Jeph Jacques's comics discussion forums

Comic Discussion => QUESTIONABLE CONTENT => Topic started by: jwhouk on 18 Feb 2018, 19:52

Title: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: jwhouk on 18 Feb 2018, 19:52
No thread? I am shocked, shocked, I tell you...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Case on 18 Feb 2018, 20:36
FFS Dale! What ...? How do you ...? I ...!!! You ... IDIOT!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: zisraelsen on 18 Feb 2018, 20:47
My reaction to this strip was "I sure am glad Dale picked up on Marigold's jealousy from last strip! Hopefully he can Oh No Dale Stop"
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: QuestionableIntentions on 18 Feb 2018, 21:05
So after Marigold's many screw ups now it's his turn.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: OldGoat on 18 Feb 2018, 21:14
Dale's fundamental decency as a human being sometimes masks the fact that he, too, is a total and absolute nerd completely lacking instinctual understanding of social interactions.  But he can and will learn.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: shanejayell on 18 Feb 2018, 21:20
I just realized his glasses were glowing because he was checking online while he was talking to her.

DALE, THE INTERNET IS NOT FOR RELATIONSHIP HELP!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 18 Feb 2018, 21:32
Okay, now I'm hoping for a Momo intervention.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: A Duck on 18 Feb 2018, 21:36
Wow. I knew Dale was most likely gonna screw this up, but... WOW.

Damn.

That is gonna take some work to fix.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: brasca on 18 Feb 2018, 22:15
I can sympathize with Dale to a point, but he’s been with Marigold long enough to of her insecurities.  He really should’ve exercised more tact.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 18 Feb 2018, 22:19
All he had to say in panel 2 was, "'Cause you're the one I love, not her!" But that would have been quite a short story arc.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: hedgie on 18 Feb 2018, 22:32
I can sympathize with Dale to a point, but he’s been with Marigold long enough to of her insecurities.  He really should’ve exercised more tact.

This *is* the guy who couldn't find a way to work up the nerve to just talk to her and so stalked her in WoW as an attempt at flirtation.  Without the intervention of May and Momo, they wouldn't even be together in the first place.  Out of Dale's virtues, being socially astute is not one of them.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 18 Feb 2018, 23:13
This is probably the biggest crisis that Dale and Marigold have had, although far from an unprecedented one. As has been exhaustively discussed in last week's thread, Marigold is very insecure about Dale's feelings for her and very insecure about her own self-worth. Because of that, they have had rough patches we've seen with her acting on her insecurity in a way that Dale would have been justified in taking as a red flag. In her defence, I can't imagine how Dale could have handled this worse. In fact, the way he put it suggests that, yes, he does find Emily attractive. However, that doesn't mean that he's planning on acting on it ever.

Ultimately, I empathise with Dale, also being bad at considering how my listeners may feel before I blurt out something. I wonder if he frantically had tried to plan out something in his mind only for Marigold not to react in accord with this imaginings, thus leaving him high and dry?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Mordhaus on 18 Feb 2018, 23:45
When speaking with an upset woman, less is more. I try to keep it to 3 words or fewer.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: gopher on 18 Feb 2018, 23:51
Even the most secure, long term relationship with people who are experienced and knowledgeable in and about love would suffer to survive this kind of "honesty" , for two people in their first it could be terminal.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Castlerook on 19 Feb 2018, 00:29
And for his next trick, Dale will shove his other foot into his mouth.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: oddtail on 19 Feb 2018, 00:30
I'm facepalming so hard right now =D

The funny thing is, it's all about phrasing. Literally everything he said could've been rephrased in a way that'd be reassuring instead of upsetting and mildly insulting.

Dale doesn't have to shower her with compliments, he just has to say whatever he has to say in a slightly less... "she's better than you in every way" manner.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: cucumber error on 19 Feb 2018, 00:41
Even though these two aren't the most, um, socially adept individuals, I'm surprised they're this bad at talking to each other. They've been together since before this time jump (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3136), so at least 6 months and possibly longer (are there other time jumps I'm forgetting?). Surely there have been a few tiffs to learn from in that time.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: traroth on 19 Feb 2018, 01:00
Is QC turning into a silliness contest?

I mean, we all are oblivious sometimes, or say something inappropriate we regret later. But not everybody all the time!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 19 Feb 2018, 01:20
Even though these two aren't the most, um, socially adept individuals, I'm surprised they're this bad at talking to each other.

I can't help but wonder if, normally they don't communicate much verbally at all. It's possible that their interactions are normally to playing games, watching (and critiquing) animé and sex. They've never really got to the point where they discuss feelings for each other, outside of reassuring each other that any doubts the other has are silly.

Basically, their relationship is that of a pair of dating teenagers. Maybe this arc is about them finding depth or just quitting because it's becoming too hard to maintain (let alone progress) the relationship any further.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: traroth on 19 Feb 2018, 01:27
All he had to say in panel 2 was, "'Cause you're the one I love, not her!" But that would have been quite a short story arc.

To me, what happened is also a short story arc. I can't see any relationship recovering from what just happened.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: SpanielBear on 19 Feb 2018, 02:24
Last week Dale stepped on a landmine.

This week he jumps up and down on it.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 19 Feb 2018, 02:57
All he had to say in panel 2 was, "'Cause you're the one I love, not her!" But that would have been quite a short story arc.

To me, what happened is also a short story arc. I can't see any relationship recovering from what just happened.

Relationships have recovered from more dire straits than these.

I'm not putting any money down, mind...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: DaiJB on 19 Feb 2018, 03:03
Last week Dale stepped on a landmine.

This week he jumps up and down on it.

 :laugh:

Last week, Dale heard the "click" and belatedly realized he was in a minefield.

This week, he quickly looked up "How to defuse landmines" on Google and said to himself "This shouldn't be too hard..."

Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: pwhodges on 19 Feb 2018, 03:14
Cheating leads to a breakdown of trust which is commonly irrecoverable; misunderstanding is comparatively easy to correct, though care may be required; suspicion, as in this case, falls in between.

Yes, this is recoverable; but yes, Dale needs to do some serious work to get there.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 19 Feb 2018, 03:16
All he had to say in panel 2 was, "'Cause you're the one I love, not her!" But that would have been quite a short story arc.

To me, what happened is also a short story arc. I can't see any relationship recovering from what just happened.

... I've BEEN in relationships that have easily survived much worse than that.

Idk. Yeah, he probably worded it badly, and she is being irrationally jealous, but to be honest, this doesn't seem like nearly as big of a deal as people seem to be making it out to be in the thread to me.

EDIT: Also, people need to get over the fact that more than likely, your SO doesn't think you are the most attractive person, the smartest person, the funniest person, the most whatever person on the planet. Maybe it comes from being poly myself, but it just seems like a really unhealthy thing to expect.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: brightwings00 on 19 Feb 2018, 03:33
Quote
EDIT: Also, people need to get over the fact that more than likely, your SO doesn't think you are the most attractive person, the smartest person, the funniest person, the most whatever person on the planet. Maybe it comes from being poly myself, but it just seems like a really unhealthy thing to expect.

What does being poly have to do with it? Genuine question.

And sure, I know I'm not Lupita N'yongo or Manny Jacinto, but how does my SO telling me that lead to anything supportive or productive? Attractiveness is all subjective, anyways. If what my SO had to say about my looks was "Well, sure, she's prettier than you, but..." you can bet your butt I'd be out of there. 
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: pwhodges on 19 Feb 2018, 03:44
If what my SO had to say about my looks was "Well, sure, she's prettier than you, but..." you can bet your butt I'd be out of there.

I would ask you in turn: Why?  Isn't "prettiness" a rather arbitrary thing to feel judged over?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 19 Feb 2018, 03:48
Quote
EDIT: Also, people need to get over the fact that more than likely, your SO doesn't think you are the most attractive person, the smartest person, the funniest person, the most whatever person on the planet. Maybe it comes from being poly myself, but it just seems like a really unhealthy thing to expect.

What does being poly have to do with it? Genuine question.

And sure, I know I'm not Lupita N'yongo or Manny Jacinto, but how does my SO telling me that lead to anything supportive or productive? Attractiveness is all subjective, anyways. If what my SO had to say about my looks was "Well, sure, she's prettier than you, but..." you can bet your butt I'd be out of there.

Feels obvious to me on why being poly has to do with it? If my wife is dating someone else, I'm sure that they have at least some qualities where she prefers them over me, and the other way around, where I have some qualities she prefers over them. If she tells me what it is, it probably wouldn't phase me, as long as she still loves me, wants to be with me, then it isn't a big deal.

The thing is, I've always been a person where I'd rather have honesty than pretty lies. And there is a difference between someone telling you that out of the blue and someone responding to something you said with it.

By saying what she did, if Dale thinks that Emily is prettier than her (also notice that he did air quotes around prettier, he could have meant in a traditional sense, whereas he was going to say something about finding her more attractive regardless, we don't know because he got cut off) he is given three options: 1. Lie, which I don't think anyone should have to do in a relationship, or 2. Avoid the subject entirely, in which case Marigold is still going to have it confirmed in her head (of course, he avoided saying it, its because he believes it!) 3. Tell the truth but say it doesn't matter to how he feels (what it looked like he was doing).

People shouldn't be put in positions where they feel they have to lie in a relationship.

In my opinion, honesty in a relationship IS the best option.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: brightwings00 on 19 Feb 2018, 04:06
Quote from: pwhodges
I would ask you in turn: Why?  Isn't "prettiness" a rather arbitrary thing to feel judged over?

Quote from: Emperor Norton
By saying what she did, if Dale thinks that Emily is prettier than her (also notice that he did air quotes around prettier, he could have meant in a traditional sense, whereas he was going to say something about finding her more attractive regardless, we don't know because he got cut off) he is given three options: 1. Lie, which I don't think anyone should have to do in a relationship, or 2. Avoid the subject entirely, in which case Marigold is still going to have it confirmed in her head (of course, he avoided saying it, its because he believes it!) 3. Tell the truth but say it doesn't matter to how he feels (what it looked like he was doing).

I guess for me, it's just weird to quantify things like attractiveness and humour and intelligence, where it's like everything's on a scale and you can measure it. It'd be like saying "this apple is obviously better than this orange", only every single person on Earth is a different kind of fruit. (Maybe Emily has more of the traits society has deemed attractive--height, a thin frame, clear skin, etc.--but I think we can all agree that society has some BS expectations in the first place.) So when an SO says "Well, she's 'prettier' than you, but...", it's like a) that's not nice, helpful or useful for you to say, b) why is there a competition in the first place?

I mean, yeah, I believe Dale was getting at "you're beautiful and funny and smart to me, because you're you"--which is the important thing--but the way he worded it all was so atrocious I think even a non-chronically insecure person would be going 'what the everloving hell'.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 19 Feb 2018, 04:14
It isn't a contest. Marigold is the one making it a contest.

And despite what you say, I can't imagine you don't have friends you find funnier, friends you find more empathetic, friends you find smarter (to be fair, we usually break this down much further than just overall smart. I consider my wife to have much better language skills than me, but we both know that I'm better than her at math). It doesn't mean they are better as people, or that you care about them more or less because of it. Like you said: It isn't a competition. Not being a competition doesn't mean that we don't all have our strengths and weaknesses.

I mean, if your computer broke down (assuming of course, that you aren't the friend who is good with computers), you know which friend you would call right? It isn't a situation where all of them are equally smart.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: brightwings00 on 19 Feb 2018, 04:24
Quote from: Emperor Norton
It isn't a contest. Marigold is the one making it a contest.

And despite what you say, I can't imagine you don't have friends you find funnier, friends you find more empathetic, friends you find smarter (to be fair, we usually break this down much further than just overall smart. I consider my wife to have much better language skills than me, but we both know that I'm better than her at math). It doesn't mean they are better as people, or that you care about them more or less because of it. Like you said: It isn't a competition. Not being a competition doesn't mean that we don't all have our strengths and weaknesses.

I mean, if your computer broke down (assuming of course, that you aren't the friend who is good with computers), you know which friend you would call right? It isn't a situation where all of them are equally smart.

Marigold started it, but Dale said "You're not a super-genius" and "Well, she's 'prettier' than you, but..." He's really not helping. (It's possible I'm more sympathetic towards Marigold here because, well, I am Marigold in a lot of ways.)

And I do get what you're saying about strengths and weaknesses, but I think "good looks" and "humour" and "intelligence" are too broad as terms to be quantified as such. I mean, because one friend is good at computers doesn't mean she/he is/they are objectively smarter than the others. 
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 19 Feb 2018, 04:31
Except Emily isn't just "good with computers". She is LITERALLY a super genius. She has done stuff that goes into the Arthur C. Clarke "indistinguishable from magic" level.

Honestly, I wouldn't consider being told that I'm not as smart as someone who is clearly on a level beyond 99.999999% of humanity as an insult. And I consider my intelligence to be one of my better traits (I've never felt intellectually challenged, not even at college. Most of the challenge I've faced mentally was boredom).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 19 Feb 2018, 04:43
Ehhh, keep in mind that the only one where he actually said that Emily was better was the super genius line.

He didn't say he found her funnier, he actually said that he thought they were both funny, just in different ways. And the "prettier" line was 1. He put prettier in air quotes, and 2. cut off, so we don't know what he was going to say. It could have been about what he finds attractive vs standard beauty, or that pretty didn't matter, or any other number of things. His wording was not "I find her prettier", It was "Even if she is "prettier"...". That isn't talking about from his perspective, that is talking from a general perspective. It's also not even taking it as a given that it is true.

I do think that he is not doing that well, but he was literally put in a situation where there is almost no answer that is going to fix it. Outside of outright lying, I'm not sure there was a response that would go well. (And even if he outright lied, who knows if she would believe any of it anyway. And if she does believe it, is deceiving someone you are in a relationship really a good idea? Or he could avoid the subject, which just makes her think that he is avoiding it on purpose... because of course it is true!)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: brightwings00 on 19 Feb 2018, 04:58
Except Emily isn't just "good with computers". She is LITERALLY a super genius. She has done stuff that goes into the Arthur C. Clarke "indistinguishable from magic" level.

Honestly, I wouldn't consider being told that I'm not as smart as someone who is clearly on a level beyond 99.999999% of humanity as an insult. And I consider my intelligence to be one of my better traits (I've never felt intellectually challenged, not even at college. Most of the challenge I've faced mentally was boredom).

I get that. I do think that what we see as intelligence owes a lot to education, and upbringing, and application thereat, and cultural and sociopolitical biases, and so many different factors that it's hard to quantify people on exact scales of smartness. There's a lot of criticism out there of the IQ system, for example, by people like Stephen Jay Gould and Keith Stanovich.

I also think that for Marigold, there's an emotional difference between Dale comparing her computer skills with Emily's and her computer skills with, say, Steve Wozniak's, and that emotional difference isn't negligible--nor should it be dismissed out of hand in a healthy relationship. If you use the whole "comparison is the thief of joy" mentality, it's better to focus on what she is and what she's proud of--"you're good at x, you do x, you're x and x"--instead of what she isn't (a super-genius, as traditionally pretty as Emily), and you tell the truth in a positive way which boost hers instead of framing it in a negative way.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 19 Feb 2018, 05:13
Here is the thing, and I think it is a problem we are developing as we become more aware, and more understanding of mental issues. Yes, we need to be more empathetic to people with issues. But sometimes, I feel we are getting to the point where we give so much leeway to people with mental issues, we completely abandon empathy for the people who are having to react to it.

Dale could have reacted in any number of ways to Marigold's irrational jealousy. When he realized what it was, he could have gotten angry. I mean, to be fair, that isn't a completely unreasonable response. "I was just talking with a friend laughing, and she immediately acts like I'm cheating on her!" He could have just been like "No, I'm not dealing with this." He could have laughed because he thought it was absurd. All of those would have been reactions where I would basically just say yeah, he is kind of fucking up.

What he is trying to do is deal with it, by being honest and then... in all honesty we have no idea the and then part. Because she reacts by cutting him off, not letting him finish what he was saying (which for all we know was a list of the things he thinks are great about her), and then stomping off. (which, in my opinion, refusing to even listen to what your SO is trying to say is much worse than anything Dale is doing).

Dale was put in a near-impossible situation and was clearly trying to be sympathetic, and yet still because he didn't come up with a perfect response he is being treated as though he is socially clueless by the people on the board. This idea that he is fucking up and is at fault for trying to reassure her, even if it wasn't in the way that people think is "best" (which by the way, depends on the person, I still believe based on her personality, that avoiding responding to what she said, would just cause her to believe that he didn't respond because it is true), is bullshit.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: SpanielBear on 19 Feb 2018, 05:27
I think it's more a case of Dale doing the classic thing of answering the question that's being asked rather than the question that's implied. I don't think that's his fault or that it's something he should be castigated for, it's just that the nature of the discussion is completely different to what he first thought so he's been taken off guard. In a perfect world he'd be in tune with what his partner's red flags are and spot when they are triggered, but even the most loving of couples aren't going to get that right all the time.

At a basic level, I don't think Marigold cares whether Dale thinks she's the cleverest or funniest. What matters to Marigold is whether Dale cares for her. On an insecure level, living with the idea that someone is with you only because they haven't found someone better, with the continual paranoid belief that everyone is better than you-  I can see why Marigold would need some basic reassurance. Is that childish? Yeah, maybe. But anyone who thinks they are always adult about their emotions is in for a shock.

The point is, Dale isn't doing anything wrong, he's just being (briefly and unintentionally) emotionally illiterate- he's recognised that Marigold is jealous, but not why that is or how to resolve it. At the same time, Marigold needs to build up some emotional resilience and trust that when Dale says he likes her, he really means it. They're going to have to talk this out to grow stronger. Or else fall apart, break up, and end up having the same conflict over and over with each new partner until it finally clicks.

(Also- low self esteem =/= mental health problems. It often correlates, but isn't indicative. Not sure if that's what was being implied, but there was enough discussion last week about the risks of hasty pathologising that it seems worth mentioning here. It's fair to note that providing emotional support is hard work though.)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: BryanP on 19 Feb 2018, 05:37
I've been Dale level clueless in my life.  I turn 50 this year, so remembering my 20s accurately is a problem.

