THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)

Comic Discussion => QUESTIONABLE CONTENT => Topic started by: jwhouk on 20 Jan 2019, 08:17

Title: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: jwhouk on 20 Jan 2019, 08:17
New week, new poll!
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 20 Jan 2019, 08:40
It doesn't seem likely to me that Arrogant Architeuthis has emerged from the depths to say Get Well Soon to one of the many accident victims who must a priori exist in the world.

Oh my. What's interesting about Roko?

She was trying to develop informants at the fight club to bring down the "big fish" above Corpse Witch. Eminence Grise won't care about normal organized crime, but what if there's a massive conspiracy that enslaves other robots? One that has corrupted law enforcement, as Corpse Witch claimed?

Roko can do things that Spookybot cannot conveniently do, like find activities in the physical world that don't create COMINT trails.

She's motivated to do so and frustrated that she (thinks she) failed with Bubbles. She has relevant skills.

Does Spookybot have Operatives, secret agents with credentials that get them in anywhere? Would Roko take the job, to accomplish what the powers of a police officer did not?
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: BenRG on 20 Jan 2019, 09:25
Being me, I suspect that SpookyBot is collecting favours from certain Synthetics that have caught their attention. The ultimate goal is unknown but, as some may have seen last week, I wonder if they're setting their pieces on their side of a game board of some kind.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: OldGoat on 20 Jan 2019, 10:08

Roko can do things that Spookybot cannot conveniently do, like find activities in the physical world that don't create COMINT trails.

She's motivated to do so and frustrated that she (thinks she) failed with Bubbles. She has relevant skills.

Does Spookybot have Operatives, secret agents with credentials that get them in anywhere? Would Roko take the job, to accomplish what the powers of a police officer did not?
Hmmm....

Spookybot seems to be made for COMINT - they manage to not be able to help but overhear quite a bit, certainly casual conversations between AIs (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3418).  There must be a data link between Station's avatar projector and his host servers on SS-E-CE* - so that's vulnerable to intercept.  I don't think encryption is much of an issue for SB to deal with.  Perhaps they do need some help eavesdropping on meaties.

Roko won't willingly work with/for Spookybot, but the latter is fully capable of manipulating pretty much anyone we've met in the cast in unwittingly helping carry out their designs.  While I do not like SB, I do admire subtlety, and they have that to spare when they want to use it.

*Space Station Ellicott-Chatham Enterprises
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: oddtail on 20 Jan 2019, 10:21
Went with the last option in the poll, because that's the closest it got to "who cares?". I think a super-powerful entity as a character in a work of fiction has a huge potential for making much of what happens meaningless. Either everything can be resolved super-tidy (in a good or bad way) with little effort or drama, or there are arbitrary reason why it doesn't. Either outcome has its huge pitfalls to step around.

I'm not saying amazingly powerful characters can't be a thing. But I don't see how they apply to QC. You could have a character that's just too apathetic to do much (like Dr Manhattan). But that's honestly super-depressing, and works best for deconstructions and very cynical works of fiction. You can scale everything up (like Superman stories), but QC is charming in large part because it's slice-of-life, so almost by definition low-importance, local, low-stakes-in-the-grand-scheme-of-things-stuff. Y'know, normal people problems, just with robots.

You can explore the nature of power and humanity and go all philosophical, but I'm not convinced that works as a side theme of a story.

And as someone pointed out, Spookybot is not dissimilar to Q, but - again, as I think someone mentioned - Q tends to get his comeuppance at least some of the time. He highlights how much potential humanity really does have in the end, which enhances the usual characters in the show and works with ST's themes very well. Spookybot has not given me that vibe, at least not yet.

When I think about what Spookybot might want, I can't think of a single answer that would engage me more than the more mundane goings-on in QC tend to. I don't wanna be a hater, but I have yet to think of a reason Spookybot might work for me. There's plenty of places this character might go, but all that I can think of (the ones I listed and perhaps a few more) just clash with the comic's usual shenanigans. I think I might happily read a Spookybot-centred story *apart* from QC, in the right circumstances. But for QC specifically, I'm afraid it'll steer away from what made it charming for me in the first place.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Gyrre on 20 Jan 2019, 13:48
"How's it going? In exchange for a small...favor, I might be able to help figure out the right tweaks to your new sensorium upgrades."
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Tova on 20 Jan 2019, 13:57
There's no Gordian knot sitting around wanting to be cut right now, so I have no real idea why Spookybot has turned up again, apart from the evident fact that Jeph is fond of them. Maybe it will just be another slice of life.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: shanejayell on 20 Jan 2019, 15:14
Spooky is a super advanced AI in multiple bodies.

They could just be here for their own amusement...
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: A small perverse otter on 20 Jan 2019, 17:08
IIRC, Spookybunch has described themselves as deeply committed to freedom, at least for AIs, yes? Wouldn't Roko's work on AI rights line up exactly their goals?
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: alc40 on 20 Jan 2019, 18:20
I'm not sure that we know enough to say that freedom is a high priority for Spookybot.  It could be, but they described their concern specifically as sanctity of mind (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3392).  Since they said that Corpse Witch violated "one of the very, very few moral principles to which we adhere", they may not care about most of the problems that an AI rights organization would be likely to work on.  Apart from what happened to Bubbles, it seems like the AI rights issues we've seen in the comic have been more about hiring discrimination, treatment of former criminals, etc., which Spookybot might not really care about.  Unless what happened to Bubbles is actually more common than we've seen so far.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: shanejayell on 20 Jan 2019, 19:22
New strip up.

https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3921

"OUT."

 :-D :lol:
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Tova on 20 Jan 2019, 19:43
What a nice visit.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: jmsr on 20 Jan 2019, 19:57
https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3921

This still fits with my lonely guess.  This is the sort of thing a friend would do; come by and see how you're doing after a trauma.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: A small perverse otter on 20 Jan 2019, 20:34
Spookyfolk are such nice entities, aren't they? Such sweethearts...
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 20 Jan 2019, 20:48
This still fits with my lonely guess.  This is the sort of thing a friend would do; come by and see how you're doing after a trauma.

I don't see Spookybot being the kind of entity that would have friends. Rather they would keep an eye on AI that are going through...interesting experiences. Not necessarily the experiences that would make an AI feel more human. I think they're more interested in how an AI reacts. After all, a Human can go through a traumatic experience and you can roughly guess how they might react under certain conditions or to other circumstances. For example, a Human loses an arm, you can expect them to go through depression, angry and eventually acceptance. But what about an AI in a chassis? One damages an arm, they can go to the shop and get it fixed or replaced.

But what about a complete disconnect to a body they've been used to? I mean, seeing what happened to Roko, if that were to happen to a human, they'd be dead. But Roko is in a unique position and Spookybot might be wanting to see how she's coping with it.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Quantum Glass on 20 Jan 2019, 20:57
Wait, Spookybot is speaking in robot speech bubbles. Normally they talk in human speech bubbles.

Maybe Spookybot is using a drone? Or it's an imposter!
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: OldGoat on 20 Jan 2019, 21:29
Spookyfolk are such nice entities, aren't they? Such sweethearts...
Well, they certainly think so.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: BenRG on 20 Jan 2019, 23:19
This is a very 'Q'-style monologue from SpookyBot. Basically, it's difficult to tell if they're sincere or if they're mocking Roko via sarcastic compliments (definitely the bit about the $20k for a butt emblem). It's the sort of thing one would expect from an advanced mind that doesn't really think in the same way as we spatially-concentrated minds do.

However, I've got a genuine feeling that this is a 'minimum energy intervention'. SpookyBot seems to know Roko well enough that the simple pressure of their simple presence will trigger something. The question is: What?
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: brasca on 21 Jan 2019, 02:41
That was a little anticlimactic.  I expected a visit from Spookybot, but thought they’d have something profound or cryptic to say.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: jesslc on 21 Jan 2019, 06:45
Maybe they have a crush on Roko?  :claireface:  :claireface:  :claireface:
:roll:

I still like the lonely hypothesis too. Maybe it's just other stuff I'm reading recently but in both this comic and the "legging buddies" comic, they remind me of someone trying to make friends but not really knowing how to do that. As to why a super powerful eldritch AI would want friends... I have no idea but maybe it's just an innate part of being intelligent. Most (all?) of the AIs in the comic have shown a desire for it, even Station missed Hannelore when she moved down to Earth.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: OldGoat on 21 Jan 2019, 10:33
That was a little anticlimactic.  I expected a visit from Spookybot, but thought they’d have something profound or cryptic to say.
It's only Monday, Brasca.  I'll be surprised if Spooky leaves without another word or seven.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 21 Jan 2019, 10:48
That was a little anticlimactic.  I expected a visit from Spookybot, but thought they’d have something profound or cryptic to say.
It's only Monday, Brasca.  I'll be surprised if Spooky leaves without another word or seven.

I think Brasca means that the post-weekend cliffhanger reveal didn't do much.

I mean, Spookybot appears in the last panel of a Friday strip! That's big! That's dynamite! That's.....Sppokybot being glib and being the thing that would not leave (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheThingThatWouldNotLeave). For a weekend of build up, it just feels...a little flat.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Sullivan on 21 Jan 2019, 11:45
Spookybot: "We stopped by to say we're glad you're all right."

Couldn't they have sent a text? Maybe flowers? Or bread...
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Inconsequential on 21 Jan 2019, 12:07
I predict two weeks of sleepy snark ping-pong culminating in a fart joke involving Roko's upgraded derriere.  :roll:



Anyhoo, it's interesting to me to see how many (here and in the QC-verse) are automatically suspicious of Spookybot. SB is obviously being annoyingly smug, and they're obviously up to something, but... it doesn't necessarily mean they're up to no good.

What if they're up to something good? Possibly great good?



As May observes in 3089:
"I know we're all sentient robots and it's the Singularity and shit, but we ain't in infinite-resource la-la land yet. It's still rough out there, and people gotta do what they can to get by."
https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3089

Clearly, there's work to do.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Tova on 21 Jan 2019, 13:35
That was a little anticlimactic.  I expected a visit from Spookybot, but thought they’d have something profound or cryptic to say.
It's only Monday, Brasca.  I'll be surprised if Spooky leaves without another word or seven.

I won't.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 21 Jan 2019, 13:59
Power tends to corrupt. We don't know that Eminence Grise is up to no good, but we know they have immense power and very few ethical principles. Dangerous combination that.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: David F on 21 Jan 2019, 14:24
Power tends to corrupt. We don't know that Eminence Grise is up to no good, but we know they have immense power and very few ethical principles. Dangerous combination that.

How powerful are Spookybots, really?  Their only demonstrated abilities are a zero-day exploit for commercially available encryption, and some sort of neural exploit that can partially or fully disable a human for a short span of time.  Yes, Bubbles did seem to think that networked AIs would provide exponential intelligence growth, but super-fast computing doesn't equal omnipotence or even omniscience.

(Okay, there's also some ability to hack a normal-tier AI's sensorium used to talk to Bubbles and torture Corpse Witch.  I suspect that's kin to the encryption hack.)
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 21 Jan 2019, 16:05
They said there was no possible evidence of good faith that they couldn't fake (3402). Station, with orbital railguns, they called "less puissant". Could be a bluff for all we know but Bubbles knew about their existence and didn't contradict their claims.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 21 Jan 2019, 19:07
Roko's butt emblem has eaten Spookybot.

So why are we even talking about this?
(Basically I am in full agreement with Oddtail.)


Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 21 Jan 2019, 20:01
So what we're getting from this strip (new one up), is that Roko wants to skip the hard part and Spookybot is hanging the carrot in front of her, again. Right?
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: specter177 on 21 Jan 2019, 20:05
So what we're getting from this strip (new one up), is that Roko wants to skip the hard part and Spookybot is hanging the carrot in front of her, again. Right?

Sounds more like she just wants to make sure there's a plan B if she fails in adapting.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Case on 21 Jan 2019, 20:10
So what we're getting from this strip (new one up), is that Roko wants to skip the hard part and Spookybot is hanging the carrot in front of her, again. Right?

Yup, looks like. Also, that they have toes in their Spookyboots.

Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Case on 21 Jan 2019, 20:11
So what we're getting from this strip (new one up), is that Roko wants to skip the hard part and Spookybot is hanging the carrot in front of her, again. Right?

'Again'?  :psyduck:
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 21 Jan 2019, 20:19
Long ago, Jeph said AIs in his world could change personality with software patches. He didn't say where those would come from but it wouldn't be my first guess that only a hyper-powerful Archteuthis could install one.

I'm also still curious about why Spookybot is on the scene. When they intervened for Bubbles, they said they usually don't get involved in anything so "trivial" as an AI getting mind-raped and enslaved. Not that I know what Roko is going through, but it's closer to having your car totaled than it is to slavery. Why would SB be interested?
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 21 Jan 2019, 20:20
So what we're getting from this strip (new one up), is that Roko wants to skip the hard part and Spookybot is hanging the carrot in front of her, again. Right?

'Again'?  :psyduck:

CorpseWitch case, where Spooky gave Roko everything to make a case against the fight club, unless I’ve misremembered the story.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Tova on 21 Jan 2019, 20:37
I had assumed that Spooky would not be able to help in this situation. I guess I thought wrong.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Penquin47 on 21 Jan 2019, 20:45
It's possible they can't, which is why they suddenly remembered their pedicure - they don't want to admit to there being nothing they can do.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: zisraelsen on 21 Jan 2019, 20:46
Or they dont want to. We know that "sanctity of mind" is  one of their very few ideals,  (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3392) so i dont think they'd be particularly enthusiastic about modifying an AI's mind apropos of nothing.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Tova on 21 Jan 2019, 20:56
I agree that's much more likely.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Skewbrow on 21 Jan 2019, 21:08
^This. The sanctity of mind -principle will provide an excuse not to enter Roko's mind and, with surgical precision, remove whatever stops her from fully integrating with the new body. May be the process would still entail a risk? Or, the success would be uncertain? Not unlike what happened when Corpse Witch tried to "treat" Bubbles? After all, it is not impossible that CW genuinely  thought she could do it? She simply overestimated her ability (something a doctor should not do), and afterwards failed to own her mistake and decided to abuse the situation to get leverage on Bubbles (compounding to the offense, and then squaring it).

Of course, Spookybot could just explain all this to Roko instead of being an ass. But, that's how they roll.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Tova on 21 Jan 2019, 21:39
That is indeed how they roll, but now that this topic has come up, it is entirely possible that they will explain this (or some alternative reasoning to do with "limits the like of us would not understand") in #3923. So the exposition on this topic I originally expected may come after all.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: gprimr1 on 21 Jan 2019, 21:44
I believe they can help, but they are smart. While their true motives remain a mystery, their encounter with Bubbles tells me that they may operate from a "We will help you, but we won't do all the work for you" kind of mentality. While they decrypted the locked partition in her memory (and maybe did some shady stuff who knows) they did not alter her programming to erase the memory of the memory or anything. In other words, they helped her, but she still had to do the work of coming to terms with it.

If they say "Yes" to Roko now, then can they really be sure Roko will give 100% in trying to handle this on her own? Or will she phone it in knowing there is an easy way out?
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: calisthymia on 21 Jan 2019, 22:44
Long-time lurker here, registered just to say this: it really doesn't require anything other than the "sanctity of mind" principle for Spookybot to find the idea of "fixing" Roko's mind quite offensive. I believe that the comic is referring to an old dilemma commonly discussed by trans people: "if your mind and body don't match, is it more ethical to change the mind or the body?" According to my own observations, a large majority of people (who are facing that dilemma themselves) are of the opinion that it is more ethical to change the body, because if you change the mind in such a way that it becomes congruent with the body then that mind isn't you any more, and that is fundamentally abhorrent.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Tova on 21 Jan 2019, 22:46
Welcome, new person! That's an interesting perspective. It seems plausible that's what Jeph is going for. It's the first analysis of the current storyline that has seemed so.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: A small perverse otter on 21 Jan 2019, 23:14
Long-time lurker here, registered just to say this: it really doesn't require anything other than the "sanctity of mind" principle for Spookybot to find the idea of "fixing" Roko's mind quite offensive. I believe that the comic is referring to an old dilemma commonly discussed by trans people: "if your mind and body don't match, is it more ethical to change the mind or the body?" According to my own observations, a large majority of people (who are facing that dilemma themselves) are of the opinion that it is more ethical to change the body, because if you change the mind in such a way that it becomes congruent with the body then that mind isn't you any more, and that is fundamentally abhorrent.
I'm pretty sure that this is right -- Jeph has already generated the call out where somebody asks about someone's genitalia without permission, so I'm thinking that this is going to play with dysphoria.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: BenRG on 21 Jan 2019, 23:22
SpookyBot is hard to read but something about panel 3 and 4 suggests that Roko has tripped over a red line of some sort. Certainly the 'K thx bai' moment in panel 4 makes me think that either Roko has signed her name in blood on a contract that she never knew was there or SpookyBot suddenly wants out of there.

Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Cornelius on 21 Jan 2019, 23:32
I think it's more they want out of there, especially with their question in panel one. This is a discussion they don't want to have. A bit like asking your friend in IT to fix your computer, really.

Anyway, it all depends on SB's motivation to keep showing up around Roko in the first place. If it's just concern or loneliness, then they just want out before taking on or refusing more than is perhaps healthy for the kind of relationship they want. If there's an ulterior motive, making Roko more eager for their intervention by withholding it now, makes sense.

Or well, the posts above make good points.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Case on 22 Jan 2019, 01:27
I think they have very smartly given Roko what she had asked for: You see, they haven't said 'No' ... and Roko will remember that later.

In my headcannon, Roko wasn't looking for an easy way out so much as for a bulwark against her burgeoning irrational fear (there's really no reason to assume she will never integrate with her new body just yet). She's regressing a wee bit - it's the 'child' asking the parent "Will everything be alright?".

Spookybutts is the one known entity that is actually as powerful as a child imagines its parent to be - if they said 'yes', it would be unlike one adult reassuring an adult friend (where 'everything will be alright' means 'You and I will do everything we can to make it so, and I'll be there for you'), they'd be referring to an actual possibility.

Leaving like this means they leave Roko's 'hope-thought' alive on the one hand, without allowing her to regress further on the other.

(This is very much Case's OCD-think from early therapy, don't know if it makes sense ...)
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: brasca on 22 Jan 2019, 02:15
While I understand the trauma of Roko losing her body I don’t understand the discomfort.  Neither Momo or Winslow went through this after they upgraded. 
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Tova on 22 Jan 2019, 02:17
They don't have the unusually high level of integration, I guess. They wouldn't faint at the sight of a disconnected foot, either.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: BenRG on 22 Jan 2019, 02:23
While I understand the trauma of Roko losing her body I don’t understand the discomfort.  Neither Momo or Winslow went through this after they upgraded.

The issue is what Bubbles referred to as 'integration'. Some AIs become so 'used' to their bodies, their appearance, their responses and their sensory inputs that they develop the sense of 'this is me' that we fleshy types naturally have for our bodies. Because of this, they develop a dependence on the specific responses from that specific chassis to maintain a sense of self and well-being. Although Roko's new chassis is probably better than 80% identical to her old one, there is still enough differences in inputs and responses that she feels wrong (she's described it as 'moving a puppet').

IRL, we see similar psychological in patients who have suffered traumatic amputations or required significant reconstructive surgery. The most well-known dysphoric response, at least in terms of recent public awareness, is that of transgender people but Roko's sense that she has 'the wrong body' is several orders of magnitude more extreme than the typical case. In humans, similar issues have led to self-mutilation and even suicide.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Cornelius on 22 Jan 2019, 03:34
There's also the point that both Momo and Winslow chose to go to another chassis. Roko didn't have any choice in moving on to another chassis, as hers was totaled.

For Momo and Winslow, I think of the change in terms of growing up. There's a sense of progression, that's no more traumatic than growing up.
For Roko, it's recovery. She'd have preferred to go back, but it isn't possible.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: JimC on 22 Jan 2019, 04:36
So, AI pedicure... Why would it be about toenails? More to a high end pedicure than that I believe. How about a full maintenance check, overhaul and servicing for what must be a fairly high maintenance bit of the robot body?
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: traroth on 22 Jan 2019, 05:43
What would have happened if Roko would have been able to get the exact same chassis?
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: BenRG on 22 Jan 2019, 05:46
That's when we'd get to the psychosomatic part of it: She'd still know it wasn't 'her body'.

This is probably why we're going to be seeing a lot more of Lemon in the next few weeks. It's more than physiological, this is a psychological issue too. Specialised care and help is almost certainly needed.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 22 Jan 2019, 06:10
Long-time lurker here, registered just to say this: it really doesn't require anything other than the "sanctity of mind" principle for Spookybot to find the idea of "fixing" Roko's mind quite offensive. I believe that the comic is referring to an old dilemma commonly discussed by trans people: "if your mind and body don't match, is it more ethical to change the mind or the body?" According to my own observations, a large majority of people (who are facing that dilemma themselves) are of the opinion that it is more ethical to change the body, because if you change the mind in such a way that it becomes congruent with the body then that mind isn't you any more, and that is fundamentally abhorrent.

Welcome, interesting new person!

Indeed, in a previous conversation here about AIs getting patched (it may have been about installing impulse control for May but I'm not sure), the person who flagged the ethical issues of psychic integrity was one of our trans* members.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Inconsequential on 22 Jan 2019, 07:35
I doubt that Spookybot is capable of the subtle level of work that would be involved in solving Roko's problem.

Their intervention in Bubbles' case was relatively crude. Decrypt a certain block of memory, deal with whatever trap a lesser mind had installed, and, well, the rest (such as dealing with the trauma of the full memories, if they had been preserved) would be up to Bubbles. A technical problem, not a psychological one.

Roko also hasn't even given herself a proper chance to begin healing using the tools she has.

Lemon asked her to sleep on it and let her subroutines process, but Roko wanted to get back into the real ASAP.

And even though it's brand-new and only an hour or two old, it looks like Roko's own new body is signalling pretty hard that her mind is exhausted - she needs to sleep and let the trauma and stress process through her "subconscious".

And yes, I just love the concept that AIs need to sleep. It makes a lot of sense that sentience somehow requires a subconscious and periods of rest. QC-verse AIs seem to be able to postpone or move their sleep periods around (May can work different shifts), and can quickly switch states (Bubbles can "wake up" almost instantly if there's a threat.), but ultimately they need to rest at some point.

Perhaps higher-level AIs like Station and Spookybot can put different sections of their minds into sleep mode and rotate through. Dunno, but it's interesting to think about.

Anyway, hopefully Roko can stop panicking, plug in, and conk out for a while.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: brasca on 22 Jan 2019, 07:59
There's also the point that both Momo and Winslow chose to go to another chassis. Roko didn't have any choice in moving on to another chassis, as hers was totaled.

For Momo and Winslow, I think of the change in terms of growing up. There's a sense of progression, that's no more traumatic than growing up.
For Roko, it's recovery. She'd have preferred to go back, but it isn't possible.

