Jeph Jacques's comics discussion forums

Comic Discussion => QUESTIONABLE CONTENT => Topic started by: BenRG on 29 Apr 2018, 14:31

Title: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 29 Apr 2018, 14:31
Jeph has a lot of plates spinning right now (and one or two that he could set in motion. Which open arc would you like to see reach some manner of a conclusion first?

If I'd like to see Roko's arc concluded first. Why? Because of all of the characters I mentioned in the poll, I think she is the one most genuinely suffering from it being unresolved. I guess I'm a softie really but I'd like to see her at least get out of her current 'I can't do this' behavioural lock in some way. Also, I think that it would be possible to close this arc of Roko's story the fastest; the other open arcs are really going to take a lot longer to address.

Regarding this week..? You know, I don't want to guess right now. However, I think that we're going to see more of Faye and Bubbles and I'd like to see more of Hannelore's travels too!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: OldGoat on 29 Apr 2018, 20:48
I agree with Ben - poor Roko's frustration is palpable.   She's also working in a socially isolating job that makes healthy relationships difficult to come by.

Oh Jeph, author of the QC universe, have mercy upon your daughter Roko and send her a good and regular shag.  So mote it be.

</blasphemy>
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: ImVeryAngryItsNotButter on 29 Apr 2018, 21:37
Oh boy, more Faye/Bubbles teasing that won't go anywhere. I sure do love it when webcomic authors toy with my emotions.  :psyduck:
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Mordhaus on 29 Apr 2018, 21:37
Panel 3 is hilarious, reminds me of that line from the original (good) Robocop. "Madam, you have suffered an emotional shock. I will notify a r*** crisis center."
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: brasca on 29 Apr 2018, 22:06
Is it just me or does Bubble's ponytail appear to be tensing up?  I know AIs can blush so I suppose that's a built in capability too. 
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Bad Superman on 29 Apr 2018, 22:22
I voted for Marten/Claire, mostly because I still regard Marten as part of the "main cast" (I even used to think of him as the main character, but that belief is long gone), and he hasn't got much spotlight for quite some time now. I realize that his and Claire's story might not be very high on everyone's priority list right now, but still…

Considering today's comic we might get more Faye/Bubbles this week, and I'm perfectly fine with that because Bubbles behavior towards Faye just has such an innocent quality to it… It's adorable.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: efindumb on 29 Apr 2018, 22:26
Is it just me or does Bubble's ponytail appear to be tensing up?  I know AIs can blush so I suppose that's a built in capability too.

It's part of her face contorting in embarrassment over Faye's unintentional flirtations, it's little different than her eyebrows being raised as well
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: efindumb on 29 Apr 2018, 22:31
I voted for Marten/Claire, mostly because I still regard Marten as part of the "main cast" (I even used to think of him as the main character, but that belief is long gone), and he hasn't got much spotlight for quite some time now. I realize that his and Claire's story might not be very high on everyone's priority list right now, but still…

Considering today's comic we might get more Faye/Bubbles this week, and I'm perfectly fine with that because Bubbles behavior towards Faye just has such an innocent quality to it… It's adorable.

There's only two things Jeph can really do with the couple: split them up or marry them off. They are already sexual and live together, the next step forward is marriage. Conversely, the next step back is breaking up over something one of them may do but given the personalities, neither will break it off.

So they are stagnant, especially Marten. At least Claire has a chance to develop in other ways but Jeph isn't going down that road yet....perhaps a backstory arc?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Penquin47 on 29 Apr 2018, 22:35
I voted for Marten/Claire, mostly because I still regard Marten as part of the "main cast" (I even used to think of him as the main character, but that belief is long gone), and he hasn't got much spotlight for quite some time now. I realize that his and Claire's story might not be very high on everyone's priority list right now, but still…

Considering today's comic we might get more Faye/Bubbles this week, and I'm perfectly fine with that because Bubbles behavior towards Faye just has such an innocent quality to it… It's adorable.

There's only two things Jeph can really do with the couple: split them up or marry them off. They are already sexual and live together, the next step forward is marriage. Conversely, the next step back is breaking up over something one of them may do but given the personalities, neither will break it off.

So they are stagnant, especially Marten. At least Claire has a chance to develop in other ways but Jeph isn't going down that road yet....perhaps a backstory arc?

They could have a fight that sends Claire into something of a panic because this is her first serious relationship and she's messing it up, but Marten has learned from Dora and Padma and does better about actively pursuing her to talk it out?
We know Claire's a grad student but we don't know how far into her program she is; she can freak out over what she's going to do next and how that's going to affect things with Marten.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: shanejayell on 29 Apr 2018, 22:40
DAMN IT FAYE....  :-D :lol: :laugh: :evil:
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 29 Apr 2018, 22:47
If Faye were a teenager I might think this was a way of getting an interested person to touch her.

Grown-up Faye would just come right out and ask.

Her subconscious has got to have figured out by now that Bubbles is Interested. Maybe it's directing her away from the ice pack and away from self-massage deliberately.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 29 Apr 2018, 23:15
Remember, Faye told herself that Bubbles can't possibly be falling for her so she isn't going to admit to herself that this may have any content other than her friend massaging away a knot in her muscles. Meanwhile, I've got the feeling that Bubbles doesn't know at this point whether she's conscious or whether this is one of her most fevered fantasies coming true!

Why is Bubbles reluctant (other than her stated reasons)? I suspect that this is a bit too intimate a physical contact for her peace of mind. I suspect that she doesn't know if she'd be able to observe boundaries and is afraid that Faye will reject her when she goes too far, something that would probably be the most painful experience she can imagine.

The shipper in me makes me wonder if Bubbles will do something silly like 'try to kiss it better' after finishing the massage. Given the location, this could lead to... complications.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: OldGoat on 29 Apr 2018, 23:30
I voted for Marten/Claire, mostly because I still regard Marten as part of the "main cast" (I even used to think of him as the main character, but that belief is long gone), and he hasn't got much spotlight for quite some time now. I realize that his and Claire's story might not be very high on everyone's priority list right now, but still…

Considering today's comic we might get more Faye/Bubbles this week, and I'm perfectly fine with that because Bubbles behavior towards Faye just has such an innocent quality to it… It's adorable.

There's only two things Jeph can really do with the couple: split them up or marry them off. They are already sexual and live together, the next step forward is marriage. Conversely, the next step back is breaking up over something one of them may do but given the personalities, neither will break it off.

So they are stagnant, especially Marten. At least Claire has a chance to develop in other ways but Jeph isn't going down that road yet....perhaps a backstory arc?
Mature behavior just isn't very entertaining.  If it was, Jerry Springer would have no television career.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: gopher on 30 Apr 2018, 00:35
Bow-Chika-Wa-Wa.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Gyrre on 30 Apr 2018, 01:48
Faye is definitely putting blinders on.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 30 Apr 2018, 02:56
Probably TOTALLY over-thinking this, but...

I'd like the El/Bru/Clin triangle resolved mainly because this constant dancing around is starting to get a little dull.
I'd like to see Roko a bit more as I like the character.
Bubbles and Faye... Never liked the shipping of them, but still think Bubbles character is the best realised in the strip... and seeing Faye as a foil for this is really underusing her.
Marten/Claire... Purely for the strip's benefit, they need to split up. Of the male characters in the strip, all of them seem to be taking a back seat in recent times. I'm afraid I don't find many of them particularly interesting, but I always liked Marten's character (more relatable I suppose) and his relationship with Claire has thrown him so far into the background that his recent strip with Pintsize was like finding an old friend. The dynamics of Marten and Faye were always worth reading, and Marten and Dora was an excellent study of how a dysfunctional relationship can still work, and also be entertaining (and sometimes moving) to read. I always found the Marten/Claire dynamic dull... and their lack of strip time sort of backs that up.

I was going somewhere with this, but it took me so long to write the above, I forgot what it was...
Joy.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: efindumb on 30 Apr 2018, 03:04
I voted for Marten/Claire, mostly because I still regard Marten as part of the "main cast" (I even used to think of him as the main character, but that belief is long gone), and he hasn't got much spotlight for quite some time now. I realize that his and Claire's story might not be very high on everyone's priority list right now, but still…

Considering today's comic we might get more Faye/Bubbles this week, and I'm perfectly fine with that because Bubbles behavior towards Faye just has such an innocent quality to it… It's adorable.

There's only two things Jeph can really do with the couple: split them up or marry them off. They are already sexual and live together, the next step forward is marriage. Conversely, the next step back is breaking up over something one of them may do but given the personalities, neither will break it off.

So they are stagnant, especially Marten. At least Claire has a chance to develop in other ways but Jeph isn't going down that road yet....perhaps a backstory arc?
Mature behavior just isn't very entertaining.  If it was, Jerry Springer would have no television career.

And it's why Dora hasn't been featured in a long time, her Coffee of Doom appearances aside. The two most unstable characters have now turned into the most stable, while the most stable in the past has now turned into the most unstable...Faye's breakdown could have turned the world upside down!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: efindumb on 30 Apr 2018, 03:07
I voted for Marten/Claire, mostly because I still regard Marten as part of the "main cast" (I even used to think of him as the main character, but that belief is long gone), and he hasn't got much spotlight for quite some time now. I realize that his and Claire's story might not be very high on everyone's priority list right now, but still…

Considering today's comic we might get more Faye/Bubbles this week, and I'm perfectly fine with that because Bubbles behavior towards Faye just has such an innocent quality to it… It's adorable.

There's only two things Jeph can really do with the couple: split them up or marry them off. They are already sexual and live together, the next step forward is marriage. Conversely, the next step back is breaking up over something one of them may do but given the personalities, neither will break it off.

So they are stagnant, especially Marten. At least Claire has a chance to develop in other ways but Jeph isn't going down that road yet....perhaps a backstory arc?

They could have a fight that sends Claire into something of a panic because this is her first serious relationship and she's messing it up, but Marten has learned from Dora and Padma and does better about actively pursuing her to talk it out?
We know Claire's a grad student but we don't know how far into her program she is; she can freak out over what she's going to do next and how that's going to affect things with Marten.

He has a limited range of options for her employment, either a public library or a college library. She could end up in a choice of moving away to accept the job or staying there and hoping a job opens up in the region...or in other words, it's Angus and Faye all over again.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 30 Apr 2018, 03:13
Personally, I think that it is possible to do things with Marten and Dora without creating entirely artificial DRAMA! as that is, IMO, lazy writing.

My favourite Marten ideas is for him to pursue his musical ambitions (perhaps by writing works for Deathmřle or maybe Sven) or maybe stumbling backwards into music criticism and journalism by way of the Professor of Music at Smif being very impressed with is blog. With regard to Dora, I'd like for her and Tai to be seen confronting her parents and their role in Dora's neuroses.

Being a romantic at heart, I've long wanted an arc where Marten proposes to Claire at Coffee of Doom (after hiring the place for a 'private party', something that Dora never thought that would ever happen). Naturally, it all gets awkward because of the number of former crushes and GFs who end up attending to congratulate him and approve of his choice on several levels.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Welu on 30 Apr 2018, 03:14
My birthday strip this year is more fuel on the Faye/Bubbles fire. I'm okay with this.

Has Bubbles always had the seam line around her pelvis? Or has it been hidden by shorts or trousers? It looks a little odd with the leotard, more action figure-y and less like she's wearing something.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Pennepasta on 30 Apr 2018, 03:25
I voted for Marten/Claire, mostly because I still regard Marten as part of the "main cast" (I even used to think of him as the main character, but that belief is long gone), and he hasn't got much spotlight for quite some time now. I realize that his and Claire's story might not be very high on everyone's priority list right now, but still…

Considering today's comic we might get more Faye/Bubbles this week, and I'm perfectly fine with that because Bubbles behavior towards Faye just has such an innocent quality to it… It's adorable.

There's only two things Jeph can really do with the couple: split them up or marry them off. They are already sexual and live together, the next step forward is marriage. Conversely, the next step back is breaking up over something one of them may do but given the personalities, neither will break it off.

So they are stagnant, especially Marten. At least Claire has a chance to develop in other ways but Jeph isn't going down that road yet....perhaps a backstory arc?

They could have a fight that sends Claire into something of a panic because this is her first serious relationship and she's messing it up, but Marten has learned from Dora and Padma and does better about actively pursuing her to talk it out?
We know Claire's a grad student but we don't know how far into her program she is; she can freak out over what she's going to do next and how that's going to affect things with Marten.

He has a limited range of options for her employment, either a public library or a college library. She could end up in a choice of moving away to accept the job or staying there and hoping a job opens up in the region...or in other words, it's Angus and Faye all over again.

Not as limited as it might appear. Academic libraries, be they college, school, or what, and public libraries, are, of course, both options, though pre 16 school libraries may require teaching qualifications. Then you've got the archivist side of things, private collections etc., As well as government or security side, but that requires moving, though local government records are an option.  Archivist or private collection (an example would be the local cathedral having archivists, as well as local stuff like whatever my partner worked for during her masters) would work locally, but what would change? How would a job change impact their relationship? Something like Tai leaving and Claire replacing her could be interesting. Or Claire becoming an actual librarian, as she'll be qualified for it soon. But would that provide interesting strips?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 30 Apr 2018, 03:25
He has a limited range of options for her employment, either a public library or a college library. She could end up in a choice of moving away to accept the job or staying there and hoping a job opens up in the region...or in other words, it's Angus and Faye all over again.

Difference being, that Angus and Faye were at least an interesting read.
I always wondered if Angus was put on the bus because he was taking away from "Marten & Faye".

Problem now is, Faye's been reduced to a 2nd level 'shipping' fantasy and Marten is MIA.
I always kinda saw Marten as the Charlie Brown of this strip... the loveable 'loser' who always had problems with his relationships/friends... but now he's settled... and, sorry, but I don't find the bulk of the remaining characters that interesting. (So much so that I struggle to remember their names sometimes... I had to think for a good few mins to remember Marigold's name, and I cannot think what her "light glasses" boyfriends name is right now... (maybe it's an age thing)).

Bubbles, certainly, but not as shipper fodder.
Hanners, lots of potential.
But it seems to me that most of the AI cast have almost become the focus of the strip... they are far more interesting/amusing/entertaining than the bulk of the humans right now.

I think the fact is, simply, that Jeph writes really good emotional fraught material, and really funny character interaction skits. But, for a while now, everything has seemed a bit too... I dunno... "Run-on-Sit-Com-will-they-won't-they", for too many characters. (Certainly for the characters being focussed on for the last wee while.)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 30 Apr 2018, 03:28
My birthday strip this year is more fuel on the Faye/Bubbles fire. I'm okay with this.

Has Bubbles always had the seam line around her pelvis? Or has it been hidden by shorts or trousers? It looks a little odd with the leotard, more action figure-y and less like she's wearing something.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!  :)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Milayna on 30 Apr 2018, 05:27
Well that was unexpected, as avoidant as Faye had been I wouldn't have thought she'd do anything that could possibly come across as flirtatious. Especially after the previous comic...and I was surprised she said "maybe" then, too. Maybe she's starting to come around to the idea and cautiously exploring the edges.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 30 Apr 2018, 05:30
Well that was unexpected, as avoidant as Faye had been I wouldn't have thought she'd do anything that could possibly come across as flirtatious. Especially after the previous comic...and I was surprised she said "maybe" then, too. Maybe she's starting to come around to the idea and cautiously exploring the edges.

That's the thing: Faye seems to have convinced herself that Bubbles can't be crushing on her. Because of that, she's failing to consider her actions carefully. So, she's responding to Bubbles' occasional flirtations and being unselfconscious around Bubbles because she doesn't consciously realise how bad (or good) that could be for their friendship.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: awgiedawgie on 30 Apr 2018, 07:47
Being a romantic at heart, I've long wanted an arc where Marten proposes to Claire at Coffee of Doom (after hiring the place for a 'private party', something that Dora never thought that would ever happen). Naturally, it all gets awkward because of the number of former crushes and GFs who end up attending to congratulate him and approve of his choice on several levels.
I like the first half of that, but the latter part seems a bit far-fetched. Other than Dora, the only ex Marten has in the area is Vicky (I think I remembered her name right), and it’s not likely anyone would invite her to a private party for Marten.


On a side-note, it occurs to me that Steve and Cosette are missing from the poll. Like Marten/Claire, their relationship seems to be in stasis right now, but it would be kind of interesting to see it progress. I don’t want them to break up, but if they did, it would be interesting to see Tortura’s reaction when she found out.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: cesium133 on 30 Apr 2018, 07:55
Some characters get fed to allosauruses. Others get fed to pigs. (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3428)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: awgiedawgie on 30 Apr 2018, 08:09
Some characters get fed to allosauruses. Others get fed to pigs. (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3428)
That was Sara’s own fault for trying to make friends with the allosaurus in the first place.


I know that’s what Tortura said she would do, but it would be interesting to see if she’d follow through, or if — depending on the circumstances — she would instead give her a big hug and ask if she’s OK... sort of like Veronica did with Dora.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 30 Apr 2018, 11:00
My birthday strip this year is more fuel on the Faye/Bubbles fire. I'm okay with this.


Happy Birthday! Hope its a fantastic day!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Zebediah on 30 Apr 2018, 11:57
Some characters get fed to allosauruses. Others get fed to pigs. (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3428)
That was Sara’s own fault for trying to make friends with the allosaurus in the first place.


I know that’s what Tortura said she would do, but it would be interesting to see if she’d follow through, or if — depending on the circumstances — she would instead give her a big hug and ask if she’s OK... sort of like Veronica did with Dora.

“Okay, girl? Will be all right. Come, we get coffee, talk about how men are scum. Feed you to pigs tomorrow.”
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Bad Superman on 30 Apr 2018, 12:39
That's the thing: Faye seems to have convinced herself that Bubbles can't be crushing on her. Because of that, she's failing to consider her actions carefully. So, she's responding to Bubbles' occasional flirtations and being unselfconscious around Bubbles because she doesn't consciously realise how bad (or good) that could be for their friendship.

For me, Faye's behaviour in her interaction with Bubbles screams 'freudian slip'.
I think both of them feel some kind of pull towards each other (Bubbles much more clearly than Faye) but neither of them wants to rock the boat.

That being said, I think their story arc should get resolved (or at least taken to the next a new stage of development) sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Morituri on 30 Apr 2018, 12:39
Sigh.  Thinking about other people's romances, before they happen, annoys me.  A lot.  I wish people wouldn't. 

I think mostly it annoys me because of personal experience with it - people who've already decided who you should get together with, and it isn't them, are absolute poison. 

At best they're Clinton's overreaching sister who tries to set him up with someone because she can't resist meddling.  At worst they're the guy trying to assuage his own guilt for dumping his girlfriend, who still wants to get rid of her by pushing her together with you, who's then going to get emotionally abusive to drive her away, then call up drunk at 3 am to try to get her to come back, etc ad nauseam.  Why yes, I am thinking of someone specific.  Someone who is one of the reasons why I hate this kind of concern for other people's romances so much.

If I'm not personally the object of their attention, it's still just petty gossip, and it diminishes my perception of people when they behave like petty gossips.  I just wind up waiting for it to be over, and hoping people will stop behaving that way. 

So anyway....  To make it short, I'm uncomfortable with the shipping.  I dislike it, usually avoid threads where it's the main event, and sincerely miss the eager enforcement of the no-shipping rule this board used to have.  I personally find it upsetting when the main WCDT is mainly gossipy speculation about romantic/sexual relationships.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 30 Apr 2018, 19:51
Happy birthday Welu!

Global Moderator Comment Morituri, we're listening. Finding the right level for anti-shipping vigilance has been a challenge.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: fayelovesbubbles on 30 Apr 2018, 20:09
I was sure Faye was trying to seduce Bubbles here.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Rincewind on 30 Apr 2018, 20:23
Looks like Bubbles is just about ready to vent some steam!  Kind of reminds me of an old anime I liked, called (in English) "Heat-guy J".  About a very large combat android that worked with human sort-of-police.  Serious combat would cause a lot of heat to build up, and he'd have to vent it from a bunch of exaust pipes that would pop out of his "skin".  Made a noise like an air-raid siren having an orgasm.  Laughed 'til I cried the first time I heard it.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Magniras on 30 Apr 2018, 20:39
It's always satisfying when you make a girl make that noise with your fingers.  :-D
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: awgiedawgie on 30 Apr 2018, 20:48
My fundamental problem with the whole Faye/Bubbles ship is that Faye has more than once shown a negative response when someone brought up the idea of her hooking up with an AI. On one hand, she may be only irritated by the crude nature of the comments in question (understandably so, since one was from Pintsize (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2262), and another from May (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3075)) - which is how the shippers have explained it away. On the other hand, she may, in fact, be truly uncomfortable with the whole idea, and not just the manner in which it was brought up.


Bubbles seems to indeed be leaning that direction, but I'm still not at all convinced that Faye feels the same way.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: St.Clair on 30 Apr 2018, 21:28
So, looks like we're gonna find out whether Bubbles' (presumably custom/milspec) chassis vents excess heat in the same way as Ofc. Basilisk's.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: brasca on 30 Apr 2018, 21:57
So, looks like we're gonna find out whether Bubbles' (presumably custom/milspec) chassis vents excess heat in the same way as Ofc. Basilisk's.

We've already seen that although I can't recall the strip. 

I'm not surprised Bubbles can give a good massage since those servos of hers were designed to deactivate bombs.  Perhaps a side business as a masseuse could tide over Union Robotics when business is slow.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Morituri on 30 Apr 2018, 22:06

 Finding the right level for anti-shipping vigilance has been a challenge.


Thanks.  I know it has.  I felt a sort of need to say something, just to prevent it from going unnoticed. But I accept that others have different opinions and that my preference of how to spend time and resources on this board is not more important than anyone else's. 

Whatever.  I shall do my best to ignore it and just let the story unfold at its own pace.  Maybe Jeph will resolve that particular question within a year.  Maybe not.  I'm fine either way. 

To everyone else?  I advocate avoiding getting so hung up on that one thing that it becomes difficult to appreciate the rest of the work that goes into it, anyhow. That's too easy once you start thinking of just that one thing as THE story.  But, you know, that's just my opinion.  You can use it if you like....



Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 30 Apr 2018, 23:28
Bubbles, for the record, that is Faye's 'Happy Button'. In future, if you want to make her forget what she's talking about and why, you need to press there. Ask Claire if you need advice on methodology as there's a similar control on the left side of Marten's neck.

Meanwhile, I'm guessing we've got a 'FWEEEE' coolant release in the future or whatever the human equivalent is from Faye!

Now, some 'is it just me?': In panel 2, does Faye collapse against Bubbles' leg because of her pressing said 'happy button'? From the change in the posture of her hips, I'd say 'yes'. It probably also indicates how focussed Bubbles is on not spooking and/or hurting Faye that she hasn't noticed yet.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: anahata on 30 Apr 2018, 23:50
I think [Faye and Bubbles] story arc should get resolved (or at least taken to the next a new stage of development) sooner rather than later.

No, let it take its time. I'm enjoying the slow burn. (wherever it's going)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Bad Superman on 01 May 2018, 00:26
*murloc noises*

Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: ankhtahr on 01 May 2018, 01:09
Wasn't the usual forum accepted level of shipping to keep it topical about the current comics? There isn't much about the latest comics, except shipping fodder, and light speculation about this isn't far fetched. Speculation about other characters, who should break up, who should hook up, that's a little bit far imho. Even the speculation about Faye and Bubbles can be a bit too much, but at least it's what the current strips are about.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Thrillho on 01 May 2018, 04:30
When I read this morning's comic I literally said 'AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW SHIT SON' out loud.

Then chastised myself via inner monologue over cultural appropriation, but you know.

I personally find it upsetting when the main WCDT is mainly gossipy speculation about romantic/sexual relationships.

The moderators are in discussion about this, but do bear in mind that the 'no shipping' rule was mainly due to how outlandish the shipping was; the strip is itself laying out a lot of potential relationships so it's become more complicated, but we're talking about it in the mod forum.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 01 May 2018, 04:39
When I read this morning's comic I literally said 'AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW SHIT SON' out loud.

Then chastised myself via inner monologue over cultural appropriation, but you know.

I personally find it upsetting when the main WCDT is mainly gossipy speculation about romantic/sexual relationships.

The moderators are in discussion about this, but do bear in mind that the 'no shipping' rule was mainly due to how outlandish the shipping was; the strip is itself laying out a lot of potential relationships so it's become more complicated, but we're talking about it in the mod forum.

For the Bubbles / Faye thing... I can understand the shipping.
I just think it's gotten to a stage where people are putting things on characters (Faye) which I'm just NOT seeing. (I see no mutual romantic feelings on Faye's part.. others seem to...)

but whenever the shipping gets a bit much in here, I always think.. "At least it's not the DoA comments page."
Character A appears in frame.
Character B appears in frame.
Character A says something nice... or horrible... or comments on the weather.

3/4 of the comments = "THEY GONNA FUUUUUUUUUUU......"

Gets REALLY wearing...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Vern LaVey on 01 May 2018, 09:09
If I'm not personally the object of their attention, it's still just petty gossip, and it diminishes my perception of people when they behave like petty gossips.  I just wind up waiting for it to be over, and hoping people will stop behaving that way. 

So anyway....  To make it short, I'm uncomfortable with the shipping.  I dislike it, usually avoid threads where it's the main event, and sincerely miss the eager enforcement of the no-shipping rule this board used to have.  I personally find it upsetting when the main WCDT is mainly gossipy speculation about romantic/sexual relationships.

