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Comic Discussion => QUESTIONABLE CONTENT => Topic started by: jwhouk on 05 Jan 2020, 08:30

Title: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: jwhouk on 05 Jan 2020, 08:30
New week, new thread. No poll, coz I'm lost for one.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Gyrre on 05 Jan 2020, 15:40
Pretty much why I hadn't started a new thread yet.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: shanejayell on 05 Jan 2020, 18:16
I have free will. Dunno about you....  :-D
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 05 Jan 2020, 23:10
When you think about it 'running into someone at random and becoming friends' is pretty much SOP for the main Questionable Content cast. It's just that it more typically happens to Marten. I suppose that the time had to come eventually for Dora and Tai to take up some of the slack! :lol:

So, what does everyone else think that Millifeuille's long-term role will be? If she works in technology development in the 'this is crazy, let's try it' end of things, then she may be a groundside associate of Dr John's. In which case, she may end up running into Hannelore on occasion. More importantly, she may end up as the face of the chassis company should one of the AIs end up with something both experimental and temperamental in their peripherals!

FWIW, though, I'd like for her to be a post-grad research assistant at Smif and, by one of those curious coincidences, knows Claire moderately well.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Tova on 06 Jan 2020, 02:22
I, too, want the ability to teleport any guest of my home instantly to the front door at a time of my choosing.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: andrybak on 06 Jan 2020, 04:05
Yeah, they spent zero time getting up from that sofa.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Meander on 06 Jan 2020, 04:33
How did I not previously notice that Millifeuille was so tall? Are Dora and Tai tiny, or was it just in comparison to Bubbles?
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 06 Jan 2020, 04:40
If you look at Milli's second appearance (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=4087) (Arrival at Union Robotics), yes, she is very tall. She's tall enough for Bubbles not to be over a head taller than her.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Wingy on 06 Jan 2020, 05:37
I have free will. Dunno about you....  :-D
I grok.  Thou art God.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 06 Jan 2020, 08:27
I have free will. Dunno about you....  :-D

I have free will, because I'd have to pay to get rid of the adz.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 06 Jan 2020, 09:19

I don't have free will..

...(married).

 :lol:
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Gyrre on 06 Jan 2020, 10:15
I, too, want the ability to teleport any guest of my home instantly to the front door at a time of my choosing.
One of the distinctions between comics, animation, and irl; panel jumps.

Here's hoping Thai's college friends aren't flakes.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Theta9 on 06 Jan 2020, 11:22
We have to believe in our free will. We have no choice in the matter.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 06 Jan 2020, 15:30
hampshire.png? Are we talking about the state? County? Pigs? Sheep?
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: cesium133 on 06 Jan 2020, 16:57
hampshire.png? Are we talking about the state? County? Pigs? Sheep?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampshire_College

Either that, or Jeph got drunk a surprising number of times in Romney, West Virginia...
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: shanejayell on 06 Jan 2020, 19:12
Roko in a suit. Yowza!  :-D
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 06 Jan 2020, 19:17
Once again Beeps snatches defeat from the jaws of victory!
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: St.Clair on 06 Jan 2020, 21:41
Melancholy, yeah, that's me.
I would also accept "depressed" and "easily sad".
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: cybersmurf on 06 Jan 2020, 23:21
Beeps giving up too easily averaged with Roko's... almost overzealous drive probably makes two average individuals...
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 06 Jan 2020, 23:25
I'd hate to work in that office! So many beautiful women to distract me and remind me that I'm really not good at... well, just about any aspect of face-to-face social interactions!

Beeps giving up too easily averaged with Roko's... almost overzealous drive probably makes two average individuals...

I don't think that she's 'giving up'. She's just afraid of failure and that fear is driving her to not even try in the first place.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Dngrsone on 07 Jan 2020, 01:41
Panel 3 is really good.  Roko cleans up well.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: hedgie on 07 Jan 2020, 02:59
I don't think that she's 'giving up'. She's just afraid of failure and that fear is driving her to not even try in the first place.

Aah, the siren call of my people.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: NemesisDancer on 07 Jan 2020, 03:31
I've noticed that Beepatrice (who looks up to Roko, and has previously dressed like her for confidence) has started parting her hair to the side like Roko. Cute bit of detail ^_^
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Dngrsone on 07 Jan 2020, 04:18
At least she's stopped dressing like Roko...
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 07 Jan 2020, 06:32
I like seeing these two side by side. It's a pleasing contrast.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: SeaWoodStage on 07 Jan 2020, 12:50
I've never liked Roko much, although I try to, and now I remember why. She always approaches things from such a combative angle, and I don't think she's great at separating her own issues from the problems of those she's supposed to be representing. Initially it was understandable, but she seems more focussed, still, on her own anger than on how she could best help her fellow AI.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Theta9 on 07 Jan 2020, 15:00
I've never liked Roko much, although I try to, and now I remember why. She always approaches things from such a combative angle....
Well, she DID used to be a police officer yanno.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: shanejayell on 07 Jan 2020, 18:37
New strip.

Well THAT went well.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: pendrake on 07 Jan 2020, 18:40
For comic #4173... (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=4173)

1. Ah yes...  The crushing and uncaring Bureaucracy...  One of the things I do NOT miss about being a Social Worker.  :(

2. Jeph even got the act of cleaning glasses down correctly.  Whenever someone does that to you, it is a 90% telltale sign that person has already divested himself ("mentally checked out") from the subject/topic.

3. When I catch MYSELF doing it, I make a specific point to tell the person I am conversing/dealing with that I am cleaning my glasses because my glasses actually do need to be cleaned, and that I am still giving my attention to them.

(Unless, of course, I actually AM trying to show that I have divested myself from their subject/topic...  :-X )

4. Hopefully Roko still did do deeper research into the Bureaucrat's Social Media Presence despite Beepatrice's words (4119 (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=4119)-4121).  Roko is definitely going to need it.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: zisraelsen on 07 Jan 2020, 18:42
Oh, he's one of THOSE guys.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: PeterO on 07 Jan 2020, 18:43
I think Roko came in ready to be courteous, and work with the system, despite her ex-cop instincts. Now, in the face of hostility masquerading as bureaucratic disinterest, her old instincts look about to emerge. Especially in the last frame.

I am reminded of this quote - "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet."
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: pendrake on 07 Jan 2020, 18:53
I am reminded of this quote - "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet."

That was from U.S. Marine General James Mattis (if you did not know). :)
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: brasca on 07 Jan 2020, 19:16
We meet again Mr. Pate. 

Roko and I imagine most of the people on this message board are not going to be happy about this, but I do appreciate the exposition.  If the vast majority of AIs are stuck in stationary equipment and don't require a mobile chassis it would be a waste of resources procuring something that will just gather dust. 
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: shanejayell on 07 Jan 2020, 19:20
I am reminded of this quote - "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet."

That was from U.S. Marine General James Mattis (if you did not know). :)

And the Sniper. ;)
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Red_Scare on 07 Jan 2020, 19:50
I am reminded of this quote - "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet."

That was from U.S. Marine General James Mattis (if you did not know). :)

And the Sniper. ;)

Snipin's a good job, mate.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: shanejayell on 07 Jan 2020, 20:12
One wonders if 'Civil Rights' apply to robots and they could make a case that being in a junker body violates May's rights...
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Torlek on 07 Jan 2020, 20:40
May's right to what?
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Matoyak on 07 Jan 2020, 20:47
One wonders if 'Civil Rights' apply to robots and they could make a case that being in a junker body violates May's rights...
I would personally hazard a guess that if there are any laws that'd fit here, they might be closer to something akin to the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) and the ADA Amendments Act (ADAAA). I could see another amendment to the 1990 act being passed around certain AI body stuff.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Gyrre on 07 Jan 2020, 21:04
Oh, he's one of THOSE guys.
I believe the term is "total dickcheese".

EDIT: typo fix
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Penquin47 on 07 Jan 2020, 22:34
Dude has an eminently punchable face.  I do not like him.  I am not advocating for punching, but if Roko did, I could easily understand why.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: St.Clair on 07 Jan 2020, 23:11
"I had hoped to be able to make my client's case to a person, but it seems I'm only speaking to a non-sentient component."
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 07 Jan 2020, 23:18
The horrible part of it is that Mr Bureaucrat is actually 100% factually correct about the situation. What is annoying is that he clearly has no emotional investment and doesn't really care (indeed probably has been training himself not to care for a while). May has no personal existence to him beyond a line in a spreadsheet somewhere and he sees no point wasting his time challenging a policy and official attitude  that won't change simply because the situation doesn't matter to him.

I think it's the aggressive nature of disinterest that really burns. Yes, yes, ex-inmate #25646 has a hard time. Well, that's a shame; why are you telling me this as if it will change anything?

