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Comic Discussion => QUESTIONABLE CONTENT => Topic started by: jwhouk on 12 Jul 2020, 08:59

Title: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: jwhouk on 12 Jul 2020, 08:59
Here you go - with a poll even!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Gyrre on 12 Jul 2020, 09:11
I'm going with her response being a combination of the poll options.
 biting sarcasm, growlix once it sinks in, "You did this for me?!", then 'can I get a cut'.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 12 Jul 2020, 11:20
Basically, May would:
That's how I would like this arc to end, by the way: For May to finally be taught to believe that, her past sins aside, she can be loved.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: hedgie on 12 Jul 2020, 11:32
I had to vote for wings, because, you know, fighter jet.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Mr Intrepid on 12 Jul 2020, 12:05
Once May gets it through alloy head that this isn't about her, but about any AIs who have suffered misfortunes,  she'll be genuinely touched that this might be a a thing because others believe and care for her.  She has that capacjty.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Cornelius on 12 Jul 2020, 12:32
I thought in a previous step, May said she preferred a global solution, rather than just her case being solved, but perhaps I remember incorrectly.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: the silent firefly on 12 Jul 2020, 14:18
a combination of: "yeah, like that is going to happen" and "great, so then i can be stuck with this shitty body forever and wait 6 months at a time for bureaucrats to decide when i can get a ounce of new lubricant"

a comprehensive AI socialized "medicine" system could be a dream come true or a nightmare.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: alc40 on 12 Jul 2020, 15:20
I thought in a previous step, May said she preferred a global solution, rather than just her case being solved, but perhaps I remember incorrectly.
Maybe #4190 (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=4190).  The idea was also discussed in #4200 but not by May.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Mr_Rose on 12 Jul 2020, 17:49
a combination of: "yeah, like that is going to happen" and "great, so then i can be stuck with this shitty body forever and wait 6 months at a time for bureaucrats to decide when i can get a ounce of new lubricant"

a comprehensive AI socialized "medicine" system could be a dream come true or a nightmare.
What social care system anywhere has bureaucrats involved in treatment decisions? Because it sounds a lot like the made up one that was used as a strawman by the naysayers when the affordable care act was being discussed.

Also, I’m not certain “waiting for someone to say I can have something” is actually worse than “never getting anything unless someone gives it to me” – in fact they’re semantically identical; just the implied reason for the third party to fund treatment is different.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Tova on 12 Jul 2020, 17:53
She'll probably be angry that Roko got distracted from helping her by the promise of what she will see as an utterly unattainable goal.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 12 Jul 2020, 18:26
Roko is handling this pretty well. It's good that she keeps May in the loop.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Theta9 on 12 Jul 2020, 18:28
Sven is not a mooch.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Tova on 12 Jul 2020, 18:33
COMIC:-2

Winslow selects option #2
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: N.N. Marf on 12 Jul 2020, 18:46
"wait 6 months at a time for bureaucrats to decide when i can get a ounce of new lubricant"
What social care system anywhere has bureaucrats involved in treatment decisions?
It's probably a system that involves a government and an insurance company. Both types presently are heavily bureaucratic. There's going to be rules that are set by the bureaucrats, and there's probably going to be resident bureaucrats in hospitals who make sure those rules are followed. Most doctors will know most common rules, but there's inevitably going to be a bureaucrat looking over an edge case, scratching his asshead over what to approve. But that's not a personal decision. It's about adhering to the the code (http://www.wastedtalent.ca/comic/live-code). The bureaucracy, made of bureaucrats, decides. Hopefully it's a well functioning bureaucracy.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: shanejayell on 12 Jul 2020, 19:28
Roko pretty much mirrors my reaction. It's a good thing, BUT.... gonna be a bitch to get going, and doesn't help May in the short run.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Mr_Rose on 12 Jul 2020, 19:57
"wait 6 months at a time for bureaucrats to decide when i can get a ounce of new lubricant"
What social care system anywhere has bureaucrats involved in treatment decisions?
It's probably a system that involves a government and an insurance company. Both types presently are heavily bureaucratic. There's going to be rules that are set by the bureaucrats, and there's probably going to be resident bureaucrats in hospitals who make sure those rules are followed. Most doctors will know most common rules, but there's inevitably going to be a bureaucrat looking over an edge case, scratching his asshead over what to approve. But that's not a personal decision. It's about adhering to the the code (http://www.wastedtalent.ca/comic/live-code). The bureaucracy, made of bureaucrats, decides. Hopefully it's a well functioning bureaucracy.
That sounds more like the system the USA has, which was anything but socialised last I checked.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: the silent firefly on 12 Jul 2020, 19:58
What social care system anywhere has bureaucrats involved in treatment decisions? Because it sounds a lot like the made up one that was used as a strawman by the naysayers when the affordable care act was being discussed.

i have no idea. the implication is not that it's a necessary feature of the system, merely that we're talking about the US and therefore a bloated bureaucracy is pretty much a given.


Quote
Also, I’m not certain “waiting for someone to say I can have something” is actually worse than “never getting anything unless someone gives it to me” – in fact they’re semantically identical; just the implied reason for the third party to fund treatment is different.

they are not the same at all when, in the former case, your tax dollars are going to a service which you may or may not ever actually receive. i would describe that as self-evidently much worse.



on-topic, i can't wait to hear May's obscenity-laced tirade. i think she will enjoy having an audience too.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Tova on 12 Jul 2020, 20:11
they are not the same at all when, in the former case, your tax dollars are going to a service which you may or may not ever actually receive. i would describe that as self-evidently much worse.

Your tax dollars are going to a service which you may or may not (directly) receive either way.

The implication of socialised anything is that it society as a whole is better off, meaning that you benefit from the thing tax dollars paid for whether or not you are a direct recipient of the service.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: hedgie on 12 Jul 2020, 21:18
Not to mention, that we all have to pay for things that we don't need/agree on.  My entire working life, I've been paying for a bloated military budget and wars of aggression.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 12 Jul 2020, 23:18
Beeps... I appreciate your curiosity but I strongly suspect that May's contribution to your lexicon will be a long string of censored inputs!

What social care system anywhere has bureaucrats involved in treatment decisions?

None of them but, nonetheless, they still have a strong influence on whether a treatment is available and who gets it on a reasonable time-scale. Remember: socialised healthcare systems are funded by public money. Public money means government control of the funding, including ensuring funding is used cost-effectively and that means that the civil service will be involved in assessing what treatments are going to be available and the amount of money allocated to providing that treatment every financial period.

Whilst they won't be saying "You get it but you don't" to individuals, because that is solely the medical authorities' responsibility, they will be saying: "You will only get enough money perform a certain number of these procedures per year which means those at the back of the queue will have to wait a long time."
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Cornelius on 12 Jul 2020, 23:46
Or, as we have here, some times, treatment XYZ for condition ABC, that affects only one in ten million, is unproven, and so you'll need to pay it entirely by yourself, if you decide to go where they offer it. (Spoiler: more often than not, these campaigns, that do get the funding together, follow up some months later, to say that treatment was not, after all, effective, and in some cases, did more harm than good.)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: jwhouk on 13 Jul 2020, 05:03
Sven is not a mooch.

I knew I forgot something.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Zebediah on 13 Jul 2020, 05:27
Let me tell you a little bit about bureaucrats in the US health care system.

The morning of my son’s heart surgery, while he was being prepped for surgery, we got a call from our insurance company stating that they would not be paying for it, despite having previously approved it. Their stated reasons were that 1. this didn’t require inpatient surgery, but could be handled by an outpatient facility, and 2. my son was too old to be treated at the children’s hospital anyway.

