Comics up.
As a shipper of Brun/Clinton/Elliot, I'm now sad.
Does this method of determining attractiveness keep appearing because it's common or because it's funny?I won't say whether often or funny, but in my case, not effective. A schism between the imagined and the real is that has those classes, albeit not disjoint, distinct.
Depending on your level of ability to fully immerse yourself in your imaginings, it doesn't strike me as a particularly accurate method of gaugings one's feelings of attraction.Oh, I fully immerse myself in my imagination, when I do. And even when I don't. Even when I `stick to the facts' about the person. The best guage, I found, is going over all the little details, in mind, imagining fully each separately. After which, when I interact with the person, with all those small imaginings ready---after a few times, I can make the decision. A few days later, I make my decision. This is actually the same as my hiring process, except I stick to the facts on the resume. (And use a bland surrogate (average employee) instead of meeting them---the interview is after the decision is finalized, only to test the truth of their resume.) That's actually why I thought the `dating resume' bit was perfectly natural. (Or was that from Something Positive? which I found about the same time as Questionable Content, and my start-binge had me switching between them like alternating storylines---meanwhile in Boston.. meanwhile in Northampton.. To day, they feel like mutual spins-off.)
This makes me curious if Brun has ever thought about sex with anyone before now.Personally, I've been getting bit of an ace-spectrum vibe from Brun for quite a while now. Maybe I'm projecting but this latest comic certainly doesn't dispel my earlier impression.
This makes me curious if Brun has ever thought about sex with anyone before now.
Based on various comments Brun has made in the past, I've been under the impression that she doesn't really have much/any personal experience with intimate relationships.
So I think Brun is mostly likely basing her attempt to work out if she finds Clinton attractive on what she has interpreted from Renee's approach to things. Since Renee has a lot of casual flings, I can easily see Brun observing that and thinking that's what it means to be attracted to someone.
See also Brun generalising from Renee's behaviour previously in the comic here:
https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=4237
Perhaps we'll get a future comic where Brun tells Renee about this conversation with Clinton and Renee tries to explain that attraction isn't just wanting to have sex with someone. It can be, but attraction also shows itself in other ways too.
I think that this was a very obvious outcome in one variation or another. It makes sense that Brun just simply isn't wired up to think of Elliot or Clinton in this way.This is very interesting - I don't use Twitter so I missed that. I don't suppose you have a link? I'm curious about exactly what Jeph said.
In any case, some might recall that, about 6 months ago, Jeph publicaly announced on Twitter that he'd arbitrarily decided to add a new queer couple to QC on the grounds that someone had emailed him out of the blue to complain about the number of queer couples in the strip. Elliot and Clinton were then slightly rewritten to make this happen and Millie was turned into a romantic foil for Brun to get her out of the way. It's his strip, I guess.
I think you're mixing up how Renee responded to Brun telling her about the walk with Faye and Bubbles talking to Millefeuille about it. As I recall it, Renee just said "hmmm" or something like that and I'm pretty sure Brun still doesn't know that that walk might have been interpreted as a date.This makes me curious if Brun has ever thought about sex with anyone before now.
I mean, it's been my impression that Brun is aromantic and possibly asexual ever since Renee had to walk her through the possibility that her morning in the park with Millifeulle could have been interpreted as a date (something that obviously surprised her).
I mean, it's been my impression that Brun is aromantic and possibly asexual ever since Renee had to walk her through the possibility that her morning in the park with Millifeulle could have been interpreted as a date (something that obviously surprised her).It surprised me, too, the first time. All my dates have been like that, like something I'd do with a friend, but sometimes only with an intimate friend. Well, sometimes, it goes a little further. It depends on the person, and our mood. Like ℝ as upper/lower sets in ℚ. Sex is that optimum: never necessary, sometimes not there. Wham-bam thanks-now-leave sex feel like ℤ, which are fun, too.
Kinda icky to reply to "Do you find me attractive?" with 'I'm picturing us having sex"
Like ew.
Whelp Elliot looks like you're second choice. Elliot deserves better than being a consolation prize.I actually didn't read it that way. It felt more like Clinton trying to make sure he wasn't stepping on anyone's toes before he pursued a relationship with Elliot.
I actually didn't read it that way. It felt more like Clinton trying to make sure he wasn't stepping on anyone's toes before he pursued a relationship with Elliot.
I've got to admit, my first reading of it was that Clinton was seeing if he had his first choice option before going with a second. But other posters are right, there are other possibilities. The second most obvious understanding (to me personally) is that he was asking Brun if she finds him attractive, because he's just generally nervous about anyone finding him (Clinton) attractive, including Elliot, and was looking for some reassurance?
I've got to admit, my first reading of it was that Clinton was seeing if he had his first choice option before going with a second. But other posters are right, there are other possibilities. The second most obvious understanding (to me personally) is that he was asking Brun if she finds him attractive, because he's just generally nervous about anyone finding him (Clinton) attractive, including Elliot, and was looking for some reassurance?
I know that when I was single, I definitely sniffed around and explored my options. I tried to be direct about it though.
After todays comic I have very serious doubts Brun is even able to ever have a relationship. If the criterion to decide if you want a relationship with somebody is thinking if you like the idea of having sex with them then, well, thats really not how you decide to have a relationship.
if I’m considering having a relationship with a woman, of course I visualize having sex with her. If that’s not arousing, I can’t imagine it working out.
Whelp Elliot looks like you're second choice. Elliot deserves better than being a consolation prize.
It is, and I'm also surprised that Brun would have such a limited idea of what constitutes 'being attracted to somebody'...
Physical attractiveness is 1 specific form, sure, but there are so many others. You can also be mentally, or intellectually attracted to somebody but not physically.
Whelp Elliot looks like you're second choice. Elliot deserves better than being a consolation prize.