It's easy for me to say what he should have said.  Something like "She's a lot of things, including my friend, but she's not YOU." 

20 year old me probably would have said something as stupid and useless as what Dale just did.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 19 Feb 2018, 05:43
I wouldn't even consider it emotionally illiterate. I also wouldn't consider it "stupid and useless". We have no idea what his point was, or what he was about to say: She never let him finish talking.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 19 Feb 2018, 05:54
Here, let me explain more thoroughly by what I mean about a lack of sympathy for people who are having to deal with other people's mental issues (which I agree are self esteem issues are not necessarily pathological, but it is still on the list of things that we generally fall into this trap over)

I've had a lot of relationships with people who have had various issues. Depression. Self-esteem. Anger. Social phobias. Sexual issues stemming from abuse.

I have struggled with depression and self-esteem in the past, but for the most part, I've worked through it. For quite a while, I've been a well-adjusted adult who has a handle on their life.

When people who have issues lash out, people excuse it based on the issues they have. They get to act badly and it "isn't their fault, they are struggling with things".

On the other hand, if you don't react perfectly to every single thing they do, you get called "emotionally illiterate" or told that the things you did are "stupid and useless." People don't say "Wow, you got put in a bad situation and you tried your best, sorry that it didn't work out, I hope things go better." The sympathy isn't there for the person who has to try his best in a shit situation, instead, they get a list of what they did wrong. It's your failing. Every single time. You are considered to have failed. I just think we need to watch how we say things like that.

Is it some projection? Of course it is. All narratives are going to have some projection. But seriously, imagine yourself in a position where you get dealt a shit hand, you try, you are cut off, you never get to even finish your thought, and all people are talking about is how "he is jumping up and down on a mine" or how dumb what he is doing is. And you can say "Well we aren't talking to someone's face, this is just a fictional situation", but how much do you want to bet at least one person reading this thread has been put in a similar situation in the past?

(I will point out, that this isn't universal in a sense. There are definitely people who fall on the other end, but I've found that, especially in the more liberal, more "aware" groups, that sympathy for people dealing with mental issues gets so high, that people who are having to try and support those people are not given nearly as much sympathy.)

EDIT, some notes to point out what I mean:

1. It was 9 posts into this thread before someone expressed anything other than Dale being incompetent. And even that was just a mention of having "some" sympathy.
2. It was 11 posts in until someone actually said anything resembling that this was a difficult position he was put in, and even in that post the person describes things as "I still can't imagine how he could have reacted worse" (paraphrased).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: ckridge on 19 Feb 2018, 06:16
We are a bunch of web comic fans discussing niceties of social behavior in an internet chat room. This is pretty much like a nest of naked mole rats discussing aerodynamics. None of us are likely to have any of this right.

That said, this sounds right to me:

I think it's more a case of Dale doing the classic thing of answering the question that's being asked rather than the question that's implied. I don't think that's his fault or that it's something he should be castigated for, it's just that the nature of the discussion is completely different to what he first thought so he's been taken off guard. In a perfect world he'd be in tune with what his partner's red flags are and spot when they are triggered, but even the most loving of couples aren't going to get that right all the time.

At a basic level, I don't think Marigold cares whether Dale thinks she's the cleverest or funniest. What matters to Marigold is whether Dale cares for her.

That nails it. The thing to say here is not whether, how, or in what respect Marigold is better or worse than Emily. The thing to say is that you like Marigold better than Emily. Then you say, not why you like her better, but how you like her better. You fuck saying it up completely, because you did not rehearse for this, but you reel forward blushing, sweating, and stammering, because your sweetie is suffering because of how she feels about you, and this is what you can do to help. With a little luck you get credit for having the right feelings though no ability to express them, and she feels better. What matters is that she should feel better. The whole concept here is that you care about how she feels.

I am coming down harder on Dale than on Marigold, because I have no idea how to be a good girlfriend but have studied on being a decent boyfriend. One reason he is messing up is because he can't quite believe that anyone would care about his feelings, and so is trying to speak of what is objectively the case. That is an easy mistake to make, but you don't have to make it.

You get an awful lot of second chances at this work, though. He can fix this if he thinks carefully what to do next.

Says the naked mole rat, speaking from his vast, Casanova-like experience of aerodynamics.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: brightwings00 on 19 Feb 2018, 06:22
Quote from: Emperor Norton
Here, let me explain more thoroughly by what I mean about a lack of sympathy for people who are having to deal with other people's mental issues (which I agree are self esteem issues are not necessarily pathological, but it is still on the list of things that we generally fall into this trap over)

=snip--no offence intended, just wanted to reply to the whole post=

Thing is (what I'd argue),

a) I honestly don't know if Marigold's putting Dale on the defensive so much as seeking validation. There's "So you like working with Emily, huh" and "What were you laughing about as I came in?", but that doesn't quite read to me as an accusation. I think if she was accusing him of cheating there would be a lot more of "How much time do you spend together?" and "You think she's pretty, huh? Tell me more". It looks like she wants reassurance, primarily, and when Dale doesn't provide it she storms off in a huff--which no, definitely not an ideal response, but, well, she feels hurt and upset, and if Dale's not allowed to be perfect than Marigold's allowed to not be perfect, too.

b) There is (depressingly often) a dynamic at play where people--guys, primarily--get away with being tactless or thoughtless or socially illiterate under the guise of "just being honest" or "I'm only being logical" or "oh, they're just like that", and other people--primarily girls--are expected to pick up the emotional labour. I don't think anyone expects Dale to be perfect at reading people's feelings, but I also kind of hope "don't your SO they're not as pretty/smart/nice/funny as x person" would be social literacy 101.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: brightwings00 on 19 Feb 2018, 06:24
That nails it. The thing to say here is not whether, how, or in what respect Marigold is better or worse than Emily. The thing to say is that you like Marigold better than Emily. Then you say, not why you like her better, but how you like her better. You fuck saying it up completely, because you did not rehearse for this, but you reel forward blushing, sweating, and stammering, because your sweetie is suffering because of how she feels about you, and this is what you can do to help. With a little luck you get credit for having the right feelings though no ability to express them, and she feels better. What matters is that she should feel better. The whole concept here is that you care about how she feels.

That's the nicest thing I've ever heard a naked mole rat say.  :-)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 19 Feb 2018, 06:43
Quote from: Emperor Norton
Here, let me explain more thoroughly by what I mean about a lack of sympathy for people who are having to deal with other people's mental issues (which I agree are self esteem issues are not necessarily pathological, but it is still on the list of things that we generally fall into this trap over)

=snip--no offence intended, just wanted to reply to the whole post=

Thing is (what I'd argue),

a) I honestly don't know if Marigold's putting Dale on the defensive so much as seeking validation. There's "So you like working with Emily, huh" and "What were you laughing about as I came in?", but that doesn't quite read to me as an accusation. I think if she was accusing him of cheating there would be a lot more of "How much time do you spend together?" and "You think she's pretty, huh? Tell me more". It looks like she wants reassurance, primarily, and when Dale doesn't provide it she storms off in a huff--which no, definitely not an ideal response, but, well, she feels hurt and upset, and if Dale's not allowed to be perfect than Marigold's allowed to not be perfect, too.

b) There is (depressingly often) a dynamic at play where people--guys, primarily--get away with being tactless or thoughtless or socially illiterate under the guise of "just being honest" or "I'm only being logical" or "oh, they're just like that", and other people--primarily girls--are expected to pick up the emotional labour. I don't think anyone expects Dale to be perfect at reading people's feelings, but I also kind of hope "don't your SO they're not as pretty/smart/nice/funny as x person" would be social literacy 101.

A second note, in combination of it being 9 posts before anything other than Dale is incompetent being posted in this thread: When the comic was posted that showed that Marigold was clearly jealous because Dale was having fun with a coworker, the first post had 0 accusations against Marigold, and the second post included both sympathy for Marigold in the situation and sympathy for Dale. Marigold is irrationally jealous = sympathy, Dale doesn't react perfectly = post after post about how incompetent he is.

And bringing gender into it muddies the water a lot more. A man with low self-esteem who reacts to their girlfriend enjoying the company of a male coworker with irrational jealousy would be considered literally dangerous. (There is also a lot to say about men having been culturally indoctrinated to bottle up their issues, solve every problem, and to try and never be a burden to their significant other with their emotions).

And again: The only area where he actually confirmed what she said was Emily's intelligence, which is in the level of literal super genius. He said they were both funny in different ways. The comment on prettier was in air quotes, wasn't taking it as a given that it was the case, and he never even finished his sentence so we have no idea what he was going to say. And again, she put him in the situation of having to respond to it, as even not acknowledging she said it is a response, which is an incredibly hard situation to be in.

Also a note on the whole burden of emotional labor: Everyone is talking about what Dale needs to do to fix this. Why is this being put solely on him to fix?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: SpanielBear on 19 Feb 2018, 07:12
I specifically said that Marigold has to put in work to fix this.

I also think that in a lot of cases (and most definately mine, a naked mole-rat as romantically aerodynamic as a concrete donkey) the reason people focus on what Dale should have said is because we have all been there, and have spent quite a lot of time since then replaying that moment over in our heads going "I wish I'd said x". So when you see someone else falling down that rabbit hole, you watch through your fingers and go "Oh Dale... sweety, no. This is going to end sooo badly".

'Cause the other thing to bear in mind is that Dale also has the easier job when it comes to self-examination after the fact (easier, not easy). He just has a conversation to reflect on, and to think "well maybe she meant this". Marigold is going to have to recognise that her emotions and self-esteem issues are causing huge problems for her, before she can start to move beyond them. We're talking a major shake-up of her world view, which is a pretty big task. It's also a pretty specific problem- lots of people will be where Dale is, not as many will be where Marigold is. And if they are, a) they may, like her, not realise it or b) its not the kind of problem that one can point out how to fix in a pithy forum post.

You are right that men get pressured to always appear emotionally strong, and showing vulnerability is seen as weakness, that's true. But I don't think it's unbalanced to note that Dale's response, while honest, wasn't the one Marigold wanted to hear. That really isn't Dale's fault, but it's still the case that there are ways to navigate the conversation that wouldn't have resulted in Marigold exploding. My point about Dale's emotional literacy, or lack of it, is that I don't think he intended to make Marigold upset but due to misreading the situation he did anyway.

As a final point, I can't stress enough that I don't think Dale is a bad dude. He's still as decent a guy now as he was last week. Marigold has been sitting on her self-esteem issues for *years*, and been using physical intimacy with Dale as a sticking plaster at best. This is her problem. Dale is well within his rights to say "fuck it" to the whole thing because he doesn't have to put up with her issues. That's a fair choice, and he deserves credit if he sticks around for the hard part. But if Dale wants to be supportive (which I think he does), there are things that will help and things that wont. Learning which is which is his job.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 19 Feb 2018, 07:18
I think that the idea that there was necessarily a way he could have navigated it that wouldn't have led to her exploding is assuming things we will never know. She was ready to explode before he even realized there was a problem.

If he had just expressed his feelings for her, or had just started listing things he liked about her, she could have exploded because she assumed he was avoiding the commenting directly on what she said because he DID think she was prettier, funnier, smarter.

If he told her he thought she was prettier, smarter, and funnier, Marigold could have exploded because she assumes he is lying to her.

The idea that there was a right answer is an assumption. She was already angry, and angry people don't tend to even listen to what people are saying. I'm not sold on the idea that there was something he could have said that would have made the situation turn out better.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: SpanielBear on 19 Feb 2018, 07:23
The idea that there was a right answer is an assumption. She was already angry, and angry people don't tend to even listen to what people are saying. I'm not sold on the idea that there was something he could have said that would have made the situation turn out better.

Fair enough. It's true to say that there may not have been a good answer. But I do think that in the list of possible answers the one he gave, even incomplete, was particularly ill-adapted for the environment and thus would probably not have succeeded.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Dal Gurak on 19 Feb 2018, 07:50
I guess for me, it's just weird to quantify things like attractiveness and humour and intelligence, where it's like everything's on a scale and you can measure it. It'd be like saying "this apple is obviously better than this orange", only every single person on Earth is a different kind of fruit.

It might be easier to think in terms of cars rather than fruit - that's always helped me with these things.  Different models, brands, options, parts; but also, different reasons for being built in the first place.  This one is made to be safe and careful - this one is flashy and pretty and fast - this one is made for working hard.  On the one hand it's still hard to compare in a lot of cases - whether the big pickup or the little compact is better depends on what you want out of the vehicle.  But on the other, yes, you can judge overall quality.  Better ones will cost more, but pay too little and it'll be something broken down that will need tons of maintenance.  Some of them aren't fit for the road in any way and will never be driven.  And some, while not objectively better than others in a measurable way, will always be popular just because there's something about them that people really like.  And none of this is bad.  It's not pretty for people like me who fall into the 'junkheap' category, but overall it's pretty accurate on how people handle these things.  Consider when someone has a bad vehicle but paints it, does some superficial work, and lies about it in order to sell it just long enough to get the buyer stuck with it. 

Anyway, probably beating the metaphor to death, but when asked "Why didn't you buy Car X instead of Car Y?" the answer hopefully is "Because I didn't want Car X"  It's a good make, nothing wrong with it, but it's not what you wanted.  Doesn't have to be a logical reason behind it or a set of numbers - there can be, but it can be as simple as "This is the one I like."
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: HiFranc on 19 Feb 2018, 09:16
Dale, here's a slightly better approach:
http://www.sandraandwoo.com/2010/05/13/0164-tipping-point/
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: NemesisDancer on 19 Feb 2018, 10:40
Firstly, Marigold's face in the second panel reminded me of Anne Bronte in this comic (http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=202).

I'm in agreement with a lot of the points being made by Emperor Norton and SpanielBear; I don't think Dale's an "idiot" for upsetting Marigold, and that it's largely just his inexperience showing through. While a more confident partner may have appreciated his honesty, Marigold's lack of confidence means she's more likely to interpret Dale's favourable view of Emily as an indication that she herself is inferior. Having been in Dale's position before, I can sympathise with him, and I hope that both he and Marigold are able to get their points of view across to each other to avoid any misunderstandings.


I can't help but wonder if, normally they don't communicate much verbally at all. It's possible that their interactions are normally to playing games, watching (and critiquing) animé and sex. They've never really got to the point where they discuss feelings for each other, outside of reassuring each other that any doubts the other has are silly.

^ I think BenRG is definitely on to something with this interpretation - I had one or two relationships like this myself when I was younger (with people who were heavily into video games, similarly to Dale and Marigold, as it happens) - so I think their issues with communicating are largely down to inexperience, not just with romantic relationships but with interpersonal communication in general. Whether they're able to deal with their issues will depend on whether they're able to talk to each other on a more personal level as well as about interests they have in common.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 19 Feb 2018, 10:43
@HiFranc

Eh, it looks like a better approach because it was written to work.

Also, keep in mind that Dale wasn't actually allowed to finish what he was saying.

If the girl had cut him off after saying the bit in Panel 2 and walked off, would you still think it was a better approach? The exclamation marks indicate that he is raising his voice, and most of it sounds like an accusation of her being unfair to him. Without the 3rd panel to clean it up, it could definitely look a lot worse.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 19 Feb 2018, 12:44
I think it's more a case of Dale doing the classic thing of answering the question that's being asked rather than the question that's implied.

I don't agree that he answered the question being asked, actually. All he did was reaffirm that, yes, Emily is smarter, prettier, and at least as funny. That's not answering the question, it's just reiterating all the reasons Marigold asked it.

Why wouldn't I be jealous?

Maybe he would have got there eventually, but to someone as insecure as Marigold, it would have sounded an awful lot like he was scrabbling for an answer.

Dale, here's a slightly better approach:
http://www.sandraandwoo.com/2010/05/13/0164-tipping-point/

Just the third panel, yes.

edited: for clarity
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: OldGoat on 19 Feb 2018, 14:43
I can sympathize with Dale to a point, but he’s been with Marigold long enough to of her insecurities.  He really should’ve exercised more tact.
But he's an ubernerd - he doesn't know how.

I've been in Dale's shoes more that a couple times myself.  People who are born understanding The Rules can't understand how they'er not obvious to everyone, and they'll punish the nerd for not having their in-born understanding.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: anonymsly on 19 Feb 2018, 16:03
I don't know, I think I'm almost completely on Dale's side here - while both sides need to apologize, his side is a simpler one apologizing for clumsiness, whereas Marigold should be apologizing for what amounts to unconscious malice.

Dale tried to address Marigold's current upset in a very clumsy and ineffective way, once he'd realized what said upset actually was. He definitely needs to apologize for his bad phrasing, after figuring out how to properly say 'but she's not my girlfriend who I love, and you are'. And, you know, saying it.

Marigold saw Dale thoroughly platonically interacting with another human being in a friendly way and immediately leaped to 'incipient jealous rage.' To me, this is much, much worse because I can see it becoming some very controlling and problematic behavior if not checked somehow, in the realm of controlling who Dale is allowed to see or speak to. Also the lack of trust her reaction betrays ('Of COURSE he's been lying to me and just waiting to throw me over for a relative stranger') seems like a fundamental issue.  Marigold has just shown, to me at least, that she has zero trust in Dale, has never had any trust in him, and doesn't appear interested in developing any.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 19 Feb 2018, 16:25
Welcome, new person!

I am completely on both of their sides. I hope Dale will get better at communicating what he feels, and that Marigold develops some more self-confidence and trust in the relationship. It's reasonable that the latter will take some time to develop. I wouldn't say she's uninterested in developing trust. But trust isn't something you can just flick on like a switch, especially if you're feeling vulnerable. Trust is earned over time.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: snufflebottoms on 19 Feb 2018, 16:35
I wouldn't even consider it emotionally illiterate. I also wouldn't consider it "stupid and useless". We have no idea what his point was, or what he was about to say: She never let him finish talking.

I wouldn't have either. It's not like he's an evil person or anything but honestly, I get why Marigold was jealous and insecure.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Zebediah on 19 Feb 2018, 16:42
I’ve already mentioned my hope for a “Momo to the rescue” strip in this arc, and it’s looking increasingly likely. But there’s also room for a “May to the rescue” moment as well.