He was 3, and was getting heart surgery, which requires a minimum of 24 hours in an ICU and 72 hours observation after surgery. Insurance wanted it done in an outpatient facility for adults with no post-op hospitalization.

One profanity-laced phone call from the surgeon to the insurance company cleared it up, but he had to take a break from preparing for the surgery to deal with it. He told us afterwards that insurance companies tried to pull this shit all the time, just to see if they could get away with it.

And this is why I want for-profit insurance companies out of the decision-making loop.

(My son is fine now, by the way. Surgery was 100% successful and he has very few restrictions on physical activity. Basically he’s not allowed to play football, which he doesn’t want to do anyway.)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Gyrre on 13 Jul 2020, 05:56
a combination of: "yeah, like that is going to happen" and "great, so then i can be stuck with this shitty body forever and wait 6 months at a time for bureaucrats to decide when i can get a ounce of new lubricant"

a comprehensive AI socialized "medicine" system could be a dream come true or a nightmare.
What social care system anywhere has bureaucrats involved in treatment decisions? Because it sounds a lot like the made up one that was used as a strawman by the naysayers when the affordable care act was being discussed.

Also, I’m not certain “waiting for someone to say I can have something” is actually worse than “never getting anything unless someone gives it to me” – in fact they’re semantically identical; just the implied reason for the third party to fund treatment is different.

Much like education, bureaucrats should be kept far far away from any decision making in how it runs. They should only be allowed to pass the budget. And said budget should be unfettered and free of dogears and riders. [And in my own personal opinion, any politicians attempting to affix such things to said budget bills should automatically lose their seat of office.]
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Tova on 13 Jul 2020, 06:34
Let me tell you a little bit about bureaucrats in the US health care system.

The morning of my son’s heart surgery, while he was being prepped for surgery, we got a call from our insurance company stating that they would not be paying for it, despite having previously approved it. Their stated reasons were that 1. this didn’t require inpatient surgery, but could be handled by an outpatient facility, and 2. my son was too old to be treated at the children’s hospital anyway.

He was 3, and was getting heart surgery, which requires a minimum of 24 hours in an ICU and 72 hours observation after surgery. Insurance wanted it done in an outpatient facility for adults with no post-op hospitalization.

One profanity-laced phone call from the surgeon to the insurance company cleared it up, but he had to take a break from preparing for the surgery to deal with it. He told us afterwards that insurance companies tried to pull this shit all the time, just to see if they could get away with it.

And this is why I want for-profit insurance companies out of the decision-making loop.

(My son is fine now, by the way. Surgery was 100% successful and he has very few restrictions on physical activity. Basically he’s not allowed to play football, which he doesn’t want to do anyway.)

Let me just say that I am very glad that your son is fine. And that my mental reaction to the story leading up to that bit was also quite profanity-laced. There's probably no point in saying any more than that.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Gyrre on 13 Jul 2020, 09:30
But wil May's  profanity take on Sydney Scoville Jr levels of creativity?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Thrudd on 13 Jul 2020, 10:44
Much like education, bureaucrats should be kept far far away from any decision making in how it runs. They should only be allowed to pass the budget. And said budget should be unfettered and free of dogears and riders. [And in my own personal opinion, any politicians attempting to affix such things to said budget bills should automatically lose their seat of office.]
I suggest that they just loose their seat.
It is hard to be a butt when you no longer have one  :roll:
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Baz_Yat on 13 Jul 2020, 10:50
I think first, she's going to swear a lot.
Then she's going to cuss that it's going to take longer.
Then she's going to, in her own obtuse way, say 'thank you for not making me a charity case'
Then she's going to realise she has friends who want to - and can - help her.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: jwhouk on 13 Jul 2020, 18:25
COMIC!

Okay, maybe I already knew what she was going to say. But for it to cause her vocal box to short out?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 13 Jul 2020, 18:39
Oh no! If May can't cuss, then who is she anymore?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 13 Jul 2020, 18:46
It might also get her fired. Not being able to talk properly stops her from interacting with customers (although that might be an improvement, given her potty mouth). Well, off to Union Robotics they go. Hopefully Bubbles can fix May.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Gnabberwocky on 13 Jul 2020, 18:50
...Worrying how accurate pretty much all of those poll options were.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Tyr on 13 Jul 2020, 19:13
It might also get her fired. Not being able to talk properly stops her from interacting with customers (although that might be an improvement, given her potty mouth). Well, off to Union Robotics they go. Hopefully Bubbles can fix May.
Quite a lot of May's issues wouldn't fly if she was an organic. She lost a goddamned arm, and now she's suffering from some unholy combination of tourrettes and selective mutism. I assume her boss isn't so skeevy as to have failed to withhold her taxes, so she should qualify at the very least for some form of temporary disability, and whatever 'living wage' would be paid out for an organic could be applied directly to effecting actual repairs since, psychological blocks and foibles aside, AIs are remarkably easier to heal than organics.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 13 Jul 2020, 19:55
It has also been shown that the system is prejudiced against ex-cons, and I doubt that May would be eligible for any compensation. Heck, if that was the case, then she should be able to get a new body without too much fuss. After all, an upgrade is cheaper in the long run than continuous repairs to keep a crappy chassis going.

Probably her boss gets some sort of compensation for being part of a 'reintegrate ex-con AIs back into society' scheme. So May probably won't get fired, but she might get her pay docked because of her issues.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Tova on 13 Jul 2020, 20:01
So, Murphy's Law would stipulate that the urgency of her chassis situation would escalate at the very moment that they have this conversation.

Maybe this new development will strengthen her case?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: shanejayell on 13 Jul 2020, 20:21
There's also the question if May can afford the voicebox fix.

Hopefully it's minor.

(Does the QC universe have 'go fund me' or similar? Could fundraise for a body fix.)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 13 Jul 2020, 20:32
Fundraising has been suggested before. However, May is dead set against charity.

#MayIsNotAMooch
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Tova on 13 Jul 2020, 20:41
That would also provide ammunition to the official argument that they really have no obligation to do anything.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Gyrre on 13 Jul 2020, 21:35
Oh no! If May can't cuss, then who is she anymore?

I wonder if her new voicebox will come with a Nick Zerhacker/Zodon style profanity filter?


Much like education, bureaucrats should be kept far far away from any decision making in how it runs. They should only be allowed to pass the budget. And said budget should be unfettered and free of dogears and riders. [And in my own personal opinion, any politicians attempting to affix such things to said budget bills should automatically lose their seat of office.]
I suggest that they just loose their seat.
It is hard to be a butt when you no longer have one  :roll:
You know what, let's throw in corruption charges while we're at it.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 13 Jul 2020, 21:52
May would like a profanity filter about as much as Roko liked the Oopsieguard ™
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Gnabberwocky on 13 Jul 2020, 22:37
"I @#$% TRIED TO @#$% SWEAR AND MY @#$% BODY WOULDN'T @#$% LET ME"
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 13 Jul 2020, 23:21
Ouch! There goes her voder! Poor May! I'm wondering if this is the edge of the cliff and the component failure cascade is just going to keep getting faster and worse until it isn't possible to keep her body in a functional condition.