Yay Newfriend would be John Malkovich.I would buy that DVD (they still make those things) and I hate the movie industry.
I'm thinking Brun is asexual or possibly gay....I did consider that. But after yesterday's comic I thought perhaps she was gray-sexual (demisexual) and since my previous post, todays's went up (which easily supports that idea.) I was thinking "there has to be a Kinsey-like dimension for aces" and there is, and AVEN recognises it.
I'm thinking Brun is asexual or possibly gay....
Well at least we know there wont be a love triangle now!
I'm thinking that living with Renee for so long has given Brun some misguided ideas about things considered socially acceptable to say.
I live in a location that alternates 25-degree dry cold snaps and 40-degree downpours all winter (Fahrenheit). We got two inches of snow all of last year. The year before, we got hit with a storm that dropped around sixteen inches of snow, which is about four times our average amount for a whole winter.
Basically, no snow. Possibly for the next three months.
Got it in one.I live in a location that alternates 25-degree dry cold snaps and 40-degree downpours all winter (Fahrenheit). We got two inches of snow all of last year. The year before, we got hit with a storm that dropped around sixteen inches of snow, which is about four times our average amount for a whole winter.
Basically, no snow. Possibly for the next three months.
Western Washington, USA?
Wait a minute - isn't that what Claire said?
If you're using this as a disqualifier, I strongly recommend reconsidering it.
Although I'm in the northern hemisphere, I'm in California, so we maybe get snow once every 30 years or so at my elevation.
Poll answer:I guess that'd be option #2. Sorry.
I live on the Southern Hemisphere. We're moving towards summer now. No snow in the forecast atm.
In the case that a person started talking to me about masturbation, probably I would discuss masturbation with them.
I'm sure there's fanart of the NSFW variety for that already.Well at least we know there wont be a love triangle now!
Sadly no threesome either.
[SNIP]You take the Pintsizes with the-- who are the GOOD role models on QC? Possibly Dora? Jim Bean?Not sure where I read but there's a quote I saw that went "If you can't be an example, then be a warning."
[snip]
I concur with Brun, it really sucks when a guy pretends he wants to be friends then ditches you when you don't want to bang him. Like, it hurts. Guys, please don't do that.
I just got back from a walk and had to shake a bunch of snow off my umbrella.Something about that sentence strikes me as an absurdist joke, despite it's altogether plausibility. Perhaps the combination of the etymology suggesting shade, from the sun, the often use against rain, stereotypical, and the thought of snow---not necessarily early, for those whose year-end seasons bring snow---or a blizzard, all contrasting each other. The bright, warm sun---though in winter, what a lie that is! The restful, cool rain---though in summer, what a lie that is! The white, frosty snow---though always, what a lie that is!
Brun is a good role model.I think you may be right about that, mostly. Considering her choices, how she makes them, mostly. Of course, there are some things that are difficult for her to do, but she works with them, rather than around, mostly. Isn't there an old aphorism, ``everything in moderation, including moderation,'' or something to that effect?
Clinton is about to make himself unattractive to BOTH of his love interests.
Comic’s up. This is not going to end well.
Also, Wil makes an appearance. I can’t remember how long it’s been but I’m pretty sure it’s years.
Nope, he showed up last year (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3999).
Yeah, I think that Clinton was a lot more hopeful about Brun than most people thought, given that he's decided to get falling-down drunk. Something tells me that this is going to end up going very badly; badly enough that Elliot may wish to rethink a lot of things about him.Or Elliot escorts a severely underhydrated and drunk Clinton home, tries to give him some water that he refuses or drinks only a little. Elliot tucks Clinton into bed, refills his glass, then crashes on his couch after a long day's work.
Comic’s up. This is not going to end well.
Also, Wil makes an appearance. I can’t remember how long it’s been but I’m pretty sure it’s years.
Nope, he showed up last year (https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3999).
I love that comic. The 'betwixt my mighty glutes' bit always makes me giggle.
Okay, now Clinton in the first panel seems cheerful. Is he:
(a)putting on a brave face and proceeding to get totally shitfaced because he got shot down by Brun, or
(b) so relieved that the two-way tension of his Brun/Elliot indecision has been resolved, that he is now in a celebratory mood and will probably get shitfaced anyhow? :-\
Clinton, drowning your sorrows is a BAD IDEA.
A good role-model is one who, despite their situation, does what they can to improve it, irregarding whether it seems so to others.
To quote a certain redhead...And there it is.
"This is where the night goes from 'we had fun' to 'mistakes were made,' isn't it."
And this is what... after two drinks?
Also, I don't think I like Clinton anymore. He's on a date, and talking to Elliot about how he's sniffing around Brun and thrown by how she disinterested she was. That's super hurtful, completely self-absorbed, and feckless. I'm now thinking it's better that Elliot stay away, since he's just going to get hurt if Clinton can't be bothered to think about his feelings.Well, it's not necessarily a "date" in the normal sense, given that Clinton didn't give Elliott an answer beforehand, and Elliott is at work, so they weren't going to spend the whole time talking to each other anyway. But besides that quibble, yes, he's being gratuitously hurtful as well as stupid. I was never quite as pissed off at Corpse Witch as I now am at Clinton, which I suppose says a lot about how I'm reading this story.
Sure, it's just one slip, but there are some things that are fundamentally very revealing about a person's inner character. This one says Clinton doesn't think much about other people's feelings, even though he's on a date and should be very focused on them, and is a bit faithless since he was chasing Brun in his head even though he's got something potentially going on with Elliot. It lacks integrity.
And this is what... after two drinks?
Clinton appears to weigh about 50 pounds. Two pint-sized glasses of high-alcohol not-Miller Lite beers affecting him strongly is believable.