I get the adversity towards random character shipping, but the current Faye/Bubbles plot is completely fueled by unresolved sexual tension.  It's living off of the hopes of the fan base, and Jeph is pretty obviously relishing the slow burn... the teasing. 

I can understand it making you uncomfortable, but going beyond that and saying that it "diminishes your perception" of those people who are allowing themselves to be engulfed in the story just seems douchey.  Again, this isn't some random fandom shipping, but the story that Jeph is telling. 

In other words... you're getting mad at the passengers on the Jeph-Bus for the direction they're going when they're just along for the ride.  It seems to me that at this point your problem is more with the driver.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: JimC on 01 May 2018, 09:26
I dunno, for all that our writer seems to be happily playing games with the shippers, I still think unrestricted submarine warfare is the right approach.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: NemesisDancer on 01 May 2018, 09:55
That being said, I think their story arc should get resolved (or at least taken to the next a new stage of development) sooner rather than later.

I'm getting a bit bored of the drawn-out Faye/Bubbles ship tease, to be honest (though that's possibly because I'm not a particularly strong shipper of them), so I hope it gets resolved soon too. Was looking forward to this week's comics as I thought we were going to see more of what Hannelore had been up to, but I suppose there are still a few more days to go ^_^
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Morituri on 01 May 2018, 11:09
I guess my personal issues with people gossiping about / pushing for / each other's relationships get grounded here, and probably make me more sensitive to it than I have any good reasons to be.  "Diminishes my perception of" is literal truth, though it reveals a streak of intolerance in myself wider than I'd like.

I don't think it's a problem with where the story's going though; mostly I see it as a problem with people having picked something in the future as a "destination" and now being focused on the unseen destination rather than allowing themselves to enjoy the trip.

Where they see a "ship tease" I see characters in a relationship that now includes some tension and some attraction and some denial and some doublethink and some orientation/identity issues.  It's nuanced, and it's good character development, and the current situation is as much the "destination" as any other part of the trip.  So why doesn't anybody seem to appreciate the current situation as a thing in itself, instead of just as a transitory state toward what they imagine some future situation might be?

Everybody could see, a year ago or so, that Corpse Witch was in need of a swift buttkick out of Faye & Bubbles' life.  And just such a buttkick did eventually arrive.  But I don't recall any serious obsessing about what form and shape that buttkick would take or how it was going to be delivered or by whom or even when.  It wasn't a "tease", it was story development.  And people were interested in all the bits of story along the way.  People speculated about CW's past, about the skatepark's ownership, about what had been done to Bubbles, about whether CW was trying to get leverage over Faye, about past interactions between CW and the police, about corruption and complicity, etc etc etc, and it was all about the story as it was happening.  We didn't have everybody focused on the single future buttkicking event as the only possible point of the whole story.

Now they are focused on one thing.  They are focused on the development or non-development of romantic/sexual love between these characters.  And everything else is getting lost, or passing them by, without any thought or discussion or, it seems to me, even perception.  They are invested in particular outcomes, like romance or rejection etc, instead of being able to accept that good stories can be built around whatever outcome comes about.  That's even true if the "outcome" is  long-term continuation of the tension, since after all the author may be telling a DIFFERENT story using the tension for character depth to inform how these characters see someone ELSE's situation.

To me the sexual/romantic aspect of this character relationship is one topic.  It's about five percent of what there is to discuss.  It's in the future and a bunch of other things are in the present.  When fifty percent of the discussion is used to talk about five percent of the subject matter, I get impatient and wonder why people are being so willfully blind to everything else.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: awgiedawgie on 01 May 2018, 11:14
Very well spoken.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: MrNumbers on 01 May 2018, 11:28
I disagree with the idea of censoring discussions about the romantic plots of a romance-focused slice-of-life comic, particularly in the weekly threads discussing that comic. This is the place I'd like to read those conversations.

I think you're going to see an overrepresentation of people speaking out against it not because it's much harder for someone to speak up for their right to discuss the topic when others are talking about it making them uncomfortable, even though it's also uncomfortable being told it's wrong to talk about the thing you want to talk about. Policing those topics results in these threads turning away a lot of people who aren't creepy, but are being told discussing what the comic is actually about makes them creepy. That's unpleasant.

Policing on behalf of inclusivity is still exclusionary. That's not inherently bad; There are people who, for the good of the community, you wish to exclude. But I wish to say that the pressure against discussing the comic in 'the right' way has personally resulted in me participating far less than I'd otherwise like to.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: awgiedawgie on 01 May 2018, 11:45
I think the point trying to be made — at least in this particular case, for my part — is that people are discussing what they want the comic to be about, even when there is still some ambiguity that that is what the comic is actually about. And they are discussing that one small part of the greater picture to the exclusion of everything else. The future is inherently mutable, but they are discussing one possible eventuality as if it were the only possible outcome. As has been mentioned by others, it gets old fast.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: MrNumbers on 01 May 2018, 11:56
Right, but the characters themselves, in comic, obviously desire that outcome for themselves. It's not just people projecting what they want, they're discussing what is in media res.

Or, because a picture is worth a thousand words;

(https://i.imgur.com/4WG2nCJ.png)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 01 May 2018, 12:14
Quote from: Morituri
So why doesn't anybody seem to appreciate the current situation as a thing in itself, instead of just as a transitory state toward what they imagine some future situation might be?

I have. Early in the speculation about Bubbles and Faye becoming lovers I said they were something rarer and more valuable, namely close friends.

The current situation strikes me as unsustainable though.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: traroth on 01 May 2018, 12:41
Right, but the characters themselves, in comic, obviously desire that outcome for themselves. It's not just people projecting what they want, they're discussing what is in media res.

Or, because a picture is worth a thousand words;

(https://i.imgur.com/4WG2nCJ.png)

Or even better:

(https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2018/18/2/1525203657-qc.jpg)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Morituri on 01 May 2018, 13:58
About it being what the characters want for themselves....  if it were, it would just be what they have.  They'd treat each other that way because it would be what they want for themselves.

And jumping there, over all the reasons why it *isn't* what they are doing right now, is skipping over things that are important to both.  Like, say, Bubbles' defensive reserve and self-esteem problems and Faye's heterosexuality. 

I think a discussion of Bubbles' self-esteem and feeling like she's *worthy* of having a romantic relationship would be on point here.  As might her fear of loss of control.  And whether Faye has ever shown the least inclination toward romance or sexual feelings toward anyone at all except human males, whether heterosexuality is an important part of her identity, what her lesbian sister's meddling meant or accomplished, how she's bound to have considered that aspect of herself when her sister came out, etc...  But discussion is blind to them, or else treating all those things merely as "ship tease" that they're impatiently waiting for the author to sweep out of the way. 

As far as I'm concerned, Jeph can spend months on any of those issues or all of them, or decide that their relationship develops as a business relationship and friendship but not a romance, because of them.  They aren't "ship tease" any more than the reasons Faye didn't eventually get together with Marten.  They're the story.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 01 May 2018, 14:05
The odd thing is that I honestly can't see any of the problems about which Morituri is complaining. Instead, I'm seeing thoughtful discussion of the issues that they says that  they want discussed. Maybe I'm just better at parsing out posts that I don't want to see or something.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Shjade on 01 May 2018, 14:35
I voted for Marten/Claire, mostly because I still regard Marten as part of the "main cast" (I even used to think of him as the main character, but that belief is long gone), and he hasn't got much spotlight for quite some time now. I realize that his and Claire's story might not be very high on everyone's priority list right now, but still…

There's only two things Jeph can really do with the couple: split them up or marry them off. They are already sexual and live together, the next step forward is marriage. Conversely, the next step back is breaking up over something one of them may do but given the personalities, neither will break it off.

So they are stagnant, especially Marten. At least Claire has a chance to develop in other ways but Jeph isn't going down that road yet....perhaps a backstory arc?

Uh. No. Incredibly no.

There are plenty of things Jeph can do with "the couple" that involve them as a couple. They could just go do something together! They could have a disagreement over something that gives us more development/insight into who they are as individuals. One could have a personal issue come up that the other supports/helps them through. Etc.

Being a couple does not limit the involved characters to a binary state of will they/won't they stay together as their only potential future development. You are not "stagnant" once you've become part of a stable relationship; those bonds grow and change over time. And that's even without considering the possibility of other complex relationship shifts (for instance, becoming a more open/poly thing rather than a monogamous pairing - I don't find it likely, but it's an example).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: shanejayell on 01 May 2018, 16:36
That was cute. :D
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: snufflebottoms on 01 May 2018, 17:57
It's actually pretty rare for me to get invested in a work that has no romantic tension. I need a story that has more than that but I also need the romantic elements. I've always found unresolved people pining for each other to be much more enjoyable to read/watch then established couples progress so as much as others are getting bored with skirting around and teasing the tension, I really like it. And it also puts me almost always in a shipping camp rather than discussing established cannon even if the ship will soon be cannon. I enjoy reading THIS phase of a relationship and I enjoy it even if it turns out that the two don't get together, even if it was one sided, even if in the end they turn out to have a particular kind of friendship - not quite platonic but not quite more than platonic. It's the mystery and not knowing and often tragic unrequited or star-crossed elements that make it great. Basically the opposite of real life where you want happy companionship and clear communication.

And at first the Faye/Bubbles dynamic really did nothing for me so good writing from Jeph because he got me invested in something I originally had little interest in.

I liked the Marten/Claire tension but beyond the wedding and one drunken head scratching, it was resolved with little excitement. Their relationship can have more dynamics to it that I'll enjoy but it'll never be the fresh new-love that is so fun to read which sucks because I liked them A LOT.

So think less of me if you want but that's just silly and judgmental. I'm still going to talk about the parts of the strip I love and most of them involve does person x feel all tingly inside about person y? DID YOU SEE THAT BLUSH?! OMG OMG OMG  :claireface: :claireface:
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 01 May 2018, 19:14
Quote from: Morituri
I think a discussion of Bubbles' self-esteem and feeling like she's *worthy* of having a romantic relationship would be on point here.  As might her fear of loss of control.  And whether Faye has ever shown the least inclination toward romance or sexual feelings toward anyone at all except human males, whether heterosexuality is an important part of her identity, what her lesbian sister's meddling meant or accomplished, how she's bound to have considered that aspect of herself when her sister came out, etc...

(regular user)I would love to participate in a discussion of any or all of those, plus one about Faye's mother's reaction.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 01 May 2018, 19:16
Faye finally realizes what she knew all along.

EDIT TO ADD:
Speculation is over and done with.

Faye has never reacted _quite_ like that to any of her previous relationship startups. It's consistent with the idea that she's not consciously open to romance with a female synthetic, which is why she buried the idea as it tried to form.

It won't happen because it's not a spectacular story, but for their sake I would prefer they hold a "So what are we?" talk.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: comicalArchitect on 01 May 2018, 19:41
So, if Faye is beginning to realize she has feelings for Bubbles, where does she go now? Given Faye’s character and the way this comic usually works, I think she’s likely gonna go and talk to Marten or Dora. Dora seems more likely to me, since she has experience being bisexual (that’s a weird phrase), but I can also see Faye wanting to talk to Marten since he’s probably going to be calmer about it and get less invested in a potential relationship.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: awgiedawgie on 01 May 2018, 20:11
It would be interesting to see Dora’s opinion, but I have no doubt she will go to Marten. She has repeatedly said that he’s her best friend, and she has asked his advice on other things before.


I still see one of two possible questions running through her mind. She has now realized either “Bubbles likes me and I don’t know what to do” or “I like Bubbles and I don’t know what to do”. Either way, she clearly doesn’t know what she should do next, or she wouldn’t have run away. She knows Marten will be up front with her, whereas any of her other friends have more potential for smart-assery, and she really doesn’t need that right now.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: MrNumbers on 01 May 2018, 20:23
This kills the ambiguity.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: de_la_Nae on 01 May 2018, 20:40
its_happening.gif
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: de_la_Nae on 01 May 2018, 20:53
Times like this, I remember the years Jeph... well, 'avoided' isn't really the right word I think..... let's say, Jeph did not commit to queer relationships.  I personally added 'bury your gays' or 'hide your lesbians' or somesuch to the TVTropes page. Which, there are valid reasons not to, but I certainly was getting very tired with stories not specifically dedicated to queerness dancing around it for so many years. It was nice to see him finally go from several straight couples to some straight couples with some queer couples thrown in. To take a Goddamned stand.

Anyway, I've been looking forward to him finally ripping the bandage off on human-AI romance. He's been getting a long run-up on it, starting to feel like he was just gonna spend years dancing around it again. But looks like he might be grabbing for that bandage, finally.

As someone who, it seems, will always be sorted into society's 'Them', it is nice to see the gap bridged.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: de_la_Nae on 01 May 2018, 20:54
all that said I probably don't have much to say that I haven't said in past Happenings.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: zisraelsen on 01 May 2018, 21:02
My first instinct is to be like "I can't believe it's taken Faye this long to put the pieces together!" but I'm pretty sure I've missed more obvious love-related things because love is confusing.

Also, I hope "Leg Cramp" becomes slang for "Perspective-Altering Realization."
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Gyrre on 01 May 2018, 21:12
So, if Faye is beginning to realize she has feelings for Bubbles, where does she go now? Given Faye’s character and the way this comic usually works, I think she’s likely gonna go and talk to Marten or Dora. Dora seems more likely to me, since she has experience being bisexual (that’s a weird phrase), but I can also see Faye wanting to talk to Marten since he’s probably going to be calmer about it and get less invested in a potential relationship.
It is indeed something of a weird phrase. But, deferring to someone with experience could help.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 01 May 2018, 21:15
This kills the ambiguity.

This ambiguity is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-AMBIGUITY!!

Faye has a good heart. Along with her shock at herself she should soon realize that she's been inadvertently hurting Bubbles. The awkwardness will be intense.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Gyrre on 01 May 2018, 21:20
Times like this, I remember the years Jeph... well, 'avoided' isn't really the right word I think..... let's say, Jeph did not commit to queer relationships.  I personally added 'bury your gays' or 'hide your lesbians' or somesuch to the TVTropes page. Which, there are valid reasons not to, but I certainly was getting very tired with stories not specifically dedicated to queerness dancing around it for so many years. It was nice to see him finally go from several straight couples to some straight couples with some queer couples thrown in. To take a Goddamned stand.

Anyway, I've been looking forward to him finally ripping the bandage off on human-AI romance. He's been getting a long run-up on it, starting to feel like he was just gonna spend years dancing around it again. But looks like he might be grabbing for that bandage, finally.

As someone who, it seems, will always be sorted into society's 'Them', it is nice to see the gap bridged.

It was my understanding that trans folks still counted as queer. Has that changed?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Bad Superman on 01 May 2018, 21:22
Oh no… See that concerned look on Bubbles face in the last panel?
'Did I do something inappropriate?' ...  'Did I spook Faye?' ... 'Did I just turn her away from me?'

And Faye's somewhat weird reaction will only add to the paranoia… poor Bubbles.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: JimC on 01 May 2018, 21:26
I suppose,  beyond a general distaste for shipping, it seems to me if our author is going to turn his AIs into sexual beings then it loses the whole thing of exploring "There exist minds that think as well as you do, but differently." (Niven)  and they become exactly like all the other characters who copulate but don't reproduce, so what's the point in having them?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Onionvolcano on 01 May 2018, 21:30
I suspect most of the work on today's strip went into the Tetris animation, but panel 2 is really a beautiful pose and very well drawn.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: zisraelsen on 01 May 2018, 21:34
I'd argue there are more differences between the AI and the humans than just the fuckin'. The nuances in the AI and human experiences have been discussed in-comic (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3587). If anything, the interaction of the human and AI minds in a relationship might be an interesting contrast of their individual needs.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Shjade on 01 May 2018, 21:43
It won't happen because it's not a spectacular story, but for their sake I would prefer they hold a "So what are we?" talk.

It wouldn't be the first time, I wouldn't be surprised if we got one. Potentially even right away if Bubbles doesn't take "leg cramp" as a valid response, but probably not until later.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Morituri on 01 May 2018, 21:47
So now Faye has figured out what's going on and what the issues are.

Still open to question is how she feels about it and what she wants to do.  If anything.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: brasca on 01 May 2018, 22:00
If Hannelore wasn't too hoarse from screaming over latrine duty she'd be squeeing something fierce right now. 
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: de_la_Nae on 01 May 2018, 22:12



It was my understanding that trans folks still counted as queer. Has that changed?

Generally they do. I don't think I understand the context of the question, though?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: de_la_Nae on 01 May 2018, 22:16
I suppose,  beyond a general distaste for shipping, it seems to me if our author is going to turn his AIs into sexual beings then it loses the whole thing of exploring "There exist minds that think as well as you do, but differently." (Niven)  and they become exactly like all the other characters who copulate but don't reproduce, so what's the point in having them?


...you what, mate?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 01 May 2018, 22:16
If Hannelore wasn't too hoarse from screaming over latrine duty she'd be squeeing something fierce right now.

Just wait until Claire finds out.

Even a mad scientist's daughter might be hard pressed to say "Your babies would be so cute!" to a human/synthetic partnership.

Poor Bubbles, indeed. She's afraid now that she's hurt Faye, a person she would lay down her life to protect.

EDIT TO ADD:
It goes back before Niven. Astounding editor John Campbell demanded that authors write about beings who think as well as a man, but not like a man.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: de_la_Nae on 01 May 2018, 22:28
Okay so I've got a lot of *thoughts* in response to what you wrote, Jim, but how about I just keep them short for the moment and say that the AI are raman, possibly even främling given the nature of their birth, existence, and society. They're not varelse. I find where you seem to be drawing the lines, uh, confusing is the simplest word.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 01 May 2018, 23:05
I confess I had to look up the context for that list, and all the top search results for "raman" were about infrared spectroscopy.

http://enderverse.wikia.com/wiki/Hierarchy_of_Foreignness

Some of the trillion-input AIs managing global infrastructure may be too foreign for mutual understanding.

So is Faye going to see this as interracial or as interspecies?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: dsvella on 01 May 2018, 23:13
Just want to quickly say the animation in todays comic got a big laugh out of me!

More please.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Nycticoraci on 01 May 2018, 23:20
After todays comic, try stopping the shippers now. Muahahah.

Jeph is really teasing us
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Gyrre on 01 May 2018, 23:22
After todays comic, try stopping the shippers now. Muahahah.

Jeph is really teasing us
Faye dies of a sudden heartattack from her sister and Claire squeeing too loud behind her.

EDIT: forgot to include Claire.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 01 May 2018, 23:24
I do love the sequence of panels 3 and 4 in today's strip because it puts thousands of words into two pictures (including a very simple animated GIF). Basically, Faye starts to subconsciously reciprocate to Bubbles' massage and does so on what, for a human woman, would be a highly intimate area. At that moment, all the pieces slot into place and, yes, she suddenly realises that, as well as viewing Bubbles as one of her closest friends, she also is sexually attracted to her.

Her response in panel 5 is entirely understandable and I wouldn't be surprised if, looking back, Bubbles realises that there was a little fear in Faye's body language. I doubt Bubbles will realise this and I don't know if anyone will ever tell her but that's understandable. When you think how Faye was hurt by Sven and how tripping over one of the last hurdles with Angus nearly literally killed her, you can't blame her from being afraid of the intensity of what is happening between her and Bubbles.

So, I'm expecting that Faye is going to run through town to the library to talk to Marten. Because, whilst Dora is one of her best female friends, she's a bit too glib and relaxed about these things. Faye needs to talk to someone about what she should do next, not be advised to close the shop for the day and spend the time exploring things with Bubbles.

FWIW, coming up is a bit of self-conscious talk, first with Marten, then an equally self-conscious talk with Bubbles.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Gyrre on 01 May 2018, 23:29



It was my understanding that trans folks still counted as queer. Has that changed?

Generally they do. I don't think I understand the context of the question, though?

You had said that Jeph was actively trying to hide the queer relationships.  Marten and Claire often appear together in the strips they're in.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: TheCollector on 01 May 2018, 23:41
Y'know, something those of you still wondering whether or not Faye actually realizes she feels something for Bubbles or just that Bubbles feels something for her seem to not be taking into account here. The pink background is for Faye, not Bubbles. Plus it's Faye's hand that's suddenly making it's way up Bubbles thigh. Me thinks that doesn't lead to, huh, they like me. lol
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: theMarc on 01 May 2018, 23:55
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Near Lurker on 02 May 2018, 00:11
Now Faye goes to confide her shocking revelation in one of the everyone who figured it out as soon as they met Bubbles.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: de_la_Nae on 02 May 2018, 00:17
You had said that Jeph was actively trying to hide the queer relationships.  Marten and Claire often appear together in the strips they're in.

I see. If you re-read what I wrote, my friend, you will see that I also said that was years ago. A decade-ish ago (though I wasn't that specific), when Dora was theoretically bisexual and that was just about it.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: de_la_Nae on 02 May 2018, 00:19
I also, in the post, mention how he stopped doing that. Since we have Marten's father and his husband, Tai and Dora, Marten and Claire, with any luck Clinton and Elliot will smooch, probably some others I'm forgetting.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: de_la_Nae on 02 May 2018, 00:22
and yes i know I'm triple-posting but also I didn't say Jeph was *actively* doing it, even back then. He might have been! But that's not in my post. Maybe I wasn't clear, I'm not always. So let me say at least that what I intended to say was that Jeph was doing it, whether he meant to or not.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Near Lurker on 02 May 2018, 00:29
By "theoretically," do you mean this was before she'd explicitly said she liked girls (just perving on Faye and Amanda), or just before she'd actually been seen with another woman?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: de_la_Nae on 02 May 2018, 00:30
Could go either way. It was so many years ago, I wasn't even out yet.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Cornelius on 02 May 2018, 00:50
Today's comic is pretty much exactly how my longest lasting relationship started off. Even if, ultimately, it was pretty disastrous.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Mojo on 02 May 2018, 00:52
I'm a bit perplexed by the gif...  Is that supposed to spell something?  If so, I can't make it out.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Near Lurker on 02 May 2018, 00:56
I'll give you a hint.

Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: de_la_Nae on 02 May 2018, 01:10
Gif is like Tetris. The last, long piece slowly slots in, completing the tetrad, i.e. the light bulb going off, i.e. "oh *THAT'S* what's going on".

then it forms a heart.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: traroth on 02 May 2018, 01:25
As far as I'm concerned, Jeph can spend months on any of those issues or all of them, or decide that their relationship develops as a business relationship and friendship but not a romance, because of them.  They aren't "ship tease" any more than the reasons Faye didn't eventually get together with Marten.  They're the story.

That's the whole point. In every story, something needs to happen at some point. You can't beat the bush forever.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: gopher on 02 May 2018, 01:30
Oh dear. Another happy, healthy relationship on the way, and another source of drama and humour on the way out.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 02 May 2018, 01:32
As far as I'm concerned, Jeph can spend months on any of those issues or all of them, or decide that their relationship develops as a business relationship and friendship but not a romance, because of them.  They aren't "ship tease" any more than the reasons Faye didn't eventually get together with Marten.  They're the story.

That's the whole point. In every story, something needs to happen at some point. You can't beat the bush forever.

This is one of the reasons why, now things are happening, I'm expecting them to happen fairly quickly. Faye's realisation is the only significant roadblock between the resolution of this part of the arc. The obvious next arc will be 'just how do a human and a synthetic date'? Given the precedent of Claire, I'm not expecting too much attention to be given to physical intimacy beyond that it is happening somehow.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Cornelius on 02 May 2018, 01:37
Oh dear. Another happy, healthy relationship on the way, and another source of drama and humour on the way out.

I'm not too sure it will be happy and healthy; quite aside from the fact that it is the first human-synthetic relationship we see - or even hear about; there's the fact that they both come with quite some emotional baggage. It'll be nice to see if, and how they cope with those in the relationship. They seem both to have made progress - but we've only seen them in the fairly limited surroundings of their own company.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: de_la_Nae on 02 May 2018, 01:56
I have more to say because apparently I'm *all about* this thread tonight.

It may not work.

That's okay.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Janet_Yellens_yellin on 02 May 2018, 02:10
Do you interpret this as Faye putting two and two together and realizing that Bubbles has feelings for her or she is realizing she has feelings for Bubbles?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Pennepasta on 02 May 2018, 02:14
Do you interpret this as Faye putting two and two together and realizing that Bubbles has feelings for her or she is realizing she has feelings for Bubbles?

Would be hard to realize from a back massage and from her hand running up bubbles' leg that bubbles has romantic feelings. Pretty sure she's realized hers.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 02 May 2018, 02:18
Oh well...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: traroth on 02 May 2018, 02:29
Do you interpret this as Faye putting two and two together and realizing that Bubbles has feelings for her or she is realizing she has feelings for Bubbles?

That's really a good question. Hopefully both.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 02 May 2018, 02:36
Do you interpret this as Faye putting two and two together and realizing that Bubbles has feelings for her or she is realizing she has feelings for Bubbles?

Definitely the latter; note particularly panel 3 when Faye starts to reciprocate with intimate touching. She's suddenly realised that she does desire Bubbles on a physical level as well as having a deep friendship with her.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: pwhodges on 02 May 2018, 03:24
It was my understanding that trans folks still counted as queer. Has that changed?