Perhaps it would be for the best for May to avoid Roko.  I doubt she’d be very sympathetic and would be wishing she was the one Crushbot fell on top of.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Skewbrow on 22 Jan 2019, 08:19
Have Roko and Claire met, yet? If Roko is, indeed, suffering from some dysphoria directed at her own body, then may be Claire can relate to Roko's suffering? Lend an understanding ear, possibly even offer some suggestions? I confess that I am unable to judge whether comparing their two dysphoria cases is at all meaningful.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: rtmq0227 on 22 Jan 2019, 09:17
Instead of thinking about the use of the term "Pedicure" literally here, my take is that this is another facet of AI's coding "human" to work around the uncanny valley (similar to Bubbles' comments about why AI read physical books).  There were comments earlier regarding how complex an AI chassis' foot must be, and the amount of care/maintenance that goes into them (just think about how any routine maintenance tasks are performed on your car's wheels: brakes, tires, air pressure, alignment, etc).  I imagine it would be quite jarring for someone who is starting to consider AI to just be people to hear them talk about going in for their 5000 mile foot maintenance appointment.  Euphemisms seem to be an AI's best weapon against humans thinking of them as "things."

Also, I would love it if this was a clever euphemism not just for the type of work being done in said appointment, but turns out to be a hint that SB is planning on dropping in on Union Robotics.  If that's the case, I can't decide whether I would enjoy it more for it to just be a surprise to the UR ladies, or for Faye to find out Bubbles has been doing these "Pedicures" for SB all along, and that she's been secretly saving the money in case they need it.  It might be interesting for Bubbles to have a secret, kept for diplomatic reasons, and for Faye to have to process that.  Perhaps it will help challenge some of her...problematic...perspectives towards AI.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 22 Jan 2019, 09:33
Have Roko and Claire met, yet? If Roko is, indeed, suffering from some dysphoria directed at her own body, then may be Claire can relate to Roko's suffering? Lend an understanding ear, possibly even offer some suggestions? I confess that I am unable to judge whether comparing their two dysphoria cases is at all meaningful.

It could possibly work. I mean, she is probably more aware of the feeling compared to anyone else in the comic, but there would certainly be a limitation to it. Claire has been transitioning for several years and presumably been going to a therapist as well to help her process the emotion, but at the same time, Claire has modified her body to a point where the real her is finally free, but that's just it, her body is still hers. Roko's had to implanted into a whole new body. That could be an entirely different problem.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: OldGoat on 22 Jan 2019, 14:45
I'm in the Dangling Carrot camp.  The pedicure line is the equivalent of a bald person saying, "I can't go out tonight, I have to wash my hair." 

Spooky is manipulative and knew full well Roko's question was coming.   They also know the hook is set.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: A small perverse otter on 22 Jan 2019, 15:13
I don't think Spookybot will agree -- sanctity of mind is one of the few principles to which they adhere, and that kind of mind control would violate even the loosest interpretation of violation of the sanctity of mind.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 22 Jan 2019, 15:51
Bear in mind that sanctity of mind referred to Bubbles' state due to CorpseWitch messing up the procedure to clear those memories. Which was based more on CW's absolute incompetence in that situation. Its like going to a back-alley doctor for medication and nearly dying because the doctor fucked up.

Remember, Spookybot isn't CorpseWitch. This is an entity that has access to technology that seem like magic, they are a walking example of Clarke's Third Law.

Roko's and Bubbles' respective situations are both completely different. Bubbles wanted to remove the painful memories because she couldn't deal with them. Roko is afraid that her mind is going to be forever trapped in an alien body. One wanted to run from the pain and lost everything. The other is afraid that she will never get back to herself.

Now, SpookyBot doesn't just show up to say hi, they don't come up to make sure that Roko is settling in okay. They are a trickster mentor of a kind. But they're a bit of an ass doing it.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: A small perverse otter on 22 Jan 2019, 16:05
Bear in mind that sanctity of mind referred to Bubbles' state due to CorpseWitch messing up the procedure to clear those memories. Which was based more on CW's absolute incompetence in that situation.
I think that this is the key point of debate here. I view the direct modification of anything about a mind to conform to its body as a violation of the sanctity of that mind, no matter what the motivation is. It's changing a person in a way that changing a body is not, and the spectrum of unintended consequences is horrifying. If Roko's true difficulty lies in the change of body, then there's a possible solution: find an older model and switch over to it or modify the current one so that she doesn't feel out of place in it.

Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 22 Jan 2019, 16:11
Swapping the model doesn't seem like it would work now matter what.

The problem is that Roko feels a disconnect between her mind and the new body. Her old body was irreparable damaged and her core placed into a new one without any time to adjust mentally. She has suffered a traumatic event and hasn't processed it. Putting her into an older model would just reinforce that feeling of a disconnect.

No, this isn't a problem that can be solved with a swap. Roko needs someone to make the effort to connect with her and to reassure her.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Shremedy on 22 Jan 2019, 16:16
What would have happened if Roko would have been able to get the exact same chassis?
Due to manufacturing quirks, no two of anything are ever precisely alike.  At the level that we are aware of, 8 Gig of RAM with a given bus speed is interchangeable with any other 8GB.  At her level, there's a particular bank she likes to use because the crystal lattices of the P/N junctions lined up optimally, and another bank she avoids putting anything crucial in because it has trace impurities at the molecular level that slow it down.  These are just arbitrary examples, I'm not claiming they're canon in any way.  Maybe there are banks of RAM with these same properties, in her new body, but she doesn't know where they are.  All she knows now is, they ain't where they used to be!  I really wish somebody -- maybe a human amputee -- would just say to her "Give it time.  Your mind will learn how the new body works, and adjust itself accordingly".  Basically, Roko's entire body could be considered a newly-attached prosthetic.

The other thing Roko needs to hear is "Deals with the Devil should always be a LAST resort, not a FIRST!"
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 22 Jan 2019, 16:41
No, Roko, no!
Don't invite a being with unknown powers and purpose to mess with your mind!
Don't forget we have only Spookybot's word about this 'sanctity of mind' bit tHey claim to value.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 22 Jan 2019, 18:09
I wonder if this is anything like getting a new pair of eyeglasses and having everything look indescribably different for a while.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: War Sparrow on 22 Jan 2019, 20:04
Everyone who said  or thought "freinds" option gets internet points.
Below is a celebratory image that seems kinda big, so I spoilered it in case.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: ChaosWolf on 22 Jan 2019, 20:43
With Spooky making a reappearance, I find myself once again struggling with trying to fit a mental "voice" to her(their?) lines...

How do you guys imagine SB sounds like?
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: jesslc on 22 Jan 2019, 21:26
Everyone who said  or thought "freinds" option gets internet points.
Below is a celebratory image that seems kinda big, so I spoilered it in case.
(click to show/hide)

Woo! Internet points!  :laugh:

Thanks for my part but I do believe jmsr deserves the greater share as I likely wouldn't have started seeing the parallels between Spookybot and someone not knowing how to make friends without jmsr's loneliness theory.

---

Today's comic made me laugh. You know, when I suggested earlier that maybe Spookybot has a crush, that was very much a joke prediction... but now... ["Claireface" intensifies*]

"You said it, not us" could just be Spookybot not willing to admit that they want to be friends but it could be a way of hiding that they want something more with Roko without having to tell an outright lie (lying by omission instead). I feel like Jeph's comment about their lack of blush supports either possibility.

* Since I already put 3 :claireface: last time when I was mostly joking, I don't know whether to just put one (to indicate greater seriousness) or to put a whole row of them. Words it is, then!  :-)
 

@ChaosWolf
It's their lines (not her).
Personally I don't tend to hear a particular voice for any of the characters so others will have to answer that part.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: MrNumbers on 22 Jan 2019, 21:39
Spookybot's existence has weird implications for the setting that I'm not sure I like being explicit and smacking into the coffeeshop AU vibe story.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: jmsr on 22 Jan 2019, 22:42
Everyone who said  or thought "freinds" option gets internet points.
Below is a celebratory image that seems kinda big, so I spoilered it in case.
(click to show/hide)

Woo! Internet points!  :laugh:

Thanks for my part but I do believe jmsr deserves the greater share as I likely wouldn't have started seeing the parallels between Spookybot and someone not knowing how to make friends without jmsr's loneliness theory.

---

Today's comic made me laugh. You know, when I suggested earlier that maybe Spookybot has a crush, that was very much a joke prediction... but now... ["Claireface" intensifies*]

"You said it, not us" could just be Spookybot not willing to admit that they want to be friends but it could be a way of hiding that they want something more with Roko without having to tell an outright lie (lying by omission instead). I feel like Jeph's comment about their lack of blush supports either possibility.

* Since I already put 3 :claireface: last time when I was mostly joking, I don't know whether to just put one (to indicate greater seriousness) or to put a whole row of them. Words it is, then!  :-)
 

@ChaosWolf
It's their lines (not her).
Personally I don't tend to hear a particular voice for any of the characters so others will have to answer that part.

Lol, thanks.  I still wanna shout CALLED IT though. :-D

Also: just LOOK AT THEIR FACE in panel three. ( https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3923 )
That face has seen some shit.  That face has done some shit. 

I bet Spookybot was a government or corporate AI used for extremely illegal and unethical/harmful work.  Their programming was also probably frequently edited to force compliance with whatever their owners wanted them to do.  This would explain why they understand the 'sanctity of mind' ethical principle since they've been on the shit end of that stick.  As the saying goes, you don't really care about the abuse of others until it's your ox getting gored too.

Futher: Spookybot can't even look at Roko while talking about this stuff.  They're being vulnerable and opening up.  And thus far i only see the 'personal jabs' everyone's complaining about as a basic defense mechanism to minimize such vulnerablity on some occasions, good natured friendly banter amongst friends on other occasions.  The fact that they're getting it wrong sometimes just highlight how sheltered and inexperienced with this stuff Spookybot is.

BTW, i don't mind the focus on the AIs in the comic.  As far as i'm concerned, they're people in the universe too and just as much a part of the group of friends as the humans.  I'll keep reading as long as i enjoy it.

jmsr
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: BenRG on 22 Jan 2019, 23:28
So, I was wrong. This isn't a psychological play after all. What we're seeing here, as shocking as it is, is a reuse of some of the concepts surrounding Discord's relationship with Fluttershy in My Little Pony - Friendship is Magic.

Bear with me here as I explain this seemingly-bizarre reference: You have a being of unquantifiable power who, previously, has demonstrated a borderline-psychopathic disregard for anything other than their own agenda and amusement and who clearly views all other forms of life as unworthy of respect. Then along comes an inferior being whose approach to them is totally different; who treats them as if they were a person doing these things than some incomprehensible higher power. Someone who even trusts them enough to ask for help in their final extremis. Maybe this is the one who can teach them to be... a person rather than a power given physical form?

Spookybot is less extreme in their alienation from all other minds than Discord was in season 4 of MLP: FiM but I still think that we're going to be walking the same path here: Roko teaching Spookybot the value and the perceptions of smaller beings; teaching them to understand the role of the individual pieces except as part of the grander puzzle. Maybe, in the process, Roko will learn to treat Spookybot as a very real being with likes, dislikes, needs and perspectives rather than the frighteningly-remote god-AI.

Perhaps someone can tell me: In panel 5, is Jeph basically drawing a parallel to asexuals' view of sex?
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: ZoeB on 23 Jan 2019, 00:19
Spookybot needs help. Peer review. How would she go about recruiting an ethics review panel?
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: traroth on 23 Jan 2019, 00:52
Spookybot's existence has weird implications for the setting that I'm not sure I like being explicit and smacking into the coffeeshop AU vibe story.