Also, I don't think I like Clinton anymore. He's on a date, and talking to Elliot about how he's sniffing around Brun and thrown by how she disinterested she was. That's super hurtful, completely self-absorbed, and feckless. I'm now thinking it's better that Elliot stay away, since he's just going to get hurt if Clinton can't be bothered to think about his feelings.
Sure, it's just one slip, but there are some things that are fundamentally very revealing about a person's inner character. This one says Clinton doesn't think much about other people's feelings, even though he's on a date and should be very focused on them, and is a bit faithless since he was chasing Brun in his head even though he's got something potentially going on with Elliot. It lacks integrity.
It'll probably get papered over and forgotten, or his personality changed in some way, this being a comic strip, but that's my current reaction.
Can we go back to following Roko around for a while? Maybe she'll find love and sex and bread, eventually.
I was never quite as pissed off at Corpse Witch as I now am at Clinton, which I suppose says a lot about how I'm reading this story.
LMAO! “ On a Date” He got invited to hang around where Elliot works
LMAO! “ On a Date” He got invited to hang around where Elliot works
Man, that was rude.
Sneer all you like, both of them built it up significantly. It's not a casual "let's just hang around" event for either of them. Quibbling about labels doesn't change what it actually means.
Yeah he said a rudeish thing but Meaner and less kind intending things fall out of Mays mouth and even Fayes and thats just met with “‘Well thats just how they are/ you dont understand their trauma” I’m sorry if you felt I was rude, but this is ridiculous.Faye/May are often crude. It doesn't matter why so, they are. There's a long precedent there. Were you to just meet them, you might be taken aback the first time, and maybe the next few times, too, unless you weren't told that that happens often. It's not an excuse---it's a warning to newcomers, to save them the trouble of dealing with that over an over until they've had enough of it and leave, maybe making a scene that others, too, might have to deal with. (Please point us to the Questionable Content pages that cite `past trauma' to excuse bad behaviuor.)
Elliot doesn't know, he knows that Clinton told him that Brun said that,.. From Elliot's perspective, this could be seen as psychological manipulation.Yeah he said a rudeish thing but Meaner and less kind intending things fall out of Mays mouth and even Fayes and thats just met with “‘Well thats just how they are/ you dont understand their trauma” I’m sorry if you felt I was rude, but this is ridiculous.Faye/May are often crude. It doesn't matter why so, they are. There's a long precedent there. Were you to just meet them, you might be taken aback the first time, and maybe the next few times, too, unless you weren't told that that happens often. It's not an excuse---it's a warning to newcomers, to save them the trouble of dealing with that over an over until they've had enough of it and leave, maybe making a scene that others, too, might have to deal with. (Please point us to the Questionable Content pages that cite `past trauma' to excuse bad behaviuor.)
Clinton is obviously moved after that interaction with Brun, but we don't know whether he's much upset, much relieved, or unsure---though he seems sure that he is, whatever it is.
You speak as though Clinton is the only one in the comic that gets slammed, and that Faye and May do not.
I assure you that this is not so.
You speak as though Clinton is the only one in the comic that gets slammed, and that Faye and May do not.
I assure you that this is not so.
Faye and May( Hey!) Often get people defending their character on the grounds of “ Thats how they are/ They mean well” But no such grace typically gets extended to Clinton, its always “ Goddamn Clinton and his stupid damn mouth ruining everything by being terrible”
I'm not seeing any heart-break, or sadness, or maliciousness... just a lightweight drinker running his mouth off.
(In Vino Veritas, and all that)
Honestly, until I saw the title, and then the comments here, I thought Clinton was doing okay/being kind, but apparently not.
The comics never excuse it, the readers typically do, I’m just annoyed that whenever Clinton flubs, people are quick to slam him hard and without mercy (and not in a fun way)I see it too often in the world---these forums included---that it's absence from the comic would have my compliments to God. I think one of the issues is that we don't see any underlying issues with Clinton, only behaviour, so that's what we criticize, though it would be more effective to merely note the behaviour, and watch for other clues as they might arise---to wait until there's enough data to say something deeper about why, maybe, those behaviours are thus. The second biggest problem I see with Clinton's behaviour in row 3 frame 2, is that he's gesticulating with a glass of beer. Last time, some splashed on a big-guy's shirt, who threatened corporal violence in response. It's a nice detail, actually, because (d) he's kinda doing the same thing---emotionally---to Elliot, and (r) it reminds us that Elliot already displayed to Clinton what Yaaaaaaaay Newfriend proposed to pose for.
And Elliot? Well.. his face in that last frame looks to me like a "You're half a pint from seeing the doorway from a horizontal plane!"Well, I think there's some verity to the idea that Elliot's immediate reaction is about finding out that a person he's attracted to is not attracted to him---Clinton reacted similarly---but we'll see if it sticks with him. As for Clinton's being upset about Brun expressing (which may be, as earlier noted, Brun's mistaking something related---a lack of sexual-fantastic pleasure---as) unattraction to Clinton, we have no indication that it stuck with him past that first reaction: he could well be simply relieved. I agree that the speculation has focused too much on that possibility.
So, firstly, he has implied strongly that he would have dumped Elliot on the spot and left with Brun if she'd returned his feelings.Nuh-uh!---I mean *clears throat* that's not necessarily what would have happened. It's definitely high-grade asshattery---mentioning what may be construed, especially by someone as self-insecure as Elliot, as an attempt to `steal' the other's crush---but I think this could be further set-up for the polycule. I don't think he's making fun of Elliot's attraction, but not recognizing, in that state of mind, that maybe Elliot won't feel the same way about it.
The comics never excuse it, the readers typically do, I’m just annoyed that whenever Clinton flubs people are quick to slam him hard and without mercy( and not in a fun way)
No, he needed to stop at least five minutes ago.