Being transgender and being gay are orthogonal aspects of sexuality; as members of the LGBT grouping, they simply share the characteristic of not being both cis and hetero.

You had said that Jeph was actively trying to hide the queer relationships.  Marten and Claire often appear together in the strips they're in.

Marten x Claire is not a queer relationship.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: snufflebottoms on 02 May 2018, 04:45
This kills the ambiguity.

There's still a lot of room for whether they realize each others' feelings or take action. There could still be more to the story.

RE: Jeph "hiding" his "gays" - I don't think he ever did that. I think he was just finding his voice and making decisions about the characters.  Generally speaking LGBT members are a minority of people in sheer numbers but Truth in Television - members of communities (not just LGBT) tend to seek and find each other so I don't think that there is a prescribed min or max and I think the comic has done just fine.

As an aside though, real life is messy and complicated. I don't think Faye is a lesbian per say and that's why attraction to another woman will take a long time to process. Perhaps she is "only incidentally homosexual"
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Thrillho on 02 May 2018, 04:51
Do you interpret this as Faye putting two and two together and realizing that Bubbles has feelings for her or she is realizing she has feelings for Bubbles?

Would be hard to realize from a back massage and from her hand running up bubbles' leg that bubbles has romantic feelings. Pretty sure she's realized hers.

Cannot disagree strongly enough with you there.

Not just because I have personal experience of it happening to me.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Tai Fanboi on 02 May 2018, 04:57
Getting a massage by Bubs, I'm in troubs
because something now, just did click
Can this be true?  Who else knew
That I'd fall for a sexy AI chick
Gotta go and get out, make an excuse
Go and think, got to make some of these pieces fit.

Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: kyraeus on 02 May 2018, 05:49
Oh dear. Another happy, healthy relationship on the way, and another source of drama and humour on the way out.

Not hardly. Given Faye's relationship history throughout the comic and her inability to handle a lot of her own emotional baggage, I won't be shocked if she pushes away now that she's had the 'aha!' moment.  Essentially the only reason she was able to be so comfortable around Bubbles was that veneer of thinking of her as a friend rather than someone she's interested in... She's pretty consistently had issues dealing with anyone she saw as a lover, her brain kicks into overdrive and a lot of her other problems seem to get in the way.  Bad choices, raging for no reason, and a lot of pain resulted.

Honestly, most of the other characters who have been on the receiving end of this in the past have been INCREDIBLY understanding about those.  Compared to RL, where people I've known who had similar issues basically ended up shunned within peer groups for the sheer damage they did.

And to be honest, I'm actually hoping she DOES stop drama'ing all over..  Yes, Faye's an interesting character in some facets, but at least to me, her 'Oh, I have issues with people I'm with so I'm a complete bitch to them' got kinda old somewhere between the problems with her and Marten and then Dora.  Mostly that's just my own personal issues RL with similar personalities though.  She kinda resembles waaaay too many people I know that I want to throttle.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: SPAZwazza on 02 May 2018, 07:07
Aaand the other shoe is down.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: shanejayell on 02 May 2018, 07:10
Faye has FINALLY hit a clue. :D
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: traroth on 02 May 2018, 07:39
...and in one second, Faye's world was turned upside down!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Vern LaVey on 02 May 2018, 07:48
Random question, but how do these animated strips work in the print collections?  Is each frame of the .gif shown as a panel?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: sitnspin on 02 May 2018, 07:53
As an aside though, real life is messy and complicated. I don't think Faye is a lesbian per say and that's why attraction to another woman will take a long time to process. Perhaps she is "only incidentally homosexual"

You do know that bisexuality is a thing, right?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: chaospersonified on 02 May 2018, 08:04
Pintsize called it...
sorta

http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2262
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: jwhouk on 02 May 2018, 08:35
Pintsize called it...
sorta

http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2263

That comic doesn't feature Pintsize?...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: chaospersonified on 02 May 2018, 08:57
Pintsize called it...
sorta

http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2263

That comic doesn't feature Pintsize?...

The one before it does, and I’ve edited the original comment. I’m on mobile, and it moved to the next strip when I tried to copy the link.  :-P
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 02 May 2018, 11:06
The blocky thing at the end would be a red heart if it were smooth.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: ImVeryAngryItsNotButter on 02 May 2018, 11:31
...and in one second, Faye's world was turned upside down!

And her mom got scared, and said "You're movin' with your aunt and uncle in Bel-Air!"
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Morituri on 02 May 2018, 11:33
Faye has FINALLY hit a clue. :D

Yes, and if she's responding true to form (her form up to now anyway) this is the moment where she panics and runs - AGAIN - from an emotionally committed romantic relationship, fucking up her and Bubbles' business as well as personal life.

Growing closer was easy when she thought of Bubbles as a friend; adding the idea of romantic commitment has scared her away from previous relationships every time so far.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Jakk Frost on 02 May 2018, 11:37
... I'll be in my bunk.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: snufflebottoms on 02 May 2018, 11:39

You do know that bisexuality is a thing, right?

Yeah, and she could very well be bisexual and in her mid 20s and experiencing the first of many attractions to women but the fact that she seems to have no other interest in women up until now and that it took this long for her to think of all the flirting etc. something more makes me think this case is kind of one of a kind for her.

Didn't mean it to be a slam against bisexual people - sorry if it came off that way. 
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 02 May 2018, 12:17
Aaand the other shoe is down.

Welcome, new person!

With many more shoes to follow.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 02 May 2018, 12:19
As an aside though, real life is messy and complicated. I don't think Faye is a lesbian per say and that's why attraction to another woman will take a long time to process. Perhaps she is "only incidentally homosexual"

You do know that bisexuality is a thing, right?

Being bi is something Faye might "take a long time to process".
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 02 May 2018, 12:23
Faye has FINALLY hit a clue. :D

Yes, and if she's responding true to form (her form up to now anyway) this is the moment where she panics and runs - AGAIN - from an emotionally committed romantic relationship, fucking up her and Bubbles' business as well as personal life.

Growing closer was easy when she thought of Bubbles as a friend; adding the idea of romantic commitment has scared her away from previous relationships every time so far.

All true.

The comic is also about personal and emotional growth. I hope, with some amount of realism, for Faye to (eventually!) make this work.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Milayna on 02 May 2018, 12:32
I guess my personal issues with people gossiping about / pushing for / each other's relationships get grounded here, and probably make me more sensitive to it than I have any good reasons to be.  "Diminishes my perception of" is literal truth, though it reveals a streak of intolerance in myself wider than I'd like.

I don't think it's a problem with where the story's going though; mostly I see it as a problem with people having picked something in the future as a "destination" and now being focused on the unseen destination rather than allowing themselves to enjoy the trip.

Where they see a "ship tease" I see characters in a relationship that now includes some tension and some attraction and some denial and some doublethink and some orientation/identity issues.  It's nuanced, and it's good character development, and the current situation is as much the "destination" as any other part of the trip.  So why doesn't anybody seem to appreciate the current situation as a thing in itself, instead of just as a transitory state toward what they imagine some future situation might be?

Everybody could see, a year ago or so, that Corpse Witch was in need of a swift buttkick out of Faye & Bubbles' life.  And just such a buttkick did eventually arrive.  But I don't recall any serious obsessing about what form and shape that buttkick would take or how it was going to be delivered or by whom or even when.  It wasn't a "tease", it was story development.  And people were interested in all the bits of story along the way.  People speculated about CW's past, about the skatepark's ownership, about what had been done to Bubbles, about whether CW was trying to get leverage over Faye, about past interactions between CW and the police, about corruption and complicity, etc etc etc, and it was all about the story as it was happening.  We didn't have everybody focused on the single future buttkicking event as the only possible point of the whole story.

Now they are focused on one thing.  They are focused on the development or non-development of romantic/sexual love between these characters.  And everything else is getting lost, or passing them by, without any thought or discussion or, it seems to me, even perception.  They are invested in particular outcomes, like romance or rejection etc, instead of being able to accept that good stories can be built around whatever outcome comes about.  That's even true if the "outcome" is  long-term continuation of the tension, since after all the author may be telling a DIFFERENT story using the tension for character depth to inform how these characters see someone ELSE's situation.

To me the sexual/romantic aspect of this character relationship is one topic.  It's about five percent of what there is to discuss.  It's in the future and a bunch of other things are in the present.  When fifty percent of the discussion is used to talk about five percent of the subject matter, I get impatient and wonder why people are being so willfully blind to everything else.
Particlarly in your second to last paragraph, this is something I've noticed...very broadly, not just here, not just in my friend group or Tumblr or wherever, but...everywhere. Sex and relationships get particular attention. Particular emphasis. from just about everyone. It's...not something that I entirely understand, but there are many things about neurotypical behavior that I don't understand beyond acknowledging them as fact. I might try to discuss it, as a exercise in seeing how closely I'm able to interpret what I'm seeing and further my development of a more "normal" personality, though I'm not usually terribly interested in shipping, myself.

At any rate, I guess my point is, yeah, that happens for ships instead of other kinds of plot points - like Corpse Witch's manipulations - because that's, uh, how people are, I guess, and neither you nor I are going to change how 7 billion people operate.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Ghanima Atreides on 02 May 2018, 14:35

You do know that bisexuality is a thing, right?

Yeah, and she could very well be bisexual and in her mid 20s and experiencing the first of many attractions to women but the fact that she seems to have no other interest in women up until now and that it took this long for her to think of all the flirting etc. something more makes me think this case is kind of one of a kind for her.

Didn't mean it to be a slam against bisexual people - sorry if it came off that way.

Hi there. :) Bisexual woman here who acknowledged her attraction to women only in her late 20s; we do exist. So it's possible for Faye to have had an unconscious/unacknowledged attraction towards women that never really hit home until a catalyst made it do so.

(I always seem to pop up in this sort of threads.  :laugh: )
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: NemesisDancer on 02 May 2018, 14:43
As an aside though, real life is messy and complicated. I don't think Faye is a lesbian per say and that's why attraction to another woman will take a long time to process. Perhaps she is "only incidentally homosexual"

You do know that bisexuality is a thing, right?

I got the impression that the term "only incidentally homosexual" was in reference to the Kinsey Scale (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale) and that Snufflebottoms meant to imply that Faye is a 1 on the scale (defined as "Predominantly heterosexual, only incidentally homosexual") - i.e. primarly attracted to men but very occasionally women as well. I actually know of a lot of people whom this applies to, myself included; it can make it difficult to know whether to self-identify as straight or bisexual, though some use the term "heteroflexible", or it can also refer to people who are heteroromantic-bisexual or vice versa. The same applies at the other end of the scale at point 5 (primarily attracted to the same gender, but very occasionally the opposite gender).

In Faye's case it remains to be seen what she'll make of her epiphany, but I hope that at least clarified the wording a bit ^_^
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Penquin47 on 02 May 2018, 15:06
So, Faye is probably running off to talk to Marten... what does Bubbles do?  Stay behind to mind the shop?  Go to CoD for some tea and hope that things make more sense after she's had some relaxing unicorn fantasies?  Talk to Momo? (I'm trying to think of anyone else she might talk to, and coming up with a blank.  Hanners maybe, if she were still around, but...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: de_la_Nae on 02 May 2018, 15:25
She'll probably keep working.

Also I should point out that we have no indication that Bubbles knows where most of the cast lives, or even particularly likes Momo.
I may be projecting a bit at that last bit, though. I don't *dislike* her, but while she absolutely means well she's such a combination of uptight and 'not into' certain topics (such as human-AI romance and/or sex) that she's nearly useless. I'm not Bubbles, but I at least fear that I'd be hard-pressed to break through Momo's attempts to stammer out what she thinks is a 'right' answer to get to a real one (or at least one I'd accept as 'real').
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: de_la_Nae on 02 May 2018, 15:27
that probably says more about me and my neurosis than anything else, but considering Bubbles' past frustrations both with projecting that people are 'walking on eggshells' around her, and with people actually doing that, well.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: snufflebottoms on 02 May 2018, 16:24
I got the impression that the term "only incidentally homosexual" was in reference to the Kinsey Scale (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale) and that Snufflebottoms meant to imply that Faye is a 1 on the scale (defined as "Predominantly heterosexual, only incidentally homosexual")

That's exactly what I meant. It's a somewhat educated guess but a guess nonetheless at this point.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Zebediah on 02 May 2018, 18:21
You know, the older I’ve gotten the more I’ve come to believe that these words we use to try to define people aren’t very useful. We invent terms like “heterosexual”, “homosexual”, “bisexual” and try to assign people to distinct categories based on those words. But those categories don’t really match up to the way the world actually works. People are attracted to whoever they are attracted to, they love whoever they love, categories be damned. And I say this as someone who actually fits pretty neatly into that “heterosexual” box, but I see many people around me who don’t fit any of those boxes. The concepts seem pretty well-defined until you start looking at the boundaries between them, and you see that those boundaries are so fuzzy that they don’t really exist. And the solution is not to invent more and more categories for each possible shade of meaning, because that just emphasizes our differences when we should be focusing on our similarities.

What I think I’m trying to say is that Faye isn’t homosexual or bisexual because of her feelings for Bubbles. If you need a word for it, then the word would be “Bubblesexual”, but that’s not really helpful either. But that’s where Faye is right now. She is attracted to Bubbles, not because she is attracted to women, or robots, but because of who Bubbles is for her.

And so what? Why does Faye have to be shoved into a box labeled “bisexual” as if she’s somehow different from me? When I look at Faye, I see a broken, wounded, but good-hearted person trying to live her life as best she can and find a little happiness along the way. That’s also what Bubbles is. And that’s what I am too.

I have no idea if any of this makes sense. I’m tired and not really thinking coherently. I’ve probably totally mangled whatever point I was trying to make. And that’s okay. Logical coherence is overrated. The key is compassion. Be kind and generous to all people, even imaginary people who only exist in a webcomic, because that’s good practice for the real world. Faye and Bubbles bring a little light into each other’s lives, and that’s really all that matters to me.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: fayelovesbubbles on 02 May 2018, 19:05
Hmm, maybe my username doesn't seem so ridiculous after all.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: MrNumbers on 02 May 2018, 19:17
Hmm, maybe my username doesn't seem so ridiculous after all.

I have never before witnessed such a tactical profile picture change
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: shanejayell on 02 May 2018, 19:33
Hey, Marty! :D

http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3734

And YES I was expecting Jeph to finish out the week either with Melon or Steve having cereal.

Or dinner.

Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: fayelovesbubbles on 02 May 2018, 19:36

I have never before witnessed such a tactical profile picture change

Well, it fits my username pretty well.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: DaiJB on 02 May 2018, 19:38
Aaaanndd straight to Marty!  :-D  Someone called it!

May there always be a place in QC for our resident sympathetic ear and official Shoulder-to-cry-on...  :wink:
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: ImVeryAngryItsNotButter on 02 May 2018, 19:38
It's your kids, Marty! Something's gotta be done about your kids!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: snufflebottoms on 02 May 2018, 19:43
Am I the only one totally digging Marten's outfit? He looks quite spiffy.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: zisraelsen on 02 May 2018, 19:43
I like to imagine that the effect on Faye in panel 4 (or would that be panel 3?) is a representation of her panic causing her to vibrate so quickly that she begins humming loudly like a piece of industrial equipment. Marty offered to move outside partially out of concern for her and partially because it began disrupting nearby students.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: awgiedawgie on 02 May 2018, 20:07
I like to imagine that the effect on Faye in panel 4 (or would that be panel 3?) is a representation of her panic causing her to vibrate so quickly that she begins humming loudly like a piece of industrial equipment. Marty offered to move outside partially out of concern for her and partially because it began disrupting nearby students.
Well, whether her vibrations are audible or not, if she leaned against the shelves while shaking like that, all the books would start rattling. But I think Marten decided to step outside because she started out by yelling, and he's afraid she might do it again.


Am I the only one totally digging Marten's outfit? He looks quite spiffy.
Yeah, Claire inspired him (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2850).


Aaaanndd straight to Marty!  ;D  Someone called it!

May there always be a place in QC for our resident sympathetic ear and official Shoulder-to-cry-on...  ;)
I'm sure I wasn't the only one, but I called it. I'm kind of a real-life Marten (but without the girlfriend, which sucks), so I would have expected someone in Faye's position to come straight to me. It's actually one of the reasons my phone is always on, because my friends know they can call me 24 hours a day if they need someone to talk to.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Netherdan on 02 May 2018, 20:18
That's the first time I noticed that Faye got a little unbuffed since she stopped working on the robot fight club
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: SmilingCat on 02 May 2018, 20:30
Fay panicked and vibrating like that is super cute, also very familiar.

I needed super cute today. So yay!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Mordhaus on 02 May 2018, 21:17
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: OldGoat on 02 May 2018, 21:19
I'm a bit perplexed by the gif...  Is that supposed to spell something?  If so, I can't make it out.
Tetris, all the pieces falling into place.

Aaaanndd straight to Marty!  :-D  Someone called it!
That was BenRG.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: chaospersonified on 02 May 2018, 21:21
So, yeah. We cut to Marty, and FAYE HAS NEWS!!!

This is where I predict we’re about to cut to Steve eating cereal for a week. I predict this because Jeph mentions it in the description area, and because predicting it opens the possibility for being happy I was proved wrong. No matter what happens, I will be happier for having predicted this. Unless Jeph chooses to cut to some rando eating cereal. I wouldn’t put that past him.

So the more vague version is: someone is about to have cereal. If the joke is good, it will kill. Making Jeph a cereal killer. I’m rambling. Someone is about to eat a specific portion of a fully-balanced breakfast, though, either tomorrow or Monday. There’s history here
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 02 May 2018, 21:41
So, what do people think has Faye so disconcerted?

Human/AI romances seem to be uncommon, since this is the first we've seen. Faye may be shocked at herself.

Faye has been terrible toward synthetics. Look how she treated Momo. Is it possible that she's not fully acknowledged them as equals? Was Bubbles a "Some of my best friends are" to Faye?

Or is she simply terrified of having Feelings for someone she knows is as loyal and decent as Marten is? Someone who, unlike Sven or Angus, has LTR written all over her?

She's been a model of acceptance and support to same-sex couples all along. Even someone like that could be startled and even afraid to discover same-sex longings in herself. She's done a great job overcoming her upbringing -- that doesn't necessarily mean a 100% complete job.

Or is it something that hasn't even crossed my mind?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Bad Superman on 02 May 2018, 22:20
Faye's about to phase out of our timeline, Flash-style.

I wonder how Bubbles deals with this stressful/awkward situation...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Tyr on 02 May 2018, 23:08
Faye's about to phase out of our timeline, Flash-style.
Just so long as we don't end up with a Flashpoint scenario... Pintsize must not gain thumbs without also giving up his little pranks.

Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 02 May 2018, 23:21
Well, I've got the feeling that we're on the verge of the next incarnation of The Talk because I really don't think that Faye is currently able to string sufficient coherent thoughts together in order to work out what she thinks, let alone what to do next! In any case, I really think that Marten needs to prioritise this. Based on panel 4, Faye is either about to explode or vibrate at the right frequency to phase-shift between quantum states and end up in a parallel universe!

I do like Marten's new 'business attire' clothes. Does anyone else think that Claire bought him a pack of formal shirts because "libraries are serious business"?

So, what do people think has Faye so disconcerted?

Bottom line is that, like all of us, Faye has pigeon-holed herself as a certain alignment. This is being challenged and, frankly, no-one feels happy or secure when their self-identity is challenged, least of all people with Faye's pretty big issues in that area.

Additionally, after the way Sven inadvertently broke her heart and the way that breaking up with Angus literally nearly killed her, I suspect that Faye is more than a little frightened of having another romantic relationship, particularly one that has managed to develop the current emotional intensity of the one she has with Bubbles whilst still remaining platonic. She's genuinely scared that she'll mess up, hurt Bubbles and, more critically, it really will kill her this time.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Gyrre on 02 May 2018, 23:30
Nice to see that Jeph still has a good knack for optical illusions indicating motion.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: emsilly on 02 May 2018, 23:38
Aaaanndd straight to Marty!  :-D  Someone called it!
That was BenRG.

If knowing what happens via Patreon and announcing it like a prediction counts as calling it, sure.

https://i.imgur.com/heXkMEo.png

https://i.imgur.com/v0iDwST.png
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 02 May 2018, 23:53
Aaaanndd straight to Marty!  :-D  Someone called it!
That was BenRG.

If knowing what happens via Patreon and announcing it like a prediction counts as calling it, sure.

https://i.imgur.com/heXkMEo.png

https://i.imgur.com/v0iDwST.png

Actually, I predicted this outcome on Patreon on Tuesday, before this strip appeared on Patreon. Please be sure to disclose all of the evidence before throwing accusations around. Nice job putting on that screencap from Patreon without the date, BTW.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: emsilly on 03 May 2018, 00:10
Aaaanndd straight to Marty!  :-D  Someone called it!
That was BenRG.

If knowing what happens via Patreon and announcing it like a prediction counts as calling it, sure.

https://i.imgur.com/heXkMEo.png

https://i.imgur.com/v0iDwST.png

Actually, I predicted that outcome on Tuesday, before it appeared on Patreon too. Please be sure to disclose all of the evidence before throwing accusations around. Nice job putting on that screencap from Patreon without the date, BTW.

Prove it. That's the first time you made any comment of that nature in this thread, and it came after the first time you'd posted on Wednesday's strip on Patreon. Also, Patreon comments have relative timestamps, you know that Ben.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 03 May 2018, 00:18
I'm afraid that I don't have an image hosting site. However, if you go to Tuesday's Patreon comment thread, you'll see that I posted (and I quote): "The penny... or in this case the Tetris block... finally drops and the realisation hits. I've been expecting this to happen for a while: This is the point where Faye goes running to Marten to beg him for advice." That was two days ago. As you're clearly a Patreon contributor, you can see that for yourself.

I will not engage with this any further. The site admins have already been told this and have cleared my post from yesterday.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Trebane on 03 May 2018, 00:27


I do like Marten's new 'business attire' clothes. Does anyone else think that Claire bought him a pack of formal shirts because "libraries are serious business"?



I agree. There is something about seeing a normally casual/scruffy guy in formal attire that is super hot.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: emsilly on 03 May 2018, 00:30
I'm afraid that I don't have an image hosting site. However, if you go to Tuesday's Patreon comment thread, you'll see that I posted (and I quote): "The penny... or in this case the Tetris block... finally drops and the realisation hits. I've been expecting this to happen for a while: This is the point where Faye goes running to Marten to beg him for advice." That was two days ago. As you're clearly a Patreon contributor, you can see that for yourself.

I will not engage with this any further. The site admins have already been told this and have cleared my post from yesterday.

The thing about that is even if it's true, it doesn't matter because by the time of your "prediction" here you already knew that what you were saying was the case. Additionally, you have the added detail of the library between then and now, as opposed to Coffee of Doom/bumping into him on the street/another location. You can call it obvious, but it shows your hand. I also doubt this is the only time you've made similar "predictions" since you were on Patreon well before I was.

(Also, literally anyone can use an image hosting site. You don't even need an account to use imgur.)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: awgiedawgie on 03 May 2018, 00:37
I'm afraid that I don't have an image hosting site. However, if you go to Tuesday's Patreon comment thread, you'll see that I posted (and I quote): "The penny... or in this case the Tetris block... finally drops and the realisation hits. I've been expecting this to happen for a while: This is the point where Faye goes running to Marten to beg him for advice." That was two days ago. As you're clearly a Patreon contributor, you can see that for yourself.

I will not engage with this any further. The site admins have already been told this and have cleared my post from yesterday.

The thing about that is even if it's true, it doesn't matter because by the time of your "prediction" here you already knew that what you were saying was the case. Additionally, you have the added detail of the library between then and now, as opposed to Coffee of Doom/bumping into him on the street/another location. You can call it obvious, but it shows your hand. I also doubt this is the only time you've made similar "predictions" since you were on Patreon well before I was.

(Also, literally anyone can use an image hosting site. You don't even need an account to use imgur.)
You're being a dick. I don't know why you're being a dick, but knock it off. This is supposed to be a respectful place. You've only made 4 posts so far, and you're not off to a good start.

Global Moderator Comment NOT helping. The mod staff have plenty of tools to deal with things.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: pwhodges on 03 May 2018, 00:45
[...]

Global Moderator Comment Please stop this, or stick to PMs. The staff accepted Ben's explanation on this occasion, and that's all there is to be said (but note that "clearing" his post did not mean that there was an implicit imprimatur for it).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: emsilly on 03 May 2018, 00:53
I'm afraid that I don't have an image hosting site. However, if you go to Tuesday's Patreon comment thread, you'll see that I posted (and I quote): "The penny... or in this case the Tetris block... finally drops and the realisation hits. I've been expecting this to happen for a while: This is the point where Faye goes running to Marten to beg him for advice." That was two days ago. As you're clearly a Patreon contributor, you can see that for yourself.

I will not engage with this any further. The site admins have already been told this and have cleared my post from yesterday.

The thing about that is even if it's true, it doesn't matter because by the time of your "prediction" here you already knew that what you were saying was the case. Additionally, you have the added detail of the library between then and now, as opposed to Coffee of Doom/bumping into him on the street/another location. You can call it obvious, but it shows your hand. I also doubt this is the only time you've made similar "predictions" since you were on Patreon well before I was.