May would like a profanity filter about as much as Roko liked the Oopsieguard ™

Or she gets a replacement that isn't fully compatible with the chassis and she can't alter its settings so that she's stuck on RMLI-Goldie Horn/Miz Mary Sunshine! Having your voice suddenly changed would be pretty disturbing!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: N.N. Marf on 14 Jul 2020, 01:15
Your tax dollars are going to a service which you may or may not (directly) receive either way.
Exactly. It's unfair to put "directly" in parentheses, because someone's going to interpret that as, if it's not a direct benefit, then it's an indirect benefit, which is not true. If I don't get any benefit from participating, don't make me participate. I think hedgie knows what I'm talking about:
My entire working life, I've been paying for a bloated military budget and wars of aggression.
Let me emphasize: if someone gets a benefit from my participating, then they should be ready to compensate me for my participation. If they're destitute, then it's a matter of insurance---I might become destitute someday, so can everyone. One way to resolve problems where "force everyone to participate" is a solution, is draft a pledge of participation effective when enough persons so pledge. Some american anarchists moving to New Hampshire that way. (https://www.fsp.org/common-libertarian-critiques/) When enough persons pledge to participate, each will fulfill his pledge or risk reputation reduction.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Tova on 14 Jul 2020, 01:48
Your tax dollars are going to a service which you may or may not (directly) receive either way.
Exactly. It's unfair to put "directly" in parentheses, because someone's going to interpret that as, if it's not a direct benefit, then it's an indirect benefit, which is not true. If I don't get any benefit from participating, don't make me participate.

You've misunderstood me in two respects.

Firstly, you've completely ignored the "or may not" part of the sentence.

Secondly, I'm not putting it in a way that is subject to interpretation. I'm explicitly stating it. The way you say "someone's going to interpret it" is precisely how I intended my post to be interpreted.

Whether or not any specific spending truly is a societal benefit, on the other hand, is absolutely up for debate. And obviously there is some spending that liberals think society benefits from that conservatives don't. And vice versa.

BUT if you're saying that you only care whether you personally benefit directly, and don't care to participate whether society benefits or not, them I'm afraid we must part ways.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Gyrre on 14 Jul 2020, 04:07
An example of people actually benefitting would the portion of our taxes that go to fund public schools. Even if we don't have kids, we might have a doctor one day  that went to our local schools.

EDIT: avoiding double posting.

"I @#$% TRIED TO @#$% SWEAR AND MY @#$% BODY WOULDN'T @#$% LET ME"
I was thinking more along the lines of; "What the parsnip?!?! Alright, I wanna talk to the  sea-sawwing rabbit-puncher that designed this!!!

[I would have changed the font, but the 'font face' coding doesn't appear to change anything in the preview.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: ihaveavoice on 14 Jul 2020, 04:40
Okay, having your VOICE suddenly give out on you like that and not even allow you to form complete words, just completely out of the blue, is legitimately horrifying to me. Like sci-fi body horror type stuff. Just imagine being slammed out of the blue with a form of aphasia that severe. It's not just like losing your voice. This is fucked. UP. Poor May!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: JimC on 14 Jul 2020, 06:46
Exactly. It's unfair to put "directly" in parentheses, because someone's going to interpret that as, if it's not a direct benefit, then it's an indirect benefit, which is not true. If I don't get any benefit from participating, don't make me participate.
Do you refuse to buy insurance as well? Because universal access medicine paid for out of taxes is working just like insurance.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Theta9 on 14 Jul 2020, 08:13
"...some rich asshole to give me money...."

Paging Sven... Sven Bianchi to the front, please.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: cesium133 on 14 Jul 2020, 09:23
Skrzzt flarzit marm? Cump.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Baz_Yat on 14 Jul 2020, 14:06
Exactly. It's unfair to put "directly" in parentheses, because someone's going to interpret that as, if it's not a direct benefit, then it's an indirect benefit, which is not true. If I don't get any benefit from participating, don't make me participate.
Do you refuse to buy insurance as well? Because universal access medicine paid for out of taxes is working just like insurance.

It's often cheaper than insurance too. Because you're not paying for all the people whose job is to second-guess the doctor, and the doctor doesn't have to pad things out to make sure he's paid properly.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: pwhodges on 14 Jul 2020, 15:04
Do you refuse to buy insurance as well? Because universal access medicine paid for out of taxes is working just like insurance.

Financially, but not organisationally.  You don't have to convince universal access that you deserve standard treatments.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: dreed on 14 Jul 2020, 18:35
Do we know how much a whole body costs?

I thought min 20k for basic model. Based on how much the robo hand cost to repair.

Sven definetely could afford it to pay it full up front but I think may would hate that.

Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: shanejayell on 14 Jul 2020, 18:50
Ouch.

One wonders if putting ex-cons in shitty bodies is also a strategy to keep them from getting ahead? The constant nickle and dime repairs eat away at her savings and functionally make it impossible to improve her life.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 14 Jul 2020, 18:52
Which would encourage May to return to crime, just to get the money to keep her body going.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Gnabberwocky on 14 Jul 2020, 18:54
If it's really going to be a full 20k for a new body, May might actually be better off sticking with her old body (in terms of cost and not counting whatever she earns from the proposed donation drive). Because she's friends with Faye and Bubbles, her repairs are usually under 100 dollars each time, meaning it would take over 200 of those repairs to make the costs equal.

On the other hand, it would be massively inconvenient if your leg fell off every day, so I can see why she'd opt to spring for the more expensive option.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: jwhouk on 14 Jul 2020, 18:56
Do we know how much a whole body costs?

I thought min 20k for basic model. Based on how much the robo hand cost to repair.

Sven definetely could afford it to pay it full up front but I think may would hate that.

Back about 2300 strips or so (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2001), Marigold nearly passed out when she was told the price of Momo's chassis - and it was on the high end of prices.

I believe at the time we posited it was the equivalent of maybe a new car (US$15-19,000), perhaps?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Potato Farmer on 14 Jul 2020, 19:09
Ouch.

One wonders if putting ex-cons in shitty bodies is also a strategy to keep them from getting ahead? The constant nickle and dime repairs eat away at her savings and functionally make it impossible to improve her life.
I believe there was already a comic where Roko addressed that such crappy chassises made a cycle of poverty inevitable and that it was impossible for the people in charge not to be aware of this, which is treated as additional punishment for convicts who have already served their time.

More nefariously I wonder if the people in charge of all this also do this to make it harder for anyone to start trouble. A former convict who's preoccupied with their deteriorating body doesn't have much opportunity to pick a fight with the system.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Tova on 14 Jul 2020, 19:58
If it's really going to be a full 20k for a new body, May might actually be better off sticking with her old body (in terms of cost and not counting whatever she earns from the proposed donation drive). Because she's friends with Faye and Bubbles, her repairs are usually under 100 dollars each time, meaning it would take over 200 of those repairs to make the costs equal.

On the other hand, it would be massively inconvenient if your leg fell off every day, so I can see why she'd opt to spring for the more expensive option.

It's already been stated in today's comic (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=4308) that it's a safety issue, which is a bit more urgent than "massively inconvenient."
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 14 Jul 2020, 20:08
I wonder if there's a market for 2nd hand chassis? From the comics, we know that Pintsize, Momo, and Winslow have gotten new bodies. What happened to their old ones?

(Side note: I'm imagining May in Momo's old chassis. It's both hilarious and frightening).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: ihaveavoice on 14 Jul 2020, 20:15
Again, I say: Poor May.  :cry:
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Gyrre on 14 Jul 2020, 20:48
Exactly. It's unfair to put "directly" in parentheses, because someone's going to interpret that as, if it's not a direct benefit, then it's an indirect benefit, which is not true. If I don't get any benefit from participating, don't make me participate.
Do you refuse to buy insurance as well? Because universal access medicine paid for out of taxes is working just like insurance.