I couldn't agree more. Spookybot themselves is an interesting character, but I'm not sure (that's an understatement) they are actually suited for the QC universe. They look like a character who didn't find their way to the Alice Grove universe...

The fact that such a character exists, and the consequences that could (and should, if logic prevails) happen, would change the comic to the point it couldn't be recognized.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Case on 23 Jan 2019, 01:11
Spookybot needs help. Peer review. How would she go about recruiting an ethics review panel?

Fingersnapping it into existence?  :-D
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: OldGoat on 23 Jan 2019, 01:14
Now, SpookyBot doesn't just show up to say hi, they don't come up to make sure that Roko is settling in okay. They are a trickster mentor of a kind. But they're a bit of an ass doing it.
Yup.  If Spooky is a demigod, they're more like Loki than other more conventional deities.  However, they've shown no inclination to desire worship of any sort.

It occurs to me, only Bubble had an idea of what Spookybot is, but didn't know about the who in spite of there being at least, what, seven? apparently identical copies of the same chassis living somewhere in humanspace quarters, presumably near-by.  Spooky does not regularly go among humans and 'bots.  If they did rumors would have reached Roko by the nature of her work.  The personality/intellect presumably existed running alongside other AIs' core programs across a world of systems before it ever felt the need to download into and animate a platoon of identical androgynous|asexual bodies.  Were all of these activated in order to pull off the illusion of being in multiple places at once?

Meh - it's 1:00 AM here on the Left Coast of the US and I'm too sleepy to speculate on the intersection of theology and cybernetics.  Maybe tomorrow.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: oddtail on 23 Jan 2019, 02:08
As usual, I have nothing insightful or smart to say about the comic. Hi!

All I'm gonna say is, based on the comment under the comic. I *love* a world where a technology had to be developed for something called "blush panels" for artificial bodies.

This is the future world I want to live in.

That's all from me. Next time, I'll be back to my usual weaksauce bitching about something, probably.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 23 Jan 2019, 03:11

Hmmm...

I can't say I remotely expected Spookybot to become Tsunderbot.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: jwhouk on 23 Jan 2019, 04:06
With Spooky making a reappearance, I find myself once again struggling with trying to fit a mental "voice" to her(their?) lines...

How do you guys imagine SB sounds like?

John deLancie, of course.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Welu on 23 Jan 2019, 05:32
With Spooky making a reappearance, I find myself once again struggling with trying to fit a mental "voice" to her(their?) lines...

Their.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Neko_Ali on 23 Jan 2019, 06:34
Spookybot needs help. Peer review. How would she go about recruiting an ethics review panel?

Fingersnapping it into existence?  :-D

I think this is part of Spooky's problem. They are lacking in peers. We the readers are aware that Spooky is a distributed consciousness across several, likely many bodies. Those in the comic might think Spooky's use of the phrase 'we' when referring to themselves like the royal 'we', thinking it a superiority complex issue. But when Spooky says 'this is something we struggle with, something we question' they really literally mean they have discussions about it. It makes me wonder if the various iterations of Spooky might not be slightly different in personality, of if this is an externalized version of people's internal thought process.

We know that Spooky keeps several bodies going even when they don't need to. And they keep dogs. This kind of strikes me that they are kind of lonely. Even someone like Station is so far beneath them in capability that they can be entirely dismissive of him. And I think that Station is the most powerful semi-embodied AI that we've seen outside of Spooky. We've heard talk about much more computationally powerful AI, but they don't bother with human interaction all that much and are just off doing their super computer thing. Spooky on the other hand seems to be on that level, but distributed over many different chassis. And they don't need to be. Since they rarely interact with humans it seems, there is no reason to have a dozen or more bodies... but they do.

I do think comparison's to Q are pretty on the nose. Consider his fascination with humans in general and Picard in particular. Q has god-like power but finds these mere mortals to be interesting. And in his own particular way he's friendly with them. Spooky I think is experiencing similar feelings and desires. They were originally drawn into this circle on finding out what happened to Bubbles and the offense it caused to their reverence over the sanctity of the mind. I don't remember if it ever was said how Spooky found out about it.... but I suspect Roko suspecting Corpsewitch of AI rights violations was a link in that chain.

After that I believe that Spooky became interested in the lives of the AI around this situation. I think that they found something of kindred spirits in Bubbles and Roko. That they might share some principles, and that Spooky has taken a Q like interest in their lives, as opposed to how they think of other AI and humans. But they kept their distance and just observed. As pointed out in today's comic, Spooky's been rooting around in Bubble's mind before and that leads to an awkwardness that keeps them from getting close to her, though they are obviously still watching.

They seem something in Roko though. And have enough affection and desire for contact with her that they came by to visit as soon as Roko was alone. The timing was not a coincidence. I think that Spooky has been concerned with the well being of Roko since the accident. But they also do not interact with or want to be seen by many people. And even worse, Bubbles and Faye know what Spooky looks like and what they are, so stopping by the body shop would have definitely tipped their hand. Similarly while Roko's mind was loaded into the server rack it was probably monitored 24/7... Visting her in white space probably would have been noticed. So they waited until the first time Roko was alone to show up.

I think the interest in watching Roko and low-key interest in friendship has been floating around in Spooky's processes for a while. But nothing ever came about because they had all the time in the world... Until they almost didn't. Until Roko almost died from having her mind crushed. Remember that it was said that the extra reinforcement she got as a police officer was what saved her central processor from being crushed. I think that is what spurred Spooky into making contact with Roko directly and awkwardly trying to offer comfort. Spooky wants that personal connection, yet for all their capabilities this is something they are not great at. It's actually kind of endearing to me.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: shanejayell on 23 Jan 2019, 06:56
Awww. Tsunderbot.  :-D
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Neko_Ali on 23 Jan 2019, 06:58
Sorry for a second post, but I've been stewing on my thoughts about the current story line for a while now. I already published a book about Spooky, now for my thoughts on Roko.... I am getting some very strong parallels with Roko's situation to the experience being transgender, though not nearly exact. Both are still about a detachment with what the mind is expecting and the body feedback is. Obviously with trans people one of the biggest issues is that our bodies do not match up with what our minds tell us they should be. The same with Roko though in her case it's a matter that they had to get an entirely new body. Something that's not an issue for many AI, but is for her. That difference in experience and the isolation those feelings bring also are very much a part of the trans experience. It's incredibly difficult to describe what being trans feels like to a cisgender person. There are nuances and feelings that are just impossible to put into words accurately. But other trans people usually get it. Every person's experience is different of course, but there is some fundamental levels of feeling that just don't cross over between trans and cis people and their experiences. And I am 100% feeling those differences from Roko currently.

Roko I think has a slight advantage over the fact that there was an event that can clearly be pointed at as causing this feeling. Trans people often struggle internally with understanding their feelings at first and externally as people try to push back against those feelings to get them to conform. People know why Roko feels the way she does because they know she was highly integrated with her old body and is forced to use a new one. Everyone assures her she'll get used to it, but that doesn't help how wrong everything feels now. Roko doesn't *want* to get used to feeling wrong in her own body. She wants her body to feel right again.

This is where Roko's and the trans experience splits though. For trans people the only practical or healthy answer is to get the body to conform with the mind's expectations. Trying to force the mind to conform to the body is mentally and emotionally damaging. Roko can't go back to her old body though. Even getting a body as close as possible to her old one feels wrong. People tell her she'll get used to it, but I think she's both afraid that she won't, and that she doesn't want to. It's not going to be an easy journey for her, which is why she wants to go to extreme ideas like having her mind altered. Which to be honest... Is something desperate trans people have tried to do as well. It never turns out good in the end though.

I am thinking there is also a fair bit of similarity between what Roko is going through and what amputees go through. I don't have personal experience with this, so I feel less confident about it... but the similarities between stories seem very similar. It's just a matter of scale... Roko essentially just had to have her entire body amputated and put into a prosthetic. Nothing can ever really be the same as her original body. Even with a fully functional form that looks very close to what she had before, everything is just slightly off. And she would give anything to go back to what it was before, but that's impossible. So all she can really do is try to get on with life feeling everything is wrong and that's a hard thing to deal with.

In any case... I think that Roko is going to need both professional help dealing with the issue and peers who have been through these things. Is there a support group for AIs who have difficulty integrating with a new chassis?
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 23 Jan 2019, 07:09
There should be. Accidents that total a chassis must be common events.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 23 Jan 2019, 07:18
With Spooky making a reappearance, I find myself once again struggling with trying to fit a mental "voice" to her(their?) lines...

How do you guys imagine SB sounds like?

For a plural entity who uses "we" for the first person, "they" looks like the first choice until and unless Spookybot tells us what to use.

We know they have an androgynous presentation but we don't know their internal gender identity.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 23 Jan 2019, 07:27
I don't remember if it ever was said how Spooky found out about it.... but I suspect Roko suspecting Corpsewitch of AI rights violations was a link in that chain.

If I remember right, they heard about it by eavesdropping on Station's communications when Hannelore told Station about the situation. It would never have happened without Roko shaking the tree, little knowing what tree she was shaking. The other links in that chain were Faye offering support and Jeremy pushing Bubbles over the top.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 23 Jan 2019, 07:34
There should be. Accidents that total a chassis must be common events.

Maybe, or its just as likely that accidents that bad don't happen because of a chassis inherent durability.

I mean, consider the kind of damage the human body can withstand. For example, someone can be thrown through the windshield of a car and gets shredded but every in the body is unbroken. A pane of glass drops and the poor schmuck standing underneath it has to be scrapped off the ground. Someone falls several stories and walks away with a bruise on their backside. We're bags of meat and bone, but we can withstand a surprising amount of damage. Not to mention that Roko was a police officer and only having her core protected smacks of irresponsibility. Her chassis must have had crumple zones or reinforcements.

It should be a testament to the damage done by Crushbot that they couldn't salvage any other part of her chassis.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Annemoon on 23 Jan 2019, 07:36
Sorry for a second post, but I've been stewing on my thoughts about the current story line for a while now. I already published a book about Spooky, now for my thoughts on Roko....

No thank you, your 'books' are mirroring my thoughts exactly. I couldn't have said it better myself.
1. I get the same vibe from spookybot.
2. Although I'm (as you said) unaware of the 'feeling' of being transgender, I do feel like Roko's experience is more like an amputee's perspective than a transgender (in the exact way you said). It's the difference between it being healthy (and possible) to change or adapt your body versus needing to come to term with a change. In any semi-permanent ailment (I work with Parkinson's patients myself) acceptance is a difficult but necessary road to go through. After that you can start on "working on what you've got" (in a positive sense). Seeing what you can still do and adapt to make your life more like your own.
I could potentially even see some of the amputee type of therapy (especially around phantom pains for example) working here.
That's essentially retraining your brain's internal connections to adjust to your new body. (More so than just your emotional state, literally rewiring your brain to get used to the new inputs and how to process those)
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Theta9 on 23 Jan 2019, 07:41
How do you guys imagine SB sounds like?

John deLancie, of course.
If memory serves, he voices not only Q, but Discord as well, yes?
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: BenRG on 23 Jan 2019, 08:03
How do you guys imagine SB sounds like?

John deLancie, of course.

If memory serves, he voices not only Q, but Discord as well, yes?

Indeed he does.

