THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)

Comic Discussion => QUESTIONABLE CONTENT => Topic started by: Gyrre on 15 Aug 2020, 08:40

Title: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Gyrre on 15 Aug 2020, 08:40
Everybody progresses at a different rate on the romance front, and not everyone is even interested in romance.
What may come of this, time (and Jeph) will tell. Hopefully, we find out this week.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: cybersmurf on 15 Aug 2020, 09:16
Everybody progresses at a different rate on the romance front, and not everyone is even interested in romance.
What may come of this, time (and Jeph) will tell. Hopefully, we find out this week.

Or have forgotten how that feels. I've heard of people who felt like teenagers again after having gone back to dating after decades and meeting the right people.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 15 Aug 2020, 14:47
I had my first serious (and only) relationship at 19, and ended up marrying him. Which is great in many ways, although I sometimes wonder if I have 'missed out' on anything by not dating around more. Luckily my husband is the kind of person I can talk to about things like that.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 15 Aug 2020, 20:26
Happy for you!

As far as "missing out" goes, my wife and I have a recurring exchange that goes
"Thank you for saving me from dating".
"No, thank you for saving me from dating".
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Gyrre on 16 Aug 2020, 02:01
I had my first serious (and only) relationship at 19, and ended up marrying him. Which is great in many ways, although I sometimes wonder if I have 'missed out' on anything by not dating around more. Luckily my husband is the kind of person I can talk to about things like that.

As I understand it, that's a somewhat common sentiment. Though, dwelling on what could have been often gets us nowhere.
[Unless you're writing an alternative history story of some variety.]
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 16 Aug 2020, 02:31
It's not like I'm spending my days grieving over lost dating opportunities ;) It comes up sometimes while watching movies and seeing the characters there moving through different relationships, getting over break ups and heartbreaks, etc. I've never done that, and that makes me feel like I can't really understand what the characters are experiencing. It's a small niggle, and not something that keeps me up at night.

You never know what life is going to throw at you, so I might still get to do this (break up, etc), only at a later stage of life.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 16 Aug 2020, 15:57
Pwhodges once posted the brutal fact that all relationships end, either in a breakup or a funeral.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Zebediah on 16 Aug 2020, 18:00
Comic’s up.

Sometimes a pork burrito is just a pork burrito. And sometimes it isn’t.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Tova on 16 Aug 2020, 18:22
This is what I was expecting from Friday's comic.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: jwhouk on 16 Aug 2020, 18:30
QC: Subverting Expectations since 2003.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Gnabberwocky on 16 Aug 2020, 18:31
How long are we going to have to wait?

Prepare the meat grinder. I can't deal with this.  :psyduck:
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 16 Aug 2020, 18:34
Ha, called it! I figured Clinton would have to go away and think about it :)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Tova on 16 Aug 2020, 18:48
QC: Subverting Expectations since 2003.

There are probably more interesting examples of subverting expectations than, "This happened one day later than expected..."
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: shanejayell on 16 Aug 2020, 19:09
Don't you hate it when they get the filling wrong?  :-P
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: immortalfrieza on 16 Aug 2020, 21:29
I figured as much. Considering Clinton isn't just straight out saying "I'm not gay" then presumably he is bisexual. Well, at least Clinton has had only one and very brief on screen relationship with a woman and he's stated to have little to no real success with women before then. It's not like Jeph is contradicting any previously established history here.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: St.Clair on 16 Aug 2020, 21:29
lol "pork"
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 16 Aug 2020, 23:09
Poor Elliot though! It says a lot about him that he was expecting Clinton to say no to the point where he was actually trying to twist everything around into a coded phrase for 'no' or some kind of indirect rejection. I don't know if he's got low self-esteem or has just been rejected a lot (and, honestly, I cannot see why the latter would be the case).

Burrito lady? There is a reason why you should always write down your orders.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: TV4Fun on 16 Aug 2020, 23:51
Poor Elliot though! It says a lot about him that he was expecting Clinton to say no to the point where he was actually trying to twist everything around into a coded phrase for 'no' or some kind of indirect rejection. I don't know if he's got low self-esteem or has just been rejected a lot (and, honestly, I cannot see why the latter would be the case).

Burrito lady? There is a reason why you should always write down your orders.
Self-confidence counts for a lot, and I've seen people with all different appearances and body types being bullied and outcast not any number of stupid reasons.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Cornelius on 17 Aug 2020, 00:09
I don't know if he's got low self-esteem or has just been rejected a lot (and, honestly, I cannot see why the latter would be the case).

May I point to all previous remarks and discussion around large people and trying to act non-threatening? That's at least one reason.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: hedgie on 17 Aug 2020, 00:53
Absolutely.  I'm 6'4", and of a larger build than I'd like.  I'm extremely self-conscious about it, and do try to make myself look smaller all the time, especially when I get the vibe that someone finds it intimidating.  As a result, I generally try to be polite, and kinda vanish into the background.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 17 Aug 2020, 01:21
Yeah, Elliot does have that problem (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1868)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: cybersmurf on 17 Aug 2020, 02:21
Got stuffed with the wrong meat. Accidents happen.

I'd be happy for both Clinton and Elliot to work out.
BuT wHaT aBoUt Brun? I don't think she's interested in either of them, and she'll find some other person.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 17 Aug 2020, 04:06
BuT wHaT aBoUt Brun? I don't think she's interested in either of them, and she'll find some other person.

Brun is a difficult case to assess; I honestly wonder if she may be aromantic. In any case, I suspect that she more than most of the main cast cannot be expected to just guess from Elliot and Clinton's behaviour that they're romantically interested in her. Clinton has told her that he finds her attractive but she responded so non-committally to that I'm not sure she made the connection between physical attraction and romantic attraction. This may be due to her experiences; it is implied that her former boss coerced her into letting customers sexually abuse her so she might have a difficult time associating physical attraction with anything positive.

That said, Brun's first date (with Millifeulle) seems to have surprised her (I don't think that she knew what a 'date' was supposed to be or that she could like it). So, who knows, if Clinton and Elliot finally have the courage to tell her about  their feelings, it may trigger a response that is far more positive than anyone can believe!
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 17 Aug 2020, 04:51
It's not like I'm spending my days grieving over lost dating opportunities ;) It comes up sometimes while watching movies and seeing the characters there moving through different relationships, getting over break ups and heartbreaks, etc. I've never done that, and that makes me feel like I can't really understand what the characters are experiencing. It's a small niggle, and not something that keeps me up at night.

You never know what life is going to throw at you, so I might still get to do this (break up, etc), only at a later stage of life.

Never Ever EVER feel you've missed out on anything by not having had any other partners.
I've had many. (including one early marriage that was over within 2 years)
I'm 57 now, was married again 4 years ago, and some memories of many of my previous relationships still (for want of a better word) haunt me.
The nice things always seem to fade away, but the hellishness of break-ups, after all the words of love and caring and "forever"-ness - still burn a little.

All you've missed is heartbreak - and a lifetime of dwelling on things that went wrong (with sometimes no real reason behind it)  - and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

("But you need adversity to grow!" - Feck that... I've never believed that, and never will.)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: jwhouk on 17 Aug 2020, 06:18
Burrito lady? There is a reason why you should always write down your orders.

We just had a name for those two: Burrito Lady and Burrito Bot.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 17 Aug 2020, 09:29
I believe Clinton -did- say 'pork'. BluBelle is being snarky.

(I'll call her that because Blue Bell is close to her RGB skin tone.)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Pilchard123 on 17 Aug 2020, 10:02
[...] it is implied that her former boss coerced her into letting customers sexually abuse her [...]

It is? When?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 17 Aug 2020, 10:41
[...] it is implied that her former boss coerced her into letting customers sexually abuse her [...]

It is? When?

I wish I remembered in detail but I think it was in the same arc where Brun and Clinton went on a similar not-date to the one Clinton went on with Elliot just now. During which they talked about relationships and Brun mentioned that her employer had pressured her to let the clientele leer at her and generally disrespect her boundaries.

IIRC, it included Clinton visualising Elliot as a giant caveman ready to fight him for Brun's attention.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Kairi on 17 Aug 2020, 11:36
The body language going on here is so nuanced and I love it so much. Also, Clinton saying "the only thing messed up about lunch" etc sounds like EXACTLY SOMETHING I WOULD SAY if I were trying to secret-code-style reassure someone I liked them without saying it out loud yet

that might not be what's happening here but aksjdhksjdhkjh I relate
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Gnabberwocky on 17 Aug 2020, 12:35
BuT wHaT aBoUt Brun? I don't think she's interested in either of them, and she'll find some other person.

Brun is a difficult case to assess; I honestly wonder if she may be aromantic.

---big snip---

I don't think Brun has figured out her own sexual/romantic orientation yet. When she went on the breakfast date with Mille, she didn't really hint at how she felt other than friendship. With Brun, "It was fun to do that with you" could mean anything from polite disinterest to an expression of love. Probably not polite disinterest--her thoughts showed she was being honest--but it's tricky to tell if it went past friendship. Same with Clinton; she sort of takes in any information he gives her and stores it away.

Out of all the possible speculations, aromantic makes the most sense, but I think it's too early to tell.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: alc40 on 17 Aug 2020, 13:13
[...] it is implied that her former boss coerced her into letting customers sexually abuse her [...]

It is? When?

I wish I remembered in detail but I think it was in the same arc where Brun and Clinton went on a similar not-date to the one Clinton went on with Elliot just now. During which they talked about relationships and Brun mentioned that her employer had pressured her to let the clientele leer at her and generally disrespect her boundaries.

IIRC, it included Clinton visualising Elliot as a giant caveman ready to fight him for Brun's attention.
I can't find anything with all those pieces together, but here are the closest things I could find:

3262 (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3262): Brun's former boss possibly doing "something ethically questionable"
3446 (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3446): mention of a bar patron harassing Brun (no mention of the boss knowing)
3496 (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3496): Brun & Clinton having lunch together
3507 (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3507): Clinton imagines Elliot as a cave man
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Pilchard123 on 17 Aug 2020, 13:53
I always read the "ethically questionable" as things like "watering down the beer" or "not declaring things for tax", tbh.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Zebediah on 17 Aug 2020, 13:58
There's another possibility with Brun. Sometimes those of us on the autism spectrum get the idea that romantic relationships are off-limits to us, because "Who would ever want to be with a weirdo like you?" Brun likely had to endure some of that kind of bullying, judging by the glimpse we saw of her high school years. She might have simply resigned herself to the idea that romance is another one of those things that she's not allowed to do, and is only slowly starting to get the idea that it might not be so.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Mr_Rose on 17 Aug 2020, 14:10
I always read the "ethically questionable" as things like "watering down the beer" or "not declaring things for tax", tbh.
Or the Classical trick of swapping a cheaper beer with approximately the same colour in for whatever the customer actually ordered once you judge them drunk enough not to notice.
Watering beer is actually jail time illegal in some places while “accidentally” serving the wrong thing isn’t - especially if you apologise and give a refund when (if) they complain.
Other options include topping off discarded/abandoned drinks and serving them to new customers, serving Dollar-store wine mixed with sugar and cheap vodka as “sherry”, and of course good old fashioned charging more per pint as they get more soused, most of which are straight up illegal in most places, but that only stops a few people.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Cornelius on 17 Aug 2020, 14:37
In my grandparents' bar, it was usual to swap the drink ordered by someone who had had to many with something alcohol free - or close enough not to matter - but they didn't charge incorrectly. Then again, it's not the kind of thing that really can fly if you have mostly regulars, who know what the policy is. And they also knew there's be a ride home, if needed.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 17 Aug 2020, 14:52
Other options include topping off discarded/abandoned drinks and serving them to new customers


This is how pandemics start :/
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: zisraelsen on 17 Aug 2020, 18:26
Comic up!

Claire's got to learn to pretend to be chill again. (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3298)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 17 Aug 2020, 18:35
Claire has NEVER BEEN HAPPIER. Her brother has finally asked her for relationship advice!
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: shanejayell on 17 Aug 2020, 18:52
 :-D  Poor Clinton.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Gnabberwocky on 17 Aug 2020, 19:02
:-D  Poor Clinton.

Clinton needs to just buckle down and ask her if she can hold back on the squealing until they've finished talking. We've seen plenty of proof that Claire can be reasonable and give good advice, but in her current state, I doubt she'd be much of a help.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Gyrre on 17 Aug 2020, 21:53
I can't blame Clinton for having that reaction.
Had I a sister who did that, that'd be my reaction too. Hell, that be my reaction if my older brother did that as well.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: gprimr1 on 17 Aug 2020, 21:53
In my own life, I was taught the "F*ck Yes" rule. If you ask someone out, anything other than a "F*ck Yes" (Not literally that word, but used to imply a definitive and firm yes) is really a no.

I've found it's generally true. "Maybe" "I'll get back to you" "I"ll let you know" "I'll think about it" "We might" "We could" generally are code for "no."

So I'll be interested to see how this places out.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: hedgie on 17 Aug 2020, 22:07
Personally, I’ve mostly stumbled into my relationships.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Carl-E on 17 Aug 2020, 22:15
In my own life, I was taught the "F*ck Yes" rule. If you ask someone out, anything other than a "F*ck Yes" (Not literally that word, but used to imply a definitive and firm yes) is really a no.

I've found it's generally true. "Maybe" "I'll get back to you" "I"ll let you know" "I'll think about it" "We might" "We could" generally are code for "no."

So I'll be interested to see how this places out.

Elliot skirted around really asking Clinton out, though.  Not sure he everreally did, just implied it...


Expecting anything other than skirting around the topic from Clinton may be expecting too much.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 17 Aug 2020, 23:21
It's taken us a while to get here but, at last, we've come to the essential core and truth of Claire's worldview: She wants everyone she knows to live in a cheesy and lightly comedic romance!

Of course, I think that her own experience with Marten has greatly influenced her. The whole thing has been a bizarre series of meet-cute incidents, comedic misunderstandings and unplanned sweetly romantic moments. It's influenced her to assume that this is how an ideal romance happens! Yes, there have been missteps but, all-in-all, she's pretty sure that it's ideal so everyone else should be part of this narrative too!

Will she eventually walk into the Fourth Wall?

Claire has NEVER BEEN HAPPIER. Her brother has finally asked her for relationship advice!

It's not the possibility of giving advice that overjoys Claire, it's the possibility that Clinton is also now in his own romcom!
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: snubnose on 17 Aug 2020, 23:28
[...] although I sometimes wonder if I have 'missed out' on anything by not dating around more. [...]
Hollywood movies keep talking about that, but why the heck would that ever be true.

A failed relationship is just a hole in your heart you gladly forget about over time. Its no fun and its nothing anyone needs.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: hedgie on 17 Aug 2020, 23:35
At best, it's a painful learning experience.  I knew one couple that got married a few days after he turned 18 (she was about two weeks older).  No one in our social circle thought that it'd last, but 20 years on, as far as I know, they're still happy together.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 18 Aug 2020, 00:47
Claire does like rom coms (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2481)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Scarlet Manuka on 18 Aug 2020, 01:06
I had my first serious (and only) relationship at 19, and ended up marrying him. Which is great in many ways, although I sometimes wonder if I have 'missed out' on anything by not dating around more.
I started dating at 20, married her at 23, and nearly 24 years later we're still together and have three teenagers (yay...).