I genuinely read this page as Clinton being a socially awkward dude who's getting drunk because he just got shot down.
Of course it's still a stupid thing to do but I'm not reading any malice into it. I'd actually take him at face value with his explanation of 'well, too bad but at least now you know.'
Intentions are not magic. Lack of malice doesn't mean lack of hurting others.
I genuinely read this page as Clinton being a socially awkward dude who's getting drunk because he just got shot down.
Of course it's still a stupid thing to do but I'm not reading any malice into it. I'd actually take him at face value with his explanation of 'well, too bad but at least now you know.'
Intentions are not magic. Lack of malice doesn't mean lack of hurting others.
I think the three of us are essentially in agreement; consider Thrillho's phrase contrapositively: hurting other's doesn't imply malice. Of course, I consider others' intentions magic: what I'll never experience, with putative effects, based on traditions of local historical importance.Intentions are not magic. Lack of malice doesn't mean lack of hurting others.True, but as a rule I'm a lot more lenient towards people who seem to be suffering from a bad case of foot down their throat.
And we have another comic.
And Clinton and Elliot are doomed to fail because neither one of them knows how to have a conversation about their goddamned feelings.
In Elliot's defense, now is NOT the time to have an in-depth discussion about his feelings, since:True...
a. he is working
b. he needs some space to process this
c. Clinton is drunk
I was never quite as pissed off at Corpse Witch as I now am at Clinton, which I suppose says a lot about how I'm reading this story.
I had to look up that arc again. I'd forgotten who Corpse Witch was, despite remembering the "partitioned memories" plot.
Corpse Witch was a cartoon villain. What she did amounted to slavery enforced by blackmail, and objectively far, far worse. But it was hard to seriously hate her because she was so 2 dimensional, and we never liked her in the first place.
Clinton, on the other hand, is a full-fledged character who has generally been sympathetic. He's a lot more real to us than Corpse Witch.
I was never quite as pissed off at Corpse Witch as I now am at Clinton, which I suppose says a lot about how I'm reading this story.
I had to look up that arc again. I'd forgotten who Corpse Witch was, despite remembering the "partitioned memories" plot.
Corpse Witch was a cartoon villain. What she did amounted to slavery enforced by blackmail, and objectively far, far worse. But it was hard to seriously hate her because she was so 2 dimensional, and we never liked her in the first place.
Clinton, on the other hand, is a full-fledged character who has generally been sympathetic. He's a lot more real to us than Corpse Witch.
That depends on if you've ever met anyone like corpse witch IRL. A horribly selfish, endlessly manipulative, conniving, lying, sociopath only out for their own gain and any opportunity to screw some else over.
I'm hoping that, perhaps with a gentle push from his mom or a less gentle kick from his sister, Clinton will realize how shitty what he did was and apologize to Elliot. After all, he is usually a pretty nice guy and wouldn't want to hurt Elliot, but he's also a pretty clueless guy sometimes. And that when he apologizes to Elliot, he makes it clear that it wasn't "oh if she'd said she was attracted to me I'd have forgotten all about you, I just saw an opportunity to know for sure what options we had and took it." Elliot's a nice guy too, and as we saw from how he handled Renee's challenge to "ask them out next time you see one of them", well... I'll let Elliot speak for himself. "I handled that in pretty much the stupidest way possible!" He knows what it's like to be unsure of himself and therefore make a really boneheaded mistake.
If these two do end up getting together, which I'm still hoping for, they're both going to need a lot of patience and forgiveness with each other and with themselves.
I've been reading this thread with growing puzzlement.You're not the only one. I also didn't see any heartbreak or maliciousness in Clinton's behaviour. Running his mouth off as a lightweight drunk - definitely. Unintentionally hurting Elliot's feelings - yep that too.
I'm just NOT seeing the same reactions in Clinton's actions that most other's seem to be seeing!
I'm not seeing any heart-break, or sadness, or maliciousness... just a lightweight drinker running his mouth off.
(In Vino Veritas, and all that)
And Elliot? Well.. his face in that last frame looks to me like a "You're half a pint from seeing the doorway from a horizontal plane!"
[size=78%]Unrelated - is it just me or has the site & these forums been down a lot more often than usual recently[/size]
And we have another comic.
And Clinton and Elliot are doomed to fail because neither one of them knows how to have a conversation about their goddamned feelings.
Clinton is not a nice guy
Clinton is a Nice Guy.
He turns immediately toxic and abusive the moment he doesn’t get his way. He is entitled, and an asshole.
If anyone ends up in a relationship with him, I will be genuinely worried about their safety and mental health going forward.
I've been scrolling through this thread. Man, opinions go from "Well, he's a bit drunk" to "Oh, yeah, he's showing his asshole side I've KNOWN to be there since the beginning".
Clinton is an absolute dork. I wouldn't say socially inept, but highly inexperienced. He got into a situation, especially emotionally, he never thought himself to be, so he's WAAAAY out of his comfort zone here, even if he doesn't realise.
Fuelled by being in a different mindest, and some Liquid Courage, he asked Brun the question he already knew would come up eventually. Which is fine. He needed to do that for his own sake. Asking Brun whether she was attracted to someone else was pure curiosity, and spur of the moment. If Brun wouldn't have been comfortable with that question, she could have chosen to not answer it. But she did.
Clinton chugging a beer to process stuff definetly was not a good idea. Telling Elliot Brun was not interested in Clinton was maybe weird timing, but still OK (IMHO at least). That tells Elliot Clinton is in no rush for a decision, and they can take it slow.