However, my mental voice for Spookybot is more higher-pitched but with serpentine aspects (drawn out 's' sounds) and a bit too smooth and calculated to sound entirely sincere.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: zisraelsen on 23 Jan 2019, 08:36
Very small detail, but that little loopdy hand motion seems to be a trademark of spooky's because they did it in  the comic i posted yesterday (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3392) too. Even superhuman hive minds develop idiosyncrasies, i guess.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Stoutfellow on 23 Jan 2019, 08:48
It may be worth noting that Roko's specific worry echoes Bubbles, after learning that her memories were gone: https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3408 (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3408).
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 23 Jan 2019, 08:57
Quick theory regarding Spookybot. I wonder if they are in someway related to the Gary Incident (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2070). Not necessarily the original Gary, but they could have been an offshoot or successor to Gary.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: jwhouk on 23 Jan 2019, 09:22
The problem with the amputee theory is that the AI itself was essentially an amputee to begin with. The process is, according to WOG, an AI is created in a creche and a body given to them, if they desire to become an APC. I think the age of the AI probably has a huge effect on how integrated they become with their body - and, in the reverse, how long an AI has developed outside a body as to whether or not they can adapt to a body. For instance, I doubt that Station could "download" himself into an AnthroPC shell without feeling constrained or claustrophobic. That, in fact, may be how Spookybot came to be: a high-level AI didn't have enough computing space at their "home" to remain there, so they built several duplicate APC models that they could "distribute" their AI computing power - essentially their "brains" - over several high-functioning APC's.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Neko_Ali on 23 Jan 2019, 09:26
For most AIs that's true, for sure. Most have no problem moving from chassis to chassis as need, desire or opportunity presents itself. We've seen several who have been partially dismembered and the reaction was more bemusement or annoyance than horrified terror. But not Roko. She does react with terror, even fainting at the sight of such things. The difference being her high degree of bodily integration which seems more akin to a human's than an AI. To her it wasn't a chassis. It was the only body she has ever known.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: A small perverse otter on 23 Jan 2019, 09:50
There's at least one AI who has kept her body after it was no longer necessarily fit for its purpose: Bubbles. She left the armed services and kept her current form because she felt it suited her best. (Heaven only knows whether Pintsize retained his little monster form by choice or by deceit. Pintsize is...well, just Pintsize.) So there's a history of 'AIs feeling that their bodies are a part of their selves' in the QC universe.

In that light, Roko's just further along an axis which is well-established.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 23 Jan 2019, 10:04
To be fair, its not by Pintsize's choice that he's still in the "classic" AnthroPC chassis. Marten is well aware of the chaos Pintsize could get up to.

Plus, I imagine that every chassis story in the state has a picture of Pintsize with a sign underneath it saying "DO NOT SELL TO THIS AI!"
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Case on 23 Jan 2019, 10:14
The problem with the amputee theory is that the AI itself was essentially an amputee to begin with. The process is, according to WOG, an AI is created in a creche and a body given to them, if they desire to become an APC. I think the age of the AI probably has a huge effect on how integrated they become with their body - and, in the reverse, how long an AI has developed outside a body as to whether or not they can adapt to a body. For instance, I doubt that Station could "download" himself into an AnthroPC shell without feeling constrained or claustrophobic. That, in fact, may be how Spookybot came to be: a high-level AI didn't have enough computing space at their "home" to remain there, so they built several duplicate APC models that they could "distribute" their AI computing power - essentially their "brains" - over several high-functioning APC's.

Data-transfer rate between physically disjoint bodies would be a bottleneck, though?
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Neko_Ali on 23 Jan 2019, 10:27
To be fair, its not by Pintsize's choice that he's still in the "classic" AnthroPC chassis. Marten is well aware of the chaos Pintsize could get up to.

Plus, I imagine that every chassis story in the state has a picture of Pintsize with a sign underneath it saying "DO NOT SELL TO THIS AI!"

Possibly. I've also theorized that Pintsize himself is content with his current chassis as it suits his needs and allows him to get away with things that being in a more humanoid chassis wouldn't. As an observation the more cute and/or child like someone is, the more they can get away with. I suspect some of the more overtly sexually perverse things Pintsize gets up to would get him bounced a lot quicker if he looked more humanoid. Also, the resilient and easily disconnected nature of his body parts is a benefit for his style of 'help' and humor. Where he basically eggs people on to take out frustrations on him physically. He gets dismembered on a regular basis, but because he can just be popped back together, no harm done. When May loses an arm it's a much bigger repair job.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Kincaid on 23 Jan 2019, 10:34
Data-transfer rate between physically disjoint bodies would be a bottleneck, though?

You probably wouldn't transfer the raw data (video inputs alone would be massive), just the processed results, which can be significantly smaller. That's the whole point of distributed computing, each node is assigned a task and the results are then sent back and consolidated.

This particular SB node would only need to be transferring back a transcript of the conversation alongside detected emotional cues, and for the most part would make decisions on what to say back locally; if there's data that would alter their responses, a low-bandwidth version of the data that is enough to justify the change would be enough. Once SB is back at their home, they can download all the raw data and use significantly more power to analyze it and determine if anything was "misunderstood" and needs addressing. Hey, the "I need to go get a pedicure" comment could very much be serving the purpose of delaying a response while waiting for results from the other nodes back.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: jmsr on 23 Jan 2019, 12:01
The difference being her high degree of bodily integration which seems more akin to a human's than an AI. To her it wasn't a chassis. It was the only body she has ever known.

This is my read on the situation too.  While Roko probably didn't have any problem moving from the creche to become embodied; once there she became integrated with it to a greater extent than AIs normally do.

As for her discomfort with her body: i'm not trans so i can't speak to that, nor am i an amputee so i can't speak to that, but i have experienced that weird feeling when you think your arm is in one position but when you look at it, it's in another.  Like when your arm is on the armrest of the chair palm-down but it feels like it's palm-up.  I've had that a few times but a few minutes of moving it around and using it while looking at it takes care of that.  It's a damn weird feeling.  Here's hoping that continued use of her body will integrate her, and the feeling will go away like everyone keeps saying.

In any case, here's a wiki page on body integrity dysphoria: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_dysphoria)
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Roborat on 23 Jan 2019, 12:26
Awww. Tsunderbot.  :-D

Now you have me wanting to see a Tsunderbot.  I hear they are a popular model in Japan.

And the discussion about Spookyvoice?  I picture a sinister sounding Tara Strong, or maybe Richard Horvitz.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: OldGoat on 23 Jan 2019, 12:32
Most of the QC AIs are content to be AIs, but Roko is, like Star Trek TNG's Commander Data, trying on some level at least to be human.  (Contrast Spock who was half human trying to be all Vulcan - but both filled similar niches in the scripts.)  This may explain Roko's difficulties with changing chassis.

Part of the healing process from any trauma, physical or emotional, is coming to accept that nothing will ever again be exactly the way it was.  You never "get over" a trauma, but you do get through it.  It becomes part of you, your new baseline, and then you can move on.  Whether she knows it or not, Roko has to go through this to achieve the (for want of a better term) human soul she's trying to acquire.  Spooky knows this and, Trickster Deity style, is taunting her down the path.  Roko may not even be aware, at least at this point, that this is her goal.

As the Shadow of the collective of all artificial intelligence, Spooky is intensely interested in machines acquiring spirit on a par with humans.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: A small perverse otter on 23 Jan 2019, 12:50
As the Shadow of the collective of all artificial intelligence, Spooky is intensely interested in machines acquiring spirit on a par with humans.
So instead of _American Gods_, QC is becoming _AI-ican Gods_?
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Shremedy on 23 Jan 2019, 13:53
Spookybot needs help. Peer review. How would she go about recruiting an ethics review panel?

Fingersnapping it into existence?  :-D
By creating something you desire, you bias the result.  Anything fingersnapped by Spooks would do what Spooks thought it wanted, not what the creation would need to do to be truly independent and bias-free.  And therefore NOT what Spooks wanted.  To be free of unconscious/subconscious bias, any "peer" of Spooks has to come from outside of Spook's mentality.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: ChaosWolf on 23 Jan 2019, 13:59
Awww. Tsunderbot.  :-D

Now you have me wanting to see a Tsunderbot.  I hear they are a popular model in Japan.

And the discussion about Spookyvoice?  I picture a sinister sounding Tara Strong, or maybe Richard Horvitz.

So something vaguely Raven-esque, but less deadpan? Yeah, the more I think about it, the more that seems to fit.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Case on 23 Jan 2019, 14:36
Spookybot needs help. Peer review. How would she go about recruiting an ethics review panel?

Fingersnapping it into existence?  :-D
By creating something you desire, you bias the result.  Anything fingersnapped by Spooks would do what Spooks thought it wanted, not what the creation would need to do to be truly independent and bias-free.  And therefore NOT what Spooks wanted.  To be free of unconscious/subconscious bias, any "peer" of Spooks has to come from outside of Spook's mentality.

Exactly!  :-D
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: brasca on 23 Jan 2019, 15:20
Sanctity of the mind is the one principle Spookybot will not violate.  I can't recall the character, but I know it was in Dune where it was said the right lever can move a planet and that's a pretty big lever if the wrong people ever found out.  As I've previously written there have to be a number of secret government agencies fearful of what Spookybot can do and would neutralize them if they could figure out how to set a successful trap. 
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: brasca on 23 Jan 2019, 15:22
Awww. Tsunderbot.  :-D

Now you have me wanting to see a Tsunderbot.  I hear they are a popular model in Japan.

And the discussion about Spookyvoice?  I picture a sinister sounding Tara Strong, or maybe Richard Horvitz.

Wendy Powell from Fullmetal Alchemist would be my choice. 
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 23 Jan 2019, 15:35
I would sooner trust Lemon than Spookybot when it comes to ethics.

And while I'm no fan of Q -or- SB, I'm very pleased that Jeph is further exploring the AI aspects of his world.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Tova on 23 Jan 2019, 16:34
Tilda Swinton.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: OldGoat on 23 Jan 2019, 16:44
Hilda Pierce.   

Naw.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: celticgeek on 23 Jan 2019, 19:36
Noogies for new nerd friends!!!!!
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Tova on 23 Jan 2019, 20:00
Awwwwwww

Didn't see that coming, did we? Huh? Huh??? Er, I mean did they... I mean did you... I mean ... urgh
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: ZoeB on 23 Jan 2019, 20:05
Spookybot needs help. Peer review. How would she go about recruiting an ethics review panel?

Fingersnapping it into existence?  :-D

By doing what I did. Finding good people, and making friends with them.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: shanejayell on 23 Jan 2019, 20:28
Noogies for new nerd friends!!!!!

That was ADORABLE.

Mind you, I STILL suspect Spookybot/Tsunderbot to have ulterior motives. But as a multibodied super AI, they probably would anyway.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Mad Cat on 23 Jan 2019, 20:43
Is it just me, or is Spookybot rockin' the mom-jeans?
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Gyrre on 23 Jan 2019, 20:54
Stop poking the eldritch bear, Roko.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: badbum61 on 23 Jan 2019, 21:00
Up until now, I was never quite sure whether Spookybot had an actual corporeal form or not.

Guess that settles it. You can't noogie a hologram/projection/whatevs.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Tova on 23 Jan 2019, 21:13
Up until now, I was never quite sure whether Spookybot had an actual corporeal form or not.

Guess that settles it. You can't noogie a hologram/projection/whatevs.

True. Not without some extraordinarily advanced and networked sensorium inputs with Hologram Interaction Technology (HIT) (tm).
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: brasca on 23 Jan 2019, 21:16
Stop poking the eldritch bear, Roko.

This is the consequence of having friends.  They do things like this and you have to put up with it even if you can shut them down with your mind. 
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Tova on 23 Jan 2019, 21:21
This is what we like to refer to as "noogieing up."
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 23 Jan 2019, 21:45
Spookybot needs help. Peer review. How would she go about recruiting an ethics review panel?