(Also, literally anyone can use an image hosting site. You don't even need an account to use imgur.)
You're being a dick. I don't know why you're being a dick, but knock it off. This is supposed to be a respectful place. You've only made 4 posts so far, and you're not off to a good start.

Post counts can be deceiving, check my registration date and first recorded post. As for respectful, this place certainly isn't, hence why I withdrew from it in the first place. (Go see how "respectful" people were about trans/non-binary people in the Tilly era, or about Claire for that matter.) Also, as for why, it's because Patreon users making predictions is already sketchy, but Ben clearly gets something out of passing himself off as a wizened sage.

[...]

Please stop this, or stick to PMs.  The staff accepted Ben's explanation on this occasion, and that's all there is to be said (but note that "clearing" his post did not mean that there was an implicit imprimatur for it).

Will do.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Cornelius on 03 May 2018, 01:09
I like to imagine that the effect on Faye in panel 4 (or would that be panel 3?) is a representation of her panic causing her to vibrate so quickly that she begins humming loudly like a piece of industrial equipment. Marty offered to move outside partially out of concern for her and partially because it began disrupting nearby students.
Not to mention the danger to the structural integrity of the building.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Gyrre on 03 May 2018, 01:47
It's your kids, Marty! Something's gotta be done about your kids!

Thank you! ^-^

I had to make sure if anyone else had beaten me to the punch.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: de_la_Nae on 03 May 2018, 02:24
I leave this here with little comment.

Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Pennepasta on 03 May 2018, 02:30
Do you interpret this as Faye putting two and two together and realizing that Bubbles has feelings for her or she is realizing she has feelings for Bubbles?

Would be hard to realize from a back massage and from her hand running up bubbles' leg that bubbles has romantic feelings. Pretty sure she's realized hers.

Cannot disagree strongly enough with you there.

Not just because I have personal experience of it happening to me.

Well, we'll see soon. Certainly feels to me like she's realising hers, but as I lack your expertise in this area, I'll defer to you. I more fell into relationships, tbh, so not really an expert.

Also, regarding cereal: tomorrow will be Hanners eating cereal.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Nycticoraci on 03 May 2018, 02:58
Also, regarding cereal: tomorrow will be Hanners eating cereal.
Tilly eating Space Ham!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: fayelovesbubbles on 03 May 2018, 04:02
I don't even think we've seen a single human-AI relationship. There are multiple reasons for Faye to be scared. Worst case scenario, she'll disappear from the comic the way her ex did after being unable to deal with her feelings. That kind of sounds extreme, but she may not be ready to deal with any of this.

I've never been in a situation where someone so right for me was interested. I don't even know what that would feel like. I might run away.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 03 May 2018, 04:51

You do know that bisexuality is a thing, right?

Yeah, and she could very well be bisexual and in her mid 20s and experiencing the first of many attractions to women but the fact that she seems to have no other interest in women up until now and that it took this long for her to think of all the flirting etc. something more makes me think this case is kind of one of a kind for her.

Didn't mean it to be a slam against bisexual people - sorry if it came off that way.

Gotta say, I'm with you on this one.
Faye seems a bit... *old* for the stereotypical "awakening" of latent sexuality...
But who am *I* to say? I'm a middle aged, hetero, white, male.
I guess my problem with this is it seems very hard to relate to... for ME (YMMV) - given what we know about Faye, to have it suddenly crop up.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 03 May 2018, 04:55
“Bubblesexual”, but that’s not really helpful either.

Ohhhh I think it PERFECTLY describes quite a few people in here !  :)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Case on 03 May 2018, 05:05
So, what do people think has Faye so disconcerted?

Human/AI romances seem to be uncommon, since this is the first we've seen. Faye may be shocked at herself.

Yeaaaaaaah - I mean, IRL it wouldn't be unrealistic to need a bit of time to sync your beliefs about yourself, your feelz and your desires when you realize you've some things to learn about yourself yet, wouldn't it? If that's all this is, I think that's forgiveable - even if she does owe Bubbles an apology for running out on her like that. "Flawed human being encountering opportunity for character-growth" and all that ...

Faye has been terrible toward synthetics. Look how she treated Momo. Is it possible that she's not fully acknowledged them as equals? Was Bubbles a "Some of my best friends are" to Faye?

Yeeeaaaah - again, wouldn't be exactly unrealistic to have some remnants of biased thinking to work through, would it? Though in my headcanon, Faye would realize her brain being a dick & sort it out. Might take some hits (or twenty) with a clue-by-four for her to figure out exactly how & why her brain is being a dick, but I read her as at the very least wanting to be a DHB. Especially where it concerns Bubbles.

And ... when was she horrible to Momo? (Being horrible to Pintsize doesn't count, 'being horrible' is just normal social interaction to him)

Or is she simply terrified of having Feelings for someone she knows is as loyal and decent as Marten is? Someone who, unlike Sven or Angus, has LTR written all over her?

Gee, you really think so?   :angel:

She's been a model of acceptance and support to same-sex couples all along. Even someone like that could be startled and even afraid to discover same-sex longings in herself. She's done a great job overcoming her upbringing -- that doesn't necessarily mean a 100% complete job.

I know for a fact that I haven't done a 'complete job' on LGBTQ-stuff, how about you? (i.e. "DUH!") I've hurt people I hold dear hereabouts, and I know I'll probably jump on their toes again - I've been lucky they've been so gracious as to accept my apologies and promises of trying to do better.

I guess it's safe to assume by now that her subconscious tried to keep Faye from realizing her feelings for as long as possible - which in turn indicates that there was a need for time to process Some! Thing!TM before it was safe to pass The! Thing! on to the upper echelons (aka Faye's conscious). Pretty much SOP for my headmeats - really, sometimes 'I' (i.e. the conscious part of Case) feel less like the one in the driver's seat than the running commentary.

I've never been in the situation of realizing I need to re-orient my understanding of my sexual orientation, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that to some folk, it happened like that (A while ago, there were some FellowForumites who reported on their discovering unexpected attraction later in life than most, and IIRC, their experience broadly matched that description).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Gyrre on 03 May 2018, 05:10

You do know that bisexuality is a thing, right?

Yeah, and she could very well be bisexual and in her mid 20s and experiencing the first of many attractions to women but the fact that she seems to have no other interest in women up until now and that it took this long for her to think of all the flirting etc. something more makes me think this case is kind of one of a kind for her.

Didn't mean it to be a slam against bisexual people - sorry if it came off that way.

Gotta say, I'm with you on this one.
Faye seems a bit... *old* for the stereotypical "awakening" of latent sexuality...
But who am *I* to say? I'm a middle aged, hetero, white, male.
I guess my problem with this is it seems very hard to relate to... for ME (YMMV) - given what we know about Faye, to have it suddenly crop up.
It's a long time coming and we've seen it slowly develop. Something which I had advocated for back when the Faybles shippers started posting their ship support in the forums. It makes it more believable for a character like Faye whom up until Tuesday  hasn't had any indication of being romantically interested in the same sex. And, it's quite a relief that Jeph took this route instead of the 'I'm suddenly a lesbian' route webcomics like Spinnerette have taken in the past.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: de_la_Nae on 03 May 2018, 05:16
it does bear pointing out that Faye has never taken a single Goddamn relationship easily in this comic

there's little reason to think she this would be any different in that regard
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 03 May 2018, 05:25

You do know that bisexuality is a thing, right?

Yeah, and she could very well be bisexual and in her mid 20s and experiencing the first of many attractions to women but the fact that she seems to have no other interest in women up until now and that it took this long for her to think of all the flirting etc. something more makes me think this case is kind of one of a kind for her.

Didn't mean it to be a slam against bisexual people - sorry if it came off that way.

Gotta say, I'm with you on this one.
Faye seems a bit... *old* for the stereotypical "awakening" of latent sexuality...
But who am *I* to say? I'm a middle aged, hetero, white, male.
I guess my problem with this is it seems very hard to relate to... for ME (YMMV) - given what we know about Faye, to have it suddenly crop up.
It's a long time coming and we've seen it slowly develop. Something which I had advocated for back when the Faybles shippers started posting their ship support in the forums. It makes it more believable for a character like Faye whom up until Tuesday  hasn't had any indication of being romantically interested in the same sex. And, it's quite a relief that Jeph took this route instead of the 'I'm suddenly a lesbian' route webcomics like Spinnerette have taken in the past.

Oh, absolutely...
As I said, I can *see* why it may have happened. It's just a little jarring in my personal experience.
(I was a pro actor for many many years. And knew, met and was very close friends with a lot of gay guys, and lesbian women. But at no point did my love for them even think of developing into anything else. (And yes, I got offers!)   :)  )

My biggest fear now is that Bubbles (or Faye) doesn't get even more messed up by what (I think we must all admit) could be quite a difficult and stressful relationship.
(Taking all the factors into account. And what I *think* is canon that AI/Human relationships are not viewed as... 'the norm'.)
I'm still hoping, for both their sakes, that they do talk this out and decide it's a helluva step for both of them, and could lead to either an amazing relationship, or something that could inevitably hurt them both, through no fault of their own.

(Jeez... just read this... Am I making ANY sense here?)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: traroth on 03 May 2018, 05:32
So... now that the cat is out of the bag, things will be resolved one way or another. But we still don't know what Faye is actually thinking...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: de_la_Nae on 03 May 2018, 05:51
i'm sure someone's already pointed this out too, but just in case:

Jeph is giving us multiple angles on AI sexual and companionship desire. Roko, O'Malley, Momo, Pintsize, Bubbles, May, Jeremy, whats-her-name with Jeremy, Station (forgot about his thing for Hannelore), they've all got different levels of desire, different ideas about what they want, different wants.

 cuz i mean whether they're främling, raman, or maybe even getting towards varelse, they're people, and people got different ideas of shit.


also he's making the comic into a Clinton harem anime BUT THAT'S A DISCUSSION FOR ANOTHER TIME  :-*
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 03 May 2018, 05:53
So... now that the cat is out of the bag, things will be resolved one way or another. But we still don't know what Faye is actually thinking...

I think that we obviously know that Faye's calm and emotional balance has been totally blown away by this realisation. Frankly, her stress reactions makes me think that she is not immediately at ease with her reaction to Bubbles' massage. This isn't something she expected and, obviously, she doesn't know what to do.

I had to think about that italicised phrase. 'Happy' and 'Content' both carried implications that didn't really fit.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: zisraelsen on 03 May 2018, 05:56
(Snip)
Not to mention the danger to the structural integrity of the building.
I hadn't even considered that, and actually looking back I realized jeph gave us her Panic Frequency as the title of the strip! What do you figure the harmonic frequencies of Smif Library are?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Case on 03 May 2018, 05:58
But we still don't know what Faye is actually thinking...

Faye's conscious - Busy oscillating at 440 Hz.

Faye's subconscious - "Yup, looks like the Boss is taking this one in her stride ..."

Faye's libido:

(https://image.shutterstock.com/z/stock-photo-close-up-portrait-of-female-with-oh-my-god-wow-emotion-expression-pleasantly-surprised-smiling-673898872.jpg)
(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/MsMinx08/Happy%20Dance/Calvin_And_Hobbes_Dance.gif)
.
.
.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Case on 03 May 2018, 06:13
As I said, I can *see* why it may have happened. It's just a little jarring in my personal experience.
(I was a pro actor for many many years. And knew, met and was very close friends with a lot of gay guys, and lesbian women. But at no point did my love for them even think of developing into anything else. (And yes, I got offers!)   :)  )

Well ... your finding the experience of discovering that you're not as straight as you thought you were to be outside your experience is pretty much par for the course for someone who is exactly as straight as he thought he was, no?  :-D

Shortly before Jeph cliff-hangered the Faybles-arc, when we were all getting in each others' hairs about the nature of Faye's feelings for Bubbles, the matter of Faye's age came up, too, and there were two fellow forumites who said that this was pretty much their experience of discovering they weren't done learning about their orientation ...

(IIRC, one said that she had mistaken her attraction to her then-friend-now-partner as 'merely finding her aesthetically pleasing', until the "Oh? Ohhh!"-moment. I can't speak from experience, but I find that entirely plausible)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Cornelius on 03 May 2018, 06:37
I hadn't even considered that, and actually looking back I realized jeph gave us her Panic Frequency as the title of the strip! What do you figure the harmonic frequencies of Smif Library are?

I hadn't noticed that either. 440Hz shouldn't be a problem, I think, but perhaps someone with a better understanding of this kind of thing will disagree?

(IIRC, one said that she had mistaken her attraction to her then-friend-now-partner as 'merely finding her aesthetically pleasing', until the "Oh? Ohhh!"-moment. I can't speak from experience, but I find that entirely plausible)

Sounds familiar. Some people just don't realise it until they meet the right person  - and even then, it can sometimes really be just the one person, or a whole new panoply of thus far unguessed options.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: pwhodges on 03 May 2018, 07:07
A = 440Hz is the basis of standard tuning (since 1939); it's also the note to which an orchestra tunes before playing.

I guess the real performance is about to start!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: swapna on 03 May 2018, 07:21
(click to show/hide)

To me the sexual/romantic aspect of this character relationship is one topic.  It's about five percent of what there is to discuss.  It's in the future and a bunch of other things are in the present.  When fifty percent of the discussion is used to talk about five percent of the subject matter, I get impatient and wonder why people are being so willfully blind to everything else.
Particlarly in your second to last paragraph, this is something I've noticed...very broadly, not just here, not just in my friend group or Tumblr or wherever, but...everywhere. Sex and relationships get particular attention. Particular emphasis. from just about everyone. It's...not something that I entirely understand, but there are many things about neurotypical behavior that I don't understand beyond acknowledging them as fact. I might try to discuss it, as a exercise in seeing how closely I'm able to interpret what I'm seeing and further my development of a more "normal" personality, though I'm not usually terribly interested in shipping, myself.

At any rate, I guess my point is, yeah, that happens for ships instead of other kinds of plot points - like Corpse Witch's manipulations - because that's, uh, how people are, I guess, and neither you nor I are going to change how 7 billion people operate.

I didn't want to add anything to this topic, because I figured Morituri and the others who dislike it when people  get invested in romantic relationships weren't gonna change their mind, but if there's genuine lack of understanding I'm gonna add a few bits.

First of all, it's a slice-of-life comic. Characters and relationships, romantic or not, are the bread and butter of this comic; it's got sci-fi elements and sometimes plot archs, but those aren't the centre and don't 'lead' anywhere (this isn't meant as a negative, but it is very different from narratives that have a goal). So, it's natural to find a lot of people who are very much invested in romantic relationships. (If you want to read a comic where the speculation is mostly non-romantic/plot-related, there's erfworld (http://www.erfworld.com/), for example)

Second, romantic and sexual relationships are a very central part of a lot of people's lifes. They can empathise with all the intense feelings attached to it; love, joy, desire, heartbreak, jealousy... It's something most people go through and have to figure out for themselves. Most people are experts in this, so to say, because they've invested a lot more than 10 000 hours into figuring out relationships. Other stories don't have that advantage - they have to be a lot more information-dense to give readers the ability to accurately predict what's going to happen.

Third, characters. People are invested in characters. They like them, try know them inside and out, how they are, what they want, how they feel, etc. but most of the time we just see parts of it and have to figure out the rest. 

This makes romantic storylines both predictable (because of the aforementioned experience and extensive knowledge about the characters) and unpredictable (because the information is incomplete) and therefore a lot of fun to speculate about.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Case on 03 May 2018, 07:53
A = 440Hz is the basis of standard tuning (since 1939); it's also the note to which an orchestra tunes before playing.

I guess the real performance is about to start!

For the interested nerd who'd like to know how high the a1 at 440Hz is, but who lacks perfect pitch as well as sufficient motivation to dig for an oscillator-app: The a1 is also used in many nations' call-progress tones (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call-progress_tone) - the dialtone of German phones is a continuous sine-wave at 440Hz (wouldn't be surprised to learn its the same in Austria). In the US, the low-frequency ringtone and the high-frequency dialtone are tuned to 440Hz. Other nation's call-progress tones are in a similar pitch-range (e.g. 425Hz)   

I hadn't noticed that either. 440Hz shouldn't be a problem, I think, but perhaps someone with a better understanding of this kind of thing will disagree?

I haven't memorized resonance frequencies of common building materials (and common sense dictates that engineers would try to suppress susceptibilities in those materials that actually have resonances, even those well outside human vocal range) - but since most libraries have contained telephones for quite a while now I guess that if there ever were ones that had a problem with 440Hz, they've been subjected to un-natural selection by now ...  :laugh:

440Hz is also pretty comfortably within most humans' vocal range, which again would pose a problem for libraries that aim to bring humans into close proximity with the books therein.

TL;DR - No, it's not.

Edit: Not only is the a1 within human's vocal range (singing voice), but 440Hz is roughly the first harmonic (octave) of many womens' fundamental voice frequency (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_frequency) - the frequency around which our speech is modulated. Libraries prone to take damage due to female speech sound ... improbable.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: de_la_Nae on 03 May 2018, 07:54
oh wow, i forgot all about erfworld.

man i was pretty invested for a minute in high school.

oh nooooooooooo i'm gonna binge it aren't i
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: theMarc on 03 May 2018, 08:15
Be kind and generous to all people, even imaginary people who only exist in a webcomic, because that’s good practice for the real world.
This is the most profound thing I've read all year. Possibly all decade. Gonna hafta sig this.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Cornelius on 03 May 2018, 08:25
Other nation's call-progress tones are in a similar pitch-range (e.g. 425Hz)   

Yep, that's us.

440Hz is also pretty comfortably within most humans' vocal range, which again would pose a problem for libraries that aim to bring humans into close proximity with the books therein.

Thanks for the clarification. So, it won't be a problem for the building - but librarians might be another kettle of fish. Although, in this case, oversight by Tai... No, not a problem at all. She might come and contribute some more noise herself.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: awgiedawgie on 03 May 2018, 08:40
Not to mention the danger to the structural integrity of the building.
I hadn't even considered that, and actually looking back I realized jeph gave us her Panic Frequency as the title of the strip! What do you figure the harmonic frequencies of Smif Library are?
I figured the "440 Hz" as the title was in reference to the note Marten was whistling in the first panel. I don't think even Tool videos had people shaking that fast.


It's not a frequency that would do any harm to the building or its occupants. As others have already kind of mentioned, it's the A above Middle C. Long before I ever owned a musical instrument, I knew that from computer programming back in the '80s. There was no fancy music software readily available to the general public. If you wanted to make the computer make sounds resembling "music", you had to program the frequencies you wanted it to play. I've long since forgotten all the other ones, but now that I own a bass guitar, 440 stays fresh in my memory because it's always displayed on the tuner when I turn it on.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Morituri on 03 May 2018, 10:48

I didn't want to add anything to this topic, because I figured Morituri and the others who dislike it when people  get invested in romantic relationships weren't gonna change their mind, but if there's genuine lack of understanding I'm gonna add a few bits.

No worries here...  I already said, I realize my ideas of what the forum is for are no more important than anyone else's. Even if I roll my eyes, I'm not going to be angry or strident.

And, with things actually happening now, it's a lot more reasonable for people to be focused on it.  It is no longer the utter nonsense of

(unresolved, unacknowledged, possibly sexual tension between guarded, scarred, and emotionally reserved characters that aren't likely to identify/acknowledge attraction nor overcome their relationship fear even if they do, whose gender preference/identity so far isn't even known to be compatible, and who are different species) --> (HAPPILY EVER AFTER!  BECAUSE I SAID SO!)

that characterizes most shipping.  We have a seismic shift here in the last couple of comics.  Faye and Bubbles are now both aware of attraction.   So that's one difficulty dealt with.  I call that a plot point.  It advances toward the possibility of a romantic relationship, which could be good (or horrible) for both of them.  But that's not the whole damn story!

They are still guarded, scarred, emotionally reserved characters that haven't yet acknowledged attraction to each other and may decide not to, who may not overcome their relationship fear, who are different species, who now have a business and a mortgage that makes a romantic relationship TERRIFYING because a broken romance could ruin both of them (and Dora) financially.  And who may, on BOTH sides, have to build an entirely new gender identity if they want to even try to make it work.   The story is only getting started! 

Ignoring all that seems like ignoring who the characters actually are.  All these circumstances, if they were actual people, would put you on your guard against pushing them together or against making stupid assumptions, for fear that might wind up with both of them hurt, or financially ruined.  But, because SHIPPING, people are ignoring all of that and yelling HAPPILY EVER AFTER!  BECAUSE I SAID SO! 

And that's the kind of petty disrespect that upsets me about the shipping discussions.  I don't object to romance in storylines, or even romance as a topic of discussion;  I object to the gleeful leaping-to-conclusions that ignores who the characters are. I object to the negation or deliberate defiance of the plot elements and character traits that the author has spent hard work building, so that he can tell the story of the characters struggling with these difficulties.  Jumping to HAPPILY EVER AFTER! without paying attention to the story still in progress is ignoring the author's hard work.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Morituri on 03 May 2018, 11:05
It occurs to me that as an AI character, Bubbles has at least a couple of ways to cope with some of the difficulties, that humans normally don't.  It would be far easier for her than for any biological to opt for a sex change if Faye has trouble with the gender preference issue.

Which doesn't mean that it would necessarily be a good idea to do so for that reason.  If it's otherwise something she'd prefer not to do it could mean resentment later, or give a context for feelings of anger or betrayal if it doesn't work out.  Faye could wind up feeling far too much pressure after such a drastic change and that could destroy the relationship.  Or Bubbles might just be cisgendered as a female but not as a male, leading to a "working" relationship with a nasty side order of gender dysphoria.

Or it might involve downgrading to a civilian chassis of a more average size/musculature, which could be anything from liberating to its own special brand of Hell for someone accustomed to walking around a little over seven feet tall and able to wad up small cars. 

But it's an option most couples don't, practically speaking, have.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Cornelius on 03 May 2018, 11:16
I don't see that happening, though. I've the idea that to Bubbles, her chassis is one of the very few links she still has to the past she's lost. It's taken her forever to even take the armour off. I can't believe that, at this stage, it's something she'd forfeit easily, even for Faye. Even if she did, that will lead to issues later on.
And that's aside from the gender issues it might cause. After all, we've come a long way since Pintsize said it was just a hardware setting - and even then it was more than that.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Skewbrow on 03 May 2018, 11:41
440 Hz?

If it were Faye's vocal chords vibrating at that rate I wouldn't be worried at all. But it's about her brain.

Judging from the pic the oscillations have an amplitude of about two inches. Since I can only do this in metric let's go for a nice round number of 5 centimeters, that is 1/20 th of a meter. So her skull's position, as a function of time, looks something like x(t)=sin (880 Pi*t)/20, t in seconds, x in meters. This gives, by differentiating twice, x''(t)=-38720 pi^2 sin(880 pi t) as the acceleration. In other words, a peak acceleration of 38000 gee. (pi squared meters per second per second is very close to one gee). This feels like an unhealthy level of acceleration. :psyduck:

Addendum: a woodpecker's skull (https://sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2011/03/22/exploring-the-g-force-why-woodpeckers-dont-get-concussions/) is exposed to 1200 g (at 22Hz). A human will be concussed from 80-100 g.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Rincewind on 03 May 2018, 11:50
You know, the older I’ve gotten the more I’ve come to believe that these words we use to try to define people aren’t very useful. We invent terms like “heterosexual”, “homosexual”, “bisexual” and try to assign people to distinct categories based on those words. But those categories don’t really match up to the way the world actually works. People are attracted to whoever they are attracted to, they love whoever they love, categories be damned. And I say this as someone who actually fits pretty neatly into that “heterosexual” box, but I see many people around me who don’t fit any of those boxes. The concepts seem pretty well-defined until you start looking at the boundaries between them, and you see that those boundaries are so fuzzy that they don’t really exist. And the solution is not to invent more and more categories for each possible shade of meaning, because that just emphasizes our differences when we should be focusing on our similarities.

I'm so glad to read this!  It's good to know I'm not the only one who dosen't understand some peoples NEED to staple labels on other folks foreheads.  I read a line somewhere that goes "The heart wants what the heart wants"
which pretty much sums my feelings on this.  There was (still is?) a webcomic artist who was absolutely positively a lesbian, and then she went to a WebComic convention in Great Britain, met a guy who was an artist, fell in love and eventually got married.  She got a lot of grief from some of the more militant members of her group, but didn't let that get to her (too much).  I wish I could remember her name, but I'm old and so was the drive I had all my old bookmarks on.  I think her name started with a D........
 
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: jimmysuzuki on 03 May 2018, 12:50
There was (still is?) a webcomic artist who was absolutely positively a lesbian, and then she went to a WebComic convention in Great Britain, met a guy who was an artist, fell in love and eventually got married.  She got a lot of grief from some of the more militant members of her group, but didn't let that get to her (too much).  I wish I could remember her name, but I'm old and so was the drive I had all my old bookmarks on.  I think her name started with a D........
It’s DAR by Erika Moen. I remember the ending from Tumblr. https://www.darcomic.com (https://www.darcomic.com)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: fayelovesbubbles on 03 May 2018, 14:08
Which actresses would do the voice of Faye and Bubbles if this was an animated series? I was thinking about this earlier and I'd like to hear some people's ideas.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: haikupoet on 03 May 2018, 14:59
Faye: Marty, I think I'm in love with Bubbles.
Marten: Oh, okay.
Faye: Okay...?
Marten: (goes to front desk, picks up a densely scribbled piece of paper, gets phone out) Claire? Yeah, it's me. Who is... Tortura? Oh, Steve's weird Russian ex? Oh. Okay. She won the pool... wait a sec. Faye, did you talk to Bubbles about this yet?
Faye: N-no...
Marten (to Claire): Not yet, no. Still counts though, right? ...she specified Euros, huh? Okay, I'll go to the bank later.
Faye: what the fuuuu...
Marten: Never mind, Faye. Go talk to Bubbles. You two have some catching up to do. (To Claire) Honey, stop squeeing... I'm at work...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Tova on 03 May 2018, 15:06
Which actresses would do the voice of Faye and Bubbles if this was an animated series? I was thinking about this earlier and I'd like to hear some people's ideas.