The really important outcome of this meeting is the second bubble in panel 3; that's the lever that Roko was looking for. The admission that the Department of Correction's inadequate body budget means that they are knowingly sourcing junkers. "We know that we are risking these ex-prisoners' health but we don't have the money to do anything else." When the lawsuit over that admission gets to court, this guy would have long since have lost his job for dropping the Department in an embarrassing and expensive situation. It probably won't even get to court; they'll find the money to get May a new body in exchange for the withdrawal of the suit and May's signature on an NDA.

"I had hoped to be able to make my client's case to a person, but it seems I'm only speaking to a non-sentient component."

I've worked in the public sector bureaucracy. Trust me, you are not encouraged to be anything else.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: pendrake on 07 Jan 2020, 23:54
@BenRG...

Exactly, Jeph did an excellent job showing this disinterest in every panel of this comic (4173 (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=4173))...
 - panel 1: "I don't 'make' time.  I have a schedule." = He clocks in physically, but he has already clocked out mentally.
 - panel 2: "It's not necessary for me to read that." = He does not even bother to look, because Roko's case is already pre-closed for him.  And if he is made to take Roko's file-folder, it will wind up getting 'processed' into the 'Circular Filing Cabinet'{If you do not know what that is, then you clearly have not dealt with enough Bureaucracy...}

(click to show/hide)

 - panel 3: "...the body assignment department is not responsible..." = Not my problem/responsibility.  Therefore, not my job/task to do anything about it.  The System Works. :meh:
 - panel 4: the Bureaucrat's half-lidded eyes = Because [reason], [technicality], [red tape], [Do I want Subway or McDonald's for lunch?], [droning on], [Oh are you still here...?]

 - panel 5: the Bureaucrat's cleaning his glasses = See my own initial Comment above on what that means when people do that to you.  :x
 - panel 6: "...I'm not sure what you hoped to accomplish by coming here today." = I could be tending to something more important than you.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: oddtail on 08 Jan 2020, 01:21
The horrible part of it is that Mr Bureaucrat is actually 100% factually correct about the situation.
Quote
I think it's the aggressive nature of disinterest that really burns.

I think these two statements summarise the nature of the problem best.

Yes, everything he says is true. Including his implied inability to do anything of substance. But there's a huge difference between "look, we have no budget for this. I really don't think we can do anything here. Let's look at what you have and figure out where any wriggle room in the system is" and "there's no budget for this. Ipso facto, you're wasting your time and mine".

Dude's JOB is to work within the system. Not hold it up as an all-purpose shield from having anything accomplished.

Or to quote Big Lebowski: he's not wrong; he's just an asshole.

EDIT: I don't even know what made me think of it, because the situation is nothing alike beyond a surface level "short on resources" similarity, but I'm reminded of a (probably false, but it makes for a good story) situation that allegedly occurred during Nazi occupation of Poland.

An officer of the Polish Resistance contacted his superiors to get the squad's allotment of personal arms (seeing as it's pretty difficult to conduct war without firearms). His fairly large squad got assigned, I think, five rifles and one handgun. Which is a ridiculous number, but on the other hand - what can you do when the resistance in the region physically didn't have any more guns, right?

The officer's response was to jokingly say: "we'll make do, but maybe you have some bows and arrows we could use at least?".

Point is, I'm not saying the bureaucrat in QC is not in a no-win situation. What I *am* saying is maybe he should be trying to figure out where to get some bows and arrows. And it doesn't even seem to occur to him.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Stoutfellow on 08 Jan 2020, 02:03
Another emotional factor for Roko: "When I realized that my job wasn't actually doing anyone any good, I quit and took up another line of work. You?"
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Cornelius on 08 Jan 2020, 02:34
Point is, I'm not saying the bureaucrat in QC is not in a no-win situation. What I *am* saying is maybe he should be trying to figure out where to get some bows and arrows. And it doesn't even seem to occur to him.

Or it might be that she's already got the bows and arrows.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Dngrsone on 08 Jan 2020, 04:22
So... his department rarely assigns bodies.  Given that, his budget is so low that he can afford only the cheapest of bodies.

Why is this actually a freaking department, then?
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Annemoon on 08 Jan 2020, 04:36
Wouldn't thought to say this, but I can't wait for Roko to go full ballistics on this guy...
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Wingy on 08 Jan 2020, 04:39
Probably to keep EQ=0 (or totally uninterested in the job, whichever he is) people employed.  I'm sure May could handle this job more effectively (and might even be able to cadge some needed parts on the sly).

There's just so many ways this could go, up to and including Roko coming completely unglued in this guy's face and shocking him out of his stupor (which probably won't go well for May or Roko).
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Cornelius on 08 Jan 2020, 05:02
Or it might be, like some other underfunded and understaffed departments, that this is just one more responsibility on top of whatever his actual job is supposed to be.

Speaking from several part-time departments, myself...
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 08 Jan 2020, 05:05
I'm guessing that what follows is this:
Total in-universe elapsed time from beginning to end will be 1-5 years.  :-(
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 08 Jan 2020, 05:19
Okay, here's the thing and I might get lynched for this, but he's right.

Most AI requiring a chassis are either going to have one purchased for them by a human (Companion AI) or through their employer (Jeremy). Other AI are not embodied because their work doesn't require it.

May was an AI working in accounting, she didn't need a body. The fact that she was arrested and ended up in robot jail is irrelevant. She got issued a crappy body the same way that long time prisoners get issued with a cheap suit when they get released. Like he said, that department has an incredibly small budget and they can't afford to give AI showroom quality chassis. I mean, the deluxe chassis Momo was looking at cost $30,000. That's as much as a new car. Of course they can't afford to give everyone a brand new chassis. He even admits they're forced to buy lemons, May's chassis is proof of that.

May may need a new chassis but she doesn't need one. That's a major difference between the two.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: rtmq0227 on 08 Jan 2020, 05:49
My theory is there's potential here for a discrimination allegory here.  The "Cheap Suit" comparison is apt, but insensitive.  In practice, the two aren't comparable (you can't cheaply acquire a new AI frame the way you can cheaply acquire at least casual clothing), but bureaucracies are happiest when everybody has exactly the same needs; if someone in charge is of the opinion that a chassis is equivalent (functionally or symbolically) to a new suit, then they may consider the cost of a proper chassis similar to buying an Armani suit for an ex-con.

What will likely come up is how easy it is for non-embodied AI to move about (my guess is that those who don't return to a body typically have a sponsor or host lined up who will facilitate this, which makes May's situation like having no one to pick her up from jail) and the potential fix may be to take a medical angle.  I can't help but feel like this is a set-up for a discussion on "should prisoners be allowed to transition gender while in custody, and does the state have to pay for the medical costs while they are in custody?
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: rtmq0227 on 08 Jan 2020, 06:53
All of that said, my first reaction to this was "Listen here, you little shit..."
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Y on 08 Jan 2020, 09:13
Maybe it has been said before, but if there was the choice between having a shoddy human sized chassis which is identifiable or a decent pintsize, first momo, toaster chassis,... but she doesn't really identify with it, which would be better?
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Dngrsone on 08 Jan 2020, 09:46
Maybe it has been said before, but if there was the choice between having a shoddy human sized chassis which is identifiable or a decent pintsize, first momo, toaster chassis,... but she doesn't really identify with it, which would be better?

She wouldn't be caught dead in an anime style chassis like Momo's first body, and she's said that she'd be okay with her current body, if it had a larger chest ("If I can't have a bomb rack I should have a bomb rack, know what I'm sayin'?").
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: David F on 08 Jan 2020, 10:22
Another possible outcome (assuming Roko doesn't take the bad cop route here, or after she's tried that and failed) is to see if Union Robotics can stretch whatever budget there is a little further...
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 08 Jan 2020, 10:31
May's right to what?

Right to make a living. Her body is an impediment to supporting herself.

If I were a civil rights lawyer in the QC world, I'd argue that it's an 8th Amendment violation under the deliberate indifference standard to issue someone still under correctional control a defective body. I might even appeal to emotion by asking the jury how they'd feel if their arm fell off because of deliberate neglect.

There must be low-spec refurbished bodies out there which fit into a tight budget but that would meet minimal standards of decency.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Cornelius on 08 Jan 2020, 11:05
That would raise some other, more serious issues, though.  If I remember correctly, she's not allowed to rent out processor time, and is basically limited to the kind of menial jobs she has now. Presumably, that limitation has some relationship to what she was convicted for. Quaere: what happens with non-embodied AI in the same case?
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Thrudd on 08 Jan 2020, 11:41
I am reminded of this quote - "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet."