Telling Elliot Brun is currently not interested in anyone, and therefore not interested in Elliot as well, was definetly a dick move. That is entirely on Clinton. I give him the benefit of doubt (of being malicious), but I think there will be consequences. And all y'all who say Clinton is an a-hole for doing this, let me tell you: he is not. Not for the first "offense" of that kind. You can bash him if he can't handle the consequences. But now it's too early for that.
Spoilt white guys don’t get second chances.
He is not worth defending.
Spoilt white guys don’t get second chances.
He is not worth defending.
Spoilt white guys don’t get second chances.
He is not worth defending.
Spoilt white guys don’t get second chances.
He is not worth defending.
Spoilt white guys don’t get second chances.
He is not worth defending.
I agree that nobody likes spoilt brats. The rest of this post just makes me think you are one. But yeah, well, that's just like... my opinion, man.
And that's all I'm going to say about that.
Spoilt white guys don’t get second chances.
He is not worth defending.
I agree that nobody likes spoilt brats. The rest of this post just makes me think you are one. But yeah, well, that's just like... my opinion, man.
And that's all I'm going to say about that.
No, I’d say you were bang on the money. I don’t think I deserve second chances either. I’m definitely a spoilt white guy, so I’ll call that out when I see it.
You get one chance to be a decent human being. I wasted mine, Clinton has wasted his. There is no coming back from that. Other people might forgive you for their own mental health, but you should *never* forget or forgive yourself.
No, I’d say you were bang on the money. I don’t think I deserve second chances either. I’m definitely a spoilt white guy, so I’ll call that out when I see it.
You get one chance to be a decent human being. I wasted mine, Clinton has wasted his. There is no coming back from that. Other people might forgive you for their own mental health, but you should *never* forget or forgive yourself.
Has it ever occurred in canon that Clinton knows of Eliot's attraction to Brun?
I think the reason I don’t post as much as I used to is my Patreon subscription. As soon as I read the latest strip Wednesday night I knew this board would get toxic very quickly. After reading through the last page my suspicions are confirmed.
...
I'm expecting two possible outcomes right now:
1. Clinton has a drunken hook-up with an unexpected 'spoiler' character ...
I think the reason I don’t post as much as I used to is my Patreon subscription. As soon as I read the latest strip Wednesday night I knew this board would get toxic very quickly. After reading through the last page my suspicions are confirmed.
Clinton reminds me a lot of myself sometimes, at a younger age at least - and I was generally a nice guy, I was generally compassionate, but a lot of that came from shyness and anxiety and no desire to assert dominance. Drinking, even a few drinks, can remove the natural barriers of anxiety and worry and shyness and fill you with confidence, and if you are untutored in how to use something as tremendously powerful as 'feeling confident' then you can end up being like Clinton is here. Doesn't have to actually be drunk. Just the edges sanded off.
[sigh] It'll be sad if the first m/m relationship in QC is just an awkward fizzle. Such potential, such disappointment. [crosses fingers]
[sigh] It'll be sad if the first m/m relationship in QC is just an awkward fizzle. Such potential, such disappointment. [crosses fingers]
It's not the first M/M relationship in the QC-verse, since we already saw Marten's dad get married to Maurice.
I highly doubt that this is the end for any romance between Elliot and Clinton. Jeph is very big on making his characters grow and evolve, so I can see a lot of talking and discussion happening with those two in the future.
Hi, I'm new! :clairedoge:
I mean, not that new. I come on here periodically for clarification as to what's going on with the comic, so I guess I'm a un-lurked lurker. This time, it's because I didn't understand the apprehensiveness in Elliot's demeanor when Clinton said what he did about Brun and Elliot. I don't consider myself to be socially awkward either, though I make mistakes like any other person. I think I get it now, but I still don't think I'm getting the whole picture.
At first I thought the fact that Clinton discussed this with Brun while on a (not) date with Elliot was the problem (I know it's what would've stopped me from bringing it up) but it didn't seem like Elliot was phased by that part of it. Now I think the main issue was Clinton's obtuseness with discussing the lack of attraction. Follow that up with Clinton saying "at least you know!" when the whole issue with the Elliot/Clinton ship is that Elliot doesn't know how Clinton feels. Though to be fair, Clinton doesn't know how Clinton feels yet. Clinton's blasé attitude with Elliot about knowing where you stand with someone is clearly a mistake. I just don't know how much of one.
This why I broke my lurking. Everyone on here seems to be of the opinion that Clinton has hurt Elliot. I don't think I'm of that opinion. All the thoughts on here have helped me understand, but I don't think I've come to the same conclusions. Elliot's face in the last panel of 4384 may be hurt, as in "How could you say this knowing that I don't know how YOU feel about me?" But I also see it possibly being his personal angst, as in "Craaaap, am I going to have to ask him flat out if he thinks I'm attractive?". I'd love to hear what y'all think of this. And if you think I'm missing something about how Elliot's hurt, I'd love a better explanation. Preferably one that comes in the form of what Elliot should say to Clinton to make him understand how he hurt him.
His actions (both prior and post drinks) have been pretty crass.
His actions (both prior and post drinks) have been pretty crass.
How were his actions prior to drinking crass? And I really wanted to figure out why what he said after was crass. If it's just the one thing I mentioned, it's self absorbed but not completely awful. Just socially awkward in the standard Clinton way.
People should debate each other about the merits of each other's opinions. It leads to learning experiences.
Not forgiving myself---certainly not forgetting---is one of the ways I avoid repeating past mistakes. i also don't forgive others---it's enough to simply not cling to some harm they caused, after everything's settled---but I do sometimes forget; rather, I don't recall some things often enough to have them ready in my mind each time I'm considering the transgressor, but if I ever try something serious with them, I'm sure to go over all those things, even the little things. Perhaps if you have a tendency to focus too much on little problems, or to think of little problems as big problems, then it might be better for you to forget about it or make it out like it has no effect, which is dishonest, but towards truth.Other people might forgive you for their own mental health, but you should *never* forget or forgive yourself.forgiving yourself is an important component to personal growth.
