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Comic Discussion => QUESTIONABLE CONTENT => Topic started by: BenRG on 03 Dec 2017, 11:15

Title: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: BenRG on 03 Dec 2017, 11:15
Okay, because we're not afraid of open communication here, I think that the time's come to assess how the forum is responding to Tilly.

This is a simple numerical poll with a value assigned to how you view her (for ease of reference, I've added suggestions about what each value could be considered to mean). The objective here is to get a feel for the overall view of how everyone sees them. Don't be afraid to post what's really going on in your heads. Not that people on this board do that anyway! :wink:

For me? I have to admit to be mostly indifferent to Tilly. They were an interesting and quirky little experiment but they've not really endeared themselves to me and I really can't see what value there is to the character going forwards. There are lots of other ways to kick Hannelore's arc into motion and I can't see Tilly having any kind of an interesting interaction with other characters that doesn't boil down to them taking advantage of Tilly's reflexive need to do anything Hannelore might want them to do.

Now, let's talk about this week in the strip.

I'm kind of expecting Hannelore to take her new PA on a tour of the town this week and maybe for a while more. So, we'll have Tilly interacting with Momo, May, Faye, Bubbles and maybe the Secret Bakery crew. It may be interesting to see how they react to (and creates reaction from) the various different personalities in Hannelore's life.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Bad Superman on 03 Dec 2017, 12:44
I voted "1", for reasons I described in detail in last weeks thread.

I don't see any benefit in Tilly being a part of the QC universe.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Case on 03 Dec 2017, 14:03
Given that I've always had a weak spot for "amoral antihero(ine)s", it's surprising how creepy an "amoral good" character can be.

Let's try a 7.

(Yes, I'm surprising myself here - stop gawking at me ...)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: BenRG on 03 Dec 2017, 14:50
FWIW, in the classic alignment spectrum, you can't have 'amoral good', only 'lawful neutral' and 'lawful evil'. IMO, 'amoral good' is an oxymoron. FWIW, I list Tilly as 'lawful neutral'.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Case on 03 Dec 2017, 15:10
FWIW, in the classic alignment spectrum, you can't have 'amoral good', only 'lawful neutral' and 'lawful evil'. IMO, 'amoral good' is an oxymoron. FWIW, I list Tilly as 'lawful neutral'.

Yeah, y'know, 'lawful neutral/evil/headstand' is not 'classic', that's D&D-jargon (and never said much to me either way) & I don't think the human moral spectrum can be readily reduced to the rules of an RPG. And about 'amoral good' being an oxymoron: Tell that to The Operative ...

"All of them: Better Worlds ..."


:laugh:
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: hedgie on 03 Dec 2017, 15:34
IIRC, the Operative admits that what he does is evil, and that he's a monster.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: pwhodges on 03 Dec 2017, 16:00
The mods would like to say:

Global Moderator Comment Since the Tilly misnaming joke has been addressed in the comic and seems to be over, we're going to go back to the standard of requesting everyone please try to spell all character names (or nicknames) correctly.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Case on 03 Dec 2017, 16:07
IIRC, the Operative admits that what he does is evil, and that he's a monster.

Yup, but he does evil to achieve good, to "make all of them Better Worlds" (Admittedly, he's also a few sandwiches short of a picnic, but it's the principle that counts ...  :-D)

That is what is so unsettling about him: He's completely sincere about being a monster and having no place in the Utopia he tries to bring about - yet he's also completely convinced that the end justifies any and every means necessary to achieve it, and seeing as he happens to be on speaking (and shaving) terms with a military-grade psychopath, he considers himself to be the appropriate tool. The thought that the means might taint the goodness of the end never occurs to him.

P.S.: Also, Mal and the gang are quite open about not being 'The Good Guys'TM, either.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: foolsguinea on 03 Dec 2017, 16:56
I voted #6, but I should have voted #7 or #5...or even #1. I don't want Jeph to try harder with Tilly. Once it turned into Tilly standing on her their one's her own hands to find something to do, I figured this concept was burned out. Just send Tilly back to wherever people like that wait for jobs.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: NemesisDancer on 03 Dec 2017, 18:13
Tilly's alright but I would've personally preferred to see further development of existing characters (particularly the Secret Bakery staff), or caught up on characters we haven't seen in a while (Marigold, Steve, etc.) rather than introducing more new ones.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: mercykills on 03 Dec 2017, 19:52
Personally, they get a '1'.

I, seriously, think the main cast should've stood aside and let the psycho stalker throw themselves into ocean. But whatever....

If we're just talking story-wise? It's still a '1'. Honestly, someone tell me what the stalker brings to the table that's unique; one role that isn't filled by another main or secondary cast member. PREFERABLY, something that doesn't make the skin crawl.

I mean, when Clinton was first introduced, it was played off for a laugh(?) of him having an intense(creepy) fascination with Hanners but that was just one(maybe two, at the most IIRC) strip and then we quickly moved on. Heh. Out of weird curiosity, I would, probably, like to meet the fan who looked at that unfortunate trait of his character and said, "Hey, what if we took that small part of Clinton and made an entire character who was just THAT! Just intense and creepy, all the time."

But, it's like a war...we're already in it, too late to pull out, now. So, f*** it, buckle up, let's see where this new character takes us.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Neko_Ali on 03 Dec 2017, 20:02
I think "Jesus Tilly calm down' is a good nickname for them. And even better advice...
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Shjade on 03 Dec 2017, 20:08
IIRC, the Operative admits that what he does is evil, and that he's a monster.

Yup, but he does evil to achieve good, to "make all of them Better Worlds" (Admittedly, he's also a few sandwiches short of a picnic, but it's the principle that counts ...  :-D)

Right...but if he recognizes he does evil, he's not amoral. He has a moral sense, and is concerned with the rightness of his actions. He values the ends over the means, but he's not indifferent to the means. If he were, he wouldn't have had the moral event horizon breakdown at the end when he realized he was on the wrong side, because oh well, I guess I was wrong, but whatever, who cares how wrong it was.

Basically the Operative just...er...operates on a utilitarian sense of ethics.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Timemaster on 03 Dec 2017, 21:15
I've voted number 8.
Yes, certainly an eight. Not the best character, but certainly really really funny.  :lol:

TM
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: brasca on 03 Dec 2017, 21:24
I voted for 7 because I think there's a lot of room for potential and while this strip does have a large cast of characters who haven't appeared in awhile because of lack of any plots to involve them in I think it's better this way.  Creating a far fetched reason for Marigold, May, or Brun to be Hannelore's personal assistant would just be too convoluted.  Besides new people enter our lives all the time while others fade away into past acquaintances. 

Given those past nicknames of Tilly I'd say they have an atypical psychological profile and will fit in nicely.  Perhaps it was one of the reasons Beatrice chose her. 
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: badbum61 on 03 Dec 2017, 22:08
Tucson, Tucumcari, Tehachapi, Tonopah...
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Gyrre on 03 Dec 2017, 22:44
IIRC, the Operative admits that what he does is evil, and that he's a monster.

Yup, but he does evil to achieve good, to "make all of them Better Worlds" (Admittedly, he's also a few sandwiches short of a picnic, but it's the principle that counts ...  :-D)

That is what is so unsettling about him: He's completely sincere about being a monster and having no place in the Utopia he tries to bring about - yet he's also completely convinced that the end justifies any and every means necessary to achieve it, and seeing as he happens to be on speaking (and shaving) terms with a military-grade psychopath, he considers himself to be the appropriate tool. The thought that the means might taint the goodness of the end never occurs to him.

P.S.: Also, Mal and the gang are quite open about not being 'The Good Guys'TM, either.
As I recall, Light Yagami subscribed to a similar philosophy as his Kira persona in Deathnote.

Something to the effect of making himself a twisted sort of martyr by being only person performing evil acts in his vision for a new world.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Gyrre on 03 Dec 2017, 22:47
Tucson, Tucumcari, Tehachapi, Tonopah...
Tilapia, Tepaché, Tetch, Titch...
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: BenRG on 03 Dec 2017, 23:18
Marten! Marten! Focus, son! You are drifting off again and you need to focus!

Yes, Tilly is over-intense to the point where you have to question their ability to function properly. It's inevitable (especially during school) that this would have led either to abuse or to people who were permanently worried about their safety or health (mental or emotional especially).

I also have to agree with Hannelore: Tilly has failed in professionalism to date; why start worrying about that now?

And about 'amoral good' being an oxymoron: Tell that to The Operative ...[/youtube]

Definitely Lawful Evil. I'm pretty sure he would cheerfully agree with the analysis.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: DaiJB on 03 Dec 2017, 23:32
Tardigrade!? Yes! That fits her perfectly - the most nearly indestructible, unstoppable organism on earth ;)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Timemaster on 03 Dec 2017, 23:48
Hanners,
Tillys negotiation to get you a new phone has been very professional, IMO.
And it‘s only one and a half day left.

Oh, I‘m gonna enjoy this.  :-D
Timemaster
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: A Duck on 04 Dec 2017, 01:15
Huh, going by their past "nicknames", I'd say Tilly and Hanners seem like very compatible people.

They're both very "intense" on their endeavours, for various reasons.

Of course, disconsidering the whole "PA" angle.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Cornelius on 04 Dec 2017, 01:26
To be fair, the negotiation did not strictly have anything to do with their relationship, even if it does demonstrate some professional aptitude for the position. As does the schedule she proposes for the rest of the day.

To me, Tilly has potential. The mere fact of being a new character opens up perspectives outside of the regular cast, when it comes to challenging Hannelore. I think the problem is mostly just being over eager, and not seeing how that may cross other people's boundaries. On the other hand, seeing Hannelore recognise some of the issues she struggled with herself, and accomodating for that, is interesting in itself.

The person who hired Tilly for the job - as assigned by Beatrice - probably had just the dossier to base themselves on as well. As that is, as shown last week, wildly inaccurate at best, it's not really surprising that personality-wise, the hire turns out to be a mismatch.

I disagree with most of the existing characters that have been proposed as a PA. Only Winslow - or Momo - could realistically fill that niche. May is out of the question - even if she does show some deference to Hannelore - as, like someone in the last WCDT suggested, she is hardly diplomatic enough.  I'll admit, that her friendship with Marigold has helped Hannelore push some boundaries. But by doing so, she has come to be part of Hanners' comfort zone. I don't think she can still helpfully challenge Hannelore.
Quite aside from that, I doubt either Marigold or Brun would make effective PAs.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Akima on 04 Dec 2017, 01:34
Tucson, Tucumcari, Tehachapi, Tonopah...
Tilapia, Tepaché, Tetch, Titch...
Tarpon, Trigger, Tokamak, Tarantula...
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: traroth on 04 Dec 2017, 01:39
I voted 1. I don't actively dislike Tilly, I just find them, you know, boring.

They negociated a good deal with Hanners' telco? How thrilling...

The most fun we seem to have here is with the nicknames given to them.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: traroth on 04 Dec 2017, 01:41
Tucson, Tucumcari, Tehachapi, Tonopah...
Tilapia, Tepaché, Tetch, Titch...
Tarpon, Trigger, Tokamak, Tarantula...

Tagliatelle, Turtle, Tyranosaurus, Terminator, Thesaurus, Telephone, Trepan...
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: TinPenguin on 04 Dec 2017, 01:47
Turns out we are all Faye.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Marco on 04 Dec 2017, 02:39
Tucson, Tucumcari, Tehachapi, Tonopah...
Tilapia, Tepaché, Tetch, Titch...
Tarpon, Trigger, Tokamak, Tarantula...

Tagliatelle, Turtle, Tyranosaurus, Terminator, Thesaurus, Telephone, Trepan...

Tinytoon, Tiamat, Telecaster, Teetotaler, Tacobell, Titanomachy...
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 04 Dec 2017, 03:21
Tucson, Tucumcari, Tehachapi, Tonopah...
Tilapia, Tepaché, Tetch, Titch...
Tarpon, Trigger, Tokamak, Tarantula...

Tagliatelle, Turtle, Tyranosaurus, Terminator, Thesaurus, Telephone, Trepan...

Tinytoon, Tiamat, Telecaster, Teetotaler, Tacobell, Titanomachy...
Tedious, Tepid, Terrible, Tilled
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: maneyan on 04 Dec 2017, 03:41
Voted a seven. While they pissed me off initially, I can't help but having warmed up to them. Ever since Hannelore showed she could put down boundaries I warmed up considerably. Having an annoying puppy follow you around can be funny, as long as you can set down boundaries. It's the difference between an annoying associate and letting people walk all over you.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Moggie on 04 Dec 2017, 03:54
Maybe Tillywinks, from tiddlywinks.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: daphne on 04 Dec 2017, 04:18
I voted #6, but I should have voted #7 or #5...or even #1. I don't want Jeph to try harder with Tilly. Once it turned into Tilly standing on her their one's her own hands to find something to do, I figured this concept was burned out. Just send Tilly back to wherever people like that wait for jobs.
Why do you go through all the pronouns and decide on the wrong one? Do you also decidedly use wrong pronouns in real life as a statement?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: snufflebottoms on 04 Dec 2017, 04:54
Looks like the pronoun war is going to continue - already see a few posts using her. *grabs popcorn*
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Timemaster on 04 Dec 2017, 05:07
Tucson, Tucumcari, Tehachapi, Tonopah...
Tilapia, Tepaché, Tetch, Titch...
Tarpon, Trigger, Tokamak, Tarantula...

Tagliatelle, Turtle, Tyranosaurus, Terminator, Thesaurus, Telephone, Trepan...

Tinytoon, Tiamat, Telecaster, Teetotaler, Tacobell, Titanomachy...
Tedious, Tepid, Terrible, Tilled

Thrilly from Thriller. They certainly give some people thrills here.  :-D

TM
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 04 Dec 2017, 05:18
Thrilly from Thriller. They certainly give some people thrills here.  :-D

"Ahh, this is obviously be some strange usage of the word 'thrills', that I wasn't previously aware of."
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: pwhodges on 04 Dec 2017, 05:22
Looks like the pronoun war is going to continue - already see a few posts using her. *grabs popcorn*

Global Moderator Comment Stupidity or carelessness we try to treat gently, but wars we pounce on...
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: jwhouk on 04 Dec 2017, 05:28
Tillmeister, Tilodora, Til the night wind blows, Til There Was You...

Sent from my NXA8QC116 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Neko_Ali on 04 Dec 2017, 06:18
Looks like the pronoun war is going to continue - already see a few posts using her. *grabs popcorn*

Global Moderator Comment Stupidity or carelessness we try to treat gently, but wars we pounce on...

Yes, I noticed the mistake in my post this morning and went back to change it.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Case on 04 Dec 2017, 07:24
IIRC, the Operative admits that what he does is evil, and that he's a monster.

Yup, but he does evil to achieve good, to "make all of them Better Worlds" (Admittedly, he's also a few sandwiches short of a picnic, but it's the principle that counts ...  :-D)

Right...but if he recognizes he does evil, he's not amoral. He has a moral sense, and is concerned with the rightness of his actions.

Abstract: I never claimed it to be a philosophy designed to withstand scrutiny for very long ... (with The Operative, it mostly doesn't have to :-D).

(click to show/hide)

Part of my liking the character stems from his 'affirming' my deep and abiding distrust of utilitarian ethics, which is in turn due to its lack of inherent safeguards against abuse - try to construct a utilitarian critique of Fascism, for example, and compare the result to the humanitarian version (Basically: "Because human dignity, QED"). IMO, there's few things scarier than a righteous person.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: OldGoat on 04 Dec 2017, 10:08
I gave Tillie (I'll call them that, but their mother still yells, "Matilda Birch!" if they're in trouble) a 7. 

Criminy, people, it's Jeph's universe.  He gets to write it as he sees fit.  A few of us seem to be loosing sight of that.