There's a thread on this topic. It's around here somewhere. It might be a bit dusty... *digs aimlessly for a a few moments*

Ah, here we are.

QC the Animated Show - Voice Cast (https://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,30323.100.html)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: MrNumbers on 03 May 2018, 19:41
You know, I winced when first reading this comic, but honestly Faye does respond to feeling vulnerable with violence, and she's hella emotionally vulnerable right now, so I don't think anything else would make sense for the character.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Wombt on 03 May 2018, 19:47
It's a long time coming and we've seen it slowly develop. Something which I had advocated for back when the Faybles shippers started posting their ship support in the forums. It makes it more believable for a character like Faye whom up until Tuesday  hasn't had any indication of being romantically interested in the same sex. And, it's quite a relief that Jeph took this route instead of the 'I'm suddenly a lesbian' route webcomics like Spinnerette have taken in the past.
There are also people who genuinely experience their attraction changing over time. While Faye might find that Bubbles is more of an "exception" for her, it's also possible that going forward she begins to notice attraction to other women. In my experience, and in the experience of a number of others I know, it can also work that you need your moment of revelation to look back on your past thoughts and actions and be like, "Ooooohhh, I was being gay." And often others wouldn't have noticed either.

My position is that it doesn't make more or less sense for Faye to go on to identify herself as a lesbian, or as bisexual, or queer, pansexual, straight, anything, really. Now, what could be best in terms of writing is different. But any of it could make sense and be believable, based on what I've seen.

On a different note, I hope that people who put down shipping recognize that they're putting down an interest of people's that can be completely harmless. If this forum isn't the place for it, if people would rather not read things from it, that's all fine. But for a lot of people, shipping is just a fun thing, which can be undertaken in a playful manner, or a more serious manner depending on the person and ship. I find it interesting when people are like, "All shipping turns into x" or even "most shippers are like y," because those interpretations are very often different from my own. I ship things that I could actually see happening, like Faye and Bubbles, and random characters that I think could be good for each other, and in a more joking manner, characters who have no reason to be shipped. It's a fun way to enjoy media for me. I recognize that the last two approaches to shipping especially aren't fitting for this forum, but I also don't think they need to be put down.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: chris73 on 03 May 2018, 20:58
Panel 4 is why I just can't warm to Faye or even care about any of her problems, shes still just a bully.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 03 May 2018, 21:32
Quote from: Morituri
I object to the gleeful leaping-to-conclusions that ignores who the characters are. I object to the negation or deliberate defiance of the plot elements and character traits that the author has spent hard work building, so that he can tell the story of the characters struggling with these difficulties.  Jumping to HAPPILY EVER AFTER! without paying attention to the story still in progress is ignoring the author's hard work.

Global Moderator Comment What Morituri objected to here is close to what the moderators try to discourage. "Ignores who the characters are" is exemplified by the orientation-incompatible shipping.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 03 May 2018, 21:41
Buildings resonate around the frequencies of earthquake oscillations. Smart engineers de-tune the buildings to minimize how resonant they are.

Faye treated Momo like an object twice that I can think of. There was tossing her in the air like a toy, and there was looking up her skirt.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Bad Superman on 03 May 2018, 22:29
So, playing devil's advocate for a moment, but what if Faye really shoots down the things that have happened between her and Bubbles as her body experiencing a glitch? She said it herself: She hasn't been physical with someone in a long time, and there is this strong bond of mutual trust and friendship between her and Bubbles… (Platonic) Intimacy even. Faye's body may just have short circuited and this made her act on a certain craving…

Just going through possibilities here…
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: awgiedawgie on 03 May 2018, 23:03
Faye treated Momo like an object twice that I can think of. There was tossing her in the air like a toy, and there was looking up her skirt.
To be fair, I didn't really see that as having anything to do with Momo being an AI, per se. Faye treated almost everyone with little regard for how she would feel if the situation were reversed. Even Raven called her on it (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=336).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 03 May 2018, 23:09
Well taken point but I'd draw a distinction between being mean to someone and objectifying them.

For example, Faye ridiculed Marigold but never tried to look up her skirt.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Dandi Andi on 03 May 2018, 23:12
Panel 4 is why I just can't warm to Faye or even care about any of her problems, shes still just a bully.

I think I understand how you feel, but my feelings towards Faye have been more... ambiguous? (Sure. I'll go with ambiguous for want of a better word). I have always read her punches to fall into the category of "cartoonish non-reality". Unreal elements of hyperbole that are included and accepted as a means to convey character or tell a story that would otherwise not come across as well. Elliot crushing Clinton's hand is resolved without consequence. Pintsize is repeatedly dented or crushed or filled with cake batter only to be fine in the next strip. Punchbot is routinely ripped to pieces. Sometimes Faye punches people.

But I also feel strongly about characters I identify with. I did cringe when Faye intimidated Claire over the hair in the drain. I like Claire. I identify with Claire. When I saw Faye bullying her, I wanted to jump into the comic and stand up for her. So I can absolutely see resistance to the idea that Faye's bullying should get a pass under cartoon logic.

So reading her character more in terms of actual human bullying, what should we make of her punches? Marten and Angus didn't seem to object; at least they didn't object to the point of limiting their contact with her. Should we read that as a sign that her punches are not harmful? That they are accepted? That shouldn't necessarily make it OK. Not everyone will stand up to an abuser. But should we judge her actions in light of deontological or teleological theories of morality? Is her behavior inherently wrong due to its great capacity to do harm? Or is it acceptable because it is acceptable to the objects of her actions and appears to do no harm? Should we recognize that her bullying behavior is rooted in emotional trauma and celebrate her efforts to resolve it? Or do we condemn harmful behavior regardless of its motivations?

For myself, I take a teleological approach to morality. The morality of an action is found in its consequences, not in any inherent moral property. If the objects of her bullying are not harmed and do not perceive harm, then her actions are not immoral. I also don't think her behavior should get a pass because of her past trauma. Her actions are ultimately her own responsibility and she is responsible for resolving that trauma. Any harm that comes of her actions is similarly her responsibility and she must accept the consequences. But I'd love to hear your take on her behavior, Chris.

Now, all that said, I still can't see her as "just a bully". She has shown herself to be incredibly sensitive, loving and supportive. Even going back as far as when Marten and Dora first started dating, Faye was willing to put aside her feelings and be a good friend to them both. She was hurt, but she talked it out with Dora and fully supported their relationship from then on (unless I'm forgetting something. Could be the case. It was a long time ago). She's been incredible with Bubbles; giving her the emotional support she needs to feel safe connecting emotionally with others and allowing her to do so in her own time rather than forcing her. She's a complex human being. She has very significant flaws that absolutely should not be ignored, but that doesn't make her problems less valid or worth caring about.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 03 May 2018, 23:14
Poor Faye is really confused and upset, isn't she? As has already been said, even the hint that she might be actually attracted to Bubbles is enough to trigger her old defensive violence response! I don't think that it is as much unwelcome as it puts her ill-at-ease. She's sort of found a comfort zone, a bit like Marten has a few times; she's understandably unhappy to be forced out of this.

I can see another reason why Faye may find her reaction unwelcome. Let's say for a moment that she's just feeling an 'itch'. If she misinterprets it and does something that she doesn't ultimately want to follow up, then she'll hurt Bubbles. That's something that she wants to avoid at all costs.

FWIW, I don't think Faye is sure right now what she's feeling. She needs to sort that out before she does anything else. In order to do that, she has to accept all the realities that she's been brushing off (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3674). That's going to be hard. As I said yesterday, it's going to be especially hard given how badly all of Faye's romantic relationships to date seem to have foundered; she might be afraid of those feelings and desires now.

Faye treated Momo like an object twice that I can think of. There was tossing her in the air like a toy, and there was looking up her skirt.

Regarding objectifying AIs, I've said this before but it deserves to be said again: Up to comparatively recently, AnthroPCs were objects both in a legal sense and how they've been viewed by society as a whole. So, Faye isn't really unusual in her reactions to them.

It is my view that a major part of the entire Faye and Bubbles arc has been Faye becoming to see the person behind the plastic, something that she's never had to do before because her limited interactions with AIs, even with Pintsize, only reinforced her 'not really people' reactions to them. Being in continual close contact with Bubbles and the other synthetics at the Skate Park for day after day for many months allowed her mind to start perceiving the person rather than the machinery and, over time, she almost forgot she was a synthetic.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 03 May 2018, 23:16
So, playing devil's advocate for a moment, but what if Faye really shoots down the things that have happened between her and Bubbles as her body experiencing a glitch? She said it herself: She hasn't been physical with someone in a long time, and there is this strong bond of mutual trust and friendship between her and Bubbles… (Platonic) Intimacy even. Faye's body may just have short circuited and this made her act on a certain craving…

Just going through possibilities here…

I think she could have rationalized that way earlier on. At this point there are too many Tetris pieces for even Faye to ignore and they've fallen into place. No, she's stuck with this, even with a human's capability to rationalize things.

(Hey, is that a difference between organics and AIs? I can't remember a synthetic ever coming up with plausible-sounding reasons for a decision that was really something else. Pintsize doesn't even explain his decisions. Even Roko is covering up her bread fetish, not fooling herself about it).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: awgiedawgie on 03 May 2018, 23:18
Well taken point but I'd draw a distinction between being mean to someone and objectifying them.

For example, Faye ridiculed Marigold but never tried to look up her skirt.
Touché.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Case on 03 May 2018, 23:21
I find it interesting when people are like, "All shipping turns into x" or even "most shippers are like y," because those interpretations are very often different from my own.

It's horrible how people try to put down harmless activities of others by claiming, without evidence, that any instance of such activity, without fail, ends in [dire consequence x]. Even worse, when they make sweeping character-judgements of entire groups of people based on nothing more than their 'discomfort' at being confronted with a harmless, fun activity.

Maybe it will help calm your rattled nerves when I tell you that searches on this forum for the phrases "All shipping turns into" and "most shippers are like" turn up one (relevant) result each. Your own post.

Surely that is merely a result of your paraphrasing the despicable effluent of the undoubtedly numerous instances of incitement in a manner ill-suited to be found by search-engines. Luckily, there's an easy remedy: You can simply quote some examples to us. Two, maybe three examples for each transgression should suffice to convince any sceptic of the stunning scale of the problem and unmask the poster's vitriol.

We shouldn't suffer the reckless slander of our fellow forumites, should we?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 03 May 2018, 23:21
(Hey, is that a difference between organics and AIs? I can't remember a synthetic ever coming up with plausible-sounding reasons for a decision that was really something else. Pintsize doesn't even explain his decisions. Even Roko is covering up her bread fetish, not fooling herself about it).

I think that, for AIs, the only element of their mind that is 'subconscious' is in their sensory responses and chassis management. Roko defined her 'ticklish' response to her foot being examined as 'psychosomatic', remember? Her subconscious was actually responding to a sensory input that might not even have physical reality or at least be nowhere near as intense.

All their decision-making and thought processes seems to be 'out in front' even if, as in Bubbles case, they are able to perceive that they are irrational and feel frustration that they are unable to break their ingrained behaviour patterns.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 03 May 2018, 23:26
Quote from: BenRG
over time, she almost forgot she was a synthetic.

That's real progress but it's still in the problem range. Imagine a human telling another human "When I look at you I don't see black". Aside from the zinger "Oh really? Have you turned in your driver's license?", it carries a whiff of implication that treating the person as an equal requires not noticing their ethnicity.

As you point out, AIs were not legally recognized as our equals until recently. Faye could still be dealing with prejudice mutating through all the forms it takes as humans grow out of racism toward other organics.

"I almost forgot you're a synthetic."
"I would have thought it too obvious to overlook."
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Tova on 03 May 2018, 23:44
I think I understand how you feel, but my feelings towards Faye have been more... ambiguous? (Sure. I'll go with ambiguous for want of a better word).

Ambivalent?

I think I understand what you mean.

I sympathise with her even while I recognise that punching people is bad, mmmkay?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Dandi Andi on 04 May 2018, 00:08
Buildings resonate around the frequencies of earthquake oscillations. Smart engineers de-tune the buildings to minimize how resonant they are.

Faye treated Momo like an object twice that I can think of. There was tossing her in the air like a toy, and there was looking up her skirt.

Fundamentally, I agree with you. Her behavior towards Momo was very dehumanizing. Her presumptuousness was unacceptable.

But I also wonder about AI attitudes towards body autonomy.  From our experience with Momo, Winslow and May, changing bodies is almost like changing clothes for at least some AI. Though it seems Roko has a much stronger connection to her body. I remember Faye tossing Momo around being treated as a one-off background joke without Momo addressing it, but I don't remember her reaction to Faye looking up her skirt. Did Momo object?

I tend to think of human/AI relationships in terms of a line from Legion in Mass Effect 2. "No 2 species are identical. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism." Treating AI with the same dignity and respect due to all sapient life is important, but we may have to learn new standards of what that dignity and respect looks like.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Trebane on 04 May 2018, 00:33
I didn't interpret Faye's interactions with Momo as being anything more than light hearted jokes, Faye doesn't come across as uncaring or mean to AI, at worst you could call it
 slightly ignorant but nothing malicious.

It is difficult to process a feeling of attraction towards the same gender especially if you believed you were hetero for your whole life, you question every moment and conversation and wonder if you were being nice or being gay. No wonder Faye tries to hide it behind a facade of not getting any in a while.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: gopher on 04 May 2018, 00:49
Probably just me, but Faye is looking more and more like Tilly over the last few days.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: chris73 on 04 May 2018, 01:18
Panel 4 is why I just can't warm to Faye or even care about any of her problems, shes still just a bully.

I think I understand how you feel, but my feelings towards Faye have been more... ambiguous?

Hmm ok here we go, I guess I just don't understand certain things (sorry about how this comes across but it'd be easier in a bar) in this comic or indeed this message board. I see a lot of comics where female on male violence is generally treated somewhere between funny or well its bad but its not a big deal and I just have a real problem with that.

Sure violence can be funny but Fayes usually uses violence to threaten or shut down or just intimidate people and thats not funny and yet Faye seems to get a pass because she had a Traumatic Experience(TM) but her threatening, bullying behavior is still happening

Say that you think Tilly is a girl because she looks, talks, has the mannerisms, acts, dresses and has the interests of a girl and watch what happens yet someone punching other people and thats fine, apparantly

Yeah Faye has some good points but so do most abusers (my father certainly did) and I'm not sure how many years its been for Faye since her Traumatic Experience(TM) but as she says her own instinct is to punch (and Marten was already wincing in response to the blow) so for me that makes her a bully and as for Marten rwell he eminds me in certain ways of my own mother and in this instance thats not a good thing

Is it really a friendship where you have to worry about what you say because you'll get punched, no it isn't, Marten isn't Fayes friend hes her punching bag (emotionally and physically)




Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: awgiedawgie on 04 May 2018, 01:23
Imagine a human telling another human "When I look at you I don't see black". Aside from the zinger "Oh really? Have you turned in your driver's license?", it carries a whiff of implication that treating the person as an equal requires not noticing their ethnicity.
Interestingly enough, that's really close to how I see my friends. Sure, intellectually, I know some of them are black, some are Asian, etc., but for all intents and purposes, when I'm talking to them, I don't see their color. I see them as my friends, and as people. It's not a question of noticing their ethnicity, but rather of focusing on it. Most of the time, a person's race is almost entirely irrelevant. When you're hanging out with someone, or going to a concert, or the monster truck rally, or whatever, what difference does it really make what color skin your friends have? And in the few situations where one of my friends' race is a relevant detail, I have enough respect for them to treat it that way.


I feel like many AIs would love it if humans would occasionally forget that they are different, and simply treat them as ordinary people.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 04 May 2018, 01:29
Yeah Faye has some good points but so do most abusers (my father certainly did) and I'm not sure how many years its been for Faye since her Traumatic Experience(TM) but as she says her own instinct is to punch (and Marten was already wincing in response to the blow) so for me that makes her a bully and as for Marten rwell he eminds me in certain ways of my own mother and in this instance thats not a good thing

Is it really a friendship where you have to worry about what you say because you'll get punched, no it isn't, Marten isn't Fayes friend hes her punching bag (emotionally and physically)

I think that the thing that Marten takes into account about Faye is that, at the time he first met her, she was seriously mentally ill. She had just recently been released from hospital after what was debatably a suicide attempt and ended up moving in with him after what was debatably another suicide attempt. Even now, at least two in-universe years later, she still has a mass of mental issues and is maybe six months down the road from a third suicide attempt and is under immense emotional strain.

I don't think that Marten knew just how badly messed up she was until The Talk around Strip 500. However, I think he was aware that she was fragile and damaged goods and acted appropriately. It's worth noting that most of Faye's violence was verbal and you can tell that she was visibly controlling herself the few times she physically lashed out. Marten would have had to have been some kind of fool not to have realised that there was a serious issue there and consciously chose to deal with it because (a) he was attracted to Faye and (b) he happens to be one of those guys who feels bound to help if he can.

Please also note that Faye realises that this behaviour is wrong and has frequently been shown (as she is today) going to almost ludicrous lengths to control her behaviour.

She isn't bad, she's hurting and it has induced many unhealthy and antisocial behaviour patterns but she is perceptibly trying to overcome them.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: chris73 on 04 May 2018, 01:38

She isn't bad, she's hurting and it has induced many unhealthy and antisocial behaviour patterns but she is perceptibly trying to overcome them.

She may change sure but for as long as this comic has run (not sure of how many years it is in comic book time) she lashes out physically and is still threatening people, you only have to hit some people once (and shes punched Marten more than once) for them to be intimidated and shes also not above using that reputation on others (I'm thinking Claire)

Physical violence is worse than any spoken or written word yet some posters here are more concerned that some characters feelings might be hurt and seem to not care that there is someone in the cast physically assaulting people



Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: traroth on 04 May 2018, 02:03
Hopefully, today's comic doesn't summarize everything she really understood, or else things haven't changed that much...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Cornelius on 04 May 2018, 02:13
Physical violence is worse than any spoken or written word yet some posters here are more concerned that some characters feelings might be hurt and seem to not care that there is someone in the cast physically assaulting people

I think that may be very debatable. Verbal and psychological violence and abuse can be every bit as ugly - and are much less likely to be noticed or taken seriously by others.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: chris73 on 04 May 2018, 02:31
Physical violence is worse than any spoken or written word yet some posters here are more concerned that some characters feelings might be hurt and seem to not care that there is someone in the cast physically assaulting people

I think that may be very debatable. Verbal and psychological violence and abuse can be every bit as ugly - and are much less likely to be noticed or taken seriously by others.

If you had to choose between being physically abused or verbally abused and the physical abuse went on for as long as the verbal abuse what would you choose?

Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 04 May 2018, 02:35
Okay, Chris? Let's set aside all of the strawmen here and get down to cases:

1) This is about Marten, not me, not you and not anyone else;

2) Marten clearly didn't feel abused because, even if he wouldn't have responded, his various girlfriends certainly would have - Definitely Dora;

3) The fact that nothing ever came of it indicates that Faye's behaviour was never as threatening or as abusive as you perceive it to be.

End of story.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: awgiedawgie on 04 May 2018, 02:45
Physical violence is worse than any spoken or written word
I respectfully disagree with you. You have a very understandable personal bias against physical abuse, and I don't want to sound like I'm trivializing that. But verbal abuse can cause just as much psychological damage, and on a much more frequent basis. And verbal abuse can go entirely unnoticed by outsiders, so it tends to go on for a much longer time span. And possibly the worst part about it is that the abuser may not even realize that they are doing it unless someone points it out. I know a father whose 8-year-old son looked at him and said "Dad, you scare me." He was floored. He had no idea the effect he was having on his children up until then.


Don't get me wrong, I also think that some people are way too sensitive about certain subjects, but that has nothing to do with any kind of abuse.


That notwithstanding, I agree with you that Faye's treatment of Marten is infuriating. Sure, she has issues, but even she herself admitted that those are no excuse for behaving the way she does. She calls him her best friend, and yet routinely treated him worse than the bastard offspring of the neighbor's half-breed mutt. I am kind of a real-life Marten - I'll go out of my way to help people that others won't give the time of day - but there's no way in hell I would have put up with her hitting me more than once. Granted, I am bigger and stronger than Marten, so I could actually stop her if she swung at me. But even without the wherewithal to physically defend himself, Marten could still have given her a simple ultimatum - either knock it off, or find a new home.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Tova on 04 May 2018, 02:47
I'm staying out of this, but I did want to request that posters do be careful when quoting, because if posts end up under the wrong peoples' names, the conversation gets a bit difficult to follow. Thanks!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: chris73 on 04 May 2018, 02:50
Okay, Chris? Let's set aside all of the strawmen here and get down to cases:

1) This is about Marten, not me, not you and not anyone else;

2) Marten clearly didn't feel abused because, even if he wouldn't have responded, his various girlfriends certainly would have - Definitely Dora;

3) The fact that nothing ever came of it indicates that Faye's behaviour was never as threatening or as abusive as you perceive it to be.

End of story.

Thats the damn problem, she is abusive, physically abusive and no one calls her out on it, ever and shes never had to face up to the repercussions of her violence

Maybe if there was a storyline where she addresses her violence and understands what that violence does to others I might start to think of her differently but at the moment she lives a life where she can punch anyone she likes, threaten anyone she likes and generally be intimidating to whoever she likes and everything's hunky dory
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: ankhtahr on 04 May 2018, 02:57
Let me just ignore everything in this thread.

It's obvious why Faye's freaking out. The nature of Bubbles' back rubs has been established before (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3004).  :claireface:
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: chris73 on 04 May 2018, 02:58
Physical violence is worse than any spoken or written word
I respectfully disagree with you. You have a very understandable personal bias against physical abuse, and I don't want to sound like I'm trivializing that. But verbal abuse can cause just as much psychological damage, and on a much more frequent basis. And verbal abuse can go entirely unnoticed by outsiders, so it tends to go on for a much longer time span. And possibly the worst part about it is that the abuser may not even realize that they are doing it unless someone points it out. I know a father whose 8-year-old son looked at him and said "Dad, you scare me." He was floored. He had no idea the effect he was having on his children up until then.


Don't get me wrong, I also think that some people are way too sensitive about certain subjects, but that has nothing to do with any kind of abuse.


That notwithstanding, I agree with you that Faye's treatment of Marten is infuriating. Sure, she has issues, but even she herself admitted that those are no excuse for behaving the way she does. She calls him her best friend, and yet routinely treated him worse than the bastard offspring of the neighbor's half-breed mutt. I am kind of a real-life Marten - I'll go out of my way to help people that others won't give the time of day - but there's no way in hell I would have put up with her hitting me more than once. Granted, I am bigger and stronger than Marten, so I could actually stop her if she swung at me. But even without the wherewithal to physically defend himself, Marten could still have given her a simple ultimatum - either knock it off, or find a new home.

Fair enough, we all have our trigger points. After reading your post it just occurred that maybe whats bothering is the minimization of Fayes actions towards to Marten, has he ever actually told her to not hit him?

That and when Faye started intimidating Claire (the bit about marking her territory and the hair in the shower) and Marten didn't say anything, didn't step into protect Claire or anything, that really bugged me
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: QuestionableIntentions on 04 May 2018, 03:00
Hahaha, women hurting men, so funny
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Tova on 04 May 2018, 03:05
What are your intentions?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Cornelius on 04 May 2018, 03:14
If you had to choose between being physically abused or verbally abused and the physical abuse went on for as long as the verbal abuse what would you choose?

I'd rather not answer the question, as you usually don't get to choose. From my own experience, though, the physical violence has had much less long lasting impact.

...
Fair enough, we all have our trigger points. After reading your post it just occurred that maybe whats bothering is the minimization of Fayes actions towards to Marten, has he ever actually told her to not hit him?

That and when Faye started intimidating Claire (the bit about marking her territory and the hair in the shower) and Marten didn't say anything, didn't step into protect Claire or anything, that really bugged me

I can understand that. That's one of the points Marten needs to work on, standing up for himself, and others. In some of the comics, though, there is a very fine line between comedic hyperbole, and actual threats.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 04 May 2018, 03:36
As I said, I can *see* why it may have happened. It's just a little jarring in my personal experience.
(I was a pro actor for many many years. And knew, met and was very close friends with a lot of gay guys, and lesbian women. But at no point did my love for them even think of developing into anything else. (And yes, I got offers!)   :)  )

Well ... your finding the experience of discovering that you're not as straight as you thought you were to be outside your experience is pretty much par for the course for someone who is exactly as straight as he thought he was, no?  :-D

I'm trying my best to parse that... But I think I'm failing!!  :)

Shortly before Jeph cliff-hangered the Faybles-arc, when we were all getting in each others' hairs about the nature of Faye's feelings for Bubbles, the matter of Faye's age came up, too, and there were two fellow forumites who said that this was pretty much their experience of discovering they weren't done learning about their orientation ...

