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Comic Discussion => QUESTIONABLE CONTENT => Topic started by: BenRG on 03 Feb 2019, 12:24

Title: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: BenRG on 03 Feb 2019, 12:24
Okay, drawing clues from Jeph's twitter feed for this week's poll. Jeph apologised to his future self for committing them to several weeks of drawing crowds. Why do you think that could be?

Well, I'm guessing that Hannelore's appearance is going to be a precursor to her attending another birthday party on the space station. Maybe she's going to try to explain Station and Tilly's relationship to her father or maybe she's going to want to talk to her dad about how she can handle her mother (or whether she should even try or just let failed relationships be)? The reason why I mention this is that Jeph has been researching obscure mathematics and physics, you know the sort of stuff  the denizens of the space station would think classifies as 'party small talk'

The only other idea I can really get behind is for Claire to be Martens 'plus one' at a Liberal Sciences Party at Smif College. Dora and Tai would certainly be there too. The point is... who would have guessed that Sociology, Philosophy, Economics and Library Science post-grads could get so excited? Or so loud!

What do you guys think?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: OldGoat on 03 Feb 2019, 16:31
Well, I'm guessing that Hannelore's appearance is going to be a precursor to her attending another birthday party on the space station. Maybe she's going to try to explain Station and Tilly's relationship to her father or maybe she's going to want to talk to her dad about how she can handle her mother (or whether she should even try or just let failed relationships be)? The reason why I mention this is that Jeph has been researching obscure mathematics and physics, you know the sort of stuff  the denizens of the space station would think classifies as 'party small talk'
Dunno, but if it happens the one thing for certain is the consumption of vast quantities of spathe ham.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: shanejayell on 03 Feb 2019, 17:28
Another comics or anime convention? They had one way back...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Near Lurker on 03 Feb 2019, 21:33
Is that Bailey?

...I guess Bailey probably doesn't like men, but I don't think we were ever actually told that, and "he's cute" doesn't necessarily mean this girl does...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: OldGoat on 03 Feb 2019, 21:56
Is that Bailey?

...I guess Bailey probably doesn't like men, but I don't think we were ever actually told that, and "he's cute" doesn't necessarily mean this girl does...
When did Bailey appear?  I don't remember her.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Nepiophage on 03 Feb 2019, 22:55
Is that Bailey?

...I guess Bailey probably doesn't like men, but I don't think we were ever actually told that, and "he's cute" doesn't necessarily mean this girl does...
When did Bailey appear?  I don't remember her.
http://questionablecontent.wikia.com/wiki/Bailey
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: BenRG on 03 Feb 2019, 23:15
In some ways, Marigold's intense neurosis that she's not good enough for Dale and he will leave her the very moment a 'better offer' comes along is tragic but it does give us a very good insight into her mindset and, maybe, just how bad her early life must have been to create this neurotic certainty that she will eventually be abandoned.

At some point, she desperately needs to realise the degree to which Dale finds her out of his league.

This aside, her 'stay away from my cream' cat hiss is always hilarious. As is the fact that those three customers all had a reason for being there that had nothing to do with Dale other than the professional.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: anahata on 04 Feb 2019, 00:17
My 'other' vote:
Since a party at the space station was was mentioned, and a new romantic attachment has developed there, maybe it's a wedding.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: SmilingCat on 04 Feb 2019, 00:21
In some ways, Marigold's intense neurosis that she's not good enough for Dale and he will leave her the very moment a 'better offer' comes along is tragic but it does give us a very good insight into her mindset and, maybe, just how bad her early life must have been to create this neurotic certainty that she will eventually be abandoned.

Though she  has mentioned bullying in the past, I feel compelled to point out that her early life doesn't actually have to have been bad for her to feel like this. There isn't always a simple "oh that's why" reason for a person's problems, and it seems... I don't know... dismissive to assume otherwise. Worse, it encourages a "well get over it" attitude towards those who can't point to a clear reason for their emotional disorders.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: War Sparrow on 04 Feb 2019, 05:35
I, for one, am encouraged to see Marigold maturing. Communication is hard, and awkward! But good for her for expressing her feelings in a forthright, honest fashion. I wouldn't do it in quite such a public fashion, but I do like that CoD is seen as a "safe place" for her to express her feelings.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: brasca on 04 Feb 2019, 07:03
In some ways, Marigold's intense neurosis that she's not good enough for Dale and he will leave her the very moment a 'better offer' comes along is tragic but it does give us a very good insight into her mindset and, maybe, just how bad her early life must have been to create this neurotic certainty that she will eventually be abandoned.

Though she  has mentioned bullying in the past, I feel compelled to point out that her early life doesn't actually have to have been bad for her to feel like this. There isn't always a simple "oh that's why" reason for a person's problems, and it seems... I don't know... dismissive to assume otherwise. Worse, it encourages a "well get over it" attitude towards those who can't point to a clear reason for their emotional disorders.

True, but there’s been plenty of times Momo had to push Marigold in the right direction and seeing as how she’s her companion AI she probably knows her better than others.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: drewdane on 04 Feb 2019, 07:17
pardon my being dense, but... pants kept falling down?  Dance belt?   :? :?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Theta9 on 04 Feb 2019, 07:23
pardon my being dense, but... pants kept falling down?  Dance belt?   :? :?
Look up "Dance belt" like I just did. It doesn't hold the pants up. That is not its function.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Mr_Rose on 04 Feb 2019, 14:05
pardon my being dense, but... pants kept falling down?  Dance belt?   :? :?
Look up "Dance belt" like I just did. It doesn't hold the pants up. That is not its function.
Indeed. Not the pants.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Penquin47 on 04 Feb 2019, 14:16
pardon my being dense, but... pants kept falling down?  Dance belt?   :? :?

After doing it in the back room, Marigold put on the suit and Dale wore her clothes so he didn't have to wander out naked.  As his hip/waist size is smaller than hers, the pants kept falling down.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 04 Feb 2019, 18:54
I think Drewdane was wondering about some of the terminology.

@Drewdane, a dance belt is a piece of clothing worn by male dancers to support their junk (mainly to keep them from injuring themselves during rehearsals and because dancers often wear skin tight clothing that the dance belt hides the outline of their nads).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: zisraelsen on 04 Feb 2019, 19:21
Comic! Well done, Marbear.
Wait, is Marbear pronounced marr-bear or Mare-bear? I've been pronouncing it the first way.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: cesium133 on 04 Feb 2019, 19:26
The backward-in-time effect has already been demonstrated by Target (https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/#1b2fef096668).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: DaiJB on 04 Feb 2019, 19:28
Okay, I nearly put 'Busy day at Coffee of Doom' but changed it to 'Other', because I think Dale walking home in the CofD outfit attracts attention (much to Marigold's distress), resulting in large numbers of unexpected extra customers turning up.

Dora ($$$ signs in her eyes), immediately changes her mind, has Emily make costumes for all staff.
Penelope protests the objectification of the staff, refuses to wear hers.
Faye, who happens to walk in at this moment, says Aha, you're afraid we'll see what you really look like in a superhero outfit and your secret life as Pizza Girl will be exposed. Fight ensues (again).
Dora hires May to advertise around town while wearing the costume, May says yes, but only if she's allowed to show off her incredible dancing skills....

Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: War Sparrow on 04 Feb 2019, 19:31
This is shaping up to be a good week for Marigold character development!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: BenRG on 04 Feb 2019, 23:16
I'm glad that Marigold is at least trying to help herself now. Recognising that you've got a problem is the first step to confronting it. Although the cynic in me can't help but wonder if Momo had to literally stand guard to stop Marigold from fleeing from her research into something less difficult to mentally confront!

Seriously, though, Marigold is always so cute and the way that Dale so obviously adores her is always sweet!

You know, I don't think that Emily is talking about an app that is so crude as to need you to type in your question before it gives an answer. She'd likely code a crude AI algorithm that would be able to diagnose your issues just based on your keyboard entry patterns and how you move the mouse pointer! Naturally she wouldn't see any problem about deliberately creating a non-embodied AI that lived on the 'Net and could access all of its data to diagnose and help people.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: traroth on 05 Feb 2019, 06:20
Using deep learning and collected user data, Google could probably offer a "searches you will probably be interested in" feature. I mean a feature that would hit the nail on the head most of the time...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Thrudd on 05 Feb 2019, 07:32
Using deep learning and collected user data, Google could probably offer a "searches you will probably be interested in" feature. I mean a feature that would hit the nail on the head most of the time...
I would be happy with just a Hammer that could do that.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: DSL on 05 Feb 2019, 11:02
Using deep learning and collected user data, Google could probably offer a "searches you will probably be interested in" feature. I mean a feature that would hit the nail on the head most of the time...
I would be happy with just a Hammer that could do that.
I used to have a Hammer that would hit the nail on my thumb with unerring accuracy.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: OldGoat on 05 Feb 2019, 14:21
Comic! Well done, Marbear.
Wait, is Marbear pronounced marr-bear or Mare-bear? I've been pronouncing it the first way.
It would have to be the latter.  It's a name her friends gave her and a rif on her given name, so it would keep the original first syllable.   Only someone who had seen her name only in print and never heard it pronounced would use the former.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Tova on 05 Feb 2019, 18:08
Using deep learning and collected user data, Google could probably offer a "searches you will probably be interested in" feature. I mean a feature that would hit the nail on the head most of the time...

It already offers results you may be interested in.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: cesium133 on 05 Feb 2019, 20:05
What's in a Lorentz Factor? 16 ounces of espresso?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: St.Clair on 05 Feb 2019, 20:11
I just hope the glow isn't Cherenkov radiation.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Near Lurker on 05 Feb 2019, 20:17
Using capital sigmas and deltas as variables seems like it could get confusing...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: shanejayell on 05 Feb 2019, 20:19
I see it now: Coffee of Doom becomes Coffee of Physics.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Tova on 05 Feb 2019, 20:22
What's in a Lorentz Factor? 16 ounces of espresso?

It's the precise amount of caffeine required to speed up your metabolism enough to achieve measurable time dilation.

For science.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Mr Intrepid on 05 Feb 2019, 20:23
Smif  College has a physics department.  Good on them.  I wonder if Penelope is part of that?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: jesslc on 05 Feb 2019, 20:59
The backward-in-time effect has already been demonstrated by Target (https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/#1b2fef096668).
:-o
This is fascinating and disturbing at the same time.

I feel like I'm probably missing something obvious... but can anyone explain why Jeph would say he's both so happy and so angry with this comic?

Also good on Marigold for a very valiant effort this week! Not only telling Dale about her insecurities but also not letting them dictate her behaviour. That's tough work, so good on her.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Gyrre on 05 Feb 2019, 21:01
Using deep learning and collected user data, Google could probably offer a "searches you will probably be interested in" feature. I mean a feature that would hit the nail on the head most of the time...
Ja, but being made by Google, it'd have backdoors for and reporting to the CIA and other assorted alphabet soup agencies.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: cesium133 on 05 Feb 2019, 21:06
Some (crappy) ideas for other physics coffee drinks:
The Rydberg: black coffee filled to the brim of the cup so the slightest motion spills it on you.
The Ion: the cup is underfilled, but at least it doesn't spill all over you.
The Bose Einstein Condensate: Iced coffee, frozen solid.
The Magneto Optical Trap: Iced coffee, with a laser etched sketch in the bottom of a magnetic cup.
Schrödinger's Cat: 16 oz. espresso, or 16 oz. of vaguely brown water. Final state not determined until you taste it.
The Evaporative Cooling: coffee served at 195 degrees Fahrenheit. You should probably blow on it some before trying it.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Storel on 05 Feb 2019, 21:29
I feel like I'm probably missing something obvious... but can anyone explain why Jeph would say he's both so happy and so angry with this comic?

My guess: He's proud of the job he did researching the equations (and "Lorentz factor" terminology), but he's angry because he had to draw the same set of equations from different angles in four different panels...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: OldGoat on 05 Feb 2019, 22:34
I see it now: Coffee of Doom becomes Coffee of Physics.
Same same.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Cornelius on 05 Feb 2019, 22:57
Comic! Well done, Marbear.
Wait, is Marbear pronounced marr-bear or Mare-bear? I've been pronouncing it the first way.
It would have to be the latter.  It's a name her friends gave her and a rif on her given name, so it would keep the original first syllable.   Only someone who had seen her name only in print and never heard it pronounced would use the former.

That's assuming you pronounce Mari like Mary (in English, though that's pretty much a given in this setting). /ˈmarɪɡəʊld/ is an accepted pronunciation of the flower, though, so Marr-bear has always made sense to me.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: BenRG on 05 Feb 2019, 23:21
This is another comic that strongly suggests that, whoever and whatever Emily Azuma may be, she isn't a baseline human. The fact that she seemed to intuitively know what at 'Lorentz Factor' coffee would be without an eye-blink really does suggest that she isn't entirely bound to conventional time and space! :-o

Meanwhile, poor Dora and Marigold are both clearly in the position where they have to deal with the fact that something happened in front of them that, not only did they not understand, they may have been unable to perceive. Emily as SCP-5001? SpookyBot is SCP-001, of course.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Tova on 06 Feb 2019, 00:02
I feel like I'm probably missing something obvious... but can anyone explain why Jeph would say he's both so happy and so angry with this comic?

I'm guessing because it's complete nonsense.  :clairedoge:
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 06 Feb 2019, 00:31
Comic! Well done, Marbear.
Wait, is Marbear pronounced marr-bear or Mare-bear? I've been pronouncing it the first way.
It would have to be the latter.  It's a name her friends gave her and a rif on her given name, so it would keep the original first syllable.   Only someone who had seen her name only in print and never heard it pronounced would use the former.

???

But the first syllable of Marigold IS Marr... not Mare.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: pendrake on 06 Feb 2019, 01:44
For comic #3933... (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3933)

1. "Um... four fifty?" ~ As usual, I love Dora's business sense.  Even when confounded, she still has the presence of mind to not let a money opportunity pass by.  ;$

2. Makes me wonder what components / ingredients would go into a "Lorentz factor" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_factor) coffee drink?

3. It is always good to be in a job that you feel is very satisfying.  Gods know there are far too many that are not...  :-(

4. I also get the feeling that if we ever met Emily's family, they would be surprised to see Emily holding down her barista job for so long (hired back in #3106 (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3106)).  From what we know of Emily, her family is quite wealthy, to the point that Emily probably does not "have" to work for a living.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: BenRG on 06 Feb 2019, 02:07
Speaking of Euclid-class anomalies, I'm wondering if the espresso machine at Coffee of Doom may be an undocumented instance of SCP-294 (http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-294). In essence an anything liquid dispenser. It might explain how Hannelore made her teas and how Emily apparently offered today's customer a cup of hot math.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Scarlet Manuka on 06 Feb 2019, 02:41
I see it now: Coffee of Doom becomes Coffee of Physics.
It's better than the other alternative, Physics of Doom. Though they're probably working on that up on Station.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: brasca on 06 Feb 2019, 04:21
For comic #3933... (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3933)

1. "Um... four fifty?" ~ As usual, I love Dora's business sense.  Even when confounded, she still has the presence of mind to not let a money opportunity pass by.  ;$

2. Makes me wonder what components / ingredients would go into a "Lorentz factor" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_factor) coffee drink?

3. It is always good to be in a job that you feel is very satisfying.  Gods know there are far too many that are not...  :-(

4. I also get the feeling that if we ever met Emily's family, they would be surprised to see Emily holding down her barista job for so long (hired back in #3106 (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3106)).  From what we know of Emily, her family is likely quite wealthy to the point that Emily does not "have" to work for a living.