I would agree with what others have said, that you have not missed out on anything that you would be better off for having experienced. Though of course I'm in the same boat as you and you might fairly consider my perspective to be lacking in this area.

If there's something that you have to do often, it makes sense to learn to cope with failure. If you are doing maths homework and you can't get a proof to come out right, it's good to examine that and develop strategies for the next time you get stuck, and also to make sure you keep trying and don't just give up. But that's because you know you're going to get more maths homework, and you want to do better next time.

But with relationships, if you get it right the first time, you don't have to go and do another one the next week. Instead you can devote your time and energy to the one you have already established and nurture it, which is better for all involved.

Would life have been different if you'd chosen someone else? Yes, and undoubtedly it would be better in some ways and worse in others. But that's not the point. It's not about trying to find your "soulmate" (a poisonous notion for which popular media has much to answer). It's about making a choice and a committment. Part of that committment is not spending serious time wondering about the other choices you could have made. The occasional "what if" isn't a problem, but if you find yourself asking it more and more often, you need to start paying attention to the choice you did make, because there's work that needs to be done. Any successful long term relationship needs continuing work and investment, just as a home or a car needs maintenance. It's easy to let it drift until the minor, unnoticed issues suddenly build up to something big, and a ceiling falls down or steam starts coming from the engine. We all have to guard against that tendency.

As for whether adversity makes you stronger - really commit to a marriage and over the course of a few decades you'll undoubtedly encounter all the adversity you need. It's not in short supply! There's no need for nor moral benefit to piling it up ahead of time.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: traroth on 18 Aug 2020, 01:28
Claire has NEVER BEEN HAPPIER. Her brother has finally asked her for relationship advice!

And she blew it spectacularly!
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: traroth on 18 Aug 2020, 01:34
In my own life, I was taught the "F*ck Yes" rule. If you ask someone out, anything other than a "F*ck Yes" (Not literally that word, but used to imply a definitive and firm yes) is really a no.

I've found it's generally true. "Maybe" "I'll get back to you" "I"ll let you know" "I'll think about it" "We might" "We could" generally are code for "no."

So I'll be interested to see how this places out.

I can imagine that asking a known heterosexual to enter an homosexual relationship could lead to some convoluted situations, whatever the final outcome would be...
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: TinPenguin on 18 Aug 2020, 03:10
If you're a teenager or an uncomplicated 20-something, maybe this rule is relevant.

There are so many good reasons for "let me think about it". The person had not previously considered whether they were attracted to you. They hadn't considered whether they could be attracted to your gender.  They've made mistakes from rushing in too quick before. They were not mentally prepared for this social situation and need to calm down their brain before answering. They have a family or other responsibilities. They're about to move far away. They are asexual or aromantic and hadn't realised relationships could be a thing for them. They have health issues and the concept of a future is shaky at best. They have a deeply personal secret which they would have to trust you with. They're not sure if you're a vampire.

Speaking for myself, when I asked out my partner, about half of those were the case.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: ihaveavoice on 18 Aug 2020, 03:46
TinPenguin said it very well. While that "fuck yes" rule would be great in the context of consent, it doesn't work as well when it comes to automatically reading outright rejection into someone needing a bit more time to work out their response to a question. You'd certainly end up outright rejected if you stressed the other party out by showing them that's how you felt about them needing time to think! And I think Clinton made it very clear that he was genuinely open to the possibility and planning to think about this.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Thrillho on 18 Aug 2020, 05:50
I had my first serious (and only) relationship at 19, and ended up marrying him. Which is great in many ways, although I sometimes wonder if I have 'missed out' on anything by not dating around more. Luckily my husband is the kind of person I can talk to about things like that.

I got married at 21 and divorced at 23. If you're still happy, then I don't think you've missed out on anything.

In my own life, I was taught the "F*ck Yes" rule. If you ask someone out, anything other than a "F*ck Yes" (Not literally that word, but used to imply a definitive and firm yes) is really a no.

I've found it's generally true. "Maybe" "I'll get back to you" "I"ll let you know" "I'll think about it" "We might" "We could" generally are code for "no."

So I'll be interested to see how this places out.

I do not share this experience.

Add mine to the chorus of the penguin and the voice.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Tova on 18 Aug 2020, 05:54
I also agree that "let me think about it" can't simply be interpreted as a "no," and I am pretty confident that Clinton is not speaking in code. I don't really think that's him.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: snubnose on 18 Aug 2020, 07:53
[...] They're not sure if you're a vampire.
For the record: I'm definitely a vampire. I dont like the sun. I got a sunburn two weeks ago and it still friggin hurts. And I used a factor 30 protection creme and applied it twice. :-\ Still wasnt enough. :-\

Sun = evil !!!
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: sitnspin on 18 Aug 2020, 08:05
I had my first serious (and only) relationship at 19, and ended up marrying him. Which is great in many ways, although I sometimes wonder if I have 'missed out' on anything by not dating around more. Luckily my husband is the kind of person I can talk to about things like that.

I got married at 21 and divorced at 23. If you're still happy, then I don't think you've missed out on anything.



Married at 21, widowed at 24, and I concur.

What matters is that you are happy. Mind you, I am non-monogamous, so I never really stopped dating, but still, there is no "missing out" as there is no universal path to follow. You found someone you enjoy being with, so it sounds like you had exactly the experience you wanted /needed.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Case on 18 Aug 2020, 09:36
I figured as much. Considering Clinton isn't just straight out saying "I'm not gay" then presumably he is bisexual. Well, at least Clinton has had only one and very brief on screen relationship with a woman and he's stated to have little to no real success with women before then. It's not like Jeph is contradicting any previously established history here.

I'm not so sure that not straight-up saying "I'm not gay" means that Clinton is bi - if he were a Gen-Xer or Boomer, that heuristic might make (have made?) sense, but I suspect that Millenials and Gen-Z feel much less pressure to sort themselves neatly into categories, and are much less afraid of having non-hetero thoughts and desires.

Way I remember coming of age in the late 80s/early 90s, that was still a 'thing' - you were gay or you weren't, and I doubt that many of my generation would have felt comfortable with a 'Maaaaaybe?'. And we spoke of (in-)tolerance rather than affirmation (of diversity).


Edit: When I say 'we', I mean "90s woke people" (and I agree that '90s woke' isn't very woke at all) - there was a lot of hostility towards queer people, and a lot of "tolerance for intolerance" even from 'progressives'.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: gprimr1 on 18 Aug 2020, 11:36
I do agree that it is a different dymanic.

It is very interesting to hear different perspectives, and especially those who have found that "maybe" can mean "yes" in the context of dating (not in terms of consent.)

In my experience, if I ask someone out and they reply with anything other than a yes, it is a no. If I follow up on a maybe, they will either give me another maybe, a "no" or simply not reply.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: N.N. Marf on 18 Aug 2020, 15:13
Edit: When I say 'we', I mean "90s woke people" (and I agree that '90s woke' isn't very woke at all) - there was a lot of hostility towards queer people, and a lot of "tolerance for intolerance" even from 'progressives'.
The way I see it, intolerance should be considered a disorder, sometimes debilitating---if the intolerant person finds himself unable to interact well with the persons he cannot tolerate. I don't think tolerance of intolerance necessarily condones intolerance, but is simply the ability to interact with the intolerant person. I'm quite tolerant of intolerance---to wit, I've years tolerant cohabitation with an aggressive bigot---but that doesn't stop me avoiding intolerants, discouraging intolerance.
In my experience, if I ask someone out and they reply with anything other than a yes, it is a no. If I follow up on a maybe, they will either give me another maybe, a "no" or simply not reply.
I think the reason for this is that, by default, you're not in the relationship, and entering a relationship requires all parties' consent. I prefer having a firm ``yes,'' before considering myself in a relationship, because it makes my internal bookkeeping about it cleaner. The way I have it is that, if there's no firm ``yes,'' then the relationship that is the case might be something that's very similar, and sometimes it's only later acknowledged by all parties, at which point it could be that the only difference in the relationship is that just before, there wasn't the acknowledgement, and then there was.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: SotFX on 18 Aug 2020, 16:25
I also agree that "let me think about it" can't simply be interpreted as a "no," and I am pretty confident that Clinton is not speaking in code. I don't really think that's him.

Even if it is a no, I can see this also as another messed up thing that he's got to figure out how to deal with.

A friend asking you out can be difficult to deal with anyway there because no matter how you answer it, the result can change the relationship alot.

On top of that, Clinton is already socially awkward, he's missing a lot of social cues and it's right inside of his problem area in the first place...which makes things even more difficult for him to figure out.

You also hit the situation where Clinton probably hadn't considered the type of relationship there...which adds even more to it.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Is it cold in here? on 18 Aug 2020, 17:17
This is deep wisdom.

Quote
Would life have been different if you'd chosen someone else? Yes, and undoubtedly it would be better in some ways and worse in others. But that's not the point. It's not about trying to find your "soulmate" (a poisonous notion for which popular media has much to answer). It's about making a choice and a committment. Part of that committment is not spending serious time wondering about the other choices you could have made. The occasional "what if" isn't a problem, but if you find yourself asking it more and more often, you need to start paying attention to the choice you did make, because there's work that needs to be done. Any successful long term relationship needs continuing work and investment, just as a home or a car needs maintenance. It's easy to let it drift until the minor, unnoticed issues suddenly build up to something big, and a ceiling falls down or steam starts coming from the engine. We all have to guard against that tendency.

It reminds me of an aphorism that goes something like "Don't worry about making the right decision. Make the decision right."
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Tova on 18 Aug 2020, 17:18
I also agree that "let me think about it" can't simply be interpreted as a "no," and I am pretty confident that Clinton is not speaking in code. I don't really think that's him.

Even if it is a no, I can see this also as another messed up thing that he's got to figure out how to deal with.

I wouldn't call it a "messed up thing." Otherwise; yes, he would need to figure out how to deal with it. How easy it is for Clinton to deal with will largely come down to how Elliot responds.

Will Elliot continue to attempt to change Clinton's mind, or focus a lot of attention on him? That would make things difficult.

Or will Elliot move on and focus his attention on capturing the affection of someone else? Even if Elliot still finds Clinton attractive, that would make things much easier.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Tova on 18 Aug 2020, 17:23
This is deep wisdom.

Quote
Would life have been different if you'd chosen someone else? Yes, and undoubtedly it would be better in some ways and worse in others. But that's not the point. It's not about trying to find your "soulmate" (a poisonous notion for which popular media has much to answer). It's about making a choice and a committment. Part of that committment is not spending serious time wondering about the other choices you could have made. The occasional "what if" isn't a problem, but if you find yourself asking it more and more often, you need to start paying attention to the choice you did make, because there's work that needs to be done. Any successful long term relationship needs continuing work and investment, just as a home or a car needs maintenance. It's easy to let it drift until the minor, unnoticed issues suddenly build up to something big, and a ceiling falls down or steam starts coming from the engine. We all have to guard against that tendency.

It reminds me of an aphorism that goes something like "Don't worry about making the right decision. Make the decision right."

Agreed. Sorry Claire and Tai, but rom coms have a lot to answer for.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 18 Aug 2020, 18:17
Elliot doesn't strike me as the kind of person who would continue to badger Clinton. If anything, he'll probably back off until Clinton makes up his mind.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Beast_Reborn on 18 Aug 2020, 18:24
Comic's up!

I'm not at all sure about the way Claire is going about this. Is this about Clinton's desires, or hers?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 18 Aug 2020, 18:31
I think she's just trying to help Clinton figure out if he's attracted to Elliot or not, even though none of it is very Elliot-specific.


Also, Claire is pretty good at this. I wonder if she writes erotic fiction on the side? She and Tai could compare notes.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Penquin47 on 18 Aug 2020, 18:33
Claire's going romance novel at Clinton - but Clinton's the one who's overheating, blushing, and about to blow a gasket.  Claire's fine.

Weighing in on the "Let me think about it" issue - to me, that means "no until I've come back to you about it."  I wouldn't push for another answer, but I also wouldn't give up hope, at least not right away.  If they haven't gotten back to me within a week or so, THEN I would assume it's a "no".
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: jwhouk on 18 Aug 2020, 18:38
Comic's up!

I'm not at all sure about the way Claire is going about this. Is this about Clinton's desires, or hers?

whynotboth.gif
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Gnabberwocky on 18 Aug 2020, 18:42
Pintsize has got a point. If Clinton thought of Elliot as a friend, I have a feeling the hugging dynamic would be more comfort than "hhhhhh."

That's a pretty good indicator that Clinton is at least sexually attracted to guys (or some guys, anyway), but we're still mostly blind on the romantic front.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: shanejayell on 18 Aug 2020, 19:01
Clinton.exe has overheated.

Reboot/retry?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Beast_Reborn on 18 Aug 2020, 19:04
Well, I guess Clinton is having a moment of clarity here, so perhaps it's just what he needed. In fact, the fact that this reaction is coming on so easily suggests that his feelings weren't buried as deeply as they seemed, which is a major difference from the protracted Faye/Bubbles arc.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Tyr on 18 Aug 2020, 19:04
whynotboth.gif
In fairness to Clinton's possibly non-existant heterosexuality: Claire's description is extremely appealing to me on a non-sexual level. I am deeply touch-starved due to an fear of so much as touching other people, especially women instilled by years of exhortations that, as an XY individual, I must mind my strength and raw inpulses at all times, constantly wary of the inherent beast within. One of my best friends insists on hugging me on our every parting because he knows this and accepts that aspect of my psychology.


That said, Clinton is doing some deep thinking guided by Claire (and Pintsize?). I hope Elliot, Clinton, Millefuille, and Brunhilde all arrive in a situation that brings the most pleasure to all of them with as few broken hearts as possible.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Gnabberwocky on 18 Aug 2020, 19:38
whynotboth.gif
In fairness to Clinton's possibly non-existant heterosexuality: Claire's description is extremely appealing to me on a non-sexual level. I am deeply touch-starved due to an fear of so much as touching other people, especially women instilled by years of exhortations that, as an XY individual, I must mind my strength and raw inpulses at all times, constantly wary of the inherent beast within. One of my best friends insists on hugging me on our every parting because he knows this and accepts that aspect of my psychology.

Hey, me too! Come on over once quarantine's over and we'll have a nice platonic hug.  :lol:
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: eschaton on 18 Aug 2020, 19:44
whynotboth.gif
In fairness to Clinton's possibly non-existant heterosexuality: Claire's description is extremely appealing to me on a non-sexual level. I am deeply touch-starved due to an fear of so much as touching other people, especially women instilled by years of exhortations that, as an XY individual, I must mind my strength and raw inpulses at all times, constantly wary of the inherent beast within. One of my best friends insists on hugging me on our every parting because he knows this and accepts that aspect of my psychology.


That said, Clinton is doing some deep thinking guided by Claire (and Pintsize?). I hope Elliot, Clinton, Millefuille, and Brunhilde all arrive in a situation that brings the most pleasure to all of them with as few broken hearts as possible.

I can't imagine anyone normal being turned on by any sort of erotic scenario narrated by their sibling.  It's too damn close to incest.  I mean, a family member is telling you an erotic story, and then you like pop a woodie or something? 