I also disagree with the sentiment that Clinton is an asshole here- he is not intentionally trying to hurt or manipulate Eliot.I think this is the subtle distinction between asshole and asshat: An asshole is intentionally. An asshat is negligently.
and if you are untutored in how to use something as tremendously powerful as 'feeling confident' then you can end up being like Clinton is here. Doesn't have to actually be drunk. Just the edges sanded off.That's actually one reason that I don't really understand the ``liquid-confidence''-type epithets for alcohol. When drunk, I'm less confident, more reluctant to act. Maybe I'm too aware of it's potential disinhibitivity (ow, my ``i''s)
It's a problem because she's at work. Hitting on someone while they're at work can put them in a really bad position. If they feel uncomfortable or threatened, they can't leave. And they're generally being paid to be nice to you so they can't speak frankly about their feelings. He shouldn't have put her on the spot while at work.I doubt Brun'd ever be insincere, and not all employers care about insincere pleasantries. Coffee of Doom, for example, don't.
It'll be sad if the first m/m relationship in QC is just an awkward fizzle. Such potential, such disappointment.I know you might be emotionally invested in this one, but if it doesn't work out, I'm sure there'll be an even better one later on.
[size=78%]Unrelated - is it just me or has the site & these forums been down a lot more often than usual recently[/size]
Down, how?
I've been seeing the same thing in the U.S., so either it's multiple locations, or more likely, it's not regional.[size=78%]Unrelated - is it just me or has the site & these forums been down a lot more often than usual recently[/size]
Down, how?
Down as in Cloudflare telling you its connection to the QC server is fubared.
And yes, they have.
Edit: Could be a regional thing - the message was from Cloudflare Frankfurt, which is co-located with the DE-CIX hub that connects much of continental Europe & beyond with the US. I don't recall whether DE-CIX is downstream from the respective transatlantic hub in the UK, or whether the two have separate transatlantic connections - and Iirc, the Europeans on the mod-team are in the UK & Ireland, so depending on the location of the problem, they might not even have noticed. All of the above seriously under-informed speculation, mind you.
<snip>I've been seeing the same thing in the U.S., so either it's multiple locations, or more likely, it's not regional.
More on topic, I just want to say Dandi Andi is right and brave to say it.
"Forgiveness means letting go of the hope for a better past".That's kind of the idea behind "forgive but don't forget."
Not forgiving myself---certainly not forgetting---is one of the ways I avoid repeating past mistakes.
That ties back to an interesting sermon I heard a few years ago on the matter, forgive them but hold them accountable."Forgiveness means letting go of the hope for a better past".That's kind of the idea behind "forgive but don't forget."
You make some good and valid points.Well, hopefully Jeph is doing research on that matter to try and portray it accurately. As I understand it, a number of long running webcomics have had some nasty falls from grace over the mishandling of subject matters or the author either going through personal issues or getting dragged into extremist views of some variety. So I can see why Jeph might be tiptoeing around that aspect of Claire and Marten's relationship.
I'd like to see some storylines with Marten and Claire dealing with some of the realities of a trans relationship, it's got the potential for some interesting storylines but it seems like the author doesn't want to go there which is fair enough as it's his comic but if you don't want to go there then why bother bringing it up as it just makes it seem like it's another box to be checked
You make some good and valid points.
I'd like to see some storylines with Marten and Claire dealing with some of the realities of a trans relationship, it's got the potential for some interesting storylines but it seems like the author doesn't want to go there which is fair enough as it's his comic but if you don't want to go there then why bother bringing it up as it just makes it seem like it's another box to be checked
Clinton is not a nice guy
Clinton is a Nice Guy.
He turns immediately toxic and abusive the moment he doesn’t get his way. He is entitled, and an asshole.
If anyone ends up in a relationship with him, I will be genuinely worried about their safety and mental health going forward.
Honestly, I think that's a really extreme and unfair take. I don't think any of this is intentional, which doesn't change the fact that it's hurtful behavior, but it sure as hell isn't abusive or entitled. I think some people are filtering it through the lens of their own experiences with Far Worse people, and thinking it applies to Clinton. Who, frankly, is just an idiot, but hardly the type to be malicious. His 'meddling' here isn't even as bad as Claire's has been.
He's drunk, and socially inept. Neither of those are excuses for hurtful behavior, but they're factors to keep in mind, especially with how frequently alcohol consumption can result in lapses in judgement. He's certainly not a threat to anyone's safety, and canceling him over a flub like this, no matter how cringeworthy, is definitely excessive, in my view.
The idea that trans characters can only exist to fulfill some narrative function or to make a point directly related to them not being cis is deeply and intensely frustrating. Trans people are allowed to exist just as themselves. No one ever insists that a cis character has to have their cishet status be a storypoint, so why are trans characters held to that expectation? Why are they allowed to just be?
I kinda agree with this; but on the other hand, I remarked recently that this pairing seemed inevitable, and I have not really changed my mind this week.
I mean, whither Clinton if this ship is torpedoed? How long have we been strung along with this Clinton/Elliot/Brun triangle? A couple of years?
During that time, it's been very clear that Jeph is only interested in portraying queer relationships and queer or AI storylines. So what will happen if Clinton decides he's not interested in guys after all? I can't think where Jeph would take an awkward white straight boy from there.
Clinton's journey has been pretty uneven. He started as a foil to Hannelore, quickly became a supporting actor to Claire's journey (who, like other QC characters who more recently have landed in a relationship, has been pretty well sidelined). Then became creepy (https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2068) again. Then became confident and heroic in what seemed to be the most heavy-handed on-the-nose bit of writing in the history of QC, not to put too fine a point on it (and which I now can't locate to save my life). And now he's back to being socially inept, any progress that he seemed to make in considering the welfare of someone other than himself seems to have been thrown out.