They have a house by the lake so I estimate that they are wealthier than most of the cast except Hannelore’s parents.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Case on 06 Feb 2019, 04:25
Line 3 seems a bit weird - It looks like a standard multi-particle Schrödinger-equation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger_equation), but the independent variable of the state-vector \psi being "q t" instead of "t" (or is this q_i?) confuses me - could be that q is meant to be a scaling factor, but normally, q and k are used to denote momentum. Could be the result of a partial Fourier-transform, but then the Laplace operator in the kinetic term should have been transformed, too?

Could also be I need another coffee to get brain started.

Line 4 looks like a metric in the general relativity sense (rather than special relativity), and I have trouble seeing what it has to do with the other 3 lines. It looks like "3 lines of Quantum theory, one line of general relativity" and the two don't normally go together easily (special relativity, otoh, can and is readily incorporated into the usual quantum field theories).

(Also, whatwith the Lorentz-factor being the ratio of coordinate time over proper time (dt/dtau), line 4 pretty much says that in the situation considered here you cannot extract a simple Lorentz-factor, since not all of the terms on the r.h.s. are proportional to dt^2? Though I have to admit my shameful ignorance of much of general relativity, so that might just me being ignorant of a common generalization of the definition of the Lorentz-factor in general relativity ...)

Am I sitting on my brain?  :psyduck:
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: eschaton on 06 Feb 2019, 05:41
Dropping out of lurking mode to ask - is the bald guy with a mustache supposed to be a famous historical mathematician or physicist?  He's wearing kinda an old-fashioned suit, so that was my first thought. 

Maybe it's supposed to be Max Planck?  He has the bald head, the mustache, usually wore bow ties for pictures, and was German after all. 
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: zioninavision on 06 Feb 2019, 05:57
So far it is uncertain as to whether Emily will specifically be sent into Roko to help find and adjust what might be causing her limited integration with the new body!

Perhaps within, there would be some type of bread palace, a version of Northampton made entirely from bread, or, maybe a temporary switch to action-adventure within a bread temple/dungeon that holds an embodiment of the disconnect?
 
Moreso, maybe the rest of Roko's original self is still inhabiting the original body within her own layered AI consciousness and would need Emily or someone else to go in and talk to them! 
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: BenRG on 06 Feb 2019, 06:19
@Case,

My guess is that Jeph copied some equations from some source that are meant to demonstrate that information can only radiate outwards from a source at c and cannot travel faster (and, thus, cannot travel in a negative-t direction, based on the mathematical indistinguishability between transluminal motion and travelling backwards in time. If this is no longer current, pray grant me pardon as my understanding of such things comes from 1970s/1980s sources).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Case on 06 Feb 2019, 06:20
Dropping out of lurking mode to ask - is the bald guy with a mustache supposed to be a famous historical mathematician or physicist?  He's wearing kinda an old-fashioned suit, so that was my first thought. 

Maybe it's supposed to be Max Planck?  He has the bald head, the mustache, usually wore bow ties for pictures, and was German after all.

Well, the bald head & mustache could also point to Dirac, Sommerfeld, Thompson ...  :-D

I don't think it's necessarily meant to be a specific historical physicist so much as a type that may have been 'not uncommon' at US physics departments during a short period of time around the end of WW-II - back in the foundational period of quantum theory and relativity, Germany-, and specifically Göttingen, was the Mecca of theoretical physics, and physicists would learn German to be able to be were the music is. Starting in the 1920s/30s, American Unis (particularly MIT) started aggressive hiring practises to attract foreign talent, and with the rise of the Nazis, and later the race between the US and the Soviet union for German engineers and physicists, I guess you got them 'a dime a dozen'.

So there (probably) was a period when you'd hear a lot of German on US physics campuses (there are some remnants of that in (nominally) English math and physics-jargon, e.g. English-language textbooks talking about Eigenvalues of linear operators), even from non-German physicists (consider also, that even in Europe, German native speakers aren't necessarily German nationals - Austrians speak German, too, as do a lot of Swiss. And until WW-I, a sizeable share of German-heritage communities in the US offered bilingual German/English education).

Contemporary German physicists rarely wear bow ties and most of us speak pretty decent Inglese (either that, or I missed another memo ...), whatwith English being the current lingua franca in physics.




P.S.: Planck would be a possibility if we purely consider looks, but methinks that'd be a bit ahistoric - firstly, he died in 1947 and never lived in the US, and secondly, old Max had a cold-ass stare that'd make a Borg squirm. Don't think was the type to chat up random barristas. Very Kaiserreich, very Prussian.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: brasca on 06 Feb 2019, 07:10
Dropping out of lurking mode to ask - is the bald guy with a mustache supposed to be a famous historical mathematician or physicist?  He's wearing kinda an old-fashioned suit, so that was my first thought. 

Maybe it's supposed to be Max Planck?  He has the bald head, the mustache, usually wore bow ties for pictures, and was German after all.

I thought he was Marigold’s Dad, but his business is shoes not physics.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Killspree on 06 Feb 2019, 07:46
Forgot to mention it earlier but the Coffee of Doom power ranger suit would pair well with a Skullmaster helmet.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: TV4Fun on 06 Feb 2019, 08:18
I'm wondering if Emily may be part Senor Cardgage.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: OldGoat on 06 Feb 2019, 09:45
???

But the first syllable of Marigold IS Marr... not Mare.

Eh?  So in your neck of the woods they call the flowers "marr-i-golds," not "mare-i-golds?"  Perhaps this is still another example of USAians and Brits being two peoples separated by a common language, but the latter is how it comes out on this side of the pond where the story is set.

The given name Mary is sometimes reduced by dropping the final Y so it comes out sounding like "Mare" (a she-horse).  It doesn't shift to "Marr."  It may sound different closer to the Prime Meridian.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Wombat on 06 Feb 2019, 09:54
I assumed that Mar-bear would be pronounced with the first syllable rhyming with "bear," because that's how nicknames like that work in my experience. Meredith-> Mer-bear, Tara-> Tar-bear; but like with those examples, the spelling can be confusing because the syllable is pronounced differently in the name as a whole than it would normally be read if it was just those letters.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: DSL on 06 Feb 2019, 11:00
This is hilarious. Wonder why Jeph would be angry at the comic (see rant line). The only thing I can figure is there's an error in the "Lorentz factors" on the board, or in calling the "Lorentz factors." Not that I would know.

So I am left to wonder (and this is why I think the comic is hilarious): What is in the cup?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 06 Feb 2019, 11:00
New comic.
I am scared, creeped out, and excited --- all at once.
[edits]
Since Jeph has made no real attempt to obscure the blackboard equations, I am forced to conclude that they are the Real Thing and not high class handwaving. Now if only I could have a chat with Emily about the Riemann hypothesis...


Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: cesium133 on 06 Feb 2019, 19:11
New comic... I have to admit that I at first thought Philip Patrick Paul Peterson was a shrunken Elliot.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: brasca on 06 Feb 2019, 19:14
And now we get to see what Brun and Renee are up to since the last time.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: jwhouk on 06 Feb 2019, 19:23
Let's not get all negative over Paul, now.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: shanejayell on 06 Feb 2019, 19:34
Well, Brun is back...  :-D
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Toe on 06 Feb 2019, 21:25
Did Jeph just decide to forget whatever storyline he was working on before and do random "let's see what X is up to" stuff until he comes up with a new storyline idea?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: DaiJB on 06 Feb 2019, 21:44
"Not gonna make space in my head to remember that..."  :laugh:   I do like Brun...


BTW, I think Peter's fighting a losing battle getting anyone to remember his real name - potential running gag?:

"Who's that guy?"
"Who - Philip?"
"Is that Philip - he's Renee's internet hookup isn't he?"
"I thought Renee's internet hookup was Paul..."
"No, Patrick is Renee's internet hookup - that's Peter..."
"Who's Peter?"
"That guy over there."
"Him? That's Perrin, isn't it?"...
 

Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: TV4Fun on 06 Feb 2019, 23:03
Anyone remember Roko? Anyone at all?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: BenRG on 06 Feb 2019, 23:26
After I read this strip for the first time on Patreon, several things came to my mind:
All that set aside, the biggest flaw in Peter in this, his first appearance, is this: He's breaking what I consider to be the first commandment of even casual hook-ups: "Thou shalt not openly flirt with others whilst with your current partner, no matter the context or location." For that alone, I think Renee's anger is justified. That's setting aside her oft-expressed concerns about people exploiting Brun.

That said, there is a definite reflection of that one-night stand of Marten's where the two of them had trouble remembering the other's name and we all remember how well that worked out for Marten. I wonder how much alcohol was involved... and I find myself wondering whose toothbrush Peter is using here!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: OldGoat on 06 Feb 2019, 23:28
Well, Brun is back...  :-D
And Renee is back to being an asshole.  (She's jealous over a guy whose name she can't remember.)  Her consistent kindness to Brun is the only credible evidence that she has any redeeming social value.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Loki on 06 Feb 2019, 23:55
Hm.

After much thinking, I can finally lay my finger on what is bothering me. Rene is angry at Brun for walking around in her underwear, but not angry at Peter for doing exactly the same (as far as we have seen so far).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Thrillho on 07 Feb 2019, 00:03
Yeah, quite the heteronormative perspective on nudity that Renee has there.

Also she has no ties to this guy. He is literally described as her internet hookup.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 07 Feb 2019, 00:14
???

But the first syllable of Marigold IS Marr... not Mare.

Eh?  So in your neck of the woods they call the flowers "marr-i-golds," not "mare-i-golds?"  Perhaps this is still another example of USAians and Brits being two peoples separated by a common language, but the latter is how it comes out on this side of the pond where the story is set.

The given name Mary is sometimes reduced by dropping the final Y so it comes out sounding like "Mare" (a she-horse).  It doesn't shift to "Marr."  It may sound different closer to the Prime Meridian.

I'm STUNNED at this...
(No, seriously...)  I can't say I've ever heard any of my USer-type friends say the name Marigold, but your description above seems so un-natural to me to be almost unbelievable!
BUT I will also say I've never heard them say Mary in the way you describe either... an that's my mum's name, so that I have heard!

You guys need to choose an accent!  :)
(Says the Scot!)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: traroth on 07 Feb 2019, 01:10
This Parsifal guy seems to be nice, actually...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: traroth on 07 Feb 2019, 01:17
Renée has internet hookups. And is all over any guy who even only talks to Brun, like Clinton, who she accused of harassing Brun, even if he only tried to be helpful. That's more than protective, that's condescending. She seems to be convinced Brun cannot take care of herself.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Case on 07 Feb 2019, 01:36
New comic... I have to admit that I at first thought Philip Patrick Paul Peterson was a shrunken Elliot.

Remember to stretch your internet hookups after washing!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Milayna on 07 Feb 2019, 01:41
I didn't know anyone pronounced it anything other than mare-i-gold. Ya'll weird. Though I've been reading the nickname as marr-bear since there's no vowel to make the a long, and the other way sounds too close to "care bear".

I see people are still getting polarized over Renee, somehow, and I still don't really get it. She's in the range of normal human behavior, even without considering this is a slapstick comic that can extend the normal social rules somewhat. *shrug* Of course there's the current of condescension toward Brun though I think this strip is more just in line with how she usually is.

Also I wonder if Brun helped pick this one
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Case on 07 Feb 2019, 01:48
Yeah, quite the heteronormative perspective on nudity that Renee has there.

Also she has no ties to this guy. He is literally described as her internet hookup.

"Did you bring enough hookups for everybody, Renee?"
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: BenRG on 07 Feb 2019, 02:09
Actually... whose toothbrush is Peter using? That's a bit of an imposition there (unless he actually brought an overnight bag just in case he 'struck lucky' or something). Using others' hygiene tools without so much as a by-your-leave is a bit of an asshole move, IMO at least.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Milayna on 07 Feb 2019, 02:13
Is...is...sticking someone else's...toothbrush...in your mouth...a common enough thing, even as a jerkwad move, that you wouldn't automatically assume he brought his own? O_o
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: sitnspin on 07 Feb 2019, 02:24
And Renee is back to being an asshole.  (She's jealous over a guy whose name she can't remember.)  Her consistent kindness to Brun is the only credible evidence that she has any redeeming social value.

I am honestly perplexed how, given anything we have seen thus far about her relationship with Brun, you could interpret this as jealousy and not Renee being protective of Brun.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: traroth on 07 Feb 2019, 02:39
Obviously, Piotr won't be invited over ever again...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: pwhodges on 07 Feb 2019, 02:51
So there (probably) was a period when you'd hear a lot of German on US physics campuses

These days they'd be ticked off and told to use English in order to integrate (socially) better.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: pwhodges on 07 Feb 2019, 02:55
I didn't know anyone pronounced it anything other than mare-i-gold. Ya'll weird.

I say it with the first syllable having the vowel of "hat" - (for a UK value of "hat", of course).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: pwhodges on 07 Feb 2019, 02:57
Is...is...sticking someone else's...toothbrush...in your mouth...a common enough thing, even as a jerkwad move, that you wouldn't automatically assume he brought his own? O_o

Just a hint: don't watch Nisemonogatari, as I think it would shock you...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Tova on 07 Feb 2019, 03:22
I'm just going to have a chuckle at the comic and let all of these reactions through to the keeper today.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Zebediah on 07 Feb 2019, 03:37
Personally I’m hoping this is the beginning of an arc where Brun goes apartment-hunting. It’s long overdue.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 07 Feb 2019, 04:02
And that's when Renee and Brun whack Pedro over the head with a shovel and bury him with the other Pauls, Peters, Phillips, Pascals and Pongos in the cellar.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Tai Fanboi on 07 Feb 2019, 04:22
All the hate on Renee for being jealous.  I think it's more trying to be protective of Brun as she always had.  She's in her underwear next to an internet hookup who's making a joke or possibly hitting on her.  They might not know what type of guy Pavlov is, so while Brun in her underwear seems in her mind like another Thursday, depending on the situation he could see it as a little more than that maybe.  I mean, I would think there's some basic vetting going on through IM's between Renee and her hookups, but even then it's hard to do online. 
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: BenRG on 07 Feb 2019, 05:33
I'm starting to get a feeling that 'Other' is the right answer for the poll. I'm suspect that we're going to be following Brun to The Horrible Revelation and her interactions with people there. Maybe she's decided that Renee is getting all the fun or maybe something Peter says to her will strike a chord and make her decide to be proactive.

Will she ask Elliott or Clinton to be her 'Not an Internet Hook-Up' or something similar? I'm sort of hoping so if just for the comedic potential of their reactions!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 07 Feb 2019, 06:26
Why would anyone arrange an internet hookup and not have a spare toothbrush on hand?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: traroth on 07 Feb 2019, 06:32
All the hate on Renee for being jealous.  I think it's more trying to be protective of Brun as she always had.  She's in her underwear next to an internet hookup who's making a joke or possibly hitting on her.  They might not know what type of guy Pavlov is, so while Brun in her underwear seems in her mind like another Thursday, depending on the situation he could see it as a little more than that maybe.  I mean, I would think there's some basic vetting going on through IM's between Renee and her hookups, but even then it's hard to do online.

That's the whole point: Renée has no problem with having fun herself, but is protective with Brun to the point most people would feel belittled.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: sitnspin on 07 Feb 2019, 06:56
That's the whole point: Renée has no problem with having fun herself, but is protective with Brun to the point most people would feel belittled.
The two have nothing to do with each other. Renee isn't stopping Brun from hooking up, she's never even suggested that Brun can't do so if she chooses. This isn't Brun pursuing a sexual relationship and Renee getting in the way. This is Renee stopping a dude from creeping on her friend.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Oenone on 07 Feb 2019, 07:47
That's the whole point: Renée has no problem with having fun herself, but is protective with Brun to the point most people would feel belittled.
The two have nothing to do with each other. Renee isn't stopping Brun from hooking up, she's never even suggested that Brun can't do so if she chooses. This isn't Brun pursuing a sexual relationship and Renee getting in the way. This is Renee stopping a dude from creeping on her friend.