I'm also not really sure that this would be the sort of scenario where someone would realistically figure out if they were bisexual.  Presumably Clinton has never fantasized about men before, or he wouldn't feel confused as he said in the first panel.  I can buy that you could like start making out with a dude and realize hey, it's not so bad.  But I don't see how your sister talking dirty to you would be what would cause your sexual awakening. 
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: de_la_Nae on 18 Aug 2020, 19:50



 known heterosexual

sorry friend, but citation needed

there's been a helluva lot of ink spilled on cultural assumptions, so i hate to spill more, but... yeah.


 Presumably Clinton has never fantasized about men before, or he wouldn't feel confused as he said in the first panel.

er.... hey friend, I don't know if you've noticed, but *gestures at men*

that ain't how it works for... gosh, a lot lot lot lot lot of people
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: de_la_Nae on 18 Aug 2020, 19:56
also i'm not sure exactly what it means, though i have some suspicions, that there's so relatively few of you that seem to be actually enjoying this so far

edit: i'm not here all the time for all dating stories, but there's a *marked* difference in how the aggregate you reacts to the different joyful pairings and hopeful pairings, and like... I feel like there's a paper or three in that.

edit again cuz fuckit: elliot's being adorable, clinton's being adorable, they make me squee, what can i say
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Gus_Smedstad on 18 Aug 2020, 20:00
I find myself agreeing with Pintsize. Which is generally not a good thing.

Seriously, the narrative Claire spins doesn't do anything for me, because, y'know, I'm not at all attracted to men, or male sexual attributes like bulging muscles. Clinton's reactions make him out to be pretty gay.

I'm no longer sold on him being bi. Mainly because he didn't overheat that way over Brun or Emily. In fact, he had a conversation with Brun where he expressed uncertainty as to whether he was attracted to her. Which was a conversation I found decidedly weird at the time, since I've never had any doubts about who I found attractive. But then, I was never a gay male attempting to struggle against cultural programming telling me I should be interested in women.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Onionvolcano on 18 Aug 2020, 20:05
No!  Clinton and Brun!
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Beast_Reborn on 18 Aug 2020, 20:30
also i'm not sure exactly what it means, though i have some suspicions, that there's so relatively few of you that seem to be actually enjoying this so far

edit: i'm not here all the time for all dating stories, but there's a *marked* difference in how the aggregate you reacts to the different joyful pairings and hopeful pairings, and like... I feel like there's a paper or three in that.

edit again cuz fuckit: elliot's being adorable, clinton's being adorable, they make me squee, what can i say

I wouldn't mind this being unpacked a bit. The implication seems to be that people here have some kind of problem with gay male relationships, but given what I know of this forum (and I'm a brand new poster, but I've been reading posts for a while), I don't think that's true?

Personally, I'm approaching this storyline a little cautiously because: (1) it might end in disappointment; Jeph is certainly ruthless enough to do that (2) I'm not sure how I feel about it from a storytelling perspective, as I said last week, especially given its similarity to what happened with Faye and Bubbles (3) I'm a gay male who can easily imagine himself falling for Clinton in real life (I don't have muscles like that though), so I'm actually making an effort not to take this storyline too personally, as it were.

I'm no longer sold on him being bi. Mainly because he didn't overheat that way over Brun or Emily. In fact, he had a conversation with Brun where he expressed uncertainty as to whether he was attracted to her. Which was a conversation I found decidedly weird at the time, since I've never had any doubts about who I found attractive. But then, I was never a gay male attempting to struggle against cultural programming telling me I should be interested in women.

I don't think there's any doubt about the genuineness of Clinton's attraction to Brun or Emily. Remember how nervous and flustered he got on his date with Emily, eventually doing a lot of weird (well, out of character) stuff just to impress her. I struggle to make any sense of that in terms of cultural programming - he acted like he was well and truly smitten. As for the conversation with Brun, I don't think he was expressing doubt at all, only nervousness at telling her.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: eschaton on 18 Aug 2020, 20:33

er.... hey friend, I don't know if you've noticed, but *gestures at men*

that ain't how it works for... gosh, a lot lot lot lot lot of people

You need to be more specific here, because I have no idea what you are inferring.

I can understand not realizing you are attracted to one gender until later in life.  I just don't think this kind of scene - funny as it is - would be a realistic eureka moment.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Tova on 18 Aug 2020, 20:39
(1) it might end in disappointment; Jeph is certainly ruthless enough to do that

I'll be honest - as of right now, I am unconvinced that he is. Maybe he was once.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 18 Aug 2020, 20:45
Time does seem to have mellowed Jeph. I feel that _if_ Clinton turns Elliot down, he will do it in the gentlest way possible, although I don't see that happening, given how he reacted to Claire's story. He'd be lucky to have Elliot: all that AND he smells like freshly baked bread!
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: de_la_Nae on 18 Aug 2020, 21:00

You need to be more specific here, because I have no idea what you are inferring.


Right, okay.

i'm not, at this moment, disputing what you say about the scene. but you said, whether you truly notice it or not, more than just what was related to the scene, eschaton. Which is why i specifically quoted out one specific assertion you made, that I am flatly stating is incorrect.

i quote again,
Presumably Clinton has never fantasized about men before, or he wouldn't feel confused as he said in the first panel. 

if you go to the quiet and semi-secret places where men actually discuss their attractions and their fantasies, if you look at what men actually do in their lives, this statement doesn't hold water. for what rather seems to be the majority of men, this is not how it works, despite the propaganda lines too many of them too-often spout when they fear loss of status. The ideas put forth in this statement, that fantasies resolve confusion, are inadequate to explain reality.


I wouldn't mind this being unpacked a bit. The implication seems to be that people here have some kind of problem with gay male relationships, but given what I know of this forum (and I'm a brand new poster, but I've been reading posts for a while), I don't think that's true?


i've been here for far too many years, and seen what feels like too many of these dances. it's not as a simple as it being gay male relationships, though I do in fact think it's part of the mix. it's not as simple as 'problem', or at least not as clean and well-defined. it tastes of something like respectability, but not quite that. something like accepted forms, but not quite that. there is an offness in it that i struggle to explain. i try not to bring it up too often because i do not have the wisdom to state it plainly. if i could stand up these events next to each other, as statues, i am personally convinced the difference would be noticeable, if perhaps not at first glance.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Gyrre on 18 Aug 2020, 21:06
whynotboth.gif
In fairness to Clinton's possibly non-existant heterosexuality: Claire's description is extremely appealing to me on a non-sexual level. I am deeply touch-starved due to an fear of so much as touching other people, especially women instilled by years of exhortations that, as an XY individual, I must mind my strength and raw inpulses at all times, constantly wary of the inherent beast within. One of my best friends insists on hugging me on our every parting because he knows this and accepts that aspect of my psychology.


That said, Clinton is doing some deep thinking guided by Claire (and Pintsize?). I hope Elliot, Clinton, Millefuille, and Brunhilde all arrive in a situation that brings the most pleasure to all of them with as few broken hearts as possible.
Pretty sure that first panel indicates he's bi to some degree.
1, 2, or 3 on the Kinsey scale. Maybe a 4. Probably not a 5 .

EDIT: correcting smartphone touchscreen keyboard mistake
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Tyr on 18 Aug 2020, 23:00
I can't really justify it, but on further reflection the phrasing of panel one has put idea of Clinton being Biromantic and whatever the appropriate term for a greysexual who hasn't quite figured that out about themselves.

Or maybe he's just a polite young man who has yet to have any sort of long-enough term romantic relationship for sex to really be on his radar and he's making an effort to not get ahead of himself with fantasies.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: jesslc on 18 Aug 2020, 23:12
Claire's going romance novel at Clinton - but Clinton's the one who's overheating, blushing, and about to blow a gasket.  Claire's fine.

Weighing in on the "Let me think about it" issue - to me, that means "no until I've come back to you about it."  I wouldn't push for another answer, but I also wouldn't give up hope, at least not right away.  If they haven't gotten back to me within a week or so, THEN I would assume it's a "no".
This is also my opinion. I would say that if someone says "maybe", then it's up to them to get back to you if they conclude that they are interested. If they don't get back to you - then either that "maybe" was actually a "no" all along or it turned into a "no" after they thought about it some more. If their "maybe" turns into a "yes" after they spend some time thinking about it, they will let you know.

And that looks like that'll be the case here :-D :-D :-D
(Proudly waves my Team "Elliot deserves some happiness after Jeph being mean to him for so long" flag)

Also having reread a fair bit of the comic lately, I think Jeph has been leading up to Clinton & Elliot getting together for a very long time. My evidence - not just this moment in 3710 (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3710), but also many of Clinton & Elliot's interactions since that time. It definitely seems to me that Jeph has been trying to show that Clinton cares about Elliot a lot (eg. the way he is always so quick to reassure Elliot when Elliot is putting himself down) and that there's some latent attraction that Clinton is experiencing but hasn't recognized yet (eg. Clinton blushing when Elliot compliments him and when he lifts him up). So this week is going pretty much as I expected - Clinton needing some time to think, him talking it over with someone, then realising he is actually interested...

Next up - Elliot speaking to Renee about how he's super worried that he might have screwed everything up? (This prediction is probably too obvious to be worth making to be honest...)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Gus_Smedstad on 18 Aug 2020, 23:16
Another explanation is that we're putting more thought into it than Jeph has. That he's just gone with whatever he wanted to write in each Clinton storyline, and he hasn't dwelt too much on the backstory.

As for fantasies - well, I was fantasizing about the girl down the street when I was 13. It starts pretty early for guys, I had no doubts at all about my interests by the time I was a 20-something. I have no idea, however, how it is for gay males. I didn't have to deal with any cultural programming telling me that wanting to do stuff with girls was "wrong."

I will say that it was definitely an internal, instinctual thing. Prior to age 13, I knew what the mechanics were, and I knew what the equipment looked like from "playing doctor," but I wasn't really interested. Then a switch flipped and suddenly I was pretty motivated to have sex and think about sex.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: ihaveavoice on 18 Aug 2020, 23:17
As someone who is currently (finally) wrestling with the idea of maybe being greysexual or otherwise ace herself, all that overheating doesn't really fit for me. I can relate very strongly to the sentiment of not really getting how attraction "works," but his response to what Claire's describing...I guess seems very sexual to me? Not sure how to put it.

Tbh, I don't see that much similarity between Clinton and Elliot's situation and the one between Bubbles and Faye. Theirs was a relationship that grew slowly and laboriously: from a seed of wanting to help someone struggling in a familiar dark place, through long term friendship - first shaky, then strong - with a side trip through business partnership before finally arriving at a romantic place. Clinton and Elliot have had some lighthearted interactions as friendly acquaintances, one was immediately or at least quickly aware that he felt attracted to the other, and then the other ended up having to figure out how he feels in response to that. But then...see my above response to Tyr. Maybe the way I'm wired just makes me care that much less about the similar sexuality of the parties involved.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Gus_Smedstad on 18 Aug 2020, 23:18
Or maybe he's just a polite young man who has yet to have any sort of long-enough term romantic relationship for sex to really be on his radar and he's making an effort to not get ahead of himself with fantasies.
That's not how males work. Sex is definitely on your radar long, long before relationships are a possibility or sex is at all likely.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 18 Aug 2020, 23:19
Well, I think we at least have an insight into Claire's view of Marten. I wonder if he knows that she's so enraptured with the physical experience of him?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: ihaveavoice on 18 Aug 2020, 23:27
I don't think you can accurately claim that you know how all males work, Gus. For that matter, I don't think it's right to act like female and non-binary people wouldn't have had your experience of fantasizing early and often and having a "switch flip" and suddenly feeling really motivated to have/think about sex. I've had plenty of girls/women talk to me about this kind of thing over the years, while I waited and waited to find out what it was like.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: de_la_Nae on 18 Aug 2020, 23:36

I will say that it was definitely an internal, instinctual thing.

Prior to age 13, I knew what the mechanics were, and I knew what the equipment looked like from "playing doctor," but I wasn't really interested.

Then a switch flipped and suddenly I was pretty motivated to have sex and think about sex.

I wonder who taught you how to "play doctor".

I do not choose to dispute your accounting of how things seemed to switch on for you, but I cannot help but notice in that account, as it stands written here, a rather large hole for a, how to put it.... "priming the pump", sort of thing, that teaches you What To Do when that switch flips. One big enough to go beyond instinct alone.

I mean perhaps that's not the case with you. While I have scant evidence that such... 'purity' of attraction exists in even common measures in the species, the world is wide and I do not know all things in it. I am more interested in highlighting pernicious assumed variables that get in the way of such discussions as y'all are having.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: oddtail on 19 Aug 2020, 01:04
As for fantasies - well, I was fantasizing about the girl down the street when I was 13. It starts pretty early for guys, (...)

I don't mean to sound snarky, but how many guys did you talk to about their fantasies? Because in my experience, pubescent/teenage boys don't exactly discuss their sexual feelings freely, and when they do, they do it in a crude and, in a way, extremely guarded manner. Maybe that's different outside of 90s Poland, but based on what I've read over the years, that doesn't seem to be the case.

My point is, what you write implies is started pretty early for *you*. And you seem to extend this to "guys", and I can't help but wonder how many conversations you've had with other men to confirm that. Because otherwise, you're extrapolating from your own experience, and that's dangerous. Especially since (in my experience) men are conditioned to fit in, in terms of sexuality, so even when the topic *is* for some reason breached, there's a good chance a man will conform with (what he thinks is) the norm. And that skews the perception of what "typically" happens. A lot.

And in fact, the conversations I had with my peers in Junior High or whatever seems to confirm that. Conversations around sex were very awkward, very guarded and very focused on showing off what we felt would prove we were knowledgeable about stuff (not exactly very conducive to genuine sharing of experiences). Not to mention exraordinarily sexist, but that's another conversation.

Or to put it another way: going from "that's how it happened to me" to "that's how it typically happens" is a very big jump. And even then, the jump from "that's how it typically happens" to "that's universally true" is an even bigger one, especially when there's a cultural incentive for men to stay quiet if their own experience doesn't fit the mold.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: oddtail on 19 Aug 2020, 01:07
Or maybe he's just a polite young man who has yet to have any sort of long-enough term romantic relationship for sex to really be on his radar and he's making an effort to not get ahead of himself with fantasies.
That's not how males work. Sex is definitely on your radar long, long before relationships are a possibility or sex is at all likely.

See my post immediately above, but I'm gonna repeat - how do you know that? Do you have an insight into what is fundamental and immutable about the male mind?

I was interested in girls (in fact, a specific girl) in a... let's say, proto-romantic way when we were both about 5. I didn't even know sex existed at the time, not even in crudest, simplest terms. I most certainly didn't have anything resembling a sexual attraction to her. We interacted in a way that mimicked a more adult romantic relationship, for years. I'm not saying that's typical, but I have no reason to believe I was a unique, special unicorn, either.