Momo will sit Marigold down and explain to her in calm rational terms exactly how she’s being an idiot, because that’s how Momo rolls. Meanwhile May will hear Dale’s side of the story and say “You said what? You fucked up big time, dude. Better go apologize.” Because May really cares about Dale, in her own obnoxious vulgar way.

Sometimes an outside perspective is just what you need.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: dilbert719 on 19 Feb 2018, 17:08
(also notice that he did air quotes around prettier

While my first reaction to all of this was "Dale, you are thick as pig****," combined with a healthy dose of "Marigold, CALM THE **** DOWN," the one thing I did want to raise is about the air quotes thing.

Sure, Dale may have been intending to turn the phrase at that point, and the air quote was supposed to help him with that, but (barring a particular reason why they might not be capable) even the most oblivious nerd should be intuitively aware that hand gestures that cannot be seen cannot be interpreted, and Marigold's back was to him. If he's going to say something that requires some sort of gesture, he needs to either get in front of Marigold or find some other way to say it.

I'm just hoping that this proves to be relatively easy for them to get over, mainly because jealous insecurity already ended Marten and Dora's relationship, and I'd be more interested in seeing the strip explore new territory rather than mining old ground again.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Smallest on 19 Feb 2018, 18:35
(also notice that he did air quotes around prettier

While my first reaction to all of this was "Dale, you are thick as pig****," combined with a healthy dose of "Marigold, CALM THE **** DOWN," the one thing I did want to raise is about the air quotes thing.

Sure, Dale may have been intending to turn the phrase at that point, and the air quote was supposed to help him with that, but (barring a particular reason why they might not be capable) even the most oblivious nerd should be intuitively aware that hand gestures that cannot be seen cannot be interpreted, and Marigold's back was to him. If he's going to say something that requires some sort of gesture, he needs to either get in front of Marigold or find some other way to say it.

I'm just hoping that this proves to be relatively easy for them to get over, mainly because jealous insecurity already ended Marten and Dora's relationship, and I'd be more interested in seeing the strip explore new territory rather than mining old ground again.

Don't most people enunciate air quotes though? Not in a 'quote unquote' way, but like, saying it in a slightly deeper, not-quite-sarcastic voice?

I'm not saying Marigold would necessarily pick up on that either, but it's not like it's a silent punctuation.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Thrudd on 19 Feb 2018, 19:28
Marbear needs an intervention  :psyduck:
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 19 Feb 2018, 21:04
COMIC

And it's a Maytervention! And her expression in panel 3 alone was worth the price of admission.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: OldGoat on 19 Feb 2018, 21:08
"Hey, assfuck."  Was Faye's vocabulary downloaded into May at the AI creche?

Poor Dale wants so badly to do it right.  Come on Universe, give the bugger a break.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: MrNumbers on 19 Feb 2018, 21:30
If they had offered one I'd have taken it!

God, I love Dale.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: zodo on 19 Feb 2018, 21:46
So is Fighter Jet Weekly porn for May?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: WoaLG on 19 Feb 2018, 22:08
So is Fighter Jet Weekly porn for May?

I was about to say "If it was, I doubt she'd be reading it where anybody could walk in." and then I remembered that it's May we're talking about, she absolutely would be reading it where anybody could walk in.

But mostly I think she's just daydreaming. One day she might actually get to be a fighter jet like she's always wanted to be.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 19 Feb 2018, 22:29
So, basically, yeah.  8-)

Also, welcome, new person!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: zisraelsen on 19 Feb 2018, 22:57
Same here, Dale.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 19 Feb 2018, 23:20
I'm pretty sure that everyone (and I mean everyone) would have taken a 'how to relationship' class if it existed and was actually worth a damn. As one or both of those criteria are never met, I'm thinking that this is simply something that you can't teach. Dale, like the rest of us, is going to have to muddle through this with the occasional blow to the head from a clue-hammer wielded by his friends.

Now, I want to talk about May's recreational reading: It's interesting to see Jeph recall that May really doesn't want to be humanoid at all. She wants to be a fighter jet and she still keeps up with what I presume is a high-performance aviation lifestyle magazine. Obviously, AIs attempting to embezzle to get a fighter drone chassis is a significant problem, given the PSA on the back page: "Don't do crime to be a plane!" It's clearly a lesson that May had to learn the hard way!

Who'd like to see May become a 'plane, maybe something like a Quinjet from the MCU, and still try to keep up with her friends?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Sullivan on 19 Feb 2018, 23:28
I voted "something else" in the poll because - where are the options about Dale?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: St.Clair on 20 Feb 2018, 00:00
Let's be honest here:
Marigold is thinking and behaving irrationally.  (She is.  Humans do that a lot.)
Dale needs to be more aware of the times and ways in which his partner is not rational, and figure out responses which take that into account.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Thrillho on 20 Feb 2018, 01:08
When speaking with an upset woman, less is more. I try to keep it to 3 words or fewer.
    • I'm wrong.
    • You're right (insert absolutely if you are in deep).
    • I'm sorry.
    • I love you.
    • Yes, Dear.

    In dire times, you can string them together, but no more than 3.

    Like, "Yes dear, you're right, I am sorry."

This isn't a warning or anything, but we don't do the whole 'women drive a car like this, men drive a car like this' nonsense on this forum.

Women and men and everyone in between are all people, with their own thoughts, opinions, values and behaviours.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Mr. Skawronska on 20 Feb 2018, 02:27
Dale REALLY needed a Momo intervention.

He got May.

Poor Dale.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Castlerook on 20 Feb 2018, 03:59
Dale REALLY needed a Momo intervention.

He got May.

Poor Dale.

Funny thing, May is exactly the person Dale needed to talk to. Momo can offer the gently gently approach with Marigold because that's what works with her. May is more straight forward in her approach because that's what will work best with Dale.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Gyrre on 20 Feb 2018, 04:40
It'd be great if there were actually a class on dating [that isn't  taught by a sleazeball].

The closest such class I can think of would be Marriage and Family, which I took in ESU's sociology department.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 20 Feb 2018, 04:43
Classes on relationships would be great, but I feel somehow that there are some things that can't be grokked until you've been there, done that, and have the scars to prove it.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 20 Feb 2018, 04:45
I think a class on dating would have to be so general that it wouldn't be that useful all in all.

Everyone is different and you need to treat them in different ways.

About the only thing I think is universal is teaching consent (which, to be honest, we could use a class on mandatory for teenagers).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: WoaLG on 20 Feb 2018, 04:53
Classes on relationships would be great, but I feel somehow that there are some things that can't be grokked until you've been there, done that, and have the scars to prove it.

I realize that this is irrelevant to the conversation, but I love that you used grokked. It's such a wonderful word and it's so rarely used.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Sullivan on 20 Feb 2018, 04:58
I'm pretty sure that everyone (and I mean everyone) would have taken a 'how to relationship' class if it existed and was actually worth a damn. As one or both of those criteria are never met, I'm thinking that this is simply something that you can't teach.

I think you can teach parts of it.

Quote
Now, I want to talk about May's recreational reading: It's interesting to see Jeph recall that May really doesn't want to be humanoid at all. She wants to be a fighter jet and she still keeps up with what I presume is a high-performance aviation lifestyle magazine. Obviously, AIs attempting to embezzle to get a fighter drone chassis is a significant problem, given the PSA on the back page: "Don't do crime to be a plane!" It's clearly a lesson that May had to learn the hard way!
The magazine being called "Fighter Jet Monthly"  says to me that its target audience is AIs who are fighter jets.

What does an AI need with a magazine? :D

I mean, can't AIs just slurp the stuff into their brains via the 'net?

It's like Star Trek Voyager's "Doctor" operating one of the computer consoles and using PADDs. He is the ship's computer, isn't he?

n.b.: Why would a magazine aimed at fighter jet AIs have that PSA on the back? Well, apparently, in the QCverse as in ours, magazine publishers know that for most special-interest  magazines, their readership is largely about wish fulfillment.

(The leading general aviation magazine in the US, Flying, has about ten times as many subscribers as there are private pilots in the US. Most readers of Playboy are middle-aged and/or relentlessly single. The vast majority of readers of the likes of Stereophile own equipment far cheaper than what that magazine commonly reviews. etc., etc. If you aim your magazine only at those who are already doing what your articles are about you severely limit your audience.)

Quote
Who'd like to see May become a 'plane, maybe something like a Quinjet from the MCU, and still try to keep up with her friends?
Maybe eventually, sure, why not?

If she had money she could probably have the experience temporarily. Just as there are "air combat joyride" companies today (see e.g. Air Combat USA (https://aircombat.com/)), I'd think the QCverse would have places that would let an AI temporarily "move into" a fighter jet - one without live ammunition, of course, and with strict override controls in place.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 20 Feb 2018, 05:06
Now, I want to talk about May's recreational reading: It's interesting to see Jeph recall that May really doesn't want to be humanoid at all. She wants to be a fighter jet and she still keeps up with what I presume is a high-performance aviation lifestyle magazine. Obviously, AIs attempting to embezzle to get a fighter drone chassis is a significant problem, given the PSA on the back page: "Don't do crime to be a plane!" It's clearly a lesson that May had to learn the hard way!

The magazine being called "Fighter Jet Monthly"  says to me that its target audience is AIs who are fighter jets.

What does an AI need with a magazine? :D

I mean, can't AIs just slurp the stuff into their brains via the 'net?

They can but several synthetics in the strip have said that there is a qualitative difference in reading compared to downloading information directly into their memory. Something to do with actually processing data as it is relayed to the short-term memory buffer via the senses.

It's like Star Trek Voyager's "Doctor" operating one of the computer consoles and using PADDs. He is the ship's computer, isn't he?

Actually he's a simulation being run by a sub-service of  the main computer. I suspect that, like QC synthetics, the Doctor was programmed to simulate human-like behaviours to reassure them. With time, his intelligence algorithm became advanced enough to have preferences and came to enjoy the sensations of manual input.

n.b.: Why would a magazine aimed at fighter jet AIs have that PSA on the back? Well, apparently, in the QCverse as in ours, magazine publishers know that for most special-interest  magazines, their readership is largely about wish fulfilment.

Precisely and that is the reason for the PSA: Synthetics who want to be 'planes may succumb to temptation so such a magazine is just the right place to remind wannabes that there are methods that are best not used to fulfil one's dreams.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Case on 20 Feb 2018, 05:34
So is Fighter Jet Weekly porn for May?

Yes

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Stoon on 20 Feb 2018, 06:11
Oh man, I'd  so have taken dating classes when I was younger.  It's too late now.  I'm so old now that women call me  "sir" when they interact with me.

There's a FAQ somewhere?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 20 Feb 2018, 06:44
Again, why the difference between a male friend and a female friend? I get not having enough time to spend with both friends and your SO, that is perfectly understandable, what I don't get it why it matters what the gender of the friend you do spend with is.

If the gender of the other friend is the same of  those to which you are normally sexually attracted, a sufficiently insecure personality may conclude that you are spending more time with them because you would prefer them as your SO than your current SO. Basically, they are a potential sexual rival, a serious instinctive red-flag in people of a monogamous type.

Typically if the other friend is of any other gender then the sense of a potential threat to the relationship is at least of a different nature, if not eliminated altogether.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: ckridge on 20 Feb 2018, 06:50
Dale: "I was just being honest."

Rant warning.

Being honest consists of not lying. It does not consist of saying anything that comes into your head that happens to be true.

End rant warning.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 20 Feb 2018, 06:56
Dale: "I was just being honest."

Rant warning.

Being honest consists of not lying. It does not consist of saying anything that comes into your head that happens to be true.

End rant warning.

When you are put in a situation in which your options are to respond with honesty, avoid the topic, or lie outright, an argument could be made that avoiding the topic could be considered lying by omission.

I mean, it is entirely possible to be deceptive without actually saying anything false.

I honestly feel as though people are treating it like Dale brought this up unprovoked, rather than being put in an incredibly tricky situation that was in no way his fault.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: ckridge on 20 Feb 2018, 07:36

When you are put in a situation in which your options are to respond with honesty, avoid the topic, or lie outright, an argument could be made that avoiding the topic could be considered lying by omission.

I mean, it is entirely possible to be deceptive without actually saying anything false.

I honestly feel as though people are treating it like Dale brought this up unprovoked, rather than being put in an incredibly tricky situation that was in no way his fault.

Again, responding with honesty is not saying the first true thing that comes into your head. Any meaningful utterance not a lie is honest. You can respond honestly to what is troubling the person rather than to what they say. You can say only the part of what is true that will be of use to them. You can speak kindly, courteously, persuasively, comfortingly, and lovingly. It is a huge language, and most of it is built, not for making true statements, but for primate grooming behavior. You can use the tool for what it's built to do while remaining honest.

Dale is in a tricky situation, but there is nothing incredible about it. All affection is irrational, because it is emotion, not conclusions made on the basis of argument and evidence. Marigold has an irrational affection for Dale, and is suffering irrational fear as a result. This is not incredible, pathological, or in the slightest bit uncommon. It is part and parcel of an irrational belief that he is important, that how he feels about her is important, that it would be terrible if he went away, and that he is a great treasure that needs somehow to be protected and guarded. The problem is not that she is irrational, but that she is scared. There are ways to comfort fear. Saying the first true thing that comes into your head is not one of them.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: ckridge on 20 Feb 2018, 07:49
Nattering on endlessly, helplessly, interminably, for the love of God stop me before I natter again.

We are going to get to watch a robot advise a human on the tender passion. I think that should be a high-level Turing test. If an AI can figure out what is going on with your sweetie better than you can, it counts as a person.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 20 Feb 2018, 07:51
Look back a way and you'll realise that May has been advising Dale and Marigold (as well as acting as a mediator and wielding the clue-hammer on occasion) almost from the start of their relationship. It would be nice if Momo could acknowledge her help at some point!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: ckridge on 20 Feb 2018, 09:30
I wonder if big AIs are watching May, and if she will get to be a fighter jet someday because she has learned enough empathy to gain impulse control. I wonder how she will feel about killing people then.

I guess the happy ending would be that by that point all the other war machines were robots with essentially indestructible brain cases too, and war had become largely the sort of thing going on at the robot fights.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Castlerook on 20 Feb 2018, 10:45
So is Fighter Jet Weekly porn for May?

Yes

(click to show/hide)

DUDE! A little warning about that porn!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Case on 20 Feb 2018, 11:17
So is Fighter Jet Weekly porn for May?

Yes

(click to show/hide)

DUDE! A little warning about that porn!

Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 20 Feb 2018, 11:44
You know who I actually feel the worst for in this situation though. Emily. She seems like the type who would feel pretty bad about being the impetus for a fight, even though it isn't like she did anything at all.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: NemesisDancer on 20 Feb 2018, 12:49
You know who I actually feel the worst for in this situation though. Emily. She seems like the type who would feel pretty bad about being the impetus for a fight, even though it isn't like she did anything at all.

Was thinking this myself - I'd be curious to know what her thoughts are on the situation.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Reaver on 20 Feb 2018, 14:22
The thing that shot him in the foot was the air quotes prettier thing....

Dale there's honest, then there's telling your insecure girlfriend that your coworker is prettier than her.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: zisraelsen on 20 Feb 2018, 17:09
I wonder if Marigold will run into Momo and get advice from that front.  Hopefully we get a rehash of  this strip  (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2583) except Marigold will say something like "I apologize for allowing my insecurities to cause me to behave irrationally. I should have discussed them with you instead of storming off." And Dale will just be like "sorry I was such a fuckstick"
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: JRDelirio on 20 Feb 2018, 17:30
This has been a very skillful piece by Jeph -- Marigold's initial fit of jealousy with the totally over-the-top absurd internal scenario would have seemed at first just laugh fodder, "oh Marigold's being so silly"(*)... until Dale fails at situational awareness and walks... no, scratch that, runs full tilt headfirst over the edge of the pit.   Because yes, insecurity WILL make you perceive what others view as absurd and stupid scenarios as a real threat, and the other person responding with nothing but Fail just reinforces it. Maybe he'd have been better off just doing a Marten-style bwuh-huh?whaa? at the first sign of trouble, but that would have required catching the first sign. Now we have drama. 

And yes, Emily is in an unjust position of collateral damage when her intentions were entirely friendly all along.


(*Really... that was no top shelf hentai her imagination came up with.  Then again we remember from back here (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1790), that her slashfic was critiqued by Tai as clumsily written since she'd think it obvious that if she was turned on by the scenario, others would be)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Gyrre on 20 Feb 2018, 17:43
I'm pretty sure that everyone (and I mean everyone) would have taken a 'how to relationship' class if it existed and was actually worth a damn. As one or both of those criteria are never met, I'm thinking that this is simply something that you can't teach. Dale, like the rest of us, is going to have to muddle through this with the occasional blow to the head from a clue-hammer wielded by his friends.

Now, I want to talk about May's recreational reading: It's interesting to see Jeph recall that May really doesn't want to be humanoid at all. She wants to be a fighter jet and she still keeps up with what I presume is a high-performance aviation lifestyle magazine. Obviously, AIs attempting to embezzle to get a fighter drone chassis is a significant problem, given the PSA on the back page: "Don't do crime to be a plane!" It's clearly a lesson that May had to learn the hard way!

Who'd like to see May become a 'plane, maybe something like a Quinjet from the MCU, and still try to keep up with her friends?

Make sure she at least has a GIR-walk mode so she isn't stuck in a hangar or on a tarmac when she isn't flying.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: A Duck on 20 Feb 2018, 18:03
There is a class on "how to do relationships"

Sadly, however, it's called "fuck up a few relationships until you hopefully learn your goddamn lessons"
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 20 Feb 2018, 18:16
AKA The School of Hard Knocks.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: shanejayell on 20 Feb 2018, 19:16
May reading the Jet Fighter mag made me chuckle.

One would think they'd download it tho....  :-D
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Case on 20 Feb 2018, 19:49
May reading the Jet Fighter mag made me chuckle.