This. Also, keep in mind Brun is sleeping on a couch. He’s creeping on her friend who feels safe enough at Renee’s to sleep in underwear but who does not have a room to go to to get away from a creep. I’d be annoyed too.

Also, we don’t know if he’s a good person. Maybe he was a jerk and Renee is over his shit and wants him to get out. She doesn’t look like someone who had an awesome time.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Toe on 07 Feb 2019, 09:23
Is...is...sticking someone else's...toothbrush...in your mouth...a common enough thing, even as a jerkwad move, that you wouldn't automatically assume he brought his own? O_o
Why would anyone arrange an internet hookup and not have a spare toothbrush on hand?

I never really saw occasional toothbrush sharing as that big of a deal. I mean, it's safe to assume that they've been swapping far more spit (and probably other bodily fluids) by more direct means...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Timemaster on 07 Feb 2019, 09:49
If Peter/Patrick/Philip is an experienced hooker-upper and tinderist, he has brought his own toothbrush to the date.  :-D
In my wild years I used to carry a foldable toothbrush with me most of the time. Not so much for the (unlikely) possibility of hookups, more for unexpected partys and not beeing able to drive home the same evening.

Aaah, those were the days...

TM
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: OldGoat on 07 Feb 2019, 10:31
I didn't know anyone pronounced it anything other than mare-i-gold. Ya'll weird. Though I've been reading the nickname as marr-bear since there's no vowel to make the a long, and the other way sounds too close to "care bear".
Give the time-line, it probably is a rif on "care-bear."

WRT the toothbrush - Since he's an Internet hook-up, it's probably safe to assume he and Renee have been playing a prolonged game of tonsil hockey at the very least, so sharing a toothbrush would be trivial.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Magniras on 07 Feb 2019, 10:46
Is...is...sticking someone else's...toothbrush...in your mouth...a common enough thing, even as a jerkwad move, that you wouldn't automatically assume he brought his own? O_o

Just a hint: don't watch Nisemonogatari, as I think it would shock you...

That's one scene, and it would shock a lot of people for a different reason.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: pwhodges on 07 Feb 2019, 11:26
Indeed.

As an observation on the side, the toothbrush scene becomes more understandable (and interesting) when you read the book (it's available in English).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Milayna on 07 Feb 2019, 12:21
Well in fairness face-mashing sounds pretty gross to me too, especially if it's someone that you don't even know off the internet. Grosser even than putting "other body parts" in your mouth, especially since those are actually stimulating. Not sure why you'd even engage in tonsil-jousting with someone you weren't emotionally connected to at all, but ehhhh.

May be even easier to just leave the toothbrush at home and wait to rinse till you get back. Not like your teeth are going to fall out if you wait a couple extra hours, or even a couple days, depending on travel time and how long you expect to ride that particular meat train.

Though I guess if you intended to dive back in quickly being minty fresh might be a sellpoint
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: NemesisDancer on 07 Feb 2019, 13:00
Actually... whose toothbrush is Peter using? That's a bit of an imposition there (unless he actually brought an overnight bag just in case he 'struck lucky' or something). Using others' hygiene tools without so much as a by-your-leave is a bit of an asshole move, IMO at least.

Probably a spare one (as toothbrushes often come in multipacks).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Tova on 07 Feb 2019, 13:23
If jumping to conclusions is exercise, then reflecting is stretching. It prevents you from getting too tense.   :clairedoge:

“In the absence of data, we will always make up stories. In fact, the need to make up a story, especially when we are hurt, is part of our most primitive survival wiring. Mean making is in our biology, and our default is often to come up with a story that makes sense, feels familiar, and offers us insight into how best to self-protect.”
― Brene Brown, Rising Strong
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Thrillho on 07 Feb 2019, 13:32
Why would anyone arrange an internet hookup and not have a spare toothbrush on hand?

If a grown-ass adult is staying at my house they bring their own toothbrush or have morning breath the next day.

You'd have to get a lot of toothbrushes if you hook up on a regular basis, otherwise they're all using the same one.

Is...is...sticking someone else's...toothbrush...in your mouth...a common enough thing, even as a jerkwad move, that you wouldn't automatically assume he brought his own? O_o
Why would anyone arrange an internet hookup and not have a spare toothbrush on hand?

I never really saw occasional toothbrush sharing as that big of a deal. I mean, it's safe to assume that they've been swapping far more spit (and probably other bodily fluids) by more direct means...

Take it from me, I enjoy the fluids of others. The little bits of left over food in their teeth, though? I'm good.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Oenone on 07 Feb 2019, 15:31
 :psyduck:

Decaying food bits omg
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: SmilingCat on 07 Feb 2019, 16:34
Why would anyone arrange an internet hookup and not have a spare toothbrush on hand?

I would assume a courteous hookup would have an overnight bag with them with the essentials if it was understood what was to happen.

And at the same time the host would have their own essentials stocked up in the event that things were more impromptu or their hookup was less prepared.

For that matter, there's little reason not to have spare toothbrushes on hand in general.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: OldGoat on 07 Feb 2019, 16:36
Well in fairness face-mashing sounds pretty gross to me too, especially if it's someone that you don't even know off the internet. Grosser even than putting "other body parts" in your mouth, especially since those are actually stimulating. Not sure why you'd even engage in tonsil-jousting with someone you weren't emotionally connected to at all, but ehhhh.
Sounds like you're never fallen in lust.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Near Lurker on 07 Feb 2019, 16:37
I'm from a part of the US where the merry/marry/Mary merger isn't so much a thing, but I'd still say that that "marr[y]" sound is a lot closer to "mare" than to "mar."
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Platypodes on 07 Feb 2019, 18:29
If Renee wants to enjoy the after-glow of a hot night, or if she wants to get it on again as soon as Patrickpeter takes care of his morning breath, it's not unreasonable for her to be a bit jealous and peeved if she finds that he's gone straight from waking up in her bed to ogling and flirting with her partially-clad friend.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: War Sparrow on 07 Feb 2019, 19:41
ETA: nrew comic! Sorry Tova.
I asked someone where they were from once. It was an accident, but I was still appropriately embarrassed and apologetic. (For context, he said he didn't like coffee. He had an accent I stereotype as from a coffee drinking nation, and I live in a coffee drinking nation. It was still hella rude. But I did learn about Lebanon and Muslim culture while working with him, so that was nice.)

That is to say; indeed, do not be Pogo here.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Tova on 07 Feb 2019, 19:54
Just to save others from my confusion:

1. Yes, the above post refers to a new comic.
2. Lawrence is a place.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: TV4Fun on 07 Feb 2019, 20:04
Okay, everyone take back everything bad they said about Renee after the last comic.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: shanejayell on 07 Feb 2019, 20:28
Well. BYE BYE, dude...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Wombat on 07 Feb 2019, 20:31
This reminds me of an interaction that happened once when I was walking down the beach with a couple of my friends. We were 17 and 18 at the time, and the guy who came up to us was a middle aged man. "Hey, we were just talking, and we were wondering what your... you know, nationality is?" he said, gesturing back to a group sitting on the beach who had apparently elected him as their spokesperson.
"I'm American," my friend told him-- not in a Brun way, in that I'm pretty sure she understood immediately what was being asked, but dude asked for her nationality.
"No, but what's your-- you know," said this dude who was way too invested in this topic and could not accept the answer he'd been given.
"My ethnicity?"
"Yeah, that."
"I'm Chinese," she told him.
"Oh, because we were talking, and we thought you might be Korean." We had passed this group going one way on the beach and were now walking back, and apparently my friends had been a subject of discussion for them. Swell.
"Okay, bye then," I said as I suddenly remembered I could speak and that I should do so when people were being Like This. As we walked away, I said to my friend, "That was a super weird thing for a stranger to do" and she said, "Wait, that was a stranger?!" We were on vacation with my parents and some of their friends, and apparently my friend thought the guy had some connection to the group, which is why she put up with it as much as she did. We spent time throughout the trip coming up with alternative responses to make more of a joke, but it was majorly ick.

TL;DR: Don't be like this dude (in the comic or above story).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Mad Cat on 07 Feb 2019, 20:40
I don't like wearing "leg prisons" while at home either. I'm feeling more kinship with Brun every time she appears in strip.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Gyrre on 07 Feb 2019, 20:52
"Not gonna make space in my head to remember that..."  :laugh:   I do like Brun...

[SNIP]
As bad as it sounds, that's pretty much my approach to new temps. I'll bother learning their name after a month or if they're a chronic problem causer.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Gyrre on 07 Feb 2019, 20:58
???

But the first syllable of Marigold IS Marr... not Mare.

Eh?  So in your neck of the woods they call the flowers "marr-i-golds," not "mare-i-golds?"  Perhaps this is still another example of USAians and Brits being two peoples separated by a common language, but the latter is how it comes out on this side of the pond where the story is set.

The given name Mary is sometimes reduced by dropping the final Y so it comes out sounding like "Mare" (a she-horse).  It doesn't shift to "Marr."  It may sound different closer to the Prime Meridian.

I'm STUNNED at this...
(No, seriously...)  I can't say I've ever heard any of my USer-type friends say the name Marigold, but your description above seems so un-natural to me to be almost unbelievable!
BUT I will also say I've never heard them say Mary in the way you describe either... an that's my mum's name, so that I have heard!

You guys need to choose an accent!  :)
(Says the Scot!)
Let's see, a large influx of pre-Queens English Brits, Dutch, Germans, Irish, assorted Hispanic and Latino groups, plus a fair amount of Native American and French. Not to mention the assorted African languages that came here through disreputable means.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: brasca on 07 Feb 2019, 21:05
Okay, everyone take back everything bad they said about Renee after the last comic.

Well she did hookup with him and considering that she didn't even bother to remember his name and has various boundary issues she's only marginally better. 
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 07 Feb 2019, 21:18
Kind of a pot calling the kettle black situation here.

I mean, they both call him an internet hookup, can't be bothered to remember his name. Yes, he's a smarmy, odious worm in the shape of a man, especially in today's comic, but Renee can't exactly claim the moral high ground here. Maybe the "moral little bump in the floor caused by the loose carpet".
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: badbum61 on 07 Feb 2019, 21:38
Lebanese? With a name like Brunhilde? Wouldn't have picked that!

Guess it explains the eyebrows, though...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: comicalArchitect on 07 Feb 2019, 21:44
Welp, looks like we won't see Patrick Paul Skinny Angus Pablo again anytime soon. Rest ye well, dude we knew for two pages whose only character trait was being racially insensitive.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: TV4Fun on 07 Feb 2019, 21:55
Weird, I would've expected Polonius to have his own character page by now.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: OldGoat on 07 Feb 2019, 21:58
Okay, everyone take back everything bad they said about Renee after the last comic.
Nope.  It's all still true.  And she hooks up with jerks, too boot.

But, we do know a little more about Brun now.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Milayna on 07 Feb 2019, 21:59
Eh. It seemed to me like it was understood from the get-go that this was a VERY temporary relationship for the sole purpose of fun for one night. Maaaaaybe not bothering to remember names is a bit too callous, but I can understand mutually not bothering with personal manners while still expecting the minimum of public propriety like, you know, not being racist.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Drunken Old Man on 07 Feb 2019, 22:29
"Not gonna make space in my head to remember that..."  :laugh:   I do like Brun...

[SNIP]
As bad as it sounds, that's pretty much my approach to new temps. I'll bother learning their name after a month or if they're a chronic problem causer.

When I was in charge of a unit at a school/home for the mentally handicapped, the turnover was so bad that In would straight up tell new workers that their name was "hey you" until they'd been there a month.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: brasca on 07 Feb 2019, 22:41
Okay, everyone take back everything bad they said about Renee after the last comic.
Nope.  It's all still true.  And she hooks up with jerks, too boot.

But, we do know a little more about Brun now.

Yes, so the jackass served a purpose.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Gyrre on 07 Feb 2019, 23:15
Just to save others from my confusion:

1. Yes, the above post refers to a new comic.
2. Lawrence is a place.
Yes, but which one?
I'm guessing Lawrence, Massachusetts and not Lawrence, Kansas based on location. But, it'd be interesting if she were a Kansan.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Near Lurker on 07 Feb 2019, 23:18
Lawrence?  Now I'm picturing her with a thick accent...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Milayna on 07 Feb 2019, 23:21
Well in fairness face-mashing sounds pretty gross to me too, especially if it's someone that you don't even know off the internet. Grosser even than putting "other body parts" in your mouth, especially since those are actually stimulating. Not sure why you'd even engage in tonsil-jousting with someone you weren't emotionally connected to at all, but ehhhh.
Sounds like you're never fallen in lust.
I'm not ace, but I'm careful to contain my impulses, so I suppose I'm out of my depth here. Guess I should bow out of this part of the conversation and leave it to the people who know what they're talking about ;)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: BenRG on 07 Feb 2019, 23:26
This is one of the strips that makes me love Brun a little more. She really has the most healthy attitude about ethnicity. She's not Lebanese-American, she's Brun from Lawrence whose family, when she thinks about it, are Lebanese (FWIW, I wouldn't be surprised if they came to the US as refugees in the 1980s when Lebanon was a lawless war-zone). Everything about her ethnic background is just set-dressing for her because who she is as a person defines her.

Y'know... Is Peter is a xenophile, which I've heard defined as someone particularly attracted to those very obviously of other ethnicities? It might explain stuff. It would also explain the 'exotic' comment.

That said, yeah, he's an ass and he's really disrespecting Renee by so obviously flirting with Brun right in front of the woman with whom he's just had sex. I mean, the stretch he makes in panel 2 is so obviously an attempt to impress Brun it's actually a little sad. The lesson? Renee probably needs to stop with the random hook-ups, even if their on-line profile seems legit.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Tova on 07 Feb 2019, 23:39
Am I really seeing forumites getting judgemental over casual sex now?

Now I’ve seen everything.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: soulofthereaver on 07 Feb 2019, 23:39
OK, question from a confused non-american:

Leaving aside Pierre's obvious continued flirting with Brun, which was pretty douchey, why was it an issue that he asked Brun where she was ethnically from?

 From this forum topic it sounds like it's a bit of a taboo to do so in the states, if i'm reading this correctly. In earnestness i ask: why? It's a country with firm melting-pot status with many many people tracing their lineage to immigrant forebears in living memory, or relatively few generations. You'd think it'd be a more common topic of discussion, of people getting to know eachother.

What am i missing?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Gore17 on 08 Feb 2019, 00:09
OK, question from a confused non-american:

Leaving aside Pierre's obvious continued flirting with Brun, which was pretty douchey, why was it an issue that he asked Brun where she was ethnically from?

 From this forum topic it sounds like it's a bit of a taboo to do so in the states, if i'm reading this correctly. In earnestness i ask: why? It's a country with firm melting-pot status with many many people tracing their lineage to immigrant forebears in living memory, or relatively few generations. You'd think it'd be a more common topic of discussion, of people getting to know eachother.

What am i missing?
Not an American, but taking a guess from what I can infer: America has a history of racism.  Such comments can imply that they do not view those of a different ethnicity as "True" Americanstm.  There's also likely a privacy violation component, with your family history being your business, not others, and so inquiring is like inquiring into a persons sex life, something not to be done outside specific circumstances.  Asking is therefore inappropriate, and likely indicates a racist motivation.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: BenRG on 08 Feb 2019, 00:11
Leaving aside Pierre's obvious continued flirting with Brun, which was pretty douchey, why was it an issue that he asked Brun where she was ethnically from?