(and that wasn't just a fluke. Around puberty, I was interested in girls multiple times. I'm sure there was a sexual dimension to it, but I never explicitly thought of the girls in a sexual way. I knew I liked them, I knew I wanted to spend time with them, and as I got older, I considered the possibility of asking them to be my girlfriends. Interest in sex specifically is something that developed around this time for me, yes, but it was very gradual and certainly didn't *predate* my romantic feelings.)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Tova on 19 Aug 2020, 01:20
Just to provide the anecdotal counter-example, I developed romantic crushes on girls well before sex was on the radar.

It's easy to assume that males develop an interest in sex early because of the omnipresent "all guys think about is sex" narrative that conflates pursuing female attention with a sexual drive.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: oddtail on 19 Aug 2020, 01:24
Just to provide the anecdotal counter-example, I developed romantic crushes on girls well before sex was on the radar.

It's easy to assume that males develop an interest in sex early because of the omnipresent "all guys think about is sex" narrative that conflates pursuing female attention with a sexual drive.

Heck, the narrative is "all guys think about is sex WITH WOMEN". You'll find plenty of stories online of particularly bi, but sometimes even gay guys who say it should've been obvious in retrospect, but who had a facepalm moment about being attracted to guys followed immediately by a  "oh, THAT is what it is" moment of realisation/relief. Only because the general set of expectations doesn't really put that possibility in people's mind.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Thrillho on 19 Aug 2020, 01:50
How many of the people who don't buy this writing of Clinton are males who are sexually active or interested in sex with men and others too?

Because it feels painfully obvious the lack of quietness in some of these posts.

My interactions with and about different genders are completely different, and the attractions are too. Or more accurately, work differently person to person but also broadly differently between genders.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: snubnose on 19 Aug 2020, 02:39
My first crush on a girl was with five and my second was with ten, in both cases long before puberty and a sex drive, and thus I also had no sexual fantasies.

During puberty, I didnt have many sexual fantasies on ladies either, except very strong ones on the one I had a crush on.

If nobody would ever have told me that homosexuality exists, I'm pretty sure I would still have no clue it existed.


[...] Clinton's reactions make him out to be pretty gay. [...]
Wait, thats supposed to be a POSITIVE reaction ???????? Woa, I totally though the opposite.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: pwhodges on 19 Aug 2020, 03:12
[...] Clinton's reactions make him out to be pretty gay. [...]
Wait, thats supposed to be a POSITIVE reaction ???????? Woa, I totally though the opposite.

The positive is figuring out what your feelings are, regardless of which way they lean.  The common conventional view that men generally think about sex first is, as has been said, not universal, and in any case doesn't prevent the possibility of feeling attraction to a person rather than their gender.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: eschaton on 19 Aug 2020, 04:25
if you go to the quiet and semi-secret places where men actually discuss their attractions and their fantasies, if you look at what men actually do in their lives, this statement doesn't hold water. for what rather seems to be the majority of men, this is not how it works, despite the propaganda lines too many of them too-often spout when they fear loss of status. The ideas put forth in this statement, that fantasies resolve confusion, are inadequate to explain reality.

I mean, I get what you're saying here.  My comment about fantasy was a bit off base, because what people have an erotic fantasy about and what people are attracted to in real life are different.

However his "not even sure how to tell if you are attracted to a guy" thing in the first panel does not sound like something a guy who has ever questioned his sexuality would say.

I mean, I'm straight, more or less.  I'm 41, married, never had any sort of sexual activity with a guy.  But when I was younger I'd very occasionally see guys I was attracted to (like maybe once a year).  Usually it was very "fem" guys who I saw from a long distance away, and started checking out thinking they were women, and then realized my mistake.  Since it was a different, much more homophobic time, it made me feel all weird and confused at the time.  But by the time I reached Clinton's age I realized that for every 1 guy that happened with, there were like 100+ women I checked out on the street.  Furthermore, it was hard enough for me as a socially awkward geeky guy to get the interest of women (I didn't seriously date anyone till I was 23).  The chances of ever being in a situation to do something with a guy I actually was attracted to were thus close to nil, so I was comfortable with saying I'm straight, for all intents and purposes. 

I think everyone around my age who is a straight guy had something like this in their back history.  Lots of my male friends growing had some sort of homoerotic young adolescent experience (like a mutual j/o session) but they seemed to be blase about it when thinking back at 18 or 22.  A couple like made out with dudes on a dare or something similar.  There were tons of homoerotic jokes  and the like.  Looking back, the ones who didn't  talk about or participate in this stuff were the ones who actually ended up gay...probably because they were afraid of being outed. 

Anyway, maybe it's different now with younger dudes, since society is not as homophobic, and passing same-sex attraction or activity in adolescence doesn't lead to years of navel gazing until you "figure out" your sexual identity.  But Jeph is around my age, and it's never entirely clear when QC is supposed to be set.

As an aside, I have been holding out hope that Clinton, Elliot, and Brun would form a stable triad.   if it's just Clinton/Elliot and then something happens between Brun and the robot lady Millie, it will be up to three lesbian relationships, one gay male relationship, one arguably queer relationship (Martin and Claire - trans people are queer even in a heterosexual relationship correct?), and then Dale/Marigold who we seldom see any longer.  We need some poly representation. 
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Case on 19 Aug 2020, 04:31
Or maybe he's just a polite young man who has yet to have any sort of long-enough term romantic relationship for sex to really be on his radar and he's making an effort to not get ahead of himself with fantasies.
That's not how males work. Sex is definitely on your radar long, long before relationships are a possibility or sex is at all likely.

Next time you feel the urge to assert simple 'truths' about the inner experiences of half the species?

Don't.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: jesslc on 19 Aug 2020, 05:03
I can't really justify it, but on further reflection the phrasing of panel one has put idea of Clinton being Biromantic and whatever the appropriate term for a greysexual who hasn't quite figured that out about themselves.
I'd love to see Jeph go down the path of having a character whose romantic orientation and sexual orientation don't fully match up. And exploring how that affects dating & relationships for them etc... For example pan/bi-romantic and heterosexual (or homosexual or asexual). Or another combination. It could work well with a polyamory storyline too.

From a meta perspective - given that this is something we haven't seen in the comic yet and that Jeph is very big on inclusion - I think there's a decent chance that this is where this is leading. *Gets out my probably-panromantic-and-grey-heterosexual flag to wave vigorously*

(And hopefully it would still lead for happiness for Elliot  #TeamElliot)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 19 Aug 2020, 05:18
Jeph does seem to like this whole 'the one exception' trope in his romantic writing. We've seen it literally almost every time that a major cast member gets into a long-term relationship since the Dorapocalypse. These examples come to mind:
My point? I think that Jeph's view is that your one true partner is quite frequently the last person you'd expect and actually quite different from your 'type'. Although, arguably, Marten/Claire diverges from that last part as Claire is, in personality terms, quite similar to Faye, Dora and Padma (assertive, strong-willed but with strong insecurities). In any case, this viewpoint is clearly being reflected in a lot of his characters' most serious romantic relationships: It is the interpersonal match between those two individuals that matters, not any pre-existing labels about romantic and sexual attraction.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 19 Aug 2020, 05:31
Jeph does seem to like this whole 'the one exception' trope in his romantic writing. We've seen it literally almost every time that a major cast member gets into a long-term relationship since the Dorapocalypse. These examples come to mind:
  • Marten is basically hetero and very, very mildly bicurious yet he has fallen head-over-heels with Claire without even a blink of hesitation other than a concern about professional ethics; indeed his reaction to her was 'You're beautiful';
  • Faye has never shown the slightest bisexual interest before meeting Bubbles (who, let's not be squeamish about it, isn't even her species);
  • May and Sven are clearly in a mutual orbit despite the fact neither of them have shown the slightest interest in anything beyond sex before;
  • Now Clinton, who has never shown even the slightest bi tendencies, is clearly very, very attracted to Elliot on a physical level as well as clearly having a strong emotional rapport.
My point? I think that Jeph's view is that your one true partner is quite frequently the last person you'd expect and actually quite different from your 'type'. Although, arguably, Marten/Claire diverges from that last part as Claire is, in personality terms, quite similar to Faye, Dora and Padma (assertive, strong-willed but with strong insecurities). In any case, this viewpoint is clearly being reflected in a lot of his characters' most serious romantic relationships: It is the interpersonal match between those two individuals that matters, not any pre-existing labels about romantic and sexual attraction.

Not much to debate there.

I think (my) concern (problem is too strong a word) is that these "exceptions" are all occurring within a very small group of people.
Like... "Hmmm... which two characters can I use to squeeze into a relationship/situation which might be deemed something other than what wider society views as "normal", today...?"

And unfortunately, using these things in such a way as Ben describes above -  makes them almost smack of tokenism...
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: eschaton on 19 Aug 2020, 05:48
Jeph does seem to like this whole 'the one exception' trope in his romantic writing. We've seen it literally almost every time that a major cast member gets into a long-term relationship since the Dorapocalypse. These examples come to mind:
  • Marten is basically hetero and very, very mildly bicurious yet he has fallen head-over-heels with Claire without even a blink of hesitation other than a concern about professional ethics; indeed his reaction to her was 'You're beautiful';
  • Faye has never shown the slightest bisexual interest before meeting Bubbles (who, let's not be squeamish about it, isn't even her species);
  • May and Sven are clearly in a mutual orbit despite the fact neither of them have shown the slightest interest in anything beyond sex before;
  • Now Clinton, who has never shown even the slightest bi tendencies, is clearly very, very attracted to Elliot on a physical level as well as clearly having a strong emotional rapport.
My point? I think that Jeph's view is that your one true partner is quite frequently the last person you'd expect and actually quite different from your 'type'. Although, arguably, Marten/Claire diverges from that last part as Claire is, in personality terms, quite similar to Faye, Dora and Padma (assertive, strong-willed but with strong insecurities). In any case, this viewpoint is clearly being reflected in a lot of his characters' most serious romantic relationships: It is the interpersonal match between those two individuals that matters, not any pre-existing labels about romantic and sexual attraction.

Not much to debate there.

I think (my) concern (problem is too strong a word) is that these "exceptions" are all occurring within a very small group of people.
Like... "Hmmm... which two characters can I use to squeeze into a relationship/situation which might be deemed something other than what wider society views as "normal", today...?"

And unfortunately, using these things in such a way as Ben describes above -  makes them almost smack of tokenism...

In fairness however, if most of your social circle is LGBT, and you are not, you're probably much more liable to be open to the possibilities than if everyone you know is cis/hetero and repressed as all hell. 
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: ihaveavoice on 19 Aug 2020, 06:19
Quick note that being attracted to Claire does nothing to alter Marten's sexuality. He's no less hetero for falling for a trans woman.

And the word tokenism gets thrown around quite a bit when it comes to representation, but what it actually means is doing no more than the bare minimum to look like you're including representation of some group - making only a token effort to show some diversity - and then patting yourself on the back for your inclusivity. Jeph has been writing a continuous narrative with fleshed out characters that happen to often be LGBT. In no way is he engaging in tokenism by showing us the inner worlds and slow burn romantic entanglements of these imaginary people.

I would also like to point out that a) a webcomic has no obligation to stick to some real world estimate of the average percentage of gay or bi people in the general population when it comes to the makeup of its cast - QC could have literally no straight characters if that's what its writer wanted to do, and nothing would be off or (lol) questionable about that; and b) as others have pointed out, it isn't even unrealistic in real life for a certain friend group and related circles to be majority LGBT, especially when their crowd is notably accepting and inclusive in other ways. It isn't even a universal reader experience to feel that the amount of LGBT representation in the comic is somehow odd, or even a universal straight-reader-with-mostly-straight-friends experience to feel that way. I speak as one of the latter who would legit never have thought of it if I hadn't checked out these forums and seen it keep coming up.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: JoeCovenant on 19 Aug 2020, 06:34
Jeph does seem to like this whole 'the one exception' trope in his romantic writing. We've seen it literally almost every time that a major cast member gets into a long-term relationship since the Dorapocalypse. These examples come to mind:
  • Marten is basically hetero and very, very mildly bicurious yet he has fallen head-over-heels with Claire without even a blink of hesitation other than a concern about professional ethics; indeed his reaction to her was 'You're beautiful';
  • Faye has never shown the slightest bisexual interest before meeting Bubbles (who, let's not be squeamish about it, isn't even her species);
  • May and Sven are clearly in a mutual orbit despite the fact neither of them have shown the slightest interest in anything beyond sex before;
  • Now Clinton, who has never shown even the slightest bi tendencies, is clearly very, very attracted to Elliot on a physical level as well as clearly having a strong emotional rapport.
My point? I think that Jeph's view is that your one true partner is quite frequently the last person you'd expect and actually quite different from your 'type'. Although, arguably, Marten/Claire diverges from that last part as Claire is, in personality terms, quite similar to Faye, Dora and Padma (assertive, strong-willed but with strong insecurities). In any case, this viewpoint is clearly being reflected in a lot of his characters' most serious romantic relationships: It is the interpersonal match between those two individuals that matters, not any pre-existing labels about romantic and sexual attraction.

Not much to debate there.

I think (my) concern (problem is too strong a word) is that these "exceptions" are all occurring within a very small group of people.
Like... "Hmmm... which two characters can I use to squeeze into a relationship/situation which might be deemed something other than what wider society views as "normal", today...?"

And unfortunately, using these things in such a way as Ben describes above -  makes them almost smack of tokenism...

In fairness however, if most of your social circle is LGBT, and you are not, you're probably much more liable to be open to the possibilities than if everyone you know is cis/hetero and repressed as all hell.

Oh, I totally get that... (like, totally... it's why I find it a bit jarring all these things are happening in so small a community of main characters).

The 'concern' is that these tings all seem to be coming out of the main cast who, up until the point it occurs, have shown little/no inkling of any LGBT(AI) tendencies.

I lived most of my youth/early adult life surrounded by gay men and women (Actors, dahling, dontcha know?)  :)  ) and yes, was approached by quite a few guys - I found it flattering, but it was nothing I would be remotely interested in. I loved these guys, but had no interest in them sexually.  I guess MY experience of the scene is that there was little to no ambiguity to if people were gay, straight or bi... but then, I can't say I ever saw anyone 'suddenly realise' their orientation either.

Different strokes, I guess. (No pun intended!)  :)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: eschaton on 19 Aug 2020, 07:31
Quick note that being attracted to Claire does nothing to alter Marten's sexuality. He's no less hetero for falling for a trans woman.

Again, I'm not up on my modern terminology, but my understanding is that trans people are by definition under the queer umbrella.  Thus Martin/Claire is a queer relationship even though Martin himself might not be queer.

Regardless, sexuality - much like gender identity - is a matter of self-identification.  I don't think we can definitively say he self-identifies as being hetero because he's never said anything on the matter whatsoever.  He gets to choose his own labels - we do not. 

I do find the long-term drift of the comic to be more and more LGBT-focused to be interesting though.  It started as a pretty damn straight/cis cast, other than Dora's bisexuality, which was at first merely theoretical and joked about.  Oh, and I suppose Pintsize had that "gay relationship" near the beginning of the comic which was never remarked upon again (weird how he's only a letch to human females). 
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: oddtail on 19 Aug 2020, 07:34
Quick note that being attracted to Claire does nothing to alter Marten's sexuality. He's no less hetero for falling for a trans woman.