One would think they'd download it tho....  :-D

And forego the chance of being "surprised" enjoying Jet Fighter pron?

That's like Pintsize not tweeting about ... the stuff he downloads

(Yes, he actually has a real Twitter-account. Yes, you could check. Yes, you should definitely meditate on the phrase "what has been seen cannot be unseen" before you do.)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 20 Feb 2018, 19:56
"Don't do crime to be a plane..."

I'd have thought May would be the worst person to be giving anybody relationship advice. Jeph has surprised me again.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 20 Feb 2018, 21:04
There's a new fuckin' comic.

May as a flower girl. That I'd like to see.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Neko_Ali on 20 Feb 2018, 21:13
It's not often I say this, but May is right on the money in this one. Not the one I would have thought to be the person with good advice on life and relationship. Also, fuck.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: brasca on 20 Feb 2018, 21:19
Flower girl no, but pall bearer would be suitable. 

I am curious about how an AI that aspires to be a fighter drone and has some of the worst social interaction skills could be so astute about human relationships. 
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: hedgie on 20 Feb 2018, 21:30
Observation most likely.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Case on 20 Feb 2018, 22:13
I am curious about how an AI that aspires to be a fighter drone and has some of the worst social interaction skills could be so astute about human relationships.

I guess that having had a full facial replacement recently does make one wonder about stuff like body-image issues ... especially people who'd much rather forgo the whole f-wording body stuff altogether and be a mother-f-wording fighter jet.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: MrNumbers on 20 Feb 2018, 23:19
May is absolutely crushing it in today's strip. She swears because she cares, and she immediately cuts the blame-allocation and self-recrimination spiral. Doesn't matter whose fault it is, just fix this damn mess. I wonder if Momo is having a similar conversation with Marigold right now?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 20 Feb 2018, 23:21
It's an interesting monologue on the part of May today. I'm sure that some might feel offended by the implied stereotyping about female obsession with appearances. However, I do think May is right to believe that Dale needs to have it explained to him pretty explicitly to get it at all. In some ways, Dale is here being written as the stereotypical male with no emotional depth whatsoever, thinking that everything can be handled with an intellectual and abstract discussion of the facts. Sorry, friend; from experience I can tell you that never works and is, in fact counter-productive.

Meanwhile, I can't help but imagine May (in a VTOL fighter jet chassis) attempting to play the role of flower girl. In a bizarre way, it actually works.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: WoaLG on 20 Feb 2018, 23:34
I'm with Dale here. I wouldn't let May within 1000 feet of any wedding.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: cucumber error on 21 Feb 2018, 01:10
Most weddings would be better without May. At Dale & Marigold's she should be motherf'n Best Robot.

Dora can be the flower girl (finally).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Zebediah on 21 Feb 2018, 01:27
May just summarized twenty thousand words of forum discussion in four panels. I’m in awe.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Nepiophage on 21 Feb 2018, 01:46
Meanwhile, I can't help but imagine May (in a VTOL fighter jet chassis) attempting to play the role of flower girl. In a bizarre way, it actually works.

She could fly low over the wedding just after the vows and drop several sackfuls of rose petals.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Cornelius on 21 Feb 2018, 01:52
Would you really trust her with that?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 21 Feb 2018, 02:24
Let's keep the temperature somewhere below furnace level, shall we?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Akima on 21 Feb 2018, 02:41
May reading the Jet Fighter mag made me chuckle.
I imagine May rolling out to the opening theme from Top Gun (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNxvXj9nff4) looking like a Valkyrie from Macross..
"High-way to the Maynger zone"
And the Valkyrie is a variable-fighter so she could land for the wedding.

May is absolutely crushing it in today's strip. She swears because she cares, and she immediately cuts the blame-allocation and self-recrimination spiral. Doesn't matter whose fault it is, just fix this damn mess.
Just so. I think Jeph crushed it too, with unexpectedly good advice from an unexpected source.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Zebediah on 21 Feb 2018, 03:50
Meanwhile, I can't help but imagine May (in a VTOL fighter jet chassis) attempting to play the role of flower girl. In a bizarre way, it actually works.

She could fly low over the wedding just after the vows and drop several sackfuls of rose petals.

Yeah, that’s the ticket. Fly low over the wedding venue in a fighter jet, blasting the entire wedding party with jet exhaust.

And that’s assuming May doesn’t get carried away and kick in the afterburners.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Thrillho on 21 Feb 2018, 04:06
Tova, at the risk of sounding Banneresque, You do NOT want me to post about such things when I am angry...
And yes, I am... quite!

You may have missed the post I made regarding "Jeemy" and how I feel he was hounded off the board by people asking more and more for his explanation into something which had personally affected him. What you are saying above is similar to that.

I have mentioned more than once (fleetingly) the devastating effects 'jealousy' has played in my life.
To have that experience called a) lies and b) ridiculous is WAY more insulting than you might care to believe.

So, are you saying, therefore, that I need to lay out chapter and verse precisely WHY I believe that Jealousy is not a "just get over it!" topic?
I need to explain it all in full, graphic and heart-breaking detail? Rather than just allude to my experience...?

Or is that what is required to not be called a liar?
Or to not have ones experience of such a thing be labelled as "ridiculous"...?

(I also suggested this topic be moved to another sub-forum.. that didn't happen either...)

Moderators do have lives too. When somebody gets the time to, these posts will be siphoned off into a thread of their own or the relationship thread (I think they could do with their own post). I don't currently have the time to do it and will aim to do so this evening if nobody else has.

Moderator Comment In the meantime, this subsection of the discussion has ceased to be productive and it is isn't directly relevant to the comic any more, so let's go back to just discussing the comic, folks.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Thrillho on 21 Feb 2018, 04:21
Moderator Comment The jealousy discussion is now in its own thread. Apologies for the slightly messy split, there was a lot of overlap.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: swapna on 21 Feb 2018, 04:47
I like May! "You're both idiots" is the best summary of the last few strips. Okay, second-best because "you're both fucking idiots" would've upped the curse quota.
It's big of her, too, since Marigold tried to stop Dale from having her as a roommate (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2715), because of, again, her jealousy. May immediately read the situation correctly  there, too, come to think of it.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: tut21 on 21 Feb 2018, 05:53
Why am I supposed to care about Dale and Margiold again? He's immature and she's worse. Next subplot, please.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Castlerook on 21 Feb 2018, 05:58
Because of character growth.

Yes, they're both acting like idiots, but through this they should learn how to act like adults.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Thrillho on 21 Feb 2018, 06:08
Why am I supposed to care about Dale and Margiold again? He's immature and she's worse. Next subplot, please.

Would you rather they be well-advised? What story points arise from a happy relationship?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: MrNumbers on 21 Feb 2018, 06:30
Why am I supposed to care about Dale and Margiold again? He's immature and she's worse. Next subplot, please.

Would you rather they be well-advised? What story points arise from a happy relationship?

To play Devil's Advocate; Anything involving mutually incompatible objectives or values. Issues where, even though something is perfectly communicated and understood by both parties, is still a cause for disagreement. Or personal vulnerabilities that are only an issue because the love of their partner forces them to come further out of their shell and develop as a person.

Moving in together when one partner needs to resolve losing the feeling of independence, but do so because the feeling of closeness outweighs it. Gift shopping. Hearing a mutual friend badmouth/gossip about the partner behind their back and being unsure of whether to tell the partner, which would make them unhappy for knowing, or keep the secret, so as not to harm the friendship and to not put the stress on that partner's shoulders.

House hunting. Developing a skillset together but one partner learns quicker than the other. Getting a pet. Working up the courage to propose, and figuring out the best way to do that. Working up the courage to admit to having a kink you've never admitted to before because you want to try it but are really embarrassed.

One partner is working on a really stressful long-term project and the other is helping them work through it, and they're only capable of working through it because they have that relationship to support them through it.

Secretly learning poetry to surprise the other partner with, and doing everything possible to hide that embarassing secret until they're good enough that it's no longer embarassing.


EDIT: CAN YOU TELL I WAS WORKING THROUGH WRITERS' BLOCK RIGHT NOW?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: WoaLG on 21 Feb 2018, 06:36
Why am I supposed to care about Dale and Margiold again? He's immature and she's worse. Next subplot, please.

Most of the characters in QC have pretty severe issues in one way or another. I'm not sure what subplot you're hoping for, but I'm not sure the next one will be anymore to your taste.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: ckridge on 21 Feb 2018, 07:00
Why am I supposed to care about Dale and Margiold again? He's immature and she's worse. Next subplot, please.

Because QC is a comedy of manners, and the function of a comedy of manners is not to supply you with imaginary friends, but instead to display, question, and mock contemporary social customs and the problems arising from them.

Well, a comic of manners. And the mockery is gentle. Unless May is doing it.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: shanejayell on 21 Feb 2018, 07:01
May reading the Jet Fighter mag made me chuckle.

One would think they'd download it tho....  :-D

And forego the chance of being "surprised" enjoying Jet Fighter pron?

That's like Pintsize not tweeting about ... the stuff he downloads

(Yes, he actually has a real Twitter-account. Yes, you could check. Yes, you should definitely meditate on the phrase "what has been seen cannot be unseen" before you do.)

Yeah, no.

LOVE May's advice this time. She really IS better with people than she'd admit.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Netherdan on 21 Feb 2018, 07:07
You know Dale is being serious when he turns off the anime filter on his AR glasses.

PS: come to think of it, Marigold's imagination might not be that far from reality, you just need to replace the sexy Emily with a super cute anime Emily
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: ckridge on 21 Feb 2018, 07:24
No, really, how does May know this? Someone upthread says by observation, but observation requires interest, and May is the last person one would expect to be interested in anyone else. She is a snotty little punk, albeit a charming snotty little punk, and that is usually a mark of someone self-centered. Self-centered people are, almost by definition, little interested in others, and therefore usually little observant of others.

Possibilities:

1. May is actually much older than she looks, and has acquired knowledge of humans just by being around a long time. This is unlikely, but I like the image of someone very old inside that little doll body.

2. May is less self-centered than she seems, and Jeph has already laid down hints of this that I have missed or forgotten.

3. Jeph is using May as a mouthpiece to explain what he thinks is so, speaking through her without regard to her character.

4. Jeph will now develop May's character and show how she can be so sharply observant.

5. AI's outsider status requires them to observe humans carefully in order to fit in at all, even when they are personally self-centered.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Oenone on 21 Feb 2018, 07:36
I mean, she’s also in group therapy. She could be bringing in some of the discussions she’s had there.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: gopher on 21 Feb 2018, 08:21
I'm hoping we soon get a mirror of this conversation with Marigold and Momo. Would setup an exam question too. "Compare and contrast..."
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 21 Feb 2018, 09:18
May has been something-related-to-advising on this relationship even before it started. It is possible she feels like she owes Dale something and is trying to pay it back.

How does she know what advice to give? She might have a social protocol database too. She may have spent her time in Robot Jail "reading" and gotten started on books about human relationships.

Those books exist because some things can be taught. Active listening, random acts of kindness, the five to one ratio -- all teachable skills. We teach kids what to do in a fire. Being in a relationship is more likely.

For heaven's sake, I would have been incomparably better off if someone had explained during my dating years that the overwhelming majority of rejections had nothing to do with me and did not constitute a pattern.

Hmm. I'm about to trigger a split into RELATE, aren't I?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 21 Feb 2018, 09:26
You know Dale is being serious when he turns off the anime filter on his AR glasses.

PS: come to think of it, Marigold's imagination might not be that far from reality, you just need to replace the sexy Emily with a super cute anime Emily

This is one of the things that pointed me to wondering if Marigold isn't actually correct in her assumptions.

He didn't have the VR on when he was talking to Emily (Thus, he was giving her his full attention)
And he turned it on when Marigold came in to CoD...

And every now and again, Jeph shocks us with his devilish subtlety...

Not saying this is what was intended... but it's what I read from it.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Cornelius on 21 Feb 2018, 09:30
On the other hand, Emily does tend have some ... interesting effects on technology from time to time. Perhaps it's just safer to turn the glasses off.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Oenone on 21 Feb 2018, 09:35
On the other hand, Emily does tend have some ... interesting effects on technology from time to time. Perhaps it's just safer to turn the glasses off.

Plus, he’s working behind the counter of a place with burning hot things that sometimes explode. I’d probably want to pay close attention to my surroundings then too.

Also tbh I kinda assumed when he has his anime glasses and is looking at Marigold, he’s recording her so he can like, save all the memories of his first love...

Of course now that sounds less cute and more creepy :(
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Oenone on 21 Feb 2018, 09:38
May has been something-related-to-advising on this relationship even before it started. It is possible she feels like she owes Dale something and is trying to pay it back.

How does she know what advice to give? She might have a social protocol database too. She may have spent her time in Robot Jail "reading" and gotten started on books about human relationships.

Those books exist because some things can be taught. Active listening, random acts of kindness, the five to one ratio -- all teachable skills. We teach kids what to do in a fire. Being in a relationship is more likely.

For heaven's sake, I would have been incomparably better off if someone had explained during my dating years that the overwhelming majority of rejections had nothing to do with me and did not constitute a pattern.

Hmm. I'm about to trigger a split into RELATE, aren't I?

Is there a Relate thread on best self help books?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: ckridge on 21 Feb 2018, 10:40
Is there a Relate thread on best self help books?

I think novels are probably the best relationship self-help books. Some show how to do it all wrong (Dangerous Liasons, The Captive), some show how to do it right (Gilead), and some show that it gets really hard even when you do it right (Cheri). Most important, they show how looking closely at particular human characters is interesting, and looking closely at particular human characters is probably the single most useful social skill.

This comic is a kind of self-help book, too. It keeps your mind working on what to do in tricky social situations.

Problem is, as I know to my sorrow, if you are kind of a dick but have good social skills, you are kind of a dick. Fixing that takes some other kind of self-help.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Thrudd on 21 Feb 2018, 12:22
Who'd like to see May become a 'plane, maybe something like a Quinjet from the MCU, and still try to keep up with her friends?
Make sure she at least has a GIR-walk mode so she isn't stuck in a hangar or on a tarmac when she isn't flying.
How about a micro-quad copter?
Her rap sheet would preclude doing deliveries for amazon but then again they have a penchant for delivering things to people who have never ordered anything from them.
I do not.... I Repeat most strongly .... do not recommend a drone swarm.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: JRDelirio on 21 Feb 2018, 16:40

May is actually much older than she looks, and has acquired knowledge of humans just by being around a long time. This is unlikely, but I like the image of someone very old inside that little doll body.

Well, visual clues about age would not necessarily be a reliable indicator of maturity for an AI, especially one embodied in a "welfare" cheap refurb chassis issued off-the-rack, so to speak, when she was released from robotjail.   

Also even among us humans, there is the phenomenon of different "intelligences" and even different levels within each class.  May suffers from shortfalls in the impulse control area but she may be perfectly well aware of interpersonal relationship standards.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 21 Feb 2018, 17:22
That Jeph has chosen May to give relationship advice is supposed to show the depths of Dale's cluelessness, I think. ( at least it wasn't Pintsize... )
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 21 Feb 2018, 18:22
Well. Inability to see your own issues is a recurring theme in QC.

Hasn't Pintsize given good advice some time in the past?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: shanejayell on 21 Feb 2018, 20:28
Updated!
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3684

Yes, I'd pick a Gundam too, honestly....
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: cucumber error on 21 Feb 2018, 20:50
Quote from: Tova link=tc=34011.msg1399874#msg1399874 date=1519266142
Well. Inability to see your own issues is a recurring theme in QC.

Hasn't Pintsize given good advice some time in the past?

And Tai was once surprised at Marten giving good relationship advice. Friendsight is 20/20.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Castlerook on 21 Feb 2018, 21:00
Updated!
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3684

Yes, I'd pick a Gundam too, honestly....

You know, you could just say “comics up”, we already know the basic url for the comic...


And I think everyone would pick the pilotable mech over a partner.

Except me. I’d go for the Kaiju option.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Penquin47 on 21 Feb 2018, 21:19
That Jeph has chosen May to give relationship advice is supposed to show the depths of Dale's cluelessness, I think. ( at least it wasn't Pintsize... )

We haven't seen it in a while, but Pintsize has been known to give some great relationship/dating/life advice.  I'm specifically thinking of when Marten went to the party with Tai as a step to moving on from Dora, but I'm sure there have been other times.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: zisraelsen on 21 Feb 2018, 21:20
The most valuable type of friend, it seems, is the one that can call you on your bullshit as deftly as May and Momo have these last few strips.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: yaksaregreat on 21 Feb 2018, 21:24
Marigold is being hypocritical and self centered, yet again. She's insecure and constantly seeks validation, but does not accept that validation when she receives it? Sure Dale was an idiot but Marigold is being unfair. Can we get Faye and Bubbles back soon?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Neko_Ali on 21 Feb 2018, 21:25
The thing that allows May to give good advice is the same thing that lets all us readers realize why and just how bad Marigold and Dale are screwing up. We're outside the conflict. There's no secret mysterious gift at work here. The issue isn't even that complicated. It's one person being insecure and another being clueless about it.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: stixanstones on 21 Feb 2018, 21:43
Has Marigold always had that severe of an overbite, or is it a new-ish artistic license to create "cuter" MarMar?

Also surprise surprise... she's still in the "woe is me" area of the self-inflicted fight.  Hopefully Momo can lay down some knowledge and have it stick as fast as May did.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: zodo on 21 Feb 2018, 22:16
Most weddings would be better without May.

True, June is far more popular.  8-)

Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Shjade on 21 Feb 2018, 22:17
And I think everyone would pick the pilotable mech over a partner.

I don't even like to drive. I'd pass on the Gundam and keep the partner 100% of the time.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: St.Clair on 21 Feb 2018, 22:23
And I think everyone would pick the pilotable mech over a partner.

I don't even like to drive. I'd pass on the Gundam and keep the partner 100% of the time.