Tucson, Tucumcari, Tehachapi, Tonopah...
If you give me weed, whites, and wine I'll probably end up in the emergency room.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: pwhodges on 04 Dec 2017, 11:49
Tillie

Close...
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: OldGoat on 04 Dec 2017, 11:57
Tillie

Close...
Forgive me.  The Matilda I know spells the diminutive form of her Christian name "Tillie," so that's how I think of it.  I've known her much longer than I have Ms Birch.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Welu on 04 Dec 2017, 12:20
I voted #6, but I should have voted #7 or #5...or even #1. I don't want Jeph to try harder with Tilly. Once it turned into Tilly standing on her their one's her own hands to find something to do, I figured this concept was burned out. Just send Tilly back to wherever people like that wait for jobs.

One pronoun at a time is enough for most people. Errors can be understood and forgiven. Cycling through, crossing out and seemingly intentionally landing on the incorrect one is just antagonistic.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: mercykills on 04 Dec 2017, 13:31
Looks like the pronoun war is going to continue - already see a few posts using her. *grabs popcorn*

Yeeesh. Glad I saw this. Though I didn't misstep in my earlier post, I did forget Tilly's preferred pronouns. That would have been mortifying.  :-(

Wishing someone would drop off the face of the earth comic is no reason to disrespect them in such a way.

I voted #6, but I should have voted #7 or #5...or even #1. I don't want Jeph to try harder with Tilly. Once it turned into Tilly standing on her their one's her own hands to find something to do, I figured this concept was burned out. Just send Tilly back to wherever people like that wait for jobs.

One pronoun at a time is enough for most people. Errors can be understood and forgiven. Cycling through, crossing out and seemingly intentionally landing on the incorrect one is just antagonistic.

Ugh, right? I guess we should just be glad they didn't include the word "it". Although I get the feeling they would have if they thought it wouldn't result in an immediate ban. >.>
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 04 Dec 2017, 13:34
Tilly is a window into the plans of Beatrice for Hannelore's future.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 04 Dec 2017, 14:50
When first introduced, I thought Tilly had the potential to do interesting things. 'Dangerous', I said. (Because of super research skillz.) But I have been disappointed.

Now let's erase that board and get the Specials back up!

Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: shanejayell on 04 Dec 2017, 15:38
Tilly has potential, so let's see how it goes.

I DO think its time to move on to something else tho.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: DaiJB on 04 Dec 2017, 16:00
Looks like the pronoun war is going to continue - already see a few posts using her. *grabs popcorn*

Excuse me - I must be out of the loop here - I've seen references to 'pronouns' and 'pronoun wars' - what's that about? Is it something to do with Tilly's (to me) obscure statement about 'they/them pronouns'?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Tova on 04 Dec 2017, 16:01
I wonder if Jeph has glanced at the forums recently, because a lot of the feedback I'm seeing on Patreon is very positive. Their opinion is not unanimous of course, but many people there love Tilly.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: pwhodges on 04 Dec 2017, 16:05
Excuse me - I must be out of the loop here - I've seen references to 'pronouns' and 'pronoun wars' - what's that about? Is it something to do with Tilly's (to me) obscure statement about 'they/them pronouns'?

There is and has been no pronoun war.  There has been some discussion of the use of non-gendered pronouns, most of which has been transferred to a thread that was already discussing the same thing (https://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,33936.0.html), which should remove the obscurity of the remark.

There has been some dissension over the matter of deliberately getting Tilly's name wrong, but that has passed.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: mercykills on 04 Dec 2017, 16:17
I wonder if Jeph has glanced at the forums recently, because a lot of the feedback I'm seeing on Patreon is very positive. Their opinion is not unanimous of course, but many people there love Tilly.

Soooo, Patreon is to blame for this nonsense!?! I knew that platform would be the downfall of humanity.

I KNEW!!!!

 :laugh:
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Tova on 04 Dec 2017, 16:38
MUAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA  :evil:
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: DaiJB on 04 Dec 2017, 16:48
Excuse me - I must be out of the loop here - I've seen references to 'pronouns' and 'pronoun wars' - what's that about? Is it something to do with Tilly's (to me) obscure statement about 'they/them pronouns'?

There is and has been no pronoun war.  There has been some discussion of the use of non-gendered pronouns, most of which has been transferred to a thread that was already discussing the same thing (https://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,33936.0.html), which should remove the obscurity of the remark.

There has been some dissension over the matter of deliberately getting Tilly's name wrong, but that has passed.

Ah, fair enough. It seems that here in Australia, such non-gendered pronoun usage is rare to the point of undetectable -   
that includes at work, talking to kids, shopping, in my business dealings, anywhere...  :oops:
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: dutchrvl on 04 Dec 2017, 17:00
Excuse me - I must be out of the loop here - I've seen references to 'pronouns' and 'pronoun wars' - what's that about? Is it something to do with Tilly's (to me) obscure statement about 'they/them pronouns'?

There is and has been no pronoun war.  There has been some discussion of the use of non-gendered pronouns, most of which has been transferred to a thread that was already discussing the same thing (https://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,33936.0.html), which should remove the obscurity of the remark.

There has been some dissension over the matter of deliberately getting Tilly's name wrong, but that has passed.

Ah, fair enough. It seems that here in Australia, such non-gendered pronoun usage is rare to the point of undetectable -   
that includes at work, talking to kids, shopping, in my business dealings, anywhere...  :oops:

Such usage is very rare pretty much everywhere afaik, including in the US.
I have to admit that, while I understand and respect the use of they/them pronouns and will try to use those pronouns consistently, it still feels very unnatural (to me at least) to use them for singular human beings. So, I apologize in advance if I inadvertently use the incorrect pronoun in future posts.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: zzyzx on 04 Dec 2017, 17:40
I wonder if Jeph has glanced at the forums recently, because a lot of the feedback I'm seeing on Patreon is very positive. Their opinion is not unanimous of course, but many people there love Tilly.

Do they explain why they love Tilly?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Tova on 04 Dec 2017, 18:48
Not really. Not that I've noticed anyway. I guess they just find Tilly cute and amusing? I don't think they are thinking too hard about it.

Anathema, I know.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: badbum61 on 04 Dec 2017, 19:03
Tucson, Tucumcari, Tehachapi, Tonopah...
Tilapia, Tepaché, Tetch, Titch...
Tarpon, Trigger, Tokamak, Tarantula...

Tagliatelle, Turtle, Tyranosaurus, Terminator, Thesaurus, Telephone, Trepan...

Tinytoon, Tiamat, Telecaster, Teetotaler, Tacobell, Titanomachy...
Tedious, Tepid, Terrible, Tilled

Tila Tequila?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 04 Dec 2017, 19:25
Ewww, no.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Shjade on 04 Dec 2017, 19:35
(click to show/hide)

I suppose that comes down to whether you think he's sincere in trying to confer honor and nobility on the act of suicide for the good of the many, or if he was being sarcastic about it to rub salt in the proverbial wound because he just really wanted to kill the guy.

I got the impression it was option #1, myself.

There's also the heavily implied notion that Shepherd Book is an ex-Operative, and that the Operative is likely going to go down a similar route himself post-conclusion, which would require a pretty drastic perspective shift from amorality compared to the much smaller one of misguided utilitarianism. Not impossible, but seems less likely.

But hey, it's all fiction, so whatevs. :D
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: OldGoat on 04 Dec 2017, 19:52
Comic's up! 

Hannelore is unquestionably a mammal.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Shjade on 04 Dec 2017, 20:46
I like "damn-elore" more than I should.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Tova on 04 Dec 2017, 20:59
Manners.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Smallest on 04 Dec 2017, 21:01
The kind of sudden cut to evening makes me kind of feel like either there's going to be something that happens and gives Tilly some ground for keeping their job, or that Beatrice* is going to pull something so that Hannelore will see why she needs a personal assistant.

*Someone or someones will probably say this is something Tilly would/will do, but I preemptively disagree.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: MightionNY on 04 Dec 2017, 21:22
Hmmm... has Winslow been working out?  He's sitting on the couch with Hanners and is seeing her pretty much eye-to-eye, but in 3543 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3543) he's almost a full head shorter than Hanners when standing.  Makes me wonder if the Regular Boy Deluxe features a variable-length spine with automatic self-adjusting spacers. :D
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Penquin47 on 04 Dec 2017, 21:35
Ma'am-elore.  I LIKE WINSLOW.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Gyrre on 04 Dec 2017, 21:43
"Ma'am-elore"? Great, now I want to call her 'Elora' for some reason.

EDIT: For anyone curious; Elora Galanedel, a circle of the moon druid elven princess from Highrollers (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=so1zVyGd5zk)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: brasca on 04 Dec 2017, 22:19
The kind of sudden cut to evening makes me kind of feel like either there's going to be something that happens and gives Tilly some ground for keeping their job, or that Beatrice* is going to pull something so that Hannelore will see why she needs a personal assistant.

*Someone or someones will probably say this is something Tilly would/will do, but I preemptively disagree.

Maybe Juicy will be too loud and Hannelore will put Tilly’s negotiating skills to the test.  If she can takeover her lease then the job is hers.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: BenRG on 04 Dec 2017, 23:14
There's not really much to say about today's strip. It's a bridge with a silly joke at the end. I'm just glad that Jeph hasn't decided to keep pushing Tilly into our face for the rest of the first day.

We are reminded of something important though, something that I think everyone can profitably apply to real life: If someone is annoyed about someone or something, making a cute joke about it might not have the outcome that you hoped it would! What Hannelore needs right now is a cup of her calming tea, not Winslow attempting to be smart or cute; she has Faye and Claire for that!
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Cornelius on 04 Dec 2017, 23:20
(click to show/hide)
There's also the heavily implied notion that Shepherd Book is an ex-Operative, and that the Operative is likely going to go down a similar route himself post-conclusion, which would require a pretty drastic perspective shift from amorality compared to the much smaller one of misguided utilitarianism. Not impossible, but seems less likely.

But hey, it's all fiction, so whatevs. :D

The comics, that fill in some of the story give Shepherd Books back story.
(click to show/hide)

Back on topic, negotiating Juicy's departure would be a great service to Hanners. Let's see how it plays out.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: gopher on 04 Dec 2017, 23:48
I wonder if Jeph has glanced at the forums recently, because a lot of the feedback I'm seeing on Patreon is very positive. Their opinion is not unanimous of course, but many people there love Tilly.

Do they explain why they love Tilly?
Patrons,  almost by definition, have swallowed the JJ koolaid.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: gopher on 04 Dec 2017, 23:49
Winslow, funnier in one word than Tilly managed in a month.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Tova on 05 Dec 2017, 00:07
I wonder if Jeph has glanced at the forums recently, because a lot of the feedback I'm seeing on Patreon is very positive. Their opinion is not unanimous of course, but many people there love Tilly.

Do they explain why they love Tilly?
Patrons,  almost by definition, have swallowed the JJ koolaid.

I did mention that their opinion isn't unanimous. So no, that's nonsense.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Smallest on 05 Dec 2017, 00:22
The kind of sudden cut to evening makes me kind of feel like either there's going to be something that happens and gives Tilly some ground for keeping their job, or that Beatrice* is going to pull something so that Hannelore will see why she needs a personal assistant.

*Someone or someones will probably say this is something Tilly would/will do, but I preemptively disagree.

Maybe Juicy will be too loud and Hannelore will put Tilly’s negotiating skills to the test.  If she can takeover her lease then the job is hers.

If there is any notion of Hannelore turning into her mother, I want it to be via her Juicy rivalry.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: gopher on 05 Dec 2017, 00:50
I wonder if Jeph has glanced at the forums recently, because a lot of the feedback I'm seeing on Patreon is very positive. Their opinion is not unanimous of course, but many people there love Tilly.

Do they explain why they love Tilly?
Patrons,  almost by definition, have swallowed the JJ koolaid.

I did mention that their opinion isn't unanimous. So no, that's nonsense.

Good to know being as Admin allows you to read minds.

IICIH here. Tova is not an administrator. This wasn't up to community standards, PM next
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: hedgie on 05 Dec 2017, 01:41
Patrons,  almost by definition, have swallowed the JJ koolaid.

I just enjoy the comic and enjoy the fora.  I also refuse to turn off my adblocker for any reason, so I figure tossing artists a little bit of money is only fair.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: KevxD on 05 Dec 2017, 01:56
I voted 4. Tilly doesn't inspire any strong emotion in me, I don't like her, I don't hate her, she's just a bit boring. I'll be happy when this arc moves along.

On a separate note, I found today's comic quite confusing grammatically. The they/them pronoun usage is going to take some getting used to. 
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Cornelius on 05 Dec 2017, 02:02
On the other hand, they do have the insistence, and energy, to warrant the plural, quite aside from anything else.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 05 Dec 2017, 03:13

SPATHE-HAM-ELORE !

(Spam-elore?)

Qualm: "tilly 4 lyfe"  ???
(SHUDDER!)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Tova on 05 Dec 2017, 03:32
Good to know being as Admin allows you to read minds.

Sorry, can't read yours.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Zebediah on 05 Dec 2017, 03:51
Hmmm... has Winslow been working out?  He's sitting on the couch with Hanners and is seeing her pretty much eye-to-eye, but in 3543 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3543) he's almost a full head shorter than Hanners when standing.  Makes me wonder if the Regular Boy Deluxe features a variable-length spine with automatic self-adjusting spacers. :D

Winslow is sitting up straight. Hannelore isn’t.

Of course robots have excellent posture!
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: dutchrvl on 05 Dec 2017, 05:48
I wonder if Jeph has glanced at the forums recently, because a lot of the feedback I'm seeing on Patreon is very positive. Their opinion is not unanimous of course, but many people there love Tilly.

Do they explain why they love Tilly?
Patrons,  almost by definition, have swallowed the JJ koolaid.

Pardon my language, but that is, in my opinion of course, absolute BS (or my personal favorite, horse-S).
I am not a die-hard JJ fan or agree with every choice he makes in his art, but I do enjoy his (and several other) webcomics.
Personally I think it is no more than fair to compensate somebody for providing me with a product I enjoy on a regular basis. Plus, let's not forget that the minimum level of $1 per month is a laughable amount considering you get about 20 comics for that.

I have no problem giving up 1 chain-provided hot beverage per month in order to support several webauthors, and I am sure there are plenty of others like me. Nothing to do with drinking an author's 'koolaid'.

Then again, I am also one of those odd people that sometimes donates a small amount for freeware, Wikipedia, or other services that technically I wouldn't have to pay for. Shocker, I know. :-)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Zebediah on 05 Dec 2017, 07:04
I have to say that Hannelore looks completely exhausted after having to deal with Tilly for a day. That is the exact opposite of how a personal assistant is supposed to make you feel. She’s spending more time and energy managing Tilly than Tilly is saving her.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: shanejayell on 05 Dec 2017, 07:13
Hopefully next installment will be Bubbles & Faye related, or possibly Marten at work.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Cornelius on 05 Dec 2017, 07:33
I have to say that Hannelore looks completely exhausted after having to deal with Tilly for a day.

In all fairness, we have seen Hannelore come home from Coffee of Doom in a worse state than this.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: BenRG on 05 Dec 2017, 07:42
Yes but, in this case, nothing has exploded on her or caught fire. It just took one aggressive personality to do this to her, not a day of bad luck!
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Welu on 05 Dec 2017, 08:43
Patrons,  almost by definition, have swallowed the JJ koolaid.

Moderator Comment Very inappropriate. Each fan has valid opinion, patron or not. It's incredibly tasteless and insulting to compare Jeph to a mass murdering cult leader and other fans to the victims.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: BenRG on 05 Dec 2017, 09:02
Let's put this in a different way then: Patron comments are not automatically a representative subset of the fandom.

Because Patron users commenting on QC will generally be those satisfied with and therefore donating towards Jeph's work, they would be disproportionately be those who liked the direction that the strip is currently going in and the characters upon which Jeph is focussing. Asking those voluntarily donating to a project if they are satisfied with it will always be more likely to be positive than negative.