That was from U.S. Marine General James Mattis (if you did not know). :)

You can accomplish much with a kind words and a smile but you can accomplish more with a smile, kind words and a hammer - Annon
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 08 Jan 2020, 13:16
He is well organized! His limited time is a resource that is allocated for maximum effectiveness!
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: zioninavision on 08 Jan 2020, 17:29
I have been puzzling in a good way over this situation since reading this morning; now i am realizing, there is definitely a potential outcome that might be in the next or Friday's strip that could be most wonderful!! It would not be unprecedented plotwise! 
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: DaiJB on 08 Jan 2020, 19:08
Dude has an eminently punchable face.  I do not like him.  I am not advocating for punching, but if Roko did, I could easily understand why.

And so, some time later, we find Roko in Robot prison, being visited by May, with her "plan" for getting Roko out of there...    :wink:
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: pendrake on 08 Jan 2020, 20:14
For comic #4174... (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=4174)

1. And the Bureaucracy-wearing-human-skin continues.  Have to give it to Jeph in continuing to accurately depicting it per panel...
 - panel 2 ~ knuckles on chin = I'm bored of you, why are you still here?
 - panel 3 ~ rolling one's eyes = Your subject, if not your very presence, is an annoyance.
 - panel 4 ~ "Have a nice day, Ms. Basilisk." = Translation: "You, my social inferior, are dismissed."

2. As I have previously posted, I do NOT miss having to deal with The Bureaucracy in the Public / Governmental Sector.  (Not that Private Sector Bureaucracy is really any better either, unfortunately.)

3. Besides the obvious 'Spiteful Resolve' that Roko now has, I would be very surprised if Roko actually receives guidance in how to better navigate The Bureaucracy from either Beepatrice &/or Nelson (the smaller Anthro PC at the 'Robo'-Social Services office).
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: St.Clair on 08 Jan 2020, 20:18
Getting a very strong Star Trek (2009) Quinto-Spock "Live long and prosper" vibe off that last panel.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: shanejayell on 08 Jan 2020, 20:31
I'm wondering if Roko DOES see the budget folks, and finds out that Spookybot's money has hit the system, and they're literally confounded on what to DO with it....
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Gyrre on 08 Jan 2020, 21:01
Point is, I'm not saying the bureaucrat in QC is not in a no-win situation. What I *am* saying is maybe he should be trying to figure out where to get some bows and arrows. And it doesn't even seem to occur to him.

Or it might be that she's already got the bows and arrows.
In todaycs strip (4174) he metaphorically put a loaded crossbow in her hands and metaphorically pointed it right at his own head.

So... his department rarely assigns bodies.  Given that, his budget is so low that he can afford only the cheapest of bodies.

Why is this actually a freaking department, then?
Barest minimal effort so some career politician(s) can claim they addressed some public concern and keep getting re-elected.

If that's the case, I hope Roko calls them out for it publicly.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 08 Jan 2020, 22:28
I am not betting against Roko here.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: andrybak on 08 Jan 2020, 23:08
I just realized, that out of four platonic companion robots (three others being Pintsize, Winslow, and Momo) — May is probably the only one without an AI companionship contract.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 08 Jan 2020, 23:18
Yeah, like I said yesterday, there's no point talking with someone who isn't mentally or emotionally present. The level of contempt the bureaucrat has for Roko is so clear from the fact that he started reading something that didn't look even slightly like a work-related document. So, yeah, he not only wasn't listening, he wasn't even interested.

One obvious question is: Why did he even agree to a meeting? When Roko thinks about this, she'll realise that his position probably isn't all that strong the minute she starts looking at the department's legal and statutory duty of care. It's just that there is no way to make them acknowledge that without a civil rights lawsuit coming their way and when they can't intimidate her to back down.

It's sort of a shame that the biggest barrier to having good public services is the people who are actually in charge of running said public services.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: awkwardness on 08 Jan 2020, 23:40
They pissed off the wrong person.

She's a former cop, who knows how to investigate and find what she needs to prove something. These asshats are so sure of themselves that they do the least amount possible and are done with it while neglecting their jobs. She's likely to not only find the money for better bodies, she's likely to cause someone to end up getting exposed for manipulating the system and neglecting their jobs...

But hey- what do I know. It's not like I've been before state police officers who know the system inside and out better than the people manipulating it to do the least for the most...
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Mordhaus on 09 Jan 2020, 00:00
The problem is that he doesn't realize the connections Roko has. He is literally blowing off someone who is friends with something (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3412) who could destroy his life, the life of his family, his friends, and even their families as an example.

I'm just surprised that Roko hasn't involved them prior to this point, although I assume she wanted to try the normal channels first.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: pendrake on 09 Jan 2020, 00:07
1. @BenRG...
One obvious question is: Why did he even agree to a meeting?

[Bureaucrat Guy]: I didn't "make" time.  I have a schedule.  It tells me when I have time available. That's what it's for.

Roko (probably) made her appointment through other channels/people, and she got Bureaucrat Guy as a result.  He (likely) had no choice in the matter of having the meeting, which in-turn probably contributed to his utter disdain for the matter and dismissing Roko as quickly & efficiently as he could.

2. On a separate but parallel track... Another hindering factor to May's case is that, from my understanding of the QC-verse, is that humanoid chassis are generally considered LUXURY items, in addition to being prohibitively expensive.  The exceptions being those whose chassis are specifcally required for work/purpose; otherwise Anthro PCs technically do not "need" a physical body for their digital intelligences.  So that would also reinforce why the Correctional System is even less inclined to provide for released convicts like May.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Drunken Old Man on 09 Jan 2020, 00:37
The problem is that he doesn't realize the connections Roko has. He is literally blowing off someone who is friends with something (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3412) who could destroy his life, the life of his family, his friends, and even their families as an example.

I'm just surprised that Roko hasn't involved them prior to this point, although I assume she wanted to try the normal channels first.

Siccing Spooky on someone who is just doing his job (badly, perhaps, but still doing it) is absolutely loathsome.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Potato Farmer on 09 Jan 2020, 01:16
Quote
Ms. Basilisk, I have nothing particular against you or your client, but...
What a delightful way of sounding like a halfway reasonable person when what you're actually saying is 'I treat everyone with disdain'.

The guy might be right that he doesn't have the power to help but it's clear that even if he did he wouldn't bother unless he wasn't given much of a choice.

I hope Roko finds a more successful approach but it's probably better to just leave this guy alone. As a rule I don't believe people should be rewarded for poor behaviour (and this guy sounds like being left alone is exactly what he wants) but it doesn't seem like forcing him to take his job more seriously is going to be beneficial for anyone.

EDIT: Also Roko has made it clear that she doesn't want to rely on Yay Newfriend to solve everything. She wants to believe that with effort and will the average person can get results even if it doesn't have to be easy. Which is an admirable mindset although a pragmatist would argue that once it becomes apparent that the game is either broken or rigged you don't have to play by the rules any more.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 09 Jan 2020, 02:19
I'm wondering if Roko DOES see the budget folks, and finds out that Spookybot's money has hit the system, and they're literally confounded on what to DO with it....

THIS ^^^^^  right here...
What exactly was the point of Spookybot's untold wealth being sent into the ether - if NOT to go to places like this?

As regards the 'person' Roko#s speaking to, the next words out of her mouth should have been "And now I'd like to talk to your immediate superior..."

IS what the guy is saying correct?
Maybe - but does he physically handle the budget? From what we have heard, no.
He is trotting out his standard lines. "Things are crap. There's nothing we can do about it."
Except, he isn't the person who makes those decisions.
And, as shanejayell rightly said above, (and with a bit of supposition) what DOES he know about the budget?

This person is the Front Line face of the department, and he is being (to put it very mildly), dismissive and flat out rude.
In a public sector job (which this seems to be) that is easily grounds for corrective action. (Maybe not sacking, unless he has previous.)

Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Dngrsone on 09 Jan 2020, 02:45
Roko is pissed.  Her expression in the last panel (4174) says to me, "game on."
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Asami on 09 Jan 2020, 04:21
May's right to what?

Right to make a living. Her body is an impediment to supporting herself.

If I were a civil rights lawyer in the QC world, I'd argue that it's an 8th Amendment violation under the deliberate indifference standard to issue someone still under correctional control a defective body. I might even appeal to emotion by asking the jury how they'd feel if their arm fell off because of deliberate neglect.

There must be low-spec refurbished bodies out there which fit into a tight budget but that would meet minimal standards of decency.