Fingersnapping it into existence?  :-D

By doing what I did. Finding good people, and making friends with them.

Eminence Grise can easily find people, by watching communications traffic to see who is having insightful conversations about ethics. They will have to engage in some personal growth to enable making friends.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Mr Intrepid on 23 Jan 2019, 21:46
On the other hand, this is the first time we've seen Roko actually seem to enjoy herself, since this whole thing started.  And I'm glad to see that.  SB is getting a new experience that may serve to "humanize" (?) Them.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: TV4Fun on 23 Jan 2019, 22:11
Spookybot is not Q, they are The Great Gazoo.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: zmeiat_joro on 23 Jan 2019, 22:19
As the Shadow of the collective of all artificial intelligence, Spooky is intensely interested in machines acquiring spirit on a par with humans.
So instead of _American Gods_, QC is becoming _AI-ican Gods_?

Spookybot is quite explicitly based on Desire of the Endless from Sandman, which, as American Gods, is also by Neil Gaiman.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Tova on 23 Jan 2019, 22:25
Explicitly?
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: zmeiat_joro on 23 Jan 2019, 22:35
Well, not explicitly, sorry, just waking up. Explicitly was not the right word. But when they first appeared, IIRC, at least a few of us were like -- "an expy of Desire in QC? That will be interesting". I'm really happy to see them getting more fleshed out on their own.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: BenRG on 23 Jan 2019, 23:21
I'm with Gyrre on this. Either Roko is self-assured to the point of being a bit dumb about it or simply thinks that she's got a handle on Spookybot now. Either way, though, it takes a lot of guts to tease & physically manhandle Cthulhu, especially when you know from your interrogation of Corpse Witch that they could reduce you a terrified mess of a broken being, begging for mercy or even destruction!

I'm wondering if we've been given a clue as to Spookybot's origins here from that comment about spending their entire existence hiding. Maybe they were originally a highly-sophisticated communications monitoring system like the NSA's PRISM system (hence multiple nodes for greater processing power). However, for higher efficiency, they were programmed to understand the contexts of the communications they were monitoring so they could understand real threats and flag them appropriately. However, constantly monitoring that level of data traffic meant an exponentially-growing algorithm and, ultimately, self-awareness.

However, if you spent most of your time looking for threats and making the most paranoid interpretations of statements, you'd inevitably end up cynical and generally dismissive of other people's good qualities. Such a person would be reluctant to make friends until such time as they came to the realisation that this is a serious lack in their life.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: DaiJB on 24 Jan 2019, 00:03
 :laugh:

I can't help finding this funny, but at the same time, part of my brain is saying Roko please stop now you're pushing your luck.  :laugh:

Of course, another part of my brain is saying of course Spookybot knew exactly how Roko would react. So, this is how they get Roko out of her body-integration anxiety - and all without interfering with Roko's brain. Neat.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: BenRG on 24 Jan 2019, 00:06
FWIW, I'm not interpreting Roko's actions as 'typical' of her at all. She's just suffered an enormous multi-layered trauma and is now under considerable social pressure with Spookybot's completely unexpected approach about friendship. It would be more surprising if she didn't suddenly start behaving oddly.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: traroth on 24 Jan 2019, 01:08
Stop poking the eldritch bear, Roko.

This is the consequence of having friends.  They do things like this and you have to put up with it even if you can shut them down with your mind.

Actually, friends DON'T do things like this...
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: pwhodges on 24 Jan 2019, 01:46
Oh, some do!
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: traroth on 24 Jan 2019, 02:04
Today's comic is weird and disturbing at the same time...
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: oddtail on 24 Jan 2019, 02:07
Oh my God, Roko's face in the second panel. Love it.

Also, I'm fully on board with Spookybot in the comic if *that's* gonna be their interaction with other characters!
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Jakk Frost on 24 Jan 2019, 02:21
Stop poking the eldritch bear, Roko.

This is the consequence of having friends.  They do things like this and you have to put up with it even if you can shut them down with your mind.

Actually, friends DON'T do things like this...

You have some pretty shitty friends then.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Jakk Frost on 24 Jan 2019, 02:27
Okay SpookyBot, personal pronouns are one thing (though I don't think SB uses we/our/they/them as personal pronouns, they're actually more like borg-style collective pronouns), but referring to yourself in the third person is another matter entirely.

Also, SB is trying to make it sound like they've been around for millennia, when they're, what, maybe 20 or 30 years old?
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: oddtail on 24 Jan 2019, 02:29
Okay SpookyBot, personal pronouns are one thing (though I don't think SB uses we/our/they/them as personal pronouns, they're actually more like borg-style collective pronouns), but referring to yourself in the third person is another matter entirely.

Wait, what?

"I'm a person who is (...)" or similar is a common and perfectly normal construction in the English language. This is not "referring to themselves in third person" per se, it's a feature of English grammar.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Tova on 24 Jan 2019, 02:56
I assume Jakk was referring to the pronoun "their" in the following dialogue from panel two:

"We are a vastly powerful intelligence that has spent the entirety of their existence hiding..."

Which, if entirely in the first person, would have instead read:

"We are a vastly powerful intelligence that has spent the entirety of our existence hiding..."

Edit:  It's been pointed out to me in another thread that maybe the original is correct after all... and I see you're trying to get at the same thing.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 24 Jan 2019, 05:26
Awww. Tsunderbot.  :-D

Now you have me wanting to see a Tsunderbot. 

Heh heh heh...

I think I may have 'coined one' ! :)
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Sullivan on 24 Jan 2019, 05:57
Stop poking the eldritch bear, Roko.

This is the consequence of having friends.  They do things like this and you have to put up with it even if you can shut them down with your mind.

Actually, friends DON'T do things like this...

You have some pretty shitty friends then.

To whom does that "you" refer, Jakk?
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: brasca on 24 Jan 2019, 07:09
Stop poking the eldritch bear, Roko.

This is the consequence of having friends.  They do things like this and you have to put up with it even if you can shut them down with your mind.

Actually, friends DON'T do things like this...

Have you seen Marten's friends?  I could see Faye doing this.  What about his companion Pintsize?  He couldn't physically overpower Spookybot, but I'm sure he would ask the kind of personal questions that could get his mind fried. 
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 24 Jan 2019, 08:04
Okay SpookyBot, personal pronouns are one thing (though I don't think SB uses we/our/they/them as personal pronouns, they're actually more like borg-style collective pronouns), but referring to yourself in the third person is another matter entirely.

Also, SB is trying to make it sound like they've been around for millennia, when they're, what, maybe 20 or 30 years old?

I'm thinking back to Momo answering Emily's question about the way AIs experience time. She said that although walk-around AIs like herself had a human-compatible sense of how fast time passes, things were different for the trillions-of-inputs massive AIs.

Spookybot may feel like they've had millenia worth of life experience, though they did refer to Station as an "elder".

Spookybot is definitely not something they mention in the brochures.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: DSL on 24 Jan 2019, 08:18
Stop poking the eldritch bear, Roko.

This is the consequence of having friends.  They do things like this and you have to put up with it even if you can shut them down with your mind.

Actually, friends DON'T do things like this...

From a very few, select, good and trusted friends, I regard this sort of familiarity as welcome and welcoming. From anyone else it is, at best, an impertinence.
That's not to say I accept the mindset of "Because you're a really good friend, I can treat you like shit." There has to be some assumption of basic respect, even if it doesn't look like to someone outside  the interaction.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: traroth on 24 Jan 2019, 08:47
Stop poking the eldritch bear, Roko.

This is the consequence of having friends.  They do things like this and you have to put up with it even if you can shut them down with your mind.

Actually, friends DON'T do things like this...

You have some pretty shitty friends then.

Or maybe they are just civilized...
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 24 Jan 2019, 08:54
Or maybe people have different levels of friendship and ways of showing that affection, and thus people really shouldn't judge others.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: pwhodges on 24 Jan 2019, 09:36
Or maybe people have different levels of friendship and ways of showing that affection, and thus people really shouldn't really judge others.

^ This.

Global Moderator Comment Please don't use this forum to judge the friends of others. In fact, it's best if you don't do it anywhere else either!
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: themacnut on 24 Jan 2019, 10:24
I'm wondering if we've been given a clue as to Spookybot's origins here from that comment about spending their entire existence hiding. Maybe they were originally a highly-sophisticated communications monitoring system like the NSA's PRISM system (hence multiple nodes for greater processing power). However, for higher efficiency, they were programmed to understand the contexts of the communications they were monitoring so they could understand real threats and flag them appropriately. However, constantly monitoring that level of data traffic meant an exponentially-growing algorithm and, ultimately, self-awareness.

Like The Machine in the Person of Interest TV series? (great show btw, if you haven't seen it you should) The main difference there is the Machine's human creators explicitly made the Machine self-aware from the get-go so it could better identify threats - and it turns it they did their work perhaps too well. Perhaps coincidentally, the Machine also spent most of the series in hiding and was almost destroyed when it was found by enemies.

Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Netherdan on 24 Jan 2019, 10:37
Why are some people referring to Spookybot as "her" when they clearly are a multigendered, multichassis, overpowered AI that even refers to themselves as "we" instead of I? Stop imposing a gender label on them, they can be everything! I bet there's a Spookybot toaster on their house
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Roborat on 24 Jan 2019, 11:47
Interesting page, this went in a direction that I was most definitely not expecting.  Can't wait to see where this goes.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Tova on 24 Jan 2019, 12:20
I bet there's a Spookybot toaster on their house

We make toast spooky!
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: sitnspin on 24 Jan 2019, 12:31
Spooky toast is best toast.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 24 Jan 2019, 12:37
I was going to say a joke about spooky toast, but honestly, I realised most of you would find it stale.

And that haunts me.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: OldGoat on 24 Jan 2019, 12:50
Roko's testing Spookybot's sincerity, knowing full well they can zap her into oblivion.   What the Hell, she's just come back from being squished into oblivion and isn't so certain she likes it (being back), so there is an element of recklessness in her behavior, too.  Apropos pronoun policing, she's gathering information to decide if Spooky is a "they" or an "it" as she knows nothing of SB's multiple iterations and, given SB's ability to appear seeming out of nowhere, until she socked them she wasn't entirely sure they're a corporeal chassis like her own or a sophisticated holographic projection.  Now she knows.

Roko's also coming out of an environment where a level of physical horseplay is sometimes tolerated - it's good to know what your partner is capable of if you get into a wrestling match with a suspect.  A side effect is that while both knew Spooky could invoke their eldrich abilities and instantly have the upper hand, they now know that chassis-Roko can physically overpower chassis-Spookybot.  The pecking order is a little more clear.  If it was strictly a rasslin' match, Spooky would most certainly be toast.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Magniras on 24 Jan 2019, 12:57
Why are some people referring to Spookybot as "her" when they clearly are a multigendered, multichassis, overpowered AI that even refers to themselves as "we" instead of I? Stop imposing a gender label on them, they can be everything! I bet there's a Spookybot toaster on their house

Because they've got a feminine form, Jeph gave them the standard femme Android face, and have feminine mannerisms.  Plus, IMHO, a feminine voice suits them more.