I hope that Jeph is also reading his Twitter and Tumblr responses, which are less likely to be tilted towards being 'happy customers'.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Shjade on 05 Dec 2017, 09:23
Good to know being as Admin allows you to read minds.

- said by the person who just claimed to know the minds of an entire Patreon audience.

Cool story, bro.

Sidenote: being condescending about the paying audience of an artist whose work you continue to consume without joining said paying audience isn't a great look either.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 05 Dec 2017, 10:11
Global Moderator Comment No flame wars please. The mod team will take care of the situation.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: OldGoat on 05 Dec 2017, 10:49
On a separate note, I found today's comic quite confusing grammatically. The they/them pronoun usage is going to take some getting used to.
As noted before, I've used "they" in its various forms for a neuter third person singular pronoun in writing since about 1988, but I've never had my nose rubbed in just how damn confusing it is until this story arc.  I realize now that there's a reason speakers and listeners wanted singulars and plurals to begin with.

I haven't settle on a preference for one of the proposed alternatives, but I'll get there. 

But it won't be "mim."  Too much Disney baggage there.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/thedescendants/images/2/26/Rs_560x415-140514145605-1024.Madam-Mim-The-Sword-And-The-Stone-Disney-Villains.jl.051414.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/350?cb=20160701020210)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Marco on 05 Dec 2017, 11:21

No flame wars please. The mod team will take care of the situation.


Thanks, Admin. With all this Youtube-comment-style arguing, I was getting almost like this: http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2683 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2683)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Thrudd on 05 Dec 2017, 11:53
Winslow is sitting up straight. Hannelore isn’t.
Of course robots have excellent posture!
Then there is May .....  :roll:
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: OldGoat on 05 Dec 2017, 11:58
Winslow is sitting up straight. Hannelore isn’t.
Of course robots have excellent posture!
Then there is May .....  :roll:
Seriously.  There HAS to be someone to tell a humanoid AI, "Stand up straight!  Don't slouich like that!"

Another mystery of AI culture yet to be revealed.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Pilchard123 on 05 Dec 2017, 11:58
Oh dear. Is this going to be another Dorapocalypse? Another Cataclairsm? What do we call it?

Armageddthem?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Storel on 05 Dec 2017, 12:00
Hmmm... has Winslow been working out?  He's sitting on the couch with Hanners and is seeing her pretty much eye-to-eye, but in 3543 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3543) he's almost a full head shorter than Hanners when standing.  Makes me wonder if the Regular Boy Deluxe features a variable-length spine with automatic self-adjusting spacers. :D

Winslow is sitting up straight. Hannelore isn’t.

Of course robots have excellent posture!

Maybe Winslow just has short legs.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Zebediah on 05 Dec 2017, 12:11
Oh dear. Is this going to be another Dorapocalypse? Another Cataclairsm? What do we call it?

Armageddthem?
Oh, it’s hardly reached that level yet. So far this hasn’t even topped the Great Meat Loaf War of February 2016.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: mof920 on 05 Dec 2017, 14:12
I don't hate Tilly, but I don't love her either. The reason I'm rather infatuated with the idea of Tilly coming around is because it might force or inspire Hanners into doing more with the Chatham corporations. Something I've been wanting to happen since we were first introduced Beatrice.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Welu on 05 Dec 2017, 14:19
Them, please and thank you.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: zzyzx on 05 Dec 2017, 14:50
Not really. Not that I've noticed anyway. I guess they just find Tilly cute and amusing? I don't think they are thinking too hard about it.

Anathema, I know.

I wasn't expecting a thesis as much as "It was funny/cool/amazing when Tilly did
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Tova on 05 Dec 2017, 15:18
Let's put this in a different way then: Patron comments are not automatically a representative subset of the fandom.

Well, I mean, yes. Quite true.

The whole reason I brought up Patreon in the first place was not to claim that they somehow should be considered to be a true representation of how QC readers were responding. It was simply to point out that these forums are not a representative subset of the fandom. For the same reason that Patreon is not - very simply, they are both self-selecting samples. As I'm sure you're aware, self-selection will always introduce a bias.

I went back to #3625 on Patreon, and now I'm going to quote a couple of examples for zzyzx's benefit (so hard not to type xyzzy).

"I want Tilly in my life so bad, for real. I've spent this whole arc wishing I could afford a Tilly. With Tilly's exact intense, earnest personality. They could live with me. For real. "

Someone is a fan of earnestness, I guess. :)

Okay, a slightly calmer example.

"Panel 4 is excellent and I love it."

That was referring to the hand-stand panel. I'm sure there are others - possibly as many reasons as there are commenters.

Here's a counter-example, just for gopher.

"So now the unwanted assistant is further weaseling unbidden into Hannelore's life? Still creepy."

Bottom line: don't be so quick to airily dismiss the opinions of an entire community. Especially the community whose existence helps to ensure that you can continue to read and discuss the very comic we're all enjoying.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Gyrre on 05 Dec 2017, 17:25
On a separate note, I found today's comic quite confusing grammatically. The they/them pronoun usage is going to take some getting used to.
As noted before, I've used "they" in its various forms for a neuter third person singular pronoun in writing since about 1988, but I've never had my nose rubbed in just how damn confusing it is until this story arc.  I realize now that there's a reason speakers and listeners wanted singulars and plurals to begin with.

I haven't settle on a preference for one of the proposed alternatives, but I'll get there. 

But it won't be "mim."  Too much Disney baggage there.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/thedescendants/images/2/26/Rs_560x415-140514145605-1024.Madam-Mim-The-Sword-And-The-Stone-Disney-Villains.jl.051414.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/350?cb=20160701020210)
Futurama writers proposed 'shkle' and 'shkler' in Beast With a Billion Backs, but that's a bit difficult to say. How about nominative 'seh' and possesive 'mir' (sort of rhyming with 'her')?

EDIT: forgot to onclude the nominative.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 05 Dec 2017, 19:06
I find trying to discuss a singular character with plural pronouns to be incredibly awkward. Instead of 'she does' is it supposed to be 'they does'? Or is it 'they do'? (As if Tilly has suddenly grown a second head.)

I am tempted to deny Tilly pronouns altogether. Just 'Tilly' whenever a pronoun might appear in normal English.
"Tilly has no idea what Tilly is supposed to do in the situation that Tilly has found Tilly in."

One would get tired of 'Tilly' very quickly.
..... (um, what?)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Smallest on 05 Dec 2017, 19:27
I find trying to discuss a singular character with plural pronouns to be incredibly awkward. Instead of 'she does' is it supposed to be 'they does'? Or is it 'they do'? (As if Tilly has suddenly grown a second head.)

I am tempted to deny Tilly pronouns altogether. Just 'Tilly' whenever a pronoun might appear in normal English.
"Tilly has no idea what Tilly is supposed to do in the situation that Tilly has found Tilly in."

One would get tired of 'Tilly' very quickly.
..... (um, what?)

"They do." You use the normal conjugation for 'they.'
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Smallest on 05 Dec 2017, 19:41
I'm just going to add onto all the notes re: language here.

Ugh, right? I guess we should just be glad they didn't include the word "it". Although I get the feeling they would have if they thought it wouldn't result in an immediate ban. >.>

[I think/hope I cut this quote down correctly and left the right attribution. -S]

Using the above quote as an example, people use singular 'they' all the time without confusing anyone. And it doesn't just go back to the 80s as OldGoat mentions; according to "Families in Transition," from Central Toronto Youth Services,* it ('they') has been in use as a gender neutral pronoun for at least 600 years.

I get that this use of 'they' is new to a lot of people here, but 'they' is being used in a completely valid way, both with regards to modern gender terminology and historical use. I understand slipping up (I did in my first post in this thread, but caught it really quick), but there's no reason to keep treating it as weird and difficult.

*normally I'd find a more specific note on the usage but I literally had this next to me
**this isn't directed at any one person, I just reread this thread and winced too many times to not say something
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 05 Dec 2017, 20:16

I am tempted to deny Tilly pronouns altogether. Just 'Tilly' whenever a pronoun might appear in normal English.
"Tilly has no idea what Tilly is supposed to do in the situation that Tilly has found Tilly in."

One would get tired of 'Tilly' very quickly.
..... (um, what?)

See, denying Tilly pronouns would be almost as bad as using the wrong ones. They have asked that characters in the comic to use They/Them. We should endeavour to do the same. Yes, it might be awkward and difficult changing over, but it is still the right thing to do.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: War Sparrow on 05 Dec 2017, 20:40
Tilly does not skip leg day. I wonder what Dad does.
Plot Twist: Dad was a Beatrice pool boy in years past. Tilly is her illegitimate child, and Hannelore's half sibling. Unwilling to acknowledge the child, Beatrice still feels a family duty and gives them a job. If Hannelore doesn't pan out, she will fully acknowledge Tilly and make them the Chatham heiress.

Like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives.
(No, you're procrastinating on homework!)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Tova on 05 Dec 2017, 20:52
I find trying to discuss a singular character with plural pronouns to be incredibly awkward. Instead of 'she does' is it supposed to be 'they does'? Or is it 'they do'? (As if Tilly has suddenly grown a second head.)

It's a bit awkward for all many of us, but if we persevere with it, we'll get used to it. This isn't widely accepted yet, and so the rules are still in flux.

"Tilly has no idea what Tilly is supposed to do in the situation that Tilly has found Tilly in."

Try, for example:

"Tilly has no idea what they're supposed to do in the situation that they've found themself in."

Not sure if people are going to like "themself" as opposed to "themselves," but it's worth trying such things to see if the become comfortable through repeated exposure.

I'm sure there was a time when use of the pronoun "you" in the singular case (in place of "thou") was weird for some people as well. But we don't think twice about it now. I suppose that this will be the same, eventually.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Penquin47 on 05 Dec 2017, 20:58
For NaNo last year, I wrote a main character with they/them pronouns.  I found "themself" to work just fine for them, and aside from the occasional slip of using her instead of them, I got used to it quickly.  What was a lot harder?  Coming up with gender-neutral terms for things like aunt/uncle, niece/nephew, etc where English doesn't have a good gender-neutral term already (like sibling instead of brother/sister).

Spellcheck did *not* like themself, but spellcheck can get over itself. :D
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Gyrre on 05 Dec 2017, 21:00
Great. Jeph found a hook. Now I want to know who Tilly's dad is.

Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: ANeM on 05 Dec 2017, 21:05
On a separate note, I found today's comic quite confusing grammatically. The they/them pronoun usage is going to take some getting used to.

I think grammatically it would have worked better to have Hanner's say "Tilly" in panel 2, but I think there was a conscious effort by Jeph to show both Hanners and Winslow using the proper pronouns.

--------

As for today's comic (3628) I can see some possible bonding between Hannelore and Tilly over their overbearing business focused parents.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: chaospersonified on 05 Dec 2017, 21:14
Umm, wait, so Tilly’s father is pressuring her to gather corporate intelligence from Hanners. This suggests that Tilly is, like Hanners, the heir to a corporate mastermind whose ethics may be questionable. At the very least, I predict bonding between Hanners and Tilly on this account. Potentially, Beatrice realizes what’s happening and respects Brontdyn so much for his brash attempt that a future merger happens, potentially with a fun dynamic between Beatrice’s evil plotting and Brontdyn’s attempt to turn her towards truly legitimate business dealings.

I am reading way too much into this, I expect, but it’s fun.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 05 Dec 2017, 21:19
I think its more that Tilly's dad is just doing some dad-humour rather than actual corporate espionage.

Like "Oh hey, you're working at the bank? Don't suppose you could slip a couple of hundred into my account? Haha" or "New job working on the stock exchange? Hey maybe you could get me some insider information."
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Tova on 05 Dec 2017, 21:54
Edit:  This is a response to a now-deleted comment. So feel free to skip. :)

I put it to you that it is perfectly possible to produce clear writing without having to resort to referring to someone using gendered pronouns against that person's express wishes. Particularly in your case, as you clearly have a strong grasp of English grammar. I suggest that you do consider this carefully.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 05 Dec 2017, 22:05
I voted #6, but I should have voted #7 or #5...or even #1. I don't want Jeph to try harder with Tilly. Once it turned into Tilly standing on her their one's her own hands to find something to do, I figured this concept was burned out. Just send Tilly back to wherever people like that wait for jobs.
Why do you go through all the pronouns and decide on the wrong one? Do you also decidedly use wrong pronouns in real life as a statement?
<snip>

I hope to god you never talk to real people face to face. Because all I have read from you is some of the most condescending claptrap it has ever been my misfortune to read on this forum.

I really don’t care how you justify yourself, the fact is that it’s not for you to decide how someone should be presented, be it text or speech, be they fictional or real. When someone says that they would like you to use certain pronouns when talking to them or about them, have the common decency to respect their wishes. That’s all it is, common decency, a trait that has been decidingly lacking from certain corners of the forum the last couple of weeks. So it’s an adjustment, get over it and realize that languages are not set in stone but are instead constantly evolving, as are societal norms.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: foolsguinea on 05 Dec 2017, 22:10
I put it to you that it is perfectly possible to produce clear writing without having to resort to referring to someone using gendered pronouns against that person's express wishes. Particularly in your case, as you clearly have a strong grasp of English grammar. I suggest that you do consider this carefully.
Yeah, I deleted my explanation, because I knew it would just be interpreted as a right-wing rant.

Look, you have the ability to ask that you be referred to by whatever pronouns you want, and literally everyone in the world has the ability to say, 'Yeah, no, I'm not doing that.' You can call these abilities 'rights,' if you like.

I really came on the forum today to make a completely different joke, and now I don't care anymore.
_

Edit: You know what? I'm sorry if I'm being a butt.

I was never nuts about neologisms for non-binary pronouns, which have yet to be standardized. And singular 'they' sounded like a workable solution for some people. I have recently come to realize that singular 'they' is not as elegant a solution as it sounded. It is really confusing in writing, and personally I'm giving up on it. Time to look into 'ze' pronouns I guess.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Tova on 05 Dec 2017, 22:31
Did my comment suggest that I had interpreted yours as a right wing rant? That's surprising coming from an advocate of clear writing, because that was far from my mind. I thought my post was really quite clear.

I'll be clearer still, then. Speak clearly. Be nice. These are compatible requests.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 05 Dec 2017, 22:45
Global Moderator Comment Getting concerned about the change in tone the last few days.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Timemaster on 05 Dec 2017, 22:56
Yay, more Tilly.  8-)
I was a little afraid that Jeph would skip to another character and deny us the events of day two. (Or spare, as many people here would surely say.)
I think their legs are a little bit thicker than in the last strips. Maybe water after a long day mostly spent standing? Her pants must be really tight then. Getting your legs up on the bed is the right thing to do here, Tilly.
And they phone with their dad. I love that. I'm a single-raising dad, maybe theirs is too. And that stupid dad-joke could have been by me, too.

I would love to have a PA like Tilly in my life.
Well, at least for a few days.
And if I don't have to pay for them.
And if they don't mess up my life too much.
And don't trample on my nerves.
And of those of my daghter.
And don't follow me to my work and mess around there, too.

Well, ok. Maybe no Tilly in my life is a better idea.
But still I like this character a lot. They taught me about new personal pronouns in english and pushed Hanners a bit out of her nutshell-ish comfort zone. I' constantly pushed out of mine in real life, so I see nothing bad in this.

Jeph has invested so much time and efford in Tilly, I really think theiy're here to stay. Which is very good IMO. The comic has been stumbling around for some time and had no real focus that interested me. The whole story of Brun didn't grab me at all and Winslows new body was nice, but that's all. Nice. I must admit, that I've lost much of my interest in QC (and this forum) lately.
But here is a new character with distinctive traits and a challenging personality. And now I'm hooked again. Tilly does not only mess up Hanners life, they also mess up this forum here. I must say, that I haven't read such a controversial discussion here for some time.

And we all need a litte controversy, don't we?
It brings up the best and worst in people.   :-D

Timemaster
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Shjade on 05 Dec 2017, 23:02
For a moment I thought Tilly might be related to a Beatrice-competitor, that Beatrice knew this, and got them out of the way of any potentially compromising information via sending them to Hannelore, who is distant from the company and therefore "safe."