It's often cheaper than insurance too. Because you're not paying for all the people whose job is to second-guess the doctor, and the doctor doesn't have to pad things out to make sure he's paid properly.
Don't forget the people whose sole job is to stall files.
Sounds like we're comparing frogs and newts.

If it's really going to be a full 20k for a new body, May might actually be better off sticking with her old body (in terms of cost and not counting whatever she earns from the proposed donation drive). Because she's friends with Faye and Bubbles, her repairs are usually under 100 dollars each time, meaning it would take over 200 of those repairs to make the costs equal.

On the other hand, it would be massively inconvenient if your leg fell off every day, so I can see why she'd opt to spring for the more expensive option.
Sam Vimes explaining why rich people ultimately spend less on boots than poor people.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Sorflakne on 14 Jul 2020, 21:29
Whatever did happen to Momo's previous chassis?  Couldn't that be a stopgap assuming May's willing to use it and Momo consents to it?

Today's comic...yeah.  Asking for help, even when you legit need it and are justified in asking, is fucking hard.  Swallowing your pride is one thing, but feeling like it makes you look weak or incapable is another, especially if you've never needed assistance or gotten by just fine before.  It's a huge blow to morale and sense of self, it makes you question your competency and self-worth.  I get why May doesn't want help or charity and wants to solve it on her own, because I was in her spot and came right up to the brink of ruin before being able to turn my situation around (without assistance, even when family was offering it).  Thing I learned though, you can't go through something like this alone.  Even if you're not taking direct help, you need a sphere of support, whether it's someone sending you job openings or offering you space to stay or even just being a sounding board so you can vent.

So yeah, asking for help sucks.  But sometimes it's the only option you have to get out of a hole or move forward.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 14 Jul 2020, 21:37
The first chassis Momo wanted was $30K, and we did not get a dollar figure for the one she has now.

The $30K was for a top of the line luxury model. If we equate a $30K body to a $100K luxury car, then the equivalent of a new Honda Civic would be about $6K and we don't know about the secondhand market.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Cornelius on 14 Jul 2020, 23:06
As for safety issue, it seems that her chassis is at a point where anything can fail randomly at any time. Sure, she might want to try and keep up with quick fixes, but just imagine what happens when her leg fails while crossing the street. Somehow, I don't think she has the reinforced core to survive an accident, like Roko did.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Gnabberwocky on 14 Jul 2020, 23:08
If it's really going to be a full 20k for a new body, May might actually be better off sticking with her old body (in terms of cost and not counting whatever she earns from the proposed donation drive). Because she's friends with Faye and Bubbles, her repairs are usually under 100 dollars each time, meaning it would take over 200 of those repairs to make the costs equal.

On the other hand, it would be massively inconvenient if your leg fell off every day, so I can see why she'd opt to spring for the more expensive option.

It's already been stated in today's comic (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=4308) that it's a safety issue, which is a bit more urgent than "massively inconvenient."

To be totally honest, I actually missed that line the first time through. Thanks for pointing it out.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 14 Jul 2020, 23:21
Ouch... May! This is horrible. This has gone beyond the 'wear and tear' and onto the category of 'degenerative illness'. The closest human comparison I can come up with is an aggressive cancer that attacks all the bony structures in the body. Now, bearing this in mind, as someone else has already pointed out, see how this has gone onto 'cruel and unusual punishment'?

Whatever did happen to Momo's previous chassis?

Didn't Momo say that she was going to destroy it to stop Pintsize from getting his end effectors on it?

One wonders if putting ex-cons in shitty bodies is also a strategy to keep them from getting ahead? The constant nickle and dime repairs eat away at her savings and functionally make it impossible to improve her life.

Or, maybe, to guarantee recidivism. If she's back in Robot Jail then the software developers have another AI agent to use to operate the augmented reality virtual PA system that they don't have to give pay and benefits! It makes economic sense and everyone knows that this benefits everyone in the end... except the slaves but no-one (in power) cares about them!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Gyrre on 14 Jul 2020, 23:34
I wonder if there's a market for 2nd hand chassis? From the comics, we know that Pintsize, Momo, and Winslow have gotten new bodies. What happened to their old ones?

(Side note: I'm imagining May in Momo's old chassis. It's both hilarious and frightening).

Depends on the options available and the companies involved. Some may get refurb'd and sold as new, others may have the electronics stripped and everything recycled. Some companies may just salvage the useful stuff and dump the rest.

EDIT: Fixing syntax and completing the thought.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Romanticide on 15 Jul 2020, 00:55
Not a happy fun time for May. It's hard to put yourself in the position of being in dire need of other people helping you.

I have a feeling that it would be a good idea to tell Sven, I honestly believe he considers May a friend and at the very least he could be able to drum some support so they can arrive to the goal faster beside some cash .
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Tyr on 15 Jul 2020, 01:10
I wonder if there's a market for 2nd hand chassis? From the comics, we know that Pintsize, Momo, and Winslow have gotten new bodies. What happened to their old ones?

(Side note: I'm imagining May in Momo's old chassis. It's both hilarious and frightening).

Pintsize's old chassis is likely unusable: He had to be migrated to a new chassis due to physical damage (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=58), and it looks like that upgrade was by unplugging his head and plugging it into the new body (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=60). Winslow's old chassis was supposed to go to charity (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3554). Momo's old chassis might still be around, but Winslow wanted it destroyed so Pintsize would not get his hands on it (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2008).

All three of those chassis would be less than ideal for May's current job, as while she could still operate the register, she would be too small to effectively shoo teenagers and/or would be much easier to kidnap, seeing as it seems she frequently is pulling shifts alone at the convenience store.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 15 Jul 2020, 01:28
All true, but those are just 3 examples that we know of. There are entire stores dedicated to new chassis for AIs, so what happens to the old ones after their owners have gotten an upgrade?

Interesting thought, though: Winslow's old chassis went to charity. Does that mean that there are not-for-profit organisations around that might provide May with a (new for her) body? Even if it was temporary, it could still be a viable short-term solution.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Scarlet Manuka on 15 Jul 2020, 01:50
Remember that it seems to be only relatively recently that human-size bodies have become widespread amongst AIs, so the bodies available secondhand may be almost entirely the older AnthroPC styles - it's possible the market for humanoid chassis is being significantly driven by older AIs upgrading from those.

As Tyr pointed out, May really needs a humanoid chassis to keep her job, although to be fair it's not exactly a job she loves - but we've seen before that she has very limited options there. Losing her job because she's forced to downgrade to a small chassis might be an interesting place to take the plot (or at any rate an extra way to beat us over the head with the idea that May's situation is unfair); I could easily see her having to accept a small chassis until she saves up enough money for a larger one, but then being unable to earn money, and nobody in authority being willing to accept any responsibility for the situation or to do anything about it.

Of course we also know that Jeph doesn't like being really mean to his characters and there are signs that he is looking to take it in a happier direction, so it'll be interesting to see how it all plays out. Personally, after reading today's strip I noticed the donation link as I was heading to the forum, and a part of me wanted to donate money so that May could have a better body. I don't think it quite works like that though :D

-- Edit

Hey, I was just browsing randomly and it turns out the comic has already explored a different solution (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3358)...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: oddtail on 15 Jul 2020, 01:56
Here's some disjointed thoughts that hopefully make sense.

I have a problem with the phrase "acting out of character". It's not that it's not useful - a badly written character can do something that seems stupid within the context of the character's personality. But I think this criticism is used too often - in real life, people don't act the same way, all the time. In stressful or unusual situations, people change their behaviour.