Again, I'm not up on my modern terminology, but my understanding is that trans people are by definition under the queer umbrella.  Thus Martin/Claire is a queer relationship even though Martin himself might not be queer.

That depends. Does a relationship between, say, a bi guy and a bi girl count as "queer" just based on them being bi?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 19 Aug 2020, 07:36
... he's making an effort to not get ahead of himself with fantasies.

Do people really do this? My fantasies get way ahead of me. That's what they're FOR.

I want to see Clinton go to the Horrible Revelation for a thoughtful beer and get some relationship advice from Jimbo.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Kairi on 19 Aug 2020, 07:49
:) :) :)

look at all these different perspectives. As a longtime lurker that's definitely been one of the benefits of reading both this comic and this forum. It's expanded my worldview and shown me so, so many perspectives and experiences! The conclusion of which has generally been--just because it's something I haven't experienced before doesn't mean it doesn't exist <3

Everyone is gonna project onto the comic because that's how reading works, and when that projection doesn't quite fit, it makes sense peeps would feel some dissonance. Recognizing that and distancing a bit can alleviate some of that dissonance.

I adore this storyline and admit part of it is that my own projection is fitting in well atm lol. I also just love the growth we've seen in Clinton. Longform stories like this you can really get attached to characters <3 <3 <3 (It's been hitting me hard lately JUST HOW LONG I've been reading this comic daily. That's a big chunk of life!!!)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Mr_Rose on 19 Aug 2020, 07:51
... he's making an effort to not get ahead of himself with fantasies.

Do people really do this? My fantasies get way ahead of me. That's what they're FOR.

I want to see Clinton go to the Horrible Revelation for a thoughtful beer and get some relationship advice from Jimbo.

Then completely ignore it as is right & proper because Jimbo.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 19 Aug 2020, 08:09
Suggested poll topic:

Who should Clinton go to for relationship advice?

(He seems to have ended up at Claire's by automatic pilot.)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: stayctee on 19 Aug 2020, 08:34
I am in a happy, settled same-sex relationship. She is my second girlfriend. I'm 41. I didn't "find" my sexuality at a later age, I found the confidence to finally explore it after years of mental illness (PTSD, etc. etc. etc.) stood in the way of that. Everyone has a different story.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: AfternoonGlory on 19 Aug 2020, 08:38
:) :) :)

look at all these different perspectives. As a longtime lurker that's definitely been one of the benefits of reading both this comic and this forum. It's expanded my worldview and shown me so, so many perspectives and experiences! The conclusion of which has generally been--just because it's something I haven't experienced before doesn't mean it doesn't exist <3


Seconded. I used to be so ignorant of some issues, and naïve in other areas, since I'm still pretty young. This comic and forum have given me an interesting perspective on how the world is, and how different people live their life. It's so interesting!
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Cornelius on 19 Aug 2020, 08:41
Quick note that being attracted to Claire does nothing to alter Marten's sexuality. He's no less hetero for falling for a trans woman.

Again, I'm not up on my modern terminology, but my understanding is that trans people are by definition under the queer umbrella.  Thus Martin/Claire is a queer relationship even though Martin himself might not be queer.

That depends. Does a relationship between, say, a bi guy and a bi girl count as "queer" just based on them being bi?

In my experience, some lgt folk are pretty vocal, not to say acerbic, about it not counting.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Thrillho on 19 Aug 2020, 10:59
They have every right to their opinion. They have no right to be an asshole about it.

Please do not take their behaviour as representative of how inclusive queer folk are generally.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Theta9 on 19 Aug 2020, 11:58
Again, I'm not up on my modern terminology, but my understanding is that trans people are by definition under the queer umbrella.  Thus Martin/Claire is a queer relationship even though Martin himself might not be queer.

That depends. Does a relationship between, say, a bi guy and a bi girl count as "queer" just based on them being bi?
My take as a cis and het man:

The relationship between the two is technically het even though both participants are queer (the "B" in "LGBT.")

Marten is still het because Claire is a woman, though her being a trans woman (the "T" in "LGBT") makes the relationship technically queer (but also het "from a certain point of view" as Obi-Wan Kenobi famously said.) And what she has below the belt line is irrelevant ("and irrelevants are only in Africa," as Lord Jason was fond of saying.)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Gnabberwocky on 19 Aug 2020, 12:47
I can't really justify it, but on further reflection the phrasing of panel one has put idea of Clinton being Biromantic and whatever the appropriate term for a greysexual who hasn't quite figured that out about themselves.
I'd love to see Jeph go down the path of having a character whose romantic orientation and sexual orientation don't fully match up. And exploring how that affects dating & relationships for them etc... For example pan/bi-romantic and heterosexual (or homosexual or asexual). Or another combination. It could work well with a polyamory storyline too.

From a meta perspective - given that this is something we haven't seen in the comic yet and that Jeph is very big on inclusion - I think there's a decent chance that this is where this is leading. *Gets out my probably-panromantic-and-grey-heterosexual flag to wave vigorously*

(And hopefully it would still lead for happiness for Elliot  #TeamElliot)

*retrieves laptop from meat grinder*

A panromantic heterosexual character (or similar) would honestly make my day.

Also, I'm with everyone on the lack of poly relationships, but for whatever reason, I think I had my heart too set on Brun/Mille and Clinton/Elliot to root for Clinton/Elliot/Brun.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Mordhaus on 19 Aug 2020, 13:52
Can we just skip to the relationship we ALL really care about? Anthropomorphic French bread and Roko!
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: marbledmurrelet on 19 Aug 2020, 14:10
Sigh... How about, relationships don't have orientations or gender identities so they can't be queer or straight?  :?
Also, people somehow seem to assume that Clinton being involved with both Elliot and Brun would rule out Brun being involved with Millefeuille?

Edit to add more comments that are going to be ignored:
- In my understanding of Clinton's previous conversation with Elliot, he didn't feel the need to categorise his orientation. He wasn't aware of being attracted to men, but he was open to the possibility.
- In my social circle, I've had someone come out as straight... (That's completely fine, of course, we are open-minded and everything)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Penquin47 on 19 Aug 2020, 14:28
That depends. Does a relationship between, say, a bi guy and a bi girl count as "queer" just based on them being bi?

Yes, it does.  Both people involved are queer, and that doesn't go away just because their relationship happens to be the one man one woman model.  They still have to navigate biphobia and heteronormative assumptions that may not apply to them.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 19 Aug 2020, 14:40
:) :) :)

look at all these different perspectives. As a longtime lurker that's definitely been one of the benefits of reading both this comic and this forum. It's expanded my worldview and shown me so, so many perspectives and experiences! The conclusion of which has generally been--just because it's something I haven't experienced before doesn't mean it doesn't exist <3


Agreed, the comic and this forum has proved to be invaluable to me with regards to expanding my worldview.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: brew on 19 Aug 2020, 14:40

I can't imagine anyone normal being turned on by any sort of erotic scenario narrated by their sibling.  It's too damn close to incest.  I mean, a family member is telling you an erotic story, and then you like pop a woodie or something?

Yeah, I'm surprised nobody else is touching on this part.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Kairi on 19 Aug 2020, 14:47

I can't imagine anyone normal being turned on by any sort of erotic scenario narrated by their sibling.  It's too damn close to incest.  I mean, a family member is telling you an erotic story, and then you like pop a woodie or something?

Yeah, I'm surprised nobody else is touching on this part.

we'll see what she says in the next page but the current page.... isn't even erotic lol (as noted by Pintsize). She's describing a hug. A topless hug sure but eh. I'd be comfortable talking to a best friend about that sort of thing, and that best friend relationship isn't sexual.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: marbledmurrelet on 19 Aug 2020, 14:50
I can't imagine anyone normal being turned on by any sort of erotic scenario narrated by their sibling.  It's too damn close to incest.  I mean, a family member is telling you an erotic story, and then you like pop a woodie or something?
Yeah, I'm surprised nobody else is touching on this part.
I thought it was a bit weird, but so are those two... She advised him to visualise a situation with someone (literally) unrelated, and got carried away in supporting the visualising because Claire. Clinton's reaction could be more embarrassed than "popping a woodie"? Though I do think it looks like he likes the idea...
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Gnabberwocky on 19 Aug 2020, 15:19
Sigh... How about, relationships don't have orientations or gender identities so they can't be queer or straight?  :?
Also, people somehow seem to assume that Clinton being involved with both Elliot and Brun would rule out Brun being involved with Millefeuille?

Edit to add more comments that are going to be ignored:
- In my understanding of Clinton's previous conversation with Elliot, he didn't feel the need to categorise his orientation. He wasn't aware of being attracted to men, but he was open to the possibility.
- In my social circle, I've had someone come out as straight... (That's completely fine, of course, we are open-minded and everything)

Those are all very good points.

I'm sorry if I'm being ignorant about the poly relationship stuff. Any talk I've received about sexual orientation and relationships has completely skipped over that as an option; in fact, prior to Marten meeting Tai (which I first read ~4 months ago), I really didn't know they truly existed at all. Please tell me if I say anything else rude or offensive or just plain forgetful on that front.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Mehre on 19 Aug 2020, 15:30
My two cents, here. Actually i seem to remember Clint saying that he is a lot more open to stuff, cause his sister. So maybe its not that much OOC? And another thing is that when Claire says stuff like that with a romantic (couldnt find a better word) tone and he reacts, does it neccessary mean he thinks of Elliot like that? Maybe it is just about delivery and he was looking for a relationship for a while, so...

That being said, his reaction came to me like a little bit out of nowhere... But then maybe he did not even thought about it before much. Anyway, the did-not-have-serious-relationship-maybe-he-is-gay is a little bit played out cliche. I am curious how it will play out and honestly, it seems more stable relationship than with brun. :D

Eh, did not post here, for a long time. Hard times i guess.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Wombat on 19 Aug 2020, 15:32
If one views Marten and Claire's relationship as queer because one is queer, consider how you viewed Marten and Dora's relationship where, again, one was queer.

As for the comic, I hope things go the polyam route because I've enjoyed various character interactions that might be expanded upon, but right now I'm just really rooting for the Clinton/Elliot element to happen because this is...very cute.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Elder Sign on 19 Aug 2020, 15:37
I can't imagine anyone normal being turned on by any sort of erotic scenario narrated by their sibling.  It's too damn close to incest.  I mean, a family member is telling you an erotic story, and then you like pop a woodie or something?
Yeah, I'm surprised nobody else is touching on this part.
I thought it was a bit weird, but so are those two... She advised him to visualise a situation with someone (literally) unrelated, and got carried away in supporting the visualising because Claire. Clinton's reaction could be more embarrassed than "popping a woodie"? Though I do think it looks like he likes the idea...

To be fair, although it's obviously anecdotal, I for one would get all kinds of embarrassed and flustered with someone so aggressively pursuing an explicitly detailed line of questioning like this, even if -- as Pintsize pointed out -- it hadn't yet extended to the idea of outright sexual acts.

But then again, I'm a lifelong introvert who wouldn't willingly go volunteering my explicit thoughts on sex without a substantially good reason to do so and a strong likelihood of the person on the other side being accepting and non-judgmental.  Some people are a lot more comfortable with casual sexual talk, and all the best to them.

As for the comic, I hope things go the polyam route because I've enjoyed various character interactions that might be expanded upon, but right now I'm just really rooting for the Clinton/Elliot element to happen because this is...very cute.

As a tangent, it comes to mind that I seriously don't think that the comic has yet depicted an AI-to-AI romantic relationship -- but then again, there was that one strip of Winslow being stunned speechless over Roko, of which absolutely nothing has resulted since.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Kairi on 19 Aug 2020, 15:44
Alright because a few posts have alluded to this but not said it specifically, imma explain: if you're on the asexual spectrum, you might not think about relationships/sex much. You don't have to be fully asexual to be on that spectrum! When I figured out I was demisexual (can develop sexual attraction, but not immediately/easily, though it differs for different people) it explained SO MUCH in my life. Most of my "crushes" early in life were basially intense feelings of "I would really like to be friends with that person." Sexuality just... didn't enter into it much. I experienced/lived this as heterosexuality though because that's what society told me these feelings meant. Once I figured out my level of sexual attraction was just different from others, and had a few specific, ah, realizations, I did discover very late in life (comparatively) that I'm bisexual. The possibility is definitely, definitely there lol.

tl;dr: people realizing their sexuality later in life is a thing

oh, and Clinton saying "I don't know how that works" relating to whether guys are hot? SO RELATABLE. I had to develop a vocabulary of what "hot" meant, so I could talk to people and know what they meant when they said someone was "hot." But I didn't... feel it, myself. So, having learned the vocabulary for one kind of attraction and not another totes makes sense to me!!
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Case on 19 Aug 2020, 15:49
Sigh... How about, relationships don't have orientations or gender identities so they can't be queer or straight?  :?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WARNING! PROTOCOL BREACH! WARNING! PROTOCOL BREACH! WARNNG!

A forum member has employed logic and common sense in the WCDT!

DEPLOY THE DRONES! RELEASE THE BATTLE-PANDAS!

This is NOT a drill!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: AfternoonGlory on 19 Aug 2020, 16:02
Quote

As a tangent, it comes to mind that I seriously don't think that the comic has yet depicted an AI-to-AI romantic relationship -- but then again, there was that one strip of Winslow being stunned speechless over Roko, of which absolutely nothing has resulted since.

There was Seven and the previously-just-an-arm AI whose name I can't remember for the life of me, and my archive-fu is not very good.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 19 Aug 2020, 16:09
That would be Jeremy (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3434)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Elder Sign on 19 Aug 2020, 16:25
Quote
As a tangent, it comes to mind that I seriously don't think that the comic has yet depicted an AI-to-AI romantic relationship -- but then again, there was that one strip of Winslow being stunned speechless over Roko, of which absolutely nothing has resulted since.

There was Seven and the previously-just-an-arm AI whose name I can't remember for the life of me, and my archive-fu is not very good.
That would be Jeremy (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3434)

Sure, but they were one-off characters and that was it.  Certainly nothing has happened with recurring AI characters, it's all been human-with-human or human-with-AI relationships so far.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: AfternoonGlory on 19 Aug 2020, 16:27
Fair enough.

Also thanks for the reminder
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Beast_Reborn on 19 Aug 2020, 16:40
Sigh... How about, relationships don't have orientations or gender identities so they can't be queer or straight?  :?

My prescriptivist heart sympathizes with you, but any strategy that involves telling people not to use metonymy is guaranteed to lose. Also, this rule would sit oddly alongside other words that can be used of both people and relationships: sexual, romantic, monogamous or polyamorous, etc. In particular, it would be odd to have heterosexual and homosexual relationships, but not straight and gay ones.

On fantasy and awareness of one's attractions: never underestimate the depths and heights of self-deception that are attainable to a sufficiently motivated brain. I managed to go my entire adolescence without allowing my attraction to men to enter my conscious mind, despite regularly having fantasies about them that a neutral observer who could read my thoughts (there's a scary thought) would classify as clearly sexual. This isn't just possible, but typical (i.e. one of a few frequently recurring scenarios) among queer young people who are either in an unaccepting environment or for whatever reason have trouble accepting themselves.