Then I remembered if Beatrice thought there were a potential spy in her company she'd just shoot them into the sun.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Tova on 05 Dec 2017, 23:25
Dad joke in panel three.  :roll:
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: BenRG on 05 Dec 2017, 23:29
Okay, so I am more than a little interested on who 'daddy' is for Tilly. I have previously thought that Tilly might be an example of a Dilbert Principle promotion: Sending an incompetent employee to a position where they will cause the least damage because firing them outright would be too much fuss and bother. This strip suggests that it might be the case but due to the fact Tilly has problematic relations rather than just their lack of most obvious job skills in the PA field.

'Daddy' might be a competitor but he is also more likely an executive on ECI's board (I have also suggested this too). 'Corporate espionage' can also be internal as most large corporations have fratricidal internal politics worthy of a medieval royal court. There are factions, plots, counter-plots and attempts to suborn power to form what is effectively an independent personal empire within the organisation. Maybe he's hoping that Tilly can find some dirt that can weaken Beatrice's position and increase his own power in the company. However, I find it unlikely that Hannelore has any 'dirt' on Beatrice that isn't publicly-known anyway. I get the impression that the two have never spent enough time together to really get to know each other.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Cornelius on 05 Dec 2017, 23:36
For a moment I thought Tilly might be related to a Beatrice-competitor, that Beatrice knew this, and got them out of the way of any potentially compromising information via sending them to Hannelore, who is distant from the company and therefore "safe."

Then I remembered if Beatrice thought there were a potential spy in her company she'd just shoot them into the sun.

I wouldn't say Hannelore is necessarily safe. After all, she has audited the company's entire financial record. A competitor might find useful information in there. Not to mention that it would be a bad idea to have your potential heir influenced by the competition too much, especially if you're already concerned that they haven't got what it takes to take over.

I think it's nice to see how Tilly reacts to the events of the day. I like the hesitation in panel two, as it's very recognisable.

As to the pronoun concerns, I'd like to invite everyone with an opinion on the issue, to come and join us in Discuss.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: OldGoat on 05 Dec 2017, 23:50
Then I remembered if Beatrice thought there were a potential spy in her company she'd just shoot them into the sun.
Only after she'd concluded that there was no other use she could put the person to.  Shooting an opponent's agent into the sun, or even just shooting them, telegraphs that you've discovered their network.  Beatrice would want to keep them guessing.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: QuestionableIntentions on 06 Dec 2017, 00:10
Corporate espionage! There it is!
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Zog on 06 Dec 2017, 01:27
I find trying to discuss a singular character with plural pronouns to be incredibly awkward. Instead of 'she does' is it supposed to be 'they does'? Or is it 'they do'? (As if Tilly has suddenly grown a second head.)

It's a bit awkward for all many of us, but if we persevere with it, we'll get used to it. This isn't widely accepted yet, and so the rules are still in flux.

"Tilly has no idea what Tilly is supposed to do in the situation that Tilly has found Tilly in."

Try, for example:

"Tilly has no idea what they're supposed to do in the situation that they've found themself in."

Not sure if people are going to like "themself" as opposed to "themselves," but it's worth trying such things to see if the become comfortable through repeated exposure.

I'm sure there was a time when use of the pronoun "you" in the singular case (in place of "thou") was weird for some people as well. But we don't think twice about it now. I suppose that this will be the same, eventually.

My first exposures to this usage were in the hypothetical/unknown case' "What if someone does not like it" 'Well they will get used to it". If you look at it this way (while composing a sentence) it becomes much easier (for me anyway) to see how to use these pronouns in this way.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: JimC on 06 Dec 2017, 01:31
Bottom line: don't be so quick to airily dismiss the opinions of an entire community. Especially the community whose existence helps to ensure that you can continue to read and discuss the very comic we're all enjoying.
Its interesting, and maybe chilling to note the power of groupthink and isolated groups here. Here are two bodies of people, probably overlapping, and both of whom probably have fairly similar views on a lot of subjects, else they wouldn't enjoy the comic. But on a subject of no real importance at all - the behaviour of a fictional character whose personality is to date only outlined in the thinnest of ways - we have disparate views, apparently vehemently held, which seem to be tending to opposite extremes.

In many ways its a mirror of events in the wider world, and of course art should hold up a mirror to the wider world.

But I find it disturbing how recent society polarises itself so readily and so vehemently on so many topics, to the detriment of its own good, and this is such a good mirror of that.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Case on 06 Dec 2017, 01:32
Well, now I'm intrigued!

Umm, wait, so Tilly’s father is pressuring her to gather corporate intelligence from Hanners. This suggests that Tilly is, like Hanners, the heir to a corporate mastermind whose ethics may be questionable. At the very least, I predict bonding between Hanners and Tilly on this account. Potentially, Beatrice realizes what’s happening and respects Brontdyn so much for his brash attempt that a future merger happens, potentially with a fun dynamic between Beatrice’s evil plotting and Brontdyn’s attempt to turn her towards truly legitimate business dealings.

I am reading way too much into this, I expect, but it’s fun.

Nope, that's a) exactly my headcan(n)on and b) the purpose of this subforum.  8-)


"Tilly has no idea what they're supposed to do in the situation that they've found themself in."

Not sure if people are going to like "themself" as opposed to "themselves," but it's worth trying such things to see if the become comfortable through repeated exposure.

Foreign heathen here: "themself" -> singular, "themselves" - plural?

My brain keeps insisting they're interchangeable ...  :oops:
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: KevxD on 06 Dec 2017, 01:40
I'll admit my interest in Tilly has increased significantly after today's comic, there's potential in this arc yet.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: flondrix on 06 Dec 2017, 02:32
Umm, wait, so Tilly’s father is pressuring her to gather corporate intelligence from Hanners. This suggests that Tilly is, like Hanners, the heir to a corporate mastermind whose ethics may be questionable.

Far more likely that he is just a corporate lackey grasping for something, anything, that might help him get ahead in his dead-end job.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: flondrix on 06 Dec 2017, 02:54
Then I remembered if Beatrice thought there were a potential spy in her company she'd just shoot them into the sun.
Only after she'd concluded that there was no other use she could put the person to.  Shooting an opponent's agent into the sun, or even just shooting them, telegraphs that you've discovered their network.  Beatrice would want to keep them guessing.

Hah!  By making that agent a personal assistant to Hannelore, she has raised the oppositions hopes of gleaning useful information while in reality delivering nothing but confusion.  She could always give Hanners a call whenever she wanted Tilly to overhear some bit of misinformation.

Not that that is what I think is happening.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Case on 06 Dec 2017, 02:59
But I find it disturbing how recent society polarises itself so readily and so vehemently on so many topics, to the detriment of its own good, and this is such a good mirror of that.

Funny, my (Boomer) teachers used to tell us we were creepily disengaged and unsettlingly dispassionate about politics and society and all that stuff. Which usually elicited the "Unsettling Gen-Xer grin" or the "Whatever ..."

(https://attach.forum.ge/photo-122694.jpg)(http://s1.r29static.com//bin/entry/9a7/x,80/1370195/image.jpg)

Pendulum swinging back, I s'pose.  :laugh:
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 06 Dec 2017, 03:29

So, more Tilly...

And a solo strip, even...

yay.

(sigh)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Theinternetsurvivor on 06 Dec 2017, 04:13
I know someone might hate me for this, but Tilly is extra thicc
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: BenRG on 06 Dec 2017, 04:24
Let's put this in a different way then: Patron comments are not automatically a representative subset of the fandom.

Well, I mean, yes. Quite true.

The whole reason I brought up Patreon in the first place was not to claim that they somehow should be considered to be a true representation of how QC readers were responding. It was simply to point out that these forums are not a representative subset of the fandom. For the same reason that Patreon is not - very simply, they are both self-selecting samples. As I'm sure you're aware, self-selection will always introduce a bias.

Can you give me a reason why you think that this forum is a 'self-selecting' group that introduces bias? Unlike Patreon, there does not seem to be any obvious prerequisite criteria other than 'read QC once and noticed the link to the forums'.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: pwhodges on 06 Dec 2017, 04:31
Forum-minded folk are typically aware that there are other forums, and so can decide for themselves whether they prefer the atmosphere of this one or, say, reddit.  Even without that, they can see the forum and decide whether to join or not - so, self selection with a vengeance.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Technoir on 06 Dec 2017, 04:59
I dropped a #2 on the Tilly poll.   Super annoying and manipulative. 

Demonstrating enthusiasm and competence didn't work, so they pulled the "I'm a failure! WAAAAAH!" pathetic/sobstory trick on Hannelore.

 Don't like them.


Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: JimC on 06 Dec 2017, 05:03
so, self selection with a vengeance.
Not only that, but people who post actively on any given forum are a self selecting potentially unrepresentative subset of those who read it. How many people would say that the results of the poll above are a reasonable reflection of the general thread of posts about the character? Its something I noticed wth considerable amusement on another forum on an utterly different topic recently. A particularly vocal poster with a small coterie of followers posted a poll about a topic that he was frequently vehement about (and about which most posts were supportive from his coterie) - and the other self selecting subset of people who vote in forum polls massively disagreed with him!
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Case on 06 Dec 2017, 05:14
so, self selection with a vengeance.
Not only that, but people who post actively on any given forum are a self selecting potentially unrepresentative subset of those who read it. How many people would say that the results of the poll above are a reasonable reflection of the general thread of posts about the character? Its something I noticed wth considerable amusement on another forum on an utterly different topic recently. A particularly vocal poster with a small coterie of followers posted a poll about a topic that he was frequently vehement about (and about which most posts were supportive from his coterie) - and the other self selecting subset of people who vote in forum polls massively disagreed with him!

IIRC there's a study that estimates the ratio of active posters to lurkers on any given forum to be roughly 1/100.

I dropped a #2 on the Tilly poll.   Super annoying and manipulative. 

Demonstrating enthusiasm and competence didn't work, so they pulled the "I'm a failure! WAAAAAH!" pathetic/sobstory trick on Hannelore.

 Don't like them.

Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: dutchrvl on 06 Dec 2017, 05:28
Bottom line: don't be so quick to airily dismiss the opinions of an entire community. Especially the community whose existence helps to ensure that you can continue to read and discuss the very comic we're all enjoying.
But I find it disturbing how recent society polarises itself so readily and so vehemently on so many topics, to the detriment of its own good, and this is such a good mirror of that.

This extreme polarization on pretty much any topic is nowhere happening as badly as in the US though, undoubtedly a side effect of the fact that there are really only 2 parties (which I have always found a dubious system as a native Dutchman).
To be honest, US society is already in a (not so) civil war, and so far nobody is "winning" (maybe extreme conservative Christians and big corporations?) and everybody is losing.

Edit: edited as I realized I didn't even believe it myself to be true...
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: dutchrvl on 06 Dec 2017, 05:36
But I find it disturbing how recent society polarises itself so readily and so vehemently on so many topics, to the detriment of its own good, and this is such a good mirror of that.

Funny, my (Boomer) teachers used to tell us we were creepily disengaged and unsettlingly dispassionate about politics and society and all that stuff. Which usually elicited the "Unsettling Gen-Xer grin" or the "Whatever ..."

Pendulum swinging back, I s'pose.  :laugh:

However, being passionate and engaged is not the same as being polarizing and dismissive of any and all arguments the opposite party makes.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Case on 06 Dec 2017, 05:49
Bottom line: don't be so quick to airily dismiss the opinions of an entire community. Especially the community whose existence helps to ensure that you can continue to read and discuss the very comic we're all enjoying.
But I find it disturbing how recent society polarises itself so readily and so vehemently on so many topics, to the detriment of its own good, and this is such a good mirror of that.
This extreme polarization on pretty much any topic is nowhere happening as badly as in the US though, undoubtedly a side effect of the fact that there are really only 2 parties (which I have always found a dubious system as a native Dutchman).

That is also my impression, but my judgement is similarly burdened (and should therefore be taken with a grain truckload of salt) by also being a continental European ...

But I find it disturbing how recent society polarises itself so readily and so vehemently on so many topics, to the detriment of its own good, and this is such a good mirror of that.

Funny, my (Boomer) teachers used to tell us we were creepily disengaged and unsettlingly dispassionate about politics and society and all that stuff. Which usually elicited the "Unsettling Gen-Xer grin" or the "Whatever ..."

Pendulum swinging back, I s'pose.  :laugh:

However, being passionate and engaged is not the same as being polarizing and dismissive of any and all arguments the opposite party makes.

True dat. Then again, when in human history has the number of "passionate and engaged" people not been eclipsed by the number of enthusiastic hangers-on (or opponents) who confuse "passion & engagement" with being "polarizing and dismissive"?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: pwhodges on 06 Dec 2017, 06:06
Global Moderator Comment Hey guys, there's a reason we have a separate area called Discuss!, so let's keep away from non-QC-related politics here.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: WoaLG on 06 Dec 2017, 06:26
So... What kind of cereal do you think Steve likes most?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: dutchrvl on 06 Dec 2017, 06:28
Got it, I will refrain from non-QC stuff in this thread.

OT: since JJ has indicated (perhaps seriously?) he is playing the long game with Tilly and that he has written several upcoming weeks of comics already, I am wondering whether this whole month might be one long arc revolving around Tilly. Whether that eventually results in them becoming a main part of the cast or whether they will eventually disappear again, that remains to be seen...
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Thrudd on 06 Dec 2017, 06:59
I'll admit my interest in Tilly has increased significantly after today's comic, there's potential in this arc yet.
As has mine - it has taken a quantum leap to the positive.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: OldGoat on 06 Dec 2017, 07:29
So... What kind of cereal do you think Steve likes most?
Hmmm....some kind of flakes.

Although he is enough of a he-man to down an entire bowl of Post Grape Nuts.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: gopher on 06 Dec 2017, 07:34
So... What kind of cereal do you think Steve likes most?
Shredded Wheat, 3 at a time.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: BenRG on 06 Dec 2017, 07:39
So... What kind of cereal do you think Steve likes most?

This has actually been answered in canon. Steve saved a little promotional robot from a box of cereal and I think that this is his favourite brand (mostly because he received an unspecified reward from the AI's employer).
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: pwhodges on 06 Dec 2017, 08:30
Got it, I will refrain from non-QC stuff in this thread.

No need to go that far; one of the delights of this forum is how easily interesting unrelated conversations can spring from the comic.  It's just that we like to keep the contentious subjects like politics and religion in their own playpen over there -> (https://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/board,16.0.html)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: traroth on 06 Dec 2017, 08:40
I'm missing more and more my favorite characters. Bubbles, Faye, Sam, Emily, Momo. Hopefully none of them will disappear forever like Sven, Wil or PT410X...

At least, the current arc involves Hannelore and Winslow. I kind of like Winslow since he changed chassis. I really would like to know how he's doing in his new counselor role. Or maybe he wants a "spray" on his new body?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: TheBiscuit on 06 Dec 2017, 08:49
I will admit that I definitely wasn't expecting anything like this to happen with regards to Tilly. It does seem to open up some interesting possibilities. We don't yet know anything about their father, but presumably he might have been as much (if not more) of an influence on Tilly's personality as was Mrs. Ellicott-Chatham. It is now a somewhat interesting question to ask why they were given this particular role. Assistant to the heir of the company is a responsibility associated with a lot of trust,  even if that heir is somewhat wayward, in her mother's eyes...
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: flondrix on 06 Dec 2017, 09:04
Can you give me a reason why you think that this forum is a 'self-selecting' group that introduces bias? Unlike Patreon, there does not seem to be any obvious prerequisite criteria other than 'read QC once and noticed the link to the forums'.

I doubt there is anyone here who read QC once.  This forum consists of people who not only noticed the link to the forums, but felt compelled to click on it, read, weren't driven away by the nasty arguments, and felt compelled to comment.  And of course have the time to waste. 