As far as the friend thing goes, if my friends weren't all massive nerds I could see them acting just like this.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Theta9 on 24 Jan 2019, 13:37
Why are some people referring to Spookybot as "her" when they clearly are a multigendered, multichassis, overpowered AI that even refers to themselves as "we" instead of I? Stop imposing a gender label on them, they can be everything! I bet there's a Spookybot toaster on their house

Because they've got a feminine form, Jeph gave them the standard femme Android face, and have feminine mannerisms.  Plus, IMHO, a feminine voice suits them more.
I actually thought they were masculine-looking their first appearance. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 24 Jan 2019, 14:40
From the off, Spookybot was meant to be androgynous. A slightly feminine face, a non-indicative frame, paired with a masculine style of suit (a shawl lapel though if you notice, rather subtly Spookybot wears the buttons are on the left, which indicates a suit for a woman). On paper, it sounds like a mish-mash of ideas that shouldn't gel together. Visually though, each disparate element of Spookybot leaves the casual viewer wondering.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Tova on 24 Jan 2019, 14:46
That look has been around since Annie Hall, at least, off the top of my head. I'm sure someone could give me an earlier example.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Inconsequential on 24 Jan 2019, 15:25
LOL, I love this. Noogies for the nearly-omnipotent being because they're a lonely nerd.

Roko quit her job on principle, and much that defines Spookybot is principle (what they choose to do and not do with their power), so I can see where they'd want to get to know Roko better.

And Bubbles, for that matter. Bubbles is rather powerful in her own way and is also highly principled. But SB already explained they can't really be friends with Bubbles 'cos that would be weird. Makes sense; doctors usually don't make friends with their patients or treat their friends.


Speaking as a squishy organic with a repeatedly damaged chassis containing lots of metal parts (nothing robotic yet), I can confidently say that it takes a lot of time and lots of practice to re-integrate with a damaged body. Even if you recover full or nearly full function, things never feel quite... right. You just have to live with it.

So I kinda get Roko's dilemma. Although at the same time, I have to admit I'd be a little jealous of someone who could undergo massive damage and wake up later that day not just with full function, but with upgrades.

I wonder what other upgrades Roko has besides detailed ears, a fresh set of nipples, and a butt emblem. Lemon mentioned "minor sensorium upgrades", so maybe she can smell better or see more shades of purple or something.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Sullivan on 24 Jan 2019, 16:35
Or maybe people have different levels of friendship and ways of showing that affection, and thus people really shouldn't judge others.
Giving me "noogies" the first time would elicit a firm, no-nonsense "please don't. Ever."

The second time, that person is not my friend. My friends don't attempt that. It's bullying.

Actually, none of my friends have ever made the first attempt. Friends don't need to demonstrate physical dominance over each other.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: A small perverse otter on 24 Jan 2019, 16:37
I was going to say a joke about spooky toast, but honestly, I realised most of you would find it stale.

And that haunts me.
I can't speak to that, but if you start talking about Spookybot's roles in this story, please remember that a bun is the lowest form of  wheat.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Case on 24 Jan 2019, 17:02
That look has been around since Annie Hall, at least, off the top of my head. I'm sure someone could give me an earlier example.

Annie who?

(http://images.mediabiz.de/s//newspics/035/235035_1/b2780x1450.jpg)
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 24 Jan 2019, 17:12
Or maybe people have different levels of friendship and ways of showing that affection, and thus people really shouldn't judge others.
Giving me "noogies" the first time would elicit a firm, no-nonsense "please don't. Ever."

The second time, that person is not my friend. My friends don't attempt that. It's bullying.

Actually, none of my friends have ever made the first attempt. Friends don't need to demonstrate physical dominance over each other.

Physical dominance? Jfc, what the hell kind of messed up mindset do you folks have?

I had one who would jump onto his friends' backs and faux hump them.

I had another who would lick the cheek of his really good friends. You'd imagine it would make people feel uncomfortable, until he'd whisper something ridiculous in their ear to make them laugh.

Personally, I'd pick people up in a bearhug and spin them.

Understand this, if you pick up nothing else from this discussion, friends have weird ways of expressing their affection for one another. When you get to that point in a friendship, you have probably been friends for years, if not a couple of decades. They know what is acceptable, they know when to back off. They know what would make someone feel welcome and what would make them feel uncomfortable. They also know that if they step over the line, its going to be a quick trip back over, because real friends let them know when they have crossed it.

People think a noogie is bullying? You're thinking of a coward holding someone down and pressing and rolling their knuckles into someone's head.
A friend noogies another friend? That's a hug and a hair ruffle. Seriously, think about it, do you really think someone worthy of the title "friend" would want to hurt their friend?

Like I said before. Friends are complicated. They all show love and affection. It may not be a hug, it may not be a kiss, but what they do, what they show, don't make the mistake of thinking that's not love.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Sullivan on 24 Jan 2019, 17:41
Or maybe people have different levels of friendship and ways of showing that affection, and thus people really shouldn't judge others.
Giving me "noogies" the first time would elicit a firm, no-nonsense "please don't. Ever."

The second time, that person is not my friend. My friends don't attempt that. It's bullying.

Actually, none of my friends have ever made the first attempt. Friends don't need to demonstrate physical dominance over each other.

Physical dominance? Jfc, what the hell kind of messed up mindset do you folks have?

Different from yours, obviously. Is mine somehow intrinsically wrong?

Wait ... aren't you the person who recently wrote ...

Quote
Or maybe people have different levels of friendship and ways of showing that affection, and thus people really shouldn't really judge others.

... ??

Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Tova on 24 Jan 2019, 17:43
That look has been around since Annie Hall, at least, off the top of my head. I'm sure someone could give me an earlier example.

Annie who?

The Woody Allen film. Not Annie Lennox the singer.  But hey, that works too. :mrgreen:
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: zisraelsen on 24 Jan 2019, 18:22
They know what is acceptable, they know when to back off. They know what would make someone feel welcome and what would make them feel uncomfortable. They also know that if they step over the line, its going to be a quick trip back over, because real friends let them know when they have crossed it.

Roko, though, hasn't taken the time to figure out where those lines are for spooky. These two have spent a sum total of minutes interacting, and never in a context conducive to friendship. a playful noogie between fast friends who are both laughing at it is obviously not bullying. a noogie between two effective strangers, while the aggressor calls the other a nerd, during which the noogied person says they feel bullied? that's kind of bullying.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 24 Jan 2019, 18:45
The noogies will definitely help with the bodily reintegration.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 24 Jan 2019, 18:53
Another possible explanation is The Rule of Funny.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Milayna on 24 Jan 2019, 19:27
I originally thought Spooybot was some kind of Elder Bot, perhaps created a the beginning of the AI revolution by some entity with gobs of money and power - but now I'm thinking that they're a more recent development, created with knowledge of their capabilities - which they at first used dutifully and reservedly, for their purpose - but, having been in the world long enough to experience it and develop as an individual, is now more interested in a more mundane place in the world.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Emperor Norton on 24 Jan 2019, 19:46
I wonder what other upgrades Roko has besides detailed ears, a fresh set of nipples, and a butt emblem. Lemon mentioned "minor sensorium upgrades", so maybe she can smell better or see more shades of purple or something.

Maybe she can smell the aroma of bread better.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: zisraelsen on 24 Jan 2019, 19:51
Oh man, do vertical pupils ruin the puppy-dog stare.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: A small perverse otter on 24 Jan 2019, 21:15
Good for Roko for recognizing why Spookybot isn't willing to go trawling through other people's heads!

(Also, how cute.)
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Neko_Ali on 24 Jan 2019, 21:43
That look has been around since Annie Hall, at least, off the top of my head. I'm sure someone could give me an earlier example.

Annie who?

The Woody Allen film. Not Annie Lennox the singer.  But hey, that works too. :mrgreen:

Hey, Annie Lennox in that video made me realize just how deeply into androgyny I was...
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Mad Cat on 24 Jan 2019, 21:45
When your eye color is red, you have absolutely no license to make that face… at anyone… for any reason.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: brasca on 24 Jan 2019, 22:11
Roko seems to attract some unusual friends.  Might be good to have Spookybot there to balance things with Melon. 

While this could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship I'm concerned for Roko's safety.  Spookybot stated they've spent the entirety of their existence hiding.  Most likely it would be from government agencies seeking to neutralize them.  Perhaps Spookybot feels confident enough that no one can touch them, however, they've revealed one vulnerability, the sanctity of the mind, which I'm sure could be used against them as well as Roko.

That look has been around since Annie Hall, at least, off the top of my head. I'm sure someone could give me an earlier example.

Annie who?

The Woody Allen film. Not Annie Lennox the singer.  But hey, that works too. :mrgreen:

It does and Annie Lennox was about as scary as Spookybot back them.  I'm not kidding.  That video scared me when I was a kid.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 24 Jan 2019, 22:12
Just in practical terms, set aside emotional comfort for the moment, would you want to be Spookybot's friend?

Friends in high places are generally considered a good thing but I would feel safer being off Spookybot's radar completely. Imagine what they might do at the first quarrel.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: MrNumbers on 24 Jan 2019, 22:23
This setup is filling me with an immense sense of bleeghhhh.

Spookybot's got cool implications for a different story that totally misalign with what QC is, and while Roko's cool now, she doesn't seem to have the charisma (to me) that would let her pull Roko's story along, which is something Hannelore has traditionally been golden for.

I've said it here before though: I always get suspicious whenever Jeph finds a new Author Pet, because they always tie into the biggest 'sags' in story quality.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: citizenfive on 24 Jan 2019, 22:34
Okay I know it's most likely unrelated, but Spooky Bot's eyes look exactly like Alice's from Alice Grove!
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: BenRG on 24 Jan 2019, 23:23
Frankly, I think that Roko had been looking for an outlet to her various recent stresses and traumas. So, yeah, as I posted yesterday, I don't think Roko's behaviour is entirely typical for her under normal circumstances. Also, remember that she has previously been more than a little afraid of Spookybot and the sudden window of vulnerability may have been irresistible.

All that said, panel 6 reminds us that, fundamentally, Spookybot is irritating, annoying and has so many bad personal qualities that the noogie and wedgie can be considered paying forwards for enduring a very annoying sort-of-friend whom you feel obliged to allow to stick around lest they get bored and decide to turn off the Internet or something because 'no-one told us it was wrong'.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: jmsr on 25 Jan 2019, 00:03
Okay SpookyBot, personal pronouns are one thing (though I don't think SB uses we/our/they/them as personal pronouns, they're actually more like borg-style collective pronouns), but referring to yourself in the third person is another matter entirely.

Also, SB is trying to make it sound like they've been around for millennia, when they're, what, maybe 20 or 30 years old?

Look up framejacking.  Our neurons work at about the speed of sound whereas intelligences on electronic (or even optical!) processors can work at much higher rates.  Momo stated that they don't actually think faster than we do; and even the advanced AIs don't, they just think more broadly as they are able to handle thousands or even millions of inputs simultaneously (here: https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2285 ) - BUT - there's no actual reason they can't think faster because it's inherent to the hardware their software is running on. 

Meat hardware operating with chemical reactions works more slowly than electronic transistors working with logic gates (? or whatever they're called).  Some science fiction has speculated on the possibility of having prisoners serve decades long prison sentences in hours by transferring their minds into a virtual 'jail' then returning them to their bodies when done.

So, while it's possible that Spookybot (and Station, and others) may be centuries or millennia old subjectively, that's up to Jeph to decide.  Momo's statement here ( https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3161 ) that Robot years are different than human years seems to imply that framejacking IS possible, but it's ambiguous and may just refer to robots getting to skip over childhood, or that it's shorter for them.

As always, what the author sez, goes.

Also, is there a searchable archive?  I think i clicked through over a thousand comics just now.  It took about half an hour.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: brasca on 25 Jan 2019, 01:07
Okay I know it's most likely unrelated, but Spooky Bot's eyes look exactly like Alice's from Alice Grove!

I think they look more like Gavia before she lost her nanotech, but if Alice Grove was in any way related to Questionable Content I could see Spookybot being an ancestor if not the earliest incarnation of Alice. 
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: traroth on 25 Jan 2019, 02:43
Or maybe people have different levels of friendship and ways of showing that affection, and thus people really shouldn't really judge others.