Basically, Brun's ethnicity shouldn't matter. He's defining her by her racial background and, at the very least, that is a bit dehumanising.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Mr. Doctor on 08 Feb 2019, 00:14
I believe it’s Mostly an american thing although it depends who is getting the question tbh. Im an immigrant in Sweden. i’ve been living here half my life now and even though I’m fluent in swedish Istill can not fully hide my accent plus my name ain’t exactly Sven haha. So naturally people ask me where I come from. I don’t have a problem with that as long as there are a other couple of questions about me BEFORE. It’s All about context.

That being said, I still find interesting that for a country that has such a melting pot and also provides so many ”find your genetic history” service... that it is such a taboo question still.

Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: soulofthereaver on 08 Feb 2019, 00:20
Basically, Brun's ethnicity shouldn't matter. He's defining her by her racial background and, at the very least, that is a bit dehumanising.

I get where you're coming from, but that makes quite a few assumptions about the asker's motivations. Sure Paco here is just interested because he thinks her perceived exoticness is sexy (which is blargh of him), but what about someone who asks out of simple curiosity, or just honest desire to know more about the other person?

Is it fair to suspect racism, dismissal, or even such strong a word as dehumanization, just from that kind of question?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Milayna on 08 Feb 2019, 00:25
OK, question from a confused non-american:

Leaving aside Pierre's obvious continued flirting with Brun, which was pretty douchey, why was it an issue that he asked Brun where she was ethnically from?

 From this forum topic it sounds like it's a bit of a taboo to do so in the states, if i'm reading this correctly. In earnestness i ask: why? It's a country with firm melting-pot status with many many people tracing their lineage to immigrant forebears in living memory, or relatively few generations. You'd think it'd be a more common topic of discussion, of people getting to know eachother.

What am i missing?
Not an American, but taking a guess from what I can infer: America has a history of racism.  Such comments can imply that they do not view those of a different ethnicity as "True" Americanstm.  There's also likely a privacy violation component, with your family history being your business, not others, and so inquiring is like inquiring into a persons sex life, something not to be done outside specific circumstances.  Asking is therefore inappropriate, and likely indicates a racist motivation.
Pretty much this. White American douchebros view this country as "their house" (a phrase that's part of our political language) and "everyone else" as guests to be entertained or evicted at pleasure. Asking the ethnicity of people you aren't friends with or who have otherwise signaled they're comfortable talking about it is an "othering" act. And especially in THIS context, he's reducing Brun to a slab of meat with a brand on it. So, pretty forwardly racist.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Thrillho on 08 Feb 2019, 00:50
Basically, Brun's ethnicity shouldn't matter. He's defining her by her racial background and, at the very least, that is a bit dehumanising.

I get where you're coming from, but that makes quite a few assumptions about the asker's motivations. Sure Paco here is just interested because he thinks her perceived exoticness is sexy (which is blargh of him), but what about someone who asks out of simple curiosity, or just honest desire to know more about the other person?

Is it fair to suspect racism, dismissal, or even such strong a word as dehumanization, just from that kind of question?

Yes. Are you a person of colour? Or if you're white, have you been to a country for a prolonged period where you are a minority?

Racism is sewn into the fabric of society, and that question is an enormous warning bell because of how often it develops into something else, but also because of 'other'-ing. 'Hey, you are different from the norm! So what are you?' is what is being asked.

And the rest of conversation indicates pretty well that Renée's response was on the money.

On a related note, I would like to join with some personal disappointment in people's judgement of the casual sex also.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Toe on 08 Feb 2019, 00:51
Just to save others from my confusion:

1. Yes, the above post refers to a new comic.
2. Lawrence is a place.
Yes, but which one?
I'm guessing Lawrence, Massachusetts and not Lawrence, Kansas based on location. But, it'd be interesting if she were a Kansan.

My thought as well. Lawrence, KS is a big college town, so I guess a transplant from there would fit right in.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: neurocase on 08 Feb 2019, 01:00
I feel like Renee got offended a panel too early. Papalymo overstepped his bounds after that for sure, but just asking where someone is from as casually as that seems a little early to get combative without any context.

He's still a massive dick, I just don't get why Renee was already exclaiming with boldface emphasis type before he actually showed his hand.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: oddtail on 08 Feb 2019, 01:02
Basically, Brun's ethnicity shouldn't matter. He's defining her by her racial background and, at the very least, that is a bit dehumanising.

I get where you're coming from, but that makes quite a few assumptions about the asker's motivations. Sure Paco here is just interested because he thinks her perceived exoticness is sexy (which is blargh of him), but what about someone who asks out of simple curiosity, or just honest desire to know more about the other person?

Is it fair to suspect racism, dismissal, or even such strong a word as dehumanization, just from that kind of question?

Not an American and I'm pretty much as white as they get. So offering an outside perspective - you'll do well to listen to people who have actual experience with race-related issues. I'm both talking about this in theoretical terms, AND might get things wrong or miss something.

That being said:

You're making two awfully big assumptions here, even if you're not stating them explicitly. Both are, in my view, wrong.

The first is that your intent makes things OK that would not otherwise be OK. Specifically, that if you don't mean something as racist, then it isn't racist. This can be true, but doesn't have to.

Note that the question about ethnicity is almost always phrased as "where are you from?" or similar. It's about ethnicity, but it's about ethnicity in a very specific way. It assumes that someone not looking a certain way is not the default, and therefore worthy of scrutiny. In other words, non-white people are strange enough to warrant questions if your intent is benign.

This has implications, and pretty racist ones. American culture is theoretically built on individualism and, in modern times, equality. Trying to pinpoint someone on the world map implies that they're not actually American (note: you ask specifically because you want to know where they're "from". You're immediately jumping to a conclusion that even if they were born in the USA, they're not "really" from here. That their ethnicity means they're also from somewhere else). White people don't usually get asked that. From what I hear, that almost never happens. This is inherently racist. Non-Hispanic white people in the US are at 63% and the percentage is decreasing. But it's assumed a white person is not from Germany, France or Russia. The default assumption is that they're "from here".

It's also a matter of connotations with the question. Racism exists in America and shaped its history, and when you say something, you share whatever baggage the words you uttered have. You don't get to claim ignorance. Asking a loaded question just because you're innocent in intent doesn't make the question any less troubling. Today's comic actually illustrates this pretty well, by Brun being clueless about the implications of the question. See, nobody's blaming Brun. But we know from the comic that she often asks extremely improper questions. She can be excused to an extent and it's often played for comedy, but it's generally understood some of the things she says are generally considered rude. That's WHY she stands out and her questions register as unusual and/or funny. They're things to say that are improper, usually.

Which brings me to the second way I think you're missing something important. Such a question would be inappropriate even in the ideal fantasy world where racism doesn't exist. It's a question that comes out of nowhere. You say it may be asked just to "learn as much as possible about a person".

Except, no it isn't. You see the way someone looks that you don't even know, and you ask them about their looks. This is inappropriate for the exact same reason you don't ask an obese person "so, why are you so fat? Is this a health thing or...?". It's invasive, and inherently judgmental. Like the person has to explain their health history (and with race, genetic history) to you? It's not a casual, get-to-know-you-better question. You don't ask strangers such questions, because it's rude even if SOMEHOW racism is not a potential factor (and it always is, see above). You're immediately making the judgment that you need to know this physical thing about a person, and that's a good conversation starter? Why, exactly?

See, theoretically asking a person about their ethnicity might be acceptable. Either because you need to know that for a legitimate reason, or you know the person well and you're asking about their family history because you're genuinely curious. But if you're not close friends with someone, in USA culture you generally don't pry into their private life. You don't necessarily ask about their childhood, or parents, or other such things. Asking about ethnicity is like asking about family history, and nobody does that casually to a stranger. And also, it raises the question about why you thought this was the first question to ask.

So to sum up, when you ask about ethnicity:
1) you're exoticising a person and treating them like a curious animal, not a person.
2) You're unaware or you decide to ignore the history of racism in the US, which is there whether you claim innocence or not.
3) You ask a very personal question that is just not that appropriate irrespective of racial baggage.
4) You focus on someone's looks and you pry into something that you honestly have no business being interested about if the two of you aren't very close.
5) You, consciously or not, paint being white as a default that someone not fitting has to somehow explain or have stories about or elaborate on. Something that doens't happen to white people usually.
6) If you frame the question as "where are you from?", the unspoken question is really "you're not white, so there's a high chance you're not American even if you were born here. It's different and requires more scrutiny and reframing even if nothing about you otherwise indicates that's actually true".
7) If you're immediately curious about someone's ethnicity and you're not, like, an anthropologist or geneticist (who still shouldn't ask overly personal questions), it's debatable if it's actual curiosity. Why would you ask THIS specific question of a person? You're implying it's OK for you to pry just because you're "curious".

And note - all I've written is just the tip of an iceberg. Anything ethnicity related has connotations and hidden meaning and entanglements that reach back hundreds of years even if you're being conservative. By necessity, I can't explain the history of race relations and colonialism in one post, even if I knew it all ;)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: soulofthereaver on 08 Feb 2019, 01:05
Or if you're white, have you been to a country for a prolonged period where you are a minority?

I have. I've spent a year in the Netherlands as an exchange student, hailing from an eastern european country that the dutch have some pretty.... strong views on.

I was talked down to, talked about behind my back by people who assumed i did not speak the language, scammed twice by bus drivers (long story), and had a few other "pleasant" conversations that i care not to recall in any detail.

And yes, i've even had the conversation where i was asked where i was from, and my answer prompted an "oh..." whose meaning was quite apparent. But here's the rub, you could always tell those people. Their general attitude towards you, their manner of speech, and other bits of context betrayed exactly why they were asking the question. In other circumstances, where i got the same from earnest, friendly people, i never got upset or suspected them of xenophobia, as the way in which they asked was completely different. You can usually tell people who want to make friends from twats who want to label and "other" you.

This is why i doubt the question alone qualifies as racism, context matters a lot.


Edit: holy wall of text, Batman.

In reply to oddtail, yes i get that we're talking about a minefield of racially exclusionary and xenophobic history that stretches its ugly tendrils into today. I understand that this really complicates matters. But in addition to my above remark about context, i'd add two things.

One, everything you said applies more the less you know about a person and hurry to learn their provenance, that shows you care little about the person, and more about how to better label them.
Two, i'd like to question the a priori assumption in the sentence where you said i assumed "intent makes things OK that would not otherwise be OK." I'm saying rather that whether something is ok or not has to do a great deal with intent, and also in the way you make that intent known. I.E. asking such personal questions in appropriate settings, not breaking certain boundaries to do it, etc. I.E. Not the way Pedro did it. It was clear he didn't care one whit about the person he was asking about.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: oddtail on 08 Feb 2019, 01:10
This is why i doubt the question alone qualifies as racism, context matters a lot.

But that's the thing. The speaker doesn't get to claim a certain context. The questions you ask and the things you say have cultural context you might not intend. Questions about race in America have certain connotations whether you (claim to) know it or not. See my post above.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: soulofthereaver on 08 Feb 2019, 01:19
This is why i doubt the question alone qualifies as racism, context matters a lot.

But that's the thing. The speaker doesn't get to claim a certain context. The questions you ask and the things you say have cultural context you might not intend. Questions about race in America have certain connotations whether you (claim to) know it or not. See my post above.

Yes i saw your post above only after i posted my own, and i edited mine accordingly. As stated in the edit, i think you can make your intent clear from the time place and manner in which you make your inquiries; it following that there are ways in which it's proper to ask about ethnicity, if you mind common courtesy, basic empathy, and your relationship to the person you're conversing with.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: oddtail on 08 Feb 2019, 01:21
it following that there are ways in which it's proper to ask about ethnicity, if you mind common courtesy, basic empathy, and your relationship to the person you're conversing with.

Yes. "I barely know you, but I'm curious" is arguably not among those ways. Which is the case in the comic, the dude's casually sexual exoticising notwithstanding.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: neurocase on 08 Feb 2019, 01:22
Questions about race in America have certain connotations whether you (claim to) know it or not. See my post above.

As a non-American, this is utterly bizarre to me. Where I'm from, the question "where are you from?" is most oft answered with an eagerness to impart ethnic/cultural background. I guess culture-sharing isn't really a thing in the states.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: oddtail on 08 Feb 2019, 01:29
Questions about race in America have certain connotations whether you (claim to) know it or not. See my post above.

As a non-American, this is utterly bizarre to me. Where I'm from, the question "where are you from?" is most oft answered with an eagerness to impart ethnic/cultural background. I guess culture-sharing isn't really a thing in the states.

Yeah, well, cultural context obviously matters. In Poland, many people will argue the question is innocent enough, mostly because there's no history of slavery (at least, not race-based slavery) and because Poland was never a colonial power.

I personally disagree, if someone asked the question, I'd think it imparts the message of "we're an extremely ethnically uniform society, and now I'm LOUDLY DRAWING ATTENTION TO YOUR STANDING OUT". We, as a nation, are already the uncultured rubes of Europe, questions like this help none.

(and while we don't have a national history of slavery, we have a "proud" history of xenophobia and antisemitism, so we just have utterly DIFFERENT baggage there)

I wouldn't say "culture-sharing is not a thing" in the US, as you phrase it. For one thing, a question asked like this puts the burden of sharing on the non-white person (usually). It's intrusive that way, and I can only imagine that's part of the problem. Secondly, from what I understand, American culture deemphasises cultural differences on a personal level. You're invited to bring whatever you want to the table and shape the gestalt American culture. You're not supposed to be singled out because of it. And questions about ethnicity are a common tactic of "othering" a person, which can't be easily ignored.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: soulofthereaver on 08 Feb 2019, 01:29
it following that there are ways in which it's proper to ask about ethnicity, if you mind common courtesy, basic empathy, and your relationship to the person you're conversing with.

Yes. "I barely know you, but I'm curious" is arguably not among those ways. Which is the case in the comic, the dude's casually sexual exoticising notwithstanding.

I can agree with that. Though if i do get someone who does that, i'd at worst assume they don't know how to deal with boundaries very well. I don't jump to racism as an explanation unless i get other signs of it as well.

Questions about race in America have certain connotations whether you (claim to) know it or not. See my post above.

As a non-American, this is utterly bizarre to me. Where I'm from, the question "where are you from?" is most oft answered with an eagerness to impart ethnic/cultural background. I guess culture-sharing isn't really a thing in the states.


This. It must be horrible to live in a society where you have reason to suspect any stranger of ill-will and discrimination based on what you look like or where you're from, and to have to treat any implication they might make with suspicion.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Milayna on 08 Feb 2019, 01:31
Questions about race in America have certain connotations whether you (claim to) know it or not. See my post above.

As a non-American, this is utterly bizarre to me. Where I'm from, the question "where are you from?" is most oft answered with an eagerness to impart ethnic/cultural background. I guess culture-sharing isn't really a thing in the states.
Not when there's a good chance that an unsatisfactory response will prompt ICE to show up in body armor, throw your kids in prison, lose your identification, and drop you off on the other side of the world.

Or if not that, get you harassed like that lawyer in the supermarket did last year, or that smug schoolboy prick from kentucky a few weeks back.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: oddtail on 08 Feb 2019, 01:34

(...) if i do get someone who does that, i'd at worst assume they don't know how to deal with boundaries very well. I don't jump to racism as an explanation unless i get other signs of it as well.

Unconscious racism is still racism, though. Racism is not (just) about intent. It's about power structures and power relations. A person blissfully unaware that what they said has troubling racist connotations is still being racist, even if they have the best of intentions.