I realizing this is changing, but I suspect it is still true that "normal" people are too busy working, socializing in meatspace, changing diapers, having sex, or whatever it is that normal people do, to devote much time to arguing about societal issues in the comments on a webcomic.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Cornelius on 06 Dec 2017, 09:09
I will admit that I definitely wasn't expecting anything like this to happen with regards to Tilly. It does seem to open up some interesting possibilities. We don't yet know anything about their father, but presumably he might have been as much (if not more) of an influence on Tilly's personality as was Mrs. Ellicott-Chatham. It is now a somewhat interesting question to ask why they were given this particular role. Assistant to the heir of the company is a responsibility associated with a lot of trust,  even if that heir is somewhat wayward, in her mother's eyes...
I'd say that, if the heir is even the least bit wayward, it's a fortiori a position of trust. But that's not quite compatible, I think, with Beatrice misremembering their name. It might be that she really does see a PA as just an accessory function, and So didn't mind much who Taffy, or something, was, as long as they have the right skill set.

For Tilly, however, it's a different picture. I think their vision of the function mast be a lot closer to ours, and that it's a momentous opportunity to them. I think that they're really a very junior position in the company, and that the perceived trust of the position might inform their eagerness, in part.

@flondrox: While I don't disagree with what you're saying, that was really the feel good comment I needed to round put my day.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: flondrix on 06 Dec 2017, 09:14
To be honest, US society is already in a (not so) civil war, and so far nobody is "winning" (maybe extreme conservative Christians and big corporations?) and everybody is losing.

I used to work for a guy who was also an SF writer.  Years ago he said something similar, that the extreme polarization is not benefiting either side of the culture war, so I asked him: "Thinking as an SF writer, who is benefiting from it?"

No matter who wins, we lose.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: flondrix on 06 Dec 2017, 09:21
I'm missing more and more my favorite characters. Bubbles, Faye, Sam, Emily, Momo. Hopefully none of them will disappear forever like Sven, Wil or PT410X...

At least, the current arc involves Hannelore and Winslow. I kind of like Winslow since he changed chassis. I really would like to know how he's doing in his new counselor role. Or maybe he wants a "spray" on his new body?

You know, if they wanted to, Anthro-PCs could go for full-out airbrushed artwork like those sword & sorcery tableaus you see on vans.  And many of them do not seem to be encumbered by good taste.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: ToodleLew on 06 Dec 2017, 09:50
I find trying to discuss a singular character with plural pronouns to be incredibly awkward. Instead of 'she does' is it supposed to be 'they does'? Or is it 'they do'? (As if Tilly has suddenly grown a second head.)

I am tempted to deny Tilly pronouns altogether. Just 'Tilly' whenever a pronoun might appear in normal English.
"Tilly has no idea what Tilly is supposed to do in the situation that Tilly has found Tilly in."


I hear dissonance when trying to use plural or collective pronouns for singular entities. Rather than deny Tilly pronouns, mentally, I substitute the indefinite pronoun "one" for Tilly's preferred they/them.[1]

"Tilly has no idea what one is supposed to do in the situation that one has found oneself in."

As for Tilly themself, I fail to see how they contribute anything meaningful to the strip, yet. I would much rather see something of Marten for a while.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Case on 06 Dec 2017, 09:55
Can you give me a reason why you think that this forum is a 'self-selecting' group that introduces bias? Unlike Patreon, there does not seem to be any obvious prerequisite criteria other than 'read QC once and noticed the link to the forums'.

I doubt there is anyone here who read QC once.  This forum consists of people who not only noticed the link to the forums, but felt compelled to click on it, read, weren't driven away by the nasty arguments, and felt compelled to comment.  And of course have the time to waste. 

Uhmmmh - I googled "questionable content, forum" for the link. Does that count?  :-\

Hey, guys? What's with the grim faces and the pitchforks? Guys? Heeeeeyyy?

I hear dissonance when trying to use plural or collective pronouns for singular entities. Rather than deny Tilly pronouns, mentally, I substitute the indefinite pronoun "one" for Tilly's preferred they/them.[1]

Yeah, it takes a bit getting used to. Otoh, my native language uses the exact same word for the female third person singular, the second third person plural and the formal direct address, and I never noticed until someone pointed it out recently.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: TheBiscuit on 06 Dec 2017, 10:08
I find trying to discuss a singular character with plural pronouns to be incredibly awkward. Instead of 'she does' is it supposed to be 'they does'? Or is it 'they do'? (As if Tilly has suddenly grown a second head.)
I had the same thought while writing my last post. I had to use 'they were' instead of 's/he was' , but it only made me pause for a second. The polite option is to use for a person those pronouns that for which they have stated a preference. Is it something to which a lot of us may be unaccustomed, but I don't find it so terrible. Merely unfamiliar.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: flondrix on 06 Dec 2017, 10:24
Otoh, my native language uses the exact same word for the female third person singular, the second person plural and the informal direct address, and I never noticed until someone pointed it out recently.

Of course not.  Grammar is something that other languages have.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: dutchrvl on 06 Dec 2017, 10:39
Can you give me a reason why you think that this forum is a 'self-selecting' group that introduces bias? Unlike Patreon, there does not seem to be any obvious prerequisite criteria other than 'read QC once and noticed the link to the forums'.

I doubt there is anyone here who read QC once.  This forum consists of people who not only noticed the link to the forums, but felt compelled to click on it, read, weren't driven away by the nasty arguments, and felt compelled to comment.  And of course have the time to waste. 

I realizing this is changing, but I suspect it is still true that "normal" people are too busy working, socializing in meatspace, changing diapers, having sex, or whatever it is that normal people do, to devote much time to arguing about societal issues in the comments on a webcomic.

I usually assume other people, like me, are commenting during worktime... :angel:
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: TinPenguin on 06 Dec 2017, 11:20
I hear dissonance when trying to use plural or collective pronouns for singular entities. Rather than deny Tilly pronouns, mentally, I substitute the indefinite pronoun "one" for Tilly's preferred they/them.[1]

So because using a supposedly plural pronoun feels odd, you're using an indefinite pronoun instead? How does that make any more sense?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: A Duck on 06 Dec 2017, 11:32
Daamn, I feel like Jeph spend 90% of the total drawing time for today making Tilly's legs.

Is it me or he's been improving in terms of anatomy recently? Likely because of Bubbles.

I now feel bad for Tilly. I hope they can have a place after this Hannelore PA thing inevitably fails.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: ToodleLew on 06 Dec 2017, 11:50
I hear dissonance when trying to use plural or collective pronouns for singular entities. Rather than deny Tilly pronouns, mentally, I substitute the indefinite pronoun "one" for Tilly's preferred they/them.[1]

So because using a supposedly plural pronoun feels odd, you're using an indefinite pronoun instead? How does that make any more sense?

I didn't say that it had to make sense to you. But, as a "gender neutral" pronoun that has separate singular and plural forms, it makes more sense to me  then the (usually) plural "they/them".
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Timemaster on 06 Dec 2017, 12:54
Daamn, I feel like Jeph spend 90% of the total drawing time for today making Tilly's legs.

Is it me or he's been improving in terms of anatomy recently? Likely because of Bubbles.

I noticed that, too. Tilly displays a very realistic and organic posture here. I like that. Todays strip is very detailled and must have been a lot of work.
And as I have mentioned before, Tilly seems to have some water deposition in their legs. At least Jeph seems to me do have dawn them exactly that way. I think this is intentional and shows how much thought he has put in this new character.
And one thing more: I admire Jephs skill in drawing hands and fingers. Just look at the way Tilly is holding their phone. But the thing he hasn't mastered yet are feet. And shoes, just look at Tillys handstand a few days back. Nothing really important, I know. But it amuses me every time I see bare feet in the strip.  :wink:

By the way, do you like my new signature?  :-D

TM
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Welu on 06 Dec 2017, 12:59
I had the same thought while writing my last post. I had to use 'they were' instead of 's/he was' , but it only made me pause for a second. The polite option is to use for a person those pronouns that for which they have stated a preference. Is it something to which a lot of us may be unaccustomed, but I don't find it so terrible. Merely unfamiliar.

This is a good attitude.

As a they, which I feel the need to say again so people are reminded we're real people and not just a grammar connundrum to be solved, I can appreciate it is new to some and takes a bit of getting used to at first. Especially for people where English is not a first language for them.

However trying and messing up is a lot more appreciated than refusing outright, or saying we should come up with something "better". That incidentally ignores that trans and nonbinary people have already been having these discussions a long time. It's worth remembering that just because something is new to you does not mean that it is new.

This forum aims to be an inclusive space. That means we aim to be a little bit more compassionate and do a little more to make people feel welcome.

Someone telling you their pronouns is extending a level of vulnerability and trust. Turning around and saying you won't because you think you know better for whatever reason is patronising and can be so hurtful.

Moderator Comment In this space, they is a valid pronoun. As it should be everywhere but the rest of the world is still getting there. Don't tell people how to identify. Respect people's (and the characters') wishes and use the pronoun they tell you to use for them. It is that simple.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: TV4Fun on 06 Dec 2017, 18:49
Jeph told us Tilly's dad's name. I think that means we will meet him within the next 3 strips. Then we will meet his girlfriend. Then we will meet her parrot, then there will be a 53 strip arc where we visit the pet shop where she got the parrot and meet 4 or 5 pet shop employees and be introduced to all their personal dramas. Then a Roomba will bring Steve some cereal while Pintsize works on installing a flatulence generator, which will bring him back to Faye and Bubbles' shop which has resolved all of its financial difficulties offscreen and is now a booming, popular business. We will spend 2 strips there and then follow one of the pet shop employees as he spends the next 232 strips trying to work up the nerve to ask out the demisexual hijra from the flower shop across the street which leads into a climactic final battle between Pizza girl and the orbiting pizza satellite.

Also, sub-poll, if you were given the choice of spending the rest of your life with only Spookybot or Tilly for companionship, would you prefer cyanide tablets or hanging yourself?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 06 Dec 2017, 18:49
One would get tired of 'Tilly' very quickly.
..... (um, what?)

I confess to being disingenuously disruptive.  (Any mod whose suspicions were aroused has earned a pat on the back.)
I think I have convinced myself that Tilly rates a '1'.  (Although I wish we had seen "Tilly's Adventures in the Spider Zone". I might be inspired to commit fanfic.)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: TheBiscuit on 06 Dec 2017, 19:03
Jeph told us Tilly's dad's name. I think that means we will meet him within the next 3 strips.
I don't really know if you were serious, but I think that a decent number of the text comments below the strip are not to be taken seriously.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: snufflebottoms on 06 Dec 2017, 19:53
Jeph told us Tilly's dad's name. I think that means we will meet him within the next 3 strips. Then we will meet his girlfriend. Then we will meet her parrot, then there will be a 53 strip arc where we visit the pet shop where she got the parrot and meet 4 or 5 pet shop employees and be introduced to all their personal dramas. Then a Roomba will bring Steve some cereal while Pintsize works on installing a flatulence generator, which will bring him back to Faye and Bubbles' shop which has resolved all of its financial difficulties offscreen and is now a booming, popular business. We will spend 2 strips there and then follow one of the pet shop employees as he spends the next 232 strips trying to work up the nerve to ask out the demisexual hijra from the flower shop across the street which leads into a climactic final battle between Pizza girl and the orbiting pizza satellite.

Also, sub-poll, if you were given the choice of spending the rest of your life with only Spookybot or Tilly for companionship, would you prefer cyanide tablets or hanging yourself?

well spookybot seems okay.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: TV4Fun on 06 Dec 2017, 20:00
Jeph told us Tilly's dad's name. I think that means we will meet him within the next 3 strips. Then we will meet his girlfriend. Then we will meet her parrot, then there will be a 53 strip arc where we visit the pet shop where she got the parrot and meet 4 or 5 pet shop employees and be introduced to all their personal dramas. Then a Roomba will bring Steve some cereal while Pintsize works on installing a flatulence generator, which will bring him back to Faye and Bubbles' shop which has resolved all of its financial difficulties offscreen and is now a booming, popular business. We will spend 2 strips there and then follow one of the pet shop employees as he spends the next 232 strips trying to work up the nerve to ask out the demisexual hijra from the flower shop across the street which leads into a climactic final battle between Pizza girl and the orbiting pizza satellite.

Also, sub-poll, if you were given the choice of spending the rest of your life with only Spookybot or Tilly for companionship, would you prefer cyanide tablets or hanging yourself?

well spookybot seems okay.
I just feel like in his presence, I would die of boredom, because he would solve every problem I had before it had a chance to get interesting.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Thrudd on 06 Dec 2017, 20:05
Jeph told us Tilly's dad's name. I think that means we will meet him within the next 3 strips. Then we will meet his girlfriend. Then we will meet her parrot, then there will be a 53 strip arc where we visit the pet shop where she got the parrot and meet 4 or 5 pet shop employees and be introduced to all their personal dramas. Then a Roomba will bring Steve some cereal while Pintsize works on installing a flatulence generator, which will bring him back to Faye and Bubbles' shop which has resolved all of its financial difficulties offscreen and is now a booming, popular business. We will spend 2 strips there and then follow one of the pet shop employees as he spends the next 232 strips trying to work up the nerve to ask out the demisexual hijra from the flower shop across the street which leads into a climactic final battle between Pizza girl and the orbiting pizza satellite.

Also, sub-poll, if you were given the choice of spending the rest of your life with only Spookybot or Tilly for companionship, would you prefer cyanide tablets or hanging yourself?

well spookybot seems okay.
I just feel like in his presence, I would die of boredom, because he would solve every problem I had before it had a chance to get interesting.
You lack imagination and a twisted sense of humor.
Get them to help write fan-fics or in my case adventure modules for DnD - Horror by Gaslight to be more exact.
They could help crunch the numbers, verify the historical and folklore accuracy and set the challenge ratings appropriate to the players involved.   :-D
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Penquin47 on 06 Dec 2017, 20:11
If Tilly has to consult a book about how to be a PA, remind me how they're supposed to be so good at their job?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 06 Dec 2017, 20:18
Because even PAs have to begin somewhere. They still have plenty to learn about their bosses and need to realise where they are working and the needs and requirements for that environment.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: jwhouk on 06 Dec 2017, 20:53
At least it wasn't a "Personal Assistants for Dummies" book...
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Shjade on 06 Dec 2017, 22:36
Then I remembered if Beatrice thought there were a potential spy in her company she'd just shoot them into the sun.
Only after she'd concluded that there was no other use she could put the person to.  Shooting an opponent's agent into the sun, or even just shooting them, telegraphs that you've discovered their network.  Beatrice would want to keep them guessing.
For a normal person, yes, it might indicate you've discovered their network.

For Beatrice, it could mean anything from "spy network discovered" to "Tilly got her the wrong kind of coffee one morning." So it's not really much of an indicator.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: SmilingCat on 06 Dec 2017, 23:05
Okay, Tilly, that outfit is pretty adorably over the top. I applaud.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: BenRG on 06 Dec 2017, 23:16
Oh, ouch! This particular explosion is actually quite painful to see.

I know why Jeph's doing this. He's emphasising that Tilly 'doesn't understand real life' and it does the job but it's still painful to see that attempt to dress casual from someone whom I bet doesn't normally do 'casual' at all in any way.

Meanwhile, anyone else notice that Tilly is working from a guidebook? As it's grey and not yellow, it isn't a 'For Dummies' book but obviously it has much the same basic concept. I find myself wondering if Tilly, if they were to read one of Scott Adams' satirical business self-help books, would assume it is for real! The point I'm making is that the 'how to...' book makes it all the more likely that this is some bizarre prank on Beatrice's part.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Cornelius on 06 Dec 2017, 23:28
I thought that this might be a notebook. Even Truly is bound to need portable memory sometime.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: traroth on 07 Dec 2017, 01:24
Bottom line: don't be so quick to airily dismiss the opinions of an entire community. Especially the community whose existence helps to ensure that you can continue to read and discuss the very comic we're all enjoying.
Its interesting, and maybe chilling to note the power of groupthink and isolated groups here. Here are two bodies of people, probably overlapping, and both of whom probably have fairly similar views on a lot of subjects, else they wouldn't enjoy the comic. But on a subject of no real importance at all - the behaviour of a fictional character whose personality is to date only outlined in the thinnest of ways - we have disparate views, apparently vehemently held, which seem to be tending to opposite extremes.