I wonder what lies in the future for QC. I wish Jeph would stop abandoning characters as soon as they make relationships - it's terribly self-limiting. I know I harp on this - sorry. Where are the Marten/Claire stories? Dora/Tai? Even Bubbles/Faye strips have been thin on the ground. And the May storyline, the one story that wasn't written to indulge the shippers, has magically resolved itself without May really having done much to earn it (other than finally accept charity, which I didn't find to be super satisfying because her hand was more or less forced - she's very much been a passive protagonist in that storyline).
There's always Hannelore's relationship with her mother, I guess - maybe that story will get back off the ground, who knows. But again, since it's clear that Hanners isn't interested in relationships, it seems inevitable she will remain on the sidelines as well.
And then there's also Roko's dissociative episodes, hanging there waiting for resolution (or not).
But I suspect that these are addressed at all, they will simply magically be resolved at some point like all the other interesting storylines we've seen.
*sigh*
especially after she indicated she needed to get back to work.I think this is the valid point. It's not about the work, but about there being other things to do. But Clinton didn't demand. Brun could've refused or deferred.
treating this exploratory outting as a checkbox with steps to speed through [...] less about Brun or Elliot than about Clinton crossing his Ts and dotting his Is.You said it yourself, Brun's hurrying back to work. And Clinton's hurrying to the toilet. There's not much time for much more. He could've waited for when there's more time---but what's wrong with quick? Ask the question, get an answer; then consider it at his own pace---or not get the answer: let them consider it at their own pace, answering a next time.
immediately divulges what should be a personalYeah. Terrible. Too bad it happens so often. At least Clinton's inconfidence is patent.
Forgiveness is the committment to not request restoration. It helps cease myopic pressure to restore earlier than effective, but, especially intrapersonally, such pressure with me is naught, so it'd only convolute. It's about keeping the books strait, so to speak. Balancing said `books' neatly requires correcting the root error, then tidying it's instances---like repaying interest after the principal's extinguished.Not forgiving myself---certainly not forgetting---is one of the ways I avoid repeating past mistakes.We must have very different understandings of what self-forgiveness is, because I don't see how it is possible to truly learn from one's past mistakes without it.
any progress that he seemed to make in considering the welfare of someone other than himself seems to have been thrown out.Well.. no. It's coming in phases. First: naught; then intense work towards, then rest---seeming regression---focus on other things, until motive returns,,---is how I learn; like a sum of sine and hyperbola.
This as pairing never worked for me, it just smacked of the author wanting to check another box.
Elliot is a low tech guy (bread making, sports, working out) and Clinton is all about AIs, not (presumably) into fitness or sports so they have nothing in common, Clinton hadn't even had any gay thoughts up until now (or has he and I missed it?)
The only way this seems plausible is that Elliot and Clinton are both so lonely and desperate they'll get off with anyone that'll have them
I actually think that while Marten/Dora wasn't a stable relationship, it was one of the more interesting and realistic ones. This is all I will say on that matter to avoid another Dorapocalypse.
The other couples are almost fantasy in their stability. Fights are rare, minor, and easily and quickly resolved. While I don't want to see any catastrophic breakups, it would certainly add a little intrigue to the comic if there were a bigger dispute.
I actually think that while Marten/Dora wasn't a stable relationship, it was one of the more interesting and realistic ones. This is all I will say on that matter to avoid another Dorapocalypse.
The other couples are almost fantasy in their stability. Fights are rare, minor, and easily and quickly resolved. While I don't want to see any catastrophic breakups, it would certainly add a little intrigue to the comic if there were a bigger dispute.
What meant you by truly learn?
I blame Hollywood. There are so few stable/healthy relationships in movies and so SO many examples of sequels where the pair that get together in tbe first movie get broken up off screen just so they can retread the romantic subplot. Usually much to the detriment of the narrative.
Are there any examples other than The Mummy and The Mummy Returns where that doesn't happen?
For me, it's the lack of those squabbles and disagreements that make it unrealistic. Two for Dora/Tai (in over two thousand strips), one for Marten/Claire, none for Faye/Bubbles, one for Steve/Cosette (I don't really count them as a major pairing), one for Dale/Marigold. I have citations if you want them. The couples in QC agree on pretty much everything.I blame Hollywood. There are so few stable/healthy relationships in movies and so SO many examples of sequels where the pair that get together in tbe first movie get broken up off screen just so they can retread the romantic subplot. Usually much to the detriment of the narrative.
Are there any examples other than The Mummy and The Mummy Returns where that doesn't happen?
That is pretty much what I see in my social circle as well. People get into a relationship and it just... comes along. Sure, there are some squabbles and disagreements here and there, but for the most part things tend to be quite harmonious. Why does it have to be difficult to be real?
To be fair, I have literally zero relationship experience, so I'm not exactly an expert on this. Also, regardless of what happens on this front, the comic is still addictively fantastic and I'll read it anyway.
That is a good point. Then again, 'minor relationship squabbles' do not make for very entertaining comics, which might be one reason why Jeph doesn't portray them? That, and the sheer amount of storylines he has going on:
- Dora/Tai wedding
- Claire's jobhunting
- May's new chassis
- Roko's dissociative episodes
- Clinton/Elliot/Brun's romantic shenanigans
- and maybe some more that I can't think off right now
Perhaps we have different conceptions of accountability, forgiveness---those mine are opposite the other: self-forgiveness, as I understand it, is the giving-up, the refusal to do better---but neither case is necessarily from considering oneself bad: one might simply acknowledge a challenge as too difficult, or with better possibilities available---for such cases, I defer judgement 'til judgement day: for now---in whatever `now' they be---they're simply on account, awaiting when correction may more effective be.What meant you by truly learn?Great question.