I had to register to poke in on this. This is absolutely where I think this is going. AnthroPCs aren't required to have humanoid chassis, but to me it seems like with the fact they're sentients and the like, there should be at the very least a minimum expectation. May is considered "enough of a person" to be imprisoned, given a parole officer, and all that jazz-- therefore, there is some onus on the state to prove that May, a humanoid that has been considered enough of a person to be convicted and parolled, does not require a new body to function as a member of society.

There is now a litany of documented evidence that the body given to her by the state is subpar and forms a burden on her. Her debt to society has been paid-- they're actively inhibiting her at this point which is a big no-no. This is also why I think that banning AI from renting out processor time (which is the literal equivalent of banning a human from ever working 90% of available jobs probably) is probably an unconstitutional punishment that the Supreme Court hasn't waded into yet. But they're gonna have to eventually....

This is the sort of thing that starts a civil rights movement, TBH.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Wingy on 09 Jan 2020, 04:48
Roko is pissed.  Her expression in the last panel (4174) says to me, "game on."
That, or she's thought of another angle at which to start prying.  Either way, I expect his seat is about to get hotter than he'd like.

Especially when he's opened up his crossword book in her presence...
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Dngrsone on 09 Jan 2020, 04:58
So, in effect, May is required to have a physical body as a term of her parole because she is not allowed direct access to a network due to the nature of her crime(s).

Giving her a substandard body, therefore, is equivalent to setting a man adrift in the ocean with a boat containing neither oars nor fishing gear.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 09 Jan 2020, 05:16
To me, the galling thing isn't the minimum-spec body. That's typical government welfare procurement in action. What makes me angry is the the Department of Correction knowingly sourcing a barely-adequate chassis and then refusing to assist in maintaining it in any way. That's basically morally similar to deliberately infecting someone with a disease and then saying that it isn't your problem to provide treatment. It's this that will be the damning aspect of any lawsuit on the matter.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 09 Jan 2020, 05:27
Hence my comparison to a suit given to a long term prisoner when they are released.

In the mind of the Department of Corrections bureaucrat, its not their fault that the suit is falling apart, its the convict's for wearing it to meetings, interviews and other mandatory release conditions. Likewise, its not their fault that May's chassis is failing apart; its May's for constantly using it for work and trying to integrate back into society.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: St.Clair on 09 Jan 2020, 05:50
There is a minimum regulatory requirement, set by some other agency or legislature; they have met that minimum requirement; job done.
Any further action, or consideration of action, is not their responsibility.
(Isn't bureaucracy grand?)
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: St.Clair on 09 Jan 2020, 05:57
Hence my comparison to a suit given to a long term prisoner when they are released.

In the mind of the Department of Corrections bureaucrat, its not their fault that the suit is falling apart, its the convict's for wearing it to meetings, interviews and other mandatory release conditions. Likewise, its not their fault that May's chassis is failing apart; its May's for constantly using it for work and trying to integrate back into society.

Nah, see my above post.  Assigning blame would require caring about anything but following the (minimum) rules, which the department (or its representative) clearly does not.
People of this sort and level maintain that their sole duty is to implement policy set by others; that is their focus and their shield.
"Fault" only enters the picture as a question of liability ... which I suspect it soon might.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Torlek on 09 Jan 2020, 07:59
So, in effect, May is required to have a physical body as a term of her parole because she is not allowed direct access to a network due to the nature of her crime(s).

So after rooting through the archives for an hour, I wasn't able to find a direct reference to this restriction but I do half remember it being mentioned. It's entirely possible I was looking in the wrong years (coincidentally, the SS MartenClaire has been happily sailing for over 5 years now, where does the time go?). Does anybody know where such a restriction is explicitly mentioned?
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Dngrsone on 09 Jan 2020, 09:08
So, in effect, May is required to have a physical body as a term of her parole because she is not allowed direct access to a network due to the nature of her crime(s).

So after rooting through the archives for an hour, I wasn't able to find a direct reference to this restriction but I do half remember it being mentioned. It's entirely possible I was looking in the wrong years (coincidentally, the SS MartenClaire has been happily sailing for over 5 years now, where does the time go?). Does anybody know where such a restriction is explicitly mentioned?

It is not. I extrapolated this from the facts that she was imprisoned for digital theft (funds for buying an aircraft) and prohibition from selling clock cycles.  I could be entirely wrong, but the theory fits the circumstances.  We have not seen anything saying whether or not she has a direct connection to the internet, but on the one hand, she can DM Momo, and on the other we have seen her using Dale's laptop to watch scat porn.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Cornelius on 09 Jan 2020, 09:20
People of this sort and level maintain that their sole duty is to implement policy set by others; that is their focus and their shield.

I know it's not the popular thing to do, but I do find I have some issues with this kind of statement.

I may have mentioned before, that I find that people in public services usually enter for one of the following reasons: either they're there for the benefits, or for some (perceived sense of) power, or because they want to make a difference.
Over time, it's hard to know which you are dealing with, especially in understaffed and underfunded departments. That's because the people who care either leave, or burn themselves out, trying to do their job as best they can, despite the people or structures who are above them.
Sometimes, this kind of indifference only comes about by having tried too often, to no avail, by the utter helplessness they find themselves in, to actually help the person across the desk, who, by now, disappointed, sad, and/or angry, is blaming them personally for not having tried enough.

Granted, that doesn't mean this person is one of those. His puzzle book does count against him. Or perhaps he's too far gone.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Stoutfellow on 09 Jan 2020, 10:12
As far as I and the magnifier can tell, the book is "100 Easy Crossword Puzzles".

Evidently he doesn't like challenges.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Wingy on 09 Jan 2020, 10:44
You know, video is just a string of 1's and 0's anymore.  I wonder if AIs can record what they see and play it back for others to view somehow?  A meeting with his supervisor and a view of the crossword puzzles out at the end certainly wouldn't help his employment status any...
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: geminigrey on 09 Jan 2020, 12:27
Amused that after reading this long, it took this story and reaction to make me register to post.

I realize I'm probably more moderate/conservative in my beliefs that the majority of readers, but I found myself siding with the official here.   There literally is no reason that an AI 'needs' a body, and I don't see any reason why May would need a physical form in order to earn money (other than that's how Jeph chooses to build the narrative, and hey, it's his story), so I don't see any obligation that the government would have to provide her with one at all.     That they do, and it's a substandard piece of crap, is like complaining if somebody gave you food when you don't have any, but it's something you don't like to eat.   

As for his attitude, sure it's cold and unfeeling, but then again, he's undoubtedly approached daily by people thinking they're the exception to the rule.   May has (more than) what she needs to survive and build up her lot in life.   Being mad at this dude for not helping her out is weird considering the number of other people she knows that have funds/ability to provide her with with better and nobody is upset with them for not doing it.  I mean, I may be wrong, but isn't Winston's old body sitting around unused?

Life's hard and there's no such thing as a free lunch.   Or to paraphrase another bumper sticker, Saying 'I Exist' to the Universe doesn't obligate the universe in any way.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: sitnspin on 09 Jan 2020, 12:47
No, it would be like someone giving you food that literally makes you ill.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 09 Jan 2020, 12:57
I realize I'm probably more moderate/conservative in my beliefs that the majority of readers, but I found myself siding with the official here.   There literally is no reason that an AI 'needs' a body, and I don't see any reason why May would need a physical form in order to earn money (other than that's how Jeph chooses to build the narrative, and hey, it's his story), so I don't see any obligation that the government would have to provide her with one at all.     That they do, and it's a substandard piece of crap, is like complaining if somebody gave you food when you don't have any, but it's something you don't like to eat.   

Except that the nature of May's crime means that she cannot work in a disembodied manner, she isn't allowed to network to any financial or commercial systems. Its like when a medical professional commits a crime and after completing their sentence, they can't work in the medical profession.

So in May's case, she isn't allowed to network anymore which pretty much cuts her from an entire plane of existence. And to meet the terms of her parole, May needs to work, even if its in a crappy convenience mart. May needs a chassis to meet the terms of her parole.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: rtmq0227 on 09 Jan 2020, 13:18
Amused that after reading this long, it took this story and reaction to make me register to post.

I realize I'm probably more moderate/conservative in my beliefs that the majority of readers, but I found myself siding with the official here.   There literally is no reason that an AI 'needs' a body, and I don't see any reason why May would need a physical form in order to earn money (other than that's how Jeph chooses to build the narrative, and hey, it's his story), so I don't see any obligation that the government would have to provide her with one at all.     That they do, and it's a substandard piece of crap, is like complaining if somebody gave you food when you don't have any, but it's something you don't like to eat.   

As for his attitude, sure it's cold and unfeeling, but then again, he's undoubtedly approached daily by people thinking they're the exception to the rule.   May has (more than) what she needs to survive and build up her lot in life.   Being mad at this dude for not helping her out is weird considering the number of other people she knows that have funds/ability to provide her with with better and nobody is upset with them for not doing it.  I mean, I may be wrong, but isn't Winston's old body sitting around unused?