In many ways its a mirror of events in the wider world, and of course art should hold up a mirror to the wider world.

But I find it disturbing how recent society polarises itself so readily and so vehemently on so many topics, to the detriment of its own good, and this is such a good mirror of that.

Don't forget there are also a significant part of this forum's reader who don't give a damn about those hasty overinterpretations based on very, very meager information. I'm sometimes stunned how far fetched ideas I read here, and it's actually funny, in a twisted way. But I wouldn't start or take part in a flame war over that in any case. "Relax, it's just a comic" is a sentence of great wisdom.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: traroth on 07 Dec 2017, 01:33
Winslow: "I'm jealous. Sharpie just wipes right of me".

So the question of the "spray" I mentioned previously seems to be settled...
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: BenRG on 07 Dec 2017, 01:47
So, anyway, I've been thinking on 'what is Tilly's role' and I think that today's strip actually answers that question.

Tilly's attempt at 'casual clothing' today is so strange and ill-fitting in so many ways that I'm suspecting that Jeph created her to be an 'Alien Amongst Us', someone whose social instincts and prior normal cultural background is so different from that of the regular cast that we can learn more about them by seeing them through their puzzled eyes.

Of course, there will also be regular cheap jokes about Tilly's inability to 'fit in' or even come close to it.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 07 Dec 2017, 02:24
Yay, more Tilly.  8-)
...

You are Jeph Jaques, and I claim my $5 !
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 07 Dec 2017, 02:30
Can you give me a reason why you think that this forum is a 'self-selecting' group that introduces bias? Unlike Patreon, there does not seem to be any obvious prerequisite criteria other than 'read QC once and noticed the link to the forums'.

I doubt there is anyone here who read QC once.  This forum consists of people who not only noticed the link to the forums, but felt compelled to click on it, read, weren't driven away by the nasty arguments, and felt compelled to comment.  And of course have the time to waste. 

I realizing this is changing, but I suspect it is still true that "normal" people are too busy working, socializing in meatspace, changing diapers, having sex, or whatever it is that normal people do, to devote much time to arguing about societal issues in the comments on a webcomic.

I usually assume other people, like me, are commenting during worktime... :angel:

Oh hell yeah.
You guys and gals and others should thank whatever gods there are that I only post here while at work.

Can you imagine the rambling I could do if I had TIME to draft posts the way I might actually want to!

:)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 07 Dec 2017, 02:38
So, anyway, I've been thinking on 'what is Tilly's role' and I think that today's strip actually answers that question.

Tilly's attempt at 'casual clothing' today is so strange and ill-fitting in so many ways that I'm suspecting that Jeph created her to be an 'Alien Amongst Us', someone whose social instincts and prior normal cultural background is so different from that of the regular cast that we can learn more about them by seeing them through their puzzled eyes.

Of course, there will also be regular cheap jokes about Tilly's inability to 'fit in' or even come close to it.

Everything you say above may be true, Ben.

Sadly, I don't think I care anymore.
The character has imprinted "annoying" all over... it would take an overwhelming Damascene moment for me to divert from that now.
The more I see of Tilly, the more my initial impression is bolstered.

And I JUST THIS SECOND realised why I am having such a problem...

The Faye/Bubbles arc has gone away because of this.
And the recent Faye / Bubbles arc (to me) was one of the SINGULARLY best pieces of writing I have seen in this strip.

If Tilly had cropped up before all that, I might not have had SUCH a vehement reaction to the introduction.
But I still doubt if I would ever have 'liked' them...
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Marco on 07 Dec 2017, 02:40
I will admit that I definitely wasn't expecting anything like this to happen with regards to Tilly. It does seem to open up some interesting possibilities. We don't yet know anything about their father, but presumably he might have been as much (if not more) of an influence on Tilly's personality as was Mrs. Ellicott-Chatham. It is now a somewhat interesting question to ask why they were given this particular role. Assistant to the heir of the company is a responsibility associated with a lot of trust,  even if that heir is somewhat wayward, in her mother's eyes...
I'd say that, if the heir is even the least bit wayward, it's a fortiori a position of trust. But that's not quite compatible, I think, with Beatrice misremembering their name. It might be that she really does see a PA as just an accessory function, and So didn't mind much who Taffy, or something, was, as long as they have the right skill set.

Looks like a PA is just a "tool" in Beatrice's vision. I don't think it's a coincidence that, when talking about "Taffy", she was riding Mechahorse (Cybersteed? Robostallion?) and demonstrating how to handle a malfunctioning "tool"...
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: TinPenguin on 07 Dec 2017, 03:33
Tilly continues to reek of desperation, and it's not an attractive smell.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Welu on 07 Dec 2017, 03:34
I find the funniest thing about Tilly's outfit is the combo of ripped sleeves and jeans, but the shirt is still tucked in. Like they still have to maintain a certain level of professionalism while trying to dress casually. This is my favourite strip of this arc yet.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Marco on 07 Dec 2017, 04:11
Tilly continues to reek of desperation, and it's not an attractive smell.

I dunno, she looks very confident to me in the last pannel...
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 07 Dec 2017, 05:08
Tilly continues to reek of desperation, and it's not an attractive smell.

I dunno, she looks very confident to me in the last pannel...

Yeah, but personal confidence has no bearing on outward perception of desperation...

Probably a million examples, but the first one that jumps into my head is Gervais' "David Brent" in "The Office"

Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Mr_Rose on 07 Dec 2017, 05:55
Y’allare confusing me: you keep using this word “casual” like that was her goal and she somehow failed.
The Guide said “appropriate to the work environment” and that outfit absolutely fits CoD’s, ah, unique style. Thus, total success.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: traroth on 07 Dec 2017, 06:21
Professionally, it's really a strange situation. Tilly is now going to help Hannelore at her work? I can't see how this could be working for Dora...
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 07 Dec 2017, 06:26
Y’allare confusing me: you keep using this word “casual” like that was her goal and she somehow failed.
The Guide said “appropriate to the work environment” and that outfit absolutely fits CoD’s, ah, unique style. Thus, total success.

Yeah, but Hanners works in a coffee shop, not as a painter and decorator, which is what Tilly looks like.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Cornelius on 07 Dec 2017, 06:29
On the other hand, Hannelore has said explicitly that things explode on her. Seems reasonable to dress as a painter, then.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: ToodleLew on 07 Dec 2017, 08:42
At least, Tilly has some remarkable lettering skills. They seem to be left-handed (at least, in all the scenes that I checked, they hold or manipulate items with their left hand), so the lettering on their right shoulder makes sense. But, the lettering is so NEAT and PRECISE (even to the dot in the middle of the small 'o' of "or"). I don't know of anyone who can use their dominant hand to letter their opposite shoulder with such precision. But, then again, Tilly seems to bring a matter of precision to anything they do. They will make someone an excellent PA, even if it is not Hannelore.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Schismatism on 07 Dec 2017, 08:47
I see Hannelore called them "Taffy" again.  So the attempts didn't stick... perhaps the meme is too strong, and before long their family will also be calling them Taffy, and one day they'll look down at their photo ID and see "Taffy" written there instead of "Tilly".  And then they have a dream, where they're in a restaurant, and everybody says nothing but "Taffy, Taffy Taffy Taffy."

Anyway, I get where the character's idea came from, e.g. "Hannelore deals with someone who's even more awkward than she is," but I have to admit that Tilly seems like a really flat horn-in, like the guest star in a sitcom who suddenly everybody revolves around, and who eventually ends up taking over the whole show.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: pwhodges on 07 Dec 2017, 08:54
I see Hannelore called them "Taffy" again.

No, that is Tilly accurately recalling an earlier conversation.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: ToodleLew on 07 Dec 2017, 08:56
I see Hannelore called them "Taffy" again.  So the attempts didn't stick.

That panel appears to be a flash-back to strip Number 3613, where Hannelore comments on Tilly's attempt at picking her daily wardrobe. From the context, it appears that Tilly is recalling the events of the previous day, before preparing themself for their second day of work as Hannelore's PA.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: dutchrvl on 07 Dec 2017, 08:57
I see Hannelore called them "Taffy" again.  So the attempts didn't stick... perhaps the meme is too strong, and before long their family will also be calling them Taffy, and one day they'll look down at their photo ID and see "Taffy" written there instead of "Tilly".  And then they have a dream, where they're in a restaurant, and everybody says nothing but "Taffy, Taffy Taffy Taffy."


She hasn't though. The panel in which Hannelore calls her Taffy in the current comic is a flashback from earlier that Tilly is remembering.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: dutchrvl on 07 Dec 2017, 08:58
Okay, okay, after 3 reactions I am sure Schismatisms has realized this by now... ;)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: traroth on 07 Dec 2017, 08:58
Do you mean it's... some kind of flash-back ?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Schismatism on 07 Dec 2017, 09:12
Ah, quite right, my apologies.  ...but part of me still wants to see the other things happen for some reason.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: brasca on 07 Dec 2017, 10:35
Professionally, it's really a strange situation. Tilly is now going to help Hannelore at her work? I can't see how this could be working for Dora...

She could help negotiate with her Dora’s vendors.  She was impressed enough to provisionally lift the death sentence.

It’s a good outfit in an attempt to fit in, but I think I’d want some arm protection if explosions are frequent.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: ChipNoir on 07 Dec 2017, 11:49
I have never 180'd on a character so many times in a row before. I can't make up my mind whether I love their absurdity or hate their bizzarness and potentially manipulative behavior. Tilly is really a puzzle.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Timemaster on 07 Dec 2017, 11:55
Woooha, more Tilly.  :-D

I think their effort to fit in CoD today is a bit over the top, but it's a nice thought. Maybe it's the absurdity of this character that appeals to me. I don't take Tilly too serious, so I can really enjoy them. They are just a comic character after all.
Can't wait for tomorrow to see where Jeph will take this.

TM
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: dutchrvl on 07 Dec 2017, 12:31
I am definitely intrigued, also to see whether he intends to make Tilly a permanent character.
Chances are that he will, since I don't think he has ever put so much ongoing emphasis on a new character without eventual permanence. Only example of the latter that I can think of would be creepybot.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: ChipNoir on 07 Dec 2017, 12:36
Woooha, more Tilly.  :-D

I think their effort to fit in CoD today is a bit over the top, but it's a nice thought. Maybe it's the absurdity of this character that appeals to me. I don't take Tilly too serious, so I can really enjoy them. They are just a comic character after all.
Can't wait for tomorrow to see where Jeph will take this.

TM

Comedy is pain, and Tilly is an unending source of it so far.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Tova on 07 Dec 2017, 17:11
Tilly's outfit is not your typical coffee shop outfit, but then again, CoD is not your typical coffee shop.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: OldGoat on 07 Dec 2017, 20:33
So, anyway, I've been thinking on 'what is Tilly's role' and I think that today's strip actually answers that question.

Tilly's attempt at 'casual clothing' today is so strange and ill-fitting in so many ways that I'm suspecting that Jeph created her to be an 'Alien Amongst Us', someone whose social instincts and prior normal cultural background is so different from that of the regular cast that we can learn more about them by seeing them through their puzzled eyes.
Wait a minute, that would mean that Brontdyn Birch is really
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Gyrre on 07 Dec 2017, 21:34
Bottom line: don't be so quick to airily dismiss the opinions of an entire community. Especially the community whose existence helps to ensure that you can continue to read and discuss the very comic we're all enjoying.
But I find it disturbing how recent society polarises itself so readily and so vehemently on so many topics, to the detriment of its own good, and this is such a good mirror of that.

This extreme polarization on pretty much any topic is nowhere happening as badly as in the US though, undoubtedly a side effect of the fact that there are really only 2 parties (which I have always found a dubious system as a native Dutchman).
To be honest, US society is already in a (not so) civil war, and so far nobody is "winning" (maybe extreme conservative Christians and big corporations?) and everybody is losing.

Edit: edited as I realized I didn't even believe it myself to be true...

Social engineering, methinks.

And, let's be honest, a quick read of the red part of the Christian Bible would indicate that there should be quotation marks around the word; extreme conservative "christians".
There's a lot of tenets being ignored there. Some quick examples:
Matthew 7:1-5
Romans 12:18
Galatians  3:28

For those curious, I'd recommend The Complete Jewish Bible translation as it's translated directly from Greek to Modern English (it's meant for both Messianic Jewish and Christian services).
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 07 Dec 2017, 22:10
I find the whole pronoun business becomes much easier if I just close my eyes and imagine Tilly with two heads. I believe that Jeph has been drawing Tilly obsessively (like Claire before she came into the comic) so we are stuck with them for the indefinite future. What I have against Tilly is that they are sucking the narrativium out of more worthy characters.

"Hello, Allosaurus-for-Rent? I have a job for you..."
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: TinPenguin on 07 Dec 2017, 23:31
What I have against Tilly is that they are sucking the narrativium out of more worthy characters.

Yep. Much of my dislike for the character might fade away if all this was going on in the background. But they've dominated the entire plot for weeks, when there are so many more established characters I'd prefer to be checking in on. It's like when some stranger begs your attention in the street and you can't shake them off. If they're annoying to start with, it's exacerbated when you've got somewhere else you'd really rather be.

Aside: been a while since I was awake early enough for the comic not to have updated yet.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Shjade on 08 Dec 2017, 00:22
I find it odd how many people are saying their dislike of Tilly is largely due to comics about her not involving other members of the cast, as if that has any impact on the character or the arc.

I'd like to see more of Faye & Bubbles' relationship development to find out where it ends up going, too, but that doesn't mean I'm going to judge the rest of the cast by "are they Faye & Bubbles' relationship?" That would be just plain Tilly silly.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: TinPenguin on 08 Dec 2017, 00:25
I find it odd how many people are saying their dislike of Tilly is largely due to comics about her not involving other members of the cast, as if that has any impact on the character or the arc.

Why is it odd? If I went to see a band and they spent half their set playing slow ballads instead of the usual fast, fun tunes I like them for, does that have no impact on my enjoyment of the concert?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Shjade on 08 Dec 2017, 00:31
I find it odd how many people are saying their dislike of Tilly is largely due to comics about her not involving other members of the cast, as if that has any impact on the character or the arc.

Why is it odd? If I went to see a band and they spent half their set playing slow ballads instead of the usual fast, fun tunes I like them for, does that have no impact on my enjoyment of the concert?

That's not the same thing? It's the same band, just different music.

This would be like deciding the opening act is bad just because their existence means you have to wait a little longer to hear the band you really came to see, regardless of whether or not they perform well. Kinda unfair to them.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: hakko504 on 08 Dec 2017, 01:15
That would be just plain Tilly silly.
I've been waiting for this joke. Thank you.

Anyway, still no comic today. Has Jeph given any indication of why elsewhere?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: BenRG on 08 Dec 2017, 01:16
I find it odd how many people are saying their dislike of Tilly is largely due to comics about her not involving other members of the cast, as if that has any impact on the character or the arc.

Why is it odd? If I went to see a band and they spent half their set playing slow ballads instead of the usual fast, fun tunes I like them for, does that have no impact on my enjoyment of the concert?

That's not the same thing? It's the same band, just different music.

It may be the same band but if your enjoyment comes from the genre rather than the performer then, yes, them experimenting with another genre may indeed impact on your enjoyment.

Anyway, still no comic today. Has Jeph given any indication of why elsewhere?