I think it's harmful to frame racism in overly individualistic terms. Racism is not about this person hating black people or that person being prejudiced against people from East Asia. Racism is about systemic problems. A person not being aware of the problems is not proof racism is not at play. If anything, I'd argue such ignorance usually reinforces the idea that racism is doing well.

TL;DR - racism can exist in absence of conscious, malevolent intent. It usually is the case.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: soulofthereaver on 08 Feb 2019, 01:50

(...) if i do get someone who does that, i'd at worst assume they don't know how to deal with boundaries very well. I don't jump to racism as an explanation unless i get other signs of it as well.

Unconscious racism is still racism, though. Racism is not (just) about intent. It's about power structures and power relations. A person blissfully unaware that what they said has troubling racist connotations is still being racist, even if they have the best of intentions.

I think it's harmful to frame racism in overly individualistic terms. Racism is not about this person hating black people or that person being prejudiced against people from East Asia. Racism is about systemic problems. A person not being aware of the problems is not proof racism is not at play. If anything, I'd argue such ignorance usually reinforces the idea that racism is doing well.

TL;DR - racism can exist in absence of conscious, malevolent intent. It usually is the case.

Yeah that's an entirely different can of worms that is a lot more disturbing. There's a double standard there from what i've seen. I've heard the argument that racism is not neccesarily intentional, but at the same time even this unintended racism is treated as if it was, with people "guilty" of ignorance or at most insensitivity treated the same way as those who practice willful hatred of the "other"; i.e. in practice the same level of malice is assumed, and they get rebuked just as harshly. I've even encountered cases where that hostility has bred true racism over time. It's a hot mess.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: oddtail on 08 Feb 2019, 01:59

(...) if i do get someone who does that, i'd at worst assume they don't know how to deal with boundaries very well. I don't jump to racism as an explanation unless i get other signs of it as well.

Unconscious racism is still racism, though. Racism is not (just) about intent. It's about power structures and power relations. A person blissfully unaware that what they said has troubling racist connotations is still being racist, even if they have the best of intentions.

I think it's harmful to frame racism in overly individualistic terms. Racism is not about this person hating black people or that person being prejudiced against people from East Asia. Racism is about systemic problems. A person not being aware of the problems is not proof racism is not at play. If anything, I'd argue such ignorance usually reinforces the idea that racism is doing well.

TL;DR - racism can exist in absence of conscious, malevolent intent. It usually is the case.

Yeah that's an entirely different can of worms that is a lot more disturbing. There's a double standard there from what i've seen. I've heard the argument that racism is not neccesarily intentional, but at the same time even this unintended racism is treated as if it was, with people "guilty" of ignorance or at most insensitivity treated the same way as those who practice willful hatred of the "other"; i.e. in practice the same level of malice is assumed, and they get rebuked just as harshly. I've even encountered cases where that hostility has bred true racism over time. It's a hot mess.

To use an analogy: if you step on my foot, I don't really care, in the moment, whether you meant to or not. I expect you to get off my foot and - ideally - apologise. Not to keep where you are and explain that you didn't mean to, and ask me why I'm so angry if that was an accident.

I think harsh reactions to benign racism are for the exact same reason. The person harmed is often expected to emphatise and educate and understand and stuff like that, and they have more pressing concerns. Their foot is currently hurting, metaphorically. And it has been stepped on dozens if not hundreds of times in the past.

Plus, plenty of actively racist people claim ignorance as a tactic to derail accusations aimed at them, so "he doesn't know any better" itself might be suspicious.

EDIT: also, what double standard? Could you elaborate?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: soulofthereaver on 08 Feb 2019, 02:04
To use an analogy: if you step on my foot, I don't really care, in the moment, whether you meant to or not. I expect you to get off my foot.

I think harsh reactions to benign racism are for the exact same reason. The person harmed is often expected to emphatise and educate and understand and stuff like that, and they have more pressing concerns. Their foot is currently hurting, metaphorically. And it has been stepped on dozens if not hundreds of times in the past.

Plus, plenty of actively racist people claim ignorance as a tactic to derail accusations aimed at them, so "he doesn't know any better" itself might be suspicious.

I understand where they're coming from, and i empathize with the reason, but i still don't think it's right. If someone steps on my foot in a crowd i'm not going to come swinging at them as if they intentionally hit me. And the more people who do lash out like that, the more aggression and distrust that breeds, and the harder it's gonna be to heal those wounds in the long term.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: oddtail on 08 Feb 2019, 02:06
To use an analogy: if you step on my foot, I don't really care, in the moment, whether you meant to or not. I expect you to get off my foot.

I think harsh reactions to benign racism are for the exact same reason. The person harmed is often expected to emphatise and educate and understand and stuff like that, and they have more pressing concerns. Their foot is currently hurting, metaphorically. And it has been stepped on dozens if not hundreds of times in the past.

Plus, plenty of actively racist people claim ignorance as a tactic to derail accusations aimed at them, so "he doesn't know any better" itself might be suspicious.

I understand where they're coming from, and i empathize with the reason, but i still don't think it's right. If someone steps on my foot in a crowd i'm not going to come swinging at them as if they intentionally hit me. And the more people who do lash out like that, the more aggression and distrust that breeds, and the harder it's gonna be to heal those wounds in the long term.

YMMV, but I've seen at least an order of magnitude more claims of non-white people overreacting to racism than, y'know, actual non-white people overreacting to racism. I think it's a bit of a strawman. I've seen plenty of perfectly justified reactions that were framed as "overreaction", too, so there's that as well.

Plus, again with the "stepping on foot" analogy - I tend to cut a lot of slack to a person in pain, who's probably infuriated at having to calmly and politely explain that their foot is not to be stepped upon. Again, and again and again. I have yet to see a person who doesn't lose their cool (at least a little) after the tenth time something bad happens to them, even if it's a minor annoyance.

And I've seen a LOT of people (not jus POC, but e.g. women or people from the LGBT community) who tell stories of always having to be nice and polite and detached from their annoyances and always, ALWAYS explaining stuff to incredulous people, throughout their entire lives. Because the slightest misstep immediately gets framed as them being "angry", "hostile", "irrational" and "overreacting". This narrative is so common that I can't possibly treat it as isolated situations. Seems to be the default to ANYone belonging to a disadvantaged, marginalised or minority group. If you react badly to racism or what-have-you, you're immediately (many people say) the ambassador of your entire race or gender or seual orientation.

So again, I'm not that keen to sympathise with the poor person who was being racist or sexist or whatever, had the best intentions, and now their precious feelings are hurt because someone yelled at them or even, gasp, snarked at them or weren't 100% polite all the time. And, once more, I've seen a LOT of situations like that.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: jesslc on 08 Feb 2019, 02:13
(I wrote this immediately after seeing today's comic, and have only briefly skimmed the existing discussion but Thank you Oddtail).

Thank you Jeph!

As a biracial person living in Australia, I really appreciate Jeph pointing out how annoying and gross this interaction is. I'm usually not much of a fan of Renee but in this comic I like that she starts to get irritated with Peter from the moment he asks Brun where she's from.

It feels very true to my lived experience - which is that in Australia the question "Where are you from?" is usually just a thinly disguised way of asking "Why is your skin that colour?"

(Warning: rant incoming)

Why do I believe that this is what's happening when people ask me where I'm from? Because SO many times when a person asks me the first question, they will not stop questioning me until they get an answer to the second question. If I answer the first question with the simple truth "I'm from Perth", then they want to know where my parents are from or what's my ethnicity or my nationality, etc. The only time the conversation doesn't go this way is if I shortcut the process by answering "Where are you from?" with something that also gives them the answer to their curiosity about my skin colour such as "I was born in here but my mum is from [country X] and my dad is from [country Y]"

If I don't give them the answer they want by saying something like "I'd rather not to talk about my ethnicity/background, let's talk about something else", the conversation typically ends up getting even awkward. Such as explicit comments on my skin tone, for example. It doesn't matter that it's a positive comments, it's still pointing out that they see me as different because of my skin colour. And/or they get annoyed that I won't satisfy their curiosity - like they think their curiosity is more important than my privacy.

I now dread the question "Where are you from?" - like Renee, I instantly regard it with suspicion. Is this going to be another one of the unpleasant conversations I have to keep having if I don't want to talk about my ethnicity with complete strangers? It's very rare that it's asked by someone who happily accepts me answering with an answer I feel comfortable giving (such as "I'm from Perth but both my parents are immigrants") and doesn’t push for details that will explain my skin tone. White people not only get asked "Where are you from?" much less frequently, they also get to answer "I'm from Perth" and have their answer be accepted without further digging.

So... to all people who ask this question, please stop picking the one thing that is visibly different about me to use for your choice of small talk. If you turn out to be someone I want to get to know more, the answer to your curiosity will probably naturally come up in conversation at some point as we share more about our lives as we get to know each other

And if you're not willing to wait until it comes up naturally, then you're not someone I want to know. Your curiosity does not trump my right to only share things I feel comfortable sharing. And this rant aside, my skin colour has much less relevancy to who I am as a person than anything else you could ask about - like my work, or how was my day/weekend, what I do for fun, things I enjoy, etc even with the topic of the weather - you'd likely learn how I don't notice the heat much but I feel the cold really badly (even in our very really quite mild winters).

I don't speak for all biracial or brown skinned people. I'm sure that there are some of them that don't mind this question. But I'm also sure I'm not the only brown person who is f***ing over it.

If you're going to go ahead and ask anyway, please do me (and other not-white people) the courtesy of recognising that born and bred Australians/Americans/Brits/etc can look like us. I don't actually mind people knowing I'm from Perth - it's the way that this question SO often leads to further probing about my ethnicity that makes me uncomfortable.

And please also confront your unconscious biases that people who look like me must be from somewhere else before you make it my problem. Thank you.

Okay rant over. And I didn't even touch on the grossness of him calling Brun exotic. Someone else will have to take that one on.

Oh, one more thing. If you haven't lived this experience, maybe go read this excellent 2016 article written by Megan Markle about this issue and the other ways that biracial and mixed race people are often told that we don't belong. Because it's constant and it's pervasive and I'm sick of it.
https://www.elle.com/uk/life-and-culture/news/a26855/more-than-an-other/
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: neurocase on 08 Feb 2019, 02:23
I'm a little confused by all this talk of "othering" people. Ethnic backgrounds differ. Countries with similar ethnic backgrounds differ, even if not identifiably (as in people from two countries might look similar, but their countries are very different from each other culturally). Why is noticing that someone is different immediately make you a racist asshole? Isn't the whole beauty of human existence the fact that we're all so different, but have so many threads linking us at the same time? Why is pretending that everyone is exactly the same helpful?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Shjade on 08 Feb 2019, 02:29
I feel like Renee got offended a panel too early. Papalymo overstepped his bounds after that for sure, but just asking where someone is from as casually as that seems a little early to get combative without any context.

He's still a massive dick, I just don't get why Renee was already exclaiming with boldface emphasis type before he actually showed his hand.

As an aside from all the in-depth explanations re: why this interaction was inappropriate given above, I'd just like to point out one thing in response to this comment: all we get to have from the comic are stop-motion visuals and text. It's easy to forget that, in the QC-verse, there's body language and tone going on that we have to infer from what we're reading, and it may not always be obvious enough to glean.

It's possible something in the way Peter asked that first question - which, on its own, could have been innocuous - that immediately threw a red flag for Renee as to his intent behind the words themselves, thus her potentially preemptive attempt to derail his line of inquiry.

Edit: as for the post directly above, there is a significant difference between noticing, appreciating, and keeping aware of ethnic/cultural differences between people, and actively drawing attention to those differences by way of suggesting someone else is not the norm/does not fit in by suggesting they are not where they belong, which is one of the many potential readings of asking where someone is from in that it suggests they don't look/act like they could possibly be "from" where they currently are. As in: "I'm cool with you being here, but you clearly don't belong like I do."

You don't have to pretend everyone is the same to avoid "noticing" someone is different in a way that makes them the Out Group.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: pwhodges on 08 Feb 2019, 02:31
Lebanese? With a name like Brunhilde? Wouldn't have picked that!

She's from Lawrence, not Lebanon, though.  But I agree that Brunhilde's a pretty distinctive name anywhere.

Quote
Guess it explains the eyebrows, though...

Not really.  And in any case you shouldn't say that any more than you would follow Peter in suggesting that it explained her skin colour.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: oddtail on 08 Feb 2019, 02:32
I'm a little confused by all this talk of "othering" people. Ethnic backgrounds differ. Countries with similar ethnic backgrounds differ, even if not identifiably (as in people from two countries might look similar, but their countries are very different from each other culturally). Why is noticing that someone is different immediately make you a racist asshole? Isn't the whole beauty of human existence the fact that we're all so different, but have so many threads linking us at the same time? Why is pretending that everyone is exactly the same helpful?

Because:

1) it's up to the person who differs to celebrate their differences. I'm out as sort-of-kind-of-bisexual, but I know plenty of bi people who don't want to discuss such matters with just about anyone. I am comfortable with my nationality, and I've joked about it, and I've had American friends make "polack" jokes in my presence. But if someone commented on my nationality, even in neutral or positive terms, unduly? I'd be probably a little miffed.
2) When people bring up differences, it's often to harm someone.
3) Even when they don't want to harm someone, they have privilege (often to troubling extents) and that often shows. In other words, when a person belonging to the dominant/majority group addresses that fact, it's often at the very least awkward and uncomfortable, because they don't know what they're talking about. And, notably, they often treat their perspective as the default or valid or important one, even unconsciously.
4) When a white person brings up race, or a straight person brings up homosexuality, they do it on their own terms. They engage with something they do not otherwise HAVE to engage with. A POC or a lesbian or an immigrant doesn't get to pick and choose when and how they engage with their minority status. That's why they should be the ones to do the framing and take the initiative.

And yes, I'm aware of the staggering irony of writing 4) as a white, mostly straight, mostly cis dude. Since I've about run out of the little I know about othering and discrimination, because I've only experienced it in extremely minor ways...

...I think I'll let peple who, unlike me, know what the f'k they're talking about take it from here.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: neurocase on 08 Feb 2019, 02:34
So the default behavior is to treat everyone as a grey blob? Still seems strange to me, but I'll accept it's just something that I can't understand since I'm white, and move on.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Shjade on 08 Feb 2019, 02:36
So the default behavior is to treat everyone as a grey blob? Still seems strange to me, but I'll accept it's just something that I can't understand since I'm white, and move on.

You just got two different responses to this the last time you said it, and neither of them was "treat everyone as a grey blob."

At this point I have to conclude you're making these statements in bad faith rather than out of ignorance.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: neurocase on 08 Feb 2019, 02:41
So the default behavior is to treat everyone as a grey blob? Still seems strange to me, but I'll accept it's just something that I can't understand since I'm white, and move on.

You just got two different responses to this the last time you said it, and neither of them was "treat everyone as a grey blob."

At this point I have to conclude you're making these statements in bad faith rather than out of ignorance.

Not bad faith at all. I've read and re-read the replies, and I still have the immense sense that I just don't "get it" beyond the general idea of "don't bring up anything about a person that could be viewed as making them different, even with positive intention". I'm not particularly skilled at interpreting social cues through text. Also, I just noticed that I had posted the reply above before I saw that you had edited your post.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: oddtail on 08 Feb 2019, 02:43
I just don't "get it" beyond the general idea of "don't bring up anything about a person that could be viewed as making them different, even with positive intention".