While I don't know this, I can imagine that being bi rather than gay could make it even easier to do this and for a longer time. In Clinton's case, he might have been in a non-accepting environment for some of his formative years (cf. his asshole father about whom we have very little concrete information so far). If so, this would also probably have affected Claire in ways that the comic hasn't explored. However, it's not necessary to assume that's what happened. He might simply have ignored by default any attraction to men he had as long as circumstances didn't force it to his notice. When we first met him, he displayed a comical lack of self-awareness, which apparently he's still working through, though he's made a lot of progress.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: SpanielBear on 19 Aug 2020, 16:58
Sigh... How about, relationships don't have orientations or gender identities so they can't be queer or straight?  :?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WARNING! PROTOCOL BREACH! WARNING! PROTOCOL BREACH! WARNNG!

A forum member has employed logic and common sense in the WCDT!

DEPLOY THE DRONES! RELEASE THE BATTLE-PANDAS!

This is NOT a drill!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Man, the battle Pandas, are you sure!? Might be an escalation too far. I mean, I’ve seen some stone-cold badasses in my time, but those pandas... they don’t give a f*ck!!
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 19 Aug 2020, 18:13
New comic!

Clinton is adorable, and Claire gives pretty good advice.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Potato Farmer on 19 Aug 2020, 18:13
Ah yes. A practical concern.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Zebediah on 19 Aug 2020, 18:30
Sigh... How about, relationships don't have orientations or gender identities so they can't be queer or straight?  :?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WARNING! PROTOCOL BREACH! WARNING! PROTOCOL BREACH! WARNNG!

A forum member has employed logic and common sense in the WCDT!

DEPLOY THE DRONES! RELEASE THE BATTLE-PANDAS!

This is NOT a drill!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Man, the battle Pandas, are you sure!? Might be an escalation too far. I mean, I’ve seen some stone-cold badasses in my time, but those pandas... they don’t give a f*ck!!

Oh, battle pandas are far from the worst we could do. If things really go pear-shaped, we can release the invisible emus.

 :laugh:
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: AfternoonGlory on 19 Aug 2020, 18:32
That was an adorable exchange. Also I've been giggling nonstop at this week's strips, maybe because I can relate to Clinton a lot.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Gnabberwocky on 19 Aug 2020, 18:36
That was an adorable exchange. Also I've been giggling nonstop at this week's strips, maybe because I can relate to Clinton a lot.

Me too, honestly; I kinda hated him up until that first date with Emily, but he's only improved since then.

Also, tomorrow's his Friday comic, right? Maybe we'll finally get a resolution this time.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: shanejayell on 19 Aug 2020, 18:46
Clinton: "So how long does 'personal growth and acceptance' TAKE? I'm on a schedule."

Claire: "......"

Clinton: "What?"
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: snufflebottoms on 19 Aug 2020, 19:08
Clinton: "So how long does 'personal growth and acceptance' TAKE? I'm on a schedule."

Claire: "......"

Clinton: "What?"

Honestly as funny as that exchange was it's actually a reasonable question. Her advice is great but he still needs to handle the current situation in an amount of time shorter than a full journey of self acceptance. Either it will be a "let's see where this goes/take it slow" or a "I'm not ready for this right now."
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: marbledmurrelet on 19 Aug 2020, 19:18
I'm sorry if I'm being ignorant about the poly relationship stuff. Any talk I've received about sexual orientation and relationships has completely skipped over that as an option; in fact, prior to Marten meeting Tai (which I first read ~4 months ago), I really didn't know they truly existed at all. Please tell me if I say anything else rude or offensive or just plain forgetful on that front.
Oh, nothing rude or offensive that I noticed. Just that in all the speculations and last week's poll listing all kinds of constellations, Brun/Mille + Clinton/Elliot and Clinton/Elliot/Brun were treated as mutually exclusive and the idea of "all of the above" didn't come up, but that doesn't make sense. Well, not to me at least. Then again, the whole concept of monogamy doesn't really make sense to me. It's a common misconception, though also a preference of some, that everyone has to be involved with everyone in a polyamorous relationship. While the more common reality seems to be along the lines of "A is involved with B and C, B and C hopefully get along, B is also married to D, C is casually dating a few other people, monogamous friends regularly ask for diagrams", oh and "A and B are looking for a 'third' to 'add to their relationship' and are surprised at the shortage of hot bi girls lining up to date both of them".

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WARNING! PROTOCOL BREACH! WARNING! PROTOCOL BREACH! WARNNG!

A forum member has employed logic and common sense in the WCDT!

DEPLOY THE DRONES! RELEASE THE BATTLE-PANDAS!

This is NOT a drill!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh no, I'm terribly sorry, it's an annoying habit of mine it won't happen- wait did I do it again? Ugh, I'm defenseless against battle-pandas!
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Kairi on 19 Aug 2020, 19:19
that blep tho  :-P

(the "dummy" panel is quite possibly my favorite panel ever? lookit that sibling interaction d'awww)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: TRenn on 19 Aug 2020, 21:10
... he's making an effort to not get ahead of himself with fantasies.

Do people really do this? My fantasies get way ahead of me. That's what they're FOR.

I want to see Clinton go to the Horrible Revelation for a thoughtful beer and get some relationship advice from Jimbo.

Then completely ignore it as is right & proper because Jimbo.

Alternatively, treat whatever Jimbo says as "what to absolutely not do under any circumstances, on pain of pain."
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: SmilingCat on 19 Aug 2020, 21:57
Sigh... How about, relationships don't have orientations or gender identities so they can't be queer or straight?  :?

People are hard coded to categorize things, and we've been walking around with this particular brand of baggage culturally hammered into us for hundreds of years. You might be waiting a while for such a simple and obvious concept to actually be simple an obvious to most people.  :laugh:
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: SmilingCat on 19 Aug 2020, 22:02
As for the comic itself, there's something adorable about the way Clinton is fanning himself.

Though for some reason I was kinda hoping he wasn't interested in Elliot. Like I'd associated being unlucky in love with Elliot's character and it bothers me that his luck may change and no I'm not projecting because I'm lonely, you're projecting!
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 19 Aug 2020, 23:10
Yeah, I have to agree that, if there is one thing Claire can teach her younger brother, it is this: Learning who you are and coming to terms with that fact isn't a destination, it's a never-ending journey. More importantly, if you wait until you're 100% sure before doing anything, then you'll never do anything!
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Cornelius on 20 Aug 2020, 00:59
They have every right to their opinion. They have no right to be an asshole about it.

Please do not take their behaviour as representative of how inclusive queer folk are generally.

I don't. It's really a minority reaction, in my experience. What is disturbing, though, is that it seems to be the standard reaction of LGBT organisations around here. So I cannot trust them.

Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: traroth on 20 Aug 2020, 01:43



 known heterosexual

sorry friend, but citation needed

there's been a helluva lot of ink spilled on cultural assumptions, so i hate to spill more, but... yeah.


Clinton is a man who dated or tried to date women before, and never expressed interest in men. I don't know what's your definition of heterosexual, but in mine, that matches pretty well.

Which doesn't mean he cannot realize he's actually interested in Elliot. Life is a process, not a state.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: traroth on 20 Aug 2020, 01:47
I find myself agreeing with Pintsize. Which is generally not a good thing.

Seriously, the narrative Claire spins doesn't do anything for me, because, y'know, I'm not at all attracted to men, or male sexual attributes like bulging muscles. Clinton's reactions make him out to be pretty gay.

I'm no longer sold on him being bi. Mainly because he didn't overheat that way over Brun or Emily. In fact, he had a conversation with Brun where he expressed uncertainty as to whether he was attracted to her. Which was a conversation I found decidedly weird at the time, since I've never had any doubts about who I found attractive. But then, I was never a gay male attempting to struggle against cultural programming telling me I should be interested in women.

You're assuming too much. Not being attracted by a woman (or even two, for that matter) doesn't mean not being attracted by women.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Scarlet Manuka on 20 Aug 2020, 02:54
In fairness however, if most of your social circle is LGBT, and you are not, you're probably much more liable to be open to the possibilities than if everyone you know is cis/hetero and repressed as all hell.
What difference does it make if they are repressed? In fact it seems to me that it ought to be worse if they were outspoken about it, so I don't know why you added this clause at all (it comes aross to me as a little bit of gratuitously implying that cis/hetero people are just that way because they are repressed, but presumably that's not what you intended). If you do think that would make it worse I'd be interested to know why.

Who should Clinton go to for relationship advice?
Pintsize, of course!

Half serious and half because of the possible range of amusing consequences.

Can we just skip to the relationship we ALL really care about? Anthropomorphic French bread and Roko!
Maybe she should try going out with one of the toaster AIs (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1999) (one who is willing to engage in conversation rather than just flinging toast at her à la Pintsize). Although we know she also has a weakness for Human Abs, and has fantasised about Clinton before.

... Now I kind of want to see Roko getting involved in the current arc.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: AfternoonGlory on 20 Aug 2020, 06:02
The ideal partner for Roko is a freshly baked loaf of french bread with abs
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: ihaveavoice on 20 Aug 2020, 07:58
Quick note that being attracted to Claire does nothing to alter Marten's sexuality. He's no less hetero for falling for a trans woman.

Again, I'm not up on my modern terminology, but my understanding is that trans people are by definition under the queer umbrella.  Thus Martin/Claire is a queer relationship even though Martin himself might not be queer.

The T is part of LGBT, yes, but there's this really harmful "but they aren't REALLY that gender" cultural line of thinking that leads to all sorts of messed up conversations, and I wanted to make sure to pop that in as a note that we might not want to stumble into those implications. It really takes the harmlessness away from any well-meant statement that could possibly imply a heterosexual man is no longer het if he's attracted to a transwoman. And the original comment was about the sexuality of individual characters, not the perception of relationships as queer, so it is relevant enough that I felt the quick correction would be helpful.

For a pop culture example of writers fucking this sort of thing up, see the show Big Mouth having a pansexual character explain her sexuality as being into men, women, men transitioning into women, and women transitioning into men (using tacos and hot dogs or something - idk, I don't watch it, just saw a clip back when this was a thing). Holy unfortunate implications and inaccurate definitions, Batman! They were rightfully slammed for their dialogue promoting the harmful, unfortunately prevalent assumption that either trans people aren't REALLY that gender or they are only REALLY that gender once they can "pass." Probably felt pretty shitty to be a trans fan of the show.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Gnabberwocky on 20 Aug 2020, 09:03
For a pop culture example of writers fucking this sort of thing up, see the show Big Mouth having a pansexual character explain her sexuality as being into men, women, men transitioning into women, and women transitioning into men (using tacos and hot dogs or something - idk, I don't watch it, just saw a clip back when this was a thing).

In addition to the offensive statement about trans* people's genders "not counting," they also completely left out nonbinary, agender, gender-fluid, etc. from under the pansexual umbrella.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: snufflebottoms on 20 Aug 2020, 09:35
For a pop culture example of writers fucking this sort of thing up, see the show Big Mouth having a pansexual character explain her sexuality as being into men, women, men transitioning into women, and women transitioning into men (using tacos and hot dogs or something - idk, I don't watch it, just saw a clip back when this was a thing).

In addition to the offensive statement about trans* people's genders "not counting," they also completely left out nonbinary, agender, gender-fluid, etc. from under the pansexual umbrella.

I've seen that episode and it was a weird food metaphor. She ends it by saying "and anything else on the menu." I think it would have been better to skip the taco transitioning to a burrito (yes that's what she says) but they do acknowledge more than two genders and that the pansexual character can be attracted to any of them.   

ETA: Also at least one thing right about that episode is that they address that just because she's pansexual doesn't mean she wants to be with everyone. It's big mouth so it's during a weird ass wedding between two middle schoolers. 
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: cybersmurf on 20 Aug 2020, 14:15
The way I perceive it, homo-, hetero- and bisexual are "just" points on a gradient. The question is: how far towards one end are you, actually? Too far out to ever consider it? Far enough inward to fantasise about it? Not enough for something serious? Or, like Faye and apparently Clinton - if you met the right person, you realise you're not that far off to one end?

I hope, my late night rambling makes enough sense to you, and doesn't offend anyone. It's just how it makes most sense to me, personally.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: tbodt on 20 Aug 2020, 14:53
I have the perfect analogy: gender/sexual identity is a vector space with infinite dimension
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: cesium133 on 20 Aug 2020, 15:04
I have the perfect analogy: gender/sexual identity is a vector space with infinite dimension
So if someone masturbates, then they're a unitary operator.
Someone who has a conjugal visit with someone just like them is Hermitian.

Clinton seems to be finding traces of bisexuality. Clinton and Elliot can have a good time together if they're determinant to do so.  :clairedoge:

I was going to make more awful puns, but it's been at least ten years since the last time I've taken a class in linear algebra.  :psyduck:
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: cesium133 on 20 Aug 2020, 15:06
Also, in response to the poll at the top of the thread, I don't know if any relationship I've ever been in was "serious", but my first was when I was in high school, and looking back on it years later, it was pretty fucked up.  :psyduck:
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Zebediah on 20 Aug 2020, 15:52
The ideal partner for Roko is a freshly baked loaf of french bread with abs
So, Elliot? [emoji16]
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 20 Aug 2020, 18:19
Comic's up.

Renee is absolutely correct. Elliot should be proud of himself, and he should save the moping until he gets a definite 'no'.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Tova on 20 Aug 2020, 18:21
Sourdough is made of nothing but happiness, Jeph, you heathen.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Gnabberwocky on 20 Aug 2020, 18:27
The way I perceive it, homo-, hetero- and bisexual are "just" points on a gradient. The question is: how far towards one end are you, actually? Too far out to ever consider it? Far enough inward to fantasise about it? Not enough for something serious? Or, like Faye and apparently Clinton - if you met the right person, you realise you're not that far off to one end?

I hope, my late night rambling makes enough sense to you, and doesn't offend anyone. It's just how it makes most sense to me, personally.

I get what you mean, and I like the analogy, but where would something like pansexuality fall on the scale?

Or, is it more like a series of gradients? Like, this is where I fall on the bisexuality scale, this is where I fall on the demisexuality scale, etc.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: shanejayell on 20 Aug 2020, 19:26
One wonders what Renee's ANGRY bread tastes like?  :laugh:
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 20 Aug 2020, 19:28
For Brun, it would probably taste like raisins  (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3784)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: tbodt on 20 Aug 2020, 19:56
The way I perceive it, homo-, hetero- and bisexual are "just" points on a gradient. The question is: how far towards one end are you, actually? Too far out to ever consider it? Far enough inward to fantasise about it? Not enough for something serious? Or, like Faye and apparently Clinton - if you met the right person, you realise you're not that far off to one end?

I hope, my late night rambling makes enough sense to you, and doesn't offend anyone. It's just how it makes most sense to me, personally.

I get what you mean, and I like the analogy, but where would something like pansexuality fall on the scale?

Or, is it more like a series of gradients? Like, this is where I fall on the bisexuality scale, this is where I fall on the demisexuality scale, etc.

Infinite dimension vector space, like I said. Maybe ℝ^ℵ₀
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: SmilingCat on 20 Aug 2020, 20:17
Prediction!

Despite Renee's advice, Elliot is going to get more and more dejected. Eventually he will reach that state of depression known as "completely out of fucks".