His last Tweet was that he was waiting for a flight so he may be currently at 5 miles up going somewhere.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: hakko504 on 08 Dec 2017, 01:45
Anyway, still no comic today. Has Jeph given any indication of why elsewhere?
His last Tweet was that he was waiting for a flight so he may be currently at 5 miles up going somewhere.
That's probably a very good reason for not posting. :)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: gopher on 08 Dec 2017, 02:08
Just when you think they have hit rock bottom, out comes a bigger pick axe.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: BenRG on 08 Dec 2017, 02:11
Comic Up
Here is the real reason why Hannelore doesn't need a personal assistant: Being that organised about her anxieties in some ways takes the fun out of it!

Basically (and I admit that I'm speculating here but I feel good about it), Hannelore wanted an hour where she and Winslow talked about things that worry her because he's her friend and talking to him about her anxieties and listening to his attempts to reassure her is something that she enjoys. Tilly, bless their black nylon leggings, is proposing to turn it into an impromptu executive meeting of the Board of Trustees of the Worldwide Fund for Nature (whilst Winslow would like it to also be a Vaudeville revue). This is another reason why I doubt Hannelore will keep Tilly on: They suck all the enjoyment out of her life.

That said, Winslow and Tilly have some common approaches to information presentation and, frankly, a common perspective about what is 'fun'. I wouldn't be surprised if, in the long term, they become friends much in the way Faye and Bubbles are currently friends. I'm not sure exactly how that would work out yet but I feel that it is a possibility.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Near Lurker on 08 Dec 2017, 02:14
Can Tilly pick up her medication?  If she's still on lorazepam, that's CIV... can you pick up CIV meds for someone else?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: BenRG on 08 Dec 2017, 02:18
Can Tilly pick up her medication?  If she's still on lorazepam, that's CIV... can you pick up CIV meds for someone else?

If Hannelore calls the pharmacy ahead and Tilly provides both written identification and written confirmation of Hannelore's consent, I can't see there being a problem.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: mercykills on 08 Dec 2017, 02:25
Can Tilly pick up her medication?  If she's still on lorazepam, that's CIV... can you pick up CIV meds for someone else?

Speaking from personal experience, I'm on Clonazapam and two Schedule II pain medications and no pharmacy has ever balked at others picking up my medication for me. Now, obviously different pharmacies will have their own rules and I live approximately 1,000ish miles away from Massachusetts but seeing as they're all beholden to the DEA, I would assume what one pharmacy can do in one state would work in another(provided the states haven't passed their own laws forbidding it).

Long winded...but I hoped that answered your question. :)

ETA: As soon as I finished this, a few caveats came to mind. First, all pharmacy's have signs that say that to pick up controlled substances will require ID. The only time they've ever asked for it was when I was new and they needed to verify my info, they've never asked for it since but they reserve that right, of course. Also, at the register they ask you to confirm the address and/or birth date of whomever medicine it is you're picking up(whether it's yours or someone else's). It's usually both if you're not a familiar face or just the birth date if they know you. But again, that'll depend on how strict they are with protocol.

Sorry, I don't know why that just occurred to me now. :S
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Tova on 08 Dec 2017, 03:12
Bad idea to have a dance number if you're worried about stepping on someone's toes.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 08 Dec 2017, 03:30
On the other hand, Hannelore has said explicitly that things explode on her. Seems reasonable to dress as a painter, then.

Hmm..

If *I* was going to work somewhere that something could explode on me, bare arms and legs would NOT be my first choice.
(self-redacted naughty exception)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 08 Dec 2017, 03:35
I find it odd how many people are saying their dislike of Tilly is largely due to comics about her not involving other members of the cast, as if that has any impact on the character or the arc.

Why is it odd? If I went to see a band and they spent half their set playing slow ballads instead of the usual fast, fun tunes I like them for, does that have no impact on my enjoyment of the concert?


That's not the same thing? It's the same band, just different music.

This would be like deciding the opening act is bad just because their existence means you have to wait a little longer to hear the band you really came to see, regardless of whether or not they perform well. Kinda unfair to them.

Tell that to "Spinal Tap Mk 2"....

JAZZ ODYSSEY!!!
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Absimilliard on 08 Dec 2017, 04:09
I've been a fan and avid reader for years, and I've just now created a profile so I could vote "1". They're just plain annoying and should only be used for Hanners to get a win over her mother. What potensial they have is mostly also present in other better, characters, with the exception of the "them"-pronouns factor, which I'd like to se introduced with a more likeable character (maybe even an existing one, I'm always glad to see (well written) character development).
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: WoaLG on 08 Dec 2017, 04:29
I've been a fan and avid reader for years, and I've just now created a profile so I could vote "1". They're just plain annoying and should only be used for Hanners to get a win over her mother. What potensial they have is mostly also present in other better, characters, with the exception of the "them"-pronouns factor, which I'd like to se introduced with a more likeable character (maybe even an existing one, I'm always glad to see (well written) character development).

Welcome new person! (Heh, I beat "Is it cold in here?". I'm so bored at work tonight.)

I didn't really think about this until I read your post, but it occurs to me that it might actually be a good thing that the first (confirmed) non-binary character isn't perfect. I felt like Jeph was too cautious when he outed Claire. It felt (to me) that he was concerned that if she wasn't perfect or close to it people would claim that he was doing somehow implying that minorities were not as "good" as non-trans people.

It's not as common now, but it used to be fairly common with female or non-white protagonists to make them super awesome just so that nobody would claim that they weren't as good as the white/male characters, but they swung it too far in the other direction. I've seen a few examples with lgbt characters too, but not as many. (In general, not specifically in QC)

So I don't like Tilly, but I'm happy that Jeph isn't being as cautious with them as he was with Claire. It makes Tilly feel more 3d.

I hope I made sense and this isn't all 4am ramblings of a sleep deprived moron. :p
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: traroth on 08 Dec 2017, 06:20
Here in France, we are way ahead of you :D

This 1963 movie had a gay bad guy, wielding a machine gun and illegally distilling booze : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Tontons_flingueurs

(Honestly, in those days, I think the character was gay only to make him look even more bad. He was also german, which in 1963 in France, made someone look really really bad...)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: swapna on 08 Dec 2017, 08:06
Oh dear, Winslow and Tilly together, I don't know how Hannelore copes with the two of the most annoying characters in QC right now. The only way this could get worse is if they invite Claire.

(click to show/hide)
I didn't really think about this until I read your post, but it occurs to me that it might actually be a good thing that the first (confirmed) non-binary character isn't perfect. I felt like Jeph was too cautious when he outed Claire. It felt (to me) that he was concerned that if she wasn't perfect or close to it people would claim that he was doing somehow implying that minorities were not as "good" as non-trans people.

It's not as common now, but it used to be fairly common with female or non-white protagonists to make them super awesome just so that nobody would claim that they weren't as good as the white/male characters, but they swung it too far in the other direction. I've seen a few examples with lgbt characters too, but not as many. (In general, not specifically in QC)

So I don't like Tilly, but I'm happy that Jeph isn't being as cautious with them as he was with Claire. It makes Tilly feel more 3d.

I hope I made sense and this isn't all 4am ramblings of a sleep deprived moron. :p
I agree with Absimillard in regards to Tilly - they're superfluous and annoying, and add nothing to the plot. Their introduction as Beatrice's minion seemed (at first) to give us a look into Chatham enterprises and Hanners' relationship with it all, but now it just seems like an excuse to introduce Tilly and make sure they stick.

As for non-perfect characters - I understand that, and I think you're right that Jeph was over-cautious with Claire (not the character, but the MartenClaire romance). I think with Tilly it had the opposite direction, as far as I've observed; people were a lot more willing to insult them or call them Taffy or something else (or tolerate it) when their pronouns weren't known. People started to defend them/insists on proper pronoun use precisely because now, they could empathise with Tilly.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Nepiophage on 08 Dec 2017, 08:32
And, let's be honest, a quick read of the red part of the Christian Bible would indicate that there should be quotation marks around the word; extreme conservative "christians".
There's a lot of tenets being ignored there. Some quick examples:
Matthew 7:1-5
Romans 12:18
Galatians  3:28

For those curious, I'd recommend The Complete Jewish Bible translation as it's translated directly from Greek to Modern English (it's meant for both Messianic Jewish and Christian services).
The most popular part seems to be Luke 19:26-27; which says

For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 08 Dec 2017, 08:38
For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

King James Bible: Yoda Translation.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: brasca on 08 Dec 2017, 10:27
And now I want to see this musical number.  Tilly might just be a Triple Threat.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Shjade on 08 Dec 2017, 10:37
I find it odd how many people are saying their dislike of Tilly is largely due to comics about her not involving other members of the cast, as if that has any impact on the character or the arc.

Why is it odd? If I went to see a band and they spent half their set playing slow ballads instead of the usual fast, fun tunes I like them for, does that have no impact on my enjoyment of the concert?

That's not the same thing? It's the same band, just different music.

It may be the same band but if your enjoyment comes from the genre rather than the performer then, yes, them experimenting with another genre may indeed impact on your enjoyment.
Yeah. And if it's the same band, that's fair, because you've had previous experience with them that you enjoyed and now they're doing something you don't enjoy, so you like them less.

It's unfair to judge a completely different band as "bad" simply because they're not the band you wanted to see.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: TinPenguin on 08 Dec 2017, 11:35
But you're changing the analogy. There's no other band. There is one band playing. I came to see them to hear all my favourite songs, but they are instead playing all songs from their new album that does not interest me in the slightest. Of course, they're artists, they can move forward with their work however they like, but I reserve the right to stand at the back whinging and shouting "Freebird!"
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: JohnA on 08 Dec 2017, 13:41
The whole non-binary thing is tiresome in the extreme. Tilly disclosed it to Marten because she knew about Claire from the dossier and that it would touch a chord with Marten. The same way Tilly thought she was buying trousers and a bag in Hanner's favourite colours. It was a deliberate attempt to curry favour and get under her skin. Would you trust someone like that?
She is as manipulative as hell.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: cloudatlatl on 08 Dec 2017, 13:55
I don't hate Tilly but I am hating this story arc more and more... 'wealthy privileged super organized character gets personal assistant, mostly they debate what functions the personal assistant could perform'... it has none of the classic QC character drama that always kept me coming back.  Now I check the comic and think, 'ugh, more of this'... I would be so happy to see literally any other character get some more focus time right now.  I'd welcome a three-week Bembo Meets Randy the Bandicoot holiday special at this point.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 08 Dec 2017, 14:31
Welcome, new people!

Yes, "manipulative" came to my mind too about Ms. Biirch.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: pwhodges on 08 Dec 2017, 14:54
The whole non-binary thing is tiresome in the extreme. Tilly disclosed it to Marten because she knew about Claire from the dossier and that it would touch a chord with Marten. The same way Tilly thought she was buying trousers and a bag in Hanner's favourite colours. It was a deliberate attempt to curry favour and get under her skin. Would you trust someone like that?
She is as manipulative as hell.

Global Moderator Comment Tiresome you may feel it to be; but please observe our practice and use they/their for Tilly.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Taffy_Fan_420 on 08 Dec 2017, 15:19
Hello - I've been reading QC since comic 200 or so - a very very long time, and have lurked the forum many times in that past decade plus.

I finally registered an account to say this last month of comics (aside form the art which has actually been excellent) has been by far the worst, most tone-deaf, boring and pointless in the history of the strip.

And I'm happily surprised to see near consensus here about that, with well over half of respondants to the poll being very negative, and almost no-one being very positive, especially considering (and please recognise that this is said with love) that y'all are BIG BIG qc fans and tend to be thrilled with whatever direction is taken.

I'm fine with all the new characters who dissapear. I'm fine with not seeing this Marten guy i've heard so much about. I'm fine with all the (previous) main cast enter into some form of LBGT relationship (or seem to be about to enter into one). Its all interesting stuff and on brand and ect.

But this taffy stuff man. They gotta go.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Tova on 08 Dec 2017, 15:22
Tilly disclosed it to Marten because she knew about Claire from the dossier and that it would touch a chord with Marten.

I doubt this would have affected Marten's impression of Tilly one way or the other, actually. Marten simply would have accepted it as something to remember about Tilly without a second thought. The pun would have made a significantly larger impact, honestly. And if you think that was a calculated move, then that's a touch cynical IMO.

Anyway, the divisiveness of Tilly continues to amaze.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Storel on 08 Dec 2017, 15:43
So... What kind of cereal do you think Steve likes most?
Hmmm....some kind of flakes.

Although he is enough of a he-man to down an entire bowl of Post Grape Nuts.

Do they even make Grape-Nuts any more? I haven't seen it in any grocery store for years, perhaps decades. I thought they must have discontinued it.


To be honest, US society is already in a (not so) civil war, and so far nobody is "winning" (maybe extreme conservative Christians and big corporations?) and everybody is losing.

I used to work for a guy who was also an SF writer.  Years ago he said something similar, that the extreme polarization is not benefiting either side of the culture war, so I asked him: "Thinking as an SF writer, who is benefiting from it?"

So what was his answer? Inquiring minds want to know!
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: DesiArxxy on 08 Dec 2017, 16:15
The whole non-binary thing is tiresome in the extreme. Tilly disclosed it to Marten because she knew about Claire from the dossier and that it would touch a chord with Marten. The same way Tilly thought she was buying trousers and a bag in Hanner's favourite colours. It was a deliberate attempt to curry favour and get under her skin. Would you trust someone like that?
She is as manipulative as hell.

Agreed.
Tilly disclosed it to Marten because she knew about Claire from the dossier and that it would touch a chord with Marten.

I doubt this would have affected Marten's impression of Tilly one way or the other, actually. Marten simply would have accepted it as something to remember about Tilly without a second thought. The pun would have made a significantly larger impact, honestly. And if you think that was a calculated move, then that's a touch cynical IMO.

Anyway, the divisiveness of Tilly continues to amaze.

I don't think it would have affected Marten's impression significantly, but it is completely in-character for Tilly to try. Especially given that the pants and bag were explicitly canonical.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Case on 08 Dec 2017, 17:10
Tilly disclosed it to Marten because she knew about Claire from the dossier and that it would touch a chord with Marten.

I doubt this would have affected Marten's impression of Tilly one way or the other, actually. Marten simply would have accepted it as something to remember about Tilly without a second thought. The pun would have made a significantly larger impact, honestly. And if you think that was a calculated move, then that's a touch cynical IMO.

Anyway, the divisiveness of Tilly continues to amaze.

Word ...
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 08 Dec 2017, 17:23
Tilly, do something interesting instead of wearing Hannelore to a frazzle. Winslow, you're not helping.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: mercykills on 08 Dec 2017, 17:50
The whole non-binary thing is tiresome in the extreme. Tilly disclosed it to Marten because she knew about Claire from the dossier and that it would touch a chord with Marten. The same way Tilly thought she was buying trousers and a bag in Hanner's favourite colours. It was a deliberate attempt to curry favour and get under her skin. Would you trust someone like that?
She is as manipulative as hell.

Your misuse of their proper pronoun aside; your argument doesn't track.

Look, I'm as anti-Tilly as anyone here. I didn't think the stalk-y intro was appropriate. I think they're a shit character who brings nothing new to the story and in the "bringing of nothing", actually, drags the comic down by wasting time on them that would be better served on other characters and their story lines. That said, I would be absolutely BLOWN AWAY if we were headed down that path.

A character that's pretending to be non-binary to ingratiate themselves with the friend of their new boss? No. One, I don't see Jeph being ok with that in any capacity(I don't claim to know him or be psychic but after reading the comic for so long and watching all the care he puts into the handling of sensitive topics? No, don't see it). Also, two, why would such a little detail mean one thing or another to Martin? But..hmm..ok, for the sake of argument, let's say for a second, it did. That Tilly being non-binary helps them get Martin's friendship, somehow. How would that help them if Hanners decides to fire Tilly? It wouldn't. And while Tilly may be a bit....."much", I don't think even they would have the cognitive dissonance to think that it would.