To truly learn from your mistakes is to understand yourself well enough to know why it happened and what you need to do to be a better person. That kind of necessary work is an act of self love. If you can't forgive yourself, then lack that fundamental prerequisite.
If you believe you did wrong because you're a bad person, then of course you won't be able to forgive yourself. If instead you focus on the behaviour, then you can believe that are able to change your behaviour in the future. To fail to forgive yourself is to believe that you can't do better, so of course you won't. Simply telling yourself you're a bad person isn't understanding yourself, and it's not truly learning from your mistakes.
Accountability isn't refusal to forgive yourself. Accountability is work.
Hohoooo.... Minor relationship squabbles. Oh no. If you all believe that is all that happens when you settle down you have been blessed or lack experience.Both, in my case. I've only had one relationship in my life, and it's still on-going. In a year's time I will have been involved with my husband for half my life. So yes, in many ways I am inexperienced.
Even good relationships have fireworks—unless the two people getting together are magically perfectly well adjusted and mature from well-adjusted mature parents, siblings. Oh nooo. Most people are fabulous messes—and crazy childhoods/family dynamics can make dating look like a walk in the park compared to cohabitating or marrying.
Perhaps we have different conceptions of accountability, forgiveness---those mine are opposite the other: self-forgiveness, as I understand it, is the giving-up, the refusal to do better---but neither case is necessarily from considering oneself bad: one might simply acknowledge a challenge as too difficult, or with better possibilities available---for such cases, I defer judgement 'til judgement day: for now---in whatever `now' they be---they're simply on account, awaiting when correction may more effective be.
And I'm not sure how self-love enters it---self-understanding, sure, and acceptance: what I am, how I am,, all my behaviours---but I not need love myself to know I can, how, to do better. I need only examine, adjust myself, behaviour, to better.
Hohoooo.... Minor relationship squabbles. Oh no. If you all believe that is all that happens when you settle down you have been blessed or lack experience.Both, in my case. I've only had one relationship in my life, and it's still on-going. In a year's time I will have been involved with my husband for half my life. So yes, in many ways I am inexperienced.
Even good relationships have fireworks—unless the two people getting together are magically perfectly well adjusted and mature from well-adjusted mature parents, siblings. Oh nooo. Most people are fabulous messes—and crazy childhoods/family dynamics can make dating look like a walk in the park compared to cohabitating or marrying.
Doing the work to become a better person is self-love.Of all the meanings of---and overused it is, the word---``love,'' an endeavour as dry error correction, scarcely would, if ever, come to mind.
I forgot about them! We don't really get to see their relationship like Claire and Marten or Bubs and Faye, though; I definitely don't think of them as being part of the main crew.[sigh] It'll be sad if the first m/m relationship in QC is just an awkward fizzle. Such potential, such disappointment. [crosses fingers]
It's not the first M/M relationship in the QC-verse, since we already saw Marten's dad get married to Maurice.
I highly doubt that this is the end for any romance between Elliot and Clinton. Jeph is very big on making his characters grow and evolve, so I can see a lot of talking and discussion happening with those two in the future.Clinton has left with very positive feelings about the interaction with Elliot, and Elliot has some issues with it, so I can see this being a ripe set up for a healthy discussion and resolution leading to a first date [more finger-crossing]. The dynamic between the two of them will be different no matter what events ensue following this encounter. If it ends up being uncomfortable, we get realistic interpersonal drama plotlines; if it ends up being REALLY comfortable, we get an E/C date plotline. Win/Win!
I blame Hollywood. There are so few stable/healthy relationships in movies and so SO many examples of sequels where the pair that get together in tbe first movie get broken up off screen just so they can retread the romantic subplot. Usually much to the detriment of the narrative.
Are there any examples other than The Mummy and The Mummy Returns where that doesn't happen?
[...] I've only had one relationship in my life, and it's still on-going. [...]I AM SO ENVIOUS !!! :-\
Doing the work to become a better person is self-love.Of all the meanings of---and overused it is, the word---``love,'' an endeavour as dry error correction, scarcely would, if ever, come to mind.
But this is definitely done often, and the worst example for this is actually Futurama. Many times they start a Fry and Leela romance in one episode only to have it completely wiped from everyones memory in the next episode, with no explanation whatsoever. Thats frankly very annoying.Oh whow drat - I missed an important "IMHO" somewhere in there.
I blame Hollywood. There are so few stable/healthy relationships in movies and so SO many examples of sequels where the pair that get together in tbe first movie get broken up off screen just so they can retread the romantic subplot. Usually much to the detriment of the narrative.
Are there any examples other than The Mummy and The Mummy Returns where that doesn't happen?
Why, The Matrix. Though, as we all know, there was only one movie. (https://xkcd.com/566/)
Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure.
Star Wars.
Shrek.
Theres not many movies which have followups in the first place ... and if they do, they often dont have such romances in the first place. On Terminator, the man is killed before the end, and the second movie has no romance. Alien, first one has no romance, second and third one the man gets killed between movies. Bourne, the romance gets killed early in the second movie.
But this is definitely done often, and the worst example for this is actually Futurama. Many times they start a Fry and Leela romance in one episode only to have it completely wiped from everyones memory in the next episode, with no explanation whatsoever. Thats frankly very annoying.[...] I've only had one relationship in my life, and it's still on-going. [...]I AM SO ENVIOUS !!! :-\
What Is Bubbles' favorite song by Toto?I'll nominate "Don't Stop Me Now".
I always thought that was by Queen.It was and is.
About Faye and Bubbles, a question occurred to me today:
What Is Bubbles' favorite song by Toto?