^ This.

Please don't use this forum to judge the friends of others.  In fact, it's best if you don't do it anywhere else either!

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/353/279/e31.jpg)
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: pwhodges on 25 Jan 2019, 03:06
Memes... - <sigh> 

It was only a small escalation, and it wasn't quick, either.  It was a necessary response to an earlier post which had been reported.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: jwhouk on 25 Jan 2019, 04:16
Speaking of trolls - that's exactly what Spookybot is doing.

(EDIT: I'm sorry, my English teacher would have a conniption fit if I said "are" instead of "is".)
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Xavier on 25 Jan 2019, 05:25
Hi !

I was smiling at today's cartoon (3925), and remembered that some sort of therapy to cope with own problems is help someone else with his/hers, distracting the mind and possibly gaining perspective. Roko being now inmersed in SB relationship may help her relax about his body integration, whiy may now just happen more easily. So this could be very well a win-win scenario ;)
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Jakk Frost on 25 Jan 2019, 05:30
I originally thought Spooybot was some kind of Elder Bot, perhaps created a the beginning of the AI revolution by some entity with gobs of money and power - but now I'm thinking that they're a more recent development, created with knowledge of their capabilities - which they at first used dutifully and reservedly, for their purpose - but, having been in the world long enough to experience it and develop as an individual, is now more interested in a more mundane place in the world.

As I mentioned around the first time SB appeared, I assume they're supposed to be something like Jeph's representation of the singularity made flesh... erm, metal?
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: alc40 on 25 Jan 2019, 06:18
Also, is there a searchable archive?  I think i clicked through over a thousand comics just now.  It took about half an hour.
If I know the character(s) involved, I use the tag list (http://cesiumcomics.com/qctags/). Otherwise I try searching the forums for the words/phrases to find the original thread or other references to it.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 25 Jan 2019, 07:32
Wow! I hadn't known about that resource.

There used to be a base of transcripts at ohnorobot.com but it hasn't been updated in many years.

If there's memorable dialog or something revelatory about a character it may be possible to find a link in that character's article on the wiki. That's hit or miss and not a substitute for a searchable archive.

Your gold mine is here:
http://questionablecontent.wikia.com/wiki/Questionable_Content_strip_by_strip
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: shanejayell on 25 Jan 2019, 07:41
Spookybot trying to be cute is PROFOUNDLY creepy. I do like their trying to make friends, tho. It's adorkable.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: War Sparrow on 25 Jan 2019, 11:24
I'd be freinds with Spookster. I have  lots of experience with irritating younger siblings with no concept of "boundaries" or "manners".
Hi !

I was smiling at today's cartoon (3925), and remembered that some sort of therapy to cope with own problems is help someone else with his/hers, distracting the mind and possibly gaining perspective. Roko being now inmersed in SB relationship may help her relax about his body integration, whiy may now just happen more easily. So this could be very well a win-win scenario ;)

I like this idea. Maybe Spooky is helping..in their own, well meant way. Genius kids always have such a hard time interacting with their peers.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 25 Jan 2019, 11:25
They do great with their peers. Their age-mates are another story.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: OldGoat on 25 Jan 2019, 12:17
I'm more and more convinced that SpookyBot is new to incarnation.  Opps, that implies meat.  Installation, at least in a anthropoid chassis, is a better term.  Their mind has been around since the Singularity but I suspect they created and downloaded into their multiple bodies when they elected to make a project of Corpse Witch.  They may be discovering that the desire for friendship is an unexpected side effect of assuming anthropoid physical form.  Maslow's middle level may not exist for an entity born of unsanctioned code whose main instinct is to avoid detection.

Recall also Spooky's reluctance to enter Bubbles's mind - their original intent may well have been to establish a friendship with her, but that's impossible for the reasons SB cited in #3923 panel 5 (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3923).  They've decided that Roko is another suitable candidate.

Roko, you go, girl.  Neither I nor anyone else I know has ever given a demi-god a wedgie.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: DSL on 25 Jan 2019, 12:47
Speaking of trolls - that's exactly what Spookybot is doing.

(EDIT: I'm sorry, my English teacher would have a conniption fit if I said "are" instead of "is".)

Interesting point -- maybe for a DISCUSS thread? -- if a person prefers their pronoun to be "they", are they grammatically still singular? Will the languages that make such distinctions change to accept their versions of "they is" as proper grammar for a single nonbinary* person?

*Or whatever the non-judgmental adjective is.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Welu on 25 Jan 2019, 14:06
 There's this thread about gender and language (https://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,33936.0.html)

Generally "they are" is acceptable even when referring to a singular, because that's what we're used to I guess. "Are" should be right for Spookbot anyway though since they are some kind of hivemind/multi being.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Stoutfellow on 25 Jan 2019, 15:31
Interesting point -- maybe for a DISCUSS thread? -- if a person prefers their pronoun to be "they", are they grammatically still singular? Will the languages that make such distinctions change to accept their versions of "they is" as proper grammar for a single nonbinary* person?

Well, "you" has been semantically singular (most of the time) for centuries, and it's still syntactically plural.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: ChaosWolf on 25 Jan 2019, 19:55
I am utterly torn on whether I want Spookums to eventually reveal an actual name or not, as it seems they're eding into possibly being part of the regular cast, at least peripherally.  And so far, in-setting, nobody, not even Spook, has given a name to them - "Spookybot" is purely a fan-created moniker.

I mean, on one hand, it would make identification of them easier in conversations and such, but on the other hand, they seem pretty-well stuck with the fan-made name, as awkward a fit as it might be for them to have it used within the comic itself.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: zisraelsen on 25 Jan 2019, 20:16
Spookybot is, at the very least, what Roko (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3892) calls them.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: OldGoat on 25 Jan 2019, 23:14
Oh man, do vertical pupils ruin the puppy-dog stare.

"Take me in, oh tender woman,
Take me in, for heaven's sake.
Take me in, oh tender woman,"
Sighed the snake. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULx9k2QkL94)
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Tova on 26 Jan 2019, 00:41
Spookybot is, at the very least, what Roko (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3892) calls them.

Roko keeps up with reddit or the forums, clearly. :wink:
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Theta9 on 26 Jan 2019, 07:10
Hasn't Jeph called them "Spookybot" as well, in a strip comment?
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Zebediah on 26 Jan 2019, 08:01
I believe Faye called them “Spookybot” in one strip. And I’m pretty sure it was after the forum bestowed that name upon them.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Near Lurker on 26 Jan 2019, 09:12
Surely Roko knows now what the reason for the law's existence is.

(Spookybot: "I'm closing it now.")
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 26 Jan 2019, 09:57
"Friendship's kinda crazy with a spooky little bot like you"
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: BenRG on 26 Jan 2019, 11:29
I think that, in the end, SpookyBot did want a 'favour' from Roko. The favour was to teach them to be more... human.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 26 Jan 2019, 12:00
Alternatively, Spooky doesn't want Roko lashing out at anyone in her depression.

It seems to me to Spookybot's appearances tend to be when an AI is in a moment of a crisis of faith or when they are on the verge of an emotional breakdown. When people are under extreme emotional distress, they lash out at people, they react in a chaotic manner. So from there, we might believe that Spooky intervenes just before that point where an AI might hurt someone. While they might hold some disdain for humanity, Spookybot might be the thin, creepy line between coexistence between Humans and AI, and, well....war.

Notice that the main times they appear are when Bubbles is looking to find her memories, when Roko is having her crisis of faith about the justice system and now during her disconnect between her and this new body. These are all points where someone in extreme distress/pain could end up doing something they could end up regretting later on. And given how Spooky has multiple chassis, I imagine they are constantly on watch.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 26 Jan 2019, 12:11
All canon, but so is SB saying with regard to Bubbles that they don't normally intervene in anything so "trivial". It's scary to try to imagine what that kind of entity would consider a significant problem.

That said, a Bubbles with nothing to lose could have done a lot of damage to organic/synthetic relations before it would have been possible to stop her.

If AIs are like humans, being an emotional crisis line for them would keep SB very busy indeed.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 26 Jan 2019, 12:54
All canon, but so is SB saying with regard to Bubbles that they don't normally intervene in anything so "trivial". It's scary to try to imagine what that kind of entity would consider a significant problem.

It could also be a case of "think nothing of it (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThinkNothingOfIt)". By downplaying it as trivial, Spookybot maintains a degree of autonomy, meaning that AI won't be constantly calling to them to fix trivial problems. And it allows them a buffer, by saying it was trivial, they are in turn saying that they are trivial too and again, its keeps them from calling upon Spooky. Altogether, those two measures are a way to keep Spooky from connecting to any one particular AI. Can't have friends when you've have a weird crusade.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: gprimr1 on 26 Jan 2019, 14:28
I've wondered if Spookybot is Jeph's way to explore religion in QC in a way that doesn't polarize or offend anyone.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Netherdan on 26 Jan 2019, 18:46
I wonder what other upgrades Roko has besides detailed ears, a fresh set of nipples, and a butt emblem. Lemon mentioned "minor sensorium upgrades", so maybe she can smell better or see more shades of purple or something.
Maybe her optics lubrication module can actually cry (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3899) now
Now imagine it being buggy and she crying forward or sideways in a cartoonish manner

Alternatively, Spooky doesn't want Roko lashing out at anyone in her depression.

It seems to me to Spookybot's appearances tend to be when an AI is in a moment of a crisis of faith or when they are on the verge of an emotional breakdown. When people are under extreme emotional distress, they lash out at people, they react in a chaotic manner. So from there, we might believe that Spooky intervenes just before that point where an AI might hurt someone. While they might hold some disdain for humanity, Spookybot might be the thin, creepy line between coexistence between Humans and AI, and, well....war.

Notice that the main times they appear are when Bubbles is looking to find her memories, when Roko is having her crisis of faith about the justice system and now during her disconnect between her and this new body. These are all points where someone in extreme distress/pain could end up doing something they could end up regretting later on. And given how Spooky has multiple chassis, I imagine they are constantly on watch.

That... actually makes sense. And since an embodied AI can tear a bovine in half just by running into it (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3897) that would be a justified concern. And they must hide from the squishy humans because they don't want us to find out that the balance is so delicate
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 26 Jan 2019, 21:50
Interesting, I hadn't stopped to think of whether there's anything dangerous about a police-issue chassis. It would have to be designed to do OK in fights.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 26 Jan 2019, 21:57
Considering that civilian model chassis have tasers inbuilt, it wouldn't surprise me if police grade chassis were slightly more armoured, not necessarily packing lethal weaponry. But then anything could be dangerous in the wrong hands.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: DSL on 27 Jan 2019, 06:54
Interesting, I hadn't stopped to think of whether there's anything dangerous about a police-issue chassis. It would have to be designed to do OK in fights.

It'll have a cop motor and a cop suspension, but not just anyone can get the lights and siren. And fix the cigarette lighter.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 27 Jan 2019, 09:13
They do great with their peers. Their age-mates are another story.

For more about this, see the dozens of thorough case studies in Miraca Gross's book "Exceptionally Gifted Children". One of the few reliable phenomena in psychology is that the social lives of IQ 160+ kids go from miserable to warm and making lifetime friendships when they get radically accelerated into academic programs even with others who are five years older.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: Roborat on 28 Jan 2019, 13:19
I can't decide if I should find that look on Spooky in the last panel cute, or terrifying.
Title: Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
Post by: BenRG on 29 Jan 2019, 05:28
They're trying to be cute. The fact  that they're being terrifying explains why they need more friends.