(IIRC, one said that she had mistaken her attraction to her then-friend-now-partner as 'merely finding her aesthetically pleasing', until the "Oh? Ohhh!"-moment. I can't speak from experience, but I find that entirely plausible)


Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is (in fact I'm sure I said it before) what I find most jarring about this is that it IS so far from my experience.
To me, Faye has always been shown as (for want of a better term) 'straight', and neither interested in women, nor robots in a sexual sense.
It's been suggested (I think?) that being surrounded by robots and people of other sexualities has led Faye to suddenly 'discover' this latent, Les/BI/Whichever/RoboSexuality.
All I've been saying is that in my experience, being surrounded and great friends with, and loving gay and lesbian people... Didn't do anything to 'my' sexuality in the slightest.

I get that people can be 'in denial' about their own sexuality and then have that sexuality come charging to the fore - (I heard that story a lot from some of my gay male friends) - but Faye has never been seen to be "In denial" about her sexuality, and this sudden shift just jars with me... as it's outside my own experience.

(PLEASE NOTE: I am NOT saying it is WRONG! Only that it's outwith my experience... and thus seems strange.)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 04 May 2018, 03:43
I'm so glad to read this!  It's good to know I'm not the only one who dosen't understand some peoples NEED to staple labels on other folks foreheads.  I read a line somewhere that goes "The heart wants what the heart wants"
which pretty much sums my feelings on this.  There was (still is?) a webcomic artist who was absolutely positively a lesbian, and then she went to a WebComic convention in Great Britain, met a guy who was an artist, fell in love and eventually got married.  She got a lot of grief from some of the more militant members of her group, but didn't let that get to her (too much).  I wish I could remember her name, but I'm old and so was the drive I had all my old bookmarks on.  I think her name started with a D........

Almost the plot of Chasing Amy, right there!
(Love that movie!)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: snufflebottoms on 04 May 2018, 04:44
RE: physical vs. emotional abuse, I think I get what Chris is saying and there is a willful ignoring of a very major facet of abuse because people want to express that they value the mind more than the body... which, okay but consider: 

Physical abuse is also emotional abuse. You are not going to get physically abused on any kind of regular basis and not develop trauma. The abuser will often use gas-lighting and apologizing and manipulation to keep you in the situation and to alleviate blame or guilt. It may be easier to get support but that doesn't make the abuse less severe. Just because there one specific emotional abuser that did more abuse than one specific physical abuser does not change the nature of that type of abuse.

TLDR: physical abuse can end your life  or maim you in addition to traumatize. Emotional abuse can traumatize you.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Thrillho on 04 May 2018, 04:50
Interestingly enough, that's really close to how I see my friends. Sure, intellectually, I know some of them are black, some are Asian, etc., but for all intents and purposes, when I'm talking to them, I don't see their color. I see them as my friends, and as people. It's not a question of noticing their ethnicity, but rather of focusing on it. Most of the time, a person's race is almost entirely irrelevant. When you're hanging out with someone, or going to a concert, or the monster truck rally, or whatever, what difference does it really make what color skin your friends have? And in the few situations where one of my friends' race is a relevant detail, I have enough respect for them to treat it that way. I feel like many AIs would love it if humans would occasionally forget that they are different, and simply treat them as ordinary people.

This, unfortunately, is white privilege in action. It's great to have a colourblind attitude towards life in principle, but the world is simply not yet a good enough place for that to be something we can all rely on, because that same colourblind attitude is also part of what props up the establishment.

Physical violence is worse than any spoken or written word yet some posters here are more concerned that some characters feelings might be hurt and seem to not care that there is someone in the cast physically assaulting people

I cannot disagree with this strongly enough. While obviously it can be true in many cases, it absolutely isn't true in all cases. To answer your other question, I would absolutely rather be physically abused rather than emotionally abused even if the time periods were equivalent. Physical abuse obviously has an emotional hangover too, but if it's choosing between the two I know that physical violence has had way less an effect on me than the emotional abuse I have experienced. That's just me, but that's my whole point - you can't just blanket statement things like this.

Thats the damn problem, she is abusive, physically abusive and no one calls her out on it, ever and shes never had to face up to the repercussions of her violence

Maybe if there was a storyline where she addresses her violence and understands what that violence does to others I might start to think of her differently but at the moment she lives a life where she can punch anyone she likes, threaten anyone she likes and generally be intimidating to whoever she likes and everything's hunky dory

This is a legitimate thing to raise, however; Jeph was a lot less 'woke' for lack of a better term in the early days, and so Faye's early period of physical violence is something that's kind of been retconned a little into the outward expression of someone who's been through abuse. Or Jeph has used that as a Trojan horse to reel people into her story, I don't know. But this comic is the first time I've even seen her violent tendencies mentioned in a little while.


Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Bad Superman on 04 May 2018, 04:53
So, playing devil's advocate for a moment, but what if Faye really shoots down the things that have happened between her and Bubbles as her body experiencing a glitch? She said it herself: She hasn't been physical with someone in a long time, and there is this strong bond of mutual trust and friendship between her and Bubbles… (Platonic) Intimacy even. Faye's body may just have short circuited and this made her act on a certain craving…

Just going through possibilities here…

I think she could have rationalized that way earlier on. At this point there are too many Tetris pieces for even Faye to ignore and they've fallen into place. No, she's stuck with this, even with a human's capability to rationalize things.

Just to be clear, I didn't mean 'rationalize', I meant Faye giving the situation a good hard thinking and then conclude 'Nope, this isn't who I am or what I want.'

The chance of her going down that route may be small, I don't know, but it's there, isn't it?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: emsilly on 04 May 2018, 05:11
You know, the older I’ve gotten the more I’ve come to believe that these words we use to try to define people aren’t very useful. We invent terms like “heterosexual”, “homosexual”, “bisexual” and try to assign people to distinct categories based on those words. But those categories don’t really match up to the way the world actually works. People are attracted to whoever they are attracted to, they love whoever they love, categories be damned. And I say this as someone who actually fits pretty neatly into that “heterosexual” box, but I see many people around me who don’t fit any of those boxes. The concepts seem pretty well-defined until you start looking at the boundaries between them, and you see that those boundaries are so fuzzy that they don’t really exist. And the solution is not to invent more and more categories for each possible shade of meaning, because that just emphasizes our differences when we should be focusing on our similarities.

I'm so glad to read this!  It's good to know I'm not the only one who dosen't understand some peoples NEED to staple labels on other folks foreheads.  I read a line somewhere that goes "The heart wants what the heart wants"
which pretty much sums my feelings on this.  There was (still is?) a webcomic artist who was absolutely positively a lesbian, and then she went to a WebComic convention in Great Britain, met a guy who was an artist, fell in love and eventually got married.  She got a lot of grief from some of the more militant members of her group, but didn't let that get to her (too much).  I wish I could remember her name, but I'm old and so was the drive I had all my old bookmarks on.  I think her name started with a D........

Googling your description comes up with Erika Moen of Oh Joy Sex Toy fame. She seems to be disliked by lesbians and other people for a bunch of other reasons, so it might be simplistic to say it was because she married a man. You could be talking about someone else though.

Sexuality is somewhat fluid, not a straitjacket. It's like a line of best fit, it's not a perfect description but it describes the trend. Descriptions of sexuality are a type of taxonomy, and taxonomy always has uncertain factors to it (see the species problem). That doesn't make it worthless or mean we shouldn't try to describe things. Categories are actually extremely useful and they are how we understand the world (though there are certainly dark sides, like us vs them thinking), and without them communication would be extremely difficult if not absolutely impossible. If we couldn't talk about trees, but instead had to describe one particular elm (and you can't describe it as an elm, because that's a category too) that exists in your neighbourhood (and neighbourhood and house are also categories), you'd just get bogged down. But it's useful to call it a tree, and an elm, and also to say that that particular type of elm tends to grow in your area, but there are other types of elm as well.

When it comes to sexuality, self-identification is key. There are a lot of different patterns of sexuality (and we love patterns) which are worth describing, but you'll never get a perfect read on a person without their input. You might for example think that someone is heterosexual, but they've actually always had attractions to people of their own gender but just haven't had an opportunity to date someone of that gender. Because sexuality is so much of an internal thing, it's not something you can categorise from an external view. That doesn't mean the labels are useless, you just shouldn't label other people's sexuality. It's still perfectly possible for people to be obtuse about their self-description and describe a common pattern in a way that nobody else uses.

(And, as noted above, your understanding of yourself can change over the course of your lifetime.)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Jakk Frost on 04 May 2018, 06:34
2) Marten clearly didn't feel abused because, even if he wouldn't have responded, his various girlfriends certainly would have - Definitely Dora;

3) The fact that nothing ever came of it indicates that Faye's behaviour was never as threatening or as abusive as you perceive it to be.

End of story.

2) Marten DID respond; he flinched.  As noted by someone else here, that's one of the signs of emotional trauma to repeated and expected physical abuse.

3) It's not perceived to be as threatening, because it's done by a woman, and therefore, according to the SJW enforced gender constructs, can't be threatening.  Something is only seen as bad or socially unacceptable when society tells you it's bad or socially unacceptable.  In other words, that idea that women can't be abusive or threatening is a social construct.

Woman hits man: Oh he must have done something to deserve it.
Man hits woman: How dare you ask if she did anything to deserve it, that's victim-blaming!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 04 May 2018, 06:37
Physical violence is worse than any spoken or written word yet some posters here are more concerned that some characters feelings might be hurt and seem to not care that there is someone in the cast physically assaulting people

I think that may be very debatable. Verbal and psychological violence and abuse can be every bit as ugly - and are much less likely to be noticed or taken seriously by others.

If you had to choose between being physically abused or verbally abused and the physical abuse went on for as long as the verbal abuse what would you choose?

I happen to have had the opportunity to compare. There's a thread about it in RELATE. The broken bone was not directly from violence but I was running at adrenaline speed from a violent situation. Surgery to put it back together, 6 weeks for it to heal, and 6-8 months of rehab after that.

I also had what was mostly verbal abuse in grade school, thought it was always clear that physical violence was behind it if I stood up for myself.

The verbal abuse went on longer so I am not answering your exact question.

The surgery and fracture recovery had features including losing sleep because of pain breaking through oxycodone. It was more recent, so should be fresher in my mind.

The bone that was broken into three pieces which will leave me with a reduced range of motion the rest of my life was the better of the two.

You ask an important question but it doesn't quite apply to Faye. She both insulted people and hit them hard enough to cause bruises.

Momo, btw, was NOT OK with the upskirt incident.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 04 May 2018, 06:47
BTW, I have not seen a movement or even a posse to dismiss male victims of domestic violence. There's a lack of awareness, which is why they don't have enough shelters. Different problem.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Thrillho on 04 May 2018, 07:45
2) Marten clearly didn't feel abused because, even if he wouldn't have responded, his various girlfriends certainly would have - Definitely Dora;

3) The fact that nothing ever came of it indicates that Faye's behaviour was never as threatening or as abusive as you perceive it to be.

End of story.

2) Marten DID respond; he flinched.  As noted by someone else here, that's one of the signs of emotional trauma to repeated and expected physical abuse.

3) It's not perceived to be as threatening, because it's done by a woman, and therefore, according to the SJW enforced gender constructs, can't be threatening.  Something is only seen as bad or socially unacceptable when society tells you it's bad or socially unacceptable.  In other words, that idea that women can't be abusive or threatening is a social construct.

Woman hits man: Oh he must have done something to deserve it.
Man hits woman: How dare you ask if she did anything to deserve it, that's victim-blaming!

The way 'SJW' has been appropriated absolutely boggles my mind.
I can't speak for liberals at large, but if you think the consensus on this forum is that domestic violence is fine as long as the victim isn't female, then you are astoundingly wide of the mark.

Anecdotally, I have never seen a single person fitting the SJW profile that has advocated the reinforcement of gender roles.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Dandi Andi on 04 May 2018, 10:41
2) Marten DID respond; he flinched.  As noted by someone else here, that's one of the signs of emotional trauma to repeated and expected physical abuse.

3) It's not perceived to be as threatening, because it's done by a woman, and therefore, according to the SJW enforced gender constructs, can't be threatening.  Something is only seen as bad or socially unacceptable when society tells you it's bad or socially unacceptable.  In other words, that idea that women can't be abusive or threatening is a social construct.

Woman hits man: Oh he must have done something to deserve it.
Man hits woman: How dare you ask if she did anything to deserve it, that's victim-blaming!

The only times I have ever seen "SJWs" resistant to arguments about violence against men by women, it has been when those arguments were raised as an objection to arguments about intimate partner violence against women. As though the existence of violence against men negates the problem of violence against women. It is a rejection of the "whataboutism" used to diminish the significance of an issue.

And society's failure to recognize intimate partner violence against men as a problem is not rooted in feminism or the broader social justice movement. The social justice argument is that violence against men is normalized by the perception that men are stronger than women and that being the victim of violence by a woman makes a man weak; that it is emasculating. That idea falls under "toxic masculinity" that the modern social justice movement seeks to end.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: brasca on 04 May 2018, 11:31
Okay, Chris? Let's set aside all of the strawmen here and get down to cases:

1) This is about Marten, not me, not you and not anyone else;

2) Marten clearly didn't feel abused because, even if he wouldn't have responded, his various girlfriends certainly would have - Definitely Dora;

3) The fact that nothing ever came of it indicates that Faye's behaviour was never as threatening or as abusive as you perceive it to be.

End of story.

Thats the damn problem, she is abusive, physically abusive and no one calls her out on it, ever and shes never had to face up to the repercussions of her violence

Maybe if there was a storyline where she addresses her violence and understands what that violence does to others I might start to think of her differently but at the moment she lives a life where she can punch anyone she likes, threaten anyone she likes and generally be intimidating to whoever she likes and everything's hunky dory

Agreed, but the advantage of possibly being in a relationship with Bubbles is she’s probably the only person she can’t intimidate with violence and even she admits as much.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: chris73 on 04 May 2018, 12:47
Okay, Chris? Let's set aside all of the strawmen here and get down to cases:

1) This is about Marten, not me, not you and not anyone else;

2) Marten clearly didn't feel abused because, even if he wouldn't have responded, his various girlfriends certainly would have - Definitely Dora;

3) The fact that nothing ever came of it indicates that Faye's behaviour was never as threatening or as abusive as you perceive it to be.

End of story.

Thats the damn problem, she is abusive, physically abusive and no one calls her out on it, ever and shes never had to face up to the repercussions of her violence

Maybe if there was a storyline where she addresses her violence and understands what that violence does to others I might start to think of her differently but at the moment she lives a life where she can punch anyone she likes, threaten anyone she likes and generally be intimidating to whoever she likes and everything's hunky dory

Agreed, but the advantage of possibly being in a relationship with Bubbles is she’s probably the only person she can’t intimidate with violence and even she admits as much.

But the intent is still there and on occasion shes certainly intimidated Claire  so just because she can't hurt Bubbles doesn't make it a good thing because her first reaction, without thinking, is to threaten and bully.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 04 May 2018, 12:49
You know, I think that some of you must be reading a different strip to me. She didn't 'bully' or 'intimidate' Claire. She made it abundantly clear that she expected Claire to be more considerate of her room-mates in future. Mostly because seeing a 'red tarantula' in the bath scared her out of her wits.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 04 May 2018, 13:14
Anyone have the strip reference? I seem to remember Claire being afraid.  Even more vaguely I think I remember something from early on where she tried to establish dominance.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: awgiedawgie on 04 May 2018, 13:45
It was 2930 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2930), and Marten did object to it.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: chris73 on 04 May 2018, 13:48
You know, I think that some of you must be reading a different strip to me. She didn't 'bully' or 'intimidate' Claire. She made it abundantly clear that she expected Claire to be more considerate of her room-mates in future. Mostly because seeing a 'red tarantula' in the bath scared her out of her wits.

Yeah you're right, nothing intimidating about this at all: http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2930 which is where Marten, knowing all about Faye, should have stepped in and said something, anything about Fayes behavior but he didn't which leads onto this: http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2976 where Claire seems genuinely scared that Faye will assault Marten and then we have Faye, again, intimadating Claire: http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3604

But hey its all good because Faye had a Traumatic Experience (TM)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: chris73 on 04 May 2018, 13:50
It was 2930 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2930), and Marten did object to it.

Its not quite "please don't threaten my girlfriend" is it
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: awgiedawgie on 04 May 2018, 14:11
Interestingly enough, that's really close to how I see my friends. Sure, intellectually, I know some of them are black, some are Asian, etc., but for all intents and purposes, when I'm talking to them, I don't see their color. I see them as my friends, and as people. It's not a question of noticing their ethnicity, but rather of focusing on it. Most of the time, a person's race is almost entirely irrelevant. When you're hanging out with someone, or going to a concert, or the monster truck rally, or whatever, what difference does it really make what color skin your friends have? And in the few situations where one of my friends' race is a relevant detail, I have enough respect for them to treat it that way. I feel like many AIs would love it if humans would occasionally forget that they are different, and simply treat them as ordinary people.

This, unfortunately, is white privilege in action. It's great to have a colourblind attitude towards life in principle, but the world is simply not yet a good enough place for that to be something we can all rely on, because that same colourblind attitude is also part of what props up the establishment.
Interesting response. I didn’t say what color my skin is, and yet you seem to assume that I’m white. So, do I understand you correctly? You think that it’s a bad thing that I don’t make an issue out of the color of my friends’ skin? Even though they appreciate that from me, when so many other people do make an issue of it? It seems to me that if more people would adopt a colorblind attitude, the world would be a better place.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 04 May 2018, 14:13
Taken completely out of context - Claire was being rude to Faye. Did Faye hit her? Beat her bloody? No, she told her that she won't let her relationship with Marten let her disrespect her and her art.

FWIW, at the time, it was my impression that Claire was the one initiating the conflict.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: chris73 on 04 May 2018, 14:17
Taken completely out of context - Claire was being rude to Faye. Did Faye hit her? Beat her bloody? No, she told her that she won't let her relationship with Marten let her disrespect her and her art.

FWIW, at the time, it was my impression that Claire was the one initiating the conflict.

Claire was being sassy, just like Faye is, and when Faye got a bit of her own medicine Faye didn't like it at all. When you have a reputation for being violent you don't have to hit someone you only have to threaten because the violence is implied.

Ok for the sake of argument lets say Claire went to far,  was Fayes response appropriate? No Faye escalated the situation by implying violence which was a dick move considering that Faye is larger and stronger than Claire, Claire has shown no real outbursts of violence herself and is generally considered meek and nerdy

In short Claire is no threat to Faye at all so no need for implied violence in this situation but thats what Faye likes, she likes to bully and intimidate people, its her go to

Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: awgiedawgie on 04 May 2018, 14:19
It was 2930 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2930), and Marten did object to it.

Its not quite "please don't threaten my girlfriend" is it
He's visibly unhappy. And he may not have used those exact words, but actually, yes, that's pretty much what he did say.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: BenRG on 04 May 2018, 14:21
I'm really getting the impression that this is personal for you. Very personal. But we won't go there as it is mostly irrelevant.

It's pretty clear to me that you and I see totally different things in the same strips and it is pointless debating when the other person isn't even in the same reality as you.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: chris73 on 04 May 2018, 14:30
It was 2930 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2930), and Marten did object to it.

Then I'd suggest he tries a little bit harder because it doesn't seem to be working:

http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3604

Fayes reaction reaction here, once again played for yucks, seems a tad disproportionate to what happened
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: chris73 on 04 May 2018, 14:30
I'm really getting the impression that this is personal for you. Very personal. But we won't go there as it is mostly irrelevant.

It's pretty clear to me that you and I see totally different things in the same strips and it is pointless debating when the other person isn't even in the same reality as you.

I agree with you
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Thrillho on 04 May 2018, 15:16
Interestingly enough, that's really close to how I see my friends. Sure, intellectually, I know some of them are black, some are Asian, etc., but for all intents and purposes, when I'm talking to them, I don't see their color. I see them as my friends, and as people. It's not a question of noticing their ethnicity, but rather of focusing on it. Most of the time, a person's race is almost entirely irrelevant. When you're hanging out with someone, or going to a concert, or the monster truck rally, or whatever, what difference does it really make what color skin your friends have? And in the few situations where one of my friends' race is a relevant detail, I have enough respect for them to treat it that way. I feel like many AIs would love it if humans would occasionally forget that they are different, and simply treat them as ordinary people.

This, unfortunately, is white privilege in action. It's great to have a colourblind attitude towards life in principle, but the world is simply not yet a good enough place for that to be something we can all rely on, because that same colourblind attitude is also part of what props up the establishment.
Interesting response. I didn’t say what color my skin is, and yet you seem to assume that I’m white. So, do I understand you correctly? You think that it’s a bad thing that I don’t make an issue out of the color of my friends’ skin? Even though they appreciate that from me, when so many other people do make an issue of it? It seems to me that if more people would adopt a colorblind attitude, the world would be a better place.
Happy to admit I have no idea what race you are, but part of the issue of writing on this forum is that I often don't write down everything I am thinking, and so I missed out - your personal race was not actually relevant to my point, and I definitely shouldn't have said white privilege specifically.

The world would be a better place if everyone was colourblind. But if simply more were, then you run a risk of people being overlooked.

Being from a racial minority in a lot of areas in countries with a higher GDP makes it more likely you will have a poorer background, a less effective education, and receive less opportunity. If the world becomes partly colour blind without being completely so, then on paper I think many things in life would take a step back, because on paper, you're going to find a lot of white people with further advantage.

I'm obviously not saying that the world is a worse place because you treat your friends as people regardless of race - I'm more accurately saying I don't trust a lot of world as much as I trust you to be able to genuinely be colour blind. Because I absolutely believe you can, but I also know that I definitely can't, and as a matter of fact as a white person don't yet feel that I should, because in my immediate friendship group there is a lot of discussion about difficult topics and a bit of activism, and so not considering the backgrounds of each individual is a mistake. But then as I write this, that could be argued as treating them in a colourblind fashion.

TL;DR: I do not trust colourblindness as a tool in many hands.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: awgiedawgie on 04 May 2018, 15:40
There's a time to be colorblind, and a time to be color-conscious. If you can overlook a person's race when it really doesn't matter, but respect it when it really does, then you're on the right track. When you mention discussing difficult topics and activism (there's also different medical problems, for example, that affect different races), that's what I was talking about where race is a relevant detail. And of course there's also people's personal background to consider. For example, a white person who has lived in an African country for 15 years will have different views and different concerns than say a white person living in Little Rock, Arkansas. They tend to think and act a lot like the native Africans, even if they relocate to a predominantly white area in America.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Morituri on 04 May 2018, 16:42
There are a lot of people for whom some level of violence is in fact a "normal" part of their relationships.  And they're not stockholm-syndrome zombies, they're pretty ordinary people who mostly don't hesitate to reciprocate in kind. 

Thing about that is, they aren't trying to actually hurt each other.  They don't regard it as traumatic or even problematic. Nobody gets more than a bruise, they're still friends the next day, and they don't consider themselves or their partners to be "abused." 

Faye isn't even going that far.  Has Faye ever actually injured someone in this comic?  I can't recall a single time.  In the absence of any indication that anyone has ever been actually physically hurt by her, I don't think I can take her so-called violence as an indication that she's physically abusive. 

She makes threats, which is emotionally abusive.  But the other hallmarks of emotional abuse aren't there; she doesn't try to drive people away from their other friends nor deprive them of support the way classic abusers like Corpse Witch do. Think of Corpse Witch trying to manipulate Bubbles into never going out, mistrusting all humans, and having no friends beyond the skatepark.  THAT is emotional abuse.  Faye doesn't reduce anyone's options for dealing with her that way, nor make arbitrary demands that prevent anyone from living a normal life.  And nobody's life is reduced to the point where a major part of their reality is just being her victim over and over, which someone has to be trying to do before I'd be willing to even call them a bully.   Think of CreepyBot and the delight s/he took in the prospect of deliberately torturing someone reduced to a helpless state, forever. That's a bully.  That's not what Faye's doing.

All told, it looks more like she has trouble controlling her temper, in general, than it looks like she's engaging in any kind of calculated abuse, like Hanners' mom or Corpse Witch or bullying, like CreepyBot.

Maybe you're just using these words to refer to different kinds of behavior than everyone else?

Faye needs a better vocabulary for talking about her feelings, better negotiating tactics, more willingness to respect others' boundaries....  but I don't see any support for the idea that she's a 'bully' or a 'thug' or any serious kind of 'abuser.'
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Near Lurker on 04 May 2018, 17:01
I feel like it's a joke of its time, like Marten and Dora's transphobic banter or Faye's exhortation Sara rape "hump" Marten against his will (NB: when this joke was censored, the objection addressed was apparently to referring to holding a man down over a counter and enveloping him as "rape," not to the act itself), to which this is a self-flagellating callback that merits far less scrutiny than Faye's admission Bubbles' backrub physically turned her on.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Morituri on 04 May 2018, 17:24
I just noticed in the archive that Claire has probably been shipping Faye & Bubbles too.