Damn right.  A Gundam is an 18 meter tall, 60 ton white elephant.  (And blue, and red, and gold.)  Like any combat vehicle, it requires an enormous amount of fuel, maintenance, etc etc for every minute of actual operation.  Even when it's inactive, it takes up space.  And it is a gigantic trouble magnet.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Eternal_Newbie on 21 Feb 2018, 23:12
And your choice of boyfriends is limited to creepy losers with mother issues (or am I thinking of the wrong series).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: St.Clair on 21 Feb 2018, 23:15
Well, in some series they're all gay for each other...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 21 Feb 2018, 23:18
I think that May hit the nail on the head a couple of strips back when she pointed out that Dale and Marigold are both very poor at communication. That aside, how very, very human it is for both of them to react first (hurting each other in the process) and think about it later!

One question that genuinely can be raised is the real depth of Dale and Marigold's relationship. I already have pointed out that they feel like a pair of teenagers on their first relationship sometimes. I'm wondering if this arc will have long-term consequences for them both in terms of their confidence in their feelings for each other (including their own investment into the relationship) is shaken.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Mordhaus on 21 Feb 2018, 23:59
And I think everyone would pick the pilotable mech over a partner.

I don't even like to drive. I'd pass on the Gundam and keep the partner 100% of the time.

Damn right.  A Gundam is an 18 meter tall, 60 ton white elephant.  (And blue, and red, and gold.)  Like any combat vehicle, it requires an enormous amount of fuel, maintenance, etc etc for every minute of actual operation.  Even when it's inactive, it takes up space.  And it is a gigantic trouble magnet.

My significant other also requires enormous amounts of fuel, high maintenance levels, and takes up space when inactive. They are also a gigantic trouble magnet.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 22 Feb 2018, 00:09
I just want to go on the record here that the VF-1 series of Valkyrie aerospace fighters (particularly the -S variant with the dorsal boosters) are my favourite ludicrously-impractical Japanese military mecha. It's probably because it's the first because someone bought an 11-year-old me a Valkyrie toy waaay back in the 1980s because they didn't know the difference between Robotech and Transformers.

I just also want to add that I'd love to see May in a VF-1 chassis and for her to have a crush on her pilot with all the confusion for both participants that this would automatically trigger; dates via the neural piloting interface? However, now I'm heading deep into fanfic/shipping territory, which is off-topic for this thread. :-P
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: swapna on 22 Feb 2018, 01:21
I am saddened by the lack of cursing, but Momos friendship with Marigold helps her make real progress, I think.

And I think May's interested in others, not just forced to observe. She's just very prickly on the outside,  kinda like Faye  (who also has a very keen eye for her friends, but not for her own problems)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Case on 22 Feb 2018, 02:09
Well. Inability to see your own issues is a recurring theme in QC humanity.

FYP

Also: MoMayntervention!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 22 Feb 2018, 02:42
Has Marigold always had that severe of an overbite, or is it a new-ish artistic license to create "cuter" MarMar?

I gotta say, until I saw the sub-text my first thoughts on todays comic was...
"Has this one been rushed? It looks really sloppily drawn..."
But then I realised that Momo was drawn as well as ever...
Then I thought - is this more playing around with character models (as seems to have been happening in recent weeks)

Then I read the sub-text.

Can't say I agree with it...
:(
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: traroth on 22 Feb 2018, 02:52
@JoeCovenant: True. It's especially so for the second image. Something seems really wrong with Marigold's teeth...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: ckridge on 22 Feb 2018, 03:28
Marigold is Momo's pilotable meat suit, this big passionate, emotional, stormy creature with Momo in her head guiding her.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: ckridge on 22 Feb 2018, 03:31
I keep trying to figure out how exactly one would have sex with a pilotable Gundam boyfriend. I get as far as the mecha fumbling around inside its head, and then basic conceptual physics begins to get in the way. I always thought that literally unthinkable acts would be more lurid somehow.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 22 Feb 2018, 03:36
I keep trying to figure out how exactly one would have sex with a pilotable Gundam boyfriend.

The same way Station was basically proposing Hannelore would have sex with a large Coriolis space station: Via a neural interface that would enable them to interact in a virtual environment.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Sullivan on 22 Feb 2018, 04:17
Next QC startup: Momo and May set up a relationship counseling service.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: ckridge on 22 Feb 2018, 04:30
The same way Station was basically proposing Hannelore would have sex with a large Coriolis space station: Via a neural interface that would enable them to interact in a virtual environment.

I confess that I have not studied the matter properly, but aren't Gundam mindless fighting suits? If so, there would be no one in that virtual world but you.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Marco on 22 Feb 2018, 04:35
But then I realised that Momo was drawn as well as ever...

Neck seam aside, Momo looks very human in this one, even her body language. Not sure if a new reader would even notice that she's a robot. I guess Jeph is taking a point about being human in the last strips.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: ckridge on 22 Feb 2018, 04:36
Dammit, now I want a t-shirt that says "My other girlfriend is an ASW-G-08 Gundam Barbatos Lupus." Not to wear. Heaven forfend. Just to have.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: JRDelirio on 22 Feb 2018, 06:02
Marigold of course is herself making the mistake of hypothesizing choices in a contextual vacuum, and Momo calls her on it immediately.  Also we see her describe what Dale missed, that the questions about what did he see in Emily were in her mind an attempt to explain what she was insecure about (but of course, what came out was not Marigold explaining herself, it was Marigold challenging Dale to "get it" and he failed completely).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 22 Feb 2018, 06:17
The same way Station was basically proposing Hannelore would have sex with a large Coriolis space station: Via a neural interface that would enable them to interact in a virtual environment.

I confess that I have not studied the matter properly, but aren't Gundam mindless fighting suits? If so, there would be no one in that virtual world but you.

"At least it's sex with someone I love..."
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: ckridge on 22 Feb 2018, 06:51
It occurs to me that there is undoubtedly a vast body of fan fiction on this very subject, and that if I don't shut up an aficionado will show up and explain in endless detail how it would work.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: shanejayell on 22 Feb 2018, 06:57
Updated!
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3684

Yes, I'd pick a Gundam too, honestly....

You know, you could just say “comics up”, we already know the basic url for the comic...


And I think everyone would pick the pilotable mech over a partner.

Except me. I’d go for the Kaiju option.

GODZILLA!

I like direct linking. It's a thing. *shrug*
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 22 Feb 2018, 07:49
The same way Station was basically proposing Hannelore would have sex with a large Coriolis space station: Via a neural interface that would enable them to interact in a virtual environment.

I confess that I have not studied the matter properly, but aren't Gundam mindless fighting suits? If so, there would be no one in that virtual world but you.

Several Gundams have shown some amount of autonomy actually. The examples that come to mind are all from Gundam Wing though, like Sandrock basically telling Quatre "get the fuck out, I got this" before it walked out into a battlefield and exploded. The Zero system also did some stuff that might be examples of the beginning of AI.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Magniras on 22 Feb 2018, 07:54
Disregard boys, acquire Gundam.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: ckridge on 22 Feb 2018, 08:23
Several Gundams have shown some amount of autonomy actually. The examples that come to mind are all from Gundam Wing though, like Sandrock basically telling Quatre "get the fuck out, I got this" before it walked out into a battlefield and exploded. The Zero system also did some stuff that might be examples of the beginning of AI.

Well all right. A sound choice, then. Probably not a lot more socially able than the average guy, but definitely cuter.

God damn it, I am getting faintly teary at the thought of a fighting suit in a series I have never seen and have no interest in seeing sacrificing itself. Definitely time to go outdoors and contemplate the humans.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: traroth on 22 Feb 2018, 08:24
I keep trying to figure out how exactly one would have sex with a pilotable Gundam boyfriend. I get as far as the mecha fumbling around inside its head, and then basic conceptual physics begins to get in the way. I always thought that literally unthinkable acts would be more lurid somehow.

Why? WHY are you inflicting such thoughts to yourself???
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: traroth on 22 Feb 2018, 08:25
Next QC startup: Momo and May set up a relationship counseling service.

They would be playing it like a good cop-bad cop thing...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: gopher on 22 Feb 2018, 08:27
Not sure Squirrel Marigold is a good look.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Sullivan on 22 Feb 2018, 08:49
Updated!
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3684

Yes, I'd pick a Gundam too, honestly....

You know, you could just say “comics up”, we already know the basic url for the comic...


And I think everyone would pick the pilotable mech over a partner.

Except me. I’d go for the Kaiju option.

GODZILLA!

I like direct linking. It's a thing. *shrug*

I haven't seen Chuck Tingle post here before, but you never know.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Case on 22 Feb 2018, 09:24
The same way Station was basically proposing Hannelore would have sex with a large Coriolis space station: Via a neural interface that would enable them to interact in a virtual environment.

I confess that I have not studied the matter properly, but aren't Gundam mindless fighting suits? If so, there would be no one in that virtual world but you.

"At least it's sex with someone I love..."

Das geht direkt zur Sache ohne Kinoschlange stehn,
ohne jeden blöden Small-Talk, ohne teuer essen gehn.
Wenn dabei gestöhnt wird, ist es ohne Zweifel echt.
Und man macht sichs selber meistens gar nicht mal so schlecht.


Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: SpanielBear on 22 Feb 2018, 09:28
Next QC startup: Momo and May set up a relationship counseling service.

They would be playing it like a good cop-bad cop thing...

*Scene- Interior, early evening. A counsellors office, containing one smart couch and two person-sofa. A small coffee table with a pot plant is between the two seats. On the larger sofa, a human couple in their early forties, EARL and JASMINE. Neither are making eye-contact, and by their expressions we can see they are both angry. Opposite them sits MOMO, a petite AI with pink hair. She is holding a note book.*

MOMO: "So neither of you are willing to back down on this?"

*EARL and JASMINE shake their heads, still unwilling to look at each other. MOMO sighs.*

MOMO: "That's a shame. Well, I'm sorry to have to do this. Ultimatums are not my preferred way of doing business, but I see no other way forward. Either we resolve your differences or-"

*From the distance a low roar, increasing in volume. The camera pans around to face MOMO, her head now framed by a window looking out over the setting sun. As she talks, the noise of the engine increases and we see a distant speck grow larger as MAY approaches at cruising speed.*

MOMO: "- I will be forced to reffer your case to my partner."
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 22 Feb 2018, 09:31
Dammit, now I want a t-shirt that says "My other girlfriend is an ASW-G-08 Gundam Barbatos Lupus." Not to wear. Heaven forfend. Just to have.

Your wish... etc etc etc

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28167722_10156817289534587_3305662722648326944_n.jpg?oh=436395d2f4b4a3a463c341b7cf60e42a&oe=5B0265CA)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Wombt on 22 Feb 2018, 09:32
Updated!
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3684

Yes, I'd pick a Gundam too, honestly....

You know, you could just say “comics up”, we already know the basic url for the comic...
I appreciate the linking as it can be helpful to know what page people are discussing if one's not reading the comments right away.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: brasca on 22 Feb 2018, 10:31
A Gundam is a more reliable choice, but I’m still partial to Zakus.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 22 Feb 2018, 10:41
Several Gundams have shown some amount of autonomy actually. The examples that come to mind are all from Gundam Wing though, like Sandrock basically telling Quatre "get the fuck out, I got this" before it walked out into a battlefield and exploded. The Zero system also did some stuff that might be examples of the beginning of AI.

Well all right. A sound choice, then. Probably not a lot more socially able than the average guy, but definitely cuter.

God damn it, I am getting faintly teary at the thought of a fighting suit in a series I have never seen and have no interest in seeing sacrificing itself. Definitely time to go outdoors and contemplate the humans.

It's actually a pretty good scene. Two of the other characters had loaded their Gundams into shuttles to launch into space, and Quatre was protecting them for launch. He didn't see how they would be able to launch without getting shot down, so he was going to use the Sandrock's self destruct to destroy the enemies, sacrificing himself and Sandrock to let Duo and Wufei escape to space. When he pressed the button, no explosion. Instead Sandrock holds up its shield in front of the cockpit and opens the cockpit. At which point, Quatre says he understands, jumps out, and Sandrock marches towards the enemies before self destructing and destroying them, allowing Quatre to escape to space in another shuttle sans mecha.

It was really effective as it showed both Quatre's willingness to sacrifice himself for his friends (which he was a super cinnamon roll character), and then how that had somehow transferred to Sandrock through it learning from him.

... I watched that series a lot back in the late 90s.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: snufflebottoms on 22 Feb 2018, 11:46
Someone mentioned Marigold and Dale seeming like they are teens in their first relationship.

They may not be teens but it is their first relationship.

I think it'd be interesting if it turns out Dale actually does like Emily more.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Neko_Ali on 22 Feb 2018, 12:08
The same way Station was basically proposing Hannelore would have sex with a large Coriolis space station: Via a neural interface that would enable them to interact in a virtual environment.

I confess that I have not studied the matter properly, but aren't Gundam mindless fighting suits? If so, there would be no one in that virtual world but you.

Several Gundams have shown some amount of autonomy actually. The examples that come to mind are all from Gundam Wing though, like Sandrock basically telling Quatre "get the fuck out, I got this" before it walked out into a battlefield and exploded. The Zero system also did some stuff that might be examples of the beginning of AI.

The various Gundam series have changed a lot in tone and technology. In the beginning of the franchise the mecha were just vehicles. Gundam was actually made in counter to the prevelant 'Boy and Robot' Giant Robot shows that were popular at that time, like Mazinger Z. Instead of a young child and his non-piloted autonomous robot companion Gundam pushed for piloted humanoid vehicles as a weapon of war. They didn't operate on their own and made some nods towards plausible science. As much as a show about walking tanks could anyway. They did have nods to super science shenanigans in from the beginning, mostly in the development of the psychic Newtype pilots and machines specifically for them to fly.

More and more spin offs and sequels came out though and a number of them stray pretty far from the military machine story and concepts. Gundam Wing for insteads borrowed a lot of concepts from Sentai style shows. All the  pilots were Newtypes who had their own specialized machines that they could supercharge with nothing but the power of their mind alone. The original Newtype psychic powers were more like very short precognition... The pilot would just 'know' where attacks were coming from, or how any enemy was going to move so they could better intercept them. Rarely more than that. The Wing Gundams physically could transform by their pilots using their super powers. So just saying 'Gundam' really covers a pretty broad spectrum of possibilities.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 22 Feb 2018, 12:41
The same way Station was basically proposing Hannelore would have sex with a large Coriolis space station: Via a neural interface that would enable them to interact in a virtual environment.

I confess that I have not studied the matter properly, but aren't Gundam mindless fighting suits? If so, there would be no one in that virtual world but you.

Several Gundams have shown some amount of autonomy actually. The examples that come to mind are all from Gundam Wing though, like Sandrock basically telling Quatre "get the fuck out, I got this" before it walked out into a battlefield and exploded. The Zero system also did some stuff that might be examples of the beginning of AI.

The various Gundam series have changed a lot in tone and technology. In the beginning of the franchise the mecha were just vehicles. Gundam was actually made in counter to the prevelant 'Boy and Robot' Giant Robot shows that were popular at that time, like Mazinger Z. Instead of a young child and his non-piloted autonomous robot companion Gundam pushed for piloted humanoid vehicles as a weapon of war. They didn't operate on their own and made some nods towards plausible science. As much as a show about walking tanks could anyway. They did have nods to super science shenanigans in from the beginning, mostly in the development of the psychic Newtype pilots and machines specifically for them to fly.

More and more spin offs and sequels came out though and a number of them stray pretty far from the military machine story and concepts. Gundam Wing for insteads borrowed a lot of concepts from Sentai style shows. All the  pilots were Newtypes who had their own specialized machines that they could supercharge with nothing but the power of their mind alone. The original Newtype psychic powers were more like very short precognition... The pilot would just 'know' where attacks were coming from, or how any enemy was going to move so they could better intercept them. Rarely more than that. The Wing Gundams physically could transform by their pilots using their super powers. So just saying 'Gundam' really covers a pretty broad spectrum of possibilities.

Wing didn't really have NewTypes, in fact, none of the characters in Wing were depicted as superhuman (at least, any more so than anime heroes are depicted as human. Like Heero was abnormally strong and tough, but he wasn't magic)? The Gundams in it were mostly just depicted as super advanced and made of an armor alloy that was insanely durable (with the exception of the Zero system and the Epyon system which were basically just super computers designed to read tactical data and feed it directly into the pilots brain). Are you sure you are thinking of the right series?

(Now, G Gundam is more in the "Holy shit this is batty, everything is superhuman")

Also, the abilty of a Gundam to Learn and possibly act on its own was introduced super early, in the final battle of the first series, and the reason given being the Learning computer (which has been a part of the UC lore about Gundams from the very beginning).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: cucumber error on 22 Feb 2018, 14:29
The same way Station was basically proposing Hannelore would have sex with a large Coriolis space station: Via a neural interface that would enable them to interact in a virtual environment.

I confess that I have not studied the matter properly, but aren't Gundam mindless fighting suits? If so, there would be no one in that virtual world but you.

"At least it's sex with someone I love..."

Das geht direkt zur Sache ohne Kinoschlange stehn,
ohne jeden blöden Small-Talk, ohne teuer essen gehn.
Wenn dabei gestöhnt wird, ist es ohne Zweifel echt.
Und man macht sichs selber meistens gar nicht mal so schlecht.

Google Translate helped me get the gist, but...well it's Google Translate. That last line is coming through as "And you don't even make yourself so bad."  :?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: JimC on 22 Feb 2018, 14:36
No, really, how does May know this?

Perhaps AIs simply get training on human relationships and characteristics. Be pretty damn essential for those taking on the companion role, and it would also be highly desirable for treating the sociopathic in robot jail. World might be a better place if humans got training too.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: NemesisDancer on 22 Feb 2018, 17:23
Not sure Squirrel Marigold is a good look.

I'm not keen on her more cartoony design at the moment either. Reminds me a bit too much of Anime Glasses Marigold from this strip (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2175).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Shjade on 22 Feb 2018, 17:42
No, really, how does May know this?

Perhaps AIs simply get training on human relationships and characteristics. Be pretty damn essential for those taking on the companion role, and it would also be highly desirable for treating the sociopathic in robot jail. World might be a better place if humans got training too.

She's an AI with access to the internet and has a lot of time on her hands at work.