I would say that's a good first step. You don't have to pretend people aren't different, but it's up to anyone to bring up their own differences, and give you a roadmap on how to discuss the subject. It's not anywhere the same as "treating them as a gray blob". It's about treating them as a person, and part of being a person is not being reduced to one characteristic when and if you don't WANT that to be the focus.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: neurocase on 08 Feb 2019, 02:46
What I ask now, I don't ask sarcastically, but genuinely: I'm an expat in my country; up until now, should I have been assuming that anyone asking me where I was from didn't think I should be here? Because that genuinely didn't occur to me. I was always happy to answer because I assumed it was out of curiosity, but now I'm a little unsure what to think :/
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Case on 08 Feb 2019, 02:49
Lebanese? With a name like Brunhilde? Wouldn't have picked that!

Guess it explains the eyebrows, though...

People have two parents, mind ...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Shjade on 08 Feb 2019, 02:59
Different places are, as you noted, different, as are people. If it doesn't bother you, it doesn't bother you, and that's good!

To simplify the points made here: treat people like people, not tourist attractions. That's all.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Milayna on 08 Feb 2019, 03:19
I'm a little confused by all this talk of "othering" people. Ethnic backgrounds differ. Countries with similar ethnic backgrounds differ, even if not identifiably (as in people from two countries might look similar, but their countries are very different from each other culturally). Why is noticing that someone is different immediately make you a racist asshole? Isn't the whole beauty of human existence the fact that we're all so different, but have so many threads linking us at the same time? Why is pretending that everyone is exactly the same helpful?
It sounds like you come from a demographic group that will never be seriously targeted for its differences wherever you are and so get the privilege of not really having to care.

I also have or appear to have almost every form of privilege. I can't speak for other people's experience nor fully understand it. But as a privilege-haver I can acknowledge that they are valid and look outside of myself to at least try to understand.

"Why is noticing that someone is different immediately make you a racist asshole?" Why do you believe that it is other peoples' responsibly to justify it to you/work out how to ram understanding that you can never fully get, into your soul? You don't need to *KNOW* it - just acknowledge that that's how it is in their lives, and that you need to accommodate that. Refusal to give that respect, ultimately, is what comes across as "racist asshole".

So the default behavior is to treat everyone as a grey blob? Still seems strange to me, but I'll accept it's just something that I can't understand since I'm white, and move on.

Posted mine before getting to see this. Thanks.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Akima on 08 Feb 2019, 03:37
I'm a little confused by all this talk of "othering" people. Ethnic backgrounds differ. Countries with similar ethnic backgrounds differ, even if not identifiably (as in people from two countries might look similar, but their countries are very different from each other culturally). Why is noticing that someone is different immediately make you a racist asshole?
Basically, because history. Lots of very bad history. The noticing of difference has far, far more often had malign consequences than good ones, so blurting out a comment on it, especially on very short acquaintance, is not generally a good idea.

I'm an Australian*, but people routinely "notice my difference", and call me "Chinese", which is essentially denying my nationality and treating my citizenship as somehow not "real". I've been told that I "don't look Australian", by people who "notice my difference" too. Suffice it to say, the consequences of having people "notice my difference" are not usually inclusive, or pleasant.

*I am an ethnic Han, and was born in China, but I am a naturalised Australian citizen.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Wombat on 08 Feb 2019, 03:40
What I ask now, I don't ask sarcastically, but genuinely: I'm an expat in my country; up until now, should I have been assuming that anyone asking me where I was from didn't think I should be here? Because that genuinely didn't occur to me. I was always happy to answer because I assumed it was out of curiosity, but now I'm a little unsure what to think :/
Being asked where you're from is different as a white person than a person of color, at least in America. I'm white and currently living, like, ten miles from where I was born, and I get asked where I'm from all the time because I have a speech impediment that sounds to some people like an accent. When I'm asked, it's with a tone of excitement, while when my friends who are people of color are asked, it's less excitement and more, "So, you're different." It's hard to explain the difference, but I've found it noticeable. It also happens on top of a mountain of additional othering.

There's also a difference in an accent ("accent" in my case) vs skin color as promptimg the "Where are you from?" question. An accent could suggest that someone personally emigrated from somewhere or moved a notable distance, while skin color does no such thing. My friend who I mentioned in my previous story was born in the same hospital I was. People assume I'm American by looking at me, but don't assume the same about her, when all we've done is exist, not even speaking to the people yet.

It also still gets tiring to be asked where I'm from. I usually go into explaining I have a speech impediment, but sometimes I'll just say, "I'm from here," if I'm in my city, or the name of my city if I'm not, or Michigan if I'm in another state. And sometimes when I just do that, people insist that I'm wrong, which is a real barrel of monkeys.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: BenRG on 08 Feb 2019, 04:31
So, here's a little bit of trivia obtained through Google and Wikipedia (so, blame them if I'm getting this wrong :-P). Lawrence, Massachusetts appears to have a past strongly linked to Germanic immigrants. So, if Brun was born there, a given name of 'Brunhilde' is not entirely unthinkable.

That aside, I think I posted this yesterday but I'm pretty sure that the big gathering Jeph is going to be drawing is a normal day shift at The Horrible Revelation, Brun's place of work. I'm thinking that she's going to be asking Elliott and/or Clinton to help her understand some of what Peter said and some of Renee's behaviour. I strongly suspect that the question: "Do you think I'm 'exotic'?" and possibly "Do you admire my butt in passing?" may be included there. The gent in question's flop-sweat attempt to dance around those questions may be quite comedic! Naturally, Brun will treat the whole conversation as something quite dryly factual and may be genuinely puzzled if the guys are too flustered to answer.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 08 Feb 2019, 04:51
An even quicker search tells me that there are 50,000 Lebanese people living Germany. So its quite likely Brun's parents lived in Germany or were from Germany before moving to the States.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Tai Fanboi on 08 Feb 2019, 04:52
So, here's a little bit of trivia obtained through Google and Wikipedia (so, blame them if I'm getting this wrong :-P). Lawrence, Massachusetts appears to have a past strongly linked to Germanic immigrants. So, if Brun was born there, a given name of 'Brunhilde' is not entirely unthinkable.

Add in that Germany and Lebanon have been quite friendly diplomatic wise since the late 1700's - 1800's.  It was considered the "Switzerland of the Middle East" and was a prime location for many German businessmen and a popular vacation spot.  Many hotels in Lebanon were opened and run by German business men who brought in other's for cultural exchanges and tourism, and co-partnered teams of Lebanese and German archaeologists excavated the ancient sites of Baalbek, Anjar, Tell el-Burak and Kamid el-Loz.  Germany also provided support to rebuild after the Lebanese Civil War. 
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: 94ssd on 08 Feb 2019, 05:30
I didn't need a reason to love Brun more, but now I have one.

+1 for representing Arab characters and being casual about it without making their religion a huge deal. Growing up I was never able to see Arabs represented in popular fiction other than as villains or at best victims.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: eschaton on 08 Feb 2019, 05:50
This is one of the strips that makes me love Brun a little more. She really has the most healthy attitude about ethnicity. She's not Lebanese-American, she's Brun from Lawrence whose family, when she thinks about it, are Lebanese (FWIW, I wouldn't be surprised if they came to the US as refugees in the 1980s when Lebanon was a lawless war-zone). Everything about her ethnic background is just set-dressing for her because who she is as a person defines her.

Lawrence MA has a Lebanese community IRL, which dates back to around 1900.  Almost all Lebanese Christians, FWIW, so it's very unlikely Brun is Muslim. 

I'm honestly a bit surprised Brun got this question though.  Most Lebanese people I've known IRL (I've known a bunch) are pretty much physically indistinguishable from Italians or Greeks, and are basically given white privilege in the U.S. 
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: 94ssd on 08 Feb 2019, 06:01
This is one of the strips that makes me love Brun a little more. She really has the most healthy attitude about ethnicity. She's not Lebanese-American, she's Brun from Lawrence whose family, when she thinks about it, are Lebanese (FWIW, I wouldn't be surprised if they came to the US as refugees in the 1980s when Lebanon was a lawless war-zone). Everything about her ethnic background is just set-dressing for her because who she is as a person defines her.

Lawrence MA has a Lebanese community IRL, which dates back to around 1900.  Almost all Lebanese Christians, FWIW, so it's very unlikely Brun is Muslim. 

I'm honestly a bit surprised Brun got this question though.  Most Lebanese people I've known IRL (I've known a bunch) are pretty much physically indistinguishable from Italians or Greeks, and are basically given white privilege in the U.S.

I don't disagree that having a lighter skin tone does give advantages over other minorities. But I'd dispute the notion that that translates to 'basically having white privilege.' I've dealt with harassment and bullying all my life, related both to my skin tone and my unmistakably Middle Eastern last name. I of course am more fortunate a. being half Arab and b. living in today's society, in the sense that my grandfather had to deal with being attacked when he was young, and having his business vandalized after September 11th. He of course grew up in a different time, and his skin tone is unmistakably non-white, not dissimilar to how Brun is drawn (although to be fair to your comment, he is much more tanned than most other people from the Levant I've met, including my grandma, now that I think about it). I've also been harrassed based on people's assumption that I'm Hispanic.

I'm sure it depends greatly on where you live, and the fact that I live in the South doesn't help. But there are things that happen. 
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Lear on 08 Feb 2019, 06:42
+1 for representing Arab characters and being casual about it without making their religion a huge deal. Growing up I was never able to see Arabs represented in popular fiction other than as villains or at best victims.

I'm a bit confused now.
As one of those priviledged white men who'd have thought nothing of asking someone where they are from, I can see how that question could be seen as putting labels on people, even if unintentional, and that those labels should not matter. Characters/People are not defined by their labels, they just have characteristics - and asking might be misunderstood. Got it.

But if so, how could it simultanously be remarkable to have an "Arab character"? Not to step on your toes, 94ssd, but despite her family appearently coming from Lebanon, up to this post it did not even cross my mind to see Brun as an Arab. Is a - so far - throwaway line about someones parents nationality (if even) enough to define a character like that?  :psyduck:

Somehow, it gave me flashbacks to english language class tought by an American exchange teacher about political correctness. It was really strange - her goal was to show as images for us to describe, so she could show us what about it is politically incorrect. Too bad she started with a 'normal' looking guy and, after five minutes of silence, explained to us that he was jewish looking, and why he was jewish looking (large nose etc.), only so we would know not to call him jewish looking. But even worse, the guy in the wheelchair was not the guy in the wheelchair, he was the nice young gentleman with short blonde hair. So, if you were at a party looking for him, you'd describe him like that, not mentioning the wheelchair. So pretty much all I learned from her is not to mention obvious, visible characteristic, and how to call someone something they might not be based on vague characteristics.
Why I mention this? Because this feels the same again, I have no idea how to make sense of the information given, and is so disruptive to my worldview. It's not that I'm unwilling to change, but I really need good explainations to understand it.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: TV4Fun on 08 Feb 2019, 06:47
Uh guys, Papadapoulos wasn't wrong because he asked Brun about her ethnicity, though that part was a little weird. It was more the very openly creeping on her thing that was wrong.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 08 Feb 2019, 07:46
Yeah, let's just be clear here for a second.

Pascal said Brun was "exotic". He was clearly eyeing her up as a sexual target. That much was clear in Thursday's comic. Renee's response today was not to a seemingly racist comment, but because she knew he was hankering for something else.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Zebediah on 08 Feb 2019, 08:33
Well, that was a long read.

A few general comments, not necessarily directed at anyone specific:

There have been established Lebanese communities in the US for well over a century. It is in no way unusual or “exotic” - it’s just one ethnicity in this crazy-quilt that makes up America. Name an ethnic group, we probably have it here. So Peter is way out of line on that score. There are no “exotic” people.

I got a definite vibe from Peter that when he heard “Lebanese” he thought “Hey, there’s a notch I don’t have in my belt yet!” Looks like Renee interpreted it the same way. Being attracted to Brun is one thing - reducing her to an ethnicity and being attracted to that is something else altogether.

And asking someone about their ethnic history is ok if you’ve gotten to know them as a person at least a little bit first. It’s not ok to ask someone you don’t know about it, because it comes across as you trying to define them by their ethnicity. (And you probably are.)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: sitnspin on 08 Feb 2019, 08:42
"Where are you from" is code for "Why aren't you white?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAZTWRqaAwA
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Oenone on 08 Feb 2019, 09:09
I get why Renee was annoyed now. I bet he thought he was fucking someone “exotic” and expressed surprise Renee is a regular ol black person.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Oenone on 08 Feb 2019, 09:19
Also, it’s othering because white Americans don’t ask other white Americans where they are from. It’s a question that implies you aren’t yourself American.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 08 Feb 2019, 09:19
I get why Renee was annoyed now. I bet he thought he was fucking someone “exotic” and expressed surprise Renee is a regular ol black person.

Not quite. It was more as Zebediah said, Pernando was probably thinking "time for another notch on the belt, another conquest".
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Oenone on 08 Feb 2019, 09:24
Keep in mind that Tomi Lauren just tweeted something about how the votes of Americans with 4 grandparents born in the US are more significant than the votes of others, in a way where she was using lineage as a synecdoche for race. I’m someone with a stereotypically nonwhite surname, with all 4 grandparents US citizens. I’m way more likely to have my “right” to American identity questioned than Lahrens and I’m not the voter she imagines when she tweets stuff like that.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Oenone on 08 Feb 2019, 09:28
The interrogation of belonging is part of treating WOC as sexual “conquests”
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Milayna on 08 Feb 2019, 10:23
Keep in mind that Tomi Lauren just tweeted something about how the votes of Americans with 4 grandparents born in the US are more significant than the votes of others, in a way where she was using lineage as a synecdoche for race. I’m someone with a stereotypically nonwhite surname, with all 4 grandparents US citizens. I’m way more likely to have my “right” to American identity questioned than Lahrens and I’m not the voter she imagines when she tweets stuff like that.
She was also pretty obviously invoking Grandfather Clauses because you can't spell "overton window" without "black people aren't really americans and should in fact be slaves"
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: eschaton on 08 Feb 2019, 11:13
I get why Renee was annoyed now. I bet he thought he was fucking someone “exotic” and expressed surprise Renee is a regular ol black person.

As an aside, Jeph has gotten much, much better at drawing black people.  When he first introduced Renee to the comic years ago, I thought she was South Asian like Padma, because of how she was drawn.  This was a good retcon. 

Though Dale still doesn't really look black to me. 
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: TV4Fun on 08 Feb 2019, 11:21
As an aside, Jeph has gotten much, much better at drawing black people.  When he first introduced Renee to the comic years ago, I thought she was South Asian like Padma, because of how she was drawn.  This was a good retcon. 

Though Dale still doesn't really look black to me. 
Yeah, I'd say Dale looks more South Indian to me, though perhaps you should just try asking Dale where he's from.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 08 Feb 2019, 11:30
Thus completely explaining why not to do it.

It would be an easy mistake for a decent person to make. On the train, white strangers will ask each other where they are from. Same words but not really the same question.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Case on 08 Feb 2019, 11:41
So, here's a little bit of trivia obtained through Google and Wikipedia (so, blame them if I'm getting this wrong :-P). Lawrence, Massachusetts appears to have a past strongly linked to Germanic immigrants. So, if Brun was born there, a given name of 'Brunhilde' is not entirely unthinkable.

Add in that Germany and Lebanon have been quite friendly diplomatic wise since the late 1700's - 1800's.  It was considered the "Switzerland of the Middle East" and was a prime location for many German businessmen and a popular vacation spot.  Many hotels in Lebanon were opened and run by German business men who brought in other's for cultural exchanges and tourism, and co-partnered teams of Lebanese and German archaeologists excavated the ancient sites of Baalbek, Anjar, Tell el-Burak and Kamid el-Loz.  Germany also provided support to rebuild after the Lebanese Civil War.

An even quicker search tells me that there are 50,000 Lebanese people living Germany. So its quite likely Brun's parents lived in Germany or were from Germany before moving to the States.