Life's hard and there's no such thing as a free lunch.   Or to paraphrase another bumper sticker, Saying 'I Exist' to the Universe doesn't obligate the universe in any way.

Personally, I find the notion of "the universe doesn't care about you so why should I be obligated to?" childish and simply a method of excusing selfishness, but there's some other elements at play in this story, and it's a real (if flawed) philosophy at work in many bureaucracies, so I'm not surprised to see it here.

The key here is what a body really means to an AI.  Is it like a car?  We have lemon laws that would easily cover things like this.  Is it like a fancy suit?  Then clearly there should be less expensive options available than busted/failing chassis.  If there are enough AI that need bodies after getting out of jail that the amount of money available requires they be given complete junkers, then clearly that number is not based on actual need, but perhaps bias somewhere else.  Is it a manifestation of their identity, similar to our own?  Then we get into things like medical care and elective procedures.  Clearly, there are psychological ramifications to intentionally housing an already at-risk person in a failing body (at the very least, depression).  All of these angles indicate that something else beyond "we just can't afford it so there's nothing we can do" and "the universe just isn't fair" at play here.

Something to consider, unless Marten is secretly loaded (which we know he really isn't), he was able to afford a decent chassis for Pintsize without breaking the bank.  Compare that to the costs of minor repairs to May's chassis.  If this is really just a matter of money, why don't they have several of the classic mini-me chassis in stock as a cheap option?  Heck, even those used have to be cheaper than May's would have been.  Knowing what I know about how bureaucracy works, it's most likely someone found a loophole where they could acquire the off-warranty cast-off chassis like a totaled car for next to nothing from a scrapper, give the appearance of purchasing a reasonably affordable used chassis, and pocketing the difference (or using it elsewhere in the budget on something else they wanted).

I'm a sucker for a Checkov's Gun moment, and we've seen Roko research how robot jail sources bodies for ex-cons, being told that the money is the issue, and being told to waste the financial deparment's time instead.  Given that Roko is an ex-cop, I wouldn't be surprised if she sniffs out some white-collar crime here.  Plus Beeps suggesting Roko suppress her cop instincts, it would be fitting for those instincts to turn out to be right.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Cornelius on 09 Jan 2020, 13:28
I realize I'm probably more moderate/conservative in my beliefs that the majority of readers, but I found myself siding with the official here.   There literally is no reason that an AI 'needs' a body, and I don't see any reason why May would need a physical form in order to earn money (other than that's how Jeph chooses to build the narrative, and hey, it's his story), so I don't see any obligation that the government would have to provide her with one at all.     That they do, and it's a substandard piece of crap, is like complaining if somebody gave you food when you don't have any, but it's something you don't like to eat.   

Except that the nature of May's crime means that she cannot work in a disembodied manner, she isn't allowed to network to any financial or commercial systems. Its like when a medical professional commits a crime and after completing their sentence, they can't work in the medical profession.

So in May's case, she isn't allowed to network anymore which pretty much cuts her from an entire plane of existence. And to meet the terms of her parole, May needs to work, even if its in a crappy convenience mart. May needs a chassis to meet the terms of her parole.

On the other hand, there is nothing requiring to give her humanoid body. An assembly arm still can work, without interfacing to financial or commercial systems.

Quote from: 4137, panel 3
A disembodied AI requesting a body is an uncommon occurrence, ...

This does seem to suggest that she specifically requested it - possibly with her experience as a disembodied AI, and robot jail making her wish for more mobility. And considering she wanted to be a fighter jet, I think that is very likely how things went down. There's also the fact that she can't, exactly, connect to financial or commercial systems, which means she can't go back in the system where she came from.

Then again, where does that leave us with the position that AI are inherently owners of the hardware they run on?

I will admit, though, that what disembodied AI can do, in parole is not exactly clearly addressed. Either all AI, with the same type of crime, have the same limitations, and it is not a rare occurrence, or there must be some other way in which they can earn their keep. Or it is a very rare occurrence, which suggests that either AI are more law-abiding, or cover their tracks more efficiently - or that there is a very small population of AI - which doesn't seem to correspond exactly to what we see in the comic.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Drunken Old Man on 09 Jan 2020, 14:39
No, it would be like someone giving you food that literally makes you ill.

Illness is preferable to starvation.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Tova on 09 Jan 2020, 14:51
There's something that confuses me.

If a disembodied AI requesting a body is a rare occurrence, then I would have thought that a commensurately small budget allotment would nonetheless have been sufficient to obtain for that very small number of AIs a fully functioning chassis? If it isn't, then that doesn't sound commensurate to me. What am I missing?
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: brasca on 09 Jan 2020, 16:01
The problem is that he doesn't realize the connections Roko has. He is literally blowing off someone who is friends with something (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3412) who could destroy his life, the life of his family, his friends, and even their families as an example.

I'm just surprised that Roko hasn't involved them prior to this point, although I assume she wanted to try the normal channels first.

Siccing Spooky on someone who is just doing his job (badly, perhaps, but still doing it) is absolutely loathsome.

And lazy.  My biggest problem with Spookybot and for that matter Hannelore is they have the potential to be deus ex machinas when there’s a problem beyond the other characters’ abilities to fix.  An easy fix for the sake of a happy ending doesn’t happen all that often in real life.  Even though this is a webcomic I prefer it follow certain storytelling rules.

And while the bureaucrat could’ve been nicer it’s possible he’s heard it all before and has to be cold and indifferent just to get through the day.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Quantum Glass on 09 Jan 2020, 17:39
I'm not really comfortable with the idea of "having a body is a luxury, not a right." Granted, for at least most AI there are plenty of job opportunities and chances to interact with other people online. (I'm not sure what jobs or communities May is limited to, legally speaking. Hmm, did Holo-May ever discuss her career prospects?).

Even if you compare it to changing cars, Roko suffered from disassociation when she lost her body. It may just be a platform for interacting with the material world, but psychologically and kinesthetically she considers herself anthropomorphic, not a silicon box piloting a mini Gundam. It's a necessary tool for both her mental health and her ability to interact with the outside world on a level familiar to most humans. May may not have any particular attachment to her body on account of all the flaws, but she sounds the same.

To put it another way: If humans were capable of plugging in to the net and hanging out with AI, and there was a paraplegic woman who used that to find a job to pay her bills, and it was entirely within modern medicine and the government's means to give her the ability to move and walk (with basically no additional physical therapy required, even), would she be entitled to that? Does it make a difference if she's an ex-convict or not?

What if they helped her get some bargain bin medical deal that let her walk again, but it came with all sorts of errors and flaws and mistakes, such that it impeded her quality of life and was a not insignificant financial burden? Such that she could go back to lying in a bed, plugging in to Wikipedia, and never moving again if she were fine with that? Should she be grateful for the opportunity to move at all?

I don't know. I get that medical rights are sort of a touchy subject right now in America.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 09 Jan 2020, 18:01
Yet, a chassis is a luxury item. Most AI don't need a chassis to do their jobs, the ones who do are in a very small minority from what we've seen. A chassis is going to be an expensive item to buy because it is an expensive item to create. Even if the materials aren't that expensive, you're still looking at design, labour, transport costs. A deluxe chassis might cost $30,000 and maybe have $2000 worth of material in it.

Chassis are luxury items, if they weren't they'd be ubiquitous and every AI would be walking around in one. The same way that yes, everyone would like a car but you still need to pay several thousand for a partway decent one.

May's chassis is still a luxury item, even if it is a lemon. Lemons are cheap, ridiculously so. Like barely a couple of hundred dollars. Think about how miserly that department's budget must be where they consider a $300 chassis is too much for them to replace.

Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Stoutfellow on 09 Jan 2020, 18:36
Comic's up.

I guess Roko didn't read the entire user's manual...
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: rtmq0227 on 09 Jan 2020, 18:43
Comic's up.

I guess Roko didn't read the entire user's manual...

And now it's time to play Roko's favorite game: Sudden calming reason or DISSOCIATIVE  EPISODE!!!

Seriously, nothing reminds you your body is not your own like it overriding your desires to preserve itself.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Shjade on 09 Jan 2020, 18:46
Judging by the visual distortion, I'm betting dissociative episode.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: rtmq0227 on 09 Jan 2020, 18:47
Of course, you would have thought this pop-up would have occurred during her self-destructive face-washing episode.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: brasca on 09 Jan 2020, 19:14
Of course, you would have thought this pop-up would have occurred during her self-destructive face-washing episode.