THANK GOD she resisted the urge to push.

http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3605
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: awgiedawgie on 04 May 2018, 21:17
I just noticed in the archive that Claire has probably been shipping Faye & Bubbles too.

THANK GOD she resisted the urge to push.
That's a comforting sign that she has learned from the mistakes she made with her brother.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: swapna on 05 May 2018, 00:19
(click to show/hide)
Faye needs a better vocabulary for talking about her feelings, better negotiating tactics, more willingness to respect others' boundaries....  but I don't see any support for the idea that she's a 'bully' or a 'thug' or any serious kind of 'abuser.'
I just came in here to say exactly that - including the part how some people's friendship is different, has different boundaries, and yes, might include the occasional punch. And no, not just ladies hitting gentlemen, and not always does the other person hit back. And sometimes it leaves a bruise. And yet, those friendships are loving, supportive and nobody considers themselves abused or forces to do something they didn't want to do.

Furthermore, I fully support Faye making it abundantly clear that cleaning up after yourself is not optional. I've lived with roommates straight out of hotel mom way too long for that. 
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: pwhodges on 05 May 2018, 00:43
And yet, those friendships are loving, supportive and nobody considers themselves abused or forces to do something they didn't want to do.

And yet, and yet...   From time to time we observe that the scales may drop from such people's eyes when they realise that they bought some kind of stability which they thought could be called happiness by giving up all the other possibilities for their life; they then discover regret.  The cynical might say that is the normal state of marriage.  But a change in viewpoint can come from the effect of slow but inexorable changes in the way society as a whole sees relationships.  We all hope our choices are for the best by the criteria we are familiar with at the time we make them, but then if things change...
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 05 May 2018, 07:25
Global Moderator Comment How is Randy the bandicoot like the Faye argument?Both are eternal.Please respect the thoughts and feelings of people who disagree with you.This is meant for everyone and not just for one person.

(regular user)
My own opinion is that the more realistic the strip gets, the less funny Faye's punches and threats are.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Case on 05 May 2018, 08:55
Faye needs a better vocabulary for talking about her feelings, better negotiating tactics, more willingness to respect others' boundaries....  but I don't see any support for the idea that she's a 'bully' or a 'thug' or any serious kind of 'abuser.'

Yeah ... good point. I concur. It's just that her punching is part of a trope that normalizes the violence of bullies and thugs and 'serious kind of abusers'. (Is there a kind that's not serious?) She's not an abuser, but her punching being played for laffs is a teensyweensy part of an abusers camouflage. It's one of the very few things Jeph did less than stellar.

I certainly won't quit QC, and I. Do not. Hate. Faye - but I stopped laughing about Faye's punching a long time ago. (Actually, I never started, but that's another story)

This forum has had epic threads of post after post of Very Decent Human Beings explaining to Akima how they think she's completely right that Firefly is hilariously flawed in the way it deals with Chinese culture ... andcouldwepleasestoptalkingaboutthisandgetbacktoBrowncoatjokes? Human beings busy being very human indeed.



Are we doing a good job right now?

I look at all the good posts on the topic, from all the sharp cookies we have on this board, and the longer I look the antsier I become. Not about what we say - about what we DON'T say. I notice that we make a lot of astute observations about a lot of important stuff, but are we making a simple, affirmative gesture that would signal to the male DV survivors reading this: "I'm with you. You're right, I'm not laughing either"?

And this is a bad look for a board that learned in all the tricks & ways society employs in "Project Displacement - How to completely ignore a problem and shut out everyone affected AND convince yourself you're Doing! Something!". Every second spent explaining our feelings and our perspective is a second someone is waiting for us to acknowledge theirs. It looks as if we're ready to talk about every old thing in the Universe, as long as it allows us to put off acknowledging another human being's pain for five more minutes, or how - God beware! - there might be a bit of a blind spot in our Weltauffassung!, or how our team might not have covered itself in glory dealing with that one in the past ... That's not us. Let's not give this impression.

Let's not give the impression that we're ready to write elegies to defend feminism or the social justice movement against another stupid MRA-provocation meme and not spend a second talking TO a survivor instead of AT them. That's what those memes and provocations were designed for in the first place: To trick us into alienating a survivor. To go all cerebral and start EXPLAINING! FEMINISM! when we should be making an emotional connection. You don't need to be a genius to figure this out.  There's no grand strategy behind those memes, and yet they're still kicking our asses all over the place. You don't need to be a genius to learn how play Mom & Dad against each other - toddlers figure out how to do that, just by trial & error and observing closely. And they barely have a theory of mind, let alone a grand societal theory.

Liberals are hilariously bad NOT falling for this trick: A lot of progressives are academy trained. Part of that training is to make going into the abstraction an instinctive move. And going all abstract is one of the oldest, and most effective displacement tactics - it's called rationalization. Maybe we feel just the slightest bit uncomfortable, or out of our depths - for whatever reason - What better way to not confront that than to rationalize?

Guys? Feminism and the social justice movement will survive if we don't defend them for five minutes. Yes, I'm sure of that. In fact, what it might not survive is us not shutting up about it for five minutes.
Not everybody who talks about feeling wary of some aspects or fringe elements of online feminism is an MRA. Some guys might just want vent for bit, want to make their pain and disappointment visible. And they don't have to get it completely right while they vent. Letting them do that, at least for a while, is not going to kill 'the movement'. And it's a good start building trust. Next step would be avoiding our instinct to patiently lecture the audience why the anger of the uninitiated is understandable, but misguided.  Every time we do that, Paul Elam orgasms. It makes us look all manners of dumb, of the kind of 'dumb you need a degree for'


P.S.: From this moment forward, I will kill one of these cute kittens every time someone says the words 'patriarchy', 'privilege' or 'this is part of the patriarchy that the modern social justice movement seeks to overcome' while talking about male DV survivors.
 Do you have any idea what those words mean to JoeBlow out of Bumbfuck, AZ who doesn't like Paul Elam, but thinks that not everything on AVFM.com is wrong? To Joe, they mean, respectively: "Misandry doesn't exist, because everybody who claims otherwise is misogynist. QED", "Wait until I'm done talking about your problem" and "Male DW survivors should wait until Feminism has finished solving womens' problems. Of course we'll start on the rest right afterwards".

You have been warned - think of the kittens.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Case on 05 May 2018, 09:59
The only times I have ever seen "SJWs" resistant to arguments about violence against men by women, it has been when those arguments were raised as an objection to arguments about intimate partner violence against women. As though the existence of violence against men negates the problem of violence against women. It is a rejection of the "whataboutism" used to diminish the significance of an issue.

Yeah, about that one ... you remember the #whataboutzemenz - meme? Brilliant idea, that one - if you feel exhausted by a small, but determined clique of MRA's anti-feminists hounding feminist spaces, create a meme that plays on ridicule and male fear of appearing weak, omit any anything that would signal differentiation between bad-faith trolls (whose attacks are virtually unknown to anybody but you and your friends) and every male DV survivor on the planet, aim it at one of the oldest festering wounds that toxic masculinity has struck, and release it into the wild to propagate freely. Beyond your control. Wasn't there something we ...? OHSHIT!

What could possibly go wrong?

Surely everyone will understand you didn't mean to actually ridicule the concerns of male DV survivors in a way guaranteed to put 'that look' on every single male face (The empty-eyes look. The 'you can't hurt me' look. The 'one step further' look).

Then write long articles bemoaning how many people did indeed think this was exactly what you were doing, because the virality of your meme has pretty much erased any possibility you have to clarify your intentions in time. Don't forget to appear as if you think that male DV survivor's concerns are a distracting footnote in the struggle for gender equality, even if you don't think that is the case, but you just had to add that one thought more ...

Do you know that old adage that Feminism has the PR deparment from Hell? Yes. It does.

And society's failure to recognize intimate partner violence against men as a problem is not rooted in feminism or the broader social justice movement.

That's very true. It's so true that even non-feminist advocates for male DV survivors acknowledge and emphasize this (Yes, unicorns sane men's-issues advocates actually do exist. And no, they don't think much of the MRA, either. But they won't turn away men who are MRA-affine, or are eager to ride to the defence of Feminism in the aftermath of the latest 3rd waver wunderkind's attempts to explain to everyone what they are getting wrong and how Feminism clarifies & addresses the real problemTM .

No, it's not Feminism that taught boys not to cry, and taught them so well that middle-aged men don't notice their major depression until it's almost too late. It's not Feminism that chewed off boys ears about  rugged independence until male students have to be taught that it's OK to ask their TA's for help because that's what they are getting paid for. It wasn't Feminism that taught boys that real men are basically statues, and then wondered why legions of men don't have the faintest idea what they are feeling. It wasn't Feminism that did all those things to men - not realizing that this toxic ideal would men practically helpless to defend themselves against abusers, especially female ones, to the point where some don't even realize they are being abused (of the first cohort of British male abuse victims who were given shelter places newly assigned for that purpose by the UK parliament, every single one had been registered by a female friend or family member. Not one of the men had asked for help themselves).

It's just that a goodly chunk of the more visible parts of online feminism, especially the virally savvy parts, is jaw-droppingly excellent at leaving exactly that impression, especially when they set out to dispel that precisely that impression. Cf. everything Lindy West ever wrote for Jezebel, ever, the 'bathing in male tears'-meme, the roaring success that was 'ironic misandry' and ... oh c'mon, were have you been the last four years?

That idea falls under "toxic masculinity" that the modern social justice movement seeks to end.

I ... would consult a unicorn sane mens' issues advocate (*) for the cases were that isn't the whole truth before I repeated that in certain circles.

(*) Ally Fogg's https://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat. Don't delve directly into the articles tagged 'feminism', get a feel for the site first. No, he isn't an MRA, and no, he isn't anti-feminist, but ... online Feminism really spends a lot of time sticking its foot in its mouth, and Ally is not its PR-manager. Note of caution: Ally really is that unicorn, but the comments are not a safe space. They're more of a social experiment a la "Take a bunch of semi-domesticated MRA's and Feminists, take away the guns and knives and dig through the rubble for the useful ideas. Don't forget to bring an asbestos suit and shovels. Lots of shovels ..." There's only one rule: Comments solely aimed against either Feminism or MRM as institutions/philosophies are forbidden. It's surprisingly effective - particularly since a lot of MRAs are actually anti-feminist - but there is a chance you'll witness Paul Elam and the WeHuntedTheMammoth-dude slug it out in the comments
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Dandi Andi on 05 May 2018, 12:17
...

Nope. I'm done.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Case on 05 May 2018, 12:21
...

Nope. I'm done.

Wait! Please.

I thought I was talking about how a goodly chunk of the social justice movement, especially the parts enchanted by viral strategies, don't notice how effective the MRA are at exploiting the social justice movements' own blind spots to use viral campaigns against the campaign's originators - and then wonder about how the hell "the backlash" is so extreme.

How did it sound? Apparently not as good as in my head.

What did you think I was trying to say? Apparently, there were some slight differences between what was in my head, and what appeared on screen. (Oh the irony ...)

P.S.: I would greatly appreciate your help with understanding in more detail how I fucked up, but at a glance, my use of sarcasm was ... ill-advised, to put it mildly. What I set out to express is almost completely buried under the smart-aleckness. My apologies.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Morituri on 05 May 2018, 15:40
Please don't give up on the board just because a sensitive topic came up.  This board actually handles sensitive topics and does it well.

On this board, in the non-comic discussion areas, those of us who have gotten to trust each other's sincerity and goodwill kick around some very inflammatory topics.  Things polite people simply don't discuss among strangers in public, because very strong opinions often result in traumatized or offended people, or bad behavior.

Unmoderated discussions online bring out some of the worst in people, we know that.  They tend to bring ill will, or unchecked verbal abuse, or the bullying and baiting tactics of the more strident and adversarial forums, or otherwise "shed more heat than light" as my dad used to say. 

But that's not what happens here.

We've talked about racism - even about Nazis and eugenics programs - we've talked about the backlash against gay and bi and trans people and about responses to it.  We've talked about abuse and mental illness and mass shootings and guns and the gun control lobby. We've discussed slavery, and trafficking.  We've even discussed American Politics and some of the other darkest topics that humanity comes up with.  The culture here is pro human rights and mostly liberal, but there have been a wide variety of viewpoints and they've been presented respectfully.

And I promise, it's been civil.  With very few and short-lived exceptions.  This place has REALLY good moderators.  They allow ideas to be expressed as long as it's done civilly.  But when someone gets abusive or outright insulting, they get stopped.  Even with the banhammer, if necessary.  Honestly and truly, you don't need to worry about being bullied or baited or insulted or mocked by a toxic "Mens-Rights-Advocate" as they call themselves, even though that's their favorite tactic where they are given free rein.   And that's not who Case is.

Seriously.  Stay a while, talk with us.  You're safe.  It's okay that people have different opinions.  And I'm telling you just about everybody here, just about all the time, will actually listen and thoughtfully respond, instead of just shouting and bullying.  It's a really good place like that. 
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: HiFranc on 05 May 2018, 17:59
On Faye and violence, she was called out on it. Admittedly, after they moved:
http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=416
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Dandi Andi on 05 May 2018, 18:30
Morituri,

Yes. I know. I spend a lot more time in the Discuss board than I do in this one. I don't post nearly as much as I lurk, but that's mostly because I find the people who do post there to be thoughtful and well informed (including and even particularly Case) and I don't often feel I can add much more than they already have. I am not giving up on the board or the forum. I was feeling very ill at ease and was in no place emotionally to continue in the conversation in that state. When I am upset, I make mistakes. Occasionally vulgar ones that I cannot unmake. I do not want to do that here. So I stepped away.

Case,

I know very well that you did not intend to be hurtful and that any insult I may have felt was at least as much my own biases filtering your words as it was anything you posted. Intimate partner violence against men is a difficult subject for me (and I swear is not the topic I meant to bring up when I initially addressed Chris. I was looking for a discussion about how we as an audience react to realistic violence in a cartoon setting where other acts of violence are framed as normal. I should have done more to clarify that). Once that nerve was struck, I was not in a place to handle further conversation. I feel that now I am. But I feel that why I reacted the way I did warrants explanation and is possibly relevant to the discussion at large, so please bear with me while I expose some scar tissue.

And even thought it's already in the thread title, Content Warning for domestic violence

I was assigned male at birth. I still present male in public places because it's safer and my secondary sexual characteristics are very prominent. Presenting female actually increases feelings of dysphoria for me because it highlights the parts of my body that are not feminine. In spaces like this where my body doesn't matter, I much prefer presenting as female and using she/her pronouns. Because my dysphoria is highly dependent on my situation, I generally describe myself as non-binary. I am also demisexual and bi. Thirteen years ago, I had no idea that those were things that someone could be. Mostly because of my "conservative" religious upbringing, I thought trans people were just homosexuals with a weird sex thing and that being gay or bi was something other people were, but definitely not me. As far as anyone knew, including myself, I was just a chronically depressed cis het man. Thirteen years ago, I also got married.

It was fine at first. I was happy. But she had a habit of kicking over sand castles just because you were proud of them and she thought you shouldn't be. "It was a joke. Lighten up. It's only a sand castle." This should have been a red flag, but I didn't see it. Slowly, emotional abuse escalated. When we fought, if I got too angry, I was a bully. If I didn't get angry enough, I was emotionally distant and I didn't care. There was never a right amount of angry to be. If I got upset about something she did, she would soon enough launch into a crying fit about how I thought she was a terrible wife and I must hate her and refused to speak to me until I apologized and reassured her that she was a wonderful wife and I was wrong to have brought it up. We never did talk about my damned sand castle. I became more and more unhappy. When I once suggested separating for a while to cool our heads and to get into therapy once we were in an emotional state to do so, she threatened suicide if I left. So I stayed. One night, the fighting became too much and I said I was going to go stay with a friend until we calmed down. She began screaming. She started hitting me; throwing punches. Her shouting wasn't even coherent at that point. I tried to get away, but she planted herself in front of the door and wouldn't let me pass. I didn't want to take a chance with the back door, because that way led through the kitchen where the knives were. Eventually I was able to force my way past the door and out for the night.

The next day I had a fat lip and a black eye. She had a few bruises on her right arm where I had tried to push her arm away to get away. To get her to stop hitting me. Mutual friends who I thought knew me and trusted me were sure I was lying, that I must have instigated the violence because she had a bruise. Other friends laughed and mocked me because my wife gave me a shiner. Others insisted that I should have been the "bigger person" and not defended myself because I was larger and therefore more of a threat to her than she was to me. Others thought it was no big deal because she didn't do any "real damage". Exactly one person was supportive of me. Out of all our friends and family, only one of them saw me as the wounded party.

The next day she checked her self in for a suicide watch at our local psychiatric hospital. She made sure I knew through mutual friends. Three days later when she was out, I was back at home with her because "I couldn't do that to her". I went right back to the emotional abuse and manipulation because I was afraid she might actually hurt herself. I went through three more years of that before she left me for being queer.

So believe me, I know how real domestic violence against men is. I know how hard it is to get help. I know how deep those wounds are and how deep that poison runs. I get it 100%. And to me, the feminists whose work I read and the feminists I associate with, the toxic attitudes about manhood and toughness that make it so hard to get help are a very important part of the overall target of feminism.

Your post felt very personally accusatory. It felt like you were saying "How can you not see how hurtful and toxic these comments are to men who have actually suffered DV? How can you not see how insensitive you're being?" Your strike-throughs and footnotes seemed snide at best and sardonic at worst, as if suggesting that I can't see the difference between men with legitimate social grievances (and there are some real doozies!) and the bog standard, trilby-wearing MGTOW. Now, I don't know you super well, but I know you well enough to know that it wasn't your intention to make me feel that way. But once I was feeling that way, I couldn't articulate a response and I didn't want to lash out. I wasn't sure I was going to be able to return to the discussion in a rational way, so I bowed out in as short a way as I could to avoid saying something I did not mean. I'm sorry if my abruptness caused concern or offense.

Honestly? No. I never saw the #whataboutzemenz meme or the bathing in men's tears meme. I have never read Jezebel. I don't know who Lindy West is. Maybe I have been living under a rock for the last four years. Maybe that's a giant blind spot for me. In fact, it absolutely is. I have the luxury of not associating with the more toxic aspects of feminism or the social justice movement. I know that they exists, certainly. I've been called a brown shirt and told that I am exactly what's wrong with this country for refusing to call everyone right of Bernie Sanders a Nazi or suggesting Feminism would benefit from more robust internal criticism. But not nearly as often as I've been ridiculed because I did call the people waving black suns and odal runes Nazis. But I'm not often the target of the hate speech from the far left, so I don't see it if I don't go looking for it. The hate speech from the far right comes straight to my door every day. So if you've got good suggestions as to where I need to be looking (I do appreciate the suggestion of Ally Fogg, by the way), I'm very open to that.

My comment about feminism being concerned about male DV victims was a response to Jack Frost. I should ahve quoted them. I will do so now.

Quote
3) It's not perceived to be as threatening, because it's done by a woman, and therefore, according to the SJW enforced gender constructs, can't be threatening.  Something is only seen as bad or socially unacceptable when society tells you it's bad or socially unacceptable.  In other words, that idea that women can't be abusive or threatening is a social construct.

Woman hits man: Oh he must have done something to deserve it.
Man hits woman: How dare you ask if she did anything to deserve it, that's victim-blaming!

That comment looks a lot like blaming social justice advocates for the current state of abuse against men; using SJW in a way as it is often intended as derogatory, insisting that the relevant social constructs are enforced by social justice advocacy rather than having existed long before the modern social justice movement and the straw argument at the end. Jack Frost was arguing against a point that, as far as I can see, nobody in this thread was making; that violence is OK if a woman is doing it. If I just missed that comment, I will gladly be corrected. Seeing that argument was deeply frustrating. I'm sure that just about everyone who has seriously discussed and social issue from any position has dealt with being argued past. You can feel like you have to mow a field of strawmen before the discussion can move on. It's a common obfuscation tactic.

I'm sure other people have made that argument in other places, but they aren't talking to them. They are talking to us. And nobody here is making that argument. I suspect that is because we all know it's a bad argument.

Now, Having said all of that, Case, I don't think you're wrong. At all. Not even a little. "Are we doing a good job right now?" No. Not only no, but hell no. As I said, arguing past someone is a popular and effective obfuscation technique. It is not at all uncommon to enter an argument and demand that others answer for the worst arguments of those perceived to be on "their side". "This other blogger said the bad thing therefore your entire position is characterized by the bad thing" is an easy way to get your opposition to talk about what you want them to talk about rather than the issue at hand. Being toxic is a good way to get your ideological opposition to talk about the toxicity of "your side" and make more moderate voices feel slighted and, subsequently, sympathize with their more toxic "allies".

The "Kekistan" flag is nothing but a recolor of a Nazi war flag. But when not-at-all fascist or racist conservatives feel like they are getting lumped in with the actual-very-real Nazis, those Nazis pat them on the back and reassure them that the left just like calling people Nazis and they're clearly irrational and they don't have to engage with them. Then the not-at-all fascist or racist conservatives adopt the Kekistan flag now thoroughly convinced that it isn't a Nazi flag and wear being called a Nazi as a badge of pride. Before you know it, you can no longer tell who the real Nazis are in the crowd, and that is exactly how they want it.

I don't believe that's what Jack Frost was doing, but the effect of my response is not entirely different. By stopping to effectively preach to them to "EXPLAIN! FEMINISM!", I was not helping. If I mean to engage publicly in this discussion (the broader discussion of social values, not this specific discussion), I need to do better. I think You were right to call attention to it.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Dandi Andi on 05 May 2018, 20:35
Faye isn't even going that far.  Has Faye ever actually injured someone in this comic?  I can't recall a single time.  In the absence of any indication that anyone has ever been actually physically hurt by her, I don't think I can take her so-called violence as an indication that she's physically abusive. 

I don't think that doing lasting physical damage should be our standard of whether or not violence against someone is acceptable. My ex-wife punched me in the face. She didn't break my nose, but it did hurt and it was not OK. As HiFranc pointed out, Marten and Dora have expressed a preference for not getting punched.

"We like the fact that we can horse around with you a little bit without having to fear for our lives."

"Yeah. It makes you a lot more fun to be around."

And that was more than 3000 strips ago, before the strip started turning more realistic. And Faye's respect for people's boundaries has been highly selective. She has shown poor respect for Claire and Momo both. While some degree of violence absolutely can be acceptable in a relationship, it is only so if it happens within and with respect for the boundaries set by the people in that relationship.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 05 May 2018, 20:39
As got mentioned in passing above, the kind of people who operate shelters for male DV victims refuse to associate themselves with MRA types.

Marten did not move out or call the police or tell Faye to stop. Fact.

Faye did not take away Marten's money or drive away his friends. Fact.

Marten is not a good judge of what's going on because he does not have a normal ability to stand up for himself. I cite his mother's first visit. We don't have to agree with Marten about the seriousness of Faye's punches.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: awgiedawgie on 05 May 2018, 22:29
Also, one unfortunate problem that can complicate matters - and this may or may not be the case with Marten - is that some people gravitate toward abusive friends or partners simply because they feel they deserve to be treated that way, or that they don't deserve to be treated any better. As I mentioned in another thread, my ex-wife left me for a man who routinely beat her and rarely let her out of the house. Because she was convinced that she wasn't good enough to be treated nice. And no amount of effort on my part could convince her otherwise. She felt she deserved to be mistreated, and she knew she wasn't going to get that from me.


No, this tendency in no way excuses Faye's behaviour, but it might explain why Marten - considering his childhood - may not have objected more forcefully, or why he couldn't object more forcefully, to Faye's actions. I really hope that this does not sabotage the healthy relationship he has so far enjoyed with Claire.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Morituri on 06 May 2018, 02:08
I wasn't EVEN talking about lasting damage.  I don't think Faye has ever left so much as a bruise on anybody.  She did dent Corpse Witch with a punch, but it would have taken a better-than-average person to resist that temptation.

In fact, and this may just be not having noticed it on my part or not remembering it, I don't recall any other single time one of her "punches" has ever actually landed, on anybody. 

She makes threats, a lot, and that's not cool. But I just don't see her engaging in actual violence except very very seldom and  when very badly provoked.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: awgiedawgie on 06 May 2018, 04:41
For the record, she bruised Marten repeatedly. I think I recall twice he remarked (maybe joking, maybe not) that he thought his arm was broken, and once he thought he might have a concussion. She also put a huge bruise on Hannerelore's arm because she was drunk and didn't know who she was hitting (it was meant for Marten's Dad). She gave Raven a full body flip in retaliation for tickling, and got in a fight with Penny at CoD. And she threw Angus across the barroom just for talking to her. None of those were what I would call "badly provoked".


She beat Clinton up with his own hand once, but he deserved that.


There may be other instances I don't remember right now, but I don't have time to look for them this morning - I'm meeting family for breakfast.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: DaiJB on 06 May 2018, 05:58
...AND she knocked out Marten that time he was being drunk and highly unpleasant - I can't remember the strip, but I can remember the follow-up, where Faye blames his injury on "OWLS"...  :-D

Edit: Found it! Number 1818.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: SpanielBear on 06 May 2018, 06:03
For the record, she bruised Marten repeatedly. I think I recall twice he remarked (maybe joking, maybe not) that he thought his arm was broken, and once he thought he might have a concussion. She also put a huge bruise on Hannerelore's arm because she was drunk and didn't know who she was hitting (it was meant for Marten's Dad). She gave Raven a full body flip in retaliation for tickling, and got in a fight with Penny at CoD. And she threw Angus across the barroom just for talking to her. None of those were what I would call "badly provoked".