This will actually feel strangely liberating to Elliot, like a nirvana made of screaming obscenities at pressmen (your experiences may vary).

So the next time he see's Brun, he'll ask her out, bluntly, without hesitation, expecting a refusal because he figures that's all he deserves.

She'll say yes.  This will eventually register with Elliot.

Then Clinton will show up to discover that Elliot is now going out with Brun. He will also lapse into depression.

Except Brun tells him that it's okay if he also goes out with Elliot, because she's normalized the behavior of casual relationships from watching Renee, and will consider it perfectly reasonable for a person to try dating multiple people before settling on one person. Jumping into a commitment right from the get go is stupid, after all.

This will cause Clinton to ask if... maybe... it would be okay if they also went out. Brun will reply sure.

This is the point where Elliot wakes up to his cat sitting on his chest demanding brekky. 
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: sitnspin on 20 Aug 2020, 20:20
Sourdough is made of nothing but happiness, Jeph, you heathen.
Sourdough tastes like bread that has gone rancid to me.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Gnabberwocky on 20 Aug 2020, 20:35
Prediction!

Despite Renee's advice, Elliot is going to get more and more dejected. Eventually he will reach that state of depression known as "completely out of fucks".

This will actually feel strangely liberating to Elliot, like a nirvana made of screaming obscenities at pressmen (your experiences may vary).

So the next time he see's Brun, he'll ask her out, bluntly, without hesitation, expecting a refusal because he figures that's all he deserves.

She'll say yes.  This will eventually register with Elliot.

Then Clinton will show up to discover that Elliot is now going out with Brun. He will also lapse into depression.

Except Brun tells him that it's okay if he also goes out with Elliot, because she's normalized the behavior of casual relationships from watching Renee, and will consider it perfectly reasonable for a person to try dating multiple people before settling on one person. Jumping into a commitment right from the get go is stupid, after all.

This will cause Clinton to ask if... maybe... it would be okay if they also went out. Brun will reply sure.

This is the point where Elliot wakes up to his cat sitting on his chest demanding brekky.

That made my head hurt.

I'd be okay with the final outcome of that, but the journey there might kill me. Clinton, it's on you to stop this. Please hurry.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 20 Aug 2020, 20:42
We'll probably go back to May next week
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: cesium133 on 20 Aug 2020, 20:44
'Round these parts we've been stuck in March for a while.

Oh, you're talking about May the AI.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Gyrre on 20 Aug 2020, 20:49
I agree with Renee. Elliot should be proud of himself for 'laying his cards on the table'.

As a shy guy, I can relate with the difficulty of putting oneself out their like that.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Gyrre on 20 Aug 2020, 20:54
I find myself agreeing with Pintsize. Which is generally not a good thing.

Seriously, the narrative Claire spins doesn't do anything for me, because, y'know, I'm not at all attracted to men, or male sexual attributes like bulging muscles. Clinton's reactions make him out to be pretty gay.

I'm no longer sold on him being bi. Mainly because he didn't overheat that way over Brun or Emily. In fact, he had a conversation with Brun where he expressed uncertainty as to whether he was attracted to her. Which was a conversation I found decidedly weird at the time, since I've never had any doubts about who I found attractive. But then, I was never a gay male attempting to struggle against cultural programming telling me I should be interested in women.

You're assuming too much. Not being attracted by a woman (or even two, for that matter) doesn't mean not being attracted by women.
I wonder if it's more a matter of personality for Clinton?
(I think that's pansexual, but not sure. Online searches are unhelpful.)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Tova on 20 Aug 2020, 21:29
Sourdough is made of nothing but happiness, Jeph, you heathen.
Sourdough tastes like bread that has gone rancid to me.

I take it, then, that you're not a fan of fermented foods in general?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: jesslc on 20 Aug 2020, 21:46
Quote

As a tangent, it comes to mind that I seriously don't think that the comic has yet depicted an AI-to-AI romantic relationship -- but then again, there was that one strip of Winslow being stunned speechless over Roko, of which absolutely nothing has resulted since.

There was Seven and the previously-just-an-arm AI whose name I can't remember for the life of me, and my archive-fu is not very good.
Jeremy - the former assembly arm - has been one of my favourite minor characters ever since he spoke up to help Bubbles way back then... I'd love to see more of him and Seven, and how they're going with the new robot fighting gym.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: St.Clair on 20 Aug 2020, 22:20
Sourdough is made of nothing but happiness, Jeph, you heathen.
Sourdough tastes like bread that has gone rancid to me.

I take it, then, that you're not a fan of fermented foods in general?

Different poster, but I'll chime in:

Pretty much.  Like, I actually like artichoke hearts and some other things in a mix of oil and vinegar; and you could probably coax a few other examples out of me if I thought about it for a while.  But overall, I'd rather have, e.g., grape juice over any sort of wine.  And definitely not sourdough.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: sitnspin on 20 Aug 2020, 22:42
Sourdough is made of nothing but happiness, Jeph, you heathen.
Sourdough tastes like bread that has gone rancid to me.

I take it, then, that you're not a fan of fermented foods in general?
Does Scotch count as food?  :-D
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: cybersmurf on 20 Aug 2020, 22:46
The way I perceive it, homo-, hetero- and bisexual are "just" points on a gradient. The question is: how far towards one end are you, actually? Too far out to ever consider it? Far enough inward to fantasise about it? Not enough for something serious? Or, like Faye and apparently Clinton - if you met the right person, you realise you're not that far off to one end?

I hope, my late night rambling makes enough sense to you, and doesn't offend anyone. It's just how it makes most sense to me, personally.

I get what you mean, and I like the analogy, but where would something like pansexuality fall on the scale?

Or, is it more like a series of gradients? Like, this is where I fall on the bisexuality scale, this is where I fall on the demisexuality scale, etc.


I must admit this is very simplified. Linear gradient, one-dimensional. I also have to admit, I probably am not aware of all the possibilities. In reality, this is more likely to be like a cube, and one's sexuality is a point within three dimensional space within that cube {and that's probably still not considering everything). And I was just looking at one edge of said cube.



And concerning today's comic: Elliott, if people could taste your sadness, they would've complained while you were brooding over Padma!
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Tova on 20 Aug 2020, 22:50
Sourdough is made of nothing but happiness, Jeph, you heathen.
Sourdough tastes like bread that has gone rancid to me.

I take it, then, that you're not a fan of fermented foods in general?
Does Scotch count as food?  :-D

YES  8-)

Maybe the distillation step makes the difference. Or maybe the alcohol. :D
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: BenRG on 20 Aug 2020, 23:14
Okay: So it seems that, like some forumites, Elliot has assumed that 'let me think about it' was code for 'no' and has gone to a dark and sad place as a result. Which makes me think I know where this may go next.

If there is one thing that makes you vulnerable to making snap decisions its feeling down like this. So, when someone walks into the bakery (Roko?), sees sad Elliot and starts trying to cheer him up in way that could be interpreted as flirting with him, he's going to grab the chance with both hands. So, Clinton is going to come in to say 'yes' to find that the boat has sailed. Then he'll be the one feeling bad and likely to make a snap and poor choice and so on. So, we're going to have a chain of interim relationship choices which may or may not turn out to be long-term but with this unfinished business always hovering in the background.

If I'm right, Jeph has basically given himself about 3,000 strips of material as everything slowly works itself out.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Farideh on 20 Aug 2020, 23:21
I hope Renee manages to talk Elliot out of his slump.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: ZoeB on 20 Aug 2020, 23:37
Quick note that being attracted to Claire does nothing to alter Marten's sexuality. He's no less hetero for falling for a trans woman.

Again, I'm not up on my modern terminology, but my understanding is that trans people are by definition under the queer umbrella. 

I disagree. Not that that's your understanding, only you get to say what that is, but that trans is necessarily a subset of queer, that there are no trans people who are not queer.

I mean, why are they "queer" by definition? What does "queer" mean in context?

Is a man who has had a vasectomy "queer" by definition? What about one who has been circumcised? Or *not* circumcised, if circumcision is "standard", "usual", *normal* in that society?

Something to ponder: are Guevedoces "queer" by definition?

Quote
. Science 1974 Dec 27; 186 (4170): 1213-5

    In an isolated village of the southwestern Dominican Republic, 2% of the live births were in the 1970's, guevedoces ... These children appeared to be girls at birth, but at puberty these 'girls' sprout muscles, testes, and a penis. For the rest of their lives they are men in nearly all respects. Their underlying pathology was found to be a deficiency of the enzyme, 5-alpha Reductase

5ARD for short. 17BHSD is similar. 3BHSD can cause such a "natural sex change" in either direction.

Many Trans people identify as queer. Some do not. Technically, I'm Intersex (see 3BHSD above) rather than Trans, and thus biologically far more different from the normal than the usual, common or garden cis or trans person. I did transition, and psych evaluation showed no significant difference from the more usual trans women, so close enough.  I don't identify as being queer myself, though acknowledge that many people would say I must be by definition. I just deny that they know what they're talking about, and ask them to logically examine their definitions, assumptions, and conclusions, why they think that.

Claire is a woman with an unusual history. I have no idea whether she identifies as "queer" or not, but there's no evidence that she does. To assert that what apparently is a fairly standard het relationship has to be queer because of her past history seems unsafe.

How do we know that, for example, Sven wasn't born mildly Intersex, and had genital reconstruction as an infant to match the medical team's  best guess as to his sex? Some syndromes there's a 99% chance they're correct, others it's a coin toss. Such situations are a heck of a lot more common than Trans. Would that make him "queer", and thus any girl who had a relationship with him be in a "queer" relationship? If (as is considered best practice today) there had been no surgery without informed consent, so his anatomy would be mildly unusual , would he be "queer" then?

We don't know Sven's operative history, and inquiries about his, or Padma's, or Hanners' exact genital configuration current or past would be severely creepy, no?

TLDR: Claire is a woman. Martyn is a man.

Now let's get back to Elliot and how he doesn't deserve to be hurt. Kudos to Renee and all good hearted people like her.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: ihaveavoice on 21 Aug 2020, 01:01
Okay: So it seems that, like some forumites, Elliot has assumed that 'let me think about it' was code for 'no' and has gone to a dark and sad place as a result. Which makes me think I know where this may go next.

If there is one thing that makes you vulnerable to making snap decisions its feeling down like this. So, when someone walks into the bakery (Roko?), sees sad Elliot and starts trying to cheer him up in way that could be interpreted as flirting with him, he's going to grab the chance with both hands. So, Clinton is going to come in to say 'yes' to find that the boat has sailed. Then he'll be the one feeling bad and likely to make a snap and poor choice and so on. So, we're going to have a chain of interim relationship choices which may or may not turn out to be long-term but with this unfinished business always hovering in the background.

If I'm right, Jeph has basically given himself about 3,000 strips of material as everything slowly works itself out.

One thing I really like about QC is how Jeph will often have a character take what could have been one of those spiraling stupid "just open your mouth and SPEAK, dummy!" problems to a friend to talk it out, and then they get a different perspective and adjust their actions accordingly. It would be really disappointing and annoying to have this play out with Elliot completely ignoring these and any other words of encouragement that Renee offers him and then doing something reckless as a result. And frankly, I'd say it's out of character. For all his mooning over unrequited crushes, Elliot has never seemed unreasonable or unwilling to listen to his friends.

I also don't really see him being in a "dark and sad" place right now. He's sad, sure, but it's an acute sort of pang from going straight from butterflies to uncertainty and having his insecurities flare up as a result. Not every strong emotional fluctuation is a descent into the abyss.

That said: SAD CRUMPLY ELLIOT FAAAAAAAAACCCCCEEEEEEEEE *collapses*
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: marbledmurrelet on 21 Aug 2020, 03:57
@ZoeB: As far as I'm aware, 'queer' can be used both as an umbrella term for LGBTQ+ (i.e. including the T) and more generally but also more specifically for people who challenge society's norms and binaries around sexuality and gender. I can see how it doesn't necessarily make sense to call a heteronormative trans person queer, though. And I absolutely agree that one partner having a different gender than the one assigned at birth doesn't make their relationships queer - that just reeks of the old "not a real woman".

I still think it's weird to call relationships queer or straight or gay in general, just because one or more of the people involved are. Or, think about this: you'd call a relationship queer because ONE of the people involved is - but wouldn't it just as well be straight because one of the people involved is? Hmm? Unless that one person somehow taints the whole relationship with their queerness...
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: oddtail on 21 Aug 2020, 05:15
I still think it's weird to call relationships queer or straight or gay in general, just because one or more of the people involved are. Or, think about this: you'd call a relationship queer because ONE of the people involved is - but wouldn't it just as well be straight because one of the people involved is? Hmm? Unless that one person somehow taints the whole relationship with their queerness...

On the one hand, I share the sentiment that calling a relationship queer on the basis of e.g. sexual orientation of a person in it is a bit weird. I don't consider my marriage a queer one, even though both my wife and I are bi.

On the other hand, it's not about "tainting" anything with queerness. Queerness is a concept that exists in contrast with the cultural idea of straightness. It's unfortunate perhaps, but that's how it works. Similarly to how you're likely to see Barack Obama called a black man, but you'd be hard-pressed to see him called a white man, even if logically, he should be about as white as he is black, based on his family history. But that's not how it works.

Whiteness is an idea built around a default and an absence of a perceived characteristic. As harmful as that idea historically was, that's how it's still used, including by non-white people.

Similarly, if we say a relationship involving a queer person is queer relationship, I don't think it *automatically* follows that a relationship involving a straight person is a straight relationship.

I continue to wonder if the "queer" label for a relationship should be metonymic for the people in it, or a description of something about the relationship itself. Is there any semi-broad consensus on that?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Case on 21 Aug 2020, 05:52
I have the perfect analogy: gender/sexual identity is a vector space with infinite dimension
So if someone masturbates, then they're a unitary operator.
Someone who has a conjugal visit with someone just like them is Hermitian.

Nope, someone who masturbates is (applying) the unity operator.

Unitary operators are forgettable one-night stands.
Anti-Unitary operators, otoh, are one-night stands you wished you'd already forgotten.

...OhGodShaddapCase!

Clinton seems to be finding traces of bisexuality. Clinton and Elliot can have a good time together if they're determinant to do so.  :clairedoge:

https://youtu.be/ETNRfcNIl2w?list=PLbtJeG28_QO-jUu-njThh0p_sA-AEsTSJ&t=62


I was going to make more awful puns, but it's been at least ten years since the last time I've taken a class in linear algebra.  :psyduck:

Quantum theory is the continuation of linear algebra by other means.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Tova on 21 Aug 2020, 06:01
Risky click of the day.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: marbledmurrelet on 21 Aug 2020, 06:07
Whiteness is an idea built around a default and an absence of a perceived characteristic. As harmful as that idea historically was, that's how it's still used, including by non-white people.

Similarly, if we say a relationship involving a queer person is queer relationship, I don't think it *automatically* follows that a relationship involving a straight person is a straight relationship.
I'm not an expert on racial matters, but someone whose (more immediate, visible) ancestry includes non-white people will be subjected to racism and treated much more like a POC than like a white person. Relationships between people who appear to have different racial heritage are also treated accordingly, so it makes sense to me to call them "interracial". I don't even know if this comparison is any good, as the whole concept of race is pretty much Western colonial bullshit as far as I've understood it. Though... the concept of straight vs. gay or queer seems to be quite recently made up Western bullshit as well, so... sigh. I digress.