Perhaps that wasn't destructive enough to trigger this defense mechanism.  Punching a wall is different and while this does not help her dissociative disorder it's really for the best.  Bubbles can punch a wall without any problems, but this would require a trip to Union Robotics. 
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 09 Jan 2020, 19:26
Well that's actually scary....
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Tova on 09 Jan 2020, 19:42
That is some pretty impressive spyware tech.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Tyr on 09 Jan 2020, 19:56
I was all ready to be "Y'see that? That's growth!" to Roko stopping herself.

But it wasn't Roko.

This REALLY isn't her body. If it was, she'd be able to destroy it as she sees fit.



That goddamned smiley at the end... Ugh...
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: shanejayell on 09 Jan 2020, 20:02
Yikes.

I'm GUESSING it's either a recent add-on, or it can be hacked. Or you'd never have Robot Fight Club like we had earlier in the series...
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: cesium133 on 09 Jan 2020, 20:05
It’s gotta be a recent addon, otherwise Roko would have had it on her old chassis.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: St.Clair on 09 Jan 2020, 20:07
Comic's up.

I guess Roko didn't read the entire user's manual...

They never do.

Once I got past the "YIKES" with everyone else, I thought:
"Huh.  Reinforced Third Law."
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: ischaemia on 09 Jan 2020, 20:22
I dunno if we have free will, but it's pretty evident Roko doesn't.

Seems nightmarish.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Raptorofwar on 09 Jan 2020, 20:28
Well, the universe is like a game of pool. Your brain is guided by physics, which is guided through outside causes. Sure, there's quantum randomness so the pool table analogy doesn't quite fit, but that can't be called any kind of free will. You can't control the spin of electrons.

Also, this panel seems like it's going to cause body dysphoria for Roko.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Morituri on 09 Jan 2020, 20:34
This seems like the sort of feature that would have to be disabled before the body were ever issued to a serving police officer.  Which Roko was, at the time she got it.

If the police departments don't know about this, then it's going to look really bad when some crucial moment comes and officers are stopped by the fundamental BIOS running on their chassis, not even remotely under their control, from doing something to prevent harm coming to others, or even stopped from defending themselves.

Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: cesium133 on 09 Jan 2020, 20:46
I don’t want to go on an archive binge right now, but I’m pretty sure the Crushbot incident was after she quit from the police department.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Tova on 09 Jan 2020, 20:56
I feel like this plot twist has been introduced purely to give Spookybot something new to do.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Elder Sign on 09 Jan 2020, 20:58
If the police departments don't know about this, then it's going to look really bad when some crucial moment comes and officers are stopped by the fundamental BIOS running on their chassis, not even remotely under their control, from doing something to prevent harm coming to others, or even stopped from defending themselves.

So basically, problems with Three Laws (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Laws_of_Robotics) compliance?

I feel like this plot twist has been introduced purely to give Spookybot something new to do.

Isn't everything?  What's a story arc these days without our friendly neighbourhood robotic gestalt entity with the eminently punchable demeanour?
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Gyrre on 09 Jan 2020, 21:10
Uninstall?
Y/N

Y

...
Are you sure?
Y/N?

Y

...
Are really really sure?
Y/N

Y


Likely ad infinitum or until she gets a prompt informing her that she just voided the warranty by uninstalling that.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Tova on 09 Jan 2020, 21:22
... she gets a prompt informing her that she just voided the warranty by uninstalling that.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is what she discovers in tomorrow's strip upon reading the user manual.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Case on 09 Jan 2020, 21:28
There's something that confuses me.

If a disembodied AI requesting a body is a rare occurrence, then I would have thought that a commensurately small budget allotment would nonetheless have been sufficient to obtain for that very small number of AIs a fully functioning chassis? If it isn't, then that doesn't sound commensurate to me. What am I missing?


I wondered about just that.

Maybe it's the department that is missing something? Part of their budget meant to support AIs on parole, say ...
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Drunken Old Man on 09 Jan 2020, 21:37
Isn't everything?  What's a story arc these days without our friendly neighbourhood robotic gestalt entity with the eminently punchable demeanour?

Preferable?  Welcome?  Refreshing?  I mean, we did have a nice long run without Spooks the last few weeks and I, for one, didn't miss them.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Scarlet Manuka on 09 Jan 2020, 21:37
There's something that confuses me.

If a disembodied AI requesting a body is a rare occurrence, then I would have thought that a commensurately small budget allotment would nonetheless have been sufficient to obtain for that very small number of AIs a fully functioning chassis? If it isn't, then that doesn't sound commensurate to me. What am I missing?

Perhaps most of the AIs who request embodiment are willing to put up -- or at least start out -- with the cheaper miniature models (Pintsize type, original Momo type, spider type, etc.) and May's request for a full scale humanoid chassis has taken a disproportionate amount of the available budget already. There's no way they can possibly afford to get her another (and probably more expensive) one on top.

I can easily imagine there being an upper limit per parolee for the amount the agency is allowed to spend on embodiment, and it probably only just covers the cheapest available humanoid chassis models so they can say they are providing a humanoid option. May's probably used up her allowance already, or near enough.

Edit: I don't think the comparisons to Roko are germane. Roko had her previous body her whole life. May didn't have a body before this so she could not have built up a psychological dependence on a specific kind of body in the same way that Roko had. And it's been mentioned in-comic that Roko's level of integration with her old body was unusually high.

Edit 2: The real question is, when it tells me there were a whole bunch of new posts while I was typing, how did the post I'm replying to (and the one before it) manage to get included in the list?
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: SeattleCrochetWoman on 09 Jan 2020, 21:58
This seems like the sort of feature that would have to be disabled before the body were ever issued to a serving police officer.  Which Roko was, at the time she got it.


I believe she’d already quit the police force when her accident happened.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Tova on 09 Jan 2020, 23:15
Roko had her previous body her whole life.

That's another thing I'm not 100% clear on. How does an AI first come to occupy a chassis? Are they entirely dependant on a companion buying one? If they don't get a companion, do they just go into massive debt?
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 09 Jan 2020, 23:22
This is fascinating in a way and it shows that the engineers who built the Philomena-G were thinking ahead about possible equipment abuse. In it's own way, this isn't that different from the reflex responses that stop us from engaging in destructive actions and make us respond far more quickly than our conscious minds can process data to remove ourselves from a source of harm.

I'm pretty sure that Roko can probably turn off OopsieGuardTM on her settings page by using her admin password (which the hallucination of her body's 'spirit' gave to her).

That said, yeah, she's going to go into a deep dissociative episode here and may even be damaged by it.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 09 Jan 2020, 23:41
I hope Roko finds a more successful approach but it's probably better to just leave this guy alone. As a rule I don't believe people should be rewarded for poor behaviour (and this guy sounds like being left alone is exactly what he wants) but it doesn't seem like forcing him to take his job more seriously is going to be beneficial for anyone.

Welcome, new person!

Agreed, he seems like the type who is best bypassed rather than confronted.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 09 Jan 2020, 23:46
May's right to what?

Right to make a living. Her body is an impediment to supporting herself.

If I were a civil rights lawyer in the QC world, I'd argue that it's an 8th Amendment violation under the deliberate indifference standard to issue someone still under correctional control a defective body. I might even appeal to emotion by asking the jury how they'd feel if their arm fell off because of deliberate neglect.

There must be low-spec refurbished bodies out there which fit into a tight budget but that would meet minimal standards of decency.

I had to register to poke in on this. This is absolutely where I think this is going. AnthroPCs aren't required to have humanoid chassis, but to me it seems like with the fact they're sentients and the like, there should be at the very least a minimum expectation. May is considered "enough of a person" to be imprisoned, given a parole officer, and all that jazz-- therefore, there is some onus on the state to prove that May, a humanoid that has been considered enough of a person to be convicted and parolled, does not require a new body to function as a member of society.

There is now a litany of documented evidence that the body given to her by the state is subpar and forms a burden on her. Her debt to society has been paid-- they're actively inhibiting her at this point which is a big no-no. This is also why I think that banning AI from renting out processor time (which is the literal equivalent of banning a human from ever working 90% of available jobs probably) is probably an unconstitutional punishment that the Supreme Court hasn't waded into yet. But they're gonna have to eventually....

This is the sort of thing that starts a civil rights movement, TBH.

Welcome, new person!

The AI civil rights movement looks like it has more work to do.

Jeph may have based this on research into the correctional system for organic people in our world. Unnecessary obstacles are placed in the path of people trying to go straight after prison.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: TV4Fun on 10 Jan 2020, 01:51
Of course, you would have thought this pop-up would have occurred during her self-destructive face-washing episode.
There might have been a new update released since then.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Dngrsone on 10 Jan 2020, 02:52
The problem is that he doesn't realize the connections Roko has. He is literally blowing off someone who is friends with something (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3412) who could destroy his life, the life of his family, his friends, and even their families as an example.