If she didn't know more than she wanted to about the causes of human drama BEFORE she started working that job, she definitely would by now.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Akima on 22 Feb 2018, 17:54
And I think everyone would pick the pilotable mech over a partner.
I'm a bit meh on mechs, honestly, but I could be tempted by a spaceship. After all, I took my forum handle from Akima Kunimoto, a skilled and daring animated pilot...
(https://i.imgur.com/aLCKvnC.jpg)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Neko_Ali on 22 Feb 2018, 18:49
It's entirely possible that I'm not remembering details about Gundam Wing correctly. I only ever saw the series when it came out on US TV, what 15 odd years ago? Details aside though my point being that a whole lot of concepts fall under the umbrella of 'Gundam' from hard science to science fantasy in different series over the years that it could cover most any mecha concepts. The idea of an AI operated Gundam falling in love with it's pilot wouldn't be too far fetched for it.

For a story with those sorts of themes though I might recommend Five Star Stories instead. Hugely streamlining the concept here, but the mecha from that series (called MortarHeadds) were operated by a pilot and a fatima, which was a genetically engineered being specifically designed for that role. Mostly they looked like human females and imprinted on their chosen masters. They were very close as pilot and co pilot and a certain level of affection or even love was not unknown. Though others thought such a thing was disgusting and treated their fatimas as objects. There is a certain similarity of theme between fatimas and androids.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 22 Feb 2018, 19:07
Dang, ninja'd. The fatima acts as the interface between the pilot and his mecha.
He decides what to do, she takes care of the details.

Humans getting advice from AIs on how to be human. LOL.
( though I suppose they'd need to study this stuff before being sent into the human world )
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Castlerook on 22 Feb 2018, 19:15
Dang, ninja'd.

Humans getting advice from AIs on how to be human. LOL.

Why is that so funny?

Wouldn't an outside perspective offer insight that we might have missed?

Is it not possible that we don't know everything, that we don't have all the answers and that because we don't know anything else, we more often than not miss what affects us and in turn miss what we can do to change that? After all, we're only human.

So maybe, just maybe, there is something we can learn about being human from someone who isn't.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: SomeCanadianWeirdo on 22 Feb 2018, 19:49
Personally I liked Crab Girlfriend better before they changed Sayoko's voice actress.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Castlerook on 22 Feb 2018, 19:57
Yeah, but the ending of the series was just a massive tearjerker...

Who knew crab girlfriends couldn't survive a blast from a hydrothermal vent? Poor Lobster Boyfriend, forever waiting for his love, unaware that she is gone...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: SmilingCat on 22 Feb 2018, 19:59
Right now, I kinda wanna think that May and Momo are secretly chatting with each other while talking to their respective humans. Trading notes, and complaining about how clueless they are.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 22 Feb 2018, 20:03
Comic Up

Honestly, not sure I agree on this entirely. Like, yes, go in apologizing, but you really need to follow up with talking about the whole situation. Without addressing it, it is going to keep happening. Just go back and look at Marigold talking to Momo, did it look like she understood that her jealousy was kind of an issue?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 22 Feb 2018, 20:27
Yes, that's true, but the point, I think, is that Dale needs to walk in prepared up front openly how we went wrong and how he really feels. Once this has been started, this is an invitation for Marigold to open up in turn and discuss her own feelings and her jealousy, and how they can address that (which would, I assume, come down to addressing her insecurity).

Dale walking in and immediately discussing Marigold's shortcomings will make her defensive, multiply her insecurities, and in the words of May, make things 1000 times worse.

If there's one thing I've learned in my relationship, is that after a fight (and after some time to cool off and to regain the ability to think clearly), the best thing you can do is to openly confess shortcomings, however minor they may seem (in reality, probably not). This is infinitely more likely to result in your partner reciprocating, whereas shooting accusations and demanding changes in behaviour will just result in barriers going up.

This is a slight side note, but I think that one of the major mistakes Marten made back then was to respond to Dora's jealousy with anger rather than with understanding. This meant Dora would have been hesitant to discuss her jealousy when it arose again, and it would only emerge as another explosive fight. If there had been support and reassurance... well, I'm not saying things would have been different necessarily, but the odds would have been better.

This isn't about laying blame, by the way, before anyone says that. It's just an observation.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: shanejayell on 22 Feb 2018, 20:33
FIRST RULE OF RELATIONSHIPS:

The guy apologizes FIRST.

Also? MELONS! :D
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 22 Feb 2018, 20:34
Like I said, come in apologizing, but you can't just not have the conversation.

Actually, the way Momo and May are addressing it odd entirely to me. Like Momo referred to it as just an issue of miscommunication. Marigold imagining Emily and Dale fucking just because they were laughing when she came in is not a "miscommunication" issue. That is a deeper issue, and it feels bizarre to me that it is being glossed over, even by the person giving her advice.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: brasca on 22 Feb 2018, 20:35
Normally I wouldn't trust May with sharp objects, but if Dale's attempt to makeup fail it's best that she keep him from committing seppuku.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 22 Feb 2018, 20:41
If there's one thing I've learned in my relationship, is that after a fight (and after some time to cool off and to regain the ability to think clearly), the best thing you can do is to openly confess shortcomings, however minor they may seem (in reality, probably not). This is infinitely more likely to result in your partner reciprocating, whereas shooting accusations and demanding changes in behaviour will just result in barriers going up.

Want to focus in a bit more on this: Yes, I agree with this, to a point.

It works well, if the other person has self-awareness. Marigold has never shown an inkling of self-awareness. Based on her personality as written so far, I'd be honestly surprised if her reaction wasn't "Dale apologized, therefore everything is good now." And then didn't acknowledge any of her own shortcomings. Even when Momo tried to point out her shortcoming in communicating properly, she deflected it rather than face it. And then, to add in, that no one seems to be addressing that the level of jealousy and how upset she got was not a healthy reaction at all to begin with.

I agree that the first thing you should do after a fight is apologize for how you screwed up.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Mad Cat on 22 Feb 2018, 21:08
Who the Hell would allow May to even OWN a tanto, let alone play with it openly?

Isn't she still on probation? Wouldn't that be a violation thereof? Of course, she was eye-fucking the pages of "Jet Fighter Weekly" earlier.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Penquin47 on 22 Feb 2018, 21:09
Who the Hell would allow May to even OWN a tanto, let alone play with it openly?

Isn't she still on probation? Wouldn't that be a violation thereof? Of course, she was eye-fucking the pages of "Jet Fighter Weekly" earlier.

It's probably Dale's.  We know he has a sword because that's how May ripped her face off.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Neko_Ali on 22 Feb 2018, 22:05
FIRST RULE OF RELATIONSHIPS:

The guy apologizes FIRST.

Which is a sexist way of thinking of the subject, which means of course it's far to common and part of the problem.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Case on 22 Feb 2018, 22:07
I like how completely unfazed Dale is at May's semi-unsheathing that tanto.


(Please, Jeph, don't let him build that melon-comparison into his apology to Marigold ...)


Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: jwhouk on 22 Feb 2018, 22:25
May has a thing for boobs, it appears.

Sent from my NXA8QC116 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Akima on 22 Feb 2018, 22:37
I like how completely unfazed Dale is at May's semi-unsheathing that tanto.
Who else could be his kaishakunin? :wink:  More good advice from May, whichever teaching-aids she employs.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Near Lurker on 22 Feb 2018, 22:55
It's settled then: Dale's line is "how could I prefer Emily to you when you've got such massive tits?"
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 22 Feb 2018, 23:23
I think that Jeph realised that May was being so intelligent and insightful that she would want to say something inappropriate at the end, just to remind Dale who she is. It probably says something about Dale that he actually agrees with her fundamental point.

So, am I the only one that is unaccountably concerned about May unsheathing that knife a little when she got annoyed with Dale? I don't think that she's the sort who will be violent but it does make me wonder if her face was damaged by a sword falling on her or whether she was swinging it around in anger at the way her arm was mucking her around. I'm saying that maybe she has a temper and maybe sometimes it gets the better of her!

I know that there is an animé called 'Magical Love Gentleman' or something like it but is there anything IRL like 'Crab Girlfriend'?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Near Lurker on 22 Feb 2018, 23:42
There's a dating sim called "Hatoful Boyfriend," a pun on the English (...ish...) "heartful," about a human girl stranded in a word of pigeons (hato).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 23 Feb 2018, 00:35
Actually, the way Momo and May are addressing it odd entirely to me. Like Momo referred to it as just an issue of miscommunication. Marigold imagining Emily and Dale fucking just because they were laughing when she came in is not a "miscommunication" issue. That is a deeper issue, and it feels bizarre to me that it is being glossed over, even by the person giving her advice.

Well yes, it's an insecurity issue, and that's a conversation to be had with Dale, not with Momo.

We also don't know how much they discussed that before we see panel one.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: brightwings00 on 23 Feb 2018, 01:52
It works well, if the other person has self-awareness. Marigold has never shown an inkling of self-awareness. Based on her personality as written so far, I'd be honestly surprised if her reaction wasn't "Dale apologized, therefore everything is good now." And then didn't acknowledge any of her own shortcomings. Even when Momo tried to point out her shortcoming in communicating properly, she deflected it rather than face it. And then, to add in, that no one seems to be addressing that the level of jealousy and how upset she got was not a healthy reaction at all to begin with.

If I remember rightly, she did realize she was being a jerk to Momo way back when... eventually. Marigold's got all the social skills of a doorknob, but I do think her heart's in the right place.

And the thing is: people sometimes have feelings like jealousy and resentment and anger, and they may not be healthy or fair or even logical. But feelings don't work according to dictum. I would submit that it's okay to feel things--even the bad feelings that aren't nice or kind--that in fact it's healthier to acknowledge feelings and sit with them, without judging yourself, rather than go "Nope nope nope, I'm not jealous, it's cool! I'm fine! I'm totally the cool girl!" and try and suppress those feelings into oblivion.

Note there is a distinct--and important--difference between feeling things and how you act on those feelings and deal with them. I have sympathy for Marigold's insecurity and jealousy; I would have much, much less sympathy for her, say, forbidding him from talking to Emily or snooping on his texts/emails. And there definitely needs to be a talk--hopefully with Momo or Winslow, or hilariously with May--about healthy coping mechanisms. But judging someone for feeling insecure, I think, not only doesn't acknowledge a very human flaw but compounds the problem.

(Also, to quote Jon Snow, King in the North, First Of His Name, etc.: "Everything before the word 'but' is horse s***." If Dale goes in with the attitude/phrasing of "I'm sorry I said that to you, but your attitude was really uncalled for", the part about "I'm sorry I said that to you" is going to vanish in the wind.)

Side note: has May ever met Bubbles? Have they/could they talk about fighter jets?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: brightwings00 on 23 Feb 2018, 01:55
So, am I the only one that is unaccountably concerned about May unsheathing that knife a little when she got annoyed with Dale? I don't think that she's the sort who will be violent but it does make me wonder if her face was damaged by a sword falling on her or whether she was swinging it around in anger at the way her arm was mucking her around. I'm saying that maybe she has a temper and maybe sometimes it gets the better of her!

*whispers* ...faaaace meeeeats...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 23 Feb 2018, 02:06
It works well, if the other person has self-awareness. Marigold has never shown an inkling of self-awareness. Based on her personality as written so far, I'd be honestly surprised if her reaction wasn't "Dale apologized, therefore everything is good now." And then didn't acknowledge any of her own shortcomings. Even when Momo tried to point out her shortcoming in communicating properly, she deflected it rather than face it. And then, to add in, that no one seems to be addressing that the level of jealousy and how upset she got was not a healthy reaction at all to begin with.

Well, even if it isn't addressed in the immediate aftermath (which I doubt actually, but it's possible), that's not the end of it. There will be further opportunities for Dale to start a conversation about it in less threatening circumstances.

You're quite focused on the fact that her level of jealousy is not healthy. I mean, do you really need it spelled out in the comic? It's pretty clear that it's not healthy. I don't think simply telling her that is going to solve the problem. A little patience will be required here. As you said yourself, this is a deep issue.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: JimC on 23 Feb 2018, 02:36
Wouldn't an outside perspective offer insight that we might have missed?
Also think about the quality of the advice frequently offered by humans to humans... I abso-bloody-lutely guarantee that in 100years time social mores and conventions will have changed so much that the average agony aunt advice from today will look just as frigging ridiculous and even dangerous as the advice their predecessors were handing out 100 years ago looks today.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 23 Feb 2018, 02:57
Wouldn't an outside perspective offer insight that we might have missed?
Also think about the quality of the advice frequently offered by humans to humans... I abso-bloody-lutely guarantee that in 100years time social mores and conventions will have changed so much that the average agony aunt advice from today will look just as frigging ridiculous and even dangerous as the advice their predecessors were handing out 100 years ago looks today.

Nothing to do with the current topic...
But I LOVE Jim's assertion that he can guarantee we (humans) will all still be around in 100 years time!  :)
 :parrot:
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: BlueFatima on 23 Feb 2018, 03:35
Like I said, come in apologizing, but you can't just not have the conversation.

Actually, the way Momo and May are addressing it odd entirely to me. Like Momo referred to it as just an issue of miscommunication. Marigold imagining Emily and Dale fucking just because they were laughing when she came in is not a "miscommunication" issue. That is a deeper issue, and it feels bizarre to me that it is being glossed over, even by the person giving her advice.

I agree. I also think their advice is off the mark. Both of them (mostly Momo, but May is doing it today) have been making it out that Dale is *settling* for Marigold, and that Emily is out of his league. That is *horrible* advice to anyone who has an jealous/insecure partner and/or a jealous/insecure moment. The Gundam suit analogy is not only insensitive, but a lousy analogy. Gundam suits are either imaginary or (in QC's world) very expensive, and are thus unattainable for Marigold to chose from so she can't choose one over Dale (though she implied she would if given the choice). That is possibly not true with Emily and definitely not with other potential girls. Dale *does* really have a choice—if not with Emily then some other "hot" looking girl who could be interested in him. It's not like there aren't, and it's not even impossible that Emily could be interested in him. And "tasty as hell" versus simply "good" is not a great comparison. If you are going that route, you'd need to say apples are your *favorite*—though this advice seems more in character for May (though she's offered decent advice before this point—even in other arcs) than it did when Momo was offering it. Dale needs to make it clear he chose May and what he loves about her. It doesn't hurt to point out why Emily isn't his type as well versus making it all about "I ended up with you."
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 23 Feb 2018, 04:12
Like I said, come in apologizing, but you can't just not have the conversation.

Actually, the way Momo and May are addressing it odd entirely to me. Like Momo referred to it as just an issue of miscommunication. Marigold imagining Emily and Dale fucking just because they were laughing when she came in is not a "miscommunication" issue. That is a deeper issue, and it feels bizarre to me that it is being glossed over, even by the person giving her advice.

I agree. I also think their advice is off the mark. Both of them (mostly Momo, but May is doing it today) have been making it out that Dale is *settling* for Marigold, and that Emily is out of his league.

I don't think that's what they are saying or even implying at all.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Pennepasta on 23 Feb 2018, 04:32

I don't think that's what they are saying or even implying at all.

Really? I get that vibe from Momo, with the "Well, you'd rather have a pilotable Gundam than him!" in response to claims of him preferring Emily, giving a strong inference that Emily is unattainable for Dale in a similar way that a pilotable Gundam would be for Marigold. Also, "He cares for you very much!" is a... weak counterargument to "He'd rather be with someone else than me", again implying that there's no solid argument against Dale preferring Emily, but she's just out of his league.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: SpanielBear on 23 Feb 2018, 04:46
Like I said, come in apologizing, but you can't just not have the conversation.

Actually, the way Momo and May are addressing it odd entirely to me. Like Momo referred to it as just an issue of miscommunication. Marigold imagining Emily and Dale fucking just because they were laughing when she came in is not a "miscommunication" issue. That is a deeper issue, and it feels bizarre to me that it is being glossed over, even by the person giving her advice.

I agree. I also think their advice is off the mark. Both of them (mostly Momo, but May is doing it today) have been making it out that Dale is *settling* for Marigold, and that Emily is out of his league.

I don't think that's what they are saying or even implying at all.

tbf, it is a little bit. But that's okay. I've heard it explained like this: People have a (conscious and subconscious) list of things they look for in a partner- let's say 10 things. Often that list includes things that are inherently contradictory- safe and exciting, for example, or funny and serious. So finding someone who is 10 out of 10 is essentially possible, But when we find ourselves with someone who scores 7 say, we find we are perfectly happy and content so we cheerfully compromise. But we do still miss those missing 3 things, so when we see someone else who has them, we may think we've found our perfect 10 because they fill in the gaps, without stopping to see if they actually are all that.
(spoilers: they probably wont be.)
The key seems to be to remind yourself of all the things that you do love abut your partner, and focus on those. That certainly seems to be the gist of May's advice.

For the record, I am talking about relationships where things are normally fine and happy. If a relationship is actively making you miserable, you are absolutely not obligated to stay.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: ckridge on 23 Feb 2018, 04:56
This whole story arc is shaping up as pedantic and moralistic, with the humans falling into sin and error and their wise robot companions setting them back on the path of righteousness. I have no problem with teaching or with morals, but it is all being told with a very heavy hand. A 20th-century humorist wrote about Hopalong Freud characters who ride into town and explain everyone to themselves and to each other. The robots are acting as Hopalong Freud here.

More could have been done with Emily as a person, rather than as an occasion of sin. More could have been done with Dale and Marigold examining their feelings toward each other, rather with each treating themselves and each other as off-the-shelf, mass-market, boy/girl-friends with standardized properties. More could have been done with the robots' own feelings of possessiveness, defensiveness, jealousy, and chronic irritation toward their human companions. As matters stand, I fear that we will be left with no more than several mostly-true-much-of-the-time lectures about how to manage jealousy.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: WoaLG on 23 Feb 2018, 05:16
This whole story arc is shaping up as pedantic and moralistic, with the humans falling into sin and error and their wise robot companions setting them back on the path of righteousness.