Anyway, back to Claire. She's most certainly hurt by transphobia even if it's not directed at her personally, but that's purely her as an individual. She's a woman, she's perceived as a woman by everyone around her, and she's with a man who's perceived as a man. Their relationship - between a man and a woman, monogamous and everything - is perfectly conventional. Calling it a "queer relationship" would make zero sense.

Quote
I continue to wonder if the "queer" label for a relationship should be metonymic for the people in it, or a description of something about the relationship itself. Is there any semi-broad consensus on that?
Is there any good reason to use the "queer" label for a relationship that's not even visibly challenging any norms? The only reason I can see for saying "queer relationship" in a metonymic way would be having a shorter term for "relationship that's not between a man and a woman". Other than that, what's the point?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Case on 21 Aug 2020, 06:23
Risky click of the day.

Maybe so, but don't tell me you aren't wide awake now ...  :evil:
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Perfectly Reasonable on 21 Aug 2020, 07:40
Mood breads! A whole new field for bakers!
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: eschaton on 21 Aug 2020, 08:33
Going back to my original point about "queer relationships" - I understand the argument that relationships can't be queer or straight.  However, we talk about queer politics, queer art, queer music, queer fashion, queer culture., etc.  Does queerness inhabit everything queer people do, except for interpersonal relationships if the other person happens to be cis and of the (perceived) opposite gender?

If you're going at it with the presumption (which is what the comic suggests) that Claire "passes" I do agree on a day-to-day basis Martin's lived experience is pretty conventional.  However, if Claire did not pass he would deal with transphobia and (wrongly assigned) homophobia as part of his everyday life. Sort of like how if you're white and date a black person (as I have in the past) you become much more aware of casual racism that you would otherwise have been blind to.  It wouldn't make Martin himself queer of course, but it would make the "personal political" for him. 
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: sitnspin on 21 Aug 2020, 08:58
Does a person need to be "visible" in order to be queer?

That being said, whether a relationship (or an individual) is considered queer is really up to them.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: eschaton on 21 Aug 2020, 09:08
That being said, whether a relationship (or an individual) is considered is really up to them.

I thought about saying this, but I was afraid of getting people upset.

I mean, if people can self-identify their gender whatever they wish, they can also self-identify their sexuality however they wish.  So if someone who is in a relationship with a transwoman wants to call themselves queer, that's kinda up to them. 
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: oddtail on 21 Aug 2020, 10:49
Going back to my original point about "queer relationships" - I understand the argument that relationships can't be queer or straight.  However, we talk about queer politics, queer art, queer music, queer fashion, queer culture., etc.  Does queerness inhabit everything queer people do, except for interpersonal relationships if the other person happens to be cis and of the (perceived) opposite gender?

That is a good point, I didn't think of that.

On the other hand, queer fashion, music or culture are, well, cultural things. They're broader categories, and I don't know if any piece of music composed by a queer person is queer music. And if it is, it's different than queerness of music that forms, and is explicitly and implicitly informed by, queer culture. I think?

Quote
If you're going at it with the presumption (which is what the comic suggests) that Claire "passes" I do agree on a day-to-day basis Martin's lived experience is pretty conventional.  However, if Claire did not pass he would deal with transphobia and (wrongly assigned) homophobia as part of his everyday life. Sort of like how if you're white and date a black person (as I have in the past) you become much more aware of casual racism that you would otherwise have been blind to.  It wouldn't make Martin himself queer of course, but it would make the "personal political" for him.

I'm uncomfortable with this line of reasoning because it (kind of) feeds into a notion that implicitly equates oppression with queerness. Queer identities derive a sense of solidarity from a shared oppression, but I'd argue they've grown beyond that base? I think? So I don't know how I feel about determining queerness on the basis of outside world's reactions to the relationship. I'm not saying it's not a factor, but... I dunno.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: sitnspin on 21 Aug 2020, 11:10
My queer identity is not defined by how the outside world perceives me. It is who I am. I would still be queer even if no one could tell.  Much of queer culture, like any culture, is about shared experience and perspectives, which are of course partially shaped by the oppression and othering we get from non-queer culture, but there is much more to it than that. There are a lot of experiences that are unique to us that growing up and living cishet people just don't go through. But we are a diverse lot, with a lot of different cultures tucked within, and like everyone else, a lot of individual unique experiences as well.

Again, queer is a self ascribed label and shouldn't be thrust upon anyone from the outside.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: marbledmurrelet on 21 Aug 2020, 11:23
Going back to my original point about "queer relationships" - I understand the argument that relationships can't be queer or straight.  However, we talk about queer politics, queer art, queer music, queer fashion, queer culture., etc.  Does queerness inhabit everything queer people do, except for interpersonal relationships if the other person happens to be cis and of the (perceived) opposite gender?

If you're going at it with the presumption (which is what the comic suggests) that Claire "passes" I do agree on a day-to-day basis Martin's lived experience is pretty conventional.  However, if Claire did not pass he would deal with transphobia and (wrongly assigned) homophobia as part of his everyday life. Sort of like how if you're white and date a black person (as I have in the past) you become much more aware of casual racism that you would otherwise have been blind to.  It wouldn't make Martin himself queer of course, but it would make the "personal political" for him.
...Ah, oddtail already made the points I just typed, plus another good one.

Does a person need to be "visible" in order to be queer?

That being said, whether a relationship (or an individual) is considered queer is really up to them.
I hope you're not putting words in my mouth that I never said in any way. A person obviously doesn't need to be visibly queer in order to be queer. My question was about relationships, and it was a question. That you didn't answer. Why would you want to say you're in a "queer relationship" because of something about the identity or orientation of your partner? How does that make the relationship queer? I can see it make some amount of sense if the partner is visibly queer and it affects the way the relationship is treated (like in eschaton's example), but not if it doesn't make a difference for the relationship.

I mean, if people can self-identify their gender whatever they wish, they can also self-identify their sexuality however they wish.  So if someone who is in a relationship with a transwoman wants to call themselves queer, that's kinda up to them. 
Well, if an otherwise straight man wants to call himself queer on the basis of being in a relationship with a trans woman, I sure hope he tells her that so she can choose to let him self-identify without her. (In case it wasn't clear, that's implying she's not a "real woman", again.)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Torlek on 21 Aug 2020, 11:51
Again, queer is a self ascribed label and shouldn't be thrust upon anyone from the outside.

/thread

Seriously, reading this thread has sounded like middle schoolers arguing over who is on which dodgeball team.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Thrillho on 21 Aug 2020, 13:54
Let's not get into discussing the quality of discourse, eh?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: marbledmurrelet on 21 Aug 2020, 14:40
Honestly, we're discussing queer - even trans - issues. On the internet. There's been no name-calling, no severe -phobia that I'm aware of, I don't even think we've confirmed Godwin's Law. What more do you want?
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: pwhodges on 21 Aug 2020, 15:19
I mean, if people can self-identify their gender whatever they wish, they can also self-identify their sexuality however they wish.

But it's not a matter of self-identifying as they wish - which implies a free choice. It's self-identifying what they are - i.e. not necessarily what other people think they are.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: eschaton on 21 Aug 2020, 17:23
I mean, if people can self-identify their gender whatever they wish, they can also self-identify their sexuality however they wish.

But it's not a matter of self-identifying as they wish - which implies a free choice. It's self-identifying what they are - i.e. not necessarily what other people think they are.

Of course, however, no one can judge who a person is except for that person themselves.   Therefore, you are acceding to the self-identification that they desire, rather than what you (or society) might impose upon them. 

I mean, I remember years back when my daughter (who is now 11) first heard about trans people.  She asked me how to tell if someone was male or female.  I paused, thought about it for a bit, and said you had to take their word for it. 

Though I'd say fundamentally speaking I just don't hold truck with the essentialist ideas of gender, either in terms of bodies or brains.  I mean, there used to be a lot of discussion of a "female brain in a male body" and vice versa, but it's kinda a problematic way to word things because it implies that brains have concrete genders, and leaves out genderqueer/agender people and the such.  Much like the "born this way" defense of gayness was conservative because it acted like something was wrong with being gay, and it wouldn't be acceptable if gayness was indeed a choice. 

Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether gender identity or sexuality is immutable or somewhat flexible.  Peoples professed identities should be accepted at face value. 
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: ZoeB on 22 Aug 2020, 04:00
However, if Claire did not pass he would deal with transphobia and (wrongly assigned) homophobia as part of his everyday life.

Perhaps you might care to rephrase that? Referring to Claire as "him" is, er, well everyone says damnsillystupid things sometimes.

This one is enough to cause some people to remove the locks from the torch and pitchforks locker, so perhaps some swift retraction might be helpful. Be glad that it's still at the readying state, as here we all assume a lack of deliberate assholery when there's a slim possibility of it just being a brain fart.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Cornelius on 22 Aug 2020, 05:22
The way I read it, they were referring to Marten, really. As in, "if Claire didn't pass, Marten would have to deal with..."
Really obvious from the preceding sentence, really.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Skewbrow on 22 Aug 2020, 06:31
Sourdough is made of nothing but happiness, Jeph, you heathen.
Sourdough tastes like bread that has gone rancid to me.
Whoever bakes it for you may be doing something wrong then. The sourdough culture needs to be ... cultured. My wife has pretty much nailed it. It does become a bit too potent over time. I'm afraid I don't know exactly what she does to avoid that. Best consumed within a couple of days.

A couple decades ago when I still wanted to learn it I ruined many a good sourdough by adding too much flour into it. Unlike when baking cinnamon rolls or buns you need to let the dough be "sticky" when you start kneading. I never figured it out - I don't know how she manages it.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: N.N. Marf on 22 Aug 2020, 06:41
However, if Claire did not pass he would deal with transphobia and (wrongly assigned) homophobia as part of his everyday life.
Perhaps you might care to rephrase that? Referring to Claire as "him" is, ...
The way I read it, they were referring to Marten, really. As in, "if Claire didn't pass, Marten would have to deal with..."
Really obvious from the preceding sentence, really.
I figured that it was referring to Marten, but strictly speaking, pronouns refer to the latest thing mentioned that that pronoun could refer to: a gendered personal pronoun would refer to the latest-mentioned person of that gender; whether a gendered personal pronoun refers apply to the latest-mentioned person depends on that person's gender. Of course, associateing different gender as that person's gender might cause a reader to misconstrue that sentence. (This ability to misconstrue based on the reader's (mis-) understanding of someone's gender might be used to to covertly signal one's ideas about someone's gender to like-minded persons.) I try to avoid that confusion by using ``he'' for any gender.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: eschaton on 22 Aug 2020, 06:55
The way I read it, they were referring to Marten, really. As in, "if Claire didn't pass, Marten would have to deal with..."
Really obvious from the preceding sentence, really.

Indeed, the subject of the paragraph is Marten, not Claire - which is clear from the sentances before and after.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: pwhodges on 22 Aug 2020, 11:41
I try to avoid that confusion by using "he'' for any gender.

Whatever your intention, doing that deliberately will nowadays commonly be seen as offensive and misogynistic.  While circumlocutions can be clumsy, the habit of rewording sentences to avoid the issue when possible is not so hard to develop.  And the increasing use of "singular they" is often acceptable (and goes back to Chaucer and Shakespeare).  I suggest you reconsider your decision.

Quote
"He'' only came to connote the masculine gender after some persons tried to make persons of the feminine gender somehow inferior by introducing "she.''

That ignores the fact that gendered words are as old as recorded language itself. 

Quote
A similar history can be seen with the word "woman''---"man'' was always just short for "human'' (yes the moon-landing quote was faked) but "woman'' was introduced to try to dehumanize humans of the feminine gender.

"Man" and "Human" have different etymologies - they just happen to have ended up looking similar; they also somewhat swapped meanings!  "Man is from the Sanscrit word "manu" meaning "human" or "man"; whereas "human" is from the Latin "homo", meaning "man".

"Woman" is from the Old English "wifmann", the combination of "wif" meaning "woman" and "mann" meaning "man" - it thus originally denoted a wife.  It was not formed from man to form a demeaning alternative, but included the old word which already meant woman.  Of course, as this history is not apparent in the sounds of the modern words, it is important to use them in ways that prevent misunderstanding or which appear to make unjustified assumptions.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Theta9 on 22 Aug 2020, 13:22
``He'' only came to connote the masculine gender after some persons tried to make persons of the femmenine gender somehow inferior by introducing ``she.'' A similar history can be seen with the word ``woman''---``man'' was always just short for ``human'' (yes the moon-landing quote was faked) but ``woman'' was introduced to try to dehumanize humans of the femmenine gender. Since ages of using the dehumanizing terms in reference to humans of the femmenine gender, while their dehumanizing intent is kept covert, many have assumed that the primary meaning of the terms is to refer to the femmenine gender.
I find your assertion dubious. Citation needed.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Gnabberwocky on 22 Aug 2020, 15:46
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/wikipedian_protester.png)
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Oenone on 22 Aug 2020, 17:00
Renee is a really good friend. I know she’s still crushing on Elliot, but she’s just really good at helping her friends push their boundaries in really low key and safe ways.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Tova on 22 Aug 2020, 17:13
I googled.

Where did ‘she’ come from? (https://stancarey.wordpress.com/2011/03/09/where-did-she-come-from/)

TLDR: There's no definitive answer.

If avoiding confusion truly is the goal, I'd suggest that the use of the pronoun 'they' has become far more common than the previous use of 'he' as a gender-neutral pronoun, and would therefore cause less confusion (not to mention upset). Regardless of etymology.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: oddtail on 23 Aug 2020, 04:09
I googled.

Where did ‘she’ come from? (https://stancarey.wordpress.com/2011/03/09/where-did-she-come-from/)

TLDR: There's no definitive answer.

If avoiding confusion truly is the goal, I'd suggest that the use of the pronoun 'they' has become far more common than the previous use of 'he' as a gender-neutral pronoun, and would therefore cause less confusion (not to mention upset). Regardless of etymology.

And I question using a word in a way it was last used many centuries ago. English has changed quite a bit in the meantime and there's no point in arbitrarily sticking to one specific way it once worked. By that logic, we might as well just all switch to reconstructed Proto-Indo-European and be done with it.
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: ZoeB on 23 Aug 2020, 07:08
The way I read it, they were referring to Marten, really. As in, "if Claire didn't pass, Marten would have to deal with..."
Really obvious from the preceding sentence, really.

Indeed, the subject of the paragraph is Marten, not Claire - which is clear from the sentances before and after.

Ah. Brain Fart then. Whew! Too bad it was mine, but better that than any other alternative. My ego is so huge I can shrug off my own embarassing SNAFUs. Maybe an apology is also in order? Well, even if not, it can't  hurt and I'm  sorry for making such a mistake (says she, wiping egg of her face).
Title: Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
Post by: Scarlet Manuka on 23 Aug 2020, 20:39
One wonders what Renee's ANGRY bread tastes like?  :laugh:
If the world isn't ready for Chaos Loaf (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=4077), it's probably not ready for Angry Renee Bread either.