Finally, buying pants and a bag in what you believe are your boss' favorite color is no where CLOSE to being the same as, "I'm pretending to be non-binary to curry favor." It's just not.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 08 Dec 2017, 18:07
The whole non-binary thing is tiresome in the extreme. Tilly disclosed it to Marten because she knew about Claire from the dossier and that it would touch a chord with Marten. The same way Tilly thought she was buying trousers and a bag in Hanner's favourite colours. It was a deliberate attempt to curry favour and get under her skin. Would you trust someone like that?
She is as manipulative as hell.

Question - Why would Tilly have a section dedicated to Hanner's friend's relationships?
Question the second - How on earth would anyone know that Claire was Trans? The only ones who know (if I recall correctly) are her mother, Clinton, Marten and Emily. Its not been something Claire has been particularly shouting from the rooftops about.
Question part three - If we've already established that some of the information that Tilly has been working from has in fact been incorrect, then why would the information about the others be so accurate?

Look, don't get me wrong, i'm not a fan of Tilly, personally I believe that the story has gone on about a week too long with a character that was an originally interesting gambit, that kind of fell flat. But let's not impose traits on a character that haven't been outright proven yet. Tilly isn't some manipulative evil genius, they're a kid working from a cheat sheet that has the wrong answers on them.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: OldGoat on 08 Dec 2017, 21:12
Do they even make Grape-Nuts any more? I haven't seen it in any grocery store for years, perhaps decades. I thought they must have discontinued it.
It appears from postconsumerbrands.com (https://www.postconsumerbrands.com/brands/grape-nuts/) that they're still around.  I always imagined Saki's Filboid Studge as being something like Grape Nuts.

Question the second - How on earth would anyone know that Claire was Trans? The only ones who know (if I recall correctly) are her mother, Clinton, Marten and Emily. Its not been something Claire has been particularly shouting from the rooftops about.
Dude, we're talkin' about Beatrice the Amoral here.  She probably has copies of the original birth certificates for all Hannelore's friends.  (Come to think of it, the background check for a high level security clearance here in the real world could actually drill down that far.)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Shjade on 08 Dec 2017, 23:20
Dude, we're talkin' about Beatrice the Amoral here.  She probably has copies of the original birth certificates for all Hannelore's friends.  (Come to think of it, the background check for a high level security clearance here in the real world could actually drill down that far.)

We're also talkin' about the dossier that was completely wrong and out of date.

This line of thinking is foolishness pulled directly from JohnA's ass. It's nonsense.

Regarding the concert analogy: yeah, I changed it to an analogy that's more accurate to the situation being discussed, 'cause the original analogy didn't match the topic.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: BenRG on 08 Dec 2017, 23:25
Question - Why would Tilly have a section dedicated to Hanner's friend's relationships?

Manipulation and control of Hannelore. Remember: the dossier was probably prepared at Beatrice's instructions. If she knows everything about her daughter's friends, she knows how to manipulate and, if necessary, coerce them into helping drive Hannelore down the path she wants from her.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: brasca on 08 Dec 2017, 23:28
Tilly, do something interesting instead of wearing Hannelore to a frazzle. Winslow, you're not helping.

How can Hannelore ever expect to run her mother’s company if she can’t even handle an over eager subordinate?  In this capacity I think Tilly will compel her to overcome a lot of her remaining psychological obstacles.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: hakko504 on 08 Dec 2017, 23:52
Question - Why would Tilly have a section dedicated to Hanner's friend's relationships?
Why not? The dossier was probably supposed to contain everything about Hannelore and the people she interacts with.
Question the second - How on earth would anyone know that Claire was Trans? The only ones who know (if I recall correctly) are her mother, Clinton, Marten and Emily. Its not been something Claire has been particularly shouting from the rooftops about.
Pintsize was told in 3185 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3185), and in 3337 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3337) she told Bubbles. However, it seems from the following pages that she had still not told Faye at that point, and I don't find any mention of that later, so presumably Faye still doesn't know.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: pwhodges on 09 Dec 2017, 00:20
Do they even make Grape-Nuts any more? I haven't seen it in any grocery store for years, perhaps decades. I thought they must have discontinued it.

I buy them regularly - my favourite cereal, from childhood.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Storel on 09 Dec 2017, 00:32
Do they even make Grape-Nuts any more? I haven't seen it in any grocery store for years, perhaps decades. I thought they must have discontinued it.
It appears from postconsumerbrands.com (https://www.postconsumerbrands.com/brands/grape-nuts/) that they're still around.  I always imagined Saki's Filboid Studge as being something like Grape Nuts.

Oh, interesting! I guess I haven't looked in the right stores. Granted, I don't buy cereal much anyway, so it's possible that it's been in plain sight without my noticing.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Bad Superman on 09 Dec 2017, 02:58
The longer this Tilly-debacle continues, the more I wonder where this storyline is going...

Currently I can only see two ways for this arc to end:

1.: Tilly convinces Hannelore (somehow) that they are indeed a useful PA.
Of course this would make Tilly and Hannelore a not-quite-literal pair of siamese twins. But to what end? What's the goal here? Is there an interesting story ahead, that I just fail to see? And also, will ALL QC characters just accept Tillys nerve-wrecking behaviour? In case of Faye I highly doubt that and I think Dora isn't too fond of them either. So, for me, I just don't see how Tilly would fit in with the rest of the cast, and also I don't see anything interesting for them to do.

2.: Tilly fails (hopefully).
But then what? It has already been pointed out that Tilly seems to be here to stay, but with what function to fulfill within the comic? Will they become just another stray the QC crew adopts, after they get fired? (Because, just transferring them to a new... "victim"... would remove them from the comic, wouldn't it?) Will Tilly, as others have suggested, put their skills to use for Dora or maybe even for Faye and Bubbles (which in any case would require a radical change of attitude on Tillys part... if they want to live...)? I don't know, and to be honest, I don't find any of those scenarios appealing.


Any thoughts on that?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: zzyzx on 09 Dec 2017, 04:49


Currently I can only see two ways for this arc to end:

...
2.: Tilly fails (hopefully).
But then what? It has already been pointed out that Tilly seems to be here to stay, but with what function to fulfill within the comic? Will they become just another stray the QC crew adopts, after they get fired? (Because, just transferring them to a new... "victim"... would remove them from the comic, wouldn't it?) Will Tilly, as others have suggested, put their skills to use for Dora or maybe even for Faye and Bubbles (which in any case would require a radical change of attitude on Tillys part... if they want to live...)? I don't know, and to be honest, I don't find any of those scenarios appealing.


Maybe there are then consequences that Hannelore has to deal with. This could be a setup for a confrontation between her and her mom.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: lawoot on 09 Dec 2017, 05:41
Do they even make Grape-Nuts any more? I haven't seen it in any grocery store for years, perhaps decades. I thought they must have discontinued it.
It appears from postconsumerbrands.com (https://www.postconsumerbrands.com/brands/grape-nuts/) that they're still around.  I always imagined Saki's Filboid Studge as being something like Grape Nuts.

Oh, interesting! I guess I haven't looked in the right stores. Granted, I don't buy cereal much anyway, so it's possible that it's been in plain sight without my noticing.
Usually on the top shelf, with all the other "It's good for you / kids won't like it" cereals.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Thrudd on 09 Dec 2017, 12:25
Okay - I abstained as best I could and did the rest of this weeks strips in one go.
That did not help at all.

I have this underlying déjà vu feeling and was wracking my brain trying to figure out why and then it hit me - George Lucas.
He was enamored with Jar Jar. Unfortunately he had nobody to rein him in like in the first trilogy.
Like Jar Jar my guess is that there is a perfectly valid and interesting history and story arc for the character but the depiction up till now has been far short of what we have come to expect from him.
The pendulum has swung and hopefully it shall swing back sooner than latter.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: hakko504 on 09 Dec 2017, 12:37
I have this underlying déjà vu feeling and was wracking my brain trying to figure out why and then it hit me - George Lucas.
He was enamored with Jar Jar. Unfortunately he had nobody to rein him in like in the first trilogy.
Like Jar Jar my guess is that there is a perfectly valid and interesting history and story arc for the character but the depiction up till now has been far short of what we have come to expect from him.
I take it you have only seen the movies and not the animated TV series The Clone Wars where Jar Jar is developed in a much better way. Still mostly comic relief but also with a much better understanding of his character and motivations.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Tova on 09 Dec 2017, 16:58
Fools. Tilly was clearly planted by Beatrice, with the incorrect name "Taffy" planted in Hanners' mind to increase her sympathy for them. Further, it is clear from the increasing number of people whom the group have "adopted," such as Brun, that Beatrice has planted them all. This is all possible because Beatrice has subtly been manipulating their lives through the use of nano-machines invented by scientists that she first enslaved and later killed to hide the evidence.

Ultimately, Hanners will come to see how persecuted all of these friends are by the world, and she will gradually come to realise that the only way that she can make the world a better place is to take control of it. Towards the end, Marten will realise what is happening and try to intervene, but Beatrice will trick Hanners into thinking Marten is evil, and Beatrice will kill him. With force lightning.

Hanners will thus inherit Beatrice's business, and Beatrice's evil plans will come to fruition.

Beatrice probably eats pineapple and ham pizza, too. Monster.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Thrudd on 09 Dec 2017, 16:59
No. I have seen the animated series but I take that as a band-aid on Lucas's bruised ego at that time between the last two films where the hastily written in count for the second film didn't quite pan all that well with the fans after the Jar Jar debacle in the first film.

There is a whole library of material written about what was done, could have been done, and what may have been happening behind the scenes but George and his precious ego will never come clean - my bet is that he destroyed all evidence of the original story-line and made everyone in the know sign nondisclosure's.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 09 Dec 2017, 17:48
Beatrice probably eats pineapple and ham pizza, too. Monster.

Hey now, there's nothing wrong with a ham and pineapple pizza! Its tasty!
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 09 Dec 2017, 18:18
When I think "manipulative" I'm thinking of the suicide threat.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Case on 09 Dec 2017, 18:52
When I think "manipulative" I'm thinking of the suicide threat.

?

When? Who?

Ah! (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3617) I saw that as so OTT that it didn't register.

Hmmmh - TBH, I'm not sure what to think now. On the one hand: Yeah, that's major-league fucked up. That's the point where I'd definitely involve authorities, and make sure they have my exhaustive statement on record, including my express wish that Tilly please neverever contact me again in this life or any other.

Otoh, I can't really picture Jeph as casually going over something like that like it's no big deal - so ... it has to be OTT, right?

Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to learn to type faster, or go to bed.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Penquin47 on 09 Dec 2017, 19:00
When I think "manipulative" I'm thinking of the suicide threat.

?

When? Who?

Tilly, here (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3617).  Whether you actually take it as a suicide threat or not, it's easy to see where it comes off as manipulative, especially given their willingness to call the cops on themself earlier.

Re: Tilly telling Marten they're nonbinary to gain favor with him: I didn't see anywhere in the theory that said they were faking it, just that's why they hadn't brought it up with Hanners or Winslow or Dora but it was one of the first things out of their mouth with Marten.  I still don't buy the theory - mostly because why should Tilly care that much about gaining favor with Marten?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: cloudatlatl on 09 Dec 2017, 19:08
There is a whole library of material written about what was done, could have been done, and what may have been happening behind the scenes but George and his precious ego will never come clean - my bet is that he destroyed all evidence of the original story-line and made everyone in the know sign nondisclosure's.

The original story, like where Jar Jar was supposed to be Sith Lord?
It's an interesting theory and here's a video about it if anyone is curious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yy3q9f84EA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yy3q9f84EA)
As for Tilly... I see how they might be Jeph's Jar Jar in a way, but I don't think Jeph writes with the kind of grand themes and sweeping circular storylines that George Lucas does - in fact, I think a lot of the charm in Jeph's best writing comes from the fact that he doesn't plan out a lot in advance, he just lets his characters loose and looks for how they would naturally react to things.

Addendum: While a lack of story planning has given us some nice surprises, I think that's also why QC has been in Tilly purgatory for a month
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: shanejayell on 10 Dec 2017, 05:32
The 'Help or Die' tat had me going 0_o
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: BenRG on 10 Dec 2017, 14:43
Poll Results Post
Rate The Cutie - What do you think of Tilly?

10 - Best character in the strip to date! - 1 (1.1%)
9 - Not perfect but is someone doing interesting, useful and funny things - 1 (1.1%)
8 - They're surprisingly good/funny/interesting - 5 (5.6%)
7 - There's potential there for doing interesting/useful/funny things in the future - 27 (30%)
6 - Ho-hum; Jeph needs to try harder if he wants me to be interested in them - 7 (7.8%)
5 - Indifferent; don't care what happens with them - 9 (10%)
4 - I really don't get what Jeph sees in them - 15 (16.7%)
3 - I tend to skip over everything they say and do to focus on other characters - 2 (2.2%)
2 - I actually get annoyed when they're in panel - 9 (10%)
1 - You'd be happier if they're never shown again - 14 (15.6%)

With a poll like this, it's misleading to go by the mode vote, the single option that attracts the most responses. Rather, I'm going to calculate the mean value by way of totalling up the products of (Option value x number of votes) and dividing the total by the number of votes made, thus giving us a mathematical average.

Based on this method, the average rating given to Tilly is: 4.8

So, rounding to the nearest integer, the Will of the Forum is that Tilly is rated at 5 - Indifferent; don't care what happens with them. In truth, that fairly matches my own view of them. There is potential but they are really getting irritating on lots of levels and I really am having a hard time forgiving how miserable they are making Hannelore.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Tova on 10 Dec 2017, 16:29
I agree that simply looking at the vote with the most votes is very misleading.

I personally feel, though, that the mode mean vote is also misleading. The results appear to show that the forumites are starkly divided into two main groups - one that sees potential in Tilly (7), and another that actively dislikes them to differing degrees (4 + 2 + 1).

Yes, the mean of those two groups is "indifferent." But it's pretty clear from reading recent posts that the majority of posters are far from indifferent.

There is potential but they are really getting irritating on lots of levels and I really am having a hard time forgiving how miserable they are making Hannelore.

That doesn't sound indifferent to me. Actually, this highlights a potential issue with the poll - you could honestly select either 7 or 2 based on the view above!

Edit: used the wrong word
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 11 Dec 2017, 06:06

To be honest, I saw the poll as a little bit weighted.
IE - Anything from 7 downward could be classed as negative (But 7 itself could be seen as semi-positive)

But, as I was a '1', I think my general feelings are plainly being reflected (in varying degrees) by the VAST majority of those who are commenting!

:)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: dutchrvl on 11 Dec 2017, 07:12
Re: Tilly telling Marten they're nonbinary to gain favor with him: I didn't see anywhere in the theory that said they were faking it, just that's why they hadn't brought it up with Hanners or Winslow or Dora but it was one of the first things out of their mouth with Marten.  I still don't buy the theory - mostly because why should Tilly care that much about gaining favor with Marten?

I was going to say that it was the first time Hanners used a female pronoun for Tilly hence giving Tilly the first opportunity to point out that they use nonbinary pornouns.

However, then I noticed that in #3614 Hanners already introduced Tilly as 'she' to Dora, and Tilly made no attempt to offer the information about their preference of nonbinary pronouns, nor did they correct Dora when the latter immediately used a female pronoun for Tilly.

So, I think there is a distinct possibility that Tilly did to some extent premeditate when and with whom to introduce the pronoun subject.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Cornelius on 11 Dec 2017, 07:16
I'm wondering to what degree the 27 7 votes just reflect a faith in Jeph knowing where he wants go.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 11 Dec 2017, 09:21
I'm wondering to what degree the 27 7 votes just reflect a faith in Jeph knowing where he wants go.

Or hoping against hope that it'll get better...
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 3626 to 3630 (4th to 8th December 2017)
Post by: Technoir on 11 Dec 2017, 10:07
Winslow: "I'm jealous. Sharpie just wipes right of me".

So the question of the "spray" I mentioned previously seems to be settled...

Perhaps Winslow's dermal coating is a different material than Punkbot's?  Winslow could have some sort of graphite or teflon based polycoating that prevents stains or defacement...