I'm about 104% sure that that's not at all what Jeph is going for. I don't think it has anything to do with robots vs humans. But May is Dale's best (non-Marigold) friend and Momo is Marigold's best (non-Dale) friend. Plus, since they're roommates, they're probably the first friends that Dale and Marigold see. (Since I can't imagine either of them going out socializing when they're hurting. They're both the kind of people to go home and nurse their wounds.)

And there have been arcs dealing with the companion AIs' feelings about their "owner" spending less time with them and more with other friends. I can't recall the page numbers, but I vaguely remember Pintsize just shrugging and Momo expressing happiness that Marigold was making new friends, which she'd been encouraging.

As for Emily, there have been several arcs where Emily is expanded on as a person, but this particular arc is being told from Marigold and Dale's Point of View and everybody's the main character in their own story. The story being told here is about jealousy and trust, not about a cheating boyfriend, so I don't see what more Emily needs to have done in this instance.

I'm not sure how to interpret the rest of your post about mass-market boy/girl-friends with standardized properties, but I'm pretty sure your fears are groundless.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: pwhodges on 23 Feb 2018, 05:17
More could have been done with Dale and Marigold examining their feelings toward each other,

That's coming - remember how slowly Jeph's story arcs build (and if that doesn't suit you, or tries your patience too far, then maybe this is the wrong comic for you).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: gopher on 23 Feb 2018, 05:58
Hopefully after they make up they can sort out the undelying problems so we don't end up http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1798 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1798).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 23 Feb 2018, 06:05
I'm just visualising the strip when this all gets back to Emily.

EMILY (to a 'deer in the headlights' DALE): "So you think I'm pretty?"

DALE nods

DALE: "Well... Yeah! I mean... Doesn't everyone?"

EMILY (to a totally shocked MARIGOLD): "And you think I'm pretty too?"

MARIGOLD: "What? Yes! No! Not like that! I mean... Yes, if you're into girls... I think?"

One panel of EMILY with a weird thoughtful expression and then...

EMILY glomping DALE and MARIGOLD at the same time

EMILY: "Oh I'm so happy! No-one has ever said I'm pretty before!"

DALE: "Hurf?"

MARIGOLD: "Durf?"
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: ckridge on 23 Feb 2018, 06:52
That's coming - remember how slowly Jeph's story arcs build (and if that doesn't suit you, or tries your patience too far, then maybe this is the wrong comic for you).

I am quite capable of deciding for myself whether and when to stop reading, thank you.

This arc could quite plausibly wrap to a close with another Momo/Marigold session, three strips of reconciliation, and a joke. This would be forgivable. Every narrative needs interludes in which not much happens to lower tension and provide plausible amounts of time between crises. It would be unfortunate, though, because it would suggest that there is a standard love relationship that works by standard rules. Life would be simpler if that were so, but it's just not. 

A sudden spasm of jealous fear is a sudden spasm of fear, and the appropriate short-term response is comfort. In order to decide whether jealousy is appropriate, though, people have to decide how they want to be together. Neither Dale nor Marigold have stopped to examine their feelings and figure out what they want to do, or to explain this to each other.

I really want them to decide that they are having a romantic, exclusive, intense, permanent love relationship that is the most important thing in their lives, because why would anyone jump off a cliff except in hope of flying? Not everyone sees love as jumping off a cliff, though, not everyone sees monogamous romantic love as flying, and therefore not everyone should want what I do. What everyone must do, however, is figure out what they do want and make sure the other person wants the same thing. As unpleasant as it is, you have to look into the depths of your swampy, overgrown, monster-infested heart and figure out which of those various flickering lights moving around in it you are setting your course by. As yet, no one in this arc has done this.

This is particularly important because each of them is the other's first sweetheart, and how they treat each other now is likely to form their ability to love and be loved in the future.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Neko_Ali on 23 Feb 2018, 07:27
Side note: has May ever met Bubbles? Have they/could they talk about fighter jets?

Yes, early on at the party Faye threw to try and draw Bubbles out of her shell. May's reaction was pretty much throwing  up her arms and going 'My Queen!' and insisting that she get pictures when Bubbles and Faye started boning. Honestly I don't know if it's just she's lucky sometimes or better at sussing out early relationships than we give her credit for.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 23 Feb 2018, 07:54
Hopefully after they make up they can sort out the undelying problems so we don't end up http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1798 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1798).

The thing is, this is the advice that it feels like Dale is getting. Go in, smooth it over. No advice on you know, how to deal with the root problem that started the fight. And Marigold doesn't even seem to realize that her jealousy IS a problem, and no one seems to want to point it out either.

Seriously. Every person that Dale works with at Coffee of Doom is an attractive woman. If Marigold gets like that every time that he seems to be having a good time hanging out with one of them at work, this is just going to be a revolving door.

People seem to be thinking that I'm saying that people need to tell her to just get over it. Which is, of course, ridiculous. It takes more effort and time than that. But she doesn't seem to see the issue, and no one is making a point of telling her. Momo literally said that the issue was just miscommunication on both sides.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: cesium133 on 23 Feb 2018, 07:55
Side note: has May ever met Bubbles? Have they/could they talk about fighter jets?

Yes, early on at the party Faye threw to try and draw Bubbles out of her shell. May's reaction was pretty much throwing  up her arms and going 'My Queen!' and insisting that she get pictures when Bubbles and Faye started boning. Honestly I don't know if it's just she's lucky sometimes or better at sussing out early relationships than we give her credit for.

That was Momo's reaction. (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3059) May's reaction was commenting on possible uses for Bubbles' posterior. (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3061)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 23 Feb 2018, 08:38
Like I said, come in apologizing, but you can't just not have the conversation.

Actually, the way Momo and May are addressing it odd entirely to me. Like Momo referred to it as just an issue of miscommunication. Marigold imagining Emily and Dale fucking just because they were laughing when she came in is not a "miscommunication" issue. That is a deeper issue, and it feels bizarre to me that it is being glossed over, even by the person giving her advice.

I agree. I also think their advice is off the mark. Both of them (mostly Momo, but May is doing it today) have been making it out that Dale is *settling* for Marigold, and that Emily is out of his league.

I don't think that's what they are saying or even implying at all.

tbf, it is a little bit. But that's okay. I've heard it explained like this: People have a (conscious and subconscious) list of things they look for in a partner- let's say 10 things. Often that list includes things that are inherently contradictory- safe and exciting, for example, or funny and serious. So finding someone who is 10 out of 10 is essentially possible, But when we find ourselves with someone who scores 7 say, we find we are perfectly happy and content so we cheerfully compromise. But we do still miss those missing 3 things, so when we see someone else who has them, we may think we've found our perfect 10 because they fill in the gaps, without stopping to see if they actually are all that.
(spoilers: they probably wont be.)
The key seems to be to remind yourself of all the things that you do love abut your partner, and focus on those. That certainly seems to be the gist of May's advice.

For the record, I am talking about relationships where things are normally fine and happy. If a relationship is actively making you miserable, you are absolutely not obligated to stay.


Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Case on 23 Feb 2018, 09:46
Nothing to do with the current topic...
But I LOVE Jim's assertion that he can guarantee we (humans) will all still be around in 100 years time!  :)
 :parrot:

Joe, you're scaring the kids Millennials with that Gen-Xer existential realism cynicism ...

(exeunt stage left, softly whistling the intro to "I don't mind at all ..." )
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: swapna on 23 Feb 2018, 11:26

I don't think that's what they are saying or even implying at all.

Really? I get that vibe from Momo, with the "Well, you'd rather have a pilotable Gundam than him!" in response to claims of him preferring Emily, giving a strong inference that Emily is unattainable for Dale in a similar way that a pilotable Gundam would be for Marigold. Also, "He cares for you very much!" is a... weak counterargument to "He'd rather be with someone else than me", again implying that there's no solid argument against Dale preferring Emily, but she's just out of his league.
Tbh, I got the 'Dale is settling for Marigold' vibe too, from May and Momo, which is weird. Dale actively pursued Marigold, in his weird stalker way, and didn't give up when she rejected him a few different ways. I am also not entirely sure how Dale manages to be that socially inept, since he had a lot of jobs, usually with customer interaction (Pharmacy, Pizza delivery, Coffee shop..).

Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: cucumber error on 23 Feb 2018, 11:33
Side note: has May ever met Bubbles? Have they/could they talk about fighter jets?

Yes, early on at the party Faye threw to try and draw Bubbles out of her shell. May's reaction was pretty much throwing  up her arms and going 'My Queen!' and insisting that she get pictures when Bubbles and Faye started boning. Honestly I don't know if it's just she's lucky sometimes or better at sussing out early relationships than we give her credit for.

That was Momo's reaction. (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3059) May's reaction was commenting on possible uses for Bubbles' posterior. (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3061)

May did also want pictures (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3075) of Bubbles out of her armor.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Castlerook on 23 Feb 2018, 12:54

I don't think that's what they are saying or even implying at all.

Really? I get that vibe from Momo, with the "Well, you'd rather have a pilotable Gundam than him!" in response to claims of him preferring Emily, giving a strong inference that Emily is unattainable for Dale in a similar way that a pilotable Gundam would be for Marigold. Also, "He cares for you very much!" is a... weak counterargument to "He'd rather be with someone else than me", again implying that there's no solid argument against Dale preferring Emily, but she's just out of his league.
Tbh, I got the 'Dale is settling for Marigold' vibe too, from May and Momo, which is weird. Dale actively pursued Marigold, in his weird stalker way, and didn't give up when she rejected him a few different ways. I am also not entirely sure how Dale manages to be that socially inept, since he had a lot of jobs, usually with customer interaction (Pharmacy, Pizza delivery, Coffee shop..).

Dale sticking his foot into his mouth with his girlfriend doesn't use the same skill set as customer service. There's a level of professionalism need when dealing with customers, which you can sum up as smiling and not be rude to a stranger (believe me, I know this a gross oversimplification but I don't have time to get into the minutiae), whereas we tend to let our guard down around the people we care about and fuck things up without intending to.

Now, I don't think this is a "One settled for the other" type of storylines. However, I do think its a story about 2 young people who (from what we know) have never been a serious relationship before. This is first major fight we've seen between Marigold and Dale, partially brought on by Marigold's insecurities rearing their ugly heads and partially brought on by Dale's lack of experience with the opposite sex.

The key theme of this arc seems to be learning to being able to communicate with your partner in a clear manner. Dale and Marigold are two young people who need to learn how to communicate as adults.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 23 Feb 2018, 13:49
It keeps being framed about learning to communicate better, but honestly, the situation presented is not that.

On Dale's side, sure, but on Marigold's side, this isn't about communicating, this is about learning to control your feelings.

Also, I think the thing that is being left out when people talk about Dale having no social skills is that that is pretty false. He has no knowledge of dating, but outside of that, he has mostly seemed to get along really well with everyone (I mean, wasn't his introduction that he knew the secret menu?). And the way he interacted with May was not someone lacking in social skills.

Not understanding dating isn't the same thing. (Marigold is much more in the vein of not understanding social skils)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Neko_Ali on 23 Feb 2018, 14:37
A lot could have been avoided if Marigold had told Dale she was feeling kind of jealous instead of leading questions about how great he thinks Emily is.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: SpanielBear on 23 Feb 2018, 14:41
A lot could have been avoided if Marigold had told Dale she was feeling kind of jealous instead of leading questions about how great he thinks Emily is.

“The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.”

Douglas Adams.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 23 Feb 2018, 15:30
You got some people who're apples, and some who're oranges ...

I don't understand how some people interpreted May's speech (quoted in part above, see the comic (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3685) for the whole thing) as saying that Dale is settling. She's referring to apples and oranges (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Apples_and_oranges). Are you unfamiliar with this idiom? Concluding that Emily must therefore be superior to Marigold and Dale is settling is the exact opposite of what the idiom means.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 23 Feb 2018, 15:36
On Dale's side, sure, but on Marigold's side, this isn't about communicating, this is about learning to control your feelings.

I'm being finicky, or maybe I'm misinterpreting you, but it's about developing self-esteem and security in the relationship. It's also about expressing her feelings more effectively and confidently, which is where the communication part comes in.

I think that feeling intensely jealous but controlling her feelings (aka bottling them up) is less healthy than what we've already seen.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: cucumber error on 23 Feb 2018, 16:58
Quote from: Emperor Norton link=top4011.msg1400092#msg1400092 date=1519422554
Also, I think the thing that is being left out when people talk about Dale having no social skills is that that is pretty false. He has no knowledge of dating, but outside of that, he has mostly seemed to get along really well with everyone (I mean, wasn't his introduction that he knew the secret menu?). And the way he interacted with May was not someone lacking in social skills.

Not understanding dating isn't the same thing. (Marigold is much more in the vein of not understanding social skils)

I think this is why more people were surprised at Dale's half of the argument than Marigold's. In most contexts he is much better at interacting with people than she is, so there's some expectation that he could keep in mind that Marigold is insecure, and see a cliched relationship pitfall coming and head it off. But in terms of dating experience they're about equal (as far as we know), so here we are.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: St.Clair on 23 Feb 2018, 17:48
This, right here, is where a lot of relationships fail.  And I don't just mean romantic relationships, I mean all kinds, between two (or more) people.

No, it's not fair.  In this messy, sticky world, it is often going to be the case that it is not possible for both/all involved parties to be 100% fair and equitable to each other at all times.  There will inevitably come a point where someone is asked to give "more than their fair share".
In that situation, you basically have two choices(*) - you end the relationship there, or you extend trust and give more than you "should", hoping that at some point in the future, when you need someone else to be "unfair" in your favor, they will.
On such sacrifices and compromises are couples, families, tribes and societies built.

(* the astute will note that these are the same choices available to a player of Prisoner's Dilemma, and the same game theory and suggestions on optimal play apply.)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 23 Feb 2018, 18:41
The point has been made that unless Marigold gets a boost to her self esteem, the present situation is apt to recur. So what are Marigold's good points?

She has good webmastery and sysadmin skills. She has a curvy bod that looks great in a bikini. She plays tons of video games. So in game, she's great sizing up a situation and reacting appropriately.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 23 Feb 2018, 20:35
She's a geek, she's into gaming, she's into anime. She's got skills. Those are extremely attractive attributes to Dale (not to mention the curvy bod).

Dale and Emily get on well in a work situation. That doesn't necessarily translate into relationship material.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Oenone on 23 Feb 2018, 21:10
I do think it would be interesting, from a storytelling perspective, for Dale to be clear that he’s not settling for Marigold. Like, I kinda felt like Momo was being a bit condescending — to me, her analogy implied that Dale is with Marigold because she’s what’s available/real, vs what he wants. It makes me wonder whether Momo respects Marigold as a worthwhile person, or whether Momo still sees Marigold as a duty she’s taken on as a companion AI.

Also, there’s still Chekov’s pocky setting up the good girlfriend test for Marigold.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: ckridge on 24 Feb 2018, 05:44
So what are Marigold's good points?

She is a hardcore geek girl. She is a hardcore geek girl who likes boys. She is a hardcore geek girl who likes boys and who has not been so mutilated by the girl mutilation machinery as to be incapable of sexual pleasure. Those are like gold, like the golden apples of the sun, like Helen of Troy. They are one of life's great prizes.  Marigold has as yet no idea that this is the case. If Dale fucks this up, Marigold is going to wind up with two or three sweethearts stacked up in holding patterns, and he is going to spend the rest of his life wondering what in the world he was thinking of.


Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 24 Feb 2018, 07:16
Do people really think that becoming incredibly noticeably angry because your boyfriend is laughing at something an attractive female coworker said to him, at work, isn't a problem that needs to be worked on?

This isn't something that communicating better is going to fix.

(I also agree that Momo's wording very much makes it sound like Dale is settling, and May's wording while I think she doesn't mean it that way, "tasty as hell" vs "good, too" does make it not sound like an equal but different comparison. I mean, if someone was like, which of these two dishes do you want, this one is tasty as hell, and this one is good, too, which would you think the person offering liked more?)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 24 Feb 2018, 07:22
On Dale's side, sure, but on Marigold's side, this isn't about communicating, this is about learning to control your feelings.

I'm being finicky, or maybe I'm misinterpreting you, but it's about developing self-esteem and security in the relationship. It's also about expressing her feelings more effectively and confidently, which is where the communication part comes in.

I think that feeling intensely jealous but controlling her feelings (aka bottling them up) is less healthy than what we've already seen.

Controlling your feelings is not bottling them up. Its not letting them control you. If someone started throwing punches when they were angry and I said "you need to control your emotions" would you assume I meant to bottle it up?

She became immediately, noticeably irratated/angry. She had zero contemplation over whether what she was feeling was rational. She immediately just jumped to a conclusion "Dale prefers Emily to me" and then everything she did revolved around that conclusion, driven solely by emotion. Even when Momo tried to talk to her about it just being a miscommunication, she still jumped to that conclusion, again, not considering that she could be anything but right about it. And she honestly has zero contemplation about how her emotions/actions are affecting Dale. Notice that Dale's questions to May are "how do I fix this" whereas Marigold is more concerned about how she feels.

Controlling your emotions is not about bottling up your emotions, its about examining them.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: brightwings00 on 24 Feb 2018, 07:40
Controlling your feelings is not bottling them up. Its not letting them control you. If someone started throwing punches when they were angry and I said "you need to control your emotions" would you assume I meant to bottle it up?

I mean, strictly speaking, the problem isn't they're angry, the problem is that they're throwing punches. If every time they were furious they sat quietly in a chair and did nothing, that would suck for themselves, personally, but there wouldn't be a problem with other people. In your situation I'd go with "hey, stop hitting people" and then a talk about why exactly they're so angry and how they can better handle it.

Quote from: Emperor Norton
She had zero contemplation over whether what she was feeling was rational. She immediately just jumped to a conclusion "Dale prefers Emily to me" and then everything she did revolved around that conclusion, driven solely by emotion. Even when Momo tried to talk to her about it just being a miscommunication, she still jumped to that conclusion, again, not considering that she could be anything but right about it. And she honestly has zero contemplation about how her emotions/actions are affecting Dale. Notice that Dale's questions to May are "how do I fix this" whereas Marigold is more concerned about how she feels.