I'm just surprised that Roko hasn't involved them prior to this point, although I assume she wanted to try the normal channels first.

Siccing Spooky on someone who is just doing his job (badly, perhaps, but still doing it) is absolutely loathsome.

And lazy.  My biggest problem with Spookybot and for that matter Hannelore is they have the potential to be deus ex machinas when there’s a problem beyond the other characters’ abilities to fix.  An easy fix for the sake of a happy ending doesn’t happen all that often in real life.  Even though this is a webcomic I prefer it follow certain storytelling rules.


This has been addressed.  Hanner's tried to punish a restaurant that gave Marten food poisoning by siccing her mother on them, and Marten told her no, that it was an accident and the family shouldn't be made to pay for a random occurrence. 

Spookybot is a chaotic neutral entity at best with really only one hard-fast rule (don't muck around in other people's minds).  That they donated $2m to charitable causes only shows how hard they are trying to be friend-worthy to Roko (I imagine being that powerful makes one seriously lonely).

In a nutshell, Spookybot doesn't care, is not going to care, and frankly shouldn't care.

Also bear in mind that May doesn't want charity.  The only reason she's letting Roko go with this is because she's looking for a little justice: she's paid her dues, is rehabilitated and rehabilitating (thanks in large part to Dale and Momo), but the shackles still applied to her courtesy of the body assignment department of robot jail are keeping her from carrying on with her life.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 10 Jan 2020, 03:31
I'm sorry to bring this back to the dude in the office.

I've read a couple of posts above (below??) takling about how the guy may well have been dismissive, cold etc... but trying to justify that as there IS nothing he can do, and it's his way of coping.

Except...
It's his JOB to deal with 'people' (Meat or AI).
It is NOT his job to be cold, rude, dismissive - it is (perhaps) his job to tell people like Roko that what they are asking for, through no fault of his own, isn't possible. (This all being supposition from what he said to Roko.. whether or not it IS the case is yet to be seen, I think).
And I doubt that the words "must be rude, dismissive and cold to customers" is in his job description.

To attempt to justify his actions because "he's seen it to oftne" or "There actually isn't anything that can be done" negates the impact those things can have on his 'customers'. It's an extreme example, but...

He is the front line dude.
Someone (Lets just say an AI) is at the end of their tether, their legs keep falling off. They can't hold down a job because of this. They have literally nowhere else to turn. They come to see this guy and he acts like the douche he acted like... The AI decides they can't handle it and go scrap themselves.

Extreme, no?

No, not really.
The cold, rude and base uncaring face of bureaucracy has caused suicides, mental anguish and murders IRL.
If this guy is so affected by his job that this is the way he is acting.
He needs to find another job.

(Statement of Interest: I work in a government dept. that has seen exactly that sort of fall-out due to 'colleagues' who are burned out and lost every jot of empathy they ever had. Some people lose faith in the system they work for because they cannot make REAL differences, and that turns to a hardening against the customers because they can't do what the customer wants/needs them to do. Then, sadly, there are just arses who should never have been in the job ion the first place, who don't give a good fuck about the customers as long as they get their wages.

Guys like the one Roko tried to punch a wall about are real... and the impacts of their lack of Empathy can be devastating to "ordinary people".)

Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Zebediah on 10 Jan 2020, 03:58
Regarding OopsieGuard[emoji769]: Many years ago I was at a party and was handed a drink called a “fireball”. As I recall, the active ingredients included tequila, cinnamon schnapps, and Tabasco sauce. In other words, it was one of those drinks deliberately designed to make you ill, just to see if you can take it.

Being young and already somewhat drunk, I decided to give it a try. But as I raised the drink to my mouth, the aroma hit my nostrils and my hand stopped moving. I was willing myself to put the glass to my mouth, but it was like my arm muscles were refusing my instructions. No matter how hard I tried, I literally could not move the glass any closer to my mouth.

Now, I’m not arguing that this was a bad decision. It was absolutely the right call. But it didn’t feel like my decision. Some part of my brain overrode my conscious free will that night. And the fact that I still vividly remember this, more than thirty years later, should give you a clue as to how disturbing that was.

And Roko already has issues with this body not feeling like her own. There’s a total meltdown coming very soon.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: jwhouk on 10 Jan 2020, 04:04
... she gets a prompt informing her that she just voided the warranty by uninstalling that.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is what she discovers in MONDAY'S strip upon reading the user manual.

FTFY. Nice cliffhanger for the weekend, eh?
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Tova on 10 Jan 2020, 04:16
Oh hi, Friday. Didn't notice you standing over there. You move fast these days.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Welu on 10 Jan 2020, 04:43
Oh dear that feels like it would really mess with my Roko's brain.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Cornelius on 10 Jan 2020, 05:30
The cold, rude and base uncaring face of bureaucracy has caused suicides, mental anguish and murders IRL.
If this guy is so affected by his job that this is the way he is acting.
He needs to find another job.

I have no quarrel with the rest of your post,  but to me, it seems that him finding another job is mostly good for him. It doesn't mean that there'll be any improvement for the customer.

Of course, I'm looking at it from my perspective, and situation, where every single time someone left, that did not lead to any improvement. On the contrary, it just meant that the work was just sorted to the next overburdened person, or was simply dropped until such time as there would be someone else. It's been years, now, but that hasn't happened.

What you need is a change higher up, that allows you the means to actually do something useful, rather than just trying to remedy all of the emergences that come to be because you can't.

I'd have left, if it weren't for a change of management, that gives me some hope things might finally change a little.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: cesium133 on 10 Jan 2020, 05:53
I feel like this plot twist has been introduced purely to give Spookybot something new to do.
There's a simpler solution that doesn't require Spookybot: Roko has the means to support a chassis' maintenance, but wants out of her chassis; May can't afford to support her chassis. If they swap, then May gets a chassis that requires a lot less maintenance, and Roko gets a different chassis (not necessarily better for her, but at this point she may be willing to take the chance).
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: JimC on 10 Jan 2020, 06:57
It's his JOB to deal with 'people' (Meat or AI).
Submit we haven't got a clue what his real job is, but bearing in mind he states that assigning chassis to released AIs appears to be a very rare event, and that he appears to be locally based, isn't it a fair assumption that is only at most a tiny part of it?
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 10 Jan 2020, 07:07
It's his JOB to deal with 'people' (Meat or AI).

Submit we haven't got a clue what his real job is, but bearing in mind he states that assigning chassis to released AIs appears to be a very rare event, and that he appears to be locally based, isn't it a fair assumption that is only at most a tiny part of it?

Yeah, he's probably got a broader responsibility in the Department of Corrections. He's probably a mid- to senior-manager in the section that handles provision of benefits and other material support to parolees (assignment to hostels, sourcing rehab providers and the like).
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: MrGone on 10 Jan 2020, 07:09
Maybe that firmware is part of the reason she's having a hard time integrating in the first place. With how integrated she was with the last one, it's possible she did with the new body enough to have some sense that she didn't have 100% control, but couldn't place it exactly.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: mike837go on 10 Jan 2020, 08:20
Re: Oopsie Guard(tm),

As a software engineer (Applications and Data Base), I have to include limits, blockers and supervisor overrides all over the place!

They are required because too many times we don't consider all the possible implications of our actions.

Its nice that the chassis manufacturer included such safeguards. Although a less overwhelming pop-up would have been nice.

A simple [muscle signal blocked] and a message "Self-descructive behavior is not currently authorized. Proceed? Y/N"  would be more than adequate.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 10 Jan 2020, 08:52
It's his JOB to deal with 'people' (Meat or AI).
Submit we haven't got a clue what his real job is, but bearing in mind he states that assigning chassis to released AIs appears to be a very rare event, and that he appears to be locally based, isn't it a fair assumption that is only at most a tiny part of it?

But if he has to do what he did with Roko, then it's his job... maybe not all of it, but still his job.
Either way, he requires at best disciplinary procedures, or least, training to deal with customers on a face to face level.
Isn't too hard to extrapolate that this is what this guy is like anyway - you don't get that sort of attitude from having to tell someone you can't help them only once in a blue moon. How he GOT to that place is irrelevant - the problem with him as an employee is what's happening now.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Dngrsone on 10 Jan 2020, 09:21
Maybe that firmware is part of the reason she's having a hard time integrating in the first place. With how integrated she was with the last one, it's possible she did with the new body enough to have some sense that she didn't have 100% control, but couldn't place it exactly.

