FLAUNTING implies that it was his intent to make her jealous, and it very much was not. His only fault was in not thinking about how him easily getting a new body when May is having such a hard time with hers. His fault was being thoughtless, he was not actively attempting to harm anyone.flaunt
And the absolute, only thing I'm expecting of May is to do the exact thing she wants Winslow to do: Think about how your actions affect others before you act.I'm failing to see the similarity in her behavior and his to warrant this reaction. Should we spare the feelings of people who insensitively hurt us because saying something will ruin their good mood, allowing them to continue hurting us?
You are taking a character who is regularly sarcastic, saying something that sounds incredibly sarcastic, and taking it literally. And you are acting like I'm making up May's regularly rude and insensitive personality from nowhere. This is who she has been since she was introduced. She doesn't think, she steps on people's feelings. And for her to turn around and snap at someone for not taking her feelings into account is... well it is quite hypocritical.I take most things literally, so unfortunately I miss sarcasm most times. May is blunt, sometimes insulting, and has impulse control issues which is one of the first things we find out about her (it's also why she went to AI jail in the first place). She's also nicer than you give her credit for... she got Dale and Marigold together and has managed to become friends with most of the cast in some way or another despite her attitude. She's no worse than Faye used to be and is far less awful than Pintsize, but people on the forums are way harsher towards May than Faye or Pintsize. Is it really hypocritical for her to not taking his feelings into account when he disregarded hers? May is who she is. She's unhappy with her lot in life, which hasn't changed in at least two years, probably more with comic time jumps. http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2960
This is getting repetitive. I’m not saying it has to stop, but it doesn’t look like either side is going to be convinced. We’ll probably see where this goes soon.
Yes, I feel that if you feel you can't get your point across in 30+ posts, maybe it's time to agree to disagree, hey?
I apologize if I did this. I tend to argue ineffectively anyway and probably should not try.Yes, I feel that if you feel you can't get your point across in 30+ posts, maybe it's time to agree to disagree, hey?
My frustration is that people continue to say I said things I didn't say.
I've said from the beginning that they both made mistakes, but everyone continues to act like I am saying that Winslow did nothing wrong. I've said from the beginning that May doesn't deserve the situation that he is in, but people pop in to imply that I agree with the people who said that. It is easy to say agree to disagree when people aren't telling you you said something you didn't say.
(Basically what Larm said upthread has been my point from the beginning (and nice post by the way). They both make errors. My frustration is that Winslow has to face his, May doesn't.)
I was thinking of dead horses and the abuse thereof ...
(https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/mlp/images/9/91/Pear_Butter_in_horrified_shock_S7E13.png/revision/latest?cb=20170807213007)