Ok, just to preempt misunderstandings about the name Brunhilde being some quintessential German name or smth.: It is very much not.

Very few contemporary German women (roughly 1:100.000) bear the name of a Visigoth princess (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brunhilda_of_Austrasia) that translates into "she-who-fights-clad-in-armour" in a language that nobody has spoken in a millennium.

The most popular the name ever got in Germany was in 1925 - ranked place 63 - and that was probably largely due to the Wagner-opera (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Ring_des_Nibelungen) and a fad for 'Germanic' names (The German peoples are old as balls. Germany the nation, otoh, is barely 150. The most quintessentially German question is "what does it mean to be German?". Naming your offspring 'He-who-bathes-his-famous-sword-in-the-blood-of-enemies' or whatnot was apparently considered a viable answer at the time).

And that's not considering the cruelty inherent in naming a child of Lebanese heritage after a legendary 'Norse' (*) Warrior Princess that popular imagination holds to be some blue-eyed, blonde-haired, milk-skinned ideal of the prototypical central European woman.

Note also that the Ring der Nibelungen was very much part of attempts to weave a re-imagined heroic Germanic past into a national origin myth which birthed the Völkisch (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lkisch) brand of racism of the Nazis - 'That private form Austria' was a devoted fan of Wagners.


(*) The actual historic Brunhild was born in the Visigoth capital of Toledo - As in Toledo, Spain.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 08 Feb 2019, 11:48
Fair enough and thank you for that information, Case.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Milayna on 08 Feb 2019, 11:53
If anything, it reminds me that the eidolon (summon) (Stand) of the black guy in Final Fantasy 13 is Brynhildr. I don't know if it's just a coincidence that two fictional works decided to go with associating POC with that name or if there's something more to it. Interesting history though, Case =)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Case on 08 Feb 2019, 12:46
Interesting history though, Case =)

Just wanted to point out that a lot of it is about as 'historic' as Camelot, and substantially younger. :laugh:

(And a lot of it isn't even German in any meaning of the word ...)


Lebanese? With a name like Brunhilde? Wouldn't have picked that!

Guess it explains the eyebrows, though...

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Shjade on 08 Feb 2019, 14:09
It would be an easy mistake for a decent person to make. On the train, white strangers will ask each other where they are from. Same words but not really the same question.

Being in a transition space like that can also change the context considerably. Like I could see it coming up in casual conversation between any group of people who get to chatting on an international flight, where everyone's state of belonging is much more up in the air (pun wholly intended).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Quantum Glass on 08 Feb 2019, 14:33
Also, it’s othering because white Americans don’t ask other white Americans where they are from. It’s a question that implies you aren’t yourself American.

...I'll confess that I actually do this.

I mean it in a "so what part of the country did you grow up in?" kind of way, as a means to show polite interest in the other party without getting too personal.

I hadn't considered the implications. I need to rethink my stock smalltalk.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: hedgie on 08 Feb 2019, 14:47
The last time I did this, I hope I didn't fuck it up too badly.  I asked a friend's husband (with a VERY Japanese surname) where in Hawaii he was from, 'cos I had assumed that he was from there given to a total obsession with everything there[1] and given the state's demographics, it seemed reasonable.  He replied that he was actually from $local_area, and didn't seem offended.  I still wonder if it was wrong to do so.

[1] as in peppering in words like "aloha" and "mahalo" frequently, going there 3-4 times a year, only playing Hawaiian music in his car, etc.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: DSL on 08 Feb 2019, 16:45
The last time I visited a city of any size, I smiled to myself in delight as I left the store next to my hotel, thinking of the counter clerk of Southeast Asian appearance but with a name tag bearing a very French name, conversing in fluent Spanish with the customer ahead of me, and how different that sight would have been at a store of the same chain in my hometown.

I see now what a monster I was.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 08 Feb 2019, 17:43
A couple of years ago, my father was in hospital after having a hernia repaired. He was on the ward and one day when I was visiting him, he got very curious about one of the nurses. She looked Hispanic, had a Hispanic sounding name, but he was insisting that I ask her where she was from. I told him I couldn't do that, its rude and who cares where she's from. So eventually he just asked her. And she replied "Tralee" with a very thick Kerry accent (County Kerry being infamous for having an accent indecipherable to anyone not from Kerry). Everybody laughed. She explained its not the first time she's been asked and it wouldn't be the last. But it was an icebreaker and my father quickly became a favourite patient of hers.

People are naturally curious where others come from. In some instances, its a conversation starter. I've worked in Tourism and you have to ask people where they are from, you need to know so you can help them, even if it was just to use Google Translate to get them directions to a hotel or a bed and breakfast.

But it is very much dependent on the context. If someone is on a train, they've got a suitcase, you're going to be curious about what kind of journey they've made. Its a conversation, you're showing an interest in another person and the both of you are passing the time.

That said, when you're in a strange apartment, everyone is in a partial state of dress and you're a horndog looking to make another notch on your belt, then the question marks you as a colossal douche.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: eschaton on 08 Feb 2019, 19:21
I'm reminded of the third verse from the Murs song DSWG.  A great hip-hop song BTW. 

Quote
Now for you half and half of mixed girls
I know what the battle be
Every time you go out it's "whats your nationality?"
Everybody always wanna dig up in ya background
You don't look, now how does that sound?
I couldn't tell you were, oh is that right?
Do you take it as a compliment or start up a fight?
Venezuelan and Indian, 'Rican and Dominican
Japanese or Portuguese, Quarter of Brazilian
White and Korean, Black and Pinay
I could find out later
It don't matter, ya fly
It don't really matter to most of us guys
We just need an excuse to get close or say "hi"
I know they call you stuck up
Ya think you're too pretty
Spread rumors about you all throughout the city
So much attention, so many haters
But don't be bitter, you'll be better for it later
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 08 Feb 2019, 20:53
The last time I visited a city of any size, I smiled to myself in delight as I left the store next to my hotel, thinking of the counter clerk of Southeast Asian appearance but with a name tag bearing a very French name, conversing in fluent Spanish with the customer ahead of me, and how different that sight would have been at a store of the same chain in my hometown.

I see now what a monster I was.

How so? You smiled with delight at being in a multicultural situation as opposed to making someone uncomfortable by treating them as Other.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 08 Feb 2019, 21:12
What I ask now, I don't ask sarcastically, but genuinely: I'm an expat in my country; up until now, should I have been assuming that anyone asking me where I was from didn't think I should be here? Because that genuinely didn't occur to me. I was always happy to answer because I assumed it was out of curiosity, but now I'm a little unsure what to think :/

It could be straightforward curiosity if you're not from a marginalized group and being treated with suspicion.

When Akima wrote just now about people saying "You don't look Australian", she didn't mention that one of them was a US border guard at LAX. See the ICE thread in DISCUSS for an idea how bad that could have gotten.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: brasca on 09 Feb 2019, 06:32
Seeing as how Jeph deemed this dude a dick there’s nothing to dispute, but I do wonder if his reason for asking the question was based on looks or how Brun sounds.  Does she have an accent and if she does would it be rude to ask where she’s from? 
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 09 Feb 2019, 07:05
I imagine Brun sounds very flat with a monotone. No inflections or anything like that. I mean nothing we've seen indicates she has much of an accent, no use of regional dialect or slang.

So it seems he asked purely based on how she looks.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 09 Feb 2019, 13:13
I think there is confusion because two ethically different questions can be asked using the same words.

On the train, a place where nobody lives, it means "Can we make stupid small talk?".

From Pericles to Brun it was "What kind of Other are you?".
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Near Lurker on 09 Feb 2019, 21:22
I have to think if Piro'd been smarter, he could've asked about the Arabs of Lawrence.

Regardless, her name was clearly given to her by a soothsayer who saw her surrounded by flames.  (And then the gas company blew up her hometown.)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Tova on 09 Feb 2019, 21:30
Seeing as how Jeph deemed this dude a dick there’s nothing to dispute...

Not that I wish to dispute Jeph's value judgement on this occasion - I happen to agree with it. But. In general, I disagree with the notion that any value judgement decreed by Jeph is beyond dispute.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: traroth on 10 Feb 2019, 02:03
I would say: don't be that guy, even if you are a woman.

Last time I checked, racist women was a thing that existed. In my country, a woman is even the leader of the main far-right racist party.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: BenRG on 10 Feb 2019, 02:17
Seeing as how Jeph deemed this dude a dick there’s nothing to dispute...

Not that I wish to dispute Jeph's value judgement on this occasion - I happen to agree with it. But. In general, I disagree with the notion that any value judgement decreed by Jeph is beyond dispute.

Let's put it this way (and it is a good summation of how I view the 'word of god' argument): As the writer, Jeph knows what the characters are meant to be. So, if he says a character is meant to be an asshole, then they are an asshole, even if he doesn't quite nail portraying them like that.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 10 Feb 2019, 03:18
In this case I think he painted a clear picture of what Percival is.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Tova on 10 Feb 2019, 04:08
Let's put it this way (and it is a good summation of how I view the 'word of god' argument): As the writer, Jeph knows what the characters are meant to be. So, if he says a character is meant to be an asshole, then they are an asshole, even if he doesn't quite nail portraying them like that.

Sorry, but I don't care about how Jeph meant to portray the character. 'Arsehole' is a purely subjective viewpoint, and the way I personally feel about the character is the way I feel about them.

Shall we discuss Tilly? A character Jeph considered, in your own words, to be cute and funny? Shall we ask everyone whether Tilly is cute and funny? Is everyone obliged to feel that way about them?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Tova on 10 Feb 2019, 04:13
On a separate note, I find it interesting that the common thread between at least three characters disliked by forumites is that this dislike has been expressed, in each of these three cases, by deliberately mangling their name.

Given the importance normally placed on getting names right, it makes sense that this is an expression of resentment here.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: brasca on 10 Feb 2019, 05:11
Seeing as how Jeph deemed this dude a dick there’s nothing to dispute...

Not that I wish to dispute Jeph's value judgement on this occasion - I happen to agree with it. But. In general, I disagree with the notion that any value judgement decreed by Jeph is beyond dispute.

I stand by what I wrote, but mostly wanted to be clever by fitting as many D words in my sentence as possible.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 10 Feb 2019, 05:13
On a separate note, I find it interesting that the common thread between at least three characters disliked by forumites is that this dislike has been expressed, in each of these three cases, by deliberately mangling their name.

Given the importance normally placed on getting names right, it makes sense that this is an expression of resentment here.

Depends on how you look at it. In one instance, the misnaming of a character was only done until they actually said that they didn't like it and then immediately stopped.

But considering how odious Peter has turned out to be and how disgusting his interactions are, not to mention that he's meant to be a disposable lay, forgotten in the morning, his misnaming is more of a running gag. And of course, that takes power away from a guy like him. In essence, everyone is saying that he isn't worth a second thought, let alone remembering his name.

Seeing as how Jeph deemed this dude a dick there’s nothing to dispute...

Not that I wish to dispute Jeph's value judgement on this occasion - I happen to agree with it. But. In general, I disagree with the notion that any value judgement decreed by Jeph is beyond dispute.

That's the thing, we can discuss anything in the comic until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, the comic is not an interactive medium. It is not a forum for discussion, but a podium where Jeph ultimately shares his opinions regarding different topics. He is by no means as opinionated or as preachy as some other comics that the least said, the better, but Jeph is the writer and the artist. He has the last say on a particular topic or character. All we can do is discuss it on the forum, after the fact.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: oddtail on 10 Feb 2019, 06:51
Seeing as how Jeph deemed this dude a dick there’s nothing to dispute...

Not that I wish to dispute Jeph's value judgement on this occasion - I happen to agree with it. But. In general, I disagree with the notion that any value judgement decreed by Jeph is beyond dispute.

That's the thing, we can discuss anything in the comic until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, the comic is not an interactive medium. It is not a forum for discussion, but a podium where Jeph ultimately shares his opinions regarding different topics. He is by no means as opinionated or as preachy as some other comics that the least said, the better, but Jeph is the writer and the artist. He has the last say on a particular topic or character. All we can do is discuss it on the forum, after the fact.

I see this reasoning as a bit backwards. Nobody's saying anything about changing the comic. But when Jeph conveys a particular opinion or viewpoint via the comic, the discussion in the forum doesn't automatically have to agree with that opinion/viewpoint. "Seeing as how Jeph deemed this dude a dick there’s nothing to dispute..." clearly indicates otherwise, unless I'm completely misunderstanding something. What would even be the point of discussion of the comic if every character was to be viewed by everyone exactly the way the author sees them.

I mean, this particular character, written in this particular way, is ABSOLUTELY a dick. But not because that's the opinion of the author (or because he "deemed this dude a dick"). There are characters that are presented by the comic, possibly consciously, a certain way, and on whom forumites have had different opinions than the comic's narrative seems to point to.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: jwhouk on 10 Feb 2019, 07:38
Jeph says he's drawing crowd scenes for a few weeks. Why do you think he has to?

Hannelore is on the space station for her dad's birthday party    5 (13.5%)
Another impromptu party in the centre of town (no beer sledding, alas)    1 (2.7%)
A busy day at Coffee of Doom    9 (24.3%)
Bubbles takes Faye to a robot night-club to show her how synthetics party    2 (5.4%)
Either Elliot or Clinton or both take Roko to a human night-club to show her how humans party    4 (10.8%)
There is a party at the apartment; lots of people show up    0 (0%)
The town fayre has come around and Faye wants Union Robotics to have a presence there    3 (8.1%)
Opening night at the LEGAL Ultimate Robot Fighting Championship    11 (29.7%)
Other (specify in comment)    2 (5.4%)

Total Members Voted: 37
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Tova on 10 Feb 2019, 11:47
Depends on how you look at it. In one instance, the misnaming of a character was only done until they actually said that they didn't like it and then immediately stopped.

I recall it differently. It stopped when the mods ordered it to stop.

Quote
But considering how odious Peter has turned out to be and how disgusting his interactions are, not to mention that he's meant to be a disposable lay, forgotten in the morning, his misnaming is more of a running gag. And of course, that takes power away from a guy like him. In essence, everyone is saying that he isn't worth a second thought, let alone remembering his name.

Sure. That's all true. And this running gag absolutely would not be taking place with someone people liked. That's all I'm saying.

He has the last say on a particular topic or character. All we can do is discuss it on the forum, after the fact.

The only thing not up for dispute is what's on the page. And what's on the page is that Jeph thinks we shouldn't be that guy.

"Peter is a dick" is an interpretation of the text. It is not an objective fact regarding the character. Jeph wrote a sleazy objectifying womanizer. He just happens to think that such people are dicks. Our own opinions about such a character absolutely are up for debate.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 10 Feb 2019, 12:12
Well put, and answers the question I was about to ask, which is what the scope for dispute about Pops is.

Priam is a sleazy objectifying womanizer "in reality" but there could be argument about what we should think about that.

Given the culture here it's logical to expect most people would agree on their opinion of a sleazy objectifying womanizer.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: DSL on 10 Feb 2019, 15:52
Worth noting that His P-ness's name is misremembered and mangled in the comic. I thought the 4-um was just running with the joke.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: hedgie on 10 Feb 2019, 16:34
True.  As it was for Tilly/Taffy when they first arrived.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: DSL on 10 Feb 2019, 17:27
Unlike Phil-in-the-blank, though, in which the in-universe mangling seems to be for showing us what an interchangeable part he is, I never could figure out a narrative purpose for Hannelore mangling Tilly's name, unless it was to show us how much Hannelore resented her as a symbol of Beatrice's meddling in her life.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Tova on 10 Feb 2019, 18:22
I'd like to declare my own personal bias on this topic.

My own real-life name has an unusual spelling and is frequently misspelled.