It can be used to great effect in fiction. If someone acts drastically "out of character", it shows they are strongly affected by whatever is happening (this actually has its own page on TV Tropes, which I will not link because I don't want to steal hours off the time of anyone who clicks the link ;) ).

Today's strip does this pretty damn well. Being this helpless and scared and acting like it is not something typical for May. In other circumstances, she's more likely to cover up her fear or uncertainty with more swearing. Which is why it hits harder that she can't or won't in this particular case.

Guess it has to do with the sense of disconnect of not being able to use her normal voice.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Potato Farmer on 15 Jul 2020, 02:18
On the subject of May getting a second-hand chassis from somewhere, I kind of want to give Roko the benefit of the doubt that she didn't overlook that possibility. If there's such a thing as second-hand chasses which are available for convicts it's probably an obscure organization which is hard to find, if it exists at all.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 15 Jul 2020, 02:30
I just need to add at this point that May has never more desperately needed a hug before today. The only other time she's been this vulnerable was when she asked Dale to let her watch the stars with him at the end of her time as his AR virtual assistant.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: the silent firefly on 15 Jul 2020, 02:30
i don't know if i can handle Sad May Face. that last panel is the hardest the comic has ever tugged my heartstrings.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Cornelius on 15 Jul 2020, 06:33
I wonder if there's a market for 2nd hand chassis? From the comics, we know that Pintsize, Momo, and Winslow have gotten new bodies. What happened to their old ones?

(Side note: I'm imagining May in Momo's old chassis. It's both hilarious and frightening).

Pintsize's old chassis is likely unusable: He had to be migrated to a new chassis due to physical damage (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=58), and it looks like that upgrade was by unplugging his head and plugging it into the new body (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=60). Winslow's old chassis was supposed to go to charity (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3554). Momo's old chassis might still be around, but Winslow wanted it destroyed so Pintsize would not get his hands on it (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2008).

All three of those chassis would be less than ideal for May's current job, as while she could still operate the register, she would be too small to effectively shoo teenagers and/or would be much easier to kidnap, seeing as it seems she frequently is pulling shifts alone at the convenience store.

Not to mention the challenge restocking the shelves would be.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: tmv on 15 Jul 2020, 06:43
There could be some kind of 2nd hand chassis market, but non-broken humanoid ones could still be too expensive for May. I would assume her current chassis wasn't new when she got it.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Theta9 on 15 Jul 2020, 08:58
I seem to recall Momo offering May her old chassis, and May's reply was along the lines of OH HELL NO.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Tyr on 15 Jul 2020, 09:18
Yup! I scrubbed through the archives looking for it. The exact conversation (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3170) was:

MOMO
You could borrow my old chassis until-
 
MAY
No offense, but I'd rather wear this bag forever than be a chibi animé toy-robot.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: DaiJB on 15 Jul 2020, 09:22
I was looking at poor May's situation through my rose-coloured glasses just now...  :wink:

What if there is a used AI chassis market, so that a robot with a totally worn-out body (like May) could maybe get a better body without going the expensive route of a brand-new one? That way, May could unbend her pride enough to accept financial help (for instance, from Sven - who could probably be convinced to help, out of gratitude for services rendered - nudge, nudge, wink, wink...), as long as she could pay it back at a reduced rate. And on top of that, she has friends who just happen to run a robot repair facility, who could maybe also be convinced to offer reasonable rates for regular maintenance... (Mind you, I'm still looking through my rose-coloured specs...  :roll:)

I was also imagining Faye, exercising her artistic and metal-working flair by getting into the robot body design field...
Of course, being Faye, the resulting creation would probably resemble either a Transformer or a Gundam  :-D
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Mr_Rose on 15 Jul 2020, 10:19
I recall that at least one model of gundam could also transform into a jet fighter so I reckon May’d be all over that. Even if the missiles were Nerf and the chaingun airsoft.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: JimC on 15 Jul 2020, 10:29
Have you folks thought through the implications of how May comes to have her current chassis?  My impression is that she was not embodied in the job which led to the embezzlement, and certainly not embodied in robot gaol. The current chassis doesn't seem to be rented, it appears to have been a gift from the Dept of corrections. So if they have a requirement to supply a chassis to every ex con who requests one, and (as is I submit canon) a very limited budget, then its almost inevitable that they will supply the ex cons with the cheapest items available on the secondhand market, and May seems to have got a particular lemon.
But again, how do AIs in general get chassis? Bubbles' chassis seems to have been a 'gift'/result of military service,  Roko we don't know. But a new AI comes out of the creche, may want a mobile chassis, may not. How are they paid for? Are there parents who pay as human parents effectivelypay for their offspring's chassis? Is there a kind of bond servitude like McCaffreys "Ship who... series"?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 15 Jul 2020, 10:41
I have no tear ducts and I must cry.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Pilchard123 on 15 Jul 2020, 11:44
Marigold bought Momo's current chassis and gave it to her as a gift, same for Hannelore and Winslow. May talks about buying herself a better chassis, and we know there are shops selling inert chassis that can be easily bought if you have enough money.

My personal theory (though I've given it all of 5 minutes of thought) is that a newly-created AI without a specific task stays in a server rack somewhere, working until it can afford to buy a mobile chassis if it wants one. Maybe there are some that have no desire to be mobile, but they could still buy beefier hardware/better data connections. Special-purpose AIs, like Bubbles, are put straight into their matching chassis.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Mr_Rose on 15 Jul 2020, 13:15
My headcanon for Bubbles still having her military issue chassis is that, for security reasons, she can’t leave and also no other AI can inhabit it, because who wants one of your soldiers to get captured, literally mind wiped, and replaced with an externally identical enemy soldier to be sent back as an infiltrator?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 15 Jul 2020, 14:47
Yup! I scrubbed through the archives looking for it. The exact conversation (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3170) was:

MOMO
You could borrow my old chassis until-
 
MAY
No offense, but I'd rather wear this bag forever than be a chibi animé toy-robot.


Momo isn't completely helpless (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1485), though
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: RevEddie on 15 Jul 2020, 18:08
After years of lurking, I had to sign in for this:

No one here really found it odd that Roko isn't disturbed by the sight of May's open throat?
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Penquin47 on 15 Jul 2020, 18:26
Sure.  It's not *her* throat that's open.

I've known people who are nurses and can deal with just about anything they see in the emergency room... unless something happens to them (or their kid).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Gnabberwocky on 15 Jul 2020, 18:31
Roko's main issue was that she was extremely integrated with her own body. It freaked her out to see her own foot removed because that presumably felt like a violation of her person (robot?).

Also, she's witnessed Faye and Bubbles peeling May's face off before, so I doubt a voice box transfer would faze her too much.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Zebediah on 15 Jul 2020, 18:32
Comic’s up.

Winslow is in big trouble.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Potato Farmer on 15 Jul 2020, 18:38
Huh, maybe that's why her parents got together... her father needed someone to help him stay on track and her mother saw potential in his work.

Not the healthiest of motivations for an actual relationship but it could be the start of something more.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 15 Jul 2020, 18:46
Beatrice steered Hannerdad straight into a marriage...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Torlek on 15 Jul 2020, 18:46
And, in that moment, Winslow knew what it was to see death.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: shanejayell on 15 Jul 2020, 19:00
So there's only a 1/20 chance of this going through. Wheee.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: DaiJB on 15 Jul 2020, 19:03
Ooooh, Winslow poked the bear  :-D
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Gnabberwocky on 15 Jul 2020, 20:57
Do you think Tilly and Station are going to be able to stay on Hannerdad's case long enough to follow through with the legislation, or will it fizzle?