Roko needs to root/jailbreak her body.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: hedgie on 10 Jan 2020, 09:34
sudo punch --wall
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 10 Jan 2020, 10:06
Oopsie Guard&tm; sounds like a reasonable substitute for pain. Come to think, I would prefer it.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Case on 10 Jan 2020, 10:29
Oh hi, Friday. Didn't notice you standing over there. You move fast these days.

Somewhere back in the neolithic (~'96) I asked my then 34yo room-mate whether subjective perception of the passage of time (actually, the subjective impression of the rapidity of the passage of time) just continues to accelerate with age, or whether the process plateaus at some point.

Tehe ...
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: notStanley on 10 Jan 2020, 11:39
C L I P P Y ! ! !

some things just refuse to die  : {

Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: pendrake on 10 Jan 2020, 12:32
For comic #4175... (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=4175)

1. [Narrator voice]: May would realize her case was utterly lost when authorities found Roko's abandoned chassis plugged into a dirty internet router in a grimy back-alley.  Scrawled upon the brick walls of the back-alley above her inert form was:

"NOT MY BODY.  IT TOLD ME SO."
"NOT MY BODY.  IT TOLD ME SO."
"NOT MY BODY.  IT TOLD ME SO."

2. But yeah, for Roko, this is +1 step forward (4116 (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=4116)-4117), and now -3 steps back.  :(
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Y on 10 Jan 2020, 14:34
As long this is not the version of the Three Laws as in Robocop.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Cheetaur on 10 Jan 2020, 14:57
"I see you are trying to hurt yourself, would you like help with that?"
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Morituri on 10 Jan 2020, 16:16
Hmmm.  If this sends Roko into a tailspin, there may very well be a liability lawsuit for mental/emotional damage worse than the lawsuit for physical damage Ooopsie-guard was trying to forestall.

Some years ago, I bought a laptop.  I found the damn thing locked.  I had to call the manufacturer and get a password, just so I could access the BIOS to install an operating system!  I have never, and will never, buy another laptop from that manufacturer.

I can't begin to explain the ... at first shock, then disbelief, then sheer rage, this episode caused.  I had bought the damn thing, it was mine, and yet some asshole out there had locked me out of it - before I even GOT IT.  When I got over the disbelief that anybody would do such a thing and not expect to be sued out of existence, I was angry enough to chew bullets and spit nails.

And, in Roko's place, I would be even angrier.  Some asshole out there made that decision for her, without consulting her, constraining her use of hardware that SHE DAMN WELL OWNS.  The next thing to do, if she can hold it together, is to march in there and demand full control of her property, and if they don't want to give it to her she should damn well sue their asses off.   And if she can't hold it together, that makes the lawsuit all that much bigger.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 10 Jan 2020, 16:27
Informed consent is missing. She might well have agreed to that feature if she'd been given a chance (though something tells me she's the type to turn it down). Instead it was sprung on her without notice.

I can't help reflecting, though, that I've got the same kind of override installed on my own biological hardware without my permission. It's less polite, too. Pain reflexes are powerful things.

Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Y on 10 Jan 2020, 18:02
Some years ago, I bought a laptop.  I found the damn thing locked.  I had to call the manufacturer and get a password, just so I could access the BIOS to install an operating system!

I would likely just short the little battery so it resets.

It's less polite, too. Pain reflexes are powerful things.
It looked like she's missing out on the whole dimension of pain receptors. The feature would be better if it simulated the pain it would bring. As otherwise you have that feeling of never having to feel responsible for your actions, also imagine Pintsize unable to do 'pap pap pap...'
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: DaiJB on 10 Jan 2020, 19:29
Huh.
Weird how the randomly-chosen poll fits in neatly with the subsequent events...

Apparently, Jeph's answer is: "No"
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: brasca on 10 Jan 2020, 20:02
I feel like this plot twist has been introduced purely to give Spookybot something new to do.
There's a simpler solution that doesn't require Spookybot: Roko has the means to support a chassis' maintenance, but wants out of her chassis; May can't afford to support her chassis. If they swap, then May gets a chassis that requires a lot less maintenance, and Roko gets a different chassis (not necessarily better for her, but at this point she may be willing to take the chance).

I think the situation would be worse.  May’s low grade chassis is likely less sensitive and thus Roko would feel constantly numb.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Tova on 10 Jan 2020, 20:16
I have been mentally constructing scenarios where Roko gets a different chassis that she feels comfortable with and May gets Roko’s current one. Not sure how that works though.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: cesium133 on 10 Jan 2020, 20:22
I feel like this plot twist has been introduced purely to give Spookybot something new to do.
There's a simpler solution that doesn't require Spookybot: Roko has the means to support a chassis' maintenance, but wants out of her chassis; May can't afford to support her chassis. If they swap, then May gets a chassis that requires a lot less maintenance, and Roko gets a different chassis (not necessarily better for her, but at this point she may be willing to take the chance).

I think the situation would be worse.  May’s low grade chassis is likely less sensitive and thus Roko would feel constantly numb.
I do seem to recall Roko complaining that the sensors in her current chassis being too sensitive. May’s chassis would probably be too far in the opposite direction, but Roko may be willing to take that chance just to get out of her current situation.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 10 Jan 2020, 20:54
Yeah but the problem is that May's chassis is failing apart. Even the mechanic who took a look at it said she would be better off scrapping it rather than throwing good money after bad.

If anything, a chassis swap would likely exacerbate Roko's problems. Imagine being in a body that is literally falling apart and imagine the horror combined with Roko's trauma.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 10 Jan 2020, 22:54
Some years ago, I bought a laptop.  I found the damn thing locked.  I had to call the manufacturer and get a password, just so I could access the BIOS to install an operating system!

I would likely just short the little battery so it resets.

It's less polite, too. Pain reflexes are powerful things.
It looked like she's missing out on the whole dimension of pain receptors. The feature would be better if it simulated the pain it would bring. As otherwise you have that feeling of never having to feel responsible for your actions, also imagine Pintsize unable to do 'pap pap pap...'

I asked Jeph once in a Q&A years ago whether QC synthetics perceived damage as pain, and he said something close to "No. They're computers."

That may be their largest difference from us on a day to day basis.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: cybersmurf on 11 Jan 2020, 03:23
Maybe that firmware is part of the reason she's having a hard time integrating in the first place. With how integrated she was with the last one, it's possible she did with the new body enough to have some sense that she didn't have 100% control, but couldn't place it exactly.

Yes. The added/enabled abstraction layer, making it feel remote controlled, like almost unperceivable input lag. "drive by wire" instead of direct control. Whether the OopsieGuard was disabled for the Police package, or may just be a newer addition, or maybe just the fancier models, we can't say. But I can really understand what made Roko feel being misplaced in a foreign chassis.


Of course, you would have thought this pop-up would have occurred during her self-destructive face-washing episode.
There might have been a new update released since then.

Personally, I think the OopsieGuard would only sprung into action right before she would have cut into her dermal covering. Nothing before that would've left (lasting) damage.



This seems like the sort of feature that would have to be disabled before the body were ever issued to a serving police officer.  Which Roko was, at the time she got it.
I believe she’d already quit the police force when her accident happened.

Didn't the Crushbot incident happen right after she went to Union Robotics and told them she was no longer police?
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 11 Jan 2020, 09:34
Just so (https://questionablecontent.fandom.com/wiki/Roko_Basilisk#Body_crushing_incident)

EDIT:

The display did close by urging her to consult her user manual. Maybe it says something helpful like "hold down the shift key to override". If there's no override, then false alarms are crippling.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: traroth on 12 Jan 2020, 06:41
Let's be optimistic, here. Maybe it's precisely that firmware that made her feel so foreign to her new body, and removing it will improve things?
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: TheEvilDog on 12 Jan 2020, 08:16
Or it was installed after one of her traumatic episodes by someone thinking they were helping Roko.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 12 Jan 2020, 08:36
It has an entry in the user manual. That doesn't mean it's standard issue though. Maybe it's an optional feature that the insurance company sprang for.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 12 Jan 2020, 08:43
I'm pretty sure it's standard issue. However, you might be able to control the sensitivity from the options/settings screen. After all, some residents of Philomena-Gs might have a somewhat-hazardous job. The last thing they want is their 'self-preservation instincts' preventing them from doing that job anymore!
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Scarlet Manuka on 12 Jan 2020, 19:14
By contrast, OopsieGuard would be really useful for people like Melon.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Morituri on 12 Jan 2020, 21:27
Okay.  Angry Roko is angry.  That's a huge relief.

The alternative being curled up in a little ball, unable to speak coherently and unresponsive to all attempts to communicate.

Which you know, was also an option.
Title: Re: WCDT 4171-4175 (6 to 10 Jan 2020)
Post by: Tova on 13 Jan 2020, 03:07
pssst this is last week's thread