She beat Clinton up with his own hand once, but he deserved that.


There may be other instances I don't remember right now, but I don't have time to look for them this morning - I'm meeting family for breakfast.

Question, without going into the morality or nature of those instances (and once you have finished breakfast, naturally), how many were recent and how many were back in the days of cartoon logic applying more (e.g. vespa-avenger, random monks, Scorn being capable of physically hurling a body through space etc.)?

Without excusing abusive behaviour, it does seem that Faye as a character gets caught out by the tone of the comic having shifted over 3000 strips, and that behaviour that at one point, while not exactly acceptable, was not as consequential as it would be now. Pintsize is another example of this (who seems to get a free pass more often than not), as his earlier behaviour might often be seen to step over a line he's now more careful about. But Faye's violence, it is true, still gets bought up in-comic as part of her character, so it's reasonable to consider her in relation to it. How much of her violence is recent?

Again, that's a question I want to ask neutrally- I don't mean to defend her violence, I'm just curious about how it has developed alongside the changing tone of the comic.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: awgiedawgie on 06 May 2018, 13:23
...AND she knocked out Marten that time he was being drunk and highly unpleasant - I can't remember the strip, but I can remember the follow-up, where Faye blames his injury on "OWLS"...  ;D

Edit: Found it! Number 1818.
Good memory. That one had slipped my mind earlier.


Question, without going into the morality or nature of those instances (and once you have finished breakfast, naturally), how many were recent and how many were back in the days of cartoon logic applying more (e.g. vespa-avenger, random monks, Scorn being capable of physically hurling a body through space etc.)?
[...]
Again, that's a question I want to ask neutrally- I don't mean to defend her violence, I'm just curious about how it has developed alongside the changing tone of the comic.
I'll just make a list, but it'll take a little while.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: SpanielBear on 06 May 2018, 14:06
I'll just make a list, but it'll take a little while.

That's really good of you. Just a general idea would be good- my bias is towards the majority being early in the comc's run, but I don't want to make assumptions.

I don't think for a moment that the difference in tone makes the depictions of violence easier to see, but in discussing Faye's underlying character and the extent to which she is a bully rather than a source of slapstick it would be useful.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Mr_Rose on 06 May 2018, 14:24
Yes, as I recall, Faye managed to clear about fifteen feet when she threw Angus across the bar. Assuming he is of normal human build and not made of, say, fluff and helium, that would have to be some kind of world record….
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Tova on 06 May 2018, 15:18
Well, I've finished breakfast.  8-)

I've always viewed Faye's violence, particularly in the early days, as cartoon violence. That is, something to get a laugh out of ala Road Runner and Coyote, not something to wring my hands over.

However, given that you can draw a line of character development all the way from those early comics to the most recent, it's probably more useful to view it more seriously, at least for the sake of discussion.

So if we do that, how do you view Faye (a Mini Poll)?

a) Faye's behaviour has been inexcusable and irredeemable.
b) Faye's behaviour has been terrible, but perhaps forgivable (if not excusable) given her past.
c) Faye's behaviour has been terrible, but she is actively working on improving, and if she succeeds, then she will be (more) likable.
d) Faye's behaviour is just a part of her friendship dynamic, and is not as bad as everyone is making out.
e) A little bit from each of ?, ?, ....
f) Something else (specify).

And how do you feel about Marten's friendship with Faye?

1) Marten should have abandoned her long ago.
2) Marten deserves better, and hopefully things are improving.
3) Marten gets credit for seeing past her bad behaviour - Faye wouldn't be where she is now without him.
4) Marten is fine, they've always had a terrific friendship. And what close friendship hasn't had the odd rocky moment?
5) Something else (specify).

Curious to hear people's thoughts. My own will come later.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: SpanielBear on 06 May 2018, 15:35

(Snip)

So if we do that, how do you view Faye (a Mini Poll)?

a) Faye's behaviour has been inexcusable and irredeemable.
b) Faye's behaviour has been terrible, but perhaps forgivable (if not excusable) given her past.
c) Faye's behaviour has been terrible, but she is actively working on improving, and if she succeeds, then she will be (more) likable.
d) Faye's behaviour is just a part of her friendship dynamic, and is not as bad as everyone is making out.
e) A little bit from each of ?, ?, ....
f) Something else (specify).

And how do you feel about Marten's friendship with Faye?

1) Marten should have abandoned her long ago.
2) Marten deserves better, and hopefully things are improving.
3) Marten gets credit for seeing past her bad behaviour - Faye wouldn't be where she is now without him.
4) Marten is fine, they've always had a terrific friendship. And what close friendship hasn't had the odd rocky moment?
5) Something else (specify).

(/Snip)


The problem with taking all of her actions as character defining is that it leads to dissonance. Because if, without context, someone was described as having done all the things Faye has done, then I'd feel they were a B at the very least- her violence is repetitive, generally remorseless and unprovoked. But that is completely at odds with how she is portrayed outside of that- in most of her appearances we do seem to be expected to see her, narratively, as sympathetic. Similarly Marten, if he were a real-life victim of Faye's abuse owes her nothing and is a firm 2 or even a 1. But again, all their other interactions show a genuine, healthy friendship that we seem to be expected to take as being authentic.

I think Jeph (now) is too good of a story teller and a designer of characters to make a mistake about this; to create a relationship and characters that are fundamentally unrealistic. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, there must be some background reason behind that being the case here. So for me, drawing a distinction between Faye as a character and her extreme violence as slapstick is the only way to resolve the confusion. It's a stylistic choice that has changed as the comic has changed, and the extreme violence is an artefact of that, not a aspect of Faye's "serious" character. That's why knowing a timeline would be useful- can we find a point at which the comic becomes more grounded in terms of characters and consequences, and does Faye's violence continue to be egregious after that point?

And once again, I'm not trying to say that any of this makes violence okay, or that any particular reaction to it is over-sensitive or wrong. What I do want to work out is whether slapstick violence explains (not excuses) Faye's previous actions, or if in fact she should be viewed as a fundamentally violent person, who abuses others and leaves them traumatised.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 06 May 2018, 15:38
I don't think Faye has ever left so much as a bruise on anybody.

There's a strip I don't have the number for where Marten mentions an ice pack in the freezer dedicated to treating injuries from Faye.

The time she knocked Marten unconscious was arguably self-defense although people at the time pointed out that anyone that drunk could have been put on the ground with her little finger.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Tova on 06 May 2018, 15:48
The problem with taking all of her actions as character defining is that it leads to dissonance. Because if, without context, someone was described as having done all the things Faye has done, then I'd feel they were a B at the very least- her violence is repetitive, generally remorseless and unprovoked. But that is completely at odds with how she is portrayed outside of that- in most of her appearances we do seem to be expected to see her, narratively, as sympathetic. Similarly Marten, if he were a real-life victim of Faye's abuse owes her nothing and is a firm 2 or even a 1. But again, all their other interactions show a genuine, healthy friendship that we seem to be expected to take as being authentic.

I think Jeph (now) is too good of a story teller and a designer of characters to make a mistake about this; to create a relationship and characters that are fundamentally unrealistic. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, there must be some background reason behind that being the case here. So for me, drawing a distinction between Faye as a character and her extreme violence as slapstick is the only way to resolve the confusion. It's a stylistic choice that has changed as the comic has changed, and the extreme violence is an artefact of that, not a aspect of Faye's "serious" character.

I tend to agree, but another possible interpretation is that one of the assumptions is not quite true - either the violence wasn't nearly as bad as all that (and perhaps was exaggerated for comedic effect) or the friendship isn't as healthy as we think (I'm disinclined to believe this).

There's a strip I don't have the number for where Marten mentions an ice pack in the freezer dedicated to treating injuries from Faye.

Along the same lines, this could have been simply a joke at Faye's expense.

The time she knocked Marten unconscious was arguably self-defense although people at the time pointed out that anyone that drunk could have been put on the ground with her little finger.

I think she can be forgiven for having neither the presence of mind nor the bravery to just use her little finger and see if that works out okay for her. As far as I am concerned, the end outcome was good, and that's all that matters.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: awgiedawgie on 06 May 2018, 18:32
There's a strip I don't have the number for where Marten mentions an ice pack in the freezer dedicated to treating injuries from Faye.
That was 1681 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1681)


Along the same lines, this could have been simply a joke at Faye's expense.
I'm inclined to think Marten meant it. I'm barely 10% through the archives, and I've already seen Faye punch Marten four times (once he thought his arm was broken, and once he thought he might have a concussion), punched Dora once, knocked out Agent Turing (yeah, that needed to be done to save Pintsize, but still...), and body-flipped Raven. Plus done a fair amount of threatening to several people. So at that point at least, Fayemergencies are a fairly regular occurrence. (There's also stuff with Pintsize and some of his friends, but they deserved it.)


Of course, she has also repeatedly resisted the urge to punch people, and has more than once expressed remorse for how she treats people - most notably Marten and Raven. In my opinion, even in just the first 450 strips, she has made noticeable progress toward being less violent. It's still her first instinct, but she seems to be getting better at controlling it.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: fayelovesbubbles on 06 May 2018, 19:19
Did anyone notice that Bubbles wasn't blushing as much as she kept giving Faye a back rub? It means she was becoming comfortable touching and being close to Faye.

Faye, for the love of all that is holy, don't fuck this up.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 06 May 2018, 19:26
Amen. Bubbles has baggage from hell but a track record of working to overcome it. Bubbles will be loyal to the extent Marten is or even more. Faye, this is a great partner for you.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: fayelovesbubbles on 06 May 2018, 19:40
Me, I'm hoping Faye gives it some thought, goes back into the shop and just kisses the hell out of Bubbles. "Bubs, bend down, I have to tell you a secret..." *smoochhhhh*

Yeah, yeah, I know, not realistic.  :laugh:

Hmm, that reminds me... "closer, let me whisper in your ear, say the words you long to heeeeeeeaaar, I'm in love with you...ooo ooo ooo ooo..."
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 06 May 2018, 19:57
Is it what Bubbles wants to hear? We know she has Feelings but may not be ready to process them. (Is anyone ever really ready?)

I had missed the comment at the bottom at first. "His spine might be wobbly, but it's still a spine".
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 06 May 2018, 20:01
Marten was the best possible choice for one important reason. He grew up in an environment where he was exposed (no pun intended) to just about every possible relationship style. Same-sex human-robot? Faye had to have known he was guaranteed to accept the idea without a blink.

On the eternal abuse side, there's more than one way to take her treatment of Pintsize. What does it mean ethically to hit someone who doesn't feel pain and can have dents just popped out?
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: fayelovesbubbles on 06 May 2018, 20:02
Honestly, yes, I do think it's what she wants to hear.

Faye and Bubbles can process these feelings together.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 06 May 2018, 20:02
Amen. Bubbles has baggage from hell but a track record of working to overcome it. Bubbles will be loyal to the extent Marten is or even more. Faye, this is a great partner for you.

A great partner is all well and good, but you can't rely on another person to fix your problems.

Faye and Bubbles both deserve happiness, but given Faye's track record with relationships and how she deals with major changes in her life (or rather, how she failed to deal with them), kinda leaves me in the camp of "Its going to be one hell of a rocky road" for any Faye and Bubbles relationship.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Tova on 06 May 2018, 20:04
Along the same lines, this could have been simply a joke at Faye's expense.
I'm inclined to think Marten meant it. I'm barely 10% through the archives, and I've already seen Faye punch Marten four times (once he thought his arm was broken, and once he thought he might have a concussion), punched Dora once, knocked out Agent Turing (yeah, that needed to be done to save Pintsize, but still...), and body-flipped Raven. Plus done a fair amount of threatening to several people. So at that point at least, Fayemergencies are a fairly regular occurrence. (There's also stuff with Pintsize and some of his friends, but they deserved it.)

Now I've re-read the comic, I'd agree.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: fayelovesbubbles on 06 May 2018, 20:04
Angus wasn't right for Faye. That's pretty clear. Bubbles is different, very different.

They have a strong bond that can overcome a lot. Think about everything they've been through together. Faye's drinking problem. Bubbles having her memories erased. Arguments, disagreements. And they're still close. I do feel this is a place where Faye can finally feel safe.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: SpanielBear on 06 May 2018, 20:09
On the eternal abuse side, there's more than one way to take her treatment of Pintsize. What does it mean ethically to hit someone who doesn't feel pain and can have dents just popped out?

In general? Depend a lot on the context of the hitting, and how it was taken by the one who is hit. Even if it didn't cause physical damage, it could still be a component of emotional abuse, for example.

(I do not feel able to say whether Faye's treatment of Pintsize falls under abuse or not.)
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Tova on 06 May 2018, 20:11
Thanks to awgiedawgie's link, I've got a comic to add to the guys-getting-punched-for-saying-the-wrong-thing-was-a-running-gag-back-then (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1682) pile.

And it wasn't even Faye doing the punching this time.

It all would have been beyond the pale had the genders been reversed, I guess. Food for thought.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Dandi Andi on 06 May 2018, 20:20
Question, without going into the morality or nature of those instances (and once you have finished breakfast, naturally), how many were recent and how many were back in the days of cartoon logic applying more (e.g. vespa-avenger, random monks, Scorn being capable of physically hurling a body through space etc.)?

Without excusing abusive behaviour, it does seem that Faye as a character gets caught out by the tone of the comic having shifted over 3000 strips, and that behaviour that at one point, while not exactly acceptable, was not as consequential as it would be now. Pintsize is another example of this (who seems to get a free pass more often than not), as his earlier behaviour might often be seen to step over a line he's now more careful about. But Faye's violence, it is true, still gets bought up in-comic as part of her character, so it's reasonable to consider her in relation to it. How much of her violence is recent?

Again, that's a question I want to ask neutrally- I don't mean to defend her violence, I'm just curious about how it has developed alongside the changing tone of the comic.

The problem with answering that question is that there is no unambiguous delineation between the comic's cartoonish "wacky hijinks" and the comic's more serious, grounded tone. While the comic has certainly transitioned from using one tone to the other for many subjects, Jeph always has and continues to use both. We can make distinctions with specific events or subjects, but it is much less clear when looking at the whole text of QC. For example, the Vespavenger or Pintsize having advanced military technology were clearly cartoonish non-reality. Marten and Claire's first night together was clearly a case of Jeph taking trans issues very seriously. Depictions of Faye's violence are, if this conversation is any indication, much more fuzzy.

I think there are some very interesting broader implications present in this conversation. They have come to my mind from a variety of people's comments, so I don't want to direct these as a response to any particular person. But I think they are worth exploring.

1) Should we judge Faye's behavior in the context of the diegetic context of the comic or in the context of the real violence it resembles? Violence in QC is often depicted as being relatively consequence free. If Faye's violence is free of meaningful consequences, should she be judged harshly for it? Or is her violence acceptable within the narrative universe? If we judge her behavior as acceptable in-universe but would be absolutely unacceptable in a realistic environment, is it fair to criticize Jeph for his choice to frame harmful behavior as funny?

I think Dan Olsen of the YouTube channel Folding Ideas has a very interesting take on diegesis and its justification for behavior within a narrative.


2) How does our use of the word "abuse" effect how we talk about Faye's use of violence? I have seen several people not question the facts of Faye's behavior, but rather question whether that behavior rises to the level of "abuse". Sure, she punches people, but she never really hurts anyone. Sure she threatens and intimidates people, but she never cut them off from friends or tried to control their money/transportation/communication etc. The implication seems to be that her behavior never meets the hallmarks of capital-a "Abuse", so we shouldn't judge it as such; like saying that she does bad things, but she's not a monster.

But is that fair? Are we reluctant to call her behavior what it is because we fail to make distinctions of degree and instead see a distinction of kind? Are we possibly trivializing abuse because it failed to meet a specific threshold and is therefore some other thing and therefore is less important?

Let me be clear that I do not think that anybody at all, not even one of us, is treating Faye's behavior like it isn't important or worthy of critique. If we were, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. But it is worth reflecting on whether some of the reluctance to calling Faye's behavior abusive is because we think of abuse as a horrible, monstrous thing (and rightly so), but we don't see Faye as a monster.

We discussed a very similar thing in Discuss! a while back. The subject matter is very sensitive so I will bury the link behind a spoiler bar as well as content warnings.

(click to show/hide)

For what it's worth, I tend to judge Faye's violence in terms of the diegetic framework of the text and assume that it is less impactful than it would be in real life, but that it is not consequence free. I usually read it as a shorthand for Faye being gruff and unpleasant as a defense mechanism for her emotional fragility. I see it as not OK, but I also understand her friends willingness to tolerate it in that context. I am usually more uncomfortable with Jeph's choice to use that violence as a shorthand. And I absolutely do see her violence, threats and intimidation as abuse even with all the horrible baggage that word brings with it.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Cornelius on 06 May 2018, 22:04
On the eternal abuse side, there's more than one way to take her treatment of Pintsize. What does it mean ethically to hit someone who doesn't feel pain and can have dents just popped out?

In general? Depend a lot on the context of the hitting, and how it was taken by the one who is hit. Even if it didn't cause physical damage, it could still be a component of emotional abuse, for example.

(I do not feel able to say whether Faye's treatment of Pintsize falls under abuse or not.)

It might be worth noting that at least one character in comic has suspected it did. But then, when she talked to Pintsize in private to ascertain that, Marigold promptly put a dent in him herself.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Near Lurker on 06 May 2018, 22:29
...AND she knocked out Marten that time he was being drunk and highly unpleasant - I can't remember the strip, but I can remember the follow-up, where Faye blames his injury on "OWLS"...  :-D

Edit: Found it! Number 1818.

That time he assaulted her, though.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 06 May 2018, 23:08
Amen. Bubbles has baggage from hell but a track record of working to overcome it. Bubbles will be loyal to the extent Marten is or even more. Faye, this is a great partner for you.

A great partner is all well and good, but you can't rely on another person to fix your problems.

Faye and Bubbles both deserve happiness, but given Faye's track record with relationships and how she deals with major changes in her life (or rather, how she failed to deal with them), kinda leaves me in the camp of "Its going to be one hell of a rocky road" for any Faye and Bubbles relationship.

Absolutely. I'm in the Faye-For-FSM's-Sake-Don't-Screw-This-Up(-For-Once) camp.

If she can get out of her own way for once this could be the best romantic relationship of her life. I started to say "best relationship" but that slot is filled by her friendship with Marten.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Case on 07 May 2018, 03:17
<snip>
3) It's not perceived to be as threatening, because it's done by a woman, and therefore, according to the SJW enforced gender constructs, can't be threatening.

You know, I think you got the wrong end of the stick here. For example:

Quote
Historical sources and their analysis in academic literature establish that intimate violence has been a cause for concern stemming from at least England’s medieval times. While men-as-perpetrators of violence on wives or female partners could be prosecuted or subject to public exposure, ironically men-as-victims of their wives’ violence were subject to punishment. This punishment took several forms, one of which was a form of public exposure known as a “Skimmington” procession: a public humiliation derived from Charivari rituals widespread in early Europe. The history of Skimmington is reviewed and inferences drawn.

Skimmington Revisited (http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.3149/jms.1002.111)

(Unless "SJWs" invented a time-machine and enforced gender-constructs in medieval England, that is ...  )
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Shjade on 07 May 2018, 12:31
This is a legitimate thing to raise, however; Jeph was a lot less 'woke' for lack of a better term in the early days, and so Faye's early period of physical violence is something that's kind of been retconned a little into the outward expression of someone who's been through abuse. Or Jeph has used that as a Trojan horse to reel people into her story, I don't know. But this comic is the first time I've even seen her violent tendencies mentioned in a little while.

For what it's worth, I always took it as part of her alcoholism and general self-destructive tendencies. Lashing out toward others was part of that whole storm.

Sure, it could be coincidental or plot contrivance that her violent/bullying tendencies have significantly decreased since she stopped drinking, but it would also just plain make sense.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 07 May 2018, 16:53
Now that's an insight!

Here's an aspect I don't think has been brought up yet. One of the many aspects of compatibility for a couple is having similar levels of intelligence.

Faye was earning straight A's in school. Bubbles has erudite speech patterns.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: awgiedawgie on 08 May 2018, 23:37
Question, without going into the morality or nature of those instances (and once you have finished breakfast, naturally), how many were recent and how many were back in the days of cartoon logic applying more (e.g. vespa-avenger, random monks, Scorn being capable of physically hurling a body through space etc.)?
[...]
Again, that's a question I want to ask neutrally- I don't mean to defend her violence, I'm just curious about how it has developed alongside the changing tone of the comic.
I'll just make a list, but it'll take a little while.

That's really good of you. Just a general idea would be good- my bias is towards the majority being early in the comc's run, but I don't want to make assumptions.


I don't think for a moment that the difference in tone makes the depictions of violence easier to see, but in discussing Faye's underlying character and the extent to which she is a bully rather than a source of slapstick it would be useful.
OK, here we go...


I included actual instances of hitting, as well as threats. I also included occasions when she didn't punch someone.
I placed an asterisk next to any of them that I think were justified, or other things that I don't count against her. YMMV


Someone brought up a fair question of whether it's ethical to inflict violence on a robot that doesn't suffer any lasting damage. Granted, all the times she did anything to Pintsize, they were justified, so the question is sort of moot anyway. And he seemed to provoke her intentionally, knowing that she'd pound him.


I'd like to point out that I've never hit anyone out of anger, and I've never hit a partner even in fun - that's just the way I was raised. But there were still a couple of times on the list where I would have done the same thing Faye did.


Although she started loosening up a little even before then, it seems the real turning point was when she finally came out to Marten about her father's death. That was strips #500-509. There have been very few unjustified instances since then. Including both punching and threats, and counting the ones I considered to be justified, there were as many instances in the first 500 strips as there have been in the 3000 strips since then.


Caution: It's kind of a long list with all that on it.
(click to show/hide)
EDIT: Added #1641
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Tova on 08 May 2018, 23:51
That is a mightily impressive list. Well done.

I've got another for you.

* Faye says she punched Sven in the dick after he made a 69 joke. - 1641 (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1641)
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: awgiedawgie on 09 May 2018, 00:12
That is a mightily impressive list. Well done.

I've got another for you.

* Faye says she punched Sven in the dick after he made a 69 joke. - 1641 (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1641)
Somehow I missed getting that one on there. I remember seeing it.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: SpanielBear on 09 May 2018, 20:00
Wow, many thanks Awgiedawgie, that's exactly what I was looking for.

It seems there was a definite change as you point out, between pre and post Talk. That said, it also seems that there are instances that happen off-screen so to speak. But it is good to see that the more "realistic" QC matches a reduction in violence.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Morituri on 09 May 2018, 21:15
Wow.  That ... seems like a different character.  It isn't, of course.  I just plain didn't remember how casually violent she was prior to The Talk.  Since then, it's been far less casual.

A fair number of those, however, were panic reactions.  There are a lot of people who are completely nonviolent meaning they won't choose to do violence - but who will still throw your ass across the room if you surprise them from behind with a tickle attack, before it even registers in their forebrain that they have a choice about it.  That's not where she was, or is - she may react in panic before thinking sometimes, but she's also capable of being violent with full intent.

But for what it's worth,  I think I never had a problem with a violent response to someone who is ass-grabbing or doing a surprise tickle or whatever else - if you invade someone's personal space or violate their bodily dignity without permission, that's as much starting a fight as a punch in the face.  If you treat someone that way you are tacitly accepting whatever violent response you get in self defense and have absolutely no right to expect that you won't suffer immediate pain for it.  So a lot of Faye's early violence simply didn't make any impression on me because I considered it blameless.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: awgiedawgie on 09 May 2018, 22:05
When you consider how she behaved at home toward her sister, and that her mother said she did the same thing to her own brother, it seems that casual brutality was just a way to play around, and was never abusive or malicious. Her mother seemed to think that it might be a bit overboard at times, but that even she was guilty of the same thing ever since she was a child.


I got the impression that in Faye's early days in town, punching was her self-defense mechanism so she didn't have to talk about her feelings. She didn't have to actually admit that her feelings were hurt, or that she was offended, or she was sad... she could just punch you and you'd focus on that instead. Once she finally opened up to Marten, the cork was off the bottle, and it became easier to talk about that and other emotions to anyone else as well. But by that time, she was so used to punching people for anything, that even though she doesn't have to do it now, it is still her first instinct.


True, she also used threats as a form of persuasion, which is a different matter. Then again, I know plenty of people who say something like "don't make me hurt you" when they are trying to get someone to do something, so I don't think much of it. We only actually saw Faye do it twice - once when she told Dora to get into therapy, which I think she might have actually followed through on if Dora hadn't (and I truly believe that may be the only time she would have followed through on it); and once when she told Claire she would beat up Marten if Claire didn't come over, which I think she would not have followed through on. She did imply that she had used threats more often than that, and that she had talked to her therapist about it, but all the other times we saw her threaten people were in response to some provocation.
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: jwhouk on 10 May 2018, 04:54
This is, of course, the reason why Bubbles is the perfect foil - or whatever you'd like to call it - for Faye.

What happens when your coping mechanism no longer works?
Title: Re: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 10 May 2018, 07:26
Unfortunately, the typical human thing is to switch back to a previous coping mechanism. In Faye's case that's alcohol.