I am pretty forgiving in general when people misspell my name because the spelling is so unusual, and I certainly appreciate that mistakes can and do happen. I can't deny, though, that I get a little warm and fuzzy feeling whenever someone takes the trouble to get it right from the very beginning. I do get disconcerted when people on Facebook misspell it even though the correct spelling is right there on the screen in front of them (true story), or when I fill out an application form and the company fails to transcribe my name correctly (also a true story).

Malicious misspelling upsets me. I find it to be childish at best. Even for Australian politicians such as Tony Abbott - as hilarious as Mister Rabbit is, constructive political dialogue suffers as a result of this schoolyard nonsense.

Long story short - I find deliberate mangling of someone's name to be hurtful and, as a running joke, unfunny.

If a character got, for example, Marten's or Hannelore's name wrong in a single comic, would this, too, turn into a running joke? I suspect not, because those characters are popular, and I think the mods would come down on it like a ton of bricks. The mere fact that one character got a name wrong does not, in my opinion, cut it as an excuse to make a running joke out of it when we know what the character's correct name is.

Maybe your argument is that Jeph was making that joke and so it's fine for us to continue with it. I would have to grudgingly concede that, but I have an issue with this kind of thing in general, particularly with regards to shipping, as a continuing instance of do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do. But that's a topic for another day.

What rule are we operating under?

"... please try to spell people's (and characters') names right - it's only polite."
Or is it:
"... please try to spell characters' names right, unless a character gets an unpopular character's name wrong, in which case all bets are off."

Feel free to call Peter a dick, a philanderer, call him out for othering - whatever you like. But even though it's impossible to hurt a finctional character's feelings, the day will come when someone who identifies strongly with the character you are poking fun at will decide this is not the community for them (less likely for someone like Peter, more likely for someone like Tilly). They will turn away from this place because they will see us as the dicks.

And you know what? They will probably have a point.

My two cents. Carry on.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Penquin47 on 10 Feb 2019, 22:03
When Delilah misremembered Marten's name as Mark, some people in the forums ran with that for a bit.  Sometimes, there have been jokes about "I wonder what Faye's roommate is up to... what was his name?  <insert list of names beginning with M here>."
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Tova on 10 Feb 2019, 22:26
When Delilah misremembered Marten's name as Mark, some people in the forums ran with that for a bit.

I'll have to take your word for that because I don't really recall. Funny you should bring that example up though, because that was a random hookup as well, right? Essentially Jeph making the same joke. Interesting, no?

The whole thing with people joking that they've forgotten Marten's name because he hasn't appeared in ages doesn't bother me quite as much, for reasons I can't really justify (although it has gotten a bit old).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: OldGoat on 10 Feb 2019, 23:01
As consistently as noobs are corrected for calling the God of This Comic Universe "Jeff," there is a certain irony in the tolerance displayed this past week for mangling the pickled pepper picking pecker's name.  If we must see him again perhaps Mr. Piper will perturb Faye who will no doubt please the population present in these precincts by punching the pompous poultroon's protruding proboscis.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: BenRG on 10 Feb 2019, 23:33
Seriously, mate, how long did you sweat over a notepad to compose that?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Nepiophage on 10 Feb 2019, 23:44

Feel free to call Peter a dick, a philanderer, call him out for othering - whatever you like. But even though it's impossible to hurt a finctional character's feelings, the day will come when someone who identifies strongly with the character you are poking fun at will decide this is not the community for them (less likely for someone like Peter, more likely for someone like Tilly). They will turn away from this place because they will see us as the dicks.

And you know what? They will probably have a point.

This could be happening already. The number of people voting in the poll has fallen by 20% in the last year.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Tova on 10 Feb 2019, 23:51
Seriously, mate, how long did you sweat over a notepad to compose that?

Dunno, mate. I didn't time it. I just typed it straight into the edit box.

Why do you ask? Not out of admiration, I imagine.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: BenRG on 11 Feb 2019, 00:02
Seriously, mate, how long did you sweat over a notepad to compose that?

Dunno, mate. I didn't time it. I just typed it straight into the edit box.

Why do you ask? Not out of admiration, I imagine.

I was talking to OldGoat, not you.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Tova on 11 Feb 2019, 00:21
Oops, my bad! Sorry.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: OldGoat on 11 Feb 2019, 03:27
Seriously, mate, how long did you sweat over a notepad to compose that?
No sweat and not long at all.  I'm worthless at constructing rhymes, but alliteration just rolls out of my skull.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: dutchrvl on 11 Feb 2019, 05:29
Also, it’s othering because white Americans don’t ask other white Americans where they are from. It’s a question that implies you aren’t yourself American.

I get asked at least once a week where I am from, and I am as white as can be (have been in the US for >10 yrs now). I have always assumed the question was merely out of interest and been happy to talk about my background. There is still such a thing as genuine interest in people's stories....
To presume the same question to my non-white fellow expats is always coming from a bad place goes a bit far. My gf certainly doesn't presume that (ethnic Thai but in US for >20 years now, also gets asked regularly), should she?   

I don't disagree with the premise that for those with non-white ethnical backgrounds, the reason for being asked "where are you from" may more often be negative (and perhaps sometimes racist, yes), but depending on context/situation the question in fact may often be simply curiosity/interest in your story....
One of my friends (who is, like @Akima, ethnic Han, grew up in Canada and the USA) has been living in the Netherlands for a couple of years now.
For her, she took issue with the question where she is from the first year or so after moving to the Netherlands, for similar reasons as many have pointed out above. For her, it took about a year before she realized that the vast majority of people asking where simply doing so because they were interested in her and her personal story, not because they thought she wasn't a true Dutch citizen or didn't belong there. For her she said it had to a lot with her growing up and having had some bad experiences with being 'othered' back in Canada and to some degree the US though.



Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: sitnspin on 11 Feb 2019, 08:52
The problem is that is often followed up with questions that dismiss your previous answers.
 Example:
"Where are you from?"
"New York."
"Yea, but where were you born?"
"New York"
"Okay but where are your parents from"

etc etc etc

Can the question be innocent? Yes. But it often belies an unspoken, and often unconscious, assumption that you are not, as Akima has pointed out, a real member of your society. I'm not saying that every white person who asks a POC where they are from is racist, but context is important. How and when the question is asked matters.  And equating the experiences of white folks who get asked that question and the experience of POC who get the same question is naive at best and disingenuous or willfully ignorant at worst.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Thrillho on 11 Feb 2019, 11:20
Okay, I express this as an exasperated human, not a mod.

But you would not believe how easy I found it to treat people with more respect when my response to people with colour or anyone who has a characteristic I do not share was to just listen and enact what they ask.

My experience, as a white, cis, queer male, is not the same as that of people of colour, women, transpeople, non-binary people, and arguably straight men although I moved comfortable in those circles for decades so I definitely got a pretty strong experience of it.

These experiences simply are not comparable, even as a white person in a country where that makes you a minority.

Life got so much easier when I stopped white person responding and just started listening and enacting. It's not like I am saying there is no room for discussion, and I am not singling anyone out.

Nobody is calling anyone a monster, or an asshole, or racist or even 'a racist.' They are telling you their experience, and it also shouldn't be their job to do that anyway, so frankly I am just eternally grateful whenever I get to hear these experiences and thoughts.

This is WAY more strawman than this thread deserves, but I have been thinking about this a lot lately and the more I realise how much my own behaviour can be both charmed and damaging the more I wonder how some minority folk aren't just screaming endlessly into a pillow whenever they have to interact with others.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 11 Feb 2019, 11:49
Tova, thought provoking.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 11 Feb 2019, 16:42
Seriously, mate, how long did you sweat over a notepad to compose that?
No sweat and not long at all.  I'm worthless at constructing rhymes, but alliteration just rolls out of my skull.

I'd enjoy seeing an alliteration competition between you and Akima.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: huttj509 on 11 Feb 2019, 17:09
Also, it’s othering because white Americans don’t ask other white Americans where they are from. It’s a question that implies you aren’t yourself American.

I get asked at least once a week where I am from, and I am as white as can be (have been in the US for >10 yrs now). I have always assumed the question was merely out of interest and been happy to talk about my background. There is still such a thing as genuine interest in people's stories....
To presume the same question to my non-white fellow expats is always coming from a bad place goes a bit far. My gf certainly doesn't presume that (ethnic Thai but in US for >20 years now, also gets asked regularly), should she?   

I don't disagree with the premise that for those with non-white ethnical backgrounds, the reason for being asked "where are you from" may more often be negative (and perhaps sometimes racist, yes), but depending on context/situation the question in fact may often be simply curiosity/interest in your story....
One of my friends (who is, like @Akima, ethnic Han, grew up in Canada and the USA) has been living in the Netherlands for a couple of years now.
For her, she took issue with the question where she is from the first year or so after moving to the Netherlands, for similar reasons as many have pointed out above. For her, it took about a year before she realized that the vast majority of people asking where simply doing so because they were interested in her and her personal story, not because they thought she wasn't a true Dutch citizen or didn't belong there. For her she said it had to a lot with her growing up and having had some bad experiences with being 'othered' back in Canada and to some degree the US though.

I have never been asked that question unless I first indicate that I'm "not from here."  Such as mentioning having moved to my current state in the US ~9 years ago, or missing mountains, or when visiting a friend at a large gathering with people from hours around.  Or back at college, where people were from across the country.

Now, I'm generally 'not from here.'  I'm not living near the state I grew up in, I was not born in the state I grew up in, I have no family living in either the state I grew up in, or the one I was born in.  My father was not born in this country, my grandfather wasn't born in this country, nor were my great-grandparents.

But I blend into the crowd, and don't have a notably distinct accent for where I live.  So nobody asks me where I'm from unless I've indicated the answer's not local.

The 3 examples you mention are people who *are* from elsewhere.  This context can put a very different light on things from someone who is local, but gets treated as if they're not.  A friend of mine has dealt with "where are you from" many times, and her answer is, completely honestly, "Texas."  "No, I mean where are you *from*."  Her daughter needs to go more generations back.  Where's she from?  Midwest.  Where are her parents from?  Midwest and Texas.  No, like, where's her *family from*...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Torlek on 11 Feb 2019, 18:58
Okay, I express this as an exasperated human, not a mod.

But you would not believe how easy I found it to treat people with more respect when my response to people with colour or anyone who has a characteristic I do not share was to just listen and enact what they ask.

My experience, as a white, cis, queer male, is not the same as that of people of colour, women, transpeople, non-binary people, and arguably straight men although I moved comfortable in those circles for decades so I definitely got a pretty strong experience of it.

These experiences simply are not comparable, even as a white person in a country where that makes you a minority.

Life got so much easier when I stopped white person responding and just started listening and enacting. It's not like I am saying there is no room for discussion, and I am not singling anyone out.

Nobody is calling anyone a monster, or an asshole, or racist or even 'a racist.' They are telling you their experience, and it also shouldn't be their job to do that anyway, so frankly I am just eternally grateful whenever I get to hear these experiences and thoughts.

This is WAY more strawman than this thread deserves, but I have been thinking about this a lot lately and the more I realise how much my own behaviour can be both charmed and damaging the more I wonder how some minority folk aren't just screaming endlessly into a pillow whenever they have to interact with others.

Exactly this. If a person from a traditionally oppressed group tells you something is offensive and you're from one or more of the groups that traditionally oppress them, SHUT UP AND LISTEN. Your opinions don't matter unless they're asked for.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Theta9 on 13 Feb 2019, 07:31
... I never could figure out a narrative purpose for Hannelore mangling Tilly's name, unless it was to show us how much Hannelore resented her as a symbol of Beatrice's meddling in her life.
You misinterpret. Hannelore was calling Tilly "Taffy" because that's the name she heard from her mother, and she simply didn't hear the multiple corrections. When she finally did, she was properly contrite about it.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
Post by: Tova on 13 Feb 2019, 17:18
Of course, Jeph's narrative purpose for Hannelore getting Tilly's name wrong is unknowable, but I feel motivated enough to take a proper look at this narrative arc and see what meaning we can wrestle from it. Just bear in mind that this is my personal reading only, and can't claim it to be universal.

Let's go.

Number 3607: A Noble Steed (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3607)

'Ah, yes. Taffy, or something like that?'
''Thank you, mother," you'll say. "You're always correct, ..."


There's nothing like the image of animal abuse (robo or otherwise) to quickly set up the villain of the piece. But this is also a thematic setup. Beatrice is disregarding the agency of the horse, subjugating it to her will. Maybe she'd even argue that this is best for the horse. It's easy to see an analogy between this and the way she is treating Hannelore. So this sets up the basic conflict of the arc.

Number 3609: Unstoppable (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3609)

'You are exactly the kind of person my mother would hire.'

Tilly is exhibiting the same trait here - Beatrice's behaviour has rubbed off on them. So now we can see the basic conflict play out between the two of them.

Number 3610: Use Case (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3610)

'I just don't think there's anything for you to do, Taffy.

Hannelore gets Tilly's name wrong for the first time. Remember Beatrice's claim that she is "always correct?" In spite of Hannelore's fury at her mother, she is, on some level, still accepting what Beatrice is saying. This will become clearer later, but this is the first hint that both Hannelore and Tilly are being fundamentally misled by Beatrice. Yet, the conflict will need to play out between them before the root cause (Beatrice's disregard for others) can be properly addressed.

Number 3612: Daily Abultions (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3612)

'Oh, I'm going to enjoy working for you, ma'am!'

The first hint of the potential for them to become fast friends if they can resolve this conflict.

Number 3614: Dogs ARE Good (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3614)

'How long have you been working for my mother?'

And the first hint of Hannelore's realisation that Tilly's behaviours have been strongly influenced by Beatrice.

Number 3617: Laying Down The Law (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3617)

'Isn't that pretty messed up, though? To disregard someone else's agency like that?'

Hannelore finally addresses head on the central conflict between her and Tilly (and with Beatrice, by extension), and in doing so, breaks the spell Beatrice has over Tilly.

Number 3624: She Really Blue It (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3624)

Hannelore realises that she was essentially guilty of the same thing - hurting someone after being misled by Beatrice.

Number 3635: The Other Shoe Drops (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3635)

'We're going to see my mother tomorrow.'

Title just about says it all. Hannelore realises the truth about her mother.

Number 3638: Just So We're Clear (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3638)

'I thought you were being your usual out-of-touch self ... But this wasn't about helping me at all.

Climax of the story. Speaks for itself.

Number 3640: It Will Come Out In The Wash (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3640)

(very meta title)

'I'm sorry, Tilly. My mother used us both.'

Apotheosis. What has come out in the wash? Hannelore and Tilly are now fast friends after realising that Tilly's behaviour and Hannelore's misnaming of Tilly had the same root cause: Beatrice. That's not to absolve either of blame for what they did, but to recognise that what they have in common is far stronger than their past differences.



To cut a long story short (too late): Hannelore's misnaming of Tilly feeds into the story of how both of them were misled into thinking that Beatrice was looking out for them. It gave Hannelore empathy with Tilly's plight, as Hannelore had hurt Tilly after accepting something said by Beatrice, just as Tilly had done. It also revealed a quite positive aspect of Tilly's personality - they were quite patient in a situation where many others would have been aggrieved.

Hannelore's realisation of Tilly's real name is also kind of a trigger for her realisation that Tilly is, in spite of their mistake, a good person, and that Beatrice is the one who truly deserves her wrath. You could even see it as a metaphor for Hannelore's inability to see the real Tilly - she was looking at her mother.

I think that's the most effort I've ever put into analysing a QC arc, but I think it was one of the more interesting ones.

I do hope that forumites who have never forgiven Tilly's initial behaviour can finally come around to reevaluating them, just as Hannelore has managed to do.