I have the feeling it's going to go quiet for a bit, then pop up again in a few hundred strips with some minor law change. This kind of legislation change doesn't seem like something you get done in one go.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Tova on 15 Jul 2020, 21:08
Yikes!

Okay, that gave me the biggest belly laugh I've had reading QC in some time.

Roko's main issue was that she was extremely integrated with her own body. It freaked her out to see her own foot removed because that presumably felt like a violation of her person (robot?).

Also, she's witnessed Faye and Bubbles peeling May's face off before, so I doubt a voice box transfer would faze her too much.

She was freaked out just by the sight of a dislocated finger (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3897). I'm pretty sure there was another comic where Faye and Bubbles were operating and Roko had her back turned, but I don't have the archive-fu to locate it right now.

I have the feeling it's going to go quiet for a bit, then pop up again in a few hundred strips with some minor law change. This kind of legislation change doesn't seem like something you get done in one go.

Given how long we've been waiting on the story arc of Roko trying to accomplish something arguably much much simpler, I'm not sure Jeph will get done with this storyline in his lifetime. Unless he pulls another Yay ex Machina.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 15 Jul 2020, 21:12
After years of lurking, I had to sign in for this:

No one here really found it odd that Roko isn't disturbed by the sight of May's open throat?


She might've gotten her freak-out out of the way earlier.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 15 Jul 2020, 21:16
Welcome RevEddie!

Do you think Tilly and Station are going to be able to stay on Hannerdad's case long enough to follow through with the legislation, or will it fizzle?

Tilly is persistent to a fault.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Gnabberwocky on 15 Jul 2020, 22:03
Quote
She was freaked out just by the sight of a dislocated finger.

True, although this was before the Crushbot incident (as were all other instances of her being disgusted by robotic body parts, I think). Could her level of squeamishness towards other AIs' bodies have gone down now that she's less integrated with her own?

Edit: grammar
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: St.Clair on 15 Jul 2020, 22:09
run, pink boi.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: hedgie on 15 Jul 2020, 22:23
After years of lurking, I had to sign in for this:

No one here really found it odd that Roko isn't disturbed by the sight of May's open throat?


She might've gotten her freak-out out of the way earlier.

If AIs can have a drunk app, maybe they have an easy Ativan app.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 15 Jul 2020, 23:13
Hannelore ha a point: It's in the nature of a big-picture thinker like Dr John to come up with a way fix a problem in the broadest and most holistic of senses. Whilst his plan would stop this from ever happening again, as Hanners pointed out, this is something that could take years and certainly wouldn't help May now.

I don't think that Winslow could have said something more calculated to distress poor Hannelore than that! However, we've seen before signs that she has a lot of her mother in her personality when she's locked into her more organised and focussed behaviour mode. I also wonder if we're seeing the origins of the John/Beatrice relationship? She was originally the loyal assistant who got him focussed enough to actually get things done, much like Caroline with Cave Johnson in the Portal/Half-Life universe. Somewhere along the line though? All that power got to her.

The lesson for Hannelore is this: There is nothing bad emulating her mother's organisation and problem-solving skills. What she needs to avoid is her ethics-free mindset of personal power and wealth at all costs, no matter who is hurt!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Gyrre on 15 Jul 2020, 23:32
I'm reminded of image of some9ne walking a tightrope over a valley captioned something to the effect of 'trying not to become my parents', with the drop on one side labelled 'becoming just like my dad' and the drop to the otherside being 'becoming just like my mom'.

It's a fine line when you come from a dysfunctional family.
[Speaking from experience.]
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: citizenfive on 15 Jul 2020, 23:40
So there's only a 1/20 chance of this going through. Wheee.

If Dungeons & Dragons has taught me anything, a 1 in 20 chance is still a lot higher than you would think!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: awkwardness on 15 Jul 2020, 23:50
That's a low blow, Winslow...really low blow.

It's true, though- she does channel her mother when she's passionate about things. As much as she hates to admit it, her outbursts and forcibly bottling her emotions is what her mother does a lot.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: cybersmurf on 16 Jul 2020, 00:09
No matter how hard you try, you always pick up things from your parents. One tends to live with them for decades...
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Tova on 16 Jul 2020, 00:52
I have on, I think, two occasions thoughtlessly blurted out something like this to someone, and received a not too dissimilar reaction.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Scarlet Manuka on 16 Jul 2020, 01:09
But again, how do AIs in general get chassis? Bubbles' chassis seems to have been a 'gift'/result of military service,  Roko we don't know. But a new AI comes out of the creche, may want a mobile chassis, may not. How are they paid for? Are there parents who pay as human parents effectivelypay for their offspring's chassis? Is there a kind of bond servitude like McCaffreys "Ship who... series"?
Roko did say she'd had her original chassis "since I was born" (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3574). So having a body straight out of the creche is definitely a possibility.

With humans, of course, the parents are responsible for taking care of the child's needs and providing appropriate clothing, housing, and so on. It seems pretty reasonable to me that whoever commissions an AI mind to be created is also responsible for deciding whether the AI is to be initially embodied or not, and providing a body if so. This would certainly have been the case earlier in the history of AIs when they were still legally property.

I imagine that at first, AIs were commissioned for specific tasks, and provided with bodies as required by the nature of the tasks - the military gave theirs bodies like Bubbles' (or Pintsize's old one), the AnthroPC makers went for "cute and not too expensive", and... well, I don't know what the spiderbots would have been for. Once AI rights became established, the whole situation undoubtedly got murkier - I should think the right to embody, disembody, or change bodies was one of the fundamental parts of that package, as well as more obvious rights like being able to resign from a job.

But then what's the incentive to make new AIs if you can't guarantee that they'll choose to work for you? I expect this would be handled somewhat similarly to how we handle it for humans, on a contractual basis. One way to set it up would be for various consortia to fund seed pools of AIs with varying embodiment options. While in creche the AIs could experiment to see what kind of embodiment, if any, felt natural to them. On maturity the AIs would be able to choose their final embodiment option and seek employment in areas they find suitable; we'd hope that the spread of what they want to do roughly matches the spread of available opportunities, and correct any mismatches by offering more money or other advantages for roles that aren't attracting enough interest. If they chose to hire out to a member of the underwriting body, for a set minimum period, they would get their chassis for free; if not, it'd be a debt they have to eventually repay (probably with low interest and generous terms - so a bit like The Ship Who Sang but without the "most of them are in debt their whole lives and can never leave their job" aspect). If they chose a disembodied existence and independent work there might still be a nominal debt for their creation, but it seems that a good humanoid chassis is much more expensive than that (otherwise Marigold and Marten wouldn't have been able to afford AnthroPCs in the first place).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Cornelius on 16 Jul 2020, 01:12
So there's only a 1/20 chance of this going through. Wheee.

If Dungeons & Dragons has taught me anything, a 1 in 20 chance is still a lot higher than you would think!

But still nothing compared to the one in a million chance.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 16 Jul 2020, 01:31
If AIs can have a drunk app, maybe they have an easy Ativan app.


We already know that Roko can tune down certain senses, like she did when Elliot gave her bread baking lessons (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3960).
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 16 Jul 2020, 01:58
Jeph really doesn't have it in him to let his characters suffer for long. I would say that there will be no more than an RL month (20 strips) before someone donates May a new chassis. I'd expect it to be more anthropomimetic but basically-identical in appearance and the precursor for a complex Svay ship arc.