Feelings aren't rational, though! Believe me, as someone with multiple phobias, I would love to be able to logic my way out of panic attacks, but feelings don't work that way. People feel things, and they may not be nice or fair or reasonable or logical, but they still feel those things, and that's okay! It's okay to feel things. Marigold is allowed to feel jealous. She's not entitled to act like a jerk about feeling jealous, but honestly, if her worst behaviour is asking some pointed questions before storming off in a huff, that's pretty freaking tame. She's not some hideous monster for feeling things.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 24 Feb 2018, 08:08
I am honestly baffled that "hey, check your emotions and try and make sure that they aren't controlling you" is getting blowback.

And no one called Marigold a monster. I've repeatedly said that my issue is that NO ONE in the comic is actually bringing up that that level of jealousy is a problem in and of itself. If you can't handle your SO talking to a coworker and laughing because they happen to be pretty, then there is some fundamental problem that you need to work on. That is not healthy. It's a disproportionate reaction to a frankly benign circumstance.

If I got angry enough to stomp out of the room every time my wife put the Milk in the door of the fridge rather than the main compartment, would you think that that is reasonable and that there is no burden on me to learn to deal with something so small and petty?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: brightwings00 on 24 Feb 2018, 09:28
I am honestly baffled that "hey, check your emotions and try and make sure that they aren't controlling you" is getting blowback.

And no one called Marigold a monster. I've repeatedly said that my issue is that NO ONE in the comic is actually bringing up that that level of jealousy is a problem in and of itself. If you can't handle your SO talking to a coworker and laughing because they happen to be pretty, then there is some fundamental problem that you need to work on. That is not healthy. It's a disproportionate reaction to a frankly benign circumstance.

If I got angry enough to stomp out of the room every time my wife put the Milk in the door of the fridge rather than the main compartment, would you think that that is reasonable and that there is no burden on me to learn to deal with something so small and petty?

Yes, because I have personally experienced the horror of goopy half-solid milk that's gone bad.

More seriously, though, I'm not saying that Marigold doesn't need to learn healthy coping mechanisms, for her own sake and for everyone's sake around her. Nor is she justified in lashing out or treating anyone poorly. I'm saying the most effective therapy sessions I've ever had were where the therapist let me vent, no matter what awful stuff I said--stuff that I would feel terrible about saying to anybody's face, stuff that I don't even really believe--and didn't judge me for it, but let me sit with the anger and resentment, acknowledged it, and then talked me through it. If my therapist had said "Wow, that's really horrible, how can you think like that?", I guarantee you I would've clammed up tight and suppressed everything into a tiny ball until it exploded.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 24 Feb 2018, 09:40
Well, of course, you don't say "Wow that is horrible."

I would probably approach it by reversing the situation.

Something like "Well, what if Angus was visiting, and Dale saw you laughing at something Angus said, and he got upset and stomped out when you said you thought he was funny/smart/handsome whatever in response to some questions? Angus is a funny guy, I mean, his job is to be funny. And he's good-looking, and he is pretty smart."

Marigold is not empathetic and is self-absorbed. And it has nothing to do with malice, intent, or being a bad person or anything like that. When she is made aware of how what she is doing is affecting others, she tends to do the right thing, she just doesn't tend to think from other people's perspective at all. And no one seems to be helping her see how what she is doing is affecting others.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 24 Feb 2018, 09:48
The robots are acting as Hopalong Freud here.

My wife compares their emotional and dramatic role to that of servants in 17th century French plays.

I was so in awe of her nerdhood that I didn't ask what she meant.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 24 Feb 2018, 09:59
On Dale's side, sure, but on Marigold's side, this isn't about communicating, this is about learning to control your feelings.

I'm being finicky, or maybe I'm misinterpreting you, but it's about developing self-esteem and security in the relationship. It's also about expressing her feelings more effectively and confidently, which is where the communication part comes in.

I think that feeling intensely jealous but controlling her feelings (aka bottling them up) is less healthy than what we've already seen.

To me, developing self esteem and security, and expressing feelings instead of what Marigold did, are emotional self-control. They are the strategic version, where an example of tactical control is breaking contact and taking a long walk when angry.

It all takes skill and practice. Marigold's had neither. She's causing unnecessary damage but it's understandable, whether or not it's excusable.

Trying to deny or freeze feelings, which I think is what you mean by "bottling them up", I agree is less healthy. It also doesn't work in the long run.

EDIT: added a badly needed comma.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: brightwings00 on 24 Feb 2018, 10:03
Well, of course, you don't say "Wow that is horrible."

I would probably approach it by reversing the situation.

Something like "Well, what if Angus was visiting, and Dale saw you laughing at something Angus said, and he got upset and stomped out when you said you thought he was funny/smart/handsome whatever in response to some questions? Angus is a funny guy, I mean, his job is to be funny. And he's good-looking, and he is pretty smart."

True, and the talking-it-through-and-being-reasonable part is important. I think it's just important not to suppress or bottle up feelings in favour of being reasonable (which puts you in the 'cool girl' situation)--that it's healthy to let it out in a controlled environment and talk about it and be honest, and have someone acknowledge you and validate you. Which is why, when you mention Marigold being self-absorbed below (and I agree, it's one of her faults), I think she'd benefit from seeing a therapist who can validate her feelings and talk to her about her behaviour from a neutral point of view.

(Honestly, I think everybody would benefit from seeing a therapist once in a while. We go to our doctors for physical checkups but we don't check up on our mental health?)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: jwhouk on 24 Feb 2018, 10:30
Marigold. Foot. Mouth. Extraction method?

Total Members Voted: 51

Intriguing choices, IMHO.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 24 Feb 2018, 10:31
Tactically, you won't make good relationship decisions when the stress hormones are high. It takes an absolute minimum of  20 minutes of self-soothing to get back to normal and 30+ is more likely.

Adrenaline lets you sprint across a dark parking lot and break a bone without noticing it. Useful sometimes but that's not the mindset in which to discuss feelings sensitively.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: ckridge on 24 Feb 2018, 10:55
The robots are acting as Hopalong Freud here.

My wife compares their emotional and dramatic role to that of servants in 17th century French plays.

I was so in awe of her nerdhood that I didn't ask what she meant.

Aww. Bragging on your wife. Sweetest damned thing.

But I wish you had asked. Are the servants more rational because less emotional because less refined and sensitive?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 24 Feb 2018, 13:16
I'll ask next chance I get.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: A Duck on 24 Feb 2018, 13:41
This whole mess is all too familiar to me. Those two poor creatures should be incredibly glad they have Momo and May to deal with their crap.

Also, May is surprisingly emotionally intelligent when she applies herself.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Gyrre on 24 Feb 2018, 14:31
The robots are acting as Hopalong Freud here.

My wife compares their emotional and dramatic role to that of servants in 17th century French plays.

I was so in awe of her nerdhood that I didn't ask what she meant.

Aww. Bragging on his wife. Sweetest damned thing.

But I wish you had asked. Are the servants more rational because less emotional because less refined and sensitive?
It could also be a development of the 'clever slave' trope from Ancient Roman and Greek plays.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 24 Feb 2018, 16:02
I am honestly baffled that "hey, check your emotions and try and make sure that they aren't controlling you" is getting blowback.

Sorry, didn't mean for my comment to be interpreted that way. I said I may be misinterpreting, and now I've read your further comments, I believe I was. Thanks for explaining.

Do people really think that becoming incredibly noticeably angry because your boyfriend is laughing at something an attractive female coworker said to him, at work, isn't a problem that needs to be worked on?

Of course people don't think that.

Seriously, I think that we are substantially in agreement. Sorry if I have been unclear on that point. Our only difference, really, is that I am confident that Marigold's jealousy issue (more fundamentally her self esteem issue) will be addressed in due course.

When she is made aware of how what she is doing is affecting others, she tends to do the right thing, she just doesn't tend to think from other people's perspective at all. And no one seems to be helping her see how what she is doing is affecting others.

I'm talking out of my backside, so I could be wrong, but my feeling is that this is something that can occur with insecure and introverted people. I have a tendency to be that way myself - it's something I've had to work on. Maybe that's why I empathise with Marigold.

This is where communication comes into play. Sorry to come back to it. Just remember communication isn't just expressing yourself properly. It's also listening. This, and leaving the conversation until calm (which she's already doing), is the best way for her to manage her emotions IMO.

Interesting. Someone awhile ago was asking why Jeph doesn't show why he likes Marigold so much. Instead all we see are these flaws. Doesn't make sense, right? Well, if it wasn't obvious before, maybe it is now that he's given her an exaggerated overbite and comment that he's "made her cuter".

She is his favourite because of her flaws.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Oenone on 24 Feb 2018, 17:13
Right, but I'm wondering if part of the reason she’s caught up in that set of feels is because Momo is reinforcing it.

Momo is like, “heck yeah Dale WOULD rather be with Emily, but she is unattainable, like a Mecha. It’s silly to be jealous of that.” Instead of “Dale actively pursued you for ages, has gone out of his way to be interested in the same things as you, and has been patient when you’ve been awkward. What would he have to do to prove he wants to be with you? Where are your insecurities coming from?”

Because Momo has been so good at getting Marigold to talk about feelings before, I feel like this convo as is reveals that Momo doesn’t necessarily believe Marigold is a catch on her own, and that Dale is in some way settling.

ETA: ...y’all my phone just posted this and I think I wrote it last night.... idk if that makes it a derail or a rerail lol



Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 24 Feb 2018, 17:39
Momo is like, “heck yeah Dale WOULD rather be with Emily, but she is unattainable, like a Mecha. It’s silly to be jealous of that.”

I've already mentioned that I disagree with this interpretation, so I won't go over it again. I'll just refer you to my previous comment on this topic (re: apples and oranges).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Oenone on 24 Feb 2018, 17:47
Found it! I see what you’re saying. I disagree tho, because introducing the Mecha element made it more like different gradations of apples re quality and accessibility. Either way, I’m sure it’ll make for great story — I’m curious what Momo and May will recount to each other during their inevitable WTF!Humans check in.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 24 Feb 2018, 17:48
The robots are acting as Hopalong Freud here.

My wife compares their emotional and dramatic role to that of servants in 17th century French plays.

I was so in awe of her nerdhood that I didn't ask what she meant.

Aww. Bragging on your wife. Sweetest damned thing.

But I wish you had asked. Are the servants more rational because less emotional because less refined and sensitive?

Quote from: my wife
I meant mostly that the relationships involving robots serve as counterpoint story lines to the human-to-human ones. It allows the dramatist (here, Jeff) to offer different perspectives on the same issues and the same characters, from those whose social standing and roles in the society are different enough to give them differing outlooks. Also, their brains function differently, which can be the case with some humans as well. He has done the same with certain human characters (e.g., Claire, Hannelore.)

In those old French comedies, yes, it's understood that the servants are less refined and sensitive, and much less educated, but as servants they're often aspiring to be more like their "betters" (hence, servant romances where a valet tries to use high-flown poetic language to woo a ladies' maid, offering great comedic potential.)  That's usually not the case with QC robots, but yes, the often-less-refined thing is.

In those plays, the servants are sometimes more rational because they tend to be more practical, although rationality isn't the strong suit in either comedy or drama--the best stories come from characters who run their lives from their emotions. Because of the servants' lower standing--the fact that nobody has to pay that much attention to what they say, they can comment on obvious things about the other characters and their situations that the upper-class characters are too polite to say. (This is true of plays from other cultures as well--there are many examples in Shakespeare.) In this connection, for QC think Pintsize or May.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Case on 24 Feb 2018, 17:54
Ok, IICIH's wife wins the nerdthrone. Everybody can go home now.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: ckridge on 24 Feb 2018, 18:04
That's kind of beautiful. It opens up new ways of reading the strip. Thank you.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 24 Feb 2018, 23:24
Found it! I see what you’re saying. I disagree tho, because introducing the Mecha element made it more like different gradations of apples re quality and accessibility.

Okay, yes, I see what you mean re Momo's speech. I was thinking of May's, but that's not what you were referring to.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 25 Feb 2018, 00:29
Sorry for the double post.

So, I was listening to some music and decided to play the Coco soundtrack. When I came to the track titled Everyone Knows Juanita, I immediately thought of this thread. It's a short simple song that goes to the heart of the strange and ineffable nature of human attraction. It seemed relevant to this conversation, so here it is.

https://youtu.be/c8q-pzrEIPc
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Case on 25 Feb 2018, 01:01
Found it! I see what you’re saying. I disagree tho, because introducing the Mecha element made it more like different gradations of apples re quality and accessibility.

Okay, yes, I see what you mean re Momo's speech. I was thinking of May's, but that's not what you were referring to.

Hmmmh - I read it as another 'finish the comic on a punchline'-line. Way I read them, they're meant to be funny, not to be carefully inspected for deeper implications.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 25 Feb 2018, 01:49
Yeah, well. It's What We Do Here (tm).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: ckridge on 25 Feb 2018, 06:55
Quote from: Case link=topic=34011.msg1400184#msg1400184 date=1519549316

Way I read them, they're meant to be funny, not to be carefully inspected for deeper implications.
[/quote

Both, of course.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: ckridge on 25 Feb 2018, 07:23
The great thing about stories is that you can take them apart to see how they work and to look at them from all angles without hurting them, and they go right back together afterward.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: JimC on 25 Feb 2018, 08:31
She is his favourite because of her flaws.
Well yeah. Perfect characters are mind bogglingly tedious in fiction. In real life too I expect.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Gyrre on 25 Feb 2018, 09:25
She is his favourite because of her flaws.
Well yeah. Perfect characters are mind bogglingly tedious in fiction. In real life too I expect.
Though, if handled correctly, they can be interesting. Mary Sue from the webcomic League of Redunt Superheroes for example.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: gopher on 25 Feb 2018, 10:09
She is his favourite because of her flaws.
Well yeah. Perfect characters are mind bogglingly tedious in fiction. In real life too I expect.
I get by.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 25 Feb 2018, 12:16
The great thing about stories is that you can take them apart to see how they work and to look at them from all angles without hurting them, and they go right back together afterward.

Not always. Bellisario would like a word with you.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: ckridge on 25 Feb 2018, 13:11
"Don't examine this too closely" means "Don't examine this too closely while I am here." You can do whatever you want without the person who asked you not to examine it too closely not present. The story isn't actually part of them. They are attached to it, but only figuratively. The story itself doesn't care one way or another.

That said, the first task in reading a story is to find the point of view from which everything is perfect and the author is right. Not doing that is like standing too close to an Impressionist painting of trees and asserting loudly that you don't see anything but smudges. All you have done is establish that you don't know how to look at pictures. Your first job is always to find the right way to look at the work. Comic strips are simple enough that there are usually several ways to make them come out right, each with its own advantages and disadvantages.

Once you've done that, though, you are free. You can take the thing part with hatred, trying to find every bad impulse it expresses. You can take it apart with love, finding how it contains the whole world and its operating instructions too. You can take it apart with mockery, finding everything absurd and oddly proportioned in it. Each time you find a little bit more about it. If you have a really good story, every so often it blows up in your face while you are tinkering with it, knocking you ass over teakettle so that suddenly everything looks different. It is perverse pleasure, but substantial.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: jwhouk on 25 Feb 2018, 14:10
Mr. Hodgson would like to talk to you about that, but his bosses didn't like him so they shot him into spa-aaace...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Tova on 25 Feb 2018, 15:14
Let me rephrase. I personally find that overanalysis can kill even the best stories.

That's just me. You, of course, are free to overanalyse to your heart's content, if you so choose.

She is his favourite because of her flaws.
Well yeah. Perfect characters are mind bogglingly tedious in fiction. In real life too I expect.
I get by.

« Last Edit: Today at 08:10:54 by gopher »

I appreciated the meta-humour. :D
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Gyrre on 25 Feb 2018, 19:15
Sorry for the double post.

So, I was listening to some music and decided to play the Coco soundtrack. When I came to the track titled Everyone Knows Juanita, I immediately thought of this thread. It's a short simple song that goes to the heart of the strange and ineffable nature of human attraction. It seemed relevant to this conversation, so here it is.

https://youtu.be/c8q-pzrEIPc
I knew I recognized that song title!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 26 Feb 2018, 03:15
Let me rephrase. I personally find that overanalysis can kill even the best stories.


ALL the way, this!

There's a well loved poster on Willis' oeuvre who dissects each panel to the Nth degree.
Al lot of people who post there "say" they like that.

Me? I blip right past them.

(https://wellthisiswhatithink.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/meaning.jpg?w=614)

Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Cornelius on 26 Feb 2018, 03:36
Just about lesson one in narratology: your interpretation is your own, no matter how much you may think that's what the author meant.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: Thrudd on 27 Feb 2018, 08:55
With respect to that Venn diagram on just how much a teacher can get something wrong - My little brother took a course in uni and the prof was failing a certain mature student who was argumentative about key points on the subject matter until mud terms. The story goes that the student went to the dean to complain about the prof and how they were getting the course material completely wrong. The dean was fully supportive of the prof until the student put the course text on his desk and asked him if the prof wrote the book. In a comedy film there would be the sound effects of grinding gears and screeching tires. - Why yes this mature student was the author of the book and his picture was on the back of the dust jacket -  The gentleman in question did not have the appropriate degree for his position under government contract so his company sponsored his return to school to keep the bureaucrats happy. - I think the former prof is now selling real-estate  :roll:
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 27 Feb 2018, 09:00
With respect to that Venn diagram on just how much a teacher can get something wrong - My little brother took a course in uni and the prof was failing a certain mature student who was argumentative about key points on the subject matter until mud terms. The story goes that the student went to the dean to complain about the prof and how they were getting the course material completely wrong. The dean was fully supportive of the prof until the student put the course text on his desk and asked him if the prof wrote the book. In a comedy film there would be the sound effects of grinding gears and screeching tires. - Why yes this mature student was the author of the book and his picture was on the back of the dust jacket -  The gentleman in question did not have the appropriate degree for his position under government contract so his company sponsored his return to school to keep the bureaucrats happy. - I think the former prof is now selling real-estate  :roll:

"Wouldn't it be great if real life were like that...?"

(Two Woody Allen quotes in as many weeks? People'll start talking about me!)