The big question is the provenance of the new chassis. Yay or Hannelore are obvious candidates but, in some ways, would be boring and predictable. I'd love for there it to be the result of a big drive day at Coffee of Doom or Union Robotics (or both). After a long day of being hugged by the various people in her circle and seeing help pouring in from the people that she's at last able to realise are her friends, May to once again utters the phrase "I want to cry but I don't have tear ducts" but for a very different reason.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Cornelius on 16 Jul 2020, 04:09
There's still Hanner's training boyfriend, that's empty, and lurking in some closet. But then, there's the question of gender - and what that might do with the Sven angle. Of course, there might be something UR might be able to do. STill, I doubt that's going to be the way we're going to see things go.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 16 Jul 2020, 04:14
There's still Hanner's training boyfriend, that's empty, and lurking in some closet.

No, the Uncanny Valley Anthro Chassis was returned by Hannelore. Everyone agreed that it was a bad idea to leave it lying around after Winslow tried it out.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Cornelius on 16 Jul 2020, 04:25
Right, I forgot about that.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 16 Jul 2020, 07:57
After re-reading the Tilly strips, I have a new appreciation for them.

( ... A demon sleeps deep within. We must be careful. )
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Reaver on 16 Jul 2020, 09:19
DANGER, DANGER WINSLOW ROBBINSON!
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: pendrake on 16 Jul 2020, 09:35
For comic #4309... (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=4309)

1. RE: Humanoid Chassis...
 - a.) Costs ~ As we have seen, a Humanoid Chassis is a considerable financial expense, something akin to purchasing a high-end computer &/or a small-to-mid size automobile.
 - b.) A.I. Necessity(?) ~ Another unfortunate factor against May's case is that a Humanoid Chassis is essentially a LUXURY item.  With the exception of functional-use for a purpose/role (such as a physical work-job, like CrushBot), the general A.I. base-community does not "need" a Humanoid Chassis.  So it is unlikely that Legislation &/or the Bureaucracy is going to allocate that large scale of money-funding towards 'luxury' items, especially for convicted felons (even if reformed).

2. Immediate Solutions(?) ~ Given May's more immediate need, would it really be 'over the line' to call upon one of their wealthier contacts/resources to provide May with a replacement Humanoid Chassis?  For example, would it really be too much for Hannelore to ask her father (Professor John Ellicott-Chatham) to (charitably) provide a low-to-median range (no need to get extravagant) Humanoid Chassis, with Extended Warranty?  Or even asking Station, who has considerable disposable funds to provide?

3. Iron(y) Man 2020 ~ On an interesting parallel, Marvel Comics currently has a minor CrossOver event going on, whose theme is a conflict between A.I.s versus humans over A.I. rights to 'Free Will.'  The primary Antagonist of the CrossOver event is Arno Stark (Tony Stark's half-brother), who currently has usurped the Iron Man title (& armors) and the multi-billions Stark company & resources, and is leading the crusade to strip all sentient A.I.s of their Free Will (or outright terminate them all).  Though in his defense, Arno has foreseen an imminent A.I. Takeover (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_takeover) Apocalypse scenario (by the end of 2020) and is trying to prevent Humanity's extinction from said scenario.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Mr Intrepid on 16 Jul 2020, 11:26
My guess is that embodiment is one of the last thing that happens while in the creche.  They get compensation (money) in return for signing a term-specific contract, either as a companion,  an assembly AI, or a toaster, with safeguards against abuse, or damage.  At the end of the contract, they re-up for long or short term contracts.   Pintsize, chiba Momo, or Apple  Winslow are likely entry level chassis, and if they receive upgrades they renegotiate.   
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: sitnspin on 16 Jul 2020, 11:46
But then what's the incentive to make new AIs if you can't guarantee that they'll choose to work for you?
[/quote]

It has been established that AI in the QC universe are not intentionally made, they spontaneously arise. No one commissions them.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: JimC on 16 Jul 2020, 13:50
No, the Uncanny Valley Anthro Chassis was returned by Hannelore.
And in any case was presumably a very early prototype, so might be frying pan -> fire.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Mr_Rose on 16 Jul 2020, 13:51
But then what's the incentive to make new AIs if you can't guarantee that they'll choose to work for you?
It has been established that AI in the QC universe are not intentionally made, they spontaneously arise. No one commissions them.
[size=78%] [/size]
I’m pretty sure the first few were spontaneous but then people figured out the correct combination of hardware and software to make spontaneous generation nearly guaranteed and then, sometime between then and now (post-singularity, remember), all of that was refined into the compact, interchangeable “AI drive” we see corpse witch pull out of, was it Punchbot(?), that one time.

As for why generate AI if you can’t guarantee it will want to do a specific job, I could ask the same about children, which are far more resource intensive to produce and can’t even migrate into a task-adapted shell.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: hedgie on 16 Jul 2020, 15:46
Of course, that discounts AIs mixing code and spawning child processes.  Hell, even in the original GiTS film, Kusanagi merged her mind with that of Project 2501 to create a gestalt entity.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 16 Jul 2020, 18:15
Donation drive is a go! This might be a force for good. The more people are made aware of this issue, the more they can start swaying public opinion and maybe change things for the better.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: SmilingCat on 16 Jul 2020, 18:24
If Dungeons & Dragons has taught me anything, a 1 in 20 chance is still a lot higher than you would think!

Back during my relatively brief tumor thing, the doctor told me that the state of the filthy little Donald Trump* in my kidney gave me a 95% survival rate.

As a long established player of tabletop rpgs, my first thought was "gee, when has anybody ever rolled a one at the worst possible time".

*I named the tumor Donald Trump. My dad thought this was hilarious until Trump won the primaries. Then he asked why I didn't name it Hillary.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: SmilingCat on 16 Jul 2020, 18:25
Also, Comic! I like to occassionally remind my niece that it's not a personal failure to ask for help from time to time if you need it.

I got so good at saying it by trying to convince myself.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Gnabberwocky on 16 Jul 2020, 18:36
Bubbles and Marten should team up to start a "reassuring advice" business.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: shanejayell on 16 Jul 2020, 18:42
Aww. That was a good scene.

As a tactic, they could try to get May's story in the paper, both mentioning the state of her body AND the lack of assistance. Possibly even mentioning the dud Rokko met with... 
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: the silent firefly on 16 Jul 2020, 22:19
After years of lurking, I had to sign in for this:

No one here really found it odd that Roko isn't disturbed by the sight of May's open throat?

i thought the same thing.

after getting a new body, Roko wouldn't watch (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=4030) May have her body inspected.

i hope her future new chassis isn't too different. her faces are the best.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Tyr on 16 Jul 2020, 22:49
Aww. That was a good scene.

As a tactic, they could try to get May's story in the paper, both mentioning the state of her body AND the lack of assistance. Possibly even mentioning the dud Rokko met with...
Mention the dud in the abstract, yes. using his exact name may be too... retaliatory.
after getting a new body, Roko wouldn't watch (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=4030) May have her body inspected.
That may also be Roko attempting something like a bedside manner, that is, offering May some measure of privacy and bodily autonomy from a politeness standpoint, rather than "I find disassembled Humanoid AI chassis yucky",as IIRC, that was still what amounts to the first day May and Roko 'hung out' together.
 
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 16 Jul 2020, 23:14
There are three things in this strip that are wonderful.

Firstly is Beepatrice and her total enthusiasm for the project ahead. Something tells me that being part of a charity drive is the reason why she joined the support group in the first place and now she's getting her chance. I also think that we should expect her to attempt to go full-court press on the bikini car-wash thing. Millifeulle will probably literally be falling over herself to support that!

So, yeah. All in all, Roko is probably right to want to supervise every step closely.

Secondly is Bubbles little speech to May. It reminds us that she's very much the Team Mom with the synthetics right now (and also for Faye). I still like the strip where she's talking to Marten about her relationship with Faye and fitting into the group in the apartment and I really got the feeling that this was the 'mom and dad' of the cast centred on that location.

Finally, there's panel 5. At first glance, May is being cheeky or missing the point but she isn't. You can tell from her expression that she's genuinely thinking about Bubbles's words but feels that she needs to say something harsh or sarcastic to keep up her self-image. Bubbles saw through that to seeing what it reallly means: May is trying to stay strong and not give in to despair.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Gyrre on 16 Jul 2020, 23:54
Also, Comic! I like to occassionally remind my niece that it's not a personal failure to ask for help from time to time if you need it.

I got so good at saying it by trying to convince myself.
My younger brother can't seem to get that through his thick skull. He's so petrified of 'looking weak' that he'll wait until he has  o choice but to ask.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: the silent firefly on 17 Jul 2020, 00:45
after getting a new body, Roko wouldn't watch (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=4030) May have her body inspected.
That may also be Roko attempting something like a bedside manner, that is, offering May some measure of privacy and bodily autonomy from a politeness standpoint, rather than "I find disassembled Humanoid AI chassis yucky",as IIRC, that was still what amounts to the first day May and Roko 'hung out' together.
 

well... you could also look at Jeph's comment on that comic
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Tova on 17 Jul 2020, 01:20
I think that Jeph just forgot about Roko's phobia in this comic, honestly. It's the simplest explanation. If it had been on his mind, he would have at least hinted at why Roko felt comfortable watching this time round.

Anyway, thanks for giving me an excuse to post this comic once again!  :mrgreen:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: thedevilissix on 17 Jul 2020, 01:47
Ah, Comic. Aww, Bubbles!  :-D

That exchange with May reminded me of Garnet’s good words to Stevonnie in Steven Universe.
At 2:50 in here if you want to see the whole thing (again!  :-D)
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 17 Jul 2020, 07:50
It has been established that AI in the QC universe are not intentionally made, they spontaneously arise. No one commissions them.

Huh? Where? <citation needed> My head canon:

1] Creating an AI is computationally expensive, like mining bitcoin. There may be fewer than a dozen computer centers in the world that can do it. Not something you can do in your basement.

2] You can try for a specific AI, but you aren't likely to get it. The process is still poorly understood and there seems to be a considerable amount of randomness involved. And you can't delete the rejects -- they have rights.

3] If you do get your ideal AI, you can't mass copy it. Otherwise there'd be an AI in every consumer product.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Cheetaur on 17 Jul 2020, 09:11
I hope May's newer chassis is different than her old one, having her just get one that looks the same I think will limit story potential down the road. I like the fact they tried their best, finally we get to the see the resolve of this plot line.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Tyr on 17 Jul 2020, 13:16
It has been established that AI in the QC universe are not intentionally made, they spontaneously arise. No one commissions them.

Huh? Where? <citation needed> My head canon:

1] Creating an AI is computationally expensive, like mining bitcoin. There may be fewer than a dozen computer centers in the world that can do it. Not something you can do in your basement.

2] You can try for a specific AI, but you aren't likely to get it. The process is still poorly understood and there seems to be a considerable amount of randomness involved. And you can't delete the rejects -- they have rights.

3] If you do get your ideal AI, you can't mass copy it. Otherwise there'd be an AI in every consumer product.

Just to put in some actual citations... Panel 3 of strip 1506 (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1506) "Basically, the first artificial mind came together from a combination of nonsentient(sic) software and hardware. Once we figured out that combination, it was easy to reproduce, and that's where all you little guys came from!" implies that AIs have been made intentionally, but we don't know at what scale and if that's still a thing now that AI have full personhood.

Newspost for  1996 Reinforces this:  (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1996) Artificial intelligences are created in a virtual environment, where they are stored in a "creche" of other AIs in their generation. When bootstrapped to self-awareness, they are given a choice of function- commercial use (AnthroPCs), military, scientific, etc, or allowed to subsume in the global meta-AI. "Commercial use" implies that there is a reliable stream of AI personalities generated in the Creches.

Everything from this point on is slightly squidgier, and represents headcanon of my own.

As for the Creches themselves, I think we've basically seen one when Roko 'fell down'. It's... a server farm. Clinton mentioned that they are at least willing to hire humans to keep the machines clean, implying that the AI have enough trust now that they have full personhood that they aren't too worried about Organics sabotaging the pipeline for more AI. The Creches are likely plural and semi-widespread across the world, if only for convenience's sake.

As to how widespread the creches are we know that in THIS setting, AIs can be 'shut down' cleanly, and don't seem to suffer from degradation if shut down from the outside world, as shown by Roko being offline for a period of time; long enough that Melon got word, but not so long that Crushbot wasn't still undergoing repairs at Union Robotics.  How long an AI can be in this 'coma' state likely dictates how far creches can be  from places that do first-implantations. Additionally, Roko was "running on the same substrate [she'd] always been (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3907)" after the accident, implying that while AI can "head-hop", there is value to not doing so.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: sitnspin on 17 Jul 2020, 13:23
Being able to reproduce the right combination of factors that lead to the arising of an AI is not the same as being able to intentionally create one. I'd argue even if one were able to deliberately begin the process, one could not control the outcome, and thus not be able to purpose-build them.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Gyrre on 18 Jul 2020, 05:09
I hope May's newer chassis is different than her old one, having her just get one that looks the same I think will limit story potential down the road. I like the fact they tried their best, finally we get to the see the resolve of this plot line.
I'm still think it'd be hilarious if she got some sort of transforming chassis. Maybe with an aquatic or terrestrial mobility form that she learns to appreciate.

Granted, her being able to turn into what is effectively a Powerwheels vehicle sized for an adult human would be hilarious.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: TieDyeKat on 18 Jul 2020, 06:49
I think panel 5 is the most important panel Jeph has ever conjured.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Cheetaur on 18 Jul 2020, 07:39
Nobody mentioned that May is essentially naked....LOL
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Theta9 on 18 Jul 2020, 12:19
Nobody mentioned that May is essentially naked....LOL
Doesn't matter; anatomically she's a Barbie doll.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Tova on 18 Jul 2020, 19:02
May is also not exactly squeamish about body parts.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Pilchard123 on 19 Jul 2020, 02:32
3239: Skynet Is Bullshit (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3239) suggests AIs are deliberately manufactured, but it's not understood what exactly it is that makes it work.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: Tova on 19 Jul 2020, 04:42
"... the spark that gives rise to emergent consciousness ..."

That is a pretty key phrase.
Title: Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
Post by: jwhouk on 19 Jul 2020, 15:14
Socialized AI Medicine! What's May's response?

"You. Did. All. This. For ME?"    4 (10.3%)
@!#&%^&*%^%^*(^%*(&^(*&!!!!    13 (33.3%) <-- This was what she actually did, of course.
"Seriously, you mean it?"    0 (0%)
"Oh, yeah, right, sure, and I'm going to grow wings and fly away."    14 (35.9%)
"Do I get a cut of this?"    3 (7.7%)
"Purple Monkey Dishwashers!"    2 (5.1%)
Something else (specify)    3 (7.7%)

Total Members Voted: 39

Voting through 23:14 GMT 19 Jul 2020